Joy 101: Jefferson Fisher

"Most of the time, the biggest cause of miscommunication is that what was said was not the thing that was heard." -Jefferson Fisher Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is Presented by CVS. Shop your local CVS, right around the corner. Experience the full conversation on the "Joy 101 podcast with Hoda Kotb" wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information, please visit us at www.joy101.com/podcast https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.joy101.com%2Fpodcast&data=05%7C02%7CBrianBurton%40iheartmedia.com%7Cd39cb283329d41176c3a08deef4c256d%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C639211307475529643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Kk4Aykfpq0xK1BLdTAxY53YJp%2F4tU99ONMpHqM64XY8%3D&reserved=0 See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Hoda Kotb?

  Hi guys, welcome to Joy 101, the podcast. I'm so happy that you're here. We are midsummer. And I was just thinking about one-on-one time in life. You know how, how sometimes you do family vacations or family dinners, or you go out with your friends, et cetera, et cetera. And I did something last week where I took my 16-year-old niece on a little mini vacation, just the two of us, and we'd never done that before. And it was one of these spectacular vacations, not because of where we went or what we did, because we were together. And

• 0:54Hoda Kotb?

  she asked me during the vacation, I was like, what was your favorite part? She goes, oh, I love the spa, I love this. And then she said, what was your favorite part? And I said, my favorite part was watching you. And watching her kind of come out of her shell, watching her blossom, listening to her talk about school, about life, about boys, about everything. And I realized, had it not been for that time together alone, we would have never had that conversation. She would have been 17, and then she would have gone off to college, and then, you know, life rolls on. So it was a reminder to me,

• 1:35Hoda Kotb?

  and just today, in fact, I'm in, I'm in, in our office, my seven-year-old came here to my office to spend part of the day with me. So I think whenever we carve up time, which we all have to all the time, it's the way we live. But I think every now and then, taking out some time to do something individually, to do something one-on-one. And I feel like I learned stuff, too. I'm not like, you know, Miss Aunt Hoda, the advice giver. I feel like I was on the receiving end, and I learned a lot about her. I also learned that the less I talk, the more she talks. I learned that she has tons of wisdom, my niece does. I learned that not everyone's going to be on my schedule. I like to get up early and

• 2:18Hoda Kotb?

  exercise, and she kind of got up later. But I realized we met in the middle. So good advice is so important, and it can come from everywhere. And I'm so excited about my next guest, because if you want to talk good advice, I've got two words for you, Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson Fisher. Okay, so some of you may know Jefferson Fisher already. He's a former trial attorney. He actually still is a trial attorney. But he started giving great life advice, advice about boundaries, about saying no, about how to ask for a raise, all these things. So in his words, he started off as an attorney,

• 3:00Hoda Kotb?

  which is an observer of people and a way to argue. And he realized that arguing doesn't win, but listening often does. So he said, God kind of steered him into this other profession. I heard him on the Mel Robbins podcast, and on Diary of a CEO, and a bunch of other places. And now I can't unsee him. And I, I have this beautiful conversation with Jefferson. He taught me things. He has great advice. If you are in a relationship and not communicating, Jefferson Fisher is your guy. If you are concerned about how am I going to ask my boss for a raise, I'm too afraid, Jefferson Fisher is the guy. If you're somebody who's just trying to put some boundaries up, because you're saying yes to everybody, and you're

• 3:43Hoda Kotb?

  like an empty vessel, Jefferson Fisher is your guy. So I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Jefferson Fisher.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 3:55Hoda Kotb?

  Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is presented by CVS. I've realized that joy doesn't always come from those big moments. Sometimes you find it on the most ordinary day. I'll pop into a CVS for toothpaste or paper towels, and it never seems to be just a quick errand. Maybe I'll grab a delicious Well Market Trail Mix, or wander over to the Joy Word Collection. That's part of the fun. So the next time you're checking something off your to-do list, stop by your local CVS pharmacy. You might go in for one thing and leave with a little more joy. Visit your local CVS pharmacy, sponsored by CVS. Every purchase is a financial decision. So it's worth asking, what am I getting

• 4:36Hoda Kotb?

  out of this? If you're using the Chase Freedom Flex Card, you can maximize your cash back on things you need. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. Sign up for the Chase Freedom Flex Card. Learn more at chase.com/getflex. This is a paid collaboration with Chase Freedom Flex. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, NA Member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Offer subject to change. Terms apply.

• 5:02Speaker 02

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• 5:31Speaker 03

  I'm Melissa Jelton, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge.

• 5:46Speaker 04

  You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.

• 6:10Hoda Kotb?

  Okay, first of all, I'm so happy to be with you for multiple reasons. Number one, you're so funny, because the minute I saw you somewhere on Insta or whatever, you're all I see now. Like, it's like, when I, when I wanted to buy a Toyota Sienna, all I could, now all I ever see on the, I'm like, there's another, oh my God, they're everywhere. So you're everywhere, which I think is so cool. Tell me about whether you hit the scene as kind of an explosion, and then you're here, or was it a slow build? Because if you're looking for advice on how to speak to people, how to be calm, all

• 6:50Hoda Kotb?

  boundaries, you seem to have a ton of answers. So how did you make your emergence onto this, onto this platform?

• 6:58Speaker 05

  Oh, I started probably a little over three years ago or so. And I, just an attorney, and I'm still an attorney, my wife's an attorney, we have two young kids. And right around that time, I thought, well, I, I wanted, I was at a big defense firm, and I wanted to go off and do my own thing. In my late twenties, like, I can, I can do this. And so at that time, I thought, well, I need to be on social media. And so I started making videos shortly after on, like, what can I make that's just content for, for good in the world? You know, there's no shortage of good things in the world. So how could I just help? And I thought, well, people think that attorneys know how to argue. So

• 7:42Speaker 05

  I was like, how can I, I made a video on how to argue like an attorney. But it was different than most people think, you know, instead of trying to win, it's trying to understand. And I think there's a lot of contrast there. And I gave advice on not only my own personal experience, I'm a fifth-generation attorney, so everybody in my family is an attorney. And then, you know, if you've been married, if you have kids, there's a lot of lessons there, my faith as well. And so I just started answering questions. And I never, in a million years, Hoda, thought this is where it would be. There was never a, let me go online, and this is what I'm working towards, and I, one day I'm going to have this. No, it, in, like, I barely put some stuff out, and then it just went nuts.

• 8:27Hoda Kotb?

  Boom. Well, you have like, almost seven million followers. I was looking, and I was like, wait, what? I mean, this is crazy. But I did have to go way back, because I love to look for a commencement address. I always feel like that that's a real tell.

• 8:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:41Hoda Kotb?

  And no matter who I interview, I'm like, I wonder if they've ever given a commencement address. Well, I saw one that you gave at your own school.

• 8:48Speaker 05

  I did.

• 8:49Hoda Kotb?

  And you, you were, first of all, adorable. Secondly, your timing and your humor. So I know your advice works. But life, I feel like, especially in this field of communication, which I'm intimately familiar with, too, it's like, a lot of things are about timing and how you go about it. When you were a little kid, was this just one of your things? Like, you, you had that thing, people laughed when you said things?

