SotN #13 - SOBERING with Anthony Sassano (SushiSwap Founder DEFECTS, Farming 4 Gitcoin)

STATE OF THE NATION #13 - Tuesday, September 8th, 2020 Watch on the Bankless YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/c/bankless The State of the Bankless Nation is.... SOBERING! No, we haven't rewritten the laws of the universe, things are still the same... Follow Anthony on Twitter! https://twitter.com/sassal0x ----- GO BANKLESS WITH THESE SPONSOR TOOLS: 💸 UNSTOPPABLE DOMAINS https://bankless.cc/unstoppable - HUMAN READABLE NAMES FOR ETHEREUM AND CRYPTO ADDRESSES 🌈 ZAPPER - ULTIMATE HUB FOR DEFI http://bankless.cc/zapper - ZAP INTO DEFI 💳 MONOLITH - GET THE HOLY GRAIL OF BANKLESS VISA CARDS https://bankless.cc/monolith 💸 AMPLFORTH - MONETARY EXPERIMENT FOR BASE MONEY https://bankless.cc/AMPL-MINE ------ STATE OF THE NATION #13 - Tuesday, September 8, 2020 The State of the Bankless Nation is.... SOBERING! Special Guest... Anthony Sassano @sassal0x on Twitter TOPICS: 1) SushiSwap Founder dumping all his Sushi; defecting from the protocol 2) The newest wave of ETH 2 killers is here 3) Protocols directing funds to Gitcoin for Gitcoin Grants: BULLISH for ETHEREUM ANNOUNCEMENTS: 1) Aave Founder Stani on the Bankless Pod: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b76HL0jFctQ&t=938s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b76HL0jFctQ&t=938s 2) AMA with Loopring's Matt Finestone on THURSDAY 3) Tactic coming out on the Bankless Newsletter: How to get Yield SAFELY. Subscribe! https://bankless.substack.com/ We show: 1) Sushi Founder Market-Dumps Sushi https://twitter.com/spencernoon/status/1302220502728085504 2) Ameen Soleimani post-mortem twitter thread https://twitter.com/ameensol/status/1302395863709351936?s=20 3) Sushi Founder: "I'm a good guy" https://twitter.com/scott_lew_is/status/1302243578433990657?s=204 5) Kevin Owocki submits 1% YAM treasury to Gitcoin proposal https://twitter.com/owocki/status/1298032085945352192?s=20 6) Andre with the DUNK: https://twitter.com/AndreCronjeTech/status/1298621742240403456?s=20 7) David puts the final nail in the coffin https://medium.com/@TrustlessState/dont-be-stupid-fund-gitcoin-with-your-treasury-a177a3a0454c 8) BASED now giving Gitcoin 2%! https://twitter.com/Steven_McKie/status/1302710211640057856 --- ACTION ITEMS: 1) READ: Sushi's Sin of Betrayal: https://bankless.substack.com/p/sushis-sin-of-betrayal-market-monday 2) READ: How to use yEarn to maximize yield https://bankless.substack.com/p/how-to-leverage-yearn-to-maximize 3) Subscribe to Catch SOTN LIVE every Tuesday at 10am EST (2pm UTC) https://www.youtube.com/c/bankless ----- Don't stop at the video! Subscribe to the Bankless newsletter program http://bankless.substack.com/ Visit the official Bankless website for resources http://banklesshq.com/ Follow Bankless on Twitter https://twitter.com/BanklessHQ Follow Ryan on Twitter https://twitter.com/ryansadams Follow David on Twitter https://twitter.com/TrustlessState Follow DeFi Dad on Twitter https://twitter.com/DeFi_Dad ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time we may add links in this channel to products we use. We may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. We'll always disclose when this is the case.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, welcome everyone to episode 13, unlucky but also lucky episode of State of the Nation. Really excited to be here. David, how are you doing today, man?

• 0:19David Hoffman?

  Pretty good, pretty good. You know, there was a lot of fun times happening in the DeFi world. And so, you know, those, we had to like scale back how much fun we were having. And that seems like what happened in the last.

• 0:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I loved your tweet about that. I hope we get into that about the nightclub. So, all right, we're gonna, we're gonna get there, guys. So just for folks who are with us for the first time, or it's your handful of first times here, here's what we do. We talk about what's happening in the bankless nation. So that's DeFi, that's crypto. And we relate it to the big picture themes that we speak about on the Bankless Podcast and talk about on the Bankless Newsletter. And we hope to drop some insights and action items. And most shows, we have a special guest as well. And this is no exception. So we brought on Anthony Sacciano to talk a little bit about everything that is happening in the DeFi space.

• 1:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  So that's sushi, we're gonna cover, we're gonna cover Gitcoin grants, we're gonna cover some other things as well. Really excited to have Anthony on. This comes out every Tuesday, so you can watch it live. Some of you are watching this live on the Bankless YouTube channel, Tuesdays at 10 a.m. Eastern Time. You can also catch it on our podcast stream the very next day on Wednesday. So that's where we release it on YouTube and also on the podcast. Just a couple of announcements. David, that podcast episode that we just did with Stani from Ave, like, what did you think about that, man? I've like, that was like fire for me. I mean,

• 1:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Stani is a legit crypto native. He's the type of dude that's not going to exit scam his sushi, right?

• 2:01David Hoffman?

  No, that's exactly right. I think as like a case study for how founders in this world are different, that episode will stand the test of time. I think that there's going to be a lot of people that are interested in building something over the next two years, three years, five years in Ethereum. And I think they're going to listen to that episode to kind of like get a gist for what Vance said in his podcast, like, are you about that life? And as Danny, as a guy who is about that life and that life being building a crypto economic protocol, he's just an exemplar model for it. So fantastic episode.

• 2:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Absolutely. So that came out yesterday and that came out on Monday. So make sure you get caught up on that episode as well. It's a long one. People criticize our episodes because they're getting a little bit longer, David.

• 2:50David Hoffman?

  They're only getting longer.

• 2:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  I don't know. Can't stop, won't stop. It's good content, right? I mean.

• 2:55David Hoffman?

  I enjoy it.

• 2:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. As long as we're enjoying it, David, that's good. That's all we need. All right. We're also doing an AMA on Thursday with Matt Finestone from Loopring. So if you're curious about layer two and Gatsby, Loopring is a fantastic solution for that. So we're going to ask him all about how Ethereum scales. I hope that's an opportunity for the Bankless community to come in with their questions and ask Matt anything. We've also got the regular program going on, the Bankless newsletter, awesome tactic coming out today on how to get yield, but in a safer way. So make sure you're tuned into bankless.substack.com for the newsletter. David, before we get into the main show, I'm going to ask you the question we ask at every state of the nation and that's this.

• 3:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  What is the state of the nation this week, my friend?

• 3:45David Hoffman?

  The state of the nation is sobering. In any mania or any like just tulip fascination, any peak, there's this attitude that like the old laws don't apply. We're in this new paradigm and that's like a top signal, right? Like, and so this yield farm. The warming craze, the liquidity mining, the whole like, we found a new way to bootstrap a community. It's gonna be great. And this is just gonna be the thing that carries us off into success. Like, that's what we thought about without the ICOs too, right? And so this whole sushi drama was a very sobering reality check where we now realize that no, like, human nature still applies. Like, we didn't just recreate the fundamental laws of the universe. We are still

• 4:27David Hoffman?

  grounded by the laws of economics. So we're sobering up.

• 4:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  So a wise man on Twitter said something about like, it's like a nightclub when the lights flash on and like, everyone's like sweaty and gross. And you look around and you're like, oh, my God, what just happened? What were we doing?

• 4:44David Hoffman?

  2:00 AM in the nightclub. People were sloppy. People were gross. Yeah. And then the lights turned on. There's just sweat everywhere. And like, oh, you still have to get home somehow.

• 4:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, yeah. I'm getting that. I'm getting that visual. All right. Awesome. So that's what we're gonna talk about. So State of the Nation is sobering this week. And before we get Anthony on, before we dive into everything that's been going on with sushi and what that actually means, let's talk about our sponsors. So the first I want to tell you about is Unstoppable Domains. Your ETH address, like we've talked about many times on the show, is a bank account. It's a bankless bank account. A bank account essentially for internet natives. But one big problem is, it doesn't have a human readable name. So if I try to send David some ETH to his Ethereum

• 5:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  address, I have to plug in something like zero X E3BA, blah, blah, blah. We need domain names that are human readable, that we can plug in and wrap our ETH addresses in. How about a dot crypto domain name? You can get that at unstoppabledomains.com. They allow you to search for your blockchain domain name and easily launch websites on decentralized web technology like IPFS. They also allow you to manage existing domains. So if you have a dot ETH ENS domain, you can plug that into the unstoppabledomains.com manager and actually manage what address it routes to. It gives you some pretty cool options.

• 6:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  For also paying for the dot E domain. So websites have dot com, they have dot org, they have the domain name stuff figured out already. The crypto space needs to figure that out too, and Unstoppable Domains is helping. Go pick up a domain name for your Bankless Bank account at unstoppabledomains.com and register a domain now.

