Different Strokes with Arshay Cooper and Dr. Kevin Stone

Neil deGrasse Tyson rowed crew?! On this episode, Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice explore the physics, physiology, and lessons of rowing, featuring Dr. Kevin Stone and Arshay Cooper, author of A Most Beautiful Thing.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist, and it's sports edition. StarTalk Sports Edition. And today's topic is rowing. And it was cleverly titled Different Strokes. I love it. Primarily because each of our three segments, we're going to three very different places. First, we're going to do the physics of rowing. Second, the physiology and biomechanics of rowing. And third, we're going to find out how exclusive a sport rowing is.

• 0:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And is the time overdue for other kinds of folks to take up rowing? Not just the prep school crowd? All of that in this show, Sports Edition. So, we had to, Gary, you there?

• 1:01Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm there, man.

• 1:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, good. Former soccer pro, former commentator, no, you're a current commentator with us.

• 1:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 1:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Former soccer commentator.

• 1:08Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm still broadcasting, don't worry. I'm out there polluting the airwaves.

• 1:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. And Chuck, always good to have you.

• 1:15Chuck Nice?

  Hey. Always a pleasure, man.

• 1:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, and...

• 1:18Chuck Nice?

  I thought this show was going to be called Different Strokes because we were going to have Todd Bridges on. I'm very disappointed.

• 1:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, you mean from that show?

• 1:24Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, well, that's...

• 1:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The show from like 1982?

• 1:27Chuck Nice?

  I would ask if there's anybody under 40 might know.

• 1:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Exactly.

• 1:33Chuck Nice?

  Somebody under 40 might know who Mr. Drummond is.

• 1:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So anyhow, humans have been rowing boats for thousands of years. And actually, for seven of those years, so did I. I actually rowed. We'll get to that in a minute. So today we want to just take a look at the sport and the art of rowing. For example, like, why do we row backwards? Why aren't we facing forward when we row? And how much physics is in it? And the Tokyo Olympics is right around the corner, and so this is the time to do it. And for this show, we searched far and wide for a physics expert to talk about rowing. And the producer said, Neil, you're the cheapest invite we can bring to the show for that purpose.

• 2:21Chuck Nice?

  Yay!

• 2:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I am the guest for this first segment to talk about the physics of rowing. So Gary, Chuck, I'm all yours.

• 2:31Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, let's, let's jump straight in. Um, what are the physics of rowing? Because, and, and why the hell do they row backwards?

• 2:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so what you want to do is exploit the, the, the muscle setup that human beings have to extract as much energy as you can in order to move the oar through the water. Well, for many people, their bicep is stronger than their tricep for many people. But that's not what's important here. What's important, so now I'm using all of my back muscles to pull. But wait, there's more. Because if I coil myself in a sliding seat, then I can explode with all of my leg energy. And some of your biggest muscles in your body are your quads and your glutes.

• 3:21Gary O'Reilly?

  Totally.

• 3:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And those get engaged on a reverse stroke. So there's no doubt about it. The reverse stroke is taking full advantage of your biggest muscles and the muscles that have the longest stretch. You can just pull so that your hands are completely into your chest, so that your legs formerly cocked are now straight. All of that is just to say that the, the rowing stroke, as it has developed over all those millennia, uh, that they did the right thing.

• 3:54Chuck Nice?

  Wow. Well, let me just, uh, say, I might as well take this time to announce that my left stroke just went viral and, uh, my right stroke put a baby in a spiral. So I'm just saying, just saying.

• 4:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 4:08Chuck Nice?

  That's another reference. See, that's a reference that maybe some young people might get, Neil.

• 4:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, sorry, I, I didn't, sorry, I missed that one.

• 4:14Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, man, that, that's, that's way over my head. That's in the clouds. Anyway.

• 4:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, wait, but, but before we do more of this, let me just say, I wrote, I enjoy, I, I, I had multiple sports in my sort of sports portfolio. The one I loved most was wrestling, but I also fully enjoyed rowing for the fact that you have seven, uh, what, like, I rode in an eight. Eight-person shell, they call it. Wow. And so you have teammates, you have that have to do exactly what you're doing. And I just wanted to say, we have someone who was spanking brand-new out of college, well, it's a couple of years ago, who's one of our producers. Who's like, producing this show, but she rowed in college, okay? Lane, please join us here for, just for a brief second.

• 4:56Speaker 03

  Hi, Lane, everyone.

• 4:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Everybody, welcome, Lane.

• 5:00Chuck Nice?

  Yay, Lane.

• 5:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You graduated college 2019?

• 5:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, fresh out.

• 5:07Gary O'Reilly?

  So here's a question, here's a question for both of you. Do you intuitively pick up the physics as you learn the art of rowing?

• 5:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, I'll get to that, okay?

• 5:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, how long are we here?

• 5:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No.

• 5:22Speaker 03

  Well, because I, I was sort of wondering if Neil, being a physics person, if he, you know, had, had a different...

• 5:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Utilized it.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, if he utilized it, because I'm, I, I was an English major. Uh, there wasn't a lot of English happening on the water, a lot of non-verbal communication.

• 5:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Lane, I, I don't want this to go unrecognized. What was the average height of, of the women in your boat?

• 5:46Speaker 03

  Uh, in my boat, probably, we'll say, we'll give them 5'11". I'll let the shorter ones go up a little bit.

• 5:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, so this is obviously not including the coxswain, so...

