Justin Williams Is Reinventing Cycling

Out of 743 riders on the World Tour, the highest tier of professional road cycling, only 5 are black. Today’s guest is devoted to changing that. I wouldn’t bet against him. Dubbed ‘the most important bike racer you don’t know’, Justin Williams is an 11-time U. S. National Champion and 14-time California State Road and Track Champion. A rare sprinting talent from the get go, Justin was already crushing criteriums across the state as a teen en route to becoming the Jr. Track National Champ and a member of the U. S. National Team. In 2009 he joined the coveted Trek Livestrong U23 Dev Team. A launchpad to the majors, Justin’s dream of competing on the World Tour was becoming real. However, despite Justin’s skyward trajectory and unbound potential, he quickly became disillusioned with the elitist aspect of the sport. Then he did the unthinkable: he quit. Departing Europe for home, he enrolled in college. Lived a civilian life. And let his bike collect cobwebs. For Justin, it seemed, cycling was over. However, Justin’s younger brother Cory — then making his own cycling waves — had other plans, enticing Justin’s return to the sport through fixie racing culture. Revitalized by this dynamic community, Justin would soon discover renewed purpose on the bike. As an athlete who still had races to win. And ultimately as an advocate on a mission to redefine the sport he loves. Thus was born Legion of Los Angeles: an independent elite cycling team dedicated to increasing diversity & encouraging inclusion in the industry. Translation: a launchpad for badass racers of varying ethnicities and backgrounds who don’t necessarily fit the status quo of the current whitewashed cycling program. Today we explore Justin’s extraordinary story — from his experience growing up in Los Angeles to immigrant parents through his blossoming love affair with the bike. We dissect the sport of cycling and the industry that supports it. What’s great about it. What must change. And how Legion is leading the way by smashing paradigms and setting a new standard when it comes to supporting athletes and promoting inclusivity. Wise beyond his years, Justin is passion in motion. A cycling hero. The embodiment of persistence. And a powerful reminder that what is most important about sport has nothing to do with podiums. Instead, it’s about the journey towards self-actualization. It’s about sharing experience. And above all, the impact you leave on others. The visually inclined can watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Equal parts important and entertaining, it was an honor to host this enlightening exchange with an athlete so devoted to positive change. Mad respect. P. S. Thanks Alonso Tal for permission to use your epic action images of Justin. Also, Knox Robinson may or may not have dropped by. Just sayin’. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

  Eating well rarely falls apart because of one big failure. It's the daily question that wears you down. Like, what am I actually gonna make tonight? What's in the fridge? And it's exactly why we built the Plant Power Meal Planner. It's a personalized, plant-based meal planning program that matches you with recipes based on your taste, your allergies, your cooking skills, and how much time you actually have. You build, through this program, a balanced, nutrient-dense plan for your entire household in a few minutes. Then it generates a grocery list for you with one click that plugs right into our delivery partners. All the recipes in the program are built by dietitians with culinary training. Plus, you get your own food coach to help you problem-solve along the way.

• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  For me, coming from South Central, getting into cycling and being introduced to all of these people from different backgrounds and professional industries, it opened my mind up to what was possible. For me, getting more kids of color into the sport where they can just have that understanding and opening of perspective and having their minds kind of like, you know, you are more than what the statistics say you are. You know, I grew up in a place where we didn't have the best education system. We didn't have a lot of inspiration to be more than what you saw people being successful in the hood doing, which was like drug dealing or hustling or whatever.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  So to get into this sport where there's doctors, there's lawyers, there's people that do things like, that you never even thought were jobs, like filmmaking, a set design, and all this other stuff, and to be able to have access to just those conversations is incredible. It completely changed what I wanted out of life. Even just that, putting that in In front of some kids, man, that could like be the difference between, you know, them ending up in jail or them ending up with a marketing career and working at a brand like Specialized. And like, I think that's extremely important outside. Everybody's not going to be a bike racer. Everyone's not going to get it. But that doesn't mean that the industry of cycling isn't rich in opportunity.

• 2:31Rich Roll?

  That's Justin Williams, and this is episode 563 of the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:47Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, bipedal bicycle pedaling humanoids. It is I, Rich Roll. Welcome to the podcast. Before we get into it, a little housekeeping. First off, I wanted to announce that we recently created a brand new YouTube channel that's dedicated solely to short clips from the podcast. So every single day, we are now posting brief four to 10 minute excerpts from both current and past guests. So if you're into that kind of thing, it's a pretty great way to get a visual taste for each guest and check it out. I'll put a link in the show notes, or you can simply search Rich Roll Podcast Clips on YouTube.

• 3:29Rich Roll?

  Second, the holiday season is now officially upon us. And along with that comes this search that we all go on for unique and awesome gifts. So in addition to suggesting my new book, Voicing Change, might I also suggest, because it's so important now more than ever that we all keep our nutrition in check, including our loved ones, our Plant Power Meal Planner. Here's the thing, you're stuck at home, they're stuck at home. You want to help them eat, right? You want to help them learn how to cook healthy. So why not use this weird time to actually help them learn how to cook, to up their recipe game? I'm offering an opportunity to do just that by virtue of gift cards and gifts

• 4:13Rich Roll?

  that will really help positively impact them. The Meal Planner is our digital platform that will hold their hand through the preparation of customized, super nutritious, plant-based recipes from our library of thousands, and also have all the groceries for those recipes automatically delivered directly to their door. Right now, through December 25th, we're running a special holiday discount. Gift cards for annual memberships are now just $79. $20 off our normal annual fee. It's a great stocking stuffer. It's perfect for last-minute shoppers as it's instantly available. No promo code necessary. So to learn more and grab your gift card today, click Meal Planner on the homepage

• 4:55Rich Roll?

  menu at richroll.com or go directly to meals.richroll.com. Okay. Today's guest has been called "The Most Important Bike Racer You Don't Know." Dubbed the eighth most influential person in the sport, he's a guy who walked away from the World Tour early in his career to carve his own path and has matured into not only an 11-time national champion, but more importantly, the founder and manager of Legion of Los Angeles, which is this very cool cycling team here in LA that serves as a critical voice for inclusion and representation in a sport that I think is fair to say is in

• 5:39Rich Roll?

  dire need of reinvention and reimagination. His name is Justin Williams. He's super cool. His story is incredibly powerful. It's instructive, and it's all coming up in a couple secs. But first.

• 6:03Rich Roll?

  Okay. For a little context to today's episode, let's have a little dose of reality. Out of 743 riders on the World Tour, which is the highest tier of professional road cycling, only five riders are black. And out of the 176 cyclists in the recent Tour de France, only one was black. One guy, Kevin Reza. That, to be frank, is bullshit. And it's an institutional paradigm in the cycling industry that Justin Williams is hell-bent on breaking.

• 6:46Rich Roll?

  With 11 US national championships and 14 California state road and track championships to his name, cycling is truly in Justin's blood.

• 6:55Rich Roll?

  At a young age, he showed a rare aptitude as a sprinter, crushing crits throughout the state as a teenager, and eventually becoming the junior track national champion and a member of the national team. In 2009, he joined Trek Livestrong U23, their dev team, racing with world famous pros like Ben King and Alex Dousset. But despite his success and his unbound potential, the obvious next stop was the world tour. But instead, Justin became disillusioned with the elitist aspect of the sport. He quit the team, he

• 7:34Rich Roll?

  went home, he enrolled in college. For Justin, cycling, it seemed, was over. But it was his younger brother Cory, also making cycling waves in local races at the time, who ultimately lured Justin back into the sport through fixy racing culture. Justin found himself newly energized and also discovering this renewed meaning and purpose on the bike as an athlete who still had races to win, of course, but also as an advocate on a mission to redefine the sport. Thus was born Legion of Los Angeles, an independent elite cycling team that Justin

• 8:15Rich Roll?

  founded, dedicated to increasing diversity and encouraging inclusion in the industry. It's a badass team of super talented racers of varying ethnicities and backgrounds who don't necessarily fit the status quo of the current whitewashed cycling program. So, this is Justin's story, from his experience growing up in Los Angeles to immigrant parents, through his blossoming love affair with the bike. It's also a dissection of the cycling industry as a whole, and a dialogue about the ways Legion is breaking barriers and setting a new standard when it comes to supporting athletes and promoting inclusivity.

• 8:58Rich Roll?

  Justin is a guy who is wise beyond his years. He is passion in motion and one of my cycling heroes. Also, really the embodiment of persistence. And this, I think, powerful reminder that what is most important about sport isn't wins. It's not podiums or medals. Instead, it's really about this journey towards self-actualization and the impact that you leave on others. And it's also about enjoying the shared experience. It was an honor to sit down with this accomplished athlete and inspiring activist.

• 9:40Rich Roll?

  Oh, and not to bury the lead, but Knox Robinson also popped in to quietly hang in the wings, so that was very cool. Anyway, enough said. This is an important and enlightening exchange, and I hope you dig it as much as I did. And it is with that that I give you Justin Williams. All right, man. Justin, thank you for doing this. I appreciate it.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, no problem.

• 10:03Rich Roll?

  We had a little bit of a false start the other day.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. Everything's on Zoom right now.

• 10:06Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  So I just assumed, man. I was like, oh, yeah, Zoom meeting.

• 10:09Rich Roll?

  My bad. My bad. But I appreciate you making time over the weekend, man. I've been looking forward to this for a while.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, no worries. I love coming to Thousand Oaks. So this is like, I used to live out here, so it was like a nice little blast from the past.

• 10:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Driving through and like, yeah, Chipotle's right there.

• 10:23Rich Roll?

  You do, you do a fair amount of riding out this way.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  I love it as much as I can. Usually there's Nasco and Phil's, which is like kind of this really cool build into the offseason. I usually suffer through both of those because they're pretty close together and I usually have no training.

• 10:38Rich Roll?

  Phil's like cookie fondue thing?

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's cookie fondue. So I usually suffer through those and those kind of are the wake-up call to being like, yo, you should, you should probably start training.

• 10:47Rich Roll?

  Right. How, how's training been lately? Like, what's it like doing what you do in this COVID era?

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been odd with the fires and everything. Like, we You know, it was this kind of stay ready so you don't have to get ready situation in the beginning of the year to the middle of the year. And then summer started and we're like, it doesn't look like anything's gonna happen. So we took a little bit of a break, me and my younger brother. And then it just feels like it's things upon things happening where it's just, you don't know what kind of training you should be doing.

• 11:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  And then when the fires started off, we had just like actually started getting into like those slow base miles. And then, yeah, and then that kind of kicked us out. We're gonna go to like Utah. It didn't, didn't happen. And then the fire's kind of simmered down. So now I'm just like suffering through these, these, these days of training. That's like should have started maybe a month ago, two weeks ago.

• 11:43Rich Roll?

  There's no races though. I mean, Tour de France has happened, the Juro's going on right now, but are there local like crits and things like that going on right now or no?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  No, man. I feel like the organizers or the SCNCA kind of dropped the ball as far as putting something together. Like to kind of, there's been this hunger for wanting to do something. And we have a lot of group rides where people were starting to, to kind of collect at, but there's been no, there's been no racing, no plan of racing, no discussion about racing, like nothing, at least in California.

• 12:16Rich Roll?

  Makes it hard to stay.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Motivated for what?

• 12:20Rich Roll?

  Right. And what about the rest of the Legion crew? Like, are you able to keep that together and keep them engaged with everything or?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's, it's, we have a lot of fun. We have like a group chat and kind of the, you know, these like little small things that we have where, you know, we just try to keep the guys engaged or at least like communicating with each other. We're, we, you know, we built the team with the idea of having this family and guys that we really believed in from our past. And we started, the team was small. It started from nothing. So a lot of people had to buy into the idea because we didn't really have a ton of support. And that's the vibe that we have as a team. So it's pretty easy to like, just have conversations about stuff that's happening in cycling, ideas that people have. We are able to kind of.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Grant them a voice, right? And when usually when you're on a team, you do your job and you ride your bike and that's kind of the gist of it. But because, you know, we have this kind of open platform where, you know, the guys are more than welcome to give suggestions and voice their opinions and everything. Like, there's always something happening where guys are like, oh, we should do this, or we should think about this. And that's made it, that and Zwift have made it bearable, right?

• 13:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  We're always, we're always getting into something.