• 9:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was definitely, I was definitely a ham. I was definitely a ham. You know, I see myself in my son now, who is the exact, you know, exact same way. I put on a lot of little performances. I had like, little mock trials, and I did mock trial, even competitively in college. But yeah, it was definitely something that's, that's always kind of been there. And to see this. Kind of turn into that path because a lot of it is also creative in some sense of how you come up with videos and how can I distill things and make it really practical and digestible. And so it's funny how God's gonna just use these gifts in a way

• 9:59Speaker 05

  that says, okay, you started in law, but I'm gonna switch you over to

• 10:03Hoda Kotb?

  Turn you this way.

• 10:04Speaker 05

  Yeah. And so it's, it's just been a really full circle moment that I just never, ever, you know, I feel like some people get, you know, they climb towards something and other people get pushed towards something. And that was definitely mine where I, I just never, I had a friend, Hoda, I'm not kidding, when I was on Instagram, right before I started making videos, I had a friend who was another attorney and he had a thousand followers on Instagram. And I was like, a thousand followers? How could you ever get a thousand followers? Because everybody I had was just friends from, you know, high school and law school.

• 10:36Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah, your, your people. What I love about this is what's interesting to me about you is you're an attorney and attorneys know how to argue or, and as you said, now to understand the person you're opposite, you're opposite from. But I feel like the stuff you're talking about is, is nothing about that. I mean, it is about communicating, but it's really about life. It's about connecting. It's about understanding. It's more in your, it's more like spirit and in your, you know, being as opposed to how am I going to organize these thoughts so I can say it in the right way? I mean, so what? Some of the worst communicators I know, I connect with soul to soul, you know, you feel their vibe. I mean, there are

• 11:20Hoda Kotb?

  certain people, Jefferson, when I walk in a room, I feel totally at ease. And there are some people, I may or may not know them, I feel kind of like my back's up. What, and I'm sure you've had these kind of feelings in the courtroom and among friends. Why is it that there are people who instantly put us at ease? We're like, oh, I like that person. I don't know them, but I like them.

• 11:42Speaker 05

  Yeah. It has something to do with part charisma.

• 11:48Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 11:48Speaker 05

  I think it's deeper than that. Because charisma is not something you can exactly, you can, you can say charismatic things. You can give compliments. You can, you know, give things with, with honey instead of vinegar. Warmth is something different. Warmth is a, is a feeling that needs no words, that they just, all of a sudden, your shoulders relax. If I were to, you know, ask you, what's a memory in your past where you just, you have to, like, for me, I can go back to being in my grandparents' living room, and I can feel

• 12:28Speaker 05

  the texture of the couch, and I can smell it. And I just know, when my grandmother came in, she just put me at ease, right? And just, hey, baby, come here, come here, darling. Like, you're just, you're good. And there's certain people in your life that whenever the world's really reactive, they, they stay

• 12:49Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 12:50Speaker 05

  just steady. And you look, we're always looking for these anchors in personalities that when the ship's rocking, you don't, you don't want to go for the person who's really reactive. You're looking for the person who's really steady. And when they can bring that warmth, that is, it's just a glow about them that you go, I don't, I can't put my, my finger on it. But there's something about their personality that says, I'm safe, I'm welcome, and I'm enough. And when you find that person in your life, you cling to them. Because we know what it's like on the opposite, when there's that person that whenever you're around, your anxiety spikes, you feel way more, everything just feels off kilter, and you feel emotionally

• 13:34Speaker 05

  reactive. It's, it's the people that decide that they want to spend the time with you. And usually they're a lot slower in the way they enunciate, you know? Yeah, that, that's, that's the cue.

• 13:49Hoda Kotb?

  By the way, that's so interesting. I had an instant parenting thought when you said that, because there was one day, my daughter Haley will never hear this, so what do I care? So she was throwing things in the trash that mattered to me. It was one of those days where she was in some kind of defiance. So there was a poem that I loved, she took it, dropped it in the trash, and I sat on the couch and I was calm. Okay? Then she took my computer and put it in a trash can. I was calm, I sat there. It was like, I was thinking about people who used to sit at lunch counters, not to compare, but quiet resistance. I'm like, I'm gonna be the eye of the hurricane right here. I'm gonna be totally calm. And

• 14:33Hoda Kotb?

  after about 10 minutes, she pulled everything out. She came over on the couch, she sat with me, and she cuddled with me and said, oh, you know, I'm sorry, and then explained whatever was bothering her at the time. But do you use this in parenting? Because you have a six and an eight-year-old?

• 14:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 14:48Hoda Kotb?

  And I know that that must be one of the things that helps.

• 14:52Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. It's always knowing that, for the most part, you know, we're just big kids. And so, like my daughter this morning, we're under huge jet lag. My daughter is just in tears this morning. And there's no, anything that she would typically like to eat, besides she now hates. Right? And, and she's short-tempered, super whiny, and just like you, we could have come in and said, you have to fall under what I say is acceptable and not acceptable.

• 15:27Speaker 05

  But with children, it's the same when they were a baby, you know, when they're screaming, it's like, you're not gonna get mad that they're crying. It's, you go, okay, I see that they're hungry. They're tired. Just those two right there.

• 15:40Hoda Kotb?

  Yes.

• 15:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, they're, they're overwhelmed by something. It's the same for, for us. And so it helps me so much, and especially in my kids, I see so much of myself in them, that not only has me more, getting more compassion for myself, because it's like, why would I, would I talk to my kids the same way I talk to myself, you know, sometimes? And so that, that, those checks and balances of knowing that when she was starting to complain, and she didn't want the, the cereal bar that she loves, I was like, you just, you just need me to hold you? Yes. And, you know, of course, I'm holding her. I was like, are we just sleepy?

• 16:21Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. It's like, that right there is all they, they really need. And I think, deep down, a lot of the times, that's, it really is all that comes, comes down, comes down to it, is we're still, we're still looking for, dealing with those basic needs.

• 16:38Hoda Kotb?

  I think we spend so much of our lives waiting for the big moments, the birthdays, the vacations, the milestones. But the truth is, some of the happiest moments show up on the most ordinary days. So like this, I'll stop into a CVS because I need one thing. Somehow, the best part of the trip is never the thing I came for. So maybe I'll grab a delicious well-market snack, or maybe I'll wander over to the Joyward Collection. It's really full of fun, cool, seasonal decor, thoughtful little gifts, and those little discoveries that make you so glad you stopped in. I have to tell you, if you're an Extra Care member, you're gonna save on things you're already buying, and those extra bucks really

• 17:20Hoda Kotb?

  do add up. Just watching that total go down at the checkout never, ever gets old. I know life's busy. We're all juggling a lot. And that's why I think those little unexpected moments of joy matter so much. So, the next time you're running errands, stop by your local CVS pharmacy. You may go in for something you need, but don't be surprised if you leave with something that simply makes your day a little brighter. Visit your local CVS pharmacy, sponsored by CVS. Halloween has a funny way of making you buy things you'd never normally buy. A 10-foot skeleton? Sure. A full-size fog machine? Why not? Three bags of candy

• 18:00Hoda Kotb?

  that somehow become six bags of candy? It happens. Which brings me to the Chase Freedom Flex Card, the savvy decision that will earn you more cash back on the everyday purchases, plus the extraordinary Halloween tricks and treats. With Freedom Flex, you earn even more treats on your Halloween and everyday needs. You get 5% cash back on popular rotating quarterly categories, 3% on dining and drugstores, and 1% on all other purchases. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. That's no tricks, all treats. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. So sign up for the Chase Freedom Flex Card. Learn more at chase.com/getflex.

