What Makes Some Seltzers Sparkle? (Reheat)

How to judge seltzers, plus the science of carbonation... Over the past decade, seltzer has exploded. Sales have doubled, and companies like Coke and Pepsi are buying up brands and creating their own sparkling waters. So in a crowded field, with a drink that doesn't have much flavor to begin with, how do you tell which one is best?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

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• 0:44Dan Pashman?

  From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 0:59Dan Pashman?

  Hey, everyone. It's Dan here with another Sporkful reheat for you. Look, the weather's warming up, and I am certainly like reaching for a few more cold, bubbly seltzers. I got seltzer on my brain. And pretty much every time I open a can of seltzer, I think about this episode I'm about to share with you because I learned so much about the science of carbonation that has stuck with me from my buddy Dan Souza, who has like a home carbonation rig, which you'll hear about. He's pretty hardcore. We also have a lot of fun chatting with the hosts of the podcast Seltzer Death Match. That show is no longer publishing new episodes, but their back catalog is available, and it was great conversation. And Dan Souza of America's Test Kitchen, he has a new podcast called In the Test Kitchen. You can check it out wherever you like to listen or watch the video version on YouTube or Spotify. Definitely check out anything that involves Dan Souza.

• 1:43Dan Pashman?

  And if you've got an episode of the Sporkful you want us to reheat, let me know. What's on your mind? Send me an email to [email protected]. Tell me your name, location, what episode you want to hear, and why. Thanks so much. Crack open a can of seltzer and enjoy. So Rachel and Travis, I'll have you know that in the several hours leading up to our recording, I drank La Croix, Spindrift, Polar, Vintage, and Topo Chico.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Was that on purpose? Were you like doing a taste test or is that just your lifestyle?

• 2:15Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I mean, you know, journalism. I did it for journalism. Okay, you guys. I can't say that it was the most hardcore. I didn't control for all the variables.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  And how much are you burping right now?

• 2:25Dan Pashman?

  I know, I was gonna tell you that-

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Are you gonna be okay?

• 2:27Dan Pashman?

  I may have to interrupt our taping several times to pee.

• 2:41Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. As if it's been shaken up before being opened, seltzer has exploded. Sparkling water sales have more than doubled in the past 10 years. That's why the blog GrubStreet referred to the 2010s as "The Seltzer Decade." Now, look, we still drink way more soda overall, but soda sales have basically stayed flat, as if the soda was shaken up a long, long time ago. That's why companies like Coke and Pepsi, they're getting into the seltzer game, all right? Coke bought Topo Chico, the Mexican sparkling water company with a cult following in Texas, for $220

• 3:22Dan Pashman?

  million. Pepsi bought SodaStream for $3.2 billion. What's going on? Well, people want less sugar, fewer carbs, less artificial stuff, but they still want something bubbly and refreshing. It is seltzers moment. Later in the show, we'll do a deep dive on the science of carbonation with our friend Dan Souza from Cooks Illustrated. But first, there are all these sparkling waters out there, right? And let's face it, in a blind taste test, could you even tell the difference? I want to know, how do you judge seltzers when they all seem so similar? Well, Rachel Ward and Travis Larchuk, they're audio producers by day. They've worked for places like NPR and Gimlet. But by night, they host the podcast Seltzer Deathmatch. They call their listeners Carbonation.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Hello Carbonation. This is Seltzer Deathmatch, the quest to find the best seltzer in America. We're your judges. I'm seltzer skeptic Travis Larchuk.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  And I'm seltzer supporter Rachel Ward.

• 4:21Dan Pashman?

  In each episode, they invite a guest judge, pit two seltzers against each other, and pick a winner, analyzing every detail.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  So it's definitely got that like stinging blanket bubble effect of like a very, very fine bubble, but then in the glass, it's.

• 4:35Dan Pashman?

  Travis didn't even really enjoy seltzer until they started the podcast, but as Rachel told me, her history with the bubbly stuff runs deep.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  So when I was a kid, we weren't allowed to have anything fun. If we wanted juice, it had to be cut with water or seltzer. And so seltzer was preferential, obviously.

