#853: Jordan Jonas, Champion of Alone — The Art of Survival, Lessons from Nomadic Tribes, Hardship as the Path to Peace, How to Handle Rogue Wolverines, and Why Not to Photograph Attacking Bears

Jordan Jonas (@hobojordo https://www.instagram.com/hobojordo/) grew up on a farm in Idaho, rode freight trains across the US, spent time in remote Russian villages, fur trapped and travelled for several years with nomads in Siberia, and won Alone Season 6, after being the first contestant to truly thrive in the wilderness and harvest big game. You can learn more about Jordan's axes at JordanJonas.com/Axe http://jordanjonas.com/axe. This episode is brought to you by: Momentous https://livemomentous.com/Tim high-quality creatine for cognitive and muscular support: LiveMomentous.com/Tim https://livemomentous.com/TimMonarch https://www.monarchmoney.com/timtrack, budget, plan, and do more with your money: Monarch.com/Tim https://www.monarchmoney.com/timEight Sleep Pod Cover 5 https://www.eightsleep.com/tim/ sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating: EightSleep.com/Tim https://www.eightsleep.com/tim/Cresset https://cressetcapital.com/tim family office services for CEOs, founders, and entrepreneurs: CressetCapital.com/Tim https://cressetcapital.com/tim* TIMESTAMPS: [00:00:00] Who is Jordan Jonas?[00:02:20] The Siberian axe gospel: Single bevel, wide eye, and why your Lowe's hatchet is basically a butter knife.[00:07:16] A Montana downpour baptism.[00:08:04] Feather sticks and ferro rods.[00:12:36] A gnarly axe-ident, a quest for an abandoned boot, and frontier convalescense in a tipi.[00:19:59] First Russian word learned, courtesy of a Moscow airport officer with zero chill.[00:21:18] Jordan's youthful faith crisis and a Trans-Siberian prayer.[00:29:16] From building an orphanage to living with the Evenki.[00:31:29] Experiencing tug-of-war hospitality between ex-con Siberian families.[00:39:34] Reindeer vs caribou.[00:45:42] The Gulag Archipelago at 17.[00:49:36] The homeschooling advantage: Finishing academics by noon, then deep-diving history for fun.[00:53:50] Campfire psychology for gentlemen.[00:56:00] Why llamas are more practical than reindeer on Jordan's expeditions in the northern United States.[01:01:37] How Jordan's grandparents found purpose and built a joyful family after surviving Assyrian genocide.[01:11:18] Dad's 12-year health collapse and facing death with radical joy.[01:18:49] Freight train philosophy and evolutionary dopamine alignment.[01:30:03] Grandma moose rodeo.[01:33:07] Alone Season 6: The "Super Bowl of survival" just south of the Arctic Circle.[01:40:38] How Jordan survived 77 days in the woods barely breaking a sweat.[01:48:21] Harvesting a moose at day 20 via Russian fence-funneling tactics.[01:56:21] Wolverine vs. man with axe, a tin can alarm, and a wife who likes rustic jewelry.[02:03:05] The crappy fate of less-than-lucky rabbit feet.[02:04:59] Fat as a survival bottleneck, and how to experience the wild with Jordan.[02:09:31] Jordan hopes his upcoming book will help readers build reservoirs of resilience before they're needed.[02:12:27] The most overlooked part of the Serenity Prayer: "Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace."[02:14:48] The wilderness as political neutral ground and other parting thoughts. For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts https://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books https://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferriss http://linkedin.com/in/timferriss See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers, people who are incredibly good, possibly the best in the world at what they do. My guest today is Jordan Jonas. I spent a week in the woods with Jordan, with a few of my closest friends, doing survival training. And all of my friends said, "You have to have Jordan on the podcast." So here we are. Who is Jordan? Jordan grew up on a farm in Idaho, rode freight trains across the US, hence his Instagram, @hobojordo, spent time in remote Russian villages, fur-trapped and traveled for years with nomads in Siberia, and won Alone: Season Six, one of the few reality TV shows that

• 0:45Tim Ferriss?

  I actually watch, because you learn so much. And he won that after being the first contestant to truly thrive in the wilderness, in this case, in the Arctic, for 77 days, and harvest big game. It's a crazy story. We get into it. He now leads people from all over the world, including yours truly, and all walks of life on extraordinary outdoor adventures, facilitating once-in-a-lifetime wilderness expeditions, hunts, family adventures, and team-building events. He has a wife and three children, and focuses on living life to its fullest with them. And that's the truth. I have spent time with them. And Jordan is a model for living the good life, not overcomplicating, focusing on the things that truly matter, the critical few over the trivial many.

• 1:28Tim Ferriss?

  And I've learned a lot from Jordan, and I think you can too. We get... Perfect timing for the dogs to have a spaz attack. With that, please enjoy this conversation with Jordan Jonas, and be sure to check him out at jordanjonas, J-R-D-A-N-J-O-N-A-S dot com, and on Instagram and YouTube, @hobo, that's H-O-B-O, jordo, J-O-R-D-O. Thanks for listening.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half-mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question?

• 2:03Speaker 02

  No, we're just sitting at the peak time.

• 2:05Speaker 03

  What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 2:19Tim Ferriss?

  Jordan, great to see you, man.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Good to see you, Tim. Good to see you.

• 2:22Tim Ferriss?

  And we've upgraded our interaction to in-person.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25Tim Ferriss?

  Because for those who are listening, we had some audio glitches, some technological woes, and we just decided to do it in person.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so fun.

• 2:34Tim Ferriss?

  And I have twice the number of pooches, meaning two versus one, since you last saw me. Got a stray adopted a few days ago. We're also drinking what people might think are ridiculously heavy pours of whiskey, but this is not whiskey. This is Lake Missoula Tea Company, Lake Missoula Breakfast. It is delicious, just a bit of caffeine, a little bit of a topper, let's call it.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, we just both arrived at some city we're not from, so.

• 3:02Tim Ferriss?

  At high altitude. And we're just getting back into the groove of the conversation. So we are going to get to Russia, but first I wanted you to, and they just tie together, I suppose, explain what we have here on the table besides the tea. Because you made the joke, you know, if the interview's not going very well, you might as well have this. Yeah, the handle is pointed towards you. What are we looking at?

• 3:30Speaker 02

  What we're looking at is an axe. It's one I've kind of designed specifically using the knowledge and experience I have had in Siberia in particular with the native folks and such. So it's got some unique features, some that I've really grown to love. So in the forest, first off, just to set the foundation, the one tool you need is an axe to give yourself a chance at survival.

• 3:57Tim Ferriss?

  More than a knife.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  More than a knife, because you can do all the things you can do with a knife. You can get through, you know, you could get a fire, you could build some traps, you can get through the ice, you can, you know, it just kind of gives you the ability to do everything, maybe not as well as you want, but as the natives would say, the one tool you need is an axe, and I concur. So the problem, though, is that a lot of people in the States don't know what a good axe is. And so you'll go buy one at Lowe's and go home, it just doesn't do the job you need. So I designed one that has all the features I like. It's kind of a Siberian axe head shape with some of the Avengi modifications.

• 4:36Tim Ferriss?

  The Avengi being the native people.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  The Avengi are the natives, nomadic folks that I lived with. They live in the woods all the time, so they kind of know what they. They like so some of the features of this axe in particular, most interestingly is it's sharpened from one side.

• 4:51Tim Ferriss?

  It's like a single bevel.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  It's a single bevel grind, which means you have to have a right or a left handed axe, based on what you are. But what that allows you to do is when you're in the woods, very often you'll be carving things, you know, whether you're building a sleigh or building a trap or building whatever it might be. And it really helps it work as a planer and really helps it do accurate work that way. It also on most trees that you chop down in the woods, they're quite narrow. You're rarely chopping down a giant, you know, cedar tree. You're, you're going to be chopping down things about the size of your arm and couple swings with this bevel design and you can slice right through them.

• 5:30Tim Ferriss?

  Assuming it is matched to your dominant hand, right?

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 5:33Tim Ferriss?

  So that it's sticking instead of deflecting.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  Exactly. Exactly. So if you picture a bevel and hitting against a tree, if it's ground off on that side, there's a bit of a deflection. And by grinding it from the opposite side, when it hits that tree, it just bites right in.

• 5:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. I guess you have some experience with deflection.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Deflection. Oh, yes, we do. And yeah, just to finalize a few last points, you'll notice on a lot of American axes, they have a narrow eye.

• 6:01Tim Ferriss?

  And can you describe the eye? The eye is basically if you had the axe, what would you call it?

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Blade, I guess.

• 6:06Tim Ferriss?

  Blade, right. There's the hole through which the handle would fit.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. On a Siberian axe, it's quite wide, which allows you and the field to repair it with a solid piece of wood. And you can slide the handle through a totem, like a tomahawk. From the top, the handle goes all the way on. That way, when you swing, the pressure is always tightening the head. You don't need wedges and all that, which is a cool design. There's a bunch of other little nuances to the design. I don't want to bore you too long, but Tim knows he's been up in the woods with me and we got to use it a bunch. I got to show him how to use it.

• 6:40Tim Ferriss?

  It's incredible how versatile an axes. I mean, the number of ways that you used it. Also, as a side note, I never really thought about this, but for people who are wondering about this bevel. Description that I gave, you could think of, there are certain chef's knives, especially Western chef's knives that are double beveled. They're sharpened from both sides in. So if you buy a cheap knife sharpener, it generally looks like a V, right? You're sharpening it from both sides. But if you look at a lot of Japanese chef's knives, single bevel, given the way they use it in cutting fish kind of horizontally. And I recall seeing you and we first went out, our first day in the wilderness in Montana. And just a quick sidebar, one of

• 7:25Tim Ferriss?

  my friends, because it's forecast, it's fantastic. It was a bluebird day. And he's like, it was his first time going out on a real camping trip. And he's like, I think I might just leave the rain gear at the rental spot. And I was like, that is the last thing you would just put at the bottom, you know, stick it somewhere. And then it was torrential downpour. We got hammered. And even though it wasn't particularly cold, you end up feeling cold very, very quickly. And when we arrived at, I suppose, the first camp, which maybe was sort of a premature stop because of the cold and the rain.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was pretty chilly.

• 8:04Tim Ferriss?

  And it was incredible how quickly, number one, my friend Mike and I both were having trouble zipping our jackets, even though it was not even winter. And then watching you use the axe to, maybe you could describe this, but when you take a larger stick, people think of fire building, and they think of perhaps having like the fat wood, and then you have some type of cotton ball or tinder, right? But when you're out in the woods, you don't necessarily sure you could pack these things. But if you're improvising, what blew me away was how you use the axe to create. Feathers?

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:44Tim Ferriss?

  Can you explain what that is?

• 8:45Speaker 02

  You want a really sharp axe. Once you get control of it, you know, they're dangerous. We'll go to the deflection stories in there. But once you're a master of the axe, you can go in a downpour, torrential downpour, chop down a dead standing tree because it, you know, you might see dead trees on the ground, but it's amazing, particularly in the spring, when they've spent a whole winter absorbing moisture. It's amazing how wet they will be. And so dead standing, find something, chop it down and then split it, you know, chop it a smaller piece out of the middle and then split that open. And once you got it split open, you're to that dry wood and it never gets wet because it was standing. And so you then split that piece open a couple of times. You get a nice edge on it.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  And then with the axe, you can just run your axe down that wood with the right amount of control and practice and make some really fine curls that'll catch a spark. So you don't even need a lighter. You don't need anything like that.

• 9:40Tim Ferriss?

  And what was, what was also counterintuitive to me is you don't even have to take those off of the split piece of this internal wood.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Easier if you don't. It's easier if you leave a big bundle of this curl.

• 9:53Tim Ferriss?

  So imagine, imagine guys, if you would, you have, let's just for simplicity's sake, right? Say that you have a fully intact log of wood that's about the thickness of your arm. You then, and there are very particular ways to do this safely, right? Like leaning it against a larger fallen tree.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of nuance.

• 10:16Tim Ferriss?

  There's a lot of nuance, but you split that in half. So now you have, if you're looking kind of down the barrel of each of these split pieces, they're half circles, right? And then you break those into, you chop those into even quarters, let's say. Then you stand one up and you're using the axe, which takes a lot of fine motor control to kind of shave down these thin pieces of wood that then curl as you're pushing it down. And then you go a little bit higher, you do the same thing, you do it again, you do it again. You end up with all of these. It's almost looks like a fiddlehead fern or something where they're all rolled together.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  In fire making too. And survival in the woods, it's great to have a lighter. It's great to have matches. They all make it so much easier to start a fire, but they'll occasionally fail you and they'll fail you when you need them the most. And so I always carry also just a ferro rod, which is, you know, it just makes sparks, basically. You scrape it and it makes sparks. But with that, you need a fine, paper thin material to catch the sparks and light it up. And that's what you're making with the axe curls. And so we were in a big downpour, you know, and even that can be difficult because when it's really raining, you know, you gotta be really careful that you've made all these curls that they don't get soaked before you get the spark on them. So we made a quick tripod, draped a tarp over it and tucked under that to actually build our fire.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Made a few sparks and got that burning. You can then make some not so fine curls, make some really quick, rough ones and throw that on top. It catches and pretty soon you have a fire, which is amazing how life giving it is. In most situations, everybody's depressed and wet.

• 11:53Tim Ferriss?

  Particularly like soaking wet, hands aren't really functioning. And then the fire, once you get a critical mass and you're able to warm your hands. You know, my buddy, Mike, I remember he said, he's like, yeah, no wonder we worshipped fire for so long. Obvious. All right. So this axe and I'm thrilled to have one of these and we'll put up an additional shorter video on my YouTube channel, which is just Tim Ferriss. What is your YouTube channel?

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Hobo Giordo, actually.

• 12:23Tim Ferriss?

  And we will like explain why.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  I have a Instagram at that too, which I'll put videos up.

• 12:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So we'll put up some videos of the axe and maybe have you demo some of the more non-obvious ways of using it. Before we get to the rewind and looking at how on earth you ended up in Russia, let's not let go of the loose end of the deflection story. So what does it look like if you get over enthusiastic and you don't quite have the control yet?

• 12:51Speaker 02

  An axe has a learning curve, especially when you have a really well-made axe and you're swinging it hard to get the jobs you need done, done. When I did go to Russia, I was a little in over my head. Like I had grown up on a farm and used an axe more than probably your typical American, but not like they do over there by any means. And so.