• 18:42Hoda Kotb?

  This is a paid collaboration with Chase Freedom Flex. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, NA Member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Offer subject to change. Terms apply.

• 18:54Speaker 06

  Hello, hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. Imagine your business depends on a system you didn't build and don't fully control. For years, it works perfectly. It's fast, reliable, affordable. So over time, more and more of your operations rely on it. Then one day, the terms change. What once felt flexible now feels difficult to leave. Moving to another provider or bringing those capabilities back under your own control could take years, cost millions, and disrupt the business in the process. That's the challenge of digital sovereignty. Businesses today rely on all sorts of third-party systems,

• 19:36Speaker 06

  cloud platforms, data pipelines, AI models, software tools. Most days, these systems operate quietly in the background. But when something changes, like costs go up or rules shift, organizations are forced to confront how much control and flexibility they actually have. So to understand the challenge up close, I traveled to Paris to speak with IBM's Annapola Assis and Axas CIO, Giovanni Daniele, two people who think about these questions every day. Hear the full conversation at ibm.com/smarttalks or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 20:20Hoda Kotb?

  I think all the stuff you talk about when it comes to communication is so important because relationships fall apart because of bad communication. Work relationships go sideways because of bad communication. I mean, you can, and you think they understand you. You thought, you communicated it. Didn't you understand what I was saying when I said X? But will you talk to that point? Because I think some people have trouble being completely clear. They assume the man they're with should understand their feelings, or the boss that they're dealing with, you know, should kind of get A, B, or C.

• 20:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, there's this quote that I love that it says, "The number one problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."

• 21:07Hoda Kotb?

  That's so good.

• 21:10Speaker 05

  I think that is just gold because most of the time, the biggest cause of miscommunication is what was said was not the thing that was heard.

• 21:20Hoda Kotb?

  Okay.

• 21:22Speaker 05

  Like, I was like, I said this, because you know what it's like in relationships, where somebody replies back to you and they go, "That's not what I said." And you're like, "Yeah, that's exactly what you said." "I wish I had it on camera. I wish I had this recorded so you could see exactly how you said it." And the truth is, we are very bad, uh, subjective, you know, judges of how we say things. We hear it in our head, but we're not great at also accepting how it is to receive it. Communication is not just something said, it is, it also has to be received.

• 22:03Speaker 05

  And when you continue to give voice to only the unvoiced expectations and expect people to read between the lines, you are just setting yourself up for disappointment. Instead of saying, "That's not what I said," turn that into, "Tell me, tell me what you heard. Tell me, tell me what, tell me what you heard. What am I missing?"

• 22:21Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 22:23Speaker 05

  When you stop to say, "Okay, there's a disconnect here. Let's talk about the disconnect," instead of me telling you how

• 22:30Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 22:31Speaker 05

  dumb you are, how much you don't care, how this is always you and you never listen. Instead of going towards the person, you say, "Okay, well, there must be a disconnect here. Help me, let's stop and let's break it down." And though that sounds really simple to say, "Let's time out and let's talk about the process of how the communication is happening," rather than talking about the content of the communication, it sounds simple, but it is, it is everything when you're able to break down and find where's the, where's the knot in the string.

• 23:01Hoda Kotb?

  By the way, when you just said the thing about, "Hey, wait, tell me what you heard," my shoulders literally dropped down because we've all been in the, "Wait, what, what?" But difficult conversations, all of them, I mean, I don't know how many you've had in your lifetime, I've had a bunch too, where you have to have this conversation, but sometimes there's a philosophy, at least it was in our family growing up, is it will die on the vine eventually, so let it go. And you know, "Why are we gonna rock the boat? Everything is fine." You know, in the course of all the problems, this one ain't so big, so we don't need to hash it out.

• 23:46Speaker 05

  Right.

• 23:47Hoda Kotb?

  I think a lot of people just dust things away. Why is it important to have these kind of conversations? And when do they reach the level of, "Oh God, we have to have it?"

• 23:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's definitely something that is generational.

• 24:01Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 24:02Speaker 05

  I would say, I feel like here and now, in the, in the times that we live in, communication is more talked about than it's ever been. It's that there's still that, you know, hush, let's keep it under wraps, what would the neighbors think? We can't let people know, you know, how we really, really are. Um, we don't want to bring it up, we don't want to ruin the moment, and we're all here together at this family thing because this grandparent is still alive and we know, once they're gone, we're all, you know, going our separate ways. When, when you have all these unvoiced things

• 24:36Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 24:37Speaker 05

  and you bury them, they are only sure to resurface years, because we know what that's like of parent relationships especially, that it's, there are people listening right now who don't probably communicate with their mom or their dad anymore because of all the things that was, that were left unsaid. Like that, that misalignment in relationships, that miscommunication, that estrangement, it doesn't happen in one fell swoop, like one big conversation. It usually happens because all of these little bitty paper-cook conversations where a conversation could have happened, but, but it didn't. And so when you leave it unvoiced, those things grow.

• 25:21Speaker 05

  So, how do you know when to bring something up? To me, it's always the next day rule. If I'm still carrying it the next day,

• 25:28Hoda Kotb?

  Hmm.

• 25:29Speaker 05

  if I'm still carrying it the next day. Time is a way of sifting priorities. And so if something's bothering me right now, it may not bother me in the morning, you know, but if I wake up and I'm still carrying it and it's still heavy on my heart, it's something that needs to be, needs to be voiced. And when you can say, "Hey, I need to tell you something that's been heavy on my heart," people listen. When you say, "I need to tell you something that's been tugging on my heart," there's something about when you invoke the heart. It's a difference between Hoda me asking, saying, "Hey, how are you doing?" And me also, or me asking, "Hey, Hoda, how's your heart?" Right? There's something about, you're not gonna get the same answer.

• 26:11Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 26:12Speaker 05

  And so whenever you invoke the heart, I think that has a way of getting right to the point of the conversation rather than sweeping it under the rug.

• 26:19Hoda Kotb?

  So if, when you said there are people who haven't spoken to their parents, their mom, their dad, their siblings, somebody, a best friend from years gone by, how, if that's the case, and it's been a freeze out for, you know, a while, how do you go about repairing if it's on your heart, which I'm sure it is when people wake up and it's a birthday, or it's whatever day? How do you even start the conversation or the process of thawing that?

• 26:47Speaker 05

  Hmm, I like, I like the word thaw. I like to follow this approach that I teach, and it's, it's one, beginning with the, the words, "I know." Sounds like, "I know there's distance between us. I know we haven't spoken in a while. I know things aren't how we both want them to be." Right? It's, it's saying the already understated, you know, it's, we already both know. We don't have to voice it, it's unspoken.

