Selects: How Schoolhouse Rock Rocked: Featuring Bob Nastanovich of Pavement

Schoolhouse Rock is possibly the best children's program of all time. Join Josh and Chuck in this classic episode as they tell the story of SR, featuring an interview with Pavement's Bob Nastanovich, contributor to the '90s Schoolhouse Rock tribute record. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:41Speaker 02

  Hey everybody, happy Saturday. And as promised in our Saturday Morning Cartoons episode, which by the way, I hope you woke up this morning and went downstairs and at least streamed some cartoons for nostalgia's sake. But as promised in that episode, here is our past Schoolhouse Rock ep that we recorded quite a number of years ago. And we thought it was apropos that we put it out the same week as the old Saturday Morning Cartoons ep. We really had a great time recording this episode. Schoolhouse Rock was a fundamental source of learning and entertainment for both of us growing up and for most of Gen X, I would say. So I hope you enjoy it all over again. Here we go with How Schoolhouse Rock Rocked, featuring Bob Nastanovich of Pavement.

• 2:32Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 2:53Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry. And this is Stuff You Should Know, Chip Off the Block of your favorite schoolhouse.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, uh, we just heard the theme song. If you're between the ages of... Well, were you into it?

• 3:14Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Okay, so you're what, 41?

• 3:18Josh Clark?

  I'm 40, dude.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  40?

• 3:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:20Speaker 02

  So probably younger than you even a bit.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  Let's say if you're between...

• 3:25Josh Clark?

  I was definitely toward the tail end of it, for sure.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Okay, let's say 38 to 50 years old.

• 3:32Josh Clark?

  Actually, yeah, that's not true. So let's say it was up to 85, so I would be...

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Schoolhouse Rock?

• 3:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, nine, yeah. So I would say...

• 3:40Speaker 02

  Somewhere in that range.

• 3:40Josh Clark?

  Let's say 35 to what?

• 3:42Speaker 02

  Well, 50-ish.

• 3:43Josh Clark?

  All right, that's, we agree on that.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  A little more, 55 maybe.

• 3:46Josh Clark?

  So that 15-year period, you were lucky.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, like if you just heard that theme song and

• 3:53Speaker 02

  like something inside your body happened emotionally in your brain, then that means that, that you grew up in the 70s and 80s. I think the heyday of Saturday morning cartoons, personally.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  As a fan of Schoolhouse Rock, one of my favorite, favorite, favorite things in the world.

• 4:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was pretty great.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  I still love it.

• 4:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  Like I still listen to this stuff semi-regularly.

• 4:22Josh Clark?

  Oh, do you?

• 4:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:23Josh Clark?

  It'd been a little while. When I went back to, um, to research this, I listened to or watched a bunch of them.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:29Josh Clark?

  And, um, they all just came flooding back.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the, um, the writer of this article actually interviewed, didn't he? Bob Doro?

• 4:40Josh Clark?

  It's, it sounded that way, unless he's a big fat liar in his author's note.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Well, I just remember when this article went around, like, the first thing we do when there's an article at House of the Forks is there's a,

• 4:51Speaker 02

  email that goes around to everyone where people kind of suggest, uh, kind of questions you can answer and stuff like that.

• 4:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  I don't think we ever really talked about that, did we?

• 4:59Josh Clark?

  I don't think so.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Nine years in, that's a secret. Uh, and people say, hey, you should think about this, you should do this. And I said, somebody should try and interview Bob Doro. It's like, he's 93 years old and, you know, you can still get in touch with the guy, I think.

• 5:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  And apparently this dude did, and sadly, I think all we got was like, one quote.

• 5:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, he was on his way to like, a jazz gig in London when he caught him.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  I bet you there was more in there than this. I was a little disappointed.

• 5:25Josh Clark?

  Oh, you're saying, oh, I got you.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  I wanted like, more, more select pull quotes from Mr. Doro.

• 5:31Josh Clark?

  You wanted like, I called Mr. Doro, he answered. Hello? Said Mr. Doro?

• 5:36Speaker 02

  We should have interviewed him for this.

• 5:38Josh Clark?

  I don't know why we didn't.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  I don't either.

• 5:40Josh Clark?

  Apparently, he's easy to get to.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  Uh, and there's, well, I'll get to that, never mind. Should we get in the wayback machine?

• 5:47Josh Clark?

  Yes, let's go back to the 70s, the greatest decade in the history of humanity.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 5:59Josh Clark?

  I, I'm not joking.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  I'm a fan of 60s, 70s, and 80s. It'd be tough for me to decide.

• 6:05Josh Clark?

  The 60s were a little too hippie for me.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah?

• 6:08Josh Clark?

  Loved the 70s, though. I mean, I loved the 70s. And not even as a golden age, there was a lot wrong in the 70s. Nixon was president during the 70s, okay?

• 6:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:18Josh Clark?

  Lots of stuff were wrong in the 70s. But something about that decade just hit all the boxes.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 6:27Josh Clark?

  I just love it.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  I do too. And it reminds me of my childhood, which is great, because, you know, I had a good childhood, it was fun. I have a lot of, we talked about that in the nostalgia episode. On how nostalgia is the correct path in life.

• 6:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Even though John Hodgman doesn't think so.

• 6:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, nothing to that.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  So, early 70s, there was a gentleman named David McCall and he was a, he co-owned an ad agency called McCaffrey and McCall. And as the story goes, he was on vacation with his family and he knew his son was having some trouble in math, remembering specifically multiplication tables.

• 7:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no matter how much he yelled at him every night, he couldn't get multiplication.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  But they're in the car and this kid was singing, as the story goes, Rolling Stones, Rolling Stones song, and he was like, well, you know that. Why can't you remember the other stuff? I don't think he was that gruff.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  But it did hit him. He was like, you know, my son remembers, he has no problem memorizing things, but there's something about these multiplication tables. So I wonder if there's something to sing-song.

• 7:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  And turning, learning into not only just music, because that's not a new thing. People have been doing that forever.

• 7:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  But popular sounding music.

• 7:42Josh Clark?

  Right. And like pairing them with concepts to teach, right?

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:47Josh Clark?

  To, to make kids understand difficult concepts, right? And it's, it's so weird now, especially in the post-schoolhouse rock world.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:00Josh Clark?

  That, that, yeah, of course, people do that. Like, that's a technique that you use to teach kids. But apparently, no one else is doing this at the time.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Let's make learning fun.

• 8:10Josh Clark?

  This was a, this was a pretty interesting idea and it really, it germinated in just the right guy's mind. Because this guy, McCall, was, like you said, he was a partner in this advertising firm. And they basically specialized in, in doing the same thing, but get you, getting you to buy something.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:30Josh Clark?

  He was saying, maybe we could do the same thing that we do to sell people stuff, but to basically sell education to kids, to teach kids using the same techniques that we use in advertising.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, like they would see a, a jingle for a product that would get lodged in someone's head. And they would say, you know, why can't we do that same thing? Like, it would get lodged in a kid's head. And they would have learned something instead of bought something.

• 8:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  But you could also buy stuff.

• 8:58Josh Clark?

  If you learn enough stuff, you can buy even more stuff.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  So he went to one of these, I think he was a creative director, a co-creative director named George Newell, ran it by him, he said, "Great idea, get someone on it." And he threw a cigarette at him, got out of the office, and commissioned a, one of their writers, they had jingle writers on staff, or at least working with them, and they said, "Go write something." It wasn't very good.

• 9:25Josh Clark?

  Didn't you feel bad for this person?

• 9:27Speaker 02

  I did, but you know what, it could have died there.

• 9:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Never would have had Schoolhouse Rock.

• 9:31Josh Clark?

  But this person went down in history as the contributor to Schoolhouse Rock who didn't make it.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:38Josh Clark?

  Sad.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Or the person who almost killed Schoolhouse Rock.

• 9:41Josh Clark?

  I guess so, but McCall was like, "No, this idea is too good for this."

