KHC 203 - Mike McKnight

Mike McKnight - elite American ultrarunner renowned for his dominance in 200-mile and longer trail races. A multiple-time champion and course-record holder, including victories at the Bigfoot 200, Tahoe 200, Moab 240, Cocodona 250, and Arizona Monster 300. He is widely recognized as one of the sport's top endurance athletes. Follow Mike: https://www.instagram.com/mikejmcknight/ Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Timestamps: 00:00:00 – The Dark McKnight & Winning the 200 Mile Race Triple Crown 00:06:25 – Finding a Love for Multi Day Races 00:13:52 – The Growth of Ultra Running & Grassroots Running Nostalgia 00:19:41 – The Super Bowl of Ultras: Cocodona 00:19:41 – Mike’s favorite Races 00:26:26 – Running at Hayward Track, a Fun Run, & Shooting at The Bow Rack 00:35:38 – Running Cocodona 2026 & it’s Epic Stories 00:49:00 – The Arizona Trail Frustrations & Goals 00:54:00 – Hardships of Being a Race Director 00:57:48 – Trying New Things to Avoid Burnout 00:50:04 – Difficulties of Being a Dad While While Running Races 01:03:09 – Pressure to Perform: Pushing Through the Pain in 200 Mile Races 01:10:40 – Mike’s Goals & FKTs 01:23:05 – Zero Calorie Challenge & Hate Comments 01:25:43 – Training for HYROX 01:30:18 – Shooting a Bow for the First Time 01:34:09 – Hosting Podcasts & Creating Bonds with Guests 01:40:45 – Kilian Korth, Jeff Garmire, Strength & Durability in Running 01:43:52 – Jim Walmsley: Becoming the Best Multi-Day Runner 01:48:03 – Kiss, Marry, Unalive: Taho, Cocodona, Bigfoot 01:51:41 – Is a 100K a Real Ultra Marathon? 01:54:03 – Recovering from a Broken Back & Herniated Disc 01:56:51 – I’ll Prove You Wrong: Race Predictions from Podcasters 02:01:10 – Benefits of BPC 157 & Why it’s Not a PED 02:12:16 – Microdosing: Mushrooms & THC 02:14:16 – Final Thoughts: BPC 157 over Surgery Thank you to our sponsors: LMNT: Visit https://drinklmnt.com/cam for a free sample pack with any purchase Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 10% your order Ketone IQ: https://www.ketone.com/Cam use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription Sig Sauer: https://www.sigsauer.com/ use code CAM10 for 10% off optics MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code CAM for 20% off & Free Shipping Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Cameron Hanes?

  This is the Keep Crammering Collective. Should I say it right? I'm Keep Hammering?

• 0:20Speaker 01

  This isn't Shit Talkers.

• 0:22Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, so I gotta say, this is the Keep Hammering Collective with Mike McKnight. How you doing?

• 0:27Speaker 02

  Great, man.

• 0:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah?

• 0:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, my calves hurt.

• 0:32Cameron Hanes?

  This is Mike, how do you say it? Mike McDarknight? Or what's the nickname go?

• 0:39Speaker 02

  The Dark McKnight.

• 0:40Cameron Hanes?

  The Dark McKnight?

• 0:41Speaker 02

  I didn't make this up.

• 0:42Cameron Hanes?

  Are you sure?

• 0:44Speaker 02

  I think.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  It's in the middle of the 200, I might have.

• 0:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  And forgot about it.

• 0:49Cameron Hanes?

  I think it's cool, so whether you made it up or somebody else, it doesn't matter. I like it.

• 0:53Speaker 02

  Thank you. The Dark McKnight.

• 0:55Cameron Hanes?

  You're like a superhero. So for people who don't know, Mike is the godfather of the 200s, the multi-day legend. So you've won more 200s than anybody, is that right? 200-plus mile races?

• 1:09Speaker 02

  That I'm aware of.

• 1:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  It's something I made up.

• 1:13Cameron Hanes?

  That's okay.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  No one's corrected me yet, so I think I'm right.

• 1:17Cameron Hanes?

  So let's go with it.

• 1:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18Cameron Hanes?

  But bottom line, you're a badass. I remember years ago, and I don't even remember how many years ago, but it was like, I think we're in this house, but you did something, you won something, you did good. I can't remember what it was, and I think I commented. And then somebody, one of your friends, sent me a message and said, "Thanks for like, you hadn't got a lot of like, positive feedback." I think it was right when you were first starting. And he's like, "Oh, thanks for, you know, making that comment to Mike, because, you know, whatever, he's like, such a good runner." But, I don't know, it was like years ago.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  He never told me this.

• 1:56Cameron Hanes?

  I didn't? No, I probably didn't. But I just remember it, that it was probably like, seven or eight years ago. When did you win your first 200?

• 2:05Speaker 02

  Uh, 2019. That was the year I won all of them.

• 2:08Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, maybe it's that, maybe it's that. Maybe I made a comment on that. But anyway, I just remember that.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Well, the funny thing is, I had no idea who you were. Um, I also didn't know who Goggins was.

• 2:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  That was the same year Goggins did Moab and then he got the um, Hape.

• 2:26Cameron Hanes?

  Oh yeah, he did. And then he came back out to the course to finish, right?

• 2:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. That was all that same year.

• 2:32Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  So I didn't know you. I didn't know Goggins. Like, one of my friends is like, dude, you get a race with the Goggins. Is that cool? I was like, who's Goggins? So I looked him up and then you, you made a comment after I won Moab, the third race.

• 2:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's what it was.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Like, who's this guy?

• 2:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  I started following you.

• 2:49Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  But I never knew that you received a message from one of my friends.

• 2:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, somebody said that, like, that was cool just to, to weigh in on it and, you know, give you props or whatever, which I just always do that. But I hadn't, I think I knew of you, but I think just winning, because um, I did Moab, was that 2017? Did you do that?

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Courtney won.

• 3:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and you did it that year too. Yeah. So I knew I knew of you. And then somebody, I think you got third, right? Did you?

• 3:17Speaker 02

  That year, yeah.

• 3:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:18Cameron Hanes?

  Who got second? I remember.

• 3:20Speaker 02

  Sean Nakamura.

• 3:22Cameron Hanes?

  That's right. That's right. Okay, so I remember that whole field. And uh, so I knew of you, but since then, yeah, you've just been badass, dude.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  I mean, it all just kind of randomly happened.

• 3:35Cameron Hanes?

  How? How, how do you randomly win three 200 mile races in a year?

• 3:40Speaker 02

  Um, I mean, you and I talked about this, was it yesterday at breakfast?

• 3:44Cameron Hanes?

  I know, we've, you've been here a long time.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  I know, forever.

• 3:48Cameron Hanes?

  You live here now.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  I know. Yeah. Well, yeah, this is my house.

• 3:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Um, but no, the, the better I do, the, I do better when I don't plan.

• 3:58Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  And so like 2017, I did the Triple Crown. That was the year you did Moab. And like, I used to be a textbook spreadsheet kind of a guy. And then like, if I came into an aid station five minutes behind my plan, I started like getting pissed and self sabotage and.

• 4:14Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so um, I realized I just need to stop having a plan.

• 4:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  And so I wanted to do the Triple Crown again in 2019 without a plan, just to see how much better I could do. And then just, you know, I won Bigfoot. I was like, oh wow, that was cool. That was my first real big race that I've ever won.

• 4:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  And then I won Tahoe. And then, you know, Moab, I was like, okay, if I've won two of them, I have to try to win the third.

• 4:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 4:39Speaker 02

  But I mean, I seriously had no plans to win all of them that year. I just wanted to see what I could do after getting experience from 2017.

• 4:46Cameron Hanes?

  From the year before.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:48Cameron Hanes?

  And having a third place finish, which is like a good, that's like a good sign, like, hey, maybe I could be good at this.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Especially the third race out of the three.

• 4:56Cameron Hanes?

  How did you do in the other two?

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Terrible. Well, I mean, if it was today, it would have been terrible. Like back then, there was like, like I, I got 69 hours at Bigfoot or something like that.

• 5:10Cameron Hanes?

  Don't be saying terrible because that's faster than me. So if that's terrible, I'm, what am I?

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Not winning material.

• 5:18Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Well, I guess that was kind of an insult.

• 5:21Cameron Hanes?

  Hey, it's true, though.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Not winning times.

• 5:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause like 69 hours today would be like, you'd be lucky to get top 20.

• 5:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, 10th or something. People are cruising.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I think I got like fifth or something.

• 5:34Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  And so like, and I mean, the first time at Bigfoot, I puked for the first hundred miles.

• 5:40Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  So it was terrible.

• 5:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  And then I rallied and I came back and then Tahoe, I had shin splints and I T-band pain for most of it, walked probably, I actually dropped Tahoe that year.

• 5:51Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Um, I don't know if Candace still, well, she does do this because Mika's done this before.

• 5:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Like I dropped and then I came, I didn't leave, but they gave me my bid back.

• 6:01Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  I was like, I'm not going to drop. I can walk this thing. So I got my bid back and I walked it in. And then Moab, I got a stress fracture at like mile 200 and had to walk the last 40 miles. So everything went wrong.

• 6:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that year.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Like, I can't believe I got third place that year. Cause yeah, I, I walked, I mean, it was only 40 miles, I guess. But yeah, a lot of stuff went wrong.

• 6:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it sounds like it.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:24Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I mean, what was the impetus to get into like the multi-day races? What, why did you, why'd you want to do them to begin with?

• 6:33Speaker 02

  Just to try it.

• 6:34Cameron Hanes?

  Just a test.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:35Cameron Hanes?

  And did you know somebody who's doing them?

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Um, have you heard the name DJ Lorchester? He's a Utah guy.

• 6:42Cameron Hanes?

  No, but it sounded like, uh, he sounds like a, like a king or something like.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Lorchester.

• 6:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:52Cameron Hanes?

  Like, so is he a royal family or anything?

• 6:54Speaker 02

  I have no idea. I met him at a race.

• 6:56Cameron Hanes?

  Anyway, no, I don't know him.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  He's friends with Ben Light, too.

• 6:59Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, I know Ben.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, so I met him at Zion 100 in 2016 or something like that. And, um, we're both Utah guys and I finished faster than him. And then I saw that he was doing the double crown, which, I mean, cause Moab, the first year Moab came out was 2017.

• 7:18Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  So it used to just be Bigfoot Tahoe, the double crown. He did that, I'm pretty sure in 2016 and he won the double crown. And I remember following him and I was like, wait a minute, I, I'm faster than him.

• 7:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  So if he could win that, maybe I could win that and I'd like to win something. I haven't won anything at this point.

• 7:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  So I was getting ready to sign up for the double crown and then Candace announced Moab just before I was about to do that. And for some reason I was like, two 200s seems doable, but three 200s does not seem doable.

• 7:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  So I was just planning on doing Bigfoot again, just because I wanted to, I mean, all this do this is to see if we could, what we can do.

• 7:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  So I've done plenty of hundreds. Let's see if I can do a 200.

• 7:58Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  And then I did Bigfoot, but back then, like, you know, Candace has wait lists for her races are so popular. But back then they weren't. And so like I did Bigfoot and then I was able to sign up for the, the triple, I changed my mind.

• 8:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  And I was able to sign up for the triple crown after Bigfoot, but I guess it all just came because I wanted to see what I could do. And then I wanted to see if I could win something because DJ won it.

• 8:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Before.

• 8:23Cameron Hanes?

  No, that's cool. Uh, how, how were you doing in the hundreds?

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Um, I was finishing top 10.

• 8:31Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Nothing like, I never won, I never podiumed, but. Um, I mean, I didn't win.

• 8:37Cameron Hanes?

  You're doing pretty good, though.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:38Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, competitive.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Well, they were local races.

• 8:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Like at Western States, I probably would have been like top 100.

• 8:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's, it, man, the sports changed, hasn't it?

• 8:49Speaker 02

  So much.

• 8:50Cameron Hanes?

  Even, even just in that time. So that's not even 10 years.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:54Cameron Hanes?

  And now you can't, it's hard to get in these big races. They're sold out like in a day.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 9:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So it's, it's crazy how it's, it's went from, I would say, kind of grassroots a little bit to, and it's not quite mainstream, but it's heading that way. You know, it's.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, Rachel got it on ESPN a couple of months ago.

• 9:15Cameron Hanes?

  I think in Good Morning America or something.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, something like that, too.

• 9:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  But no, it's grown a lot. It's very different than when I first started.

• 9:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And now there's, you know, sponsors, you have sponsors, everybody's like being kind of like a pro athlete. It's like, we were talking about this too, because I, I feel like it is really hard for somebody with a job, which back in the day, you could have a job like you did and still compete, still win. Nowadays, it, I think it's getting, it's not impossible, but very hard to compete with these full-time pros if you have a full-time job.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I would say that if you are going to compete, you can't have a family. Because, I mean, if you're working nine to five and you have kids and a wife, you're giving up time with them, too.

• 10:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  I mean, if you're single and have a full-time job, you just have to be diligent and give up like a social life.

• 10:06Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  But yeah, it's, and I'm sure it depends on the job, too. Like, if you're out working construction all day, it's going to be hard to go train after that.

• 10:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I guess, because there's that, um, that one ER doctor who won Leadville. So she obviously works.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. I, I don't know who that is.

• 10:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So she won Leadville, like.

• 10:27Cameron Hanes?

  Anne Flowers is her name and she's an ER doctor and one lead bill. So there are some amazing people out there who somehow can get it done, but I think by and large it's going to be really tough. It's like you almost have to, and that's a hundred miler, which I want to talk about this too, but and we spoke about it, but it feels like to me, there's a marathon, you can be really good at a marathon, then there's a 50K, then there's a fat fast hundred, then there's a mountain hundred, and then there's multi-day and those, all those are basically different races, in my opinion. And if you're a good marathoner, you might be a terrible multi-day person. And you may be way faster than any person ever in a multi-day,

• 11:11Cameron Hanes?

  and you might not even be able to finish a race. It's just, it's crazy how much it's, so I think to, I was, what I was leading up to is, so Anne won a pretty fast hundred, which might take less training than trying to get your legs up for like a multi-day 200. So maybe she can get away with a little less and she's like super talented, but that's rare. That's amazing.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then you could also like argue, like what are her hours? Like is she working through the night? Does she have a weird schedule? Because she might thrive at a multi-day event.

• 11:46Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know, maybe.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Because I mean, the sleep depth, it might like, aside from like some random like weekend where I might do like a 20 on a Friday and a 30 to 35 on a Saturday, like, at least in my experience, the training for 100 miles is not drastically different than training for 200 miles. It's getting used to the sleep deprivation, and then it's just like the, the volume, the back-to-back stuff. So.

• 12:14Cameron Hanes?

  Dead leg miles, basically.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the miles you don't really want to do.

• 12:19Cameron Hanes?

  You'd want to do anything other than get more miles. Get out there.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  She might, I mean, if she has a weird sleep schedule and, I mean, she might just need to throw in one more long run, and she might be fine. You never know.

• 12:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I, I had kind of like moved past. Had decided that nobody can compete until I started saying that story right now. And then I thought of her and I'm like, okay, well, there goes my whole theory.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Well, Jesse Haynes, you know him?

• 12:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  He's and that goes against what I said too, because he's a construction worker.

• 12:51Cameron Hanes?

  There are, there are some outliers.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  And he won Moab a few years ago.

• 12:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I think right before Max won.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  So we just both ate our own words.

• 13:00Cameron Hanes?

  I, I mean, there's always exceptions, but just by and large, I just think it's getting very tough for somebody with a full time job to compete at the top of the field nowadays, because it takes, like, if you look at, you know, what I always want to do is like 20,000 feet of a week of gain, 100 miles, of course, some people do way more, some people do less. And, you know, that's usually like over 20 hours of training.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:27Cameron Hanes?

  And then if you're just training with that much climbing, your body needs to recover. So you need massage, cold plunge, sauna, recovery, sleep. How do you do all that? That's, that's a long, lot of time.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  It's like 30 hours there.

• 13:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, for sure 30. So to work full time on top of that, nuts.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's 80 hours.

• 13:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:49Cameron Hanes?

  That's hard, but, uh, I don't know. It's just, what do you, what are your thoughts on like where the sport's going and like what it looks like compared to when you started? Are you, are you pumped with how it is now or what?

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Uh, it's mixed.

• 14:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  I mean, the way I describe it is like, like I have a wife and two kids and I love my life right now. But every now and then we, so we live two miles from the high school I went to. And from what I understand, not everybody had this experience, but I had a great high school experience, great friends. We had fun all the time. And so every now and then, when I drive by my high school, a memory pops up and I'm like, man, yeah, I miss, I miss high school. I would love to be back there.

• 14:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  But I'm not saying that I hate my wife and kids and I want to give that all up, you know?

• 14:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  So I have these like times where I'll reminisce and want something different. And it's the same with this.

• 14:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Like, it's really cool to see how big it's gotten this, like, meeting you, meeting Courtney, meeting Killian Corrath. It's cool seeing all these new amazing people come in, getting to meet them and seeing what they're doing. But there are moments where I'm like, man, I miss signing up the night before.

• 15:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  Getting fourth place because no one else showed up.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  So I do miss the grassroots vibe. And I mean, I guess you can still get races where they have that. Like, that's nice about little local races. Like, you can still have that. But overall, I'm happy with where it's going because it provides more opportunities for people that want to do something with it.

• 15:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and I think, you know, because we talked about what it requires with the training and recovery, to see what people are truly capable of, it's you almost need to be a full-time pro, you know, to get to get the most out of yourself and to to put the most into the sport, just so we could, that's how we all get better. But I do miss, I mean, there was, there's a phase, and I think maybe Ben even did it, but like, remember, like, just wearing the button up, Western type shirts, right?

• 15:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:52Cameron Hanes?

  And I, that, and Taylor was doing that. And then, like, so now I see all these, like, everybody's got this kit, right? They're all pros. So now I went back and I just like cut it, now I just wear old shirts like that.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  You did that at Coconona.

• 16:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm anti, I'm not good anyway, but I'll be anti-pro, and just be like, the old grassroots guy. So.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  That's fun.

• 16:16Cameron Hanes?

  It is fun.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  I wish we could pull up a picture of how Ben used to dress.

• 16:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Like, he had on the full-length compression sock.

• 16:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  He had the Ironman half-tight.

• 16:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  A flannel button shirt. And he also had this huge, full-brimmed hat.

• 16:33Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, sun hat.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Like, but huge.

• 16:35Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  Like, he's going out fishing. Like, his style was very awesome.

• 16:40Cameron Hanes?

  Did he have any fishing lures in the hat?

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Probably not.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  I do miss that. That was a fun era, all those flannel shirts.

• 16:48Cameron Hanes?

  Well, and then there was like, the Anton, I think he goes by Tony, I don't really, I don't know him, but no shirt. You know, he looked like running Jesus out there, basically.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Super long hair.

• 16:58Cameron Hanes?

  Big beard, long hair. And he was getting, I think he was getting like 200 miles a weekend. Didn't he do like crazy miles?

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, a ton.

• 17:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  And he won Western State. Well, I don't know if he did that, I don't know if he won Western, but he's won a lot of races.

• 17:12Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, Hard Rock, I'm sure.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't remember. It's been a while since I like looked at what he did.

• 17:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, he hasn't ran for a little bit. He's been like cycling and stuff.

• 17:22Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  But no, and he even like inspired a lot of people to look like him.

• 17:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Like you see some people out running a race and like, is that Anton? It's, I don't know. It's some dude that looks like Anton.

• 17:31Cameron Hanes?