• 13:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, Legion of Los Angeles is super cool. Like, it's very inspirational, what you've created, what you've built, and kind of what you're lording over right now. And the idea, at least it seems to me, is kind of twofold. Like, one is taking a stand for athlete representation in a broken system. We were talking a little bit about that before the podcast. And the second is, you know, being a voice for inclusion and diversity in a sport that is in desperate need of, you know, a pretty strong injection of that right now. So, I mean, are those the kind of two, you know, primary things that you think about?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there, I think those are two, the most important things, or my driving forces, right? Like, being an athlete, being in that system of kind of how teams are set up and structured that are obviously weren't working, and having friends that have quit the sport because of that. Understanding the culture that I come from and how people view that, and then trying to put it in front of people that come from where I come from in a way that they can digest it and kind of pull inspiration from it and be actually interested in it. You know, what the old version was and what we're trying to do with the team now, it just really clashed, right? There just wasn't, I knew that we had to

• 14:56Speaker 01

  do things in our own way, in our own voice, in our, kind of, from our own perspective to really help diversify it, right? Like, representation important, is important in us standing on top of the podium and being in these races and showing is one thing, but also bringing that culture and showing that culture and showing people that it's not like this. This thing that you have to conform to be a part of.

• 15:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  That's also really important, right?

• 15:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  When people come into something that they don't see themselves into and they don't, and they feel like they have to be something else to be a part of it. You know, a lot of the time, no one wants to stick around.

• 15:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  And that's a lot of what we've seen.

• 15:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's, there's, I mean, when you talk about culture, there's, there's like traditional cycling culture and then there's like culture, culture, right? And you're, I feel like you're, you're like reimagining where those two worlds meet. And, and part of like Legion extends beyond just being this cycling team and this kind of, um, you know, way of mentoring young riders from diverse backgrounds to get into the sport, but really kind of like this aspirational brand. Like, I think I read somewhere, you were like this, I want to be like, you know, what supreme is to skateboarding.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:15Rich Roll?

  You know, I want to be that for cycling, like, like, like having a really strong sensibility, like fashion sensibility, culture sensibility. And when you see like, you know, the kit, it's just fucking dope. I mean, it's like, it's the best kit, you know? It definitely, and I know you're into like everything from the typeface and the color schemes and all of that. And, and what you've done is like really cool. Like when you see it, it stands out and it, and it means something. And I think that makes people excited about cycling in a new and different way, but it also has a life kind of almost outside of cycling, just in culture at large, so.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  And that was, that was the whole kind of idea behind it being Legion of Los Angeles and not like some racing team that goes fast. You know what I mean? Some title like that. It was super important for me. I grew up in South Central LA where there's like, and I loved graffiti growing up. I used to, you know, draw graffiti and I've always been into typography, always been into fashion. So again, it's just being true to kind of my vision and understanding of, you know, what I thought could bring more people in. I think the first step in, in. Making someone feel invited to something is like making it aesthetically pleasing to them. So that's really like where I stood when we were coming up with the name, the title and everything.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  And kind of just the persona and look of the team. I think it's gone pretty well. We've been able to, I don't know how, but we've been able to definitely kind of maneuver ourselves where.

• 17:48Rich Roll?

  I mean, I could see like a whole lot, like hoodies, like all the whole thing, man, you know, not just cycling. Can you, can you even buy like the, the red, white and blue kit that you wear?

• 17:57Speaker 01

  You can't, you can't.

• 17:58Rich Roll?

  You gotta earn that.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Exactly. You can't even get a kit with like that looks like the team kit. It's like one of those things where I wanted to keep that like special, right? So you can't get a Legion kit or bibs right now. You can only get like the supporter kit is what we call it. Because like there needs to be, like to buy an NBA jersey, you can't buy an NBA jersey that the players step out on the floor with. Right? And cycling, to me, my personal opinion is that like every person has access to everything. And it creates this mentality where like, people think that because they're riding the same bike as you, they deserve the same respect as you. But you're putting in, you know, 30 hours a week on the bike and another like 10 hours a week in the gym. And then you're like eating oatmeal for breakfast and all, you know?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Doing all these things to be this professional athlete. And then you have, there's this attitude, this elitist attitude within the sport where everyone kind of feels like, well, I have the same bike. Cause you have the same, I can buy the same stuff that you, you worked your whole life for.

• 18:59Rich Roll?

  You're like, no, no, no.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  And then it's, yeah, it just creates, to me, I feel like it just creates this kind of understanding that like you're, the work that you put in your whole life, I've been riding since I was 13, right? The work that you put in your whole life, I could just pay for. And like, there needs to be some kind of a separation from what the pros can get versus like what your everyday consumer can get.

• 19:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  I think that's a lazy old marketing tactic that a lot of brands use where they're like, oh, the pros ride it, you can also ride it. But I think that's in cycling, that's created this world where people kind of just.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Walk around with like a kind of a big head because they can do that.

• 19:39Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, you see people out riding or in the kits of all the teams, you know, I think you can spot from 200 yards away whether somebody's legit.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  And that's crazy because I think it's great that you want to represent a team like the same way I represent the Lakers. I was, you know, we lost last night. I was in my jersey, super mad. I think that's great, but I have a swing man jersey, right? I can't, I can't step onto the Staples Stadium and go shoot a, shoot a basket. So it's just like there's, there needs to be some kind of, it's really good that people want to wear team jerseys and stuff and represent their, their team that they believe in because that's what Legion is to us, right? It's this, it's this opportunity to create a platform that is similar to a franchise that we've seen in professional sports, right?

• 20:30Speaker 01

  The Lakers, the Cowboys, the etc. This is my town. This is my city. This is my team kind of thing. But at the same time, we have to make sure that there's that separation that these guys that are spending their whole lives trying to get to this level feels special doing that.

• 20:44Rich Roll?

  Right. We got Knox Robinson over here who, he's got a similar thing with Black Roses, right? Like we joked earlier, like I was going to ask him for a Black Roses singlet and he's like, no, man, you're on the crew. You know, you can't just get it, right?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I know. Dude, you're like, ugh.

• 21:03Rich Roll?

  Total tangent, but like, can we talk about the EF like Palace Duck Kit? What is going on?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  It's so important, man.

• 21:11Rich Roll?

  What is up with that?

• 21:11Speaker 01

  You know, it's one of those things where people love or hate it, which I think is perfect. Like people, when you make something that is that kind of left field, people should love or hate it. It should be very powerful emotionally on one side or the other. I don't care what people think about the kit. I like the kit, but I don't care what people think about the kit. It's about what it means for professional cycling to kind of have that collaboration with a brand that's so mainstream and has like such a powerful kind of. Vibe to it and for them to interject that

• 21:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  On the top level, I think that's like extremely important for the sport moving forward.

• 21:48Rich Roll?

  I mean, I'm an old man, so when I see it like my eyes hurt, but I but I respect like it's a British skateboard streetwear brand, right? And the idea that like a cycling team would collaborate with that kind of with that kind of company, I think is cool. And it's Rafa, right? Like it's the same, yeah, same.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Same brand that we're sponsored by, yeah. It's, um, like I said, it's it's super important to like these next steps of kind of like creating change in cycling, breaking tradition in cycling. It's, it is a very important move. It's a power move from Rafa and education first because they did it on at the Giro. I think they should have did it at the Torbo.

• 22:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  You know, whatever. But it's, it's crazy to see that happen because I, I can't recall anything. And I think that it's, it's not being hailed as, as big of a deal as it actually is because we've never seen anything like that happen in cycling.

• 22:40Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, for better or worse, cycling is so much, it's so rooted in tradition, some of which, you know, is super archaic.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:49Rich Roll?

  And there's something to be said for some of those traditions, but upending those to modernize it and and like broaden the aperture of the sport to make it appealing for another, you know, younger generation.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think at some point, every, cycling is running into a ton of issues as far as like the age group that is consuming it now.

• 23:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Right? Like at some point, you have to move, you have to be willing to, to change and evolve to continue the growth of something. And it just feels like sometimes they aren't paying attention at all to, you know, growth and getting a new demographic into it.

• 23:27Rich Roll?

  Is there any sport more fucked up than cycling?

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Not that I, not that I personally know of.

• 23:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, they just, it just seems like they cannot get out of their own way.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  I don't think they want to. Cycling is very much a sport where the people at the top. Are fine with making what they're making and they have all the controls. So it's like, well, we're gonna do it our way because we can. We don't like it. We talked about this earlier, like it's not about everyone winning. It's about us getting what we want and then keeping it that way so that we have full control over. You know, I think that in cycling, there's this massive fear of losing control. But, you know, at some point you have to let things go with with me and with Legion. Like, I understand Legion is like a small brand right now. It's gonna get to a point where I want it to outgrow me. I want it to be like this thing that's that's so big that I have to like

• 24:20Speaker 01

  reach out for help or have to like distribute parts of it. We have to break it into different things like that's really a cool thing, right? Cause then that means the reach of it is gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger. I think that's super important. I think that's lacking in cycling right now.

• 24:36Rich Roll?

  Well, I want to get into the disruption of the sport, but I think, you know, for people that are watching or listening who aren't like super rooted in, you know, in what cycling is and isn't, it would be helpful to kind of paint the picture of what professional cycling is all about, like from the insider's perspective. Like, what is it like when you're on one of these teams? Like financially, professionally, when you, when you talk about like the control mechanism, like the, the day in the life and, you know, there's a romance around it, but the reality is, you know, very different, very, very different.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, there's just a lot of shady things happening.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  A lot of shady things domestically on the US scene. The guys just aren't getting paid. You know what I mean? Like due to, again, it takes an immense amount of effort to become a professional cyclist. And these, there's a lot of team managers that are taking their cut of whatever that, that partnership money is and, you know, building these programs and teams where the guys ride, they keep their mouth shut, they don't ask for anything. They're lucky to be there and it's still this mentality, even though it's, our team runs, operates as a marketing firm that uses cycling as a platform to market the partners that we are sponsored by or that we work with. That's really the gist of like every cycling team, right?

• 25:58Speaker 01

  But managers keep control over their athletes by just suppressing them, making sure that they feel lucky to be there, even though like when you're getting paid like 12 grand a year.

• 26:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  As an independent contractor, which is how the contracts are set up. You're an independent contractor, you work for yourself, we're giving you, you're agreeing to do this job for us for 12 grand. Man, who can live off of 12 grand?

• 26:24Rich Roll?

  Well, Phil wrote that book, like Pro Cycling on $10 a day.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:28Rich Roll?

  Which is like the reality of it for most people, unless you're a superstar.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, even the superstar, it's like, there's a few guys that get paid like real money. But yeah, like again, domestically, like that's what you're dealing with. If you're even getting paid, and the sad part about that whole thing is that it doesn't have to be like that. Like, especially right now, cycling is a massive industry. It makes money. But these directors are so used to just asking companies for just enough so that they can pay themselves and run the program so that they can secure that sponsorship, right? So it's like, if people are asking for less and less and less and less to run their program, and the only people that are suffering from that is the athletes, right? At what point are there going to be, either the level is going to come down, the sport

• 27:17Speaker 01

  is not going to grow, or it's just going to deteriorate to the point where like, what is it going to look like to be a pro cyclist or to be a professional at bike riding? It's going to be guys that can afford to do it.

• 27:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  And we continuously talk about this, how elitist cycling is, or how, how hard it is to get into it because, you know, bikes cost X amount of dollars. But the reality of it is, is like, what the top of the sport looks like just isn't really appealing to anybody because... These teams are continuously just asking for enough to so they can get by and they can run the program on a nickel and dime budget.

• 27:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  When they could actually go, which we've proven, you can actually go to these sponsors and say, this is what we're doing, this is why we're valuable, here are the numbers and analytics to back it up, here are the people that we highlight, our superstars, our Corey's, our Justin's, um, this is how we work, how we make everything work, um, you know, this is what we're asking for. And they go, okay, cool. But that's worth it. We can, we can, we can justify spending that. Instead, they, these managers are going, this is how much we need, we need some, we need some product and, uh, and that, that'll, that'll be fine. And then, once they take their cut out, what's left is like what they try to.

• 28:38Rich Roll?

  The product swap.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:40Rich Roll?

  And you should be grateful.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  And you should be grateful.

• 28:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  You get to live the dream.

• 28:44Rich Roll?

  It's amazing that there's never been, like, cycling has never been able to get it together to create like an athletes' union, essentially, to collectively lobby for.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Everyone's terrified. People don't talk about, no one talks about anything. No one talks about, you know, if you look at most other sports, you can see what everyone's making. You know LeBron's net worth is, you know, you could see what his salary is from the, from the Lakers. Cycling dudes, dudes don't even wanna talk about it, right? And it's such a mental kind of fuck where, you know, guys that aren't getting paid anything aren't even expecting it. And they think now that other guys that are asking to get paid are wrong for asking to get paid because now they're comparing each other, you know, they're comparing themselves to that person and going, well, I'm better than you and I

• 29:37Speaker 01

  don't, I don't get paid. So why should you get paid? And it's like, bro, like, it's.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  We're all in a bad situation. We should talk, we should stick together and start to like demand, you know, that we do because teams actively suppress riders being, becoming valuable to sponsors.

