How to Get Cancelled in the Tudor Court

Who was Lettice Knollys? And why was she expelled from Elizabeth I's court? Kate is joined by Estelle Paranque in this episode to find out how a man came between loving cousins, and explore whether getting with your friend's crush has EVER been acceptable. This episode was edited by Hannah Feodorov. The producer was Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kate Lister?

  Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:35Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely betwixters! It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back once again to Betwixter Sheets. Hello! Fancy seeing you round here. Do come in and take a seat. But before we go any further, I do have to tell you, once again, and from now until the end of time, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults, about adult things, and an adulty way of going around, and all the subjects need to be a little cheeky. Right, on with the show!

• 1:01Kate Lister?

  There are so many unwritten rules in life. Don't play TikToks loud out in public, that is a big one. Face outwards in a lift. Don't scroll through photos when someone passes you their phone, ever. And don't shag your mate's siblings, just don't do that, it's weird. Because if you do, it can all get very, very messy indeed.

• 1:46Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Betwixter Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with the Kate Lister. Getting on the wrong side of the Tudors is famously a bad idea, it will make you considerably shorter, if nothing else. But in this episode, we are meeting somebody who managed to avoid that fate, somehow, and instead was banished forever by none other than Queen Elizabeth I. And to introduce us to this Tudor scallywag, Lettuce Nollis, I'm joined by the wonderful Estelle Perank, who, as you will hear, is not Lettuce's biggest fan. Right, get your ruffs on and let's do it.

• 2:28Kate Lister?

  Well, hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. Welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Estelle Perrault. How are you doing, lovely?

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me again. I think for today's topic, I'm really hyped up. It's gonna be spicy.

• 2:43Kate Lister?

  Oh, that's great, because this isn't a name I know very much about.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  It's like, it's the type of people I just, I just can't stand. The audience needs to understand why, and then we're gonna get into it, and we're gonna talk about her. But yeah, I really can't stand her.

• 2:58Kate Lister?

  You can't stand, well, this is great, because you can now, you can basically indoctrinate me into why I should

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:05Kate Lister?

  hate this person as well. So what's her name? Let's give her a full name, first of all.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we're talking here about Lettuce Knowles. And first of all, I think I'm gonna give you a bit of background, because the background is actually very important to why then I do not like her.

• 3:19Kate Lister?

  It's a good name, though. Lettuce Knowles.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  I don't know. I feel like salad.

• 3:27Kate Lister?

  Oh, no, wait, okay. Okay.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  I can't stand her.

• 3:32Kate Lister?

  You really can't, can you? You really hate her. Right, fuck, yeah, okay, let's go. Stupid salad-named bitch.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  That's how I feel.

• 3:44Kate Lister?

  It's been 600 years. Right, go.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  It's crazy, yeah. It is insane, because she's dead and stuff, but you're gonna understand. So, first of all, who is she? She's someone very important, actually, at Elizabeth the First Court. She's born in 1543. She is 10 years younger than Elizabeth. That's important for the story. And she's a cousin to Elizabeth. Let me take you through the family tree.

• 4:07Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  She's the daughter of Catherine Carey. Catherine Carey is the daughter of Mary Bolin.

• 4:14Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  She's a Bolin. She's from the Bolin side. Her father is Francis Knowles, so there's an alliance of families and stuff. And it is true that, you know, when people say that Elizabeth, that's another thing that really annoys me. When they say, you know, like, she was two and seven months, didn't really realise what's going on, and, you know. You know, children don't really remember much. I really disagree with it. I think we remember, there's more research on this. It's just, it's just we can't access memories the, the same way we do at a certain age because our brain is fully developed. So, so I think that the brain is not entirely developed. But I think you realise when there's something happening. I think, and when people are like, oh, but she was not seeing her mother and, you know, that often anyway. Actually, you know, it, it's a question of like, Anne Boleyn was extremely involved in Elizabeth the first.

• 5:00Kate Lister?

  So you, you're talking about Elizabeth here.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm talking about Elizabeth because I think here you need to understand the relationship between Elizabeth and the Boleyns.