  Little tiny shorts.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, tiny shorts, long hair, barefoot shoes.

• 17:36Cameron Hanes?

  I know. And just crushing it.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:39Cameron Hanes?

  It was so cool. I mean, when I think of mountain people, I like that.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Same.

• 17:43Cameron Hanes?

  I like that just that, I don't want to say vibe, because that's like nowadays, but I just like that, whatever that was, that look or that attitude, kind of, just free spirit.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, like Carl Meltzer too.

• 17:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  He still has that.

• 17:57Cameron Hanes?

  Well, and Jeff Browning kind of was like that too. He's like, now he's sort of a pro now. He's kind of changed with the times, basically. But he seemed like he was like that too. Just loved to be out in the mountains.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  And I mean, you don't see him like changing either. Like he, he has like a nice kit and stuff, but like it's still got like a grassroots vibe to it.

• 18:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Like a shirt with like, he cut the sleeves off himself. Like, yeah.

• 18:21Cameron Hanes?

  And he likes to lift. We lifted over here.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  He's great at lifting.

• 18:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's a stud.

• 18:26Cameron Hanes?

  He's one of my favorites, dude. Jeff Browning. I mean, Bronco, isn't he like a legend?

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's been my coach for like seven years.

• 18:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  And I mean, if he's listening to this, he knows that I vary from his plan for me quite often. But I just love having him there to talk and like, like I texted him this morning. I was like, hey, I didn't do really any kind of vert this week. And my wife's doing a bike race tomorrow. I kind of want to do that. Like, do you think it's going to mess me up if I, so it's great to have him there for questions. He knows so much.

• 18:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Like for anybody that's talked to him and you could see it with your podcast, like he, he can take like a two second answer and spit out five minutes of information.

• 19:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Like he's very knowledgeable.

• 19:09Cameron Hanes?

  Well, he loves it. I mean, he loves all of this stuff. The, the science to the, or the training and the shoes and the gear and all of it.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Everything.

• 19:18Cameron Hanes?

  And so I can see why you just want to, as a coach. Or him as your coach, it's fun just to talk to in like you absorb that type of energy and you're better.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:28Cameron Hanes?

  Like his energy makes me better.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 19:30Cameron Hanes?

  Running with them. It's just like, I feel, you know, like I'm a better runner because I'm just around somebody that's having fun.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 19:37Cameron Hanes?

  And you know, it's positive. Oh yeah. We, we had a great time too, but uh, yeah, I just like, for some reason, I don't know why. I just like to reminisce on the old, old days.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  Same.

• 19:49Cameron Hanes?

  I, I like where it's at. I mean, Coca dona right now is, it's like the, it's like the Superbowl. I mean, it, everybody's got film crews. It's like.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  It's only been around five years too.

• 20:00Cameron Hanes?

  I think six. I think this was a sixth year.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  I guess that math made sense. Twenty one to twenty six. Yeah.

• 20:06Cameron Hanes?

  I thought I heard somebody say that.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Twenty one, twenty two. Yeah, you're right. I need to use my fingers.

• 20:12Cameron Hanes?

  But, but the fact is, it's like, in six years, this went from whatever it was where you could probably sign up, you know, I remember Taylor did it the first year. What year you won it where you were way back?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Twenty three.

• 20:25Cameron Hanes?

  Twenty three.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Twenty one was the first year.

• 20:27Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:29Cameron Hanes?

  Um, and now it's just like crazy.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  A waitlist.

• 20:32Cameron Hanes?

  Crazy. And the live.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Thousand people on it.

• 20:36Cameron Hanes?

  And the race cost, what? Two thousand bucks?

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:39Cameron Hanes?

  I mean,

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Oh yeah.

• 20:42Cameron Hanes?

  It's not like it's just, you know, you just sign up and go because, okay, and think about this too. If you're a pro.

• 20:51Cameron Hanes?

  So it's two thousand dollars for the race, but then you're flying there. Then your crew got to get there. Then you got to rent a van. Then you got to, it's like.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Some people are hiring crew too.

• 21:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  We were talking about that.

• 21:02Cameron Hanes?

  Right. It's probably, people are spending ten to twenty thousand to do this race.

• 21:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. I know. And they're coming back to do it too. Like I, I, I coached.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Thirteen people at Coca Dona, or it's like sister races this year, Sedona, like,

• 21:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  But like, most of those people have done it already, and a handful of them are doing it again next year because it's a lottery. But like, people just keep, like, I've been there every year. Like, Garmar has been there every year. I know a couple people that's been there every year. Like, people love the vibe of that race. It's fun.

• 21:40Cameron Hanes?

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• 22:21Cameron Hanes?

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• 23:05Cameron Hanes?

  250th birthday, BRCC has proudly celebrated America, her military, her values, and the people that make this country great every single day. This summer, you can celebrate all day, every day with their new ready-to-drink cold brew coffee cans in just black and vanilla. Cold, bold, smooth. And ready when you need it most. And if you need even more kick on your way out the door, check out their new bomb pop inspired energy drink Tiger Strike. Zero sugar, 200 milligrams of caffeine, the kind of fuel and flavor built for long days and people who celebrate America, not just on the Fourth of July, but every day of the year. Find Black Rifle Coffee cold brew cans or Tiger Strike now at Walmart or your local grocery store,

• 23:50Cameron Hanes?

  Black Rifle Coffee Shop, or online at blackriflecoffee.com. Veteran founded, American roasted. This is America's coffee.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  For the scenery Tahoe, but for the vibe Coca Dona.

• 24:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  I will say though, my experience of Tahoe this year might have lowered that on the list a little bit for me.

• 24:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  With all those downed trees.

• 24:13Cameron Hanes?

  Hit your head.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Well, that, yeah, that sucked too.

• 24:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  No, like Tahoe is so beautiful. I've seen the lake 90% of the time when you're up on those ridges. So scenery Tahoe, but definitely the vibe of Coca Dona is hard to walk away from.

• 24:29Cameron Hanes?

  It's so fun. That start line and everybody, I mean, every, like this year, everyone was there.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Oh, a hundred percent.

• 24:35Cameron Hanes?

  It seemed like, I thought last year was competitive, like with big names. I think this year was even more competitive.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  And I'm sure it's going to get more competitive. Well, I guess I haven't, I guess they have the entrance list out. I don't know who's doing it this year or next year, I guess.

• 24:48Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  I'm sure it's going to get more competitive every year.

• 24:52Cameron Hanes?

  Are you in it?

• 24:53Speaker 02

  No.

• 24:54Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  But I was told if I wanted to.

• 24:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  And I, I don't know if this is going to make people hate.

• 25:02Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  The RD for saying this.

• 25:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  I'm sure they know that like they have spots for.

• 25:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  People, but they, they.

• 25:10Cameron Hanes?

  People complain about anything, dude. It's like, oh, you want a free entry? Why don't you get better at running?

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Well, no, no, no, it's not a free entry.

• 25:16Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, it's not?

• 25:17Speaker 02

  Like I paid for this last year.

• 25:19Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  It's just.

• 25:19Cameron Hanes?

  It's just a spot.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  To skip the lottery.

• 25:21Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I got you. Okay.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  So.

• 25:23Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. You want to skip the lottery? Get better at running. How about that?

• 25:27Speaker 02

  I'm not going to say that.

• 25:28Cameron Hanes?

  I'll say it. I say a lot of stupid shit on here.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  But no, I mean, I'm not signed up right now, but I I get a feeling that I'm gonna change. Do you need me to open that for you?

• 25:39Cameron Hanes?

  My, my, my broken thumb is not letting me do it. Oh, look at that.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  That's so easy.

• 25:45Cameron Hanes?

  See this? He is jacked, jacked and can run far. Thank you.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  You're welcome.

• 25:51Cameron Hanes?

  You can have one if you want.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  I just had one before I got here. Is it bad to overdose on these things?

• 25:56Cameron Hanes?

  You don't want to OD. You might get too smart.

• 26:00Cameron Hanes?

  I need like 10 of those just to get up to average IQ. And I've never taken 10, so I've never been up there.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Well, this is a type of alcohol, isn't it? So isn't it going through your liver?

• 26:11Cameron Hanes?

  I haven't, I don't, is it alcohol? I don't know.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  I mean, oh, there's something that I think is alcohol, so it's going through your liver.

• 26:19Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know.

• 26:21Speaker 02

  I mean, anyway, but no, I might have one later.

• 26:24Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Well, so, uh, tell me about your, how is the visit been?

• 26:30Speaker 02

  This has been, so.

• 26:31Cameron Hanes?

  Tell me about it. We did a lot.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  A lot.

• 26:33Cameron Hanes?

  And, and we didn't really plan, I don't know, we didn't plan on, I didn't really have a plan. Just get you here and I'll just be like, we'll figure it out.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  And even part of the plan, you left out some big details, in my opinion. That or I wasn't paying attention and you told me the details and I just blocked it out.

• 26:48Cameron Hanes?

  I doubt it.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  About last night specifically, at the Hayward.

• 26:52Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah. What was that?

• 26:54Speaker 02

  So I mean, so this, so I was supposed to be gone yesterday.

• 26:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I know. Oh, that's right. Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:00Cameron Hanes?

  We did change that.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. So Cam invited me to stay another day. Um, and part of that was, from what I remember, I kind of want to pull the text out to see if I'm exaggerating this. But he's like, hey, how, do you want to try to race a mile with me? I was like, what are you talking about? And he's like, um, someone's just gonna help pace me to see how fast I can run a mile. I want to go under five.

• 27:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  I was like, okay, cool. That sounds fun. I don't do track workouts, but I'd love that.

• 27:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Um, and then we get there last night and like, we have to pay to get in. I see spectators walking through. We walk in and it's like a legit, well, I mean, it's not like a legit race. I don't know. It was some kind of race. We were given a bib.

• 27:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  And there was heat. And instead of just what I in my head thought was me and Cam.

• 27:44Cameron Hanes?

  At a high, at a high school.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  At a high school. Trying to run a mile together to see if we could break five, turned into like other racers, so.

• 27:53Cameron Hanes?

  And Mike Lardina.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Wardian.

• 27:56Cameron Hanes?

  Wardian, yeah.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, Mike Wardian was there.

• 27:59Cameron Hanes?

  Who's a legend.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, Jen, your friend.

• 28:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, Jen Hayward.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Jen Hayward. And a bunch of fast high school kids.

• 28:07Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, so and they they basically say, okay, who's going for under five minute mile? And then you walk up there and there's like all these kids.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 28:17Cameron Hanes?

  And just and us, old guys.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 28:19Cameron Hanes?

  We're like, wow.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:20Cameron Hanes?

  Well, this is gonna be fun. But yeah, so go ahead.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  So, yeah, so I mean, yeah, that was that was quite the experience.

• 28:27Cameron Hanes?

  And it was at Hayward, which is where the Olympic trials are. So it wasn't a high school track.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  No, no, and people were spectating.

• 28:34Cameron Hanes?

  I know, I know.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  So, yeah, no, it was fun. I mean, we did that, which is good because I've never done or I haven't done that for like 14 years.

• 28:42Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  So it's fun to just see what I could do at a mile. And then, so I guess rewind the day before I get here at like 12:30. And you know, you're like, I'll pick you up at one. We're gonna go for a nice, easy, fun run.

• 28:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Word for word.

• 28:57Cameron Hanes?

  It was fun, wasn't it?

• 28:58Speaker 02

  It was fun. In my head, I was like, we're gonna do a 10K.

• 29:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  So I threw on my waist belt and like one bottle of water, which I guess is more than you because you had no water.

• 29:10Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  And we end up doing like a 15 mile, what felt like a sprint at times. Up a few different mountains. I forget the name of where we started.

• 29:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, Glen Heights, Blanton Heights.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Blanton, I was way off.

• 29:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  And then to Spencer's, then to.

• 29:27Cameron Hanes?

  Piscata, yeah.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Um, there was one part, I looked at my watch and it said like 450.

• 29:35Cameron Hanes?

  We were running hard sometimes.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  So, um, that did not feel like a little easy fun. Well, it's fun.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  It was a different fun run than what I thought it would be.

• 29:46Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:48Cameron Hanes?

  That was, and it was hot, too.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  So hot. I was drenched.

• 29:53Cameron Hanes?

  I was like thinking, I wish I would have brought a bottle.

• 29:57Cameron Hanes?

  Cause I got dried, which I think hurt us in our fast mile yesterday. We probably got so dried out.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I probably could have done a, I don't know. I don't know what I could have done. I could have done faster.

• 30:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure. We did not optimize.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  No. We didn't eat anything.

• 30:15Cameron Hanes?

  No, we did.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  I didn't.

• 30:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So we didn't taper for a fast mile. We didn't, we got completely depleted and dried out. And yeah, so it was perfect.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was great. It was fun. The rope swing was great. We roped swinging into the river towards, so um, the funny thing was, is there was like, how long is that road section approaching Pisgah?

• 30:36Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, a couple of miles.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:39Cameron Hanes?

  Probably three miles, yeah.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Cam's doing like six twenty pace and I'm, I'm fading. And he would do this mind trick with me. I realize now where he like, oh crap, I'm going too fast. Sorry. Then he slowed down next to me. And then I'd start running with him and then a minute or two later, look at my watch and we're holding that pace that he said was too fast.

• 31:00Cameron Hanes?

  The trick was like, hopefully, most people think, okay, we slowed down, but we didn't slow down.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. My, my problem was I'd look at my watch.

• 31:09Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Cause I was fine until I looked at my watch. I was like, we're going the same freaking pace.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  So yeah, he is burning me and I see this beautiful river. And I did need to cool off. I had a headache.

• 31:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it was hot.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was really hot. But I, I did also just like say, hey, I need to dip off because I'm hot, but I also just needed to slow down. So yeah, that was a good experience. This was, this was fun.

• 31:33Cameron Hanes?

  That we did, uh, um, we went off the rope and I, all I remember is like, there's a couple of girls there that were jumping in and I talked one of them into trying a dive. And she's like, I'm going to belly flop. I'm like, it's still good content. Cause they were filming, her friends were filming. And so she did try to dive and did belly flop.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  It was hard.

• 31:54Cameron Hanes?

  It was like, oops, but uh, man, that felt good.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I've watched that video a couple of times and I still can't figure out how you swung into a dive.

• 32:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's hard.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  It's impressive.

• 32:06Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I used to, I did so many crazy things back in the day. Like, that was my thing. Like, I'd do flips off bridges. I'd pull my truck up to a bridge and do a flip off of it, just into.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  But that would make kind of sense. You have a level surface area, you're on your feet.

• 32:22Cameron Hanes?

  Right, right.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  But you, you use your arms and body to somehow do a dive off of a rope swing.

• 32:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how you do it.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  You just do it?

• 32:31Cameron Hanes?

  Just do it.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:33Cameron Hanes?

  Well, yeah, I didn't do it like the girl did it. So I didn't land on my belly that bad. But uh, yeah, so that was good. Then we, we hit, got another summit in, so we did Pisk after we did the river. Um, I saw people going, oh, you did two more miles with wet shoes. It's just like, that is the least of our concerns.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  No, do a 200.

• 32:53Cameron Hanes?

  I was like, if, if you're worried about wet shoes.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:57Cameron Hanes?

  For a couple of miles, you're never gonna do a multi-day race.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  Never.

• 33:02Cameron Hanes?

  But you can't say that.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  No, but it's true. I mean, me and a friend went running last week and we had a few river crossings and I just went through it. And I'd stop and watch him and he would like, take two minutes like trying to find these rocks that was just, get your feet wet.

• 33:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  He's like, I don't like that. And he's done a 200.

• 33:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  And I, word for word, I was like, you, you need to do more 200 if you're worried about your feet getting wet. Yeah.

• 33:26Cameron Hanes?

  I like, I look for reasons to do that, to make my feet tougher. You know what I mean?

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:32Cameron Hanes?

  Like, that running with the wet shoes, I don't, didn't even think about it, but it only helps us when we get ready to do a race.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you get more comfortable with it or.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  I want to say I'm trying to make my feet tougher, but like.

• 33:44Cameron Hanes?

  I wish I, that's my goal, but it doesn't work.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  No, the feet are hard to toughen up.

• 33:50Cameron Hanes?

  They are.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  But I mean, like, the benefits of it usually outweigh the negatives, in my opinion. Cause like in Tahoe, this year it was hot. And I was just struggling, like, oh, I was, I was having leg issues again from Coca Dona and the monster. And so like every little cool pool of water I would see, I would walk into it and kneel down for a minute and like ice my legs. And so like, in my opinion, like the, the feeling that I got getting out of that water, like loosening my legs up. Like, whatever, whatever happens to my feet, I don't care. I can deal with that. Like, I can run faster with looser muscles.

• 34:24Cameron Hanes?

  And cold water does help that. I mean, it does kind of reset your muscles a little bit, it feels like, or like we convince ourselves that helps.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, Aaron Cabala, who won Tahoe, I coached him and he, he told me at least once that his quads were shot. And he was, he got into the river and knelt in it for a minute or two. And then after that, he felt fine for however many miles.

• 34:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, it definitely makes a difference. I, I go lay in the river sometimes when I do that run and when I have to run. If I go do the run we did and I go from Piska home, that's 26 miles.

• 34:58Speaker 02

  Oh, from Piska to your house?

• 35:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So if I do that whole thing we did, but just go all the way home. So sometimes if I go to Piska, then I'll go in the river first and then run home.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 35:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It kind of breaks it up.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Is that, is there more trail or do you have to?

• 35:10Cameron Hanes?

  No, it's on the road. Yeah. It's pretty much on the road all the way from Piska.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  I'm glad we didn't do that.

• 35:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Now it sucks, dude. It's just like car, cars are close and just not fun. But what we did is what my, kind of my go to. I love doing that run.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  No, that was perfect.

• 35:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. You get some climbing. I think you said, what did we get? 3,000 feet?

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:31Cameron Hanes?

  And then 15 miles. So it's a good day.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, road, road, trails.

• 35:36Cameron Hanes?

  Fast miles on there.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Couple hiking spots.

• 35:39Cameron Hanes?

  So this year you won Arizona Monster 300 and top 10 at Coca Dona. That's good.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Well, top, top 10 mil.

• 35:49Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  I think I was like 12th or 13th overall.

• 35:52Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, gotcha. So are you, are you satisfied with those results? Obviously the win you're happy with.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  Oh, very much.

• 36:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a huge one.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Especially because I was supposed to get surgery, like, when was that? Two months before that race?

• 36:08Cameron Hanes?

  Ah, that's crazy.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  So I didn't even think I'd be doing much this year.

• 36:11Cameron Hanes?

  Because of your back?

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, back surgery.

• 36:13Cameron Hanes?

  So what, what happened there?

• 36:14Speaker 02

  Uh, herniated a disc, slipping in some laundry detergent.

• 36:18Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man, that's.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Nothing epic at all.

• 36:21Cameron Hanes?

  Not cool.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  No.

• 36:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, at least you want to have a good story to go with it.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Nope, slipped in laundry detergent.

• 36:27Cameron Hanes?

  Well, you voided surgery.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  Voided surgery, so you know, to win and set the record, the monster, um, with that was pretty exciting.

• 36:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Um, I mean, I, I expect more of myself, so I'm slightly disappointed with Cogadona. But with how competitive it was, I mean, to get top 10 male, especially like, you know, there's podcasts like, it was like predicting top 10 males and females and I think the only one that I was in for the top 10 was the Next Aid Station podcast. Everybody else wrote me off because of the monster. So that was like a small win to like crack the top 10 for males, even when people were saying I couldn't do it.