• 6:38David Hoffman?

  All right. So for those of you guys that went through the 2017 bull market, it was characterized by like you waking up, well, at least for me, I rolled off off my bed, pulled out my phone and refresh, refresh my blockfolio. Well, now lately I am going to Zapper and the reason why I like Zapper is because Zapper actually looks at my wallets on Ethereum, right? So Blockfolio doesn't, Blockfolio just like record, reports what you input it into it. So if you ever make a trade on Uniswap, you got to pull out your Blockfolio and make it, make it, make an edit. Zapper doesn't do that because Zapper uses actual real data from your actual input, inputted Ethereum wallets to give you a portfolio report of where all your money is. So not just the assets that you hold in your wallet,

• 7:23David Hoffman?

  but also the liquidity that you've provided to Uniswap, to Balancer, they even update it for the latest yield farm. Any sort of debt that you have, any sort of interest that you're accruing, it's got it all, it's got it all because it goes right for the data. And so really fantastic team at Zapper and you can also make transactions through the Zapper portal. It's not just a place to view your portfolio, but you can actually interact with DeFi at the zapper.fi website. They also have a fantastic tax plugin, right? And so if you are just trying to get your taxes done, you can press the tax button and then generates a tax report. So you can pay your taxes. So really a one stop shop for everything that was messy in the last bull run.

• 8:05David Hoffman?

  I'm really excited about this bull run largely because Zapper is going to make this, watching this bull run go a lot easier. So check them out at zapper.fi and you can plug in your Ethereum wallets and get that portfolio report. So check them out.

• 8:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. So David, let's bring on our special guest. This is Anthony Sassano. Anthony, it is so awesome to have you on, man. Are you there? We're, we're talking about sobriety in today's state of the nation. So we found the most Ethereum sober guest we could. We know you are, you're always sober, my friend, always have some good insights. How's it going, Anthony?

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Hey guys, thanks for having me on. So yes, I think I'm with you. It's it's been very sobering over the past few days, right? We went from the high of $480 on ETH to the to a low of like $310 or something. We kind of like erased all the gains we had made over like a month's time. And yeah, it wasn't it wasn't fun. But in hindsight, seeing all these crazy gains, these, you know, 10,000% APY on these kind of food Ponzi's or food games or like all these stuff happening, you kind of you look and you're like, I should have seen that as a top.

• 9:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, yeah. The only thing was missing was like the Uber guy asking about like, you know, where he could farm yams or something like that. That was the only top signal missing. Okay, but like, does this mean a bull market canceled, Anthony? Like, you wrote something really good in the Daily Quay this morning about that. What do you think?

• 9:37Speaker 02

  No, I actually think we're still on track. I think we're we're fine. I don't think this is going to lead to another kind of two-year bear market or anything like that. I think that it's just a way to reset the the market, right? People were getting over leveraged. People were getting too greedy. They were throwing money at, as I said, random things like food coins and things like that. So I think we needed this. We needed a reset. We needed a kind of mini deleveraging event. Yeah, yes, we probably followed the the kind of stock market as well in some way. But yeah, I don't think this is going to put us into another crypto bear market. That's just not what I'm seeing.

• 10:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, well, let's talk about some of the greed and some of the deleveraging here. Maybe maybe we could just start with sushi because that's kind of our main, I guess, our main course for for today's State of the Nation. Anthony, I think it would be super helpful because all this stuff happens quickly. You know, some people are like they were on vacation last week or, you know, they just haven't haven't been looking at DeFi every day. But like sushi is what? I don't know. It's like a week and a half old, not even? So if people missed that, can you talk about like what sushi is and kind of get us up to speed on some of the main events that have gone on? And why this is relevant and worth talking about now?

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, first of all, I think I'm still recovering from a bit of food poisoning from some bad sushi over the weekend. But yeah, you're right.

• 11:00David Hoffman?

  Is that a metaphor or is that real?

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Definitely a metaphor, man.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  But yeah, so basically, you said it, Ryan. It's about a week and a half old. Basically, what it is, is it's kind of like a clone of Uniswap, but with a with a token that claims to be community governed. So this kind of trend of community governed platforms has exploded since the YFI launch, the native token of the Urn protocol. And you know, everyone's trying to jump on this train and say, okay, we're like a fair launch protocol. You can come here, you can farm our token, and the community will govern everything. So obviously, Sushi Swap took advantage of this. They managed to get over $1 billion worth of TVL in their in their protocol. The funny thing is, though, is that the TVL was actually just Uniswap liquidity provider

• 11:51Speaker 02

  tokens. So their their value lock was still in Uniswap. But what they were going to do, and what they are still doing, is what I like to call a vampire attack on Uniswap, where they're going to basically take the liquidity and force migrate everyone who's staking their Uniswap LP tokens on Sushi Swap and and kind of change it to the Sushi Swap exchange, which is very sneaky. We haven't seen this done before and not at this scale either. But I think as well, it's worth mentioning that it's it's funny that we saw this play out over the first few days. There was a guy called Chef No Me, an anonymous person who set this up and everything. And everyone was like, oh, you know, this this is great.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  This is awesome. Like, this is something that can actually challenge Uniswap. You know, and it was really weird because it's like, this person's completely anonymous, like, had no rep before this. Like, why are we trusting them, right? And of course, they decided to, quote unquote, exit scam on the weekend.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  So you know, the farming that was going on, what ended up happening is like 10% of the sushi tokens that were being farmed went to a dev fund, which was solely controlled by this Chef Nomi person. And then over the weekend, they decided, well, I think I've built up enough capital here. I'm just going to sell this sushi on the market, which equated to about $15 million worth of ETH. And then, yeah, since then, they've transferred control of the protocol over to SBF or Sam Bankman Fried from FTX, the founder of FTX and Alameda Research. And he hasn't tweeted, you know, since that happened, like two or three days now, or he or she, I don't know who it is. I mean, P, if you believe the conspiracy.

• 13:31David Hoffman?

  The chef hasn't.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  No, sorry, sorry. The chef hasn't tweeted since transferring this ownership over. So, you know, I've been tweeting about it and alluding to it. There's so much like quote unquote psyops going on here. Like, I don't know if this was a grand plan between all these different parties, but there's just so much, so many coincidences that happen and so many things that happen in succession. It kind of feels like this is an attack on Uniswap, right? An attack on Ethereum and DeFi. And it could be a very successful one as well, because we've never seen a vampire attack on Uniswap, as I explained. So, I mean, it still has over $1 billion of value locked. The migration's going ahead in, I think, less than 40 hours, where literally everyone will be forced to migrate if they're still staking their liquidity provider tokens.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  So you have a choice. Obviously, you can remove the tokens. But, you know, why would they if they're still farming sushi? Sorry, if they're still farming sushi. And on top of that, Sam from FTX said that he's going to actually pay millions in sushi to people who stick through with the migration. So this is, yeah, this is crazy. Like, this is the craziest thing I've seen in DeFi probably ever.

• 14:41David Hoffman?

  I think the biggest indicator that this was going to happen was the combination of like the 10% dev fund with the anonymous founder, right? And I don't want to harp on anonymous founders, because this whole industry was born on anonymous founders, right? Like Satoshi was anonymous for a reason. And in this spirit of. What yield farming is, is trying to get a protocol out into the community. Having a, a non, uh, having an anonymous founder is really helpful in that regard because then it can just be transferred to the community. But then that 10% dev fund came in and I, I feel like, I mean, me included, I just overlooked it. It's like, yeah, you know, a dev fund.

• 15:19David Hoffman?

  Like in Ethereum, we want to fund our devs and so that's aligned with the Ethereum native too, or the Ethereum like ethos as well. Uh, but like, it just becomes really delicate and precarious. Like there's this narrative around like, we can just yield farm our way through VCs and we don't need VCs anymore. But then we ultimately like are gambling with like the, the altruism of these individuals or whether they are in it, in it for the right reasons or not. Uh, and, and that's kind of where like it all comes down to like human nature. Like I don't, I don't know the personal wealth of this sushi individual prior to farming sushi. I'm assuming he had a decent amount because he farmed a decent amount of sushi, but like he made 15 million dollars in seven days.

• 16:01David Hoffman?

  Like good luck not convincing someone to like dump, right? Like 15 million dollars is hard to argue with.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's funny though, because like I, I, I agree with you. I don't have anything against like anonymous founders or stuff like that. But the fact that the 10% dev fund had no vesting at all. Um, and you know, it was an anonymous founder that came out of nowhere. And we basically had to trust that they wouldn't sell. And I pretty much called it from like day one. I said, this dev fund kills this project for me. Like not just that, but I mean, the dev fund, the, the, the attack on Uniswap as well. It's like, you know, uh, I, it always looked like a, a direct attack. And, and then even the, the irony of it too, was that the chef was on Twitter calling out Hayden Adams, the founder of Uniswap, saying that, you know, he had everything.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  He had VC money. He had a nice salary and the chef had nothing. Well, now the chef has actually made more money from Uniswap basically than Hayden has made in, and Hayden created the damn thing. So it's, it's just, I mean, it's gross. And I really think that we need to kind of, as you said, it's a sobering event, right? But we really need to reflect on this and reflect on how fast we are to trust people in this industry.

