Unmasking Masculinity With Lewis Howes

The word authenticity has been so co-opted and commodified, it's now almost impossible to use it without sounding hacky. But the sentiment behind the word remains beautiful. To me it means living honestly and with integrity. It means the courage and self-confidence to be open and vulnerable. It's what it means to live, breathe and move in alignment with your truest, highest self. I do my best to live authentically. I strive to inject this sensibility into the content I create. And it’s a consistent theme of this podcast. Intellectually we understand the importance of living authentically. However, we all find ourselves — myself included — nonetheless projecting a version of ourselves onto the world. Not the raw truth but an edited impression of who we are and what we want others to see; a facsimile of identity, custom tailored to suit the expectations of our social environment. In other words, we all wear masks. We can characterize this behavior as dishonest. But it’s also just human. We're all guilty to a certain degree. We do it because we’re afraid. Because we’re insecure. And because honesty and vulnerability are terrifying. If people really knew me, I would be unlovable. The impulse to hide our fears and flaws is normal. Not only is it easier to don a facade, it's how we've been conditioned to behave for as long as we can remember. But when we inhabit the role we've been socially programmed to play at the cost our truest selves, we disconnect from both intimacy and ourselves, undercutting our ability to connect with others and inhabit the best of who we are are and what we have to offer. As counter-intuitive as it may sound, the more we can summon the courage to shed our masks – masks we have been wearing for so long and so persistently were not even consciously aware of them – in exchange for being open, honest, and vulnerable, the more integrated, whole, secure, confident, and ultimately authentic we ultimately become. It's scary. But overcoming this fear is the first step to truly blazing a path to becoming a fully integrated human. It's the journey to becoming whole. At peace with yourself. Empowered. Self-actualized. And ultimately, free. This is the subject of today’s conversation. To shepard us through it is my friend Lewis Howes, host of the very popular School of Greatness Podcast, NY Times bestselling author of The School of Greatness*, and the man behind a brand new book hitting stores this week entitled The Mask of Masculinity: How Men Can Embrace Vulnerability, Create Strong Relationships, and Live Their Fullest Lives*. A former professional football player and USA team handball Olympic hopeful who bottomed out before blossoming into a successful online entrepreneur, Lewis defies the stereotype that typically accompanies most successful alpha males. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  Why do men wear different masks that hold them back? Why do men cause a lot of resentment, anger, and conflict in relationships with business, friends, family, intimate partners? Why do we do this as men? Not all men, but why in general do some men do this? And I realize that a lot of this conditioning over time from your parents saying, like, "Don't cry, don't be a crybaby, be a man, be this," your coaches, "Be a man, get back up, don't show pain," from the confusion of relationships where women want a bad guy, and the bad guys are rewarded in high school, to then they want a sensitive person, but then they want you to be strong, they want you to show your...

• 1:50Speaker 01

  So it's constantly conflicting. And I think, yes, we all have our own responsibilities to be the best person we can be, but when society, culture, family, friends, girlfriends, teammates are starting to have this pressure constantly to feel accepted, we need to be a certain way, to fit in, we have to fit in with what they want us to be, not who we truly are.

• 2:16Rich Roll?

  That's Lewis Howes, this week, on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:31Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening? How are you? This is your friendly neighborhood podcast host, Rich Roll. Welcome or welcome back to my podcast, the show where I do my best to have in-depth, meaningful conversations that matter with some of the brightest, most pioneering minds in health, fitness, nutrition, athletics, medicine, social entrepreneurship, entertainment, and so much more. I want to talk about a word that gets tossed around pretty cavalierly these days. Authenticity. It's a weird one, right? It's a great word, but it's also been so co-opted and commodified that even using

• 3:15Rich Roll?

  it now kind of feels a little bit hacky. And that's kind of a bummer because what that word, authenticity, represents is actually beautiful. It's a beautiful sentiment. I suppose there are a variety of interpretations and definitions, but to me, it means living honestly with integrity, aligning your actions with your words. It means the courage and the self-confidence to be open, to be vulnerable, to live, breathe, and move in alignment with your truest, highest self. And it's what I aspire to. It's something I do my best to inject into my work, and it's a consistent theme of this podcast.

• 4:00Rich Roll?

  And yet, it's undeniable that we all wear masks of some form or another. Even the most well-intentioned among us, myself, of course, included, project a version of ourselves on the world, not the raw truth, but in edited facsimile, custom tailored to suit. The expectations of our social environment. Case in point, this is probably take four of this introduction. Why didn't I just put out take one? Well, because I felt like it wasn't good enough. It didn't reflect the quality of the words that I wanted to express to you guys. So I guess I'm wearing a mask right now. But in any event, in other words, we show the world an impression of ourselves, what we want the world to see.

• 4:42Rich Roll?

  And on some level, I suppose this is, or it could be characterized as dishonest, but it's also just human. We all do it to a degree, one form or another. We do it because we're afraid, because we're insecure, because honesty and vulnerability are terrifying. And we think we're doing the right thing, upholding that social contract by embodying what it means to be masculine or feminine. But these notions are false. They're misguided and they're often dangerous, disconnecting us from our potential, the best version of ourselves. And as counterintuitive as it may sound,

• 5:24Rich Roll?

  the more that we can summon the courage to remove these masks, masks that, you know, we've been wearing for so long and so persistently that we're not even consciously aware of them, and shed them in exchange for being open, for being raw, honest, for being vulnerable, for being who we really are, as scary as that sounds. I think the more integrated, the more whole, secure, confident, and dare I say, authentic, we ultimately become. And with that comes a sense of being fully integrated, a fully integrated human being, of being whole, a sense of being at peace with yourself, empowered. And that's freedom.

• 6:09Rich Roll?

  You know, I've traveled this road a bit, very imperfectly, but enough to know that it is indeed a beautiful path to blaze.

• 6:18Rich Roll?

  In any event, this is the subject of today's conversation. To shepherd us through it is my friend Lewis Howes, who is the host of the very popular School of Greatness podcast. He's a New York Times bestselling author of the book, The School of Greatness, and the guy behind a brand new book coming out this week called The Mask of Masculinity. We're going to get into it in a minute, but first I wanted to pause, take a moment to say, "Thank you." You know why? Because we did it. We exceeded my Charity Water fundraising goal of raising $51,000. In fact, as of the date I'm recording this, which is October 26, we have raised over $57,000 to bring clean water projects to those in need. To put it

• 7:03Rich Roll?

  in proper perspective, that means that about 2,000 people will have access to clean water for the very first time. And that's not even counting future generations. Basically, you, all of you guys, the listeners, literally answered the call and are breathing life into communities, transforming their lives forever, which, I don't know about you, I think that's about the coolest thing that I can imagine. I couldn't have done it without each and every one of you. So again, thank you. Scott Harrison thanks you. Charity Water thanks you. And everyone who will soon benefit from your extreme generosity, thanks you. I'm extremely grateful for all of you.

• 7:52Rich Roll?

  Okay, Lewis Howes. Lewis and I both started out our podcast right around the same time, five years ago. We've sort of grown up alongside of each other on this journey. I've been on his show twice, and this is his third appearance on my show. And I can honestly say, this is the best, most open, dynamic, and honest of the three conversations that I've had with Lewis. We cover our respective podcasting adventures. We talk about the importance of storytelling, of telling our story, your story, as a catalyst for positive change. Then we delve into this issue of projection, why we wear these masks, why we don't talk

• 8:34Rich Roll?

  about what we're ashamed of, what we fear, especially men, by first exploring some traumatic aspects of Lewis's upbringing that led him to don certain masks and the cathartic Freeing journey that he embarked on to attempt to remove them and how this led Lewis to thinking more deeply about these issues and ultimately to writing about them in his new book. But at its core, this is a conversation about reframing vulnerability, upending the notion that vulnerability is a weakness and reframing it as a superpower. Because your ability to own your story and face your fears is ultimately your greatest

• 9:16Rich Roll?

  strength. I should point out that although this one focuses on the masks that men wear, on redefining what it means to be truly masculine, the themes and the topics that we explore throughout this conversation are applicable to all. Okay, so this is me and Lewis Howes.

• 9:39Rich Roll?

  Lewis Howes, man, in the house?

• 9:40Speaker 01

  I'm excited, man.

• 9:42Rich Roll?

  You, uh, you hold a special place in my heart because we started this podcast journey basically at almost exactly the same time.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  You started a couple of months before me, right?

• 9:51Rich Roll?

  Maybe, yeah, like I think I had like a two month lead. I was the big expert at that point.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  You were, man. I was like, what do I do, Rich? What do I do?

• 9:57Rich Roll?

  But I remember vividly, you had just moved to LA and we had been introduced. And, and, and so I made my way over to West Hollywood, your pad, and you were in like some temporary apartment situation. And you broke out like the crappiest little mics, like tiny little mic. And I'm like, all right, let's do this. And, and we had a great conversation. And then we talked about podcasting and like what you, what your vision for what you were doing was that time. And it was cool, man. We connected then. And then we've sort of been on each other's shows a couple of times. And we've been on this, you know, journey separately, but kind of together. Like I'm always checking in on you. What's he doing?

• 10:39Rich Roll?

  How's he growing? Wow. And you've just exploded. So I'm proud of you. It's really cool to see.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  It's been fun. Well, I always look at your stuff because you have the best newsletters. You have like the cleanest design. And I'm always like, gosh, he's got such good design. So I always appreciate the way you deliver your message.

• 10:53Rich Roll?

  I appreciate that, man. I put a lot of time into it, probably too much. You know, but like, I like the details.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  OCD, right?

• 11:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, a little bit, man. To my, to my detriment at times, I think, you know? You're, and you're, you are, you would always say to me, man, you gotta move forward. Like, just keep going, keep, you know, you let go a little bit, let people in, you gotta systematize. And I would like clutch on, like, trying to control every little detail. And I've gotten, I've grown a lot in that regard. Like, I've gotten a lot better. I have a team now, and I have support, and it's been amazing. But I still have that, like, impulse, you know, that I'm trying to overcome a little bit.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  I hear you, man. It's hard for me. I wanted to, because when I started years ago in the online marketing space, I did everything myself, from the newsletter, to the social media, to the customer support, to the sales and marketing webinars. And I wanted to learn it all. But I think as I've let go more and more, it's like my business has grown.

• 11:42Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  So even though it's like, oh, people make mistakes, and I get frustrated sometimes, but it's like, you know what? I want to be able to grow as fast, and I gotta be okay with some of those mistakes, because other people are gonna make mistakes.

• 11:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, yeah, that's ultimately how, you gotta, you gotta let go to grow.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:56Rich Roll?

  Right? And so now you got, like, all these people that come over to your apartment every day.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:00Rich Roll?

  So, like, work. Do you ever feel like it's, like, incringing, like, encroaching on your actual, like, your personal, private space?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:08Rich Roll?

  Like, are you able to, like, create a boundary around that? Because they're literally, like, walking around your bedroom.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Not in my bedroom.

• 12:13Rich Roll?

  Kind of, but I mean, it's all right there.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Close.

• 12:15Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? How many people, like, you, you got, like, five or six people over there, basically, every day?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we got eight to 10 total, but half of them are in other cities.

• 12:23Rich Roll?

  You're gonna have to get a real office, I think, at some point.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  They're in, they're in other cities, so it's okay.

• 12:27Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  There's, like, five or six here locally. It just depends. On the record days, then we have more people in there, but if they're not, if they're not recording a podcast, then it's my space. I think, like, if I grew to three to six more people, I'd probably get another space and, like, just do a little coworking thing and figure it out.

• 12:44Rich Roll?

  Right. So, the dogs are barking. Hey, man, it's real life.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  It's real life, baby.

• 12:48Rich Roll?

  We're living authentically here.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  We're in Calabasas, Malibu, you know?

• 12:52Rich Roll?

  So I'm interested, before we get in, we're gonna unpack the book and, you know, your journey with masculinity and all of that. And you did a great job with this book. Congratulations.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 13:00Rich Roll?

  I'm excited for you.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  You're in at the first page.

• 13:02Rich Roll?

  Thanks for dropping my name in on there. But before we do that, like, let's just camp out a little bit on the podcasting thing. Like, I'm just interested in what this journey has meant to you, like, where you see it going. You know, I think, I don't think either of us could have foreseen at that time when we first met that, that, you know, each of our shows would have the reach that they have. And, you know, I certainly have thoughts and opinions about, like, what it's meant to me, how it's changed my life, and how I approach it, how I think about it. You know, what is my responsibility to the audience, and to finding the right guests, and all of that. Like, how do you think about all that?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's a lot I want to unpack, but for me, it's, I mean, it's almost been five years for you, because I think you started in October.

