Anthony Taylor: The Outdoors Evangelist On How Nature Heals

Time in nature is powerful. It’s healing. It fosters community. Humanity’s connective tissue, it shows you who you are and what you’re capable of becoming. The outdoors has played a transformational role in my personal evolution. In almost every way I am a different, better human because I make copious use of the untouched natural spaces available to me—spaces I access freely and have long taken for granted. However, the uncomfortable truth is that outdoor parks (nature in general) are places where historically not everyone has been entirely welcome. This is a paradigm we must diligently work to dismantle. It’s also the spark that illuminates the work of Anthony Taylor—an extraordinary human who has spent his life advocating for greater participation and access to outdoor environments, and the second guest to appear in my continuing series of conversations from my week in Minneapolis. The former Commissioner for Minneapolis’ Parks & Open Spaces and current Senior Vice President of Equity, Outdoors & Nature for YMCA of the North, Anthony is—at 62 years old—the very model of anti-aging. A skier, paddler, accomplished ultra-cyclist and overall outdoors enthusiast, Anthony serves on the League of American Bicyclists Equity Advisory Board as well as the board of the National Brotherhood of Skiers. He is also the founder of the Major Taylor Bicycling Club of Minnesota and the co-founder of Cool Meets Cause, an outreach program that teaches girls from North Minneapolis to snowboard. And he served as the Adventure Director for the Loppet Foundation—a program that provides year-round outdoor activities for youth in Minneapolis. This is a conversation about the nature of outdoor recreation to empower, enliven, and inspire. It’s a walk through Anthony’s origin story. And it’s an exploration of his love of nature and his accomplishments as a cyclist and adventurer. But the focus of this exchange is placed on Anthony’s important work as an activist and youth educator. It’s a history lesson on race, class, privilege, and gender in the outdoors. And the many ways we can eradicate the invisible boundaries that exist in these spaces today. Certain transformative lessons can only be learned through adventure—lessons imperative to youth development and deeper connection to our own innate humanity. Put bluntly, outdoor sports and time spent in nature aren’t just recreation—they are human rights. I guarantee this conversation will positively impact you in ways you may not expect. My hope is that it will help foster ways you can advance greater outdoor inclusivity within your community along the way. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll599 YouTube: bit.ly/anthonytaylor599 Special thanks to talented Minneapolis local photographers/videographers Bennie Wilson and Jordan Lundell for portraits & an upcoming video we are working on. Anthony is the leader we all need now. And this conversation is definitely a fave. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  You know what? I really believe that outdoors, nature, and adventure, like, kind of those activities, are the best place for us to actually grow and experience this thing around social-emotional learning. Something about outdoors is always about personal best. It's always about situational awareness. They're always about skills development. So, the best athlete won't always be the best climber, right? It's the person who masters the skills. The best skier will not be the best athlete. It'll be the person that focuses on mastering the skills, right? So, they're progressive, skill-based. They create opportunities for us to have self-discovery. You know, they're personal best-oriented.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Again, this idea of controlling yourself in an environment that you have no control over. That's the stuff that life is made of. And I actually think that outdoors and nature offer that opportunity to everybody who shows up. Everybody who shows up can have that experience outdoors. And for communities of color, for marginalized community, what I know is that those experiences are the ones that build your humanity, your confidence, that help you understand beyond racism's impact on you. And a simple example, and you all can go test this. I believe that women who spend time outdoors have a much higher body concept than the average

• 2:32Speaker 01

  person, because everything in the world wants women to hate their bodies. I think outdoors activities, hiking, biking, climbing, you know, there are these things we do, it actually reframes your relationship to your body around its ability to do work instead of the aesthetic. And I believe that's an opportunity for everybody. And for communities of color, it's an opportunity that we don't see in our arsenal. So that's my message to them, is tell me about the humans you want your kids to be, and my answer is always going to be take them outside.

• 3:04Rich Roll?

  That's Anthony Taylor, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 3:18Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody, welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you because this episode is a gemstone. Let me first, I guess, back up and just say for a wee bit of context that, as many of you know, the outdoors has played no small part in my life arc, my personal transformation. In almost every conceivable way, I'm a different human, a better human, because I make copious use of the outside spaces available to me. I think most would agree that time in nature is powerful.

• 3:59Rich Roll?

  It's healing. It connects you to your community, of course, to yourself. And so much of it is about connecting with what it means to essentially be human. The trails, the mountains, the ocean, the pools, these things mean everything to me. They are spaces that I access freely, spaces I consider to be an unalienable right, and spaces I freely admit I basically take for granted. But unfortunately, the uncomfortable truth is that the outdoors, parks, nature in general,

• 4:38Rich Roll?

  are spaces where historically not exactly everyone has been entirely welcome. This is a paradigm we must, of course, diligently work to dismantle. And it's the spark that illuminates the work of today's guest, Anthony Taylor, a truly extraordinary human who has spent essentially his entire life advocating for greater participation and access to outdoor environments. And also, the second guest to appear in my continuing series of conversations from my week in Minneapolis. The former commissioner for Minneapolis's Parks and Open Spaces and current Senior Vice President of Equity, Outdoors, and Nature for YMCA of the North,

• 5:22Rich Roll?

  Anthony is, at now 62 years of age, a very model of anti-aging. He's a crazy fit outdoors enthusiast, an accomplished ultra cyclist, and the founder of the Major Taylor Bicycling Club of Minnesota. By the way, as a quick aside, Anthony tells an absolutely mind-bending story about Major Taylor, who was the world's first black sports superstar. That story alone is worth tuning in for, but I digress. In any event, in addition, Anthony serves on the League of American Bicyclists Equity Advisory Board, as well as the Board of the National Brotherhood of Skiers. He's the co-founder of Cool Meets Cause, an outreach program

• 6:06Rich Roll?

  that teaches girls from North Minneapolis to snowboard. And he served as the Adventure Director for the Loppet Foundation, a program that provides year-round outdoor activities for youth in Minneapolis. This conversation is D O P E dope. It's amazing and it's coming up quick, but first.

• 6:35Rich Roll?

  Okay, Anthony Taylor. So I suppose in the most general sense, this is a conversation about the nature of outdoor recreation to empower, to enliven, and to inspire. We walk through Anthony's origin story, his love for the outdoors, of course, as well as his accomplishments as a cyclist. But the focus is really on the important work that he's doing as an outdoor activist and youth educator. It's also a history lesson on race, class, privilege, and gender in the outdoors, and the many ways that we can work to eradicate the invisible boundaries that exist in these spaces even today.

• 7:18Rich Roll?

  It's also about the transformative lessons that can only be learned through adventure, why these lessons are imperative to youth development and our own innate humanity, and why outdoor sport and time spent in nature isn't just recreation, it's a human right. I can pretty much guarantee this conversation is going to impact you, motivate you to get outside more, and my hope is that it will also help foster ways in which you can advance greater outdoor inclusivity within your community. I learned a ton from Anthony. This one is definitely a fave, so here we go. This is me and Anthony Taylor.

• 8:03Rich Roll?

  I mean, you're kind of a community leader at large, right? Like, you're just sort of out there in the outdoor spaces, you know, trying to get people excited about being outdoors. You're with the YMCA now, right? Is that the official?

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, well, you know, I should say it's like the job, but I think you're right. I feel like I'm an accidental advocate. I really had the great, you know, opportunity, I don't know, seven years ago to, you know, really step back from business, entrepreneurship, and then I decided what I was going to do. And this new startup organization called the Loppet Foundation was about to do this big capital campaign and do something that hadn't been done, which was do a partnership with a park and program it. And, and from, really from where we are right now, you know, we're five minutes from Theodore Wirth Park, which is this amazing park in the middle of the city. You know, the same size as Central Park, as a matter of fact. Is it really that big? It's that big.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  And, and so we had this idea of, well, let's build this, this outdoors, instead of a health club where you go in and work out, this is a health club building where you go in, but everything pushes you outside. Right. So you come in, change clothes, go for a mountain bike ride, go for a ski, go for a trail run, go for a bike ride, you know? And that was the idea. But, but really what was unique about it is it was, it was cropped right in the middle of the densest population of African Americans in Twin Cities, right? So if we're gonna do this, we have an obligation, right, to connect this geography to the black community in North Minneapolis, right? Yeah. And so that began me working really in community.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  And, and I, and what I say is like, you know, everybody thinks they know the solution from public schools. Well, and I say that the, the truth of the matter is that it's like, the only thing that makes you an expert on being a parent is not having kids. Uh huh. Right? It's, it's the same thing, right? So we know all the solutions for public schools until you're in a public school. You know all the solutions around working in the African community, you know, or working in, uh, under-resourced communities, or communities where they're challenged, or the worst-performing schools, however you care. You know how to do that until you're doing it, right? And that was a formative experience. That was seven years ago, eight years ago, and it, it just changed the way that I do work. In what way?

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Is that, one, I, I think, um, it changed the way I view the people or the community, because I think that the way that we start, you know, often, we, we do this in youth development, we do this with communities of color, we do it with challenged communities, is that we believe they need to be fixed. Like, we actually believe that, you know, truth of the matter is, something's wrong and we can fix it, right? Rather than thinking about them as really this whole person responding to all the inputs on them, and they're, and the real foundation of them is that, that they are an asset. To be cultivated and developed, right? And that they will then be part of creating solutions to make themselves stronger, better. You know what I mean?

• 11:12Speaker 01

  And so, you know, you make that shift mentally and then you literally start doing programming differently. You know? And that, that's what I mean.

• 11:20Rich Roll?

  From the perspective of respecting and empowering the young people.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Well.

• 11:24Rich Roll?

  And trusting in them to basically forge the future that we're trying to repair.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  And you know what else is children don't exist alone. Do you know any kids who exist alone? You know any kids who buy groceries?

• 11:37Rich Roll?

  No.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  You know any kid? Some, you know, but I mean generally, so even that is one of those things that you shift is you go, it's not a child, it's a family. Like, so if you're gonna, if you're going to actually influence a child, who do you really have to influence?

• 11:51Rich Roll?

  The parents.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  The parents. And if you're really gonna be, influence the parents, who do you have to be? You have to be the cool uncle that shows up on the weekend and says the same thing the parents say.

• 12:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  Right?

• 12:01Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, the cool uncle is often more influential on the child's behavior because the kids don't want to hear it from the parent.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  That's all I'm saying. I'm saying, so, so that's a fun, so now you're a partner to the parent. Same values, same perspective, different voice.