• 5:56Speaker 03

  Yes, of course.

• 5:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That would bring down the average greatly. And your, and what's your height?

• 6:02Speaker 03

  I'm 6'3".

• 6:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  6'3".

• 6:04Speaker 03

  No one over Zoom knows that, but... I don't know about Neil, Neil, you're, you're on the taller end. Were you like, were you a five-seat or something?

• 6:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I was six-seat, yes.

• 6:15Speaker 03

  Six-seat, I was, I was usually five.

• 6:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so that's, that's otherwise called the, you're in the engine room. The middle four seats of an eight-person boat is the engine room. Where basically you're getting most of the power of the boat from those four folks. And so, and the fact that I was six, I rowed port and it means, uh, Lane rowed starboard in a normally outfitted boat, is that correct?

• 6:41Chuck Nice?

  Uh, yes.

• 6:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so you wrote starboard. Uh, then, and you're both hands on one oar. And we'll get to the physics of that in just a moment. But I just wanted everyone to, to, to see you, Lane, and introduce you to our fans. And so, so thanks for jumping in for these few moments.

• 6:55Chuck Nice?

  Thanks, guys. And thanks for pulling for us all days.

• 7:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes. Making us look better than we deserve to in your editing of our products. So Chuck, Gary, give me some more questions. What do you have?

• 7:08Gary O'Reilly?

  If we've got rowers like Lane, who's six foot three, this is leverage. This is wingspan. So how are we taking people this tall and making unbelievable things happen in a boat?

• 7:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, so here's the thing. The oar is not propelling the boat when it's not in the water.

• 7:30Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay.

• 7:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you want it in the water.

• 7:33Chuck Nice?

  That's unfortunate.

• 7:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes.

• 7:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's, it's not unfortunate, Chuck, it's physics.

• 7:40Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 7:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's simple, okay, it's unfortunate physics. How about that?

• 7:43Chuck Nice?

  Yes, it's unfortunate.

• 7:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so you want the oar to be in the water as long as possible with a force being applied to it. All right, so now, if you have long arms, as generally tall people do, and if you have long legs, as tall people do, then as you're pushing yourself away from the base of the... Because at the beginning of a stroke, you are coiled up.

• 8:11Chuck Nice?

  Almost sprouts.

• 8:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Almost, and your knees are practically up in your chest. And your arms are extended forward as far, practically as far as they can reach. And that puts the oar way behind you in the water. And so you drop the oar in the water, and then you have this huge sweep. A huge sweep. And so if you have long arms and long legs, you can sustain a very long and powerful stroke. So rowers tend to be taller than average. And what is the average height of women in the United States? It's five... Five, four, something like that, at most five, five. And Lane is pulling around a boat that's damn near six feet.

• 8:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So these are some women kicking serious rowing ass on, on the lakes. And so, so yes, that matters. And by the way, something that I'm surprised people still don't know. All right. Uh, everyone is practically the same height in their torso. And evidence of this is when you, when people sit around a conference table, you don't have to seriously adjust the chair heights. Okay. Everybody's head is approximately the same level. It's when you stand up, you realize that tall people generally have much longer legs than short people, even though the torsos are, are basically the same.

• 9:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So tall people have long legs and long arms, and that's what is powering a boat.

• 9:40Chuck Nice?

  Well, you're not a specific kind of tall person though, because a lot of tall people tend to be lanky and less muscular.

• 9:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 9:49Chuck Nice?

  But it sounds to me like you guys need to be kind of jacked in order to, in order to get this thing done right.

• 9:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so this Gary pumping his biceps. Here's the thing, the thing about rowers, um, because it's not a, a, you know, there's a difference between endurance and pure power.

• 10:12Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 10:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Which is why marathon runners don't get unlimitedly large legs, thighs. Okay. So, so there's, there's a distinction there that you can make between what kind of body would then be best served in the sport. I remember when I tried out for rowing, there's a, um, there's a guy, there's in, in college, there's a heavily muscled guy there. And it's like, yeah, I'm, I'm strong, I could pull this, or I could do this, I got this. And they put him on the ERG, which is a, a, a simulated rowing machine that can monitor your power output. I had wrestled in high school. This guy lifted weights and weightlifters think very highly of their bodies. All right.

• 10:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But I, as a wrestler, my body needed to do stuff. My body needed stamina. All right, my body needed all the things that the rowing sport needed. And so I went on this ergometer, that's what it's called. And I got one of the highest ergometer scores ever.

• 11:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And this guy was like, he, he, he, he, he basically fell off the chair halfway through. Because his muscles. I don't understand what is happening.

• 11:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't get it. There's not even any weights on this. So he's thinking because you're strong that you have stamina. And no, they're not the same thing. And for your muscle to have stamina, it can't just keep getting bigger and bigger. So that's.

• 11:40Chuck Nice?

  That's sad. So let me ask you this then. You said Elaine that the four people in the middle are called the engine room. Why the four people in the middle is where you get the most power? Why, why not put, why not put the last four people? I mean, out of, out of six, make it the last four or out of eight, make it the last, why not do that?

• 11:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so maybe two and two and then the four.

• 12:02Chuck Nice?

  Two and two and then in little, in the middle, why, why that combination?

• 12:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, I don't have a good answer for that, but I have an answer. Okay, the boat is widest in the middle. And it gets narrower as you get to the bow and the stern. So you tend to put the smaller of your rowers where the boat gets narrower.