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is really, you know, a great thing and a lesson in persistence. So, he went, Newell was a jazz piano player, and he went to his buddy, Juan Bob Doro, one of my heroes, who was, and is, a great bebop jazz pianist and composer, and said, "You can write a jingle too, why don't you try this out?" And here's the one quote, we might as well read it, from a 93-year-old Mr. Doro. "I don't know how I lucked out, apparently they tried other songwriters, but most of them wrote 'Down' to kids. When I met McCall, he said, 'Here's my idea, give it a try, but don't write 'Down' to the kids.' And when he said that, I got a chill, I have a high opinion of children." And that was sort of the key right there.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  They weren't songs like written in a remedial way because it was children.

• 10:33Josh Clark?

  Right. "Itzy Bitsy Spider," give me a break.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a classic.

• 10:39Josh Clark?

  So, um...

• 10:40Speaker 02

  But you're right.

• 10:41Josh Clark?

  But, so this idea germinates in this right guy's head, he happens to end up indirectly getting in touch with this guy who has a high opinion of children, and he happens to be a jazz composer.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:53Josh Clark?

  Things are starting to like happen. There's basically the hand of the Almighty at work here.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  That's right. So, Doro goes home, he has a daughter, gets out her textbooks, and the first thing he comes up with, to me, one of the best...

• 11:09Josh Clark?

  Man, it is far out.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  "Three is a magic number" was the very first Schoolhouse Rock song written, because the first thing they wanted to tackle was math, because of McCall's son.

• 11:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, this, this composition that he came back with, "Three is a magic number",

• 11:28Josh Clark?

  It's a, I, I, when I hear it, it's super cool. But I don't, I, I'm really surprised that everybody was like, this is, yes.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Really?

• 11:38Josh Clark?

  Figure something out from this.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I loved it.

• 11:41Josh Clark?

  It is, it's cool, but it just doesn't seem like the basis, the keystone of Schoolhouse Rock to me. I'm surprised.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Well, it's one of my favorites.

• 11:50Josh Clark?

  That's great.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Uh, because it dealt with multiplication, uh, and not only that, but, uh, like you said, got a little trippy with the symbolism.

• 11:58Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Faith, hope and charity, heart and mind and body.

• 12:01Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Uh, it was about, and I, I've wanted to do a podcast on three, the number three, because it's.

• 12:08Josh Clark?

  Very special.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  It is very special. It is.

• 12:10Josh Clark?

  We did one on zero, why not three?

• 12:12Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I forgot about that.

• 12:13Josh Clark?

  Remember?

• 12:14Speaker 02

  I think my brain melted a bit there.

• 12:16Josh Clark?

  That's a good one. It's tough. Zero's tough.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  It is tough. Um, and not at all magic, right?

• 12:22Josh Clark?

  Not really.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Um, so regardless, if you would have been working there, you would have been like, meh, and everyone else enjoyed it. You'd be like, I'm gonna go get a bagel.

• 12:34Josh Clark?

  I'm gonna go work on this processed cheese account.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Um, I did think of Mad Men quite a bit when I was, uh, researching this. It was sort of that same time period.

• 12:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  Or I guess toward, no, Mad Men didn't make it into the seventies, I don't think.

• 12:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I thought he did because wasn't he supposed to be D.B. Cooper at the end? And that was the seventies.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:55Josh Clark?

  Or early, I guess it was seventy-one.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  I think it did crack into the seventies. Not like Boogie Nights did.

• 13:02Josh Clark?

  That was all seventies. Into the eighties.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  No, that's right. It cracked into the eighties.

• 13:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  With that, uh, cheese that.

• 13:09Josh Clark?

  That song you recorded?

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Well, no, I was, well, yeah, that for sure, but I was thinking about when it, when the, the, the party, the New Year's Eve party.

• 13:17Josh Clark?

  Oh, with Roller Girl?

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Celebrating nineteen eighty with, uh, Bill Macy.

• 13:21Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  What a great movie that was.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Wonderful. Yeah, movie's almost like twenty years old.

• 13:27Josh Clark?

  I believe it. We're old, Chuck.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  I know, but those, those pop culture references are the ones that really hit home for me.

• 13:34Josh Clark?

  The, what, the ones from the seventies?

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Well, when I think of like Boogie Nights, I was like, oh, yeah, that was just like a few years ago, right? And then someone says it's celebrating its twentieth anniversary.

• 13:43Josh Clark?

  I see what you mean.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  And I'm like, what?

• 13:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Or like when I see an athlete's son or daughter.

• 13:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's weird to see the.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Is playing the same sport.

• 13:50Josh Clark?

  The rookies are now like the old coaches and managers in the sports now.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Man.

• 13:56Josh Clark?

  Bizarre.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  So everyone's impressed at McCaffrey and McCall. Then they did a pretty smart thing. They went to, McCall was on the board of the Bank Street College of Education in New York there, and he took it to them. And it was just a song at this point. He said, "What do you think is a learning tool?" They used it, played it for the students, and they were like, "This is awesome."

• 14:18Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  They're responding.

• 14:20Josh Clark?

  Again, I'm not putting-

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Except for little Josh.

• 14:23Josh Clark?

  He's just sitting there with his arms crossed. He's scowling. Never seen him so mad before.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  So the students liked it. The agency liked it. So they knew they were on to something. They got their art director, Tom Yohe, Y-O-H-E.

• 14:40Josh Clark?

  Oh, you're going with Yo? I'm going all out with Yohi.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Okay, Tom Yohi.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  And said, "Put some animation to this. Draw out some storyboards." Because that was the beauty of Schoolhouse Rock to me was, it was a combination of everything. It wasn't just the song. The songs are great, and we'll get more to the music here in a bit, but it was the combination of the visuals with the song-

• 15:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  And the fact that you were learning something in such a unique way. It was just like the perfect storm of awesomeness.

• 15:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the songs on their own would have stood up on their own.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:17Josh Clark?

  And initially, like, they planned to just release an album of cool songs like this.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:23Josh Clark?

  But it was when Yohi started sitting there, like, drawing some of this stuff out. That's, I mean, Schoolhouse Rock is not one or the other. It's the combination of those two things. They play off each other so well.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Agreed. So they took, now they have these storyboards. They take this to a guy named Radford Stone. He was their account supervisor, the VP for ABC, and they said, "There's this young upstart at ABC for their children's programming named Michael Eisner."

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Doubt if he's ever gonna go anywhere.

• 15:57Josh Clark?

  True.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  But right now, he's running the kid's shop over there. And let's bring in, because this guy knows a lot about kids programming, let's bring in Chuck Jones to the meeting.

• 16:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Shout out to our friend Jessica.

• 16:08Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Granddaughter of Mr. Jones. And sat down in a meeting, played the demo tape, showed him the storyboard. The hell turned to Chuck Jones, said, "What do you think?" And he said, "Buy it."

• 16:20Josh Clark?

  Buy it! That is how Chuck Jones talked.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  No, he didn't. And Michael Eisner bought it. And before he knew it, they were in business. We're gonna take a break.

• 16:32Josh Clark?

  I think we should.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Josh is gonna go collect himself. And we'll be right back.

• 16:56Josh Clark?

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• 17:56Speaker 04

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• 17:59Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

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• 18:18Speaker 04

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• 18:26Josh Clark?

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• 18:49Josh Clark?

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• 18:59Josh Clark?

  We've all done it, tumble down an internet rabbit hole trying to self-diagnose. And sometimes doing our own research can leave us more anxious than informed. Your feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong?

• 19:17Speaker 02

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• 19:35Josh Clark?

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• 20:09Speaker 02

  You all right?

• 20:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'm all right.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  All right, we're back.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  That was so strange.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  So Schoolhouse Rock started on ABC Saturday morning as what they call an interstitial.

• 20:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we had some of this.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it's programming between the programming that's not a commercial.

• 20:30Josh Clark?

  Right. When the creators of the program you're actually watching weren't good enough to make 22 full minutes, you round it out with interstitial programming.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. This is January 6th and 7th was the first weekend in 1973. So I was but two years old.