• 37:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, they're thinking you'd be too fatigued, too close to Arizona, basically.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Fatigued and then just like, you know, rightfully so, like I haven't done well at that race when it's competitive.

• 37:18Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  And so like, just with my history of like, um, I, I've won it once, but for, from a competitive standpoint, like, I think people are thinking I can't win that race when there's high competition. So I think it was those two factors.

• 37:32Cameron Hanes?

  I think, uh, I think, yeah, I mean, you ran a 520 mile yesterday. I think that's fast. And, and with, and that wasn't even optimized as we said, so you have speed. And obviously you have durability and you're, you're very mentally tough. I don't know. I think, it feels like you could compete with anyone, anywhere.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  I mean, I think I can do it, but I, I had a wake up call. I can't do it. Three, four weeks after running 300 miles.

• 38:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Like, that has to be an A race if you want to win Cogadona.

• 38:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Oh, for sure. No. I mean, to be top 10, that's, I think that's almost about as, as good as you could expect. That close to a 300 mile race to be top 10.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:13Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I don't think it's realistic to, to think you're going to win them both. But yeah, if you, if you just said that was your A race, then who knows?

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:21Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah, um, how did?

• 38:24Cameron Hanes?

  We ran together a little bit at Kokadonna, didn't we at the beginning?

• 38:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I it would have been shorter. I I tried to keep it up with you for a little bit. But yeah, I think we ran like a mile or two. It wasn't too long on the climb up to Lane Mountain.

• 38:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that kind of a grind right there.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that whole climb is so long.

• 38:44Cameron Hanes?

  That first up into Crown King, or I guess it's kind of downhill on the Crown King, but for most of it is a climb.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Um, to Lane Mountain.

• 38:54Cameron Hanes?

  The very end is down. Yeah, that Lane Mountain climb. Oh.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  So long.

• 38:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Hot. This year wasn't. Well, this year was weird. I don't know if you felt this way, like, like the sun wasn't out that much.

• 39:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  But like, I was drenched. I sweated way more on that climb than I have in the past.

• 39:11Cameron Hanes?

  More humid, probably.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 39:13Cameron Hanes?

  Because of the clouds.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  So it felt hot hotter than I thought it would be.

• 39:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  But yeah.

• 39:19Cameron Hanes?

  But you battled back and, you know, you're struggling. You said your legs were dead. I remember you saying that when we were running. And, uh, we were hoping they're gonna wake up. And it's like, this is crazy. Like normally you'd start a race and if your legs are dead, they're just dead. But when the race is a three day race, they might come back.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:39Cameron Hanes?

  So you just keep going and you find out, but.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  And they did come back. It just, I mean, I almost dropped.

• 39:45Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 39:45Speaker 02

  I got to, um, Whiskey Row and I probably stayed there for two hours.

• 39:50Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay. I didn't know that.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I was, I was struggling mentally because like I wanted to drop, but I didn't want to.

• 39:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Um, I was like, I gotta finish this thing, but my legs are so dead.

• 40:01Cameron Hanes?

  And Whiskey Rose only seventy something in?

• 40:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, you still have a hundred and eighty miles to go.

• 40:09Cameron Hanes?

  And and this is crazy because you've already went seventy five or whatever, which is so far.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah.

• 40:15Cameron Hanes?

  But it's not even close to.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  You still basically have two hundred miles left.

• 40:20Cameron Hanes?

  So I get it.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  You know, your mind starts playing justifying tricks on you. Like, because I'm laying up there. I'm like, oh, I've won this race. I've finished it four or five times. Like, what do I have to prove? So like you start justifying it. But then, you know, you start trying to talk yourself out of it. So I thankfully talked myself out of it and felt fairly good after that and. I had, I had like a small moment where I was like, all right, this is gonna be 2023. I'm gonna make a comeback. I'm gonna catch up to Rachel.

• 40:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Um, but when I got to the top of Mingus, I'm like, no, this isn't gonna happen. I'm just fighting to finish at this point.

• 40:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Getting up to Mingus is it, that's another grind.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:59Cameron Hanes?

  Getting up that thing.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  And then especially when you know what's coming up. I hate the descent.

• 41:03Cameron Hanes?

  All those kind of big rocky, it's hard to run on that road. That road is a mess.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  And there's more climbing than you think there'd be.

• 41:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:12Cameron Hanes?

  I went good on that section last year for whatever reason. It's just kind of like a weird timing thing. If your body responds or, or something, and then you have, but I had a good section. I remember I, as I passed Shelby Farrell in there, she was going, she was running good and she had a really good pacer. But I was feeling good. So it's like for me, I like that section.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:34Cameron Hanes?

  But it's just cause I had a good, good experience in it. But I remember thinking it is hard to run kind of, kind of those baby head rocks or about like this big.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:43Cameron Hanes?

  Friggin hard to open up there.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. There was one, my wife paced, paced me in that spot.

• 41:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  It was the funniest thing. Like, like we had a perfect view of Jerome. And like I asked her, I was like, you good? And she's like, oh, I'm so good. And then like half a second later, I just hear.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  And I looked behind and she just face planted it from chipping on a rock. I felt so bad for her, but just like half a second after she's like, oh, I feel so good right now.

• 42:13Cameron Hanes?

  Things can change in a hurry.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:16Cameron Hanes?

  That, I, I know when I did it, uh, when I was coming down through there, it wasn't this year because I got hurt this year, but last year, um, it was pouring.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  Oh, you got through in the rain?

• 42:27Cameron Hanes?

  Pour, I got, I got down to Jerome soaked. Dude, I've never been so wet, but I don't know. It's.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Do you remember, do you know the cottonwood section? Do you remember what that is?

• 42:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  So I was running that last year and it was hot, but I looked over at Mingus and I just saw a dark cloud over it with like, you could, you know, you can see the rain.

• 42:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  And I could see that. So that that must've been when you were there. It looked awful.

• 42:56Cameron Hanes?

  So you were ahead of me then, I'm sure, right?

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Last year, yeah.

• 42:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Where'd you finish last year?

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Uh, like it was just before seventy two hours.

• 43:06Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  So I think if, because you finished in the evening that I finished.

• 43:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  So I finished probably like, yeah, like twelve hours or so.

• 43:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, gotcha. Yeah. So you, you missed the rain. I got to enjoy it, the pouring rain.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  It looked awful.

• 43:21Cameron Hanes?

  And also you're a hundred Mingus is like one oh eight and then you're going down to, I don't know what Jerome is, one thirty.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  It's halfway. It's one twenty five.

• 43:28Cameron Hanes?

  One twenty five.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:29Cameron Hanes?

  So it's a nice little stretch in the pouring rain, but after a hundred miles, but whatever those. Can you believe we do these things?

• 43:37Speaker 02

  No.

• 43:38Cameron Hanes?

  Freaking so hard, dude.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  So much work.

• 43:40Cameron Hanes?

  Is, but it feels, and seeing everybody working so hard did for the same goal.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:47Cameron Hanes?

  I like it. I just love the environment.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  What's up?

• 43:50Cameron Hanes?

  I love the environment and just atmosphere. And like last year, that little native boy ran with me. It's just like, there's all these little things that happen during three days that are just epic stories.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  That's what's special about two hundreds.

• 44:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Like at a hundred, it's like, I mean, at least when I do it, like a hundred, it's just like, go fast. And you're just like more focused on yourself.

• 44:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Um, and at two hundred, you might start focused on yourself, but there's a very good chance something's going to happen. And you start paying attention to everybody around you because you're suffering and you realize they're suffering and you kind of latch on to a group that's going the same pace as you and you become friends with them and like, it's way more. Like group oriented in my experience.

• 44:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it kinda is. And then I use Ketone IQ when I need to stay sharp for the long haul. Long runs, lifting before I shoot my bow, even when I'm podcasting, anytime I want steady focus without crashing. What I like about it is how it feels. It helps me stay locked in during long efforts and mentally demanding sessions. Not jittery, not wired, just clear and steady. Ketones are your brain's preferred fuel source. So instead of that spiked caffeine feeling, the focus feels calm and controlled. It lets me push without leaning on caffeine or sugar. I'm not chasing another cup of coffee or something sweet just to get through a workout or a long day.

• 45:22Cameron Hanes?

  I can train, work, and think without that roller coaster of energy. Physically, I feel ready to go. Mentally, I'm locked in. That combination matters when you're putting in long hours and real work. Visit ketone.com backslash cam for 30% off your subscription order, plus receive a free gift with your second shipment. Or find Ketone IQ at Target stores nationwide in the hydration and protein aisle and get your first shot free. One of the hardest parts of hunting is glassing big country to find animals you know are there. That's why I run Sig Sauer Zulu imaging stabilizing binoculars when I'm covering a lot of ground and need to see everything.

• 46:05Cameron Hanes?

  These binos are a complete game changer. After long climbs, when your heart rate's up and your hands aren't steady, shaky glass makes it hard to stay locked in. With image stabilization, everything settles down. You can slow the process, really pick apart the country, and catch movement you'd normally miss. I've found more animals and saved a ton of time because of these binos. I actually just talked about how impressive this technology is on the most recent episode of the Joe Rogan Experience. Once you use stabilized glass, it's hard to go back. It gives you a real advantage when you're hunting big, open terrain.

• 46:43Cameron Hanes?

  Here's the rare part. Optics companies almost never offer discounts, but Sig is giving listeners of this podcast 10% off. Just use code CAM at checkout. So if you're serious about glassing and want the same edge I've had the past couple of seasons, head to sigsauer.com, grab a pair of Zulu binos and use code CAM for 10% off. Sig Sauer Zulu Binoculars. See more, miss less, keep hammering. And then with hopefully the Pacers a good, a good match for you and

• 47:16Speaker 02

  Your Pacer?

• 47:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, your, your Pacer. And that's always a roll of the dice because people are always like, I'll come pace you. And then they probably like, leave going, I'm never doing that again.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  We walked for 20 miles and he just complained for half of that.

• 47:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I know. It was like, on that one, Taylor had, had me during the night going into a Fort Tuttle and we went the wrong way. Some, I, I could, I couldn't even focus on anything. And I always got mad. I'm like, I can't afford to get lost. It's like, I, I have, no, I got no extra energy. I can't be doing extra miles.

• 47:55Cameron Hanes?

  So I was getting mad at that. And then like, when I look back at my thing, I went 260 miles. So I'm like, yeah, I would, would have liked to have those four miles back, you know, four extra miles I did.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  So grumpy.

• 48:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, still mad about it, but it's just middle of the night raining. It's, it's easy to miss trail markers sometimes, you know, and it's like, you're kind of in a groove. You're not always looking at your watch or phone or whatever. It's

• 48:19Speaker 02

  And any extra step you have to take is just so demoralizing.

• 48:23Cameron Hanes?

  I know. It's like, if I think I'm the wrong way, I'll, I'm stopping. I'm like, stop, I'm going to figure this out before I take one more step.

• 48:32Cameron Hanes?

  I just can't afford, because you think like, 250 miles, I take about 2,000 steps a mile. So 500,000 steps we have to do.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  It's a good day. That's a good amount of steps.

• 48:45Cameron Hanes?

  And that's just your body, you know, like I said, you can't afford a bunch of extra ones. Cause that's, your body's going to be kind of broke down for 500,000.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  And then your Pacer has to hear you complain about it.

• 48:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  There was this time I did the Arizona Trail.

• 49:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  And it was up on the, I never know how to say this. It's an air viper race. Um, Ben says Mogalom.

• 49:10Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, Mongolia? No, no.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  No, it's, it's, I think it's Mogion.

• 49:15Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. The Arizona Trail goes on the Mogion Rim.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  So I've tried the Arizona Trail three times, two times.

• 49:24Cameron Hanes?

  That's been your nemesis.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  It's been my nemesis.

• 49:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  Next year's the year.

• 49:27Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Um, but I've tried it north to south twice and south to north once. And both times I've gone north to south, I get on top of the Mogion Rim. And it was, the first year, it was just the day after a rainstorm and the mud up there is the type that where you gain 10 pounds per foot as you walk through it.

• 49:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  And so like the first year, I, it was just so miserable. I hated it. And then the third year I did it again, I had a pacer this time. And as we're getting up there, it starts pouring rain and it starts snowing on us too. And I get up on there and it's the same thing. That mud comes and I just start having flashbacks to two years earlier. And so I am in the grumpiest mood and anybody that knows me knows that I don't cuss often. But when I was up there, um, I think the amount of F words I've said in my life went from like two to 200 in that night.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  And my pacers, it's this sweet girl named Brittany. Um, and she's like, she's just hearing me like a side of me she's never seen before. And she just kind of starts laughing. And I just turned around and look at her. I'm like, why are you laughing? There's nothing funny about this.

• 50:39Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  And she's just like, I don't know what to do right now. I'm sorry.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  I felt so bad afterwards. It was not a good experience for her because of how grumpy I was.

• 50:49Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, and I'm, and was that, what time was that? Was that the third time or the second time?

• 50:54Speaker 02

  That was the third time.

• 50:55Cameron Hanes?

  Third time.

• 50:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:57Cameron Hanes?

  And so you're probably like, I've been, what do I have to do to get through this fricking, well, it's not a race, but it's a, are you trying to set the FKTs at the goal?

• 51:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Is it, is it still 14 and a half days or something or?

• 51:10Speaker 02

  No, it's like, um.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  I don't know how this works. So like the supported record is like 12 and a half days.

• 51:18Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  A little bit less.

• 51:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  But somebody said that this is crazy. Somebody set the unsupported record. And it was faster than the supported record.

• 51:28Cameron Hanes?

  How does that work? I wonder.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  That's what I'm wondering. Yeah.

• 51:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that doesn't seem.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  I mean, I think it's, I think rules are rules. I think technically the supported record is what I'd need to go for. But I mean, knowing myself, like knowing that somebody did it without a crew faster than that, like I'm going to target that.

• 51:46Cameron Hanes?

  What, what is their time? Do you know?

• 51:48Speaker 02

  It was under 12 days.

• 51:49Cameron Hanes?

  Was it? Okay. And it's how many miles? 800?

• 51:52Speaker 02

  800. Yeah.

• 51:54Cameron Hanes?

  How many miles is that a day? What do you gotta do? 70?

• 51:56Speaker 02

  The average is out to, well, I don't know what the 11 day record is now, but the current supported record, it's like basically 100K a day.

• 52:04Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, 62. Okay.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:06Cameron Hanes?

  That's a big day.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  It is.

• 52:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  And anyone that's been out, have you hunted like in the superstitions?

• 52:12Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  Or in, like, there's this three wilderness, three different wildernesses in a row. It's like Jamil Curry calls it the mad as hells. I think it's the mad as alls technically. Mad as alls, four peaks and superstitions. And specifically the mad as alls and the superstitions are some of the most rugged, remote trails I've ever been on.

• 52:32Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  Like in the mad as alls, there's like, you have to go like almost 40 miles without crew. A lot of climbing, a lot of like, some of the most technical trails I've ever been on. And every year I've done it, one of those two ranges just like breaks me.

• 52:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  It takes way longer than I plan. You're just out like, like those sections are hard. That's a rugged trail.

• 52:52Cameron Hanes?

  Where are they? Like depending on if you go north, does it make, would it be better going one way or another? To get to there earlier? Maybe when you're fresher?

• 53:01Speaker 02

  They're right in the middle.

• 53:01Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, in the middle. Okay.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  So as you're coming out of the, the, the mad as alls, if you're going north, or sorry, if you're going north to south, it's, you hit the halfway point there. So I guess it's basically right in the middle.

• 53:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  I mean, the superstitions are directly.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  What direction would that be? East of Phoenix?

• 53:20Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm. Okay.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  It's basically right where the Arizona Monster starts, just right by the superstitions.

• 53:27Cameron Hanes?

  I gotcha. Yeah. So 800 miles, 62 miles a day.

• 53:34Cameron Hanes?

  Seems doable on paper.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  It does. And then you hit those three wildernesses and.

• 53:38Cameron Hanes?

  Cause we go like in Coca Dona, what do we do? Like 80 miles a day kinda about?

• 53:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you're only out there for three days.

• 53:44Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  You're not out there for 12.

• 53:46Cameron Hanes?

  I know. But on paper.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  On paper. Why do you think I've tried it three times?

• 53:52Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 53:54Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. So next year's the year, huh?

• 53:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I was gonna try it last year, but then I hurt my back.

• 54:00Cameron Hanes?

  What is, uh, has anything changed? Like.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  For me?

• 54:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. From when you first tried it to now, would you do anything different?

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Um, I'm gonna go. So, I mean, this answer is like all over the place. I'm sorry.

• 54:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's all right.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  Um, so there's a 200 mile race I'm race directing.

• 54:16Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  Um, and I was supposed to do it this year, but I just learned how hard it is to race direct a 200 as a new race director. So I postponed it to next year.

• 54:26Cameron Hanes?

  And people love criticizing race directors.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not, I'm not gonna let that happen.

• 54:30Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, Candace just gets just raked over the coals all the time.

• 54:35Speaker 02

  I wonder if Jamil does.

• 54:36Cameron Hanes?

  Probably.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 54:37Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, and it's just like, guys, what? Give them a break.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:42Cameron Hanes?

  And especially like with Candace, it's like everybody says, oh, women need to, we need to lift up women. And then people like here, we have a woman kicking ass, making cool races. And people just wanna, you know, criticize her all the time. It's like, what, what are we doing?

• 54:56Speaker 02

  It's like, unless you want, I mean, there's more that's popping up. Um, I don't wanna say there's not others.

• 55:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  But like, if you wanna do like, if you don't wanna do a 200, that's 10, 20 mile loops, you have very limited options.

• 55:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  And her races are almost half of those options. So like.

• 55:15Cameron Hanes?

  And I there's always going to be things that come up, but I talked to a lot of people who say they have a great experience doing them.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:22Cameron Hanes?

  And so.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:25Cameron Hanes?

  But it is hard, like to your point, it's like, try it. Cause you say you're gonna try it and you're like, wow.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  I can't do this. Yeah. Yeah, no. And I can understand too. I mean, what I I don't fully understand quite yet, aside from it's just it's a business, like why it costs so much. Um, but I can see why it costs more, like more than double than a hundred. Like the amount of stuff you have to get, the permits, like, um, it costs money.

• 55:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, sure.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Like I I've calculated, and I I think I'm off, I've calculated about 50 grand of expenses. Um, so it's an expensive thing to put on, especially if you want to compensate volunteers in some way.

• 56:07Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Like those last A, like I've created the spreadsheet for my race. And like the last few A stations, unless you get teams of three different group, groups, those people have to commit to volunteering for like 70 hours.

• 56:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  It's a lot.

• 56:21Cameron Hanes?

  Cause some of those races are like they're five, six, five and a half days.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the longer the race goes, like the first four aid stations, like it's a typical hundred mile volunteering experience. But yeah, if you're at mile 180 aid station between like the front runner to the last runner, like

• 56:41Cameron Hanes?

  It's gonna be a while.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  They're there for 70 hours or you have to get three different groups to and like.

• 56:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  So, yeah, like, anyway, where I'm going with that, um, I, part of the reason I postponed the race is I realized I can't race a bunch. And put on a race. So my plan next year is no racing to put on my race and then the Arizona Trail after that. Um, but I'm still going to train, obviously. So the thing that I'm going to do differently for the Arizona Trail is I'm going to go out. And just try to have a good experience in those three wildernesses and fast pack them for a week.

• 57:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  Because those are the three spots that break me. And so I see those spots and then like instantly.

• 57:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Think negatively about them. So I just want to go out there and enjoy it.

• 57:27Cameron Hanes?