• 12:15Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Right? So, so that is a, that's a dramatically different approach to working with youth and working with families, right? And who's the real influencer? The parent.

• 12:27Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  So now all of a sudden you start, so you see what I'm saying? It's like, it's a, and I think that that's, that's a very, that's just one way that it influenced the work, you know, around it. But, um, it's just that, that's, and I learned a lot, like being in those schools. You know, we think educators are a challenge. Well, I, you know, our educators a challenge, our parents a challenge, our kid, who's the challenge? Well, when you work in schools, you have a lot of people in the ecosystem, right?

• 12:53Rich Roll?

  And you're constrained by the bureaucracy and the traditions that are baked into it.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. And, and so there is the bureaucracy built into it. Now, you know, post George Floyd, no one actually has a problem saying that the system is the challenge. And that systemic racism, right? Historical marginalization. I mean, all those things are real. And so therefore, where we have to work together and influence that is changing what? We change the people or we start impacting the system that are impacting the people?

• 13:21Rich Roll?

  Right, that that perspective or that idea about how to solve the problem spans the spectrum from let's just blow it up completely to, well, we need to work piecemeal within the system. We kind of know how that works. Nothing really seems to ever change in a fundamental way when you do that. But what really forges real change? How do you see, you know, the progress within our, you know, generational lifetime?

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and that's, you know, I think, you know, what Jim, the idea of changing in a generational lifetime, like, that is actually a really big idea, that this is generational change. And I, and I think, you know, even when you say that, I mean, think about the times, you know, you know, as an adult, over time, where when you talk to people about what's happening, and they think about it in this moment, right, versus it being generational, right? I mean, that even that idea is like, really?

• 14:19Rich Roll?

  Right. It's the legacy of decades past.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  That's exactly.

• 14:23Rich Roll?

  But when you look at the young people, I mean, imagine, you're a parent, right? How old are your kids?

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Ten and sixteen.

• 14:28Rich Roll?

  Ten and sixteen. All right. So you're a ten-year-old kid. You're growing up amidst everything that's happening here. What does it look like when you're forty? You know, when they inherit the legacy of what's transpiring now, that gives me hope and optimism.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it gives me hope, and I agree, it really gives me hope and optimism. But I will say that, you know, one of the things that's changed is at forty-year-olds, right, and actually even longer than that, and I think Minnesota's a really great example of this, and I think, I don't know, the East Coast is even a stronger example of this, actually, is that, that if you talk to someone old enough, if you talk to your grandparents, they will tell you they remember when they weren't white, right? So in Minnesota, what we have going on is we got the Swedes, the Finns, the Norwegians, the Jews, the Germans, you got, you got all those, right?

• 15:17Rich Roll?

  Somalians, too.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  That they're new. Those are best new to this. And they always been black. I'm saying that if you talk to people old enough, They will remember when white people weren't white.

• 15:29Rich Roll?

  Meaning like the Irish in New York City.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 15:31Rich Roll?

  Like who's the Irish in New York City? Who is the underclass kind of shifts.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Right, not only the underclass, the inhumane. So you have to, you have to kind of really think about the fact that, that in the beginning of this, this experiment, white people moved here and they weren't white. They, they were Irish, or they were Finnish, or they were German, or whatever the hell they were. But you know what they didn't get? They didn't get to be white yet. They hadn't earned that, right? And so the idea, I mean, it's just, and so here, we, matter of fact, I grew up in Milwaukee, right? So you know what really, like as far as the Polish, the jokes about Pol- I just, that always, I didn't get that for a long time when I was a kid, right? But people loved telling those jokes.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  But as I got older, I kind of, I got, you know, so, so they were the low white people.

• 16:18Rich Roll?

  But the systemic aspect of it, what's baked into it is the implied or implicit, like, idea that, that at some point you aspire to, or you inherit this mantle of being white, right? Like that's, it's like, when do you get accepted as being a member of, of the white class?

• 16:38Speaker 01

  That's right. So, so you have to, exactly what you said. So when do you get to be white? Not, it's not even, like, you don't even, and, and the people that inherited are the, are the second. But the first generation of people, they knew they weren't white. They knew they were Finnish, or Norwegian, or German. And you know what, and still, the Swedes don't like the Norwegians, and Norwegians don't like the Swedes. They gang up and don't like the Finns, and, and thank God, black people came along, because now the Finns got to get in the club.

• 17:03Rich Roll?

  Right. It just gets the cycle of like, when do we get to look down on somebody?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  That's right. And then socially, what we did in this country is we created economic and social benefits for whiteness. Like we, and that's, I don't even talk, I don't say white privilege. I talk about the social benefits of whiteness. And what we can talk about, if we look back long enough, we will see that there's been economic and social benefits of whiteness to the point that people dropped the ski off their name, dropped the son off their name, they, right? Because you want to be an Anders, not an Anders son, right? You, right? You want to be a, you know, a check-in instead of a checkinsky, right? I mean, however you do that, those, all those things you do, and to walk away from culture and this, and your name, and, you know, your look, and then you can become white. And then the benefits of that become where you can live, you know, and then government-wise,

• 17:51Speaker 01

  we, there's always been benefits to becoming white. There's always been benefits, social and economic benefits of whiteness are real, and they've been being compiled for such a long time that nobody, you know, who the second generation doesn't know the truth of that.

• 18:06Rich Roll?

  And so here we are in Minneapolis in this moment right now where it does feel like this is, it's a boiling over moment, right? Like, it's all coming to the surface. And part of that, back to this idea of hope or optimism, like, when it's all out there, now we have a chance to reckon with it, to grapple with it, and hopefully, you know, craft a healthier future forward. But, you know, how are you, like, it's crazy out there right now. There's, there's Humvees everywhere, the curfews, you know, the Dante protests going up in Brooklyn Center. Like, how are you feeling right now? Like, what's going on inside your head? How are you processing everything?

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, you know, I think the one thing, I'm actively, proactively, um, trying to do, you know, my own maintenance around self-care, that's one. Um, I think the other thing is that being, having a strategy for you have to take action, like, I think that helps. I don't, I mean, for me, part of my work is I'm actively taking action all the time, you know, around it right now. So, the ability, you know, like, even with the YMCA, you asked about one of the things we're doing at the YMCA is saying, we're gonna make our camp properties available for people to retreat. Like, just for free. We're gonna create opportunities for people to get outside and do it for free. But one thing that happened in the pandemic is that it forced people to think, maybe I should go for a walk. Like, I think that,

• 19:31Speaker 01

  you know, it's been, like, you know, so, so the idea of how do we position people getting outside, how are we creating spaces for people to do that, how are we creating conversations for people, giving people, forcing people to talk about it, because I think that one of the things that people thought is the best strategy for me is if I just don't feel. Right? If I don't feel, if I become numb, then I can, I can get through this. As a coping mechanism. It's just a coping mechanism. It isn't, you don't actually not feel, right? You know, you, you still do that. Repressing it. That's exactly right. So, so that's what I really have been trying to do is create outlets for really how I'm feeling, connecting to people and creating opportunities for them

• 20:12Speaker 01

  to do that, to go, really, how am I feeling? Like, how am I actually feeling, you know? And being conscious about the visual kind of digestion of it. Like, I've been very conscious not to watch the news first thing in the morning, not to do this, not to do that, you know, try to figure out how to get away from that dull noise and that, that distraction, you know? Right. All day. Right. And how are your kids dealing with it? You know, my 10-year-old, actually, the thing for her is actually what you just described, the physical presence of seeing the National Guard on a street that is normally really, like, that is kind of, you know, messes her up a little bit, right? Because that's, you know, that doesn't make sense. Or helicopters, or like, all those things

• 20:55Speaker 01

  are disturbing. So, really, you know, for her, it's been, been really working through that, like, and just talking actively and reframing, you know, why they're here, what can we do? And, and creating rituals for her to go to bed, you know, really, really anchoring ourselves in rituals of, of eating and activity and tho, and, and those kind of things for her to be calm. My son is 16. And for him, and you know, when you talk about the young people, as a 16-year-old, one of the things, and actually, one of the things you said, but one of the things that gives me hope is that these young people, their reality, first of all, is significantly more integrated than ours ever was. Yeah. You know, they also have had social justice baked into their.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  You know, reality.

• 21:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Like, they have always known social justice, even if it's just, you know, non-binary gender reality. Like, they are open.

• 21:50Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Right? So he has, uh, white friends, that they are aligning together and going to protests.

• 21:57Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Right? That those young people are understanding the language of social justice and around white evolution, around, you know what I mean? Like, the, the evolution of young white advocates. If you talk to them, they, like, they know all the language of being an ally. They understand privilege. They, they talk about stepping back. I mean, it's a very interesting thing. You watch them moving together, um, it's, it's, it's, it actually is, is pretty unbelievable.

• 22:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Um, and playing a, a support role in terms of your power and privilege, you know, providing food, providing, I mean, like, like, there's something that they're doing in terms of a dance right now, um, that is actually pretty compelling. And I, and I think you're right. Um, the, the challenge is that they also, um, they're not afraid.

• 22:45Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Right? They're, they're sixteen and twenty-two, so they don't have any healthy fear either, right?

• 22:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  You know?

• 22:51Rich Roll?

  That imperviousness, you know, with those hormones that you, that you have at that age.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. And the adrenaline is worth it all, right? You know, there's a part of them that that is...

• 22:59Rich Roll?

  That can go south, though. Like, you know, the, the sixteen, you get angry and shit goes sideways.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. And, and, and, you know, and that is the value of intergenerational conversation. Like, so even that's one of the things I think about, you know, in terms of why we have to stay connected to our young people. We may not be on the front line, but we have to stay connected to them. We have to offer advisory. We have to offer some of that, you know, those opportunities to kind of bring them down a little bit, create those, you know, those, you know, bumpers. You know, we want them, you know, we want them to go out there and throw them body, their body at the pins, but let's put some bumpers up, so that, you know?

• 23:36Rich Roll?

  Just a few, right?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  So they hit some pins, right? You know?

• 23:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, no, I, I think, I think you're absolutely right. And I, like I said, I think that's the value of, of intergenerational work, you know, and, and the role that we play. I, I really, I think that the, the forty-year-olds and the fifty- 20 year olds have to find their role in this movement too. And part of it is an advisory role. And then the 65 year olds, 75 year olds, like they were there in 1965.