• 4:56Dan Pashman?

  You, you say obviously, but like, I mean, I never liked seltzer until relatively recently. Like I, when I was a kid, I hated that flavor, the CO2 flavor, or whatever that flavor is.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, but Dan, think about it. Seltzer plus grape juice, that almost is soda.

• 5:12Dan Pashman?

  I guess if you're not allowed to have soda, right?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  The thing that I called it when I was very little was, I called it "ha" because when you drink it, you like take a sip and you go, "Ah."

• 5:28Dan Pashman?

  Are you aware that Coke is launching its own flavored seltzer line and it's going to be called "Aha"?

• 5:35Speaker 01

  I hope Aha sues them.

• 5:38Dan Pashman?

  Aha, the Swedish 80s pop band?

• 5:42Dan Pashman?

  Why don't you sue them?

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, Rachel, you've got prior art on "Ha",

• 5:48Speaker 02

  our season finale. It's on tape.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  That's true. That is true.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  They probably listened to it and stole the idea from you.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Yes, that is almost certainly what happened.

• 6:01Dan Pashman?

  First, a correction. Aha, the band is Norwegian, not Swedish. I apologize to both countries. Now, before we go too far, I ask Rachel and Travis to define our terms here. There's seltzer, sparkling water, mineral water, club soda. What's the difference? They explain that sparkling water is the big umbrella term. Any water with bubbles, with or without flavor, is sparkling water. Mineral water comes from a natural spring. The bubbles may come from the spring, they can be added later, or it may be some of both. Club soda has some type of salt added, which is why it's favored by bartenders. That savory note brings out other flavors. Seltzer is just water with CO2 added for carbonation.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  But like, if, if these differences are keeping you up at night, I think there's a larger concern to attend to, so.

• 6:53Dan Pashman?

  Well, now I'm really curious. Hang on one second. I'm gonna go get the seltzers that I have upstairs and I wanna look at the labels.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:58Dan Pashman?

  You guys stay here, I'll bring it right back.

• 7:03Dan Pashman?

  As I said, I loaded up on seltzer at the store in preparation for this interview. But I couldn't find Topo Chico, the one with the cult following in Texas. So I enlisted the help of my friend and neighbor, Rohit. He's such a hardcore Texan that when his first child was born, he had his parents send dirt from Texas up here to New York so his son's first steps would be on Texas soil. Rohit came through. I got back to my basement recording setup with the Topo Chico and everything else I had.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Wow, Dan just walked into the frame with his arms completely full.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Dan, first, do you think your family's worried about you that you just went upstairs, grabbed an armful of seltzer and then came back into the basement?

• 7:44Dan Pashman?

  Back into my cave.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  What's he building in there?

• 7:49Dan Pashman?

  Honestly, Rachel, they've seen a lot weirder, trust me. So Topo Chico mineral water carbonated. Ingredients mineral water carbon dioxide. So they're adding the bubbles to Topo Chico.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 8:02Dan Pashman?

  Quick correction. Topo Chico does have natural carbonation, but then more carbonation is added in processing to make up for the bubbles lost during the purification process. I have lime polar here.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  That's the daddy on the East Coast.

• 8:15Dan Pashman?

  Contains carbonated water, natural flavors. It says zero grams of sugar. And then I get the Spindrift. That's just.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  That's soda.

• 8:23Dan Pashman?

  No, no, it's unsweetened, but it is made with real juice.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  Disqualified.

• 8:27Dan Pashman?

  In terms of the spectrum between Coca-Cola and plain seltzer, it's a lot closer to plain seltzer.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  I think Spindrift is great. I just don't think it's a seltzer. I don't think you can add juice, which is sugar, to something and then have it be in the same category as like the thing that you drink, because it doesn't have anything in it, you know?

• 8:47Dan Pashman?

  But there's no added sugar in Spindrift. It's just juice.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  They added the juice, Dan.

• 8:51Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Juice is sugar, Dan.

• 8:54Dan Pashman?