  Have a positive.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Have a positive. Yeah. So that's the one thing I'm going to do differently.

• 57:31Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. I bet that makes a big difference, really.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  I hope.

• 57:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Cause you know, when you can anticipate what's coming. Um, you're just more mentally ready for it.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:41Cameron Hanes?

  And yeah, just having some positive emotions tied to it instead of negative makes a big difference, but okay.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  And I've also been burnt out a little bit. Yeah, I'm learning with my personality that I need something different. And so like I was like, you know, I tried high rocks for a little bit. I cycled last year with my back injury. But I would say that like the high rocks followed by the cycling kind of like brought a fire back for me for ultra running because I was feeling burnt out for a couple of years.

• 58:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  And so just like the passion to be training again and like because I'll admit, the reason I quit my last Arizona trail was because I just didn't want to do it anymore.

• 58:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Like I was fine, but I got to mile 500. I was like, I don't want to do this. I want to go home.

• 58:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  So like I, and if you're burnt out, it's easy to have those feelings.

• 58:33Cameron Hanes?

  And people would say like, oh, you almost made it. It's like 300 miles. Dude, what are you talking about almost? Yeah, you went a long way. 500 is crazy, but you had a long way to go.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's days.

• 58:46Cameron Hanes?

  I know, I get it. I get it. It's like, yeah, again, on paper, that's like, oh, we're more than halfway. It's all good. No.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  And like my kids are there. I don't want this to sound like an excuse, but it gets harder to do this when you're a dad.

• 59:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, for sure.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Like he just wanted to be like, uh, do you ever feel like that in the middle of these? Like you just start getting lonely and you're just like, I'd love to be with somebody right now and just.

• 59:10Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I mean, and it, and it doesn't help also when like your wife's going, you got nothing to prove. You don't need to do this. We don't, we love you either way, you know, we don't care that you do this stuff. We just want you to be home. She's like,

• 59:25Speaker 02

  Don't tell me that.

• 59:26Cameron Hanes?

  I want a divorce. I don't need this. I don't need this pressure on me.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  That does not help.

• 59:31Cameron Hanes?

  No. But yeah, so our family loves us no matter what.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:36Cameron Hanes?

  We don't need to earn their love. So when you're out there and you're just like, I could just go home and be like pampered. That sounds kinda cool.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  Pretty great.

• 59:46Cameron Hanes?

  Right now. And then you get home for one day and you're like, this sucks.

• 59:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Why did I quit?

• 59:52Cameron Hanes?

  Why did I quit?

• 59:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then your wife is like, why did I talk him into this? He's a grump.

• 59:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  Get back out there.

• 59:57Cameron Hanes?

  Pouting around all day.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:59Cameron Hanes?

  Feel like a loser and I'm a fraud and I'm supposed to be tough and I quit. So that's what I do.

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  Okay. Does your wife crew you? You need to get her to crew you.

• 1:00:10Cameron Hanes?

  No, she, she, no, she doesn't want me to do any of it. So she's like, that would be like her helping me kill myself.

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  But what, in her mind though, you don't, you don't come home a loser.

• 1:00:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, I don't know. She doesn't, I don't think she'd like it.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  So my wife used to be like that.

• 1:00:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  And I started down once. I was like, listen, you knew I was into this when you married me. I don't expect you to be out here. So I need you to either just stay home and don't talk to me while I'm racing.

• 1:00:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  Or I need your full support.

• 1:00:45Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  And so she chose the full support route.

• 1:00:47Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  But like, she's ruthless now. I don't know if you've heard the story at Moab.

• 1:00:52Cameron Hanes?

  No, I've seen like some, like you want, you, you were gonna quit and she's like, no, you're not quitting.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  And she drove away, but she lied to me beforehand.

• 1:01:01Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:01:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was at Moab.

• 1:01:02Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  I ended up winning that year, but I, I got to mile 70 and it was like the first spot I could see her. I was like, hey, I, my back hurts. I want to quit. I'm done. And she can, she can usually like, see like, he just needs me to like.

• 1:01:17Cameron Hanes?

  If it's real.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  She can tell. And in that moment, she could tell I was done. So she's like, okay, that's fine. Um, the truck has a bunch of stuff in the passenger seat. I'm gonna go take care of it and fix a spot for you. And so I'm sitting in my chair staring at the ground and then I look up and I see my truck driving off into the distance. And at this aid station, there's no service. I have no idea where she's going. I wait for 10 minutes. She doesn't come back. And so I'm pissed at her. Like in my head, I'm like, she like, we're done. She just leaves me here.

• 1:01:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I'm hurting.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm hurting and she lied to me and she left me here. And so at that point, I'm like, I don't know where she's going. I guess I'll keep going. And so I go to the next aid station and I was like, hey, I might, I'll show her. I'm just going to drop without her now. So I go to the next aid station to drop and they're like, yeah, you can drop, but this is in the middle of nowhere. You have to wait 12 hours and we'll drive you out. My, I'm not going to do that. And so I go to the next one and I eventually feel better and I go on and finish and win. But like, she, she, she took my challenge or whatever it was to like, support me to finish these things. And she took it to a whole nother level.

• 1:02:32Cameron Hanes?

  That's amazing though.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:33Cameron Hanes?

  Dude, so you would have DNF'd.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  I would have DNF'd.

• 1:02:36Cameron Hanes?

  Instead you won.

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  And set the course record.

• 1:02:38Cameron Hanes?

  Crazy.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:40Cameron Hanes?

  That is amazing.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:42Cameron Hanes?

  I think Taylor had some, Taylor was going to drop. I think he's only done Cocaldonna one time, but uh, he was going to drop. And Greg, his, his stepdad, or my stepdad, his dad, um, I think got the van stuck. Like trying to turn around on those roads. And so he couldn't get, so Taylor had to keep going. Then he got top 10.

• 1:03:04Speaker 02

  Oh, nice.

• 1:03:04Cameron Hanes?

  But he was gonna, he was gonna quit too.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  Well, that's the crazy thing, dude. Like, people don't realize in the 200, how fast things can turn around. Like if you actually quit and obviously, I mean, I guess I can't say this around you because you ran Cocaldonna with a broken foot or whatever.

• 1:03:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:22Speaker 02

  But like, obviously like, if you're injured, or like the year I dropped Cocaldonna and went to the hospital because I was pissing blood.

• 1:03:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  I, obviously there's reasons to quit.

• 1:03:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  But like, 95% of the time, you're probably fine.

• 1:03:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  And in these scenarios, are you going to get top 10? Are you going to win and set a course record? Like, what are you giving up because you chose to like, sis out?

• 1:03:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  Because you're tired and hurt.

• 1:03:48Cameron Hanes?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Cameron Hanes?

  But it feels so overwhelming sometimes.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:53Cameron Hanes?

  Even though it's not like life threatening or anything, the pain and like, you're so exa- so beat up or like beat down. That you're just like, I just, I just want this to be over.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  I still got two to four days of this kind of suffer like you. Yeah, you're just so focused on how much you're suffering right there and you forget that it's most likely going to go away.

• 1:04:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  Like in two hours.

• 1:04:19Cameron Hanes?

  I know. We just got to keep, we got to remember that.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:22Cameron Hanes?

  Just always remember that.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  It's a mental game.

• 1:04:25Cameron Hanes?

  And also I get, I mean, you've done a lot more two hundreds than me, but it feels like I'm telling myself a lot that I'm never doing this again.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Cameron Hanes?

  And then like, even though I had a terrible Coca dona this year, I still cannot stop thinking about doing it again.

• 1:04:43Speaker 02

  Going back?

• 1:04:45Cameron Hanes?

  Why?

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  You want to hear something funny?

• 1:04:48Cameron Hanes?

  Uh.

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  So I finished Coca dona and I told Sarah, my wife, I'm done. I'm taking this break. I promise. I need a break. And then the next day I was like, do you know what would be epic?

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  What if I ran it backwards, camped out for five to 10 hours, hopefully, and then ran the race?

• 1:05:11Cameron Hanes?

  There you go.

• 1:05:12Speaker 02

  The Coca dona double 500.

• 1:05:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's just like taking a break.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, the next freaking day.

• 1:05:19Cameron Hanes?

  One day later.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  One day later.

• 1:05:20Cameron Hanes?

  After saying you're done, I'm going to get a regular job. I'm going to sell insurance.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:25Cameron Hanes?

  Actually.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  What if I do the double?

• 1:05:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I think, didn't Harvey Lewis do that at Badwater?

• 1:05:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:33Cameron Hanes?

  I think he did that.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Cameron Hanes?

  But he, he raced it. He didn't do like what you did. You were going to do it backwards before the race, right? And then race it?

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:42Cameron Hanes?

  Cause I think he raced Badwater and then went backward after the.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  That would make more sense.

• 1:05:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah. Cause then you're fresh for the race.

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  But I, I'm pretty sure when I got to Flagstaff, I won't be going back.

• 1:05:55Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  That was the plan. The only way I'm doing it both ways is if I do it backwards.

• 1:06:00Cameron Hanes?

  That's true. And you're in the race then. Then you got support. You got the, the other people there.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  Well, and I paid for it too.

• 1:06:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Like if you finish the race, it's like, I got what I paid for.

• 1:06:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  But if you run it backwards and then don't finish, it's like.

• 1:06:14Cameron Hanes?

  Because, because what if also, like, could you imagine you go backward to warm up, a little warm up? And then what if you crushed it in the race after doing it double? You'd be the king.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  You would be, but 20 minutes ago, we were just saying how you can't do a 300 four weeks before it.

• 1:06:35Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  And win it, but you might be able to run it backwards and then win it the next day.

• 1:06:41Cameron Hanes?

  Take a day off.

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's more doable.

• 1:06:43Cameron Hanes?

  We're not.

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  We're not smart.

• 1:06:45Cameron Hanes?

  No. But it's like, I don't know, it's like, we talk about these things and I think for me, I always just get so, when it goes well, you feel invisible. I do and I, and like them to like talking to Courtney and she's always like, she wants to do a 500 mile run. You know, it's kind of like your thing with the 800 or doing the double. It's like, there's these big, like, what could we do? How far could we go?

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13Cameron Hanes?

  And you just want to find out.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  And that's why part of me wishes I just had a normal job.

• 1:07:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  Because there's always, at least I feel it, there's always this pressure to perform.

• 1:07:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I know. I feel that too.

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:28Cameron Hanes?

  Cause no matter how many times you did it, it's like, that means nothing today. That's in the past.

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:07:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I got, I gotta prove myself today.

• 1:07:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's all these new fast young guns.

• 1:07:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  You can't beat them and then your head is like, well, yeah, cause I tried Coca Dona double.

• 1:07:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:43Speaker 02

  And they're like, well, you idiot, you should have treated that as an A race and showed up and tried to beat them. But like.

• 1:07:49Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  We're just like, we want to try something epic. I've done Coca Dona five times. I'd rather try the double now.

• 1:07:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I know. It's like, and also when I see those young guys or whatever, I'm always like making excuses for it. Like, well, if I do this, if I do that, I think I could hang with them.

• 1:08:08Cameron Hanes?

  Which there's probably no chance I can hang with anybody, but I tricked myself into thinking I could.

• 1:08:13Speaker 02

  I think you could. You just need to learn how to taper and train specific.

• 1:08:17Cameron Hanes?

  I just need to learn how to race. I can run, I can't race.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  Part of racing is like tapering.

• 1:08:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, wow. Yeah, I don't know. But anyway, I like.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  But anyway.

• 1:08:29Cameron Hanes?

  I like, I love, I'm addicted to lining up in racing.

• 1:08:33Speaker 02

  That's what you're addicted to?

• 1:08:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. But I'm just not good at preparing my body to do it. But I love like, like yesterday at the track or any race I do, or I did 10 miles or, or the 10 K I just did on the 4th of July, I just love putting a bib on and like racing.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:51Cameron Hanes?

  But I'm just not good at like making a good plan to be at my best.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  I would say with like how you train and don't recover.

• 1:09:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:02Speaker 02

  You race really well. Like for what, for what you accomplish. And like, I mean, I just got a glimpse of that. I don't know your life.

• 1:09:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  But like, from what I could see this week, like,

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  like, you're really good at a lot of stuff. I think you could be great at one thing if you focused on it. But for like, we're talking about running.

• 1:09:25Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:09:27Speaker 02

  But for like how you train, like you do really well at a lot of stuff.

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  I don't know if that makes sense.

• 1:09:35Cameron Hanes?

  You mean like running?

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, different, different distances.

• 1:09:38Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay, yeah.

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Like, like, because most people, you were, you were the one that was talking about this, like the, the track stars or whatever.

• 1:09:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  Like they have a plan. They'll run with you. But if they have like an hour of strides, even though they did 20 miles with you, they still go do their hour strides. They stick to their plan.

• 1:09:55Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  So like, um, and you, you're, you admitted this, I'm not saying this. You said you don't have a plan.

• 1:10:02Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  So like, like, I think if you actually had a plan and you're like, I'm going to be a good marathon runner. And you trained that way, then you would be great at it.

• 1:10:13Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, thank you. Yeah, I, I, it's always just been like a, it's just to help me in bow hunting. I, I mean,

• 1:10:19Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:10:20Cameron Hanes?

  I give my best when I race. You know, like, it means, that means everything that day, but not on the training days. Training days, I just want to be exhausted all the time and feel like I did something.

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  So if you're addicted to that, then I don't know.

• 1:10:35Cameron Hanes?

  Right. So anyway, um, but yeah, I mean, it's a, well, what's like, what's your goal? So you're gonna do, we're gonna get that Arizona Trail FKT.

• 1:10:47Cameron Hanes?

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• 1:11:30Cameron Hanes?

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• 1:12:12Cameron Hanes?

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• 1:12:57Cameron Hanes?

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• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  Um, I had the Colorado Trail, but um, DJ, the guy that got third place at Coca Dona. He um, DJ Fox.

• 1:13:22Cameron Hanes?

  Did he get, we had fourth.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. He got, he ended up getting third men's, fourth overall.

• 1:13:30Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay. Cause on our video, it says fourth.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, fourth overall.

• 1:13:35Cameron Hanes?

  Does it say fourth overall in the video?

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:37Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. It's, it's in my, my stupid video. It was like, it was just like where I was when I got knocked out or whatever. But uh, no DJ, and DJ's coming on here.

• 1:13:49Speaker 02

  Oh, cool.

• 1:13:49Cameron Hanes?

  So I don't know why, why were we talking about him?

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  Cause you, we were talking about the Colorado Trail.

• 1:13:54Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:54Speaker 02

  He took my Colorado Trail.

• 1:13:55Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, he did. Okay.

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  A year or two ago.

• 1:13:58Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man. So he's freaking good too.

• 1:14:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, he's a

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  He's awesome.

• 1:14:02Cameron Hanes?

  He's a stud.

• 1:14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:03Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  So that, that was my, my

• 1:14:05Cameron Hanes?

  That was your K T. Okay.

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  I had that for, I said it in 2020. Um, I can't remember if it was last year or the year before, but I had it for four or five years.

• 1:14:14Cameron Hanes?

  And was that unsupported or supported?

• 1:14:16Speaker 02

  Supported. I'm bougie.

• 1:14:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And then what was, what was the record?

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  My record?

• 1:14:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  Um, seven days, 13 hours.

• 1:14:26Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, so you must've got it after Courtney was trying?

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:30Cameron Hanes?

  Cause I thought when she tried was eight days.

• 1:14:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, the record I took was eight days and seven hours.

• 1:14:36Cameron Hanes?

  Right, okay.

• 1:14:37Speaker 02

  No, that, so everybody who knows anything about Courtney loves her.

• 1:14:42Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  Um,

• 1:14:43Cameron Hanes?

  But you hate her.

• 1:14:44Speaker 02

  Absolutely. She's the worst.

• 1:14:49Cameron Hanes?

  That's where I thought it was going.

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  She sucks. No, no. The thing, like this, this experience made me grow to love her even more. Um, cause we were teammates for Solomon.

• 1:14:59Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  Um, that year and the year that she didn't finish the Colorado Trail and went to the hospital.

• 1:15:06Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:15:07Speaker 02

  Um, I, for some reason I had her number. I don't know why, but I texted her and was like, hey, sorry that that happened. You were crushing it. I hope you get recovering.

• 1:15:14Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  And like, she did not acknowledge her situation at all.

• 1:15:20Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, that's her.

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:22Cameron Hanes?

  So irritating.

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  She's so nice.

• 1:15:25Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  That's why I hate her.

• 1:15:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  Just kidding. Um, but her reply was just like, hey, if you aren't doing anything, you should go for it. Cause I think you should, you could get it. Like after she just.

• 1:15:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:37Speaker 02

  Had that terrible experience.

• 1:15:39Cameron Hanes?

  She was going for what she told you to go for that you.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:42Cameron Hanes?

  Kind of pumping you up to do it.

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  Pumping me up to do it.

• 1:15:45Cameron Hanes?

  See, that's not normal.

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:15:46Cameron Hanes?

  She should be sabotaging you.

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  She should ignore me.

• 1:15:51Cameron Hanes?

  I know. Well, that time I went to help her and she was like even struggling. This is like day four, but she already had this cough.

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:15:59Cameron Hanes?

  And the blood and everything. And so she was, had been pushing hard already and had that, like that cough thing, which ended up messing with her oxygen level in her brain. But she was like, how are you doing? I'm like, no, no, I'm don't, I'm not falling for this shit. Don't ask how I'm doing. I just got here. So that's what she does.

• 1:16:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:21Cameron Hanes?

  She's like miserable and beat up. I remember me and Kevin, we're, we were with her in one section. It was like pretty real steep. You go up and there's some lakes on the other side, but uh.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  Leadville?

• 1:16:31Cameron Hanes?

  Uh, no, it was like going into maybe twin lake or is it?

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  Twin Lakes is Leadville.

• 1:16:36Cameron Hanes?

  Oh. No, I can't remember where it was. Anyway, um, do you remember where she dropped? Oh, she did.

• 1:16:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:45Cameron Hanes?

  So right before that, what is like, there's a, a really steep climb. And you drop over and I think, I thought there was a.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  Is that Mount Massive?

• 1:16:55Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. No, I can't remember. But anyway, point is me and Kevin are going, she was struggling and we're going pretty good. And I thought, oh, she's going to be probably, she probably, some should go back with her. And I turn around, we're pushing, I turn, she's right there.

• 1:17:09Speaker 02

  And she's dying.

• 1:17:10Cameron Hanes?

  After, as she's dying, I'm like, how? I'm like fresh and giving all I have.

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:16Cameron Hanes?

  And she's like a, almost a corpse and still right there. I'm like, what is going on?

• 1:17:21Speaker 02

  Animal.

• 1:17:22Cameron Hanes?

  It's nuts, but.

• 1:17:23Speaker 02

  And I mean, they're both so nice. Like I've never met Kevin before. So anyway, I ended up going for it like three weeks after she told me to go for it.

• 1:17:32Cameron Hanes?

  And you got it.

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  And I got it.

• 1:17:34Cameron Hanes?

  Nice.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  But um, it was around, I think it was around Leadville or a little bit before, but like her husband showed up to support me.

• 1:17:42Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:17:43Speaker 02

  Never met him before. He was like, hey, Courtney told me you're out here just coming to say good job and keep it up. And he hung out for a little bit like.

• 1:17:50Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  They're awesome.

• 1:17:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's amazing.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:54Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. When I always think about, I need to be a better person, I think of them.

• 1:17:59Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:18:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's who I need to be like, but instead I'm like myself and that's not good.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  I mean, I think it's impossible to become like them.

• 1:18:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, probably too late, too far down the road.