• 24:01Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Right? So there's also an element of opportunity for them to really engage from an experiential. And you know, you know what I'm saying? Like that's a, that what kind of missed opportunity is that if we don't connect 1965, you know, to 2021.

• 24:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Right? In terms of the, you know, the moment, because they look similar.

• 24:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  You know, it, it actually looks, there's, you know what I mean? There's something, even in terms of the multi-generational movement of it. You know, it was a multi, it was a multi-racial movement.

• 24:32Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah. Tying to that legacy feels like, I mean, if you were somebody who participated in that, in that time, and you're in your 60s or 70s now. Um, there's so much to be learned from that experience. But also I suspect some level of jadedness, like we did this before, man. And, you know, look, we're still doing it again. Like, are we just gonna keep doing this?

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Well, and you know, and you know, so that's gonna be a great interview to see that. But I think that the jadedness, if the, the ones that are jaded, um, sometimes feel also unacknowledged. Like, I think there's an aspect of, of it that is also acknowledging that it began. Like, this is not new. Like, even if we just, if we just acknowledge that this is not new. It puts us in a very different position, right? In terms of how we move forward. And, and I think, you know, that, that's, that's something that is very, um, you know, very American too, right? Is that, that, you know, that we've, we overvalue 20, you know, generally. We, we honor value the moment of the 20 year old in general, and, and, and that is something.

• 25:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we've lost the reverence for the wisdom of the elders.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. That's right. And I think this, this could be an opportunity for us in some regard, do that again, to, to make that connection. Cause I do think that they, um, have learned something. And, and more importantly, you know where I think we really get value from them probably? Is the post-movement movement that didn't happen.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Because I think that they, the thing that they would say is they, they became complacent. They thought that those initial things around policy actually were a solution and they were just a beginning, you know, that they, or, or they got old and bought a Volvo. I, you know, I don't know what they're gonna say, but, but you know what I mean? Like, you know, that at some point, um, you know, even as we think about this, what do we do? The, the challenge for us is, is not to stop, right? I mean, that we, you know, you get a verdict, okay, now, whew, you know, is, we're good, you know?

• 26:37Rich Roll?

  Or we get a verdict that goes the other way. And we were talking about that before the podcast, right? Like, everybody's thinking about what's gonna happen next week, or over the next several days, if and when the jury comes back. How are you preparing for that? What does that look like? And there's a stress associated with that, right? Like, there's a, there's a, a trauma to that, that you're carrying around on some low level at all times.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  That's right. And that's when we keep thinking about it, especially preparing for a non-guilty verdict, right? Like, you know, just, and, you know, that, that, there's like, and I've heard two different things. One is the people who are saying, you know, I, I actually don't have hope for it. That's a bad place to be. And then there are the people that go, you know, um, well, I, you know, it's, it's not gonna happen, but we, we, you know, we're, we're ready to protest. Or how do we protect against the protest? Or, you know, how do we, like I said, how do we protect against the fact that people can respond and be upset against a lesser charge? And I think, you know, what, what I feel like I'm trying to do in my circles is say to people, you know, let's, separate

• 27:45Speaker 01

  from the trial that's going on, let's really think aspirationally for what is it we wanna create in terms of the world we're gonna live in? Like, really, what are the characteristics of this, of the outcome of this movement, of this, you know, this awakening that we have had as a community around what the challenge is, right? What is it we really wanna look like? And what are the things we need to do that? So, because that is independent of the trial, right?

• 28:12Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and irrespective of the outcome, or whatever the verdict is. There's always an opportunity, right? So if it doesn't go the way that you would like it to go, where is the opportunity in that to forge the change you want to see?

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Well, and you know, honestly, if you and I visualize a practical experience of what it looks like for there to be equity, for social justice to be realized, for us to, you know, if we think about that, independent of the trial, really, we're creating what the opportunity is. And if we know what that is, and you and I work to define, well, what is the work we have to do to do that?

• 28:49Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  That's independent of the trial.

• 28:51Rich Roll?

  Right, it's being proactive rather than just responding or reacting to

• 28:54Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 28:55Rich Roll?

  external circumstances you don't have any control over.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  That's, and that's the key part. We actually don't have control over what's going to happen there. But what we can do is visualize what that future looks like, put our, start defining what the work is for that, and let's move towards that. Because the truth is, that is actually more empowering for us, right? It actually puts our energy in a, in a good place. It gives us a hopeful vision for the future. I mean, and, and now you and I can immediately talk about how we ally.

• 29:22Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Right, we can, we can describe what that looks like. We can, well, what resources are you bringing to bear? You know? You're bringing media. You know, you're bringing this reach. What am I bringing to bear? I'm actually, I'm going to say, no, I'm bringing bikes and people. We're going to do, whatever we're going to do that, that does this, we can, we can start to plan for that now. We don't have, the trial

• 29:42Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  doesn't have to dictate that.

• 29:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  You know?

• 29:45Rich Roll?

  Meanwhile, you are getting bikes to people, right? Didn't you, you got like 300 bikes to essential workers and stuff like that? Like, you were, you were handing out bikes like candy bars for a while.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Kind of, well, you know, you know, it was last year when COVID-19 shut everything down. It was just an accidental thing that perked up on our radar, which was, and as a matter of fact, the first place we noticed it was New York, which is really interesting, right? That the essential workers in New York realized that the, let me say, the medical community realized the worst place you could be if you want to actually stay healthy is public transportation.

• 30:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Right? So the people who had the ability said, okay, I can bike. And they, you guys got City Bike in New York.

• 30:25Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  So people started using Knows there wasn't enough of them. They couldn't keep them clean. They took them off the streets. So then people started buying bikes. Bike shops were out of bikes in, in, into March.

• 30:34Rich Roll?

  And their supply chain's all messed up. So you can't even get new bikes. They're all sold out.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  That's right. They couldn't get new bikes.

• 30:39Rich Roll?

  Such a mad rush on bikes.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  And we, so here in the Twin Cities, Quality Bicycle Parts is based here. Most people don't know that. They're probably the largest distributor of bike parts in the world. And they're based like 15 minutes from here. So we have relationships there and they were already telling us they were out of tubes, like crazy weird stuff. So then we said, okay, well, how do we support essential workers who aren't the high earners, who weren't the early adapters and get bikes to them? So, so that was really the goal was that we, we worked with another local organization here called Free Bikes for Kids and actually Alina Medical, Alina Healthcare. We got 300 bikes and then we just reached out and, and again, the goal was really the frontline workers, you know, in our essential, you

• 31:25Speaker 01

  know, worker community. And we made bikes available for free. And we made bikes and helmets and locks available to them for free. And all they had to do is say that they, you know, that they needed one and that they would ride to work. And, and it was, and that was really the initiative. And, and then once we did that, we found out they needed bikes for their families. Right? So then we, then we organized another set of bikes and, and then we gave those to the family members of, of those essential workers. And, and this is back in March and April. So as you know, Minnesota, summer hadn't even broken yet. Right? And then, and then in, in May, it became helping people actually have success with riding new bikes.

• 32:04Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  So people got new bikes. People were trying to use them. And so then we really focused our energy on, on helping people have a successful experience.

• 32:11Rich Roll?

  It's such a powerful lever because once you have that bike, it represents so many things. Fitness, of course, but also freedom.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  You're absolutely right.

• 32:20Rich Roll?

  The ability to roam. And then, you know, I know this is a big part of, of your advocacy, but once you're out on a bike and you're not in a, in an Uber or a taxi or a train or whatever, you have a tactile relationship with the neighborhoods that you're, that you're kind of navigating through. And it really changes the frame with which you interact with those neighborhoods and the people that live there.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  That you, you, you hit the nail on the head is that in, in truth, it's not even about the bike. Right, it is literally about reframing the relationship you have to the place you live. Right?

• 32:56Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  I mean, that is, and, and, and really, for, especially in challenged communities, you know, there's a disconnect you make to the geography you live in some ways, right? You know, you just, you teleport in and teleport out, right? And you live in your house, right? Instead of living in your community, right? And there are lots of reasons for that. And, and, but that's exactly right. It reframes the relationship to the place you live. You know, and, and in a, in a really, in a, in a big picture way, you know, isn't the, the history of racism, the history of the way that, of xenophobia, you know, and the history of, you know, gender bias is actually all about limiting mobility. Like, is this, you know, or controlling the body?

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Like, if you really think about it in the, in those gross terms, controlling the body, right? Limiting mobility has really been always the point. So, so the bike itself actually represents this initial breakthrough in terms of creating mobility. Like, it's about mobility, moving through your neighborhood, moving around the city with freedom, right? As you, I mean, like, as you want to, in a self-propelled manner, right? And so the symbolism of that is, is really big.

• 34:09Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, it's transgressive in that regard. When you, when you juxtapose that or contextualize it against what happened in Chicago in, what was it? 1919?

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, when the, when, you know, the, the black person walked down the beach and crossed that imaginary line into the white beach and it caused all those riots?

• 34:27Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 34:27Rich Roll?

  Like, this is the evolution of that in a way to, to, you know, deconstruct those, those boundaries.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:34Rich Roll?

  That are not like, you know, they're, they're invisible boundaries.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  And that's, and that really is insightful, I think, is, and you're one of the few people who actually know that. Like, I think that's, even in terms of us putting this in the context of history, which is the generational piece of it, right? Is that, that, that 1919 event, and one of the things I point to that a lot is because I'm always saying to people that you have to realize that this issue of outdoors and equity is really important because one of the first great riots around race in this country started over an imaginary line on a beach in Lake Michigan. Right? Around this access to public space.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  Who has a right to be where? And it could cost you your life. That was, and, and, and that was the first one. But there's been multiple versions of that same thing. And more recently, when you look at the, the last desegregated spaces in America were public green spaces, were public pools. And as a matter of fact, white America in St. Louis or Milwaukee, Kansas City, Detroit, rather than let black people in public pools in those spaces, they'd rather, they shut them down.

• 35:45Rich Roll?

  They shut them down.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  They shut them down.

• 35:47Rich Roll?

  I mean, all you have to do is study the history of public pools in America, and it's literally a history of race relations.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 35:55Rich Roll?