  After our conversation, I took a closer look at Spindrift's can and realized they don't actually call themselves seltzer. They call themselves sparkling water with real squeezed fruit. Trader Joe's sells essentially the same thing, and they call it seltzer with a splash. So the line there is murky. But generally speaking, straight up seltzer does not contain any calories. It's either plain or made with what's labeled as natural flavors, extracts and things that add flavor without sugar or calories. So we have defined our terms. Now that we know what we're talking about, let's get to brass tacks. If seltzers have almost nothing in them besides water and CO2, what makes some better than others? I asked Rachel and Travis,

• 9:37Dan Pashman?

  what are the key metrics for evaluating a seltzer?

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Oh, we've built a rubric.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, so our rubric is based on three factors, which are aesthetics, bub, and flavor.

• 9:49Dan Pashman?

  Aesthetics, meaning the label on the can, the logo?

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  The whole, the whole non-drinking, you know, the sound that it makes when you open it up.

• 9:58Dan Pashman?

  Let's talk audio aesthetics. Which makes the best sound on average? A can opening, a glass bottle opening with a pop top, or a plastic bottle opening with a twist top?

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, what a great question. Here's my political answer, which is I think that opening a can is always going to give you a great sound. It's 100% reliable.

• 10:17Dan Pashman?

  You mean this?

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Yes, oh, so good.

• 10:22Dan Pashman?

  It's such a good sound.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  Now, your bottles, those are a riskier proposition. I think it could be great, it could be terrible. You know, we've opened some bottles and it hasn't made any sound and it's a real bummer.

• 10:33Dan Pashman?

  I, I personally would vote for the can because to me, it's not just about the fizz, it's about the sound of the actual opening of the vessel.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  No, I, I totally agree with you, but the sound of the fizz escaping when you unscrew the top of a, like a plastic bottle, like if it's really, if it's carbonated well and like that sound, did I make it well? Yeah. Um, that's really good, too. I mean, there's, there's just, you know, the world of seltzer ASMR is, there's a lot out there.

• 11:04Dan Pashman?

  And so there's aesthetics, which is audio and visual aesthetics of the presentation of the seltzer. Um, then what are the other major metrics for evaluating a seltzer?

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Uh, bub, which is what it sounds like.

• 11:17Dan Pashman?

  Carbonation.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Bub is about a visual experience and a taste experience. So it's like, how do the bubbles look in the glass? Are they big? Are they small? Are they erratic? Do they climb? Do they cluster? Like, what's going on with the bubble? And then when you drink it, what is the physical experience of drinking it? So like, does it carpet your tongue with fine bubbles? Does it climb up the sides of your tongue because it's got flavor in it? And so you notice it on the parts of your tongue that have taste receptors that are related to that flavor? Does it like sting your cheeks a little bit? Like, do you get a little bit of like bubble up in your like sinus cavity because it's so strong? Like that, those are all sort of the, the elements of bub. I think bub is my favorite category and it's what often makes the, the decision for me

• 12:03Speaker 01

  because that's the unique selling proposition of seltzer. It's, it doesn't have any flavor going for it. What it has is this physical sensation that most drinks don't have, or that we don't notice if they're like highly sweetened. So I think that paying attention to how seltzer feels actually gives you a new. Vocabulary or a new, a new catalog of sensations that you can, you can talk about when you're eating or drinking something.

• 12:33Dan Pashman?

  I like this idea that part of seltzer's appeal is that it forces you to notice small details that get covered up in drinks with stronger flavors. But let's face it, sometimes you just gulp it down and you don't notice much of anything that distinguishes it. And yet, despite the fact that seltzers don't taste that different from each other, some brands become huge hits and others don't. And in the mid 2010s, no seltzer brand was exploding more than La Croix. It had a hardcore following that inspired multiple music videos.

• 13:02Speaker 03

  I'll be your La Croix boy. Crack me open, won't drink me down.

• 13:11Speaker 04

  L A C R O I X.

• 13:15Speaker 05

  Citrus in your mouth, quenching your thirst, reaching all your taste buds, dispersed.

• 13:23Speaker 06

  Africa, tangerine, don't ever stop, mango, cran, raspberry, best you ever had.

• 13:30Dan Pashman?