• 13:44Rich Roll?

  And in November, I think.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  And in November, because it's five years for me and end of January.

• 13:48Rich Roll?

  Right, so, yeah, we're coming up on the, I can't believe it.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Five years, man.

• 13:51Rich Roll?

  It's crazy.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  It has changed my life. It's changed everything about my business, my life, my relationships. And it's been an amazing platform, because I've always wanted to share my message, but I didn't know the best way to deliver it. So this has allowed me to have impact on people. And we do, you do retreats, I do events. And just to see, you know, almost a thousand people come together who found the podcast, and found meaning in some insights they heard on the podcast. And to say, I'm gonna fly around the world to come to this experience, to meet other people who listen as well, C speakers. It's so amazing. I just don't know anywhere else I could, could have done that. And deliver it in such an intimate way, where people are listening for an hour.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  You know, have headphones on, or in their car, their commute, their workouts. When they're going to bed, when they're waking up, some of the most intimate times for people, they're listening. And when you say, you know, I really think about my audience and curate the guests carefully, because I'm sure, like you, I have a lot of friends who I'm, like, close with, who hound me, and like, hey, man, when are you gonna have me on?

• 14:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  And even not that close to friends, but just, like, well-known business people. or successful entrepreneurs or whatever it may be. There's a guy right now who's messaging me a lot, who's got a book coming out, who's just messaging me like, I'm not going to take no for an answer. And I'm like, listen, I say no to my family members, to my friends who I like, love. And it's not about you, it's about the community. And it's not about me and our relationship, it's about the community. And there have been times in the past where I had people on because I felt pressured to, and it wasn't effective. It didn't get results from my community and they questioned it. They were like, why'd you do this? So I've learned to really make sure that I'm aware of who I'm having on, the topic, the conversation, the flow of it,

• 15:40Speaker 01

  to serve my audience in the biggest, the biggest way. Because if not, I feel like it's doing a disservice to the audience.

• 15:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I'm, I was just talking to David about this the other day, like I'm in the same situation. And I'm a people pleaser by nature. And I have people who, you know, I have somebody who's messaging me a lot right now. And, and I feel like, and I'm like a conflict avoidant person. So I just don't.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Don't reply.

• 16:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like, but I feel like, I'm like, please don't ask me to be, you know, it's, it puts me in an awkward situation because like you, it's like, I'm thinking about the audience. What is the best, you know, who, who are the best people that I can bring on? And, you know, I don't do, you do more episodes per week than I do. So I'm looking at, okay, so that, that leaves me 52 people a year.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  You're doing one a week.

• 16:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I do. Sometimes I do a second one, but those are usually like Q and As that I've done or things like that.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  So you need 52 of the highest quality individuals.

• 16:33Rich Roll?

  And, and it's not, it's not like the most famous person or the most accomplished. It's like, who's the right fit? Who can I gel? Like, who excites me? It's just as much about like, who, like I've learned to trust my intuition and I've made that mistake of, everybody says you need this person on and I'm like,

• 16:49Speaker 01

  If you're not excited though.

• 16:50Rich Roll?

  And then I do it. And then because I'm not as into it as maybe somebody else is, then it ends up being lackluster and it doesn't deliver. It doesn't land.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  That's the challenge too. I've got my publisher is actually trying to send me other authors that they publish as well. They're like, well, you have this person on and this person on. And it's kind of like they expect me to do it. And I'm like, Listen, my audience, you know, if I'm not interested, if I'm not excited, if it doesn't make me curious, then my audience isn't going to be excited either.

• 17:17Rich Roll?

  They'll know, they'll see through it right there.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  And then they kind of make me feel bad and pressure me more and I'm like, guys, come on.

• 17:22Rich Roll?

  Well, it's a, it's a problem of success because it now, like I remember in the beginning, it's like I'm scouring the earth trying to get somebody to come on who will say yes. And now it's an embarrassment of riches because you get to choose, you get to choose and that comes with it. And that's amazing. And I get emails from publicists like pitching book and all that kind of stuff.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 17:41Rich Roll?

  You have access now that I didn't have. Uh, or if I tweet somebody like I can get a response and it didn't used to be that way. But that carries with it the responsibility to make sure that you're serving the audience and what's in their best interest and how do you curate, you know, these guests to create an experience that, you know, takes you from one guest to the next and creates kind of a thematic through line with what you're trying to accomplish.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Do you feel like you've lost any friends because you've said no to people or like people stopped talking to you because you wanted to have them on or?

• 18:12Rich Roll?

  I mean, I don't know if it's gotten that bad, but you know, it definitely, it's just awkward, you know? It was, it's just awkward. I was at a, I spoke at a conference, uh, a couple of days ago and there were a lot of people there. It was, you know, it was like a thousand people and it was amazing. And I, there's nothing more gratifying than spending a couple of hours afterwards, like talking to everybody who comes up and like, I want to give everybody the most attention I can because they're telling me, you know, their, their personal stories, you know? And that's a beautiful thing that you want to honor and cherish. But there's the occasional person who then, you know, gives you the card. I'd love to be a guest on the show. It's like, it's not a public.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Or gives you their book or whatever, yeah.

• 18:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And it's, and that's nice, you know, like if I had a book, I would do the same thing probably, but it's not a public access service, you know what I mean?

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:59Rich Roll?

  And it's easy for me to like.

• 19:03Rich Roll?

  Not be as mindful about that boundary as I should be and I get myself into trouble and I'm trying to learn to be better because it is about the audience, right?

• 19:12Speaker 01

  It is, man. Otherwise you'll lose the audience.

• 19:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, ultimately, you know, it works across purposes with what you're trying to do. But you've grown this thing into like a massive enterprise.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  It's been powerful, man. I had no idea like you that it would take off this way and you know, my last two books are because of the podcast, the information I gained from the interviews I did, I turned into books, you know, events, courses, programs, speaking, you know, all these, getting on Ellen, you know, all these things have happened because of the podcast. They wouldn't have happened without the podcast.

• 19:44Rich Roll?

  It was a, it was a, I think we were at, you know, it's the one, I look at it like it's the one time in my life where I feel like I was at the right place at the right time. It wasn't cool when we started, but it was, we were on the cusp of it becoming something that nobody could have foreseen because I think at that time, what people don't remember or realize is that podcasting was around from 2006, somewhere around then, and it just kind of was a stagnant thing, you know, it was kind of growing, but like no one was really listening, no one was catching on. And when I started, I didn't think of it, you know, I didn't think of us being like early adopters.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, because we were like eight years late.

• 20:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it had been going on, but there was no indication that this was on the cusp of becoming a mainstream way to consume content, you know, and what's special about it is what you said earlier, which is, it is so intimate, you know, it's the one form of media that you can consume while you're doing something else and people have their earbuds on and you're, you're like right into their brain, you know, it's crazy. And I'm sure people say this to you all the time, like, oh, you know, I go to bed with you every night or I listen to you when I'm cooking or on the treadmill or when I'm commuting every day and, and a relationship develops, you know, and I know this because I listen to other podcasts and I feel like I'm friends with these hosts that I've never met. There's something really like, you know, powerful about that and I think it is important as

• 21:03Rich Roll?

  a host to, to remember that and make sure that you're honoring that all the time.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 21:08Rich Roll?

  And it's easy to get, you can get starry eyed and, you know, chase these people who look great on paper, but not necessarily, are not necessarily the best people for the show. And I found, and I'm interested in what you think about this, like. It's super fun to interview famous people. I mean, don't get me wrong, like that's like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm sitting and talking to this person. You know, I can't believe they agreed to do this. But they're so seasoned at doing interviews that it's really difficult to

• 21:35Speaker 01

  They don't open up there.

• 21:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cuz they're just like, okay, they're gonna do their spiel and I feel like you almost have to exhaust them or you gotta interrupt and throw them off their game or do something like, how can I make this different or unique? Like, how can I approach this from a different angle? And that can be difficult. So sometimes those interviews end up being not as impactful just because it feels like it's on the surface, you know?

• 21:58Speaker 01

  I agree. That's why I have a process every time before I interview someone. I ask them a couple of questions to get them ready to open up. And I ask them, is there anything off limits before we start? I build rapport, we're connecting, hanging out, but then I say, okay, is there anything off limits that you don't wanna talk about? And usually, most of the time, they say no. If they say yes, then I say, well, usually that thing will actually be the most impactful thing we talk about. So I try to get them to say yes to the thing they don't wanna talk about to talk about. And then I ask them, okay, do I have permission to take this anywhere and everywhere to make this the most impactful thing you've ever done? And I just give it a beat and usually they're like, oh, okay, this is about to be something interesting.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  And then I say, what would make this the most powerful interview you've ever done? What do we have to do, say, go, be? And then I think just constantly kind of confirming and grounding into that, like, this is gonna be something different. That's helped me before trying to like pull something out of them. It's like, they're already in like an open state, I feel like. It's been really a

• 23:04Rich Roll?

  That's, that's smart, man. I like that. That's interesting.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, ask, ask the person, is there anything off limits?

• 23:10Rich Roll?

  I definitely do that cuz I want them to feel comfortable and I want them to know like, hey, man, I'm not here to burn you. Like, I want, and I say like, look, when we're done with this, if you, you know, a day later, you're like, I wish I didn't say this thing or I misspoke about this, can you change, like, I'm, yeah, man, I'm like, you know, I'm not here to mischaracterize you. That's not what this is about. Like, I just wanna create that sense of comfort. But I like that, that follow-up line of questions. It's interesting.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it helps.

• 23:36Rich Roll?

  Have you, have you

• 23:41Rich Roll?

  Been in that situation where somebody's on your show, they're well-known, but they're not really like, they don't totally know who you are, what you do. And so they're like, what am I doing here? Like, my publicist told me to be here, but like, I had a couple of those ones.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had Meatloaf on. And that was interesting because he was more just like constantly talking about his like new record or whatever, his new CD. And he was like constantly talking about it. And I was like, okay, let's talk about other stuff. And if you're, if you fascinate my audience, I'm sure they'll support you. But if you just talk about the thing the whole time, like if I was just here talking about, get my book, get my book, like every 10 seconds, it'd be like a boring interview. So it's almost like, don't talk about the thing you're trying to promote. And give such amazing value that people are like, I want to support this person. Like whatever they have. Usually we have authors on where we're selling books, whatever, promoting books. And yeah, and I think he's older, he's just kind of like, you know, doing his thing, whatever.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  But he was still great, you know, it was just.

• 24:42Rich Roll?

  It's, it's, I mean, look, you know, we both have these outlets. And so when people have books coming out, like you do, like they want to get it out there. And like, I'm happy to oblige if I like the person and I'm interested in the book is good and I'm interested in what they have to say. But, but I'm not here to be just your publicity service or whatever. So yeah, it has to be, it has to be a blend like that.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Add value. Give me 90, 95% of all value and then we'll talk about a thing for 5%. And then I'll do a big push around it, you know? And the more valuable the interview is, I'm going to promote it like crazy. If it's not that interesting to me, I kind of like barely put it out there. I'm just kind of like, eh, here you guys go, you know? But if I love it, I tell my team, like, we got to make three inspirational videos around this. We got to make like all the quote cards, like everything and blow it up and really wow the person. So they'll share it. So that's what we really try to focus on.

• 25:35Rich Roll?

  Well, you've got the internet figured out.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Try, man. I don't know. I'm trying to catch up to your design quality, you know?

• 25:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm lagging in terms of like how I, how I utilize and leverage the internet. I mean, I don't know, you know, I just. I could probably benefit from putting a little more energy and thought into it, but you know, I don't know.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  I have to do what feels right to me also, I think. I think think less about it.

• 25:58Rich Roll?

  When you, when you look back on, on, how many episodes have you done now?

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Five forty, I believe.

• 26:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So like you've, like you started two months after me, but I'm, I'm at, there's a lot more should come up. I think I'm at three twenty or something like that. So you put out like quite a few more.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  We do two interviews a week, Monday, Wednesday interviews, and then like a five minute story. I'm starting to do more stories, like metaphors, parables, things like that.

• 26:23Rich Roll?

  Alma, come on, come here, girl.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  She's fun. Uh, and the story is actually really effective. Cause I'm also like, there's only so many things I can come up with myself and like inspire, motivate. And so I'm trying to find more stories that I didn't even think of that are just great stories that people, that can relate to people's lives right now. And it's been really effective. So.