  It's incredible. There's a woman called Bonnie Soy who wrote a book called Why We Swim. She was on the podcast, and a big part of that book is about that, and it's super fascinating. You know, I grew up in the, the Washington DC metropolitan area. I was originally from Michigan. And one of the things I realized when we moved to Washington is there aren't that many pools. There used to be, you know, every, in, in the Midwest, there's pools at all the high schools for the most part, right? And suddenly there aren't. Why not? Well, it all goes back to that very thing that you're speaking about.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I, I, I think, and, and that's again, a really, just the, kind of the point of, you know, why public green space, why outdoors represents something very significant relative to our fight around racism? Like that, that's exactly right. And I think, again, we don't, you know, even now, you know, the, we, we can actually predict all significant disparities by zip code. It doesn't matter disparities in healthcare, disparities in education, disparities in income, education, educational attainment. You can predict every one of those by zip code in America right now.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  And, and that is grounded in the work that was done for segregation, beginning in the early 1900s as well. You know, the initial things around redlining all flowed from the FHA, you know, mortgages. So from federally backed mortgages, that was the beginning of it, right? Created those delineations. And, and this city is no different than that. It was all around space and land.

• 37:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this idea that black bodies in public natural spaces have always been managed and controlled strikes people in a counterintuitive way because when you think of outdoor spaces or public parks, the kind of knee jerk reaction, at least, you know, me being a white dude, is they're open spaces, like they're open to everybody. What are you talking about? So it requires a more nuanced, historically grounded

• 38:07Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 38:07Rich Roll?

  You know, education to understand why they're not as open as one might suspect. So talk a little bit about, you know, what that means.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Well, you know, the, I think the, you know, the first thing, you know, that you described right away is this, that they are, they are public, but they are controlled. That we've, we've done a lot of things and, and there's two pieces to me, and one of the pieces I think that we often miss is that, you know, the movement of, of black people from the South to the North, all happened in one window of time, right? So the Great Migration happens, you know, really, but between 1950 and 1970, let's call it, right? And when all those people moved here, they were outdoors people. That's one thing I say, they, they was where black people connected to the land. They farmed fundamentally, they fished, they hunted, you know, there was, there was a connection to the land. There's a long legacy of that, right?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  And even in Washington DC area, as soon as you're not in DC, you're in the country.

• 39:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  You're in Virginia, you're in West Virginia, you're, you know, so they were people connected to the land. Beginning in the, in the late 60s, early 70s, you start to see this collection of people in cities, right? And the first thing they did was control where black bodies could go. So they actually created areas that where you could live in places you couldn't live, right? And then those parks, right, we wound up patrolling, controlling, right? They, they weren't safe in that regard. And the other thing that simultaneously happens is the

• 39:34Speaker 01

  The beginning of creating the identity of blackness as urban.

• 39:39Rich Roll?

  Right, the idea that urban and black is synonymous is a new thing.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Is a new thing, I mean, but it's only new if you think forty years is new. See, so we're old enough to go, that's new. But you know what I mean, like that kind of idea, new would be, you know, that's what I say. One of the, one of the, the negative things about the internet is history is what happened last week. You know, and that's, that's how anything older than that is pre-history. And, um, so, so, but you're absolutely right. The last forty, fifty years has been the creation where we, when you say urban, you could mean black. And as a matter of fact, usually when people say urban, they mean black, right? Um, and so that is, that's a new creation. And that grounding of identity has really been based on the fact that policing, geography,

• 40:22Speaker 01

  banking, housing has all been about controlling black bodies into very specific geography, right? And they're dense, they're not green. You know, it hasn't been a commitment to using natural spaces and necessary need for well-being, which is how we talk about it right now, right? You know, um, and, and so that's really significant. And simultaneously, you know, we get the, the growth of the, of the environmental movement. You know, as we see at the Sierra Clubs and, you know, those organizations all pop up out of the sixties. And I think that though, that was really white America's response to black power. Like, you know, you know, that you look at.

• 41:02Rich Roll?

  That's interesting, I never heard that.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  You know what I mean, when, when does, when does the women's movement start? The black movement start? The Chicano American movement, Latinx, whatever we call at that time? When does, when does the gay movement start? That, all those movements start when? Sixty-five, seventy-five, right? When does this movement emerge as we know it? Same window of time, same window of time. And so it's, it's, it's just an interesting way that that happens. And then, as this simultaneity happens, we get the growth of, like, like outdoors is the lone adventurer, you know, adventurer, you know, you need a lot of gear and it's recreation. And that's what we've grown in the last, you know, fifty years too, right? And I, and that's what, and I'm, I'm that guy, right? You know, I get those, you know, he joked about that, you know? You know, the rooftop rack, bike swing on the front, you know, this.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  So all of a sudden, you know, this way that we've cultivated it now is very different than, than what it used to be. Um, and because these are fundamentally socially oriented events, and really outdoors is fundamentally a social pursuit.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  We have to acknowledge America is socially segregated. That fundamentally, America is socially segregated. So, one of the things that black people, brown people do when they're not at work, is they organize with other black and brown people. Like, it's like a recuperative strategy. Because I gotta be in white America all day. Like, that's what we're like, you know? So, the way that I balance that is when I have my social options, they're fundamentally, you know, oriented towards whatever, whoever your people are.

• 42:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  And so, outdoors, as we see it as recreation, social this, so what does it black people do? When they, they don't hang out with white people, right?

• 42:39Rich Roll?

  Right, or they don't do that. I mean, the trope of like, black people don't camp, black people don't swim, they don't ride mountain bikes or go surfing. And then, the kind of legacy of that notion gets baked into the next generation of black people who then believe that that is the case and don't understand that there are external forces that have created that reality artificially.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  And young people especially, because you know, that's one thing I think working with young people has been, is that young people are always looking for authenticity. Right, you know what I'm saying? Like, they wanna do what's, they keeping it real? Like, that is real for them. They wanna keep it real, they wanna align with their identity, what they... And so, if you look at young black kids, you know, outside, you know, with, they go, "I don't do that." You know, that's what they do. "I'm aligning with what blackness is." "I'm aligning with those things that validate that identity that I have for myself." Right? And so, that is, that's part of it. And their parents are the first generation of people disconnected from outdoors. Right? So, they don't do it either. And, and if your parent isn't taking you, that's... But, but as far as even the black people don't camp thing,

• 43:46Speaker 01

  what's interesting is simultaneously, and there's, and there's documentation for that here, is black people did camp. Like if you look at the 60s, 70s, even the 80s, there were, and there's hardly any black people here. That's one thing, Minneapolis is not like, you know, is definitely in DC. It might not even be Denver, I don't know. But, um, but I'm just saying that I think that there are, there is documentation of lakefront properties that were, that were actually populated by all black families from the Twin Cities. Right? Lake Adney is what it's called. That literally, and it's in the mindest, and I know these families of those families who, who summered at Lake Adney. Right?

• 44:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  And they did that. I mean, so.

• 44:32Rich Roll?

  It's kind of a, it's similar to, uh, the history of Manhattan Beach and what's going on there in Los Angeles right now with the reparations.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  That's exactly, that's amazing story, right? You know, but even, even in, um, Martha's Vineyards, you know, there's a legacy.

• 44:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's still a black haven if you got the cash.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  If you got the cash, but, but the idea of a black haven at Martha's Vineyard in 1940, 1950? Like, people don't know. You know what I mean? That's what I'm saying. Even in the Poconos.

• 45:02Rich Roll?

  They now know because, you know, Obama goes there or whatever, but.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  That's right. But they think it's because of money. Right. They don't know that there's actually a long legacy of that happening. And, and, you know, I mean, that's like, and there were actually, uh, state parks for black people in Georgia.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Until desegregation. I mean, like, so that's what I'm saying.

• 45:25Rich Roll?

  Segregated black park.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Segregated, segregated state park outside Atlanta. Near Stone Mountain.

• 45:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  I mean, you know what I mean? So, so, so this is like, so that kind of, is, that's what I mean, you know, is that black people, no, black people did do that. Matter of fact, there's, there's a legacy of black people being deeply engaged in those activities. You know, up until this kind of new urban focus in terms of what it means. And, and you know, the part about that too, that I would say that's, that is, that is interesting is that there's, there's always been parallel universes for black America. Like that's, that's the way I remember it too, is you think about, you know, and professionally, if you think there's the Journalists Association, there's a Black Journalists Association. There's the American Bar Association, National Bar Association. So there's this way where black life in some way or another emulated white life only black.

• 46:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, the marginalization forces that that impulse to create their own communities.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. And so we had these parallel universes of all these different things going on all the time. It's always been that way. So there's always been a black outdoor movement. Even now, there's a black RVers. Like that's how, no, right now, go Google it, black RVers. It's a real thing of black people that RV that connect to each other and get out.

• 46:44Rich Roll?

  Well, there's also all these these cool kind of, you know, black communities about the outdoors, like nonprofits or community-based organizations that are cropping up like Outdoor Afro and Diversify Outdoors and Melanin Base Camp, like, you know. So that's happening in no small part, I would imagine, by the work that you're doing to try to create advocacy. But so much of it, it would seem, you know, social media kind of has its pluses and minuses. But the way I see it, and I'm interested in what you think about this, is that, you know, hip hop culture predominates as, you know, the largest cultural force in America or perhaps across the world. And the influence of that on young people is beyond profound, right?

• 47:29Rich Roll?

  But at the same time, you do have amazing black voices that are in the outdoor space, who are out there killing it and creating a different and new type of role model for the young black person to model themselves after. And I'm not casting aspersions on hip hop. I'm just saying they're different things.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  I think that, you know, the thing about hip hop, you know, two things about hip hop. Hip hop ultimately became this actual very shared experience for our black youth and white youth. Like, that's one of the things I think that is a shared kind of interesting experience for them. Because aesthetically, you know, I feel like compared to when I was a kid, I feel like you can you can no longer turn radio stations and go, who's listening? Right? Because you could do that for a very long time. You knew the audience always, but you can't do that as easily. You can't, you could not see a young person's clothes and go, are they black or white? So the style is very similar, right? You know, there's a much more shared social reality that our young people have.

• 48:32Rich Roll?

  A hundred percent.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  And hip hop is part of that, right?

• 48:35Rich Roll?