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  For any of us.

• 1:18:14Cameron Hanes?

  Too many bad habits.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:17Cameron Hanes?

  Well, yeah. Um, so we're gonna get the F K T.

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:23Cameron Hanes?

  On Arizona Trail and then like, then what?

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  After the Arizona Trail?

• 1:18:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't have a plan. I've told you that.

• 1:18:31Cameron Hanes?

  Um.

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  I'd love to do the Appalachian or the P C T one day.

• 1:18:35Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  One day.

• 1:18:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:37Speaker 02

  But yeah, I don't know.

• 1:18:39Cameron Hanes?

  I talked to some guy who did, somebody did all three of them because there's a P C T, the A T, and then the one in the middle, like through Montana. Yeah. And can you do all, you can do all those, right? It's like.

• 1:18:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's called the Triple Crown.

• 1:18:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:55Speaker 02

  I think, I don't want somebody to say I'm speaking out of turn, but I'm pretty sure it's called the Triple Crown.

• 1:19:00Cameron Hanes?

  That'd be a test.

• 1:19:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can't do that with the family.

• 1:19:03Cameron Hanes?

  That's no, you'd be gone for like, see you next year.

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:07Cameron Hanes?

  I don't even know how long that would take.

• 1:19:10Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know of any, did this person run it?

• 1:19:14Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm, I think hike mostly.

• 1:19:16Speaker 02

  I think most people hike.

• 1:19:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Speaker 02

  All three of them. I don't know if anybody's tried running all three of them.

• 1:19:20Cameron Hanes?

  What about TransCon? You ever thought about that?

• 1:19:24Speaker 02

  Is that the one across the United States?

• 1:19:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  It's too much road.

• 1:19:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  I hate the road, dude.

• 1:19:28Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  No, I don't know. I, I'm in a weird situation where like, I love what I do. Um, but I, I, I, I need to try new things.

• 1:19:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  Like, I'd love to start focusing on high rocks again.

• 1:19:40Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  But I'm also an ultra running coach, so I need to keep dabbling in ultra running.

• 1:19:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:45Speaker 02

  And doing well at that. Um.

• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just get bored easy. I like trying new stuff, but.

• 1:19:53Cameron Hanes?

  I get it.

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  So yeah, I don't know, like, I, I, yeah, we'll have to see how my race does too, because who knows, maybe I'm going to retire and just become a race director.

• 1:20:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  Race takes off.

• 1:20:04Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know, could do that. Um, and then you're getting, you're setting up a 200 miler, right?

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  Utah.

• 1:20:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, this year I am doing that race in Italy, Torta Gents.

• 1:20:16Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man, that's.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  And I'm excited for that, like, like, yeah.

• 1:20:21Cameron Hanes?

  Have you raced out of the country much?

• 1:20:23Speaker 02

  No, because I'm bougie.

• 1:20:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:26Speaker 02

  I like.

• 1:20:26Cameron Hanes?

  Like you've never done UTMB then?

• 1:20:29Speaker 02

  No, no, no, I like I, you might know who they are. I think they're called like 507 Tactical.

• 1:20:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, or is it 507? Or is it?

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  511?

• 1:20:41Cameron Hanes?

  511, that's what it is. 511, yeah.

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  Um, I got one of their, like, it's a huge bag.

• 1:20:47Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:20:47Speaker 02

  Um, it cost me like 500 bucks, but like I have everything in there. Like I, I pack my closet, basically like I have.

• 1:20:56Cameron Hanes?

  For the race?

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  For races I do.

• 1:20:57Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  I have 10 different jackets, 10 different shirts and I'm like, I'm not going to use 25 or 75% of these, but I'm going to have them just in case.

• 1:21:06Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:21:06Speaker 02

  And so like I, I've, I've hated the thought of like trying to like figure out what I actually need and pack it and ship it over to a different country.

• 1:21:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  So, yeah, the, this, this is my first one and I'm going to have to figure that out.

• 1:21:18Cameron Hanes?

  Get dialed in a little bit.

• 1:21:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:20Cameron Hanes?

  And this race is tough. It's like the 80 some thousand feet of gain, right?

• 1:21:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've seen 80 to 90.

• 1:21:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:27Speaker 02

  I think it's closer to 80 though.

• 1:21:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:29Speaker 02

  For 200 miles.

• 1:21:31Cameron Hanes?

  And, uh, yeah, what's your goal there? Can you win?

• 1:21:36Speaker 02

  I hope.

• 1:21:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. What's, what, what usually wins at what time?

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  Um, from my, from what I've studied, and I try not to study too much to psych myself out, but it's like mid 60 hours.

• 1:21:46Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Um. And how far is it to?

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  It's 200.

• 1:21:49Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  But I mean, it's like double, for anybody that's done Bigfoot, it's double the amount of climbing of Bigfoot or more in the same distance.

• 1:21:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that slows you down for sure.

• 1:21:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. But like, like I was saying earlier, like I need something new to excite me.

• 1:22:02Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:22:03Speaker 02

  Like, like the Arizona Monster was a new race. I did well at it.

• 1:22:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:08Speaker 02

  Um. So I'm hoping that because this is new and different and I mean with my training, I'm pretty excited like I'm I feel the passion again. So I I'm hopeful that I can do pretty well at this one.

• 1:22:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:20Speaker 02

  And I'm like, I'm a good hiker. I'm not a good runner. And this is like a hiking race.

• 1:22:24Cameron Hanes?

  Five twenty mile.

• 1:22:27Cameron Hanes?

  You could you could do even faster fresh.

• 1:22:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe we'll see.

• 1:22:31Cameron Hanes?

  You're a good runner. I wonder a marathon could be another fun goal.

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  That does not sound fun.

• 1:22:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:40Cameron Hanes?

  Pushing it. Well, for me, it feels like sprinting for two and a half hours.

• 1:22:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:45Cameron Hanes?

  Not fun.

• 1:22:46Speaker 02

  Redlining for two and a half hours. Yeah.

• 1:22:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I don't know. But yeah.

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  But I like just doing weird crap, man. You know that.

• 1:22:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  Like, I just need to start doing more of that kind of stuff that like my zero calorie one hundred, like just weird stuff like that. But then again, you have the people that.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  So like, I did the zero calorie thing twice.

• 1:23:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  The first time I did it just to see if I could do it. And then I had a bunch of that was like the first time I like it really experienced hate.

• 1:23:15Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, that's okay. Yeah.

• 1:23:17Speaker 02

  All these people saying I have eating disorders and I'm promoting an unhealthy lifestyle. Like, it was the weirdest like. I I saw like a news clip on me in Spain.

• 1:23:28Cameron Hanes?

  That is, that doesn't.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  It was the weirdest thing.

• 1:23:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  I had a friend of mine who knew Spanish, translate it. And it was this dietitian saying I'm gonna die of kidney disease and.

• 1:23:36Cameron Hanes?

  Settle down.

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  It was crazy.

• 1:23:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, everybody's got an opinion, don't they?

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  They do.

• 1:23:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:42Speaker 02

  And so like I I did it again at a twenty four hour race.

• 1:23:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:46Speaker 02

  But with blood work.

• 1:23:47Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  Just to like, see what was going on.

• 1:23:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  And like, I ended up getting third place at that race.

• 1:23:54Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  No calories.

• 1:23:55Cameron Hanes?

  Geez.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  I did like one hundred and twenty miles in twenty four hours.

• 1:23:59Cameron Hanes?

  That is good.

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  Um, but the blood work, like, nothing was wrong with me. I had elevated cortisol.

• 1:24:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:05Speaker 02

  Which anybody's gonna have that after.

• 1:24:06Cameron Hanes?

  For sure.

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  Inultra.

• 1:24:07Cameron Hanes?

  But your kidneys were good.

• 1:24:09Speaker 02

  Everything was fine.

• 1:24:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:10Cameron Hanes?

  Because people would say like, RABDO is what gets a lot of people. And it just it's going that the kidney mark, I can't remember what the marker is, but.

• 1:24:18Speaker 02

  CK levels.

• 1:24:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, CK levels. Yeah. So you were fine then.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  Everything was fine.

• 1:24:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:23Speaker 02

  But anyway. Like when I did that, and this is the thing like trying to make a living with this that you gotta watch out for it sucks. But like I had people like, I don't know if it was Reddit or let's run or something stupid saying stuff like, oh, McKnight knows he can't win that kind of a race. So we had to do a stupid zero calorie thing to give him a crutch.

• 1:24:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:45Speaker 02

  And so it's like, when you want to do weird stuff and fun stuff like that, you're always gonna have those people that.

• 1:24:50Cameron Hanes?

  Criticize.

• 1:24:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Well, they're doing nothing.

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, everybody's got an opinion. It's just, it's, it sucks, but like, um, you know, what I've told Truitt is like, that is how you make money is you have to make people care. So if they're talking shit or they're celebrating, they care, you know?

• 1:25:11Speaker 02

  They're talking.

• 1:25:12Cameron Hanes?

  And so doing what you do where you, where you do rely on sponsorships, um, bad can be good too, you know?

• 1:25:21Speaker 02

  True.

• 1:25:21Cameron Hanes?

  Cause it's like, is you got that engagement. Cause all brands care about is, is anybody looking at what you're doing.

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:25:27Cameron Hanes?

  If nobody's looking at it, they're like, we don't got anything for you.

• 1:25:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:32Cameron Hanes?

  But if a lot of people are looking at it, they're like, yeah, we can work something out. But, uh, so I think, I think it's good too, because you're kind of good at a lot of things. I mean, like, I mean, you want to be a hybrid rock star, right?

• 1:25:46Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:25:48Cameron Hanes?

  No, but, but just, I think you could be really good at that, at high rocks.

• 1:25:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean.

• 1:25:56Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, if you train specific, cause you have trained specifically and you did, you made the, what the world championships, right?

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Qualified for worlds.

• 1:26:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So I mean, I bet, cause you're strong and you got that endurance, which it was, we talked about like high rocks is a lot of cardio.

• 1:26:11Speaker 02

  Oh, a hundred percent.

• 1:26:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:12Speaker 02

  That's where I made up was by running.

• 1:26:15Cameron Hanes?

  Right. But you're, you're also bigger than most like, most ultra runners. So you got more muscle. So you can do like, cause there's muscle, the sled push and shit. If you weigh a hundred and thirty pounds, you're not pushing that sled anywhere.

• 1:26:28Speaker 02

  That sled push is hard. Yeah. You need to wait for that.

• 1:26:30Cameron Hanes?

  I saw they had like four plates on it, don't they?

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. I haven't looked at it for a while, but it's like, it's like close to three hundred pounds.

• 1:26:39Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:26:40Speaker 02

  If I remember right.

• 1:26:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So I mean, you gotta have some muscle to do that.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:44Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah.

• 1:26:44Speaker 02

  Sled push, sled pull. Um, the farmers, the wall balls, dude.

• 1:26:49Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  Have you done those in a workout?

• 1:26:51Cameron Hanes?

  I have, but not in a.

• 1:26:52Speaker 02

  A hundred wall balls with twenty pounds, a twenty pound wall ball.

• 1:26:56Cameron Hanes?

  Is it, is it unbroken? Or how do you do it?

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  Uh, I mean, I mean.

• 1:27:02Cameron Hanes?

  You don't, you don't do any other movements in between?

• 1:27:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:27:05Cameron Hanes?

  Just a hundred straight?

• 1:27:06Speaker 02

  Hundred straight. I mean, you could stop and catch and take a break.

• 1:27:09Cameron Hanes?

  Probably get gassed, don't you?

• 1:27:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:27:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  I was on target for under an hour. I, I got an hour and a minute. And I was on target for that, but my wall balls sucked.

• 1:27:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  Like I had to do a lot more than a hundred because I didn't go up high enough or I didn't squat low enough. They have a counter. Um, but yeah, the wall balls are where I really screwed up.

• 1:27:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:30Cameron Hanes?

  And when you get fatigued, does it make anything?

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:27:33Cameron Hanes?

  In the other stuff?

• 1:27:33Speaker 02

  It's the last event, too.

• 1:27:35Cameron Hanes?

  Ooh.

• 1:27:35Speaker 02

  Like you do that and then sprint to the finish line. So you're already gassed.

• 1:27:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:41Speaker 02

  It's hard. I mean, people make fun of high rocks.

• 1:27:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:44Speaker 02

  The name sucks.

• 1:27:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Well, high rocks isn't bad. Hybrid rock star. Is not cool.

• 1:27:50Speaker 02

  It's not cool. It's very. There's some words to describe that.

• 1:27:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:55Speaker 02

  But, um, but the event itself.

• 1:27:58Cameron Hanes?

  We'll just say it's there. It's James. Cause we don't want to say, we don't want to get canceled for saying what it really is. So we'll just say it's James.

• 1:28:04Speaker 02

  Very James.

• 1:28:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:06Speaker 02

  It's the most James name I've ever heard.

• 1:28:11Speaker 02

  But the event is cool and it's work.

• 1:28:13Cameron Hanes?

  No, for sure. And, um, so can you get sponsors with, I mean, what do your sponsors think about that? Like, cause that's a different category, obviously.

• 1:28:23Speaker 02

  Um, my main sponsor will support me no matter what I do.

• 1:28:27Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:28:27Speaker 02

  I mean, they support, supported me through my, my, um, my injury. So they're.

• 1:28:32Cameron Hanes?

  Who's your main sponsor? Let's give them some love.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  Um, I mean, they're a competitor of one of your sponsors, I think.

• 1:28:37Cameron Hanes?

  I don't care about that.

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  Redmond relight.

• 1:28:40Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, that's good.

• 1:28:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:42Cameron Hanes?

  Um, yeah, I don't even have any element here, but so we'll give, we'll give relight some love.

• 1:28:46Speaker 02

  Okay, thank you.

• 1:28:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So that if they're your main sponsor, they make me happy. So good job, relight.

• 1:28:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. And like I said, they support me through everything. They support me through my injury. They're supporting me for my race in Europe, even though that was totally different than what my year was supposed to be. They supported me through the high rock scene. So like anything that I do, they're happy.

• 1:29:06Cameron Hanes?

  Sweet. And then who's your other sponsors?

• 1:29:09Speaker 02

  Um, and Gingy, I think they would be cool if I did high rocks. They were, they were cool with me biking last year, like through my injury. Um, Squirrel's Nut Butter would probably be fine.

• 1:29:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, those are my main ones.

• 1:29:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:25Speaker 02

  I'm probably forgetting somebody.

• 1:29:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's, it's good. Well, yeah, I mean, as long as you're getting attention out there and you're qualifying for Worlds and your name's being mentioned.

• 1:29:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:35Cameron Hanes?

  That's all they want.

• 1:29:36Speaker 02

  I mean, it wasn't an official sponsor, but Puma sent me a bunch of gear for high rocks. They sent me a couple of shoes and apparel.

• 1:29:43Cameron Hanes?

  That'd be a good one to get if, if you could.

• 1:29:45Speaker 02

  They have good shoes.

• 1:29:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I don't know. Do they have trail shoes?

• 1:29:48Speaker 02

  That's what I wore for our run on Wednesday.

• 1:29:50Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, yeah. So, and are they carbon or?

• 1:29:54Speaker 02

  Um, the ones I had are carbon.

• 1:29:56Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  They have some non-carbon.

• 1:29:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:58Speaker 02

  Basically the chill ones that I wore are what, at least an older model of what we wore last night at the Hayward Mile.

• 1:30:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're fast.

• 1:30:08Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. Yeah, well, that'd be, that'd be good. And so we'll just keep, keep it fresh. And now you got, now you're a bow hunter too.

• 1:30:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:30:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I'm gonna, so look at this. Let's talk about this for a sec. Tell me about your experience shooting your new Hoyt.

• 1:30:26Speaker 02

  I got a bullseye on my first shot.

• 1:30:28Cameron Hanes?

  You did. You shot good, dude. You are good. Definitely.

• 1:30:32Speaker 02

  No, it was great.

• 1:30:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:33Speaker 02

  I, I thought it was gonna go terrible because my son has a bow, a toy bow, and he can do better with me on that, do better than me on that.

• 1:30:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, well, he's in for a rude awakening now.

• 1:30:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:46Cameron Hanes?

  You can shoot his arrows and break them.

• 1:30:50Speaker 02

  No, it was good. This is fun. Like, I've never hunted before. I I've shot very little guns in my life, too. Funny story, I actually own a gun. When Biden got put in, I heard all these things about how we weren't gonna be able to buy guns again.

• 1:31:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:06Speaker 02

  So I went out and bought one, but I haven't. It's still it's still in the packaging.

• 1:31:11Cameron Hanes?

  A lot of people, like even when they thought Hillary was gonna win, they're like, oh, we're gonna, they're gonna whatever. So like, she was the best gun salesman ever. And like, I think the stat is like, half the people who bought guns have never shot them.

• 1:31:26Speaker 02

  I'm one of those.

• 1:31:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So it's like, it's pretty common.

• 1:31:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:29Cameron Hanes?

  You know, people think it's a good idea to have one to protect themselves or whatever. And it is a good idea, but there's another part to it.

• 1:31:37Speaker 02

  Learning how to shoot it. No, yeah, that's still nice and packaged up. I could probably sell it for some good money.

• 1:31:43Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, what was it, a nine millimeter or something?

• 1:31:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:46Cameron Hanes?

  Or a three?

• 1:31:47Speaker 02

  A Sig.

• 1:31:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, Sig. Okay.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:50Cameron Hanes?

  Probably nine. Yeah, that's, I mean, they're good. But yeah, well, now you're shooting.

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Now I know how to shoot a bow to protect myself.

• 1:31:58Cameron Hanes?

  There you go.

• 1:31:59Speaker 02

  Be legalists.

• 1:32:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  But no, like I I've never been hunting or anything.

• 1:32:05Speaker 02

  But I've had a couple of people actually message me since sharing stories of being out here.

• 1:32:09Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:10Speaker 02

  Where I live that are bow hunters.

• 1:32:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I saw somebody say there's a place to shoot, like, I saw a comment, somebody says, place to shoot, like, right near you.

• 1:32:18Speaker 02

  Oh, I didn't see that.

• 1:32:18Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, it's like another archery guy. I think he mentioned a shop somewhere.

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I don't even know that.

• 1:32:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so I saw that on, maybe on one of the posts.

• 1:32:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm gonna try to do it more.

• 1:32:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:28Speaker 02

  I'd love to get into it. This is a great bow.

• 1:32:31Cameron Hanes?

  What I always say is, it's, you know, we're so, we get so obsessed with goals and things like that, but when you're shooting.

• 1:32:42Cameron Hanes?

  When you're shooting a bow and you're just focused on, there's so much to remember. Like Wayne told you, like a million different things. It's like, seriously about a million things. So when you're doing that, that's all you're thinking about. So you're not distracted with the pressure of sponsors or this race or whatever you're thinking about. So it's like very therapeutic because it's like, this is all you're thinking about. So you get a break from, from all the other stresses of life. And I feel better after I, you know, get out there, watch a few arrows fly and sink in the target and you're just like, okay, this is, this is a good reset.

• 1:33:16Speaker 02

  Well, and it forces you to, it forces you to calm down.

• 1:33:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:19Speaker 02

  Cause there's a couple of times like, like where I was like shaking and like, I just kind of like blinked and I was like, started like controlling my breathing. I was like, I need to like calm down and like relax my body. So it is a great way to just like distract yourself, but then force yourself to, to like really calm down.

• 1:33:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:38Speaker 02

  Cause it's hard to shoot if you're shaking.

• 1:33:40Cameron Hanes?

  Dude, you did great. You shot really well.

