Behind the Scenes Minis: Pope Riot

Holly and Tracy talk about Tracy growing up in a mostly Protestant community with little exposure to Catholicism. They also talk about the Gorsuch family's ties to John Wilkes Booth. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Holly Frey?

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• 1:37Speaker 02

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• 2:05Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:16Holly Frey?

  Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Frey.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

• 2:20Holly Frey?

  We talked about Pope Leo XIII this week.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Sure did.

• 2:24Holly Frey?

  These are always tricky because I want to always include as much as I can about, you know, their positions on religion without being,

• 2:37Holly Frey?

  without offering commentary on it. But it's tricky, especially when it fell to you to read some of the more like, super pro old school Catholicism stuff that he wrote.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Right. I more struggled with the grammatical

• 2:55Speaker 02

  construction than like the content. I'm like, I just, you know, I read whatever, whatever we're quoting, I read it. Uh, it's, those are not my personal words that are coming out of my mouth. It's a quote, but like, there were multiple times that there were just, the words were in an order that my brain was really having a hard time with.

• 3:14Holly Frey?

  Yeah. And some of that is that it's translated from Latin.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:18Holly Frey?

  And some of that is that it was translated a long time ago, when it was pretty customary for a lot of English language official documents to be more stilted anyway.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:30Holly Frey?

  I don't know who did those translations, but, um,

• 3:33Speaker 02

  I have so little familiarity with like, any of the like doctrine of the Catholic Church.

• 3:41Holly Frey?

  Oh.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  Because like, I grew up in an area that was overwhelmingly Protestant Christian.

• 3:49Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  I feel like I could count the number of like Catholic students in my school classes in single digits, being one digit, being my one finger, holding it up to count one person. And some of that was because there were Catholic private schools that a lot of the Catholic kids went to, that I would not have known otherwise. But just like, that was overwhelmingly, there were the flavors of Protestantism that were mostly what was represented in my day to day life. So it's like, most of my familiarity is more the things that are. Widely represented in various popular culture, like the fact that the Pope exists

• 4:33Speaker 02

  and confession and monasteries, like you sort of absorb those kinds of ideas through media and whatever. And then when we were getting into things about his documents that he was writing, I was like, none of this is really connecting to things in my brain very well.

• 4:52Holly Frey?

  Right. Yeah, it's interesting, right? I grew up half my, my mother's side of the family, very Roman Catholic. So definitely grew up with that. And it, it was very funny when Pope Leo XIV was announced. Where was I? I was somewhere, I think we were driving home from either the vet's office or like coffee with a friend. And Brian was reading it to me on his phone because I was driving and he was like, oh, he's Pope Leo XIV. And I was like, oh, this is very, this is a very interesting choice. And I was just like spouting off things I knew about Pope Leo XIII to poor Brian, who was like, okay. And

• 5:31Holly Frey?

  I did see a lot of news coverage of Leo XIII that summated him in ways that removed the complications of his papacy. And there is an interesting thing that has emerged in like the last 20 years, where, and even longer, really, probably more like 40 to 50 years, where historians and scholars, you know, in the early half of the 20th century, there was a lot of like, I don't want to say whitewashing because that's not accurate, but there was a lot of writing about him that made him seem much more liberal than he was.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 6:12Holly Frey?

  He was obviously in some ways very progressive and liberal for his time. The fact that there was a Pope. In the early 1900s going, no, workers unions was pretty groundbreaking. But he also, there was a lot of writing that left out how much he was like, nope, we're not going to change the church ever.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:32Holly Frey?

  You gotta straighten up and fly right if you want to be at our party. And it was like, a lot of that gets left out.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:39Holly Frey?

  Yeah. I mean, that doesn't necessarily detract from the progressive things he did.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:44Holly Frey?

  But it, it is a partial picture and it, it oversimplifies the complexity of any human being and particularly a human being that does wield a lot of power, even though he may not have held the political maneuverability in terms of like ruling papal states that prior priests had had. He still was very influential on a huge portion of the global population. And as we mentioned at the end, he was very good at outreach and PR and talking to other people that were not part of the Catholic Church.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:19Holly Frey?

  That had power and, you know, creating relationships with them that he could then.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:24Holly Frey?