• 30:01Rich Roll?

  Well, there's a dysfunction, I think, that is, that's sort of informed by that like umbrella of Omerita that defines cycling, like, we don't talk about these things and we're all in this together and there's this kind of collective silence around these important issues that keeps the sport from moving forward.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  I think that stems from a lot of like the European culture and like, you know, great, kudos to European cycling, like, I think what they have is what they have, they grow up in and it's great, but I think it just doesn't work for Americans. And the more that we continue to kind of try to emulate that model, the more we're doing a disservice to kids that are trying to get into the sport and make a living out of doing it. That does not work here, it's not gonna work here, call it entitlement or whatever you wanna call it, you know, again, I have tens of 20, 10, 20, 30 friends that have quit the sport because there is no, there is nothing there for them. They, at some point, you grow up to an age where you have to take care of your family,

• 31:03Speaker 01

  you have to pay your bills. And we just don't have the structures that they have in Europe. In Europe, they have so many teams, man, there's, I remember one year, I sent 150 resumes out because that's how, and most of those teams were in Europe, right, Europe, Asia, and that's where 150 teams, right here, there's, I think there's maybe 10 continental teams, maybe? So it's like, we just don't have the structure that they have in Europe, so if we continue to try to like emulate that model in a way. That we are, it's just, there is no future.

• 31:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, we're in a whole new world now. This is the, this is the age of the influencer, marketing, you know, kind of thing that, you know, these, these technological tools have allowed people like yourself to, you know, basically rewrite some of the rulebooks here. Cycling is tricky because fundamentally, it's a team sport. Like, it's not, you know, cross-country running or marathon running where it's really an individual thing. So it makes it a lot of it, a little bit harder, I would imagine. But the fact that you were able to kind of create this out of whole cloth and change, you know, the rulebook is amazing. And I would suspect that, you know, people are paying attention and you're going to see, you know, people doing something, you know, they're going to be copying that model more and more.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's something that I've definitely thought about, like, how are we setting the standard for like what's next in the sport and how sponsors and brands kind of interact with individuals and teams. Cycling is definitely a team sport. I think that there's, if you give people the proper tools and, and knowledge to do what we've done. Hey, everyone in our team, we go over social media, we go over social media tactics with them. We, we show them exactly how we've gotten the following and what it does. It's, it's actually pretty simple. It's just mostly about consistency and kind of understanding the algorithms

• 33:07Speaker 01

  and how they change on like social media platforms. But we, we teach our guys that because the, if, if we have 10 guys on a team and six of them have influence in different spaces, that makes the team more valuable. Now, getting people to understand what their role is on the team, like, that's where, that's just the conversation that you have to have. If you think you have, you know, cycling is infamous for not wanting to build superstars, but then that puts the team in a space where no one knows who's Who's who? No one knows what's happening, right? And then that creates this jealous space where guys can't do their goddamn job because they're so busy looking at like, well, why does this guy get that? Or why does the guy?

• 33:51Speaker 01

  No one asks why LeBron is LeBron. Like, he's proven why he's LeBron over and over and over again. And that doesn't mean the rest of the team is invaluable. That means just know your role and play your roles that we can all be successful. And so like, we really tried to create this structure where like, I raced 2018 on my own. I won, I think 17 or 18 races.

• 34:12Rich Roll?

  I mean, had anybody ever done, you were winning national championships without a team. It's like unprecedented, it was like insane.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  So in taking that and kind of like using that as understanding for a lot of guys that came to the team. I'm like, hey, guys, I'm doing this because I care about you and I want to build the sport, not because I need a team. And that's not to say that in a way that's like, you guys are lucky to be here. That's saying like, hey, man, like, I've done this on my own. I'm here trying to help you guys do the same and, and, and for us to do it as a family together. Like, let's make sure we keep that in mind as we're growing and as we're moving. And, you know, the guy, the team that we put together, we really structured it in a way where like, we have guys that can do everything. We have guys that understand their role within the team.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  And that's how we, that's why we won so much without, we don't have the best guys in the country. We have solid guys. Most of our guys are local. Most of our guys are from LA. So putting together a, a local team that's able to win on a national level, you know, it's something that comes from creating this structure where everyone knows their role and everyone is understanding of the team's goal.

• 35:27Rich Roll?

  And within that. Is there, like, what's the difference in like financial incentivization structure for the athlete? Like, is it, I assume it's different than it would be like on a world, you know, world tour team?

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, and we're figuring that out. Everything is very new to like, we're, we're creating this new structure, but we have no idea.

• 35:48Rich Roll?

  I mean, the team's two years, like, two years old, right?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  A year and a half, if not even, you know what I mean? So we're, everyone keeps asking us like, oh yeah, like, how do we do this and what's next? And I'm like, bruh, I'm figuring it out as I go. But yeah, it's different. On the world tour, there is a, there's a minimum. And the way that minimum works, it just depends, like, the, the big secret of being pro tour is that, or, or pro Conti or whatever, that some of the riders are hired as staff, so they don't make as much. Or they have like these double contracts where the, the UCI minimum will be like 60,000 or whatever the number is. And then they'll basically say, oh yeah, here's your UCI contract, but then you gotta pay for your bikes. You're paying for your own travel. You're basically doing all of this stuff that's taking away from that, what that minimum is, right?

• 36:34Speaker 01

  So for what we're doing now, we're obviously like, it's, we, we talked to all our guys and we're like, yo, it's an investment. We'll pay you X amount of dollars, but as we grow and as you help us grow, you, you'll also grow, right? That's, that's the buy-in because we don't have, like, again, we barely had support in our first year. I literally had to go to my sponsors and they're like, what you did last year by yourself, just do that again. And I was like, no, no, no, like, I wanna start a team and I really wanna like, spread this wealth and kind of show everyone that you can do cycling in a way that's really cool, really fun and really fulfilling.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Give me the support to do that and then I'll show you what it's worth. And like, that's why going into this year, or going into this year and going into next year, you know, we've done really well during the, during, during COVID. I know that there are a lot of teams that are like struggling.

• 37:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  You know, but we've done really well because. You know, having that focus on marketing and kind of showing off the lifestyle and just giving people something to aspire to, or just like something to pull inspiration from. That's worked very well for us, but that's always been the motto that we've tried to.

• 37:51Rich Roll?

  It's a, it's a better financial investment. I mean, when you look at, I mean, the, the operating budget for like a world, a world tour team is like $20 million.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like 10 to 20 million dollars.

• 38:00Rich Roll?

  It's like crazy. You gotta get the RV and like the whole thing. Like it's a major, you're, you're running a huge business in order to do that. But ultimately, to your point of a cycling team being, you know, a marketing vehicle for brands, how are you going to get the most bang for your buck on an ROI level? It's like the storytelling and the inspiration that comes from what it is that you do is much more powerful and will translate in a more meaningful way to the end consumer who's looking to buy a bike or whatever product it is that you're, that you're, you know, sponsored by versus somebody standing on a podium in some race in Belgium, you know, getting kissed on the cheek by a girl. Like, is that, is that even meaningful anymore?

• 38:40Speaker 01

  I mean, the winning is powerful. Winning is, you know, a lot of the reason that we are where we are. Winning is power. How you use it and how you, and how you position yourself to market that and use that influence to kind of create this following is what's important. In Europe, they're still doing, you know, when I was in Europe, they wanted you to do like 75 race days or something.

• 39:04Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Which is, which is a lot.

• 39:06Rich Roll?

  You're like living in Belgium. It's freezing. It's raining out. It just sounds miserable.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Which is a lot. So you need the winning, but on the same token, like we've, you know, building content around specific event, what we've noticed is that you don't need that many events. You need, you need maybe 10 events on the year with like a very, a really good content creation plan. And usually we're at these races for like four or five days. So like throughout those days, the training rides, the community interaction that we do, all of that stuff. Capturing all of that can create content for months.

• 39:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  So if you have 10 events on the year and you're, you're creating these full content kind of layouts with these plans and, and understanding what you're trying to capturing, understanding what your, your vision is and, and who you're trying to. The audience that you're trying to capture, like you can do that in ten, ten races, right?

• 40:02Rich Roll?

  How do you balance, you know, running this team, being the manager and all the, you know, administrative things that go into that with like the training and the racing?

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Um, I've gotten lucky, honestly. Um, my fitness definitely isn't what it was when, when I was just riding in 2018. I literally just trained with my little brother all the time, didn't complain, um, put in the hours and then, and I was really just being his training partner. I was like, I'm, I'm pretty much done. I just want to have a year where I kind of enjoy, uh, the things that I love about the sport and like going to different cities and really going to like these nice restaurants and hanging out with friends that I've had, uh, doing all that. And then once I got into running the team, it, it was a lot more work than I thought it was going to be initially. Cause like on my own, I was like, oh, I can do this for six other guys. And it just, it became a whirlwind.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  So this year or for 2021, I actually hired a couple of people to come on and, and help me with that because yeah, it's, it's almost impossible. It's, you know, doing 20 to 25 hours of training and then also getting done with that and having to jump on like zoom calls or it being meetings, uh, having to do design work, all of this stuff, even little things like build like the team's, uh, information sheet on like Google docs. Like all of that stuff takes so much time that it, it was catching up to me where I was like, oh, I'm not going to be very, I'm not going to be very good if I have to do like these, these nine things. But when I, when I first started, I knew it was going to be a lot of work, uh, and I knew it was just going to be a sacrifice. So I was like,

• 41:42Speaker 01

  man, like I've had three extremely good years of racing. Um,

• 41:47Speaker 01

  I can take a year or two off, or like to be, I could take a year or two and be slightly less good.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  With the team though, with the full team that's built around me, which also makes it easier, hopefully that balances out things a little bit. And really focus on building something that, that's going to be important to me and impactful for people.

• 42:10Rich Roll?

  Right. I've heard you talk about how, you know, the fitness part in the whole scheme of like performance is just one piece of this puzzle. And really, at least with respect to crit racing, like the superpower that you have is being able to kind of read everything and be, it's like a chess match and you have to be, you know, 10 steps ahead of everybody else and kind of know where to position yourself and where to be so that you're in the right place at the right time.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:38Rich Roll?

  And that's kind of like a life skill too, right? Like if you can apply that to how you're building the team or how you're living your life, like.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  That's what, that's what COVID has given me. It's given me this understanding and this, um, this space to transition, kind of that race tactics, uh, that I use in races. Now applying that to business and kind of the way I like operate in my, my life and just positioning yourself with patience, understanding, uh, and the information that you have to get the best result. And yeah, it's, it's been really kind of interesting to see my, or to feel really my brain kind of shift because I don't have racing to kind of really using that knowledge and information of tactics and applying that to like other things in my life.

• 43:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  It's been kind of, kind of fun.

• 43:27Rich Roll?

  Right. So you're like, that guy's doing that, but if I'm here and then, you know, six months from now, then I'm going to be over here.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  I think the biggest misconception about racing that everyone has is that.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  You know, it's not like other sports where like if you're the strongest, you win. Or it's not like a lot of other things where if you're the strongest, you win. Cycling, it seems like everyone gets into the sport and they go, if I can build the fitness, I can be the best. And it's like the furthest thing from the truth because you're never going to be, we're all human, you're never going to be so much better than someone, especially in criteriums where there are like six corners, four corners, eight corners, where you gotta know how to handle your bike, you gotta know how to ride in the peloton so that you're not wasting energy, you gotta know kind of how the peloton is reacting to things so that you can know when to be in a position so that you can capitalize. There's all of these things happening and also you're looking at different individuals

• 44:25Speaker 01

  and riders and going like, okay, like I know this guy can go from a mile out, so at a mile, I gotta make sure that I'm close to him or I can see what he's doing. I know this guy wants to go early or I know this guy wants to go late. So I need, you're figuring out all of this stuff while understanding the course, knowing and having to be good at the corners, bouncing off of people at 30 miles an hour. And like all of this stuff is happening is my favorite thing in the world because it is this moving chess game where like if you can master the game, the fitness matters a little bit less.

• 45:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was watching a video of you and your brother doing kind of like a race recap while watching, like you had a GoPro and you had this crit and it was so hectic, like my hands were sweating.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 45:13Rich Roll?