• 5:07Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  And I think a huge part of how she's going to nurture her Boleyn family comes from the fact that she did understand what was going on, that she lost a huge part of her by losing her mother. And I think it's bullshit when we say, oh, but she was two years and seven months, so she didn't remember she, I think it's all bullshit. I think there's something very intimate, but also very deep that happened to her. And I think that's also why she loved the Boleyns and her Boleyn family so much. And she loved Catherine Carey and she loved the salad lettuce knowledge. And so.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  And what I mean by that is, I'm sorry, is that she, she really favours the bullet, like the Carey's, the Boleyns, that side of her family. So when she, and I think it's very important to understand that because Lettuce Knowledge, born in fifteen forty three, the Boleyns, obviously, like the family is not, you know, I mean, Mary Boleyn has lost everyone.

• 6:09Kate Lister?

  We had Jan before to, to tell us that, that, well, tell us about her, but particularly that you're not sold on the idea that she did have an affair with Henry the Eighth.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  And we're gonna go into that as well. Like, I think we're gonna go into the rumours and how it impacts as well, like Elizabeth later on. I think what's very interesting that Catherine Carey is gonna, and you know, is gonna be close to Elizabeth, that Elizabeth is, but that family is also struggling when Elizabeth is not queen, obviously. It's not a very easy time for them.

• 6:35Kate Lister?

  It's not a good time to be a Boleyn, is it, in that particular aftermath?

• 6:38Speaker 01

  There's a stain. And there's a stain on Elizabeth. Like, let's not forget that as well, you know. How she's gonna have to fight for our legitimacy. But here, what I think was very interesting is how much she's gonna love her Berlin family, so the Carrie's. How she's gonna elevate all of them, um, how she's going to favor them. And it means that when she becomes queen, they become into favors, the, the women of the family enter her service. And it is a huge privilege, right? It is a huge, and what it means, Kate, and we're gonna go to that. It means that you have access to the queen, but not only that, I think Elizabeth truly loved these women. These women are our only link.

• 7:17Kate Lister?

  To a mum.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:19Kate Lister?

  Yeah, that makes sense. That makes complete sense.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Then when we're gonna discuss what happened, I want you to understand that bond. I want you to understand. Put you, you, you, yourself in the shoes of Elizabeth the first, you lost your mother, but you have an aunt that is gonna have a family. And that family is gonna become important to you.

• 7:39Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  And you're gonna favor them and you're gonna be close to them. You're gonna rise them at court, you're gonna really, really make them important. And Lettuce is ten years younger and without the Carrie's, without Elizabeth, they are bloody no one. All right, like, let's, let's be very clear, okay? And Lettuce is this kind of very much younger, there's ten years apart, a younger sister. And there's this affection for this young woman in her family, there's like, so she, she really liked Catherine Carrie. She, so she really likes Lettuce and these women are gonna serve her, they're gonna be our court and they're gonna discuss things, they're gonna talk.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  And I really believe that, you know, we have, we are limited with what we have, we have, especially in the sixth and street, what we have in the archives, right? But I think it doesn't mean that we should forget about what would have happened, like, what I mean here, we can make, you know, educational speculation here and like thinking, well, you can imagine that she would have been more herself. With these ladies than with other people, because these ladies were blood, these ladies were family. So they had an access to her, it, that was very, very close and very, very strong. And she loved them, all right? And so we're gonna get to why I can't stand the salad.

• 8:59Kate Lister?

  See, I, I believe you completely and I, I agree with that is that the idea that Elizabeth wouldn't have suffered any trauma from the execution of her mother. I, I think that's just crazy that just like she had to grow up and she, she had a legitimacy taken away and she was called a bastard and she had to. And then as soon as you're queen, of course you're gonna like try and expunge some of that, try and give your mum some justice. And I guess a way to do that is to, to raise her family up and to show an allegiance with that family.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And also, Kate, you know, like I think we also need to stop thinking that young children, you can do anything to them and they don't remember. Yeah, I think that's wrong. And I also think that though, yes, they cannot, you know, if I ask my son who's four and a half, what we did when for his first birthday, he probably won't remember. We went to the pub.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  But what I'm saying is like, that's not the type of question. I think that not understanding, you know, it's not just about calling a bastard everything. That must have been shocking and, and you know, her household being taken away from her. But it's also the fact that I think that she missed a mother that yes, she was not living with her like, you know, she had her own household, she lived in a house, she was raised somewhere else. But her mother was going and seeing her, buying her things, buying her dresses, you know, doting on her. So I think she would have known and I think the people, you know, a lady Brian who was looking after her would have told her about her mother, how much she loved her. And so I think it's very important because, you know, when people are like, what do we know how Elizabeth remembered her mother?