• 27:15Hoda Kotb?

  Hmm.

• 27:17Speaker 05

  Two is, "I'm not." This is where you address, you forecast what they're already thinking about the conversation, the rebuttal. So it would be, you know, "I know there's a distance between us. I'm not asking you to apologize. I'm not bringing things, rehash old wounds. I'm not trying to..." It is, "I'm not," you're addressing that. And three is, "I'm ready." And it's not, "I'm ready to talk," because nobody probably wants to hear you talk. It's, "I'm ready to listen."

• 27:49Hoda Kotb?

  Oh, I'm ready to listen.

• 27:51Speaker 05

  It's not, "I'm ready to talk, I'm ready to listen." And there's something about somebody saying, "I'm ready to listen," makes them want to lean into it more, because now you're an empty cup. Right? Instead of saying, "Hey, I have a full glass and I'm ready to splash it on you whenever you're ready," it's, it's, it's me saying, "Hey, I am, I'm an empty vessel right now. I know things are not where we want them to be, and I am, I'm not at all interested in trying to rehash the past. I'm, I'm ready to listen whenever, whenever you are." And so there's something about that, that incorporates that element of, "I can affirm how you feel without having to agree with it.

• 28:36Speaker 05

  And that must be hard. I can see why you feel that way." If that's how you interpreted it, of course you, you would think that I am everything that you say that I am right now. And there's something about the contrasts that's going to, to make that conversation, you know, have a better chance of coming alive.

• 28:53Hoda Kotb?

  Would you have that convo in person or on the phone? Or does it, does it matter?

• 28:58Speaker 05

  Ideally, you want it in person. There's nothing like seeing somebody face to face. There's, there's nothing that can ever replace that. Um, you know, face to face is the most high emotion medium that you have. Text is the lowest, you know, email's the lowest. I, I could tell you, if you ask me a question by text, Hoda, and I just said, "Okay," you'd be like, "Well, what kind of okay is that? You know, is he mad? Is he not? Does he think it's dumb? You never know."

• 29:29Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 29:30Speaker 05

  Um, phone is also great. Some people don't get that chance, because the other person just kind of ices them out. I think voice texts are really good. Uh, voicemails are good. Anything that they can hear your tone of your voice. If you put it in words, most often, unless it's a handwritten letter, which I think adds to that emotion and character that is unique to you, but if it's something that is not unique, unique, such as text or email, then they will read, they'll interpret your emotions for you. And it's, it's never positive. They'll, they'll read it in the worst light.

• 30:08Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah, you're right. I was just thinking about this guy I was interviewing, and he said something about, he goes, "Think of someone who you wanted to say thank you to, who you just haven't, for whatever reason." And he goes, "Now, write them a letter, you know, and describe all the ways that you wanted to thank them." And then he said, "And then I want to see you walk up to the door and ring the doorbell and read it. Just read it right to them." And I was just imagining the feeling of someone walking up who you know, and it's like words unspoken, because we all carry sort of words unspoken. But I think, back to the kind of difficult conversations, um, you know, I always weirdly feel better after one. I hate them when they're happening.

• 30:52Hoda Kotb?

  You're like, "This is the worst. My heart is pounding, I'm sweating." Like, I just feel so bad. But what have you learned, or what have, I mean, with all the people you've, you've been dealing with over time, what happens after you finally say whatever the thing is you've wanted to say for so long, but have been holding on to it?

• 31:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:15Speaker 05

  The moment the difficult conversation is over, if you handle it well, that's for that, you know, exception, if you approach it with wanting to understand more than trying to prove, if you approach it in a way that's soft, softer, if not just in demeanor, but also in tone. I'm not saying you can't be assertive. Let's say you handle exactly how you want it to be. What I have found time and time again, that the conflict they were so scared of was the very breakthrough that they were missing, that they were needing the most. And when

• 31:57Speaker 05

  you can have that conversation with that brother you haven't seen in three years, or you can have that conversation with that supervisor, or that difficult thing you know you need to say to that spouse, and you reach it, and you're able to actually come together through that conflict, because now you've been through something, you've created trust, it's a weight off your shoulders. All of a sudden, you feel like you, life looks better. Relationships are better. I am somebody that truly believes that if you want to heal your relationships, it starts with the next conversation. I mean, you have that ability

• 32:42Speaker 05

  in how we communicate. And I rarely, if ever, whenever somebody's told me, say, yeah, I tried it, but it made it worse, it was usually not on their account. It was because the other person, you know, wasn't ready, and you can't control all of that.

• 32:59Hoda Kotb?

  What if it's a one-way street? I mean, you know, some people are with spouses who are just set in their ways. You know, it's sort of like someone was saying to me, like, every few years, you should reintroduce yourself to your spouse. Like, I don't like Applebee's anymore. I used to love it, and I don't eat there. I don't want to go sit in that same restaurant. But you always liked it. But you always like a jean jacket. It's like, I don't like a jean jacket. But if, you know, if you get to a point where your spouse is like, kind of, this is our relationship, and this is life, you know, this is what, this is the way it is, and they're not open to this kind of discussion, what is a person to do? Because I have friends who are in that category. Their spouses don't really want to hear it. Yeah.

• 33:41Speaker 05

  Well, I think there's a, there's the key issue is whether they want to, whether they want to hear it. It's hard to be in a relationship where you're the only one rowing, you know, where you feel like your shoulders are just, and there's probably people, we both know, their shoulders are getting a little tired. And there has to be, to me, two things. One is the ability to think outside of yourself, meaning to be able to repair when conflict and ruptures happen. And the second of all, you have to be able to take accountability. I think that's one of the biggest issues in relationships, is where

• 34:25Speaker 05

  one person refuses to take accountability. So our patterns just continue to, continue to repeat. I can choose to have a very difficult conversation with you, Oda, and you may completely disagree. That's still something that within myself, I still had that same amount of relief because I said it. I chose to say what I needed to say. And at some point, there has to be, you know, which conversation am I going to take more, which one ranks higher in priority, the relationship and conversation I'm having with myself and who I am, or the conversation I have to have with you. And if I always have the conversation with you taking priority over the conversation with me, well, then I will always make sure that

• 35:08Speaker 05

  I'm not okay unless you're okay. Right? That's the much more insecure way to approach it. I have, my grandparents, Oda, do this thing where they have a yearly contract that they actually write out. Now, it's not like enforceable or anything, but, so, they, at their anniversary, they'll have, they have like written things of, like, who's gonna, who's gonna handle the trash? Who's gonna, you know, this is how many times we're gonna go on a date night? This is who's gonna be responsible for this? And it's in humor, it's in fun, of just how you said, you're not always married to the same person. I

• 35:49Speaker 05

  mean, you can be married to the same human, but sometimes not always the same person. They're, we're always changing and growing. And so they kind of do this thing, my grandfather will say, you sure you want to go another round? And, you know, they make that, they'll sign it and kind of keep it amongst themselves as relief more.

• 36:09Hoda Kotb?