• 12:23Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 12:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And the boat is more stable in the middle. So if I'm bigger than you and I'm slightly off center, that has a less damaging effect on the stability of the boat than if I'm on one of the extreme edges. So everybody's got to be exactly coordinated because this boat is, is.

• 12:46Chuck Nice?

  There's nothing to it.

• 12:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's nothing to it.

• 12:48Chuck Nice?

  There's nothing to it. So, so.

• 12:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You are the stabilizers for the boat, which means if you.

• 12:53Chuck Nice?

  That's amazing.

• 12:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If you go unstable, you destabilize the boat.

• 12:56Gary O'Reilly?

  So why is it, why are they, when they say the more oars in the water at the same time, the better? Does that, or is that addressed for the situation you were discussing?

• 13:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's the, it's the, it's the ballet of the rowing stroke. And my point is, I, when I first rowed, I didn't have the technique. I had to be taught that by, by the coaches. You know, it's when do you engage your arms? In a slightly different way and tie that you engage your lower back than, than when you engage your legs. So there's like first your back and then you start pulling and then your legs kick in. Don't kick, but they extend. And this harmonizing of your muscles.

• 13:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  executes the perfect rowing stroke. Not only that, the oar can twist in the oar lock.

• 13:44Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 13:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 13:45Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 13:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So this allows when the, again, there's more physics and this is aerodynamics. So, so while, while you're dragging the oar through the water and then you lift it out of the water, you want to do that quickly because once you're at the end of your stroke, you don't want to leave it there because now you're stopping.

• 14:01Chuck Nice?

  Now you're right.

• 14:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So at the instant the end of it, you lift it out. Now you gotta bring it back to start again. You don't want to bring it back fully open because now you're waving.

• 14:11Chuck Nice?

  Once again.

• 14:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 14:12Chuck Nice?

  Drag.

• 14:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's drag. Good. So you, what's called feathering the oar. And you, you bring it back flat. And then right at the instant where you get to that, you go pop and it goes, and it drops in the instant you turn it over. And these are all the techniques. And if you have eight people doing that simultaneously, oh my gosh. It is, it is poetry in motion. And you get the, and if, if you follow the sport, the coxswain who steers the boat, because we don't, we don't know where the hell we're going, all right?

• 14:44Chuck Nice?

  He was pretty.

• 14:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The coxswain. Oh, and by the way, each one of us has only one oar. If, uh, let's say Lain and I were in the same boat and let's say she was pulling stronger than I was, then you don't want to steer against that. What you do is you match up your rowers, port and starboard so that you have an equal sort of, uh, force on each side of the boat. Otherwise the boat will always, uh, drift.

• 15:10Chuck Nice?

  It's gonna drift. Yeah.

• 15:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not drift, that's not the right word, always, uh.

• 15:12Chuck Nice?

  No.

• 15:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're off.

• 15:13Chuck Nice?

  It, uh, it'll pull.

• 15:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It'll pull, exactly.

• 15:15Chuck Nice?

  Like, uh, like a car with a, with a bad wheel.

• 15:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  With a bad wheel, precisely. Oh, beautiful reference, Chuck. And so, so, so, so this at the back here is called the catch and you drop it in and then there it goes. Now watch. If you don't catch that catch perfectly, what can happen is the, the, the water swooshing by the boat can grab your oar and rip it out of your hands. It's called catching a crab. And then your oar is like, oh my gosh. And the, and it drags the oar down and everybody knows when somebody caught a crab. And that, that, you lose a race if somebody catches a crab. So watch for that in the Olympics.

• 15:56Chuck Nice?

  So this is from your justice.

• 16:01Chuck Nice?

  Brief description, I'm going to say this is the ultimate team sport.

• 16:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, I'd have to agree.

• 16:11Chuck Nice?

  There is no greater synchronicity that you can find in any other sport.

• 16:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, maybe synchronized swimming, but is that a sport?

• 16:21Chuck Nice?

  I was gonna say, no, I'm gonna say including synchronized swimming and diving.

• 16:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 16:25Chuck Nice?

  You know?

• 16:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, synchronized diving, those are good. That's pretty good what they do.

• 16:29Chuck Nice?

  But yeah.

• 16:29Gary O'Reilly?

  In an eight man crew.

• 16:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was not eight of them, incorrect.

• 16:31Chuck Nice?

  They're not connected. They only have to be timed. They don't have to be connected. You guys have to be timed and connected. And if I screw up my dive, my partner comes up and goes, man, what's wrong?

• 16:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's wrong with you? Oh, yeah, you get slapped. You get slapped.

• 16:46Chuck Nice?

  If you screw, if you screw up in the shell, you actually mess up the other people that are connected to you.

• 16:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Correct. Correct. Correct. And a couple more things. By the way, if it's wind, if you have a tailwind during the race, if you happen to have a tailwind, then you don't feather the oar.

• 17:06Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 17:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Leave them up.

• 17:07Gary O'Reilly?

  Do you want, you want to push?

• 17:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. How about a crosswind? How about when you get a crosswind?

• 17:12Chuck Nice?

  The oar becomes a tiny little sail.

• 17:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Crosswinds is like, it's like, it's, it becomes a circus in a crosswind. Because you have to steer against the crosswind. Boats can end up like colliding with each other. It's, crosswind is really nasty on the water. But, but anyhow, that's, that, maybe we should do a whole other show where all three segments are on physics, but that's sort of the basic physics of what's going on here.

