Pod Insights IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson You Need to Fight for Friendship with Julia Louis Dreyfus About this episode Legendary actress and comedian Julia Louis-Dreyfus joins the podcast to discuss the importance of building community in adulthood. Michelle talks about how she’s approaching life in her 60s, the surprising strategy she used to maintain her friendships while in the White House, and Julia shares the women who inspire her most. Plus, the group answers a listener's question about finding adult friends at every stage in life.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Michelle Obama? This stage in life for me, for me personally, is the first time that I've been completely free. Yeah, there's a real release. Where every choice that I make in my life is not about my husband, not about his career, not about what my kids need or where they're going. It's totally about me.
0:26 Michelle Obama? This episode is brought to you by Pine Sol and Chase Home Lending.
0:32 Craig Robinson? Hey, you.
0:33 Michelle Obama? Hi, Craig Robinson. How's it going?
0:35 Craig Robinson? It's going well, Meech. How you doing?
0:37 Michelle Obama? I'm doing pretty good. I'm digging that aqua.
0:41 Craig Robinson? This is one of my favorite pieces.
0:42 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah. It looks like, you know, you'd wear that pulling up in some hot shot ride.
0:49 Craig Robinson? Yeah, well, I've been tooling around in my Rivian R1S here in LA. And, well, it's actually not mine. Rivian has been kind enough to gift us with vehicles. But when I'm here, I've driven a loaner that I'm just falling in love with it every single time I get in it. So, but listen, we've had a great conversation about friendship.
1:19 Michelle Obama? Oh, yeah, today. Today, we're gonna talk about.
1:21 Craig Robinson? But today, we're gonna talk about friendships as we age.
1:25 Michelle Obama? Ah, OK.
1:26 Craig Robinson? And I was finding it hard when I was sort of researching this topic and thinking about it. Being a guy in a committed relationship, I never thought that when you're in a committed relationship, there's the potential of still being lonely.
1:42 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
1:43 Craig Robinson? Because, of course, I still have little kids at home, so I'm running around chasing them. But, you know, it's a phenomenon.
1:51 Michelle Obama? Yeah, and I think it's particularly true with women. Maybe it's the nature of men and women and how they, you know, sort of maneuver in the world. But I have a number of female friends in relationships who, you know, but for their outside friendships, would perhaps feel lonely within their relationships. And I don't want to generalize, but. Their men's habits are different. Sometimes they don't want to chit chat. They don't want to catch up. So I have a lot of friends who, you know, they love their partners, but they, you know, find their friendships and relationships outside of that unit.
2:35 Michelle Obama? But I don't, I don't know if you experienced that among your friends.
2:38 Craig Robinson? You know, I, I think what I perceive and what's actually happening now is making me think there is a gap there. Because I'm, I'm like most, I'm like a guy. I'm the kind of guy who is assuming everything is going fine until somebody says, oh, you know what? My wife and I are getting divorced. Or, you know, my wife's telling me she's lonely and I don't know what to do. I haven't had that happen. But I can.
3:03 Michelle Obama? People, people can be lonely inside of very healthy relationships. You know, if you don't share the same hobbies in common, if you have different temperaments, even different life patterns. And throughout my life, especially now that I'm getting older, I work very hard to maintain my relationships with my friends, whether we live in the same city or not. Maybe living in the White House and being in a position that was pretty isolating, right? You know, not too many people can walk up to my door and knock on it and say, just dropping by for a cup of tea, right? So as a result, you know,
3:47 Michelle Obama? people couldn't have our phone numbers. They couldn't for security reasons. So it, there was a wall between me and my friends that was real. And as a result, I got into the habit of making sure that I was continuously reaching out, finding ways to bring people in, planning events, planning trips with my friends. Because absent me doing that work, it was just really hard for a friend to call me over those eight years and say, hey, girl, wanna, you know, go to the movies? Or you wanna, you know, go on a trip with me? But I've found that that habit has served me well now that I'm in my 60s
4:30 Michelle Obama? and I can even foresee how beneficial that is as I get even older. Because my friends and I, we just have a routine of how we connect, no matter where we are in the world. We have habits, routines, rituals, you know, that we do amongst ourselves and even with our daughters as they get older, as with our kids as they get older, that has helped us sustain our relationships. But a lot of people haven't invested that kind of time.
5:03 Craig Robinson? Yeah, and I've all, I mean, you're so good at keeping your friendships close and inviting people in. Well, we've, we're gonna talk a lot about a relatable relationship, friendship questions today, and we've got a fantastic guest.
5:23 Michelle Obama? We do.
5:24 Craig Robinson? We have both been excited about this, so.
5:27 Michelle Obama? I think anybody
5:29 Craig Robinson? I mean, I
5:29 Michelle Obama? with a brain would be excited about our next guest.