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Well, just look at how she treated the Bolins. It's a good way to see how she remembered and loved her mother. Because if she really didn't, like if it had no impact, why would have taken the risk to raise names associated with treason, incest, infidelity? Do you see what I mean?

• 10:50Kate Lister?

  I see exactly what you mean. Yep.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  And for me, and for me, that, that makes what comes next so disgusting. And that is why personally, I really cannot stand Lettuce Knowles. Now let's go back to Elizabeth because it's all linked to her. So Elizabeth is queen, she's 25, we know that, you know, she's unmarried. We know that it creates lots of problems. And we also know that around that time, fifteen fifty eight, there were questions about the fact that she's very close to someone called Robert Dudley.

• 11:22Kate Lister?

  I have heard that, yeah.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've heard that. And there's this kind of relationship, but he's married to Amy Robsett, Amy Robsett is gonna die in weird conditions, da da da da, so then it's gonna. But there is definitely this relationship. This, we, it would be a lie here if we were telling ourselves there's absolutely nothing going on. And not only would it be a lie, but it also, it would make us misunderstand Elizabeth and the way she operates, right? So I personally really believe, if you ask me, that she really love, really loved Robert. I think there was, I think he's probably the only man she really loved. Um, I don't think she loved Enjou or, you know, the man after that. And I think that if you're a lady in waiting and her family, you know that.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  There is nowhere.

• 12:11Kate Lister?

  We know that, they get that.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  They know that. But also like even on the more, I feel you need to imagine this twenty five year old. Who are the people she's really gonna trust? There, there's this woman called Blanche Paris, who um, actually was also a, her family was a bowling supporters back in the day. She's from Wales and she's gonna be by the side of Elizabeth all her life, right? But it's, it's by alliance, it's not by blood. But it's one of the women that is very, very, very, very close to Elizabeth. But let us know this, Catherine Carey, but especially let us know this when she is, you know, she's almost this, we call her the younger version of Elizabeth. She really looks like Elizabeth. She is very beautiful. Some people say she's more beautiful than Elizabeth.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  You know that always competing woman and also having this younger ver, you know, because you're younger, you're always.

• 12:59Kate Lister?

  The, the ten years thing seems to become quite significant in that because like, if she was like twenty years younger. Like you'd be like, oh, well, like, no, she, she's a kid. But there's someone about ten years where it's like, you know, if you could just knock ten years off yourself, you'd be really happy. That's just like you ten years.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Grow older, right?

• 13:17Kate Lister?

  Yeah, it's, it's like you just behind.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and also like, so you're no longer, you're fifteen, you're, at the, at the time, we obviously really believe that you're women. And but you're much, you're twenty five, you're fine, to be fair. So here the, I think the comparison is, is not so much, but you become a confident. She becomes someone that you, you know, there's just this kind of. Sister, sister bond, sister relationship. Now, let's just go back to one thing you say, you know, we discussed about Mary Boleyn being the miss. I really do not believe.

• 13:47Kate Lister?

  Just something else, Gareth Russell doesn't either. I think you should get together and and publish a book on this, on this one. You don't, neither of you believe that Mary Boleyn and Henry the Eighth were lovers.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  No, it just makes no sense. I mean, a- and also, I think, like, so now there were rumours that Catherine Carey, so the mother of Lettice Knowles,

• 14:06Speaker 01

  was actually Henry the Eighth's daughter. That's just to hurt, that's just to hurt Elizabeth. That's just to try to say, like, you know, there are so many disgusting things in your family, the

• 14:18Kate Lister?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  The bolling sisters, the bolling horse, it's all about this. But then it would mean that, obviously, Lettice is much closer to Elizabeth than we would think. But tha- that's not the case. They are cousin. I think that it's very clear. I do not believe at all for one minute that Catherine Carey is a daughter. And when people are like, but look, she looks like Henry the Eighth. Uh, you might need to get glasses. You know what I mean? You might, well, I think you want to see what you want to see.

• 14:45Kate Lister?