  It's a huge part of that.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying, right? So hip hop, you know, the impact in that regard is really interesting. The other thing that hip hop did was teach people The idea that I can virtually integrate my own money, right? I mean, as much as I can be an artist, I can be the producer, I can be the label. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna distribute this shit myself, right? Own the vertical integration of everything that I do. Everything, right? So, the young people now go, "I can be a corporation tomorrow." You know, there's a, there's a piece of that that is really, interestingly, different. I think if you talk to black America, and even, even adults that are over 45, you know, they have a much more traditional trajectory of terms of how they would get to success.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Right? Go to college, think, what are the pathways? Go to college, get the right degree, get in corporate America, you do this ascension, right? A very- Which is all about fitting in, or like, doing as you're told, or checking boxes, yeah. Assimilation was a fundamental strategy until hip-hop. Right? They, like, they, and so not only did hip-hop go against that, then the internet, you know, came along and allowed them to actually have the tool to do it themselves. And, and it's, and it just really changed the way that they, they saw the world and kind of their identity. So I think hip-hop owes that. I think the outdoor movement, you know, fueled by young people, that, that, the thing that they decided to do, and I, and I do know the young people, and, and I, I know Rue, MAP, at Outdoor Afro.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I know the people at Diversify Outdoors, I mean, these are people I know. But I'm gonna say that I think they were more innovative in some regards than I was, right? Because I do think they're the new guard. And I think that they focused their energies on changing the narrative. Like, they were literally like, "Yes, we do." Like, that's, that, that should be the website, "Yes, black people do." Because that was kind of the, you know, we, we do climb. You know, "Oh, no, we, we do do this, we do do that." And they then challenged the system against the fact that they had to assimilate. Right? You know, I mean, I think I've evolved because when I first started doing this movement, I just was trying to get black folks on bikes, right? It was just, but you know what? They were the black people that looked like the white people in spandex. Like that was,

• 50:48Speaker 01

  you know what I mean? Right? And, and, and right? I mean, that was, and so, but what evolved for me over time was that that wasn't really the solution. And so I've changed my strategies and sound now I'm much more aligned with them. And then the, the organization that you didn't mention that you probably isn't there, the idea of the global majority? That organization is really interesting because they're, they're making the claim that if there's solidarity past color and we look at the idea of not white and the global majority, then actually we are a majority. And if we're a global majority, probably we may be a majority outside, right? Just in terms of if we, so I think there, so then

• 51:30Speaker 01

  that comes along and really changes things. And I think that's, that's really, even for me, in terms of the, the idea of, of what we're doing. And, and so that's interesting to say that you were naming those names. So we used to be Major Taylor Bicycle and Club of Minnesota. We've done all these different, so the current movement that we're using here in the Twin Cities and we're growing is called Melanin in Motion. And what's been deep is the response from the community of people who said, I'm down with that. Like, like I think there was, like, and you know how, and, and if you're an outdoors person, you know how you talk to your friends and tell them, and they, and you say, you should go biking with me. And they go, okay, yeah, I'll go biking. But in their mind, what they're really saying, I am not going biking with that dude. He's

• 52:11Speaker 01

  gonna hurt me. I am not, I am not gonna get dropped. I'm not gonna have the wrong bike. I'm not gonna have the wrong clothes.

• 52:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, cycling's full of all that nonsense.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  It is. And, but, but that's what they're saying. Well, the same thing with outdoors. And so, once we took it out of like, it's, no, all we're doing is moving. We are, we are, we are a melanated community, getting together. We're gonna move somehow. It might be snowboarding. It might be cross-country skiing. It might be biking. It might be hiking. It might be snowshoeing. And there's no judgment. So this is, so just by shifting that, all of a sudden, people say like, you know, I'm, I'll try that.

• 52:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  You know, I, it was, it was really, it was really amazing. Or even in terms of the bike work, you know, as I've been doing bike work for a long time, about four years ago, I decided I wasn't gonna work with any bike organizations. So we were, we were gonna do community-based bike rides, giveaway bikes, but we weren't gonna partner with any bike organizations. Because if you partner with bike organizations, you know what it becomes about? About the bike.

• 53:07Rich Roll?

  The bike, yeah.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  It becomes about the bike, right? And then they, and then they, you know, then they helmet shame you. And then you get the unintentional bike shaming. We started partnering with arts organizations and it changed everything.

• 53:18Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  I mean, so, so that was like, and I, and it was just, you know, arts organizations are about the experience. So, right, so, so now we're managing people's emotional experience. And that's what I, that was like the light bulb and said, oh, we're using a bike. But what we're really doing is creating new positive emotional connections for people to, to disrupt what they already know.

• 53:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Cause that's what they're doing, right?

• 53:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, the more I think about it, the biggest barrier is the welcome mat. You know what I mean? Because especially in the context of cycling, because there's so much gear and, and, you know, anybody who goes into a bike shop, like a pro bike shop, you feel insecure because you don't know what the right question to ask is.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 54:00Rich Roll?

  And you see all this fancy stuff and everybody's speaking a language you don't quite understand. Um, but making people feel comfortable that this is accessible to them.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 54:09Rich Roll?

  All that other stuff comes later, but it's getting them in the door.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Dude, you hit the nail on the head and I, and I really, the way you characterize it, when you talked about the feeling of insecurity, what happens?

• 54:20Rich Roll?

  I say that as like a, you know, like a well-to-do white dude, you know, who, who has a lot of miles, you know, under my belt. And when I go to a bike shop, I still, I still kind of feel that way.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  But, but, but you saying that out loud changes everything. You see what I'm saying in terms of that? When you say that what I have to actually do is kind of like what I'm saying earlier. How do we see the person? How do we see the community? Do I see that person as, as, as they just don't have knowledge? Or do I go, you know what? That person is coming and they're questioning themselves. They're feeling a little insecure. They don't have the confidence here that they have in their normal life. So they're, so let me, let me manage that. And if you think that's what's going on, you come up with different strategies, right?

• 55:02Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Right, you, if you think they're unknowledgeable, what do you do? You spew knowledge, information, statistics, like that's, but if you, if you go, no, they're, they're actually having this, this emotional insecurity, this lack of confidence. They wanna, you know what I'm saying? Then you go, well, what do I have to do to handle that? And that's a whole different set of strategies, a whole different set of strategies. And then you can talk about information. If you handle that. That part of it, that makes all the difference. And that's what I'm saying is like, that was, that was what, that was the epiphany about working in schools and working with families. Like that, how I view what the challenge is, is totally shifted. So now I can actually address the challenge.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  I can really put my energy towards that emotional experience that we're having. And, and I think you and I would agree that a person, the emotional experience they have is more real than what's real.

• 55:57Rich Roll?

  Hmm, yeah, hundred percent.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 56:01Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent.

• 56:10Rich Roll?

  How did you get into all this?

• 56:13Speaker 01

  You know, I literally, I came here to go to college. Uh, my 18 year old ego made me want to play football at the University of Minnesota instead of the Ripon College or whatever, you know, you know, I had a lot of offers to small schools and very few, um, to big schools. But like I said, my 18 year old ego was like, no, dude.

• 56:33Rich Roll?

  Big 10.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Big 10. And so I came to University of Minnesota to play football and, um, I, I know I learned something really quickly in, in college. Everybody's big, everybody's fast, right? And high, and high school, speed kills, right? And, and college skill, speed can still get killed, right? It was like, everybody was big and fast and I was majoring in engineering and it was killing me. And I was on the, I was on the scout team. You know what I mean? You know, where you're running other people's plays.

• 56:59Rich Roll?

  But you got a scholarship, so you could come here.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  So I could come here and I, um, but I, but I quit, but I got an engineering scholarship, which is even weirder, right? So I got an academic scholarship. So I stayed and, but I quit playing football and as soon as I quit playing football, I, I got fat. And, um, so I started, so I joined a gym off campus that was downtown and parking was crazy. So I started biking to the gym. And one day I didn't stop. And I just started enjoying, so I started biking. And that competitive part of me made me do, you know, I wanted a different bike and different gear. And then I did a race and I met a friend, Louis Moore, who was older than me, who became a partner in crime for, you know, big adventures, you know, single day, two 25 mile races.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  We did a five day challenge from Denver. We rode from Denver to Minneapolis in five days. We, you know, our goal at that point was race across America or something.

• 57:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  But as we started doing it, I just realized there weren't any black people out there.

• 57:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  And so we helped a group of black women prepare for the AIDS ride from Minneapolis, Chicago. And I, I just was like, this is, that was more exciting than biking. And so that I, we, we started the Major Taylor Bicycling Club of Minnesota.

• 58:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So explain who Major Taylor was.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  So, yeah, Major Taylor was the first American born black champion in any sport in 1889 in cycling. And he was, you know, yeah, and just, he was an amazing athlete. I mean, just really his story isn't, he was an amazing athlete at a time when bicycling was the greatest sport in the world. And at a time when racism was, was at its worst, it was just post Jim Crow. And he, and one of the elements of his story that I really think is beneficial is that he, he partnered with a, with a, with a man from Indiana named Bertie Munger.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Bertie Munger was an older, white, big wheel racer. Partnered with Major Taylor in Indianapolis and ultimately moved to Worcester, Massachusetts to open a bike business. But I, I think many people talk about Major Taylor's challenges and his triumphs. And he was an amazing athlete and there's lots there. I think the fact that they were able to ally a cross race in 1889. And he was, he was, he, he did his first race, his first professional race, under 16. Wow. His first real- What was racing, what were they racing back then? They, so they were racing road bikes and, and really, when you, you know, the, the, the real exciting part of what they did was they were doing velodrome racing. Mm-hmm.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  So in Madison Square Garden, Madison Square Garden was built, the version in, in 1889, um, that was built was a velodrome. Get out. And they had 25,000 people watching bike races in New York in the velodrome. That is a history I've never heard. Oh, absolutely. It's, it's, it is unbelievable to how big it was. Um, and the, the, the first, his debut, like, race when he became a sensation was in New York at Madison Square Garden in 1887. And it was a velodrome, it was a six day, so they talk about the six day races. It was six days of non-stop racing. Non-stop, just going around? Six days, nine, nine days. You could stop, but the goal was to, I mean, it's just-

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Whoever got the most accumulated miles over six days? Yeah, the most accumulated miles in six days. On a track? On a track. And he finished at- In Madison Square Garden? In Madison Square Garden. He 20, finished at 2,300 miles. So, I mean, it's- Wow. It's just, it's just, it's an unbelievable accomplishment, but you have to remember, in the turn of the century, the bicycle was the pinnacle of technological achievement. Like, we don't really think about that, in a way. And what you said earlier about it being a symbol of freedom, it actually was a symbol of freedom for women, for black people, for P- it was, you know, it was, it was really, the automobile was undependable and horses were slow and, you know, so the bicycle represents, represented something significantly different.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  And Major Taylor and Bertie Munger understood that. Like, I, I really, I believe that, and I think, um, that is why he, um, for me, really, it was, and I discovered his book accidentally in the basement of a bike shop that I was working in. And, and, uh, he was just a forgotten hero. He's completely forgotten. I mean, it's like a movie. Yeah, and still, we have not made a good major Taylor move.