  La Croix was started in 1981 by a beer company in La Crosse, Wisconsin. Took its name from the St. Croix River. It was a popular drink in the Midwest. Then it got a brand makeover in the early 2000s after being acquired by National Beverage Company of Fort Lauderdale. In 2014, it became the it drink in Hollywood and Brooklyn. From 2015 to 2016, sales of La Croix jumped 73%. So it probably wasn't all just hipster appeal. So what was La Croix's secret? I mean, it wasn't the taste, right? I mean, at the same time that it was blowing up, there was this running joke on Twitter to the effect of drinking a La Croix is like drinking carbonated water and hearing someone shout a flavor from the other room. So what made La Croix stand out?

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Their nostalgia factor has been a really powerful engine for them. Like, I think a lot of people whose moms wore leg warmers in the eighties and like had the big shoulder pads would drink La Croix or Tab. And like, you know, you're growing up in the Midwest, so it's like a regional thing and it's got this like very like LA gear aesthetics. And then when you become an adult and you realize you just can't mainline Coke. Coca-Cola anymore.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  You have to. You have to make the switch.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  I think another part of it is, you know, in the case of La Croix, there was this sort of weird authenticity, like, like an ironic sort of situation where this can is so ugly, like it's, it's ugly, it's garish, but it also stands out. And when you're walking down the street or when you're on Instagram, people immediately know that that's what you're drinking because it's just so vivid.

• 15:21Dan Pashman?

  But then, just a few years later, La Croix took a nosedive. The CEO was sued for sexual harassment. That suit was settled out of court. A different lawsuit alleged that the drink contained dangerous chemicals. That suit was dismissed, but the drink's reputation took a big hit. Also, no fad lasts forever and a lot of competitors moved into the space. In 2019, the stock price of National Beverage Company, which owns La Croix, sank 24%. Now, it seems Spindrift is the new darling. Their sales went up 127% in 2019. I kind of feel like in the Instagram age, it's like there can be only one hot brand in a category at any time. But being a hit on social media or having the coolest bottle or can, none of that matters in a blind taste test,

• 16:06Dan Pashman?

  which is the method Seltzer Death Match used to crown a winner in their season one.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  When we find out what Seltzer B is, we'll know who the winner of Seltzer Death Match is.

• 16:14Speaker 07

  That's true.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  What is Seltzer B?

• 16:17Speaker 07

  Seltzer B is vintage.

• 16:25Dan Pashman?

  In season one of Seltzer Death Match, the winning seltzer was vintage.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  That was a controversial outcome.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  That was an upset.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  So it was going up against Saratoga, which presents itself in a completely opposite way. It comes in a blue glass bottle with a very like upscale looking logo. Like it's almost trying to look like, like wine, maybe. You know, we had people vote and that was the one that won the vote. And it was the one that we both thought that we were drinking when we did the blind taste test. And then it turned out that the one that we liked when we stripped away everything else was the vintage.

• 17:06Dan Pashman?

  So without its fancy cobalt blue glass bottle, Saratoga fell apart. Vintage prevailed.

• 17:14Dan Pashman?

  Before I said goodbye to Travis and Rachel, there was one more thing to do. Are you ready for the lightning round?

• 17:19Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Oh, fancy.

• 17:21Dan Pashman?

  What is the best overall flavor of flavored seltzer? Forget brands. If you're gonna, but if you have to pick a flavor. Okay.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Black cherry.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  The elusive strawberry. Don't see it very often.

• 17:33Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Buh.

• 17:35Dan Pashman?

  Is sparkling water actually water?

• 17:37Speaker 01

  What?

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  It's water.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Is this a trick?

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Well, water is just H2O, man.

• 17:46Dan Pashman?

  Well, but if you add CO2 to that H2O, why does it then no longer become water?

• 17:52Speaker 02

  You'll need to ask a chemist about that. All I would say is that if I.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Or a philosopher.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  If I asked for a water and someone brought me a seltzer, I would be like, oh, close enough, I guess.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:05Dan Pashman?

  All right, last question of the lightning round. What's the next trend in seltzer? Next big thing?