  Just watching this, like it really is a contact sport and you're so close to these guys bouncing off of them and like going into these corners and pushing just like crazy watts. And for most of the race, like you're pretty kind of far back and then you just figure out like how to get right to where you need to be.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  That's all depending on what the vibe is. Like that, that all depends on like the first, I break races down into like sections. So like the first 10 minutes, I'll kind of just feel what's happening and how people are reacting. The next 20 minutes, you're looking at if the peloton is like awake. And if they're attentive, or if they're lazy, because if they're lazy, you have to stay forward. Because you're gonna have to follow more. If they're attentive, you can kind of sit back and chill and be like, oh, the race is fast. Like, nothing's going anywhere. At the end of the day, most races, most criteriums average 28, 29 miles an hour. So for riding, if I'm looking down on my computer and I'm seeing 28, 29 miles an hour.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  I know that someone would have to be crazy strong. Plus, you would have to have the right group of like six guys up the road. For it even to have a chance. So like, yeah, you can be kind of chill in that moment. And then like the toward the end, you just have to start watching the good guys. Because you're like, okay, like, we're 40 minutes in, we're 45 minutes in. Now I know there's 10 guys, maybe, that can actually do something in this moment, right? And then once that window passes of like, you know, oh, they had a 10 minute window to do something, or a 15 minute window to do something. No one's done anything. By that time, my team's already kind of gathering at the front. And now they're going to control what the field does. So it's like, it's pretty much the same cycle.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  And while we're capable of racing races in different ways, like, you know, I'll look at the race from the beginning and feel it out. At these different points and kind of know how to react to that.

• 47:03Rich Roll?

  But having teammates who all know their role and working together as a unit seems so crucial to that success, right? How are you going to get your lead out? And then I'm looking at you in 2018, like, winning, you know, winning these races without any teammates.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:19Rich Roll?

  How does that work?

• 47:20Speaker 01

  So like racing without teammates, you have to be more attentive, but you have to race to your strengths. Like, I'm pretty fast. I'm, I can sprint. I'm a sprinter.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  So what I can do better than anyone else is do 1800 watts for

• 47:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  You know, three seconds.

• 47:36Rich Roll?

  Which for people that don't know, the nanos.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can do a massive effort really quickly. And that's how I'll race, because if I close a gap, super fast, because I sprinted across. And you're not a sprinter, and you're behind me, even if you're on my wheel, the amount, the effort that it's going to take for you to stay with me.

• 47:56Rich Roll?

  Cooked.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Is going to cook you. And if I, I can do that effort. Twenty times, thirty times, most people their max wattage is like twelve hundred watts. So if I'm riding across something that's eighteen hundred watts, which is significantly more, even if you're on my wheel, you're going to a hundred and ten percent to try to close the gap, or maybe it was only eighty percent for me.

• 48:19Rich Roll?

  And then you can dial it back and recover.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  And then I can dial it back, get there, recover. And not only that, I've pulled you out of your comfort zone now. So like, now you've done an effort that doesn't suit you, and you have to try to recover from it. It just like takes much more out of people. So on the opposite side of that, it would be like me riding all day at like threshold. I'm not a threshold guy. I'm not a guy that's gonna ride this medium effort all day. It's gonna kill me, and then I'm not gonna be able to sprint at the end.

• 48:47Rich Roll?

  But at the same time, cycling is the only sport where sprinters are in races that go on for hours.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, there is no weight class, there is no category. It's a super weird space.

• 48:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, cuz I'm a hundred and eighty pounds, you know, like I'm racing against guys that are a hundred and forty pounds, a hundred and thirty pounds, and they go, like, once the road goes up, it's like a very big disadvantage to have to carry that weight up and over climbs. And it's always something that I thought was kind of weird, but you know, cycling is great because there's different, there's different events and different things for everyone, different kind of races for everyone. But yeah, like, you have to survive those races as that bigger guy, so. Now, that's why you have, you know, a team where, cuz like, on a day like that, it's just someone else's day. And we do our best, and I'll do my best to put that person into position, because I know what my role is when we show up to a road race. If I get selected for the team, I'm like, oh, my role is to like,

• 49:44Speaker 01

  protect the GC guy and kind of use my knowledge of racing to just position them right. I could be in position ten times out of ten. And if I can do that and have my GC guy or my climber on my wheel before I get blown off the back, then that's a job well done. I can be proud of that, and I can go, you know, I can hold my head high if that guy gets a result, because like, I did my job in putting him in the right position to do well on that day. And it's just that in different situation for different people.

• 50:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 50:29Rich Roll?

  Well, let's take it back, man, because your backstory is kind of amazing. Like, growing up here and how you got into cycling and the role that your dad played and all of that. Can you talk a little bit about that?

• 50:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, I was, my parents are Belizean, so, and Belize soccer and cycling are the biggest sports. And my dad has always ridden. I like, I literally remember he had this Eddie Merckx frame, and Cory was a baby, and his bike was next to the crib, and Cory took like this little toy hammer and chipped his bike. Dude, it was not good for Cory. But it's always been in the family.

• 51:05Rich Roll?

  He grew up cycling in Belize?

• 51:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, he grew up cycling in Belize. He was actually, he was actually a runner before he got into cycling. And because the glamour of cycling in Belize, he like stopped running to do cycling.

• 51:17Rich Roll?

  I didn't realize that cycling was a big deal in Belize.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  It's massive, man. We go down every year to do this race called the Cross Country. It's Holy Saturday Cross Country Race. It's on, I think it takes place on a Holy Saturday, they call it. Yeah, but it's massive, man. We go-

• 51:33Rich Roll?

  That's the one where you won and your dad finally figured out that you were good at this? And you like won a piece of land or something?

• 51:39Speaker 01

  I won a piece of land. It's so cool. But the race is 144 miles. The whole country is out on the side of the road. This is a massive point of pride where if a Belizean wins, the whole like country celebrates. And if a Belizean doesn't win, everybody's like super pissed off for like the rest of the weekend, dude. It's actually, it's crazy how different the vibe is from when someone that is Belizean wins versus how they don't win. But-

• 52:08Rich Roll?

  How often does a Belizean win?

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Not very often.

• 52:10Rich Roll?

  It sounds like Comrades Marathon in South Africa. You know, there's this double marathon race every year. Have you, have you done Comrades? You've done it twice. Yeah, like the whole place goes insane for it, right?

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:24Rich Roll?

  It's like the Super Bowl. Yeah.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly. So it's like, it's like that. It's 144 miles. But seriously, man, there's probably like 70 or 80 prizes- Is out on the road. So like every like mile, there's like a gift basket, a cake, a bull. There's a bull up for grabs. Like there's money, airline tickets, vacations, like every like town, basically, and most of the companies that are in the country gives a prize. So like dude, people are sprinting all day to try to get these, to get these prizes. And then by the time you're coming back, there's like thirty dudes left. You know what I mean? Because everyone like got their prize and they're like, yeah, I'm good. I got my like two thousand dollar prize. I'm gonna go

• 53:07Speaker 01

  home now. I'm good. And that's a lot of money, man. It's actually two grand is a lot of money. That's how much some of the bigger races pay here. So it's this massive event. So.

• 53:17Rich Roll?

  So your dad, your dad did that race?

• 53:19Speaker 01

  My dad did that race for years, man. And I think the best place he got was like, I think like fourth or something.

• 53:26Rich Roll?

  That's pretty good, though.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  I, I think it's pretty good, but you know, he's, I mean, for the amount of times that he, he did it, I was like, dude, you couldn't win once. Come on, man.

• 53:36Rich Roll?

  So when did, when did they move to LA and why did they move?

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know why they moved. Uh, they moved over in their twenties. Um, and they moved over separately. Um, and then got together when they, when they were here. Um, but yeah, it was, it was, it's massive on my mom's side of the family, which I didn't know until I got older. Like there's like, you know, her cousins have won that race, maybe like one year. It was like ten years that they did it. And I think they won it eight out of the ten years. But I had no idea, like no one explains this to you when you're a little kid.

• 54:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  And you're like, oh yeah, I like bikes. That's pretty dope. It's like something where families build legacies around stuff like that, right? Like, and that could be like a military family or a family that goes to the NFL or et cetera. And I had no idea. So then I started riding one day because my dad, it was winter time. Uh, my dad left his, um, his bike on the trainer and I kind of always been interested. I've been like fascinated because my dad always had pretty bikes and stuff. Um, and I really got hooked. One year he raced for this team that had GTs. And it was like the, it was like probably the first aero bike ever. It was like this. Badass looking GT was like this green metallic green and like purple paint job. And I like fell in love with it. I was like, I don't want that bike, you know?

• 54:53Speaker 01

  So he left his bike on the train and I just started riding it one day and like, you know, after Corey chipped his bike, it was like very known that you don't touch my dad's bike, his bikes. Uh, and he just like watched me. So I just like, I just went for it and then I rode it and then obviously the seat was too high because I was a kid and I was like 12 or something, 13. So the seat was too high. So then he came over and he like, the second day that I rode, he like put the seat down. He's like, okay, cool. You want to ride? Let's, let's see. Dude, this man made me ride that trainer for two months before he took me out on the road. Just like every day. He wouldn't say anything. He wouldn't be like, yo, get on the bike. It's time to train. He wouldn't say anything. I just like

• 55:34Speaker 01

  went back to the bike and was like, I'm gonna ride today, see what he says. And like little by little, he like got me shoes. He got me like all the like, the right equipment to, to really ride.

• 55:43Rich Roll?

  He wasn't pushing you. He, he was just observing you.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  No, he actually tried to give me a bike when I was like maybe 10. It was this Bianchi. I'll never forget it. He like brought this Bianchi home. It was like this uh, Celeste and like orange Bianchi frame and it was my size and I was like riding it around our yard and we lived next to this alley. Um, so it was maybe like 500 meters long or like 400 meters long. And I was riding it up and down and up and down. I was like, gosh, this is sick. I'm doing it. And my, I remember my mom telling me to let CJ, my, my middle brother, ride the bike. And then my dad came outside and looked at me and was like, you're not serious. And he took the bike, dude. He didn't get it for me. Like, he was like, nah, you're not.

• 56:25Rich Roll?

  Took it away from you?

• 56:26Speaker 01

  He took it away from me. He like, I never saw it again. He was like, you're not serious. So like getting on the trainer and kind of doing it on my own, I think.

• 56:33Rich Roll?

  You're like 10. He's mad at you that you're not serious about a sport. You've gone on the bike for the first time.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, dude. You're not serious. And I was like, what? First of all, you need to talk to your wife. She's the one that told me to let.

• 56:45Rich Roll?

  Hardcore.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. So then when I started riding the trainer, he was like, all right, cool. Like he started giving me like slowly but surely giving me stuff. And then he's like, all right, you're ready to ride. And he, he swears he did it, but I would not forget this. He took me on a ride. It was like 70 miles. And like I was on PCH and I was like cramping and shit. And I was like, bro, he didn't tell me to eat. He didn't tell me to drink. He didn't give me any information. He was just like, just handle it, son. So we got like

• 57:13Rich Roll?

  Do you think that was by design?

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think he was trying to figure out like, I don't know if he was trying to figure out if I really wanted to do it or if like how tough I was, but it was definitely like a like either you're gonna sink or swim because he understood how brutal cycling was.

• 57:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  He grew up in, you know, the old school of cycling where like, you know, I think he said his first, the first bike he got, he weld, he welded the bottom bracket in.

• 57:37Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Or he got someone to weld the bottom bracket in. So he was like, it's not a game. It's not, especially for him, he had like these brutal kind of experiences with the sport. And like, that's was cool. Like that was like what the culture was back then. So like, he was just like, yeah, man, like, you gotta be tough.

• 57:55Rich Roll?

  It's like in today's age, it would be, the idea would be like, let's make sure he, he like has a good experience so that he wants to do it more, right? He was like trying to flame you out on the first ride.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  And I mean, I, I think there's something to be said about, there's not a lot of kids in cycling right now. Because like it is super hard and either you're gonna learn it, either you're gonna learn it the easy way or the hard way, basically. And the easy way would be like, yeah, let's make sure you have a good experience. But like, dude, there's days where you're out and you're bonking and you're thirty miles from home and you gotta be able to like man up and ride through that. You can't be like, oh, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm gonna stop and call an Uber. Like you're not, what happens when you're in a race?

• 58:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  You, you're not gonna do that. You cannot do that. So I, I, yeah, I think that there's something to be said about, at the end of the day, you have to be like, I, I was always taught, if you hit the ground in a race or if you crash, you get up and you finish the race. You figure out what's wrong with your bike. You get back in the race if you can. Dude, I see guys all the time right now, which maybe I'm getting old, but I'm super irritated because they'll sit in the middle of the road and I'm like, get off the goddamn course, man. What do you do? Either get up and get back in the race or get off the course. And dudes will be like, just sitting there like, oh, I scratched my elbow. And I'm like, we are not, what, what is happening?

• 59:20Speaker 01

  So it's just a different world and I like, I was lucky enough to get a little bit of the old school and the new school. So I understand both perspectives. I understand. The, the marketing and the social media and the influencer aspect of kind of the new school.

