Ryan Coogler

It's not overstating anything to say Ryan Coogler is the future of cinema. Not yet 40, the filmmaker's credits speak for themselves, FRUITVALE STATION, CREED, BLACK PANTHER, WAKANDA FOREVER, and now SINNERS. He joins Josh to talk about all of it, why he's in love with film over digital, and what it will mean to him to call action on Denzel Washington. UPCOMING EVENTS 1/6 in New York -- Tom Hiddleston -- ⁠⁠tickets here⁠⁠ 1/7 in New York -- Jennifer Lawrence -- ⁠⁠tickets here⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Josh Horowitz?

  How's that heart gonna feel on set if and when you get to call action on Denzel in a Black Panther movie?

• 0:38Speaker 02

  Be that out of all, you know, the 10 billion people on the planet are higher a billion we are now, I'm gonna be the happiest one, bro.

• 0:46Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

• 0:54Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, a first time guest, someone who we've been chasing for a long while, the great director that is Ryan Coogler. We are talking Black Panther, Creed, Fruitvale Station, and of course, Sinners. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in. Thanks for enjoying the podcast, however you're enjoying it. Spotify, YouTube, any podcast platform, whatever it is. I appreciate you guys. Hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. This is a really cool one. This is one that he's been on the list. People always ask me, who are you looking to get on? He's on the shortlist. He was on the shortlist. Ryan Coogler, in a relatively young career, in about a dozen years, as I think I say to him in this conversation, he's five for five

• 1:39Josh Horowitz?

  as far as I'm concerned. He has not made a miss as a director. He's so talented, I can't even imagine what the next 10, 20, 30 years look like for Ryan Coogler. But if they look anything like the past dozen, we're in for a treat. We're in for a lot of very special projects. Of course, Ryan has sinners. That is the, that is the topic at hand today. Came out. Nearly a year ago, I mean, last March, and it is still going strong. It's gotten re-releases. And of course, lots of justifiable awards buzz. So a deep dive into a very smart, talented filmmaker, Ryan Coogler. Before we get to the main conversation, I'll remind you guys, as always,

• 2:22Josh Horowitz?

  hit up our Patreon, patreon.com/happy, sad, confused. That's where you get early access and bonus materials, discount codes to our live events. By the way, we are starting January 2026 off with a very big, exciting live event at 92nd Street Y, Tom Hiddleston. So get in on that. If you're in town, you know me and Tom. That's, that's happy second fuse gold right there. So, um, yeah, get your tickets now. Me and Tom Hiddleston talking the night manager and more other cool stuff to come to, come soon to. Um, okay. In terms of more preamble for Ryan, I don't think I have to say much more, except you guys know what a talent he is. He's not only a director, he's, he's a writer-director.

• 3:07Josh Horowitz?

  He is truly an auteur. You know, I know that, that phrase is thrown around a lot, but he, he lives up to the hype. And to see what he's done with Sinners, totally original work, obviously has drawn inspiration from different sources, but it takes something to put it all together the way he did. And what a, what a big swing of a film and some validation that the audience will be there for big swings for original IP if done well. So I'm so happy Sinners is still in the awards conversation. It could, I mean, I think it's, I think it could get Coogler. I think it's gonna be his first directing nomination. Well deserved. Let's, let's, let's fingers crossed for that one.

• 3:50Josh Horowitz?

  Um, and this is, this is a great conversation. As I say, and it, I hope it's the first of many. He was very kind to me before and after. He, he apparently is a fan of the podcast. So hopefully we'll have him back because to be honest, this conversation scratched the surface. There's so much I want to do a deep dive with him on all of his films, but there's some highlights here. There's some fun stuff on all the works in this one. So if you love film, You're gonna love this one. Enjoy me and Ryan Coogler. Way overdue, but I am so, so, so thrilled. Ryan Coogler's unhappy, sad, confused, everybody. I've been standing O wherever you are. We got him. We got him.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  I'm honored to be here, bro. I'm honored to be here. I was excited for this, Josh. So I'm happy, happy to, happy to, I've been able to make it happen.

• 4:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, we're connecting finally. We were just talking before. We've been circling each other. Well, as far as I'm concerned, man, you're five for five as a filmmaker. You've had

• 4:48Speaker 02

  Oh, I appreciate that, bro.

• 4:50Josh Horowitz?

  You've had a hell of a dozen years. You're off to an amazing start. Talk to me a little bit. I was saying to you before, you know, I've seen you out and about at premieres and stuff for other people's films, not even your own stuff. I see you out there. Like, you're supporting, and I see you at film festivals. I don't bother you, but I see you and I clock you as a real one. Someone that's there for the movies and the filmmakers is not important to you. I mean, you, you, you love this shit. You live and breathe it.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  I do, man. I do. Like, I loved it before I was doing it, you know? I think that's the thing about

• 5:24Speaker 02

  our business. It's like that for most businesses, man, but like our business, everybody starts off a fan, you know?

• 5:32Speaker 02

  And, and, and that was me. I engaged with the, the industry as a consumer first, you know? And, and I don't ever want to lose that. You know, I never want to, I never want to lose that part of myself. So when you see me out, you know, sometimes I'm a part of the community. So sometimes it's a, it's a friend's premiere that I want to be at, you know, and support them.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  But I'm also like a fan deep down, you know? So I'm, I'm in constant pursuit of that feeling of having my mind blown in the, in the cinema.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  And, and I, and I also like to have it blown by before I could have it ruined. You know what I mean? By a review or by word of mouth. You know what I'm saying?

• 6:12Josh Horowitz?

  I love that festival experience. There's nothing like it, is there? You, you, like, because we all get, whether we like it or not, we get influenced by what we see in the ecosystem.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And, and that's what, that's why, you know, especially today with, with, with information and really like people's opinion is so, is so proliferated, you know? And, and also there's like a

• 6:38Speaker 02

  You know, for better or for worse, there's an opinion economy, you know, so, so that, uh, um.

• 6:45Josh Horowitz?

  You good, man?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  I'm good, bro. I'm good. Yeah, I was just, I was, I'm, I'm gonna get rid of this final drive icon that's jumping up and down.

• 6:51Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, good. But we'll, we'll just pick up where we were.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, I had this, I had this final, this final drive.

• 6:58Josh Horowitz?

  You want, you want to do share a screen on the Black Panther script? Is that something you'd like to do? Just like?

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Nah, nah. Isn't, it's nothing there for you yet, but, um.

• 7:09Josh Horowitz?

  But you were saying, look, it's, it's amazing. I mean, it must blow your mind to be like, I was gonna say, like, to me, I, I love you talking about the filmmakers you grew up with and some of them who became peers and real influences to you, the late, great John Singleton, Spike, who's so important to you. I mean, to me, when I look at like the work you're putting out, I see Spike, I see Singleton, I also see Spielberg, I see those guys, like, I see you as a love child of all these influences. Do you see that? Do you see that yourself?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Oh, yeah. Big time, big time. Um, everybody you just mentioned, I've had a chance to, to, to, to me, spend time with, tell them how much they mean to me, which is nice. I'm gonna see Spike tonight. Um, I'm, I'm giving him an award tonight. So I'm, so I'm, so I'm gonna see him and, and, and get to, you know, speak to, um, you know, what he means to me. Um, I had a chance to, uh, I spent time with Chris last night, um, um, who was, who was a big, big influence and, and mentor now, you know? Um, so those guys, those guys give me advice, man. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's, it's, it's, it's coming, it's going beyond influence to, it's become mentorship, you know?