• 20:48Josh Clark?

  Oh, well, I was negative three.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, you were in the upper atmosphere.

• 20:53Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm. Playing my lyre.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Coalescing, waiting to be born.

• 20:56Josh Clark?

  Flapping my wings.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  And this was before, like, like you said, this is, the original thing was it was just gonna be an album called Multiplication Rock, until they realized that the visuals were important, they could put it on television. And the first four songs that first weekend were some of the greatest, aside from Three is a Magic Number, Four-Legged Zoo, Elementary, My Dear, and My Hero Zero. Great song.

• 21:22Josh Clark?

  Zero again.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:24Josh Clark?

  Not magical, but it is a cool number.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Such a funny little hero.

• 21:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Till you came along, they counted on their fingers and dippers.

• 21:30Josh Clark?

  Right. So that, when was that, Chuck? 1973?

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 21:36Josh Clark?

  And I think that first one had quite a, was, so it was up to, so there were 13 episodes then, if it went from zero to 12.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think what they settled on was almost like seasons.

• 21:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Themed seasons, so that the first season was gonna be math-related.

• 21:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So apparently Bob Doro had been off like coming up with songs, didn't realize that they wanted a song for each number, and he had started to combine several numbers in a different song, so.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  He didn't get the memo.

• 22:09Josh Clark?

  He didn't, and he finally did, and he...

• 22:13Josh Clark?

  He was trying to figure out how to like break the songs apart and he came up with one called The Four Legged Zoo. Have you heard that one?

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's it's fine.

• 22:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so so?

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Not one of my favorites, but I mean, they're all great. It's just some stand out a little more than others.

• 22:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So what's your favorite of the multiplication rock?

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Oh, well, three is a magic number.

• 22:34Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:35Josh Clark?

  And that was something else I noticed about this. There were, for each season, there were at least one standout song per season that just about everybody knows.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:47Josh Clark?

  And I would guess three is a magic number is probably that one.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, or maybe My Hero Zero. That was a big one.

• 22:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  That was a hit.

• 22:53Josh Clark?

  So much so that Bob Doro was up for a Grammy in 1974.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:01Josh Clark?

  For, I think, the whole album, right?

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the those jerks at Sesame Street won.

• 23:10Josh Clark?

  If you're gonna lose, lose the Sesame Street.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Doro is like writing and singing these initial first few songs.

• 23:17Josh Clark?

  I think he's he's saying, yeah, all of them except two, and he hired two other jazz musicians, Grady Tate and Blossom Deary.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  Great name.

• 23:25Josh Clark?

  Grady Tate sang Naughty Number Nine and Blossom Deary sang Figure Eight. But all the rest of them, the other 11, Bob Doro sang, and he wrote all of them. So, yeah. They really struck gold with that guy.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, he was he was that initial genius behind this whole thing.

• 23:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and this is another cool thing about Schoolhouse Rock that I noticed. The people involved stayed on for basically the whole run, the initial run from 73 to 85.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it seemed like a project that everyone enjoyed working on and that was highly collaborative. And it just seemed like a good experience. I don't think there's like the VH1 special, like the dark side of the Schoolhouse Rock years.

• 24:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Uh, so they move on to, I don't know which one is my favorite, Grammar Rock or History. Um, but they moved on to Grammar Rock next.

• 24:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was season two.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, seventy-three to seventy-four.

• 24:21Josh Clark?

  And, and we should say, I don't think that these were, um, like, I don't think there were breaks in the season. I get the impression that from nineteen seventy-three till nineteen eighty-five, when they had enough episodes.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:35Josh Clark?

  They were just running them like every Saturday morning during cartoons.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I certainly don't remember like breaks.

• 24:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  Like, it just seems like every week they were there.

• 24:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  Um, so seventy-three and seventy-four, you have Grammar Rock, which, um, debuted. Some people will probably say the biggest of all time, Conjunction Junction.

• 24:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's the one everybody knows.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  It's a great, great song, uh, sung, as he sang many others, including my all-time favorite, which I'll get to later.

• 25:02Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  I'm gonna.

• 25:03Josh Clark?

  But I know what it is.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  I bet you don't. Um, he was Murph, Murph Griffin's trumpet player, Jack Sheldon, who just had this voice that's just like.

• 25:13Josh Clark?

  It's the Conjunction Junction voice.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's unbelievable.

• 25:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  Very unique guy, and he kinda looked like Will Ferrell to me, like, he should play him if they did a movie about.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  They should do a movie about the whole thing, if you ask me, about Schoolhouse Rock.

• 25:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think that'd be interesting. Well, there's no controversy or conflict. It's just two hours of everybody getting along, doing great stuff.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Who wants to see that?

• 25:35Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Um, so Jack Sheldon came along, uh, sang Conjunction Junction.

• 25:41Josh Clark?

  And did you go back and listen to that, like, for this?

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I listened to a lot of these.

• 25:46Josh Clark?

  So, that is a sophisticated song.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:49Josh Clark?

  If you listen to like the, remember our poetry episode?

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:53Josh Clark?

  If you listen to like the meter and the, um, the rhyming pattern, the rhyme scheme, and the slant rhymes they use.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:01Josh Clark?

  Like, for something that's made for kids, it is not just rhyme, rhyme, rhyme, rhyme, rhyme, rhyme.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:06Josh Clark?

  Rhyme, rhyme, rhyme, you know, like, it's a sophisticated song, um, and it's pretty, pretty cool.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's, I mean, I think that's why it worked. That was the secret, is, um.

• 26:16Josh Clark?

  It, I guess it's that not, not talking down to kids.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, and like, the music was, was good.

• 26:21Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Like, if you listen to, um, I mean, those are a little sing-songy, but like. Some of them were like pop music at the time, like the Verb song.

• 26:30Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  That's one of the funkiest songs I've ever heard.

• 26:33Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  Verb, that's what's happening?

• 26:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  And especially that one, like I read, I read this great blog post by this African-American guy that was talking about how Verb like meant so much to him. Because at the time, you know, they didn't have a lot of like cartoons and stuff that, but addressed the black community at all.

• 26:50Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  And so all of a sudden, you get this cartoon, it's got this super funky music and this kid

• 26:58Speaker 02

  that looked like him.

• 26:59Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Having this great adventure in the city and it just kinda, it's a pretty, pretty neat thing, I think.

• 27:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was season two, was Grammar, right?

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  So apparently in that same season, a lady named Lynn Aaron's was a, she was a copy, copy department secretary?

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is where it reminded me of Mad Men. It's like basically took Peggy's journey.

• 27:24Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  From like secretary to superstar.

• 27:27Josh Clark?

  I've never seen Mad Men.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's good. I'm re-watching it right now.

• 27:31Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:32Josh Clark?

  It's that good?

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:33Josh Clark?

  So Lynn was, she was a secretary at the advertising agency and apparently she was playing her guitar on lunch break. Another reason the seventies were great.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 27:45Josh Clark?

  And who was it that found her? Newell?

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:50Josh Clark?

  The creative director guy?

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, like in the movie, he's just walking down the hall and hears this beautiful music and stops. He's like, what in the world's going on in there?

• 27:57Josh Clark?

  Right. And it was Lynn Aaron's. And so they took her and put her on, I guess, part-time on the project.

• 28:05Josh Clark?

  And they, I guess, eventually made her a full-time.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:10Josh Clark?

  Songwriter, which is pretty cool.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, she ended up writing.

• 28:13Josh Clark?

  Like that was her gig.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  Fifteen of the songs.

• 28:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Including some of the biggest ones. A Noun Is A Person Place Your Thing, great song. Interplanet Janet, Interjections.

• 28:21Josh Clark?

  It's a good one.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  A Victim Of Gravity about Isaac Newton.

• 28:23Josh Clark?

  Interplanet Janet sounds like Rocky Horror if you go back and listen to it.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it kinda does.

• 28:28Josh Clark?

  It bears a real resemblance to it.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  Or Rocky Horror sounded like Interplanet Janet.

