Part Two: Insiders Swear Alien Bodies Are in the Lab. Astrophysicist Investigates UFOs, & DMT | Neil deGrasse Tyson

World-renowned astrophysicist Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson (Author of Take Me To Your Leader: Perspectives on Your First Alien Encounter) returns to the Mayim Bialik's Breakdown studio for one of his most mind-bending conversations yet, covering UFOs, aliens, consciousness, near death experiences, secret government speculation, DMT entities, Antarctica’s hidden lakes, and what humanity may discover beyond Earth. Neil reveals why he REFUSED an invitation to inspect an alleged alien body and explains what most people get wrong about extraterrestrials. He shares his biggest problems with how aliens are portrayed in Hollywood, why alien life may not need to be silicon-based, and whether stories about reverse-engineered UFO technology (including theories involving the Wright Brothers) hold any scientific weight. He also addresses the mysterious deaths and disappearances of U. S. scientists connected to nuclear research and aerospace programs, and whether any of it could realistically be tied to nonhuman intelligence, UAPs, or classified technology. The conversation goes even deeper into consciousness and altered states. We explore the controversial DMT laser protocol experiments and why so many experiencers report seeing the same “source code,” encountering entities, communicating with departed souls, or entering what feels like other dimensions. Neil explains the scientific evidence he would require before accepting out-of-body experiences or near death experiences as real phenomena existing outside the brain. He also reveals why he has never used drugs, why he does not believe consciousness survives bodily death, and breaks down his fascinating “3 varieties of truth” framework for understanding reality itself. Plus: - What Neil deGrasse Tyson hopes humanity’s first contact with aliens would actually look like - How aliens & UFOs became mainstream cultural topics - Why he wanted to become part of the alien conversation - Whether underground lakes beneath Antarctica could serve as models for icy alien oceans elsewhere in the solar system - Future of astrobiology, extraterrestrial discovery, & human understanding of consciousness This is one of the deepest and most controversial discussions Neil deGrasse Tyson has ever had on aliens, UFOs, DMT, consciousness, near death experiences, and the search for life beyond Earth! Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson’s latest book, Take Me To Your Leader: Perspectives on Your First Alien Encounter: https://neildegrassetyson.com/books/2026-05-take-me-to-your-leader/ Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:06Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to part two of our conversation with Neil deGrasse Tyson. We covered so much in our first part. Part two discusses in detail the DMT laser protocol for the experiment to determine if there is an actual hidden code to reality that DMT allows you to access. Also, has Neil ever done drugs? And if not, why? He's also going to talk about the hidden lakes of Antarctica. For content you can't get anywhere else, please visit Mayim Bialik's Breakdown on Substack. Make sure you're subscribed everywhere. And here is part two of our conversation with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  Break it down.

• 0:40Speaker 03

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• 1:10Mayim Bialik?

  Before we move on to Antarctica, like you do, you know, you mentioned the movie Contact, which for many of us was kind of our first contact, right? With this kind of conversation. And it's definitely worth revisiting, I think, for anyone who hasn't seen it. It's very old school. It's very like late 80s, early 90s.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  It was 1996, I think.

• 1:29Mayim Bialik?

  Right, but I'm saying it's got that vibe of like, you know, it's very tropical.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  And may I remind you, and alert those who have yet to see the film, you'd never see the alien.

• 1:37Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so this is what I was going to say. So, the place of visiting the stars, right? And again, we're going to ask you to take off your astrophysicist hat for a second.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  I can do that.

• 1:47Mayim Bialik?

  The place that Contact takes you is a place that Jonathan and I accidentally keep encountering by hosting this podcast. We keep talking to people who have experiences completely separate from aliens, right? We talk to a lot of people who have, you know... Medically verifiable bizarre experiences. They're brought back from death. Let's say they have a cardiac event or they have an adverse reaction to a medication and they're and they're brought back.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  You're entering the non-materialist realm.

• 2:16Mayim Bialik?

  Correct. No, no, that's why I took, I take off your hat. You may have to take your hair off.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I'm conversant, believe it or not.

• 2:22Mayim Bialik?

  So what struck me when I saw Contact was that it reminded me, not the alien part, but the notion that there is a place that we can access, whether it's in our heart, whether it's in our imagination, whether it's in our fantasy, or whether it is a transcendental plane of consciousness. There's a place that you can touch that is out of this realm. It is out of linear time. It's out of factual time, right? It is a place where you can do something even as amazing as feeling like you are witnessing the, the existence and presence of someone who died, right? That, that place is what I'm interested in because that's a thread that people keep connecting.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Could you go back to the epilogue? And read the shortest paragraph in that epilogue?

• 3:09Mayim Bialik?

  "The aliens might be intrigued to learn that some of my fellow humans who ingest the hallucinogenic drug, DMT, see aliens. And there's an associated movement to establish two-way communication and see what we might learn, but I'm not talking about DMT or aliens."

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Regardless, what I'm saying is that's a neurological experience.

• 3:26Mayim Bialik?

  Yes, totally.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  That has a certain commonality among users. I don't know, I, I didn't, I don't know what percent of that total of DMT users, but it's enough for them to get together.