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have a few pitches here. One would be, uh, for people who have easily upset stomachs, a decarbonated seltzer. So they take a seltzer and then they remove the bubbles from it. I think that a lot of people would like that product. Another one that I would be curious about is a savory seltzer. You know, something along the lines of, you know, like a, like a rosemary or, or thyme situation.

• 18:40Dan Pashman?

  I would love that, though.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  I'd like to try, yeah.

• 18:41Dan Pashman?

  No, I, I love those flavors. I think that's a great idea.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Maybe a spicy seltzer?

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:46Dan Pashman?

  Spicy, yes. Basically, what you're saying, Travis, is some of the same, um, trendy flavors we're seeing in cocktails.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 18:54Dan Pashman?

  Why, why not bring those?

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Cardamom, cloves, star anise.

• 18:56Dan Pashman?

  Yes, yes.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Give me that anise.

• 18:58Dan Pashman?

  Well, you guys, um, I really have to pee now, so.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:04Dan Pashman?

  So I gotta go. This has been a lovely conversation.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you for talking to us. It was a real dream.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  CO2 you later.

• 19:27Speaker 08

  I'm parched.

• 19:32Speaker 08

  Open the fridge and grab a can or two. Come snuggle, babe, and bring that water juice.

• 19:42Speaker 08

  So thirsty. I'll be the pride boy.

• 19:49Dan Pashman?

  That's Rachel Ward and Travis Larchuk. Their podcast is called Seltzer Death Match. It's a lot of fun. Check it out. And if you're looking for some more seltzer recommendations, Rachel's personal favorite is Mountain Valley Spring. Travis, he's a big fan of Black Cherry Schweppes. As Rachel said, because seltzers don't have a ton of flavor, a huge part of the experience is the carbonation, right? But I still want to know, what exactly is carbonation? What makes the carbonation in different seltzers different? And how can you get the best results from a home carbonation device? Coming up, we get answers. We'll nerd out on the science of carbonation with our friend Dan Souza from America's Test Kitchen and Cooks Illustrated. Stick around.

• 20:44Speaker 09

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• 22:19Dan Pashman?

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• 23:04Dan Pashman?

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• 23:47Dan Pashman?

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• 24:07Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to another Sporkful reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. Hey, check out my Instagram when you get a chance. I share what I'm up to, what I'm eating, all of my hot takes that don't always make the cut here on the Sporkful. Although I don't know why anybody would want to cut out my rants about the best way to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, but the point is that that stuff is on my Instagram and we have a lot of fun there. Also, sometimes I'm like debating, what should we do for this episode? And I'll put up a poll. It gives you a chance to actually have input into the show. So you can do it right now while you're listening. Follow me on Instagram at the Sporkful. Again, that's at the Sporkful. Thanks.

• 24:42Dan Pashman?

  Now, back to seltzer. I wanted to really nerd out on carbonation, so I called up my friend Dan Souza, editor in chief of Cooks Illustrated. He does a video series about the science of cooking called What's Eating Dan? And he even did one specifically about carbonation. We've fallen down a bit of a rabbit hole here on the Sporkful. And, and when I fall down a scientific rabbit hole, you're always one of the first people that I think I need to talk to.

• 25:06Speaker 10

  That's great. I'm happy to pull you out of the rabbit hole or send you further down.

• 25:10Dan Pashman?

  Or send us deeper, exactly.

• 25:11Speaker 10

  Depending on what you're looking for.

• 25:14Dan Pashman?

  Dan, knowing you as I do, I suspect that beyond SodaStream and whatever commercially available carbonation devices there are for home use, you may have some Rube Goldberg type situation in your house.

• 25:27Speaker 10

  Yeah, I wish, I wish I could call it truly Rube Goldberg, but I do, I do have kind of a carbonation rig set up at the house. I basically have a 20 pound CO2 tank and this is like maybe the size of a, of an industrial fire extinguisher, like a really big fire extinguisher.

• 25:44Dan Pashman?

  Okay, got it.

• 25:45Speaker 10

  It can sit like on the ground. It's, you know, it's like a toddler, basically, in your house.