• 28:32Josh Clark?

  Well, I went and looked. Rocky Horror was three years before Interplanet Janet.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  The movie or the play?

• 28:37Josh Clark?

  The movie.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  Okay, so the play was even before that?

• 28:39Josh Clark?

  Was it a play first?

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:41Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Meatloaf was even in the play.

• 28:44Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Before the movie.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Or not a play, I guess, musical.

• 28:49Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Which is a play with songs.

• 28:51Josh Clark?

  Play with songs and dancing.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  So the next one to come along was America Rock or History Rock, which kind of vies for the best to me with Grammar Rock.

• 29:05Josh Clark?

  And that one tied into the bicentennial.

• 29:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a big deal, which you don't remember, but I remember being a little kid, being five years old. And it took over the country for, you know, that entire year.

• 29:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I know, there's like a resurgence in colonial emblems and stuff like that. You know, that if you ever walk past like a very, very old person's house today, you might see like a flag holder that's a black metal eagle.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:33Josh Clark?

  Holding like some arrows maybe or something like that. That is from 1976.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Still there.

• 29:39Josh Clark?

  Like a resurgence in Betsy Ross and colonial like knickknacks and stuff.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:44Josh Clark?

  I wasn't, I was just born, but it was, there was a, it created like a high watermark that I was able to see even, you know, four, five, six years later.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  So, uh, History Rock or America Rock, um, featured some of the best songs. Mother Necessity, Shot Heard Around the World, uh, and No More Kings, which is maybe my second all time favorite.

• 30:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's the one that, um, there was an album that came out in like 95, 96 called Schoolhouse Rocks. Rocks?

• 30:17Josh Clark?

  I think so.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  Schoolhouse Rock Rocks, where they got contemporary artists to cover, uh, these songs. And, did you ever listen to that?

• 30:25Josh Clark?

  I, I listened to the Pavement one today.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Oh, man. So, I emailed Bob Nastanovich today from Pavement, because as I said in the previous episode, I tricked him into being my email friend. Um, and I said, hey dude, uh, would love to hear if you have any thoughts on No More Kings, how you guys were approached, if there are any stories, what it meant to you, what it didn't mean, whatever, let me know.

• 30:51Josh Clark?

  Crickets.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  No, no, no, he emailed back, uh, and then I said, I'll call you on my way to work. Called him on the way to work.

• 30:57Josh Clark?

  Crickets.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, got his voicemail. And then as I was coming in the studio, he called and left a voicemail saying he was in his minivan rocking out and he didn't hear the phone ring.

• 31:06Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's funny.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  Which is very funny to me. But, um, I told him I'd like to hear what he has to say, because he said he has a tale to tell about that experience.

• 31:15Josh Clark?

  Man, we're gonna have to record it after this.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, or if-

• 31:20Josh Clark?

  Maybe it can be like listener mail.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, if I can get him on tape, then we'll tag it at the end.

• 31:27Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  If not, if it ends up being an email version or something, I'll just maybe recount it in my own dumb words.

• 31:34Josh Clark?

  Or you could ask him if we could read the email and make it listener mail.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Oh, for real?

• 31:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  Like a real listener mail? Alright, it's not a bad idea. So, anyway, uh, so listen up for the end for Bob Nastanovich's story about No More Kings. Because if you listen to that CD, it's like, The Lemonheads and, uh, Ween.

• 31:53Josh Clark?

  It's a super 90s CD.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:56Josh Clark?

  Moby?

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Moby, and they're all, most of them are pretty straight ahead until you get to the Pavement song.

• 32:01Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  And it's just all Pavement, like, Malcolm's changed his words, he, there's like laser guns at the end, and it's just wonderfully Pavement.

• 32:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Like quintessentially Pavement.

• 32:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Like, leave it to them to just kind of throw it all out the window and do their own thing.

• 32:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  I liked it a lot. Um, Three Ring Government? I didn't really know that one.

• 32:23Josh Clark?

  That one was good. And apparently, they, um, so it basically talks about the different branches of the government.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:29Josh Clark?

  But puts it in the context of a three-ring circus. And it's, um, really, I mean, aside from the fact that it compares the government to a three-ring circus, it's not at all offensive, but apparently they sat on that one for years and didn't release it until like 1979 because they were worried about offending the government. Which is a strange thing to worry about.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, through today's lens.

• 32:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but even still, I mean, this is like post-Watergate. It's not like everybody was like, oh.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 33:00Josh Clark?

  You know, we couldn't possibly call the government a three-ring circus.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true. That is weird. It seems like that would have been a good time to do it.

• 33:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Uh, but the most famous song, um, from that year, uh, by far, was Sheldon's "I'm Just a Bill."

• 33:19Josh Clark?

  Is that your favorite?

• 33:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 33:21Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  Um, that was, uh, composed not by Mr. Doro, but by a man named Dave Frischberg. And, um, I mean, that one was just a mega hit.

• 33:32Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Went straight to number one on the Billboard charts.

• 33:35Josh Clark?

  It's, it's like, as far as Schoolhouse Rocks goes, that's the, that's the, um, that's the cultural icon that signifies the whole thing, I think. Close, close second would be Conjunction Junction. Maybe they're tied, I don't know. But I just feel like I, I'm, I'm just a bill as the most readily recognizable one.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's just amazing when you look back, though, like, the learning that was going on and the teaching that was happening.

• 34:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  These kids, us, we were learning how a bill becomes a law.

• 34:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  In the, in the best way possible, like, better than any, well, not any teacher, there were great teachers back then. I wouldn't say like any dumb teacher that's boring their kids, but it, it definitely struck a chord with me.

• 34:18Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  You know?

• 34:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  And that's how I remember a lot of this stuff.

• 34:21Josh Clark?

  And apparently, too, adults were also noticing Schoolhouse Rock at the time, supposedly. There were plenty of orders, this was before video cassettes.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:32Josh Clark?

  Before they were widely available, I guess, in the home. I'm trying to think of how they would have played them if they didn't have video cassettes, but anyway, apparently lobbyists and legislators would get in touch with ABC and be like, you gotta get me a copy of that, I'm a bill thing.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Give me a Betamax.

• 34:50Josh Clark?

  Because I, I wanna show it to my staff to train them on this kinda stuff.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Well, I think they asked for cassettes at least, uh, the very least, so they could play them the music.

• 34:59Josh Clark?

  I see. Maybe that's what they meant.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 35:02Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  An eight-track?

• 35:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Um, and then there was Science Rock was the year after that, that was seventy-eight and seventy-nine, which was pretty good. Interplanet Janet, Victim of Gravity.

• 35:13Josh Clark?

  I really like that one. It is so weird.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  What, Interplanet Janet?

• 35:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good one. And then the Telegraph Line song, which, um, I think that was written by, uh, Ms. Arns too, I think.

• 35:25Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  And that one was really like... I mean, it was, you literally learned about the nervous system and how the body communicates to the brain by listening to that song. And that's the one that they wanted to play for med students.

• 35:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and they did.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 35:41Josh Clark?

  Some of them.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  All right, well, let's take another break and geez, we'll, we'll cover the sad last season of Schoolhouse Rock after this.

• 36:08Josh Clark?

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• 37:11Josh Clark?

  We've all done it, tumble down an internet rabbit hole trying to self-diagnose. And sometimes doing our own research can leave us more anxious than informed. Your feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong?

• 37:29Speaker 02

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• 37:47Josh Clark?

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• 38:07Josh Clark?

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• 38:30Speaker 02

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• 38:43Josh Clark?

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• 39:14Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, Schoolhouse Rock, for the first four seasons, was the epitome of creativity. Even their process was creative.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:22Josh Clark?

  Like, the songwriters would, I guess they would say, "This season, our theme is, you know, it's gonna be science, or it's gonna be grammar, or whatever. So go forth and figure this out." And the songwriters would come up with songs, and they'd pitch them to the creative team. And so there was this process of creativity and it started with the creatives. That's the key here, right?

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:45Josh Clark?