• 3:36Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  And, and try to, to think about it.

• 3:39Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  In a way that, that materialist investigations would fail. And, and so, so I would share that fact with the aliens. They might be intrigued to learn this.

• 3:49Mayim Bialik?

  Mm-hmm. That we have a drug that peels back whatever this virtual reality is that apparently we're experiencing. I mean, what people who, who take DMT and who are part of this kind of community, which again is different than I think the near-death experience community, transcendental experiences, things like that, the notion being that there's a reality that we all can't see and DMT allows you to literally peel that away and what's behind it is kind of like a code that's like in some, looks like Japanese characters and little men.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  I, I have a... Second cousin niece or something, just thread that through and you get to her. She's a real estate broker and educated, college educated. Her father died, who would have been my second cousin, whatever. Okay, is that how that works? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He died and she had to go identify the body. So she goes into the morgue and the body's there.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  And it sits up and starts talking to her. Hold on, just, just hear me out.

• 4:58Mayim Bialik?

  I'm with you.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  And she describes the entire conversation and writes to me and says, because she, she knows I'm a rationalist. She said, what do I think happened? Okay. So I said, either you had an encounter with the great beyond.

• 5:20Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Which would be amazing and we need to document this and explore it. Or it happened entirely in your head. Okay, so you'd had an acoustic as well as a visual hallucination. People commonly think of hallucinations as just something you see. You can have acoustic hallucinations as well. All right. I said, next time this happens,

• 5:49Speaker 01

  here's what you do.

• 5:51Mayim Bialik?

  You're of no use to her.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Listen to me, listen to me. Well, no, no, I put this in a book called Letters from an Astrophysicist. So that if someone else reads this, they might, you, you want to test this. You want, you want, oh my gosh. And so, and in the conversation, it was, how are you? I'm fine. Uh, you know, make sure you take care of yourself, look after mom, this sort of thing. And I said, that's not the conversation you should be having. Instead, ask these questions. Okay, swapped out with whatever else you, say, where are you? Are you wearing clothes? Do you eat? If you do, where does the food come from? Who else is there?

• 6:30Mayim Bialik?

  Neil deGrasse Tyson, you're no fun!

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Listen to me! Listen to me!

• 6:36Speaker 01

  And how old are you there?

• 6:40Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Is Grandma 89? Or is Grandma 30? Okay?

• 6:44Jonathan Cohen?

  Everyone's 30.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Everybody's 30. Okay?

• 6:48Mayim Bialik?

  I'm mad at you now!

• 6:49Speaker 01

  I'm not done with you, okay? Ask those questions. Then you're getting some information from the other side. Then, get someone to write a simple phrase on a piece of paper and put it, and seal it in an envelope. Okay? Like, "Roses are red." Or, "The thunder is loud."

• 7:09Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Okay? Then,

• 7:13Speaker 01

  when he sits up and he's looking at you, open this message, face it to him and say, "Read this message."

• 7:20Mayim Bialik?

  Read this message.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  "I don't know what's on it, you read it."

• 7:22Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  And then he reads it back. And if he reads it back correctly, this is real communication with the other side!

• 7:29Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, it's my turn now.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 7:31Mayim Bialik?

  Has she ever spoken to you again?

• 7:34Speaker 01

  No, she asked me because she wanted some insight into what was going on. And I said it's either one or the other. And if it's, if it's the other side, experiment with it.

• 7:45Mayim Bialik?

  What is missing from this conversation is something that I know you have because you are a partner, you are a son, you're a father. There is a feeling state that is real. Right? What we experience is real.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Emotionally, yeah.

• 8:04Mayim Bialik?

  Emotionally. That, that is a real thing. And, first of all, I think you really, like, harshed her buzz.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  She asked me. What, she came to me. I didn't go to her. I didn't chase her down.

• 8:15Mayim Bialik?

  But I think what's compelling and what Jonathan and I do think deserves weight, and I think you would agree, is that there's an emotional experience connected to, right?

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:26Mayim Bialik?

  Being able to be in touch with something.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  To feel something very deep in that moment.

• 8:30Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:31Mayim Bialik?

  And in that moment, you don't necessarily think of facts, you don't think of evidence, you don't think of what am I collecting, you are experiencing something out of this world, and what she experienced was a communion, right, with her dead father. So it's kind of like, I apply this same logic.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  A good Catholic word you use there. Very good.

• 8:51Mayim Bialik?

  When I, when I, when I apply this conversation to...

• 8:55Speaker 01

  You got extra points.

• 8:56Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you. The Jewish girl gets extra points.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 8:59Mayim Bialik?

  When we applied this same kind of logic to, let's say, people who experience telepathy, people who say that they're communicating with nonverbal individuals on some plane of consciousness, right? The telepathy tapes took the world by storm, right? In terms of like, what is happening? For me, there is a piece here that is not easily verifiable, it's not easily replicable, it's not something you can experiment on. You're telling her to do an experiment when what she's having is a singular experience that may never happen again, that doesn't make it untrue for her. It makes it unverifiable, untestable, and unable to be replicated.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  I just say, first, I never said that, I never denied her feelings or her experience in this.