• 26:45Rich Roll?

  When you look back on those 500 plus episodes, like what did you, like what, what mistakes do you think? Other than what we already talked about, like, do you think back and like, I wish I hadn't done that or I could have saved a lot of time or?

• 26:57Speaker 01

  I wish I would have done videos sooner. Because.

• 27:01Rich Roll?

  I remember when you started that and you were like, I spent a lot of money.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  I spent a lot of money, man. All the gear, all the full-time editor. I mean, it was a lot. And just trying to build up YouTube and all these things. I started at the end of last year, so about a year, a little over a year and a half with video. But I remember like Jonathan Fields had a video podcast starting and then he switched to just audio.

• 27:22Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  He's still audio, I believe. And I remember being like, gosh, everyone's just going audio because it's so much work. And I was like, that's why I think I need to do video because not many people are doing it. And it gives me another piece of content I can share on Facebook and YouTube and build other channels. So I'll just decided to invest in it. But in terms of, I wish I would, you know, I remember thinking like, This was gonna take off. I just had a feeling, because I was talking to Derek Halpern and Pat Flynn and a few other people who had podcasts back in 2012, 2011. And I remember like hearing them say like, wow, this is starting to pick up.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Like before there was any news about podcasts or before Serial and all these things, they're like, this is picking up for me. Like, I didn't expect it to be, and it's picking up. And I just felt like this was around, you know, four or five years ago. This is when smartphones, everyone was getting an iPhone, it was more accessible, the podcast app's more accessible for people. And I was just like, I think it's gonna take off. You came out with it, a few of the, John Lee Dumas came out with it around the same time, I think. Maybe a few months before you. And I was just like, I'm gonna do a podcast. And I told myself, I'm not gonna listen to anyone's show. I think what I did well was not listen to anyone else's. That could either hurt me or help me. I think it helped me because I was like, I came from a place of what's the thing I would want to hear? How would I want to hear the intro? The reads, everything, how would the flow be if I was a listener?

• 28:49Speaker 01

  And so I wasn't skewed one way or another to what other people did. I wasn't influenced. I just said, I'm gonna create the podcast I'd want to listen to. And I'm grateful for that. I think, I don't know if I changed much, maybe have nicer equipment early on and, you know, do video, but I didn't know what was gonna happen.

• 29:04Rich Roll?

  No, I mean, you know, you grow into it and you evolve, you know what I mean? I think that's an important lesson for anybody who's looking to create anything. Like, go back and look at that person's first whatever, you know what I mean? Like, you listen to my first episode, your first episode, you look at anybody, you know, any filmmaker's first video on YouTube, whatever, like, you'll realize like there's an arc and it's okay. You know, you don't have to have it all figured out. And when people ask me, what's my gear? It's like, I don't usually answer.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter.

• 29:33Rich Roll?

  First of all, you can figure that out on the internet in five minutes. And it's not about that, you know, it's about like, what is it that you're, you want to express and just start doing that. And if it, if it clicks for you, you'll figure out the rest and you'll grow into it.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  That's it. Yeah, I didn't know how it was gonna do. I was like, I'm gonna do this for a year, once a week and see how it does. And then I was like, okay, I'm gonna do another year twice a week.

• 29:52Rich Roll?

  So what, where do you see it going? Just keep doing it or you have a plan for growing, like?

• 29:59Speaker 01

  I feel like it's it's going to continue to grow, but it's harder to grow as well because there's so many other podcasts. Yeah, I mean, if we were starting now, forget about it. It would be so hard, man. I know. So hard, but there's podcasts that are launching right now that are getting to the top and staying there because they're so different and so unique. And that's great, I think. Yeah, it's great. You know? Bring more awareness to the podcast space.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know, I feel like I personally, I want to be just a couple of years ahead of the curve of what everyone else is is willing to do because podcasting, when we did it, was hard to do. Not people weren't doing it because they didn't understand it. It was still challenging to get it up. And I was just like, in a couple of years, this is going to take off. I just had that feeling like it's going to take off. And so I'm thinking of, okay, how can I continue to make this the foundation and grow the podcast, but leverage it into other things like books, in other talk shows, TV shows, documentaries, Netflix shows, things like that, where I can find and curate talent and information, and then build something even more beautiful around that one piece of content.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  But what's that one person I could do a documentary on that could be another multimillion dollar brand or a book series or something that's different that people? It's hard to write a book. You know, it takes a couple of years, takes a while to launch it, to do the whole traditional publishing thing, it's challenging. Most people aren't willing to do that stuff. Most people aren't willing to do documentaries like your friends have done. And that's where I want to start going into because I believe that content, we can continue to create powerful, meaningful content and spend a little bit of money into it to make it even better and stand out. That's going to be the difference maker. Mm hmm. So are you actively developing some projects like that? I'm in the middle of a documentary right now. Yeah, I mean, I hired a film crew.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  They've there, they've been filming the last couple of months of a process, won my live event and. You remember the movie The Secret? So I'm kind of doing The Secret on steroids, but mainstream, not like Woo Wee. And I'm developing that right now where, you know, this is the 10 year anniversary of me getting injured playing professional football. It's actually a month ago when I got injured 10 years ago. And I'm doing, I did this big event in Columbus, Ohio called the Summit of Greatness. So I brought my entire movement back to Columbus where I'm from.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  And then I'm launching a book here in the next month. And then I'm getting an award for the philanthropy, philanthropist of the year award for Pencils of Promise in December. And I'm working on a few other projects in between. So I was just like, I want to capture all this three months, like the press, the book tour, like the, the, uh, the event, everything. And I think it's going to mostly be tailored around this event because we had some unbelievable footage and great content. We did sit down interviews with every speaker, with them on stage, with the attendees, got stories of the attendees. So I think there's something there, you know, Tony Robbins did great with his documentary, I'm Not Your Guru. And then my friends, I think you know Joshua Fields Milburn from Minimalism.

• 33:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're, they're docked it great.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Crushed it.

• 33:08Rich Roll?

  Blew them up.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Blew them up. I don't know if he, I don't know if it's public, the numbers, but essentially they almost 10x their download numbers.

• 33:16Rich Roll?

  Well, their podcast, their podcast exploded in the wake of that. Cause they had it for a while and then suddenly they were like, you know, they were like in the top 40 or 50 on iTunes.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Eight months, yeah. And they said it was because of the documentary on Netflix and their book tours were sold out all around the world and everything. And I was like, yeah, these two guys in our space, I think did it well. Tony Robbins, I heard, I don't know the numbers, but I heard it tripled his business since documentary came out. From his events to everything else, his courses, everything.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  And then Minimalism, those guys are just crushed with that. And I think they're doing another documentary. So I think that is a space that is so untapped because one.

• 33:57Rich Roll?

  They moved here from Montana.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  They moved here, they had to do more content.

• 33:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  So I think Netflix, what Facebook's doing, Facebook Watch, I'm working on a show and developing it's still not public yet, but we're developing a show with them right now. I think. It's because it's people don't understand how to get on Netflix. It's not like an easy thing where you can just upload a piece of content. You know, you're working with agents and distributors and all these things and they're expensive to get a good piece of content. You know, people aren't willing to invest. I'm willing to invest in spending a couple hundred grand on a book development and spending a few hundred thousand dollars on a documentary, which may not even be anything. It might just be a marketing piece for next year's event if I can't sell it because I haven't sold it yet.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  But I just believe in this vision that if I'm willing to invest in high quality content and great storytelling, that moves the consciousness forward in a positive way and helps humanity. I just believe it's gonna work out.

• 34:54Rich Roll?

  Well, I think you're well on your way. I mean, your, your, your summit of greatness, was this the third year that you've done that?

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Second year, yeah.

• 35:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, just seeing clips that you shared like on Instagram and stuff like that.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  I know, I need to post more, but yeah.

• 35:06Rich Roll?

  Pretty crazy, man. And, and I could see the development from the first year already, just in terms of like your production value and all of that kind of stuff, so.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:15Rich Roll?

  It's cool, man.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  It's been fun. Yeah, I've never, I never, never did a podcast, never wrote a book before, never did a live event. I was not like an event guy. Uh, never done a documentary or movie, but I'm just like, I want to do things that excite me, that are challenging, but also that prove to myself that I don't have to have done something before in order to make something amazing and great, that I can learn on the go. And I can also create something that I would want to consume. So again, the podcast I created because it's a thing I wish I had growing up. The book I created because it's the wish I, the, the book I could have read. The event is the, the event I wish I could have attended. All these things and the documentary is the documentary that I would watch. That's what I focus on.

• 35:57Rich Roll?

  Well, that's the only, only valid way to approach any creative endeavor. I mean, it has to be from the heart and what you want to express. If you start pulling and like trying to figure out what an audience wants, that is, it's not gonna work.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So, so who knows? I take a, you know, I tried to develop a magazine last year, Greatness Magazine.

• 36:16Rich Roll?

  I remember you talking to me about that.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe we interviewed you for, we did three full issues that we never released. We had them all complete. They look amazing. They're so beautiful. Um, but it was like right around the time when the Apple like magazine app or news app transitioned to something else. And I was just like, this is taking so much of our time, so much money. And I don't know if we're gonna make any money from this. So I spent all this money and six months of time and energy. And just canned it. I was like, we're just putting it on pause. It was like two years ago. And I'm actually thinking about resurrecting and bringing it back for next year.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  So we'll see. I just like to do things that don't make money, but they're fun for me now. But I also feel like, you know. What's the thing that will attract the most influential people in the world who could add value to my audience? I think having a magazine could feed the ego of all the publicists. And be like, yeah, we want to get our client on a greatness magazine, right? If you're gonna put them on the cover, sure, we'll give you an interview. So it's like, I feel like that might be my way to get like Will Smith of the world, the Rocks, the Jim Carrys, all those people. Because they'll do a magazine cover, but they may never do a podcast.

• 37:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I don't know. I think Jim Carrey might, might, I think Jim Carrey might be more willing to do a long form podcast than a magazine interview.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  True.

• 37:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Based upon that viral, did you see that?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  I saw, yeah. Well, here's the thing. I was talking to his publicist about two, three weeks before all this stuff came out. Cause I've been trying to get him on for a while. And I really, he's been one of my top three since I started the podcast. I would love to interview him because I think it'd be fascinating. And I was on the phone with his publicist. We were like, she was like, I might be able to make it happen. I was like, I'll do whatever it takes. I was offering like $10,000 to donate to his charity. I was like, whatever. Cause I believe someone like that, the information that we, we do together. Is gonna impact so many millions of people that it's worth me investing just to be able to spread some type of positive. Message. It's like, it's worth it to me.

• 38:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So what happened?

• 38:25Speaker 01

  He was on, he was going like to Toronto Film Festival or something. And he was like, maybe we can have it happen there. And I was like, I'll pay you more if we can do it in LA. So I don't have to travel. And I've been following up and she hasn't come back to me. So we'll see.

• 38:38Rich Roll?

  Well, you know, these things are, as I'm sure you know, like these, timing is so important. These things like. You know, I've done interviews that took me two years to, it's a schedule. Cause you and I, we do, we only do them live, right? So it's like, you know, when's the person gonna be here and are you available or when you're, you know, whatever, like it just, these things are percolating all the time.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Who's the biggest guest you got that you tried to get for a long time? That you're like

• 39:02Rich Roll?

  Um, I don't know. I got a few that I'm working on right now, you know.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Who's someone you did have that you were like, took two years or whatever?

• 39:09Rich Roll?

  Um, let's see, who, uh, Moby was cool. You know, he was great. Um, Travis Barker was awesome.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Sweet.

• 39:15Rich Roll?

  Uh, I don't know, a couple of people like that.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  You're in like the Malibu like influencer crowd out here. So I feel like it's easy. You like a little pocket of all these people that live out here.

• 39:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but like it's, it's different because you don't, you don't run into people on the street, you know, everything's spread out, out here. Like, yeah, I know people around here and stuff like that, but that's not always how it works. You know, and I, I've learned to like, I don't force these things because I only want people to come on if they want to. Cause it doesn't, if they're like, oh, if they feel like, like, oh, they're doing a favor or something, it's not going to be good. Like I, I want them to be there because they want to be there.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:50Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? So I don't, I don't like pressure anybody or anything like that. And it's, it's tricky when you live in Los Angeles because you meet a lot of people, right? And like, you can't just roll up on, you know, you meet some cool person. You can't just immediately, I don't know, maybe you do, but like, you know, I don't like, I, I have to, I play like a, you know, like more of a coy.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:09Rich Roll?