• 13:11Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, these axes are, they're sharper than most kitchen knives you would find in an Airbnb. I mean, like they're very, very sharp.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Yep. And so. They just use them in a way more than I would and I was trying to keep up. You know, I'm trying to be productive and in doing so I was in a hurry. So this is going to take a slight bit of a backstory, but the natives over there will build these huge 30 kilometer circumference fences out of only logs interlocking. They have no nails, nothing up there because there are none around. And so there's a specific technique to doing that. Partly that involves chopping a tree down and then you step your foot on it and then you split that tree on that cut end, you know, so you're taking a big swing and swinging right where your foot sort of is. And that tree is not flat like it was cut with a saw. It's got an angle like it was cut with an axe.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  And so there's a real deflection possibility there if you don't have all the, you don't have it down. And so I'm trying to keep up. Smack, hit my boot and you know, we're in the middle of Siberia. I can't get another rubber boot. We're working in swamps. It was very disappointing. Went home, had a cut on my foot, you know, back to home, which is a teepee. We had a cut on my foot, kind of bandaged it up and tried to patch my boot as best I could. Go back out next day, same thing. And make a long story short, I chopped the heck out of my boots. And then finally one of the native guys was like, hey, you know what, Jordan? I think five years ago I left a boot upside down on a stump, like, you know, five miles that way. And so we spent a whole day, we got our reindeer, packed them up, rode these reindeer up and over the mountain.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Sure enough, there's a stump with a boot upside down. And these are natural rubber boots. And so I could like, it was smaller than my foot, but I could squeeze my foot in there and I was like, great, this is awesome. Back at it another day or two and swing, I chopped it and I was so frustrated. It was annoying that I cut my boot open. I got mad and I swung with one hand at the tree and then here comes deflect, you know, deflects off and rips right into my knee and I hammered my knee. In the long run, I went and got a checked out many months later, but it was, you know, I mostly severed the MCL, split the bone. It was a quite a gnarly injury and I.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  I was stuck out there. I had to crawl back to the teepee. I knew I was kind of in shock. So I was like, I gotta get back to the teepee before I feel this, which was a couple kilometers away. So I kind of just bailed out, told everybody like, I'm going back to teepee. And then I got there and man, it was a lot of pain. I had had surgery on my other knee not long before. So that was my good leg I chopped. And then, and I was stuck in that teepee for several days. I couldn't even move. I had to like, even to poop. I had a plastic bag. I had to like go in that and then roll to the edge of the teepee and stuff it out. I couldn't even stand on either leg. It was pretty miserable. And they were out building that fence. So it was a few days later, they finally came back and, and I was still recovering on the teepee floor.

• 16:08Tim Ferriss?

  What did you do or what did they do in terms of quote unquote first aid?

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:12Tim Ferriss?

  They're like, here's a, here's a poultice made of god knows what, slap it on, walk it off.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Yep. Which is mostly what it was. It was a very simple, we went over to a spruce tree that was bleeding a bunch of sap out, you know, and went over there and scraped a bunch of that sap off with the axe and then just put that on my wound. This is right at the start, right when I got it, packed the wound with that sap. Then I went back and shockingly enough, we're out in the woods and the dirt and the rusty axe or whatever, it never got infected at all. Healed up as best it could. Few days later, when they came back, Andre, one of the native guys brought me a little cane he carved for me, which was nice. And so the next couple of days I caned around and then, you know, got to where I could get back out on the fence again and help out. But it was quite a lesson.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  You know, that was my first time with them. And yeah, I was in over my head a little bit, high learning curve.

• 17:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's a memorable lesson.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Memorable lesson. That was very, I was pretty miserable in that teepee for a few days.

• 17:16Tim Ferriss?

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• 18:22Tim Ferriss?

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• 19:52Tim Ferriss?

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• 19:59Tim Ferriss?

  So it sounds like you got close to quite a few of the locals. Can you describe, hopefully this is enough of a cue. You told me about this moment. We're out in the woods in the mountains, but it involves, I picked up a few Russian words on this trip. I think one of them was druk, right? So if that's enough of a cue in terms of warm welcome, you know, what was your first arrival like?

• 20:26Speaker 02

  This is probably 2005 or six, but I was heading over to Russia the first time and didn't know what to expect, but we land in the Moscow airport and instead of having like a bus or something come up to our airplane, it was like a farm tractor, this blue farm tractor and a wooden trailer. And I was like, no way. Get off the plane and you know, we're climbing into this trailer. And so of course I took a picture and this officer standing over there, druk, which means like idiot. No, the first greeting of Russia came over to my phone, made me delete it. Welcome to Russia. And so that was fitting.

• 21:05Tim Ferriss?

  I guess it's, I guess it's not that different from how you would probably get treated at JFK.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Taking pictures. Fair enough. Fair enough. A little bit of cultural ignorance.

• 21:17Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So let's go back then to the impetus, the catalyst, just as a skeletal backstory that we're going to dive into. But where did you grow up?

• 21:28Speaker 02

  I grew up in Idaho and on a farm in North Idaho.

• 21:33Tim Ferriss?

  Part and did you grow up? Learning Russian from family members, then studying in school, then going to Russia?

• 21:40Speaker 02

  No, I never had any particular, never thought particularly a lot about Russia, although I was really into history. And so I'd read about, a lot about World War II, Russian war memoirs. You know, all this I had read and really was impacted by the Gulag Archipelago. So I had a familiarity with Russia, but it was never a destination that I had thought about. And, you know, lived a fairly typical beginning to life. Got a job when I was 13, worked, worked, worked. And then when I was about 18, my brother invited me to ride freight trains. So that kind of sent me on a path.

• 22:15Tim Ferriss?

  So we're gonna skip forward from there and come back to why?

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 22:20Tim Ferriss?

  Hobo Jordan.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 22:23Tim Ferriss?

  So what on earth happened that led to actually getting on a plane?

• 22:29Speaker 02

  You know, I grew up in a Christian household and I had seen the fruit of that path in my life. I'd seen in people around me, my family history, you know, I really valued it and it was really meaningful to me. But as I was, you know, a teenager and grown up, I had a lot of questions that I hadn't had satisfactorily answered. And so I found myself, although I really valued Christianity and saw it as very good, I found myself in a place where I was struggling to connect with it on any level. And so I was in a fairly dark place as a young man there. And I remember at that time, I had read this particular verse and it basically said, he who follows a

• 23:12Speaker 02

  path of righteousness and is in the darkness, continue. And that struck me at the time because like, okay, there's people that try to do the right thing and are still in darkness and that. So that's okay. But it didn't answer a lot of the questions I had. And I didn't want to bulldoze it all because I had seen that it was good. And I also knew I was young and ignorant.

• 23:32Tim Ferriss?

  What do you mean by bulldoze it?

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Well, I didn't want to take my faith in Christianity and everything that it meant and just say, this is, I'm gonna discard it and go my own way as a 18 year old.

• 23:43Tim Ferriss?

  What types of questions did you have?

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were actually fairly simple and this goes to the next answer, but I had a, my two main questions were, one, like surely though your earth is not 6,000 years old? And then two was, now I just had a hard time matching up Old Testament ethics with Christ's message and I just didn't know how to do those things. And so I had a lot of what I would call cultural baggage. There was a lot of baggage with my faith, but because I recognize it as good, was like, I'm gonna try to stick with it, but I have to separate the baby from the bathwater. And that's kind of a daunting task because it's kind of a lifelong journey of faith, but I was given a great boost by the fact that actually Jesus did.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  He said in one part of the New Testament, he says, to give a summary, but what's the point of the law and the prophets? Like, what is all this for? And he says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself." So I was shocked when I read it because I was like, wow, wait a second. He takes all the bathwater and throws it out for you and leaves you the baby. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself." That was the whole point of the law and the prophets and everything else. And so I didn't have to figure everything else out at the time and I was okay with seeing if that would play out. You know, like I said, I'd seen enough fruit that I didn't want to bulldoze it.

• 25:08Tim Ferriss?

  What kind of fruit had you seen for yourself?

• 25:09Speaker 02

  You know, so like my mom for one, like a real woman of faith and that we'd all always had single moms come over and live at the house and she would always work to like give gifts to, Christmas gifts to prisoners, children that are out, you know, you know, always had her acting in the world in love. And in my own life, as a young man, you know, you got this thing, this ideal that's pushing against your natural. Lust and this and that, you know, it kind of throws a wrench into your natural tendencies, whether that be to anger or to, you know, it overlays your life with a love ideal.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  And I saw that as good. And so I chose at that time with those two bits of information that like continue even in the darkness and that I can like put everything else on pause. The only thing I need to like accept or not accept is like love that that core. And I was like, I'm okay with accepting that. And then I had this really deep prayer that someday I just wish I had the faith to match. But I didn't actually know if I per se believed it. I just knew that I'm gonna do it anyway. So in that time, I was also traveling and going to New York and going to Virginia and running all around. And I had heard of this opportunity to go to Russia and build an orphanage. So that was the first thought of Russia.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  And again, it was the distant and I didn't think much of it, but I did pray, well, if you want me to go, Lord, you know, you're gonna have to give me a sign because I don't have any reason to go. And then I went to New York. I was kind of a flipping prayer, I think. I went to New York and met a Russian there and she had offered to give me Russian lessons because you know, the topic came up. And I did, and I don't know what it was, but I think it was maybe either putting a face to a vague idea or a act of God or whatever you want to call it. But for some reason, it hit me really emotionally. Like I would went back to the my apartment there and my sister's apartment and just would cry like, oh, man, like, I felt like a heavy burden for, it wasn't even directed at her, it was

• 27:18Speaker 02

  directed at this vague idea of going. And I couldn't tell, even at the time, I was like, I couldn't quite explain it, but it could be explicable. But also, I could just accept it as the kick that I prayed for. And so I kind of did. And again, I still didn't have the faith to match. Then I remember going, I was like, okay, I'm gonna go, I'm taking it as an answer. I bought a ticket for a year and headed over to, I didn't even really know where. And there was a guy over there, Justice Walker, awesome dude. He was getting heading up that orphanage building project. And so that was my only connection. And then I remember on the train, I was like, it was hard for me to go because I had like girl I had a crush on and all these, I wanted to pursue my education and maybe become an officer in the Marines. You know, all these things I had ideas for.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  And then I was on this train and had given all that up, like on the Trans Siberian rail, like chugging across. And I remember just like, Lord, if I could have one thing, someday give me faith to match my like willingness to sacrifice. So that was my kick into Russia. Kind of open ended and I just had one thing I was grasping, like love your neighbor as yourself. Let me see if I can implement this in the world in whatever place I am. I wasn't trying to per se do anything other than that.

• 28:31Tim Ferriss?

  Tell me if this is a fair read. I've often said to myself and to other people, and I absolutely borrowed it from someone else. I did not come up with this, but the general maxim that it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Hmm hmm.

• 28:51Tim Ferriss?

  So act as if.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  Act as if, that's very much so.

• 28:56Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  And I think particularly when you're dealing with something like apathy or love, or you know, like, how do you relate in the world? Like one thing that was clear is like, oh, well, actually it's an action, you know, like, and so we're going to do this. You know, you can't be stagnant in that orientation. But I think that's a good summary.

• 29:15Tim Ferriss?

  How did you go from orphanage to Ivanki?

• 29:21Speaker 02

  I went over to help Justice Walker build this orphanage. And that was neat, but I, it was just me and he needed a lot of groundwork laid and wells dug. But he eventually had a crew lined up that was going to come over and actually frame the thing and put the thing up and do all that. So I was there kind of doing the groundwork. We dug a well and did all this stuff, but it was still pretty preliminary. And I was there for a few months, really enjoyed being in Russia, but I was struck by the fact that I actually really want to live with Russians, you know, and so I told that to Justice and he was like, well, let's call a neighboring village. He called him up.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  And the guy was like, whoa, yeah, absolutely. Send the American over. My wife's in the hospital and I need someone to watch my kids. So.

• 30:11Tim Ferriss?

  How long had you been there?

• 30:13Speaker 02

  About three months, I would guess.

• 30:14Tim Ferriss?

  How much Russian did you speak at that point?

• 30:16Speaker 02

  Very little, very little. Like I was trying to pick it up, but that was part of the problem is Justice was so much, he was one of the most well read people I've ever been with. So it's so fun to just talk to him and.

• 30:27Tim Ferriss?

  It's a lot easier than working on your ABCs.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Exactly. And so I was not doing it to the, and when you first go to a country, you're so struck by how much you can communicate through non-verbally and then you all of a sudden hit a wall. Okay. I wanted to get past that as fast as possible. So I went to that little village and was fully immersed in a Siberian, you know, village life right there. Yeah, it was pretty funny because I hadn't dealt with kids before or anything like that. Yura had to go back to his lumber mill job. And so he was big Russian dude, you know, that big handshake, oh, so glad you're here and showed me around. And here's the kids, five year old boy and a two year old girl, you know, introduce, have some tea.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  Then the next day he's already off to work. He pointed me where the grocery store is. And so I was in the deep end trying to take care of these two kids. I'd never done that before. Grocery shop for him. I didn't even know the language and that was my splash into Russia proper, I guess, in that regards.

• 31:29Tim Ferriss?

  And then how do you get into reindeer territory?

• 31:31Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. So these guys, these guys that all, Yura had been to prison before and.

• 31:39Tim Ferriss?

  Who was that?

• 31:40Speaker 02

  Sorry, the Russian guy.

• 31:41Tim Ferriss?

  The guy with the big hand.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  With, yeah, the big Russian.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  And he, uh, his neighbor was named was eager and he had also been to prison. And these are all guys in Siberia with pretty storied pasts, but they really enjoyed having me over there. For when I was like, really trying to just work hard. And it was so random for them to have an American that they, uh, would kind of tug of war me back between their two houses.

• 32:08Tim Ferriss?

  Had American.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  It was, they both became like families to me, you know, they both had kids and both a lot of fun in different ways. But eager, the second family there had been in prison with a native fur trapper from the far north. And they're really close because they'd like found God in prison together and this and that. And so he was always telling me, you gotta go north and meet my fur trapping buddy. So after that year of living in Russia, I write at the end of it, Yura, the trapper came through town to sell furs. And we met and he invited me up to live with him. And so I was like, yeah, I'm going to go home to America, renew my visa, get some, earn some money and then I'll come back. And so I went back and headed straight north, more or less.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  And then I was in even more over my head.

• 32:59Tim Ferriss?

  So what was, what was the first day like when you land, first day, first week, when you land in the far north?

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Oh, it was very funny.

• 33:07Tim Ferriss?

  This is in Siberia proper.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Well, we've been in Siberia the whole time, but it was this incrementally further north and kind of central Siberia.

• 33:16Tim Ferriss?

  How cold does it get in the far?

• 33:18Speaker 02

  Well, in the far north, you know, where I would end up being with the nomads, it'd get to negative 58, negative 60s. It's like kind of the, the cutoff, but chilly. First getting to the north, it's funny. Well, one thing I was struck by, honestly, when I got to Russia is there's a lot of drinking. And every bit, I went further north, every time I would get used to it at one place. And I remember driving in a village in the first village I was with Justice. And we're just cruising along on a cold winter day in the bus. And it swerves around this guy laying in the road, but we're out in the middle of nowhere. I was like, whoa, like it's cold out. We're going to stop in the lady across from me. And I could, you know, make out with my bad Russian. She's like, ah, he's a drunk. He's dead.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  I was like, Whoa. And so it was kind of intense, but you kind of recalibrate at the new norm. And when I went to the next northern village, it restruck me again. I was like, oh, there's chaos. And that first week was that because I was with Euro and he was showing me around. And, you know, we go to this first house and, I mean, I think even it might've been even on the way from the airport, but pick up some random drunk guy and he like holds up his phone and listen to this. And just his wife just chewing him out and cussing him out. He's like, that's the fury of the Russian woman, you know, because she's been missing for who knows how long.

• 34:43Tim Ferriss?

  Let's see, how can I summarize some of what we were talking about at dinner last night?

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:49Tim Ferriss?