• 9:44Mayim Bialik?

  That's nice.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  At any time.

• 9:46Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Nor did I make fun of it. I just gave the blunt fact that you either communicate with the great beyond, actually, and if that's actually happening, that's a testable thing.

• 9:55Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Or...

• 9:57Mayim Bialik?

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• 11:27Speaker 01

  I'll explain how and why in a minute. Or it happened entirely in your head.

• 11:31Mayim Bialik?

  Totally.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  So let's next time try to distinguish between these two cases.

• 11:35Mayim Bialik?

  What is testable about that?

• 11:36Speaker 01

  I'm gonna tell you.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  After long thought about this, I've arrived at the fact that there are three truths. Three varieties of truths in the world. One of them is a personal truth.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  That is,

• 11:54Speaker 01

  what you feel in your bones is true.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Is Jesus your savior? Is, is Mohammed your last prophet on earth?

• 12:04Mayim Bialik?

  You were going for Moses. That's our prophet. Moses was our prophet, yes.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:10Mayim Bialik?

  Moses is my homeboy t-shirts. Don't really go.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. So, or is, is Taylor Swift your queen? Personal truths are things you hold dear. And they're, they're true to your, down to your bones. Yet to convince someone else of that truth requires an act of persuasion.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  And in the limit acts of violence, which is the origin of the religious wars of the past, where you don't think Jesus is your savior and you're not going to believe me, I'm going to kill you. Okay, that's what happens with personal truths. Then you have political truths. These are truths that become true in your head because they were repeated so often. Evolutionarily, this is a hijacking of an evolutionary thread, because if you just experience the world and something repeats, it's probably true. And you can rely on it doing that same thing the next time, if you've seen it happen multiple times. If you hijack

• 13:17Speaker 01

  that in a political environment, and I just repeat something to you. It was a crooked Hillary, or that was what you just take a phrase, pick anything that you've heard repeated, you eventually begin to think it's true.

• 13:31Mayim Bialik?

  That's propaganda, right?

• 13:32Speaker 01

  It's propaganda.

• 13:33Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  It's precisely propaganda. The third kind of truth is an objective truth. This is a truth exquisitely established by the methods and tools of science, which require an experiment to to test and somebody else's experiment to verify. And then ideally, a competitor, and you do this enough times, hey, we're all getting kind of the same answer, statistically, the same answer. We have a new emergent truth, an objective truth. Earth is round, it goes around the sun, the sun is hot, the air is 78% nitrogen, 20% oxygen, and 1% other, mostly carbon dioxide. We have a metabolism, food has an energy content.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  These are things, they're so, and by the way, they were all established by science, but they're in your life now, you just take it for granted.

• 14:26Mayim Bialik?

  Well, I think also there's such a proliferation of people challenging objective truth, whether it's the government, whether it's social media, like, I'm pretty sure the earth is round.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  What is their foundation?

• 14:36Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  For challenging the truth? Is it an objective truth? Is it a personal truth? Is it a religious truth? Is it a cultural truth? Is it a, is it a community truth?

• 14:46Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Okay, community meaning we're in this club together.

• 14:51Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  You're either with us, or you're against us. And I worry that the alien thing was becoming that. Are you a believer? Or are you not? In there, in there, the chewed up book, I comment on the, do you remember Fox released in the 90s, was it, The Alien Autopsy?

• 15:10Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Do you remember that?

• 15:12Mayim Bialik?

  Forgot about that.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Okay, it was a documentary.

• 15:14Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  From 1947, where they're operating, they're performing an autopsy on aliens recovered from the Roswell crash, okay? And the first tip that is it, you know, I'm happy to start off thinking it's real, but the subtitle was Alien Autopsy: Fact or Fiction? They're already telling you, maybe it's not real. It's for you to decide. Well, I looked at it and I saw a telephone on the wall. It's in black and white, grainy footage. It's a telephone on the wall with a coiled handset. And I worked at Bell Telephone Laboratories for, as a summer intern, and you tour the history of phones.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  The coil handset was not yet invented in 1947. It would come maybe 10 years later and not be in widespread use until the late 50s. First. Second, it's cinema verite. There's like a camera over the shoulder of the alien, following it around. That as a, and I took a film course in college, that did not come around till the late 60s. Okay? And

• 16:27Mayim Bialik?

  Look at you, Columbo.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  And they didn't have shoulder mounted cameras you could do this with in 1947. They were tripod mounted and you were not following anybody around.

• 16:37Mayim Bialik?

  It was probably an alien doing the photography.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  There you go. Okay, wait, wait. And third, they cut them open and they fold back the flesh and they're just pulling out organs.

• 16:48Mayim Bialik?

  Yep.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  And there's no connective tissue to the organs. It's like they're playing the game, remember the game Operation? You just pull, you pull the organ out, they're just putting the organs out on the side. What is that? And so I had skepticism from the beginning. Later, the producer would say it was a hoax.

• 17:06Mayim Bialik?

  It was a pseudo-documentary.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  So, Mike, I'm saddened that the best video evidence ever put forth on the existence of aliens was hoaxed.

• 17:16Mayim Bialik?