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Um, and just partially, bro, like, like, I grew up, I'm a, I'm a big brother, you know, like, I'm the eldest of three. So, um, you know, all of, all of my life has been about, you know, trying to be there for my little brothers and, and advise and, um. And help be a source of guidance. Um, but I always wanted that for myself, you know what I'm saying? Like, I didn't have, I didn't have a, a big brother. I had, I had big cousins that were like a lot older than me. In a lot of ways, that's what sinners is about, you know what I mean? Um, but, but yeah, it was something that I, that I always yearned for. So, so it, it's a blessing in cinema to, you know, have access to movies that, that, um, that you admire. Um, to be able to, to, you know, I, I was a big physical media guy, you know, like saw, I would watch the movies.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  I'll break them down, um, you know, study them, um, you know, figure out why they made me feel the way that I, that I felt on a technical level. Um, and then I was blessed, you know, to go to film school and, and get a chance to meet some of these people, you know, and over time. You know, you know, had a chance to befriend them, you know, and, and, and, um, and, and, you know, it become a part of my life. Some of them become a part of my life, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, uh, um, you know, like, like John before he passed, you know, like, like Spike, like, like, like Christian Emma. Um, you know, where I can, where they become a phone call or a text away. Um, and it's, it's been, it's been, it's been amazing, but no, I absolutely was influenced by all of the stuff that I was taking in.

• 9:46Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, do you see, do you see some of them, some of their specific work in, in, in sinners? I mean, when I saw it again the other night, I was seeing, I was thinking through the prism of some of these filmmakers. And, you know, I, you know, I, I thought of something like, people don't think of Singleton with this film, but like I thought of Rosewood. I thought of that film. I thought of, I thought of, you know, Spike, Malcolm X in the way that like he made, that's a movie movie. Spike like leaned in and made like, you know, big screen like entertainment.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, David Lean is epic.

• 10:14Josh Horowitz?

  Gave it that treatment.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  No, totally. It was something that he talked about, man, like I, I, and I talked to him about it. And it was something that made me very emotional because, um, for, for Spike to make Malcolm X the way that he wanted to make it. Um, and I think that's a, that's a very perfect movie. I've spoken about that movie. I, I think it's. You know, for where I see it, it's maybe like the most important movie about America. You know what I mean?

• 10:46Speaker 02

  And what he had to do to make that movie, man, like he had to go, he had to go, he had to go fundraise. You know, he had to go to other, to other, specifically, um, black people, you know, who had capital to get them to, to get his finishing funds, you know?

• 11:04Speaker 02

  And for me, I had this opportunity where I didn't have to do that, you know, because of what Spike, Spike did and what John did in terms of like paving the way. You know, for me, I didn't have to go big brawl still for, for, for, for additional funds. You know, the studio was, was willing to put that, put that money up for what we were trying to do. And it made me, it made me really emotional when I thought about that. You know, um, uh, what he had to go through to, to, to bring a movie that was so important, you know what I mean? It's about one of the most important, you know, American, Americans ever in Malcolm X. Um, and I'm making a movie about, you know, it's, it's, it's about, you know, obviously it has the, the, the, you know, the burden of, of, of, um,

• 11:45Speaker 02

  this, this, this group that I think is underrepresented, you know what I mean? Like the stuff, like the people of, of the 1930s in the Mississippi Delta. But, you know, like, like for, for us, like with this genre element, the studio was fully behind this, you know what I mean? It was like, yo, yo, go, go make it as epic as possible. And I just, I just, it, it, it filled my heart with so much gratitude for, for, for Spike and John and, you know, and, and McQueen and Fuqua and, and all the way back to Oscar, Oscar Michaux and Julie Dash and, you know, um.

• 12:17Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that's so much of what your work's about is also like legacy and passing it on and fathers and sons and like, I mean, you know, you know, the next generation is going to stand on your shoulders too, because you made the billion dollar Black Panther movie and you made centers on your own name.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can only hope, bro, like, like that, that, um.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  That we can pay, you know, this this fortune for, um, this good fortune that we've that we that we've had on this movie and others. But when you say you see that, when you say you see the influences, bro, I'm like, I'm not trying to hide them, you know what I mean? Like, like, like, uh, um, because, you know, one thing I learned, we should do this exercise. We should do this exercise in film school. It's called the vagabond project. Where where they would get a bunch of first semester film students at SC and we will all go to the vagabond hotel, which was like down the street. And we would all take the same script. And split up into different crews. And we would make them, you know, we would make the movie. And it's like same, like, like same lines and you couldn't change it, you know, that was part of the deal. You couldn't change it.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  And we will all come back with like six completely different movies, you know, you know, you know what I mean? Like, like, like it was, it was one of those things where, where you realize that even when you, even, you know, even if you try to like Xerox some somebody, you know what I'm saying? Um, it it ends up being different. And I've even seen it with filmmakers who remake their own stuff, you know, like Michael Hennicki did Funny Games.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  You know, and he just did it. He just did it as a, he did it in a different language and just as an older filmmaker, a shot for shot remake. And it still felt completely different, you know, you know what I mean? Like, it's it's one of those things where, you know, you realize, man, you don't got to hide your influences, you know what I mean? You don't got to hide your inspiration. It's it's going, it's going to be your own anyway, you know, you know what I'm saying? Just by the fact that you, that you making it. Um, in in in a, yeah, man, like I'm always, you know, before I, before I, I, um, I make any movie, I always start by saying, all right, what did the, what did the guys that I admire? When they had to do something similar, what did they do? You know, you know what I mean? Like, then you you kind of, I kind of throw a little film festival for myself, you know, you know what I'm saying?

• 14:30Speaker 02

  I'm watching the things and, um, kind of watching anything like for this movie. Um, I I have bought, um, Don't Look Now.

• 14:38Josh Horowitz?

  Hmm.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Nick Rode, right? I bought, I bought, I bought, yeah, I bought, I bought, I bought this, I bought this movie, The Criterion Blu-ray, Blu-ray. Maybe six years before I knew I was making centers. And I just had it because I heard so much about it. You know, uh, and and and it was something I, you know, I got a lot of stuff. I got a lot of physical media that's like, oh, I'll get to this one day, you know? Uh. And it was like I realized I was about to make this, this, you know, this, this, you know, kind of Gothic horror movie. Um, and I wanted it to be sensual and you know, something, you know, who popped this here, man? Blew my fucking mind, bro. Blew my mind, bro. Like, like, you know what I mean? And I'm like, I'm like, oh, I like, like, but the, the film has to, it has to have a feeling like this, you know what I'm, you know what I mean?