  Yeah, it's like a juicy piece of gossip, but the evidence is seriously lacking.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Exactly, absolutely. It doesn't mean that when you're, I don't know if you have cousins, like female cousins and stuff, or cousins, like, there there can be a a strong bond. It can, it almost sometimes can replace, you know, a a sibling bond. And when you look at the sibling bond with Elizabeth, Edward the Sixth, fucking psycho, Mary, um, not, not, not too bad. I like Mary the First, so. But obviously, lots of issues and lots of baggage and lots of, you know, I think, I think Mary tried her best, to be fair, giving her circumstances and what happened to her with her horrible father. But obviously, here, it's not, it's not a very good, stable family. So I really think she really leaned on the bolling women, or Carey's women,

• 15:29Speaker 01

  and really loved them and really nurtured them and really favoured them. So then, these women have access to Elizabeth. But not only that, I really believe that Elizabeth was. Very vulnerable with him. So if, for example, it's like you and I can imagine like we're, we're, we're family and we grew up together and you tell me that. And I know that you love this man, you can't marry him because.

• 15:52Kate Lister?

  He's already married.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  He's already married, but then his wife died, but also like it would create, politically would not make, it would create some chaos.

• 15:59Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Let's not also forget, as we all know, that the Dudleys, they're always in the shadow of power, trying to grab it, right?

• 16:07Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  So like, yeah, he doesn't have like with his reputation or his family, you know, they're obviously like all a bit power hungry, okay? And I'm not criticizing, I'm just saying, I'm just stating facts.

• 16:17Kate Lister?

  That's just what it was.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  That's just what it was. So Elizabeth is not gonna do it, but it doesn't mean that her feelings are gonna stop, right? And so she's probably saying, you know, uh, we know that she kept his last letter. We know that, that, do you know that it was not that easy? We know that in fifteen seventy uh five, there's like this, you know, in Kenilworth Castle, who knows what happened there? You're not gonna make me believe like twenty days in summer, Kenilworth Castle with corridors and this and that, that that's nothing happened. I mean, I hope that something happened, otherwise what a shitty life.

• 16:51Kate Lister?

  From the point of view of a sex historian, I always think that it's interesting that we look to sex as the thing that like cements a relationship. That like if you're not having sex and somehow it's not a proper relationship, I don't think that's, that's true. You can be desperately in love with somebody, like head over heels, crazy in love with them and not have sex with them. That's entirely possible. But I also hope she got laid. I also hope she got laid.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  To be fair, maybe it was that so bad, that's why she never married because she.

• 17:18Kate Lister?

  Entirely possible. Maybe she just tapped out and she was just like, God, that was such a waste of time.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  I mean, she would not be the person.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Literally, not the last.

• 17:35Kate Lister?

  Is Lettuce married at this point when Elizabeth is in shenanigans with the dashing Dudley?

• 17:41Speaker 01

  She's married Walter Deveraux.

• 17:44Kate Lister?

  Who's he?

• 17:45Speaker 01

  He's an important nobleman and he's gonna do, he's a military man, he's a strong man. Actually, I think it's, you know, I mean, I do believe that it starts as a, it's obviously an alliance and it is approved by Elizabeth.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  And they're gonna have three children, two boys, one's gonna call Robert and she's gonna have a daughter, Penelope, who's gonna be apparently a great beauty at Elizabeth's court. I mean, let's face it, like as I said, the salad is quite pretty. So, you know, I would believe that the daughter of the salad is pretty. But anyway, so they move on, you know, like this. But then he's, and he's gonna do lots of military campaigns in Ireland for Elizabeth, obviously unsuccessful. Elizabeth can't crack Ireland, you know, but at some point then he goes more and more into campaigns, military campaigns, and she feels a bit, to be fair, she's with Elizabeth, she's raised her children, but she's with Elizabeth. And you know, they just get on with their lives, right? So she's married, she's about like seventeen, she does her duty.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  She's still very much a younger version of Elizabeth. There's still this kind of really strong bond between the cousins. But then her husband is gonna die. I think it's fifteen seventy-four. And that's where I cannot forgive the salad. It's like towards the end of the seventies, Lettuce, you can say she's falling in love. I do not, I think, I think, no, I think you can't. I do not believe in this romantic shit that you just, all things happen. No, if you think that there's something, you shut it down if it's wrong. That's me, that's how I am. She's starting to be, oh yes, Robert Dudley.

• 19:18Kate Lister?