  Longer, you know.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  There's one person I.

• 40:11Rich Roll?

  I want to get to know the person first before.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  There's actually someone I went up to that I came on my show, uh, uh, Tay Diggs.

• 40:19Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Who I saw him, but we had mutual friends and I had heard about him through a mutual friend for a long time. So I just went up and said, Hey man, you know, I've got a mutual friend. She told me to say hi. He was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like, and then I mentioned my podcast and he's like, I'd love to come on. I was like, okay, cool. You know, should I follow up your publicist? And he was like, here, just take my cell.

• 40:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  So I actually went up to, uh, LL Cool J is a guy I want to get on. And he follows me on Instagram and he comments on my stuff and likes my stuff.

• 40:45Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  So I saw him at a spot in LA and I went up to him when like he was done with his meeting and I just said, Hey man, you know, big fan and you follow me on Instagram and this and that. I'd love to get you on my podcast. I've reached out a few times. He goes, Yeah, I'd love to do it. He's like, just send me a message. I go, I have, you haven't responded. He goes, send me, he goes, DM me right now and I'll get back to you. So I did. And we've been, you know, trying to find a time. He's just like so busy, but.

• 41:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Like I said, you know, they happen when they're supposed to happen.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  They happen when they're supposed to.

• 41:21Rich Roll?

  All right, well, let's talk about the new book,

• 41:23Speaker 01

  The Mask of Masculinity.

• 41:25Rich Roll?

  Before we get into it in depth, I'm interested in what motivated you to explore this topic of masculinity? And specifically, how, as men, it can be difficult and confusing to understand how to communicate with yourself and with other people? And the kind of way that we're raised to wear these masks in their various forms that prevent us from connecting with our own emotions and thus connecting with other people and ultimately hamstringing our personal development and growth.

• 42:08Rich Roll?

  So what began... It's an interesting step from your first book, School of Greatness, and then this is kind of like a much more mindful, soulful book than the first.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  My whole life, I've always... A couple of things of why I did this.

• 42:28Rich Roll?

  My whole life... Get the dog. Come here, girl.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  She's fine.

• 42:33Rich Roll?

  If you start petting her, then she'll never leave.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  That's why I stopped, yeah. A couple of things. One, I like to do things that kind of shock people about me. Like, I don't like to do the thing that people think I'm gonna do. I never drank in college or high school because people said that they thought I was gonna be like a drunk jock. And I was like, "Okay, well, let me prove you wrong," type of thing. I was like, I never wanted to be the guy that people thought or assumed I would do something.

• 43:02Rich Roll?

  So on Gretchen Rubin's Four Tendencies Quiz, you're a rebel?

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Yes, so much of a rebel, yeah. So that's one. And two, I want to do things that are super meaningful to me and challenge me. And after the School of Greatness book, my agent and publisher were like, okay, let's do one on business and marketing. And I was like, it's just boring to me. It's not exciting to me. I was like, sure, I can sell a ton of these, but it wasn't what made me excited inside or interested or curious. And as I was writing the book, and really, uh, the School of Greatness, and really the year and a half, two years before, I started opening up more about being sexually abused, which I've talked to you about.

• 43:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we talked about that.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  About, you know, just being bullied, picked on, just, you know, and also not really having a lot of emotional awareness in relationships. I felt like I would always get triggered. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that, but I just never felt like I could end a relationship gracefully. I was so afraid to be alone.

• 44:02Rich Roll?

  So what was your strategy? Like, cut and run and then, you know, pretend the person doesn't exist? Or like, when you would break up with somebody?

• 44:09Speaker 01

  It was like, just constant back and forth, like arguing and stress. And I was like a coward, always. Like, I could never just end it. When I knew like it was too long past. You know, sometimes you're like in the, I don't know, phase, but it's like when you know and you're like going on for another six to 12 months, it's like, okay, what's going on?

• 44:27Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  And I was afraid. I think I was emotionally afraid to not have that intimacy, have that connection, have that friendship, whatever it was. I was just afraid in my teens and early twenties. And I went through a pretty bad breakup when I moved here that made me so angry all the time. Made me just like go off on everyone else in my life, my business partners, playing pickup basketball. And I got in a really bad fight where I put a guy in a hospital because we were, we were just trash talking and fouling each other hard. And then all of a sudden it turned into a fight. In a, there was zero stakes on this pickup basketball game. There was nothing on the line. It's just our ego was flared up so much.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  He actually hit me first, but then I was just, was determined to finish it. Like, my ego was so hurt that I was like, I'm gonna ruin you. And it was about that time when the relationship was going all over the place. I got in these fights and my, I just realized I was more and more angry and resentful.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  And I started to open up about the sexual abuse. I went to a couple of workshops that helped me kind of open up and start talking for the first time in 25 years. And I realized, wow, my entire life, I've come from a place of, I need to be right, and I need to win. And in order for me to be right and me to win, that means everyone else needed to lose, and everyone else needed to be wrong.

• 45:51Rich Roll?

  So zero sum game, and this compulsion that comes from where?

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:57Rich Roll?

  Like, what is the genesis of that?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Where did that come from?

• 46:00Rich Roll?

  That need to like, you know, be the best or win?

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Our number of the events, you know, being sexually abused, I was picked last on sports teams often.

• 46:08Rich Roll?

  Oh, come on, dude. You must have been the biggest kid in your class.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  I was, and I was athletic, but I was like in the special needs classes in schools, and I was always had the, you know, it was me and like four kids with, like, in a wheelchair. And it was like always, they associated me as like the dumb, stupid kid, and so they didn't want to hang out with me. So it was more of like just bullying me or just kind of picking on me because I wasn't able to read and write well, and had a stutter and all these other things. And it was just like, I was just like the awkward, tall, goofy looking kid that was picked on. And again, my story is not unique because I think a lot of people were picked on for whatever they had going on growing up. But that, my brother went to prison when I was eight years old for four and a half years, so I would visit him in a visitor, visiting

• 46:56Speaker 01

  room at the prison, every Saturday or Sunday.

• 46:59Rich Roll?

  And we should point out, just for the listener, that your brother has transcended that experience and become a very accomplished musician.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's the greatest jazz violinist in the world now, and it's an amazing story. We're actually writing a book about that. So I think those events, a lot of that, and also my parents were kind of just arguing and fighting a lot, and I never felt seen as the youngest of four. My siblings were much older, and it was kind of like the left, I was just like there by myself a lot, growing up. So I didn't have friends when my brother was in prison, really, because the neighborhood parents didn't want their kids to hang out with me, because they thought I was bad like my brother.

• 47:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  You know, I was in the special needs classes.

• 47:36Rich Roll?

  Bad kid by association.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so kind of all these things, I was just always alone. I felt alone. You know, my parents were there, they loved me, but it's just the story I told myself. And I remember after getting picked last on the dodgeball, in a dodgeball game, it was two team captains who were boys and they picked all the guys first and then they picked all the girls second and then I was the last pick. And I remember saying to myself, like, I'm never gonna be picked last again. And I'm gonna prove all these kids wrong and the whole world wrong about who I am. I just kinda made that decision. So every day from that moment forward, it was me versus the world. I had to be the biggest, fastest, strongest person at everything I did.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  I had to just protect myself so that no one could hurt me anymore as this kid. That's how I felt. And as I evolved in high school, you know, people, you know, I became very valuable in sports.

• 48:29Rich Roll?

  So you throw yourself into sports and football and this is your outlet to be able to express this anger in kind of a safe, contained way.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:38Rich Roll?

  But usually, you know, that, that wound that you describe, it comes with that inability to be intimate with other people because you've been hurt in that way. Like, you're not gonna get too close to anybody and the minute you do get close, it gets scary and you break it off.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 48:58Rich Roll?

  Because it's too threatening because you're, because it, then you have to be vulnerable and that puts you in a position to be hurt. And you can't have that because you know what that's like, right? So you gotta cut it off and be in control of that situation to protect yourself.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So I think a number of those events kind of made me feel, well, here's the, here's the thing about it. These masks that men wear drive us to be, to achieve, to achieve something we want. For me, I wanted to be a great athlete, so I put on this athlete mask and it was hard to take it off at times. But I would achieve all my athletic goals that I had for myself and be unhappy after I'd achieved them. And I didn't understand why I was unhappy or unfulfilled. And so I would go after bigger goals and bigger dreams and then I would achieve those, thinking they would make me happy and they wouldn't. And I was like, what, why isn't, why am I not happy still? And I just thought this was the way of life.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Until about four years ago, when I started to just heal from this process. Like, I never told people that I was sexually abused. I never told people about like how much it hurt me growing up, feeling these things. I never just like shared it. And when I started to share. I felt like this weight was lifted off my shoulders.

• 50:11Rich Roll?

  What, what brought you to the realization that that was what you needed to do? Or what gave you the courage?

• 50:17Speaker 01

  I didn't know it's what I needed to do. I was going to this workshop, actually, that, an emotional intelligence leadership workshop. And we're going through all the things that hold us back in our life from being great. All the different, um, you know, the triggers, the, the anger, the resentment, the uh, playing small, all the things that we told ourselves that were holding us back from, you know, achieving the, the career goals, financial goals, the relationship goals, health goals, anything that was holding us back from being better. We addressed them and a lot of these things came back from like our conditioning with our parents and childhood and things like that. So it was kind of like group therapy in a sense, where they did different exercises

• 51:02Speaker 01

  and games to, to create real world situations. And about three days into this five day workshop, the trainer facilitator was like, and we'd gone, I mean, people were crying, people were like snotting, like, you know, it was, it was pretty deep. Like, I didn't know really it was gonna be that crazy. But people are really going there to intimate, vulnerable places about where they've been hurt, where they were held back, what they told themselves about how they weren't good enough, whatever it may be. And there was a point after three days of this where we addressed our parents, you know, the childhood bullies, like everyone had their own stuff. We all addressed it. Trainer said, okay. After this moment, we're moving forward. We're letting go of the past. We've addressed everything.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  So there's no longer need to like go into the past. We're gonna start focusing on our vision for the future and what we wanna create in our life. But is there anything, so if there isn't, if you haven't said anything you need to say yet, now's the time, otherwise forever hold your peace. And I remember going, uh, this is like to a room of like 50 of us. And I remember like it was silent and I'm kinda like going through in my mind like these, these images. I was like, okay, my brother going to prison, I talked about that, like my parents like getting divorced and like fighting all the time, okay. Uh, you know, being bullied, being picked on, I like talked about these things and I was like, at that time I was raped when I was five in the bathroom by another man that I didn't know. It just like, it was just like a vision that went through my mind and I was like, why

• 52:29Speaker 01

  have I never shared this with anyone for 25 years? I was just like, hmm.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Like I put it off in my head like it wasn't that big a deal like oh this happened and I'm just gonna put it to the side. And I remember just saying like huh why have I never shared it and I felt like I need to share this. I was just like came to me I was like I just need to share this otherwise I'll probably never share it. So I think if I didn't have that like three days of experience like leading up to this where these like major interruptions maybe making other people being open and vulnerable and sharing things. Like it was really a catalyst that inspired me to be like okay it's safe enough for me to talk about this in this context to these 50 people. And so I literally just stood up, walked to the front of the room, like I didn't even raise my hand or say like I have something to say, I just stood up and walked to the front of the room.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  I couldn't look anyone in the eyes, I was looking down at the carpet the whole time. And it was for the first time I shared the story when I was five and getting raped in a bathroom. And I walked through detail by detail for the first time in 25 years. And I remember that I just could not look up. And I was, I told it like it was a movie, like I could see it, I could smell it, I could taste the experience, everything, I could put myself right there. And I walked back to my chair and right when I sat down, it was like I just erupted with tears, like I wasn't crying when I was telling the story, but I couldn't look people in the eyes because I was so ashamed. When I sat down, I started just erupting, like my body was shaking, I couldn't, I wanted

• 54:04Speaker 01

  to stop it, but I couldn't. And luckily, there was these two women on the side of me who were just like crying with me and holding me and I was just like, I felt so ashamed, but also so relieved that I shared something that was holding me back emotionally. And I remember running out of the room because I was just like ashamed of myself, I was just like embarrassed and ashamed and I was like what are these people gonna think of me, you know? And I went outside of this workshop room, out of the hotel where the workshop was, into the kind of back street where there was a wall, you know, the back street and I just put my head on the wall, my arm on the wall, and was just crying, I couldn't stop crying. And I just wanted to be alone.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  And one by one, the men from the room came up from me behind, I'll never forget this, it was really moving for me. They came up from behind and like just hugged me and looked me in the eyes and were like, you're my hero. And it was one of the, it was like, I never felt so seen in my life. When these men who were like, I was judging you the last three days, just by your image and the way you look and you're this tall, white jock and I had no clue, like this is something you've been through and it makes me respect you more, it makes me trust you more. It makes me wanna connect with you and support you however I can. And these men were just opening up, you know, some, some of the men had been sexually abused as well and opened up for the first time.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  They started sharing with me what their experience was and they were married with kids and no one knew in their family. Other guys who didn't have that experience were just like, man, I'm here for you, like, thank you for sharing. And it felt such like a release to be able to just share. And I started to share, after this workshop, I started to share one by one with my family. Which was really challenging to do, especially with my mom because she's the one who found the babysitter and you know, she felt totally responsible. Right, he was the son of your babysitter? Yeah, he was like a seventeen year old, yeah, like son, I was five. So the babysitter was like a, you know, fifty year old mother who was amazing and she was right across the, uh,

• 56:17Speaker 01

  my elementary school, her house was across the street, so I just had to go there after school for a couple hours when my mom was still working until like five or six. And

• 56:28Speaker 01

  and so I started sharing one by one with my family, which was really challenging because I was afraid they were gonna, I don't know, not love me or not accept me or whatever. And I remember talking to like a, a relationship counselor actually about, you know, how do I even talk to my family about this? I had no clue, how do you, how do you say something to your family or people you're close to?