• 17:35Gary O'Reilly?

  You are constantly going from aerodynamics to hydrodynamics, to aerodynamics to hydrodynamics.

• 17:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's, yes, correct. And in each stroke, you see the boat, if you look at like the boat as it, it, it pulsates forward. That's when everyone is doing the stroke and you come out, then it drops down and then the, then the stroke picks it up again.

• 17:56Gary O'Reilly?

  The boat looks like it's lurching.

• 17:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, and it's lurching every time everybody does the stroke. Not only that, last thing before we take, take a quick break. The, I read about this, but I haven't seen footage, that before we had the good material science for a sliding track for your seat.

• 18:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What they had was just a flat surface and they put grease on it. And you'd wear grease resistant pants and you'd just slide on the grease. People have greased butts. So anyhow, so this technology has touched the sport as well. And maybe we can do a whole other one on the technology of rowing. And add some more physics in it. But we're running long here. I'll take a break and when we come back, Dr. Kevin Stone, who's a physiologist and former rower, and his wife rowed and his two kids row. And he's thought a lot about rowing and the human musculoskeletal form. When we come back on StarTalk.

• 19:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back, StarTalk Sports Edition. We're talking about Different Strokes. There's an entire show just on rowing. And for this segment, we're going to talk about the physiology, the biomechanics of rowing. We talked about the physics of it as a sport. Now it's time to talk about the human beings that are doing it. And we've got, who is now, I count him as an old friend of StarTalk, Dr. Kevin Stone. Kevin, welcome back to StarTalk.

• 19:47Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 19:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A world renowned orthopedic surgeon. And I didn't know if I joked with you last time that I've heard many people call you carpenters. Is this, is that an insult or a compliment?

• 20:01Speaker 04

  It's only one part of what we are because you have to remember there's the art and science to it as well.

• 20:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so there's the part with the hacksaws and then the part...

• 20:09Chuck Nice?

  That's spoken like the true founder of the Stone Research Center.

• 20:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Founder of the Stone Clinic and the Stone Research Foundation. What a coincidence. It has your name on it and you're founder of it. So tell us what goes on there.

• 20:25Speaker 04

  So we're an orthopedic surgery clinic in San Francisco with a public nonprofit research foundation attached. So I don't believe that any doctor should put something in or do something to a patient that they either don't know the outcome or aren't trying to study and figure out how to make it better.

• 20:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, very good. And it also allows you to make discoveries that could help others.

• 20:47Speaker 04

  What we do.

• 20:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's very notable. It's what we do. It's how we roll. You know how it is, right? And just in case we didn't fully embrace your expertise, we can just look on the wall above your left shoulder and one of those, one or more of those tells us you've got the expertise, at least for this segment. And so let me ask you, you used to row, is that correct?

• 21:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, more importantly for the segment. So I rowed in high school and college. I married a high school and college rower and both of our daughters rowed in high school and college. It's a disease that's transmissible.

• 21:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Didn't know that, a contagion. So how would you, how would you rank rowing among sports, not only for just enjoyment, but also for injuries? Yeah. Because you would see and know injuries, not only for rowing, but for any other sport. How torturous is it compared to the other sports?

• 21:46Speaker 04

  It's actually the most torturous.

• 21:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, my God.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  And I'll give you the data around why we can say that. So a rowing race is about six minutes at the top level. In the first 100 meters, the start of the race, the athlete is putting out maximal energy and using up all of their oxygen.

• 22:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, just to be clear, it's a 10,000 meter race.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  2,000 meter race.

• 22:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, sorry, 2,000 meter race. So the first couple of hundred meters, okay.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  First 100 meters or so at the start, the stroke rate is as high as possible. The athlete is using up all of their oxygen. By a minute 20, they've used up all of their reserves, their sugar reserves in their muscles and their body starts producing lactic acid, that compound that makes all athletes' muscles sore. By the second minute, they're at maximum lactate production in what we call the endurance capacity of the athlete. And they have to carry that maximum lactate production now for another four minutes.

• 22:57Speaker 04

  And that's why rowing produces the largest left ventricles in the hearts of athletes, produces the largest muscle fibers, and it is considered really the most difficult of all endurance sports.

• 23:12Chuck Nice?

  And that, okay, so now here's the second question, okay? And I think I speak for many people listening to this program right now. Why the hell would you do this? What is your problem? Why? Just a simple question, why?

• 23:28Speaker 04

  It's a really great question. Because number one, there are no spectators. Number two, there's almost-

• 23:34Chuck Nice?

  And why would you do this to your children, too?

• 23:37Speaker 04

  There are almost no glory, except for for yourself and your team. There's no money involved. There are no prizes, other than the medal at the end of the race. So there's something about rowing that combines the phenomenal athleticism with this skill and art and balance that it takes to make that boat stay steady in the water, in what's called setup in the water.

• 24:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Doctor, when you're, when you're, as I would call it, finding yourself in the boat, going through that level of exertion, what happens now you've got the rest of this race? How do you, do you damage? Do you recover? And, and can you kind of develop on the back of that?

• 24:18Speaker 04

  Exactly. So you, you are not only performing at your peak outlook, output, you need to perform with seven other people at their peak output. And so that is the beauty of rowing, that not only are you at maximum exertion, you're at maximum, maximum exertion in concert with seven other people in an adored shell. And that beauty of working together, of pulling that hard, of gliding on the water.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  Is a magical sensation and it produces something in athletes that every business wants. And so every business recruits rowers, every top college recruits rowers. Because there's something in that ability to suffer at that level, but to also produce in concert with others that makes people very attractive.