  That's got to catch. I mean, sorry, that has got to catch. It's super cute. Let me ask you about conversations that have always been hard for me, up until, I think, I mean, I hate to say this, but like my mid-50s. I'm 61 right now, my mid-50s. So, all through my professional career, I have said, thank you. I was hired at, you know, at my very first job, and I was making more, working at Ponderosa, and I was happy to take the job, because it was like, you know, it's like more of an education. But as it went through all these different jobs throughout, I knew I was underpaid. With my co-anchor, I was underpaid here and there. I was hired at Dateline, and I was the lowest-paid correspondent.

• 36:52Hoda Kotb?

  I was making less than I did when I was in local, but I wanted that job. And this continued on and on and on. And when you start behind the eight ball, it takes a while to get to it. And I remembered one saying to my agents, they said, well, this is all they're gonna be paying. I go, I don't, I don't love it enough, so, you know, ask for this number, or we're not doing it. And it was when I finally like got some moxie. And the agent said, you know, they're gonna say no. I go, okay, well, you can ask. So she asked, and she said, oh, my God, they said yes. I was like, okay. So the next time, I knew where the bar was, and it went on. But the conversation of, this is what I'm worth, this is what

• 37:35Hoda Kotb?

  I believe I bring to the table, was extremely hard for me, because I always felt lucky to be at the network, lucky to be here, sort of like, wow, I was, I was having pinch-me moments up until the moment I left. Like, wow, how does this happen? So, those kinds of conversations, whether you're in a room with your bosses, you're asking for a raise, you need what X, whatever it is, how, how to start those, and how to have the confidence, because you can say the words and not believe it, and look like a scared, you know, deer. And they're not gonna, they're gonna say, come back later. Not right now. It's not a good time, you know, those lines.

• 38:16Speaker 05

  Awesome question. I think that whenever, especially, you are, let's say, you've put in the work to establish yourself, whether in your resume, or you're, you know that you're gonna be starting from somewhere. And eventually, you've gotten to a place where you feel like, okay, I got a lot under my wings here, and here's what I know I feel like I am worth compared to what everybody else is doing. What I have found, for those that I have guided through a lot of these situations, is where you talk about the role more so of ego. Let's say you're wanting to hire somebody, and you can either start

• 39:01Speaker 05

  talking about them as a person, or what I like to say is, start talking about the role. So, we have an assistant manager position, and this manager position's gonna require this, this, and this. And I'd love for that person to, to be you. And whoever's gonna be in that role is gonna need to do X, Y, and Z. Now, it works the same way, and here's the magic of it that I've seen, is when I've seen people interview or have these discussions with their supervisors, and say, whatever position, let's say they're trying to get into it. Now, this assistant manager's position that I'm, I'm going for, or whoever this slot

• 39:42Speaker 05

  is, or whoever I choose to work for, I need to see, is gonna require X, Y, and Z. From what I'm bringing to the table, and I know my value without having to go into it, because you already have my resume and all the recs, and whatever that is, is gonna require X, Y, and Z. And when you come into the conversation with requirements, people respect you more than if you have none. So when you come in with a level of, I'm not talking like, you know, swagger, where you're saying, this is, this is, this is what I have to have, and this is what it's going to be, and you need to walk away. There's something about requirements that say, when I come into this, it's gonna require this much of my time, this amount

• 40:27Speaker 05

  of money, this position, if I am to, if I'm gonna, I would hope that it would be this organization. All right, whoever I work for, whoever I work for, this role I'm gonna fill is gonna be X, Y, and Z for me to fill it. I would love for that organization to be you, you know?

• 40:45Hoda Kotb?

  That's a good flip.

• 40:47Speaker 05

  Exactly. And so it makes them think, oh, wow, okay, one, this person has confidence. One, second, I know they definitely believe in themselves, and if they believe in themselves, it makes me believe in them. And then, three, man, I don't want them to go off to somebody else. And so, they tend to get to the yeses more quickly than if you come in and, you know, well, I'd really hope it would be really nice if, no. You need to, you need to come in with, I know what I'm worth, I know what I've done. And I'd hope that this would be the organization. If not, you know, I have some others that I'm talking to, too.

• 41:23Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah, that's okay. Oh, I like that. What about, because, and this is kind of in the same vein, but being heard in a meeting, being heard when you are somebody who's, you know, it's a big group setting, and you, and a lot of women who are listening to this, I'm sure have heard this, have had this feeling, is you're saying something, and it's, you know, your voice is softer, whatever, you don't get, and then they call on the other guy who's next to you, or you say something, and someone else repeats it, and then they're like, great job, Bill. Yeah, you're like, I just said that, literally one second ago.

• 42:02Hoda Kotb?

  But how do you cut through as, how do you cut through in a, in a meeting so that you can feel confident enough to state what you want to state, and, you know, make sure that you're heard?

• 42:15Speaker 05

  So first would be, you want to grab attention. So what that is, you grabbing the mic. Second of all, you want to add curiosity to make them want to listen. And then, three, once you have that attention and that curiosity, then you need to lead with authority. So this, to me, is what it would sound like. You get people's attention when you use their name, in a very steady tone, not like as if you're asking permission. Like, if I were to ask you, You know, can you pass the salt, Hoda? I wouldn't ask it like, can you pass the salt? Like as if you don't know what it is. Like you, you, you have to say it in a tone. Cause there's some people, let's say I needed to interrupt you and you're talking in a meeting or um, there's a, there's a chance for me to communicate.

• 43:00Speaker 05

  And I was like, Hoda? Like people would be like, huh? As if you're more insecure. But if I was like, Hoda?

• 43:05Hoda Kotb?

  Right.

• 43:06Speaker 05

  Second all is you need to add contrast by that. I want you to say, I see something different. Or I take another approach. Or I get there a different way. And people go, oh, okay. What is, what is?

• 43:20Hoda Kotb?

  What is that?

• 43:21Speaker 05

  Exactly. Um, because if I just led with, you know, uh, you know what? I have a, I have a thought here. They're like, oh, another thought? Like that's, that's not going to do anything. We all have thoughts. I need to hear that you have something that's gonna move the conversation, the discussion forward. Once you have that, three, anything you can use around the word direction. Direction is a great captain word. And so when I can say, you know, Hoda, I, you know what? I get there a different way. To me, I, I, I see the direction of what we can do is blah, blah, blah. And so what you're saying is, hey, if, while I have the wheel of the ship, this is the direction that I would take.

• 44:05Speaker 05

  And at that moment, it allows people to go, okay, do we want to follow that direction?

• 44:09Hoda Kotb?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:10Speaker 05

  And, and take it there? Or do we want to continue to open the discussion? But it's going to keep it, prevent it from somebody just going, okay, that was, that was dumb. Let's, let's move that aside.

• 44:19Hoda Kotb?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:20Speaker 05

  Another that I really love, a, a quick little tip that I, I teach is if you can use percentages, there's something about percentages or maybe depending on the context you're in, maybe like an analogy. So for example, if you come in and say, hey, I have an idea. Most people will shoot it down because it's not their idea. Right? So they, they want to, they want to point out all the holes in it rather than saying, awesome job. But if you come in and say, hey, look, I have about hmm, 65% of an idea here. I need your help with the other 35. People all of a sudden go, oh, okay, let's, you know, the type A.