  Correct me if I get anything wrong, like in the event, you have these sustenance hunters, trappers, et cetera, with encyclopedic knowledge and wherewithal. I mean, it's, it's just mind boggling, right? I haven't had an opportunity to spend time in that region of the world, but certainly in Central and South America and Africa and so on. When you start to look at, let's just say like Shangann trackers in South Africa, or there are like levels and then the Kalahari Bushmen, and then there are levels. And it's unbelievable how fluent they are in their environment.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:28Tim Ferriss?

  Right? And at the same time, many of these groups have an Achilles heel.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  That's what it feels like.

• 35:36Tim Ferriss?

  Which is alcohol. And to put it in perspective, what is the percentage of deaths attributable to homicide, suicide or alcohol related accidents?

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, the statistic I heard for the northern native villages was 30% of people die from homicide, suicide, right? It's really, and having lived there a long time, like actually I appreciate you stepping back a little bit because I don't want to like air dirty laundry and not put the proper context. Like, I love those people and they're my friends and many of my friends have that issue, but it has really tangible consequences when it's at that level. But yes, it was amazing because these people, you know, you go in the village and they'd be just on the ground drunk for like weeks on end, just binges that could only be broken by taking them back out in the woods. But when they get in the woods and sober up, these are like the coolest, most knowledgeable people.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  And then people that you would say are. Happy and living a fulfilled life and also just really open and pleasant and quick to become family, basically. But it was almost explicable just in the cultural tumult that they've had to endure over time. Because, you know, it was just in the 30s and stuff that basically the Soviet Union and Stalin, like, kind of really grabbed a hold of what was, had been long before, just the traditional way of life that continued forward alongside Russian fur trappers and this and that. And they grabbed hold of it with like an iron fist, forced, collectivized it.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  All the people that were spiritual leaders of any kind, shamans and everybody else got sent to prison camps, anyone that was really productive. So like, anyone that had more than 500 reindeer were sent to prison camps as kulaks or whatever, you know, and then they kind of just gutted the intellectual and spiritual soul from them and then forced built these villages, they forced them to be in. And then instead of them having reindeer and being people existing freely out in the wilderness, they turned them into collective farms. So now you're hired as a reindeer herder to herd the government's reindeer. And your wife might be hired as a teepee worker to live in the teepee.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  And so they just restructured the life. The kids now don't live with you in the woods. They go to boarding school, separated the families. And then somehow they actually made that kind of work, you know, and to some degree, the reindeer, while less independent than they were prior, they flourished in that they had big herds of reindeer and people were productive and alcohol was banned. So they kind of were quite productive. And then the Soviet Union collapsed and overnight all the reindeer just became for the highest bidder. So the, you know, Russians and people from out of town that had a lot of money just came in and bought all these reindeer that were grandpas and grandmas, you know, blood and sweat and just butchered them and sent them to the meat shops.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  And the reindeer herders scraped together what little bit of money they could and bought a few reindeer and went back into the woods. The family I lived with was Von Viktorovich, was the, was the old man when I first got there and he was blind, but he was the guy that had like got some of these reindeer, took his sons out of the boarding school and raised them in the woods. And so. It gave me a real appreciation also for the traditional ways of life because I could see it in villages where reindeer herding hadn't been hung on to and they just felt like black holes, like everybody was just drinking and there was nothing to do and they don't have an outlet to like flourish with something they're proud of in in their native ways.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  So it felt pretty dead end, but the village with the reindeer herding had this whole thing and they, and you know, the reindeer herders out there and because of that, even the people that don't do it are proud to be reindeer herders and they have a place to send their kids in the summer and people have this, there's a little bit of cultural momentum that's really enriching.

• 39:35Tim Ferriss?

  So let's, let's unpack this word and this animal and the significance of reindeer because it's come up a ton and people are like, what is up with these magical reindeer? So first of all, just to paint a picture for folks, this might not help, but how similar are reindeer to caribou?

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Very similar, almost, you probably wouldn't recognize the difference, but they do have a slight genetic just from separation. So reindeer are technically in the old world and caribou are the similar animal, but in the new world, so Canada and stuff. And they can breed with each other and stuff, but the results turn out poorly. Like they get the worst traits of both. And then in the old world, more so than, well, an old world, it's the reindeer were domesticated very long ago, like 10,000 years ago or whenever. So there's actually kind of become a bit of a domestic strain of reindeer. Like the natives

• 40:32Speaker 02

  now can't domesticate the wild ones. And if a wild one comes in and breeds with theirs, then it's always going to be wild. So, so it's been a way of life long enough that there's some even genetic separation between the wild and the semi domesticated.

• 40:51Tim Ferriss?

  And what is the role of the reindeer? Why are they so important? Is it analogous to say bison for some of the plains Indians in North America? Is it different?

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Well,

• 41:04Tim Ferriss?

  I guess it is actually, it's different because of the domestication.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. I was gonna say it's analogous in that, you know, their whole cultural stories and everything are all connected with the reindeer like with the bison, but it does differ because the reindeer actually practically make living in the woods.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  In the taiga and those remote northern forests, a thing like it makes it possible to exist out there year round and have transportation. So they ride the reindeer like you would horses. And then they also in the wintertime ride them, you know, sleighs. They provide meat when the hunts don't go well. They provide the furs that, you know, so they kind of provide everything. They also provide just the cultural context. Like you could go out there, sure, and set up a teepee and live and bring in noodles and, you know, be just fine. But, but it would feel fairly dead without just the rhythms of life that are created by the reindeer. So they're really core to, to that.

• 42:06Tim Ferriss?

  Sort of the rhythms.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  To the rhythms and, but also they're very practically, I always hated snowmobiles because they're going to break down and then you're going to be stuck, you know, 40 kilometers from camp. And like you said, your hands aren't working. You got to try to work on this little thing. When you had a reindeer in a sleigh, no problem. And so you can, and there's a point that is interesting to make that I learned living in the woods for a while is like, you're home. You're just already home, wherever you are. And so like, when you have your reindeer and stuff, you're not lost. You're home. You're just where you are is kind of home and you're able to take that and really embody it and become like a part of the wilderness in that way.

• 42:51Tim Ferriss?

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• 44:02Tim Ferriss?

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• 45:29Tim Ferriss?

  There are no material conflicts other than this paid testimonial. And of course, all investing involves risk, including loss of principal. So, do your due diligence.

• 45:41Tim Ferriss?

  So we're going to get back to hopping trains in a second, but you kind of passed over Gulag Archipelago. And you're like, had an influence, had an impact on him. Seems like that might be an understatement. I don't know. For people who are wondering, this is not a light breezy hundred page read. And we're going to come to that in just a second, but what did your childhood education look like?

• 46:09Speaker 02

  I was homeschooled, so my mom took it real seriously and she was pretty hands on and teaching us. So, and I, for whatever reason, really got into history as a young kid. So even probably was 12, I read this big, I remember it was my first real thick book, but it was about Iwo Jima and like World War II and other battles. And then I got really into those memoirs, read a bunch of German memoirs from World War II, which were always crazy because they had to go through so much. And then the Russian ones, because I was, anyway, got into all the memoirs and then somehow came across the Gulag Archipelago. And I was fairly young, you know, I was probably 17, 18 when I first read it.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  And it impacted me in a, in a lot of ways that were relevant to my, the little spiritual path that I was on before. Because a lot of what he talks about is that happiness can't be our ultimate goal in life. We have to have purpose.

• 47:06Tim Ferriss?

  Could you, just for people who, and certainly I'm not intimately familiar with it, what is, what is written about?

• 47:12Speaker 02

  Alexander Shulzunyson was a guy who was on the front in World War II and wrote a letter back criticizing Stalin or something. And of course he got checked and he got arrested and sent to Gulag, which were the Soviet prison camps that kind of snaked their way all through the Soviet Union. They were particularly harsh on political prisoners as opposed to crime prisoners. But like, so they would send these guys out to basically death camps and have them mine or do the labor, basically. They kept the thing going, but they were. Designed to be really brutal and dark places. The fact that even, you know, because the political prisoners were the bottom of the rung,

• 47:55Speaker 02

  they allowed the like rapists and those guys to kind of rule the roost and set the rules. And so they degraded into some pretty terrible situations. But this was all unknown, basically to the West, and he was a some kind of a brilliant mind. And he, over his eight or however many years he was in the prison camp, had an insipidic ability to like, remember, maybe he wrote down, I don't know, but all these stories of people who had been through all these situations. And when you read it, I was just struck by like, man, there's all those little paragraph about this lady, that lady should have her own book. Like, that's a crazy amount of tragedy and story and all the stuff packed in those books. Another example of something that really stood out was like, you know, when you get in prison,

• 48:40Speaker 02

  everybody says to themselves, I'm going to survive, you know? Then you add at any cost to the end almost nonchalantly. And then pretty soon you start down this path where you're basically stomping on others to survive because you need to look out for number one, survival of the fittest. And he was like, and everybody basically adopted that mentality. He's like, except for these occasional, like corrupt Orthodox Church had somehow created these babushkas, these old ladies that didn't allow their soul to go down that path. And he's like, they all died, but they all were a light in the darkness on their way. And then kind of gets at the point of, yeah, the lose your life, but don't lose your soul. And like happiness can't be your ultimate goal.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  That can be taken from you by a health change or by getting thrown in a gulag or by whatever it is, you have to have something deeper and so forging a purpose, you know?

• 49:36Tim Ferriss?

  I wanted to talk about the Homeschooling because not that there is a single mold, but there are certain, I suppose, maybe archetypes that people might have in their heads as to what constitutes like a rugged mountain man effectively. And I was chatting with my girlfriend last night and she was like, he doesn't really fit my vision of like a rugged mountain man, which is not, she's not saying you're not rugged, but when you're talking about, and I'm sure we'll get to this, like Assyrian history and reading Gulag Archipelago as a 17 year old, like, these are not terribly common things that get woven together. How did your mom do the homeschooling? Like, what did a week

• 50:21Tim Ferriss?

  look like or the lesson plans? Does that make any sense? I'm just wondering because homeschooling, I think for a lot of people in the United States seems like an aberration. But when you look at some of the people whose books we read, a lot of them had some equivalent of homeschooling.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know what I think it kind of is, is it's a public school, there is a standard and everybody's going to be taught to that standard. And there's kind of a minimum bar in this and that. Homeschooling allows for more divergent options, both on the negative and the positives and keep your kid at home and not teach him anything and go on. But also you can really focus on your kid's unique interests and abilities and they can really excel and develop those in a way you wouldn't in kind of the public school realm. So because I was yeah, really into history, you know, we leaned into that and I had the time to, because honestly, in a public school setting, you burn up so much time going into reason, you know, just dinking around, whereas I could get done with my actual academic schooling in just a couple hours in

• 51:21Speaker 02

  the morning, a few hours maybe, then go on to my interests. And so it allows you to do that. But then she kind of taught us, you know, initially she was really hands on. And then the older we got, it was more hands off where we had to be more self taught and follow this whatever curriculum she had. And then the last two years of school, so my last junior and senior year, I went to a public high school and got that experience.

• 51:46Tim Ferriss?

  Got socialized.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Got socialized, which was an odd experience.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  I'm not sure what I think of the socialization.

• 51:57Tim Ferriss?

  Prefer. I was gonna say prefer to be an indoor cat. You're not really an indoor cat.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  No, but it so with homeschooling, though, I think it had a really awesome thing. You know, I think it's great that it's an option in the country. It is one thing if you're homeschooled, you have to focus on its weakness, which is community and friends and developing that. So for people that think that's an interesting option, just know that that's its weakness and then account for that in how you organize. So that's what we do with our kids.

• 52:26Tim Ferriss?

  How do you account for it with your kids?

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Uh, we're really active in trying to be the catalyst for community in our town. Like, we're always ready to hang out and we're all, you know, we got them in jujitsu and we got in gymnastics and got them in all the things and then make phone calls, foster like hiking trips with the other families and make sure we're like multiple times a week getting the kids together with their friends and stuff. You know, you just really put effort and focus on that.

• 52:54Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm. It also strikes me that the ability to build community and social bonds and therefore socialize, but not in some oddly artificial environment, is kind of dependent on activities. And maybe this is particularly true for boys, I don't know. But what I observed when I was at your house, I just remember your kids' cousins visiting and they were always outside doing something, which I think is important, right? They're not just sitting around talking. That's not actually natural for most humans, including adults, to just do that all the time. There were shared activities and then when the cousins left,

• 53:38Tim Ferriss?

  I guess it was your middle child who was just crying and is so, is so adorable. But just such heartfelt, deep connections. And similarly, it's like when we were out in the woods and we were sitting around, your brother was there, maybe he had a thing or two to do with the jujitsu influence. I don't know. Another reason to never start fights. Like you would not see him and be like, I'm terrified of that guy. And yet he could absolutely bend you into a pretzel and, and cause lots of of his lifelong problems.

• 54:12Tim Ferriss?

  We're out there, it was you and your brother, couple of llamas, one with a slightly lopsided head prone to falling over. It's a long story. And just a few guys, two of my close friends, and we're all around a fire. And I can't remember who said it. Maybe it was your brother, maybe it was Mike. But oh, I get it. I see why. This is again, not, it's not saying this is a purely gendered thing, but this is what he said, because it was all guys. It was not, okay, who said, now I see why guys like fires so much, because they can connect and talk without making eye contact. You can just look at the fire, having something that is like ancillary.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  No, I thought it was a fun observation. I've paid a little more attention to it ever since, but it does just give you something, a third party to, hey, we should have a little, start a little fire on the table here. For sure, having a common activity like that. And we are fortunate enough to just be able to live in a place that's really conducive to sending the kids outside. And it's something I've obviously tried to foster in them. So they do spend a lot of time just running around and being creative. And, you know, they don't have, one thing I've avoided a bit is phones and stuff like that. And I think it is fairly low hanging fruit. Because, I mean, you can see how they affect us in our everyday life.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  We get distracted and we get kind of disoriented with them, I would say. And with kids, it's even so much more acute. So they have to go out and run around and play and have fun.

• 55:45Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you've also engineered this, I mean, it's a very fancy term to use, but you've designed that into your life as a deliberate environment and place. You could have been in a lot of other places. And as, for instance, I'm training this very large puppy right now, although I think I'm being trained a lot more, probably. In any case, very different personality for my other dog, probably mixed with Anatolian shepherd, very stubborn. And when you're trying to train a dog like that, I remember a dog trainer said to me, if you're using treats as an example, right, you have to tip with 20s because the bar is crowded,

• 56:28Tim Ferriss?

  right? There are a lot of distractions. And When I think about kids, and of course, I do not have kids yet. I hope to in the very near future. But if you're sitting in an apartment in the city and you're like, kids, you can't use your phone. What are you offering them as an alternative? Right? It's like, what is the alternative that is more compelling? And you've deliberately put yourself in an environment where there's, you have quite a lot to choose from.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  Right, right. And that has been intentional. And obviously, that is probably more difficult. If you have a small apartment and you live in a city, you know, I imagine it takes a lot more hands on going to the park, or, you know, there's a lot of creative outlets in learning to paint, learning an instrument, learning of this or that, that may scratch that itch. For me, I did have it as a high priority to let the outdoors be a big part of our life. So I moved where that was possible. And I have, you know, structured our life such I got the llamas, you know, we're joking about initially so that I could take the family out on one, two week long trips rather than because I just couldn't carry enough gear, they take them out for shorter. So it's been really intentional. It's been great.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  And it's something to work out in a more urban context, but it's not what I where I'm at.