5:32 Craig Robinson? And I'm talking about Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and she's an Emmy Award winning actress and comedian, known for her roles in Veep and Seinfeld, of course. But Julia is currently hosting a popular podcast.
5:50 Michelle Obama? Very popular podcast.
5:51 Craig Robinson? Called Wiser Than Me, and I'm excited to hear about that, too. But I have so many, a varied number of questions that it, we might get off topic, but
6:02 Michelle Obama? Well, we'll
6:02 Craig Robinson? we'll have to rein it back in.
6:04 Michelle Obama? Cause you're really fangirl in here.
6:06 Craig Robinson? I'm really excited about that, so without any further ado, Julia, come join us. Oh, there she is.
6:17 Craig Robinson? So happy you can be here.
6:19 Michelle Obama? I'm so happy to be here.
6:21 Speaker 02 I am so delighted to be here, and I was, I'm sure you don't remember this, Michelle, but I went to a SoulCycle class with you.
6:29 Michelle Obama? Oh, my gosh, yeah, I went through my deep SoulCycle phase.
6:33 Speaker 02 You were kind of an addict.
6:34 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I was, I was, yeah, yeah. And we went right around the White House.
6:39 Speaker 02 That's right.
6:39 Michelle Obama? So how did you find your SoulCycle? And had you been doing SoulCycle?
6:43 Speaker 02 No, I had never done it before. I do other things to work out, but I hadn't done SoulCycle. Yeah. Didn't care for it.
6:53 Speaker 02 But I was happy to try it.
6:54 Michelle Obama? It's an acquired taste.
6:55 Speaker 02 It is, in fact.
6:56 Michelle Obama? Yeah, it is.
6:57 Craig Robinson? I think she's the only one in our family who liked doing it.
7:01 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I went through, I'm like that with activities, you know. It's like potato chips, I can't just eat one. Once I, you know, link into something, I'm like all in.
7:12 Speaker 02 Do you like to hike?
7:13 Michelle Obama? I do, but I don't hike as much as I did, just like I don't do SoulCycle as much. I've had to vary as I've gotten older.
7:19 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:20 Michelle Obama? My workouts, because
7:22 Speaker 02 Me too.
7:22 Michelle Obama? They mess up the body in certain ways.
7:25 Speaker 02 Yeah. You really have to differentiate.
7:27 Craig Robinson? Yeah. You gotta diversify. So tell us about Wiser Than Me. Are you having fun?
7:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's really, you know, the genesis of it was that I saw this, this movie, this documentary with Jane Fonda about her life.
7:44 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I saw that one, yeah.
7:46 Speaker 02 And I was so struck by the breadth of her life, profundity, if she'd been done so many different things. And it got me thinking about, wow, there's so many women out there that are older.
7:59 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
7:59 Speaker 02 I mean, at the time, she was 85, I believe, that are older, that have had these extraordinary lives and we're not hearing from them.
8:06 Michelle Obama? That's right.
8:07 Speaker 02 So I wanted, so I was like, I need to, oh, I've got to find a podcast that talks to those women. Of course, there wasn't one. So then I just started to do it. And, and it's really taken off, so it's nice. And it's an opportunity for, talk about friendships. It's an opportunity, I've made some real friends doing this, including Jane, by the way. So we're doing a lot of sort of political, environmental activism together now as a result of this, which is great.
8:31 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I think the concept is beautiful and it's necessary. We've talked about this a lot, how women, as we age, we get pushed out of the picture.
8:42 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's incredible.
8:43 Michelle Obama? Right when we're, you know, as you know, now that I'm 60.
8:48 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:48 Michelle Obama? This is really the first time in my life where I feel completely me and I can write. Absolutely embrace my wisdom.
8:58 Speaker 02 Yes.
8:58 Michelle Obama? I mean, because I think we as women, we spend most of our lives saying, well, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. We qualify everything.
9:06 Speaker 02 And we apologize.
9:07 Michelle Obama? We apologize. We don't want to put our opinions on the table because maybe we're wrong. We're always hedging, you know, because in the back of our minds, we weren't raised with the certainty of maleness. That, you know, kind of the confidence that young men in their 30s have, which they haven't earned. They just have it.
9:27 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
9:27 Michelle Obama? You know, we don't start feeling that and owning that until our 50s and 60s. At a time when we start to be treated as invisible in society. And the notion that you are capturing that wisdom in a systematic way is powerful.
9:47 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think it's critical for both, for the culture generally. It's not just for women, it's for men. Frankly, we're just missing an opportunity.
9:55 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
9:56 Speaker 02 I mean, these women are, I think of them as being on the front lines of life. And they can report back to us what they've seen and what, and what we should or should not be doing.