• 15:23Speaker 02

  Like, like specifically that, the, uh, the intimacy, not, not just that legendary, not just that legendary intimacy scene, you know, uh, that influenced so much, you know what I mean? Like, I, I think, I think it, you know, I haven't talked to Soderbergh about this, but I think it had to have influenced the sex scene in Out of Sight. You know, it had to have like, like, but, but the fact that, that the, that this, that this horror movie, this psychological thriller, supernatural, could contain a moment like that between husband, between grieving husband and wife.

• 15:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  You know? And, and, and, and, bro,

• 15:59Speaker 02

  I saw that after I had written the scene with smoking any.

• 16:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  I had written that scene already, bro. You know what I'm saying? And I, and I'll sit, and I'll sit there and watch it. I'm like, oh man, I'm on the same type of time at this, that this, you know, this film I agree is I ain't ever met. I hadn't seen his movie. You know, I just heard about it. You know what I mean?

• 16:15Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  Um.

• 16:16Josh Horowitz?

  You pierced the veil. You, you spoke to Nick Rogue through the veil.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  Oh, no, he was, he was speaking to me, bro. You know, he was speaking, he was speaking to me, you know, and, and I think that, uh, that, that for me it was like, okay, it was a, it's affirming, right? You know, it's affirming. I go, this is possible. You know what I mean? Maybe this movie can contain this, this, this, this much, you know?

• 16:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. You can't be constrained by genre. Like some people might say, it's a vampire movie. You can't be intimate. You can't be so sexy. You can't do it.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Like, like, like at that point, I'm in, I'm in on the movie. I'm in, right? Once you got the audience in, it's like, all right, you got them now. What you gonna do with them? You know what I mean?

• 16:49Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  And, and I was, that was kind of how, how, how, how I felt. You know, I'm like, oh my, you know, it's just, you know,

• 16:58Speaker 02

  it's maybe the best intimacy scene I've ever seen. You know what I'm saying? Like, and it's, and it's, it's in his horror movie, you know?

• 17:03Josh Horowitz?

  I know.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  You know, um, it's in his movie with like blind mediums and shit. You know what I'm saying?

• 17:09Josh Horowitz?

  Some haunting imagery in that one.

• 17:18Speaker 04

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• 18:37Josh Horowitz?

  What are the non-negotiables? When you went out on the market with this, because this was sold on you and Michael, and this is not based on any IP, as people know, this is sold on your name.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  I mean, I can't take away Zinzi and Seb either, right? Like, we've done a lot of business since the pandemic on things out in direct, right? Like, we did Creed 3, which made almost $300 million go post-pandemic. We did Judas and the Black Messiah, Space Jam. Buffalo's got caught up in the Day and Date decision that happened during the pandemic. Space Jam's still open globally, number one. Did a lot of good business for Warner Brothers. So, yeah, it was me and Mike, but it was also me, Zinzi, and Seb.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  And I think, like, look, the non-negotiables were, number one, was that it would be shot on film. That was a big one. I was probably, out of all of them...

• 19:42Speaker 02

  That was the, that was the one that I think was the most important, you know?

• 19:47Josh Horowitz?

  So tell me, so tell me this, cause like, you know, I'm a cinephile, obviously, a lot of people listening and watching this are. But 96% of the folks that are watching movies out there, they walk out of the theater, they couldn't necessarily tell you the difference. Oh, I definitely saw something digital. I definitely saw something in 65 mil. Why, why is it so important to you when you know intellectually, they're not going to know that? Maybe emotionally, they're going to respond in a different way. What's your, why is that such a passion for you?

• 20:13Speaker 02

  I think it matters, you know, like, um,

• 20:19Speaker 02

  just, just because I can't articulate like, like, why, why, why I like something, I think, you know, I think it's still, I think it still affects them. You know what I mean? Um, and, and look into today, into today's age, I think, I think, look,

• 20:32Speaker 02

  I think shooting something on film is more impactful now than it ever was because we, because there's such a proliferation of digital photography. You know, um, the average person in a, in a day is going to interact with like, I gotta imagine like hundreds, if not thousands of digital images, like between a phone and they, you know, that's right now, right? We talking via digital photography, right? It's a tiny sensor in my, in my laptop, you know what I mean? That's, that's, you know, so, so, so we so, we so used to the digital image that when you see something that was captured with cellular, it feels different.

• 21:10Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Like, you know, I think, you know, it's, it's, it's not, it's the same way that like, look, like this is, is restaurants serving food, right? Michelin star restaurants serving food every day, right?

• 21:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  And, and, and, you know, everybody who's buying a reservation is not a culinary expert, you know what I'm saying? Some people who just want to have a nice night out, right? They want a good meal. They heard, I heard this restaurant was nice. I got some, you know, I'm a, I'm a treat myself. I'm a treat my, my date. I got an anniversary and they sit down and they bite into, to the moose bush. They can't tell you why it's good. You know what I'm saying? They just, they just, you know what I mean?

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Tell you that this guy, that this guy, a level of cooman in it, in, in, you know, like, uh, uh, a butter that was flown in from there. I don't fucking know, you know, you know, some people can't bite it and they know, you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying? Like, like who, who are culinary artists who engage with, with that art form on a daily, right? It's their life's calling, right? Like, like.

• 22:03Josh Horowitz?

  They know the why, but most people will know that still that there's a difference. They might not know the why or the how.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  And all the difference, you know what I'm saying, like this, this, and I feel, and it's instant, right? Yeah. You know, um, they, they, you know, your average person who, who goes to see six, seven movies a year, they, they, they know that when, they know that when Chris or Paul or Quentin, um, from frame one, they know something's different, you know? Now, these are, these are master filmmakers, you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying? Like, so, so, so it's a lot of shit happening in there, but that, but that, but that medium, that medium is, is playing, is playing a, a, a role too, you know, um, uh, so, so, like, it, it does matter, um, a- and, and the other piece is,

• 22:52Speaker 02

  that's not talked about enough, is that it's a different working rhythm when you're working in all those formats, right? Like, like, um, things just become different, like, you can't, like, like, like Creed, um, was a digital movie, right? We shot Creed digital, and I love that movie, I love how that movie looked, I love, Maurice Albright, he was our cinematographer, we worked with on that, um, you know, uh, but, but, but I had scenes, I had boxing scenes, bro, we had six cameras working. You know, me, me and my, me and my, my, my baby brother, Keenan, was my assistant on that. He, he actually was one of the screenwriters on Creed three. But we were under the ring. Maurice was in the, was in, was in, um, the, the D I T. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

• 23:36Speaker 02

  But I'm under the ring, bro, with a, with a, with a iPad with six cameras on it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm watching, I'm watching a close-up of Stallone, I'm watching a shot of Michael, Michael and Tony's feet. I'm watching, I, I got a camera mounted at the top of the ceiling, that's just like, that's just like just straight God's eye at a, at a, at a, uh, at a ring in case I need that. I got a, I got cameras, I'm shooting, bro, I got people in HBO suits. That are that are that are in the scene like as as as camera operators for for yo. Bro, them is bro, them is cameras I'm using, bro. I could cut to those cameras. You know, you know, you know, you know what I mean?