  That's what made it just so legitimate and so wonderfully creative this whole time. It started with the creatives, right?

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they would, pretty cool, they would get them vetted by that Bank Street School of Education.

• 39:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  So they would get, make sure everything was like, you know, was right.

• 40:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and then ABC would be like, oh, let me see it. And then they'd say, oh, I guess it's fine. And then they'd start to storyboard it once they had the lyrics set in stone, right? That was the first four seasons. The fifth season, they said, die creativity, die! And they reversed the process and they said, hey, songwriters, here are your assignments now. We think kids should know more about computers, so we're gonna just screw this whole thing up, okay?

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is the part I don't get. It says the ABC program exec, Squire Rushnell, commissioned this because there was the idea that children were afraid of computers?

• 40:37Josh Clark?

  I guess.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  I don't remember anything but there being like excitement about computers. I don't remember any kids being like, I don't wanna go near that.

• 40:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  I remember kids being like, oh, that's cool, let me sit down and...

• 40:48Josh Clark?

  Usually it was the parents that were afraid of computers.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Well, I think herein lies the problem.

• 40:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  With season five.

• 40:54Josh Clark?

  So we should say season five too, if you notice, we jumped quite a bit from 1979 to 1985. Schoolhouse Rock was running all those years on Saturday mornings.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:04Josh Clark?

  They just weren't any new ones. They were the same ones that they were rerunning on.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, the classics.

• 41:08Josh Clark?

  1985, Squire Rushnell says, give me, give me four episodes or six, is it four or six? On computers.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we're gonna call the season Scooter Computer and Mr. Chips. What do you think of that?

• 41:21Josh Clark?

  So it's what, like a, a computer with a bag of chips? It's like, no, Mr. Chips is a computer. Well, what's Scooter Computer? He's just a kid. And there you have it.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  And they said, well, what about the Goodbye, Mr. Chips, that great book? And you went, ah, no one's ever read that.

• 41:35Josh Clark?

  What's a book?

• 41:38Speaker 02

  So, uh, it was a little confusing.

• 41:41Josh Clark?

  We have disdain for him.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  It's a little weird. I know, I feel bad if that's not really how it went down, but it sounds kinda like that classic story, you know?

• 41:49Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Like, an executive takes over the creative and it just goes downhill.

• 41:53Josh Clark?

  That's usually how it happens.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Um, and I do feel a little bit bad because, you know, the originals were still involved. They got Mr. Doro back on board.

• 42:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  And, uh, I think they did the best they could, but I think one of the issues is, um, all the other seasons, you know, math and science and history, it's all civics, it's all baked in, like, that stuff is classic and didn't change. When you're writing songs about, uh, data processing and basic computer language, a couple of years later, like, no, it's not relevant anymore.

• 42:23Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  You know?

• 42:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  So it's sort of, that's why no one's ever heard of it.

• 42:27Josh Clark?

  Plus, again, they, they were like, so wait, Scooter Computers the boy or the computer he's hanging out with?

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:32Josh Clark?

  And why is the computer on roller skates?

• 42:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:35Josh Clark?

  Just stuff like that, you know?

• 42:37Speaker 02

  It didn't work.

• 42:38Josh Clark?

  It was an undignified end to something really great.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 42:41Josh Clark?

  And so they pulled the plug on the whole thing in 1985. They said, hey, this Mary Lou Retton lady, we like her. She's got gumption, she's got apple pie coming out of her ears.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  Gross.

• 42:53Josh Clark?

  Um, we love her and we wanna put her on TV. So they put her interstitials on.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, ABC Fun Fit.

• 43:01Josh Clark?

  Oh, I'll bet that was the same time when Reagan made Arnold Schwarzenegger as, like, fitness czar. You remember that?

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Uh-huh.

• 43:09Josh Clark?

  Bet.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Totally remember that. The presidential, uh, fitness test, right?

• 43:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Man, I failed that so many times.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I was always sick that day. It's like, I gotta climb a rope.

• 43:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Still to this day, I've never climbed a rope in my life.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 43:23Josh Clark?

  Made it this far.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:25Josh Clark?

  Man, I'm gonna be chased by a tiger on the way home.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was gonna say, that's how you're gonna meet your demise one day. You're gonna be in like a burning building and a rope's just gonna fall from the ceiling like a cartoon.

• 43:34Josh Clark?

  Reagan.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  In the late eighties, there was a student at UConn, Go Huskies, that said, "I want to bring Schoolhouse Rock back." They started a petition.

• 43:47Josh Clark?

  I could not find this person's name for the life of me.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  I couldn't either.

• 43:50Josh Clark?

  Sorry, person.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  But ABC said, "You know what? People want this." And I guess it took them a little while to get around to it. But in 1993, they brought it back, rerunning all those classic tunes and cartoons, and added some new stuff.

• 44:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  By Bob Doro and the gang.

• 44:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they brought back the originals.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:11Josh Clark?

  And this season was called Money Rock. And they did a substantial number of new episodes, but again, written and performed by all the original people, but a good, starting 20 years later.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:26Josh Clark?

  And they had things like 750 Once a Week, which is about maintaining your budget.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:32Josh Clark?

  Tyrannosaurus Debt, which is about the national debt.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Uh-huh.

• 44:36Josh Clark?

  And plenty of others.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  I remember The Tale of Mr. Morton. That was another Lynn Aaron's offering.

• 44:40Josh Clark?

  What was that one about?

• 44:42Speaker 02

  I can't remember exactly. I didn't go back and re-watch it, but I remember...

• 44:45Josh Clark?

  He's like, lost all his money on scratch-offs or something?

• 44:48Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  But, you know, again, the reason why this was, it worked so well is because these were men and women who were used to selling products for a living, and it was just sort of a natural, a natural thing for them to do as an ad agency. It seems weird at first when you're like, an ad agency came up with Schoolhouse Rock? But it kind of makes perfect sense when you think about it.

• 45:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they, they were selling these ideas to children in ways that were comprehensible to children, that were approachable by children. And they just kind of took the kids' point of views and packaged it for them, I think is a good way to put it.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. So besides the Schoolhouse Rock Rocks CD...

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Which I still have, actually.

• 45:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that 90s thing created a bit of a resurgence of it.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:40Josh Clark?

  A resurgence in popularity, for sure.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  Boy, that Blind Melon, uh, Three is the Magic Number was great.

• 45:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah?

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:46Josh Clark?

  I didn't hear that one.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Did you like them?

• 45:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  I think Soup, their second album, is one of the great underrated records of the 90s.

• 45:54Josh Clark?

  I don't recall that one.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Man, it was good.

• 45:57Josh Clark?

  I think I only heard their first album, but they, I, they were-

• 45:59Speaker 02

  That was good, too.

• 46:00Josh Clark?

  They, I think they made like the pop charts right out of the gate and just kind of were unfairly labeled as a pop group, even though they really weren't. They were, there's a lot more to them.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  No Rain Song and the catchy video with the little girl and everything.

• 46:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, Soup was good, man. You should check that out.

• 46:15Josh Clark?

  I will.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  It's very good. Very sad. What happened to him?

• 46:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he OD'd and they didn't find him for a while, right?

• 46:21Speaker 02

  Eh, I don't remember that part, but maybe.

• 46:24Josh Clark?

  I thi- I think that no- nobody missed him for a little while or something like that.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  What a waste.

• 46:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Um, in 1993, though, there was another resurgence, I guess that was before the, the CD, uh, when they took it to the stage with Schoolhouse Rock Live.

• 46:41Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  Uh, which kinda started out as most, uh, great theater like this in a, in a sort of a basement black box theater in Chicago. And it just grew from there to eventually an Off-Broadway run.

• 46:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, not just that, it started in the basement theater of a vegetarian restaurant in Chicago. Just to add that extra little dose to it.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, why not?

• 47:03Josh Clark?

  But yeah, it made it onto Off-Broadway.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it ran for four solid years and then they had a touring version. Um, I remember wanting to see it, but, and I think I was living in New Jer- uh, New Jersey at the time. I should've gone.