10:09 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
10:09 Speaker 02 And as people, not as just as female people, but as people. Um, so I am thrilled to do it. It's a lot of work because I want to come to the table really well versed in what they've done and who they are. And we're talking to scientists and novelists and, you know, everybody. And, uh, and I'm learning a lot as I go. Yeah.
10:34 Michelle Obama? And this may be an unfair question. Um, what's one of the most fascinating things you've learned in this process from one of these women? Or
10:44 Speaker 02 Oh, gosh.
10:45 Michelle Obama? A, a, a couple of things that you would say have stuck with you?
10:51 Speaker 02 No is a complete answer is something that stayed with me. I'm sure you've heard that before, but it sure is a meaningful sentence. And particularly as women, we are sort of, our culture indoctrinates us to, to put a caveat onto a no. I know I should, but I can't, you know, all of that kind of stuff.
11:16 Michelle Obama? Yeah, women, we have so many landmines and barriers and don'ts and limitations. It's, you know, I mean, Craig, you're the guy at the table, but I think it's important for all guys listening, especially men raising daughters, to realize that difference. You know, and that thing that inadvertently, as you are loving and raising these beautiful girls, there are so many rules that make us small.
11:49 Speaker 02 Baked in without our knowing it, you know? And I wish I can, I mean, I, well, I, you know, I remember people saying, oh, well, she's a female doctor. As opposed to just, she's a doctor.
12:03 Speaker 02 You know?
12:03 Craig Robinson? No, this is good. We have to remember this for the next time you're here to talk about that topic. But we're here to talk about friendship and loneliness as older adults.
12:17 Michelle Obama? As we, as we get older in life.
12:18 Craig Robinson? As we get older in life. And we have a really good question today, talking about sort of being an adult and having this very vibrant friend life that all of a sudden is not there anymore. And I found this topic really interesting. And I think, I think now's a good time to have Natalie, our producer, read the question.
12:44 Michelle Obama? And then we can dive in.
12:46 Craig Robinson? Dive in, yeah.
12:47 Michelle Obama? Natalie.
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18:25 Speaker 03 Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Andrea and I'm 40 years old. My mom Sharon is 68 years old and has always had a meaningful and wide circle of friends. Friends from high school and college, and friends she made while she and my dad raised my sister and me. She also had an extensive social network through my dad's colleagues. He was a college professor at a university in Texas, and the campus brought them many close friendships. Friends they'd shared dinner parties with, joined on weekend trips, and seen nearly every morning for the run club on campus. My mom was also fortunate to be close with her own coworkers at her job in the college admissions office. But a little over a year ago, my dad retired and they moved back to North Carolina, where they both grew up.
19:10 Speaker 03 My sister and I stayed in Texas, and I think I saw this coming, but when I talked to my mom recently, she admitted she felt like she'd lost nearly every friend she'd ever made. I know she'd already experienced some strain on her friendships in Texas, whether due to retirements, or illness, or divorce. But this big move means all the social structures that once supported her friendships have vanished, and with them, her connection to her cherished communities. So, my question is, how can my mom reframe her thinking around friendship during this pretty radically new chapter in her own life? Whether that be gaining enthusiasm for making new friends in North Carolina,
19:55 Speaker 03 or maintaining connections to her old friends without the help of built-in community and networks? As her daughter, I am especially concerned with helping her to answer this question because of a fear she revealed to me that I really hadn't seen coming. She told me she's actually feeling a brand-new resistance to connecting with people because she knows that eventually, more life change will just lead to more friendship loss. How can I help my mom in her new feelings of loneliness, and maybe reinvigorate her desire to make new friends in this brand-new stage of life? Thanks for your thoughts, Andrea.
20:35 Speaker 02 There's a lot to unpack in that question. And, can I dive in? Please. I mean, there is so much going on there. She's obviously, this is a woman who wrote that, right? Yeah, her daughter. Right, she is obviously a very devoted daughter. So, to begin with, it brings up the idea of getting older and starting to parent your own parents. Oh, yes. Which I've certainly been through and am going through, and I know you guys have as well. So, and that's an amazing flip-a-ru that you never anticipate when you're younger. It doesn't even occur to you that all of a sudden, you know, she's worried about her mom making friends.
21:17 Speaker 02 Aren't, isn't it usually your mom's worried about you making friends? Exactly. So, that's an incredible thing. But I see it as very surmountable, you know? We- We recently lost our home in this horrible LA fire. And so our community is gone.
21:39 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
21:40 Speaker 02 Gone.
21:40 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
21:41 Speaker 02 And where we raised our children.
21:43 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
21:43 Speaker 02 And so I'm sort of wrestling with the same thing.
21:47 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
21:49 Speaker 02 And what I'm finding is that if the focus is not necessarily meeting a friend, which has kind of a, I'm not saying it's a bad focus, but...
21:59 Michelle Obama? But it's a different stressor. It feels a little oppressive, right?