• 1:01:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I talked a little bit about him with, you know who Justin Williams is?

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:01:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so Justin's been on the show, and what he's doing in LA with Legion is unbelievable.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's really like moving the needle with this.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  But don't you think Justin Williams is what you talked about earlier in terms of the hip-hop community?

• 1:01:43Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:01:44Rich Roll?

  He's right at the cross-section of those two worlds, and he's able to bring that sensibility into

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:01:50Rich Roll?

  not just his racing and being an elite cyclist, but into this idea of owning outdoor spaces.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  That's right, and I'm telling you, and I know Justin, actually, I have a great picture of him with my son, and my son raced bikes too, and that picture, and it was such an amazing picture, because he was probably 13, and this was three years ago, here, he was in town for a race, and I've talked with him a lot, because I also know Rasheed Wallace really well, and just, but Justin is what you were describing, he is that young, black American hip-hop generation who said, "I can really integrate myself." Without, you know, he could be racing in Europe.

• 1:02:29Rich Roll?

  And it's not about, and in that, in that transgressive way of not trying to assimilate, he's like, "I'm starting my own team, I'm not going to Europe, I'm not doing that."

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:02:37Rich Roll?

  "I like the fixie culture, I think we can do something here in the United States and get people excited about the kind of bike racing that I excel at,"

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 1:02:46Rich Roll?

  "which is criteriums."

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying, that he represents that sensibility, and that fearlessness, and his understanding of where the money flows,

• 1:02:56Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  "how I can do it, how do I build the brand, and the value of owning my own brand," like, that's really powerful.

• 1:03:02Rich Roll?

  And bringing that hip-hop sensibility into the garments, right?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:03:06Rich Roll?

  Like, creating a line that is aspirational for a young kid who sees that,

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:03:10Rich Roll?

  because it's freaking dope, and you can't buy it unless you're on the team, so

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:03:14Rich Roll?

  he creates that, like, it's that supreme model of, like, you can't get it, man, there's That's right. you know, there's high demand and low supply.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  And I, and that's what I mean, I think is brilliant, and I, like, I'm working really hard to try to get him to come to Minneapolis this summer, so if you're listening, Justin, I'm gonna keep calling.

• 1:03:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  But no, but I really, I really mean that, I think that is a great example, and I think even Fixie Fixie culture is another one of those weird stories that, you know, that we don't really realize that the the idea of fixie culture actually also has black roots. And it has its black roots in the Caribbean community of New York. Because when the Caribbean's moved here to New York, the only bike they knew was fixies. So fixie culture and European set, that's what's bike racing for Europeans.

• 1:03:56Rich Roll?

  And putting like, you know, three spoke wheels on them.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 1:03:59Rich Roll?

  And like making them all crazy colors and all that kind of stuff.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  And that drove all fixie culture in the United States was really started by the Caribbean's in New York.

• 1:04:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the the the true history versus the the sort of conventional narrative. It's it's fascinating. Another example of that is um, I've had Sulema Masakela on the show. And he sent me his Afro Surf book. Do you have this book?

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:04:23Rich Roll?

  It's unbelievable. And this complete revisionist history of where surfing comes from and how deeply embedded it is in, you know, black cultures across the world.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:34Rich Roll?

  Tracing back to prior to, you know, what we initially believed began in Hawaii.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Right, and that's what, and see, I, that's what I meant by changing the narrative. Like, that's like a really a fundamental idea that the instincts of this of this current group is changing the narrative, so so you don't have imposter syndrome when you show up, you know what I mean? Or or you don't, you don't question your own integrity, your own authenticity, you're like that, because that matters to people.

• 1:04:59Rich Roll?

  There's a legacy here.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  And and you own, you're a part of that legacy. You're you're good doing that. And I think that's really, and you know, it's interesting, I I know Hugh, because my son was a snowboarder. And he's a competitive snowboarder. He was ranked 12th in the country, you know, last year. And this year, he got an invitation to to travel with the US Olympic team during COVID.

• 1:05:17Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  And he turned it down.

• 1:05:19Rich Roll?

  What?

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  I go, no, and it really, it was about culture. Right, he was in Park City last year. He was in, he was in Vale last summer with the team and got a chance to be with them. And. It's just, you know, it was really interesting that he just said, that's not me. Like, that's not, those are, that's not really my thing, right?

• 1:05:40Rich Roll?

  That's a Justin Williams move.

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  And I'm telling you, see, and I'm telling you, at the time, I was like, dude, really? You're saying, I didn't get it, but then I had to dig deeply and think about his decision. And at the same time, another young man, Brian Rice, I don't know if you've seen him. Brian Rice, 16-year-old from Detroit, who just is going to Worlds. He qualified for World Championships. And, and they were partners in crime. You can see them on Instagram together. They trained last summer together. It's happening. I mean, you know, and that's, and that's what I mean. And so I was on a call with Salima and Brian and my son and those other people. Because Salima also sees the fact that he actually is a pioneer. And also the narrative that all snowboarders don't compete. You can create the culture, right?

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  From, that's maybe a more advantageous point for creating culture where he is, right?

• 1:06:31Rich Roll?

  Right, because he was never competitive.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:06:33Rich Roll?

  He's a, he's a, he's an ambassador.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. And he talks about his legacy of getting there through skateboarding, through surfing, right? And board culture, boarders, the culture of snowboarders is really similar, right? I mean, it's just a really interesting culture of that anyway.

• 1:06:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  And so I think, you know, and we've been steeped in it. So I think that's the other thing that I've, I've really had the fortune to be on the inside of that community, see the good, the bad, and the ugly, you know, in terms of how it works. But ultimately, snowboarding culture is, you know, is, and a matter of fact, I, I did an article where I believe snowboarding is the culture that can integrate winter sports.

• 1:07:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  I, I mean, that's-

• 1:07:15Rich Roll?

  Well, if there's one sport that can, it's that. But the difference between snowboarding and surfing, yes, they're both board cultures, but surfing, just by virtue of geography.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:07:26Rich Roll?

  You have to go to these exotic places where it's an indigenous, you know, part, a way of life, right? So you're exposed to all these different-

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:07:34Rich Roll?

  -types of people, whereas snowboarding is really kind of like a white thing.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Well, and, and it's, and so even there, you know, it's a white thing because of the-

• 1:07:42Rich Roll?

  Because of geography.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Because of geography, right. And actually, and how can we predict disparities?

• 1:07:47Rich Roll?

  Geography.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  I mean, that's like, that's what's so deep. That's exactly right. And that's what I was saying, you know, to these guys. And so actually, you know, even that is an effort we're working on. We're like, we're positing to, and really, and Burton Snowboard is actually a really cool partner because they're being thoughtful about this. As we're saying, what we need to do is create small snowboard hills in the community. And snowboarding is unique in that you don't need a lot of elevation to build a really cool snowboard park. So what we're trying to do, we start, we are experimenting here in Minneapolis, and we want to do more locations.

• 1:08:23Rich Roll?

  Like skate parks, sort of.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a skate park. A skate park with snow. But it's only, I mean, it's 150 feet of elevation with a skate park on it where you teach, right? You help people have positive emotional connections, right? You help them figure out gear, and then you make it progressive. So the progressive experience starts five, 10 minutes from home, then 30 minutes to an hour from home, then you go 13 hours to Colorado. And, you know, then, then all of a sudden, it all makes sense. So what we're trying to do is put people through experiences to build the value of what we're talking about before you try to do this big leap, right?

• 1:08:59Rich Roll?

  But this city is flat.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  You know, we got valleys.

• 1:09:02Rich Roll?

  That's one thing I noticed.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  No, we got valleys.

• 1:09:05Rich Roll?

  Right. But not, not in the city city.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  No, we, in the city city, yeah. That's, so that's what I'm saying. If we have 100, if we need 150, 200 feet of elevation, you know, and that's what, the reason skateboarders coming out of Minnesota are really good is because they're doing hot laps on a small amount of elevation. So they're not doing...

• 1:09:24Rich Roll?

  Getting way more runs.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Way more runs. They're getting way more runs in, in the same amount of time. So you got, so all you need is 150-foot rope tow, right? And you put in obstacles, you can build jumps, you can work on everything, and you can do it in elevation where you get more runs in. And that's what I'm saying. So how do we, so we, you know, these, these, these flat, flatlander locations actually could be great entrees into snowboarding.

• 1:09:50Rich Roll?

  That's interesting.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  It's the same thing as Chicago, same thing in Detroit, same, every, right? All these flatlander places have these small valleys where we could actually, and they're close to the city, right? Because all the old industry happened close to the rivers, which is in the center of the cities. So we've got, so we've got a really, an interesting foundation for what could we do? To make snowboarding, right? Something is cheap and affordable, close to home. Because right, because now we don't have, now you don't need a hundred dollar lift ticket. You do a ten dollar.

• 1:10:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's no chairlift involved.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  There's no chairlift involved. That's what I'm, right? So, so this is where again now, but back to my point. So now we're thinking, what was the challenge? Right, once we, once we define a different challenge, we can kind of come up with different solutions. And I think that we, we, we spiral that up. And all the outdoor stuff is like.

• 1:10:37Rich Roll?

  Right. You probably know Dan Buettner, right?

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so Dan's a friend. Minneapolis native.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  Oh, he'd be mad at you because he's a St. Paul.

• 1:10:47Rich Roll?

  Oh, is he, it's St. Paul, yeah.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, dude, don't.

• 1:10:49Rich Roll?

  Sorry, Dan.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  That's all right.

• 1:10:51Rich Roll?

  He emailed me yesterday. But one of the things he always talks about is how this region is exceptional in terms of creating an environment that's conducive to a healthy lifestyle. And where I'm going with this is rather than, rather than trying to convince people they need to go outside or give them a battery of reasons, you have to create an environment that kind of marshals people in that direction. So the idea of creating that kind of snowboarding experience that is centrally located, accessible, urban, not intimidating, has a good welcome mat is part of that thinking, that philosophy, right?

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 1:11:34Rich Roll?

  But this area is well known for all of its biking, you know, lanes and everything that they've done to facilitate that. So how does that work? Like, that's sort of the conventional wisdom, but how does that work in terms of accessibility for the, you know, underserved communities and the underprivileged and the black and people of color?