• 57:50Tim Ferriss?

  Llamas, people might be like, llamas? Really? Are we in the Andes? What's going on? Why llamas instead of horses?

• 57:55Speaker 02

  You know, the reindeer history now, when I first got back from Russia, I thought it would be amazing to pack with reindeer in America. So I lived in Idaho, and there was a law against owning reindeer north of a certain border. I contacted my legislature or whatever there and oddly responsive, pretty soon I was in meetings at the government, with the government officials, and they overturned the law. So now you can own reindeer in North Idaho. Unfortunately, part of that was they had to be in a high fence. So it kinda. Ruined the ability of what I was envisioning to like.

• 58:31Tim Ferriss?

  So you couldn't, you couldn't back them out.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I couldn't like load them full of gear and pack up in the woods. So you know, then your only other options are horses and llamas. And I honestly just hadn't grown up with horses. And there is quite a learning curve on them. They're dangerous. You know, everybody that does a lot with horses has some kind of stories of getting hurt on them.

• 58:51Tim Ferriss?

  For people who have no idea, how big are llamas?

• 58:54Speaker 02

  They're about three hundred and fifty pounds.

• 58:56Tim Ferriss?

  A lot smaller.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  They're a lot smaller.

• 58:58Tim Ferriss?

  They're a lot smaller and they, I'm sure there are cases where they might, but they tend not to kick.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  They're very like safe. And you can have like mean angry llamas, of course, like you can have a bad bitey dog, but you know, if you have a good llama, it's they're oddly chill animals. You go up on the woods and they don't like tear up the ground. They sit there quietly. The kids can ride them. So in that way, they're quite nice for kids. Obviously adults can't, but they can pack the gear and I can walk without gear as long as I want to. So you know, those are great advantages of horses and I love them, but for me, the low maintenance and low risk of a llama, just I was like, well, if I can't have reindeer, I guess that's the next closest thing.

• 59:39Tim Ferriss?

  Are there any terrain? Or sure footedness advantages to llamas? I'm thinking about, for instance, like horses versus donkeys, right? Like it seems like there are some advantages of using donkeys over horses.

• 59:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, the uh main advantage.

• 59:55Tim Ferriss?

  Everybody should follow uh Hobo Jordan on Instagram because you have photos of the aftermath of some horses going cartwheeling down an incline.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Tim Ferriss?

  Don't want to be caught up in that.

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's easy to get killed. I think, yeah, this is a common historical theme. Someone's all got bucked off the horse and the fourth crusade ended or whatever.

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  Where are we going?

• 1:00:19Tim Ferriss?

  Advantages of llamas on terrain.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  Oh, on terrain. Yeah. So they have, you know, like the horse, you have a metal shoe on the bottom and metal, particularly on rock is pretty slippery. And so you'll do a lot of slipping and sliding on rocks. The llamas have a soft pad with two little claws. They look like little raptor claws in the front. And so it's actually quite interesting to see how they work.

• 1:00:42Tim Ferriss?

  They're very small.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're small little paws, but they you can stick on like a wet rock and that soft paddle grip and they can walk up and down the rocks. Or if you're in mud or soft dirt, you see those two little front claws digging like a raptor claw and they can climb up that. Yeah, the terrain issues are pretty great. The other pack animal people use is goats. And those are nice because you can really go over boulders and like ran, you know, they can hop from this to that. They're not, they're somewhere in between a horse and a goat as far as their off-roading abilities, but.

• 1:01:13Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds like you would have to have a whole caravan of goats for carrying capacity.

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  And goats also are always with you, like with the llama, I can tie them up and go hike up this way and that way. The goats are always with you. You can't tie them up and you can't leave them anywhere. Chaos will ensue, but they're, they're, they're funny little critters, but they weren't my cup of tea.

• 1:01:37Tim Ferriss?

  But let's hop to purpose, which I feel like looking back at your family history, looking back, and is it fair just to tie up one loose end with Gulag Archipelago? Is it, how analogous is it to Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl?

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really similar. I think it's like the thicker version of that, you know, it's like Gulag Archipelago light would be that Man's Search for Meaning.

• 1:02:03Tim Ferriss?

  Got it, okay. Could you give us a bit of your family history? And you can go back to your grandmother, you could kind of start wherever you want. The purpose specifically made me think of your dad and the reinvention of purpose, which I think is a pressing need for a lot of people in a fast-moving, modern environment where they feel like they're on very unstable ground, perhaps in a lot of ways. But let's go back, you know, I threw out this term Assyrian, but most people don't, it's not a familiar word.

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a kind of, I guess you would almost call it the indigenous people of the Middle East, you know, before kind of the Arab takeovers and stuff were Aramaic speaking Assyrians is what they're called. So that's what my family was. They lived in northwestern Iran, kind of near a. Lake called Lake Ermia. And during the chaos of World War One, you know, there had been the Ottoman Empire was crumbling and all these people who had been under the Ottoman like colonial yoke were seeking out their independence and their freedom and breaking off. And in all that chaos, basically, I think what happened was they it was an easy time to get rid of a entire people

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  group, you know, like actually Anatolia, you have an Anatolian shepherd was a pretty diverse place up until then. After that time, it was basically just Turks and Kurds left, you know, like the Greeks, the Assyrians, the Armenians kind of got all ran out of there in what? What were the reasons for running them out? It's complicated. It's not history's not black and white. They were minorities because those groups were Christian overall, living in, you know, under the Ottoman umbrella. And so sporadically, at times they would live okay. And then at times there would be big massacres. And over the course of centuries, there were just constant, it wasn't a pleasant way to live,

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  I guess would be the quick way to put it. And so there was sporadic massacres kind of all the time. And then so when World War One happened, you couldn't blame them for wanting independence, you know, and so a lot of those Christian minorities joined with the British or the Russians to try to forge out their new nation states that were forming from the crumbling Ottoman Empire. And at the same time, nationalism was really rising and there was a big Turkey for the Turks movement, like we don't want other people here. And that was ultimately the movement with the most power. And so when the Russian Empire collapsed from the Bolshevik Revolution, they kind of left a

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  vacuum in these areas that had they'd kind of provided a bit of a defense for. And because of that crazy nationalist fervor that was going on, the Turks decided that they could just kill or expel all the minorities who, you know, of course, some of them had been problematic in that there was like these freedom movements everywhere, collective punishment at a massive scale. And

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  Obviously, my, my grandparents were kind of out of it because they were in Iran. But when the Russian presence left there, the Turks went into there too. And it was basically at that point, it was just a kind of a uncontrolled. Well, ultimately would be a genocide. It killed like 750,000 Assyrians and a millions plus Armenians. And, you know, it was quite a disaster. So my grandma and grandpa, both of them would ultimately be, for all practical purposes, sole survivors. Like their families were completely wiped out. My grandpa was in a village when they were coming in and burning it down. And his dad was in a wheelchair, basically put a money belt on him and told him just, he was 17, told him just run and don't look back.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  He looked back to see his dad's house on fire, you know, with his dad in it. He never knew what happened to his sister. Ended up getting taken in by some Jesuit priests and kind of raised in there. And then, uh, my grandma had a different story where they, the Ottoman Empire was still kind of conscious of like trying to put on a image to the world. And so instead of, I mean, there was plenty of just straight up massacres, but instead of, they called them deportations, but they were kind of deportations to nowhere. So they just drove people out into the desert and marched them around until they died. And so my grandma, and she had seven siblings and a mom. Her dad was taken off to be shot.

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  And then they just drove them around in the desert until all but the mom, my great grandmother and one sister of my grandma were left. You know, the baby just had died and the mom fell down and was like, I just can't go on anymore. And my shalom, my grandma and Shushan like picked her up and like, we gotta keep going. At some point there, they split off from the guards or whatever stumbled through. And we're, we're actually ended up being rescued by a British. Military like outpost type thing. And then they were taken to a refugee camp. Mom and the sister never recovered really from just the trauma. And then grandma was sent to Baghdad and raised in a refugee camp.

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  So these two people kind of lost everything, even their like, I mean, the Assyrian people, nation kind of almost vanished. Like there's Aramaic is what they speak. It's like almost a gone language now, you know? It's very just small fragments of it hanging on. So they had kind of lost everything. And then they met in Baghdad somehow, you know, got married, immigrated to France right before World War Two. And then, you know, the Nazi invasion happened and there was a whole, they have a whole series of stories from, you know, kind of the deprivation at that time. They were already poor immigrants arriving there. And then to like, go through that whole Nazi as a patient.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  And then, then they eventually made it to America and actually died not long after. So my dad was 10 when his parents died and was raised by his sisters. But what, what I find something to be that I think about a lot is that they ended up having 11 kids, you know, so they had a really big family. And I would go to all these family unions with my aunts and uncles and my dad and this and that. And they were just the most joyful, fun, so much love and joy and family and all of this. It was a real bright spot in my childhood. And then was just that Jonas family stuff. And then you almost take it for granted until you step back and you're like, wait a second,

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  we're one generation from, like this is my grandma and her dad, you know, grandpa had their entire families wiped out and lost their whole culture and had to immigrate and give up everything and then had to do that again. And then, but somehow they've raised like a really. Joyful family, like a full of people and our like conversations were never about like, those people did that to us and like this is what happened, you know, it was never, hate was never the common language. It was always love and family. And now there's like some old grainy videos of grandma and grandpa and they're just laughing and eating, you know, they raised rabbits and eating rabbit around the table and laughing. And you think, well, that's so interesting.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  I don't know what cross they bore. And I know my dad said his dad used to always sit in his closet and pray. And he's like, you know, I'm sure he had like a lot to deal with, but they didn't pass it down one generation, which is impressive, you know, and not only did they not pass it down, they built and put into the world something really beautiful, which is my family, including my dad. And so leading into what you're talking about dad, it's something that I think about regularly more than you'd think, because maybe I have a history and orientation, but just the fact that that's a legacy that I have, that we all have, you know, shared humanity, but

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  what a thing to be able to live up to. Like, I don't have to be defined by the hardship and the tragedy in a negative way. It's like you can expect, you can see how other, other people have risen to that occasion and come out of it and created. And so when I find myself in a hard situation in the past or now or whatever, you know, you can, you have that to look at and hang on to. Having a choice. Yeah, you have a choice of how to relate to it. I mean, there were so many people and I, there's just like, you have every right to be fully traumatized and never recover. You know what I mean? Like I, there's no judgment on my front for that. But on the other hand, it's like, what about those few people that did somehow

• 1:11:00Speaker 02

  recover or what, you know, I don't know what you would call it, but they somehow built something in the world in spite of the like unimaginable horrors, you know, watching your family get killed and raped and all the things that went on and then just being able to. Build a loving family is pretty impressive.

• 1:11:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:18Tim Ferriss?

  Well, let's talk about your dad. I mean, whether by nature or nurture or both.

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:22Tim Ferriss?

  He made seemingly some pretty remarkable choices as well.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he grew up as obviously a son of immigrants in America and they raised by mostly his sister out on. And so he, all I think he really wanted was a family and stability and wanted to work hard. And you know, his most joyful moments as when I was growing up was just when he'd come home from work and we'd run out and give him a hug. Like, I think that was his, like, life most fully lived was just being a provider and being able to, you know, he was an engineer. So he was a smart guy and, you know, they're like, just create a family. That's really what he wanted. He was very family oriented. But then it was interesting because when he had also had childhood diabetes and polio.

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  So he had some health issues and he wasn't great at managing his diabetes well. So when he was probably about, I mean, I was pretty young, I guess, you know, I was still a teenager, probably. He started to, you know, get the sores on your feet that you get. And then basically because of the degrading situation with his feet, he lost his job. And all of a sudden, he had to watch as my mom had to go back to school, which was something that was very difficult for her because she was just not academic. But no longer could dad be the provider. He was basically somebody we had to care for because he ended up losing his foot and this and that. It was like a 12 year process of his health degrading.

• 1:12:54Speaker 02

  And it was really hard for him. Like he had to, you know, his mom's going to school and we had to go to the food bank. And I remember him just like crying like, oh, we, I failed. The one thing he wanted to do.

• 1:13:05Tim Ferriss?

  Brutal.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  And then his foot finally recovered and he and I went out in the woods and we were splitting wood. And he like crushed his foot into the log splitter.

• 1:13:14Tim Ferriss?

  Oh.

• 1:13:15Speaker 02

  And I was, deflate your sail. So then they just amputated his other foot. And so basically he lost his ability, his physical ability to. To pursue his purpose in the world. That was really difficult for him to do. He had to watch his family suffer and this and that. And then, but then it was interesting over the years to watch him. Well, so from my perspective as a son, from my mom's perspective ever as a wife, we never lost sight of his purpose, you know, like we, we knew who he was in our lives. It was never about the money he was bringing home or the this or that. It was like, man, he, what an encourager. And you know, what a joyful person and all that.

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  And we never lost sight of that. He did. But then it was interesting to see over the course of those 12 years of health degradation, how it was almost like he had to refine his purpose. And he did. And then when his health was at its worst and he was on dialysis and in tons of pain and stuff, was in a way when his like spiritual giftings or something were at their peak. Like he was really able to, I could hear him at night crying and pain and like, oh, oh. And then in the morning he would, oh, Jordan, you're doing great and this and that. And let's read this psalm together. Let's do this. You know, he was very much, he refound his purpose in pouring into us and into facing the loss of his health and his own death

• 1:14:40Speaker 02

  with joy. And that's what he did. He found, he was like, finally, he was like, man, it's, I'm in too much pain. It's too degrading. You know, to have me rolling him off the bed and I'll take him to dialysis. He's like, I'm just gonna stop going to dialysis. That was a hard decision for him, but when he did, it was just like, all right, let's just party for the next two weeks. You know, he was diabetic. So finally he could eat all the crap food he wanted. We all had tons of laughs and he was kind of full of joy right up until the end. And you're like, what a cool legacy to see someone face all that and see purpose, not in their life even, but even in how to face death and the way he did that. We're all going to be in the same position where we lose our, whether it our health or whatever.

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  Inevitable suffering is coming down the hatch. I now have a template for how to face that in a way that I'm still putting into the world some kind of light because I could see that it's not only possible, but I could see the template for doing that. So it's interesting having seen that. It really makes you grateful for the like, the blessing I have now and that I do know what I love to do and that I have an opportunity to share it with others. I know my, even like my purpose now as it is, but I also know that's going to have to evolve with inevitabilities of aging and, and everything else. And so it's interesting to make sure your priorities now are in such a way that as

• 1:16:05Speaker 02

  you have to shift directions, that you'll be able to make that adjustment. Like they should rhyme. It's not going to be something completely different. It's just going to evolve into a little bit different angle.

• 1:16:18Tim Ferriss?

  When you think of your dad's purpose changing over those 12 years, is one way to view it as him going from prioritizing how he acted in the world, like how he does things in the world to how he then supports and teaches the rest of you in the family. I mean, was he taking on more of a teacher role? Was it a supporter role? I mean,

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  Maybe not explicitly, but definitely implicitly. His gifting was that he really was an encourager and was really joyful and you know, people enjoyed being around him and he was able to lean into those skills, those gifts in spite of the fact that he couldn't walk or that he couldn't, didn't have hands or whatever. And so I think you lean into those giftings that you have that are not dependent on what you, on your ability to produce, you know, which is great while you have it.