• 24:14Josh Horowitz?

  Like you're using everything. You're going full Ridley Scott.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  More cameras. Four really, I'm going for really, bro. Like, like, and like, and like, that shit, that shit just splits your mind apart, bro. Like, you know, you know what I mean? Cause you can't, you know, and and and um, and yeah, like, like, like the, the, in the D I T. You know, that image is actually what is it gonna be? You know, it's very close to what it's gonna be. Like, they're doing, they're doing a lot of color work. You know, obviously, the color is is gonna, is gonna do that thing later on with with more processing power and and and the projection and everything. But, you know, like, like, that's, that's very close to what it is. So, so it's it's difficult for um your cinematographer to not spend a lot of time in the day, you know, when you, when you working.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  And and and and I don't, I don't love that, bro. Like, I like, I like the, I like the D P to be, to be like, right? Cause I'm next to the camera. That's how I was trained, you know? Um, I just did a director's roundtable and um, you know, the great, you know, Yolkin Trier.

• 25:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, oh, he does that too. I know, yeah.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  He was talking about, he was talking about, and bro, we from different fucking continents, bro. You know what I'm saying? But we know, like, like, you stand next to that camera, you know, you know what I'm saying?

• 25:23Josh Horowitz?

  Like, that's where you're with the actor. Yeah, you, yeah.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  Where you gotta be, man. It's happening once. You know what I'm saying? You don't wanna be

• 25:31Speaker 02

  hundred feet below to a monitor somewhere. You wanna be right there. You know, you know what I mean? And I, I like from, I like from my, from my director photography to be right there with me. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's, that's, that's what I like, you know? And and um, and and digital, you know, you kinda gotta rage against the process, cause that, cause that process kinda requires them to, they gotta spend some time in that day, man. You know, you know what I mean? That's just the reality of it, you know? Like, um, uh, and and and the reality of it is, when you digital, you know, more cameras kinda come with it. You gotta kinda rage against, you gotta kinda say, nah, we only doing, you only doing one camera, you know, you know what I'm saying? And and, you know, but if it's there, it's like, oh, man, maybe it can get the, you know, maybe it can get the feet. You know, now I got, you know, now I can, you know, it's so, so, so for me.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  I'll go back to Fruitville, bro. We had one, bro. We had one four sixteen. And that shit was on Rachel Morrison's shoulder. You know, and that was what it was, bro. You know what I'm saying? Octavia doing her shit, man. It's one, you know, Mike doing it. It's one camera, you know? And, and, um, so, so I, I, I wanted to get back to that. And the actors know, bro.

• 26:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Like, I just know when you hear that film, when you hear that film running through the camera, man, it's a different level of focus. Like, and, and, and there's also like a level of alchemy there, right? Like, when you got, when you got digital, bro, you know, it's, you know, there's monitors everywhere, but they hide their 4K monitors. So, you got video village here, you got the, the, the, you know, the, all of the artists who doing that intricate work. All right. So makeup, man, we need a monitor. So we can see the, the,

• 27:10Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  You know, we got, so now makeup, got our hair around the monitor, you know, so you, bro, there's nothing, bro, to, to like, I'll, I'll take a walk. It's something, man, it's seven, it's seven video village, brother.

• 27:20Josh Horowitz?

  Who's the record here?

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, bro. It's seven video, it's seven video villages. You know, I'm like, man, goddamn, what is it? You know?

• 27:30Josh Horowitz?

  I'm the only one that needs to know.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that's not, I'm, I'm good. I'm good with them. You know, I'm good with everybody. They work. You feel me? I'm not, I'm not.

• 27:36Josh Horowitz?

  No, you're not precious about it. I get it.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, but like that, you feel me? But, but it does, it does become like, like, like, like, like a drive-in theater. Right?

• 27:46Josh Horowitz?

  Got a multi- I'm set.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, bro, like, and, and, and it's all, like, every, it's all 4K. It's all HD. You seeing every pore.

• 27:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying? And, and like, so for me, I'm like, I'm like, bro, like with, with, man, with, with, with, with film, man, people using their eyes, bro.

• 28:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  It's like, man, go look at the person, man. If you got an issue, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, it ain't gonna be, it ain't gonna be in the, it ain't gonna be in the monitor. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, don't bring them to their ready, you know, and, and, and, and watch, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, take a look, you know, look at their face, you know, and, um, And and and I got like with with centers, bro, I got I got, you know, Miles, man, he fresh out of high school, bro. He had never seen a film camera before.

• 28:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  You know, you turn that thing on, he's like, what is this magic? You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? Like, and and it would it would it would really get it. It just brought it brought a level of focus um and a level of um of of everybody's A game that I really I really missed. You know?

• 28:44Josh Horowitz?

  You just got to convince you got to convince Feige to to just break the seal.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 28:50Josh Horowitz?

  Come on.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  I think I think I think I think podcast for another day.

• 28:53Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:55Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so there's so much I want to cover with you. I know we're not going to get to everything, but this is your first time on the pod. So I do want to cover some stuff going back in the career a little bit. And and look, obviously, you make the huge shift. I mean, Fruitvale is fantastic. It's obviously a remarkable piece of work.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks.

• 29:10Josh Horowitz?

  Both you and Mike. And then you make that amazing leap to Creed. And I'm curious, like, I'm always fascinated by that jump because and I know you were already kind of like trying to manifest or not more than manifest. You were working on Creed. You were selling Psy on that before that even hit theaters. I think it was kind of in that.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  It was it was before we shot Fruitvale. I I had my first sit down was was so long, we were in prep.

• 29:31Josh Horowitz?

  That's crazy.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  It was it was, yeah, but I mean, it was it was a um, yeah, it was I did it. I had um.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was parallel to Fruitvale, you know.

• 29:44Josh Horowitz?

  So so so give me a sense of that period around that time when after Fruitvale is out, you're maybe about to shoot Creed like. Were you go were you even going up for like studio gigs? There were reports at the time that like you met with Kathy Kennedy about Force Awakens even like you're a young filmmaker.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, no, I I didn't I didn't meet I didn't meet about Force Awakens, no. I I make, yeah, no, no, no, no, no.

• 30:08Josh Horowitz?

  That was later on?

• 30:09Speaker 02

  No, no, no, I I that that that was never um something that came my way like like. That was at such a different level, bro, from where I was at.

• 30:19Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that was my first.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, your First Awakens and Creed came out the same year.

• 30:23Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  So, so, so, um, you know, and they were, they were talking to, you know, they were talking to like A, A-list, you know, franchise level filmmakers like, like, like that was, that was beyond where I was, where I was at, you know, at that time and, and, um.

• 30:40Josh Horowitz?

  But were, were you viewing Creed, I, I know that was a passion project for a number of reasons connected to family, but like, were you also viewing it as kind of, look, it was, it was worthy of doing on its own. Obviously you had a passion for it, but it was also a stepping stone and kind of learning how to handle a bigger budget and a bigger crew and, and a star like Sly. Were you cognizant of like, this is kind of, kind of get me to where I need to go?