  Exert power through. So he's really fascinating to me.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, I was on vacation when the conclave happened and was not really looking at news a lot because I was on vacation.

• 7:38Holly Frey?

  Hooray.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  But I got a push, a push notification on my phone from a group chat that I'm in that just said, white smoke.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  And then like the next time I actually looked at that group chat, just had an enormously long discussion. And I was like, I'm not reading any of this. But a couple of people had, like in my social circle, had pointed to sort of threads of analysis of like this choice of pope and what it could mean and stuff like that. And I was reading through them and I was like, I just. I don't under, I don't know what half of these things that you're talking about are. Like, they were talking about different kind of factions within the church, different movements that had happened.

• 8:24Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  And I was like, I've never heard of any of this at all. Like, it's just not within my scope in a lot of ways.

• 8:32Holly Frey?

  Right. Well, it is really interesting to watch the ways the selection of the Pope has often been a hard shift from what has gone before.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 8:45Holly Frey?

  That was almost one of the more unique things about the selection of Leo XIV is that they actually said, oh, this was Pope Francis's pick? Well, then that's our guy. Like, it wasn't so much like, no, no, we should hard shift to a far more conservative stance than, than Francis had because that was getting us in trouble. Or picking a moderate, like, just so, how quickly that conclave played out and that they picked his guy was really interesting.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was, I was not expecting the, somebody had mentioned, like, oh, the conclave's starting, and I was like, yeah, I'll probably go on for a while. I was 100% wrong in that. This is why I should not talk about things that I have little familiarity with.

• 9:31Holly Frey?

  I mean, the thing is, though, nobody knew. I mean, there were discussions going into that, like, the Second Francis Pass, there was a lot of like, are they gonna, like, rubber band back the other way? Are they gonna try to find someone who's a little middle ground? Are they, now, granted, I do feel like there will be more middle ground than people may be hoping with the new Pope.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 9:54Holly Frey?

  But, um, yeah, it's just, I, the whole thing is fascinating to me. And having been, you know, raised half Catholic, it's super fascinating. Like, when we were in Italy and we were walking through the Vatican Museum, I was losing my mind.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:09Holly Frey?

  And writing down names of Popes as we went for things that I wanted to cover in the future. Leo XIII was one of them.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  So this offered up an opportunity because he is, you know, he gets a lot of like nicknames that are very much like he was a magical unicorn gateway between Catholicism and the new, the new era of industrialization. And I mean, I guess if you really reduce things down, you could say that, yes, but it's so much more complicated and, and more recent scholars have pointed out like, hey, those versions that we read in the 19 teens about his life are really, really adoring. Right, right. Yeah. You know, and he, he's, I'm fascinated, I'm fascinated by it all. Yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 04

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• 15:21Holly Frey?

  We talked about the Christiana incident this week.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm glad that you did this one because it had been lingering on my shortlist literally for years, just hanging out there. Christiana riot with a question mark afterward. Not even researched enough to really think about whether riot was the correct term to use there or not, just there on the list.

• 15:42Holly Frey?

  Yeah, it gets written about in, as we said at the top of the show, the Christiana riot, the Christiana resistance, the Christiana incident. And I think part of the problem is that the actual details of what happened in those, you know, 90 minutes where things were really happening are so messy and confusing that there's almost no way to know what the right thing was, except that we know that the first shots fired were Gorsuch's people.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we like, we've talked in various previous episodes about how often things that are described as quote, "race riots," like that term is woefully incorrect and loaded in terms of describing what actually happened, which was often a white mob attacking a black community that then became described as a race riot.

• 16:36Holly Frey?

  Yes. There's an interesting weird tie in that I discovered that doesn't really fit in the narrative, but I was like, what? So Edward Gorsuch had another son that was younger than Dickinson named Thomas.

• 16:58Holly Frey?

  Thomas went to school with and was friends with a younger boy named John Wilkes Booth.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 17:07Holly Frey?

  Okay. It's one of those things too. This comes up a lot for me. And I imagine it does for you and really anyone that studies history, particularly of the US's earlier years, because it's so populated now that the idea of so many people knowing each other seems absurd. But then you'll read these things and it's like, this person was tied to this person and also knew this person. And I'm like, were there seven people living in the US for a long time? But it really was much smaller in terms of population than it is now. It's hard to consider, even so, that's still a weird coincidence, in my opinion. John Wilkes Booth, just in case anybody doesn't remember, we all remember, but just in case, is the person who assassinated Abraham Lincoln.