• 1:33:43Speaker 02

  Well, thank you.

• 1:33:43Cameron Hanes?

  That, that was very impressive. And I'm just like, I'm so thankful. It feels like, I talked to you into staying another day, but it feels like we did so much fun stuff and hard stuff and cool stuff. Um, it's like, and then, then we got to go and meet Forrest Frank up there on Pisgah after, after the track meet yesterday. And, uh, I mean, that was amazing.

• 1:34:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:08Cameron Hanes?

  You know, those guys were incredible.

• 1:34:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Praying on a mountain with them. Yeah. I mean, speaking of like your abilities as a, a podcast host, like, um, Dylan, I think was his name, the one that had cancer four times.

• 1:34:20Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 1:34:22Speaker 02

  He was asking me, he's like, so how, how's it been out here for Cam's podcast? And I told him everything we did. And he was like, dude, that's so awesome. Like he has a following. He has like almost half a million followers.

• 1:34:32Cameron Hanes?

  Four hundred some thousand. Yeah.

• 1:34:34Speaker 02

  And so he is telling me, he's been invited to podcasts and he gets out there and he doesn't see or talk to the host until they're like this.

• 1:34:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  Like he just interacts with the assistant or whatever. They do their show and then he's gone. They don't do anything. So when I told him everything that you were doing, he was like, holy cow. Like he's a good podcast host.

• 1:34:54Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I mean, part of it is because I'm not a good podcast host. So it's like, like, like Joe, like Joe, who is the best at podcasting, he could do like what you just described. Just have the guy come and sit down and make it a great conversation. For me. I do better when I know have like have a connection or we've done some things, we've shared some suffering or we've talked and we have like a bond a little bit, then I'm like, because to me it feels like, I know when I'm talking to somebody, if I don't know them or really kind of trust them at all, I'm not going to say the same type of stuff. But if if I know somebody's like kind of on my side and believes in me, I'll, it'll be a better conversation. So I'm just trying, when I have guests out here, just,

• 1:35:39Cameron Hanes?

  I just want them to know, I'm not doing a gotcha. I'm not like, you know, don't want to make you look bad. We're we're on the same, I want it to be positive. And so people like, oh, okay. They and then not let your guard down, but just be more open. And that just makes better conversation.

• 1:35:57Speaker 02

  I mean, I feel like you're at a level where you don't need to do that.

• 1:36:01Cameron Hanes?

  I

• 1:36:01Speaker 02

  Anybody that's gonna come out here has a fairly good idea on what kind of person you are.

• 1:36:06Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 1:36:07Speaker 02

  In my opinion, at least.

• 1:36:09Cameron Hanes?

  Maybe, maybe, but uh.

• 1:36:10Speaker 02

  I mean, I I'm not telling you to stop doing this.

• 1:36:12Cameron Hanes?

  No, I

• 1:36:13Speaker 02

  This is sweet.

• 1:36:13Cameron Hanes?

  I just love, I just love doing it also. I mean, I love, you know, I wanted to run with you. You're the best, you know, multi-day ultra marathoner in the world. And it's like, what I want to learn from you and get better and and, you know, try to, you know, talking to you the whole time and just trying to pick up tips and things that'll help my life. And I like your demeanor too. So I'm like, I'm trying to get, get better from my guests. It's like, I always say it's selfish. It's like, people think that, oh, I get a bug that it's like, no, I'm doing this for me.

• 1:36:47Cameron Hanes?

  This isn't about you. I'm not, I'm not that good. But I just love sharing it with people my life.

• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  Well, it's great. It was fun. And I mean, I want you to be honest, how much of you like slightly wanted to put me in my place on a couple of these runs? Okay, this guy thinks he's good at two.

• 1:37:05Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:37:06Speaker 02

  I want him to like.

• 1:37:08Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:37:08Speaker 02

  Is there a small part where you're just like, let's see, let's see if he thinks he can do something like this?

• 1:37:15Cameron Hanes?

  No, I don't, I don't, I don't want to, I mean, I have had people here that I did want to do that, but not you. Not

• 1:37:23Speaker 02

  Honestly?

• 1:37:24Cameron Hanes?

  No, no, no.

• 1:37:25Speaker 02

  I want to be offended if you did.

• 1:37:26Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:37:27Speaker 02

  Because it's good to be put in your place sometimes.

• 1:37:28Cameron Hanes?

  No, I mean.

• 1:37:31Cameron Hanes?

  That's what people deserve to be put in their place. You know what I mean?

• 1:37:34Speaker 02

  But it makes you better.

• 1:37:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but.

• 1:37:36Speaker 02

  Like after last night, I was like, okay, maybe like once a month, I should try racing a mile.

• 1:37:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no.

• 1:37:43Speaker 02

  I think this could benefit me.

• 1:37:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I think it would benefit you, but no, I never have a plan on, I mean, I don't want to say never because there are, there are people here who I know have talked shit about me. And it's been in the past, but I never forgive people to talk shit. And so I'm just like, I remember what you said and you're gonna pay for that.

• 1:38:07Cameron Hanes?

  So, but that, that's not you.

• 1:38:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:38:09Cameron Hanes?

  And, uh, no, with, like, with anybody else, like with you or Jeff or like, uh,

• 1:38:15Cameron Hanes?

  like any of these, like people who I look up to in the sport, I just want to get some miles in.

• 1:38:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:38:22Cameron Hanes?

  Uh, that's it. That's it. And, you know, I'm competitive. I don't want to, I don't want to be the guy like everybody's waiting for. So I wanted, I want to have a good performance out there, but I don't, yeah, I'm not trying to send a message other than on some people.

• 1:38:39Speaker 02

  Well, I didn't mean to send a message, but.

• 1:38:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:43Speaker 02

  Just like.

• 1:38:44Cameron Hanes?

  What I like, okay, I'll, I'll be honest. What I like is, uh, I just want to know what you're capable of. Like when Rachel came out, you know, she's top of the world right now. I didn't know she was fast. So I'm like, we ran on, on that road, like where I think we ran maybe five twenties. I can't remember.

• 1:39:03Speaker 02

  To Piska?

• 1:39:05Cameron Hanes?

  Um, going to like where we met him at Lane.

• 1:39:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:39:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, like on that, uh, kind of that, remember I said be careful?

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  Downhill, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:13Cameron Hanes?

  So she ran five twenties there too. And I just, I thought that was cool. I'm like, shit, I didn't know you had that speed. So same with you. It's like, I just want, I like doing stuff to see like, I just want to know, know more about you. It's like, I didn't know you were that fast.

• 1:39:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:39:29Cameron Hanes?

  And so that's cool.

• 1:39:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:39:30Cameron Hanes?

  So I like doing, I like doing the climbs. There's that, that I always do that same from Blatton Heights to Piska with pretty much all the good runners. And then I just wanted, so I can learn like, what are they good at? What are, you know? And not even like a test, but I think it's just cool to see that you can run that fast and like Rachel could run that fast. I talked to Courtney and, you know, asked what her fastest mile was and she said like 504 or something. I was just like, what?

• 1:39:57Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 1:39:57Cameron Hanes?

  So I just love learning stuff about that though.

• 1:40:00Speaker 02

  So she could have beat you last night. Or no, what? I guess.

• 1:40:05Cameron Hanes?

  No, yeah, for sure. I think she said 504.

• 1:40:08Speaker 02

  And you ended up getting like 506?

• 1:40:09Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. I saw that Mike put up that he got 506 and he beat me. So maybe I got 507.

• 1:40:16Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:40:17Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know.

• 1:40:17Speaker 02

  So she's gonna beat you by three seconds?

• 1:40:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, she could have. Yeah. Yeah. I know. She is fast, but and then it doesn't make it as surprising when you see how good she did at C I M. You know, that 238 marathon. I thought she was just like this mountain, kind of slow grind out eight and a half minute miles. No, she is fast, dude.

• 1:40:38Speaker 02

  I mean, I think the lesson that we're, that I'm realizing right now is if you want to win even a 200 mile race, you gotta have some speed. Rachel Courtney.

• 1:40:47Cameron Hanes?

  It feels like, I don't know how fast Killian is. Do you?

• 1:40:51Speaker 02

  I don't.

• 1:40:52Cameron Hanes?

  Cause he seems very, just very durable.

• 1:40:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's strong. He does a lot of weightlifting.

• 1:40:56Cameron Hanes?

  And he's strong. So I think that is a, for multi-day, that's huge.

• 1:41:02Cameron Hanes?

  But if he has speed on top of it, yeah, it's no wonder he's having this success. But I, I just, so that's why he, he came out. I don't think we did. I think it was before I was kind of doing track workouts when he was here or, but we never did any track stuff.

• 1:41:17Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:41:17Cameron Hanes?

  So that's like, I kind of missed, I would have liked, I would like to know that about him. That, that's why I like to do this stuff. Just so I know.

• 1:41:24Speaker 02

  Tell us, Killian. What do you do? How fast can you do a mile?

• 1:41:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And we'll show up to the all comers meet, race against kids. It's fun.

• 1:41:33Speaker 02

  Next year?

• 1:41:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause that's over. Yeah.

• 1:41:35Cameron Hanes?

  Let's do it.

• 1:41:36Speaker 02

  What did you and Jeff do? What was the track workout you did with Jeff?

• 1:41:39Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I think we just did, we, Truett was here. So.

• 1:41:43Speaker 02

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:41:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, Truett was doing.

• 1:41:47Cameron Hanes?

  What, what? Did we do a race too with Truett?

• 1:41:51Cameron Hanes?

  Was it the daffodil run?

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  You ended up doing daffodil, but for the track workout, it was just like you guys hung with Truett doing his, I think 74s.

• 1:42:01Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, 400s?

• 1:42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So we were just doing 400s with Truett.

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  And, and you dropped Jeff?

• 1:42:07Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, he was right there, basically. He was right there, but uh.

• 1:42:12Cameron Hanes?

  It's just different sprinting a 400.

• 1:42:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but we did. Me and Jeff ran the same from Blatton Heist to Spencer's like you and I did. And then instead of going over to Piska, we dropped down to South Eugene Track. So it was like.

• 1:42:25Speaker 02

  And then you did the track workout like right then?

• 1:42:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:28Speaker 02

  So he didn't even get a day break?

• 1:42:29Cameron Hanes?

  No, it was like a kind of a nine mile run to the track and then we did the track workout.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 1:42:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but he's good. He's a good. I mean, he's a good runner. Obviously, he, you know, won 30 some 100 mile races. So.

• 1:42:43Speaker 02

  He's got some speed too.

• 1:42:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, he does.

• 1:42:44Speaker 02

  Some fast, shorter stuff.

• 1:42:46Cameron Hanes?

  So I like, I just like learning that about people and just seeing what they can do. And yeah, it's just fun.

• 1:42:54Speaker 02

  Well, I think I guess in the future, then if I really want to get pushed, I need to start talking crap about you.

• 1:42:59Cameron Hanes?

  Do it.

• 1:43:00Speaker 02

  So that you can remember that and put me through something.

• 1:43:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, it's all, it's all love. I like, I like getting pushed myself too. And it's like, cause like when these Olympians come here, obviously I can't hang with them, but I try. I want to see how, I like seeing how good people are, you know? Cause it's like, we just want to, we're always wondering like how we stack up to other people or I am. And, you know, the Olympians are, it's, it's amazing what they can do. But what I've learned too is like, they are really good at what they do all the time. So you take them off the track and put them in the mountains. It's different. You know what I mean? Is you have to adapt to that type of challenge also.

• 1:43:46Cameron Hanes?

  And if they're just on the track all the time, they're the best in the world at that, but it's hard to be good at everything. You know, I was mentioning like from a marathon to a multi day, it's hard for one person to be good at all those things.

• 1:43:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:43:59Cameron Hanes?

  And we talked about like Jim Walmsley, Walmsley?

• 1:44:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:05Cameron Hanes?

  Best ever like Western States athlete, like Olympic trials qualifier in the half marathon, so much speed. Would he be good a multi day or would he fall apart? I don't know.

• 1:44:17Speaker 02

  I don't know either.

• 1:44:18Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, cause the sleep, sleep deprivation, the calories, the just fatigue. There's people who crush hundreds who might not be good in those situations.

• 1:44:29Speaker 02

  What I think for him was the, the hard thing would be, could he slow down a little bit?

• 1:44:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:33Speaker 02

  Cause I don't know, maybe he could prove me wrong and he could go out with his speed for 200 miles and not blow up. I don't know, but I think he couldn't do that. Yeah.

• 1:44:41Cameron Hanes?

  That'd be unlikely. So can he just grind out the slow, long miles?

• 1:44:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Or he just get bored and hate that.

• 1:44:47Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:44:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:48Cameron Hanes?

  Cause he's used to like, he runs like a gazelle. Like I remember that first time him coming through Forest Hill, like probably the first time he won and he had like this holy shirt on.

• 1:44:59Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:45:00Cameron Hanes?

  And they're like, and it's like, I'm like, people run that fast?

• 1:45:04Speaker 02

  Just like hop.

• 1:45:05Cameron Hanes?

  I know. So light and the strides were like as long as this room. I'm like, okay. I will never be like that.

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  I know, me either.

• 1:45:14Cameron Hanes?

  That seems like a different species of runner.

• 1:45:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:16Cameron Hanes?

  But can he dial it back? Because like even if his, I think he's got the F K T or somebody does, but in the rim to rim to rim in the canyon. It's like six hours or something.

• 1:45:28Speaker 02

  I think it's faster than that.

• 1:45:30Cameron Hanes?

  Five hours?

• 1:45:32Speaker 02

  I mean, I want to say four.

• 1:45:34Cameron Hanes?

  What?

• 1:45:35Speaker 02

  Not like in the fours, high fours. I want to say high fours.

• 1:45:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So.

• 1:45:40Speaker 02

  Can you Google that?

• 1:45:41Cameron Hanes?

  Me and Courtney did that and I was pretty beat up and it was like 11 hours.

• 1:45:49Speaker 02

  Rim to rim to rim?

• 1:45:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it's hard.

• 1:45:51Cameron Hanes?

  It's so hard.

• 1:45:52Speaker 02

  That climb up South Kaibab is so steep.

• 1:45:54Cameron Hanes?

  It was so hot that afternoon because we started early, got to the other, got to the north side, then came back. Sun is just baking. They got the signs of people puking and gonna die. That's how I felt.

• 1:46:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, people die there.

• 1:46:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure. Like 12 a year, but, and he did that in half the time, but so that made me wonder, well, what about middle of the night on night two with no sleep?

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. Cause we were asking that, has he ever had to go over 24 hours?

• 1:46:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:46:24Speaker 02

  I don't remember if he has or not.

• 1:46:26Cameron Hanes?

  So I was, I was kind of surprised, like Dan Green is very fast and he won Coca dona.

• 1:46:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. First try. He crushed it.

• 1:46:33Cameron Hanes?

  So it was like that, he, that seems rare. What'd you find?

• 1:46:38Speaker 01

  Uh, the male FKT of rim to rim to rim is Jim Walmsley at five fifty-five. And then the women's is Cat Bradley, seven fifty-two.

• 1:46:50Cameron Hanes?

  That's good. Well, so six out, I mean, cat.

• 1:46:54Speaker 02

  Seven fifty-two?

• 1:46:55Cameron Hanes?

  That under eight hours?

• 1:46:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:57Cameron Hanes?

  That is.

• 1:46:58Speaker 02

  Fifty miles and what is it like?

• 1:47:00Cameron Hanes?

  It's like eleven thousand.

• 1:47:01Speaker 02

  Oh, is it eleven? Wow.

• 1:47:02Cameron Hanes?

  I thi- I think it's like fifty-five up both, or wait.

• 1:47:07Speaker 02

  No, that makes more sense.

• 1:47:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I think it's, I think it's over ten for sure. Yeah.

• 1:47:13Speaker 02

  It's probably just looking like a gazelle going up.

• 1:47:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, Cat can run too. I mean, I think she's been hurt a little bit for a couple of years now, but she's a good runner.

• 1:47:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:21Cameron Hanes?

  I think she won Western when she was twenty-three.

• 1:47:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you're right.

• 1:47:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:27Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, just.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  She has some history.

• 1:47:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but, uh, yeah, I saw it's just, it's just fascinating thinking about like the, the whole, the history of ultra and then like what makes a good runner at each of those distances? And like what makes a good multi-day? What makes you the best? Just toughness, it feels like. Toughness or what is it?

• 1:47:50Speaker 02

  Toughness and speed now.

• 1:47:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, speed.

• 1:47:53Speaker 02

  You gotta be fast.

• 1:47:54Cameron Hanes?

  Don't sleep on, on the dark knight speed. Wait, dark McKnight?

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  Dark McKnight.

• 1:47:59Cameron Hanes?

  Dark McKnight. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:00Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 1:48:01Cameron Hanes?

  You got, uh.

• 1:48:03Speaker 02

  The dark McKnight.

• 1:48:04Cameron Hanes?

  Do you got questions?

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got a couple.

• 1:48:06Cameron Hanes?

  All right.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  Uh, but because it's been so wholesome, I had to.

• 1:48:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, this has been pretty wholesome.

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  Come up with new terms for the usual first question.

• 1:48:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, there you go.

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  So. Kiss, marry.

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  Hmm, unalive.

• 1:48:25Cameron Hanes?

  Hug.

• 1:48:26Speaker 01

  Hug.

• 1:48:26Cameron Hanes?

  Hug. And go steady.

• 1:48:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:32Speaker 01

  You understand the rules of the game?

• 1:48:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:48:35Cameron Hanes?

  Go ahead. Kiss, marry, what's the other one?

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  Uh, unalive.

• 1:48:39Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, kill. Yeah, we don't, we can't say kill.

• 1:48:41Speaker 01

  Uh, Tahoe, Cocodona and Bigfoot.

• 1:48:45Speaker 02

  Kiss, marry or unalive?

• 1:48:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so, so you're never doing one again.

• 1:48:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:50Cameron Hanes?

  You're gonna do one forever because you're married.

• 1:48:52Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:48:53Cameron Hanes?

  Or you're, or you're gonna get

• 1:48:54Speaker 02

  A little peck.

• 1:48:55Cameron Hanes?

  A little peck, just one time.

• 1:48:56Speaker 02

  Which ones?

• 1:48:57Speaker 01

  Tahoe, Cocodona and Bigfoot.

• 1:49:00Speaker 02

  Ooh, do I go first?

• 1:49:03Cameron Hanes?

  You're, you're the only one going.

• 1:49:06Speaker 02

  Um, unalive, gosh, I like them all. Why didn't you like throw in something else?

• 1:49:13Cameron Hanes?

  It's a one mile track workout.

• 1:49:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:18Speaker 02

  Or Frank's 20 mile 10 time loop 200 or something like that.

• 1:49:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, right, right.

• 1:49:23Speaker 02

  Um, unalive

• 1:49:28Speaker 02

  would probably be

• 1:49:32Speaker 02

  Bigfoot.

• 1:49:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So that never again there, but which one are you doing every year? Which one are you marrying?

• 1:49:38Speaker 02

  Cocodona.

• 1:49:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:40Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:49:41Speaker 02

  I'm giving Tahoe a little kiss.

• 1:49:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that makes sense. Cocodona is tough to pass up these days.

• 1:49:46Speaker 02

  But if I'm a bad person, even though I'm married to Cocodona, I'm gonna kiss Tahoe every year still.

• 1:49:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, it's not really cheating.

• 1:49:56Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:49:57Cameron Hanes?

  Because, yeah, it's not cheating.

• 1:49:59Speaker 02

  I mean, if we're gonna put Cocodona as a person, it's Jamil.