• 44:57Hoda Kotb?

  What is that? Yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, they want to go for the 35% because now they're, they see that as the challenge to, to meet.

• 45:05Hoda Kotb?

  Oh, interesting.

• 45:06Speaker 05

  Yeah. Or if you say, look, I, I, I think I'm in the red zone. I need, I need help kind of pushing it into the end zone here. There's something about using analogies that say, I need your help rather than saying, you know what? I don't really know here, you know, I could totally be wrong. Get, get rid of any of that.

• 45:26Hoda Kotb?

  Boom, it's over. Yes.

• 45:27Speaker 05

  Exactly. You want to, you want to push the conversation forward.

• 45:30Hoda Kotb?

  Oh, speaking of that language, I was meeting with this CEO coach because I, I'm, I run this company now called Joy 101 and I haven't, um, you know, I, I've worked in capacities of leadership, but never as a boss or a CEO. So this guy gave me some advice, which sounds kind of like what you were just saying. We were having a conversation and I was like, he was like, tell me about this, that and the other. What's, what's good? What's upsetting? What's this? What's that? I was like, okay. So I started, I was like, I was kind of upset about X and I was sort of happy about Y and I was a little bit pissed about it. And so after I was telling him this whole thing, he goes, stop. I go, what? He goes, you were kinda pissed? I go, yeah. He goes, no, no, you were pissed. It's okay.

• 46:15Hoda Kotb?

  You were sort of upset.

• 46:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:17Hoda Kotb?

  He was like, you were, you were upset. And he said, start pulling out those words. He goes, in your language, don't, he goes, don't stop dead and go, oh God, there it is again. It was just recognize, oh, there it is. Oh, there, there it goes. And then I started looking through, this is so funny, uh, Jefferson, I was looking through my old texts.

• 46:34Speaker 05

  Texts.

• 46:34Hoda Kotb?

  I was like, oh my God. Hey, it was like the, if, if I pulled out all those words and I saw afterwards, it's so like, it's so much clearer. A, you know, what direction I were going is clear when I take out all of the, hey, I was wondering if a ba, ba, ba, when you're finished with this and don't worry if, you know, and then by the time you're done, they're like, is that a priority or not? The person on the receiving end, like, I don't get it. But words like that do better, right?

• 47:04Speaker 05

  Yes, yes. Uh, a million times, yes. Especially the, the adverbs, the words that end in L Y. Uh, I, I, so many people will begin their sentence, you know, it's their time to talk in the meeting and they go, so basically, uh, that it's, it's, you're, you've already cut yourself down, you know?

• 47:24Hoda Kotb?

  Why do we hate that? Why is that a no?

• 47:26Speaker 05

  It's, it, it slows down the probe.

• 47:29Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 05

  It's not, it's not needed. Uh, if I say, well, clearly, well, if it was clear, you wouldn't need that word. If it was, uh, well, obviously, well, it was obvi, you wouldn't have to state it. And so when we think of the L Y words or the other adverbs like just, like so, very, really, why can't you just be happy for them? Why do you have to say, I'm so happy for, it, it's, there's something about the filling it with fluff. So imagine if I wanted to come in and said, you know, hey, just, just wanted to check on you, just, just saying hi. Instead of that, I said, I leaned into it and said, hey, I wanted to say hi to you. How are you doing? Like it's something about stepping into your language rather than way. And to me, I compare it to adding ice cubes to your, your drink.

• 48:14Speaker 05

  They're like, you know, well, you know, I'm sorta, I'm kinda, you know, I'm not really.

• 48:17Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 48:18Speaker 05

  You're, you're filling your sentence, you're watering down your message. To me, you got, you just, you don't need them. Get rid of them. Serve your words neat.

• 48:25Hoda Kotb?

  Get rid of them.

• 48:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:26Hoda Kotb?

  Serve your words neat. Is that one, on one of your T-shirts?

• 48:30Speaker 05

  Yeah. I should, I should.

• 48:33Hoda Kotb?

  Oh my God, with a little bourbon cup. We could see the whole thing. It's, it's all, I love that. I love that. I think we spend so much of our lives waiting for the big moments, the birthdays, the vacations, the milestones. But the truth is some of the happiest moments show up on the most ordinary days. So like this, I'll stop into a CVS because I need one thing. Somehow the best part of the trip is never the thing I came for. So maybe I'll grab a delicious well-marked snack or maybe I'll wander over to the Joyward Collection. It's really full of fun, cool, seasonal decor, thoughtful little gifts and those little discoveries that make you so glad you stopped in. I have to tell you, if you're an Extra Care member, you're going to save on things you're

• 49:17Hoda Kotb?

  already buying and those extra bucks really do add up. Just watching that total go down at the checkout never, ever gets old. I know life's busy. We're all juggling a lot and that's why I think those little unexpected moments of joy matter so much. So the next time you're running errands, stop by your local CVS pharmacy. You may go in for something you need, but don't be surprised if you leave with something that simply makes your day a little brighter. Visit your local CVS pharmacy, sponsored by CVS. Halloween has a funny way of making you buy things you'd never normally buy. A 10 foot skeleton? Sure. A full-size fog machine? Why not?

• 50:00Hoda Kotb?

  Three bags of candy that somehow become six bags of candy? It happens. Which brings me to the Chase Freedom Flex Card, the savvy decision that will earn you more cash back on the everyday purchases, plus the extraordinary Halloween tricks and treats. With Freedom Flex, you earn even more treats on your Halloween and everyday needs. You get 5% cash back on popular rotating quarterly categories, 3% on dining and drugstores, and 1% on all other purchases. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. That's no tricks, all treats. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. So sign up for the Chase Freedom Flex Card. Learn more at chase.com/getflex. This is a paid collaboration with Chase Freedom Flex.

• 50:45Hoda Kotb?

  Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, N A member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Offer subject to change. Terms apply.

• 50:54Speaker 06

  Hello, hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I spoke with IBM's Ana Paula Asis about what digital sovereignty actually means in the age of AI.

• 51:05Hoda Kotb?

  AI now moves from somebody operating a system to the technology actually making decisions. So you have to have a much better visibility of what AI is touching, data it is accessing and where.

• 51:21Speaker 06

  Hear the full conversation wherever you get your podcasts.

• 51:25Hoda Kotb?

  Um, you know, there are certain people for me who are like energizing too. Like I, when I'm around them, my cup fills up too. And there are certain people who are, you're, they're sort of depleting, you know? That's just when you're done, you hang up the phone. We've all had the person, you hang up and you go, oh my God. Like you don't just, uh, but this always brings up boundaries because sometimes you gotta, you know, you gotta have conversations, maybe not all of them you want to. But talk, if you would, about what's a, like, I like to call them loving boundaries, but putting boundaries up so that the world and people don't kind of drain your, your battery.

• 52:05Speaker 05

  Yeah. Boundaries, um, I mean, they're, there's something that you cannot do without, especially in conversation, whether it's something that's very loving relationship to your, you know, in the, in the office and you're having to make it very clear where, where you stand on things. How I like to talk about boundaries is a very simple formula because it can get really, there's so much on boundaries that's easy to get lost. To me, it is simply putting the boundary in place of me, I, beginning with the word I. So instead of you, you can't talk to me that way. Instead of that, which is only ensuring that they have all that control. Instead, I'm going to say, I don't respond to that tone.

