631: Bert Bean & Sam Kaufman - Obsession, Grit, Growth-Mindset, Winning in a Tough Market, Hiring for Potential, Running Ultra-Marathons, and Caring For Your People

The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk Go to www. LearningLeader.com https://www. LearningLeader.com for full show notes This is brought to you by Insight Global http://www.insightglobal.com/learningleader. If you need to hire 1 person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through Talent or Technical Services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. www. InsightGlobal.com/LearningLeader https://www. InsightGlobal.com/LearningLeader Bert Bean is the CEO of Insight Global. Insight Global is a 4.3-billion-dollar, industry-leading talent and technical services firm based in Atlanta, GA. Bert started with Insight Global in 2005 as a Recruiter and has since worked his way up within the company, exemplifying Insight Global's "promote from within" culture. Sam Kaufman is the Chief Revenue Officer of Insight Global. Sam began his career as an entry-level recruiter in 2004, and he has earned many promotions throughout his career. I initially started working with Sam as his executive coach in March 2020, and then mid-2021, we formalized a bigger partnership with Insight Global, becoming the presenting sponsor of The Learning Leader Show, and we broadened my role working with leaders throughout the company. It's been so much fun. Notes Insight Global is a $4.3B business. Insight Global grew 9.2% last year, while the industry declined 9%. How is Insight Global winning while all other staffing firms are losing? A lot of companies will succumb to the idea that it's just gonna be a bad year, but our people are like, no, we'll just figure it out. We'll pivot. We'll move industries. We'll change accounts, we'll change our focus. We'll sell different services. And that's really what we've done. "Many in our industry are losing hope. That's not us. This is where we thrive." "Our people's ability to show up, keep going, um, do new things, evolve, is really, I think it's second to none. And that's been a huge part of our story." The whole world is soft. We love leaders like Laura Downey. She's so driven, so hardcore. A beast. She's in Canada. She just reaches right out to me like we're old friends. If I could get a bunch of Laura Downey's, it's game over. Obsession: A through-point for the entire conversation was obsession. Being obsessed with caring for people. Being obsessed with doing hard things like running 20 miles to work. Being obsessed with how prepared you are for a big meeting. Being obsessed with your standards. Holding yourself accountable to them and others. The leaders who sustain excellence over time are obsessed with their craft. Potential over experience - "If you want to build a culture of commitment and care, you have to choose potential over experience." Things to look for when promoting a leader: Hard decision making Strategic bets Simplifying complex problems "The most important skill as a CEO is getting to the truth. It's really hard because it's really scary. Normal humans find every excuse not to deal with harsh truths." ­-- Ben Horowitz The baseball on Bert's desk from the Atlanta Braves is an example of what not to do. The overall brand of Sam Kaufman = CARE Hiring in India - One of our folks that's doing the interviews asks this individual if, if they want a bottle of water, gives 'em a bottle of water, and this person says, wow, of all the places I've been to interview, nobody's offered me a single drink of water or treated me like a human being. Bert: I grew up in a small town in Alabama and was a very average kind of kid. But my mom was always like, you can do anything you want. Don't ever let somebody tell you you can't. You can be you, you can be the fastest runner in the world if you want. Sam: I get in here at 5:30 every day because I have a couple thousand people that started where I started, and I am obsessed with the idea that they should have the best career ever. Bert: I think a lot of people don't ever get a chance to suffer on their own terms. Yeah. You know, like to, to enter the pain cave on their own terms. And that's a really cool thing to, to step into that and to figure out, all right, do you have the stuff or do you not? You know? And I think all of us deep down are afraid to answer that question. I just gotta know if I can do it. I have to know that. I like that challenge. I put in the work, I put in the training. And then when you do it, you're like, I knew I had that in me, and it just is so reassuring to me. Bert: I love a sense of accomplishment. I love a sense of accomplishment. Uh, I love that I can do something hard. I've always, you know, I lived in Yellowstone National Park for a summer in college, so I fell in love with the American West and I loved seeing mountains and being like, why can't I just stand on that? Sam: The last couple years, I've spent a few hours kind of every morning working what I need to be talking about and what does my voice sound like? And through the course of a couple years of working on it now, I gotta run a call with a couple thousand people this afternoon, and it's like, oh, I'll just go do that next because I'm, I'm ready for that. Sam: I'm a person they can count on when they need them. And that's what sales really is. And that's what sales will teach you. And so for, you know, for my organization, if I want my people to see that, I want them to learn that. Bert's Tattoo – Be The Light

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Ryan Hawk?

  Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am your host, Ryan Hawke. Thank you so much for being here. Text HAWK to 66866 to become part of Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help you start your week off right. You'll also receive details about how our book, The Score That Matters, will help you become a more effective leader. Text HAWK to 66866. Now on to tonight's featured leaders. Bert Bean is the CEO of Insight Global.

• 0:42Ryan Hawk?

  Insight Global is a $4.3 billion industry-leading talent and technical services firm based in Atlanta, Georgia. Bert started with Insight Global in 2005 as a recruiter and has since worked this way up within the company, exemplifying Insight Global's promote-from-within culture. In addition to Burt, we have Sam Kaufman. Sam is the Chief Revenue Officer of Insight Global. Sam began his career also as an entry-level recruiter in 2004, and he has earned many promotions all the way up to CRO. I initially started working with Sam as his executive coach in March 2020. And then mid-2021, we formalized a much bigger partnership with the Learning Leader Show and Insight Global,

• 1:27Ryan Hawk?

  becoming the presenting sponsor of this podcast. And we've also broadened my role, working within the company with many of the leaders. It's been so much fun. During this conversation, which we recorded in person in Burt's office in Atlanta, some of the topics we cover: How Insight Global grew 9% in 2024 while the staffing industry declined 9%. So essentially, how is Insight Global winning while all of its competitors are losing? And we talked a lot about obsession and the importance of caring deeply about your people and your work.

• 2:07Ryan Hawk?

  Then we went into culture, growth, expanding the business worldwide, lowering attrition rates, and the key attributes they look for when promoting a leader. We covered that and so much more. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Bert Bean and Sam Kaufman.

• 2:30Ryan Hawk?

  All right, Bert, I thought the obvious place to start is the fact that Sam is a pickleball player.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:38Ryan Hawk?

  Could you ever have believed that?

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Ah, I could have, yeah.

• 2:41Ryan Hawk?

  I could not.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, well...

• 2:43Ryan Hawk?

  Just a couple of years ago, I was asking him about it, and he started making fun of me, and I'm not even a pickleball player, and all of a sudden, now he's like obsessed.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  Well, that's the problem. You say something stupid, you're automatically gonna end up doing it. That's how it goes.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  And Sam is, I don't want to say, I don't, I'm not trying to be ugly, but he is like sneaky athletic. He's like very...

• 3:03Speaker 03

  Why sneaky? You would not look at me and expect it, but I come out of nowhere.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  He's a college athlete, soccer player.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  So 20 years ago, you'd look at me and be like, "Oh, maybe." But now, you look at me and be like, "Probably not."

• 3:13Speaker 02

  He's a great tennis player.

• 3:14Ryan Hawk?

  We were, we were at a campus, we played tennis, and he was the best player there.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:20Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah, I wanted to beat him, and struggled.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  We had a, we had a, an awards trip. It was an amazing trip that we call Titan. It's for 50 people who most embody our five shared values as a company. Anybody can win it, you gotta be nominated by your peers, and we send you to Hawaii. And that trip was last weekend. Sam and I were there, and Sam had a pickleball turni... How do you say the word tournament again?

• 3:38Speaker 03

  It's a tournament.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  Tournament. He doesn't say it that way. He says it some other way.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  No, it's, you say tournament. And I would argue, T-O-U-R is said...

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Tournament. Yeah, so anyway, he has this pickleball tournament, and he's so excited, he wins, and he beats guy... We won't say any names, but he does beat certain men in front of their families, and...

• 4:01Speaker 03

  I felt bad about that.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  He didn't. Of course not.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  I did, I did feel bad about that.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  There was like a son there that was like, "Come on, Dad, you got it." And Sam beat him in front of his son.

• 4:12Speaker 03

  He took his shirt off. I mean, that's signals we're competing.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  Well, that is true.

• 4:17Ryan Hawk?

  In all seriousness, though, I am very curious about how Insight Global is winning while it seems like everybody else in the industry is losing. I'm gonna make sure these numbers are right.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 4:32Ryan Hawk?

  So Insight Global grows, $4.3 billion company, grows 8.7% last year while the industry declined. Nine percent. I was going over my notes.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  We're nine point two percent.

• 4:43Ryan Hawk?

  Okay, okay, sorry. Nine point two percent.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  They're really mad at us.

• 4:49Ryan Hawk?

  But seriously, I was going through my notes with my wife and she's like, wait a second, how in the world did that happen? I said, great question. So how did that happen? Let's hear from, I'd love to hear from both.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Let's hear from our chief revenue officer.

• 4:58Ryan Hawk?

  Here we go.

• 4:59Speaker 03

  Well, I would say our people are incredible and I would say a lot of companies in the face of adversity, if their strategy is, or if their market is not right, I think it's just a lot of companies will succumb to the idea that like, well, I guess it's just going to be a bad year. But our people are like, no, we'll just figure it out. We'll pivot, we'll move industries, we'll change accounts, we'll change our focus, we'll sell different services. And that's really what we've done. We've evolved our entire business and the offering that we have for our clients. We went international. We, we offered new services to our clients than we've ever had built or sold before. And our people have been effective doing it. So I would just say, our people's ability, you know, we always celebrate grit as one of, you know, the things that we value most inside the company. Our people's ability

• 5:42Speaker 03

  to show up, keep going, do new things, evolve is really, I think it's second to none. And that's been a huge part of our story.