• 31:01Speaker 02

  What, what I was, yeah, that's such an interesting question, man, cause, um, cause yeah, Fruitville, uh, came with a lot of opportunity, like, um, afterwards. And, and I'll, I'll never forget, man, like, like they, I did something called, um, they call it like a victory lap. Like from a business perspective, but, but what, what it was, was like, like, you know, my, my agents at WME, great, great agents. I, I still, I still have one, one of them at the time is, is a guy named Craig Castile, who, um, who represents, you know, represents like all your favorite filmmakers, you know, you know what I mean? And, um, um, he's a brilliant agent and I had a guy named Charles King at the time who, who, who made the transition. He's Charles, not my manager, but he owns Macro.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Um, but, but yeah, Craig and Charles, they set me up with meetings with, with studios all over, all over town.

• 31:52Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  These, in these meetings, I would end up having relationships out of them that, that I still have to this day. Like I met with Nigel Kukunod, who I, who was that one of those, I ended up making Judas and the Black Messiah with her. Uh, I met Pam Abdi, who was that, who was that new regency at the time. And then, you know, obviously just greenlit, greenlit centers and, and one battle and weapons and our partnership with Mike, Mike DeLuca. Um, but one of the folks that I met, uh, I think his name was, uh, Adam, man, what was Adam's last name? He, he ran Paramount at the time.

• 32:20Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  Um, I, I want, I want to say it was Adam Davidson, but that's, that's not, that's not the right, the right last, last name, but, um. He he said, he he said, I all, he's, he said to me, I love Fruitville. But he said, man, do me a favor and don't make the same movie all all over again. He was like, he was like, you gotta make some, something bigger for your second movie.

• 32:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  And he was like, it ain't gotta be the biggest thing in the world, you know what I mean? But he was like, but he was like, he was like, please make something, he's like, yo, please make something bigger.

• 32:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  Uh, he was, he was like, yo, I see a lot of filmmakers come out of Sundance with, with, you know, with movies that, that, that I really love. And then they go make another version of that same thing, the same scale, you know, um, and he was like, and he was like, if you got any hope of of making bigger things, that that doing that was sending the wrong signal.

• 33:11Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  You know, and I, and I remember, it was just that, fuck, I can't, I can't remember what I was doing. But but I, but I remember, I remember that, um, you know, him saying that meant something to me. And I was alr-, I was already working on Creed, but Creed wasn't a sure thing yet. You know, like, like, um, I think Sly was maybe, he was, he was, he was still, um, doing an expendables movie.

• 33:32Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  And and, uh, we hadn't had a chance to, to, to, to reconnect, um, in, in, in, you know, since the movie coming out. Cause, cause when we first met, it was definitely a vibe of, ay, it was nice to meet you, young man.

• 33:48Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Come back to me when your movie's done, you know? I hadn't made a, I hadn't made a feature film yet, um, and, and, uh, and, and so we hadn't had a chance to reconnect because of his schedule.

• 33:59Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  And, and, and, yeah, like other things were coming towards me, but nothing like, nothing like a Star Wars movie, bro. Like, like it was, it was, it was, you know, um, you know, mid, you know, you know, mid budget things and

• 34:10Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  And nothing I was, I was sure, sure. And, and I, I was a writer, you know, um, I see myself as that first.

• 34:17Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I was gonna say that. Thank you for, for saying that, because it's one of the things that differentiates you. And I think people forget that about Nolan, about you, is that you guys not only are operating on the highest level, you're writer-directors, you're like generating your own material, you are storytellers in every sense of the word. And I'm sure that's, that's something that you take pride in and is hugely important to you as an artist.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  I, I, I appreciate your kind words there, man, but yeah, it is a different working rhythm, you know, like, like, um, we all, we all different, you know, all, all. Directors work differently, you know.

• 34:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Uh, but yeah, like I, I, I, it's, it's my, it's my preference, my process to start from the page, you know?

• 34:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  Um, and, and, and, uh, but people were still, I think in the issue, we're, we're still learning about me and, and were submitting me things and, and, um, and it was definitely a time where it could have went, it could have went either direction, you know? Um, you know, so this is, this is twenty,

• 35:14Speaker 02

  you know, this is twenty thirteen, essentially like, like, uh, cause, cause Fruitvale came out at the top of twenty thirteen at Sundance. And it, and it, and it, it didn't hit theaters until the summer. So like in between Sundance and the movie coming out the theaters, there's a lot of meetings, you know, uh, and a lot of festivals, you know what I mean? We did, we did Cannes, a bunch of other international festivals. Um, and then, uh, and then I think Sly came home from doing Expendables. And I remember it was a big piracy thing on his, on his movie too.

• 35:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Where, where, you know, which, which, which I know frustrated him, man, you know, um, uh, and, and, cause it was still like, it was funny to think about ten years ago, bro, like how much of this technology that's, that's, that's an everyday thing for us now is, is, is new then, right? Um, and, and, uh, yeah, and then we sat down, he had a chance to watch the movie, you know, um, and then we, we had some meetings. And we, we got, and we got along, bro. And he was like, man, let's do it, you know, like, like, and that it changed everything for me because it did give me an opportunity to, um, uh, work on a scale. That was, that was, you know, obviously look, it was, it was thirty times the budget of Fruitvale was, um,

• 36:30Speaker 02

  but, but it wasn't a hundred times or two hundred times the budget, you know, you know what I mean? Like it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't enough to just like, to just like wash me away in the, in the, in, in the craziness of it. Like I couldn't have gone from Fruitvale to, to Black Panther one, for instance, right? Like, um, uh, and it was, and it was also like a lot of, with Creed, it was a film where, where, you know, I was able to be incredibly creative, but also had like a lot of structure around me.

• 36:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I'm sure Sly had some very specific ideas. He's a filmmaker in his own right and.

• 37:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, like, like, like, he was, he was a, um.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Honestly, bro, he really took me under his wing, bro. Like, like, like, um, you know, um, I don't know if I could ever repay him for, uh, all of that advice, but also all of the trust, man. You know what I'm saying? Like, he, like, he, he, he, he kind of like gave himself over to me as an actor.

• 37:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  While still, while still, while still being there for guidance when it came to filmmaking, life, um, um, decisions. And that, and that, and that went on, man, like for, for, you know, you know, for many years, you know what I'm, you know what I mean? Like, I could go, I could go to him and say, hey, man, like, you know, for, for the, for the Panther deal, for instance, you know what I mean? Like, I got to have anybody I could talk to, um, about, uh, how to, how to approach it. That wasn't like my agent or a lawyer, you know what I'm saying? Or, or, you know, if, if him, he, you know, he's a writer-director, right? He a writer first, you know what I'm saying? Before, you know, even though, even though he's a, even though he's a world-class actor, you know, um, he a writer first, you know what I'm saying?