• 52:50Speaker 05

  I don't respond to disrespect. When somebody raises their voice, I don't respond to that volume. Right? It has nothing to do with them, it has everything to do with me, as if my own operator's manual. If you want to communicate with me, this is, this is the yeses and the noes. If, if, if it's a no, then we're not going to communicate that way. That's, that's how that's going to go. So it would be, you know, I don't respond to disrespect. If you continue to speak to me in this manner, or in this way. And third is, this is the end of the conversation. That's how I, I like to put it, because when you say, the end of the conversation. What happens is, if they want to talk and continue the conversation, then it is incumbent on them

• 53:34Speaker 05

  to change the attitude. And so, whenever, even with my kids, and I do it very lovingly, and I'll say, look, I'm, I'm not going to respond to, to, to that rude answer. Okay, if, if you want me to come play with you. If you, if you don't change, I'll say, if you don't change how you're talking to me, then I'm not going to be able to come play with you right now. And I mean, just all of a sudden, they, they change it right into the, that, um, that, that mood, or whatever it is, and it goes all the way elevated to, plenty of times I've been on the phone. Like, I, I know it's like to hang up the phone, go, oh my gosh, huh.

• 54:11Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 54:12Speaker 05

  With that, that person. And it's like, hey, look. I, I, I don't respond, um, to being spoken to that way. If this is the way that you want to handle things, then this needs to be the end of the conversation. And the best thing about it is, if you're going to have that consequence, you are going to hang up. You can't, you don't just click, you know, you don't just hang up. Right? That's, that's not the assertive way to do it. You need to speak it out loud. I'm gonna, I'm gonna end the conversation now, or I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave the room now. I'm gonna get out of the car now. There's something about calling your shot, like you're in a game of pool, that says, what I say I'm gonna do,

• 54:50Speaker 05

  I'm going to, to, to do. It's, you know, it's, it's like, it's calling, calling backboard, you know, when you, when you make a shot.

• 54:59Hoda Kotb?

  That's so good. This is good. So I was just, as you were talking, I was just, not that I was, I was thinking about how your life must have changed since all of this has happened to you. Just how weird is it? Like, what is happening with your life now that people probably recognize you and say, huh? Like, what is life like for you?

• 55:22Speaker 05

  Uh, it's, a lot of it's trying to get settled, Hoda. I mean, it is, it is weird. It is, it is weird to, to imagine making videos only in your car for, you know, a year and a half, and not seeing any human. And then, um, you know, it's, it's a whole, it's a whole thing. But I, I've, I've learned that as soon as you get a taste of fame, you gotta spit it out. Like, it's just not, it's, it's, uh, it's not great for, I, I've, I've, I've learned the mistakes of trying to think that you have to say yes to everything, because you never know if it's gonna stop. And like, when is the ride gonna stop? When, um, and at this point, I, I've, I've learned

• 56:04Speaker 05

  how to say no, and find out, here, this is what I've learned, Hoda, is, what I used to do was I would think in my mind that what's best for the business is what's best for the family. And I have learned through pain and hardship, and learned it the hard way, a flip, you have to flip it, of what's best for the family is what's best for the business. And so, trying to figure out this whole world that I'm in, and I know you and I have mutual friends in this space of like, how do you do this? I mean, there's not, I went to law school, where I studied how to be an attorney, and then I'm in this world where I never even thought this was a occupation, or what it existed.

• 56:48Speaker 05

  And so, even if my future self came and warned me, I don't, I wouldn't be able to believe them. Because there's not like a blog that says, hey, your whole life blew up online? Here's what, here's what to do, here's what to do next.

• 57:00Hoda Kotb?

  Right.

• 57:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the biggest thing is, is knowing and telling people of, I, I make plenty of mistakes. Yeah, my thing is not at all, I can't tell you how to be perfect. I, I can, I can tell you how to fix it when it doesn't, because I've done it myself.

• 57:16Hoda Kotb?

  Well, you know what's so interesting? Because when there is any public facing life, or I shouldn't even say public facing. Anyone who's got an all-consuming career, or a busy career life. And this happens, happened to me a lot, which is one of the reasons why I decided to step away when my kids were the age that they are, which is now seven and nine. Is that, from the morning, from the beginning of the day, 3:30 AM, until probably 4:00 PM, when you end up coming home, which is around dinnertime for them, 4:35.

• 57:51Hoda Kotb?

  You've given every ounce of stuff you had away, um, all day.

• 57:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 57:58Hoda Kotb?

  And I was even saying, you know, Ben Sasse was talking about this in one of his interviews, the congressman, he said, I used to think it was like a badge of honor to have a whole bunch of hotel keys to show all the places I've been. I would save them and save them and save them, where he was giving all of his time and effort, which was to work. And I felt the same, to work. And then when you come home, and your kid's like, hey, you're like, hi, you're already barely functioning.

• 58:24Speaker 05

  Right.

• 58:25Hoda Kotb?

  Um, and you got nothing left in the tank. So this doesn't have to do with anyone who's in a, for, uh, uh, you know, a, a job that is public facing or not. It's any job, or anything, when you're out of juice at the end of the day. So what's, what do you do? I guess you just, it's just a matter of just shifting the whole game?

• 58:45Speaker 05

  Yes. I, I, like I said, I learned the hard way. After the book launched last year in March, and the reception, and like, it was just, you know, I, I took time off, uh, last July and August to fix myself. Because anytime you're more public facing, in my view, it boosts all the good, and it also boosts all the bad. And so, whatever was a bad habit then, becomes a much bigger bad, like, everything incrementally is, is harder. The good is really good, and the bad's really bad. And so you have to, you have to be able to learn how to

• 59:25Speaker 05

  manage and, and work on that. Because to me, I, what you said is exactly spot on. That's, it answers the question of, who's, who's getting the best of me? And is it everybody that's online, you know, on social media, or who you're speaking to? Or is it, you know, your family, or your kids, who's getting the best version? Why, why in the world would I ever give my kids the second best version?

• 59:49Hoda Kotb?

  Right.

• 59:50Speaker 05

  Of myself. And so that's,

• 59:51Hoda Kotb?

  So you had to do a realignment?

• 59:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, we had to do a total realignment, yeah.

• 59:57Hoda Kotb?

  And I think anyone can do some. Like, I get it, because I feel like, you know, like, I, I always think this about Olympic athletes. Like, you can't be great at something and be balanced. Simone Biles and Michael Phelps weren't worrying about balance. They were just worrying about being really, really good, and they were. And then, in life, you know, when things start to, then things shift, and you can, you know, now Michael Phelps has other things, and Simone Biles the same. But it's hard to be great and have all the things that you want. And I think sometimes people choose. And I think, you know, many, many times, people will choose the work piece, because the work piece is giving them the money for the vacations, and the work piece is giving them all that stuff.

