No Mercy / No Malice: How to Survive the Next Four Years

By Jessica Tarlov, as read by George Hahn. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Scott Galloway?

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• 0:48Speaker 01

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• 1:19Scott Galloway?

  I'm Scott Galloway, and this is No Mercy, No Malice. Resilience, not resistance, should be the Democrats' strategy. How to Survive the Next Four Years, as read by George Hahn.

• 1:43George Hahn?

  Jessica Tarlov, a panelist on Fox's "The Five" and Scott's "Raging Moderates" co-host, has emerged as an important voice in American politics. This week, Scott asked her what big lessons we should take from the election, and, more important, what options Democrats have going forward. Scott will be back next week.

• 2:11George Hahn?

  In November, the sane middle, Democrats and Republicans, went to an appointment with the electorate and got a harsh diagnosis. We don't want to accept it or talk about it, but we can't stop thinking about it. We're asking ourselves, how do we survive the next four years? And is there any way to make them less bad than we have every reason to expect they will be? We're obsessing about some very unpleasant facts. Among them, the GOP won one-third of minority voters and registered a six-point gain among voters without a college degree.

• 2:51George Hahn?

  Kamala Harris got 7 million fewer votes than Biden did in 2020. Dismal. The time for grieving, though, is coming to an end. The key to moving forward, I believe, is to combine good governance energy with pragmatism and maybe a side order of ruthlessness. As the Bulwark's Tim Miller recently told me in Scott, quote, "Less agreeableness would be helpful to Democrats in Washington," unquote. This means, deep breath, working with Trump and the GOP on issues where we can find common ground while holding the line on our principles.

• 3:35George Hahn?

  In the spirit of new year, new you, I propose a Marie Kondo-style mental housecleaning for Democrats. As MK reminds us, the first step on the road to tidiness is throwing stuff away. Quote, "To truly cherish the things that are important to you, you must first discard those that have outlived their purpose," unquote.

• 4:00George Hahn?

  The main thing to get rid of is wasting resources, energy, and credibility, reflexively opposing Trump on everything and reacting to every trollish thing he says. Resistance may have been useful last time, but it won't work now. We'll just hurt ourselves politically and mentally. We should also stop trying to remind voters what a sleaze Trump is. They know, and they don't care. Americans, by and large, didn't elect people in November because of their party affiliation. They voted for people who they believed were authentic and who would really fight for them.

• 4:41George Hahn?

  If you're splitting your ticket for AOC and Trump, it's clearly not about blue versus red. Democrats must face certain progressive failures, especially in our big cities, and change course. If we want any shot at reclaiming the House in two years, we have to start proving now that we are the real fighters for the middle class. The common sense party that's serious about governing and providing better outcomes. Fortunately, on the biggest domestic issues—immigration, the economy, healthcare, and reproductive rights—Americans are broadly in agreement. That gives us an opportunity, if we're smart enough to take it. I'm not proposing surrender.

• 5:26George Hahn?

  I'm proposing principled resilience. I'm also just being practical. I can't afford enough Botox to rage the way I really want to for the next four years. For years, Democrats have been minimizing the immigration crisis in Eagle Pass, Texas, and other places on the southern border. Republican governors grabbed the chance to stick it in our faces by shipping people up north. Along with many liberals, I dismissed this as a cruel stunt—which it was, but it was also genius politics.

• 5:59George Hahn?

  Here's the reality we face. There is now majority support for building a wall along the border with Mexico. Incoming Borders Czar Tom Homan is saying we should get ready for roundups, and Texas is offering land for deportation facilities. Trump is talking about revoking birthright citizenship. At the same time, a majority of Americans still believe there should be a pathway to citizenship for the undocumented and protections for dreamers. What nobody wants, however, is more criminals in the US. Instead of terrorizing undocumented immigrants en masse, an approach certain to cost huge

• 6:44George Hahn?

  amounts of money and create social disruption and backlash, we should concentrate on kicking out crooks who are here illegally. The sanctuary city, which was originally supported by tough-talking Republicans, including Rudy Giuliani, was conceived to encourage undocumented immigrants to participate in American society, in part so they'd feel safe working with police to catch the bad guys among them. That was a good idea, and local authorities should continue to work with ICE on those kinds of cases, but not participate in mass deportations. Congressional Democrats seem to have gotten the memo.