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Well, so, and I, and I really love the way you kind of package that up because what I, what I think is, is that, that what you're saying is absolutely right. The city, and the way I've characterized, the city and the region makes significant investments in public green space, active living, bike lanes. I mean, you travel, we, we have a, literally, there's a belief that there's a park within one mile of every home in the Twin Cities. And the goal, the commitment is there will be a bike lane within one mile of every front door in the Twin Cities. So that's a municipal commitment. Because we are a city, making that commitment, we have an amazing park system, which is also funded by taxes, our regional, and I'm actually a commissioner on our regional

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  authority around parks, and so I'm pushing this, we therefore have a responsibility to do whatever it takes to make sure that these amenities are equitably participated in by all of our communities. So that's the foundation. We have a responsibility for that. Therefore, the programming that we do has to enlist the things we've been talking about. It has to solve the obstacle of a bike. It has to solve the obstacle of the skills needed to be successful at it. It has to solve the obstacle of the historical reality that we have created in our public spaces, that says black people don't belong here. Right? We have to, the last thing we have to solve is the culture that says whoever's moving the fastest with the most momentum and the most skill has the most right. I mean, I,

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  that, that is the last part that, that really, because that's what happens, right? People make up their mind, they get out there, and then they get screamed at by somebody going faster than them, right? And it trickles down. It's the, it's the roadie against the, you know, the guy who's on a, on a, you know, on a city bike, and it's a city bike against a kid on a bike, and it's, and it's the pecking, and then it's that kid against a walker and a woman with a stroller. You know what I mean? It's like, and so that culture is what flows downhill. And so that's, those are the things that, that as a municipality, as a region, as a city committed to those things, we have to handle that too. And, and, and we can do that. And I, I tell you what, the cost of giving every kid in the Minneapolis public school system a bike in third grade, what would that take? What would that, that's

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  not even-

• 1:14:06Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's a blip on the radar of a city budget.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And if we did that, we, we, that, now that's equity. We're redistributing resources, right, in a real way to serve the needs of people. Those are big ideas. And, and you know that, you know, it's one of you talk about Dan Buettner, and I'm a fan of his work, and one of the biggest reasons I'm a fan of his work is because what he really points out in Blue Zones and continues to point out in this work, is that the fundamental of active living is baked into the cultural reality of a people. Right? So when he talked about those Sardinian, you know, fishermen and their walk to the thing, and then having wine and can, you know, the, the Okinawan housewives, you know, the Seventh Day Adventists, you know, community, and that really, what's the ultimate measure of health?

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  It's actually connectedness. Like, like that's, I mean, it, the ultimate measure of health is actually connectedness. So if we make the goal of all of our active living activities, building community, we win. And what, rather than fitness, rather than this. So, so that's, that's another shift in terms of my own growth, is that that's the ultimate goal of everything I do in terms of outdoors.

• 1:15:17Rich Roll?

  Right. Because if you achieve that, if you create that level of deep connectivity and community, everything else flows from that.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  There you go. That's exactly right. And I, and I'm just, that, that is, again, it just sounds too simple, right?

• 1:15:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  But, but ultimately, that's a huge shift for us as outdoor advocates, is a huge shift for us as active living advocates, even, even people who are focused on food as medicine and they, you know, they, that really, if you build community around whatever that thing is, if you make the result of that experience, building community, you win. And, and people, it'll, and then it will perpetuate. Right? It'll become self-validating.

• 1:15:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The, the losing battle is trying to get people interested in something that feels like an obligation or a burden or

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:16:05Rich Roll?

  A situation in which they have to go out of their way or inconvenience themselves.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  That's right. And I, and that's what I, I really, I mean, that was like from, I mean, there's lots of takeaways from Blue Zones, but I, I think one of the biggest takeaways for me personally was, you know, because I, I talk about the Okinawan housewives all the time, is the fact that sitting in a chair is killing us, right? And even that, you know, simple idea versus sitting on the floor and getting up and sitting down and getting up and sitting down and getting up. And that idea of how do you integrate movement into your life is really a very, and rather than, that's why it's melanin in motion and that melanin on bikes.

• 1:16:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 1:16:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Or melanin on a run.

• 1:16:43Rich Roll?

  Right, right. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:16:46Rich Roll?

  Um, we went out to ride bikes the other night. What's the ride share here? It's called like Nice Bike, Nice Ride, yeah. And, uh, it wouldn't let us. It was like, we, we tried like four different credit cards, a whole bunch of us trying to rent bikes, and I think it was because of what's going on here. Like, they just locked it down. And they don't want people riding bikes around.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  And you know what else? They might be doing it for out of, out of town credit cards.

• 1:17:11Rich Roll?

  Maybe.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  Because that's

• 1:17:12Rich Roll?

  If they don't want out of towners riding, taking nice rides.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  Well, because, because they're, you know, vandalism, people get whatever it is, it might be more of that than anything. And, and that's interesting. I'm going to check that now. But, but even, you know, even that is Lyft. You know that, right?

• 1:17:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Right. So what I will say is Lyft has really done an interesting job here of coming, coming in and connecting to community advocates around promoting their programming. So they, so I think they've actually done an interesting job of that. But Nice Ride is one of those efforts that really, it was a problem when we first opened it. And, and we actually created, worked with them and created an equity initiative to specifically focus on communities of color and low to moderate income communities with pricing, with introduction, with what you, you know, the welcome mat. I mean, we created a series of, of rides and activities were all about connectedness. And that, and that really worked. And that ultimately turned into our slow roll movement.

• 1:18:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  You know, that really, that whole thing kind of came.

• 1:18:14Rich Roll?

  The slow roll being like the group participatory rides that you guys organize. Yeah. Well, one thing about Nice Ride, you gotta fix that user interface, man. It makes you click through like, you know, 20 pages of disclaimers and stuff like that. I'm like, that's a barrier.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I, I think that that was baked into the very first versions of it because of, it was sponsored too. So like, we had healthcare organizations as the key sponsors. And so I, and the city, and so I think, you know, you're absolutely right about that.

• 1:18:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. They look like nice bikes, though.

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the new ones are electric.

• 1:18:48Rich Roll?

  Like city, you know, kind of rental bikes.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's, it's a good system and they've always upgraded the fleet. And they make sense here because our, our footprint is so small.

• 1:18:57Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  You know, three miles in any direction and you have covered major territory in Minneapolis.

• 1:19:02Rich Roll?

  It's been interesting to see how various cities have responded to COVID. And, you know, I often look at Manhattan and you see those images of the streets closed and everybody's just walking and they're riding bikes. And I'm like, here's the one moment in a lifetime where you could, like, Change everything and just say, no more residential vehicles in Manhattan. You know, just, just delivery trucks and maybe some, you know, ride shares or whatever. But let's close off a bunch of these thoroughfares and adopt a more European Blue Zones model. Because people seem to be enjoying it. And the cafes are popping up on the street with the outdoor eating and all of that.

• 1:19:44Rich Roll?

  And it felt like an opportunity to really remodel and reimagine the urban landscape. But I don't think it's, you know, I don't know how many places really jumped on that. And obviously, there's, there's so many, I mean, it's such a difficult thing to accomplish. But it just felt like an opportunity that I wish had been kind of capitalized on a little bit more.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  Well, you know what's happening now is that, you know, that this is our, this is our year to capitalize on it, right? Last year's budget was set when, when the pandemic set, you know, the programming was set. So I'm waiting to see what happens this season. So I, I am, I'm actually more hopeful because we're still in the pandemic. Yeah. And it's the spring, but I, but I think that it's those habits. Now, the work of advocates is not getting people on bikes, it's keeping people on bikes. Right? So, so that's the work this year. And so I think there's, again, that's where we have to make a shift in terms of what we're doing. I do, I mean, I actually laugh because I don't know if you, but if, if someone told you all you needed to do to get people on bikes was start a global pandemic, would you have done it? You know what I mean?

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  Most bike advocates.

• 1:20:53Rich Roll?

  Think about that.

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, think about, but you know what I mean? But that was kind of what happened. But, but even think about the number of cities that actually closed streets. Like they, they never thought, they, they closed streets to traffic and made them available for people to walk on. Here in the Twin Cities, we have what we call the grand rounds. They, they wrap around this, the chain of lakes we have here and over to the Mississippi River. And they closed them last year to traffic, totally closed them to traffic, and they were packed. So I think that one, two things happened. The city did it and nobody lost their mind. And people showed up and, and, and the research we have initially says that communities of color showed up in heightened numbers compared to what we've done historically. Women showed up in higher numbers than what they have historically, right?

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  I mean, children, people with children. So we actually kind of proved the point that we were going, well, what would it take to do that? And that's, that's what it took. And so again, once those people were out, we decided, okay, we're going to handle those introductory experiences, right? And so that became the goal of our efforts last summer was those, was those introductory experiences, even flowing from the bikes for essential workers was, well, you got a new bike now. What's the first thing you should know? And taking people in parking lots. I mean, you know, I mean, like taking adults and saying, okay, these are the handlebars.

• 1:22:14Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  So when you're waiting for a thing, this is what you do. You put your pedal here and put your foot on it and not rolling yet. But now, but squeeze your brakes when you're sitting still on your bike because that keeps it from rolling. You know, lean your bike over to you when you step over it instead of throwing it through. Like that's just so rudimentary, right? Lean your bike over to you instead of throwing your leg over the seat. And you, everybody tries to do that. They all get a bike and they try to throw their leg over the seat. I'm like, dude, you're 40, your flexibility is done, right? But instead of saying that, I say, let me make that, lean your bike over and step over it.

• 1:22:51Rich Roll?

  Well, the closing of the streets and all the people outpouring into them. I mean, that, that is, that's the community, like that's the, the breeding ground for the community. So the question then becomes, can you make that stick?

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:23:03Rich Roll?

  Everybody's so intent on like getting back to normal or some version of the way things used to be. And we're myopic to the opportunity that we're being presented with.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I agree and I, and I think, but, but, but even in, in, you know, with that, like, so that's again, when we say, well, what is our work? Our work, you know, kind of related to the trial is to help people visualize a future that's different. Like, it isn't getting back to normal. Like, I, like, I think that's really important, what you said, is that is, you know, what we, what we, we want to get back to freedom? What we perceive as freedom? That's really more? Do you wanna, what is it you want to get back to? But the number of people that have had more time with their kids this year than they ever have before and appreciate them differently is tremendous. They may never go back to work the same way they went back to work, right? So, it is this thing where we have to help people focus on the realization of these

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  other positive benefits and connect the emotional outcome of those benefits to them if we want them to stick. And, and that's, you know, again, that's not the American way. We're always selling, you know, all the marketers have kind of found their way to make COVID-19 a springboard to buy more stuff. You know what I mean? And so I think, I think, again, for all the advocates out there, our work this year is to identify everybody who got a bike and help them have a positive experience this summer. Help them have an expansive, progressive, growth-oriented experience with that bike they purchased, you know?