• 1:00:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, very like cats in the cradle kind of thing. Yeah, I think, I think, um, I, I, I do understand and appreciate how, you know, when you're in the grind, and you, you, you feel like, who am I if I am not this, or what I've always dreamed I could be, or what, and this has been my one ambition? And I forgot who said it, but it was, it was like this study that we're very bad at predicting how we're gonna feel after something. And so, for good or bad. So if we think we're gonna get that Olympic medal, or that promotion, and we get it, we kind of don't feel as good as we thought we would. And then,

• 1:01:23Speaker 05

  also for the bad, when it's like, oh no, this could never happen. If my marriage fails, if, if I ever get fired, that'd be worse. And then it happens, and you're like, this wasn't that bad.

• 1:01:34Hoda Kotb?

  That's actually such, that's so smart.

• 1:01:37Speaker 05

  And so we're all, we're just not good predictors of certain events in our, in our life. And so for me, I have to go,

• 1:01:48Speaker 05

  I could, am I inconveniencing my family for my comfort and my ego? Am I inconveniencing somebody else? Am I putting, you know, there's certain things of like, there might be somebody listening right now and they go, okay, well, I really want to go do this and I feel like I need to ask, you know, put my other person, my partner in the position of like, hey, can I go do this?

• 1:02:11Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:12Speaker 05

  And you know, you're, you, you should have never even put them in that position to have to say yes. Like you should have just chosen the family.

• 1:02:19Hoda Kotb?

  Yes.

• 1:02:20Speaker 05

  And, and that takes, that takes time.

• 1:02:22Hoda Kotb?

  Yes.

• 1:02:22Speaker 05

  And, and diligence. And so I can tell you, um, it's, it's been such a blessing, Hoda, to be able to, to touch the people we've been able to, um, touch. It's, it's just a never ending, uh, feeling.

• 1:02:40Hoda Kotb?

  I am so happy for your success. I'm so happy for all the things that you're creating and you're putting good out in the world. And I always feel like we have one ride around the sun. Might as well put good stuff out into it. I've, I heard you with Thomas Rhett. I love Thomas so much on your, on your podcast. So I encourage everyone to listen to Jefferson's podcast. Um, I heard you on the Diary of a CEO. I saw you with Mel Robbins. I mean, uh, people now after saying this are going to be like, oh my God, I see Jefferson everywhere, just like me. So I, I just want to end with one final question before you head off. Um, this podcast is called Joy 101. So I like to ask all my guests about what is bringing them joy. I know you just got off a bender, a flight from Australia.

• 1:03:24Hoda Kotb?

  So probably sleep would be up there, but, but what's bringing you joy these days?

• 1:03:30Speaker 05

  What's bringing me joy is knowing that my, my kids, it's, it's just my kids, you know, my, my, my, to be able to say no to things and say yes to them and, and my wife. And to, like, we, we did this trip in Australia and I did it so much differently from the time that we traveled and did London. And I was so focused on publicity and press and do, and I just, we did it so differently where I just got to be dad and be present.

• 1:04:03Hoda Kotb?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:03Speaker 05

  And, and my phone is full, Hoda, full of pictures and videos. And it's just the biggest joy that I can't, it's hard for me not to look at one of my kids and just tear up. And that's that feeling of knowing that it could have been different and I could have cared, you know, about a whole different path. But to me, it's just, it's, it's bringing this into a moment of, of so much sheer joy of, of, of peace. It's, it's, it's been, it's been wonderful. And truly I look forward to, to, um, would love to you, for you to be a mentor to me of how, how to, how to, um, deal with this world.

• 1:04:46Hoda Kotb?

  Navigate.

• 1:04:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:47Hoda Kotb?

  Well, you seem to be doing a pretty, pretty good job. Tell Sierra I said hello and your kids too. Okay.

• 1:04:52Speaker 05

  I sure will.

• 1:04:53Hoda Kotb?

  All right. Thank, thank you, Jefferson. I appreciate it.

• 1:04:55Speaker 05

  Thanks, Hoda.

• 1:04:58Hoda Kotb?

  Okay, that was a beautiful conversation. Um, I love Jefferson so much. Uh, I feel like we're friends already.

• 1:05:07Hoda Kotb?

  One thing that I'm kind of learning is how to slow down, how to like not rush through life, how to not rush through important conversations, like Jefferson was saying, just how to slow down and observe. So on our Joy 101 app, you guys, I was listening to this incredible woman who for just two or three minutes showed me how to slow down. Her name is Anna Katsis and she lives in Greece and she works with us at Joy 101. But what she does is she just captures life's small moments. So sit back for a second, take a deep breath first, and let's listen to Anna Katsis.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  This is the story of someone who has learned to notice.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  I used to feel that life moved by too quickly and I realized it was up to me to slow it down, to create time to pause.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  I started by noticing small things, like the way the leaves look when the sunlight hits them, the golden color that washes over when the sun rises, how the birds sound as the world wakes up.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  I started to notice things in my routine, like how much I love starting my day with a warm cup of tea, using herbs from the garden and boiling it in the kettle, adding honey that a beekeeper made not too far from my village, and sipping it slowly while gazing out the window, imagining what the day could hold.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  I noticed how beautiful it is to sit and wash my curtains gently flowing in the breeze, how happy I am to see my cat every day when I open the door to feed him, the way he follows me to his bowl, how calming it is to pet him and just observe what he does, the way he also observes me as I tend to the garden to water it.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  The more I slowed down, the more I noticed and I realized how much beauty lies in everyday life, in the ordinary.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  And so if there's one thing I recommend, it's to take a moment to pause and look around you, because that's when the magic happens.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  That's when the ordinary becomes extraordinary.

• 1:07:59Hoda Kotb?

  Beautiful words of wisdom. Hope you enjoyed. Thank you for listening to Joy 101, the podcast.

• 1:08:16Hoda Kotb?

  I've realized that joy doesn't always come from those big moments. Sometimes you find it on the most ordinary day. I'll pop into a CVS for toothpaste or paper towels and it never seems to be just a quick errand. Maybe I'll grab a delicious Well Market trail mix or wander over to the Joyward collection. That's part of the fun. So the next time you're checking something off your to do list, stop by your local CVS pharmacy. You might go in for one thing and leave with a little more joy. Visit your local CVS pharmacy, sponsored by CVS.

• 1:08:46Speaker 03

  I'm Melissa Jelton, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge.

• 1:09:01Speaker 04

  You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 1:09:06Speaker 03

  And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. On recent episodes of The Questlove Show, I chatted with JoJo about her music and Wallow267 about his story and everything in between. Don't invite me to karaoke. I'm going to make it weird. Someone's going to try to sing Leave It Out or Too Little Too Late or Baby It's You. Oh, no. And I'm going to be like, okay, cool. Check out my conversation with JoJo, Wallow267 and more on The Questlove Show.

• 1:09:46Speaker 03

  Listen to The Questlove Show on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Peace.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Why have so many crop circles appeared around Britain? How did thousands of people demonstrate powers of telepathy? Can the dead suck the life from the living? Join me, Tim Harford, for a trip into the paranormal throughout Halloween month on Cautionary Tales. Listen to Cautionary Tales on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.