• 47:16Josh Clark?

  Mm.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  And seen it. I think I had no money at the time.

• 47:18Josh Clark?

  I think it's still might, you still might be able to catch it. There's a group called The Theater Bomb, Theater Bam Chicago. Theater Bam, Chicago.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  And they're still doing shows?

• 47:28Josh Clark?

  They're still touring, as far as I know.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  I need to do my Free to Be You and Me live show. That's one of my dreams. I've talked about that before.

• 47:38Josh Clark?

  Isn't that Rosie Greer one?

• 47:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:41Josh Clark?

  Did he do the whole album or just that one song?

• 47:43Speaker 02

  Just the one. It was conceived by Marlo Thomas.

• 47:46Josh Clark?

  That's pretty great.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  But, um, yeah, that was another like, that one hits me square in the face still.

• 47:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  From childhood.

• 47:52Josh Clark?

  Right in the breadbasket.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Right in the breadbasket. Uh, in 97, they had a 25th anniversary, uh, package of VHS tapes.

• 48:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so think about this. Like, it goes off the air in 1985, uh, 1985, then all of a sudden, 93, 94, 96, 97, there's like, Schoolhouse Rock everywhere.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  It will never die.

• 48:14Josh Clark?

  No, and I think, like, this was one of the first instances, cause dude, admittedly, Generation X is extremely nostalgic as far as generations go.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:26Josh Clark?

  Very nostalgic. I would propose that Schoolhouse Rock was the thing that kicked it off.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah?

• 48:32Josh Clark?

  As far as Gen X nostalgia goes, yep.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  Well, it definitely was something that was so drilled into our consciousness. Like, it's a touchstone.

• 48:41Josh Clark?

  Right, but I mean, this resurgence of it, I think,

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:44Josh Clark?

  Is the, is the first example of just how nostalgic, uh, is a generation, Generation X is.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 48:51Josh Clark?

  That's, that's mine. You got Sharknado? I'm predicting that that will be rooted out by historians in years to come.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  You gonna dig that one out of the vault? Uh, maybe at the place of your death, like, a plaque next to that rope that you couldn't climb. It'll be a memorial.

• 49:10Josh Clark?

  I'll be like, rope, jeez.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  You already forgot?

• 49:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  Uh, in 2013, Kennedy Center had a, a sing-along for their 40th anniversary, uh, 2,000 people in attendance. Um, pretty amazing. I would have done anything to have gone to that. Um, and then it's been... Parodied and homaged over the years and everything from The Simpsons to Saturday Night Live.

• 49:33Josh Clark?

  Did you see Conspiracy Rock?

• 49:35Speaker 02

  No.

• 49:36Josh Clark?

  Conspiracy Theory, dude.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  That was a TV Fun House bit, right?

• 49:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, by Robert Smigel.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:40Josh Clark?

  It's one of the all time greats, man. He nails, nails the conspiracy theor- or nails Schoolhouse Rock.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:47Josh Clark?

  But it's all about how these major corporations like GE and Westinghouse own the media. They own like ABC, NBC, all these media outlets and how they can use it to shape opinion and squash opinions that disagree with them or their products.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:05Josh Clark?

  And choose what to report on. It is so good. Go watch it right now. It's on YouTube. But apparently there's a bit of a conspiracy theory around it as well, because it aired on the actual Saturday Night Live episode, but then when they reran it and I think released that episode on DVD, it wasn't there. They edited it out. And supposedly, it was just because Lorne Michaels didn't think it was funny. There's just no way.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:35Josh Clark?

  That that's all it was. It was so.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  I'm thinking, no.

• 50:38Josh Clark?

  It was such a smack in the face to NBC and like all the other ones.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Well, and they just had one a couple of years ago on that was an homage to I'm Just a Bill that was pretty great, too.

• 50:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah. This was better. You gotta see it, man.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have a feeling I have and I just don't know it.

• 50:58Josh Clark?

  He nailed it.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  I'll let you know. I'll text you and say, I have seen it. And you'll say, who's this? I don't have your number on my phone.

• 51:06Josh Clark?

  So, I actually ran across a little bit, as great as Schoolhouse Rock is, I actually ran across criticism of it.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  What?

• 51:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. Are you gonna, should I just leave the room?

• 51:18Josh Clark?

  Maybe.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  I'm about to get angry.

• 51:19Josh Clark?

  You might want to.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  All right.

• 51:21Josh Clark?

  So.

• 51:23Josh Clark?

  They were teaching very broad concepts to kids.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 51:28Josh Clark?

  In ways that kids could understand.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  Awesome ways.

• 51:31Josh Clark?

  And when you're, when you're coming, when you're coming at them with multiplication.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:36Josh Clark?

  Or grammar, whatever.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 51:39Josh Clark?

  But apparently, especially with the History Rocks or America Rocks season, depending on what you want to call it.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Uh-huh.

• 51:46Josh Clark?

  That's where the criticism tends to come out. So there's one called Elbow Room. Did you remember that one?

• 51:50Speaker 02

  Got to, got to get you some elbow room.

• 51:52Josh Clark?

  Right. Where it's about, there's so many white settlers that we just got to spread westward.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. I see where this is going.

• 51:59Josh Clark?

  Not a single Native American is shown in this westward, westward spread.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:03Josh Clark?

  They actually mention that it's God's will, um, manifest destiny.

• 52:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:08Josh Clark?

  So the whole thing kinda, I don't want to say it came under fire because it's not like everybody's like, oh yeah, elbow room. Forget Schoolhouse Rock.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:16Josh Clark?

  Very few people are, but there is criticism of Schoolhouse Rock in that it really kind of fed American children. This, the, the popular line on things.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:27Josh Clark?

  And it was just exactly the kind of stuff where when you grow up, you're like, wow, I was really misled.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 52:33Josh Clark?

  When this was first explained to me as a child.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:36Josh Clark?

  So.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  Well, we talk about that a lot too, about how schools, especially in like the seventies and eighties,

• 52:45Speaker 02

  whitewashed a lot of stuff.

• 52:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  And so this was part of that. I can see that. I mean, it was, and I'm not justifying it, but it was definitely of the times.

• 52:54Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  You know?

• 52:55Josh Clark?

  Which is why, you know, I think that they, that these creatives weren't like, we can't say this to kids.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:00Josh Clark?

  You know, I think that there's definitely been more of an awakening in the, in recent years, but I want to know that.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Trail of Tears song, in other words.

• 53:06Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah. And this is another name for what they were talking about, like Forced Removal was turned into, get, gotta get you some elbow room.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  So catchy though.

• 53:15Josh Clark?

  I want to know, um, Chuck, because I'm not in school and I don't have a child in school. I don't have a child at all. Well, I have a fairly good child, but.

• 53:25Josh Clark?

  Are they still misleading kids like they did when we were young? Do we just assume now that we know the deal? That they don't do that any longer? Or are they still doing it? So, any history teachers out there that are like fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth grade? Cause that's when I remember really being just overtly lied to. And then as we got a little past that, they started to be like, well, maybe the Native Americans didn't really wanna leave.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:52Josh Clark?

  And then it just got a little more legitimate. So I wanna know, teachers out there, let us know.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  I bet the answer we'll get is that we've come a long way. And it probably depends on your district.

• 54:05Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  And maybe even your teacher.

• 54:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I can see that.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  I bet there's not like a one sweeping answer for that one. But there's definitely been progress, you know?

• 54:14Josh Clark?

  I would guess. Yeah, who would let us know is Tyler Murphy.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, Murph, let us know. Well, I know what he's doing. He's doing all the right things.

• 54:21Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, he's up on the desk.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:23Josh Clark?

  Opening minds. Great stuff.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  Uh, so you ready for my favorite?

• 54:27Josh Clark?

  Yes, please.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  Uh, Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla.

• 54:31Josh Clark?

  What was that one about?

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Pronouns.

• 54:33Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 54:36Speaker 02

  "I have a hard time expressing how much joy this song brings me, still."