22:03 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's like, you're, yeah, it's you're putting pressure on yourself. And maybe if the focus is, and this is what I'm trying to do, getting involved in community where you are, you will find your people. That's what I think. Certainly, that's what I'm trying to do as we kind of work our way through this moment. And my own parents recently went through the same thing that this woman's parents went through. That is to say, they moved into a new community.
22:36 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
22:36 Speaker 02 And it was hard for them. But particularly, my mom became involved in this garden community. And I mean, there's something about taking action.
22:50 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
22:52 Speaker 02 That can open up doors.
22:54 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
22:55 Speaker 02 I think.
22:57 Michelle Obama? You're absolutely right. One of the other things I hear in this question is, you know, that makes me kind of sad, but it's something to tie into is that the listener's mother has expressed a fear and a hesitation around the possibility of building new community because of the potential for loss.
23:21 Speaker 02 Yeah.
23:22 Michelle Obama? And I think that's worth her daughter, their family, trying to unpack a little bit, right?
23:29 Speaker 02 I agree.
23:30 Michelle Obama? Because it is completely right that building community is the focus. But if you're afraid of that, if the very thought of, you know, doing that work and taking that kind of action makes you afraid because you could lose something.
23:44 Speaker 02 Yes.
23:45 Michelle Obama? Oh, it's like, well, then you're, you could be stuck.
23:48 Speaker 02 Yeah.
23:48 Michelle Obama? And, you know, it's... Part of friendship is taking that risk of loss. And it doesn't change because we're older. In fact, that's always the case with friendship.
24:02 Speaker 02 It's always the case with friendship, but I think specific to aging, you will lose folks.
24:08 Michelle Obama? Exactly.
24:08 Speaker 02 You are gonna lose them. Naturally, that's just...
24:11 Michelle Obama? That's a part of it.
24:12 Speaker 02 It's a part of it, and it stinks. I know. And I'm not quite there yet, but we're headed there.
24:20 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
24:21 Speaker 02 God willing, in a weird way.
24:22 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
24:23 Speaker 02 But maybe doing a deep dive into that fear is probably worth it for her mom to do.
24:31 Michelle Obama? I had to, probably in my position as First Lady, just as an object point for the listening mother. I mean, one could have argued that there was every reason in the world for me, in that position, me and my husband, to be afraid of making new friends, right?
24:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, very good point.
24:51 Michelle Obama? And you sort of think about it. In fact, I know one of the things that Craig said when Barack ran and won, you may want to share that, was...
25:00 Craig Robinson? No new friends.
25:01 Michelle Obama? Right.
25:03 Speaker 02 You said, "Don't make new friends"?
25:05 Craig Robinson? I said that to Misha and Barack. I was like, "Watch out." And I couldn't have been more wrong.
25:11 Michelle Obama? Right.
25:12 Speaker 02 Oh, but that's fascinating.
25:13 Craig Robinson? Yes.
25:14 Michelle Obama? Yeah, because the automatic feeling, which would be natural, is you gotta watch who you associate with in this position.
25:22 Speaker 02 And you don't know what their intentions are.
25:24 Michelle Obama? Precisely. You know, so I understood the sentiment of the warning. And as my big brother, you know, and we came from an already big, established community, right? So it wasn't like we were going into this thing just solo, right? But the difference for me was that I still had little kids, right? I mean, my girls were 10 and 7, moving into a new neighborhood, a new community. And my whole goal was to normalize their experience, to not make them feel like these odd little kids with Secret Service that were... Outsiders, which meant that I couldn't, I didn't have the luxury of saying no new friends.
26:05 Michelle Obama? Right? Because when you're raising your kids, you have to be a part of a bigger community that they're in.
26:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, otherwise you're screwed.
26:13 Michelle Obama? Otherwise you're screwed.
26:14 Speaker 02 Right.
26:15 Michelle Obama? It's exactly the way it was. So that push, that necessity was the absolute best thing. You know, leaning into that fear, into that caution, it was the best thing that I did for myself and for my family. And my point to the listener that I learned is that it was absolutely worth it. And it was probably a very scary experience because it was not only, we not only faced the risk of loss, disappointment, but we could have met people who were, met us no good, who we couldn't trust, who,
26:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
26:48 Michelle Obama? you know, gossiped about us, who, you know, sold stories. There were many things that could have gone wrong.
26:54 Speaker 02 Right.
26:55 Michelle Obama? But the truth is, is that most people are really good folks.
26:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
26:59 Michelle Obama? You know, even when you're in a high-powered position, most people are, are, are open to the new.
27:09 Speaker 02 And I would say too, in that circumstance, you're there, you're sort of looking at the community where your children are going to school. You need to get to know these parents.
27:19 Michelle Obama? Exactly.