  Oh no.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Oh no.

• 19:20Kate Lister?

  Oh no.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  And that's where, like, I do not understand how anyone can defend Lettuce's notice about this. I do believe that Lettuce and Robert Dudley loved each other, right? I think that they might have loved each other, like I think. But I find it utterly disgusting because for me, you kill the sisterhood completely. And she went obviously behind Elizabeth's back. Obviously, he's to blame as well.

• 19:55Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Estelle and Lettuce after this short break.

• 20:03Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there, and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 20:45Kate Lister?

  How do we know that she went behind? So I'm just trying to get myself up to speed. So her husband is dead, she's widowed. Robert Dudley's wife is also dead, but he can't marry Elizabeth.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's tried, and 1575 is what we usually call as historians of the Tudor period or Elizabeth the First period. Like, we say, like, basically it's the last kind of attempt. So Cynhill Worth Castle is Castle of Robert, and he has this massive event, and basically it's this last try to convince Elizabeth to pursue her, right? Like, it's lavish, it's grand, and it's da-da-da-da. And after that, basically, you understand that there's no way, like, she'll never, ever, ever say yes. Okay, so he kind of gives up. But he gives up by putting then his own interest in one of the only members of family of Elizabeth, and that's where I think it's so wrong.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  I think it's all wrong. I also think it's kind of, um, it's not very healthy, is it? Like, it's a, it's a bit toxic. Like, you know, like to go for someone who looks like the person you've loved for years.

• 21:50Kate Lister?

  Oh dear.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  It's ten years younger. I do, I do, I do blame Robert as much as I blame lettuce, but for me lettuce here crossed a line.

• 21:59Kate Lister?

  How old was she at this point?

• 22:01Speaker 01

  So, um, Elizabeth seventy five. So Elizabeth is about forty two, so lettuce is thirty two.

• 22:08Kate Lister?

  Okay, so we can't even say that, like, you know, she's a young slip of a girl and has been pressured into doing this.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 22:13Kate Lister?

  So who, who and Dudley get together then? Behind Elizabeth's back?

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, they do. And so, and they married without royal consent.

• 22:21Kate Lister?

  Why did they do that? Why? I don't understand. Like, they must have known she was gonna be furious.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  That's love. That's because they loved each other so much. And I mean, what the actual.

• 22:31Kate Lister?

  That's just stupid. If anything, like love schmuff, that's just, that's a dumb move on the part of both of them.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  It's betrayal. She's so lucky to have her head. I mean, I'm so, I'm sorry, but like, so, so they both cancelled, like they, you know, especially like. Robert is also banished. They're both banished from court.

• 22:51Kate Lister?

  When does the Queen find out? When does Elizabeth get the, get the memo? Does she get an invite to the after party or something?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Can you imagine? Uh, no. So basically, they, they married. So it's, because it's, it's all secret. It's the late, late seventies. And there's just like, I, I think she must have a, something was going on. She must have, you know, like, there are rumours, there are gossips you find out. She found out. They didn't deny it. She completely lost the plot, but as I said, the lucky to have their heads. Um, they're banished from court, they're cancelled. She's gonna be harsher on lettuce than on Robert. And people are like, oh, that's Elizabeth for you. She's so horrible. Mate, no, no, no, I don't think she's more horrible. In a way, I think that the betrayal of lettuce is much, much deeper.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  A man is a man. She, you know, a man.

• 23:45Kate Lister?

  Yeah, but we don't let him off the hook too much here, just because, just because he's a man.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, absolutely not, Kate. But I think that you, for years he's banished, but he's gonna be called back at court. Um, and he, he apologised and he repented in many ways.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  And also, like, I think he must have told Elizabeth, I wasn't there, but like, you never wanted me, right? Like, so I had to get married again, but the question is.

• 24:11Kate Lister?

  You did have to get married again, Robert, but like, you could have looked around a little bit further than than you did.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  That's what I thought, that's what I thought, right?

• 24:18Kate Lister?

  If they did it in secret, they knew, they knew.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Of course they knew, of course, and that's why I just feel the betrayal is so deep because I I really want you to understand that Elizabeth really must have loved Lettuce like a sister.

• 24:32Kate Lister?

  It's family, isn't it?

• 24:33Speaker 01

  It's family, but also it's the only family she got.