• 1:17:17Tim Ferriss?

  After he stopped dialysis, how long did he last after that?

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  It was about a week. It wasn't as long even as we expected, you know, like it might be up to two weeks or whatever. At about, I think about a week in, his temperature spiked and then that was it. We were all around and.

• 1:17:32Tim Ferriss?

  Did you at the time? Understand his decision?

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  To be honest, I actually, he was really struggling with it because, you know, he was also a man of faith. And I remember him reading, you know, he was like, because he really was having a hard time hanging on, you know? Because of the pain, the amount of pain he was in and stuff. But he was like, it says here, you know, the Lord will never give you more than you can bear. And I remember actually in conversation with him, well, that's actually not true, Dad. Like, everybody that's died was given more than they can bear. It says it won't tempt you beyond your ability to bear, which is a different thing. You know, you're kind of on a different realm. And so we had that conversation. So it's not that I was, I wanted him to hang on as long as possible, but I also wanted him to have the freedom.

• 1:18:18Speaker 02

  We talked a lot about how it's weird in the modern world where you have this choice that we've never had in the past, where you have to now choose when to stop going to dialysis or stop doing this or that, or you can just drag on your inevitable downfall kind of forever. And so I think it was ultimately, it just came down to the fact that he wasn't ever going to get better. He recognized that he was in a lot of pain and I think he wanted to free in a that final act. You know, he kind of free us up to probably.

• 1:18:49Tim Ferriss?

  So I'm going to use the, some of the kind of promises and perils of modern healthcare, like you said, to extend the runway, sometimes in cases where the quality of life

• 1:19:04Tim Ferriss?

  just entails so much suffering or lack of awareness that it just, it raises a lot of ethical questions that we didn't have to face 200 years ago, 300 years ago. Just to take a closer look at modern living and specifically where I want to go with that is.

• 1:19:25Tim Ferriss?

  Maybe we could take it to our trip in the mountains because particularly since we weren't doing any hunting, if you're hunting, then you have to time your rhythm with your quarry and it's a different situation. But I remember asking you at one point, I was like, so when are we waking up tomorrow? And you're like, well, we want to wake up. And I suppose the, and this comes back to the Venky as well, and living in a settlement where you are managing someone else's property or an employee of the government versus having more flexibility in the way you structure your life in your days. And I would just love you to hear you riff

• 1:20:10Tim Ferriss?

  on sort of overstructure versus too little structure versus where humans kind of naturally fall.

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  The first glimpse I got of this way of life that we've lost in the modern context was actually riding trains where it's like you wake up in the morning. I don't have anything you have to do. I just got to figure out where to get food and water. And that's basically it.

• 1:20:30Tim Ferriss?

  Can you give us like a minute or two of just like, how on earth did you end up hopping trains?

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  The quick minute or two of that was that my brother had, for whatever reason, done it for years. He hitchhiked and didn't like relying on people to pick him up. Somehow he heard about riding trains, jumped on one, and probably a lot to do with this freedom that we're about to discuss, just loved it. And you know, and in 10 years, he basically there are seven or eight or 10, however many years, he just rode trains. And at some point when I was 18 or so invited me to go along. And, and so I did, which was probably a fork in my road, just from having a job and doing the stuff to all of a sudden.

• 1:21:08Tim Ferriss?

  Pretty, pretty wide fork. Yeah.

• 1:21:12Speaker 02

  But while you glimpse what I think is the appeal there is that that rhythm of life that humans are designed for, that we've lived for as long as humans have been around. Then I would really get immersed in again, living with the natives later where, yeah, you wake up and you have a things you have to do, but there's no particular schedule. They're all directly tied to your existence right now. You know, you're not working to make money to put in your 401k so that later this, you know, it's just all very direct. It's like, oh, Let's go catch some fish today. We're hungry or the reindeer might be getting away. Let's go herd them back. And you know, you kind of have these activities that are directly related to your life. And in that, you would know the proper terminology, but it feels

• 1:21:57Speaker 02

  like your dopamine and your serotonin and all that's kind of stuff is just lined up properly.

• 1:22:02Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you're living the way that we have evolved to live.

• 1:22:05Speaker 02

  Exactly. And so you're in the right mold basically for that. And I've described it before, but when you're successful on a hunt or when you're like, get into some good fish and you're in that rhythm. So you just couldn't be more joyful than that. There's just no more, that's it. It's your max human experiences. This is amazing. Yeah. You know, and we didn't have to earn a bunch of money. And it's just, it's just so much more accessible in a way.

• 1:22:32Tim Ferriss?

  Well, it also makes me think about, sorry to jump in, but when you were talking about your brother and his German shepherd, who had never done any herding and a couple of goats like running amok. And your brother started trying to gather them and the German shepherd just clicked into what it is artificially evolved to do. And boom, it was off to the races.

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  Fully in its rhythm of life.

• 1:23:01Tim Ferriss?

  Knew exactly what it needed to do. And humans are not that different.

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  No, not. And, and we have so many layers on top of that simplicity that sometimes it gets, it's all feels like hacks. You know, as we know, like even you look on your phone, I got seven likes. It's just a little hack of our berry picking receptors. But it's not, you never quite fully get there. It was always a little bit hard to articulate. I was like, I just, life feels just more realistic. You're more like in the world, but it's a little bit difficult to articulate.

• 1:23:37Tim Ferriss?

  Well, it seems very tangible in the sense that like you're dealing with fewer layers of abstraction.

• 1:23:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43Tim Ferriss?

  You're not like, I'm going to do this thing to then ensure this other thing that will give me more happiness in the future. It's like, hmm.

• 1:23:54Tim Ferriss?

  I know I'm gonna need to eat in a few hours, or I'd prefer to eat. Need to eat in a few hours. You get fast, but you're like, I kinda like to eat. I'd like to be warm.

• 1:24:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:04Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, I'd like to sleep tonight. So it's like, okay.

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  Cause and effect are very related.

• 1:24:10Tim Ferriss?

  It's very easy to track.

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:13Tim Ferriss?

  And not just track, but like have the gratification of individual cause and effect.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's very tangible. And it was so much so that this is only a working hypothesis, but when I was living with the natives, you know, had the issue that I, it wasn't my native language. And as much as they were, you know, I love those people and they're my friends. It wasn't like my family. It wasn't the people that you grew up with, you know? But I was like, I wonder if everybody would choose this way of life if it was in a little bit more pleasant climate. And with the too modern, with the too modern.

• 1:24:46Tim Ferriss?

  A little bit. Maybe negative 20 and not negative 50.

• 1:24:49Speaker 02

  Modern medicine and food security are amazing. And so aside from that, it's like, I wonder if people wouldn't choose this way of life? Even people that just have no idea that they might like the outdoors.

• 1:25:01Tim Ferriss?

  Can I give like a sidebar experience that sometimes comes along with this? You were talking about a little bit earlier today, but can you talk about the bear incident specifically that you're mentioning earlier? With your friend with the gun?

• 1:25:16Speaker 02

  We had, we were, this was a time where we'd kinda gone out in the woods and a bunch of, we'd taken a bunch of the younger dudes that were living in the village and kinda drinking. And my fur trapping buddy has his big fur trapping territory. And he was like, oh, you should get these kids out there and just like spend a summer, you know, and have them living off the land.

• 1:25:35Tim Ferriss?

  And just because I'm curious, is this sable or what are they?

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  Sable is what they fur trap. So we were out, spent a summer out on that territory, invited a handful of these guys. And it was great. We had a horse out there and, you know, cutting hay with, for it and all that with the si and living off the land, basically all that we fished and hunted. Well, one day we came out and I heard my buddy was sleeping and he woke up and he was like, and you could hear the dogs barking like crazy. Well, we woke up and I thought, man, that dumb dog, it just barks at every squirrel, this or that. And so I didn't get up and look. Well, my buddy goes out to brush his teeth and runs back. He says, there's a bear out there. So I jumped up and we look out and a bear just. Hundred and fifty yards, you know, not far at all from our cabin had killed a moose.

• 1:26:19Tim Ferriss?

  What kind of bears are we talking about?

• 1:26:20Speaker 02

  These are brown bears, just some kind of brown bear in Siberia and they are.

• 1:26:26Tim Ferriss?

  Bigger than a black bear.

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, bigger than a black bear, some kind of a grizzly. So we come out and the bear like took off up in the woods. They're like, what is that laying over there? You know, here enough is a big, fresh, warm moose. Right. Oh, no way. So we. It was a windfall for us. So of course they like cut it up and take it back to camp. We dug a big pit into the permafrost, you know, as a makeshift fridge and threw the meat in there. And then a few days later, that bear came back with a vengeance like. He was not pleased. He came back. First sign was one of our dogs just ran into the little cabin and under the bed or whatever. And then the other one, we started hearing barking outside. And then the bear was, it was a lot of tall brush in the area.

• 1:27:09Speaker 02

  So we could just hear, I could just hear the bear just through the ripping through the brush and then ripping this way and that. I was like, oh, it was pretty intense right off the bat. And I was like, holy crap. So I grabbed the SKS, which is like a assault rifle is basically what they use to hunt over there. And run out of the cabin and like go kind of towards where the dogs barking. And I figured the bear was over there. So I'm walking over towards this bark and then Yorke, one of the younger guys was behind me and when we just hear this, the bear was right behind us and snorted like whoa, like flip around and then it just charged through the alders and they're like, oh, well, that was crazy. Like, what's the dog barking?

• 1:27:49Speaker 02

  And so then you could hear this kerfuffle out in the woods. I was like, I'll hear you take the gun. I'm going to take the, my little three megapixel camera I had at the time.

• 1:27:58Tim Ferriss?

  And I love that. That's your reflex. Logan is taking some photos. Seems like a great, perfect time.

• 1:28:05Speaker 02

  It was a bad choice in the end, but I, anyway, gave the gun to Yorke. Same thing. We're like kind of paying attention to where we last heard the chaos. And again, the bear was behind us like move and snorted again. And Yorke just took off running with the gun and he full on ran and disappeared from my sight. I had had, you know, my knee issues we discussed earlier. So I actually couldn't run nor would I want to from a predator. So I kind of just stood there. I was like. Like, oh my gosh, like I'm just here.

• 1:28:34Tim Ferriss?

  Now what do I do with my?

• 1:28:35Speaker 02

  3.5 megapixel camera. And so anyway, he was gone a long, it felt like a very long time. It was right at 30 seconds to a minute. Like a good enough long time that I was like, what in the world? And then finally he comes back and his knees, he's like, I can't do this. My knees are shaking. And I was like, I was like, you got the gun, like, don't run. And then right as I said that, the bear like stood up in front of us. And he just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and filled his whole magazine into it and it took off. And, you know, we ended up getting it, which we, you know, then we laughed at him because we were joking around. But they had always been telling me like, you know, that's a Venky, one shot, one kill.

• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  And then it was like Vietnam. But then, uh, it was a crazy, you know, it's pretty intense. And then it was also interesting because I was the first bear that I was with him with when they killed. And they had this whole ritual because how they honored the bear, the word, the Venky word for bear is grandpa. Amaka. And then they, uh, take the eyeballs out. They took the eyeballs out and put them under a rock. So that when the spirit of the bear came back, it wouldn't see who did what to it. And then the funny, the better part was they took the dust and threw them in the river. So when it did come back, it would be the neighboring village.

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  That the dust signs floated to that caught the wrath. But yeah, that was a, that was a pretty intense little moment there.

• 1:30:03Tim Ferriss?

  We're going to do one more story. I mean, these are all going to be stories. We're going to do one more story. Some of the native hunters are better than others. I'm going to cue you.

• 1:30:13Tim Ferriss?

  Also involves moose, if I'm not mistaken. Canoe?

• 1:30:17Speaker 02

  Oh, this is great. Yeah. This is another hilarious story. So there were these two, in their mid sixties, women that were going to come out to the tribe. So there's this, the village, the native village, 500 people. It was about a 12 hour float from a place that's a common stop that the nomads often stop. So they had found out that we were gonna be there. So these old ladies are gonna come out and visit the tribe. Well, they got, it's just a 12 hour float. So you don't really need much to get there at the end of the day and can eat when you get there. So all they brought, as any native did, would be an axe. And so they untied their rope, it was an aluminum boat, and jumped in the boat and they're just floating along. Well, picture

• 1:31:02Speaker 02

  two, you know, senior citizen women floating down and there's a moose swimming across the, the lake and as, as you do, we gotta kill this thing, we'll be the heroes or whatever. So they rode up next to it and with the rope that was attached to the front of their boat, they lassoed over the, I don't know, was it the antlers or the neck of this thing? But at the same time, they had the axe, they pictured themselves like chopping it in the neck and trying to kill it. But of course, got traction on the shore and on the water before they were able to pull that off and took off into the woods and skied these ladies in this boat behind them, like several hundred yards up into the woods before it finally

• 1:31:45Speaker 02

  went through these two trees and snapped the rope off and it disappeared. And those ladies like, no, just were gone for a few days. Sit by the side of the river till the next people, they couldn't carry their boat. So they just sat there until finally somebody floated by that could help them drag their boat back to the water. And the lady, they made it out, the lady was very funny because she was, we then had to get back to the village eventually. It was like, you know, by land, it was like a 30 kilometer reindeer ride. And that poor lady, and I had the same problem. I would always fall off the reindeer. And but she was the only other person that apparently had that problem. Cause they just put the saddle

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  on loosely. It's not like a horse saddle where you kind of cinch it up. They just throw it on and it kind of wobbles, but they get used to it. And so they can kind of ride along and, and it took me a long time to use to, but obviously it took her also a long time. And I was walking, but over in the rain and that poor lady, every time we crossed a river or a puddle or anything, it was They keep lifting her back on, but it was very funny. That was a great, great story. I just, they're a different breed of people that when grandma sees the moose swimming across the river.

• 1:33:02Tim Ferriss?

  Goes to hatchet it in the neck.

• 1:33:06Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So I'd be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about Alone, which is probably the only, let's call it reality TV show that I've watched two full seasons of in the last

• 1:33:20Speaker 02

  Which were they?

• 1:33:20Tim Ferriss?

  Decade, six and seven.

• 1:33:21Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:33:22Tim Ferriss?

  The word on the street, otherwise known as the internet, was that season six, which you were a part of, and season seven were kind of two of the highlights.

• 1:33:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:34Tim Ferriss?

  With some insane fucking events that transpire in these two seasons. If you ever have to, you know, I had to, well, had to, I chose after elbow surgery to do hyperbaric oxygen treatments.

• 1:33:47Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:33:47Tim Ferriss?

  For a host of reasons. Sidebar on that, if you're gonna do that, needs to be hard shell, medical grade, you know, typically like two to 2.5 atmospheres. Don't do any soft shell stuff. It's a waste of time. But what do you do? You're just sitting there. And especially in a hard shell, you can't bring anything in. But they set up TVs. And so, so my guilty pleasure turned into watching these multiple seasons of Alone. So for the season that you were a part of, the format of the show changed a bit over time. But it was referred to along the lines of kind of the, the Super Bowl of survival, right?