• 38:12Speaker 02

  So, so, you know, he would understand, I'm like, I got this, this thing I, you know, he was, he was, he was, he was, all right, so look, this what you gotta think, this what you gotta be thinking about, you know, um, uh, you know, I was about to, me and says he's about to get married, kind of advice there, you know? Um, but, but also, it was also Erwin Winkler there, you know, um, and I had, and I had the structure of the Rocky movie that I knew so, that I knew so well as a fan. So it was a lot of, it was a lot of, uh, um, scaffolding.

• 38:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  You know, you know, for me to, for me to be able to, to, to, to make that, that, you know, that creative jump, which, which I'm, you know, I'll forever be, I'll forever be grateful for, man.

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• 40:27Josh Horowitz?

  I have a random but specific one about the jump to Black Panther. I mean, it was, that was a film that was obviously being talked about for years and years and years, and went through different iterations. Is it true that you, you wanted Craven to be your bad guy? And I guess, how far down the road did you get? Is there, is there an iteration where Michael B. is playing Craven the hunter?

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Mike was always gonna be Killmonger. And when I saw Luke, when I took that, when I took that job, um, Joe Robert Cole, who's my co-writer on both, both the Panthers, and he's, you know, he's, you know, he's the director now, you know what I mean? Like, like a showrunner, you know, he's working in Atlanta on, um, on a, on an adaptation for, uh, for Netflix. Um, but, but yeah, when I took that, when I took the, the job, Joe had, Joe had been working with, with Marvel and they more on, they had a, they had an outline, you know? Um, uh, and, and, and, and so when I showed up, it was like, hey,

• 41:26Speaker 02

  We have our villains, our villains are are are Claw and Eric Killmonger.

• 41:31Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Uh, so that had been, that had been decided upon, you know, you know what I'm saying? Uh, and and and so, no, I'm lying now, bro. I know, um, and the outline of villains were Claw and Killmonger, but but but they they weren't, they weren't sure, they weren't sure. Like, like, you know, you know, you know, Claw Claw Claw felt slightly modular to him, you know? Um, and and obviously it was, it was like the great Andy Serkis, so I'm like hyped to work with him. Um, but they also had had a, they wanted to base it on the Christopher Priest run.

• 42:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  Of Panther. And and he's got an awesome, he he's got, his run like starts with, um, a fight with Panther and Craven in the kitchen.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Like, that's like the first, the first thing is like, it's like, it's like Ross, Panther, Craven fighting in the kitchen.

• 42:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  You know, um, and and I I was, I was, I was like, yo, like a fuck it, you know, I'm a big Spider-Man fan. You know, like, um, especially Spider-Man, the animated series.

• 42:36Josh Horowitz?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Craven, Craven's great in that. He also like great in the books, you know what I'm saying? So I was like, yo, like, like, can I, can I have Craven in this movie? And and and, um, and they were like, we don't think so, but like, but like, let us check right quick. So they they hit Sony and Sony was like, absolutely not. So so they came back to me and was like, yo, we can't do it. So like, okay, so so it was, but it was like a two week process where I was developing some ideas. Um, you know, but I'm glad, I'm glad it didn't work out, cause, cause, cause, cause Craven would have, would have, would have basically like taken that Claw spot.

• 43:13Josh Horowitz?

  Right, and we denied the great Andy Serkis.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I wouldn't have been able to work with Andy, you know what I'm saying? So it was, it was, it was like, it was like, thankfully it was doomed from the jump, you know?

• 43:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Each of these films could be like three hours of the podcast. So I'm sorry I'm jumping around, but like,

• 43:27Speaker 02

  I'm good, bro.

• 43:28Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, Wakanda Forever, I mean, I don't even know how you were able to make that, given all that happened and losing Chadwick, who, by the way, I was privileged enough to know he did the podcast. I mean, just to be around that guy, obviously. What a special, a special man. Um, I mean,

• 43:44Speaker 02

  He's special, bro.

• 43:45Josh Horowitz?

  Did he ever, did he see a completed script? I mean, I know he was like, he was like getting ready, but was there a script in place?

• 43:51Speaker 02

  He, um, yeah, no, I, I, he was, he was, I mean, honestly, what happened was, um, I finished it and, um, and I, and I, uh,

• 44:05Speaker 02

  and I, and I, and I hit him up to read it and he was, he was, he was, he was too sick to read, bro. Like, like, you know, I was, I was kind of out of time and was, you know, like he was, he was at a place where it wasn't, it wasn't gonna happen.

• 44:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  Uh, I didn't, I didn't, you know, um, and I didn't know, you know, like, like, um, he, he, he,

• 44:26Speaker 02

  you know, our, our, our, our relationship was really interesting, bro. Like, um, cuz, cuz,

• 44:33Speaker 02

  he meant a lot to me. Um, uh, but, but, but I, but I found out, I found out after his passing, you know, from, from, from his family and, and from his friends, like how much I meant to him, you know?

• 44:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Um, uh, which, which, um, fucked me up pretty good, bro. Um, uh, and I, and I wondered if, I wondered if he knew, if he knew just how, how much he meant to me, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, I, I, I did, I did wonder. Um, but like, yeah, like he, he protected me from a lot, bro.

• 45:10Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  You know, our relationship was one of a lot of protection, you know, you know what I mean? Like, I was convinced on the, on the, on the toughest days on Panther, I was convinced that I was gonna get fired. You know, you know what I mean? And, and I would say that, I would say it all the time, bro. Like, like, like, you know, like, if the actors was, was, was taking their time to get out of makeup, like, yo, y'all gotta hurry up or they gonna fire me. You know what I mean? And, and, and one day, he took me to the side and he was like, yo, stop saying that. You know, and I was like, I was like, I was like, man, I, I, I was like, man, I really feel that way. He was like, look at me, bro. I'm not, I, I, I would never let that happen to you. I would not let that happen to you. You know what I mean? Like, and, and, and, and, and him, him, him saying that was like, uh, you know, in the moment,

• 45:53Speaker 02

  it was like, well, that's, that's, that's, that's cool. You know, you know, but, but like, but like, man, we gotta go get to work. We're looking, we're looking, you know, he was all, you know, he was always protecting me. Always, you know, um, and, and, and yeah, like to, to, to, to know that, um, that he, he, you know, one of the strongest people, um, was, was, was, was being, you know, was having his strength taken from, from, by this disease. You know, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, like, um, i- i- i- i- it damaged me, bro. Probably irreparably, right? To be honest.

• 46:24Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  But, but I, I love that script, bro. Like, I put, I put so much into that, into that version of the movie. Um, because I felt like, I, I, I felt like I had gotten to know Chad as a performer. Um, you know, so, so, you know, like one of my favorite things to do with Michael B. Jordan, is, is I, I, like, I know him as a performer. Like, I know what he's capable of.

• 46:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Uh, and I know where he can be pushed and what he can handle. You know, so I put, I throw a lot at Mike. You know what I'm saying? Uh, and, and I threw a lot at Chad in the First Panther, but I, but I, but I realized, like, I realized, like, oh man, I was just scratching the surface. You know, you know what I mean? Like, like, like, so, so it was, it was, it was, you know, it was, um, it was, I was just like, I was, it was like a dump truck.