• 17:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right. So I want to share this. I want to share this now famous tweet that's, that, um, Scott, Scott shared. And it was a statement that the chef made in, uh, Discord, right? Do you guys see that? This is the tweet. I think it's loading again, but, um, basically chef says, um, I'm a good guy.

• 17:24David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 17:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm not going to, oh, having the tweet. He's basically, "I'm not gonna dump on you. I'm a good guy."

• 17:34David Hoffman?

  Right?

• 17:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, basically saying, "No vesting commitment from me, but I'm not dumping. I'm a good guy. Trust me." This was on August 28th, at the very beginning of the sushi saga.

• 17:45David Hoffman?

  Right, and we just trusted it. And I think Anthony makes a good point, because it was a "attack on Uniswap." This wasn't a yield farm like other yield farms were, right? Like, it wasn't yams, it wasn't wifey, it didn't create something, it forked something. And it also forked something that was already, like, basically, community-owned at its core, right? Like, sure, there's VC ownership over Uniswap, but there's no VC tax on Uniswap users, right? And so, it was a very opportunistic, like, yield farm that just used the labor of the Uniswap team, which weren't taking a cut or a fee of any sort, and then forking in a token to generate this yield farm, and then adding a dev fund, right?

• 18:30David Hoffman?

  So, it actually is way worse than whatever VC components added to Uniswap.

• 18:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, I want to ask David, so you said you made the statement, "We just trusted it." I personally didn't just trust it. Like, I was like, so there was, I feel like there was a division of the DeFi community before

• 18:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  the chef turned out to exit scam, everyone. And then, there was a further division of the community, kind of, after. But I felt like, before, the division of the community, I'm gonna maybe just try to break it down into a few different component parts, but you guys add, kind of, parse your, like, this is just the pulse in the community. There were those that thought it was a direct attack on Uniswap, and thought that that was bad, right? Including Hayden Adams. He's like, "Look, guys, we spent, you know, the last two years building this thing, and here comes this 10-day-old Twitter account, and he's forking, you guys are just falling all over yourselves, thinking that this is the greatest thing ever, right?" So, there's people, there was a group that was super speculative.

• 19:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Didn't like the experiment from day one. I personally was not in that group, okay? But I understood the point. I understood the perspective. There was another group that was like, "Okay, well, this could be," and I think you used the phrase, David, before, "this could be like a shredder's cat thing," right? Like, this could totally be, and probably is, given the incentive play of the 10% dev fund, a, an exit scam in process, right? Or the chef could turn out to be altruistic and like, be like, "Okay, I made a faulty design decision with this 10% and I'm allocating the 10%, not to me, but to this, you know, group of governors." Yeah, and, and restore the credible neutrality and, you know, and I thought, "Well, either it's a 10, 15, 20% chance of that happening, the 80% chance that it wouldn't."

• 20:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  But, okay, the experiment is, is fine. The experiment is okay, right? Because we want to have experiments and, um, you know, that's how Uniswap sharpens its sword and gets better. That was probably the camp I was in, where I was like, super skeptical, but also respected the experiment. And then there was another camp, a third camp, that was just like, "Oh, my God, like, we're worshiping Chef Nami. This is the second coming. This is everything that Uniswap should have been. There's no chance he would scam us. He is a good guy. He's saying he's a good guy. We believe he's a good guy."

• 20:51David Hoffman?

  Farm, farm, farm, farm.

• 20:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Farm, farm, farm, farm. Like, and that, that's a group in DeFi I did not identify with at all. And I was kind of annoyed about because it's just like, guys, we talk about, "Why are you here in crypto? Why are you here in DeFi? To build trustless systems." And the very first thing you're doing is you're trusting a 10-day-old Twitter account and all the psyops, as Anthony mentioned, that could, could be going into that. Like, we have no idea, you know, who's behind, who's actually behind this project. And you're so ready to give them trust. That's not what this space is about. Be ultra speculative, like, be skeptical. Put on your Bitcoiner hat again, right? Like, verify. So that, that was a group I did not identify with at all and ended up being kind of frustrated with.

• 21:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  I don't know. What do you guys think? Like, do you think those were the groups? And like, which, which group did you misidentify with?

• 21:41Speaker 02

  That those are definitely the groups and I definitely fall into the second group. Was extremely skeptical of it from day one. I didn't actually know about the 10% dev fund until like the second day or something. And that's when my skepticism went like really like high. I was like, okay, there's a dev fund. There's no vesting. You know, I've been in the space since early 2017. I know what that looks like with the ICO saga, right? You're just gonna, you're just gonna get like people. I mean, why wouldn't you, right? Why wouldn't you dump if you've made 15 million dollars in a week off the, off a fork? Right? Like, come on. I mean, and you know, the, the, I was thinking about it from a legal perspective. What, how can someone actually go after this person? Like, for one, we don't know who it is, right? Two, they didn't actually do anything except a few comments about saying they weren't gonna dump, right?

• 22:27Speaker 02

  But there was, you know, they didn't take any money from anyone, right? It was just, it was coming out of the, the, um, the funds that were being distributed via the, the smart contracts. So I don't know what legal leg you would have to stand on going after this person. So they probably thought, well, why wouldn't I do this? 15 million dollars? Like, what?

• 22:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, no skin in the game.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's just, it's, it's, it's insane. And it was insane to me. The most insane thing is that third camp. That group of people that, I mean, I can respect the profit maximalists, right? The ones who just farm these things, don't care about any of the technology, whatever. I just wanna make money.

• 23:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  You can do you, right? I, I made money off sushi swap as well. Like, I'm not innocent here from a kind of farming perspective. But people were saying things like, oh, it should kill Uniswap because Uniswap is VC owned and, you know, it should do this, it should do that. Was, was gross to me. And I'm, and I'm, I'm all for healthy competition and, and pushing innovation forward and, you know, not turning something like Uniswap into a quote unquote monopoly. But I, I just think that, you know, these, these things that are, are basically a tax should be called out. And should be, you know, there should be a light shown on it, especially when there's a central party benefiting from it to the tune of millions of dollars off of someone else's work. Like, and that's just gonna happen because that's the space marine. It's open source. Everything's out there. I mean, most things are open source.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Some things are actually, you know, proprietary. And if you kind of fork it, there could be legal risks there. But for mo- for the most part, it's open source, right? We saw, I mean, Tron is literally built off of Ethereum, right? The original Ethereum J client was forked to create Tron. We can't stop it, but we can call it out and we can be honest with ourselves about it.

• 24:05David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I wrote about this in the Market Monday piece, a little snippet of what you just mentioned, Anthony, where like the sushi guy didn't actually do, break anything, like the protocol wasn't exploited, there wasn't a bug, like it debatably wasn't an exit scam. And so like the real crime was that like the sushi founder defected from the community, right? Like he created this incentivization and this narrative that we're going to like do this community owned Uniswap and you're going to get rewarded for yield farming, same playbook as all the other farms. And then you're also going to get rewarding for supplying liquidity to the token, same playbook as all the other farms. And then once there

• 24:48David Hoffman?

  was a ton of liquidity, the guy dumped because he created the liquidity to dump on them, right? And so it was a massive defection from the community because like, and like, I think it's also worth having a conversation, maybe not, maybe today is not the right spot, but like Bitcoin was the original yield farm, right? Like Bitcoin mining was the biggest community growth operation ever. And it discovered yield farming before we named it yield farming, right? And the whole, the reason why Bitcoin is so successful is that created a community that like signals their, their lack of defection, their cooperation with everyone else. And that's why you see Bitcoiners taking screenshots of their Cash App purchases and like signaling it on Twitter. It's like, yo, just bought like 500,000 sat,

• 25:33David Hoffman?

  never selling. And then that's their deal. That's their like, that's their in-group like signal. And, and that was what all, that is what all yield farms aspire to become, right? And like, and it's really fragile in the early days, in the first like seven days, it's the most fragile times of any community ever. So like, imagine if like Bitcoin went to, I don't know what the market cap of sushi was, but like if Bitcoin went to like a billion and a half dollars or whatever in the first like 10 days, and then Satoshi was like, press the sell button, like that universe doesn't exist because it couldn't have been. But that's basically what happened. And Bitcoin probably wouldn't have worked out if Satoshi had done that, right? And so every single farm that ever comes up ever is about a game of trying to

• 26:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Gather enough community stewards and community stakeholders to all agree to the social contract of not defecting, right? And that's what the sushi swap founder, that was his sin. Like, he didn't break any laws, he didn't commit any fraud, he sinned by defection. He defected from this community. And like, it's also good fucking point, like, he could have not done that, and it would put his life would be largely the same, if not better, because that was a cool community. Like, again, it was Schrödinger's cat of a farm. Like, it could have been like, one of the coolest things ever, and he decided to go for fifteen million dollars in ETH.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  And that's why I kind of like, think there's, I guess I say the word a lot now, these days, but like a psyops angle here, where things just played out in such a weird kind of like timeline, like, that I just can't help but think that there was like, this this kind of loose plan from the beginning, right? And maybe they had this plan and it got way ahead of what they thought it would. But maybe they didn't think, oh, we're gonna get over a billion dollars of TBL in our protocol within a week. Like, they probably didn't, right? That's, that's actually unheard of for, for projects until the farming stuff came along, right? So maybe they had this loose plan where they're like, okay, this is how we attack Uniswap. This is how we get liquidity.