• 17:54Holly Frey?

  The wild times, this did become for me such a fascinating look at what all was going on. And I highly recommend if people find this story interesting, that you go read William Parker's story in the Atlantic. It's listed in the show notes as one of the sources. Because he is a character in a way, not in the jovial way that you would often use that term, but like, he sounds like an intense dude. That was very ready to go. If it was like, all right, great. We gotta fight these people. We gotta fight these people. There's no questions about it. And like, there's a phrasing that he used at one point where he was talking about, one of the things that his group of men.

• 18:40Holly Frey?

  And it's very interesting because even in older write-ups and newer, it's often described as a vigilance society, but not very specifically a vigilante society, which is an interesting thing. But that he would basically like, everybody had to like swear their intentions before they would go do a thing like, listen, we all know this guy is giving up people who are gonna get kidnapped and taken away. We have reached a point where we have to burn his house down. You guys all have to swear that you're in for this and that nobody's gonna like turn tail. And he would do that before any of these things, it sounds like. And that to me is just a very fascinating sort of careful way to

• 19:22Holly Frey?

  measure intention and quite thoughtful because at that point he has all of them on some sort of record, like everyone else in the group has witnessed, you said you were gonna do this. We're all doing this. That just fascinated me. Yeah, he, he, he kind of abruptly left his wife though, which makes me sad. I don't know what their relationship was. Right. But I was like, oh, that's a, oh, this is sad ending. All right. They've been through so much. Stay together, make love last. They had a lot of kids together. But you know, everybody's life takes a different path. I don't know what his personal life experience was. I was just thinking, you never know. You never know. Maybe he was miserable. I don't know. I don't know.

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• 20:49Speaker 07

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• 22:13Holly Frey?

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• 22:57Holly Frey?

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• 23:16Speaker 02

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• 24:21Holly Frey?

  I started working on this kind of in a fit and it was in the middle of the night as I'm often working in the middle of the night because my circadian rhythms are weird. And then I was like, took a few hours in and I was like, I should check with Tracy. Because I'm not sure if you had mentioned it at one point in the past, but I was like, I feel like this was one she was thinking about doing.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:41Holly Frey?

  And bless you, you were like, yeah, but I haven't done it, so go ahead.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  I have this list of potential topic episodes. And it's like down at the bottom of a spreadsheet that we use for planning out what we're doing.

• 24:55Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Like what we're recording when. And it's wild to me that we're still using a spreadsheet. I just, I have not thought of a better way to do it to make sure that we have enough episodes recorded to account for upcoming time off. But down below it is just this like huge list of things that I've been thinking about doing. And Cristiano was up near the top of that list. So, it's totally possible that looking at that calendar repeatedly, it's stuck in your head.

• 25:26Holly Frey?

  I probably remembered it, yeah. Yeah, because I keep my list on my phone. Because sometimes I'll do stuff like if I am traveling and I haven't started a show yet, I'll be like, what am I thinking of? I have time on this flight. I could maybe start. Um, and I don't always have my computer with me on those on trips.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Right. I make notes if I'm out about, out and about in the world. Uh, and I see something that seems interesting. A lot of times I will put it into a notes app. The other day, I'm not going to spoil what it was, but the other day I was, I was doing a thing that made me think of something to maybe do as an episode. And so I just emailed myself from my phone.

• 26:07Holly Frey?

  Oh, yeah, I do that all the time.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  With just that one word in the subject line. Like, I'll remember what this means on Tuesday when I return to the office.

• 26:16Holly Frey?

  How often do you not remember what that means?

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Um, I am more likely to lose track of things that are in the notes app, especially if like a really long time has passed between putting something in a note. And then like if I kind of go, I'm running short of ideas. Do I have anything that I didn't transfer over to the list from the notes app? And occasionally I will run into stuff that I will think at first was a topic idea for the show, and it will turn out to be something absolutely unrelated to the podcast.

• 26:49Holly Frey?

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I've done that. You know, sometimes you'll be like, I, I say you, I mean that in the general, not you, Tracy.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 27:00Holly Frey?