• 47:09Josh Horowitz?

  Now I know what he can do. I'm gonna push him to the limit.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 47:12Josh Horowitz?

  Can you give me one? I know it's a father-son story. Can you give me one scene that you were itching to get him, to see him play in the Wakanda Forever We'll Never See?

• 47:23Speaker 02

  Look, bro, it was, it was, it was like a, it was like a hundred and eighty-page drive, chock full of them, bro. You know what I'm saying? But, but, um.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  You know, like, like the, you know, what, what, the big thing about the script was, was that it was, it was this, it was this thing called the, uh, the Ritual of Eight, where, where, when, when a, when a prince is eight years old, he, he, he has to go spend eight, eight days in the bush with his father. And, and amongst them, amongst those eight days, they don't have, they have to go into the bush without any, without any tools. Um, and, and, and, uh, and, and, and the, the, the, the, the prince has to listen to every, to ask to listen and do everything that's asked of his, of him by his father. But the ru- rule is for those eight days, the prince can ask the, the father any question.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  And the father has to answer, you know, um, so, so, so, you know, and, and, and during the course of those, during the course of those eight days, um, um, Na- Na- Namor launches an attack. Uh, so, so, so that, that was what the, you know, that was what the movie was, you know, like, um, you know, he, he's got, he's got, he's got, he had to deal with, with somebody who was, and it was a different version than Namor in a, in a, in a, in a script, but he had to deal with somebody who was like insanely dangerous. But, but because of this ritual, his son had to be like joined at his hip the whole time, you know, uh, uh, so, so like, you know, while he was engaging in, in, in, in negotiations, fights, and shit, his son was, his son had to be, you know, had to be right there or else they would have to violate this ritual, which had never been broken.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  So that was, that was what the, what the, what the, what the movie was.

• 48:59Josh Horowitz?

  Talk about, talk about raising the stakes. Yeah, no, I hear you. Yeah, I got you.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  It was, it was, it was insane, it was insane, bro. And Chi was gonna kill it, bro, and, and, you know, um, but, but, uh, you know, life, life goes as it goes. And I, and I, I got a chance to, to make a movie about, about women, bro, which is, which, which was, which was so, bro, I love that movie so much, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, like, so, so, you know, um, uh,

• 49:26Josh Horowitz?

  I, I, I, I, I'm not expecting you to say anything about the next Black Panther, but you have said it's gonna be your next, your next film. My, my, my question for you is a really basic one, and I, and I mean this with love. Why are you doing it? You don't need to do it. You've proven yourself in this realm twice. So like, I mean, why is it important to you?

• 49:43Speaker 02

  I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not making movies to prove anything, like, like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, like, um, you know, like, like, I'm, I'm telling, I'm telling, um, I'm telling stories that, that I, that I wanna tell, that I'm obsessed with, that I feel like. You know, like the burning desire to, to, to do. And, um, and, and it's, yeah, it's a, it's a movie that I'm incredibly excited about. You know, like, like, um, so that's really where, that's really the truth of it. You know, like, like, um, you know, like, like, like, I'm not, don't get me wrong. Over the course of making things, do, do, do I, do I have an opportunity to prove things to myself?

• 50:22Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Or, or, or prove things about the marketplace? Absolutely, bro. You know, you know what I mean? Like, like, um, um, yeah, like, like, like, like, yeah, like, like, did I, did I enjoy? Making a movie, um, that was essentially about, about, uh, about powerful black women that were, that were grappling with grief. You know, while, while trying to do incredibly important jobs and, and also, also starring in, in indigenous, Mesoamerican people. Did I have a good time proving that that movie could go make eight hundred million dollars?

• 50:57Josh Horowitz?

  Absolutely.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like, like, like, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It brought me great joy to prove that. But that's not why I was making it. You know, you know what I'm saying? Uh, like, I was making it because I, because I had a story that I was obsessed, obsessed with, you know? Um, and I had an opportunity to do things that I, that I, I learned how to swim in that movie, bro. You know, I've been terrified of the water. You know, and I had, like, you know, I got to live my, I got to live my best, my best James Cameron life, bro. I'm, I'm twenty, I'm twenty feet in the tank, you know, you know what I'm saying? With a bunch of, you know, with a bunch of, with a bunch of black and Mexican folks swimming around. You know what I mean? That, that shit was, that shit was awesome, bro. Like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, um, uh, and I, and I, and I did get a chance to, to, to, to, to move through a, a, an inescapable human emotion that, like, the emotion of grief.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying? Like, I got the chance to move through that and, and, and, and I get to tell that story to my kids. Like, I made a, made a fucking hundred and some odd day movie with a broken heart. You know, you know what I'm saying? And, and, and we did it. You know, you know what I mean? And, and, um, so, so, yeah, bro, I'm, I'm in it for, uh, uh, I'm in it for the, the, the, the, my heart, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, I got this movie on my heart. Um, and yeah, from the outside looking in, you might say, man, why this fucking dude making another one of those? You know? Like, that's not what I, and, and, and, no, but that, no, but that's totally fine. No, like, that's a totally, like, that's a totally, that's a totally.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  Like that question makes sense, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like I don't not and and it's my job as a as a as of as a filmmaker to show why, you know what I mean?

• 52:29Josh Horowitz?

  Make us care as much as you do.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  That person who asked that question who comes who comes to the movie J D, you know what I mean? Like it's my it's my job to it's my job to answer that question, you know what I mean? And I and I'll take out, you know, that that's that's why I get paid, you know, you know what I'm saying? That's why that's that's that's that's why, you know, I show up to work, you know what I mean? And I I do enjoy that, bro, you know?

• 52:50Josh Horowitz?

  How's how's that heart gonna feel on set if and when you get to say call action on Denzel in a Black Panther movie?

• 52:57Speaker 02

  Oof, shit. Be that out of all, you know, the the the the the ten billion people on the planet, how are fucking billion we are now? I'm gonna be the happiest, I'm gonna be the happiest one, bro.

• 53:08Josh Horowitz?

  You written him, you written him a good part? You better. It's Denzel Washington.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  I'm gonna try, bro. Yeah, I'm gonna try.

• 53:16Josh Horowitz?

  Um, okay, I'm gonna a couple of quick things and I promise I'll let you go. Um, you're you're you're an X-Files fan, I take it. So talk to me why that show is so important to you to bring this back?

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Hey, man, I I love it, bro. Like, like, like for for me, um, you know, uh,

• 53:34Speaker 02

  that show that show is that show is what I used to watch with my mom, bro.

• 53:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  Like, um, it's it, you know, it's it's it's it's one of the most beautiful American television shows that are made. I think, um, it's the story of cuz cuz cuz you know, Chris Carter will tell you he was trying to make Koshak the Night Stalker, you know what I'm saying? Like, and it and it's for me, for me, that's what it's all about. It's like when you when you when you as an artist, when you trying to like, trying to like capture something that you were influenced by and you make something totally new. Um, anytime you watch a a a TV show, a movie where there's a skeptic paired with a believer and they trying to solve a case, you know, like something like, you know, True Detective, season one, for instance, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, like, so you know, it it comes up so many times. And then, yeah, bro, that's the show that gave us, that's the show that gave us Vince Gilligan, bro, you know what I'm saying?