• 5:49Ryan Hawk?

  What do you think?

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. What else is just, you know, from a mindset standpoint, from the, from the C levels down to our newest recruiters, failure is not an option at this company. It just isn't. We definitely believe that we are here to win and we're here to dominate. And look, yeah, the industry did go backwards roughly eight to 10% or so, the, our market did. But our total addressable market is still two, 300 billion and we're measly 4.3 billion of that. So even if the market declines 10%, you've still got a lot more billions to go after. And that, that's our, that's our mindset. We're like, well, there's still other people out there doing business. So why don't that just be us?

• 6:28Speaker 03

  Really? When, when he talks about the market like that, it takes away a lot of my excuses around why we can't grow.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  There's so much out there to get, dude. Just go get it.

• 6:35Speaker 03

  We're doing all right. He's like, nah, you're not. Got it, got it. Keep going.

• 6:39Ryan Hawk?

  One of the areas of expansion, though, you talked about going international and I love the story about India. And the turnover, though, for companies who decide to hire over there apparently is 27% for people from American companies who hire over there. Yet Insight Global's turnover in India, if I believe, is 4%. Again, how are you doing this?

• 6:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would say, you know, the number one thing that we thought about when considering expanding was how will we bring our values and our culture somewhere else? Because that is, it's a little hard to say, well, this is working here in, you know, North America. Is that, is that going to resonate with people? But I think like a good learning that we've had is like when you just show up and care for people first, like, I think that resonates everywhere. And so, you know, we're not building an offshore facility for our customers to be low cost. We're building it to really provide our services. And there's an incredible amount of technical capable people that like in India, I mean, the training there is exceptional in terms of technical development. So we were like, we have to go there to get the

• 7:44Speaker 03

  global talent that all of our customers need and to take great care of these people. And I think that that philosophy is one that we're trying to bring to as many of our customers as possible, because it just, it really is, you can still show up and take care of people no matter where they are. And it'd still be something where there's savings there because just domestically, that the economy is different.

• 8:06Ryan Hawk?

  Tell the bottle of water story.

• 8:08Speaker 03

  You tell it.

• 8:08Ryan Hawk?

  No, no, no.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  Go on, go on. You love it. You love it. Well, okay, so, so, I'm fine. Well, I mean, insist.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  I mean, I do think it is indicative, it's a small little example, but it's indicative of us trying to show up with who we are, with our values. And that is, this is, so we're over there doing, interviewing all these new hires that are going to work in our center in Hyderabad. And so we got all these candidates coming in and they've been interviewing with us and kind of everywhere. And during the day, One of our folks that's doing the interviews asks this individual if they want a bottle of water, gives them a bottle of water. And this person says, wow, of all the places I've been to interview, nobody's offered me a single drink of water or treated me like a human being. And I just, yeah, really thirsty and I really appreciate that. So, thank you. I'm not, I'm not used to companies treating us that way here. And that is something that we've noticed is that a lot of companies will go to India,

• 8:59Speaker 02

  they'll pay people below the poverty line. I mean, it's just a, they're, they're, they're doing it for reasons, just to try to provide a low cost option. And while, yes, there are some economics that work in your favor in India, you still should treat people with respect and kindness in who you want to show up as a company. And to, to your point, Sam, that, that wins all across the world.

• 9:19Ryan Hawk?

  It seems like that should be obvious, but it's not. And I know from having an outside perspective, that's part of my role, I know with, with working with the team is being out there and taking a look and seeing what's going on. And I think that's one of the coolest things about Insight Global is the fact that everybody really buys into the shared values and truly lives them out without having to be necessarily told to provide a bottle of water. That's just how the people are. Another commonality that I've found among so many people in Insight Global that I love, and why I love being a part of it, is this idea of obsession. And you've written about this, Bert. I love reading things that you choose to publish every week, but you talk about Ashley Pike, or Hannah Jenkins, and Kobe Bryant, all in the same sentence. Can you tell me about this obsession

• 10:02Ryan Hawk?

  with obsession and going out there striving to be excellent, be great at everything you choose to do?

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, you know, it's funny, my, my mom, I grew up in a small town in Alabama, and, you know, very B average kind of, kind of kid. But my mom was always like, you can do anything you want. You can do anything you want. Don't ever let somebody tell you you can't. You can be the fastest runner in the world if you want, you just have to train and try. And you're like, okay, mom, you know, fine, whatever. But then you, you have a few early ones in your career that come from hard work, that come from work ethic. And it could be anything. It could be you're a new salesperson and you set some big meetings that you didn't think that you could do. It could be any, literally anything. And you all of a sudden get hit with this thing where it's like, I made that happen and I did that from my hard work and from my diligence. And then you're like, well, I'm just gonna pour

• 10:55Speaker 02

  into that even more. And you start to realize the rest of the world doesn't want to operate that way. Speaking maybe to why we've grown when the rest of our industry hasn't. So many companies would rather just batten down the hatches and be like, okay, guys, we're gonna be in a little bit of a downturn. No big deal. Let's do some layoffs. Let's do some cost cutting. Nobody expects anything from us. And let's just do that. They don't have the will or the fight to be obsessed about the things that they do. And you can do that. You can actually show up and say, no, I'm just gonna care a little bit more. I'm gonna wake up a little bit earlier. I'm gonna stay a little bit later. If that's what it takes to be great. And I think to be great nowadays is maybe not as hard as it should be because so many people aren't willing to do the work to be obsessed.

• 11:36Ryan Hawk?

  Did you see Timothy Chalamet's speech when he won that, I think a SAG?

• 11:39Speaker 02

  I read about it. No, but I read about it. Where he sort of embraced, he just talked about Bob Dylan's, he was like, yeah, this is what four years of my life looks like.

• 11:48Ryan Hawk?

  Yes, exactly.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 11:50Ryan Hawk?

  I thought, honestly, I thought of you guys. And I loved it so much because he's just willing to say like, no, I did. I went for it. I want to be one of the greats is what he said. And then this award, this award isn't like, it's not what it's for, but it's just a little bit of fuel, little bit of fuel. Like, it's not everything. And I feel like, that's kind of like how you live too, Sam. This like obsessed guy, whether it's tennis, pickleball, or leading a sales organization, or leading a company, this idea of obsession feels like it's a part of your ethos.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  Well, I just, I believe, like, I get in 5:00, 5:30 every day because I have a couple thousand people that started where I started. And I am obsessed with the idea that they should have the best career ever. That they should not make the mistakes that I had to make. That they should not wait as long to be successful. That they can have that same opportunity that I had. And I would be letting them down if I didn't give them everything I had. And I want people around me that are exactly like that. It's a special organization. When you are committed to people and they are committed to you, and that reciprocity is there. And that's the organization that we're trying to build. And I just, I don't want to show up and do something.

• 12:56Speaker 03

  Like half-hearted, you know, if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna go all in. So yeah, I'm a pickleballer now. So just deal with it.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 13:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  You gave us.

• 13:04Speaker 03

  Working on my slice.

• 13:04Ryan Hawk?

  You gave a speech in Chicago, though, recently, which was killer. It's similar like what Bert's mom said, like you could do anything. You told stories about some of your early struggles and failures and how you had to fight through all that. And I felt your care. I felt your obsession. I felt the juice from that speech of like, God, I really want this for these people. What went into that talk? What were you thinking as you were giving it?

• 13:27Speaker 03

  Twenty-five-year-old Sam that had none of that, that I just wish a twenty-five-year-old other person could have that. You know, have that a year earlier than I did, you know? Like, it's just, it's unbelievable to have twenty years of career experience behind you and to realize how simple it is, but how hard it can be if you just don't focus on your own improvement.

• 13:49Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 03

  If you just worry about how other people are gonna judge you, if you just don't live with a growth mindset. People that have a negative mindset, people that are thinking about or worrying about people's judgments over your own improvement, that's the whole game. And if you just change those two things in your twenties, your whole life could be changed for the better. You could probably do a lot of things you maybe thought you couldn't do. Then I just, I like worry about that for my kids. And so I like worry about that for our new hires. I want them to start and know that they could do anything.

• 14:17Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah. Speaking of doing crazy things, Bert, did you run to work this morning?

• 14:24Ryan Hawk?

  Is that true?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  He talked.

• 14:26Speaker 03

  I might have, I might have saw you pop in with a weighted vest. I'm like, not only did you run.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  It was a hydration.

• 14:32Ryan Hawk?

  How far is it?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  The most direct route from my house is like fif- fifteen miles, but I had to get a few extra miles outside actually to go past the office.

• 14:41Ryan Hawk?

  I saw, I saw Robbie.

• 14:44Ryan Hawk?

  Did you run a marathon this morning?

• 14:45Speaker 02

  I ran, I ran about eighteen and a half miles.

• 14:48Ryan Hawk?

  What is you with your obsession with running and running long distances in these a hundred mile races?

• 14:52Speaker 03

  Let's get to the bottom of it.