• 25:51Speaker 10

  And then there's a hose that runs to this pretty cool connector that you can attach to soda bottle tops. You fill it up with whatever liquid you want. You squeeze out any air at the top and then you lock it in place. And then as you pump CO2 into it, you shake it and you can carbonate basically anything.

• 26:08Dan Pashman?

  Dan got this gear at a homebrew store. He says this ability to carbonate anything is what sets his rig apart. The typical home carbonation systems?

• 26:16Speaker 10

  They are definitely just for carbonating water, which I think they warn you pretty strongly about that. So if you are trying to do like a cocktail or something like fruit juice that has a lot of foaming potential, it can back up into the system and really screw it up.

• 26:32Dan Pashman?

  But Dan's rig?

• 26:33Speaker 10

  Like, let's say you like an Americano, right? Which is Campari and sweet vermouth and seltzer. You could just combine water, sweet vermouth and Campari. So it's not bubbly at all. And then force carbonate the whole thing. So you actually get something that's more carbonated because you're not diluting that carbonation with still booze.

• 26:53Dan Pashman?

  Is that actually better though? Because I feel like this is one of the situations where I at least I'm so accustomed to the ratios that you would get in any bar or any home cocktail where like the only carbonation comes from the thing that was pre-carbonated. If you carbonated the whole thing, it might be kind of weird for me. I don't know if it would be what I wanted.

• 27:10Speaker 10

  And it may not be. So I think, I'm not sure I got this, this point across, but like I'm a, I really like carbonation. I like, you know, if, if, if it doesn't like hurt and it's not really, really carbonated, I feel like it's just like disappointing.

• 27:32Dan Pashman?

  What is carbonation?

• 27:35Speaker 10

  Yeah. So it's actually pretty simple. It's basically you saturated water with carbon dioxide. That's really all it takes to, to meet the requirement of a bubbly beverage.

• 27:45Dan Pashman?

  So Dan, when you buy seltzer in the store, if it's in a clear container, you're holding it in your hand, it looks like water. It's only when you crack it open and break that seal that this magical thing happens. All of these bubbles appear out of nowhere. What's happening there?

• 28:04Speaker 10

  So basically, you've destroyed equilibrium. Inside that bottle, you have that little headspace at the top, and then you have that liquid. And it's all the same pressure throughout. And because it's all at the same pressure and it's in equilibrium, there's just no reason for that gas to come out of the water, right? So it's just stuck in there. So it's only when you change the pressure at the top and actually cause an imbalance. So you've got the water that's super saturated, and then the atmosphere has nowhere near as much CO2 in it as that little headspace in the bottle did before.

• 28:35Dan Pashman?

  The atmosphere inside the bottle is full of CO2. It's highly pressurized. The atmosphere outside the bottle isn't. So when you open the bottle, the CO2 rushes toward the area that's less pressurized.

• 28:46Speaker 10

  Nature loves to get back to equilibrium, so it will do just that. The gas will come out of solution, leave the bottle until it reaches a new equilibrium, which is flat.

• 28:56Dan Pashman?

  But even when seltzer goes flat, it still has a flavor, right? You know, like if you leave a glass of it on the counter overnight, and then you take a sip the next day, you can still tell it's seltzer, even without the bubbles. That's because carbonation produces a chemical reaction in your mouth that creates carbonic acid, which has a sour taste, the taste of seltzer. But let's face it, the part of the seltzer that has the biggest impact on the drinking experience is the bubbles themselves, that physical sensation in your mouth. Dan says our brain's response to carbonation is actually a pain response. It's like with spicy foods. A receptor in the brain registers irritation and pain, but it's a sensation we've grown to love. How do those bubbles affect the way a drink tastes?

• 29:38Speaker 10

  When those bubbles rise, they rise to the surface, and some of them, you know, pop when they get up there. And that popping action, if you have plain seltzer water, it's not going to release a whole lot of aroma. But if you've got something with some flavoring in it, or a soda or something like that, it kind of pops and releases that aroma into the air. So you're smelling that through your nose as you're going in for your sip. It smells really nice, and that's kind of enticing. The other way is when you actually take a sip, and bubbles form all over your mouth. There's tons of surface in there where the bubbles form. And then you swallow. It actually goes through this back channel in your nose, which I know we've talked about before, this kind of retro... Nasal olfaction, so it's going into your nose from the other way. And that actually allows you to taste it more.