• 54:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah?

• 54:42Speaker 02

  I listen to it a lot.

• 54:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah?

• 54:45Speaker 02

  If I'm ever down, that's the song.

• 54:47Josh Clark?

  That's pretty great.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  It's amazing. It's, the wordplay is unbelievable. And it's another Sheldon song.

• 54:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Uh, like how, it's, it's very fast. So how he, like every, uh, I looked up to see if people did it live and stuff. And everyone always slows it down. Cause nobody can.

• 55:04Josh Clark?

  Oh, is that fast?

• 55:06Speaker 02

  Well, it's just very complex. And the whole idea of the song is, is the complexity of all these nouns that you can replace with pronouns.

• 55:14Josh Clark?

  I gotcha.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  I got a friend named Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla. And, you know, they go to the zoo and there's an aardvark and an armadillo and all these big words. He's like, I could say that, or I could say, he did this and we did that. And she said this.

• 55:28Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah. It's a word that takes the place of a noun. Like kangaroo.

• 55:34Josh Clark?

  Can we play it?

• 55:35Speaker 02

  You know what? We wouldn't because of law. They should make a, actually, one about copyright infringement.

• 55:41Josh Clark?

  Right. It was started out as a bill.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we probably can't play enough of it to do it justice, so I'd just say, go and listen to that song in full, because it's delightful.

• 55:52Josh Clark?

  All right, I'll do that.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Man, they go to the zoo, there's animals, they all pile on a bus.

• 55:57Josh Clark?

  They?

• 55:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, this girl in Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla.

• 56:01Josh Clark?

  They?

• 56:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. It takes the place of a noun.

• 56:04Josh Clark?

  Uh, you got anything else?

• 56:06Speaker 02

  No, but, uh, there, there probably will be a tag on this one, uh, with Mr. Nastanovich, or, or with me just recounting his tale.

• 56:13Josh Clark?

  Gotcha.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  Of No More Kings.

• 56:14Josh Clark?

  So, uh, if you want to know more about Schoolhouse Rock, go read this article on HowStuffWorks.com. And since I said that, it may be time for Listener Mail with Bob Nastanovich.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  All right, so, uh, now, as promised, or as hopefully promised, we have, uh, via telephone in the studio, Mr. Bob Nastanovich, who, um, is actually a member of two of my favorite bands of all time, both Pavement and, uh, Silver Jews. And, um, it's a real treat to have you here, Bob. We did a show on Schoolhouse Rock and talked kind of at length about Pavement's efforts toward that, uh, I guess, late 90s, uh, CD. And, uh, got in touch with you, and you said you had a couple of stories to tell.

• 57:02Speaker 07

  It was a, uh, we were in Memphis. We were supposed to be making a Silver Jews record. And, um, the singer of Silver Jews, David Berman, decided he did not want to make the record, and he went home. And we'd already booked a week of studio time Silver Jews had. And, um, then subsequently, we were, Steven and myself and Steve West were unceremoniously fired from Silver Jews. Um, that's beside the point. We were kind of like, at all this studio time that, um, David was supposed to pay for, sort of bail him out, Pavement sort of took that and...

• 57:43Speaker 07

  I made a record, so Stephen, Stephen thankfully had three songs and we made the Pacific Trim EP. But I guess most significantly in regards to this project, Jackie Faried, dear friend of ours, was supervising the Schoolhouse Rock.

• 58:01Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 58:03Speaker 07

  Compilation and she gave us our choice of songs and it was fairly obvious to us that No More Kings, you know, had a lot of appeal.

• 58:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:15Speaker 07

  It was always our favorite one. We were kids, Boston Tea Party theme, um, kind of. We were able to use the vocal stylings of Steve West to our advantage, I believe, for the first time in band history.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  What did he do for that song?

• 58:31Speaker 07

  And it all turned out to be, we were very pleased with it. In fact, we're very pleased with all of it, but, um, and I, I think that it's an outstanding compilation and I, I, it's one of those things in, in Pavement's time that I feel like we actually did a good job on.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Now, what, what did Steve West do for that one?

• 58:52Speaker 07

  He played drums and then, um, all the deep voice rambling in the background.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 58:59Speaker 07

  Mostly him. He's got an incredible voice, speaking voice. He's one of the people that you can hear from a hundred and fifty feet away.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:10Speaker 07

  Even with a wind. He's got a beautiful deep voice. So, um, we, uh, he's doing all like the ranting and raving. Um, it was all pretty jubilant. We had a good time. It was the only time the three of us ever recorded together as Pavement and, um, but, um, I feel like we made a good choice and we just loved that song. It was one take.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 59:37Speaker 07

  It was overdubbed. Yeah, one take on the instrumental and just, um, some vocal dubbing. Probably took eight minutes.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  Wow, and it was just the three of you?

• 59:48Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, just the three of us. We were the only ones there because we thought it was gonna be Silver Jews and that was in Silver Jews. So, Camberg and, um, Ibold were at home and, um, I don't even know if they were contacted. We made that Pacific Trim EP, that song, Give It A Day. During the same session and a couple of other songs are on the B side of that thing. But um, no, Schoolhouse Rock was uh, this kind of thing popped in mind like, well, we have anything to do and seems like I got this one song. It's like, well, we have to do this thing for Jackie. We have to do this thing for Jackie. We probably sort of planning on doing it anyways, but Jackie at the time was a BJ at MTV.

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:00:31Speaker 07

  And she later became our, um, well, she was the nanny for Courtney and Kurt for Francis Bean Cobain.

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:00:42Speaker 07

  And then she was a tour manager for Pavement. In fact, she has, she's been battling cancer for over a decade. Um, but um, one interesting artifact that she owns is the actual Cardigan, Cardigan's um, button up Cardigan sweater that Kurt Cobain wore in the famous MTV unplugged um, performance.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. Holy cow.

• 1:01:11Speaker 07

  Yeah. So, yeah, she's quite a character. Um, but it was, it was her project and um, you know, she was a good friend and, and um, we wanted to do the best we could for her and didn't really care about anything else. We didn't even realize, we didn't know whether it was a good tiny thing, like a limited edition of like 200 or whatever, but.

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Speaker 07

  Funnily enough, my wife, that was the first Pavement song she ever heard because her sister.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 1:01:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, my, her sister bought the Schoolhouse Rock thing when her sister was like 14 and when my wife went, would have been about 10 and she heard that. It's the first time she ever heard Pavement.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  That's pretty funny. So.

• 1:01:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, she likes it.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  We were talking a little bit about um, just your take and kind of just the different takes of all the artists on that compilation and a lot of them were pretty straightforward and um, I think I really like the Pavement one the most because it was uh, it was kind of the perfect mix of very straightforward at times and then just totally pavement, pavementized at times.

• 1:02:22Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's very, um, we don't, I mean, we, we straightforward, I don't think we're kind of good enough to do things straightforward like. Like I think it's like you think of like a band like Nickel Creek covering our song Spit on a Stranger, they can, and they kind of Americana did or whatever, but.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:02:40Speaker 07

  Like in order to do like straight things, you gotta be.

• 1:02:44Speaker 07

  You gotta be good or else you're gonna kind of humiliate yourself, like, for example, like. R E M doing like pylons crazy, they could do that pretty straight.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:02:53Speaker 07

  Cause they have that sound, they just, you know, but I think like I've heard a lot of cover songs where. It's like a great song and like a, somebody with a great voice, you know, usually like a female will, will sing it pretty straight and just the fact that it's a. Somebody with a gorgeous voice, you know, covering a classic, it sort of works, but.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:14Speaker 07

  Now, we're, none of us are, none of us are good enough to do that. We had, we had to devise our own take on it, you know?

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  Well, I thought it totally worked. Was the Schoolhouse Rock, um. I mean, was that something that you guys were into or was there much decision? I mean, besides the fact that it was your friend asking. Was it something that you thought was kind of cool or, uh? Did you feel like you should do it?