• 56:49Speaker 01

  And so that's a whole nother process of how I was able to to start the conversations. But then I I did it with them and I was like, oh, wow. I have, they have deeper love for me. They had my brother, my sisters, they started opening up about things I never heard about them. They were like so, they felt so much more connected to me. It was amazing whatever relationship has been like since then. Then I started sharing with like close friends one by one. And it was terrifying, like I was terrified every time I did it with my family, then these close friends. But one by one, the more I shared it, the less I like teared up about it, the less I was embarrassed about it, the less I, you know, felt like it had control over me.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  It was like now I was owning the story as opposed to the story owning me. And it didn't have power over me anymore after like months and months of talking about it. And then I, people were like, you need to share this on your podcast. And I was like, no fucking way. There's like no way that I want the world to know this about me because I was still terrified. And then the more I said that, I was like, hmm, the story must still own me. If I'm not willing to reveal myself to everyone, but everything I've been through. Yeah, you're still afraid and your ego is in the way. And I was like, what are people going to think about me? Are they going to follow me still? Are they gonna, you know, or they gotta think it's some marketing thing I'm doing or whatever? Like, I was just scared. And I remember it took me about six months to to finally agree to doing it.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  And I, you know, I recorded it with Jonathan Fields and he kind of interviewed me to to go through the process. And I was pretty scared, you know, during it, I was very kind of nervous still. And now I can talk about it where it doesn't own me. But what I realized is when I published this podcast about being sexually abused and kind of the whole process and what was available on the other side for me was freedom, was intimacy, was uh, not feeling afraid anymore of what people thought about me, not feeling like people are judging me anymore because I put everything out there. And a deeper sense of inner peace, like I just felt at peace in my heart.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Whereas I always felt angry and passive aggressive when I had these triggers. And so what I realized is like when I post this, I had hundreds of emails from men and women. But so many men that opened up to me for the first time being sexually abused. Or just going through some challenge in their life where they felt like, wow, if you could do this and share about your thing. Then maybe I can share about my thing with my sister or my parents or my wife or whatever it may be. And it was just like, man. I I thought I was like the only one who wasn't talking about this, but I guess everyone isn't talking about like the things they're most ashamed of or what they're afraid of.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  And I just said, huh, there's something here. It was like the most downloaded episode. It was the most shared. It was the most meaningful, the most impactful. And I was like, this is the topic. Not necessarily around sexual abuse, but why do men wear different masks? That hold them back? Why do men um cause a lot of resentment and anger and conflict in relationships with business, friends, family, intimate partners? Why do we do this as men? Not all men, but why in general do some men do this? And I realized that. You know, a lot of this conditioning over time from your parents saying like. You know, don't cry, don't be a crybaby, be a man, be this, your coaches, be a man, get back up, don't show pain.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  From, you know, the confusion of relationships where. Women want a bad guy and they're, you know, the bad guys are rewarded in high school to then they want a sensitive person. But then they want you to be strong. They want you to show you. So it's like constantly conflicting. And I think. Yes, we all have our own responsibilities to be the best person we can be. But when society, culture, family, friends, girlfriends. Teammates are starting to have this pressure constantly. To feel accepted, we need to be a certain way to fit in. We have to. Fit in with to what they want us to be, not who we truly are.

• 1:00:58Rich Roll?

  And being open, honest and vulnerable is completely at odds with that and our and our whole lives and, you know, look, this is applicable to women too.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:01:07Rich Roll?

  But I think it's a little bit more acute with men because of the way we're sort of socially. Conditioned and programmed as we grow into these gender roles. But the idea that you're going to be honest and open about your flaws and your failures and be vulnerable and expose yourself in that way runs contrary to everything we were taught growing up. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I wasn't sexually abused, but I have my version. Of course. We talked about this. I have my version of this through alcoholism and addiction recovery. Yeah. And one of the most downloaded episodes I ever did is when I talked about relapsing after I'd had a lot of time and after I had completed writing Finding Ultra and before it had come out. And I was deeply ashamed of that because I was like, oh, my God, I wrote this book

• 1:01:52Rich Roll?

  about addiction recovery, you know, and Here I am. And my journey to wholeness and here I am still this Perfection. incredibly flawed human being. Yeah. What does that mean and what are people going to think? And I held on to that for a long time. I mean, first of all, just being an alcoholic in general, like my journey to being able to own that came through sobriety and recovery and rehab and, you know, everything that I put into creating a foundation of sobriety where that story doesn't control me anymore. Like, I own it and I'm totally comfortable talking about it. And I've had that same experience where when you can, when people know when you're comfortable about it and they're like, they're not used to that. And they're like, oh, wow, like, it's not so bad. Like, maybe I can share that thing that I'm scared about or be a little bit more vulnerable

• 1:02:37Rich Roll?

  than I have been. But there's always more layers, you know? And so like when I relapsed, I was like, well, I own that, but like this is still owning me, right? And I had to do the same thing and share it on my podcast. It was terrifying, you know? Terrifying. But that was the thing that, you know, people really connected with that. And they didn't have to be an alcoholic or an addict, but just the fact that like I was willing to be that honest. Open, man. I think gives people, it connects, it connects you to people. And like, you know, Brene Brown talks about this beautifully, and I know you just interviewed her and like, she's my hero. I think she's amazing. It was amazing, dude. And, you know, if you do anything in the wake of this podcast, other than read Lewis' book, please explore the work of Brene Brown because she's really, you know, dug into the research on this. And the truth is, we're terrified of being vulnerable.

• 1:03:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Because we equate it with weakness. But the truth is, that is your strength. And if you can muster the courage to be vulnerable and to like, own your path, and it's a journey to getting to there, but when you can get to that place where it doesn't control you anymore, it is incredibly empowering. And it's the thing that, that is going to connect you with other human beings and like infuse your life with meaning and purpose and direction. It's a beautiful process and it's terrifying. Like, I'm not gonna lie to you, it's terrifying. So, so, uh, so I understand like why we walk around with these masks on. Um, you know, the enemy we know is, is much better than the, you know, the mysterious enemy that we don't.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:05Rich Roll?

  Right? And it's stories like yours where you can, you can lead by example and, and really demonstrate this, that, that provides that opening that can shift, you know, people's perspective on these issues and give them permission to like, own their own truth.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's what I realized when I, when I started sharing more years ago, four years ago, people told me that they had permission to start opening up and the release they had after sharing, it was like they had the weight off their shoulders. Now they could finally step into who they're being. And I feel like if we have a mask on, if we're holding something back, we are never able to get into full flow in our lives. We may be 70, 80%, but until we're in full flow, which means being our authentic self, we can never have the highest impact or achieve the greatest results in our life. We're a little bit tight, we're a little bit clenched. And you can't, you know, be an athlete if you're clenched. You

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  can't be an athlete of life if you're closed off. So, I realized like, wow, so many men are hurting in, in the American society and around the world.

• 1:05:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, suffering silently.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Suffering.

• 1:05:12Rich Roll?

  You know, quote, Henry David Thoreau, like,

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:05:14Rich Roll?

  Cause it's not, it's not okay. So,

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  It's not okay to talk about it.

• 1:05:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  You can't talk about it with your boys. You can't talk about it with girls. You can't talk about it with your wife because when you do, they tell you, you know, in general, that's a say, well, I need you to be strong right now because I'm all over the place. And so it's like, there might've been one time you were told like, no, you can't, I need you to be strong for me right now. Where the man thought, okay, I gotta be strong all the time then. You know, maybe. And, you know, I love Brene Brown. I love Oprah. I love the people that are talking about vulnerability because it's transformed a lot of women's lives who feel like they can share. But a lot of men aren't listening to, Brene Brown.

• 1:05:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Who are, unless they're like, you know, yoga, socially conscious men, but the guys that I grew up with in general, they most likely wouldn't be caught dead.

• 1:06:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the barbecue in NFL.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Just the Midwestern.

• 1:06:06Rich Roll?

  Whatever. Like, yeah, they're not like, let's see what Brene has to say.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  They'll never watch that TED Talk. And I remember when I started getting into her work four years ago and learning more about this and learning about vulnerability and things. I was like, wow, this is so powerful. And yet, no, not many guys are talking about it. And so I just felt like I had a responsibility.

• 1:06:24Rich Roll?

  You could be a cipher for that.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  I felt like I had a responsibility. Like, I look like the typical jock. I'm a tall, white man. Uh, you know, and I've had some business success. I've had some other success in my life as an athlete. So if I could be a Trojan horse or a catalyst to get people in, to get men in, to be like, hey, you want to live a great life? You gotta open up. If you want to cheat, you want to make a lot of money, you want to get the girl, you want to be a great athlete, like, okay, you can do that. And you don't have to suffer. You don't have to constantly live in this prison inside of your mind and constantly come from an aggressive place, a win-lose place, uh, you know, and need me to be right all the time. Like, that creates so much dis-ease in our hearts. And when we can come from a place of, how can I win and how can you win?

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  And everyone around me win? Like, it just feels better. When we come from a place of, you know, maybe I'm not right here. Let's, let's just hear it out. Let's have a discussion and, and see what we come up with together. You're not isolating yourself by being the only winner and the only person who's right. You're not being on an island by yourself in that place. Now you're connecting to a larger community of people and you're supporting humanity as opposed to creating the conflict that we're seeing so much in the world today.

• 1:07:37Rich Roll?

  I think as a starting place, uh, the individual has to at least be in a place where they're willing to kind of wrestle with their demons a little bit. I mean, I'm just thinking of.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  Scary, man. It's hard.

• 1:07:48Rich Roll?

  You know, like you're saying, oh, the typical guy. All right, like, let's conjure the stereotype.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:52Rich Roll?

  Like, often, that guy's so disconnected from his emotional body because of that programming and because of the coaches or the parent, whatever it is. That they're not even aware that they're repressing their emotions because that disconnection is so complete.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  So strong.

• 1:08:10Rich Roll?

  So how do you even like?

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  The mask is fused to their faces.

• 1:08:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like there's no distinction between the mask and the person like my, my, my wife. There's, there's one particular type of mask that my wife calls the super duper's. Like when you meet, you know, you meet, I'm sure in your business circles, you meet guys like this all the time. They're like, when you meet them and they give you that super firm handshake and they look at you in the eye and you're like, how are you doing? A super duper, I'm so, I'm super, I'm so, how are you doing? You know, and you're like, it's bullshit, you know, like a guy's not, this guy's not even in the universe of, of beginning to be honest with me about however he's feeling. Maybe that's not the right context, or maybe he would be, you know, more open in a different setting. But in general, it's like a guy who's walking around like that all the time. He's just, I mean, the mask is so obvious, right?

• 1:08:58Rich Roll?

  And it's such a barrier because you're like, all right, well, am I really going to have a meaningful conversation with this guy? Probably not, like, I'll just go through the niceties and like move on.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I just feel like now's the time with more and more conflict in the politics, with more and more conflict with the racial issues that are happening. It just seems like everyone is fighting, at least, and now with public, with social media, it's just so prominent, you see it so much. But I feel like there's gotta be an interruption and the only way to take the mask off is with an interruption. Whether it be, uh, you know, a major breakup in your life, a divorce, a near death experience, someone in your life, near death experience.