• 24:37Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  It's the people she confided in, it's the probably, um, one of the rare people, like, she was like letting her guard down and explaining how much she loved him, but she couldn't.

• 24:49Kate Lister?

  Yeah, she must have known all of that.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  And so it's almost like you think, how could you do this to me? How could you, you know what, I just feel like

• 25:00Speaker 01

  on a, on a sisterhood level, I just feel like Lettuce has really crossed a red line. Then she's completely banished and cancelled, like, so Elizabeth's gonna make things very hard for her.

• 25:12Kate Lister?

  Where do they go? What does that mean when you're banished from the Tudor Court? Where'd you go?

• 25:16Speaker 01

  So she's never allowed at court again, like.

• 25:18Kate Lister?

  That's, that's pretty, that's pretty strict.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Um, Elizabeth obviously stops any kind of, um, gifts. Let's face it, she was extremely generous with her, with the Currys family, with the Bolins family, like Lettuce is a Bolin.

• 25:31Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  So she stops like, yeah, all the funding, all the, all the perks she had because she was family, all the perks she had because she was someone she trusted. You know, all of this, all of this is gone, but Robert keeps, so Robert is banished at first and he, also, let's face it, he was in the council. He, he had ways of coming back, like, you know, like, of getting his, his way in again, right? Because he, you know, there, there were lots of problems as well in the late seventies, early eighties with someone else called Mary Suritz, who's also a family member of Elizabeth, apparently little cousins are shit.

• 26:05Kate Lister?

  Well, she doesn't have a great track record with them so far, does she?

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. And I think that's, that's another thing, you know, like when um Lord, Lord Darley, Henry Darley married um Mary Stuart without royal consent when he's an English subject, that was already so bad, right? Like that, you know, you, you, you have to understand that not getting the royal consent was not something you could do. And so not, you know, for you, you marry in secret, but it's also like she's, this woman, your, your cousin is marrying the love of your life.

• 26:39Kate Lister?

  They must have been carrying on for a while as well, like in secret.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Probably, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. And so you just feel, and also like, I think that the question of like, oh my god, it's a ten years younger version of me.

• 26:50Kate Lister?

  Marrying the man that you know that I love, but you know that I can't. It's very painful, that, isn't it? But Dudley manages to worm his way back in, does he?

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Yes, Robert does. I would not say that Robert Lettis didn't have um a loving relationship. I think he's very nice to his wife and I think she's really nice to him, you know, I don't, I, I'm not. But I think we, we tend to forget that. I personally believe that the reason why he loves her, loves Lettis, is because.

• 27:16Kate Lister?

  It's Elizabeth.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the real love is Elizabeth, so he wants to go back to her.

• 27:21Kate Lister?

  Oh, that's just a mess.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  So he goes back to her and let, and but he keeps giving money to his wife because his wife is like, everything is, is, you know, is finished, she's no longer invited. But she still has influence. She has influence also because she has her children who are growing up and Walter Dever. Um, ha- her former husband, they had Robert Dever, who's gonna be the second Earl of Essex, you know, like. And he's gonna be a favorite of Elizabeth.

• 27:48Kate Lister?

  Oh, look at that. It's a bit, it's, it's like, we need to broaden our horizons here, people. Like, we, you need to look around further than just who's in the same room as you, I think.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Also, don't you see, don't, am I the only one who sees the revenge here?

• 28:03Kate Lister?

  I mean, yeah, yes. Oh, no, no, no, no, I've got that, yeah, clocked in, yeah, that's.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Because Robert Dever, I mean, to be, Robert Dever becomes a favorite of Elizabeth. Here, I do really do not believe there's anything going on. But there's definitely kind of, and I'm sorry to say that because you know when we always talk about older men being with younger women and we always say like, you know, that can be, well, either they're not criticised or we're like, it's a bit predatory, you know.

• 28:27Kate Lister?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  But when it's the other way around, she knew she had the influence, she knew that she was the queen, she knew he couldn't say no, she knew that, you know.

• 28:35Kate Lister?

  And of all the people to have picked.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  And of all the people to have picked.

• 28:40Kate Lister?

  Yeah, that's a fuck you, isn't it?

• 28:42Speaker 01

  She picked her little cousin. Can we leave that for moment as well? He is also a bull in. I found it disgusting. Let's face it.

• 28:50Kate Lister?