27:19 Speaker 02 As a parent, you must.
27:21 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
27:21 Speaker 02 And so your goal is not necessarily going in it to make friends. Your goal is to understand where they are and how, and then out of that comes relationships that you could count on.
27:37 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
27:38 Speaker 02 It's pretty interesting, actually. It's really, it's like fame on steroids. It really is.
27:44 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
27:45 Speaker 02 Because I, I had, I've had that on a much smaller scale, same kind, you know, when you're a famous person, it's weird getting out there sometimes. And you'd, and people approach you and you're not sure what their intentions are about. So if there's a way to, I don't know what, through an action, through a community, through the, where there's sort of common ground.
28:08 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
28:09 Speaker 02 As there was at school, for example. I mean, I don't know how your husband did it.
28:14 Michelle Obama? Well, he was dragged into it along with me because he also had the barrier of no time. Right? I mean, but in the face of that, because of my focus and determination and his interest. It was like, no, you gotta go to parent teacher conference. And he wanted to go. It's like, even if you don't have to go, you have to go. Right. You know, you have to get the school normalized to you being the type of engaged parent that you were before election night. That's right. And you were the father that went to parent teacher conference. Right. You were the father that would coach your girl's basketball game. Right. League, and he did. I know he did.
28:57 Michelle Obama? But all of this is to say to our listener, for her mother, is it's worth the risk. People will be waiting out there with open arms. People are kinder, even though it doesn't feel that way these days. Yeah. I've been in our country, and I've been in every angle of it, and it doesn't change overnight. And the vast majority of American people are good people. Yeah, and they want to connect. They want to connect. And connection is the answer. The connection is.
29:33 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
29:33 Michelle Obama? The answer.
29:34 Craig Robinson? I love that. I love that.
29:35 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
29:35 Craig Robinson? I also want to address a little bit because Andrea is trying to help Sharon navigate this, to your point, the daughter becoming the mother.
29:47 Michelle Obama? Tell me about it.
29:48 Craig Robinson? But the husband is still there, and I think.
29:52 Michelle Obama? Yeah, totally lost him.
29:53 Craig Robinson? I know, I know.
29:54 Michelle Obama? Oopsie, oopsie. It's like, that's right.
29:57 Craig Robinson? That's why I'm here.
29:57 Michelle Obama? Sorry, sir. She's not a widow.
30:00 Craig Robinson? She's not a widow.
30:00 Michelle Obama? Although it sort of sounds like she is.
30:03 Craig Robinson? But that's my point. That's my point. I mean, this community shouldn't just be her community.
30:09 Michelle Obama? Tell me about it.
30:10 Craig Robinson? He should be trying to help out.
30:12 Michelle Obama? Way to bring the male voice.
30:14 Craig Robinson? And I'm just saying this because when we were talking about this, this was such a foreign concept to me.
30:21 Michelle Obama? As a man?
30:22 Craig Robinson? As a man, just the kind of guy that I am, that. I would want, first, I would want to know that my wife is suffering from this loneliness. Because if we up and moved to North Carolina, I'd be trying to find somebody to play hoops with or golf with, or go to the cigar store with, or you know, whatever.
30:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:43 Craig Robinson? I wouldn't be trying to help her get inserted in the community. But I think that should be a team effort as opposed to just an individual.
30:53 Speaker 02 It's good to have a partner. And she has a partner, so it's time for her partner to step up. Yeah.
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34:44 Craig Robinson? as false positives and false negatives do occur. Available by prescription only. I love this time of year, but hosting during the holidays can be a bit of a challenge. So Kelly and I have collected a few hacks to make it a little bit easier. One of our favorite moves is an extendable dining room table. It's this great walnut color, and it's mid-century modern, so it looks awesome in our space. And it even has extra storage in the legs. When we don't need the middle panels, we just slide them out, and our space is back to how it was before. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home so you can host and celebrate without the stress.
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35:50 Speaker 04 Wayfair, every style, every home.
35:58 Craig Robinson? So that's some advice that we could give Andrea is
36:02 Michelle Obama? Talk to your dad. Talk to your dad.
36:04 Craig Robinson? Get your dad involved in this too.
36:05 Speaker 02 100%.
36:06 Michelle Obama? Where's dad?
36:07 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
36:08 Michelle Obama? Is he, you know, is he sitting in the chair, doing the same thing over and over and over again? Or is he trying to think of ways for them to creatively connect together? And then? In their community. Great, great point. Yeah, Craig.
36:25 Craig Robinson? Well, I appreciate.
36:25 Michelle Obama? Robinson. So, do you think that you, in your marriage, have you focused on?
36:35 Craig Robinson? We're not at a point.
36:37 Michelle Obama? But think ahead. Think ahead.
36:39 Craig Robinson? All right, I'll think ahead because we're not at a point now. We're so busy.