  Uh, you know, you'll be like, oh yeah, I'll remember. Of course I'll remember this. This is very important. It's made an impact on me. It's really made an impression on me. I'll never for, what was that? I don't even know this name means.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. When I emailed myself this one word subject line of an email with nothing else, I was like, I'm, am I going to remember what this means? When I get back to work, we'll see.

• 27:20Holly Frey?

  Yeah. Sometimes I do and other times, no. Uh, but I have to write everything down because otherwise some other shiny object will supplant it. And then I won't know what I'm talking about. Uh, or I'll be like, a kitty, look, listen, unrelated to history, unrelated to anything. I'm going to tell you of an amazing thing that happened to me at the airport.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  Great.

• 27:41Holly Frey?

  So, uh, we are coming off of a weekend when I had a lot of people that came into town to spend time with us, which was wonderful. And while I was waiting for one of my friends at the arrivals lobby, I had seen this woman walk by a couple of times, holding a puppy. And then she looped around a third time and she looked at me and said, will you hold this puppy while I set up a little playpen for him? And I was like, are you also gonna offer me a million dollars and a cake? Like, what? Of course, give me the puppy.

• 28:13Holly Frey?

  It was the cutest little thing and it turned out she was meeting the puppy's new

• 28:22Holly Frey?

  and they had not gotten in yet and the puppy needed to stretch his legs. She's like, I can't carry him around and I don't want to leave him in the carrier. He's very young and I'm worried he needs a potty pad. And so I want to set up his thing, but I can't hold him and do it. Can you hold him?

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 28:34Holly Frey?

  I was just like, the bliss, the sweetest puppy. The puppy licked my face and I almost, there was a flash in my brain of, if you just run out the door right now, this is your puppy.

• 28:45Holly Frey?

  I don't need a puppy. I'm not equipped for a puppy. But it was so sweet. It was a great moment. Sometimes the universe gives you puppy kisses.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:52Holly Frey?

  Just cuz.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, we, um, some friends and I went on a hike over the weekend. And we were gonna hike and then we were gonna get in the car and drive approximately two and a half hours to get back to where we all live. And as we were in the, in the car setting off, we all kind of realized we were more tired than we thought we were gonna be.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  And so my friend who was driving was like, okay, if I see a place to buy coffee, we're stopping.

• 29:22Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Said, great. And so we stopped at this like little locally owned coffee roastery. We went in, we each got something to drink. We came out and there was somebody with the cutest little corgi

• 29:38Speaker 02

  outside of the coffee shop. And so we all got to have surprise corgi time.

• 29:44Holly Frey?

  It's the best. Surprise, surprise puppy time. It's pretty magical. Now you're making me want to go and buy a coffee at a cute new place.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Maybe there will be a surprise puppy dog.

• 29:55Holly Frey?

  There probably not, but you never know. But there's a place near us that has a really yummy banana latte that I'm obsessed with. And now I have to go get another one.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 30:04Holly Frey?

  Delicious. They also have a lavender latte with. Is it jalapeno sugar on it? Oh, it sounds wild, but it's so perfect and delicious. I love it. Anyway, I'm glad we got to take a look at this topic this week. I'll loop it back to history because we always talk in broad strokes, not we, people in general. You know, there's a presumption that we know how the Civil War like ratcheted up to the point that it became a declaration of war. But there are a lot of moments like this that are important steps on the way to it. And I think it's important to look at them because we're all experiencing a lot of moments that are important and could potentially be steps to bigger things that are scary. And I just think it's important to look at history. Thank you.

• 30:53Holly Frey?

  If this is your weekend coming up, I hope it kicks butt. I hope you have a great time. I hope you have a lot of fun and that surprise puppies land in your world. Who don't want that? Maybe a delicious coffee, if that's your thing. Even if it's not your weekend, maybe you could have surprise puppy time. I hope that everybody is kind to one another. And if you don't have time off this weekend, I really hope that you at least sneak a little bit of time away for yourself in whatever way recharges you best, whether that is alone or with people you love. We will be right back here tomorrow with a classic episode. And then on Monday, we will have something brand new.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 31:48Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. Whenever you get your podcasts.

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• 33:54Speaker 00

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