• 25:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But wait, so when, as you're getting tired, so we burn out the, the, the, the sugar reserves. Now you're, you're, you're on fumes at this point. Uh, but yet everyone has to stay in perfect harmony. And often the first thing to go is your composure or your, your, your capacity to stay in form. Yet everyone's in the best of the, the boats, everyone stays in perfect form throughout their, their loss of energy. The whole arc of the loss of energy. So what's going on there?

• 25:41Speaker 04

  There's something that's going on there called the very little person. And that very little person is called the coxswain, coxswain or coxswain. And that coxswain is sitting traditionally in an eight at the stern of the boat, cheering you on, yelling at you, keeping the rhythm of the boat, watching for any little errors. And that coxswain's voice rings in your head for a lifetime. You can never get rid of it. And it is what keeps everybody together, trying to follow the stroke of the first person in the boat, who's sitting in the, what's called the eight seat, the stroke seat. And that coxswain's keeping you in order.

• 26:18Chuck Nice?

  Now in the movie Ben-Hur, when he had been taken into, uh, forced labor and he was put in the belly of a ship and forced to row. Instead of a coxswain, they used a drum. And the, the beat of the drum, uh, corresponded with the stroke of the slaves that were rowing. Why not just use a timekeeper?

• 26:42Speaker 04

  Because the coxswain has to also steer the boat, make sure you don't hit the bridge or hit the wall, as we saw in the movie, and also has to tell the boat, when is it time to put out not just maximal effort, but super maximal effort, called a power 20, meaning you're rowing at your max effort down the course, the other boat, your competitor, may be starting to catch up, or they may be just a little bit ahead of you, and the coxswain drills you to just give that little bit more that you didn't think you had.

• 27:12Chuck Nice?

  Did you just tell me that in rowing, you turn it up to 11?

• 27:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I, I, that's exactly what he said, and I have to, I have to, I have to concur, because we'd be up there, and here's how you can get to 11, if you're wondering, we're all at peak power output, and in that peak power output, we're inching up on another boat that's ahead of us, and the coxswain is saying, "We got the 6th seat, give me another seat!" And they're like, they're telling you, "Oh, my gosh!", and you can find energy that you didn't know you had, as you inch your way to come abreast of the other boat, and then pull ahead, and so, or if your lead is being threatened by yet another boat, so you, you can find 11 out of 10, practically every time.

• 27:54Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 27:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are you with me on that?

• 27:55Speaker 04

  Neil, that's exactly why people admire oarsmen and admire rowing, because it teaches you to find 11. You said it brilliantly.

• 28:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So how much do you involve yourself with the psychology of this? I know you're a physiologist, but psychologically, this matters too.

• 28:11Speaker 04

  So, rowing is, is a metaphor for life, so if you're coming in with an injured knee and coming to surgery, if you're coming to whatever challenge you have ahead of you, coaching the rowers is the same as coaching a patient coming to surgery, it's the same as coaching anyone facing a challenge in life. You can do it, especially if you prepare for it, if you train for it, and you can do even more than you might imagine, if you have a team together, and a coach, a cox, a spirit, a goal, there's more in you if you know how to find it.

• 28:45Chuck Nice?

  Interesting.

• 28:48Chuck Nice?

  An optimum physiology.

• 28:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 28:51Chuck Nice?

  That makes the greatest rower. Or is it really about all of you guys getting together?

• 28:56Speaker 04

  Yes, it's a great question. So, height matters. And that's because in rowing, you're on a sliding seat with a long oar. You're driving the force with your legs predominantly. And there's something unique in that when you're rowing and your two legs are pushing together, they actually create more force than just the sum of each leg individually. And so in rowing, when you coach that athlete to the best of their ability, they're driving all that force with their legs. And the longer the legs and the more powerful they are, the longer that lever arm and the better they're gonna do.

• 29:34Chuck Nice?

  So you want somebody tall, but you also want them to be strong. You want more like Chris Hemsworth, not Manute Bol.

• 29:42Speaker 04

  There you go.

• 29:44Gary O'Reilly?

  So doctor, does, I mean, from the point of view, bad technique.

• 29:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, just on that height thing. Hang on a sec, hang on a sec. Isn't there a height above which the, they, they can't fit in the boat? Because everyone has to fit between two other rowers?

• 30:02Speaker 04

  There is, but those guys get grabbed by the basketball and volleyball. They never make it to the boathouse.

• 30:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so the basketball coaches, they're at the front entrance, right? They don't even get in the hall. All right, Gary, go ahead.

• 30:16Gary O'Reilly?

  My take on this is bad technique generally ends up seeing someone like you. So does knowing the science of what you just discussed enable better technique and therefore put you out of a job?

• 30:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, because the most common injuries we see, especially in the young rowers that we see here from the top rowing club here in Moran, are back injuries. And so if they lever improperly, if their, if their body position of the boat's improper, if they're reaching too hard and not driving with their legs first, but driving with their back, then we'll see them with back strains. Fortunately, in rowing, it's not like skiing where the injuries don't usually require surgery, although occasionally an overuse of a shoulder could. Most of the time, these are just overused muscle injuries and conditioning injuries.

• 31:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because rowing is not a contact sport, right? And so you're not going to get trauma injuries.