• 59:34Rich Roll?

  But you came up before that was a thing, right?

• 59:37Speaker 01

  I got to get the best of that old school where like there was that like kind of hard. Like this is nothing's going to get given to you. I didn't get my first new bike until I was a professional.

• 59:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Everything I had, dude, I remember having a bike that was like half campy and half Shimano.

• 59:54Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  And I was like, bro, this is the dopest bike ever, right? Cause it was like, I had worked so hard to get those parts. And like now kids are just like expecting a fully derailed tarmac. And I'm like, psych, like relax dude, it's not about the, it's not about your equipment. You need to, not only do you need to earn that, like if, if you think in your head that the only reason that these guys are winning is because they're on the best equipment, like you're sadly mistaken.

• 1:00:22Rich Roll?

  Hmm. But back on the PCH, when you, when you flamed out, dad, dad just split, right? Like you just kept riding?

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, he looked at me and he got mad because I had on boxers under my biking shirt because I was uncomfortable. Cause I was a kid and I was like, these, I didn't understand bike shorts. I didn't, and I didn't want to wear them. So I had short boxer shorts under and he lifted up my leg because I was cramping. He tried to massage out the cramp and he was like, didn't I tell you not to wear boxers under your shorts? And I was like.

• 1:00:51Rich Roll?

  No, you didn't tell me anything.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro, that's, that's real uncomfortable. I'm not, I'm not really, I'm not there yet, dad. And he was like, ah, whatever. He was like, just stay here. And I was like, all right. I don't know what that means, but all right. So I was just sitting on PCH and he left. He's like rolled off and I was like, cause I guess he was trying to get back to the, his group, the group. Uh, cause I had been dropped. Um, he just left. He didn't tell me anything and I didn't understand because I was, you know, half dead from being, from bonking, from not eating any calories on this like four hour ride. Um, but my aunt came and picked me up and I don't know if this was planned.

• 1:01:31Rich Roll?

  Right. Somebody made a phone call.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Rich Roll?

  I mean, that goes one of two ways. Either like, I'm never doing this again. Like that was miserable. Or like, I'm going to prove to him that I can, I can man up on this.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  I had already had, had this, um. I already had this thing in my head where I was gonna show him anyway because like I remember asking him could I race and he was like nah he was like you should do something else. He was like you could do modeling, you could do some other stuff, you could play, he was like stick to football. You're good at football, stick to football.

• 1:02:01Rich Roll?

  Mom wasn't down with football.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Mom was not down with football. So, yeah, it was, it was just like this roller coaster of like, yeah, I was gonna prove him wrong, but there was also another thing that kinda sucked me into which I think that's also missing. There was these two kids that grew up pretty close to me, Alex Garcia and Nico Semfraca. And they were state champion and I think Alex wasn't national champ, they were both state champions, but the year that I started racing, Alex won the national title. But Alex was like, dude, five foot tall and like a hundred pounds.

• 1:02:38Rich Roll?

  But he was like, you grew up in your neighborhood though?

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  No, he grew up in like Woodyear or something. They both grew up in like the Woodyear area, but like Alex had like, you know, he was a tough kid, like he didn't have the easiest upbringing either. He was a Mexican kid.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  And he was so good and he was so small and I was like, there's no way in hell. I, this is like after playing football, after playing basketball, like there's no way in hell this little ass kid is about to be beating me in anything. So like having, and this kid is a kid that goes on to be the national champion. So like having that level of entry, so like that's the guy I picked a fight with.

• 1:03:16Rich Roll?

  Right, little did you know. Yeah, like you hitched your, you know, train up to a guy who was going places. I mean, it wasn't long before you're winning races. I mean, but so you're like 13 at this point, but by 17, you're on Trek Livestrong.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Seventeen, I went to Rock Racing.

• 1:03:30Rich Roll?

  Oh, Rock Racing first, right.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  I signed my first pro contract. So from 13 to, or I guess my first racing year was 14. It was racing age 14, but the way it works is that whatever age you turn in the year that you're racing, that's your racing age. So my birthday is May 26th, but, and I was 13, but because I was turning 14 that year, that was my racing age. So that was my first year of racing was 14. And it was very interesting. It was very, very interesting, but from 14 to 17, I turned, I turned pro for the first time.

• 1:04:05Rich Roll?

  Wow. I mean, how long was it before you won your first race?

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Six months.

• 1:04:10Rich Roll?

  That's crazy.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was awesome because I beat Alex and he was like decked out in his like state champion helmet. And it's like, he had the Oakleys that wrap over your head. Those like futuristic ones.

• 1:04:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Had a skin suit on. I didn't even know what a skin suit was. He had a skin suit on and he just rode my race, man. He, the race was on a course that I trained on every Tuesday. So I knew like pretty much everything about the course. Uh, he just raced my race and that was like a lesson for me because I was like, man, if I go out here and I try to ride this guy's racing and destroy me. But if I like manipulate the situation into being like, oh, I'm tired. I can't pull through. Like when you want to pull through or like, I'm going to rest now because like it's going up a hill or something. I was just sandbagging the whole time. And then it came down to a sprint and like, I'm a pretty good sprinter and like I have been working with my dad about on, on sprinting on that course on,

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  uh, Tuesday, Tuesday night and I beat him dude. He ain't talked to me for like a month. It was the best dude because this is girl, it's always a girl. This is a girl named Megan and she like, they were like kind of a thing, but she was giving me all this attention after that race, dude. And he was like, I'm gonna kill you. He was like, I'm gonna kill you dude. And that was it. And it was like, at that point, we were just like locked into this rivalry over this girl. And it was like this balloon from there. It was like, he was, again, he went on to win the national championship. So from that moment, it was like, all right, my, my arch nemesis is the best guy in the country. So like, I'm not going to back down. He's not going to back down. It just like made us.

• 1:05:48Rich Roll?

  Make each other better.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  We just made each other so much better.

• 1:06:02Rich Roll?

  When does Rasan enter the picture?

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Rasan had always been in my life, honestly. Like, I've known Rasan forever. He was always around, him and my dad. The black community in cycling is pretty small. So him and my dad used to go back and forth when Rasan was younger and racing in the category threes.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  So I always saw him, and it was cool because he didn't look like kind of your typical hood dude. He was just like this dude that kind of dressed kind of preppy and was like kind of cool. He talked a certain way and he kind of carried himself a certain way. And there was three other guys. There was this guy Elijah who still rides. He actually gave me my first pair of carbon shoes, and there was this guy Kenny. And those three dudes were kind of always around. They were like the younger generation of cyclists. And they're on this team, Major Motion, which is the team that I ultimately went to when I was a junior. And it's a team that I'm bringing back now because the team has kind of gone away. And it's known for like bringing up some of the best Americans.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Like Corinne Rivera, who's led the World Tour for Women, was on that team. Kendall Ryan, who's won stages of Tour California, was on that team. So it's had like this massive pedigree of success. And I don't know how it went away, but it went away. So I'm bringing that back for next year.

• 1:07:23Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  So yeah, that was early, dude. I think that was like from the beginning. You know what I mean? And he's been, he really started mentoring me.

• 1:07:32Rich Roll?

  He's been kind of like a mentor to you.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, he really started mentoring me.

• 1:07:35Rich Roll?

  He's like a really striking, charismatic dude, you know?

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he was like, he's crazy talented. Most people don't know his story. He doesn't tell his story enough. But Rasan's amazing. Rasan won Elite Nationals when he was like 17 or something.

• 1:07:48Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  Which is like, would be like a kid showing up to a race now and beating me, which is not gonna happen. But he did that, and it was, that's insane. He was like the favorite for the world championships on the road. He's won... seventeen eighteen road race national solo. You know what I mean? So he has like this incredible background that no one really knows about because he doesn't tell his story as much as he should.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  But he started mentoring me at like maybe fifteen or sixteen. I remember riding next to him or him coming to get me on his like easy days, taking me out to ride. And he would scream at me if I wasn't like touching handlebars with him. And I'm like, I'm like, what do you want from me, dude? Like, I'm a kid. I don't know what you want me to do. I'm trying. And then we do. But you come from football. Yeah, exactly. Mix it up a little. And he comes from football also. So it was kind of this like, which is why it's like criterion racing specifically. So perfect for like the the culture that we come up in because criterion raising is like full contact. Yeah. Like, we're literally like, we're bouncing off each other just to like hold momentum in corners. So he really started kind of spending more time with me, maybe fourteen, fifteen, fifteen, sixteen.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  And then he used to lead me out. He's lead me out on Thursday nights at Long Beach, this training course. Like, people wonder why I'm, me and my brother are so good at criterion racing. But we've literally done a crit every Thursday, Tuesday and Thursday for maybe twenty years. Wow. You know what I mean? And like, that was like just tradition. You get home from school on Thursday, you get some food, you figure out, you figure out how much homework you can get done before you take off to Long Beach on Thursday. I think we would leave at like five fifty, get out of school like three thirty or four and then five fifty would leave.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Every Thursday, every Thursday. So like, I I learned how to do everything on that course. I know I learned how to control momentum. I learned how to cut corners, figure out ride corners, use corners to like gain momentum. I learned how to position myself. I learned how to ride breakaways, like all of this stuff. So like, we're not so great at criteriums because like we just are naturally talented. The ten thousand hours. It's a ten thousand hour thing for like for twenty years on Thursday at seven thirty. We would be doing this hour long criterion. And it was incredible. It was like, Rasan was out there and he used to lead me out, like the Mesa brothers who were crazy as kids, Sergio Hernandez.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Tony Cruz was on US Postal. He used to come out every once in a while who was like. Toni Cruise dude, like that's, that's crazy. And funny enough, Toni Cruise kind of like mended the relationship between me, Alex and Nico, because he gave us all these US Postal Skinsuits and they were like, guess we're on teams now. So on Thursday night, we used to use the US Postal Skinsuits to race together.

• 1:10:43Rich Roll?

  And that was like, that was okay to do that, even though you weren't on the team?

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, it was. It was because it wasn't a race. It was just a training ride. So like, and we're just these like little snotty nos kids that are like pumped at Toni Cruise.

• 1:10:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Which, first of all, I don't know how we fit into his Skinsuits, but yeah, he gave us these Skinsuits and like that kind of created this really cool dynamic between us where we were racing every Thursday together. So we were like, we should probably be on the same teams. So then we were on the same teams when we were like 16.

• 1:11:16Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  It was sick.

• 1:11:18Rich Roll?

  And when you joined Rock, Rasan was on Rock.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, Rasan actually didn't give me a choice.

• 1:11:23Rich Roll?

  His team came after that, right?

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, Rasan didn't give me a choice. He was like, dude, you're coming on Rock Racing.

• 1:11:27Rich Roll?

  I mean, Rock just seemed like the weirdest.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Dude, it was incredible. Yeah, Rock kind of.

• 1:11:33Rich Roll?

  Guy came in with a lot of money, right? It was all blinged out.

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  So he used to, he used to race. Racing was kind of, you know, in his Michael Ball. He used to race.

• 1:11:42Rich Roll?

  That's right.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  Um, cool guy, um, in the beginning. He, um, and actually Michael's still, still cool. I still talk to him every once in a while. Um, cool guy in the beginning. Uh, he used to race when he was younger. He got up to like a category three. So nothing like crazy, uh, but he loved racing, uh, and he had a lot of, you know, history, I think his family in racing. Um, started a jeans, uh, company, like a luxury jeans, jeans brand that took off and blew up. Um, and then when he got to a certain point in that, uh, he came back to cycling. I guess somebody, I think it was like this guy Holden Morris. Uh, he was friends with Michael Ball and he was kind of in fashion or photography and they kind of linked up and then they.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Started discussing the idea and then I think Holden brought Rasan in because Rasan was like on, basically what is education first?

• 1:12:35Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Rasan was on that team, which is another thing where like

• 1:12:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Teams disappear and now it's education first. At the time, I think it was TIA craft. Um, so he brought Rasan in and they basically built this California super team.

• 1:12:50Rich Roll?

  Right. And what I remember about that, just like observing from a distance, it was, it was sort of like if Von Dush was a cycling team.

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  Basically.

• 1:12:59Rich Roll?

  But, but it's almost like in a certain respect, there are aspects of it that provided a template for what you would eventually do because they were doing things like it was all rock and roll. Like we're going to break the rules and we're going to be the bad boys of cycling and we're going to do this, do things our way. And some of that worked and ultimately it seems like that whole thing flamed out for a bunch of

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think

• 1:13:22Rich Roll?

  reasons, but

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  I think that there was a lot of positives to be pulled from that. Cycling rejected it super hard because it wasn't your, because my, when I went to sign my contract for rock racing, there was a model in Michael's office and they were having a conversation. I was just like sitting in because his, I was like, yo, my meeting is about to be over with this girl. Uh, just sit right here and then we'll figure it out. And then I remember like what, seeing this, uh, motorcycle helmet in his office. And I connected that motorcycle helmet with like Megan Fox had worn that helmet in the Transformer movies.