• 30:18Dan Pashman?

  So right, it's sort of the back of the throat pathway to your nose as opposed to going through your nostrils.

• 30:23Speaker 10

  Exactly. Yep. So it hits you in both ways. It hits you in the front when you're kind of going in for the sip. And then when you get the liquid in your mouth and it goes through the back. And so it actually helps you taste it more. So if you had, say, you know, a white wine that was flat and you tasted that and you had that exact same wine that was carbonated, you would taste a lot more of the carbonated one.

• 30:43Dan Pashman?

  So what you're saying is that white wine spritzer is superior to regular white wine?

• 30:47Speaker 10

  Wow, that's a, that's might be a tough position to take, but yeah, I could go for a spritzer right now, so I'll say that. But yeah, no, absolutely. It is, it's like a flavor amplifier to have carbonation in your drink.

• 31:01Dan Pashman?

  My next question for Dan, why do some seltzers seem to have bigger bubbles while others have smaller bubbles? What are they doing differently? Well, Dan actually says that's mostly an illusion. The bubbles are really all about the same size. When a drink has more bubbles, we perceive it in our mouths as having bigger bubbles, but it's really just that it's more. Less carbonated drinks feel like smaller bubbles. That being said, there may be one way to get bigger bubbles.

• 31:26Speaker 10

  So there is one really interesting thing, and I've never tested this out. But so the bubbles form in the glass on what we call little nucleation sites. So there are little microscopic gas bubbles already in there. Usually they're on like little fibers from like the cloth you clean to clean the glass or a little crack in the glass. So there's a little tiny bubble and CO2 enters that, fills it up. And it, once it gets enough CO2 in that bubble that it's buoyant, it rises up through, through the glass, right? And as it's rising up, it's picking up more CO2 along the way. So the bubble grows and grows and grows. So the bubble, if you look like on like macro photography, when it first forms versus when it comes to the top, the bubble's bigger. So I always wondered if you had a glass that was like a quarter of a mile tall, like,

• 32:08Dan Pashman?

  This is why we have you on to answer this question, Dan, because you have already wondered the things that I just started wondering.

• 32:13Speaker 10

  I have, like, like, how big would the bubble get by the time you get to the top?

• 32:17Dan Pashman?

  Wait, wait, hold on. Follow up question. How much time have you spent on micro photography websites looking at pictures of bubbles?

• 32:23Speaker 10

  I've spent a little bit of time on there. Yeah, I definitely have. It's been, it's been a little, it's been probably a couple of years.

• 32:29Dan Pashman?

  But you never forget your first experiences on a micro photography website, looking at close up pictures of bubbles.

• 32:34Speaker 10

  It's so true.

• 32:44Dan Pashman?

  Now, in case you're not as hardcore as Dan, you haven't been on those bubble websites, you don't have a toddler-sized tank of CO2, a home carbonator like a SodaStream or a SodaSense, that's gonna be your best bet. And Dan's got some tips for getting the best results from those machines.

• 32:59Speaker 10

  So you want your liquid to be as cold as possible. So your best bet for making seltzer in a SodaStream is to make ice water. So stir together, you know, plenty of ice in your water, get it down to nice and cold.

• 33:09Dan Pashman?

  Dan, Dan, all right, look, I appreciate that you're gonna explain things. You don't need to give us the recipe for ice water.

• 33:14Speaker 10

  No, but you know what? I actually, I actually think it's important because ice water can mean really different things to different people. So like, two ice cubes in a quart of water, that's not necessarily gonna get down to 32 degrees. Right? So you want a good amount of ice in there. Give it a couple stirs, and then you're gonna strain it off the ice.

• 33:33Dan Pashman?

  Oh, jeez, wow.

• 33:35Speaker 10

  So strain that into...

• 33:36Dan Pashman?

  This is a Cook's Illustrated-level recipe for ice water, right?