• 1:03:36Speaker 07

  Yeah, I thought it was a great idea. At the time, we thought it was a great idea and, and at, at that point in our lives. Um, I, I, I'm guessing it was like ninety six, ninety seven, somewhere in there.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:49Speaker 07

  Uh, we'd forgotten.

• 1:03:52Speaker 07

  You know, like that point where, you know, that, that we hadn't heard, seen or heard any of that. The only one that I could really remember off the top of my head at the time was like Conjunction Junction, you know?

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:04:03Speaker 07

  What's Your Function? But like, you know, those are some of the first songs. When we were little kids, like under ten years old that got stuck in our head.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:12Speaker 07

  So, yeah, I, I just thought it was, I mean, if anything, I. The only negative I thought it might be a little bit childish and corny. Um.

• 1:04:23Speaker 07

  But, you know, that is, it came together. Um, it just seemed like a very worthwhile project to me and, um, you know, she was pretty, um, earnest, Jackie and, and, uh, I'm happy it all worked out. I kind of, I think it's actually become like sort of a, one of the more significant things that Pavement ever did, sort of outside the realm of Pavement.

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:04:47Speaker 07

  Um, of still being Pavement, like, you know, I don't even know. I'm the kind of person in regards to that band that would find out about things last, so. Cause I lived in Louisville and I was always at the racetrack and, and, um, you know, people would say, hey, you know what, you're gonna be making a new album in like two months. I wouldn't know anything about it. Like, you know, you're going on tour, you're starting in London. I would like, you know, I just wouldn't even know. And like, so anything that rolled through the door there, like requests to do stuff, I never knew about them, you know, unless we were gonna do them, you know, so.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:20Speaker 07

  Uh, you can see where I was on the Pavement, the Pavement totem pole.

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  Well, man, I always call you Pavement's secret weapon.

• 1:05:30Speaker 07

  Uh, Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  I think there was something about your addition to the band that really just sort of mixed everything up. Uh, whether it was, you know, the percussive elements or just you coming in, uh, with your, your unique take on backing vocals.

• 1:05:47Speaker 07

  Yeah, I know. I, um, I think I presented the element of really not entirely knowing what I was doing and that was true. And the funny thing about it is like, even at this point in my life, when people who are completely unaware of Pavement, uh, mostly from this industry, the horse racing industry, like,

• 1:06:08Speaker 07

  heard I was, you know, I was in a band, even a successful band, they can't even, they just, it doesn't make any sense to them and then.

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:06:15Speaker 07

  They'll also, um, you know, they'll have to like look it up on Google or whatever to realize that, you know, we were actually like a band that made records and stuff.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:06:26Speaker 07

  And then, um, and then the funny thing is they'll always ask me to, you know, if it's muso types or something, I'm like, one thing I'm really sort of unaware of in the human race, um, I have no feel for people that like kind of collect musical gear and take music really, really seriously and like playing music really seriously and like jam and like, or just really like have this incredibly dry approach to like, like gear heads who like are really, really serious and like.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:00Speaker 07

  People ask me to jam and I don't, I mean, my idea of, I don't, I don't jam. I mean, I can't imagine jamming like, what does that even mean? Like.

• 1:07:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:07:11Speaker 07

  Um.

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  No, I'm the same way.

• 1:07:14Speaker 07

  It's always awkward. Like, it's always awkward. Like people ask me to do something and then I'll be like, oh, man, like, uh, you know, like I gotta figure out a way to get out of this, you know, cause like.

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:07:26Speaker 07

  A my skills, like they're not gonna, really not gonna believe I'm in a band like, like once I show up with like, whatever I have, two drums or whatever and start hitting them. They're gonna be like, there's no way this guy was in a band. Like this is a fake, you know, like. So very strange, very strange.

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  Well, you just gotta say, no, man, I'm the secret weapon and the secret weapon doesn't jam.

• 1:07:46Speaker 07

  Yeah, like the, like the spice and like some sort of bowl of bagu or something. I don't even know. But I was just like, um, the whole experience was

• 1:07:57Speaker 07

  pretty magical. Um, it still doesn't really make that much sense to me, you know?

• 1:08:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:02Speaker 07

  I just, uh,

• 1:08:05Speaker 07

  I really enjoyed it for sure, but in regards to that, that specific project, that's something that went like really smoothly. Like it never got to the point. I mean, it was literally like Steven, I'm sure probably worked on it that morning or something, but when they pressed record on that Flawless Rock thing, that thing was a humdinger. It was in and out the door, Doug Easy. It's like, that's good, you know?

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's probably a good approach for something like that because you don't want to overthink it and then it becomes a thing and it's stressful perhaps. So I think that approach to just get in there and like knock it out was probably the way to go. It certainly worked out in this case.

• 1:08:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, and it's a song that has no history within the context of the band. You know, it's not like something that we've been working on or something that had been sitting there, something that had been played live.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:53Speaker 07

  You know, I mean, I think that we had to, you know, pavementize it and give it a bit of an original spin because that's the only way that we can really do it. I mean, like, you know, like we were talking about with the straight thing, you know, you can't, you gotta have significant, um, not that like, you know, Steven and Steve West aren't talented. I'm not gonna like, those guys are great, but like, in fact, the fact they're able to like improvise.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:20Speaker 07

  Um, something like that's pretty cool. So, but I, I remember being really, really happy that Steve West, who'd never really been used, um, in pavement outside of just playing drums, um, that he was, that he sort of fit fantastically on that.

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:40Speaker 07

  That recording. So I sort of loved that about No More Kings. I loved hearing him in there.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  Nice. All right. Well, thanks, Bob. I appreciate your.

• 1:09:47Speaker 07

  Thank you, Chuck.

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  Telling us these stories and, um, I'm gonna think of about a hundred more reasons to have you on in the future.

• 1:09:54Speaker 07

  Yeah, anytime.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm gonna call this one sad yet happy email.

• 1:10:04Speaker 02

  Hey guys, my name is Sam. I wanted to send you an email thanking you for your show. The podcast is actually a rediscovery for me. My dad used to play it back in 2009 when we would drive up to the mountain to go skiing. I have very fond memories of laughing and nerding out with my dad and brothers after a great day on the slopes. Can't believe you guys are still going strong after eight plus years. There is a little more to my rediscovery of your show, though, that I wanted to share. It's been four and a half years since one of my brothers, who is an amazing skier, died tragically to suicide. Since I was in college at the time, I didn't have enough time to properly grieve. Recently, I've been mulling through many painful memories that I ignored in those first three years. However, your show unexpectedly brought back really happy

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  ones. It has reminded me of the fun, adventure, and learning our family enjoyed while listening to your show when we were skiing. I remember laughing hysterically with my family at your jokes, rolling my eyes when my brothers and dad would try to comment on your show to sound smart, because it was so creepy. One of your favorite episodes of ours was the one on cannibalism. Being a high schooler at the time, I also really liked the show on flirting, so I thought I could put it into practice. Needless to say, it didn't really work.

• 1:11:13Josh Clark?

  What?

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  This month, I went home for a week to visit my parents, and I went skiing with my mom and dad for the first time since my brother died. It was very painful, but also unimaginably special. When my family and I are on the mountain, I feel like I can encounter my brother as he was when he was healthy and full of life. I could picture him diving down a slope that was way too steep with the most enormous grin on his eager face. All in all, it was a great day, so I just want to say thank you for the hard work and providing interesting topics to fill my time, making me laugh, but also inadvertently helping me cherish a special time in my life.

• 1:11:50Josh Clark?

  Man, that was heavy.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  That is from Sam, and she sends hugs.

• 1:11:55Josh Clark?

  Sam, that is fantastic.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  Very nice.

• 1:11:58Josh Clark?

  Thank you very much for letting us know. We appreciate that. And our best to your whole family.

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:12:04Josh Clark?

  If you want to get in touch with us like Sam did and just lay one on us, we appreciate it. Lay it on us. Send us an email to [email protected].

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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• 1:13:37Josh Clark?

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• 1:14:10Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.