• 14:53Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah, seriously.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  I think I'm still trying to figure that out myself, but you know, I, I love a sense of accomplishment. I love a sense of accomplishment. I love that I can do something hard. I've always, you know, I lived in Yellowstone National Park for a summer in college. So I fell in love with the American West. And I loved seeing mountains and being like, why can't I just stand on that? What is there? And I, I like knowing that, that I can do a hard thing and um. You know, fast forward. And so I've always liked running, you know, as my primary form of exercise, I would say. But going into 2023, I knew it was going to be a hard year in the industry. It was going to be a hard year for us. It was going to be a year that we were going to be just fighting to stay flat. And I like the idea that if you run a marathon, they give you a medal. And why I may not get a ton of sense of accomplishments in a

• 15:39Speaker 02

  year at work that maybe you're flattened, but boy, if I get a medal for running a race, that's cool. And so I ran my first marathon then and was like, I really liked it. And so I kept running. It's sort of, I think all roads, if you like distance running, all roads eventually lead to the ultra distance. And I read this book called

• 15:58Speaker 03

  Because he couldn't stop at 26.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  I read this book called, I read this book called Born to Run, Christopher McDougal, great, great book. You should get him on the podcast. And he talks about this race called Leadville, which is in Colorado. And I read it. And I was like, Oh, man, I'm gonna have to run that now. And because, you know, it's 100 miles, it's, it's all of it's above 10,000 feet of elevation. The total vertical gain is over 15,000 feet. And that sounds crazy scary hard. And so I just want to know, like, can I do that? And I love the training aspect that you have to do for something like that, and the obsession and the discipline that you have to be, to be ready to even try to do something like that. But the payoff is like, man, that the like, the last 30 miles where you're like, I'm gonna really

• 16:42Speaker 02

  do this. After all the suffering, after all the, you know, hallucinations, wherever you're like, I'm about to finish this. I mean, I can't describe you how just amazing and majestic that feeling is, especially if you've got like

• 16:54Speaker 03

  Only 30 miles to go. Only one more marathon to go. You're talking, you're talking about being the end.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  It's really, I mean, crossing the finish line with Jeremy Crook, who's one of my good friends who paced me the last 13 miles was like, I mean, we just have a bond that is like unbreakable now because of what you, what you sort of do together. And so, yeah, I, I like that.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  There's also a level of achievement there.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, the level of achievement, the sense of accomplishment. I'm after that stuff.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  That really is what it is, right? The harder you would have to put in, I mean, I've never done this and will never do this, but I imagine.

• 17:24Ryan Hawk?

  But it's not only.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  The level of effort.

• 17:26Ryan Hawk?

  And it's not only the finishing, I would imagine, it's the person you become in the process of training and doing the thing.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't ever get a chance to suffer on their own terms.

• 17:36Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  You know, to enter the pain cave on their own terms. And that's a really cool thing to step into that and to figure out, all right, do you have the stuff or do you not? You know, and I think all of us deep down are afraid to answer that question because you don't know. And you're like, well, I hope I do. But when the wolf is at the door, do you really have it? And I'd love that I can get into that space and be like, yeah, I got it. I definitely have it. And I feel bad for people that don't ever get to experience that in life.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  I got, I got to see Bert the day he got back from his trip. And I was like, you gonna, you gonna do another one? He goes, absolutely not. That's a one and done type of thing. And then two, two days later in a group meeting, he goes, I think, I think, I think I'm gonna do it again. And I was like, all you needed was just the legs to recover and now you're ready again.

• 18:22Ryan Hawk?

  This idea of voluntary hardship, I found to be a commonality among excellent leaders because you're willing to go sign up to do hard things. Which then makes the other really hard things you guys have to do in your life, like decisions you have to make, the board meetings, the hiring, firing, like trying to grow a business with these crazy goals. How is doing the other hard things preparing you to do the hard things at work? I'm curious.

• 18:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I do think there's a level of just ease or acceptance that comes with that level of work and preparation. You know, like different example, but for me, like speaking, I like solving problems. Being an outward speaker was not always my like natural resting state. And Bert was, you know, very quick to tell me that. And so he's like, you should work on that. And, and I appreciate him for that because that's what I should do. And so for the last couple of years, I've spent a few hours kind of every morning just working on what do I need to be talking about? And what is my, what does my voice sound like? And, you know, through the course of a couple of years of working on it, now I, you know, I get to run a call with a couple of thousand people this afternoon.

• 19:32Speaker 03

  And it's like, oh, I'll just go do that next because I'm ready for that. So, you know, there's a level of decision making, there's a level of preparation. There's just the reps that you get from doing some things that are harder.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  It's creating the fear, putting it in your way and forcing yourself to be able to get over it.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, maybe, maybe you did that a little bit for me. Maybe I did that a little bit myself, but either way I had to do it. And either way, I now can see that like, that's not something you need to be that worried about.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  It's no big deal. Yeah, it makes anything else. You're like, okay, well, if we, I can do that, then I can do anything else. Exactly.

• 20:04Ryan Hawk?

  One of the, one of the few certainties of life is that you will face adversity, you will face hard things. And again, I think that's why people who sustain excellence over time voluntarily sign up to do really hard things to better prepare themselves for those moments that inevitably will arise. You probably have multiple ones every single day. So when you're voluntarily signing up for hard things, you're better preparing yourself to deal with it when it arises. And these are things that you can't predict, you don't know. Is that part of your thinking of voluntarily choosing to do really, really hard things?

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's, it is a little bit that, maybe that's subconsciously more, for me, it always comes down to like, I want to know if I can do it.

• 20:43Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  It's scary to get on the starting line of a, of a half marathon or a marathon, if you've never run before, an ultra marathon. And so, but, but I sign up for it because I'm like, I just got to know if I can do it. I, I have to know that. And so I, I like that challenge. I think I can do it. I put in the work, I put in the training, I think I can. And then when you do it, you're like, I knew, I knew I had that in me. And it just is so reassuring to me. And then, yeah, I think it translates to knowing that you can do all these other hard things, for sure.

• 21:10Speaker 03

  Well, there is a level of like being surprised by adversity kind of sucks. Like when you're not, when you're not on your toes at preparing for it allows you to then when it comes at you, I think it's just easier. Right? Cause you like, you know what that moment is, you know what it feels like.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  There's actually not, yeah, there's nothing better. I, I remember when it was like going into 2020. Uh, you know, COVID was happening, so take a side, we knew we were gonna have a recession. So going into that recession moment and then even going into this, whatever you call this recession type feel that we've had in the economy since like the end of 2022. But going into that, going into that knowing like, wow, this is nothing. We have this, we have a plan, we know what we're gonna do. Like, we got this, we have survived worse, bring it on, we can live here all day if that's what it takes. We are ready, we're set, fine.

• 22:05Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah. How about the choice?

• 22:06Speaker 03

  Twenty twenty for a lot of leaders was such a perfect example of that.

• 22:11Ryan Hawk?

  Yes.

• 22:11Speaker 03

  You know, cuz it came out of nowhere, it was so abrupt, it was so jarring. And so I think a lot of leaders that had to face 2020, I could speak for the leaders in my organization, in this company, I see the strength of all of them before 2020 and after 2020 is unparalleled. Like, there's so much more poised and more confident and have such strength behind them because of really the last few years and how, how much growth there was in such a short period of time.

• 22:38Ryan Hawk?

  The, the easier choice to make would have been just to lay people off, right? Was that ever a thought? Was that ever a thought? Let's just do what everybody else is doing and lay people off. It felt like from, from my perspective, it wasn't, I'm sure there were conversations, but that, that didn't happen, right? That would have been the easier choice that most people did, but here, that didn't seem like it was an option.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Hey, what we, we, I mean, look, when you're staring down the barrel of a pandemic, I think everything's on the table and you start sorting through like, well, that doesn't align with our values and that one does and oh boy, that one doesn't. And back to the values, I do think if you are, I mean, our values are real and that's why I think, that's why I think a lot of people stick with us is they're like, well, it does feel real here. And, you know, you sort of live for moments that sort of test your values, like, okay, do we really have what it takes? Just like doing that really hard thing, all right, this is our marathon. Do we have the stuff? Are the values real? Are they gonna, are they gonna carry you through? So when we got to the layoff question, we said, yeah, we just can't do it. We just can't, like, it just can't.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  And fortunate that we've got great financial sponsors, Harvest Partners and Leonard Green that were like, yeah, got it, understood, that's, that's how you guys wanna roll, great, you know, fine. They didn't say that exactly.

• 23:52Ryan Hawk?

  I was gonna say, from what I hear, that's not how those calls go.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they're very supportive, very supportive. And but but what's nice, though, is that when you have a company like ours and great people like ours, they make those questions really easy because there's no there's no quit in our people. I mean, they are all fight. And so they were like, let us bring the fight to this recession like we got you. And so actually, we grew 8% in revenue that year, which like, you know, you totally don't even have to have the layoff discussion. If we're able to go out and find growth and find demand in a time where there seemingly is none. And so, yeah, it's it's easy to bet on our people and we bet on them again and again and again.

• 24:31Ryan Hawk?

  It's such a cool part of the story and it's inspiring because you know, like, hey, we faced like literally, hopefully a once in a generation thing, and we didn't go there. We didn't do that. So like.

• 24:39Speaker 03

  Oh, well, honestly, to to Bert's credit, the flip side, he did the opposite. He was like, how about we lock those salespeople in who lost their commissions and pay them a little bit more? Because when things come back, they're going to know that that's who we are. And like, we did that, you know, you did that. That was a huge decision that you made. And for people that were in our business, you know, 2020 and before that saw that, you know, a lot of people wouldn't know that because that happened after they joined, right? You know, we've hired a lot of people in the last four years. But for the people that were there for that, I think there's a lot of reasons to just know who the people are and the values are that we want to run this company by.