  Yep.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  I'm saddened by that. I have no problems if it is a personal truth that you experienced. But if you're the only one who experienced it in the detail that you have, you cannot require that other people believe you because it didn't happen to them. So that's really all it is.

• 17:36Mayim Bialik?

  But I think, and I think that's also, it's very generous of you and I think it makes sense. It's not that you're saying if you have a personal truth, it's not real. You're saying that in order for us to elevate it to the status of objective truth, there is a process. And if it does not live up to that process, it doesn't mean that it's not true. It means that we can't prove it.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  It means it's a personal truth.

• 17:57Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  It means, and that you cannot elevate it to become an objective truth.

• 18:01Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Because it's not true outside of the neurosynapses of your brain.

• 18:05Mayim Bialik?

  Right. Or your conscious experience.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Well, those would be neurosynaptic.

• 18:08Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, yes, okay.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying your consciousness exists outside of the neurosynapse? Are you saying that? Because if you are, I would ask, a person who goes through mini-strokes, they're kind of leaving the world while that happens. That right on down to the last few strokes, they're not, you, you, no one would say, you have a consciousness. All right? That you're not giving them that much credit, given whatever is left of their brain, until the last stroke takes them out. And now they're there on the slab with their body temperature dropping to room temperature. Uh, I, because that, because of the mini-stroke scenario, which happens in, in reality and in a thought experiment,

• 18:52Speaker 01

  I'm not given reason to think we survive our own consciousness.

• 18:55Jonathan Cohen?

  Jill Bolte Taylor?

• 18:57Mayim Bialik?

  Um, I think Jill Bolte Taylor is one of them. Um.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  You can think that, I'm just not given reason to think so.

• 19:03Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, yeah, no, I was thinking, we, we recently had on Vinny Todd Tolman, who was zipped into a body bag and watched that happen and then was brought back. In an ambulance.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  I have a comment about that as well.

• 19:17Mayim Bialik?

  And then he was in a coma and when he, you know, kind of obviously came out of this coma and he had watched the whole thing. And of course, you're relying on his recall of things that happened outside of the room that he was in. I mean, this is what also what Bruce Grayson, what Jim Tucker have spent, you know, half a century studying is people who have reports of their consciousness not being in the room that their body's in. And, and no one needs to be able to explain it, but like, what the actual fuck?

• 19:44Speaker 01

  So what I would do.

• 19:45Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  If I may.

• 19:47Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  At this table, so last time I did this, you, you, you paddle slapped me. Okay? I'm still sore.

• 19:54Mayim Bialik?

  And you liked it.

• 19:59Jonathan Cohen?

  That's why he came back so fast.

• 20:02Mayim Bialik?

  That's why he's our guest who came back the quickest.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  You got a room in the back.

• 20:05Mayim Bialik?

  Ready for his punishment.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Bam, bam. So, so here's the experiment you do.

• 20:11Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  When the person's dying and comes back to life.

• 20:14Mayim Bialik?

  You're experimenting.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:16Jonathan Cohen?

  You're always trying to put people to death.

• 20:18Mayim Bialik?

  They're busy meeting God. They're busy meeting God and you want them to be like, I'm gonna put a piece of paper up in there.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Here it is. So you put a little bridge over the table where they're dying. Okay? And once again, you write something on top. And so if they have an out of body experience looking down on them.

• 20:34Mayim Bialik?

  He didn't know he was gonna die in a Dairy Queen?

• 20:36Speaker 01

  They, no, but you have a room just set up for this.

• 20:38Jonathan Cohen?

  So you're just bringing them down through anesthetic?

• 20:41Speaker 01

  So they come back, they, they couldn't do this in advance, of course.

• 20:44Mayim Bialik?

  But 30% of cardiac patients do report this. So you've got a great.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  So you put, so you put a saying up there that only the hospital knows.

• 20:51Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  You can swap it out in case somebody cheats.

• 20:53Mayim Bialik?

  Yep.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  And then have the person with the out of body experience.

• 20:56Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Report on what that said.

• 20:58Mayim Bialik?

  I'll get on it.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Get on it. Then we can have that conversation. Until then, it's kinda inside the brain.

• 21:04Mayim Bialik?

  Hold on, God. I gotta read this message that's listed above my bed.

• 21:08Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm not gonna focus on helping you save me.

• 21:11Mayim Bialik?

  Sorry, I'm busy meeting Jesus, but Neil deGrasse Tyson wants me to read it.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  We're doing science here. Science first.

• 21:18Mayim Bialik?

  It's like, oh, sorry, Dad, who I've been missing for 60 years.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Heaven can wait.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Okay, so wait for the science.

• 21:24Mayim Bialik?

  Heaven can wait for Neil deGrasse Tyson, okay.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  So, I...