• 27:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  So Anthony, can we go into detail on that? Because I think that psyops angle is super interesting. And Ethereum DeFi community, like, we have to be wise, right? Like, we have to be like serpents about this. We have to like, be like Bitcoiners, who are, you know, ready for someone to screw them over at every single opportunity. That, that doesn't mean be completely close minded, but we cannot be naive, because I think the aftermath of this is even more interesting. Like, the events that, and the information that that kind of came out after the, the club lights went on and everyone looked sweaty and gross, as Dave said, right? So.

• 28:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Not a huge, not a huge surprise to many of us that the anonymous founder with zero skin in the game decided to take 15 million and leave the community high and dry. No reputational risk, not a huge surprise. But what was somewhat interesting is the way it played out after that. So Anthony, can you talk about like kind of some of the events, right? So just recap us. So sushi chef Nami takes, takes his, her money leaves, right? And then it seemed like this, this other figure, SBF gets involved from FTX exchange and he kind of like becomes the hero of sushi and

• 28:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  there's that whole angle. And then there's some evidence possibly that the identity of the sushi chef is actually somebody who is maybe closely associated with Sam. Like, tell us about this craziness because that to me lends credence to this whole notion, this whole possibility. Again, it's all possibilities, probabilities, that this whole sushi thing could have been a, an attack, a psy ops attack against, against DeFi and a swap of Ethereum from the very beginning. So tell us those events and like that angle of things.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So I think, just want to kind of like, before I jump into it, I do want to say that I think a lot of people, when they hear these things and they hear these theories, they think that they're just conspiracies, right? Because they're, they're so, so hard to believe sometimes, or they don't believe that someone can be this kind of like scheming, right? And they, they don't believe that someone could do this. But if you spend enough time in the community and you watch things very closely and you pay attention to people's motivations and what actually drives them to do certain things, then you can spot these things pretty easily. So with the sushi swap thing, my grand theory is that this was all pretty much planned, as I said, but it got out of control and, and you know, it got way bigger than what, what they thought it would be. So.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  I guess basically with the chef being anonymous, he could do whatever he wants. So during the week, he built up this this really fierce community because that's the first thing you'd want to do, right? You'd want to build up this army of people to to defend your protocol against anything. So they went out onto Twitter straight away and they started attacking Uniswap, right? And maybe not attacking directly, but started saying things like, you know, this is going to beat Uniswap because one, they're part of a new community and two, they're getting money from it too. Like they're incentivized to get their sushi price, the sushi price to go up, right? For this thing to continue. So that's the first thing I would do if I was trying to to take down kind of like Uniswap. You need the community. So once you have the community behind you, you know, the rewards are are good enough because people are hearing about sushi, the price is good. So the APY goes up. More TVL gets locked up, right?

• 30:55Speaker 02

  Then the theory of this thing could kill Uniswap starts to really take off and you start to really see this traction play out. So, you know, that succeeded, obviously, and they got a lot of TVL. Um, and it lent credit to those theories uh from from people. And then, you know, it continued on, but then at some point, and for some reason, Chef Nomi decided he would just dump his sushi, right? After building up this community, he thought the best course of action was to dump and maybe they wanted the money, right? But I don't believe it's as simple as that. I, and this is, this is going maybe a little bit deep into the rabbit hole here, here, but I do think that this was done on purpose, right? What you do is you kill the protocol, right? Or you kill the community or you put a wedge in the community, you defect, as David said.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  You, you, you make the community think that all hope is lost, right? The price dumps, price goes to like a dollar or something from from a high of like $10. It was at like $4, I think, before this happened, but it goes to the dollar. And then the next day, the white knight comes in, right? Sam comes in, Sam comes in and says, I'll help sushi, right?

• 31:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  Who is Sam? Tell us who Sam is.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Sam, sorry, Sam Bankman-Fried from from FTX, CEO of FTX, which is a pretty large crypto exchange. Um, if I was to say like what I'd compare it to is probably Binance in terms of like how how fast they move through things and what they want to do. Um, Sam also works closely with uh Solana, uh he's building a decentralized exchange on there called Serum. So it's kind of like. What CZ tried to do with Binance, with like the Binance chain and everything, but Sam's playing it a bit differently. I think Sam has identified the fact that the Ethereum community can be naive and can, and he wants to go after that, right? And he wants to take DeFi.

• 32:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, and Sam was like involved, you know, as a participant in sushi at the beginning, right?

• 32:44Speaker 02

  On the, on the exchange and they were the biggest farmer of it because they have a lot of money and they get really involved with DeFi. So he's probably the largest sushi holder as well. And, and yeah, he, yeah, he mean, he's most incentivized to see this thing continue too, right? So there's that angle as well. But the way I viewed it was just like, he just saw this, maybe it wasn't a grand plan, but he saw this opportunity where he was like, okay, I can come in and be the white knight now. So what ended up happening was someone anonymously on Discord, so this is another thing, someone on the Discord anonymously said, um, and he actually had the name like SBF, right, on, on the Discord. It wasn't, it was a fake SBF, but he had that. And he said, give me control of the protocol or something like that. And then everyone's like, oh, this is a fake SPF.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  But then people are like, well, why don't you just like tweet about it or something? And then I think Sam tweeted about it and he's just like, here's my address. If you want to pass kind of the ownership to me. And then Chef Nomi's like, okay, here you go. And he, he basically passed the ownership of the protocol to SBF. He, I think he open sourced like the front end, put it on GitHub or whatever. That was like one of his last tweets. Um, and then he vanished, basically. He's like Kaiser Soze, right? Just gone. And then Sam now has control of the protocol. He's setting up like a multi-sig thing where people can, there's going to be a bunch of signers on there. Um, and he's doing the migration as well. So that vampire attack I, I talked about. And now everyone's like, oh, well, Sam saved sushi swap. This is still good. The community is still fine. This is our new white knight.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  And Chef Nomi gets away, as I said, scot-free. He gets away with this money. Who knows who he is, who knows, you know, whatever he is. And I think I I need to basically explain the theories around who he is as well. Um, I know I'm going on long here, but this is this story is crazy. So basically, um, once this happened, obviously people are gonna try and identify this person, right? Like, who is this person? Can we identify them? Can we actually hold them accountable? So they basically went out there and discovered a bunch of different uh things and a bunch of different evidence about the the CTO of Band Protocol being linked to uh Chef Nomi. Uh, there was things like the um, the domain name for Band Protocol and uh, sorry, the domain for Band Protocol and

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Sushi Swap was on the same hosting provider, and they were the only two crypto-related things on there. Um, so that was like one piece of evidence. There was evidence that uh, the the Band Protocol CTO liked uh, like Hearthstone and built things for Hearthstone, and Chef Nomi is a Hearthstone character. Um, which was, I think, more circumstantial than than hard evidence. But then there was a bunch of other evidence as well. Then someone came out and said that Sam and the CTO of Band Protocol actually went to school together, like uh, like college together or whatever. Um, I I haven't fact-checked this all myself.

• 35:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  FTX was one of the first exchanges to list sushi, is that correct?

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Yes, but that could also be because they were the biggest farmers of it too, right? So, you know.

• 35:37David Hoffman?

  They were also one of the biggest farmers of it too.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  Ri- right, but that's the thing, there's all these things happening, and this is why I kind of like go in my mind, I'm just like, it's just i- it's just too many coincidences to be, you know, uh, to be not like a a like this kind of plan. And maybe it wasn't a plan from the start, maybe Sam saw the opportunity and was just like DMing Chef, the Chef Nomi person, and was like, okay, how about we do this, right? Um, you know, or this is how.

• 36:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  And there's a, there's another wrinkle in this too, right? So uh, Sam comes in, white knight, I'm gonna take over Multi-Sig, I'm gonna take over the protocol and restore it to its former glory, right? Price gets a bump a little bit, but also submits a a proposal to um migrate some of the sushi protocol, or maybe the entire sushi protocol, to this new uh Ethereum killer, I guess? This new decentralized exchange, quotes, air quotes, as as you mentioned, called Serum, right? Which he is primarily backing and building. Is that another angle of this, like?

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 36:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  He's trying to seed liquidity for his Serum exchange?