• 1:13:57Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  And I was like, is that what I think it is kind of thing? You know what I mean? So it was like, and you walk through his office and there's like models everywhere, there's clothing everywhere. And like, that's what rock racing was, right? There was this, there was this understanding that cycling is cooler than people are giving it credit for being. The traveling, the, the, the team bus, you're, you're

• 1:14:23Rich Roll?

  The bus was like, yeah, it was like a party going on at the team bus.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  Crazy, like, uh, like. It was just really crazy. So I think there was a lot of really good things that came out of that. And that really shaped my perception of cycling, which was a good and a bad thing. Cause like when I went over to Live Strong, what a cyclist was to me was a superstar. And I was like, oh yeah, like all cyclists are superstars. Everybody on the team got treated like really well. And like, we would be going to like these massive parties and stuff.

• 1:14:53Rich Roll?

  Right. It was very like LA, like the bus, you would see the bus and the team like all over LA. Like on Mulholland, like in Beverly Hills, like in places where you're not expecting to see.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, we had these mass, we had these Escalades, like we had a bunch of Escalades. We had a Lamborghini team follow car. It was, it was incredible, man. So like in my head, I was like, oh, this is, yeah, I'm like, this is what it is to be a professional cyclist. This is crazy. Yes. This is what I signed up for. Jesus, thank you very much. And then when I went to Live Strong, it was like this fully European structured team. And I was like, this is not cycling.

• 1:15:33Rich Roll?

  Right. Just to like, explain to people what that means. Like it's sort of like you're in the farm system and you get called up and the Livestock, the Trek Live Strong, like U23 team is kind of the ticket to the big leagues, right? Like if you, that was like the team at the time for the young kids who were coming up and a huge opportunity for any young cyclist, right? But then it just becomes a whole different world that you sour on pretty quickly.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Well, the guys, the guys that I was on team, like Alex Dousset was my teammate. He literally just, he won a stage.

• 1:16:04Rich Roll?

  He won stage eight yesterday in the Giro.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  He won a stage of the Giro.

• 1:16:07Rich Roll?

  So when you see that, like I know you were like a, you know, you were a domestique for Taylor Finney. Like these are like the superstars of the sport. Like when you see Alex winning a stage of the Giro, do you think like, maybe I could have, maybe I should have stayed? Or are you like, I'm good?

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Nah, I'm good. Now I'm good. I'm still friends with most of my teammates. I love those guys. They're incredible. Alex was like the, the definition of professionalism. Like, I think he was probably the most professional guy on the team, which is like, I'm so proud and happy that after all these years, he has a bunch of British time trial national championships, but he hasn't won a big stage like that yet.

• 1:16:46Rich Roll?

  He won, well, he won a stage of the Giro a couple of years ago, right? I think the time trial?

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  It's a time trial. Yeah, it was a time trial. But like, it was funny. I was watching his interview and they were like, is this better than winning a time trial? And he was like, way better, like way better. And I would agree because the time trial is like, it's a time trial when you're in a race and you're, you know, battling against a hundred and twenty, a hundred and forty other dudes and you come out on top. Like, it's just a different vibe because you're in this, this moving game where a time trial is like really structured.

• 1:17:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And reality check, like he, he's still looking for a team. Like, that's how hard it is that a guy like that who just won a stage of the Giro, doesn't have a home for next year. Now he will.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Nah, I'm assuming, yeah, I'm assuming now he will. But like, he has a lot of stuff going on too. Like, he does like really, him and his wife do like really cool, like just videos. They have like really good, they have a really good social media presence. And like, I feel like maybe that's like one of those things where like, people in, at the top of cycling don't take kindly to that kind of stuff. Like, oh, you have your own identity, you have your own thing. Like, it's not really, he's, he's current British time trial champion. How could he not have a job? That doesn't even make sense.

• 1:18:00Rich Roll?

  And it's job security to have that, right? If you have an audience and a following, then you're bringing value

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  You would think.

• 1:18:06Rich Roll?

  to that organization.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you would think. But yeah, Alex was like the epitome of, of professionalism. And like, there's a couple of other guys, like I think this guy Jesse Surg, he's a New Zealand kid. When I got to that team, I think I was twenty or twenty-one, and he had already had an Olympic, he already had an Olympic silver medal or something, which is crazy. That was that team where like Taylor Finney, Jesse, we had two Ben Kings. One of the Ben Kings is currently on NTT, I think. And there's a couple of other like, really, really good guys. So I stepped into that team and I was like, Well, I kind of fell in between. There was like the guys that were being prepped for Pro Tour,

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  and then there was the guys that were kind of younger and kind of getting in, and I kind of just fell between there in talent and in kind of like understanding of what it was. But there was such a culture shock going from what Rock Racing was and what my idea of being a professional athlete was to being on this development team. And not only that, we did our team camp with Radio Shack, which was Lance's team at the time. And while we're separate, like being in the same building, same hotel, and kind of seeing how they interact, like having bike fittings at the same time as them, it was kind of like this moment where I was like, whoa,

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  like, this doesn't seem that tight. You know what I mean? I was like, this doesn't, this is not what I thought it was. So it was a

• 1:19:36Rich Roll?

  Just because of the, like, the energy and the vibe of the whole thing?

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  Just because of the energy and the vibe of the whole thing. It was so stiff and so boring, and no one was, no one felt happy. Lance felt happy because Lance is Lance, but everyone else kind of felt like they were like just there. You know what I mean? Like, they were like there because they had to be there rather than like they had the best job in the world. You know what I mean? Which is like, to me, like, traveling the world and racing your bike and getting to go to these amazing coffee shops and fantastic restaurants. Like, I thought that was what it was. I thought that was the life of a cyclist. And kind of, it was like this reality check where it wasn't that at all. You know what I mean? It wasn't going to these parties that they were giving away Xboxes at. It wasn't, you know what I mean? It wasn't

• 1:20:22Rich Roll?

  You're riding like cobblestones in the rain.

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't, like, dude, we took a private jet to New York one, one year to do a race. A private jet. I never flew private before. I remember being like, they're not going to ask me to turn my cellphone off? This is fantastic. I'm a text, okay? Because I can. Um, that's what my experience on Rock Racing was. And then to go to Live Strong, which was the development team, to Radio Shack, which looked like this team that was like so Boring and so traditional. I was just like, I don't know. I was like, I don't know.

• 1:20:58Rich Roll?

  You get it. So how long do you, how long were you on that team? A couple of years?

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  A year. I was on the national team one year, which I raced in Europe and then I was on Little Strong for one year. Uh, and I just, when I went over to you, I was in Europe for two months. Uh, and, and after that two months, I was just.

• 1:21:14Rich Roll?

  Pulled the plug.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  I was over it. I was like, man, like.

• 1:21:17Rich Roll?

  People must've been like, what are you doing?

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think so. I, I think something that I, the, the year that I pulled the plug was, I pulled the plug in maybe like May. And I think that I should've just gotten through that year in Europe, but I was just so over it, man. It was like not, there was no life over there. And, you know, be, growing up in South Central, it kind of understanding that you live this life of, of having to be very careful and like not really be, being able to enjoy being a kid. Because you're always looking over your shoulder and you're always making sure you're not in the wrong place at the wrong time.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  When I got over to Europe and I realized that like, that life felt worse. You know what I mean? From where I came from? Then, then living in the hood. I was like, I'm not gonna do this. Like, I'm not gonna conform myself to where I feel like I have no voice. I feel like I have no value. Um, I'm not gonna live over here and be treated a certain way to say that I'm pro. I was like, there has to be another way.

• 1:22:26Rich Roll?

  And nobody in that situation that you can share that perspective with.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:22:32Rich Roll?

  Understand where you're coming from.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Like all the kids, like the, the American kids that were over there with me at the time wanted to be Europeans so bad. You know what I mean? They wanted to be Belgian or Dutch so bad.

• 1:22:43Rich Roll?

  Like breaking away, like.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  A hundred, exactly. No, it's, that's exactly it. And like, I was, so it was hard to, it was hard to communicate with them.

• 1:22:52Rich Roll?

  Where's the escalades?

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was hard to communicate with them. It was hard to understand why they were willing to not say anything or, or.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  It was just really hard to understand why it was that the way that it was. And I was just like, nah, you know what? There has to be another way.

• 1:23:10Rich Roll?

  Do you think if you, if there had been no rock racing and you came up with a more traditional outfit and then went to Europe? That it would have been different? Like you got, it was almost like you got spoiled.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  No, a hundred percent. Yeah, I would have probably just like, I would, ah, maybe I would, wouldn't be in the sport. I think I would have probably.

• 1:23:28Rich Roll?

  Well, when you came back from Europe, you, you, you.

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  I checked into college.

• 1:23:32Rich Roll?

  Like, so you didn't, you, you were like, that, at that time, did you think you were totally done?

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was done. It just wasn't, it wasn't fun. I wasn't having fun. I was like, I'd rather go to college and like, you know, live the college life. You know what I mean? I wanted to like, hang out with girls and go to parties and stuff. I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna spend 25 hours on my, exactly. Worrying about my weight every day. Nah, it's over. I got a motorcycle apartment and a, and a job. Went to college, man.

• 1:24:05Rich Roll?

  And that was it? But it was Corey that pulled you back?

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, Corey, I just started getting, uh, he was just starting to get pretty good.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  So just talking to him again, I was just, the second time he saved me, I was like, hey, man.

• 1:24:18Rich Roll?

  But hold up, but before that, like, are you like, listen, man, here's what you're in for?

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  Corey's super stubborn. If you know anything about him.

• 1:24:25Rich Roll?

  How much younger is he than you?

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  Four years. He was gonna do what he wanted to do anyway. I, I can't, I can't, I can't tell Corey anything. I can kind of like steer him and then he has to experience it. So he was just gonna go for it anyway. He was like, ah, it's fine. I understand. He's kind of a hermit anyway, so he'd probably do well over in Europe because he's like very to himself anyway. He just, he loves his training. I live for racing. I don't really care about training. Like, training is something that I have to do. Corey like loves his training. He loves looking at his numbers. He loves figuring out how to get better in a way that's very computed or like very structured. And I'm like, I, I'll put in the hours. I'll do my training to the best of my abilities.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  And then when we show up to the race, I'll, I'll turn it on. And like, that's. Always been out racing in shape. The first like two months of the year, I'm like struggling in races and like trying to find my fitness. Uh, but then come, you know, May, June, I, I, I typically start flying, which is why me and Corey work really well because he's always flying. Um, and then when I come toward the middle of the year, it's kind of a nice uh break for him because he kinda carries the team in the beginning. Uh, but I couldn't, I couldn't tell him like, hey, man, it sucks over there. He's like, no, it's good. Like it's fine.

• 1:25:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  Like I'm to myself anyway.

• 1:25:43Rich Roll?

  To get you to come back in.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  I just wanted to.

• 1:25:46Rich Roll?

  Just gonna help him?

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just thought I was gonna help him as far as like giving him the tools of like training and like just some of the things that I learned as far as um how to build fitness, um, how to be the best uh rider on the bike. Trying to teach him tactics and, and understanding of the racing and how you can take advantage of uh being smart rather than being strong. So I just wanted to like basically give him as much knowledge as I could before I like kinda peace out. And then, yeah, and then that year.

• 1:26:19Rich Roll?

  But when did it click in for you? Like, oh, I, I forgot that I enjoyed this or like this is.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  When race season came around, like race season came around again and I had been focusing so much on road racing uh and, and training the year before.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  The next year, when I got to do some of the bigger crits in the country, that's when it really was like, oh no, like this is actually sick. Right? It was like this, this year of like no pressure because I was like, I just joined like a local team that was gonna go out to do some of the national stuff, but not a full season. Um, and I just had so much fun. Like I wasn't even winning anything. I was just like being competitive and like running into people and like almost crashing and I was like, yeah.

• 1:27:00Rich Roll?

  But there's something about that, like going into it without any expectations other than like, I'm just here to have fun and enjoy it and support my brother. That allowed you to connect with like why it was meaningful to you in the first place.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I had to like go through figuring out that. So I knew I didn't want to be pro in Europe. So then I had to go through this process of figuring out why I didn't want to be pro in America because like it also sucked. And I was like, damn, man, like, I'm just trying to like, have fun. And everyone's ruining the fun of this sport, and I don't understand why. I have saw glimpses of uh, success and glimpses of like, promise as far as like, what the sport could be. Uh, but people just kept like, uh, the, like I said, there's this active suppression of like, some, anyone getting too big or anyone gaining any kind of influence with sponsors.