• 31:09Speaker 04

  It's not supposed to be unless you hit the bridge or hit the end of the boat.

• 31:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not supposed to be.

• 31:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Normally.

• 31:17Chuck Nice?

  How did you get a concussion rowing?

• 31:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, do you think rowing is ripe for the addition of modern technology that's so influencing other sports?

• 31:31Speaker 04

  So it's benefited from the technology predominantly in lightness, meaning carbon fiber has made the boat so much lighter, made the oars so much stiffer, made the seats roll better. So all of the advantages of lightweight sporting materials have been built into rowing shells today. So the question is, what's the future? Where's it going to? Can you make them even lighter and stronger and faster? I'll tell you that almost every other sport that is on the water today and involves a boat is foiling, meaning they're putting, just like in the America's Cup, they're putting foils underneath the boats to get lift and send them over the water. That, of course, has not entered rowing yet, but just the idea that a foil or a change like that can so dramatically change a sport.

• 32:16Speaker 04

  We can look ahead to rowing and there's some idea out there that hasn't been done yet, but it may change it.

• 32:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And just to be clear, when you say a foil, you mean something, when I think of, I think of an airfoil, which is a shape that influences the flow of the air or water above it and below it, is that correct?

• 32:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, and these days the foils beneath the water lift the boats out of the water. So they're virtually sailing above the water itself.

• 32:43Chuck Nice?

  A water wing.

• 32:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Water wing, there you go.

• 32:46Speaker 04

  So there could be shape changes in shells that cause it to have less water resistance as we go forward.

• 32:52Chuck Nice?

  Interesting.

• 32:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Interesting. Cool.

• 32:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, we gotta kind of end it there. That's sad. But I just want to thank you for coming back and telling us about your rowing. Very excellent. Okay, well, thanks for joining us, StarTalk. When we come back, we will introduce you to someone named Arshay Cooper, who is a coach, a motivational speaker, author of the book Sugar Water, and which is now a movie called The Most Beautiful Thing, celebrating what happens when you bring rowing to communities that don't traditionally row.

• 33:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The whole story is, you'll hear it when we return.

• 33:40Chuck Nice?

  You know what time it is. It's time to shout out our Patreon patrons, Alex Redner, Arlindo Anderson, and Miranda Toth. Guys, without you, we couldn't do this show, and we appreciate your support. And for anyone else listening who would like their very own Patreon shout out, please go to patreon.com/startalkradio and support us.

• 34:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back. Startalk Sports Edition. Different Strokes. We're talking about the sport of rowing. And fulfilling the concept of Different Strokes, we can ask the question, is rowing the exclusive purview of prep schools and New Englanders? Or is the time overdue to broaden that base? It's all about the base. Welcome, my guest for this segment, Arshay, Arshay Cooper. Welcome to Startalk Sports Edition.

• 34:49Speaker 05

  Thanks. Excited to be here.

• 34:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Arshay, before we begin, do you have a, a, a, a social media handle that you want to share with everybody?

• 34:56Speaker 05

  Yes, at Arshay Cooper on Instagram and on Twitter. That's it.

• 35:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There it is. Arshay, A-R-S-H-A-Y. Did I spell that right?

• 35:04Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 35:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You got it.

• 35:05Speaker 05

  You spelled it right.

• 35:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. All right. Excellent. So you're a rowing coach, and you won the Benjamin Franklin Award for your writing. Was it for a book called Sugar Water? Is that, did I say that right?

• 35:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was a book called Sugar Water, but changed the name to A Most Beautiful Thing.

• 35:22Chuck Nice?

  Oh, wow.

• 35:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I kinda like, I kinda like, they're both, I kinda like Sugar, Sugar, Sugar.

• 35:27Chuck Nice?

  It's something about it. Watermelon sugar, ha. Watermelon sugar, ha.

• 35:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you're also, you're also a motivational speaker and an activist and you're the force behind, is it a movie documentary, A Most Beautiful Thing? And it's the true story of the first all-black high school rowing team.

• 35:49Chuck Nice?

  What?

• 35:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, what were you thinking?

• 35:53Chuck Nice?

  How's that even happen?

• 35:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But how, what, is that like the Jamaican bobsled team? What were you thinking?

• 35:59Speaker 05

  I know, I got a lot of messages of people saying, "Cool rowings." I was like, yeah.

• 36:05Chuck Nice?

  So, by the way, guys, by the way, uh, stay tuned for RSH's next documentary, The First Downhill Slalom All-Black High School Ski Team.

• 36:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm just saying, you know, maybe some sports, God never intended.

• 36:26Chuck Nice?

  Right, yeah, exactly. Especially after a certain period in history, it's just like, look, I want these two black guys to get in this boat and start rowing.

• 36:37Chuck Nice?

  Excuse me? And I'm sorry, no, no.

• 36:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And someone will be yelling commands at you while you do it.

• 36:44Chuck Nice?

  Nah, we fell for that once, man, we fell for that once. Nah, man, nah.

• 36:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Alright, so who, so tell me about this story. It's, it's so, uh, it's so even unbelievable that it's, it's amazing for how unbelievable it is. So go for it.

• 36:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, I, you know, I went to Manly High School on the west side of Chicago. At the time, it was the second most violent high school in the city of Chicago. And I remember walking in the lunchroom one day and I seen this boat. Boat was beautiful. And, you know, and I stopped and stared at it and this little white lady came up to me and she said, "Hey, you wanna be a part of the crew team?" I'm like, "Crew? Like, you know, you're taught, you know, if someone tell you to join their crew, turn around and run the other way as fast as you can." And like, I, you know, I'm confused, you know?