• 25:17Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah. Bert, you've said to me before that the whole world is getting soft. When you mentioned somebody who's.

• 25:22Speaker 03

  We're not all running to work.

• 25:23Ryan Hawk?

  Who is, well, you mentioned somebody, though, who I think she's in Canada, who is not soft. Wait, is Laura Downey, is that where she is?

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Laura Downey is not soft.

• 25:30Ryan Hawk?

  She and so like, I just like this idea of being a beast, of being the opposite of soft when the whole world's going that way. Can you can you share more about that?

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, I mean, yeah, you what I love, where you know, like, you have hope in humanity is you meet people. Because I think every generation is so, it's so calm. Every generation is like the one after them is soft. They're terrible.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  I know, I hate that. When people say that.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Every generation is me off so much. Every, like, the generation before you said that about you, you know, whatever.

• 25:59Speaker 03

  But also, do you not see people doing wild things out there? Like, these kids exist, you just don't have them.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  But but it's nice when it's when it hits you in the face. And so we hire people right out of college. And so we have, you know, generation, tons of Gen Z here, I think almost Gen Alpha now. But yeah, Laura. Laura Downey, I am a CEO. Laura Downey is, she's been here, she has been here about six years or so, maybe now, maybe eight years now, but she's up in Canada. And I mean, she is so hardcore. She's so driven. She's that type of just, you just want this person in your, in your organization. And yeah, she, she called me last week and she was like, how do I, how do I get people to like, you know, she's frustrated. Now, how do I get people to retain the knowledge that they need to know so they can sound better

• 26:45Speaker 02

  in front of customers? How do I get them to be obsessed about the work as I am? And it was funny. I was like, oh, Laura. Yeah. So you're just, you have the curse of the high achiever. So let's, I'm sorry, but like, not everybody runs it at your speed. Don't, you know, that's, so just let me level set some expectations. You don't change. Keep doing you. But you know, here's how we can kind of talk through that. And, and I think you can actually still bring a lot of people along and help them out. I mean, it does start with you got to paint the vision and what does the opportunity look like? Okay. So if I can understand what that is, okay, that's interesting. I'll sign up for that. Okay. Now we got to set expectations. Okay. This is what I need from you. This is what, this is what I expect from you. This is what you can expect from me. Let's make that contract together. Now I'm going to teach you how to hit those goals, how to meet those expectations.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  And now I'm going to follow up like crazy. And I may even have to follow up and make really tough decisions, but I'm prepared to do that. And I think that, you know, if you can, if you can teach, you know, those, those just amazing alpha high achievers, how to sort of lead in that way, then yeah, you can create a lot more people around you in that same way.

• 27:46Ryan Hawk?

  That multiplying effect. Sam, I noticed in your office, you have a quote of the man in the arena. What does that quote mean to you?

• 27:52Speaker 03

  It kind of goes, yeah, it really is fantastic. It just goes back, I mean, marred with blood and sweat. I mean, I just love it so much. But it, it comes down to the, what I said actually at the beginning, I'm not here for your judgments. And if you have them, you can go, you know, you can go.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  To that other place.

• 28:11Speaker 03

  You to that place though. I won't say it, but you can go there. Because my world is not for you. That is like, and I don't, I don't care. Like what I care about is the work I'm doing and, and if I'm giving it my all and if I am, then that's it. And that's that whole speech, you know, distilled down into a, a simple comment, which is, you know, that's the man in the arena that is to be respected. And everyone else that is the critic is kind of not. And, and I live my life by that. I want my people to know that's all we should care about. And if we can do that, we're, and sales, by the way, is the most amazing teacher of this.

• 28:48Ryan Hawk?

  Completely.

• 28:48Speaker 03

  Because sales, people that don't have a sales career, don't understand what it's like to call people that don't know you.

• 28:54Ryan Hawk?

  They don't want to talk to you.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  Or don't want to talk to you and put yourself out there for them every day on blast for a number of years and just do that on repeat. And the more you do that, the more you just realize this is just, I just need to do my job well.

• 29:08Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  And, and people will see that I am someone that will be a great partner to them. They will see that, that I really am here to do a great job. They will see that I'm a person they can count on when they need them. And that's what sales really is. And that's what sales will teach you. And so for my organization, if I want my people to see that, I want them to learn that because again, it's, it's the most empowering, freeing thing for your whole life. So.

• 29:31Ryan Hawk?

  Man, I love talking sales. My dad was a lifetime sales leader, wrote books on sales, led 1,500 people at one point in his career. So he's my idol. But one of the things you said about sales, Sam, you said this to me in like a letter, two or three years ago, sales is not about deception. It's about depth. It's working for others. It's being the light to the world around you. And I think that is a great transition, Bert, to what be the light means and why it's so important to you. Important enough to maybe even decide to put it on your body. What, what is be the light all about?

• 30:00Speaker 03

  Well, for me, it does come from a piece of scripture that I came across, Matthew 514, just before COVID, just before the, the big, you know, world fell apart.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  And I really liked it and I was, it would just wouldn't let me go, it was rattling around in my head. And I thought, boy, that's really interesting language. How do I use that? And, and I also was sort of, there was this, I'd read this Simon Sinek book called, called The Infant Game, which is a great book. I mean, it's, it is probably my favorite book of his. He only, I don't know why he doesn't write, he's only wrote like four books. But anyway, Infant Game is great. And in there, he talks about how these great companies have what's called a just cause. And a just cause is like this, like bigger purpose, this bigger thing that you're really striving for. And, you know, it's so annoying because I'll like read these books and I'll tell myself like, well, Simon Sinek's not, he's not CEO doing my job.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  But then I'm like, he's right, I think. And it's so annoying. How dare he say something smart. Yeah. And then we were actually at a, we were at a, our conference, our, our company-wide conference in January 2020. Right as I came across this piece of scripture I love so much, right as I read this book and I meet John, I, I meet Johnny Effelfell, I don't know if you've heard the story. And he actually, he comes up to me like in the bathroom and you just gotta know J U. He's like, hey dude, have you read Simon Sinek's new book Infant Game? I'm like, yeah. He goes, do you think we have a just cause? I'm like, Johnny, not, not, not right now. Like I gotta give a speech like, no. Okay. I don't, well, I don't know. It's like, I don't have it.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  This is like living rent free in my brain for like two months. And so whenever COVID happens, so much of the world was trying to, I felt a real sense of everybody was, was wanting to know, well, how can, what, what part can I play? How can I fight back against this? What can we do? And we're lucky that we're a staffing company and we actually have a wonderful opportunity to work incredibly hard to help other people find work. And a thing where you're about to see millions of people be laid off. And so the call I had with a company on March 12th, where we sent everybody home. I was outlining, okay, we're definitely gonna have a recession, but don't worry, this is what we're gonna do. This is how we're gonna combat it. I'm private equity owned, so I've, I've, I've gotta have this. I'm, every time we go through a sale process, everybody's like, what are you gonna do like in a recession? So you gotta have that answer cold. So I was like, we, we're gonna be fine. Here's what we're gonna do.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  But I knew, you know, aside from the tactical, people wanted this bigger thing to shoot for, this bigger thing to be all about. How can we fight against this? And this is where I, I found the perfect place to insert that, that language from that piece of scripture I read. And it was, I told everybody, look, we have a moment and an opportunity to work as hard as we can to help millions of people find jobs again and to be the light for them. And that really stuck and people really loved that and rallied around that. And it was like, it just taught me so much around, boy, if you can find the right sort of purpose to drive an organization, to get people to show up, they will show up in mass for you. They will do crazy things to try to like, reach for this and be part of this bigger purpose, this just cause, if you will.

• 33:03Ryan Hawk?

  And you tattooed it on your body.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. So then I tell, yeah. So, so I had a be the light, so every Wednesday.

• 33:08Ryan Hawk?

  Right over there.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Every Wednesday, yeah. Every Wednesday for the next like 63 weeks, I did our be the light call with the company where I, I shared, you know, how we were doing and the moves that we were making, the decisions that we're making. I shared a be the light story where it was talking about our people doing these incredible things for their people in terms of helping them find jobs, amazing stuff. And, uh, and it really stuck. And so I, I decided, I've been wanting to get a tattoo for years, but I've always been like too scared. And my friend Eli was like, hey, man, what, he sort of like incepted this in me. He, I felt like it was my idea, but it wasn't, it was his idea. He was like, what if we did this event where we raise like, see if we can raise a hundred thousand dollars for our be the light fund, which we had, which is, we have this like financial hardship fund that we kind of created in COVID

• 33:53Speaker 02

  as a way to help our, our 30,000 contractors, consultants or internal people, they find themselves in harm's way. The Inside Global Family Foundation can step in and make a grant to them. But that, we got a lot of people in the company, so we were worried about running out of money and that. And so I said, all right, if we can raise a hundred thousand dollars for that fund, I'll get be the light tattooed on my arm and I'll live stream it to the company. So I did it right there. Yeah. I would have done it for free. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, now I'm tatted up. You're all in.

• 34:18Speaker 03

  You haven't gotten a second one yet, though.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  I want to, but. What's that?