• 1:34:31Tim Ferriss?

  And in your particular season, season six, what was the format?

• 1:34:36Speaker 02

  The quick summary of the show is you had 10 people go out in the woods all by yourself. You self film. It's all, and you get to pick 10 basic tools, like an axe and a ferro rod and a sleeping bag and a few things like that. And then they drop you all off in different areas in the wilderness and the person that lasts the longest wins. And hypothetically, you know, indefinitely, I think maybe there was a year cut off, but. Hypothetically, a year plus, you might stay out there if people really get into a groove. So, so yeah, that was the format of the season. It's a fairly simple concept.

• 1:35:09Tim Ferriss?

  What was the location?

• 1:35:11Speaker 02

  Northwest Territories, Canada. So we're just south of the Arctic Circle, right? Yeah, right at the.

• 1:35:16Tim Ferriss?

  Not warm.

• 1:35:17Speaker 02

  Not warm, not warm, but conveniently very similar parallel to where I was in Siberia.

• 1:35:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I, yeah, very, I mean, the, it seems like having watched two seasons and some other shows also that I mean, Alone is my favorite. I mean, you learn so much if you're into any degree of.

• 1:35:38Speaker 02

  It's a great show, honestly.

• 1:35:39Tim Ferriss?

  You really learn a lot because you get to see a lot of different approaches and what seems to work and what doesn't. There are multiple approaches that seem to work.

• 1:35:47Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:35:48Tim Ferriss?

  Right? Like.

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  Just don't build a cabin.

• 1:35:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, just, just, I mean, no, seriously, don't try to build like Abraham Lincoln log cabin, that image in your mind, don't try to do that. But then you got like Stonehouse and season seven, like, I mean, I probably wouldn't have tried to do it because I'd be afraid of like blowing a gasket.

• 1:36:06Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:36:06Tim Ferriss?

  But it worked.

• 1:36:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:07Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, very different from the shelter that you built.

• 1:36:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:10Tim Ferriss?

  Let's talk about the tools for a second.

• 1:36:12Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:36:13Tim Ferriss?

  Because there were things that were not, would not be obvious to someone watching the show that I found interesting. For instance, when we were out in the woods, you showed me, this is going to require a little explanation. So you'll have to explain what basic paracord could be used for.

• 1:36:27Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:36:28Tim Ferriss?

  But that you've got this, looks like a transatlantic cable of paracord.

• 1:36:35Speaker 02

  Which was not allowed on the show.

• 1:36:36Tim Ferriss?

  It was not allowed.

• 1:36:37Speaker 02

  You had to have basic.

• 1:36:38Tim Ferriss?

  But it's a single cord that has like fishing line and filament and all sorts of things.

• 1:36:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, super handy little.

• 1:36:46Tim Ferriss?

  Never seen it. What is that called?

• 1:36:47Speaker 02

  It's called survival cord and it has, you know, a tinder material inside of it. You can pull out, it's kind of a wax coated. Thing catches spark well and then it has a snare like Kevlar cable. So you make a snare and then it has a fishing line and then the regular string that usually comes in the paracord. And paracord is just a string that has an outer sheath and then a bunch of little inner strands that are more like individual strings and they're kind of twisted together and make for a strong rope. Or you can break it down into useful bits.

• 1:37:18Tim Ferriss?

  Turn into a gill net.

• 1:37:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, turn into a gill net, which is.

• 1:37:21Tim Ferriss?

  Which proved to be, seems to be one of the winning.

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, gill net's hard to beat. It's such a passive way of collecting food and they're.

• 1:37:28Tim Ferriss?

  What is a gill net?

• 1:37:29Speaker 02

  A gill net is a, it's just a big net that you throw in the water and set in the water in such a way that fish swimming by get caught in it and fish can't back up. So when they swim into a net, if it's sized properly to their body and gills, they'll get caught in it and then they just sit there.

• 1:37:47Tim Ferriss?

  So just for definition of terms, snare kind of similar, right? In the sense that you're trying to get a given animal around the neck.

• 1:37:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:56Tim Ferriss?

  And you have to size it properly.

• 1:37:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. So snaring is another, uh, in an actual survival situation, it's kind of the, not the golden ticket, but incredibly important. You know, it's also usually illegal in most places because it's really effective. But if you're really starving, it would be, yeah, you'd size to what you're trying to catch. So like a hair would be about the size of your fist. You make a piece of wire or if you only have string, a loop about that big, set it on the trail and do some things to try to.

• 1:38:27Tim Ferriss?

  Sorry, I'm laughing because another story just came to mind.

• 1:38:33Tim Ferriss?

  So in another example of footage, you're not going to see on the show. So I give them points. A medical team would come out, right? And check on participants. And I can't remember the exact parameters, but if you're like losing too much body weight or.

• 1:38:50Speaker 02

  They'd schedule occasional visits to, to get your SD cards, give you new batteries and then just make sure you're, you know, not critically in danger with your health.

• 1:39:00Tim Ferriss?

  Of Oregon failure or something like that. Now, I think you were telling me that one point when they were doing a medical check for you, that you'd set up, ah, remind me what this called for squirrel pole.

• 1:39:13Speaker 02

  A squirrel pole.

• 1:39:14Tim Ferriss?

  The squirrels like to run up things and then across.

• 1:39:17Speaker 02

  Exactly. They have a power line in front of your house.

• 1:39:19Tim Ferriss?

  So what, what is, yeah, explain how you just roughly how you build this thing.

• 1:39:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, whatever reason squirrels are, they just love running up things and then across things. And so, you know, that's why you see them running on the power lines and everywhere. And so you can take advantage of that to catch them by clearing all the branches off of a couple of trees and then running a pole between those two trees and then throwing a couple of snares along that pole. And eventually some squirrel will run up it, zip across, especially if you see one in the area.

• 1:39:49Tim Ferriss?

  What does that look like when a, when a medical check is being done right behind?

• 1:39:53Speaker 02

  It was kind of funny because it was early on. It was like, you know, maybe the second week or something and they, they still had this crew member guy who I thought was hilarious because they, you know, of course it's alone. So they try to be really stoic. They don't want to give you like actual human interaction. But this one guy was just like, whoa, hell yeah, this is awesome. Like you really liked what was going on out there, but they all come walking in for the.

• 1:40:17Tim Ferriss?

  You're set up.

• 1:40:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, for the medical check and scared a squirrel and it ran up and hung itself. And it was like sitting there kicking while the guys walked by, but he was that one British guy in particular, well, oh, hell yeah. It's like, oh man, thanks guys. And so that was kind of funny about the, they accidentally helped me cheat there.

• 1:40:38Tim Ferriss?

  So how long, how long did you ultimately last?

• 1:40:42Speaker 02

  Seventy seven days.

• 1:40:43Tim Ferriss?

  Seventy seven days. And is it fair to say that last is the wrong word to use because my understanding in conversations with you is that it was, of course, television has to be edited in such a way that everyone is going through this crucible with.

• 1:41:02Tim Ferriss?

  Coming close to glancing off the breaking point.

• 1:41:05Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 1:41:06Tim Ferriss?

  But it doesn't seem like it was that hard for you.

• 1:41:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it really wasn't. It could have been, like, you know, it's the woods. You never know what's gonna happen, but man, that was going really well. I actually, you know, I snared a bunch of rabbits, had like 20 something plus rabbits before I got the moose, which I got a moose at day 20. And then from then on, I really nailed the fishing and I just was piling up food like crazy. And just because of my previous experience for, you know, years at a time in Russia, I wasn't a couple, few, three, four months there. Just didn't seem like a long time away from the family because I knew our relationship was strong and generally could handle it. And I'd come back and we'd catch up and it'd all be good.

• 1:41:49Speaker 02

  But I bore a lot of stress because I didn't know how long the show would last. So I was.

• 1:41:55Tim Ferriss?

  Which is something that changed in season seven.

• 1:41:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a big difference in season seven, but then the next season they capped it at 100 days, which had that been my season would have been interesting because I, once you get the moose, I could have just basically partied and, you know, enjoyed myself. But because I got this moose, it was a lesson I learned, a lesson that I learned.

• 1:42:14Tim Ferriss?

  That was the first large mammal harvest.

• 1:42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:18Tim Ferriss?

  On the show, right?

• 1:42:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And something that I really noticed out there was I should have been more present in the moment because I did allow myself to stress about this future. You know, I was like, okay, I got a moose. Now I'm getting fish. Surely somebody else is. So, man, we're gonna be out here at six, eight months and I lost some fat, so now I'm gonna lose. So I had like, so I can't be out here eight months and lose. So I was, uh, bearing a lot of stress because I didn't actually, as much as I would advise myself if I were to go on again, like just be in the present. You know, don't worry about that future. What happened is, yeah, I was gunning for 140 days before I even thought it might end and hadn't even allowed the thought to cross my mind that it would.

• 1:43:01Speaker 02

  Had a lot of food to get there and then it ended at day 77. I can't say I ever thought I was gonna win. Like, I didn't, I went out there to win because I wasn't like trying to prove anything, but I was just, you know, you try to keep going stride, keep, just see what happens. I'm just gonna go out there and see if I can be sustainable. But I was genuinely shocked when it ended and thought it was gonna go quite a bit longer, so.

• 1:43:23Tim Ferriss?

  Let me tackle a couple of things.

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:25Tim Ferriss?

  Because. There are a number of details that I think might be instructive to get into.

• 1:43:32Tim Ferriss?

  So first, let's talk about the basic tools. I'm amazed, I don't want to give too many spoilers, but like one of your competitors made a shocking decision, which was to not bring a ferro rod. And that was, that was, that was, that was, that was a very risky maneuver. Ended up making it work, but in part, he was very good with something called a bow drill. Look up bow drill online, we probably, but it's using friction to create a fire. But if you're accustomed to using softer wood and then you go into Alpine territory.

• 1:44:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:05Tim Ferriss?

  And it's much, much, much harder wood, you got a problem on your hands.

• 1:44:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was able to find a cedar board, which doesn't grow up there.

• 1:44:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. You're allowed to use anything that you find, so tin cans or barrels or whatever.

• 1:44:20Tim Ferriss?

  Effectively, human garbage or things that have been washed up on the shore. So 10 basic tools, what did you choose to bring?

• 1:44:27Speaker 02

  I took an axe, a saw, a Leatherman, which is like a multi tools, a knife and pliers and stuff. And a frying pan and a ferro rod, a sleeping bag, a bow, an arrow, you get like bows and arrow, a fishing kit, trapping wire and paracord. And trapping wire was just a thin gauge, solid stainless steel wire.

• 1:44:59Tim Ferriss?

  And then you could create the gill net out of the paracord?

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I got the, I've thought about bringing a gill net, but then I just thought I'll bring a paracord. I can make a gill net and the paracord will come in handy for other things too, so.

• 1:45:11Tim Ferriss?

  What are some common mistakes? If you look at what people choose to bring, what are certain things they choose to bring? Let's leave aside a gill net, right? Because we already covered that you can create that. What are some other, would you say, mistakes?

• 1:45:25Speaker 02

  I mean, I always with my own biases, always think when someone doesn't bring an axon on, really? But I have my own, you know, how are you going to get through the ice and how are you they're just they're so handy. But I brought a saw, which in hindsight, I probably should have just brought a gill net and had two instead of making the one and have it, you know, anyway, I do think not bringing a fire starters, a poor choice, because it's just so much stress, you know, you have to bear so much stress of not letting your fire go out and everything's harder. So you have to be really conscious of the fact that things like staying hydrated is super important. And so if there's an extra step to hydration, you're going to drink a little bit less water.

• 1:46:08Tim Ferriss?

  Just to be clear, if you're drinking out of a natural source, you want to boil that water?

• 1:46:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, you typically you'll want to boil it. So if you're going to boil it and then you have to like, start a bow drill fire to boil your water, then all of a sudden.

• 1:46:20Tim Ferriss?

  You're also burning a lot of calories.

• 1:46:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just becomes a stressor. You don't want your fire to go out at night because you got to wake up. So I think that's a big one. Some people are really good with bow drills, but I still think it's not worth the trade off. Yeah. Well, I was really into bringing a bow. I mean, you do need practice with a bow to be effective with it, but I can't tell you how much time I spent enjoying myself just hiking through the woods because I could maybe shoot a squirrel or maybe get a grouse.

• 1:46:47Tim Ferriss?

  That's well, that's something that stood out to me is that, and I think one of the stronger competitors in season seven did something very similar where it wasn't that you would necessarily go out on a dedicated large mammal, or let's just say you wouldn't go out on a dedicated hunt. But if you went out to do anything, you just bring the bow.

• 1:47:06Speaker 02

  Take the bow. Yeah. Because it's like on your way to your fishing spot or on your way to get firewood. And it just gives you always something to do. And it gives you always that, oh, is there a rabbit or is there something? So you're kind of having more, you're more engaged. Whereas if I didn't have, hadn't taken the bow, it would have been a lot of time where it's like, boy.

• 1:47:23Tim Ferriss?

  What do I do?

• 1:47:24Speaker 02

  How many arrows are you allowed to bring? Nine.

• 1:47:26Tim Ferriss?

  Nine.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know why. Seems like a lot or a little. I don't know.

• 1:47:33Tim Ferriss?

  Committee had a long debate that landed on nine, but that's, that's actually.

• 1:47:38Speaker 02

  Substantial number of arrows. I never had an issue with.

• 1:47:41Tim Ferriss?

  What type of tips did you bring?

• 1:47:42Speaker 02

  So I brought blunt tips, which are judo points, except they weren't specifically judo points to get in the nuance. But yeah, you don't want a sharp blade when you're shooting small game because you don't want to just shoot right through the animal. You want to like hit it and blunt force, kind of knock it out and kill it. And so for small game, I had five of those and then I had four broadheads, which are just sharp blades.

• 1:48:08Tim Ferriss?

  What type of, how many blades?

• 1:48:10Speaker 02

  Two blade. They were VPA, like just solid steel broadheads, no, just so that they were tough and I could, yeah, sharpen them on the fly and all that.

• 1:48:21Tim Ferriss?

  So the moose corralling or fencing, I mean, fencing gives people an image that maybe is not exactly the right image.

• 1:48:28Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:48:29Tim Ferriss?

  But animals are really good at taking the path of least resistance.

• 1:48:33Speaker 02

  Right, right. This is, it's something you employ when you're trying to snare them, when you're trying to do anything to catch an animal. You just take advantage of the fact that we all take the path of least resistance.

• 1:48:43Tim Ferriss?

  So what do you, what do you do?

• 1:48:44Speaker 02

  So I was actually out there, you know, I'd done a lot of calling, a lot of placing my shelter in the proper wind location and doing all this to make, try to make a moose encounter happen. And I had set up a tripwire that would signal a tin can so that it would like, if a moose came by, I would know. And then I went out, had a 40 yard shot at a moose and I missed. And long story short, it was a big fail on my part, but I remember watching that moose run away, just like, oh, idiot. Like, how'd you do that? You know, you get used to screwing up and failing. When you're in the woods like that by yourself, whining isn't going to help. There's nobody else you can blame anything on. It's like, you literally better solve your problem or you're screwed.