• 1:09:37Rich Roll?

  Throw a little pain in their direction.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  You've gotta go through some type of.

• 1:09:41Rich Roll?

  Because you're so, people are so attached to their identity. And you're asking them to let go of essentially like who they are, like that's a huge ask.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  For me, the reason why it happened is because I had a major interruption. I was in this five day workshop where it took three days for me to finally like have a mirror in front of my face and be like, oh, I have an ego? I didn't think I had an ego. I thought I was just like this good guy. Or I wasn't angry, but I was always angry inside. And it took a deep interruption where this facilitator just called me out on my bullshit like over and over in front of everyone. He was like, why are you so angry, Lewis? He just kept saying, why are you so angry? And I was like, I'm a fun-loving, like, I hug people all the time. I'm always happy. I was like, what do you mean angry? He was like, you're really angry. It's like all over your face, it's all over your energy.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  And I was just like, fuck you. I was like, you don't know me. I was like, you know what I mean?

• 1:10:37Rich Roll?

  You respond with anger to defend your non anger-ness.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  But it's just like, the more and more feedback I got. I was like, I started to open up. I started to recognize uh, the, the masks I was wearing, the, the, the things that were holding me back. And I needed that interruption. It took me thirty years to have an interruption. And I think, I hear this from other friends who have near-death experiences or other things, or it's like, that's their wake-up call. So, it's hard, because I don't want anyone to have a near-death experience, or have to go to a workshop, or any of these things, to, to have that interruption. That's why I think it's so important for the women in the lives of men, who have these masks, to support as a loving interruption. By not making men wrong for wearing it, because I think in a lot of relationships, I hear men saying,

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  "My girlfriend, my wife makes me wrong for who I am, and is constantly nagging me, these things." So I think women can play a part in being a loving interruption, by coming from a place of love and understanding. By first being aware, like, why is he wearing this mask? As opposed to just making him wrong for who he is? Let me look deeper. And this is hard to do, when you're frustrated with your man, for him being a certain way after years, I get it. It's really hard to do, as a woman, to, to kind of step into this loving awareness of understanding. But I think if you want to see a transformation in the man in your, in your, uh, your life, your father, your brother, your husband, boyfriend, sons. There's a lot of mothers out there, talking to me about their sons, how they're disconnected.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  It's like, try to come from a place of why first, that they might be doing that. That's why we try to create the, uh, the information on why someone might be wearing that mask. And then, some tools and resources on how to get them to take off the mask for a moment, so you can have a intimate conversation with them. The best way to do that, that I've found, is through acknowledgement. Acknowledging the, your son, your husband, the boyfriend, your dad, for the good they are doing. Focus on those good moments in the life where they do show a tender side, or they, they are thoughtful, or they are open. And just say, "I really appreciate how you did that, you know, the other day, with so-and-so. It was so beautiful to see, and it just made me feel so much more connected to you, and made me want to have incredible sex with you." Whatever it is, you gotta say to like, get them excited.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  And encourage that as opposed to encouraging the masks or making the mask wrong. Because when you make the mask wrong, you're probably going to push the man away or make them want to keep the mask on tighter to protect themselves. So just be aware of that.

• 1:13:14Rich Roll?

  As you're saying that, I'm sort of, you know, reflecting back on my own path with this and the role that Julie played. And she was always, like, she could tell I was suffering, like, being a lawyer, you know, like, wearing a certain mask and trying to make it work, even though it was at odds with this person, that she could always see this better version of me. But I was too afraid to, you know, step in that direction and too afraid to let go of the mask I was wearing and...

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  What did she do?

• 1:13:42Rich Roll?

  Well, she just, she was like, "I believe in you and like, you're more than this." And, you know, "I have a vision for you, like, just, you know, you need to trust your instincts, like, you're suffering, like, let me help you." Or, and then at other times, like, just giving me space, like, like, she was, you know, she went through, like, "Look, here's what you need to do," and then that didn't work, you know what I mean? Because it's like, I don't want to hear somebody telling me what I should do.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Don't judge me.

• 1:14:07Rich Roll?

  But she just let go and, you know, ultimately, she got to a place of like, "Look, I love you unconditionally, like, you want to keep living that way? I still want to be married to you and I love you and we'll have a great life. I think there's, you know, you have more potential to do things in other areas. But, you know, this is your life, like, she's like, "I'm releasing you to your life." Like, "I am releasing you, like, I'm sorry for vibing you or for trying to, you know, feeling like I wanted you to be different than you are." Like, and it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a, like a strategy, like, she really meant it. Like, I could tell that it was real, like, she wasn't just saying it, you know? Like, she was, she felt that in her heart and I noticed that shift.

• 1:14:51Rich Roll?

  And I think that is what, like, you talked about, like, suddenly seeing yourself in the mirror, like, that is what allowed me to actually... See myself as I was in the mirror because I had to then take responsibility for myself, not to please somebody else or my partner.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:06Rich Roll?

  Right? And I think that was a huge catalyst in my growth, but you know, these things are hard and, and you know, pain, you know, it's like that pain moment, like if you, if that happens to you, that's a gift. You know, as maybe as terrible as the circumstances may be, um, there's a, there's a divinity in that. If you can grab on to that and understand that it's a, it's a moment that you can grab on to and harness to begin this journey that you've experienced, then it can be a beautiful thing. But you know, these masks come in many forms and you kind of, you know, you outline the book and break them down. You have like

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  Nine different masks.

• 1:15:44Rich Roll?

  Joker mask and the stoic mask and the invincible mask, the aggressive mask, the athlete mask, the sexual mask, the know it all mask, the alpha mask. I mean, just by their titles, you can kind of imagine how these, these things break down.

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:58Rich Roll?

  Um, but they're all powerful and I don't think anybody falls. I mean, certainly there's a spectrum and you know, you kind of, okay, the alpha mask, I kind of know who that guy is. But I think most men are a hybrid of a number of these.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  A few.

• 1:16:11Rich Roll?

  And I think, you know, what you did well in the book was that you entered this as a learning experience for yourself. It's not like, hey, this is, this is the way that it is, and this is what you need to do. It's like, I struggled with this and in each chapter, when you're kind of breaking down these various masks, you're like, this is what I, this is how I wore this mask. Or here's an example of like where I kind of went awry because of some example of something that happened in your life. And I think it allows people to kind of connect with that.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, pretty much in every chapter, I talk about all my faults as a man.

• 1:16:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  How I've worn every mask.

• 1:16:45Rich Roll?

  Vulnerability.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  How I've worn every mask, how it supported me in my life and how it didn't support me.

• 1:16:51Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  So again, I'm not trying to come from a place of like, you're a wronged man if you wear a mask or you're bad. It's not about right and wrong, good and bad. It's about What's effective and what's working and what's not working? And are you suffering inside by wearing this mask? Is something holding you back from living a fuller, richer life? And your relationships, your health, your spiritual health, everything? And if something is holding you back, let's address it, let's look at it. For instance, the material mask, for me, saved my life in a sense because when I was broke on my sister's couch, I fixated on making as much money as I could so I could get off the couch. So I said, I'm gonna become a master at making money.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  I no longer wanna feel broke, I wanna feel like I have abundance in my life financially. So I spent the next year and a half, two years, only thinking about money. And I gained sixty pounds and I had no intimate relationships. But it got me to make, get to make a lot of money. So it's like, okay, it supported me in some ways to getting the goal that I had in mind. But it left me feeling so unfulfilled in the rest of my life. So it's like, how can we balance this and be aware and take it off in certain times?

• 1:18:04Rich Roll?

  The scary, yeah, no, I get that. And I think the thing that, that happens, I think, is that guys get in their lane, right? And if you, you take a successful guy, maybe he's wearing the material mask, maybe he's wearing the athlete mask, whatever it is. He's excelled in his life. And if you were to ask that person, they will tell you the reason that they excelled is because of the mask and now you're proposing that they let go of that. And that means that they'll no longer be able to do the thing that they do, right?

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:35Rich Roll?

  And that's the fear and that's the unknown. And so, so it's a leap of faith. And as somebody who's taken that leap yourself and, and I have as well, we can both say like, look, the water's warm on the other side, it's gonna be okay. Like, that's an illusion, that attachment to that identity and that strategy and that mask is, although you think it's serving you, it actually isn't. But you're gonna have to trust me.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  It's hard. And here, here's the thing, you know, it's like, Let's use the material mass for an example. Like, I'm all about having nice, nice things, like living in a nice place, flying first class. Like, I'm all about convenience and all these things. But I think if I was posting about all my material possessions every single day on social media, talking about how much money I had constantly, I would attract a certain crowd and I would attract people close to me, who probably were thinking about the same things, were focused on the money. So I would ask myself, like, if I didn't, if I lost it all, would those friends still be around? Did I make an impact in their life, or did I have meaningful connections with them beyond the money?

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  Or was that the thing that attracted them to me as well? So I think you just need to ask yourself, like, again, if you're an athlete and then you get injured, are your friends gonna stick around? Is your entourage gonna stick around if you're no longer playing in the game? Whatever sports you're playing. And you no longer have the money. Did you make an impact in people's lives? Did you build meaningful intimate relationships? If you didn't, those people probably aren't gonna stick around. But don't, don't allow your, your net worth to reflect your self-worth. And the same thing with your athletic capabilities and everything else. Figure out a way to develop your self-worth first and build meaningful value in other people's lives. And if you make a lot of money, cool. But at least you have the foundation first of self-worth.

• 1:20:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the tricky thing is, is like, most rich dudes are, they're, that's what their self-worth is wrapped up in.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  It's focused on their bank account. Like, if their bank account goes down, it's like they have a heart attack.

• 1:20:39Rich Roll?

  And it doesn't matter that it's not solving the happiness equation, because there's always one more thing to get, because the other guy has it and you don't. And you can, you'll chase, I mean, look.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  You lived that life, right? You were lawyer life.

• 1:20:51Rich Roll?

  We live in Hollywood, you know? It's like, those guys are all around. I know, look, I know tons of millionaires and, you know, billionaire-type guys that are not happy people. You know, but they still, they're on that treadmill, you know? And it's gonna take. You know, something pretty severe in their life to get them off of that and reevaluate.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  Who's the guy who lives up here? The famous director who lived in a massive mansion? He actually directed all the Jim Carrey movies.

• 1:21:18Rich Roll?

  Tom Shadyak.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  Is that him with the longer hair? And now he lives in like a trailer park or something?

• 1:21:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he moved to Boulder for a while. He's, he's back. I've been trying to get him on the podcast.

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  I would love to get him too.

• 1:21:25Rich Roll?

  He's amazing. Yeah, but he, yeah, but he made an amazing documentary. It's called, I am not, I think it's called, I am not that or something like that. I forget the name. David, do you know that documentary I'm talking about? I forget the name of it. It's something like that, but basically, yeah, one of the biggest directors in Hollywood had everything.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  Huge mansions.

• 1:21:44Rich Roll?

  Directing giant, you know, comedies with all the big movie stars, Jim Carrey, et cetera. And just was like, dude, it's not, you know, it's like, no, not at all. And he, he just basically quit being a director, uh, sold all his belongings, moved into a, moved into a trailer in Malibu.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  A nice trailer.

• 1:22:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like, I know, like there's a, there's a little area in Malibu where it's like a, it's like technically it's a trailer park, but these are like amazing trailers.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  Like a million dollar trailers.

• 1:22:10Rich Roll?

  They're still like super nice, right? A paradise cove. So I think he moved in there.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  But it's not huge. It's like the size of this.

• 1:22:15Rich Roll?

  No, they're like, yeah, they're small. They're, but they're cool. You know, it's not like.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  He's living nice still, but yeah.

• 1:22:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, but it's an incredible documentary where he kind of, you know, talks about all these things.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want to watch that.

• 1:22:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not true. I mean, look, we know it intellectually, like everybody knows, oh, money doesn't buy you happiness, blah, blah. But it's like, but actually believing that, like we sort of go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, if I just get the Tesla or if I just get the thing.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Well, it buys you convenience and buys you like a more comfortable life. It buys you these other things that, you know, the lack of money can't get you, but it doesn't buy you inner peace. And I think that's the thing as men we struggle with is finding this sense of like inner peace and inner fulfillment. And if we're constantly chasing something, thinking that it's going to give us inner peace without addressing the things that are holding that peace back from us, that's where we get into trouble. So it's how can we address those things now and then go make billions of dollars and you're going to be happier.