• 34:22Speaker 03

  I keep thinking you got it, but.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  There, I've got two I've thought about, and I'd like to get it on the quad because I'm in my running era, right? So it'd be kind of fun, but I like the idea.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  It's very California of you.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  It is. Well, I like people to not know, what is bird? Is he, where's he from? I don't know.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, you keep us guessing.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  I only know, yeah. So I like the idea for a term that I kind of have discovered from this running thing I'm in called suffer well. That would be really fun. Suffer well tattooed on my quad or an eastern bluebird. And that, yeah. What's that? Yeah, that one's just for me. I can't. Is that a private? It's sort of private. Okay.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  That's, that's amazing that those are the two you're considering.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Like, you might as well do both. What does suffer well mean? Well, I, I like the idea that, you know, again, it kind of back to this like thing in endurance sports. Like, again, most people don't ever, most people don't ever choose their own suffering or go into it on their own free will. And, and I do believe suffering builds endurance and endurance builds character and character builds hope. The apostle Paul said that, not me, but, but I, I think that's a, it's a powerful thing to, to get to sort of do that and experience that. And, and do it on your own terms and, and to see what you learn about yourself through that process. And so, you know, every time you do some of these long, for me, it's a, it's an ultra marathon, but for others, for other people, it could be just a hard job that you have.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  It could be being a single parent, you know, it could be, it could be anything.

• 35:53Speaker 03

  Financial problem.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Financial problems. It's, and, and so whatever it is you're suffering for, having to suffer with, how do you do that? But through that process, you know, learn a lot about yourself and learn what you're capable of. Yeah. Sam. So that's good, right? I think I should do that. Well, yeah, let's, were you gonna do it? Maybe, I don't know. Might as well.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  You don't have any, do you?

• 36:14Speaker 02

  I don't.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, you got no.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  No, I don't.

• 36:15Speaker 03

  That's surprising.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  That's a surprising why.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  You got all the muscles, you should throw it in there.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  If I had your shoulders, I say, I can't get anything else on my arms.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  I'd be tired of everything.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. I like the quad idea. I see basketball players, I'm like, yeah, looks kind of cool.

• 36:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, they had, that's where the new band is, I think. Where you feel like, you know, it used to be on the bicep, now it's like.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  I mean, my bicep is like that of a 12 year old boy. You run a marathon, work.

• 36:37Speaker 03

  Your quads.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  My quads.

• 36:41Ryan Hawk?

  Sam, I did a 360 for you, I don't know, three or four years ago.

• 36:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, I remember.

• 36:46Ryan Hawk?

  And did it was pretty good for the.

• 36:49Speaker 03

  That's great.

• 36:49Ryan Hawk?

  No, I actually is an awesome experience for me because I got to talk to so many people. I mean, I did it for everybody on the team. So I had, I did, I don't know, 50, 60 interviews over the course of six months or whatever. That's when I remember Bert and I got a lot closer doing your 360. We had a couple hour long conversation, but the word that came up the most, which I'm, I think you could probably guess. Of all of those people above, there's only one, but beside below was care. And I think that is such a cool word. If you had to embody one word for a person and have to think that made you feel really good.

• 37:28Speaker 03

  It does. My Timothy Chalamet.

• 37:29Ryan Hawk?

  What does, what does care mean to you?

• 37:33Speaker 03

  I mean, for, well, I'll say, I think I grew up, a little bit about me. I think I grew up sort of isolated. My parents were divorced. I played a lot of soccer. Soccer was like my outlet, but I wasn't like friends with people on the team. I was, I was the best player on the team, but, and they liked having me because I like helped us win all the games. But they weren't inviting me to hang out. I remember I went to one or two of the pasta parties and I was like, I don't belong here. And I just remember, I remember being a little bit socially awkward. I remember in, in college, I studied electrical engineering. It was not an easy subject to study. I studied, I, I buried myself in my work. I, like, I was social, but it was like not, I was a little awkward. And, and like starting in sales, like that was way outside of my comfort zone.

• 38:18Speaker 03

  I say all this to say, I guess I've always wanted people to know how much I care about like being a great teammate or doing great work and impacting the people around me. But I don't think like socially, I've always been really good at it. Like there's people around me that I'm like, oh my God, they're socially like just exceptional. They're just so naturally confident and connect. I mean, Greg Murray and Tommy Cadd and all these guys are around me that I'm like, they're so fun. They're so witty. They can do every accent in the world. They're so good looking. I'm like, all these things. I'm like, it's so annoying that you have everything.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  You got me with you. I don't, I could do this.

• 38:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, we just work for it. We just suffer well.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:56Speaker 03

  No, we just, that's what we do.

• 38:57Ryan Hawk?

  Good. That's pretty good.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  But why, I guess that really resonates for me is I've just always wanted people to know that I will do everything I can do for other people to be successful, but I don't know that I've always been the most communicative and that's my journey. But I've always wanted people to see that and know that in my work. And so when I hear that, I just really appreciate that feedback because it tells me that people notice that I'm working hard for others and they see that.

• 39:22Ryan Hawk?

  How do you bring that to life? What does that look like? Like a practical application of care? Like I care so much about my work, about my people, about my career, about my, about Jenna, about my kids, about everybody.

• 39:32Speaker 03

  For me, it's just an intense focus. If I'm at work, I am so intensely focused on the work. If I'm at home, I am so intensely focused on my kids. If I'm on a date with my wife, she's like, can you chill a little bit? But I would just say, if I'm doing it, it's gonna be, it's probably gonna be pretty intense. And I don't know, like at times people are like, yo chill. I'm like, yep, you're probably right. Chill a little bit. But I think I show it through, I think I show my care through intensity.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  As someone that watches Sam, it's everything. It's, it's all the little things. It's, it's sort of never taken a play off, right? It's, you're showing up. I mean, intense focus is great, but it's just, it's just always on. And that's not for everybody. That's not for everybody, but that is what obsession looks like. And, and you know, there's a reason why Sam helps me run this company and why he leads an organization of almost 2,000 people. And so that's, that's what that, that's what that means and that's what that looks like. But it's, it's a million things.

• 40:28Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah. Why do you have this picture of Nolan Ryan bloodied hanging up in your office, Bert?

• 40:33Speaker 03

  So, uh, yeah, that's one of my favorite pictures. Yeah. So I just think that just epitomizes.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  Grit at its core. I mean, that's the backstory of that picture of Bo Jackson, who's my favorite player of all time. He grew up in Alabama with a stutter. So did I. He went to Auburn. So did I. We were both great tailbacks for.

• 40:55Speaker 03

  The story ends.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  That's where it ends. Yeah. But yeah. But anyway, no, he, he was, he was at bat and he had just hit a comebacker to the line. It was like a two hopper and busted Nolan Ryan right in the face. And you can see he's bleeding down his lip, you know, just out the side of his lips on a shirt. And you watch, you go back and watch the YouTube of that and he gets hit in the face. He picks up the ball. He throws out Bo and he just gets back on the mound and keeps pitching. And, and they took that picture. And that is like, so cool. You are gonna get punched in the face. You are gonna, you are gonna be bloodied and you are gonna be bruised sometimes. And sorry, man, sometimes nobody cares. Sometimes you just gotta pick up the ball and get back up on the mound and keep going. And that is

• 41:40Speaker 02

  just so badass. I think, I mean, right?

• 41:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  I mean, that is just, that's it. And yeah, what? Like, let's go. I'm looking, he's so focused on the next picture. He's like, let's do this. And I just love that so much. And I, and I hope that I can, like, live my life as a CEO like that moment.

• 41:58Ryan Hawk?

  I think that is, that's such a great embodiment of you're gonna get punched in the face all the time, especially in these senior leadership jobs like you guys have multiple times a day. And nobody really cares. Nobody feels sorry for you ever.

• 42:12Speaker 03

  But you know what? Every leadership job, in fact, every contributor job, like, you know, just calling customers. I mean, I can say I probably got hit more in my entry level job than I do in my job today. Yeah, there's like bigger decisions we have to make, but I just think people in every, there's just no, nobody's doing a job that they're like, my job's just easy all the time. And it's just, it's just rainbows and sunshine. People need to know, like, the matter of factness of stuff's gonna be hard.

• 42:42Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  And you can handle it. If I could give my kids that, I'm like, they're gonna be fine.

• 42:46Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah. Bert, I read recently this quote from Ben Horowitz about the most important skill for a CEO. And I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this. Most important skill as a CEO is getting to the truth. It's really hard because it's really scary. Normal humans find every excuse not to deal with harsh truths. What do you think of that statement?

• 43:07Speaker 02

  I think it's a really important one. I don't know if it's the most important one. We could probably debate that, but it's definitely something I strive for constantly is getting to the real answer, getting to the truth. For a couple of reasons. One, you never want to be the emperor that has no clothes on. Uh, in there, two, there's like, there's so, there's so many, there's so many people and there's so many layers between a CEO and the front line. There's so many people. Trying to keep bad news from you.

• 43:31Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's, and it's not, they're, they're not wrong for doing it and it's nobody's fault, but everybody's just trying to kind of like take care of the issue and. Solve it and maybe brush it under the rug. And so you, you, you are really insulated as a CEO in that way.