• 36:47Speaker 02

  That was proposed during like the week as well. Um, but yeah, it's just another thing, right? There was, they were so heavily involved with Sushi Swap from the very beginning, right? That it's just, it's, there's too ma- too many things linking um them all together, right? There's, there's too many coincidences. I just, yeah, I mean, and from what I know of the people involved, right? And, and things going on like this does not surprise me at all that they would act in this way for their motivations, right? Um, based on what I believe their motivations to be, uh, especially if you're building a competitor DEX, right? Or a decentralized exchange to an Ethereum decentralized exchange, which he is, right? Sam is, um, and Serum is being advertised as basically like this grandiose thing.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  It can scale, you know, this cheap fees, whatever, right? And they're, of course, they're ignoring the, the fact that it's pretty much centralized, right?

• 37:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's the, it's the Binance chain of 2020, basically.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's just, there's so many things linking it together that I think that it, at this point, like calling it a conspiracy theory is just like not doing it any justice. And yeah, yeah.

• 37:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so we talked about the division in the DeFi Ethereum community pre, right? Uh, Sushi's chef no me exit scam, right? But how about post? It seems to me, and I haven't dug into this, but my sense is like now a larger number of DeFi, they're like, ah, I see. I see what's going on, right? This is, you know, this was possibly a plan from the beginning. This is a total ripoff. This is not the protocol we thought it was. You know, others in the, in, in the camp who kind of knew it all, all along are saying basically, yeah, we told you so. But there are some in DeFi who are kind of celebrating Serum and Sam uh coming in and saving uh Sushi.

• 38:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  And unlike, and then hitching themselves to that train. Is that kind of what you're seeing? Are there still these two camps?

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I I I'm actually really happy that after this happened, a lot of the people in the Ethereum community that maybe were either on the fence or supporting Sushi Swap kind of backtracked on their support and and kind of like discovered what had happened. But yeah, there there seems to be a vocal kind of community that are, you know, uh, that like this new serum thing that that that's been built. They like the fact that it's going to migrate to other chains. They they call it like, they basically say, oh, you know, if Ethereum maximalists don't like this, then they're just like, you know, they're they're being like Bitcoin maximalists and stuff like that. Um.

• 39:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Are you, sir? Are you an Ethereum maximalist, sir?

• 39:19Speaker 02

  I mean, oh, God, I've had this. I've I've talked about this so many times before because people always ask me this, but I mean, I'm I'm I'm I guess I'm an Ethereum maximalist to the point that everything's happening on Ethereum and it and it aligns most with the values that I have, right? And what I want to see kind of happen in in the world and in the in this space in particular, something like, and not just not to pick on any of the other kind of chains, but something like Solana does not appeal to what I want to see. Um, something like EOS does not appeal to what I want to see. The other chains don't appeal to it. Plus, they have like little to no adoption. So it's just boring, right? Like, I'm a I'm a fun maximalist. I'm a let's do cool shit maximalist, you know? Um.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  So but at the same time, I do think that a lot of these competitors have to attack Ethereum, right? They have to come at us from all angles. Because if they don't, they're not going to get any adoption, right? Um, you know, DeFi is the biggest uh, thing that you can do with a blockchain in my mind, like finance or decentralized finance, whatever, is the is the biggest TAM, total addressable market. The other stuff like, you know, NFTs and DAOs and stuff are cool, but they still fall into the DeFi umbrella in my eyes. So you know, if you want DeFi on your chain, what better way to do it than to vampire attack the biggest decentralized exchange on Ethereum? And fool the community at the same time, right? To help you do it.

• 40:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's genius.

• 40:38David Hoffman?

  Okay, so we just gave some very skeptical criticisms of this new sushi, which is the same sushi, but now under new management. And like, so we're still skeptical of this. However, we're still back into the world of like Schrodinger's farm, right? Like, it still could be the sushi that everyone wanted it to be. Like, that is still in the cards, right? And Ameen Soleimani put out a really good thread. And like, Ameen Soleimani is, he's an interesting guy. And the reason why he's interesting is he's an Ethereum, he believes in Ethereum, he likes Ethereum, like his company's built on Ethereum. But he often thinks like a Bitcoiner, right? Like, he thinks very adversarially, which is a quality that most Ethereum's don't tend to have.

• 41:23David Hoffman?

  And so he put out this thread, great thread, definitely worth reading. And I think, I think the best tweet, best two tweets is talking about how like, yield farming is a zero-sum casino. Yeah, there we go. And the farmers that are farming the tokens and selling them aren't necessarily like part of the community, right? It's the community are the people that, and he equated this to like a party, right? In the same way that I consider, I equated like yield farming to like this club that we're all at at 2:00 in the morning, and then the lights turn on. The, the real community are the people that are there the next morning after the party is over and they help clean up the mess, right? And so like, now we're in this, like, back into this world where like, we don't know if sushi is going to be a thing or not,

• 42:05David Hoffman?

  but it's up to the community to make it so, right? It's if there's enough of the community left to help clean up the mess and then rebuild for the next party, then sushi is alive and well, and I'm bullish. If there's not enough of those community members, then I'm bearish. But it's really, it's in, it's in the community's hands at this point, because, and that's what farms should be from day one. And that was the red flag about this farm was that it wasn't that. But I, I think there's, there's definitely plenty of universes out there where sushi fulfills its original vision.

• 42:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I I think that, you know, that that house party analogy is is also like, like you could add this to it. It's it's almost like the dude who threw the house party also went through everyone's wallets. You know, while the court, the coats were in the upstairs room and stole their money.

• 42:57David Hoffman?

  Collected everyone's car keys.

• 42:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  Collected their car keys and like just left, right? And he was, he was like the biggest party animal too, and he was responsible for like three quarters of the mess. And now you're asking. It wasn't his house. And now you're asking the community to go clean up after his mess, right? And that.

• 43:16David Hoffman?

  Tough ask.

• 43:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Tough ask. It's a tough ask. That's why I totally, like, I totally agree with what you're saying. Like, is it possible? Yeah. But did the probability just drop from like a 10% to like a point 01%? Yeah, like maybe, right? Because that's a, that's a hard way to start your community if you like, just, you know, kind of screw them over.

• 43:36David Hoffman?

  I won't necessarily get behind those numbers, but I do agree in the the drop in probability. Yeah.

• 43:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. And at some, at some point, right? That like this is, this is where you can bet, you can make your bets, right? So at some point, the price of sushi either drops to so low that you're like, you know what? The pro, I think it's this probability, whereas maybe I'm more bearish on sushi. I think it's this probability. You could choose to bet on it by purchasing it, right? That's the, that's the fun part about this, uh, this, uh, mini game that we're in, I guess.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  I, I, I, yeah, I mean, I have to give credit to the the players of the game. They seem to have played this very nicely. You know, Sam is an interesting character. I have, you know, I've known about him for a while and I followed his movements in the community because he came, he's kind of newer to the community. I think FTX only started in 2019 and he started being public over the last few months. So I've been paying attention to like this, the stuff that they're doing, they're doing. This kind of like fits in from kind of what I've seen. He's a very smart guy, like extremely smart. And, you know, if I had to characterize him, I'd say that he's like a very smart version of CZ. I always thought CZ was like, always missed the mark, right? He missed the mark with Binance Chain, right?

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Understand it. He didn't. He didn't do any of these kind of like things within Ethereum with DeFi. He didn't try to ally with the community. He was always outside of the community, whereas Sam's a bit like much smarter about it and he's allying with the Ethereum community. While doing these things like um to basically draw liquidity from DeFi onto his own platform. So, you know. I mean, that's not a conspiracy. That's just what's happening, right? He has a platform that competes with Ethereum. He wants liquidity. Like that's that's a fact, right? It's not something that you have to go crazy making up uh stories in your head about.

• 45:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so I think also what you're saying is like, we probably haven't seen the last of SPF, certainly, right?

• 45:25Speaker 02

  I mean, I think it's gonna be a presence.

• 45:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  And these sorts of attacks, these sorts of attacks, like, so somebody uh one time compared like um Ethereum to some of the Hogwarts houses, right? And like Ethereum's are a bit more like Hufflepuffs, right? They're just like, oh, yeah, everyone's well intentioned, you know, sounds good. When uh tha- that kind of mindset is very susceptible susceptible to Slytherin type attack, right? That's why, by the way, David, that's why I love Amin, because like Amin is like, I think like Slytherin, right? And I'll sometimes I'll use my powers for good.

• 45:59David Hoffman?

  Slytherin in the best of ways, right?

• 46:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  We we need people like that in the community to call it out, because a lot of people, you know, can't call it out due to different circumstances, right? Depends, you know, there's a lot of different things going on in the industry where everyone's connected, right? And you have professional connections. Amin seems to not like, maybe not not not care, but maybe he just is like, I'm just gonna tell it like it is, right?

• 46:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, he doesn't give an ask.

• 46:24David Hoffman?

  That's his deal.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and I I really re- really respect that. Like, as you said, David, he's an interesting character, but um I really respect the fact that he he calls out things, calls a spade a spade, basically.