• 54:24Josh Horowitz?

  You've been watching Corribus? Pretty great, yeah.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  You know, and I got a chance, I got a chance to talk to Vince Gilligan, bro, and get advice on like how to make television, you know what I mean? Like, was it his show? So like? You know, I'm I'm hyped, bro.

• 54:36Josh Horowitz?

  Like, are you a big mythology? Are you gonna do like the solo episodes? You know, like kind of the bottle episodes or? Cause that that show did both.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  I mean, I mean, it wouldn't be X-Files if we didn't do both, you know?

• 54:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  Um, you know, we intend on having, on having, on having, um, uh, you know, both monsters of the week and also, you know, like, like the overarching overarching conspiracy. You know what I'm saying? Grappling with that. Yeah, but that that's what I'm doing now. You know, you know what I mean? Like Panther comes after that. You know, so, so I'm, you know, I'm blessed to have a job, bro. I'm blessed to be working on things. It's cool. And and it's also like, it's also like nice to have something, um, that has like the pressure of the fans, you know what I'm saying? You know, a lot, a lot of, a lot of really smart people that I don't wanna let down. You know what I mean?

• 55:20Josh Horowitz?

  Um, including Jillian. You spoke, you spoke to Jillian, I heard. Is there the intent to involve them in some way?

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm big fans of her. I'm big fans of David. You know what I mean? You know, that's all I could say.

• 55:33Josh Horowitz?

  Fair enough. Here's my last thing for you, I promise. You mentioned Noah and Chris early on. He's a peer. He's a, you're kind of mentoring each other. I feel like you're.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, peers, bro.

• 55:44Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, come on, you guys are, you guys are.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 55:47Josh Horowitz?

  What do you, what do you learn from what he's doing beyond? Like, there's the tech side, which is obviously he's the top of the game. But there's also the storyteller. What do you learn from watching his work that keeps you on your toes, that pushes you to the next level?

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Every, every, everything, bro. Everything, man, like, like, um, yeah, they have, they have a unique way of working. We share some crew, you know, like, um, but they, they, you know, I think that, that, um, yeah, they, they are incredible guides for, for me and Zanzi in particular. You know, you know what I mean? Like, like, um, I get a lot of guidance from them. They're very generous. But yeah, from his, his technical, um, his technical, uh, uh, I, I mean, honestly, bro.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  I actually learned, I I I learned more from him just like when it comes to storytelling. You know, you know what I'm saying? Like he he's such a brave, he's such a brave storyteller, very brave editor. You know what I mean? Like, like, um, some of the stuff, I I think some of the stuff him and Jen are doing. You know what I mean? Like, like just with, you know, the juxtaposition of images, like the work with montage.

• 56:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  It is so bleeding edge, you know, um, a- a- and his, his ability to trust his audience. You know, um, I think it's really, it's really great. But yeah, like his, his, his, you know, like, like, really like since, since Kubrick's passing, you know, um, uh, you, you need, you need those people, bro, who are, who are like, I like to call them frontliners. You know, you know what I'm saying?

• 57:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Like, like people who, who, who are willing to like go out and like chop at the bush, you know what I mean? Get bit by the bug, you know?

• 57:28Josh Horowitz?

  First in line, I'll take the heat for you guys.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  You know, like, like, like, like, I, like, I love, you know, like, you, you got, you got, you got, um, you know, you got James.

• 57:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Who's doing that for, for, for, you know, for motion capturing, virtual camera. Um, you know, 3D, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, you know, George was that, was that person, right? Who was like, hey, we gotta figure out this sound shit. So he makes Skywalker sound, we gotta figure out this, especially makes ILM, you know, you know, you know what I mean? Like, like, like, like, like, like for him, you know, he's such a frontliner. Um, you know, for, for, for the theatrical experience. Um, for, for, for, uh, film technology. You know, you know, you know what I mean? Like, like in, in, in that, that, that for me, it's, it's in that spirit where I'm like, all right, let's do, let's, let's do the juxtaposition of, uh, you know, Ultra Panavision and 143. You know, it ha- it hasn't been done before. You know what I'm saying?

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Like, let's do it. You know, you know what I'm saying? Cause, cause like, you know, you get courage from people who are, who, who are doing the thing that hasn't been, hasn't been done yet. Um, but not just for the, for the, for the reason of.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Because it hasn't been done yet because they think about the audience.

• 58:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 58:41Speaker 02

  You know, you know, you know, I'm saying I thinking about the audience, thinking about the health of the industry. You know, um.

• 58:47Josh Horowitz?

  Well, now you're one of those guys on the front lines. Welcome to the, welcome to the fight. You're in front now.

• 58:51Speaker 02

  Oh, right. Oh, bro. Appreciate you, man.

• 58:55Josh Horowitz?

  I, I appreciate you. I will be, to be honest, um, I scratched like three percent of what I want to cover. Please come back on the podcast.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, bro. I'll be happy to, man. I'll be happy to.

• 59:05Josh Horowitz?

  You're, you're, you're truly killing it. I'm so happy that Sinners has found this devoted, passionate audience. It's a, it's a phenomenal piece of work and best of luck. This, this silly but worthy award season. You're getting a lot of love and I'm happy for you and Mike and everybody.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you, Josh. Yeah, thank you, man. I'm, I'm, I'm so, I'm so, yeah, I'm so fortunate, bro. And fortunate to have this cast too, bro. Like, like, you know, Mike and, and, and Wumi and Delroy and Haley and Miles and, you know, just down the line, bro. I was so fortunate on this one. I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm, it sucks me to get a chance to talk about the midnight performances, but man, maybe we get some more time next time.

• 59:43Josh Horowitz?

  I would love to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still pissed that Mike didn't get Killmonger Awards love. So let's make it happen for this one. We gotta.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, yeah, yeah. For sure, bro.

• 59:52Josh Horowitz?

  All right.

• 59:54Speaker 02

  But, um, I think that, uh, yeah, it's interesting, bro. Right? Cause, cause, um, uh, I think that like, I think that he has issue with comic, with comic book films.

• 1:00:05Josh Horowitz?

  Well, you've experienced that. I mean, Angela, obviously that was a bit of a heartbreak and you know, it's, it's, it is what it is.

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I mean, she was, it was like, it was, it was so lovely that she was recognized though.

• 1:00:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, she got, like, got to the party.

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. But, um, nah, man, what a performance. But yeah, bro, Josh, love the.

• 1:00:22Josh Horowitz?

  I appreciate you. All right. Talk to you soon, I hope.

• 1:00:26Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't.

• 1:00:38Speaker 05

  Do this by Josh.

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• 1:00:58Speaker 05

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  We cover everything from infamous cases like Casey Anthony to the bizarre and complex crimes right here in our home state, like the shocking murder of FSU professor Dan Markell.

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