• 7:27George Hahn?

  Earlier this week, Senators Ruben Gallego and John Fetterman said they would sign on to the Lake and Riley Act, named for the Georgia nursing student murdered by an undocumented immigrant last February. The legislation, which passed in the House, requires federal authorities to detain any undocumented immigrant found guilty of a theft-related crime. It's far from perfect, but it is good policy and politics.

• 7:57George Hahn?

  It is impossible for the incumbent party to win when 2/3 of voters believe the country is headed in the wrong direction. Inflation and the lack of affordable housing drove millions of Democrats to vote GOP and kept even more of them on the couch. Democratic messaging on the economy was, not to put too fine a point on it, really shitty. We kept telling people that all the economic indicators were pointing the right way. Those numbers, though, meant nothing to people struggling to feed their families. What we must do now is save them from the economic disaster headed their way if Trump's fiscal plan is implemented.

• 8:41George Hahn?

  First, tariffs. The vast majority of economists and anyone else who knows how trade works recognize that Trump's tariffs, anywhere from 10% to 60% on goods from China and 25% on goods from Canada and Mexico, mean things are going to get more expensive for already-stretched American consumers and businesses. Higher prices for produce, higher prices for building supplies, higher prices for cars, et cetera, et cetera. But while sweeping tariffs are a terrible idea, some targeted ones make sense. President Biden, for instance, quietly kept the vast majority of Trump's tariffs on China

• 9:24George Hahn?

  and even expanded some. That tells me there is fertile ground here for a middle position, opposing big dumb tariffs on our friends while supporting those that actually protect American workers from our rivals' unfair trade practices. Second, taxes. Trump wants to make his first-term tax cuts permanent through a massive reconciliation bill to be passed in the first half of 2025. How will those tax cuts be financed? By cutting programs that help the average American, of course.

• 10:02George Hahn?

  At the same time, Trump's plan to lock in tax cuts for rich people will add $4.6 trillion to the deficit. The deficit is an abstraction nobody talks about, except during an election year. We need to do a better job telling voters that big deficits contribute to higher costs now and only swell the huge collective debt our kids will be on the hook for later. The deficit is an enormous tax hike on our children. How should Democrats respond to Trump on taxes? In a targeted way. Catchy Trump policies along the lines of "no tax on tips," which opens the door to

• 10:47George Hahn?

  tax abuse by the wealthy, should be non-starters. And his proposal to cut the 21% corporate tax rate to 15% is lunacy, which we should fight. But we should consider permitting deductions for auto loan interest and other moves that would support the middle class. Everybody thinks they are overtaxed. Some of us actually are. On regulation, we need to show we know the difference between cutting red tape and tossing out necessary protections for citizens and the environment. The Supreme Court's recent Chevron decision limits the power of regulators. This should force us to take a closer look at the regulatory state and pare it back

• 11:32George Hahn?

  where that makes sense. At the same time, we have to hold the line where it doesn't. For instance, Trump's plan to let companies willing to invest $1 billion in the US breeze through environmental permitting. Forget about any meaningful cuts from Doge, by the way. It has no practical power, and Musk is already admitting he'll fall short of his stated goals. Trump's stated goal is to cut 10 regulations for every new one. Let's come up with our own cut first. Burdensome regulations on small businesses and housing development should be our focus.

• 12:13George Hahn?

  Check out what's being done about housing in Austin, or NYC Mayor Adams' City of Yes proposal as examples of empowering economic policy.

• 12:23George Hahn?

  Republicans have the slimmest House majority since 1917, and GOP budget hawks on the far right such as Thomas Massey and Chip Roy are raising hell about spending. That creates a middle way where moderate Democrats and Republicans can make sensible budget, tax, and regulatory cuts while protecting key entitlements. Some places offer more room to compromise than others. This election cycle put the threats to our health care and reproductive rights into scary focus. We made a big deal out of these issues during the campaign, and we need to make a bigger deal out of them now.

• 13:07George Hahn?