• 1:24:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  And everybody who purchased a bike, because they're already sold out this year.

• 1:24:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, you can't, you can't get bikes.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  You can't get bikes in April, you know, April 15th, you can't get a bike.

• 1:24:37Rich Roll?

  How much of that is because of the supply chain overseas in Asia? And how much of that is they're just not set up to build enough bikes for, to meet the demand?

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  Well, I, you know, I think it's, it's both, right? The supply chain got shut down last year a little bit and that affected things, but they've ramped up, you know? But the bike shops are selling everything they have, everything they can get. And people, people want a bike. I mean, I just think that some people want a bike. And, and even some of the bike shops that I frequently go to, I've gone to them and said, you know, do, let us lead a community ride for all the new people who bought a bike, like, you know, that kind of, like, like, they have to be in the programming business too. See, so that, that was, right? You know what I'm saying? Like, the bike, do the bike shops consider themselves in the business of offering programming?

• 1:25:25Rich Roll?

  They don't.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  They don't.

• 1:25:26Rich Roll?

  They don't, and that's another, you know, sort of missed opportunity. I mean, we've seen the explosion of Peloton, which is a digital version of that. And there are exceptions. There are extraordinary bike shops that do a great job with that. And you see what Justin is doing with Rafa, his sponsor. Like, he's always dropping by the shop and they got coffee. And, you know, like, he's trying to create that. And also kind of rewrite the Rafa story, because it's such a, you know, sort of gentleman's, you know, super expensive brand. But I think, and I think a lot of bike shops took stabs at that earlier on, but couldn't get enough traction. But I feel like there is an opportunity, because people want to be with each other.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:26:10Rich Roll?

  And you can, for the most part, you know, safely ride with other people right now in the outdoors, and we need more of that.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  And what I, though, I just say to everybody, nature is the only safe space. Right? So whatever gets you in nature is worth, is worth the effort. And it literally is whatever gets you in nature, whatever gets you outdoors moving, is absolutely worth it.

• 1:26:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  And again, what you're describing, you know, with Justin, you know, with Rafa, you know, all of them, what's the ultimate goal of those, those activities is building community, you know? And I think, again, you know, that's where I go, are the, are the bike shops in the programming business? If they think their job is building community, it is.

• 1:26:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  You know, that's, that's really the, that's the way we have to approach this. And...

• 1:26:59Rich Roll?

  It's in their, it's in their economic self-interest, anyway, because it breeds loyalty to the brand.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  That's right. And, and, and the nature of the way people work is progression. So they'll be buying a more expensive bike next time. If, if you get them going, they...

• 1:27:14Rich Roll?

  There's no end to the amount of money that gets spent ultimately over the course of their lifetime.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:27:19Rich Roll?

  If you hook them.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. You hook them, you hook them on the experiences, you know? And I think, that is really, I mean, that's, that's what I mean. That's what I, that's what I see, you know, with people in terms of just generally how we, how we get people to stick with this.

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  That's how we, to get people to stick with this, we actually do have to have them have these new emotional experiences, right? Where they have self-discovery, they build community, you know, they create some new memories. And, and I think people are going to be hooked. And, and so again, that's where we advocates have to shift our work now.

• 1:27:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:27:54Rich Roll?

  So you're, what are you, like, 62?

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:57Rich Roll?

  61?

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Sixty-two.

• 1:27:58Rich Roll?

  I mean, you are fit. You look like, I, I mean, you're not a day over 35, it's crazy. And your Twitter, your Twitter pro, your Twitter handle is like, I am anti-aging or something like that, right?

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:11Rich Roll?

  You are aging in reverse. So what's the daily routine look like for you?

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  You know, I, um, I, I, my workout is, uh, is really compact. I, I try to do a 75-minute workout.

• 1:28:23Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  You know, that's my goal, 75 minutes. You know, in the, in the summer, I'll bike a lot more, you know, I'll get out and biking. But that, the routine is really kind of built around, I, I try to start the day with a 75-minute workout that's a mixture of cardio and some kind of strength training. And, and during COVID, um, what I, I never thought I'd work out indoors, but what I really discovered in the last really 12, 15 months is kettlebell.

• 1:28:47Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Um, and I found a really good kettlebell kind of program introduction to it here locally. And, um, and, and it just really has been a monumental success in terms of me sticking with my program and doing it at home, you know?

• 1:29:04Rich Roll?

  You don't need like some full gym.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  No, you really don't.

• 1:29:07Rich Roll?

  Just a couple of those.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you, and, and the key is like, what's the, what's the minimum thing you can, like, you always have to be planning for the minimum thing you can do, so then you have no excuse to skip it, right? Um, and that's a strategy that I started about five years ago, you know, just like, what's the minimum, like, what's the thing that I always can do?

• 1:29:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  And that's, 75 minutes wound up being that thing, right? Is that, that I can, I never have an excuse to skip a 75-minute workout.

• 1:29:30Rich Roll?

  Right. And peppered in there, all kinds of different skiing and boarding.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  Right, and then staying.

• 1:29:35Rich Roll?

  Camping and biking and all the kind of stuff that you and your family does.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, and I, and I think that has been, that's the, the other thing I kind of figure out too, is, is that you, you don't use those activities for training, you train for those activities. Like, and especially as you get older, that's really important, uh, to make that clear delineation between those two activities, you know?

• 1:29:59Rich Roll?

  Meaning what?

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Meaning that you, you can't use snowboard for training.

• 1:30:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  You have to train for snowboard.

• 1:30:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:30:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, especially as you get older.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:30:08Rich Roll?

  You know, I'm 54 now, and I've really had to confront that in a way that I've never had to before.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  That's right, and the sooner you learn that, the better. So I, so I love talking to 35-year-old dudes, you know, because you're still invincible at 35. Like, you're, you know, you still remember your best day, you know?

• 1:30:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  You know, and, um, and you kind of base everything on that. But I think, um, that is, that, that, that's, that's really what I've found, and snowboarding is a great example. This year, and this isn't, they don't snowboard with 13-year-olds. So I was, uh, this year, I actually snowboarded, but snowboarding with some 13-year-olds, and decided, you know, I was hanging with them, we were just talking, and they, and they've only been snowboarding a year, right? So I'm like, so we're doing these rollers, and I don't know what I did, I went over this one roller and came down and fell right on my chest. Right, and I'm going, "My ribs hurt."

• 1:30:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  And hurt ribs hurt, I just want you to know that, it's just like, because you use them for breathing, and it's like, man, that was rough.

• 1:31:05Rich Roll?

  You don't bounce back as quick.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  You don't bounce back as quick, so yeah, don't, don't hang out with 13-year-olds, that's dangerous for you.

• 1:31:10Rich Roll?

  All right, man, well, last thing, and then I'll let you go. I, I want to leave people with, you know, really your philosophy of outdoor space and, and, um, and, and really broadening access, uh, to it for all different types of people, particularly people who, who have lacked that kind of connection in their lives, so.

• 1:31:31Rich Roll?

  What can you kind of take us out with on that subject?

• 1:31:34Speaker 01

  You know what, I really believe that outdoors, nature and adventure, like kind of those activities, are the best place for us to actually grow and experience this thing around social emotional learning. Like, I think when we really talk about the outcomes of what we do, then when we talk about sport, I think sports as we know it has convinced us that it's this Petri dish for, you know, human development, right, and youth development. And I say, not unless you're intentional, but something about outdoors is always about personal best. It's always about situational awareness, right? It's always about, you know, they're always about skills development.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  So the best athlete won't always be the best climber, right? It's the person who masters the skills. The best skier will not be the best athlete. It'll be the person that focuses on mastering the skills, right? So they're progressive, skill-based. They create opportunities for us to have self-discovery, you know? They're personal best-oriented. Again, this idea of controlling yourself in an environment that you have no control over? That's the stuff that life is made of. And I actually think that outdoors and nature offer that opportunity to everybody who shows up. Everybody who shows up can have that experience outdoors. And for communities of color, for marginalized community,

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  what I know is that those experiences are the ones that build your humanity, your confidence, that help you understand beyond racism's impact on you. And a simple example, and you all can go test this. I believe that women who spend time outdoors have a much higher body concept than the average person. Because everything in the world wants women to hate their bodies. I think outdoors activities, hiking, biking, climbing, you know, there are these things we do. It actually reframes your relationship to your body around its ability to do work instead of the aesthetic, right? And so this balance that nature, outdoors and adventure offers to the messages, you know what I mean? Is really, really seminal.

• 1:33:46Speaker 01

  And I, and I believe that's an opportunity for everybody and for, for communities of color. It's an opportunity that we don't see in our arsenal. So that's my message to them is tell me about the humans you want your kids to be. And my answer is always going to be take them outside.

• 1:34:01Rich Roll?

  Boom. Beautifully put, my friend. We did it, Anthony.

• 1:34:07Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:34:08Rich Roll?

  How do you feel?

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  Thanks so much. I feel good. It's good to meet you.

• 1:34:12Rich Roll?

  That was good, man. That was very cool. I appreciate all the work that you're doing.

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  It's cool that you know a lot of the people that I admire.

• 1:34:16Rich Roll?

  Uh, we just, we just scratched the surface.

• 1:34:19Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:34:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's many more. So I'd love to do this with you again at some point. So that was really fantastic. I appreciate it.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:34:27Rich Roll?

  Thank you.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  And welcome.

• 1:34:29Rich Roll?

  Thanks. Peace. Thanks. Thanks for listening, everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube. Sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course always appreciated. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner and other subjects, subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page on richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo.

• 1:35:14Rich Roll?

  The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis. Portraits by Ally Rogers and Davey Greenberg. Graphic elements courtesy of Jessica Miranda. Copyrighting by Georgia Whaley. And our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis. You can find me at richroll.com or on Instagram and Twitter at Rich Roll. I appreciate the love. I love the support. I don't take your attention for granted. Thank you for listening. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.