36:42 Michelle Obama? Around the corner, those two are gonna be gone.
36:45 Craig Robinson? When the kids get old enough to go to college.
36:47 Michelle Obama? How old are the youngest ones again?
36:48 Craig Robinson? Fifteen and thirteen. So we've got six years, six years. In six years.
36:52 Michelle Obama? Goes by like that.
36:53 Craig Robinson? We'll be empty nesters. And our plan is to figure out the most optimal place to be where we can enjoy them the most.
37:06 Michelle Obama? Yep, that's smart.
37:07 Craig Robinson? But we're not gonna, we're not planning on jettisoning our friends because we're empty nesters. And I've always thought you all do a great job of that with your friends because your girls are grown and you intentionally get together with your friends on a regular basis.
37:26 Michelle Obama? Yeah, you have to be intentional.
37:27 Craig Robinson? Yes.
37:28 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I do the same thing. But I have advice for you for when your kids, when the younger kids leave, in five years, not six, by the way.
37:35 Craig Robinson? Yeah, five and a half. Yeah, you're right. You're right.
37:37 Michelle Obama? But anyway, what I want to tell you is you just make sure that after they leave, all their, the sheets on their bed are high-quality sheets. And that bed is the most comfortable bed they ever slept in in their life, and they'll always come back. Gosh, yeah, we call it creating. I'm actually not shitting you. That's true. No, no, Barack and I, we are all about creating what we call the attractive nuisance. Thank you. We just, we wanna, you know, make it so that you wanna be back here. Yes. And we're starting, they're old enough now, right? Because there's that period when they just leave and they're in their early twenties and they're just like, bye. See ya. We're living our lives and we're so happy to be sleeping on a dirty mattress and in college.
38:21 Michelle Obama? And they're just now getting to the point where they hang around just a little, a couple of days longer because the tub is clean, right? Yeah, that's right. And their bath salts. Their bath salts, things smell good and appreciate. There's a lot of stuff in their fridge. That's right. That's right. That's what they say. And there's food we can actually eat.
38:40 Craig Robinson? I like, I like the sheets idea, though. That's a, that's a tricky one, because they wouldn't necessarily figure that out.
38:46 Speaker 02 They get used to the foulness.
38:47 Michelle Obama? That's right.
38:49 Craig Robinson? Well, Julia, I want to ask you a question.
38:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:52 Craig Robinson? What are some of the strategies that you use to keep your friends?
38:56 Speaker 02 Oh.
38:56 Craig Robinson? Who are your friends?
38:57 Speaker 02 Well, I've got friends from different sections of my life, right? Um, we travel a lot together.
39:03 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
39:04 Speaker 02 And my group of friends from elementary school, we try to have a reunion once a year somewhere. We all get together and it's so funny, you become, it's like you're 12 again. We start howling, laughing over the dumbest things you ever heard of in your life. And, um, so I make, particularly nowadays, I'm making a real effort to have adventures with these people.
39:32 Michelle Obama? Yeah, travel is a good thing. We do a lot of that stuff. You know, joining crafts, taking up hobbies with your friends, trying some, you know, so you don't, not everybody.
39:43 Speaker 02 What hobbies have you taken up? What crafts?
39:45 Michelle Obama? Well, you know, we've had, I've had girlfriends who have organized some Zumba classes, some hip hop classes that we've said to do more of, you know? So I'm, I'm saying to, um, our listeners, Sharon, you know, some of the ideas, it's like, you know, you can get your girls together from around the country to try a new thing, you know? They can come and visit you and you set up a cooking class.
40:10 Speaker 02 Uh huh.
40:10 Michelle Obama? Or you learn how to knit, or you take up tennis. So right now, several of my, my girlfriends have gotten into playing tennis.
40:19 Craig Robinson? Mm hmm.
40:20 Michelle Obama? And we don't always get to play together, but when we are together, now that there are many who have taken lessons and taken up the sport, we'll go find a court, we'll hit, you know? And that has become a bonding opportunity.
40:35 Speaker 02 By the way, you know, tennis, I heard is supposed to be so good for aging. Did you hear that?
40:41 Michelle Obama? I've heard, yeah, I've heard.
40:42 Speaker 02 It has something to do with the, it's the mind eye coordination. I'm not sure exactly, and also the, the lateral movement as well as the pounding.
40:51 Michelle Obama? Yep.
40:51 Speaker 02 But, um, and I can't say anything more than that, but anyway, do it.
40:56 Michelle Obama? Yeah. Just do it. Well, the advice is that, you know, learning something new. Correct. With your friends or with a new group of people, that's another. If we're talking about ideas that we have for building community, new community, or sustaining old community, that's, you know, I mean, a lot of my friends, we just figure out something new we want to learn, we want to try, and we do it together. It's more fun to do it together. But intentionality is, as you mentioned, Julia, is a word for the day. And if Sharon goes to her new place and she sits in her fear and her loneliness, and she says, and she bemoans what she lost. Yeah.