• 43:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  And that's dangerous because a big part of your job, I think like 50% of your job as a CEO, in my opinion, for what that's worth, is to be a strong communicator. People need to know what's going on. How are we doing? You got to communicate to them. And if you're communicating a message that shows you're out of touch and you're not in touch with the truth, people are going to be like phony, don't care. You don't see me. This is BS. You don't, you don't know what's going on. And you are a fool and I don't ever want to be seen that way. I don't ever want to feel like I'm giving some inauthentic message just because I don't know the truth. And so, yeah, that, that can really erode support for you as a CEO in that way. So I, I travel to our offices.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Constantly. I probably get to two offices a month to spend time with, with our newest recruiters, our newest salespeople, our newest leaders. Just to see how they're doing, see what's going on and, and to get to the truth.

• 44:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you're, and Bert's also exceptionally good in every meeting at cutting right to the, I mean, he could, it's amazing how quickly he can be like, oh, I see what you're doing there and I'm going to jump right past that. Now we're going to talk about something else. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, now we're really talking.

• 44:50Ryan Hawk?

  This, this feels like an important skill. Let's pull the string a little bit. Or how are you good at getting to the truth quickly?

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Well, I think part of it is just play the movie forward. Like every leader needs to learn how to play the movie forward. And if you're trying to solve a problem or you're trying to come up with a new strategic direction, or you're trying to make some decision. Don't just, okay, we'll make this decision. That's it. No, play the whole movie forward. Play it all the way through. And I like to skip to the end in that way. Okay. Well, if we do this, it's going to cause this, which will cause this, which will cause this. So we really have to solve for is, or is this the outcome that we want? How do, what do we do if this happens? And I do think it helps if you have spent a lot of time, in my case, growing up in the organization, or spending enough time on the front lines to really know the truth and really know what's happening, so that you can just cut through all the BS. And that's,

• 45:39Speaker 02

  I think, a really tough problem in big companies now, is that there's so much gobbledygook being talked about in meetings and big words. Official term. Yeah, official term. And, and, "I went to this business school, and so I really know..." No, stop. Stop all the just posturing and just, "No, what are we really here to talk about? What are we really here to solve?" And I like doing that. It's not that I haze people, but I do sort of like to- In a good way. I do sort of like to call out the BS when I see it in the meeting, when people are just posturing, or they're talking about things that don't matter, to get right to, like, the heart of the matter. Just be direct and ask.

• 46:17Speaker 03

  But I would, I would also say Bert is exceptionally good at taking complex ideas and making them simple fast. That's something you do really well. Also, reading people, exceptionally good at that. Because a lot of people, they, it's not like, there is the, like, posturing and all, but there, there are certain, there's just people that are just really positive, and almost like, too optimistic. Where you're, you're sort of trying to get a real read on what's happening, and they're just telling you in a really positive way, like, "It's going really well." Like, but your nature is to tell me it's all going well. What's the opposite of that? And I think, like, he does really well at knowing always who he's talking to. And sometimes the paranoid people in the room, he has to talk past us for the optimistic people. And so I just think skills that you bring to

• 47:00Speaker 03

  every meeting we have are read of people, are, you know, the ability to distill things that. I mean, there's oftentimes where I'm like, "Oh, I thought we were talking about this thing," but he's actually making it clear to me we're talking about this thing. And that's taking a really complex concept and actually making it simple. Because once you do that, you realize, "Oh, it's not about this decision around the strategy. It's actually around are the people going to implement it?" And he's just really good at navigating that, which I think a lot of people don't.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  Well, it's coming from-

• 47:26Speaker 03

  It takes a lot of work.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  It comes from playing the movie forward. But also, you know who I, who I really learned that from was, was watching the private equity guys. We've had a bunch of different private equity owners. The private equity guys are the best in the world at taking complex ideas and cooking them down to the simplest form, because they have to look at thousands of companies a year.

• 47:42Speaker 03

  To invest a finite amount of dollars. If they get one of those investments wrong, it's bad. If they get like two of those investments wrong, they can like go out of business. So it's like a big deal. And so they are constantly getting to the simplest sort of, well, how does this company make money? How does that really work? And yeah, that's, that's certainly where I learned it. And I think they're masters at it.

• 48:02Ryan Hawk?

  One of the things I think new leaders struggle with, that you guys are both really good at, is when you're newer, especially if let's say you get promoted within the company. This is me early in my career. This is Insight Global. Everybody gets promoted from within for the most part. Sometimes it's hard to hold people accountable, right? They're your friends. You've hung out, you grew up together with them. Maybe you got promoted a little bit faster. I don't feel like you guys struggle with this, at least from what I sense, maybe you had it did at one point. But I'm curious, since a lot of your social lives are intertwined with your work lives. Like so many people here, your core friend groups work here for the most part. The people you run races with, right? Robbie and the others, they work here.

• 48:43Ryan Hawk?

  How are you good at both having these social relationships, friendships, but also holding people accountable to really stretch goals, tough, high demanding plays?

• 48:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, the, the person who holds me to the highest standard in my entire life is my wife. And so, yeah, you think it's Burt, but it is not Burt. He's a cupcake compared to Jennifer Kaufman. My wife expects me to be my best all the time. And we, we have the best relationship in the whole wide world. So that's one of my greatest teachers. And also it's like, if you want real relationships with real people, that, that, I love the show Severance right now because it's like, there's not an outer world and an inner world. And I, so much of corporate America, it's like, that's how it's treated. Here's who I am at work and here's who I am at home. I'm just who I am and the standard that I live my life by is going to be the same. And the relationships I want to have with people, I'm going to hold them accountable no matter what.

• 49:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, we can have fun together, but we can still, at the same time, hold each other to a really high standard and confront each other because that's actually how we'll have a real relationship. I just think that's foolish to think you would have a real relationship with someone if you're not going to be hard on them. But a lot of leaders take a long time to learn that.

• 49:56Ryan Hawk?

  I can give you two answers, maybe one nice, be the light CEO answer, then one spicy answer. So the one is everything Sam said, that the better.

• 50:05Speaker 03

  You're saying mine was the cupcake answer?

• 50:06Ryan Hawk?

  Well, no.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Kind of.

• 50:09Ryan Hawk?

  He's, he's, he's holding you to the standard as we speak.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Oh, that was cute.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  The, the, the, the better relationship you have with somebody, like real relationship, not just you go to happy hour with them. So the real relationship, I actually think it is easier to hold them accountable. It's easier to have the tough conversation because, because it's real and it's authentic and they know that you care about them. You care. The other answer is, what kind of question is that? Like, you want to be a leader and you can't hold somebody accountable? Like, what are you doing? What game do you think you're in? Like, this is the game of leadership. If you are being held to a standard to get a job done and you're counting on your team to do that and they're not delivering and you're too afraid to hold them accountable, you are in the wrong role, my friend. You are not a leader. Yeah. So I think about that.

• 50:53Speaker 03

  How many times do you think we fight a week? What ballpark number?

• 50:56Speaker 02

  A dozen, maybe, maybe six, maybe, maybe 10.

• 50:59Speaker 03

  Twice a day.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  Feels, feels right.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  Legitimately fight?

• 51:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  Twice a day?

• 51:03Speaker 03

  Sometimes in front of people, sometimes just by ourselves.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Most of the time it is in front of people.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  You guys feel like you're like brothers? Oh, it's in a weird way.

• 51:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  At times.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  We come from very different places, which makes it even more unique, I would say.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  I feel like though you can't fight healthily unless it's someone like, I feel like that's what I do with my brother. Relationship.

• 51:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:24Speaker 03

  There's still, there's still a level of.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  You fight with your wife, dude?

• 51:26Speaker 03

  There's still a level of this is my boss.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  You have disagreements. Like, I don't really fight with my wife a bunch. Ever? Well, I mean, I do. You don't fight, you have disagreements.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  You just lose.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  Let's just say this, I'm hypercritical sometimes with Sams, I know I can be with my wife.

• 51:41Speaker 02

  Your standards are low. You don't hold her to high. I don't know. You don't hold her to high standards.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  You're a smart man? No, I, I think, I think that, you know, you still have to be professional at work. Like, there's still, there's still an element, I want people to like me at work, but there's an element of if you're not getting the job done, I have to make hard decisions. And when I make those hard decisions, that's going to hurt our relationship. You can't take the humanity out of that.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:10Speaker 03

  You, so you, you do have to live with the idea that it's not going to be like, we're, we're just brothers. You know, like, there is an element of, I think in another world, we. Could be best friends, but we also work together. And so there's an element of, well, you gotta remember that all the time. And I think people who understand that are able to have the best relationships at work.

• 52:28Ryan Hawk?

  I think there is also another thread here, though, for where the more senior leader can really help the junior leader. And so if you've got the junior leader, let's say, that's trying to hold their people accountable, that's trying to lean in and do that. Their leader has to recognize that and praise them for that and keep encouraging that and keep supporting that. Sometimes we're afraid of turnover, poor performance, whatever, and that can cause a junior leader to pull punches. It can cause a junior leader to not go all the way there and not make that tough decision that they need to. Because it's gonna make them look bad. That senior leader can say, don't you worry about that, man. I got your back. You make the tough call. You do it. You are gonna totally unlock that person, and that is a really important responsibility of the senior leader.

• 53:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I find more often you're letting the person down when you don't.

• 53:15Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 53:15Speaker 03

  Right? Like more often, those are the regrets I have looking back where I'm like, if I only told that person what they needed to hear at that moment when I didn't, I think it could have gone differently.

• 53:27Ryan Hawk?

  It's actually an incredibly selfish act to not tell somebody, to not let somebody always know where they stand.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  Putting your own.

• 53:35Ryan Hawk?