• 1:23:12Rich Roll?

  But you gotta be willing to go on that journey of self-discovery and you're going to have to get used to the idea of being open and vulnerable. You know, like it, it, and a lot of these things date back to these childhood wounds. You know, I interviewed this guy on the podcast, Gabor Maté, who's an expert in addiction. And his whole thing is, you know, so many addicts, like it's rooted in these childhood traumas and. And even when you look back on your life and you're like, well, I wasn't abused and my parents weren't alcoholics, but there's some kind of, there's psychic damage, there's emotional trauma there, left unresolved, or left unaddressed and unexamined, is toxic in your life. And it's manifesting in these behavior patterns and these, these sort of mentalities that are, you

• 1:23:56Rich Roll?

  know, that get firmer and firmer as we age and, and form the very basis of our identity that ultimately are leading us astray from the thing that we seek most, which is purpose and meaning and satisfaction and, you know, and, and to love and to be loved, right? And, and, and we're all chasing it in the wrong directions. And it's confusing because as men, I think it's in certain respects, and I'm interested, because you're so much younger than me, and what you think about this, like, you know, the great generation, the World War II veterans, like, look, this, you be, this is what you do as a man. Like, it was pretty clear cut. There wasn't a lot, there was, nobody was writing books about the mask of masculinity, you know what I mean? And then Vietnam happened, and we have

• 1:24:39Rich Roll?

  the sixties, and there's an openness, and it's the flower generation, and then we have Gen X and all the angst that gets built into that. Gen Y, now we have the millennials. And so the millennials are this generation of people who are, you know, by their very nature, not to be overly stereotypical, but more in touch with their emotions. I'm talking about men as much as women. Uh, it's a, it's a permissive generation in which, you know, it's okay for dude friends to like, share intimate details of their life in a way that like, perhaps was not okay in my generation and generations that preceded me. Um, but also, I would imagine, there's also that, that conflicting expectation that, you know, the dude still has to be strong. And he's still, you know, he's gotta be the

• 1:25:24Rich Roll?

  gentleman, and he has to be the warrior, and he has to be, uh, The athlete. The super dad who's going to all the things at the school, but he's also gotta be the provider who's making sure that he's bringing home the money, you know? And, and he's gotta be sensitive. And so there, it's like a- And calm and all this. Like, yeah, like, there's all of these- Intelligent, yeah. Yeah. And, and like, it's- It's not, this is not a pity party for men. Like I

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Same thing for women too.

• 1:25:47Rich Roll?

  It's much harder for women. All of these things apply to them.

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  Yes, they've gotta be sexy all the time.

• 1:25:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  You know, cook food and take care of the kids.

• 1:25:56Rich Roll?

  These conflicting gender expectations that create like a sense of vertigo because you, you can't be all of those things all the time. How does that balance out? And like, what is the path forward in terms of like being self-actualized and authentic to who you are?

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:11Rich Roll?

  So that's the equation, right?

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:13Rich Roll?

  What's the solution, Lewis?

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  Come on, you wrote the book. The solution is to first be aware of the mask that you're wearing.

• 1:26:20Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  First be aware is to, okay, and be aware and then say, why am I doing this? Why? And start to journal, like, what are the things that I still hold on to? What are the things that I don't like talking about? What are the things that I get triggered around? And start, start to have it written down on a piece of paper in your journal. And be aware of it. Be like, okay, here are some things. It's good to know. It's good to be aware. And the next thing is like saying, okay, what's the next step for me? How am I gonna be able to move past this? Who do I need to talk to about this? Would it be my guy friend, girlfriend, wife, parents, whatever it is? Who do I need to address and clear things with? So that these things don't own me anymore, but I'm in control of them.

• 1:27:02Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  I think that's a great first step. And it's an ongoing process. Listen, I wrote the book on this, but it's like, I still wear these masks. You know, it's not like I'm like this perfect, actualized, aware, sensitive, loving, vulnerable man 24/7. I get triggered like the best of them. And that's why I have daily practices of meditation, which I know you do, of gratitude, of looking into people's eyes and connecting with them. I also am constantly in appreciation. I'm always saying how much I appreciate people throughout my day, throughout my experiences. And then coming from a place of gratitude, gratitude allows me to just be focused on the little, small things that I'm appreciating as opposed to fixating on things I'm ungrateful for, or the things that trigger me, or the things that make me mad or aggressive.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  So it's those little daily practices that really guide me. And also surrounding myself with a good team that I say, hey, listen, give me feedback. If I'm being aggressive, if I'm being this, or if I'm being whatever, give me feedback in a loving way. Don't get mad at me, because that's gonna make me triggered more. But just let me know in a loving way like, hey, I feel like you're disconnected from us right now. And so I have a really good team, you know, I would say my personal life team and also my business team. They're all grounded people who give me great feedback. I think it's, you know, setting yourself up the best way you can because we're going to go through a lot of challenges for the rest of our life, especially if you're up to a big game in life, you're going to go through challenges and adversity.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  So just try to set yourself up to win and don't beat yourself up so much for having these things like, don't put yourself down more now that you're aware of these things. Just be like, okay, how can I be at peace with this? How can I let it go and be aware of it? So next time it comes up, I see the mask on and I take it off quicker and that should be our goal.

• 1:28:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that's pretty good practical advice, you know, I, I, I think it's important as a first step if you're suffering or you have some level of self-awareness of some dissonance within you or some behavior pattern that, that you know is unhealthy, but you're not sure what's behind it. I think the first thing is to find somebody that you trust to speak to.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:15Rich Roll?

  And, and, and to find, find somebody who you can confide in openly and honestly and like tell, like,

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  Tell them anything and everything.

• 1:29:21Rich Roll?

  Brutally honest and open as you possibly can.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  You feel so much better when you talk.

• 1:29:25Rich Roll?

  You've got to release that.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Got to share.

• 1:29:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And it's, that's tough if you've never done that because it requires you to trust somebody, you know, and.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  I, and I honestly don't think, and I'm sure you've done, you've done a lot of like therapy or recovery stuff, I'm assuming, but I don't think we can heal until we start to share. Instead we start to verbalize.

• 1:29:44Rich Roll?

  You're only as sick as your secrets. That's, that's the thing, man. Yeah. And so you've got to find that. And I think it's, I think journaling is super important and there's all kinds of exercises that I've, that I've, you know, done over the years. One thing that's really powerful. Is to kind of inventory certain situations and interactions you have. So let's say your anger flares up, or you end up in a fight with your girlfriend or boyfriend, or something happens at work, like to actually do an honest and open inventory of what exactly happened, and try to see and own your part in that. Like, because everybody kind of comes out of those situations blaming the other person, or being a victim, or like this, they did

• 1:30:26Rich Roll?

  that, and they did this, but like, let's get really honest about like, what your part in that was. And the more you get into the habit of doing that, patterns start to emerge, and you start to go, oh, I see, like, when this happens, like, I always get anger, angry, or this is how I react, like, why am I doing that? And that can like, catalyze more of a deeper inquiry into like, what's behind that? And then you can begin to unpack that, and that, I think that's, you know, another first step in, in starting to resolve and heal it, you know?

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, to find somebody you trust.

• 1:30:55Rich Roll?

  So, I mean, there's a million, you know, modalities.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  Find a group, find a group of people.

• 1:31:00Rich Roll?

  It's just like, it's not, it's like, there's no one, there's no right way, or one way, it's like, what's the way that you're gonna do? You know what I mean? Is it gonna be group therapy? Is it seeing a therapist? Is it just like, going on a bike ride with your best friend, and finally mustering the courage to tell him what's going on, or her, or whoever? You know, that, you know, that matters less than simply getting into the mindset and, and the behavior of actually, the doing of it, right?

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  You know, it's the same thing with like, when you hear about these stories of men or women coming out of the closet, it's like, they held on to this tension, and this resentment, and this anger for their whole life, and then they finally open up about it, and it's like, you can literally see them look younger, feel lighter, you know, feel happier about it, more fulfilled, because they're finally stepping into who they've always been, who they are.

• 1:31:52Rich Roll?

  They're bringing their, their, their identity into alignment with, you know, their outward self, in alignment with their inward self.

• 1:31:59Speaker 01

  So it's like, we all have something that we might be holding back from, or not be willing to share fully. But I believe when we start to fully share that thing, that we, that...

• 1:32:10Speaker 01

  You know, it's either who we are or the things we've been through that we're scared to share. That's when we can fully step into a lighter, more fulfilled life.

• 1:32:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. When I was in rehab, uh, part, what are the

• 1:32:21Speaker 01

  How long were you in rehab for?

• 1:32:22Rich Roll?

  A hundred days, dude.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  Wow. Like alone in a facility or with like a group of people?

• 1:32:28Rich Roll?

  Well, it was, it was in a facility.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Wow. Could you see your family?

• 1:32:32Rich Roll?

  Different phases. Well, there was family week. That was super fun where they come up and they confront you with all the bullshit that you

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  That must be miserable.

• 1:32:40Rich Roll?

  It was, it was super intense, but after I was there, like maybe 60 or 70 days, then I kind of moved out of the like dorm into like a house that was a couple of blocks away. Like, and I had a little bit more freedom, but no, I was essentially like, my best thinking got me

• 1:32:59Rich Roll?

  confined to a mental institution and I stayed there for a hundred days, but like, you know, I was in bad shape. When I arrived there, I thought I'll be here for a couple of weeks, you know, I'm, I gotta get back to my job, man. You know, like I got a big, important life waiting out here. Like, yeah, I got this problem, but like I gotta spin dry because you don't understand, like you don't understand my responsibility, you know? And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and it was terrifying and I was fully aware that like, you know, look, this was not the plan for my life. Like, you know, I was somebody who had a lot of promise and potential as a young person that I squandered. And now here I was, you know, in this situation that I was deeply ashamed about. Uh, and that's a whole other, you know, that's a two hour podcast in and of itself, but

• 1:33:43Rich Roll?

  my point is that I realized the gravity of the situation and I knew that I needed to take it seriously and give myself over to it completely. If I really wanted to heal and resolve, you know, what got me there in the first place. And one of the first things that they had us do was write down 10 instances of

• 1:34:07Rich Roll?

  Of your drinking and using, like, what was your intention going into? Like, let's say, oh, my intention was, I'm gonna go and meet a couple of friends and have a couple drinks. And then, right, what happened? Uh, I woke up in Vegas, like, naked in a hotel room and didn't know where my wallet was, or whatever. And then, how that impacted other people? Like, how did this create harm to the people in your world? And then, how did that harm yourself? And ten instances of that. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna do that super honestly. Like, it was the first time that I was, like, honest with anybody about, like, how I was actually living. And I had to read this out loud in front of the whole group of, like, forty people that were in this program. And I had that cathartic experience, but also, the counselors were like, yeah, I think you...

• 1:34:50Rich Roll?

  They're like, I know you wanna get out of here in, like, twenty-eight days, but like, yeah, like, you, you need to stick around, dude. Like, this is pretty, you know, like, you're, you're pretty far down the line. Like, we think you should hang out for a while. Yeah, and I was like, okay, whatever you say, man. And so, that's why I ended up staying.

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  So, it wasn't until you surrender?

• 1:35:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I surrendered, because I tried to get sober my way a million times, like, using my self-will and without taking my mask off, like, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna, like, will myself into fixing this problem, because that's how I've solved every other problem in my life. And that just dug the hole deeper and deeper and deeper, until I was so broken, that was my pain moment, my doine moment. And I was like, I give up. Like, you, whatever you say, I'm doing what you, you know, I am here one hundred and ten percent.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:33Rich Roll?

  And I'm not gonna fight you, I'm not gonna ask questions or intellectualize what you're telling me to do, I'm just gonna do it.

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  Trust the process.

• 1:35:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I had to, because I had, I had tried everything else, I had no other options, other than to just completely surrender to this thing. And that's what saved my life. So, the point being that, as scary as it is to surrender, especially for a guy, because we equate it with giving up, relinquishing our power, how dare you? I, you know, I'm not gonna relinqu... I'm not giving up my power, I was surrendering, are you kidding me? But that is where you find the strength.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:06Rich Roll?

  It is in that willingness to be vulnerable that your greatest strength lies. And, you know, that is, I don't wish my experience on anybody, but the lesson of that, I think, is what you're trying to convey in this book, and, and it is powerful, and it's something that, you know, I think men all over the world are, are struggling with silently.

• 1:36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Rich Roll?