• 46:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  What do you guys think of Solana? So what is?

• 46:38David Hoffman?

  What's what's a Solana?

• 46:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  What?

• 46:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Do you know what Solana is, David?

• 46:43David Hoffman?

  I know, I I know it's like the newest Ethereum killer.

• 46:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, do you have, anyone have a take on it? What's your take, Anthony?

• 46:50Speaker 02

  It's like EOS 2.0 in my eyes. It it has the similar architecture from what I've seen in terms of. Um, you know, delegated staking and things like that. It's got kind of the same players involved. It's it's doing the the same thing where it's claiming to be like.

• 47:03David Hoffman?

  Same VCs backing it.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, like infinitely scalable, like low cost, right? We're gonna do all these amazing stuff and they're never talking about the trade offs, of course.

• 47:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  And the trade off is basically that the big beefy validators kind of have to live in a data center somewhere, can't be run on consumer hardware, so an average person can't run it. Is that sort of the main trade off?

• 47:22David Hoffman?

  VC funded.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, most of the tokens are held by, yeah, VCs and, you know, they are the ones who do the validating and things like that and have most of the stake in the validation. So, yeah, you're right. And that's why it reminds me of EOS, right? Because EOS has to run on beefy hardware too, right? And that basically turned into a cartel because it's just, you know, it centralizes, right? Because of scale. But, yeah, I mean, if you can't run the kind of like software on your own kind of PC, then I just don't see the point. I mean, it's kind of like, why not just use a database, right? Why do you need to use this beefy thing that is pretty much like just as centralized as a database? Like, I guess like a normal database on like AWS, right? It's like

• 48:07Speaker 02

  a bunch of companies getting together to run the software and like signing things with like some keys. But they can be compelled to do things, right? Like, you know, if they wanted, it doesn't have to be a malicious thing either. It can be just like government saying, well, you need to remove this off Solana. And it's like, we know you can because you can basically get all these people in a room and do it, right? So, and like, no one can stop you. And, yeah, I mean, there's so many different risks here and different things that people just gloss over when discussing these things. That it just reminds me of EOS. Like, if anyone was around in 2017.

• 48:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  It does. It feels so much like we've seen this, we've seen this story already play out, even down to David, as you said, the same VCs.

• 48:51David Hoffman?

  Kyle Simonian, anything that multi-coin capital touches, really, they really just want to try and eat Ethereum's lunch and it's just not going well for them.

• 48:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know, in the, in the 2017, was it 2017 or was it 2018 when EOS launched?

• 49:04David Hoffman?

  2017, well, 2018 when it launched, when the token was out in 2017.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, they did that year-long token sale where you could trade it at the same time as the token.

• 49:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  I remember at the time, like, um, they were definitely putting out some like pieces that were just like Ethereum is dead. This is the future. Ethereum can't scale. See crypto kitties. Now EOS, right? And not, I tell, I, and I remember reading long reports, listening to podcasts and like being like, what am I missing? Is there something here that I'm not seeing? Maybe I'm the idiot. Maybe I'm the fool. But like, fast forward six months later, nine months later, a year later, those same VCs had dumped all of their EOS. Like, a- and we're, and we're openly telling people that it would never work.

• 49:49David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 49:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  And just incredibly, uh.

• 49:52David Hoffman?

  Yeah, Kyle from MultiCoin has openly said that like they made a mistake on EOS. That's like a public thing that they talk about.

• 49:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  But I wonder if that was a mistake. I don't, you know, I haven't seen multi, like, they probably made a lot of money on that mistake, right?

• 50:05Speaker 02

  That's the, that's the thing about the, about a lot of this stuff is that you can be very, very wrong, but you can still make a lot of money being wrong, right? Um, it's because of the fact that these things are traded like, like crypto. We know, we all know how crypto is traded. Um.

• 50:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  I also feel, I also feel open to these things as layer twos too. That's why I don't want to like, you know, crap all over, uh, Solana or Serum. Like, if it's a layer two, I don't care as much, right? I mean, I, uh, and by that, I mean, like, um, you know, uh, Coinbase listing ETH pairs and doing things with ETH, right? That's completely centralized, right? But that acts as a side chain to Ethereum. And if gas fees are too high, you can do things in Coinbase. You can onboard Fiat. If Solana is going to be that kind of a companion to ETH, then, you know, it's, it's more symbiotic. Uh, it's not, it's not taking away from. The the whole kind of bankless idea of everyone has self sovereign money.

• 51:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  But if it's trying to replace, if you're trying to replace Ethereum with a banker coin. I mean, like, why not? I I'm fine with the SWIFT system and Fiat, right? At least like, I mean, that's more distributed than what something like Solana is. So I guess I I I find it hard to articulate because I don't so much have a problem with these things as like side chains or layer twos. What I have a problem is like with the idea that they're going to come in and replace the credible settlement layer of some neutrality of something like Ethereum.

• 51:32Speaker 02

  Um, yeah.

• 51:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  I don't want to see that.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's that's what I find it's it's really the the gaslighting and the and the misleading marketing. Right where it's basically, as you said, Ryan, like, what am I missing? Right? It it's basically putting this idea in people's heads that they must be missing something. Right? They have people telling them that that Solana or any other other thing is like centralized. You know, it doesn't work. Um, you know, it's not going to be Ethereum. And then you have the companies building these things, saying that we're going to kill Ethereum. Right? We're scalable, we're decentralized. So who do you believe as especially as a newcomer? You you're just getting hit from all sides by people that have obviously vested interest in different things.

• 52:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  And as a newcomer, you're seeing these gas prices and you're like, oh, OK, they have a point.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's it's it's it's it's unfortunate what these what these are like, I guess, quote unquote, competitors will do. But it makes sense, right? If you're a if you're a competitor, you're going to bend the truth, right? You're going to mislead people and and try to try to get market share. But um, yeah, I mean, not to say that some in the Ethereum community don't do the same thing, right? Don't exaggerate things like we all exaggerate. But I I I do think I agree with you as well about these things being like a side chain to Ethereum. That's probably inevitably inevitably going to happen anyway. Um, but we'll have to see. Yeah, I don't think they're going to kill Ethereum, that's for sure.

• 52:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, all right. Well, Anthony, do you have some time to stick around? We're going to talk about a few other topics, or do you have to run? That's probably late where you are.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  I, yeah, I think I have to run. It's 1 a.m. here.

• 53:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, my God, then get some sleep, my friend.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  No, no, it's fine. It's fine. I'll stay up for the state of the nation for sure, anytime.

• 53:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, we appreciate it. Well, Dave and I are going to cover a couple of other topics, but it's been great to have you. Thanks so much for shedding some light on what's going on in the space.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Thank you for having me and good luck with the rest of the podcast. Thanks, guys.

• 53:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. Appreciate it. Thanks, Anthony.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Bye.

• 53:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, that was good. Dave, we should talk about our sponsors.

• 53:29David Hoffman?

  Absolutely.

• 53:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Do you want to start with Ampleforth?

• 53:32David Hoffman?

  Yeah, Ampleforth, father of modern rebasing. So if you guys have heard about this new rebasing mechanism, it came from Ampleforth. Ampleforth is this very interesting monetary experiment, right? So it wants to be a base money on Ethereum that functions or operates differently than typical base monies that you would be expected to. And the whole purpose of this is to generate like new and novel and uncorrelated like economic outputs than from the typical assets you see on Ethereum. Because they're all, as we have seen in the last like, you know, five days of price appreciation, they're all pretty correlated, right? So Ampleforth is an attempt to be an uncorrelated M zero money on Ethereum.

• 54:13David Hoffman?

  And the way that it's different, the way that it's unique is like, it's very similar to Bitcoin in the sense that it's got a non-dilutive supply. But in the way that it's extremely the opposite or the inverse of Bitcoin is that instead of having an inelastic supply like Bitcoin has, where therefore if any demand to Bitcoin consumes that supply, price goes up. That's how Bitcoin works. Ampleforth is the opposite, where Ampleforth tokens track $20.19 over time. So one Ampleforth token is supposed to track $1.09 of a penny. And if the price goes over that for Ampleforth, a rebase happens. And that mints new Ampleforth to bring the price down.

• 54:55David Hoffman?

  And so you will find the amount of Ampleforth in your wallet going up and down over time. Time automatically in order to track twenty nineteen dollars, right? Uh, and so it's just swapping those two things and and generating new economic behaviors as a result. They have a yield farming liquidity mining mechanism which you which they call the geyser. You can find out more about ample forth at ampleforth.org, which is also where you can find the geyser, where you can deposit ether and ampleforth tokens to Uniswap to get a little bit extra ampleforth tokens. So check them out.

• 55:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Awesome. Also want to tell you about Monolith. Super excited about everything that Monolith is doing these days. It's a way to go fully bankless, but in the real world where you can actually spend your crypto on real things. So Monolith is a Visa card, but it's more than that. It's an entire DeFi account. So it wraps your Ethereum address in a Visa card, a bankless Visa card, but it also closes the loop from Fiat to DeFi. So now you can onboard Fiat to die on Monolith with zero fees. You can then convert that die to a die, which is AVE's version of die, which is an interest-bearing savings account. Again, no fees.