• 1:49:27Speaker 02

  So I was like, I was disappointed I missed the moose, but at the same time I was immediately, it's still running away. I was like, how do I make this happen again? Like I got, like, it just made me more determined to learn from what I just did. And then as I was watching it run away, it just kind of dawned on me that there's, I mean, I don't know how far apart, but say 500 yards. You know, there's just kind of hills, two hills. It's not like there were cliffs or anything, but hills. Animals are going to go through the low point there because it's easy. And then I just remember, oh, we built those fences in Russia. Like, should I really? Because what had happened, it had come on a kind of unexpected path. So I wasn't really quite set up to get them. But I was like, well, I guess I'm not here to starve. I'm here to like, make it happen like a, I'm an action oriented

• 1:50:11Speaker 02

  person in that way. So I went over there and decided to try to build one of those fences and funnel the, because I remember even the natives saying before guns, they used to funnel animals with fences like that.

• 1:50:22Tim Ferriss?

  So can you explain, when you say fence, like that might involve chopping down some saplings, kind of knocking, knocking them over?

• 1:50:30Speaker 02

  Basic, yeah.

• 1:50:31Tim Ferriss?

  So that you're creating obstacles, something like a moose does not want to have to step over or navigate. So they go kind of where you intend them to go.

• 1:50:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So I had kind of set up the same tin can alarm system. And then I had found a nice shooting bush that I could shoot from and get to with relative cover. And then I built a fence. But again, it was just, I hadn't even finished it when it ended up working. But it was just, you know, in the, with the natives, we'd do four rows. So four rows of, you know, arm thick logs, kind of stacked in such a way that they hold up into a fence looking.

• 1:51:09Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. So it did look like.

• 1:51:10Speaker 02

  It did look like a fence when it's done. But I just initially did one rung, you know, like sort of the first rung and ran it all the way across.

• 1:51:18Tim Ferriss?

  How long did that take to create?

• 1:51:20Speaker 02

  Probably a couple of days.

• 1:51:21Tim Ferriss?

  I was gonna say, it sounds like.

• 1:51:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. It was a lot of work. And I was like, it was a calorie risk and expenditure, but it was clear I wasn't going to win if I was starving. And so I was just, I wanted to like, get food. And so I, uh, built that funnel. And then actually, not long after, I was out pulling a, again, I hadn't even finished it yet. I was pulling a rabbit out of a snare of all things. And I heard that can clank. I was like, oh, what is, something's coming. No way. Ran over there, stuck up to the bush and that moose just came strolling along my fence to the opening where I was. And I worked amazingly well. You know, it was the morning after I'd spent the whole evening calling the moose and was able to put an arrow in it and, uh.

• 1:52:01Tim Ferriss?

  What was the distance on that?

• 1:52:02Speaker 02

  Like 24 yards.

• 1:52:04Tim Ferriss?

  See, I mean, that's like. Right. That's the payoff. Forty yards. I mean, look, I

• 1:52:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:09Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, I do a lot of recurve and I would not put money on myself for forty yard shot on a moving target.

• 1:52:16Speaker 02

  Nor would I, but when you're starving.

• 1:52:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 1:52:20Speaker 02

  You have a couple of shots. It's actually doable. You can kind of correct, but in my miss, I had only had one arrow with me at the time. So, yeah. So I hit it and it was actually felt like a really good shot, but he took off. So, you know, I'm going to wait an hour, let him kind of just calmly, you know, if you're bow hunting, one thing you realize is like a lot of times the animal doesn't see you when you shoot it. And it's quiet and it gets hit. It doesn't know what happened. So it's going to run over somewhere and like lay down. It doesn't feel good. And so usually what that first place it lays down because it doesn't think it's getting chased per se. It just lays there and then it slowly bleeds out and it's, you know, about as calm of a way you can probably go as a wild animal.

• 1:53:02Speaker 02

  But what happens if you get too eager and start running after this animal, you put an arrow in is it'll, if it sees you, it'll then know it's getting chased and they'll get this second wind and just take off and run. And by then they'll no longer be bleeding as much and very often people lose animals like that. So fortunately I was aware of that. Waited a good long time.

• 1:53:26Tim Ferriss?

  You waited a while also. I mean, more than an hour.

• 1:53:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was about an hour and then I, well, and then I started tracking it and that's great blood trail. And then it just started to dry up and the ground had been like an old burn. And so it was hard and they weren't tracked. And I was like, no way am I going to lose this movie. So I get stressed like, no way. And I had that lost its blood trail and it was just sitting there thinking as well. The last thing I can do is it's going to take the path of least resistance. Once again, particularly when it's wounded. So I just, I did it a few times where I stood in the woods and then you just kind of walk through as if you were going to go, where does it take you and go with the flow? And sure enough, you know, 500 yards up or whatever there was laying there. Oh, no way.

• 1:54:11Speaker 02

  Duck down and it was still alive. And so I was 50 something yards away and it's like, man, I can either try to stick another arrow in it. In which case it's either going to run away. Maybe I kill it or maybe it charges me. And you got 30% chance of each. So as in my best bet is to just watch it and let it calmly finish its process. And so. That was a very long couple hours, honestly, watching it. It would stand up and I'd, my heart would sink like, no, no, no. And then it would lay back down like, ah, yes. It was stand up, very emotional roller coaster. And finally it stood up and tipped over and we were talking about earlier, but the

• 1:54:50Speaker 02

  joy that I felt is was irreplaceable and I could, you almost can't match it. I just that demon of starvation that for three weeks now, just chewing at you're gonna starve, you're gonna starve. Slade that.

• 1:55:04Tim Ferriss?

  How much meat do you get off a moose like?

• 1:55:06Speaker 02

  Oh, it was hard to say. I probably had I'd be a little bit guessing maybe four or 500 pounds. I don't know.

• 1:55:12Tim Ferriss?

  It's a big animal.

• 1:55:13Speaker 02

  Big animal. And then you have all the bone marrow and the brain and you know, organ stuff. Talk about, I don't know if people like eating liver, but I got myself sick of it. You got a liver the size of my body, you know, and I got, there's no way to preserve it. So you gotta eat that thing first.

• 1:55:31Tim Ferriss?

  Why can't you preserve the liver versus other things?

• 1:55:34Speaker 02

  Usually things that are really bloody, you know, like you have a lot of blood in them spoil fast. So same with like fish. If you catch a fish, there's a blood line in there that you want to scrape out or it'll spoil. And gills carry bloods. You want to rip those out or it'll spoil. Any animal that you're going to preserve, you just want to make sure it's bled really well. And liver, for whatever reason, is just

• 1:55:55Tim Ferriss?

  saturated.

• 1:55:55Speaker 02

  saturated. And there's no way to drain it, you know, so. No, man, I had plenty of vitamins there for a while.

• 1:56:05Tim Ferriss?

  God, I'm just thinking of the OD of vitamins that you have.

• 1:56:08Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. It's a little bit of a concern.

• 1:56:10Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. For you adventurous eaters out there, don't eat a polar bear liver in one sitting.

• 1:56:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's fatal.

• 1:56:17Tim Ferriss?

  Vitamin A will do you in.

• 1:56:21Tim Ferriss?

  So you mentioned you had some fat stolen. Noticed some very unique earrings on your wife this morning. These may tie together.

• 1:56:33Speaker 02

  What so happens?

• 1:56:35Tim Ferriss?

  What were the, what were the earrings?

• 1:56:37Speaker 02

  Man, so you get, you know, you're out there and you're, things are going well, but you're still living on the edge, you know, and little mistakes can be the difference between surviving or not. And so.

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  You know, even the process of keeping your self hydrated, like we talk about is elaborate and involved and thought out. Walk into your fishing holes. Like, oh, I better take some ash so I can sprinkle on the really icy spots. And you know, everything's thought out. And so the last thing you need is this whole extra variable coming in and adding a bunch of difficulty. Well, one morning I went out and I'd set my meat out on a shelf with this like kind of half hearted, not half hearted, but you know, maybe a barrel come. And if a bear comes, I can shoot that from my shelter. So I could maybe double up and get it almost like a ready made bait pile. But I hadn't even really thought about the fact is that there's wolverines up there and that they might show up and I might not hear it or

• 1:57:31Speaker 02

  notice it as much. And so I came out one morning and I stored probably 90,000 calories worth of fat in this gallon jug. I don't know how much is in a gallon, but full gallon of fat. And I came out and there was like the day I was like, okay, I'm going to render that fat. And I come and I started looking around like, what are these tracks? Like, huh? That's interesting. And then it just, you slowly start to have something dawn. You're like, no. And then I've noticed my jug was gone. And then I was like, oh, those are Wolverine tracks. And like, oh no, it was like ran down the tracks, you know, pointless that thing's long gone. And so I came back and I was like, oh no, I'm like, got a Wolverine here. And one thing you notice about the woods, when you have meat, every forest freeloader

• 1:58:14Speaker 02

  knows you have the meat. And so like all the Jays and all the, you know, the wolves were coming around and the Wolverine now and just everybody's coming to get your meat. And that Wolverine, they're known as being some of the most ferocious animals, you know, on earth. And just, they're like that honey badger video everybody's seen, but they're much larger and on steroids.

• 1:58:35Tim Ferriss?

  It's like a, I guess it's technically in the weasel family. It's like if you took a weasel and put it on every performance enhancing drug imaginable, like.

• 1:58:48Tim Ferriss?

  Dolph Lundgren and Rocky IV.

• 1:58:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:51Tim Ferriss?

  And, and gave it on top of that, just like a very irritable combative demeanor.

• 1:58:55Speaker 02

  I mean, they're not huge, like forty pounds or whatever, but they fight off wolf packs. They take down full grown moose.

• 1:59:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So just think about that for a second, guys. Forty pound animal. How much does a moose weigh?

• 1:59:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, a thousand pounds.

• 1:59:09Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, that's insane.

• 1:59:10Speaker 02

  They just grab on and there's been stories of them holding on to a moose's neck for days until the thing suffocates of, of blood loss and die. Just like.

• 1:59:20Tim Ferriss?

  So terrifying.

• 1:59:21Speaker 02

  And so they make up for their size and just being aggressive. And I was my first time of really dealing with one like that. And so, and I was, he kept surprising me with how bold he was, you know, kind of figure, okay, that'll take care of it. And then all of a sudden, whoa, right in front of me, and he run by and grab a chunk of meat and run off. You go, no way. And so basically there were, it came down to the fact that it was either me or him on this island. And that was very clear. And he was claiming my meat and this and that. And I made a long tripwire again for him and.

• 1:59:55Tim Ferriss?

  With the cam.

• 1:59:56Speaker 02

  With the can, which it proved to be a really useful tool. And then, uh, yeah, one night I heard that thing clank, came out of my shelter. This was after the previous night of the similar situation happening and I didn't take a shot at the Wolverine because he was behind a bush. And so this next night I was like, I'm just, if I get a chance, I'm gonna take it. Came out and he was behind a bush. I could see his eyes glowing and I just sent an arrow in there and it ricocheted through and hit him, but I could see him spinning around. I didn't know what was exactly how I had hit him. So I just grabbed the axe and ran over there and I got over there and he lunged at me and I could still, I could see like.

• 2:00:32Tim Ferriss?

  Pinned him to the ground.

• 2:00:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, but he had like been pinned to the ground and the part of the arrow was stuck in the ground and part of us hung up in the alders. So it like caught his lunge. And I swung and it eviscerated him. And then he spun around and was like grabbing at his own injury. And then I swung again and again, you know, but, but I definitely have this mental image of his teeth and his jump right at me like to see his face.

• 2:00:57Tim Ferriss?

  Good he was pinned.

• 2:00:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was good. He was pinned. I mean, I, I think I would have still won, but it would have been a lot more of a, we would have both suffered a lot more.

• 2:01:05Tim Ferriss?

  I think you would have suffered a lot more.

• 2:01:06Speaker 02

  A lot more.

• 2:01:09Speaker 02

  I was hoping I would win.

• 2:01:13Speaker 02

  But no, it was a, it was a dead, it was a very primal moment. That's all I could say about it. Like I was, the moose was so thoughtful and the, and the Wolverine was just one of those things where you're like, what just happened? Like, that was crazy. I can't believe that just happened. Anyway, it solved this problem that had been harrowing me for weeks by that point. It was pretty liberating.

• 2:01:33Tim Ferriss?

  Now his claws have been turned into your wife's earrings.

• 2:01:36Speaker 02

  So I had to make some earrings out of those claws and gift them to my wife. They're pretty nice.

• 2:01:40Tim Ferriss?

  So to bring in something that was, I don't think people would pick up on watching season six. There's a point where, as I think you put it to me when we were out in the woods, you were like, in effect, right? Up to that point, you'd been making plans, executing the plan, sort of living on offense, if that makes sense. But you kill a Wolverine. And so there's this kind of mystery in the show people might not immediately pick up on, which is not the only Wolverine around, right?

• 2:02:16Speaker 02

  Right. We were allowed to kill one Wolverine.

• 2:02:19Tim Ferriss?

  Well, that's the thing, right?

• 2:02:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, you had like a tag. You had to follow these rules.

• 2:02:22Tim Ferriss?

  That's not something that is

• 2:02:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:25Tim Ferriss?

  Is artfully omitted from the final cut.

• 2:02:30Speaker 02

  I only had about a day of relief before I heard another Wolverine. I was like, no. But this time I was in defense and it just happened to line up with the time of year where I had this very tangible mental shift that went from me being in that, you know, when you're in fight or flight, I was in fight. I was in like a proactive mode, like you say, making plans, making things happen. Well, now the ice was freezing on the lake and I couldn't go out and fish. And so couldn't fish.

• 2:02:56Tim Ferriss?

  At least in the normal way.

• 2:02:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, in the normal way. I couldn't even go walk on the ice to ice fish yet.

• 2:03:01Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 2:03:01Speaker 02

  So there's a couple of week period there where it's just hard to fish. And then I had all the rabbits I needed, honestly. I had so much protein with the moose that there's no reason for me to go kill or snare rabbits. So I didn't do that.

• 2:03:15Tim Ferriss?

  Also AKA toilet paper, right?

• 2:03:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:18Tim Ferriss?

  What did you use for toilet paper?

• 2:03:20Speaker 02

  The rabbit feet.

• 2:03:24Speaker 02

  It was quite luxurious.

• 2:03:26Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, continue.

• 2:03:29Speaker 02

  Your imaginations can carry the rest of it. And then this Wolverine came and I had to only play defense. And it was a very tangible shift that I went from being in control of my own destiny to all of a sudden being on this. What felt like a downhill trajectory is like I've collected everything I can collect. And now I just see what happens and try to defend against the Wolverine. And all I can do is wait for the ice to, you know, it felt like a very different frame of mind and, and that was, you know, a more difficult period to get.

• 2:03:59Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, all these animals have optimized to steal food, right?

• 2:04:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's all they do.

• 2:04:03Tim Ferriss?

  And, and so especially something like Wolverine, it's like you can take the bark off of the

• 2:04:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:04:10Tim Ferriss?

  pillars, holding up your elevated platform, but.

• 2:04:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I made a cool platform. The Avankia had showed me, you know, I'd built a bunch of them with the natives and.

• 2:04:19Tim Ferriss?

  Participant in the labor season almost killed himself trying to copy that.