• 1:50:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:03Speaker 02

  And I don't think Jamil is gonna be mad at me for being slightly unfaithful to him.

• 1:50:07Cameron Hanes?

  I don't think so. He seems pretty understanding.

• 1:50:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, he does.

• 1:50:11Cameron Hanes?

  I love, I love Jamil. I love, I love all the race directors because it's such a hard fricking job.

• 1:50:17Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:50:17Cameron Hanes?

  I mean.

• 1:50:18Speaker 02

  Well, Steve, we gotta give Steve Aderholz a shout out too.

• 1:50:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, Steve, yeah, I would, everybody talks about, everybody talks about Jamil, but yeah, Steve is amazing.

• 1:50:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:26Cameron Hanes?

  Is, I think he's a race director, is he?

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  He is Jamil. He, he's the race director.

• 1:50:30Cameron Hanes?

  What is Jamil? The founder?

• 1:50:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:34Speaker 02

  CEO, I don't know. I think Steve used to have history at Ragnar. He used to be like the, basically the head of Trail Ragnar. So he has quite a bit of experience with this.

• 1:50:44Cameron Hanes?

  And they've done, you know, the live stream there is like, people love that stuff.

• 1:50:50Speaker 02

  That's one reason I don't want to do the race. Cause like, everybody's telling me like, oh, I can't turn it off. And I'm like, I love this sport, but you just sit and watch this for five days?

• 1:50:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:59Speaker 02

  That's, it sounds boring.

• 1:51:01Cameron Hanes?

  So are you going to try to have a live stream of yours? Cause isn't that expensive?

• 1:51:05Speaker 02

  I'm sure it is. I don't think I can.

• 1:51:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:07Speaker 02

  Cause it's, I mean, it's in the mountains. Like there's no service.

• 1:51:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but with that.

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  Starlink?

• 1:51:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, the Starlink.

• 1:51:15Speaker 02

  Maybe in four years when it's profitable.

• 1:51:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:17Speaker 02

  I don't think I could do that the first couple of years.

• 1:51:19Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha. Yeah, I, I get it. It's like, people are so used to it now.

• 1:51:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:23Cameron Hanes?

  Cause now they'll be like, where's the live, live tracking or whatever?

• 1:51:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:27Cameron Hanes?

  But.

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  Freaking Jamil.

• 1:51:29Cameron Hanes?

  Well, no, I guess the live tracking is different than the live stream.

• 1:51:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:32Cameron Hanes?

  So you'll do the live tracking.

• 1:51:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:34Cameron Hanes?

  You'll have the GPS.

• 1:51:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll do that, but I don't think I can live stream it.

• 1:51:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's expensive, I heard.

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:40Cameron Hanes?

  What else you got?

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  Uh, I have to change his question too, now that I have upgraded. But is a hundred K a real ultra?

• 1:51:50Cameron Hanes?

  Oh yeah. So the back, do you know the backstory?

• 1:51:53Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:51:55Cameron Hanes?

  He, he's like always self-deprecating, well, she should be. Cause he's a piece of shit. But, um, he, cause he did a 50K. He said that, that can't count as an ultra, cause he did it and he's not a good runner. He said it's like a marathon with a wrong turn. So, because he did a 50K, that shouldn't be an ultra. But now he did a hundred K. So now in his self-deprecating manner, he's saying, because he did a hundred K, that's not a real ultra.

• 1:52:24Speaker 02

  And so you're asking me that?

• 1:52:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:26Cameron Hanes?

  Should it count? If you agree.

• 1:52:28Speaker 02

  No, I don't agree. I can't say that.

• 1:52:32Cameron Hanes?

  You can. I say, the only thing that should count as a ultra is 200 plus miles. Everything else is a fun run.

• 1:52:43Cameron Hanes?

  So Jim isn't even an ultra runner.

• 1:52:46Speaker 02

  He's not listening to her thought her.

• 1:52:46Cameron Hanes?

  No, no.

• 1:52:47Speaker 02

  No?

• 1:52:49Speaker 02

  I'm trying to think of like a witty thing to say about.

• 1:52:52Speaker 01

  What about like a 50K and I have a new argument. So with every distance you have it almost, I mean, pretty much doubles. So like 5K is a lot of people's first little race and then it goes to a 10K. And then a 10K after that, you have a half marathon and then obviously double half marathon, you have a full marathon. We can't just add five miles and count a 50K as like the next big step. It's gotta at least be 50.

• 1:53:18Cameron Hanes?

  Cause you've been doubling.

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then if you're at 50, you might as well just add 12 to that. And if I can do it, then it surely doesn't count.

• 1:53:26Speaker 02

  Well, by that math, a 50 miler is not even an ultra. It'd have to be 52 miles. If you're doubling a marathon, 52.4.

• 1:53:35Speaker 01

  There you go. Heard it here first.

• 1:53:39Speaker 02

  Trying to think of something witty I could say about you though to.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  We can cut out the dead space. Take your time.

• 1:53:45Speaker 02

  No, it's okay. I don't have anything. Yes, 100K is an ultra.

• 1:53:50Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, that's your answer.

• 1:53:51Speaker 02

  Ask a better question.

• 1:53:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, idiot.

• 1:53:54Speaker 02

  There's the witty thing. Don't ask me dumb questions. You're wasting my time.

• 1:53:58Cameron Hanes?

  See what I'm talking about? Makes me sick. What else you got?

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  I got one more. Um, I'm sure you've talked a lot about this on other podcasts, but just surprised you haven't really touched on it here. But as far as like when you broke your back and you were told you were never going to walk again. Um, and here you are running 200 mile races. Does that, how often does that still come into your mind when you're out there and you're hurting and you want to quit? And you know, do you think about, I shouldn't even be walking, let alone running these 200 mile races?

• 1:54:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, every race, every race I think about that. Cause like it, when you, when you get put in a spot where you're, where you think you're stuck in a wheelchair or stuck in a bed for the rest of your life, especially at age 22, which is what I was, like that puts a lot of things into perspective. Cause like up to that point in my life, I was as lazy as they come.

• 1:54:53Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, every time I want to quit, and I mean, even more so after last year with my herniated disc.

• 1:55:00Speaker 02

  I kind of got to relive it because honestly herniating my disc was worse than breaking my back. Like, I couldn't even walk, dude. Like, I would stand up straight and just the pain, like, from the nerve. I didn't show you the MRIs, but like, like, you know, you have this thing of nerves and my disc was pressing into them so much. With the MRI, you could barely even see my nerves.

• 1:55:25Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 1:55:25Speaker 02

  And so just the standing up straight just killed my legs so much that like, I would go sit at it like. We put my kids in a run club every summer where they like run. It's a third of a mile track for 30 minutes and they just accumulate miles throughout the summer and get prizes. And like, usually I'd go there with them and run with them and I couldn't do that last year. Like, I'd go to the park. And I just have to like, sit hunched over on a bench and watch them do it. I couldn't even walk.

• 1:55:56Cameron Hanes?

  That, that is depressing.

• 1:55:57Speaker 02

  I was so depressed.

• 1:55:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:59Speaker 02

  Like, my wife had to help get me out. Like, I'd snuggle with my kids before they'd go to bed. And then there's some nights my wife had to come help me out of bed because I couldn't sit myself up.

• 1:56:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:07Speaker 02

  And so like, that's honestly why my fires come back. Because I got to relive breaking my back in a way. But yeah, every time, like at the Arizona Monster, there was a couple of times I wanted to quit and I was like, no, like. I much rather would be here than sitting on a bench, watching my kids run miles because I can't do diddly squat.

• 1:56:30Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:56:30Speaker 02

  So I think about it a lot.

• 1:56:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, peaks and valleys. We're not always at the peak. So the valleys we can learn from too. And then kind of look back and appreciate the peaks. You know, where, where if you're always at up top, how would you appreciate being down?

• 1:56:47Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:56:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. But it's a, yeah, I was. You kind of mentioned it earlier. I was just thinking about this. How much do you listen to like the? I know when people mention me on a podcast, I'm just like, wait, what did you just say? You were talking about me? But how do you listen to other podcasts like talking about like predictions for races and like? Puts, does that put a chip on your shoulder sometimes?

• 1:57:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. If you, I, I really think I could have done a lot better at Coca Dona. I mean, obviously if I had fresher legs. Um, but I, I mean, you calling me at Coca Dona helped a lot. But there was that thing in the back of my head. I was like, these guys think I can't get in the top 10. Like I'm going to prove them wrong.

• 1:57:34Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:57:35Speaker 02

  And so it's the same thing. Like I did that zero calorie 100 again, but with 24 hours. I'm like, they, they don't think I can do this again. They think I'm unhealthy. I'm going to do it again. I'll, I guess I'll podium too. And like really rub it in their face. Like, yeah, I, that is one thing about my personality is if you say something about me, like I'm going to really try my hardest to prove you wrong.

• 1:57:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:58Speaker 02

  That fires me up.

• 1:57:59Cameron Hanes?

  That's what I was, me too. I mean, it's like, and people, I know that sometimes you, like I've mentioned people on here too. And it's not like I'm just want to rake them over the coals, but to them that hear their name, they know every word associated with whatever I said, right?

• 1:58:16Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:58:17Cameron Hanes?

  It's like, and I'm the same way too. If I listen, like, cause I had this scandal come up recently. And so I was listening to these podcasts and I'm just be like, okay, I thought, I thought we were cool, but guess not.

• 1:58:32Speaker 02

  Watch out.

• 1:58:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So it's a, I just didn't know how much you, how much attention you put into that, but.

• 1:58:38Speaker 02

  No, I seek it.

• 1:58:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:40Speaker 02

  And I think it's Goggins, right? That like records.

• 1:58:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. People talking shit.

• 1:58:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:45Cameron Hanes?

  And then he plays it.

• 1:58:46Speaker 02

  I don't do that, but I write, I write stuff on a whiteboard in my room.

• 1:58:49Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, nice.

• 1:58:50Speaker 02

  First thing I see when I wake up.

• 1:58:51Cameron Hanes?

  Like what's, what's one example of what you wrote up there?

• 1:58:56Speaker 02

  Well, the funny thing is, is this person was actually right.

• 1:59:00Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:59:01Speaker 02

  But like, you know, I had, I had the Arizona monster, Coca dona and the triple crown.

• 1:59:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:08Speaker 02

  And somebody commented on a post that said, like, this is a hefty goal that you have. I predict you're only going to finish two of those. And then I finished Arizona and Coca dona and then got pulled from Tahoe.

• 1:59:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:23Speaker 02

  And then I ended up deferring the other two to another year.

• 1:59:26Cameron Hanes?

  They were.

• 1:59:27Speaker 02

  So they were right.

• 1:59:28Cameron Hanes?

  But, but, but three of those, there's, there's like an asterix.

• 1:59:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:34Cameron Hanes?

  Got hurt.

• 1:59:34Speaker 02

  I'm coming back.

• 1:59:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And you're coming back. So.

• 1:59:37Speaker 02

  And I have a replacement.

• 1:59:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's not like you tried and DNF'd, right? So yeah, they weren't a hundred percent right.

• 1:59:43Speaker 02

  They made me quit.

• 1:59:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. They put that in the, in the zeitgeist.

• 1:59:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:48Cameron Hanes?

  That's what it's called.

• 1:59:49Speaker 02

  But yeah, I had that written on my whiteboard.

• 1:59:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:52Speaker 02

  And now it's still there. So I get to see that every morning and be like, yeah, they're, yeah, I mean, I've left it up there. So I can like, they were right.

• 1:59:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:00Speaker 02

  But now I'm going to go do better at tour.

• 2:00:02Cameron Hanes?

  Wouldn't it? Yeah.

• 2:00:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:04Cameron Hanes?

  Well, that's, I mean, fair play to them, I guess. Was it like a, a podcast host or just a person?

• 2:00:12Speaker 02

  Just a, I have it. That's what it says. It says, I predict you're only finishing two. And then it says, random Instagram user.

• 2:00:18Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay. Okay.

• 2:00:19Speaker 02

  It's just a random person.

• 2:00:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Cause, cause I, I listened to the podcast where they're, they're supposed to be like fair and objective. And then when they're not, then it's a little different when somebody just, normal person is just talking shit. I'm just like, ah, whatever. I can, but when somebody who like knows the sport is like, I remember that.

• 2:00:39Speaker 02

  We're a little opposite.

• 2:00:40Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 2:00:41Speaker 02

  It's the random, the random nobody that fires me up more than.

• 2:00:44Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:00:45Speaker 02

  Like, if, if somebody, like, I'll just say his name, like Finn at the single shot podcast, he is the one of the ones that said, I'm not getting in the top 10. And like, when he said that, I was like, he's got a good reason.

• 2:00:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:56Speaker 02

  But I do want to prove him wrong.

• 2:00:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:59Speaker 02

  Like, so it's like, I acknowledge his reasoning and I still want to prove him wrong, but if some random dude says that about me, I'm like, you suck. I'm not, I'm not gonna let you be right about that.

• 2:01:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Finn was one, he's got one of my favorite podcasts, but he was, did have like, I think he's getting pushed back because they were sort of said that like I'm been influential in the space or whatever. And then people are saying like, oh, doper, like all that. And so then he had to walk that back and be like, you know, he's like, there's no place in Ultra for doping. And like,

• 2:01:34Speaker 02

  Finn said that?

• 2:01:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I'm like, come on, obviously. But can we look, I mean, come on, can we fucking look at this a little bit and just like, so anyway, I just remembered he said that like, because he's kind of like addressing the, the, the crowd.

• 2:01:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:50Cameron Hanes?

  That we're talking shit. And I'm just like, I don't know. I wish you would have been a little more objective about it, but whatever. I put myself out there. It's, it's my fault.

• 2:02:01Speaker 02

  Can I say something about that?

• 2:02:02Cameron Hanes?

  Sure.

• 2:02:04Speaker 02

  Um, you're a freaking cheater. Just kidding.

• 2:02:07Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:02:08Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:02:08Cameron Hanes?

  That's a wrap.

• 2:02:09Speaker 02

  That's a wrap. That's the only quote from this, this podcast I want out there.

• 2:02:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no. I mean, yeah, you, you can say whatever you want. I'm good.

• 2:02:18Speaker 02

  I said it.

• 2:02:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Perfect. Love it.

• 2:02:20Speaker 02

  No, I, because you're honest. I want to be honest. I've taken BPC 157. Um, and if I get canceled for that, I don't care. Um, people I coach have taken it because I recommended it. Like, I think, and to give some context, like, and the people who want to cancel us for this, like, they don't care about the context.

• 2:02:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:02:41Speaker 02

  But for those who do care about the context, um, I heard about it because I lift weights. And last year with my herniated disc, a lot of my gym friends said, you should try this. Like, I had a bad surgery, or sorry, a bad shoulder for years. I took this and my shoulder's fine. And I kept pushing it off because not because it was on Wada's list. I didn't even know it was on Wada's list.

• 2:03:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:09Speaker 02

  And that's another element to the story. I don't, I do 200 mile races and I know people are gonna say, cause I'm a coach, I should know Wada's list.

• 2:03:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:17Speaker 02

  But because that's not a thing in 200s, I don't study that list.

• 2:03:22Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:03:23Speaker 02

  So, but it's not approved by the FDA. There's not a lot on it. So I was like, I, I don't want to touch this stuff. And so I kept putting it off. I kept putting it off. And then I got set for surgery on my back. And that was a wake up call. I was like, I, I've had back surgery. I was a very unique experience where my surgery didn't put me out forever. Like quite the opposite. I ran a 10K five weeks after I broke my back.

• 2:03:51Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  But I know that's not always gonna be the case.

• 2:03:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:56Speaker 02

  And so I'm desperate. I don't want to get surgery. And so I talked to my gym friend. I was like, where, tell me about this BPC 157 stuff. He connected me with a nurse, a registered nurse. She came to my house. She taught me about it. She mixed it up for me. Told me how much to take a day and that I should stop taking it in eight weeks. So I ended up taking two injections a day for eight weeks and I was able to cancel my surgery.

• 2:04:22Cameron Hanes?

  That's amazing.

• 2:04:23Speaker 02

  Like that stuff did wonders for me.

• 2:04:25Cameron Hanes?

  It, it should be celebrated.

• 2:04:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:26Cameron Hanes?

  Because a, a surgery gone wrong, maybe you'd never run again.

• 2:04:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:04:31Cameron Hanes?

  And is that what people want?

• 2:04:33Speaker 02

  There might be some people that want that.

• 2:04:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And

• 2:04:36Speaker 02

  Clean way to do it.

• 2:04:37Cameron Hanes?

  I just don't get it. And it's, you know, and they talk about this FDA thing. Like, do you know how much poison is FDA approved?

• 2:04:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:04:46Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, so what does that mean? But

• 2:04:48Speaker 02

  But it does make you kind of scared. Like at least it made me scared.

• 2:04:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, you want it, right. You want there to be like a bunch of human trials and like, oh, it's safe and effect. But they said the COVID vaccine was safe and effective. So does it matter what they say? I don't know.

• 2:05:04Speaker 02

  I don't, I mean, I don't trust the FDA and a lot of stuff, but for that I did.

• 2:05:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:08Speaker 02

  Cause it's so unknown.

• 2:05:08Cameron Hanes?

  I understand.

• 2:05:09Speaker 02

  But like, I didn't even, like, the only reason I found out it was like, this is all before your scandal.

• 2:05:17Speaker 02

  Um, but the only reason I found out was on WADA is I started having people messaging me on Instagram because like I canceled my surgery and then I announced I'm doing the monster Coca-Cola and the triple crown.

• 2:05:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:29Speaker 02

  So I had person after person message me saying, hey, like, I thought you were getting surgery. What changed? Um, I, I have back problems. Like, what did you do?

• 2:05:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:37Speaker 02

  And there's two things that I said, like, there's this book that I read that essentially told me that all of my back problems are emotional.

• 2:05:45Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:05:47Speaker 02

  Um, so I

• 2:05:47Cameron Hanes?

  That disc pressure on your nerves was emotional?

• 2:05:50Speaker 02

  That it lasted so long.

• 2:05:51Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I see. Gotcha.

• 2:05:52Speaker 02

  It's a doctor that was like the in, like a disc injury should only last a certain amount of time, but if it lasts more than that, it's most likely emotional.

• 2:05:59Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 2:06:01Speaker 02

  That's

• 2:06:01Cameron Hanes?

  I hadn't heard that.

• 2:06:02Speaker 02

  Um, so anyway, so I was like, I read this book and I took this peptide called BPC one five seven. And then they're like, oh, cool. Thanks. And so I recommended that to like 10 people. And then one person was like, BPC one five seven. You know, that's on WADA's list, right? I was like, oh, no, I didn't know that. I'm sorry. And then I pulled up WADA's list and that's when I like started studying it and, um, I mean, I'll admit another thing I dope on.

• 2:06:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:27Speaker 02

  I have a medical marijuana card because I have insomnia and THC helps me sleep at night.

• 2:06:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:32Speaker 02

  And so I learned like, oh, I'm also doing this every night.

• 2:06:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:36Speaker 02

  I'm going to get in trouble for that. So like I get like, and I want to be objective. Like I get the crowd that's saying you need to follow the rules.

• 2:06:47Speaker 02

  But I also get the crowd like me and you where it's like, if I can avoid surgery.

• 2:06:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:53Speaker 02

  Then I'm gonna do something that's legal with the world.

• 2:06:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it is. It's a hundred percent legal for rate. It's just like, if you're going to the Olympics, you can't.

• 2:07:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:07:05Cameron Hanes?