• 56:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  And then you can take the interest that you generate and actually spend it in the real world. Go buy a coffee, go buy some Starbucks. This is really the closest thing to the holy grail of bankless crypto Visa cards that I've seen. And what you need to do is go download the app at monolith.xyz to get started. This is primarily for our European listeners because it works in Europe, but they are coming to North America soon and we will be the first to tell you when they do. What they'll do after you order your Visa card is ship you a beautiful packaged Monolith Visa card. We love seeing people unpackaged their Visa cards on Twitter.

• 56:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  You can tweet about it. Uh, once again, check out Monolith in the App Store and get started going bankless in the real world. David, we've covered a lot today.

• 57:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  It it almost seems like we were we were talking like it was just, uh, it brought me down a little bit, right? Um, like sobriety is good, but also, um, I don't know, we should talk about maybe something that's a little lighter, some of the good side, the, I guess, the cloud, the, you know, of all of these things that are going on. And I think that's probably, that probably brings up Gitcoin. We could talk about how some of these yield farming protocols are actually starting to set aside percentages for funding of public goods. It seems to be like a good outcome that's come out of all of this, is what I'm trying to say.

• 57:45David Hoffman?

  Right. And as we are sobering up from like this yield farming mania, like it, we need to also remind ourselves that like there is something real here, right? Like this didn't just come out of thin air. Like yield farming is a real thing. Like I expect yield farming to continue. It's just like now it's good to remind ourselves that what bad things can happen. I'm glad that that happened relatively early, so that it didn't, because if it happened later, it was going to be way bigger. But there are good things that are happening here. And one of the biggest signals that I think we all missed with, with the sushi guy, was that he was super mean to Hayden, right? Like on Twitter, he was a mean guy, like he was aggressive and he attacked Hayden, who Hayden is generally assumed to be a nice guy. And so some alpha

• 58:29David Hoffman?

  signal there is that like, the guy was mean, like that, don't, don't trust mean people, like trust nice people.

• 58:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Don't be a dick.

• 58:35David Hoffman?

  Don't be a dick, yeah. And don't, don't invest your money in protocols where the founder's a dick, right?

• 58:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  Because he's gonna rip you off the same way.

• 58:42David Hoffman?

  Right, exactly. And so like there's, there, on the other side of things, there are some protocols, Yam, Wi-Fi, and now also Baste, which are contributing a portion of their treasury to Gitcoin, right? And, and one of the fascinating things about all these farms is that a lot of them have treasuries, right? Like, the whole point of Yams is that it uses rebasing to generate a treasury. The whole point, the whole point of Urn and Wi-Fi is that it collects fees from the Urn protocol to contribute to a treasury. And same thing with, with Baste. And so... This treasury is fantastic because that gives reason for governance, right? It gives purpose for governance. But then also, we can signal, like with these farms, that you can signal your commitment to

• 59:27David Hoffman?

  the space by allocating funds to Gitcoin. And so there was a fun little like happenstance of events where, yeah, like Kevin, this tweet that you're sharing on the screen, and by the way, podcast listeners, if you're watching this on YouTube, there's plenty of visuals to look at as we talk about these things. So Kevin Owocki, back in the last week of August, proposed, submitted a proposal to the Yam governance that 1% of the inflows into the treasury goes to Gitcoin, right? Goes to funding public goods. And there's a lot of good that has come out of Gitcoin, right? The Bankless Nation being one of them, right? The good things come out of Gitcoin. And initially, like this, the proposal kind of was 50/50, it was kind of neck and neck,

• 1:00:08David Hoffman?

  and then it started to lose, and I think at the worst, it was like 63% to, what's the other half of that?

• 1:00:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  And David, this is Yam holders actually voting on whether they want 1% of the treasury to go to Gitcoin for public goods or not, right? You're saying at one point, the vote was losing, right?

• 1:00:25David Hoffman?

  Yeah, it started 50/50, then it started to lose, and then Andre from Urn comes in with the dunk and goes, yo, turns out Yams don't want this, but Urn definitely wants this. So I'm submitting a proposal to do 1% of the Urn system, which makes a lot more money than the Yam system, by the way.

• 1:00:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, are you serious? So I didn't, I totally missed that Urn was into this, too.

• 1:00:48David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Andre submitted a proposal to direct 1% of funds to Gitcoin, right?

• 1:00:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  1% of Urn funds?

• 1:00:57David Hoffman?

  Of Urn treasury flow, right.

• 1:01:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  But that's a lot. I mean, that could potentially be a lot bigger than Yam treasury funds.

• 1:01:05David Hoffman?

  Yeah, by a significant degree, right? And so when Andre publicly signaled his commitment to, his belief that Urn should commit to allocating 1% of funds, the vote on Yam started to sway, right? And so it started to go back into, back to 50/50. And then I wrote this very quick article called- Don't be stupid, dedicate some of your treasury to Gitcoin. And I tried to just put the nail on the coffin. And after, after these two things happened, there, there was just, the, the Yam vote was completely in favor, right?

• 1:01:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  So can I ask you, why is it stupid? Why is it stupid not to do this?

• 1:01:42David Hoffman?

  Right, so like, in, in the same way that Chef Nomi would have never done this, this is like a very strong signal of your alignment with Ethereum, right? And, and so it's, it turns all of the Gitcoin media people, which is, are people like you and me, Ryan, and it, it tells, it signals to them that you should be a shill for Yam and Urn because it allocates funds to Ethereum. So it's just why we're talking about it right now, right? So like, good on Yam and Urn. They did a good job by allocating funds to Gitcoin to help grow the ecosystem. And therefore they get publicity and, and, and organic free shilling from all the people that support.

• 1:02:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  So it's a win-win. It's good press for the protocol, but also public goods get funded. And Ethereum being a protocol without any sort of issuance that goes to maintenance of the protocol is a chief primary public good.

• 1:02:38David Hoffman?

  Right, right, yeah.

• 1:02:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so all of this goes to Gitcoin. But for folks who haven't used Gitcoin, how does Gitcoin work? How does Gitcoin distribute it? And what like, is, is this like a nonprofit that just kind of distributes the funds based on need? Or how does that work?

• 1:02:52David Hoffman?

  Yes, yeah, so Gitcoin is this very interesting platform which funds things that otherwise likely wouldn't have gotten funding, right? And this all came out of Vitalik's and Glenn Weil from the Radical Markets group. Their, their belief, their experiment around quadratic funding, right? And so it's a way to vote with your dollars, right? And so with Gitcoin, you as a single individual could donate $100 to a project. And then that project would receive some amount of matching, right? Like, so they, another, like, there would be another $100 matched by, by the Gitcoin treasury, right? Which is where this money is going to.

• 1:03:35David Hoffman?

  Instead, if a hundred individuals donated $1, so the same amount total, same amount aggregate, $100. But the fact that 100 individuals donated rather than one means that that, uh, those funds will be matched even more, like significantly more, like three or four times more. And so more of the Gitcoin treasury will be allocated towards the projects that received more grassroots funding, right? So like, not only is your dollar a vote, but also just the fact that you donated is also a vote. And you're signaling that you believe that this protocol or this effort should be funded, right? And the fact that like 1% of the urine protocol is allocating funds to the Gitcoin treasury and then 1% of yams.

• 1:04:18David Hoffman?

  And now 2% of based, which is, which is why this is turning into like a snowball. There's a lot of money flowing into the Gitcoin protocol.

• 1:04:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's a lot of money. That's super exciting. And so the quadratic voting, that means basically rather than rich people getting to decide where all the funds go, the people do. Because if you give $1, it could be, if you get a number of other people, individuals to give $1, then your, your, um, $1 could amplify, could be $50, could be $100, right? So people decide rather than rich. That's what the quadratic.

• 1:04:50David Hoffman?

  For the favor of the people, right?

• 1:04:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 1:04:52David Hoffman?

  And, and now with this growing treasury that perhaps, it probably won't, Gitcoin round seven is happening in a week, right? And so next day to the nation, we're getting Kevin Awaki on to talk about this and also public goods and why public goods are awesome.

• 1:05:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Very cool.

• 1:05:07David Hoffman?

  And but like it probably won't matter for that Gitcoin because it'll, it just happened and then the treasury hasn't like accumulated that much. But I bet by the time like the, the next Gitcoin round happens after that, there's going to be significant capital inflows. And we're going to, and this is important for Gitcoin because Gitcoin needs that sustainability, right? It needs that churn. It needs constant flows of cash. And Gitcoin rounds one through six was basically all funded by like consensus and the EF, right? And like that is a finite amount of funds, like consensus isn't really making money and not, and EF.

• 1:05:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  They're not making money and they're also a for-profit now VC invested company, right? So can we? Can we rest assured that that those funds are going to come moving forward?