• 2:04:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's a certain technique to how to build them, which was useful to know to do it safely. But you're also calculating like not using unnecessary calories. And so I should have finished it. There's actually a, you box in that raised platform and then you build a box on top. And it's pretty everything proof. But of course, again, that Wolverine kept surprising me. So I had built the platform, done a few tricks to try to keep it from getting up there. And then it got up there and by then it was like, shoot, I should have built the thing, but you know, anyway. So, yep, learning on the fly and trying to react accordingly.

• 2:04:59Tim Ferriss?

  Most people in modern life, they have their, I'm making this up, right? Random meal, but they're like salmon or chicken breast, some veggies, maybe some pasta or sweet potato, who knows? But you mentioned the fat being stolen.

• 2:05:18Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:05:19Tim Ferriss?

  And people can look up something called a rabbit starvation too, but. How important is fat?

• 2:05:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you learn that really fast also. And that was the first time just solely living off the land that I had where I didn't have any noodle backup or any, anything like that. And so for an extended period of time, so I, uh, I was curious how long you could live off a rabbit. I was curious, you know, all this kind of stuff. And what I learned quite quickly was your body needs fat right away. And every day you're burning your fat reserves or fat you're bringing in. The protein, it's actually more attainable out there. There's a lot of little animals and a lot of things, even mushrooms have protein in them, but the fat is the bottleneck of survival for sure. And so that's why we love it, I guess. But it was, uh, it just proved and it was so interesting

• 2:06:07Speaker 02

  to observe the animals is how honed everybody was in on just the fat, the wolverine, the crows, the jays, everything would just try to get the fattest part of your fish or

• 2:06:17Tim Ferriss?

  eyeballs.

• 2:06:18Speaker 02

  Eyeballs, brain, skin, and they would leave the chunks of meat, like a big fish, they'd strip to strip the skin off, eat kind of the fatty belly area, the eyes.

• 2:06:28Tim Ferriss?

  Grizzlies do the same thing too, right? Like when they're grabbing salmon, if

• 2:06:32Speaker 02

  So you can learn.

• 2:06:33Tim Ferriss?

  plentiful enough, they're, they eat the brain, leave, leave, leave all the meat.

• 2:06:38Speaker 02

  Yep, it's pretty interesting. So yeah, that's the fuel of the forest out there.

• 2:06:45Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So let's talk about some new projects. Well, first of all, sorry, not really first of all, but lest I forget, where can people get one of these incredible axes?

• 2:06:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:57Tim Ferriss?

  I have one. People do not, you know, just run around your living room swinging this like a toy. It's not a toy, but

• 2:07:03Speaker 02

  It's a tool.

• 2:07:03Tim Ferriss?

  But it's a, it's a uniquely designed. I don't want to say all in one, but multi-purpose tool.

• 2:07:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think if like people take the time to learn it and learn its nuances, you'll love it, but there's a learning curve to it because it is like a kind of a finely. Tuned machine, but the uh, Jordan Jonas dot com. I have a website, Jordan Jonas and Jordan Jonas dot com. There's, you know, you slash axe, you can get that. There's two versions. There's a, this is a little bit smaller version. It's easier to carry when you're backpacking and stuff. And then I have like the fuller, bigger version that if you're on the farm or car camping, things like that, has a little more heft and.

• 2:07:44Tim Ferriss?

  All right. And then if people and you and I have to book some time before this goes live so that I don't screw myself here. But if people want to experience what it's like to go into the wilderness with you, which I highly recommend, if you can do it, guys, you will learn a ton. It is, you will not be able to absorb everything. Like there's, there's going to be a lot that you pick up and are able to practice, which was so fun. Like not just some of the finer details of fundamental survival skills, but learning how to use a relatively simple tool like a tenkara rod.

• 2:08:27Tim Ferriss?

  Right. But just learning how to utilize a simple tool. Well, right. Same with the axe. So how can people learn more about?

• 2:08:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, same, same deal. It's like, you know, the Instagram, the follow along YouTube.

• 2:08:42Tim Ferriss?

  Jordan Jonas also.

• 2:08:45Speaker 02

  Instagram. Yeah. And Jordan Jonas dot com is where I have access to sign up for courses and sign up for, you know, there's hunts available there and stuff that people can guide you on. But yeah, they do book pretty quick. Like this season's booked, but it's like I'm all about taking people out on private trips and stuff. You just have to kind of get in early or wait for my schedule to come out for next year and try to squeeze in. I love them, man. It's been such a cool way to share what I love. I talked about it earlier with the purpose. It's kind of a, I've have this stage of my life. The purpose is to find and trying to share the lessons that I've gained with others and I really enjoy it, find it meaningful and I know people get a lot out of it. So I would love to see some folks out there.

• 2:09:30Tim Ferriss?

  So speaking of purpose.

• 2:09:32Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:09:33Tim Ferriss?

  The book.

• 2:09:34Speaker 02

  No, yeah.

• 2:09:35Tim Ferriss?

  What are you up to? Why write a book?

• 2:09:37Speaker 02

  My wife and I talk about it fairly often that it's like, we have a life that is very good, very full and on a lot of levels, I would say, like emotionally, spiritually, on the family. Big blessing. When I was on a loan too, it kind of struck me. I was like, this is a, well, how's this situation that's so difficult? Or I mean, even life changing for people. It just kind of felt like another trip to Russia or like, it felt very normal for me. I was like, I wonder what prepared me in life to make this kind of unusual situation seem normal.

• 2:10:11Tim Ferriss?

  And just to provide the counter to that, I mean, people break on this show.

• 2:10:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:10:17Tim Ferriss?

  In a lot of, in a lot of different ways.

• 2:10:19Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:10:21Tim Ferriss?

  Sometimes in very traumatic fashion.

• 2:10:22Speaker 02

  Hmm. And so I, it made me a little bit introspective about what had prepared me for it. Well, and in doing, thinking about those things, I was like, man, there really are some patterns of my being that have created, you know, and Tim, if you guys listen, know, he's really good at naming things and putting it place on it, but have created like a reservoir of resilience that I can tap into and that is well exercised. And I, and I just thought it would be really interesting to share with people through the story of my life and all these kind of fun stories, but also some of the keys to living a life well, really, but by building a resilience

• 2:11:05Speaker 02

  that'll help that. And what is interesting is you want to build that resilience before you find yourself in the situation. Cause once you find yourself in the situation, it's often a little late. And so the key is to come through hard times and trials.

• 2:11:21Speaker 02

  You know, anybody can get through it, but you want to get through it and be positive and be putting light into the world. So it's me trying to help.

• 2:11:29Tim Ferriss?

  Like your grandparents.

• 2:11:30Speaker 02

  Like my grandparents, like my dad. It's me trying to help people learn the lessons that I've learned that might help make their reservoir of resilience, you know, fill up so that, uh, they're, you know, able to confront things as they come. So it's a fun project. I got Harper Collins and I partnered up on it and it'll be what I work on this year. So it's been fun starting.

• 2:11:53Tim Ferriss?

  What's the tentative pub date plan? Any idea?

• 2:11:56Speaker 02

  The early, like start of 2027. So yeah.

• 2:12:00Tim Ferriss?

  It's exciting.

• 2:12:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is exciting. First book. So it's a fun new project.

• 2:12:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I'm gonna, for people who, I really encourage people to watch season six and seven. There's a Reddit thread titled, quote, can we agree that Jordan from season six is the best contestant to ever play the game? And it just goes on and on and on and on.

• 2:12:20Speaker 02

  He'll find some disagreement.

• 2:12:22Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, yes, I mean, it's Reddit. It's Reddit. So of course, there's plenty of disagreement. But, but you mentioned hardship and earlier this morning we were chatting because I was, I was in Tennessee and was with a very, very skilled podcaster and kind human, Sean Ryan.

• 2:12:44Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:12:45Tim Ferriss?

  And found this folded up piece of paper in the chair I was sitting in and it ended up being a copy of the Serenity Prayer.

• 2:12:52Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 2:12:53Tim Ferriss?

  And I have long been a fan of the Serenity Prayer, in part because it has echoes of and reinforces a lot of my reading and Stoicism. What I didn't realize is that what I thought was the Serenity Prayer is actually just a small piece of it. Are you able to pull it up on your phone by chance?

• 2:13:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's a great, it's a great prayer. I'll read the full thing here. It says, "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." Then it goes on, "Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardships as the pathway to peace, taking as he did this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it, trusting that he will make all things right if I surrender to his will, so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with him in the next." Has a lot of interesting concepts. There's, you know, the everyone, not everyone, but most people are familiar with the start.

• 2:13:54Tim Ferriss?

  The very beginning.

• 2:13:55Speaker 02

  The next one is like living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time. There was that lesson I got slapped with on alone, whereas I'm worried about the future and worried that ended up not coming. And then accepting hardship as the pathway to peace, as we were discussing this morning, you know, it's a quite a profound bit of wisdom in that.

• 2:14:14Tim Ferriss?

  There's a lot in there.

• 2:14:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:16Tim Ferriss?

  Right. It's just, it's wild. I mean, some of my favorite maybe concepts, maxims from Buddhist philosophy, from Stoicism, it is so neatly wrapped into the Serenity. Stoicism, it's so beautifully put and it just kind of blew my mind that I had such a partial understanding of it.

• 2:14:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:42Tim Ferriss?

  Because I only knew, I think, like most people, the very beginning and not the rest. Jordan, is there, people can find you at jordanjonas.com, J O N A S. They can find you on Instagram and YouTube at Hobo Jordan. Makes me laugh every time I say it. Is there anything else you'd like to say? Anything you'd like to add? Ask of my audience?

• 2:15:04Speaker 02

  We've all been noticing lately that the political division is ramping up more and more. I've been thinking a lot about the idea that so many people I know and love over the years have vastly diverging political opinions. But when you filter each other through politics, you're really likely to see people as avatars of an ideology rather than as fellow humans. And I see that right now with, it seems like with immigration's the hot topic at the moment. Of course, I believe we should keep track of immigration and who comes in and people who take advantage of the system shouldn't because there's a social contract and a trust that has to be shared and maintained in a society. But at

• 2:15:47Speaker 02

  the same time, I have a personal belief based on my faith that I should help those in need when I have the ability. So in my personal life, I've chosen to take on, for example, in my case, a couple who was, who were Russian asylum seekers, didn't want to go to the front in Ukraine, so they fled. But I don't expect others to be forced via the government and taxation to live out my morality. And I don't judge or think ill of those who don't, because I know there is a genuine sacrifice there. So I don't use politics to vicariously fulfill my moral obligations that I feel good about myself

• 2:16:27Speaker 02

  without having to make the personal sacrifices that a personally lived out ethic in the world requires. If I have the government fulfill my morality, it costs me nothing. And I can even find myself in a situation where I'm judging people who might actually practically be doing more to bear the actual burden of what I think is right in the world. So I think if more people approach their morality at a personal level actively, but also taken responsibly for it in their lives, the reality has a way of tempering the extremes. And it cuts in every direction.

• 2:17:09Speaker 02

  If someone on the right has a really strong opinion about abortion, it's like the faster children adopt, support single moms. If someone on the left has a really strong opinion about wanting an open border, well, take in an immigrant family, support them, you know, using your own means and social connections. Get to know the complexity that comes when you do all that and you'll find your, you'll actually understand people that don't, because it is a sacrifice. And you'll be less judgmental and probably less self-righteous. So it's something I've been thinking about a little bit lately. Working that out is my favorite part of my spiritual path of Christianity.

• 2:17:51Speaker 02

  It's like, I don't have a law, like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do usually. I'm supposed to filter like the real world through this ideal of love. Your neighbor as yourself, love the Lord your God. And in doing so, I'm constantly like, What does it mean to love your enemy? Like, that's not realistic. Like, what's it mean to give to everybody of that? So that's not realistic, but it makes me wrestle with this thing. And in that, I actually have that it all comes to life. Whereas I could have chosen to throw it out at some point and throw all that wrestling out with it, but I would have lost a lot of what provides meaning and value in my life also. And yeah, so I don't know, working that out in your life is super valuable.

• 2:18:34Tim Ferriss?

  It strikes me, I mean, this framing of wrestling with God.

• 2:18:38Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 2:18:40Tim Ferriss?

  And look, I know I'm getting over my skis here a bit, but it's the people who wrestle with X who foster a type of introspection that I think often leads to decisions that are better aligned with their truest of true values.

• 2:18:56Speaker 02

  Right, right, right. Yeah, it gets a little dangerous when you know for sure.

• 2:19:02Speaker 02

  And so it's a race that struggle, I guess.

• 2:19:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, man, I don't know attribution, but it's like, admire the seeker of the truth, beware the person who has found the truth.

• 2:19:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:13Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, there are times when it's like to have solid values or principles that you choose to live your life by, but at the same time to wrestle.

• 2:19:22Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 2:19:23Tim Ferriss?

  And to ask questions, you know, under what circumstances would this not be right? And to cross examine, it's asking a lot of people, I recognize, asking a lot of anyone.

• 2:19:34Speaker 02

  Right, because it's easy to just have a formula to follow. Yeah. Like, the the highest path is to like, work it out.

• 2:19:44Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I admire how you have tried to work it out. I think it's a very thoughtful approach. It's not an easy approach.

• 2:19:52Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:19:53Tim Ferriss?

  And I just love what you do in the world, man. I feel like you're reintroducing people to a lot of.

• 2:20:03Tim Ferriss?

  Core evolved sensitivities that make humans human. And when you do that, the abstractions and the concepts that people are willing to go to blows over on social media just fall away as what they are, which is typically some type of artificial line in the sand that people have chosen and been encouraged to take on as some type of team identity. And that just falls away when you simplify things and put people in an environment where they can see that. I think it's really beautiful and people don't have to live in Montana to do that.

• 2:20:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:20:45Tim Ferriss?

  There are ways to seek it out. So I appreciate you taking time on the show, man. It's great to see you.

• 2:20:49Speaker 02

  Thanks, Tim. It's been fun getting to know you and hanging out with you in the woods and here and really enjoyed it.

• 2:20:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I'm excited, man. I can't wait to pack in my own axe now, next time and make absolutely sure I don't stick it into my foot. So instead of be continued, thanks, Jordan.

• 2:21:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:21:08Tim Ferriss?

  And for people listening, we'll link to all sorts of things in the show notes at tim.blog/podcast. Just search Jordan and there may be one other Jordan and you can certainly search Jonas. There's not going to be another Jonas. He'll pop right up. Until next time, as always, just be a bit kinder than is necessary to others, yes, but also to yourself. To quote Jack Kornfield, if your compassion does not include yourself, then your compassion is incomplete. Thanks for tuning in. Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend?

• 2:21:53Tim Ferriss?

  Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you

• 2:22:36Tim Ferriss?

  head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. Back in the day, this was 2004 maybe, I had someone approach me in a coffee shop and say, "G'day, mate." And introduce himself. Who was that? It turned out to be founder of AG1, believe it or not, way back in the day. And people often ask me, what has survived after 20-plus years of testing every supplement under the sun just about? What actually has stayed in the rotation, in the toolbox? This episode's sponsor, AG1, is at the top of that very, very short list.

• 2:23:19Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:25:07Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:25:52Tim Ferriss?

  There are no material conflicts other than this paid testimonial. And of course, all investing involves risk, including loss of principal. So, do your due diligence.