  It's putting my comfort in front of trying to help you. And so I think it's a very selfish act if you can't do that. And I think thinking of it that way, actually, if you truly care, right? Makes it better. Bert, in one of your Bert's Reports notes, which I love that you publish your thoughts every week. You said, "Things I look for when I'm promoting a leader." There are three things: hard decision-making, strategic bets, and simplifying complex problems. We talked about simplifying complex problems. I like to go a little bit deeper in the idea of making strategic bets. What does that mean to you? Like, when you're looking to promote somebody, you want to hire a leader, you want to help them rise up within the organization? What does it look like to make strategic bets?

• 54:17Speaker 03

  So you can make strategic bets on new lines of business you want to launch or get into, or just on promoting people from within. And I think it does, the leader does have to live with one foot in the present and one foot in the future. I think that's how you become that transformational leader.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  All leaders have have to do the same thing and it's called it's called growth. Like I don't I don't know of any leadership roles where you don't have to grow at all. Like financially, personally, professionally, no growth. You have to grow. And so if you're gonna grow, that means you're gonna be pushing into uncertain territory all the time. And so you gotta you gotta plan for that and you gotta make strategic bets on how to take advantage of the future and uncertain future. That's with the people you're elevating or that's with maybe strategic places that you wanna go. And I think a lot of leaders, we do them a disservice as senior leaders to not remind them that that is their responsibility. And that's where you get these sort of transactional leaders that just sort of show up to work every day and they just make the donuts a certain way

• 55:15Speaker 02

  because that's all they're supposed to do and they don't know that they should actually be working on like a croissant recipe because the market may be moving to that. And so we have to be thinking about always how, what are the next? It doesn't mean don't be like great at your core, the Jim Collins famous hedgehog principle. Yes, be great at that. You have to be, but how are you pushing and evolving yourself because it is a changing world?

• 55:37Speaker 03

  I do love the, I believe you just brought the cronut into the strategic leadership.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  I did, yes, correct.

• 55:43Speaker 03

  I'm gonna think of the cronut forever. One of my favorite.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Thanks, Chris.

• 55:47Ryan Hawk?

  Talk about hiring, Sam, and something you'd written and sent to me a few years ago. We talked about potential over experience. And you said, if you wanna build a culture of commitment and care, you have to choose potential over experience. What does that mean to you?

• 56:00Speaker 03

  I was really gonna try hard to work a pastry into this answer, but I don't think I have it. I don't, I don't know that I'm gonna be able to do it. Potential, yeah, I think.

• 56:08Ryan Hawk?

  That's because this is, it's a strategic bet. Because it's, they have experience, you can say, Bert, I hired them because look at their experience. Whereas if you hire somebody who doesn't have experience, you're making a strategic bet.

• 56:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I'm gonna try. So like if you, if you have dough, you can shape the dough however you'd like and you can cook it to exactly the temperature you like. If you have old bread, it's gonna kind of be old bread and it's gonna be hard.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  It's formed.

• 56:34Speaker 03

  It's made.

• 56:34Speaker 02

  You know, you're getting bread.

• 56:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  But it's kind of crunchy.

• 56:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:38Ryan Hawk?

  It's not that good.

• 56:38Speaker 03

  That was an attempt. When you take bets on people, they will almost always prove you right, number one. And then when you take bets on people and they do prove you right, they also are like, that's your gang. That's your like, that's your squad. Because like, nobody else took the bet on them, but but you did. If you want a group of people that wanna really go to work for each other every day as part of a team, you know, I think when you sacrifice a role to the outside, when that person was close enough that you give them that shot, I think the more you take chances. There's certainly roles like our chief legal officer where I'm like, I'm not promoting an entry level recruiter to run our legal organization, you know, but there's a lot

• 57:22Speaker 03

  of roles where I'm like that they're close enough, like they could figure that out. And we have promoted a lot of people in in different capacities to completely new roles. And I've just watched them for many years show up and do amazing work. So I just think, and when they do that, you guys have like a special bond around like what you were able to do together because it was hard, but we like figured it out together. So I just think that's a special way to look at building your business.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  And people put too much stock in experience. I mean, like define experience, like your experience is so much relevant to this job that you've never had before in my company. How like, so I mean, so I wouldn't much rather take the person that is it is in it, that's one of your people that will give you everything they've got and then some. It's funny you mentioned chief legal officer, and that was just an example. Our chief legal officer, we did promote from within, her name is Ariel Zion about a year ago now. She was one of our senior attorneys, our former chief legal officer retired, great guy. And this is a big job, right? We're a big company and so we had and we interviewed a bunch of candidates, a lot of great candidates and but Ariel had never been a chief legal officer before, but it

• 58:29Speaker 02

  was just like, man, I think she just, if I'm gonna go downswing, I don't wanna go downswing with Ariel. Like she's, she's one of our people, she's got it. And it is, every time I think about her in this role that we promoted her to, I just smile because I'm like, it was so the right hire. It was so the right hire, it was so the right promotion. Yeah, I guess it's a strategic bet in a sense, but it was so obvious to me.

• 58:49Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah, I wanna talk about being together. It's one of the reasons why I'm here in person. I like the idea of being with you guys, but you do the be the like calls oftentimes in an office, sitting literally shoulder to shoulder, touching others. And you can see you have this rapport, you're just kinda like one of the guys, but you're also the CEO at the same time. How important is it to you guys both? I'm curious about being together in person, whatever this R2 or return to office type stuff. We're almost like past that, like we need to be together. What do you guys think about that and why is it so important?

• 59:21Speaker 02

  I just think it's really important and it's how it's like, it's how it's how humans have. Live for a long time is together, not in isolation. Work is hard. I mean, whether you're still in staffing or making donuts, I mean, work doing really good, exceptional work well is really hard. And I think you need the supportive people around you, period. And yeah, I love doing the be the light calls and off, you know, in the pandemic, I did it by myself. And even if a little after I did it by myself, and it was always just, it was just me talking and it's for like 30 minutes. And I'm a funny looking bald guy. It's hard on the eyes after a while. So I like going to offices to our people and really like, I like going there to a full day before and getting to know them and getting in on all the inside jokes and all the

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  nicknames. So by the time the call comes in, we're just like a unit.

• 1:00:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like annoying for all the watchers.

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  We're so fun.

• 1:00:13Ryan Hawk?

  We're kind of a little jealous. I saw the Miami one recently and you got Bad Bunny playing and it's like Burt, I think he's like went on spring break with this girl.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's the best. It was so fun. And so, but I love that camaraderie. Reminds me when I was a recruiter, when I was a salesperson or a sales manager in our field offices, which was like the best job. And, uh, and I just think it's important, man. Like when you're like, again, it's sales, but it's also any, you have bad days at work. You, you have customer shoots you down. The boss says, I don't like this. You need a support system of people around you that can be like, dude, that's, that sucked. You're doing okay? You need to be able to laugh and let the pressure out of the room. You need to be able to hear, I love how Sam said that. I'm going to steal that and do that next time. Cause that was really cool. That is just huge. And so I understand that's not going to work for everybody. Yes, there are people that, that are in remote roles. Yes, there are companies that have more remote workers and that works for them and that's fine. But at our company, we're going to be the type of company that does work together.

• 1:01:07Ryan Hawk?

  One of the other commonalities about Insight Global that is not common, other places I've gone, is the high level skill of communication amongst the leadership team. When I think of Jess Calzareta, I think of Sam. Bert, you know, you Streppa Dowling, Greg Murray, I just watched this speech in Chicago. They're just killer after killer after killer. Even account managers that are newer in the company get up on stage and just crush. I'm just curious, is that intentional? Do you guys work on this? Where does that come from? The fact that so many people are, they could be like professional speakers for a living if they weren't doing this.

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  Our, I would say our posture is to push people out there. Get them out there, you know, put them on stage, have them say some, get it, you'll, you'll figure it out. And that's, that's, that's promoting them to sales the first time is having them speak. I mean, we would much rather say, you'll probably be fine, right? And, and we know that like, they probably will be because they care and they're obsessive and they want to get it right. And they're going to practice and they're going to work hard. They're not going to sleep for three weeks. They're going to have the speech and they're going to go crazy and they're going to kill it, right? But that's, that's because we just believe in them. And every time we've brought in, you know, guest speakers to come in and give a speech, I always laugh and like, yeah, that, that was fine. They gave a good speech, but it doesn't connect as well as our people because they don't quite sound like us. And they're not like how our people just get up there and totally let it rip.

• 1:02:26Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah. What do you think?

• 1:02:28Speaker 03

  I mean, yeah, same, same thing. Like I, I just, I was just thinking about Ashley Pye. I was just thinking about all the speakers from Chicago, but just watching a group of people that like, I've gotten a number of reps there now. Like I've had to get up in front of that group a number of times. That was their first time. And I would say my three favorite speeches were the three people who had never done that before. And I would say my three favorite moments from that entire conference was asking them afterwards how they felt. And just seeing the light inside of them, the, the, the feeling of.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  I did that.

• 1:03:01Speaker 03

  The feeling of achievement that they did for the suffering that they had for the last month to rep that and practice that. And I saw them nervous and strained and anxious. And I watched them in the 48 hours leading up to it pacing and not in a single conversation that they're in because they're pretending, but they're actually in their head worrying about this moment on stage the whole time. And then the relief that comes afterwards and the joy in their faces. And I'm like, that's it. That's all I ever want.

• 1:03:26Ryan Hawk?

  That's the coolest.

• 1:03:27Speaker 03

  It's the best.