• 37:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But I'm also confused that there's a rowing show in, in the lunchroom. That's a little weird to me, but go on. I'm actually stuck on that right now, but go, keep going.

• 37:39Speaker 05

  That's why I stopped and stared.

• 37:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 37:40Speaker 05

  And so behind the boat was the TV monitor and they were showing the Olympic Games. And, and it said this sport would give you an opportunity to travel. And although at that time it seemed like an opportunity, no one in those images reflect the world I was used to. So I said, no. And I walked away. Like, nobody signed up. And so I showed up the next day. This time it says if you sign up, you get free pizza. So there's a long line.

• 38:06Chuck Nice?

  Damn.

• 38:07Speaker 05

  You know what I mean?

• 38:08Chuck Nice?

  Pizza as a commodity. Oh my gosh. I know. We doing the same thing with vaccinations now. It's great. It's great. It's great.

• 38:20Chuck Nice?

  I want pepperoni. That's the other line.

• 38:25Speaker 05

  Yeah. And so, you know, I, you know, I go up, you know, to the info session after school and all these young people were sitting on the floor. And, you know, I, I saw a black coach. And so I was like, wow, like, there's a black coach in, in this sport, you know, and that showed me right away that, you know, maybe I'll be protected in this, this space that's different from, from me, you know, and, um, they gave this amazing speech about the power of rowing and the opportunity to travel. And I remember saying to myself, wait a minute, there, there are no cheerleaders. There's no busload of fans. There are no million dollar contracts after college. I don't know if I want to do this.

• 39:00Chuck Nice?

  And did they, did they tell you about the, uh, getting out in the water at five o'clock in the morning part?

• 39:06Speaker 05

  They did not tell me that.

• 39:08Chuck Nice?

  Oh, okay.

• 39:09Speaker 05

  They didn't tell me that. But I tell you, but the moment, you know, so we joined, we joined a team. We started to learn how to swim a little bit. And fast forward, we get on the water. First time we get on the water, no one moved. Like, you know, I'm talking about these were guys who, who probably carried a nine before. They were crying in the boat, like, and I talk about it in my book, and the coach told us, pull them back in. We did not move. And so we go back in. I saw a disappointment on the coach's face. The next day we go back, we show up. We pushed out to open water in the middle of Chicago. And it was so crazy because the same, the survival mode that kicked in, that the same survival mode that usually tell us, if you hear a gunshot run,

• 39:53Speaker 05

  told us, if you want to get back to the dock safely, you have to pull for each other. And in order to pull for each other, you have to shut up and listen. And there's only one person talking. And they saying, sit tall. Breathe. You belong here, right? And that's when we began to feel the magic in the boat as we rowed by pairs.

• 40:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You had to grab a dimension of what that sport was, encapsulate it and then bring it not only to yourself, but to others who had the same skepticism you did when you first encountered that sport.

• 40:25Speaker 05

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 40:27Chuck Nice?

  So for both of you, Neil too, because Neil Cruz and or did, you know, and how much of this is mental in terms of when you are in that kind of meditative state, this rhythmic, because it is such a rhythmic sport. It's so about timing. Like as a comedian, it's one of the sports that you look at and you really appreciate because it really is about timing. Everything from the stroke to the turning of the oar to everything, to the placement in the water, to, you know, the synchronicity with your teammates. So where does that, what's going on in your brain? When all that stuff is having to happen?

• 41:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's only one answer. Ninety percent of the sport is half mental.

• 41:21Gary O'Reilly?

  That's my mathematics right there. See, that's the kind of mathematics I can understand. I mean, Asher, you talk about, and when I've read the things and listened to the things you said about looking backwards while you're moving forwards and what that kind of meant to you as a rower, as a coach, as now an influencer in a youth community?

• 41:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I wrote in my book that in, you know, in crew, I learned that it's okay to look back as long as you keep moving forward. Because that's what the sport is all about. And I think that, you know, for me, we had a hard time really letting go the life we live and while we navigated through this, this white sport. And so it was really, the sport really kind of honestly taught my whole team that like, hey, There's, we, we've been through a lot, but the important lesson here is that we keep pushing forward and that we can't do the work of eight, but we need eight people to do the work and we'll get there much faster. And that's what we learned in the sport of rowing and that's the lessons that we bring um to many communities as we start rowing programs all over the country.

• 42:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow. So tell me about your movie, the, it's a docu, it's a documentary, The Most Beautiful, A Most Beautiful Thing?

• 42:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's The Most Beautiful Thing. It's um, uh, narrated by Common, produced by Dwyane Wade, Mary Mazzio, and um, Night Wander.

• 42:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I guess the request for me to narrate it, that was, maybe I didn't get, get it yet. It's still in my box, in my inbox.

• 42:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, you was on, you was on the, yeah, you was on the, it was Morgan Freeman first.

• 42:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'll give you that. Gotta give you Morgan Freeman.

• 43:02Chuck Nice?

  I'll never forget the day that Andy Dufresne was forced to go in the water.

• 43:08Chuck Nice?

  Andy Dufresne was the best point man out.

• 43:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so, uh, so is it out? Where can we find it?