• 1:27:49Rich Roll?

  So weird.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  And it's like this, this massive control thing. So I was riding for teams where, I rode for this team one year where we had, uh, I think we had like, green helmets. We had green and blue helmets. The, the jersey was like, maroon and gunmetal. And then we had like, yellow shoes. And then like, a white and yellow bike. And I was like, it's a clown outfit. I was like, this is a clown outfit. I can't wear this. I was like, dude. When you put on your uniform, when you're playing football or basketball, you put on your uniform, there's a point of pride of wearing that uniform. You're like, yes, this is business time. You train in whatever.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  But when you put your race jersey on, it's like time for business. You're proud of it and you're going out to, you're going into battle. And you have your like, armor on. Cycling isn't like that, man. Or has it been like that traditionally? You put on this jersey full of sponsors and you're like, nothing matches.

• 1:28:49Rich Roll?

  That is weird, but then there also are all these weird like unwritten rules about like sock height and like, you know, the, whether the, the sunglasses go, you know, over. Like all this kind of bullshit that, you know, for people that are getting into cycling, you know, they just, they get, they get intimidated or ridiculed.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. They, yeah, cause people don't know how to like, express certain things. If it's cool to wear your glasses over your helmet strap, then relay that information in a way that's positive, right? Relay that information in the way that's, that's like, hey man, let me help you out. But like, instead, it's kind of like, oh, look at this.

• 1:29:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  Look at this idiot, or look at this Fred, or look at this whatever. It's like, Looking for every moment to kind of like down, like push someone down rather than kind of helping someone because you have this shared and common interest. So it is ridiculous. Like psych, who cares, man? Like, get out of here.

• 1:29:46Rich Roll?

  It's a big deal, though. People get all caught up in that. But there is like, listen, when you're like, look, you're putting on, you know, when you're putting on your armaments, you know, to go into battle, like, and the pride that comes with that, you know, for for even the weekend warrior cyclist, there's a little bit of that, too.

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  I mean, it should be. I think now more than ever, too, especially with like how Rafa kind of came on the scene and like made it cool to like, oh, you need to like, you gotta care about kind of what you look like and how you feel.

• 1:30:14Rich Roll?

  Except that shit's so crazy expensive.

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Hopefully, you know, once you buy something like that and you have it for a long time. And if you're like, that's why I love how simplistic like a lot of their designs are because they're classic.

• 1:30:29Rich Roll?

  They're not gonna go out of style the following season.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:30:32Rich Roll?

  Right. I'm like that duck kit.

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or like if you buy a jersey with a ton of sponsors on it, not only could those sponsors change from that team, but like, what if you don't want to rock those sponsorships anymore? What if something comes out with that, that company that you don't agree with anymore? It's like, you're not gonna want to wear that. And so now you spent like a hundred dollars in this jersey that you don't wear anymore versus like the hundred and fifty you spent in a Rafa jersey, but you can always wear it. It's always, it like basically becomes an asset.

• 1:31:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's, there's the high quality of it and there's the aesthetic of it. But also, they did, they worked very hard to create culture around it. Like their retail stores are an experience. You go in there and you get a sense for the flavor of the lifestyle.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  And it's, it's a lot about lifestyle and community. And like, that's what they do. That's like incredible, man. Like. For me, being able to go into a Rafa store and kind of just chat it up with like a bunch of like their regular customers is like, that's so dope. And the fact that you have something like that where you can have a coffee, like when I lived in LA, I would always end a lot of my rides at Rafa and get like a coffee and like they used to have like avocado toast and I was like, perfect. And I should just sit there for like maybe an hour and just, you know, people are constantly coming in and out of that. That's so important for community where people have this kind of hub where they, you never know who you're gonna stumble upon when you walk in there like,

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  TJ and Garden was the white jersey in the Tour de France. He, he's been in there before. Taylor Finney's been in there before. The national champion, Alex House.

• 1:32:11Rich Roll?

  House, yeah.

• 1:32:11Speaker 01

  Has been in there. Like, that's crazy. Imagine being able to go to a basketball court where they give away or where they sell Gatorades, let's say, and LeBron just happens to be on a court. One day, you're like, anybody else, is anybody else looking at LeBron James?

• 1:32:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that's the cool thing about cycling and multisport in general. Like, I just know, you know, training in the Santa Monica Mountains, you know, I live like, you know, right in the middle of all of that and you can be out, especially in the winter months and you'll see these European teams out on training camps and they're all staying in the area.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  Who's won the Tour de France?

• 1:32:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like, I've seen George Hincapi ride his bike past my house, you know, like, what?

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 1:32:56Rich Roll?

  Or Mark Cavendish or, you know, these people like, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's wild that that's the case and they're accessible and you see them on television racing the Tour de France, but they're just dudes.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  They're, and, and that's like the best part about cycling is that like, that's definitely a part of why it's so cool is that. Another thing is, not only that, is like, there's so many different types of people. For me, coming from South Central, getting into cycling and being introduced to like all of these people from different backgrounds and, and, and professional like kind of industries, it opened my mind up to what was possible. And like, I think,

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  For me, getting more kids of color into the sport where they can just have that understanding and opening of perspective and like having their minds kind of like, you know, you are more than what the statistics say you are. You know, I grew up in a place where we didn't have the best education system. We didn't have like a lot of inspiration to be more than, you know, what you saw people being successful in the hood doing, which was like drug dealing or whatever, or hustling or whatever. So to get into a, to get into this sport where there's doctors, there's lawyers, there's people that do things like, that you never even thought were jobs, like, you know, like filmmaking, a set design and

• 1:34:22Speaker 01

  all this other stuff to, that own businesses. And to be able to have access to just those conversations is incredible. It like completely changed like what I wanted out of life. Because no longer was all like, oh man, my life is pretty limited. Like what I'm going to do, like become a teacher or become like a, like the job, the job field when you're growing up in LAUSD feels very limiting. And getting into a space where people do all kinds of things kind of changed everything for me. And I think that even just that, putting that in front of some kids, man, that could like be the difference between, you know, them ending up in jail or them ending up with a, with a marketing career and working

• 1:35:07Speaker 01

  at a brand like Specialized. And like, I think that's, that's extremely important. Outside, everybody's not going to be a bike racer. Everyone's not going to get it. But that doesn't mean that the industry of cycling isn't rich in opportunity.

• 1:35:21Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent. But they have to be able to see somebody that they can relate to and identify with.

• 1:35:27Speaker 01

  Right. Someone has to make it okay.

• 1:35:28Rich Roll?

  You know, you're, you can be, you know, Rasan for, you know, the, the, the way in which Rasan mentored you and you now have the ability to do that for, you know, all of these young people. Because cycling, you know, it's like golf. It's so inaccessible. And it's like, these bikes are freaking expensive. So you're going to take these kids to the Rafa store. I mean, it's like, you might as well take them to Rodeo Drive or something like

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but at the same, so I've been trying to attack this issue with the, the understanding, you know, like we're right now in a transition period where. We're going from rim brake bikes to disc brake bikes and rim brake stuff almost has no value now. So like that entry point is like way less now. And that's what was so cool about the fixie scene is that somebody will give you a fixed gear bike. You can get a fixed gear bike for a couple hundred bucks. That's a pair of Jordans. Right? Like if you want to do it, it's someone that you like is doing it. You'll figure out a way to like obtain that, right? So you start, when the fixie scene got massive. You know, it was cool for me to kind of step into that world um and really um

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  kind of be in front of those kids because I was like, I would be way, obviously way better than them. And they'd be like, dude, like, how are you so good? And they'd be like, oh, I'm so good because I ride road. Now there are a lot of bikes that you can get like the LA and there's a lot of aluminum bikes that you can get that are not free, but like definitely like inexpensive. And if you can buy a secondhand dude, you could probably, I'm sure you can find a aluminum bike out there for like a couple hundred bucks. And that's, that's the, that's the entry point.

• 1:37:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the fixie scene seems like the, a great like unwrap for this whole thing. And that was really the kind of spark that brought you back into the, like you went through a couple of these team situations. And your brother didn't get re-upped with the team and you were, but it was like, then you got into the fixie scene and that kind of changed things for you.

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  The fixie scene, there was, now there was purpose, right? It was more than like, oh, I got a race and I got to get results and I got to try to win nationals. Now it was like, man, like I could like help a bunch of people kind of discover this like really cool sport and like travel outside of their city and travel outside of their state and kind of open their mind to something else.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  Something different. So it just became like more fulfilling that when I would show up to fixie events, like I would. See people that I went to school with. Like I went to school with someone that reminds me of this guy. Or like the culture within the fixie scene was felt just felt more authentic and more real and more down to earth and like less judgmental. And it was just everything I went out of cycling. Like I wanted to travel and the racing and and the winning and all that stuff. But I also wanted to kind of have that culture and have those conversations and like have that comfortable home environment. So I really wanted to like merge them together. And I was like, how, how can I do that?

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  And that's where like everything kind of was rekindled for me. And I was like, okay, now I have purpose. Now I can take everything that I've learned from cycling, good and bad. And I can like maybe help some people have an understanding of how they can use this to their benefit or just take something from the sport like I had taken from the sport. And that could be traveling the country, that could be meeting certain people, that could be a different perspective or that could be going, trying to go pro. So I just wanted to share all of that.

• 1:39:02Rich Roll?

  And race results are only one small piece of that whole thing.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  Exactly. I think a lot of people get caught up in one or the other. Like, yeah, we do a lot of marketing and like social media is important, but like winning is also important. Training is also important. Giving back is also.

• 1:39:16Rich Roll?

  The winning is really, the winning is important only for the purpose of, you know, creating aspiration for the people that you're trying to help.

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:39:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. So when I, when I first started winning races or my perspective on winning was always that it came with a responsibility. And maybe I think that a lot of that came from Hassan because he gave back to me a lot and he spent a lot of time with me that he didn't have to spend. So my mind was, you know, when I start winning and when I get this massive platform and when I'm good enough to influence other people, it's my job to do the best that I can to give back to, to someone that like I was giving back to basically.

• 1:39:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and then telescoping out and like looking at the world of cycling from 10,000 feet, like, there's a lot of work to be done, man. There's one dude, one black dude at the Tour de France, right? That French guy.

• 1:40:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, Kevin Reza.

• 1:40:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, Gregory Bouge is a French track sprinter. There's a couple of African riders.

• 1:40:18Rich Roll?

  It's like Five Guys on the world tour.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's the kid, a kid named Nicholas that rides for NTT that's really good. There's a couple of like incredible guys, but again, if you, if you see it from my perspective, they're not really given the green light to like go win something, you know what I mean? Like, Daniel, I can't pronounce his last name, but Daniel was a kid that raced for what is the NTT squad now. He was in a polka dot jersey at the Tour de France, and he doesn't have a pro contract anymore because I'm assuming that he asked for a bigger contract, right? Because he had worn a polka dot jersey at the Tour de France, which is a massive deal.

• 1:41:04Speaker 01

  And they were probably like, nah.

• 1:41:06Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  Nah, you, you take what we give you. Like, we're, we're granting you, we're giving you the opportunity to like, get into that jersey. That was, that was us. That was, that wasn't you. So he doesn't have a pro tour team now.

• 1:41:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And the organization just really, you know, stumbling over itself to appropriately deal with Black Lives Matter in any kind of reasonable, responsible way.

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  And they can't because they just aren't on, they just don't believe in it. They, they, it's, it's, they're disconnected from it and they don't, it's not their problem. And like, that's how they handle it. Like, it's not our problem. We don't have that problem here.

• 1:41:43Rich Roll?

  And it seems like Kevin did only a little, like, only what he could do, which was very little in the construct of like being on this team and what he's up against.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah, it's.

• 1:41:53Rich Roll?

  So how do you, like, how do you, like, beyond like what you're doing with Legion, like, how does that problem get solved?

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  For me, I don't. I have no intentions on trying to convince anyone of anything. I spent like a lot of my career waiting for people to do the right thing and try to like basically show people like have these conversations where I'm like, hey, man, like, these are the reasons why either this is wrong or something needs to be done. I just, I would just build it myself. I don't want to waste any more energy. Either they get it or not, and if they get it, then fantastic, but we'll lead by example and we'll lead by continuing to do good things rather than like waiting for someone to do the right thing or trying to convince someone to do the right thing.

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  Like European, I'll say this over and over again, European racing is fantastic for Europe and they can have that. Like, I love watching it, I super support it. But what we're doing here in America, I think with Criterion races is just underutilized. And I think that there's a space where we can build something that's as influential, if not more influential, as far as like having a diverse kind of landscape and culture. And then from there, we'll just raise the standard and either they keep up with that standard or they don't, but it's not, I don't think it's my job and I don't think it's, you know, and I think that they've had a crazy amount of time to address the situation and they haven't. So I'm not going to continue to beat a dead horse.