• 21:28Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  I remember there's an example, did I tell this story last time? I don't know, cuz you, it was, I was in high school. There was a thug in New York who was being chased by the cops. He had just harmed someone and that he had a rap sheet, you know, miles long. They shoot him, okay? And they, but they don't kill him. Back then, they used less lethal weaponry than they do today. He was unconscious, brought back to, brought back to consciousness. He's sitting up there in the hotel room and he describes his experience. He said, he was on his way up to heaven.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  He, his brother had died in the streets, okay? And he, he followed this light and he was on his way to heaven and his brother was there. And he said, "It's not your time yet, it's not your time." And he remembers his brother pushing him back to earth. Apparently, his brother had big hands, so he remembers the big hands pushing him back to earth. And he never made it up into heaven and then he's back and he can talk about it. This was banner headlines, especially like the Daily News and the New York Post, okay? And I was thinking about it and I said, "If you're coming in and out of consciousness and they're trying to save you on an operating table, isn't there a bright light above you?

• 22:55Speaker 01

  If you're in to go cardiac arrest, aren't there hands coming down on your chest?"

• 23:00Jonathan Cohen?

  Or paddles.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  So, back then, maybe not so much.

• 23:04Mayim Bialik?

  Someone was putting hands on him, for sure.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, again, I was a geeky kid, I'm in high school, I was thinking this through. Either he was on his way to heaven, and why would he be on his way to heaven, given this life of crime that he had led?

• 23:18Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, please. Now you're gonna get religious on me?

• 23:22Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, he said he's going to heaven after he just harmed people, cuz he's going up to the light.

• 23:28Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  How often do people ever imagine themselves going to hell? Pretty much not. I, I bet Hitler wasn't thinking he was going to hell, or imagined going to hell. He thought he was doing good, okay? So... Either he was on his way to heaven, his brother put him back, or he took this semi-conscious experience of operating table lights and cardiac resuscitation and turned it into a story that had meaning for him. And so I'm, I think it all should continue to be explored. And that's your department. What's, what the hell? Don't come to me asking what's going on in the brain.

• 24:07Jonathan Cohen?

  Okay.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Brain lady.

• 24:09Jonathan Cohen?

  I think it is an interesting experiment for the sole reason that multiple people have an, an experience that is the same, that they're, and it's an external observation.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  And we are all genetically human. I would expect some overlap between, especially when you're not really in control of anything anymore. Your body is autonomic, all right? Your body's trying to not die. Your brain is trying to save organs, you know, or the organ functions. So we're all human, we're the same species.

• 24:40Mayim Bialik?

  There's gonna be redundancy.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Some redundancy, yeah.

• 24:42Jonathan Cohen?

  And explain the DMT experiment.

• 24:44Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so this is, Danny Gohler has presented, it is a pilot study. And it's a protocol for trying to test this, like, is there some code that all people on DMT see, which is revealing like the nature of reality and the truth? So what it is, and I'm just referring to the, the paper here. So there's a 615 nanometer refractive laser, and it is mounted and it's diffracted so that it creates stripes, like horizontal, vertical stripes on the wall. And it's a red laser. And basically, people on DMT are told to observe this laser and see what they report.

• 25:28Mayim Bialik?

  And the things that people report, which is what Jonathan is referring to, is, this is how it's described, Japanese. Katakana-like characters. There are these symbols running with these different like laser diffraction lines, kind of like the Matrix. It's like there's a code behind reality. Also, there's these stable geometric structures. So like, there's an image here. It's, you know, there's a triangle and there's other things that you'd like see in a, you know, Doctor Who episode, like, kind of cool geometric shapes. And then the third thing that people report is that it's persistently visible, that once observed, you can tap into that at later times,

• 26:12Mayim Bialik?

  even with limited or minimal DMT doses. So that once you've been like shown this code, like it exists forever, and it's from this laser that is projected and diffracted onto a surface. But the idea was, is there something that this drug is peeling back, allowing us to access some level of consciousness? Which, look, people who have taken LSD have reported this. It was an entire movement when you were, you know, a young man. This is the notion.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Well, I was a young man.

• 26:39Mayim Bialik?

  Well, I mean, I'm sure you remember it. Timothy Leary, right? Like, you know, all the things, correct?

• 26:43Speaker 01

  I'm a 60s baby.

• 26:44Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 26:44Jonathan Cohen?

  But the interesting part of this is multiple people seeing something that is the same, reportedly the same, and that when you move this laser...

• 26:51Mayim Bialik?

  The same geometric structures, yeah.

• 26:52Jonathan Cohen?

  It's now changing what is being revealed.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  What would be important here is if each person taken into a separate room...

• 27:00Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  ...wrote down what they saw, and to see if they corroborate.

• 27:04Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, and I don't have that here.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Because in this book, in the "Take Me to Your Leader", I refer to a, an alien visitation to a small village town. I forgot where in Africa, but it was in Africa. An elementary school class, on recess, outdoors, all say...

• 27:28Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, this was in, yes, there's a documentary.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  All say they saw a flying saucer land and an alien walk out.

• 27:35Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Okay?

• 27:37Mayim Bialik?

  It was in South Africa, yes?

• 27:39Speaker 01

  I don't remember.

• 27:40Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  It was in Africa, I don't remember if it was in South Africa specifically.

• 27:42Mayim Bialik?

  I think it was in South Africa, yeah. It's a great documentary.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  It's fully described in the book.

• 27:45Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  I fully describe it.