• 33:40Speaker 10

  Yeah, so you basically get your water down to 32 degrees, strain it into your SodaStream and carbonate, and you will get a much bubblier product than, you know, if it was at 40 degrees, 45, 60, you name it.

• 33:53Dan Pashman?

  Dan, before we wrap up, I wanna talk to you about the cocktail that I'm kinda getting into, and I wanna get your tips. So I went through a phase where I was drinking, I don't even know how or why I got into this. The mood just struck me one day, but I've been drinking whiskey on the rocks with water, like, three parts water to one part whiskey.

• 34:10Speaker 10

  Okay, that's a fair amount of water, yeah.

• 34:11Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. I'm sure it's considered an abomination to anyone who appreciates good whiskey, but it's been working for me.

• 34:16Speaker 10

  I have a friend from Kentucky. Her name is Meredith, and she introduced me to whiskey and water. Not quite in the same ratio that you're talking about, maybe a little bit less water, but I also think that's an amazing drink.

• 34:26Dan Pashman?

  And now I'm in this, I'm kinda on a seltzer kick, and then I'm reading about the highball. You know, a highball's been around for a long time, but I didn't realize, I'm getting competing... Definitions from the internet, first of all. Some people say a highball is any combination of any liquor and any soda.

• 34:42Speaker 10

  Ah.

• 34:42Dan Pashman?

  Served in a tall glass. Other people say a highball is whiskey with club soda or ginger ale, or club soda, or half and half ginger ale club soda. Other people say it's just whiskey and club soda. So what is a highball? And I'm pretty sure this is my new favorite drink in the world. So how do I get, how do I make a good one?

• 35:01Speaker 10

  My understanding was always whiskey and club soda. And most often, and I don't know if this is just because that's where it really took off, but Japanese whiskey, so kind of the, the single malt style that they do there. That's like Suntory. And they even have machines in some bars that make a very, very nice highball with like just the perfect ratio of water to whiskey.

• 35:22Dan Pashman?

  What is the perfect ratio?

• 35:23Speaker 10

  Well, see, that's the thing is I, I, I don't, I don't know. It's not a drink that I make at home very much, but I don't really know why. Cause I, I also love whiskey and I clearly love carbonated drinks. I would do it to taste. I actually think your ratio for that kind of drink with some bubbles might actually be really nice. Like, I think you want the caramel, kind of slightly sweet notes of the whiskey, but it's, it's not supposed to hit you over the head. That I think you'd want, you know, at least twice as much water as whiskey and maybe three times as much.

• 35:49Dan Pashman?

  Right. I, I think that, I think this is going to be my quarantine drink.

• 35:53Speaker 10

  Well, yeah, and now, now you've, you've set me on this. So I'm going to have to do a ton of experimenting with this.

• 35:58Dan Pashman?

  Oh, well, I want you to, I want you to.

• 36:01Speaker 10

  You really set me up here, Dan.

• 36:02Dan Pashman?

  Well, I got a great recipe for ice water if you need it.

• 36:05Speaker 10

  I might, I might take you up on that.

• 36:07Dan Pashman?

  Well, Dan Souza, editor in chief of Cooks Illustrated. It's always fun to catch up, continue your good work in the field of carbonation and other food science. Folks, of course, can check out your work and recipes and techniques and tips and articles at?

• 36:21Speaker 10

  Cooks Illustrated.com.

• 36:22Dan Pashman?

  There we go. Thanks, Dan. Be well. Take care.

• 36:25Speaker 10

  Thanks, Dan. Good to talk to you.

• 36:34Dan Pashman?

  This show is produced by me along with senior producer

• 36:36Speaker 11

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 36:37Dan Pashman?

  And producer Andres O'Hara. Our editor is

• 36:40Speaker 11

  Tracy Samuelson.

• 36:41Dan Pashman?

  Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. Additional production by Sam Lee. Special thanks to Kevin Liu, owner of The Jasper in Richmond, Virginia, and to Professor Roberto Zenit at Brown University. This Sporkful is a production of Stitcher. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Daisy Rosario. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 37:01Speaker 07

  And I'm Susan Morville from Ann Arbor, Michigan, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 37:23Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

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