41:37 Michelle Obama? And doesn't think about ways of viewing this as a new opportunity to stay open and to meet new people and not to focus on the possibility of loss. There are so many ways to not, to break out and not be alone. That's right. I think we live in a culture nowadays, and it's not just older people, but unfortunately, younger folks who have, you know, lived through COVID. They've gotten too attached to their phones, they live online. I mean, this is why studies are showing that we're seeing unprecedented levels of loneliness and anxiety. Because we've gotten out of the habit of building friends, building community,
42:22 Michelle Obama? or the understanding that it's, as humans, that's something that we need. We need each other. Yeah, it is not a luxury. Yeah, right, exactly. It's a necessity. Right, right. Our phones are not a necessity. Our phones are a luxury. Right. And that they cannot replace the thing that community and friendship provides to us regardless of the age, but especially as we get older, you know? And because we know that we're going to experience loss, that that's the, that's the end of the story, you know? Yeah.
42:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:57 Michelle Obama? And, and, you know, I would want Sharon to keep that muscle of community building active. Yes. You know, because it is a muscle. You know, if you do get out of the habit of, of starting a new. Learning something new, you know, that's what's ahead of me. I'm 61 and all I'm thinking about in the future is what new things am I gonna learn?
43:22 Speaker 02 What are you gonna learn?
43:23 Michelle Obama? You know, right now, I'm focused on tennis.
43:26 Speaker 02 Yes.
43:27 Michelle Obama? You know, I don't know, maybe I'll go back to the piano one day. It was an instrument that I started to play as a little girl, haven't touched it since then. But maybe, maybe.
43:39 Speaker 02 Why not?
43:40 Michelle Obama? I'll find the time to start taking lessons, you know?
43:43 Speaker 02 I'm doing tennis too. My husband gave me tennis lessons for my birthday, so I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do that. But, and I'm taking French lessons now.
43:55 Michelle Obama? Okay, yeah. From scratch, had you ever studied?
43:59 Speaker 02 I know, I do know some French, but I'm trying to like, take it up a level now. That's my goal. Oh, I hope I can do it.
44:07 Michelle Obama? Yeah, but all these new activities for Sharon are an opportunity, especially if you do them in groups. If you sign up for a tennis clinic, you're gonna meet somebody.
44:16 Speaker 02 Totally.
44:17 Michelle Obama? I would, I would just say, don't do things in isolation.
44:21 Speaker 02 In solo, yeah.
44:22 Michelle Obama? You know?
44:23 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:23 Michelle Obama? Take some classes, go into community.
44:26 Speaker 02 Yes.
44:27 Michelle Obama? Join a gym. And as we get older, we should embrace the fact that we have more time, you know? I mean, we aren't parenting our kids anymore, they're parenting us. We're not worrying about whether they're getting home on time or whether they did their homework. I mean, this stage in life for me, for me personally, is the first time that I've been completely free.
44:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, there's a real release.
44:51 Michelle Obama? Where every choice that I make in my life is not about my husband, not about his career, not about what my kids need or where they're going. It's totally about me and Sharon, you know? If she thinks about it like that, wow, she's got a new freedom, she's starting over in a new city.
45:11 Speaker 02 Yes.
45:11 Michelle Obama? There's so much to learn and to see and to do. It's like, this is, this is when we start living, ladies.
45:19 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:19 Michelle Obama? This is the age.
45:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:21 Michelle Obama? When we're free.
45:22 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:22 Craig Robinson? Well, you, you both have talked about.
45:27 Craig Robinson? Maintaining friendships.
45:29 Michelle Obama? Mm-hmm.
45:30 Craig Robinson? Have either of you, Julia, have you, or Misha, have you lost any friends at this stage?
45:37 Michelle Obama? Mm-hmm.
45:37 Craig Robinson? Have you, and if so, what are some strategies on how to bounce back from that?
45:44 Speaker 02 Well, it sort of depends on what the circumstances are. I mean, I've lost friends. I've had a couple of friends die. And that has been devastating because it was just truly unfair of the universe. So I'd like to lodge a complaint. But, so that's just a lot of grief to reconcile. And grief is sort of a separate, I mean, grief from actual loss of life is its own thing.
46:22 Speaker 02 But then, I've also lost friends because we sort of moved on.
46:28 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
46:29 Speaker 02 And there's something kind of freeing about that. You know, a couple of relationships that were a little bit toxic had me doubting myself too much and
46:42 Speaker 02 had games and stuff. And there was a moment in which it was like, oh, mm, oh, yeah, right, I don't have to do this anymore.
46:48 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
46:50 Speaker 02 And how about you?