• 1:03:27Ryan Hawk?

  That's the coolest thing.

• 1:03:30Ryan Hawk?

  That's the juice. That is the juice. It's the best. Bert, what's that, uh, what's that baseball about? Can I hear that story?

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  Sorry. Yeah. So this is.

• 1:03:37Speaker 03

  Also, you should know Bert has props all over his office.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, my office is like, uh, it's like a treehouse of sorts. I love it when really like important investors come or whatever. I'm like, that's my office. They're just, they're so. They're like, who is this guy?

• 1:03:52Ryan Hawk?

  What's, what's a CEO office supposed to be?

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  I don't know. Maybe more mahogany.

• 1:03:58Speaker 03

  Last paper.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  Last little kid stuff. But anyways, yeah. So, uh, I'm a huge Atlanta Braves fan. So this, I, I keep this baseball on my desk to serve as a reminder of something and, and I'll share what that reminder is once I tell the story and hopefully I don't get any negative blowback from the Braves organization.

• 1:04:15Ryan Hawk?

  It's all right.

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  But the Braves are starting off really bad and quite frankly, it's because I love Alex Anthopoulos. He helped us get a World Series, but he didn't make enough moves in the off season and we don't have that great of a lineup. And so we're struggling. I'm a season ticket holder for the Atlanta Braves. I've got some decent seats and, and so, and I love taking my, my kids, Eli and Will. I mean, the, every game they love going. It's such a great dad, daughter, son moment. And because I've been a season ticket holder, they recently sent me a signed baseball. I said, thank you. An autographed baseball from an Atlanta Brave player. Okay. Now I go to 50 games a year, 60 games a year. I, I know all the players and this baseball that was signed is from one of our relief pitchers named Jacob Webb. He's actually no longer a Brave. He, he left a few years ago. He got cut a few years ago. This is baseball. It's probably two years old now.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  Jacob Webb unfortunately is, is not one of the best relief pitchers. Uh, I mean, I'm sure the guy is, is a good guy. I'm sure, but he's, he's like, he's probably like the, like the worst relief pitcher that we had on the, on the team that season that they sent me this baseball. And no knock on him, but I'm like, wait, Atlanta Braves on this season ticket holder. I kind of have to pay a lot of money for these tickets every year. And you're gonna send me an autographed baseball thinking I'm gonna like that, but it's from this guy that's not very good. Like, that's a BS gift. Don't even send me that. Send me like a hat, or send me a letter, send me a handwritten card. I would, I would much rather do that, but don't, don't ask this poor relief pitcher, probably got better stuff to do, to sign a baseball to send to Bert Bean. That's inauthentic, I think. I

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  think that's not real. That's not going the extra mile. That's not being obsessive as to think, okay, what does, what do our best season ticket holders, what do they really need to get that's gonna be a nice token of appreciation? That somebody said, oh, have a, have a brave, send a autograph baseballs. And that was poor execution there, and they dropped to some intern that chased around and found whoever was in the clubhouse that day, and it happened to be Jacob Webb, just signed a baseball to send to me. And that is, that is BS, that is not taking something all the way through, that is poor execution, and it backfired. And so I want to make sure that I keep this baseball on my desk to make sure we, we don't inadvertently do things like that in our organization for our customers.

• 1:06:25Ryan Hawk?

  What would that look like? What does sending the Jacob Webb baseball look like at Insight Global?

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  I think, I think a good example of it is, is, is you promote salespeople out there and you give them inadequate training. You give them inadequate training as to how to talk about our services, as to how to talk about, you know, we're, we're doing a lot more internationally. We're doing a lot more selling professional services. I mean, one of the reasons why we've grown, Ryan, this, the last couple of years in, in a huge way, is our big investments in professional services. You know, the staffing industry is big, but you get out of staffing, you know, into, into selling bigger, more complex deals that are called professional services. Companies want to invest more in AI. They wanna, they wanna move teams to India. You have to know how to speak that and show up in that way. And if we don't do a good enough job of, of showing our salespeople how to speak in that way, and training them in that, in that way, making the right investments to, to carry it all the way through.

• 1:07:14Speaker 03

  Then then they don't show up well in front of the customer and they feel terrible. The customer is like, oh, I you say you can do this, but I don't believe you. You're not investing in me to help solve my problems. So I think that's just one example.

• 1:07:24Ryan Hawk?

  We got to run a little bit, but I have one more question I like to ask both you guys. Sam, you can go first. You you hire a lot of people right out of college. I actually spoke with one last week. Jack Matheson, University of Georgia graduate, who has high agency, very gritty, very curious, asked me a ton of questions, sent me this beautiful cold email asking for advice on how to get a job here. I already had other offers for other companies offering them more money, by the way. Did the interview.

• 1:07:50Speaker 03

  Jack's gonna do well.

• 1:07:51Ryan Hawk?

  Jack, yeah, killed it, killed the interview, got the offer.

• 1:07:54Speaker 03

  Congrats, Jack.

• 1:07:54Ryan Hawk?

  And accepted it, very happy for him. But cool stories like that. I love looking at people around that age range and seeing their trajectory. And so I'm curious if you were trying to help someone increase their velocity of that trajectory, Sam, who's in that recent college grad range. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you'd give to them?

• 1:08:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I I mean, that's that's pretty standard stuff, but I I think especially early on, you you just you you don't know that it's OK to show people you don't know. And the number one thing that you are is a person that doesn't know. And so the biggest piece of advice I give every entry level person is you got to let it rip when it comes to the questions and you got to also not have to ask four, five, six times. So ask a lot of questions, show everyone, I'm so sorry, I have to ask you so many questions right now, I'm so lost, I'm going to ask all of them. Also, you won't have to say it another time because I'm going to take great notes and I'm going to listen and I'm going to be ready to apply it. And it's like people that just start their careers knowing I got a lot to learn, I'm

• 1:09:00Speaker 03

  going to soak it all up and I'm going to work hard to learn it and learn it as quickly as I can. I think that you just start there and things are going to start working out really well for you. People that don't show up that way, I think it just gets harder faster.

• 1:09:12Ryan Hawk?

  Yep. Bert, what do you think?

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  Don't ever give somebody a reason to fire you. Glenn Johnson, our founder, told me that when I was first hired, sort of an intense thing to hear is on your first day, but he was like.

• 1:09:22Speaker 03

  He was an intense person.

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  He was like, hey, buddy, don't ever, don't ever give me a reason to fire you. And. Yep.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  So what he means, and I love it so much, it's your work ethic is just can carry you so far. You know, your ability to ask questions and to take good notes and to care and to lean in and to be obsessed can take you so far. And when the chips are down for a company, they got to make a tough decision. They're, they're going to fire you last if, if ever at all.

• 1:09:50Ryan Hawk?

  Love it. I just want to say to you guys, both of you guys, we've been working together now for five years. Our first meeting was supposed to be in person, March 17th, 2020. The day before, I remember you said, I think the world's shutting down. Are you sure you still want to come? And I said, yeah, yeah, I'll be there. I want to do this in person.

• 1:10:05Speaker 02

  I was like, I don't think Ryan watches the news.

• 1:10:08Ryan Hawk?

  And then I think like four hours later, it's like, actually, I think, I don't think it actually come down. So anyway, it's been five years now, which is insane to think about that. And I just, I just loved it. It's even better today than it was, I think in 2020. As far as just getting to know so many amazing people and getting to hang out in leadership circles and compass retreats and all the cool things. So I'm just really, really grateful for both you guys.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, thank you for everything you do for the company.

• 1:10:32Ryan Hawk?

  Of course, man. I can't wait for the next.

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  We love your podcast. It's the best one out there. If you're an aspiring leader, please listen to this. I mean, this, this show, I truly mean this, taught me so much about how to be a CEO in my first year. I mean, I love your podcast so much.

• 1:10:43Ryan Hawk?

  Dude, that means a lot. That means a lot. Thank you, guys.

• 1:10:49Ryan Hawk?

  It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, [email protected]. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Bert Bean and Sam Kaufman. A few takeaways from my notes. Holding people accountable. I loved Burt's spicy answer to this one and how he looked at me kind of sideways and said, like, what are you doing if you're not able to confront someone when they aren't meeting the standard? That's the job of a leader. If you can't do that, you can't lead. And this idea of having high standards and holding people to them, I think, is so, so important. Then Sam's hiring style and willingness to make bets,

• 1:11:34Ryan Hawk?

  strategic bets on people. And he prefers potential over experience. And he said, if you want to build a culture of commitment and care, you have to choose potential over experience. But this is the harder path. This is tough. This involves coaching. This involves caring for people. This involves being with them to help them grow and improve. And Sam is one of the best in the world at this. And then. A through point for the entire conversation was obsession. I love obsession. Being obsessed with caring for people, being obsessed with doing hard things like running 20 miles to work, which Bert did this morning. Being obsessed with how prepared you are for a big meeting.

• 1:12:15Ryan Hawk?

  Being obsessed with your standards, holding yourself accountable to high standards as well as those you are serving. The leaders who sustain excellence over an extended period of time are obsessed with their work, their growth, their craft, their people. I love obsession. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of the Learning Leader Show with Bert Bean and Sam Kaufman. I think they'll help you become more effective leaders because you continue to do that. And you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and you subscribe to the show and you rate it hopefully five stars and you write a thoughtful review. And by doing all of that, you give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily

• 1:13:00Ryan Hawk?

  basis and for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.