• 1:05:48David Hoffman?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:05:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  And the EF runs out of funds eventually as well. And they don't have that much.

• 1:05:52David Hoffman?

  Right, yeah, they've never had that much, right? But but protocol, everyone is, everyone in the bankless nation that I've talked to are bullish on protocols. And so if protocols can allocate money to Gitcoin, then Gitcoin can perpetuate into the future forever and fund really important things that that can like come out of the graduating class of Gitcoin round seven, graduating class of Gitcoin round eight. Like, like I said, Bankless was part of that, like ETH Hub is part of that, DeFi Dad's a part of that, Cammy Russo, like a lot of important stuff. And that's just the media stuff, which I'm biased to, but there's plenty of tech stuff as well.

• 1:06:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, yeah, I mean, Uniswap was birthed from a grant. It wasn't a Gitcoin grant, but it was it was an EF grant of the same fashion. So it was like Zapper.

• 1:06:34David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:06:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's a show sponsor now, and it just got them started. Uh, tornado cash, tons of fantastic stuff. And also EIP 1559, which, uh, like, by the way, I mean, that is, that's a public good. That's not going to get done unless it's supported and funded adequately.

• 1:06:52David Hoffman?

  Yep.

• 1:06:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  So this, you know, you know why this is super exciting now that you're talking about it like in this way? Is that it gives a sustained source of funding that doesn't require protocol issuance, which is so cute, because the way other protocols are solving this, like a Tezos or a Polkadot, is basically they're saying, yeah, a portion of our issuance is going to go to this fund. And then who's going to vote where the, like, that's so issuance is, you know, minting of new coins, basically. And how is this fund going to be administered? Well, it's going to be administered by essentially token shareholders. Um, what does this sound a lot like? It sounds a lot like a corporation, right?

• 1:07:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Basically, where, you know, you have some sort of funding process and the individuals who own shares get to vote on where those funds are spent. In my opinion, a corporation in shareholder governance is not the right structure for a credibly neutral monetary system. Why? Because if, if, if, you know, Facebook governs your monetary policy, then Mark Zuckerberg and friends can change it at a whim. They can decide who to fund. I want to fund some of my cronies. So I love the fact that we're able to do some of this public funding without having to resort to some sort of Ethereum issuance,

• 1:08:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  where like, because that just gets messy. It's very difficult to govern. And I think it, it removes the credible neutrality of the platform, makes it much more like a, a crony, like, you know, shareholder type system rather than like a, like a market. It's very hard to do fund distribution in a way that's credibly neutral, I guess, as far as issuance goes.

• 1:08:38David Hoffman?

  Absolutely. And, and one of the, the big things that I'm bullish on is, so the Urn, Urn Protocol just decided, elected to pay nine individuals, like salary wages to work for Urn, right? So the Urn Protocol created nine jobs, right? And Urn is only like a month and a half old, right? And that's kind of like the bullish case for protocols. It's like, and, and like what the original vision of a DAO is, is code at the center and humans at the periphery. And now Urn has nine instantiated people at the periphery working for it, right? And this is what Gitcoin does. Gitcoin, like I came, the reason why I have a job in, in crypto is because of Gitcoin. Like, as, when I had my Gitcoin grant up, like David Hoffman, independent content producer, like I made a decent amount of money to the

• 1:09:23David Hoffman?

  point where I could like dedicate more of my time writing, which turned out, turned out into this job at Bankless, right? And so, and I'm bullish on the more money that gets into Gitcoin, the more jobs Ethereum can create, right? And the more jobs crypto creates, and especially Ethereum, just the, the faster the Bankless world arrives, right? Like, and so bullish on job creation, therefore bullish on Gitcoin. Like, Gitcoin is like the, the, the protocol, the protocol for like seed funding. Right, or not even seed funding, but less than that, like whatever is lower than seed funding, like micro funding. Like getting, getting the proof of concept out the door, rewarding you for your, your work, telling you,

• 1:10:06David Hoffman?

  signaling to you that your work is valuable and that you should continue. And then you can bootstrap your way into like doing a job in crypto. So for the bankless world that wants to get into working, think about something, think about value you can provide and then apply for a Gitcoin grant, because now there's a bunch of money in it.

• 1:10:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, Vitalik calls this the quadratic freelancer, right? Somebody who could just live on kind of grants, but what they're actually living on. So then you mentioned the DAOs, right? So Urin and Yam even, even based, they, these are all DAOs. And essentially, if we were to bring it to a nation state analogy, these are like companies building on top of, say, the US, right? So this is like the S and P 500. But now what these companies are doing, they're not taxed by the protocol based on their income or revenue, as a nation state might provide some kind of tax structure, system, corporate tax system. But they're opt in donating to fund the Ethereum nation, to fund the public good. So 1% and 2%, another 1%.

• 1:11:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, I can easily see these treasuries growing like over 100 million this cycle, like 500 million possibly, right? And 1 to 2% of that starts to add up to being a lot. So now we have like this opt in tax system. But even more beautifully, what we have is a, and hopefully Kevin shares more with us next week. I want to steal that thunder, but we have this fair distribution mechanism, right? And I like, I do really love quadratic voting. I think the outcomes of it, as long as you can, there have been some flaws and some problems. Vitalik does a write up every single like rant. Sometimes there's, there's civil attacks and these sorts of things, but on the whole, it's a pretty reasonable, fair distribution of the funds. Like it's way better than.

• 1:11:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's a small community, so it hasn't scaled, but it's way better than something like the government bureaucrats deciding who gets funded and what. The people get to vote and largely the projects that have kind of risen up and gotten the higher donations have been the ones where I'm like, yeah, these, these guys are doing the most for the, the community at this point in time. And like, it feels very fair. So it's like full cycle. Now we've got our tax. Now we've got our, our way to distribute this funds and we've got kind of the, the Ethereum nation, the flywheel effect growing. And it's just going to grow from here. Very exciting stuff.

• 1:12:26David Hoffman?

  Very exciting. Yeah. I, I do want to keep on talking about this, but also I do want to leave a lot on the table.

• 1:12:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, we should say some stuff.

• 1:12:32David Hoffman?

  When we get Kevin, Kevin on here next week. So stay tuned for that. If you are watching this on YouTube or on Twitch, uh, Kevin O'Walkie, you're going to come in and just really lay down the hammer on, on why public goods are so important. And, and I think one final note on this, Ryan, like the reason why I think that you like this mechanism in whatever, in comparison to whatever mechanism pre- preluded it, which is the government model, uh, and part of the bankless nation thesis, or the thesis about human development and progress at large is like, you know, humans are messy, right? Humans and decisions and governance is messy. And the human species has been able to scale by turning over governance to the hands of protocols, right? Like the Bible was a protocol and then the constitution was a protocol.

• 1:13:14David Hoffman?

  And now Ethereum is literally a protocol, right? And quadratic funding is a protocol. So we no longer have to have subjective decisions as to like allocating funds because the protocol does it for us. And the reason why quadratic funding is so spectacular is because if you are a market maximalist, if you like markets, Gitcoin grant funding is market-based funding. Like there's a reason why EIP1559 got, I don't know, like $150,000 in like 72 hours.

• 1:13:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  A lot of people really want that.

• 1:13:46David Hoffman?

  A lot of people really want that to pump their fucking bags as we've been doing when we talk about 15559. So it just makes a ton of sense, right? Um, it makes a ton of sense.

• 1:13:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, absolutely. All right, David, we're going a little long. Do you want to talk about the last thing Squad Wealth? Or do you want to save that for another time?

• 1:14:04David Hoffman?

  Let's save that for another time. We'll leave a little teaser on there. But sure, the TLDR is Bankless Nations is Squad and we're all going to grow our squad together. It's going to be fantastic.

• 1:14:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know what I'll do is I'll just put the article in the show notes so folks can read it. And we'll talk about this another time. It's kind of a trend. The most transformational article I've probably read, maybe in the last six months or so. I don't know. It's super good. I want to read it a few more times before I get my thoughts out on it. But we'll do that in the future.

• 1:14:33David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  David.

• 1:14:34David Hoffman?

  Kevin's going to have some opinions on that if I know Kevin well, so maybe.

• 1:14:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Very good. We'll save it for next time. Perfect. Okay, guys, so that's your reading material. I think that is it for State of the Nation today. We talked about sobriety. We talked about sushi. We talked about Gitcoin giving and the lighter side of all of these things. We're going to have Kevin on next week as well, so don't miss that. Thanks so much for joining us, guys. Everything we talked about, all of the assets that we talked about, none of it's financial advice. Whether it's ETH or Bitcoin or YAMs or sushi, you know, tread carefully in these things. There are risks. If you deposit funds in DeFi protocols, you could lose everything. But this is about the journey. This is about the constant learning that we're doing together as a bankless nation.

• 1:15:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's not for everyone, but thanks for joining us. This has been State of the Nation, episode 13.

• 1:15:33David Hoffman?

  Just going to pause for a second because of that truncation issue. All right.