46:51 Michelle Obama? Oh, for sure, for sure, both, both and. You know, and I've experienced loss of friends throughout my life. I mean, one of my best friends from from college died suddenly of lymphoma, you know, at the tender age of 20, in our 20s. You know, and, you know, that's, like you said, that's a different kind of loss than losing your grandmother or losing, you know, someone in
47:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's not the natural order.
47:21 Michelle Obama? Order. And I think for me, that loss woke me up at a time in life when I was just starting to define myself as a young adult and a young professional. That was the time in my life where I thought, well, what am I doing with my life? Right? Right. She lost hers, and there was no reason she was one of the sweetest, kindest people that I ever knew. So it made me think, well, do I really want to finish out this life on the 47th floor as an associate in a big corporate law firm? Sounds fabulous. Is that my fate? Is that why I'm left here and she, you know?
48:01 Michelle Obama? And the answer to that was, nah, there's got to be something more, you know? And what am I afraid of? And that decision, as a result of that loss, opened my eyes to not the nonprofit world, city government, public service, you know? So that loss turned out to be one of the things that provided me with the foundation of who I am. Yes. But there are definitely the friendships that, like you said, Julia, just sort of ran their course, you know? That's okay.
48:38 Michelle Obama? And I, as I age, I am more grateful every day of the friendships that I've invested in and maintained. Yeah, I am too. They are my lifeblood. And I love my husband, and we are dear friends. But we don't do the same things all the time. We have different interests and we have... And I think that's healthy. It is completely healthy. It's got to be that way, actually. You know? And we have wonderful times apart, and we travel differently. And he'll go off with his friends and golf, and I'll hike a mountain, which he's not going to do, you know? Definitely not. So I would hope that for Sharon and her husband, that it becomes even more important with
49:21 Michelle Obama? him alive, that they continue to build together and separately. By the way, they're still young. 68. 68, really? Come on, not even 70 yet. It's like, now's not the time to tap out. No, do not tap out. Too much, this is just the beginning. Yeah. You know? It only gets better.
49:38 Craig Robinson? Well, just for clarity for Andrea.
49:41 Michelle Obama? Yes, yes.
49:42 Craig Robinson? Let's give Andrea some strategies to take back to Sharon. And the biggest one I'm hearing is your community. Right?
49:50 Speaker 02 I actually think she should start by talking to her dad.
49:54 Craig Robinson? Okay, that was on my list too, but that was down.
49:56 Michelle Obama? Bring dad into the conversation.
49:58 Speaker 02 Into this situation. This is not her burden alone.
50:03 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
50:05 Speaker 02 And, but community, community, community.
50:08 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
50:08 Speaker 02 Surely, surely she has some interests that they can cultivate.
50:13 Michelle Obama? Professor, correct? And do I get that right?
50:16 Speaker 02 I think her husband was.
50:18 Craig Robinson? The husband is the professor.
50:19 Michelle Obama? But she was a professional.
50:21 Speaker 02 Well, she was a professional and she worked at the university.
50:24 Michelle Obama? Yeah. So she's, she's got interests. The second thing I would say is intentionality. It's like friendship and community doesn't happen on its own. I, I don't care who you are or.
50:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
50:38 Michelle Obama? You know, how wonderful a person you are, whether you're shy or outgoing.
50:44 Michelle Obama? Friendship requires intentionality.
50:46 Speaker 02 That's right.
50:46 Michelle Obama? Planning, scheduling, prioritizing, all of it has to be a part of it. It is, it does take work, so.
50:54 Speaker 02 Say yes, say yes.
50:55 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
50:56 Speaker 02 Say yes.
50:57 Michelle Obama? Say yes.
50:58 Craig Robinson? Well, you know, this, this has been really helpful for me. And I hope it's helpful for Andrea and Sharon.
51:05 Speaker 02 Yeah.
51:06 Michelle Obama? Thank you, Julia. It was great spending time with you.
51:08 Speaker 02 It was so nice to spend time.
51:09 Michelle Obama? A wise woman.
51:11 Speaker 02 Wise-ish, wise-ish.
51:15 Craig Robinson? Wiser than most.
51:17 Speaker 02 Thank you, guys.
51:18 Michelle Obama? Thank you.
51:40 Speaker 05 Hi, I'm Molly Graham, host of Work Life, a podcast from TED. The most important lessons about work usually aren't the ones anyone teaches you. They come from experience, from uncertainty, from figuring things out as you go. On this show, my expert guests and I explore how careers really unfold. Through change, through doubt, through the decisions that shape who we become over time. Because those moments aren't the exception, they are the work. Listen to Work Life wherever you get your podcasts.
Previous Put The Phones Away with Jonathan Haidt Next Focus On What’s Right About Young Men with Barack Obama Page updated November 1, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