  Did Elizabeth ever confront Lettuce? Was there ever a showdown that we know about?

• 28:54Speaker 01

  So interestingly, you know, in the French records, we have like what happened, you know, with the French, to be fair, the French ambassador at the time, so it was Mauvissier. And this man is much more interested in what's going on with Mary Stuart and he's involved in the network of getting her out and what they're doing here is phenomenal. We're talking about here fifteen seventy eight to fifteen eighty two, fifteen eighty three, bonkers, absolutely crazy. But he's still gonna make a comment, well, you know, in his reports, like saying that, yes, that he's heard that Elizabeth is extremely upset that one of the closest ladies in waiting has betrayed her. Um, he talks about the marriage. And he's never seen Elizabeth that angry. And that says a lot.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Because Elizabeth has a temper.

• 29:39Kate Lister?

  Yes, yes.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  That says a lot. For me, that's very interesting, is how El- Elizabeth then kind of really take Walter away from his mother, because he's gonna be at court, she's gonna lavish him with gifts and she still hasn't forgiven the mother letters, right? But then, but then what I, what I can't believe is like what he's done. You know, I, I think Walter really thought that Elizabeth could never do something like that, but like, you know, with the, with the rebellion in sixteen or one. Where he tries to overthrow Elizabeth, what a mad man, but then he's executed. He actually shows no mercy. It's just like, and, and I think it must have been very, Lettuce is still alive.

• 30:24Kate Lister?

  Shit, man. Wow, okay.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Have been like, well, to, I mean, to be fair, he, again, he, he's the one who's wrong, right?

• 30:33Kate Lister?

  So, so he ended up on the block?

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Lettuce is some.

• 30:38Kate Lister?

  A favourite now.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  But you tried to overthrow her.

• 30:51Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Estelle and Lettuce after this short break.

• 30:59Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right. It took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 31:41Kate Lister?

  This is just a whole saga of stupid people. If you have managed to get the ear of the Queen and you've got a plum position at court and she's your bestie and your cousin, just keep it in your pants, for God's sake.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 31:54Kate Lister?

  Like, you stupid bitch, what on earth do you think you're doing? Throwing that away for a man? Are you insane?

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 32:01Kate Lister?

  Lunacy. And Robert Dudley, like, he could have just stayed there as, you know, the quote-unquote favourite. She's obviously in love with you, you know, you're not going to get married, but you're going to be pretty all right.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:10Kate Lister?

  But again, like, oh.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  And that's the thing, there are idiots. And if it was really a really strong love story, right? If it was really a really, we're in love, I think there was more infatuation if anything.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Tell them.

• 32:28Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  If Lettuce really thought, Robert, that it is the love of my life after Walter, who's dead, go to see your sister or your cousin and say... I'm very sorry, but these are my feelings. And I really like, can we talk about this? Because I know that would, you know, I don't, I just feel like there must have been moments of that we will never be, we will never have on record.

• 32:51Kate Lister?

  She might have said that you could get married, because didn't she offer Robert Dudley up to Mary Queen of Scots at one point? She might have said, get married then. She might have done that.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Might have approved it. But I think that is the whole secrecy.

• 33:06Kate Lister?

  Silly twat.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Betrayal. And so then, yes, she gets cancelled, but yeah.

• 33:12Kate Lister?

  The pair of them deserved it. That's just so dumb.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  It's not like we we're missing out. She's not to, I I do not see her as this incredibly intelligent, bright woman.

• 33:22Kate Lister?

  What happens to her then? Where's she banished to? And how does she? So she's has has children that she's raising. But like, what's the end of her story?

• 33:30Speaker 01

  She dies quite old, like in her eighties or something. She survived Elizabeth. You know, we know that Robert, you know, also died in fifteen eighty six in the Netherlands, um, fighting for Elizabeth and stuff. But the one he was writing letters to mostly was Elizabeth.

• 33:46Kate Lister?

  It's just all very Freudian, isn't it? It just all, like, it's just, looking back, it's like, it's so obvious what's happened here.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  And I don't know why she got into that. It was so obvious that those two had, you know, if anything, she should have seen that, oh, he's interested in me because.

• 34:01Kate Lister?