• 27:46Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  And so, they, and they all draw pictures, and there's good agreement among the pictures. And, so I ask a couple of questions. I say, "Well, all the children drew these pictures..."

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Together.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  They weren't taken to separate rooms. So there's very strong correspondence, suggestive correspondence. If one person says they saw a thing and you hear that and then it just gets amplified within you. So it's not the way, the best way to take data. It's just not. But even, even had they done that. I asked the simple question. How many children's testimonies

• 28:38Speaker 01

  of a flying saucer and an alien are worth the testimony of a single teacher?

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Adult teacher. And teachers are educated and they're not.

• 28:49Mayim Bialik?

  Well, they're educated in a culture of, you know, oppression and subjugation.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  That too, okay, okay. So how many child testimonies are equal to testimony of one teacher? Then I say, how many adult teachers testifying is worth one alien? That's all. That's all I say. In response to that phenomenon. So I would be delighted to learn if taken separately, they write down the same code.

• 29:20Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, I'd have to look up the.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Then you bring in a cryptographer, not a linguist.

• 29:23Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Okay. And if they peek around the edge of the laser, that would be fun to see what else they see. And have them draw that separately.

• 29:31Mayim Bialik?

  Yep. It's interesting. So they're on an extremely heavy drug that's like, makes it very hard.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the fact, the collimation simply means that all the light is of exactly the same wavelength. All lasers by construct are exactly the same wavelength. That gives them this special intensity on, in your eye. It's not just a, a broad green. It's in, it has a particular intensity. The green, the blue, or the yellow. And it has a, a particular intensity to it.

• 29:59Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  And so you have to go back to your drawing board and say, are there certain neurons that are triggered by that frequency transmitted through the retina that others are not? And then what, what does that stimulate in the brain?

• 30:12Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  I've never done drugs because, and you will surely have something to say about this and I'd welcome it. The human brain barely works as it is.

• 30:24Mayim Bialik?

  That's true.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  I mean, take a, open up any book of, of optical illusions.

• 30:31Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Oh, is what, simple drawings? Is one line's longer than the other? I can't tell. So, simple drawings completely confound your rational understanding of an objective world around you.

• 30:44Mayim Bialik?

  Yes, they're much more interesting when you're stunned, though, I promise.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  So.

• 30:48Mayim Bialik?

  No, but I think it's a different reality.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  What is objectively true beyond my senses.

• 30:52Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  And to stir chemicals in my brain on the expectation, not for everyone, of course, but on the possibility that somehow it's better connected to objective reality, that, that, I, I'm, I have, I'm highly skeptical of that.

• 31:08Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  No, some chemicals, some chemicals like, like caffeine can, can perk you up and maybe give your senses a little more acuity, perhaps.

• 31:16Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, we have receptors, obviously, for all of these things, but.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Yes, we do.

• 31:20Mayim Bialik?

  Transcendental meditation can also do a very similar thing. It just takes a lot longer and is much harder to learn. But people who have transcendental experiences.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Travel to India.

• 31:28Jonathan Cohen?

  Have you meditated?

• 31:30Speaker 01

  I've tried, but I always fall asleep.

• 31:32Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  I just fall asleep, I can, I can, right, I'm a very, I'm a sleepy guy. I'm not sleepy, but if I need to sleep, I'll just sleep. And so I listen to meditation tapes.

• 31:41Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  And I'm just asleep.

• 31:43Jonathan Cohen?

  It's the number of podcasts you do, you're, it's exhausting.

• 31:46Mayim Bialik?

  No, but just to, to speak to that point, drugs is not the only way to get to this place. Thomas Campbell, theoretical physicist, the very first time he went to like a TM lecture in college, he had no idea what it was. And he said he was gone for 20 minutes. He was in another part of the atmosphere that he didn't even recognize himself. He came back, he fell off his chair and he was like, what just happened? And they said, it's been 20 minutes. And he said, that's impossible. So, obviously it takes a lot longer to learn it's different. But yeah, the, the fact is, the removal of that veil, which is holding us here, also protects us from a lot of other information.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  You're harking back to that scene in Contact where Jodie Foster's character says, I spent, you know.

• 32:24Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  However, many 20 minutes, whatever.

• 32:26Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  With dear old dad and no one believes her.

• 32:29Mayim Bialik?

  Neil, it's the same thing.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Because.

• 32:31Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  There's just static.

• 32:32Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  On her camera. And she just fell straight through the, the concoction. However, what they didn't pursue was.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  There was 20 minutes of static. And they just said that and nobody, nobody pursued that.

• 32:52Mayim Bialik?

  But that's actually why, why Arrival is so interesting because so many of these near-death experiences, so many of these transcendental meditation, Buddhist monks, people who are meditating like this for a living, time no longer has the function that it serves. So there's a lot of beauty in that, but yeah.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  So if you're, if you're a physicist fellow who, who I don't know.

• 33:08Mayim Bialik?

  Thomas Campbell, yeah.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. If he, if that experience gave him deeper insights into physics.

• 33:15Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Then I'd say, sign me up.

• 33:18Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah. Oh, he wrote a trilogy about it. It's his Theory of Everything, TOE.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Is it correct?