• 43:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, so you can find it on Amazon, uh, Prime, you can find it on Peacock and it's, it's honestly, it's our story from beginning to end, not just our story, but the story of our moms and, and the work that we're doing now in the city of Chicago through the sport of rowing.

• 43:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what you've done is-

• 43:33Gary O'Reilly?

  You make a comeback. Sorry Neil, didn't, in the movie, you make a comeback. You and the team dust off those oars and come back.

• 43:40Speaker 05

  Twenty years later.

• 43:41Gary O'Reilly?

  Why?

• 43:42Speaker 05

  Because our kids never seen us row and a parent-

• 43:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, no, that's not the reason. It's because someone invented Advil over that period of time.

• 43:54Speaker 05

  It was a lot of pain, a lot of crabs. It was painful, it was painful, but we, you know, we did it for the moms. They never got a chance to see us race because they work in doubles or they wasn't around and uh, this story really reached the world in a different way and so we wanted to put on a show for them and, and all the other uh, Chicago-

• 44:12Chuck Nice?

  Did it have an effect on the kids? Did it actually change their perception of you and the sport?

• 44:18Speaker 05

  Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, they, they needed to see someone like them that's out there pulling hard and, and, and overcome. We overcame, you know, we overcame the fear of water. Uh, we traveled so many states as young people and, and ninety percent, it was growing in the entrepreneurship team. So ninety percent of my teammates are entrepreneurs and started companies on the, uh, west side and south side of the street.

• 44:40Chuck Nice?

  Wow. So, Matt, did you guys ever do Dagvale when you were competing? Because now I'm from Philly and a lot of people don't know that Philly is a huge, huge rowing town, very quietly kept. If you're from Philly, you, you know the sport because every year, one of the biggest competitions takes place on the Schoolkill River and, uh, the city-

• 45:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In fact, the opening scene to Trading Places is rowers on that river in Philadelphia.

• 45:07Chuck Nice?

  Oh, wow.

• 45:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The opening scene. Good movie knowledge, you.

• 45:11Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. Very cool.

• 45:13Speaker 05

  And, uh, and a large part, a large part of our film was going to Philly and row, and row. That's, that was our first out of town trip was going to Philly. We spent a week there on the school and we rowed out of the Penn Boat House.

• 45:26Chuck Nice?

  Sweet, man. That's very, very cool. Very cool.

• 45:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But it's, so what you've done is you have turned rowing into a philosophy for life.

• 45:35Speaker 05

  Philosophy for life. Yep. The lessons of working together, pulling together, leaving the boat house better than you found it, leaving the day better than you found it, leaving the stroke better than you find it. Uh, you know, and I think the biggest lessons that philosophy is like, you know, you can be like Shaq, he would work on free throws for years and never got better. The one thing about rowing, you sit on a machine and you get stronger every time, right? You just get better. And so all those lessons that, uh, we learned from the sport of rowing, we use it today. And, and honestly, we, we're launching nine new programs, uh, rowing programs this year. Um, we have a lot of young kids of color who, who, who went through the, who's going to college this year to row. And, and, and we believe that the sport changed lives and it gives you an opportunity to really find peace in, in the water, if you, you know, for all.

• 46:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I, I liked your initial comment where rowing is non, it's competitive but non-combative. This is a very important distinction. And there is some trash talking in rowing, but the problem is you don't really have extra breath to do much talking.

• 46:42Chuck Nice?

  I would just love to hear Wheezy trash talk. Wheezy trash talk. Call that a stroke.

• 46:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so Arshay, we gotta land this plane, um, or dock this boat. What do you, give me some takeaway thoughts. You're a motivational speaker. Motivate us and our listeners, just in whatever way comes organically out of you, given your life experience.

• 47:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, I will say this, um, for me, the, the, the best lesson I learned in the sport was outside of the, um, the water, and that was to leave the boathouse better than you found it, even if you didn't make the mess, right? Because it leaves it, it leaves it easier for the next group that's coming in. And our coach would say it every day. And so my life has been, how do I leave the classroom? How do I leave this, this podcast? How do I leave my community better than I found it, even if I didn't make the mess? And, um, and, and that's what it's all about. And we go into schools and we leave them better than we found it. And we can control that. And, um, and that's what I leave you with.

• 47:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And if you extend that up to all of civilization, let the world be a little better for you having lived in it.

• 47:53Chuck Nice?

  But can I just add a caveat to that, Arshay?

• 47:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, you can't. Teacher's concluded. Beautiful words. And now what are you gonna do?

• 47:59Chuck Nice?

  I gotta add a caveat to that, because I think it's such a beautiful sentiment. Leave it better than you found it, even if you didn't make the mess. But go find that dude that made that mess.

• 48:12Chuck Nice?

  And let that mother something know.

• 48:14Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:16Chuck Nice?

  I'm not cleaning up after you no more, and I'm serious.

• 48:20Speaker 05

  I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it.

• 48:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Rowing's non-combative.

• 48:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right. We gotta end it there. So, Arshay, great to have you on this segment of StarTalk Sports Edition, Different Strokes. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, Chuck, always good to have you. Always a pleasure. And Gary, always good to have you. Arshay, keep it going, dude.

• 48:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, appreciate it.

• 48:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I, I others saw the documentary. I'm gonna see it tonight. And I'm gonna be all over it. And we're gonna, maybe we'll get you back on, um, we'll talk some more rowing. Because this is our first ever rowing show, and there's so much more to get into. But anyhow, a- as it is, I am Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. As always, keep looking up.