• 1:43:24Speaker 01

  Like, you know, it's funny, what I've learned is that when you start to kind of move things forward, people all of a sudden understand what was happening. But if you're asking them to do it versus being the example and actually doing it, you get two different results.

• 1:43:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, from a spectator perspective and like an audience enjoyment, you know, point of view, Criterion races are just superior. So like, what are you gonna, like, for these tours, like, you go and sit there all day and watch them ride by for 10 seconds? Like, I don't understand.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  But that's the thing is that they basically, they basically tailgate and that's a part of their culture. I'm sure it's so fun.

• 1:44:06Rich Roll?

  But if you're at a Criterion, you're watching, you can see this whole thing unfolding and you're seeing these guys go by many times a day and it's, there's something electric about it.

• 1:44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're watching the race mutate, you're feeling the energy of the peloton. Like, it's just a different world. It's way more exciting and riveting and kind of like. There's crashes happening, but there's also like you're seeing the teamwork. You're seeing everything happen in a way that like you just it's just harder to understand unless you know everything about cycling.

• 1:44:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  Unless you unless you have an under real understanding of cycling. It's hard to watch that on TV and then you're watching it for four or five hours. You know what I mean? In America, it's hard to shut down cities to allow a bike race to pass through it. But what you can do is shut down a city block and like barrier it off. Make it feel like and look like a block party and then watch these dudes ride around that circuit at 30 miles an hour.

• 1:45:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  It's it's it's a it feels like an event and it and it's an experience. And that's why I think that Criterium racing, at least here, is the future.

• 1:45:11Rich Roll?

  And they take place in urban areas.

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:14Rich Roll?

  Where you can create visibility for the kind of kids that you're, you know, trying to entice into this world. And, you know, I I do think that that's like the way the way forward.

• 1:45:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's perfect because we work with a brand, we work with a nonprofit OutRide, which is like allows us to go into schools and kind of just tell the story of like why racing is cool, why Criterium racing is cool. But like, you know, moving into next year, you know, after hopefully everything with COVID starts to kind of clear up and get better, at some point, we'll be back in the schools at these big events and being able to invite them out. So not only do we tell them like why cycling is cool and like what our story is and how anything is possible, they can come out to these races and kind of bang on the boards and experience that race and that energy and that vibe. And I think that that has the potential to like change a lot of.

• 1:46:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you and you being like a strong presence in that in that world and carrying yourself in a certain way where these young people look at you and they're like, I want to be like that.

• 1:46:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:46:13Rich Roll?

  And that's where the aesthetics of the whole thing are super important.

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:46:18Rich Roll?

  You know, like the kit is has to be dope.

• 1:46:20Speaker 01

  And everything, like Corey shows up to races, man, I'm surprised he hasn't worn a suit to a race yet.

• 1:46:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  Like he shows up to races and he's like full flight, like same way like.

• 1:46:30Rich Roll?

  Like Lewis Hamilton or something.

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  Exactly, the same way you see NBA players walking into the like the arenas or like whatever their fit is, like that's how he shows up to races, that's how I show up to races and like, not only is the kit important, but like how when people see you off the bike, that's also important, like how are you carrying yourself like? You have to look the part. You have to be professional. You have to like, people have to wanna be you in a way, right? And they have to, they have to imagine themselves like, "Yeah, man, I could live that life. That sounds, that looks dope." And like, in cycling, it's like, anti-culture. It's like people where, people carry themselves with like, "You know why I'm cool? Because I don't care." And it's like,

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  who, like dude, who's, who respects that? Like, dress, dress nicely, dress appropriate, care, like, have some kind of swag because, at the end of the day, like, that's what's gonna, I know for me, that's what's gonna get people like me into it. Right? Like, if some kid sees me wearing like, Birkenstocks and like cargo shorts, they're gonna be like,

• 1:47:37Speaker 01

  "Nah."

• 1:47:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  Nah. So, "I don't know what's wrong with you, sir, but that's not it." And like, that's, you know, it's, as crazy as it sounds, that's super important to, to getting people inspired and wanting to do it.

• 1:47:51Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. What's the, uh, like, when it's all written, the, the legacy that you wanna leave behind with Legion and, and like your career? Like, what's the, the impact?

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  The Legion was the first step in kind of learning and feeling out what it's gonna take to completely change the sport. And I think by having control of like, what teams look like, what, what events look like, I think having that control and power will allow for me to, make sure that cycling turns into this thing that's very cultured. So, I, I hope that what we leave behind as far as a legacy is this space where people from every walk of life can come into this space and just feel comfortable and have

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  An opportunity to not only make a living, but maybe become a superstar and kind of use that and and hopefully create something where they can elevate what we've done and take it to the next level.

• 1:48:59Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  So I always think about it like this, the NBA was nothing 50 years ago. Like the NBA was terrible 50 years ago. Why can't you build something within cycling that in 50 years is valuable and you have all of these opportunities for all of these people?

• 1:49:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I love that. What is the the message that you want to leave for the young person who is listening to this thinking?

• 1:49:31Speaker 01

  Go do 70 miles, no food.

• 1:49:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, don't eat. Wear your boxer shorts under your under your cycling bib.

• 1:49:39Speaker 01

  I think it would be, cycling is a freeing thing. Even if you don't want to be pro, it's something that could change your life if you give it a chance. And once you start to ride, pay less attention to kind of what you have and more attention to kind of putting your head down and putting in the work. Like persistence is something that has gotten me to where I am. I'm 31 years old now. Being persistent and really believing in something and doing it wholeheartedly and not being afraid to put in the work. Like, once you're doing something that you love doing, you're gonna be okay, you're gonna be fine.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  Stop worrying so much about, for me, I see a lot of kids that are worrying about training like the Europeans or training like a pro when they're like 17 or like riding the best stuff. Like, that's not important. What's important is enjoying the journey that you get to go on in in ending up wherever you're gonna end up in the sport. And hopefully you end up either, you know, in a job in the sport or in a as a pro, whatever the case may be, meeting someone that leads to a job opportunity, whatever, enjoy the journey. Because building those memories is ultimately what's gonna shape how you feel and look back at, you know, your life, right? And and what that means to you.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Like, that journey is what's important, being proud at the end of the day that you got to whatever, travel.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  Whatever the case may be, focus on the journey, focus on the moment, stop worrying so much about what you think success is, right? What you think, what you think is cool in the moment. Just focus on the journey and every day you get to, if you get to ride your bike, enjoy that because a lot of people don't get to do something as cool as ride their bike every day.

• 1:51:37Rich Roll?

  It's a gift, man. And I would say that, other than the conversations that I get to have because of this podcast, the conversations that I've had on the bike with, with people are some of the most amazing conversations I've ever had with anyone because you're out for hours and you really get to know people. And that's where the community comes from, that one-on-one interaction with other people. And then, in addition to that, there is no machine that has been created by man to create suffering more than the bike.

• 1:52:08Speaker 01

  It's hard to be mad.

• 1:52:10Rich Roll?

  And suffering is the teacher, you know, like, that, that is your guru, man.

• 1:52:14Speaker 01

  It's hard to be mad on a bike.

• 1:52:15Rich Roll?

  And you can learn everything you need to know about life from suffering on a bicycle.

• 1:52:19Speaker 01

  It's incredibly humbling.

• 1:52:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:21Speaker 01

  It's, and I'm sure you get that in other spaces, but like, on the bike, it's incredibly humbling when you're three, four hours into a ride and you're just like, it's you.

• 1:52:30Rich Roll?

  You meet yourself.

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, you meet your, and it's you and you. It's incredible. So yeah, you're dead on with that.

• 1:52:37Rich Roll?

  Right. Thanks, man. It's great talking to you. I appreciate it. It's, it's really, it's beautiful and inspiring what you built. And if there's anything I can do to be of service to your mission, I hope that you will reach out to me. I just think it's really great and I just wish you all the best.

• 1:52:53Speaker 01

  I'm excited. I think it's just the beginning, but, you know, like, it's crazy because nothing has been laid out. We're just really learning. We're going to make mistakes. But, you know, at the end of the day, we're just trying our best to create something that is different and can change the future for some, someone, some kid, some, someone, somewhere. If we can, if we can accomplish that, man, it's a job well done.

• 1:53:21Rich Roll?

  If you're digging on Justin, what's the best place to connect with you? Instagram?

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably Instagram. Just Williams, J U S W I L L I A M Z instead of S. That's everything that we do, all the events kind of get funneled through there, so.

• 1:53:37Rich Roll?

  And are you still, you had like a GoFundMe up for the team, right?

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I gotta close that down. Yeah, it's pretty mu- it's done its job.

• 1:53:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:53:44Speaker 01

  We started off trying to raise $50,000. I think we ended up raising like $120,000, which is fantastic because we get to put that toward a couple of surprise things that are happening, but also junior day camps. So we want to make sure that when kids get to, you know, it's really important to me to have that relationship with Alex and Nico off of the bike. And I want to make sure that every time a kid meets up with another kid in the sport, it isn't competition. Like they can like play cornhole together and build those relationships off the bike because ultimately that's kind of what kept me in the sport is having those friendships young, when I was younger.

• 1:54:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:22Speaker 01

  We get to put that toward that. We get to put that toward some other events. We get to put that toward our junior team. And like I said, there's a couple of surprise things that we're going to put that money into. So it's been kind of incredible to get that support from the community and understand that, you know, people feel the same way that we feel.

• 1:54:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool. How's your brother?

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's all right miserable, making me, trying to make me miserable. No, he's good. You know, Corey was going to have a special year this year, man. Like it was going to be insane to watch. People have always put us into boxes. You're a criterion racer, you're a sprinter. I think that was the worst thing that I've ever been told is that you're a sprinter. I'm not a sprinter. I'm a person that navigates, finishes very well. And the same thing with Corey, like he's not a sprinter. He's a, he's 140 pounds, 45 pounds and, you know, he could do everything. So they've always put this in.

• 1:55:22Rich Roll?

  I didn't realize you had like 40 pounds on him.

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  Like 40 pounds, dude, it's crazy. But he's just capable of so much and I think he would have like blown people away this year. Like in road racing, in criterion racing and everything. And like I said, people continuously try to put us in this box. So it would have been like a rude awakening for some people where when he stepped out or he was like left or he was there at the end of like a hard day or on a climb. So that'll have to wait until next year, but he's, he's, he's hungry, man.

• 1:55:53Rich Roll?

  So 2021 is gonna be his breakout year.

• 1:55:56Speaker 01

  If you thought, if you thought last year was impressive, man, it's 2021 is gonna be crazy.

• 1:56:03Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. Well, come back and talk to me again sometime. And actually with Knox here, I was like, I'm, I'm sitting here thinking like, I want to hear a podcast between the two of you guys. That would be a conversation I'd like to hear.

• 1:56:14Speaker 02

  Because it was wild. Cycling was my first passion.

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 1:56:19Speaker 02

  You talk about, I mean, then I was doing the math and I was like, oh, the year he was born, I crashed like every race. So what we're talking about is so crazy. So I was stoked that I got to sit in and just like, see what the best of the best is doing right now and just revisit some old memories. And I wish you all on the journey, man. I like moved to Crunchwrap District, just a small part, just to kind of see if he was around the way riding.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool, cool, cool. All right. To be continued. Thanks. Peace.

• 1:56:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, dope.

• 1:56:55Rich Roll?

  What do you think? I thought that was a very solid podcast. Good one. Next up is a roundtable with Justin and Knox together. I love those guys. I really do want to hear a conversation between the two of them. In the meantime, do me a solid and give Justin a follow on the socials, at Just William Z. That's J U S William Z on Instagram and Twitter. Let him know how this one landed for you. Also be sure to pick up my new book, Voicing Change, shipping globally. I'll even sign it. Available only at richroll.com/vc. And if you're looking to dial up your plate, also check out the Plant Power Meal Planner. That's where it's at. Thousands of customized plant-based recipes at your fingertips with

• 1:57:40Rich Roll?

  access to nutrition coaches. Seven days a week, all integrated with grocery delivery and all for just $1.90 a week. Visit meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media, and you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the show was created by Blake Curtis. Graphics by Jessica Miranda. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Sponsor relationships are managed by DK David Kahn. And theme music, as always, by Tyler Trapper and Hari, my boys. Appreciate the love, you guys.

• 1:58:25Rich Roll?

  Thanks for taking this journey with me, and I will see you back here soon with another episode. As always, you can count on it, set your clock to it. Until then, peace. Plants. Ride your bike. Amaste.