• 33:26Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, he's a theoretical physicist and a professor. So yeah, I would love for you to look up Thomas Campbell. Yeah, he's a fascinating guy.

• 33:33Jonathan Cohen?

  What did you find in Antarctica?

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Penguins. 100% of the world's free penguins are in the southern hemisphere. A few in the Galapagos wander, the equator goes right through the Galapagos.

• 33:48Mayim Bialik?

  Wandering penguins, yes, beware.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  They might check to see what the northern hemisphere feels like, but penguins in the southern hemisphere, polar bears in the northern hemisphere.

• 33:57Jonathan Cohen?

  Any underground lakes?

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, Lake Vostok is an important one. Uh, Lake Vostok, uh, it's been a few years since I've checked up on it, but last I was all in on it. This is a lake that's been sealed off.

• 34:11Jonathan Cohen?

  For like 150 million years, right?

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Seal, it's beneath ice. It hasn't seen the light of day or the, the air of, of day in, in some, on an evolutionary timescale.

• 34:23Mayim Bialik?

  It's Atlantis.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  So, so it has become the darling of people, of astrobiologists to see, is there some path that evolution took with no correspondence with the rest of what's going on on Earth? And could this serve as a model for other icy places in the solar system such as Europa? Europa is a moon of Jupiter. It's very icy, but the inside is kept liquid by stress placed upon that moon from Jupiter's tidal forces. And so.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  So we think there's a lot to learn there. Now, what could be there? It's evolutionary on the sort of millions of years timescale, but not on the billions of years timescale. So it would, no, it's just, we would see life that would have something in common when that lake formed.

• 35:17Mayim Bialik?

  But what are we talking about? For people who have no idea, like, it's tiny little things. It's humans. Like, it's woolly mammoths. Like, what are we talking about?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Microbes and other, yeah. And, and if there's anything that's still alive there, it would have to be a self-sustained ecosystem.

• 35:30Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Because you can't only eat other living things. That does not work. Okay, so a colony of cannibals at some point has to bring in fresh cat, fresh meat. They cannot just reproduce and eat themselves.

• 35:51Mayim Bialik?

  They're not reproducing their, their food source. Right.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  That is thermodynamically not possible. In the same way, what do fish eat? Other fish. You keep that going. If there were only fish in the ocean, that would not be possible.

• 36:08Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Because that's the cannibal problem.

• 36:10Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Okay? At some point.

• 36:12Mayim Bialik?

  Someone's gonna get some fiber.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Somebody's getting their energy from the sun. And plant life will do that. You know, the kelp and things. And the fish, somewhere in the fish food chain, somebody's eating those, the, the, the, the green uh, uh, food sources. But primarily, that, the base of that food chain are phytoplankton. Because they convert sunlight into their own metabolism.

• 36:46Mayim Bialik?

  So we're not gonna find some, like, crazy fish we've never seen in a lake in Antarctica.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  It had, I, so if you did, there'd be some energy source that we don't know about.

• 36:56Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, got it. Okay.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:57Mayim Bialik?

  Maybe an octopus.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  An octopus figured it out.

• 37:01Mayim Bialik?

  Um, Neil deGrasse Tyson, the book is, take, the book in its full form is Take Me to Your Leader: Perspectives on Your First Alien Encounter. Thank you so much for being here. We have such a great time with you. It was really, really awesome.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  And just love what you do and, and your career and.

• 37:16Mayim Bialik?

  We'll see you tomorrow.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  I'm not your only fan out there.

• 37:21Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you. Appreciate it.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Just keep doing, doing, doing the good work.

• 37:24Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  Do I say, "Keep doing God's work"?

• 37:26Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, wow. Yeah, don't get crazy.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  They're totally crazy.

• 37:30Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you so much.

• 37:35Mayim Bialik?

  You know, it's interesting, Jonathan, because, you know, having Neil here in person, it's such a pleasure. It's so much fun to talk to him, to listen to him. You know, I think it's, it's really special that even though, you know, his book has a definite angle, right? A definite kind of perspective on, um, you know, "Show Me The Alien." It's those like kind of vulnerable moments that sort of allow me to see deeper into the way he constructs his worldview, but also like, you know, he's, his brain works a very specific way.

• 38:07Jonathan Cohen?

  What we didn't get to, or all the moments where you and I are caught in some strange activity that we're in, I think it was like the other day, I was standing-

• 38:19Mayim Bialik?

  Why are you telling this?

• 38:21Jonathan Cohen?

  I was standing on a chair, balanced on a desk, hanging something while you were like propping underneath.

• 38:28Mayim Bialik?

  I have a thing that I'll say, and it's aliens.

• 38:31Jonathan Cohen?

  No, it's, "The aliens arrived now."

• 38:33Mayim Bialik?

  Aliens arrived right now. And whenever we're like doing something crazy, we were, we were using a level, we were trying to hang a picture, but of course, we didn't have a steps tool, cause like two Jews, and so he's like balancing on a rolling chair and his leg on a desk.

• 38:46Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm like using the desk to hold myself-

• 38:48Mayim Bialik?

  And I said, "If aliens arrived right now, they'd be like, what are these people even trying to accomplish if this is how they hang a picture?"