  So... I commend you on the book.

• 1:36:25Speaker 01

  Thanks, brother.

• 1:36:26Rich Roll?

  Good job. I wanted to, before we wrap it up, though, I know you went on this silent meditation retreat.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  Not silent, not silent.

• 1:36:31Rich Roll?

  I wasn't silent, but where, did you go to India? Where'd you go?

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  I went to India.

• 1:36:35Rich Roll?

  To an ashram?

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  It was called One World Academy. It was powerful. I went for two weeks, didn't leave the premises of this place. And the first, the second or third day, I got really sick from eating something in another city. And so for like three days, I was having like a literal spiritual journey of like purging all these things, you know? Like the bad chicken I ate or something. Um, but I had a few days of meditation before that. And then I went through, I was like just in my bed, throwing up and going to the bathroom constantly for another couple of days. And then I stayed for an extra week to do, to become a meditation instructor. And both workshops were so powerful, just learning again how to deepen this practice of like forgiveness and inner peace.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  And to remove suffering, because I felt like I still hadn't fully had all the tools that I needed. To like let go of the mask and be at peace. And last year really helped strengthen my ability to be vulnerable and be at peace and not suffer as much. Not feel so guilty or shameful about things. And so meditation's been a huge plus for me. I mean, I've been doing it for years, but this style that I learned. And just being in an intensive environment for two weeks where I was, you know, eating vegan and on the ocean and just disconnected from everything. Was another powerful experience for me, so.

• 1:37:55Rich Roll?

  Where in India was it?

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  It was near Chennai.

• 1:37:57Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Chennai, on the Bay of Bengal.

• 1:37:59Rich Roll?

  Alright.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  It's amazing, man. It's a great experience.

• 1:38:01Rich Roll?

  And what was the technique?

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  Some of the craziest, they created their own type of technique where they have science, everything is backed by science and like the amount of breathing you do, how you breathe, uh, if there's humming involved, like how it's there's, everything has a purpose. It's not just like, okay, we're just gonna breathe for 10 counts. It's like, no, why? Because this is what happens with the brain and the body when we do these things. So it was all backed by science, which I liked. And there was zero religious. Talk about anything. There wasn't any connection to God, gods.

• 1:38:34Rich Roll?

  So was there a guru?

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  There's no guru.

• 1:38:36Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. You went all the way to India and you didn't sit at the feet of a guru?

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  There was, there was, there was multiple teachers. So there was like multiple trainers, you know, meditation, they, they lived as monks. So I remember, cause I'm a pretty like affectionate guy, kind of hug everyone and I try to like put my arms out to hug like one of the female teachers and they were like, no, no, no. I was like, oh, sorry. So I, I had a fun like teasing them the whole time, like acting like I was gonna touch them, but it was more playful. Um, but it was profound, man. We went to some crazy places in our mind, like some, they used different techniques, they used music, they use, you know, it was dark, we would do it in the middle of the night, they would wake us up and it'd be like 2 AM and we'd kind of be already be sleepy and they would just put us in these like

• 1:39:21Speaker 01

  meditative states and have us do different exercises and prompts to really try to see how it can eliminate suffering. And there's no way to fully eliminate suffering, but we can be aware of it when it happens and then move into a beautiful state quickly. And so that's what they taught us how to do is to be, there's only two states we can live in, a suffering state or a beautiful state. And the goal is to always be in a beautiful state when possible. Beautiful state of being. And, uh, you know, just reconfirming these masks, we live in a suffering state when we're wearing a mask as opposed to living in flow, which is a beautiful, loving state.

• 1:40:02Rich Roll?

  And that's a practice you've kept up since you got back?

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  For the first like four months, I was every day.

• 1:40:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  I do about 15 minutes, just 15 minutes in the morning. I can do it anytime during the day, but it's, it's not like TM where you're supposed to do it two times a day or whatever. It's just, there's, I, they, I learned multiple meditations, multiple meditations to help people when, as a, as an instructor, when they're going through different things, stress, fear.

• 1:40:27Rich Roll?

  Actively teaching people now?

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  I haven't been teaching anyone. I've been teaching like, you know, my girlfriend and stuff like that, but I would think I would need a lot more practice for me to feel comfortable, like facilitating larger groups. I'm sure I could kind of pull it off and get away with it, but I would wanna train some more. But I just more wanted to know the deeper side of teaching others in order to teach myself.

• 1:40:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  That's why I wanted to do the, the instructor training. And, uh, I'll tell you what, that time. I've never been on like drugs or medication or anything, but I felt like I was able to, and I always felt like I had a very powerful mind, like I could see visions and do things with my mind and manifest them in my body in the real world. But man, they just took me to a whole nother level of what was possible in terms of my thinking and thinking so much bigger and expansive than I've ever thought before. So for me, I really appreciate that level of expansiveness in consciousness in my mind and then I want to go back and do more because I felt like I was just getting started.

• 1:41:28Rich Roll?

  That's pretty cool, man. That's powerful.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  It's unbelievable. I mean, oneworldacademy.com.

• 1:41:32Rich Roll?

  How did you find, like, how did you select this place?

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  I found it, a friend of mine, um, a good buddy of mine had done, had went there for a few days and did it and it was like, it's life-changing. And this guy's got like super ADD all over the place and I saw him calmer. And he was like, you gotta go check this place out. He was like, Tony Robbins went there a few years ago and he, there's a video of, of Tony Robbins talking about it actually, where for thirty, forty years, Tony Robbins always talked about in his workshops, I don't know if you've been to one, he always talks about being in a peak state. He's like, you gotta get in a peak state and be peak state 24/7 if you want to create impact and results, right? So he'd always be like, get peak state, get in peak state.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  Two years ago, he changed his entire language that he's had for four decades or whatever to, it's not a peak state, it's a beautiful state and there's a distinction. It's hard to be at a peak state 24/7. It's hard to like be ramped up.

• 1:42:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, if you're at a peak state 24/7, then there is no other state. Like how, you can't be, like, it's, it's called a peak for a reason.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:42:38Rich Roll?

  You know, like I, yeah.

• 1:42:39Speaker 01

  And it's just not sustainable for the world. And so he learned through this meditation practice about being in a beautiful state and in a beautiful state, you can be in a peak state, you can be loving, you can be giving, you can be all these things, you're, you're in total flow. And it's so it's crazy now you go to his workshop, he talks about let's get into a beautiful state. And he learned it from this workshop experience. And so for a guy who's kind of like always been the teacher for millions of people for decades, to be able to change his philosophy. I was like, hmm, I was just curious to learn like what this is.

• 1:43:13Rich Roll?

  Right. So that led you there. And how many people were there?

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  Ah, there's probably like twenty, thirty. There was probably like thirty people in like the first week, which was like the the general five day meditation, like beginners workshop. Then I think there were like six or eight of us in the meditation instructor training workshop afterwards. So it was, it was great, man. If you ever go, I highly recommend it.

• 1:43:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool, man. I'll check it out. Yeah. All right, man. I think we did it.

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  It was fun, man.

• 1:43:41Rich Roll?

  So this is the third time I think you've been on my podcast. I think I've been on your, I think so.

• 1:43:47Speaker 01

  I've been twice, right?

• 1:43:48Rich Roll?

  The first time and then, and then when your book came out.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:43:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So I think this is the third time. And then I think I've been on yours twice.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  Two or three times, probably. Yeah.

• 1:43:56Rich Roll?

  So this is our fifth podcast.

• 1:43:58Speaker 01

  Good, man.

• 1:43:58Rich Roll?

  I think it was the best one, though.

• 1:44:00Speaker 01

  This is fun.

• 1:44:00Rich Roll?

  Maybe. It was good, right?

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  It's more organic. The dogs barking, everything happening.

• 1:44:04Rich Roll?

  Real life is happening, you know, it's like, it's good, man.

• 1:44:08Speaker 01

  So we're not living perfect here, you know, we're, we're, we took off our masks.

• 1:44:12Rich Roll?

  I know. Yeah, I don't live in a hermetically sealed world. You know what I mean? I'm in acceptance of.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Yes, the flow of nature.

• 1:44:18Rich Roll?

  The interferences that come. It's fine. Those are my dogs.

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:44:23Rich Roll?

  Uh, anyway, so the book comes out October nineteenth.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  October thirty first. Halloween, we take off the mask. On Halloween.

• 1:44:30Rich Roll?

  Halloween.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  We come as a, come as yourself.

• 1:44:32Rich Roll?

  Please tell me.

• 1:44:34Speaker 01

  Come as your true self.

• 1:44:35Rich Roll?

  Is this your, did you come up with that tagline, Lois?

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  Come as yourselves, baby. We're all gonna have a party on Halloween and we just show up as we are.

• 1:44:43Rich Roll?

  Are you gonna throw a big Halloween party?

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  No, I'll probably do a party a couple of days before because Halloween, everyone's gonna wanna do something else.

• 1:44:48Rich Roll?

  Everybody's got a, got a plan for that. Well, cool. So yeah, you're probably about to ramp up a ton of press. You want to New York and do all that kind of stuff.

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  That's the goal.

• 1:44:56Rich Roll?

  Cool, man. Well, the book is great. Congratulations. Thank you. I think it holds the power and the potential to help a lot of people. Thanks, man. That's a good thing in the world, man. So you're a blessing. I appreciate you. This is how you always end your podcast. I appreciate you in my life, and I do, man. It's been a cool journey that we're on, and it's been great to watch you impact so many people. And I have no doubt that this will only continue to grow and expand. So I wish you well and best of luck with the book. Thank you, brother. Let's just talk again soon, man. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. So LewisHowes.com. You're simple to find on the internet. Yep. Just @lewishowes everywhere. That's it. And he's cranking out content like nobody's business. Check out the podcast, the book, School of Greatness book as well.

• 1:45:41Rich Roll?

  And we'll talk again soon, man. Thanks, man. Appreciate you. Peace. Plants. Peace and plants, is that what you said? Yeah, I always say that at the end. Peace and plants? Now an airplane's flying over. Peace and plants. It's great, man. Thank you. Cool.

• 1:45:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, man. I hope you guys enjoyed that one. I hope it leaves you looking at yourself in the mirror a little bit more openly, a little bit more objectively. I hope it gives you a bit more courage to own and inhabit your truth, because it's your truth, right? So maybe stop hiding it and just own it. And I really believe that if you do that, I think you'll be amazed. Anyway, hit up Lewis on Twitter or Instagram, @lewishowes. Let him know what you thought of the conversation. Pick up his new book. Check out the show notes at ritual.com to dig deeper into today's guests and the subject matter. Always check the show notes out, you guys. We put a ton of time and effort into them. Again, you might enjoy checking out our new Plant Power Meal Planner.

• 1:46:42Rich Roll?

  Thousands of plant-based recipes, unlimited meal plans and grocery lists. Everything is totally personalized and customized. We have amazing customer support from a team of experts. We even have grocery delivery in many, many, many metropolitan areas. We're getting great feedback. This is life-changing stuff, you guys, and it's totally affordable, just $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year. To learn more, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu at richroll.com. If you would like to support this show and my work, share it with your friends and on social media, leave a review on iTunes, hit that subscribe button on iTunes. We also have a Patreon set up for those who want to support my work financially. Thank you to everybody who has done that. And in exchange

• 1:47:26Rich Roll?

  for that, as I mentioned the other day, I'm going to start doing a monthly AMA Ask Me Anything video teleconference with the Patreon supporters. I just scheduled the first one. It's going to be on November 9th at 2:00 PM PST, but you've got to be a supporter on Patreon to join. If you are a supporter on Patreon, you should see that on my Patreon page. Click the banner ad on any episode page at richroll.com. There's a Patreon banner. It will take you there and you can find all the details there. If you would like to receive a free short weekly email from me, I send one out most weeks. It's called Roll Call: Five or Six Things I Stumbled Across Over the Course of the Week That I Found Inspiring

• 1:48:06Rich Roll?

  or Informative. No spam, no affiliate links. I'm not trying to make any money here. It's just a cool way for me to share things that seem to get lost on social media. That's it. That's it, you guys. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, interstitial music, show notes. Shawn Patterson for help on graphics. David Zammatt for his photo portraits and video. We did do a video of Lewis, so check that out on my YouTube page, youtube.com/richroll. And theme music, as always, by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here next week. Until then, make it great. Maybe take that mask off, see how it goes. Hit me up on social

• 1:48:48Rich Roll?

  media and let me know what that experiment's all about. Alright, you guys. Peace, plants, love you, namaste.