  If you're prize money, I guess, whatever, but

• 2:07:08Speaker 02

  Or if Coca-Cola is going to test you.

• 2:07:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:10Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm not going to do it.

• 2:07:11Cameron Hanes?

  That's the rules. Okay, fine. Yeah.

• 2:07:13Speaker 02

  But I wasn't signed up for Coca-Cola. I was just trying to get my back better.

• 2:07:18Cameron Hanes?

  Exactly. Yeah, it's a, and you know, cutting on you should be the last resort. You know, that surgery, I know doctors love to do it because they make money.

• 2:07:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:07:29Cameron Hanes?

  You know, they don't make money if you're not getting surgery.

• 2:07:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:07:31Cameron Hanes?

  So they love to do what they do. And so they're going to recommend surgery. But, I mean, I did this from my foot where I was trying to avoid surgery. Like I had surgery on my thumb from Coca Dona from falling after I hit my head. And it's still like that joint, you see how much bigger that is right here?

• 2:07:48Speaker 02

  That's pretty nasty.

• 2:07:49Cameron Hanes?

  And, but it was the same surgery I was going to get on my foot where the, the, a piece of bone broke off and the tendon was going to have to be, this was a ligament, but have to be stretched back. It might work, it might not. But if, if my thumb is like that swollen, what would my foot have been like? And that's going to affect my cadence, my running.

• 2:08:07Speaker 02

  Your gait.

• 2:08:08Cameron Hanes?

  That's not, to me, it wasn't worth the risk. And I'm like, no, I'm going to try anything I can to avoid surgery. And look, I'm running better than I ever have right now. So that should be like, oh, that's okay. Good job.

• 2:08:21Speaker 02

  Good job.

• 2:08:21Cameron Hanes?

  Amazing. That's awesome. But instead it's like, no, you're a cheater. It's like, what?

• 2:08:26Speaker 02

  Well, and in your case too, your doctor recommended it.

• 2:08:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's all through a doctor. Yeah.

• 2:08:31Speaker 02

  And who in their right mind, when they're trying to avoid surgery and a doctor recommends something is going to be like, well, hold up, let me pull up WADA's list and make sure that that's not on WADA's list.

• 2:08:41Cameron Hanes?

  No, because even Conor McGregor, he talked about this too, because they were trying to get him, because he got out of, and the fighters can get out of the USADA testing pool. And then when they come back, they just have to test clean for six months. And so he got out because he, he snapped his leg and he was doing, he said, he didn't even know what they put in his leg or did to him. He didn't care. He goes, I just want to be able to, I want to be healthy.

• 2:09:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:04Cameron Hanes?

  Do whatever it takes.

• 2:09:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:05Cameron Hanes?

  I don't care what, he, he says, he said, I don't even know what they did. So, but he's healthy now and he's fighting again. And he's like, that's all I cared about is that I can, you know, I put my, my life and my body on the line for this and I want to be able to play with my kids. So, you know, when I'm retired, so why wouldn't I do whatever it takes to, to be healthy? And that's all we did. We're just trying to avoid surgery. We want to do what we love. We're not going to the Olympics. We're not taking prize money from anybody. And it's not part of the rules that we, of the races we signed up for. So what are we talking about?

• 2:09:39Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:09:40Cameron Hanes?

  And it's a, if they, and you just said it too, and I've said it before too. If they were part of the rules, then I'd, I'd follow those rules.

• 2:09:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:09:49Cameron Hanes?

  I, I, I mean, I've followed rules my whole life. So it was like, that's no problem. I just need to know what they are.

• 2:09:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:56Cameron Hanes?

  And yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, I don't know.

• 2:10:00Speaker 02

  I know there's no way to monitor this, but like, and maybe you disagree with me, but if somebody is like, getting BPC 157 or something like that, and they're just like shooting it up every night because of like, oh, I just want to recover.

• 2:10:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:12Speaker 02

  They're not injured or whatever.

• 2:10:14Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:10:14Speaker 02

  Okay, that might be some cheat, like.

• 2:10:18Cameron Hanes?

  I don't think that it's, I mean, we've had people say it's a powerful PED. It's not, it's not a performance enhancer. It's like injury recovery. It's like.

• 2:10:28Speaker 02

  I do understand Sage though, that recovery is a part of performance.

• 2:10:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah.

• 2:10:33Speaker 02

  And if that is helping you recover faster and you're not like facing some kind of injury, then okay, that might be some cheat, like a form of cheating.

• 2:10:42Cameron Hanes?

  I think they're trying to say like, you could have a super hard training day, one day, take something and then train just as hard the next day and not be fatigued.

• 2:10:51Speaker 02

  You can't do that with BPC 157.

• 2:10:53Cameron Hanes?

  Right. And so that's what I'm saying. It's different than that. That's why that, to me, I look at, that's performance enhancing. Where, and Joe explained this to me too, where it's just basically helping repair tendons and ligaments.

• 2:11:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:11:05Cameron Hanes?

  It's not so much like the, the actual mu, like muscle, muscular. Right. And speed and things like that. So it's, it's a little different. I mean, there's a lot different, but there's a difference. And that's why I say, can we look at this stuff with nuance? Because even like UFC used to go through USADA, but they wanted their fighters to be able to take BPC. USADA said, no, it's banned. So UFC went. They're like doing their own thing.

• 2:11:32Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:11:33Cameron Hanes?

  And they're just like.

• 2:11:33Speaker 02

  Good for them.

• 2:11:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, there's like, no, we think this is a good, you know, this peptide is good and we want it to be available. So.

• 2:11:41Speaker 02

  That's what they need to do.

• 2:11:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:42Speaker 02

  And hopefully that happens more so Wada will take it off.

• 2:11:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, eventually it's usually like a money making thing. That they want to be able to control it and things like that. So I don't really know. I don't really know how those lists work. I mean, I tried.

• 2:11:55Speaker 02

  I don't either.

• 2:11:56Cameron Hanes?

  I tried to go look after all this came up. I tried to go look and I still can't even, I wasn't gonna, I don't have time to go through. It's like.

• 2:12:04Speaker 02

  It's a big list.

• 2:12:05Cameron Hanes?

  It's not my job either. It's like, I'm a bow hunter, right? I'm a shitty runner after, shitty racer and a bow hunter. I don't need to study this list. So.

• 2:12:16Speaker 02

  Well, and I asked you this too, like, do mushrooms is a psychedelic. Does that like make your body feel good? I've never done mushrooms.

• 2:12:26Cameron Hanes?

  I'm not sure. I'm not sure what like microdosing, I don't know. I've just heard like microd, I'm not sure.

• 2:12:32Speaker 02

  Cause I asked that, cause like when I found out THC was on the list. I was like, well, wait a minute, like, cause I started getting curious, I started going down this rabbit hole because of your stupid scandal.

• 2:12:40Cameron Hanes?

  I know, sorry.

• 2:12:41Speaker 02

  It's okay. But I was like, well, wait a minute, like Michael Verstig. Everybody loves him.

• 2:12:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:48Speaker 02

  And he openly talks about how he was on mushrooms the year he won Coca Dona.

• 2:12:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:52Speaker 02

  So I'm like, well, wait a minute, like, why aren't people mad at him? And then I find out mushrooms aren't on the list. So I'm like, why is THC on it, but mushrooms aren't on it?

• 2:13:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:02Speaker 02

  Like.

• 2:13:02Cameron Hanes?

  It's weird.

• 2:13:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I just think that like, I, I get the intent and I, I'm supportive. And I've said this before too, and I'm like friends with Emma Coburn, and I know she's raced against people that have been found. You know, that they were doping later down the road after big world championships or Olympics. And it's like 12 years later and then a runner might get a medal they should have got that day because other people ahead of them were doping. I don't want that. That, that would be, that's terrible.

• 2:13:34Speaker 02

  That is.

• 2:13:34Cameron Hanes?

  I want whatever we need to do to avoid that to where people can compete fairly. Do things the right way and everybody's awarded the place they, they deserve, right? And they earned. That's what I want. These multi-day two hundreds aren't that. It's just like, there's people out there doing.

• 2:13:54Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, there's so much pain. Who knows what they're taking to try to try to get past through the pain.

• 2:13:59Speaker 02

  I ran by runners that were smoking THC on the race.

• 2:14:03Cameron Hanes?

  It's it's a different world out there. So to try to apply USADA type testing

• 2:14:11Cameron Hanes?

  to like random races like this, it just doesn't make sense.

• 2:14:15Speaker 02

  No. And they're gonna miss like we talked about this too. Like BPC is out of your system so fast.

• 2:14:20Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:14:21Speaker 02

  Like they're gonna miss a lot of stuff with how fast

• 2:14:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:23Speaker 02

  can be out of your body.

• 2:14:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a but I mean, my thing is like, we're not like, they made it sound like it was some big scandal and like some big cheating like what it's like, no, I don't, I barely know anything about this shit. It's like, yeah, I could. I went to waste too. Well, I got on my foot. I didn't want to get surgery that in 2024. And that's as much as I know. It's just like, I just want to run.

• 2:14:49Speaker 02

  And again, a doctor recommended it to you.

• 2:14:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't the back alley like, hey,

• 2:14:54Speaker 02

  Hey, Frank.

• 2:14:55Cameron Hanes?

  I got your stuff, you know, so whatever. I mean, I mean, it feels to me in some ways, it feels better just to be honest instead. I never want to feel like I'm like hiding something. So that's why when he commented on my thing, I'm like, I don't care. I'm gonna say I got nothing to hide.

• 2:15:17Speaker 02

  Well, that should show that you're not trying to dope secretly like.

• 2:15:21Cameron Hanes?

  I got nothing to hide. Yeah, like I've said what I've the whole time, the this whole time I've been doing this for years and like, go to waste while get stem cell, do these different things, get IVs. I've always said what I got like 100%. I'm not trying to trick anybody. So I don't know, I feel better just being honest. And that's what I say. If you saw it wants to send a message and do something to me, fine, do it.

• 2:15:47Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's respectful.

• 2:15:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:49Speaker 02

  And that's why I wanted to say something.

• 2:15:50Cameron Hanes?

  Well, thank you.

• 2:15:51Speaker 02

  I was hoping the opportunity would come up to say something and I forgot about it. But then you said that and reminded me. But yeah, like, being honest, that's respectful.

• 2:16:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And I think that's how that's the best way through this. Otherwise, people just kind of they pretend like things are not let they pretend like reality isn't real. Like we're saying what reality is what we did and and why we did it. We didn't want surgery. But so many people would say, like you asked them, hey, have you ever taken anything not without even knowing what's on the banned list? They'd say, no.

• 2:16:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:16:23Cameron Hanes?

  No, I would never do that.

• 2:16:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. I found three things on that list that I was taking.

• 2:16:27Cameron Hanes?

  So are we worse than the people, like I said, like all that, all that I said was, why would anybody after this? Why would anybody tell the truth?

• 2:16:36Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 2:16:37Cameron Hanes?

  Cause I just get right through the cold.

• 2:16:38Speaker 02

  Exactly. But everybody has a point where they're gonna go to that.

• 2:16:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:42Speaker 02

  Everybody has a point. Like there's a guy I know.

• 2:16:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:45Speaker 02

  That lives by me. And when he found out I took that, like he said, this, he's like, oh, that's, you can't take that stuff. But he's had knee issues forever. He had like, it's his meniscus. And a few months after, like, he finally came to me, he's like, okay, how do I get a hold of this stuff? Like I'm getting desperate. Like I want my knee to get better.

• 2:17:04Cameron Hanes?

  Right. When you just wanna live.

• 2:17:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:06Cameron Hanes?

  That's what I'm saying. I just, I love running the trails.

• 2:17:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:10Cameron Hanes?

  I will do anything to protect that.

• 2:17:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:14Cameron Hanes?

  To, to allow me to do that till my dying day, I don't, I don't care what list it's on.

• 2:17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:21Cameron Hanes?

  This is my life.

• 2:17:23Speaker 02

  And I know you just said you're addicted to the start line.

• 2:17:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:26Speaker 02

  But I'm sure if you were given a one or the, like, I'm sure if it came down to it.

• 2:17:30Cameron Hanes?

  I would give up all the racing.

• 2:17:31Speaker 02

  Just so you can keep running.

• 2:17:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's what I say. It's like, even if you sought to ban me, I would, I'm gonna run every day. I don't even care. Yeah, I love racing, but I don't need racing like I need just to be active.

• 2:17:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:17:43Cameron Hanes?

  To be in the mountains and to, and to feel, you know, I feel the sun on my face, the rain on my shoulders, the wind, and just experience just what it means to be, you know, just a, a, a human alive in the mountains, pushing themselves. I would do anything to continue that. The racing, whatever, it's just kinda fun.

• 2:18:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:03Cameron Hanes?

  But I need to run.

• 2:18:05Speaker 02

  Same here.

• 2:18:05Cameron Hanes?

  I need to be out.

• 2:18:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:07Cameron Hanes?

  And so, yeah, we're, yeah, we're just gonna do whatever it takes to, to make sure we were able to do that. But yeah.

• 2:18:15Speaker 02

  I mean, most of my, like, my livelihood, like, relies on this. But I, I'm the same thing as you, man. Like, like, if I have to go back to a nine to five.

• 2:18:26Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:18:28Speaker 02

  Because saying what I just said means people don't want me to coach them anymore.

• 2:18:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:32Speaker 02

  Then I guess I'm going back to nine to five because I'd rather just be running every day too and staying healthy.

• 2:18:39Cameron Hanes?

  I would rather have a coach that's honest and not, you know, and just even because it's like, it's really easy to be honest when there's nothing at stake.

• 2:18:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:18:48Cameron Hanes?

  You know, but when people can turn it into whatever and you're still honest, I respect that. And I think most people do.

• 2:18:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:56Cameron Hanes?

  They're like, you know,

• 2:18:59Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, most people are pretty, pretty fair and objective and look at this the right way and be like, yep, that makes sense. I'm on board with that.

• 2:19:08Speaker 02

  I think most people I coach are like that. And I don't want to beat a dead horse, but one of the people that recommended BPC to me was somebody I coached.

• 2:19:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:16Speaker 02

  Um, he had a chronic Achilles issue for years and he started taking that and it went away.

• 2:19:22Cameron Hanes?

  Well,

• 2:19:24Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, and so we're, how are you going to say that he shouldn't do that?

• 2:19:28Speaker 02

  Right?

• 2:19:28Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, come on.

• 2:19:29Speaker 02

  Well, the time I didn't know it was on WADA's list, but even now, I'm not going to say that.

• 2:19:35Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 2:19:35Speaker 02

  Like, hey, like, I'll probably encourage it. Like,

• 2:19:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:38Speaker 02

  Hey, this other person I coached that fixed his Achilles issue, it might help you. Yeah, try it.

• 2:19:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I usually, I usually just say, all I ever say is I just get your blood panels done, talk to your doctor, see what they, you know, just go through a doc, go through somebody, you know, just, and, and if they recommend it, because who am, I'm just a guy, but I know what worked for me.

• 2:19:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:19:59Cameron Hanes?

  And I know that I didn't get surgery and I can say that, but I would still say, still talk to a provider.

• 2:20:04Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:20:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:06Speaker 02

  Cause you can get this stuff off a website for cheap.

• 2:20:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I know. You don't know how, what it is really.

• 2:20:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. I paid probably three or four times the amount just to get it through a company with a registered nurse, like,

• 2:20:17Cameron Hanes?

  Perfect.

• 2:20:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Well, it, it worked.

• 2:20:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:21Cameron Hanes?

  You're out running.

• 2:20:21Speaker 02

  No surgery.

• 2:20:22Cameron Hanes?

  Five minute miles.

• 2:20:24Speaker 02

  And I've even had doc, sorry, last thing I'll say.

• 2:20:27Speaker 02

  Like my doc, so I, I saw the, the P A of my surgeon a couple of weeks ago. Our kids play baseball together. And so he's following up with me, he's like, did you get the surgery? How are things? I'm like, no, I didn't get the surgery. Everything's fine. He's like, seriously? Like you're like, I had a 19 by 11 bulging disc or herniated disc, which is huge. He's like, the nerve, like he had nerve damage, like you did nothing. I was like, oh no, I took this stuff.

• 2:20:53Cameron Hanes?

  And yeah.

• 2:20:54Speaker 02

  He's like, oh, I've, I've heard great things about that stuff. Like that's, that's amazing with where you were at, that you didn't get surgery. And two months later ran 300 mile race, won it and like, you're fine.

• 2:21:06Cameron Hanes?

  That's, see to me, that should be celebrated. That should be like, hey, look at, look how effective this can be and look what can happen. And what I found out is like the, the regular like family practice doctors, they're pretty old school. They don't like, like even if I say stem cell, they'll be like, it doesn't do anything. And I'm like, what? Do you just want to write a prescription for something or schedule surgery? Whereas like the wellness clinics, like ways to well, or these other clinics, they're more about, we want to help you feel better. We're not trying to make money off of cutting you. We want, let's do your blood panels. Let's see how we can make you more healthy or you have an injury. Let's see if this peptide might help. So they're more like the cure.

• 2:21:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:21:48Cameron Hanes?

  Instead of the symptom, you know, that, that they just address the symptoms and they take these pills, do whatever, like the family practice doctor. So it's like, you can talk to your regular M D and not get, and maybe get that shot down. Talk.

• 2:22:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:22:03Cameron Hanes?

  Try and, try and non invasive measures for healing because they're just used to what they know.

• 2:22:09Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:22:09Cameron Hanes?

  So it's like, that's all I would say is like, I would talk to like your doctor, but then also talk to maybe like a wellness clinic. And just make sure you understand the full scope.

• 2:22:18Speaker 02

  Well, then like in my case, like I, I, I didn't cancel my surgery. Like I said it, I had it for like, it was two months out. Um, I'm grateful it was two months out and not like the next week.

• 2:22:28Cameron Hanes?

  Oh man.

• 2:22:29Speaker 02

  But like, I had it set, I had it scheduled. I was planning on it. I was like, in the meantime, I'm going to try this and then legit. Five days before the surgery, I called and canceled. So I had the plan.

• 2:22:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:41Speaker 02

  Like, I still was going that route.

• 2:22:43Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:22:43Speaker 02

  But, uh, yeah, I tried something else, too.

• 2:22:46Cameron Hanes?

  And like, so would people rather have you have surgery just so you would stick to the USADA, whatever? It's just like, and then, like, my brother's had multiple surgeries on his back. Still has to battle it all the time.

• 2:22:59Speaker 02

  Taylor.

• 2:22:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:00Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like, would you prefer that? Somebody just, or you're healthy now. I mean, come on, guys.

• 2:23:07Speaker 02

  Right now, I'm sure they'd prefer that.

• 2:23:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:09Speaker 02

  But I hope more conversations like this.

• 2:23:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:11Speaker 02

  Makes it so they at least consider.

• 2:23:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:15Speaker 02

  That there might be a gray area to this kind of stuff.

• 2:23:18Cameron Hanes?

  Wow. Now, some, some people probably will never get there.

• 2:23:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, I think most people, most reasonable people will understand that.

• 2:23:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:27Cameron Hanes?

  But, uh, well, dude, Mike, thank you so much.

• 2:23:31Speaker 02

  Thank you, Cam.

• 2:23:32Cameron Hanes?

  Huge honor having you here, sharing my life with you for the last few days. Thank you for, I tricked you into coming out here just so I could learn from you, and I appreciate you.

• 2:23:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thanks for having me out here. It was a blast.

• 2:23:43Cameron Hanes?

  All right. Keep hammering, guys.