  Over 60% of Americans approve of the Affordable Care Act, a historic high, and 70% of Americans support abortion rights in the first trimester. J.D. Vance's vague deregulating ACA idea of putting sicker people into higher-risk pools is terrible. The anti-vax, anti-science movement embodied by RFK Jr. is frightening and could go far beyond slashing access to COVID vaccines. Dr. Mehmet Oz's support for Medicare Advantage for All would imperil Medicare as we know it. The movement in any red states to chip away at reproductive rights or cancel all access

• 13:52George Hahn?

  to abortion outright is intolerable. We need to fight these people and things as hard as we can. Fortunately, while Trump talks a big game about getting rid of Obamacare, all he really wants and can expect to do is make some trims around the edges. The proof of that is that despite years of saber rattling, all he has now, he says, are concepts of a plan to replace the ACA. Whatever else he is, he's not stupid. Trump knows better than to try to cancel a profoundly popular program. With this in mind, Democrats should take the lead on improving Obamacare by offering

• 14:34George Hahn?

  proposals focused on lowering the cost of premiums, fixing the family glitch, and reducing cost-sharing for new enrollees.

• 14:45George Hahn?

  On reproductive freedom, though, we need to hold the line. While some states, Arizona, Nevada, voted both for Trump and for abortion rights, in others, Louisiana, Texas, reproductive rights are under sustained attack. Here, I think we should call Republicans bluff. Democrats should propose legislation that sets a federal floor for legal abortion, modeled on the European standard, permitting abortions during the first 15 weeks of gestation nationwide. This approach would codify the national consensus into federal law, ensuring no state

• 15:28George Hahn?

  can restrict abortion access before 15 weeks. At the same time, liberal-leaning states would remain free to allow abortion access beyond that point if they want. Putting such a measure to a vote would force moderate Republicans to make a public choice. Will they stand with the majority of Americans who support abortion in the first trimester? Or with anti-reproductive rights extremists? I haven't talked here about climate, or foreign policy, or other issues, not because they're not important, but because we need to focus specifically on the issues voters just told us were most important to them.

• 16:11George Hahn?

  Also, Scott asked me to keep this to around 2,000 words. Those weighty matters are conversations for another day. For the record, I'm for expanding the Abraham Accords and against invading Greenland and Panama. Mexican President Claudia Scheinbaum doesn't need any help renaming large bodies of water. I have no illusions that any of this is going to be easy. I also know I'm saying something a lot of Democrats don't want to hear. Along those lines, check out the comments section for recent New York Times op-ed pieces by James Carville and Long Island Democrat Tom Swasey. Some parts of the Upper West Side are determined not to learn anything from the election.

• 16:55George Hahn?

  If you are searching for signs of hope, look at the electoral success of Democrats who subscribe to the kind of principled pragmatism I'm suggesting. Governors Josh Shapiro, Gretchen Whitmer, and Jared Polis are the top examples. Senator Fetterman gets it. Representatives Jared Golden and Kristin McDonald Rivett get it, too. Raging against Trump is a powerful and fun drug. Many of us have indulged and will be tempted many times again. Insert serenity prayer here. I don't rule out freakouts, but let's try to save them for special occasions.

• 17:35George Hahn?

  Getting through the next four years, minimizing the damage while taking the wins we can get, is going to take calm and discipline. Our best hope of winning back disaffected Democratic and independent voters is to recognize the difference between being right and being effective. We've spent most of our efforts on the former. Let's move to the latter. It's time to forget about the donkey and the elephant for a while. Jessica.

• 18:13Scott Galloway?

  Life is so rich.

• 18:26Speaker 03

  Did you know that mosquitoes have killed almost half of all people who have ever lived? Today, people are fighting back. With support from the Gates Foundation, American scientists and partners around the world have developed a new generation of bed nets that can kill up to 90% of mosquitoes exposed to them, helping cut malaria rates in half. The result? A safer, healthier future for everyone. The Gates Foundation, partners of human potential. Search gatesfoundation.org/mosquito to learn more.

• 18:57Speaker 04

  I'm Glenn Washington, host of Snap Judgment from KQED. Every week, Snap drops you inside someone's biggest decision. The kind of decision you can only make once. With everything on the line, what do you believe? What do you want? And what would you risk to get it?

• 19:18Speaker 04

  Find out, tap to listen now to Snap Judgment from KQED on Spotify.