• 38:56Jonathan Cohen?

  Not all of us are able to just hang things with our mind, just think something and it magically appears.

• 39:02Mayim Bialik?

  No, but it's, this is a thing that I do when I think like, gosh, whenever we're doing something like, just like impossible, or like it takes three people to peel a banana, it's like, "Oh, do it this way." Like if aliens arrived, we would seem like absolutely no threat. Like, we're their pets. We would be their pets. I didn't like his explanation of why we can't have a silica-based world.

• 39:21Jonathan Cohen?

  When I'm dying, I would like you to make sure that you write a note on top of my bed, but you're gonna actually bring in a bed frame into the hospital, and there'll be a canopy. I'd like you to get a ladder and climb on top of that canopy and write a note that says, "If you're reading this, you might be dead."

• 39:49Jonathan Cohen?

  And I will come back to earth and tell you that. I just think the whole nature of testing that type of experiment, it's not reasonable. That's not a reasonable way to experiment. And while I understand the scientific method, at what point do we start to say that like, all these people having these experiences, there's gotta be something here. I don't know that a double-blind experiment is the way to create the next understanding of what's happening.

• 40:20Mayim Bialik?

  So I think that you would need that kind of experiment for the kind of truth and verification that we're talking about. That's just true. And it makes me feel like maybe these worlds just kind of have to be separate. The other complication is, you know, my suggestion, and I'm being totally serious, like if 30% of people, right, who have a cardiac event or, you know, die and are brought back, 30% of them report a near-death experience, that's a great population to tap into. But think about the practicalities of that. Someone is being wheeled into your hospital and you're like, can you sign this form? It's an IRB form. We'd like you to, you know, read this thing. Like, it doesn't happen. What you'd have to do is every single cardiac department across the world, if you go visit a cardiologist,

• 41:03Mayim Bialik?

  you sign an approval that if you are ever in a situation where you happen to, God forbid, be in this situation, please read the thing that's on the ceiling. So the practicalities of testing these things and the way that Neil talks about it, it makes me worried that we'll never be able to come together. But I really, I have to believe, and we know some of these scientists, some of them are secret. We know these scientists who are working on practical and physiologically reasonable ways to understand what is happening. I mean, he near lost his mind when he heard that I thought that consciousness might exist outside the body. I'm extremely intimidated by Neil deGrasse Tyson. But when he challenged me-

• 41:44Jonathan Cohen?

  That's why you paddle him. Put him in his place.

• 41:50Mayim Bialik?

  That's why when he challenged me on consciousness, I got a little nervous and then I was like, no, I can do this. Jonathan has trained me for this. I've spoken to Jim Tucker and Bruce Grayson and Jeffrey Long and Raymond Moody. I got all the people that have studied this and they're not saying that they know or can explain it. This is a phenomenon that is real. It is happening. And I don't care if Neil deGrasse Tyson doesn't believe it. It's real.

• 42:17Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, their work is very compelling, but you kind of need more than that. Right? Like you need-

• 42:23Mayim Bialik?

  Neil does.

• 42:24Jonathan Cohen?

  Well, this will be a little thing that we can talk about on Substack. My Alex breakdown on Substack. Because what I wanted you to do is explain Jill Bolte Taylor's experience and how she actually had parts of her brain go offline and she still had such an intense awareness of what was happening. And, you know, there are many scientists who actually are looking at the neuroanatomy and the actual conscious experience and trying to map them. But some of that language isn't necessarily on the tip of your tongue, waiting to be defended against Neil.

• 42:59Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and I think also like, you know, I had this sort of like fantasy flash of like, that's the kind of conversation I would like to see science pushing forward. People who have the largest platform, like Neil deGrasse Tyson, scientists, I don't care if he's an astrophysicist, I don't care. He has one of the largest science platforms in the world. He could have the ability to engage in ways that are respectful, that are, you know, have integrity. I would love to put him in a room with Bruce Grayson, with Jill Bolte Taylor and have them flesh it out. Let's talk about what we're talking about, you know? Like that's sort of, I think, where this can head. And while the telepathy tapes and all of that stuff is fantastic

• 43:42Mayim Bialik?

  and it's so exciting and so many people tap into that, this is the bridge, is people with these large platforms who speak science, who are rigorous, right? Who are not also closed to having conversations and won't ridicule people. Because Neil, obviously, is very playful about it, but that- That would do a great service, I think, also to communities of people who have experienced things that are unusual, that are hard to replicate. I think that would be tremendous. If he were to speak to the non-speaking community, right? If he were to tap into that and say, what is actually going on and what's not? That would be so, so helpful for both sides.

• 44:18Jonathan Cohen?

  And he was very curious. It didn't seem like a final bit of information. He, as he says, isn't the brain expert, but he's very curious about what's happening. So it sounds like he's trying to put the pieces together.

• 44:30Mayim Bialik?

  For sure, absolutely.

• 44:31Jonathan Cohen?

  If you want more pieces, check us out on Substack. MyBioX Breakdown on Substack. Join the growing Breaker community and get content you cannot get anywhere else.

• 44:39Mayim Bialik?

  And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.