  Because what? Because what letters? Come on, because you're such a.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Remind him of Elizabeth, right? Like, that's one reason. So so do you really want to be option two? Do you really want to be back? She should have thought for someone who said, no, I want you because of you. I could not care less about your cousin Elizabeth. You see what I mean?

• 34:18Kate Lister?

  I see, I see exactly what you mean. And also, like, at some point, if she's fallen in love with Dudley and they've snuck snuck away to get married, she must have spoken to him about Elizabeth quite a lot, I would imagine. So she's she's got all of the information from all, this is just so, people are so dumb when they're in love. It's just, come on.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Well, is it love or is it really like?

• 34:37Kate Lister?

  Know what that is.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  I don't know what that is.

• 34:39Kate Lister?

  Was it worth it?

• 34:41Speaker 01

  I don't think what it, I don't think it was.

• 34:43Kate Lister?

  I don't think that was, that was worth it.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  And and also, I really think that it made Elizabeth even more, you see Elizabeth in a rain. Oh, I say that because I look at her letters and I and I'm someone who's read like her poems. That are very private and her prayers, again, very private. So like, I'm not saying, so I feel like I just have a kind of an insight here in the way she was thinking or something. But you see, as it goes on, she locks down even more. And I think that is also, you know, one event that really made her even harsher. If you cannot trust the woman who dresses you, spend all her time with you, the kind of like this woman

• 35:25Speaker 01

  group where you just share secrets and you share your soul and you share your desires and you share you. And that person knows, she can't say, I didn't know you liked him.

• 35:38Kate Lister?

  Yeah, no, not a chance.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 35:42Kate Lister?

  She absolutely knows. And just a pair of them, it's just, oh, do you think Elizabeth ever got over that? I mean, do you think like the fact that you know Dudley was allowed back at court was like a

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Let us know, she'll never forgive.

• 35:52Kate Lister?

  Never. Never forgives her, never.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  And I think, I think it's fair. Like, I think, I think it's unforgivable.

• 35:58Kate Lister?

  Does she ever forgive Robert Dudley or does she always sort of like you keep him at a bit of a distance as well?

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Very hard question. I think she has to forgive, as I said, like lots of, a lot of bad things are happening at the time with Mary, lots of plots against her life. And he's needed at court for political reasons, because of his networks, because of his understanding of what's going on. And so I think that, you know, I do not believe you can love someone you don't trust.

• 36:21Kate Lister?

  No, I think the damage is done.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think if there's no trust, there's no love.

• 36:26Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  And it's not love, it's something else. It's the regret of losing that love. You get attached to something where like, oh, I love the person he was before, do you see what I mean?

• 36:35Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  And here, I feel like she wants him close because she always had him close, but

• 36:41Kate Lister?

  Never gonna, it's never gonna trust him again.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Also, towards that end, you know, in fifteen eighties, it's very clear that nothing's gonna happen. He's never gonna become king.

• 36:48Kate Lister?

  No, not now. No, absolutely. So I guess that the answer to the question, how do you get cancelled in the court of Elizabeth the first? Is secretly marrying her boyfriend. And that seemed, that seems quite fair to me.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and, and, yeah, yeah, on the people that really annoy me. And it's, do you see that it's not political? You know, it's not

• 37:11Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  It's really for me, it's the personal, it's, it's just a betrayal of someone close to you.

• 37:17Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  For a man, for a man.

• 37:22Kate Lister?

  Estelle, you have been magnificent. Once again, I knew you would be. And if people want to know more about you and your work, if they want to write you letters about lettuce knowledge, where can they find you?

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Well, they can find me mostly on Instagram, really, because I think it's the only platform that is where I spend lots of time on. So just type my name.

• 37:42Kate Lister?

  You're fabulous on Instagram.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have a YouTube channel as well, El on the Tudors, if you want some stuff where I do on locations, or I review historical content, because, gosh, the Tudor's TV show.

• 37:54Kate Lister?

  Yeah, I like, I like watching you tear them apart. It's fabulous viewing. Thank you so much for dropping by once again. You've been a treat.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me, Kate.

• 38:08Kate Lister?

  Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Estelle for joining us. Your hatred came through loud and clear. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along, whatever it is that you get your podcasts. Coming up, I'm going to be exploring the most feared sex act under patriarchy. I wonder what that could be. Well, you'll have to listen to find out. And if you want us to explore a subject, or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast was edited by Hannah Theodorov and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, The History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.