‘Paradise’ Season 2 Finale With Mina Kimes. Plus, ‘Euphoria’ S3 Trailer, ‘Something Very Bad Is Going to Happen,' and 'Project Hail Mary'

Chris and Andy talk about the ‘Euphoria’ S3 trailer (1:07) and ‘The White Lotus’ S4 cast additions of Heather Graham and Rosie Perez (5:42). Next, they talk about the first episode of Netflix’s ‘Something Very Bad Is Going to Happen’ and why it is an excellent example of longform horror (10:14), before Andy shares his thoughts on ‘Project Hail Mary’ (27:40). Later, they are joined by Mina Kimes to unpack the ‘Paradise’ Season 2 finale, why she loves the show, what else she’s been watching recently, and her take on the Eagles heading into next season (42:00). Drivers wanted. Learn more at http://vw.com Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Mina Kimes Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Cheers to fall savings at Whole Foods Market, home of higher ingredient standards. This Halloween, share chocolates and candies, made without that spooky high fructose corn syrup. Throwing a party? Make it easy with a Berry Chantilly Cake. Ready to cook pizza? No antibiotics ever chicken wings. And sushi made fresh daily. Fall gatherings never tasted better. Save through November 3rd at Whole Foods Market.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  When everyone's finally together, what makes mornings even brighter? Keeping things deliciously simple. Whether you're pouring up a glass of morning refreshment or topping off festive drinks for a family brunch, Simply Orange brings that 100% fresh squeezed taste to every moment. Deliciously bright and delightfully easy, Simply Orange is made for all your seasonal gatherings. Simply Orange, say yes to simple.

• 1:03Andy Greenwald?

  I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 1:09Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com. And joining me in the studio, traveling through time with a nosebleed, it's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:22Andy Greenwald?

  You know what time it is?

• 1:23Chris Ryan?

  What time is it?

• 1:24Andy Greenwald?

  We just watched the Euphoria trailer.

• 1:26Chris Ryan?

  Sure, brother. We're going to talk about the Euphoria trailer. We're going to talk about something very bad is going to happen. We might get a couple of minutes of Andy at Project Hail Mary talk.

• 1:34Andy Greenwald?

  Mostly about the concessions.

• 1:35Chris Ryan?

  The big thing we got going on on the pod today is Mina Kimes came by to talk about the season finale of Paradise. So we had a very fun chat with her about that, as well as Sean Mannion's offensive philosophy and A.J. Brown's trade prospects.

• 1:48Andy Greenwald?

  That's at the end of the pod.

• 1:49Chris Ryan?

  That's for The Watch bird after dark kind of situation. TheWatch at Spotify.com for email, TheWatchPod underscore for Instagram. Watch us on Ringer-TV on YouTube or on Spotify, where you can also listen to us, or listen to us wherever you can get podcasts. Let's start with Euphoria.

• 2:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 2:07Chris Ryan?

  This is...

• 2:07Andy Greenwald?

  We just did it. This is live to tape.

• 2:10Chris Ryan?

  Just watched it and it's been very strange. I think partially because I don't really even know if the promo cycle for this show has even started in earnest. Like I have not seen a big piece about it. There hasn't been a huge Sam Levinson. I'm sure that stuff is un- it's coming soon. But like usually with a show of this stature, with this popularity and with its being the final season and several years since the last season, you'd expect like a much bigger drumbeat. This is the first significant amount. We had a teaser. Now we have like a three minute trailer that dropped today. I am a fan of this show. Uh, I loved parts of season two significant. I really, really liked it. But I, I feel like we've always been, we've always missed each other. I don't think we really talked about season one.

• 2:55Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 2:55Chris Ryan?

  I think I talked about two, maybe with somebody else, but not with you.

• 3:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 3:01Chris Ryan?

  Have you ever watched Euphoria?

• 3:02Andy Greenwald?

  Not a frame.

• 3:03Chris Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 3:04Andy Greenwald?

  And I'm here to tell you something.

• 3:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:06Andy Greenwald?

  As Kai is my witness.

• 3:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:07Andy Greenwald?

  I can't, I can't front. That looked good as hell.

• 3:11Andy Greenwald?

  That looked fucking sick.

• 3:12Chris Ryan?

  That's not indicative.

• 3:13Andy Greenwald?

  If that's the show.

• 3:14Chris Ryan?

  It's not.

• 3:15Andy Greenwald?

  Here's what I'm gonna do. Don't do this to me.

• 3:17Chris Ryan?

  I'm not doing anything to you. This is what the show has become.

• 3:20Andy Greenwald?

  Great. I wanna watch this show.

• 3:22Chris Ryan?

  Watching Rue the drug mule.

• 3:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 3:24Chris Ryan?

  And like her high school friends who have now all become waste cases.

• 3:29Andy Greenwald?

  Let's go.

• 3:30Chris Ryan?

  Trying to find redemption in this California nightmare that we live in.

• 3:33Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think you're seeing my face right now.

• 3:35Chris Ryan?

  Pumped dude.

• 3:37Andy Greenwald?

  I am here to tell you, we're doing it this way. There were no two seasons before this. I'm not even gonna engage.

• 3:44Chris Ryan?

  This is the new TV brother. This is right. There's not.

• 3:47Andy Greenwald?

  And what if this is good? That's all I care about.

• 3:49Chris Ryan?

  You know what? Who's gonna tell us no?

• 3:51Andy Greenwald?

  Well.

• 3:52Chris Ryan?

  I, I don't see the TV cops here, right? Who's gonna tell us?

• 3:55Andy Greenwald?

  I do hear some sirens. I do.

• 3:57Chris Ryan?

  No one's gonna tell you, you have to watch two seasons of Euphoria plus the Christmas specials?

• 4:02Andy Greenwald?

  Let's go back to a more pure state in which a teaser trailer teases my interest.

• 4:09Chris Ryan?

  You know what?

• 4:10Andy Greenwald?

  In which a trailer peaks it even further. And now I'm like, she's in Mexico?

• 4:17Andy Greenwald?

  Frankenstein looks upset. Coleman Domingo. Done.

• 4:22Chris Ryan?

  Who did Sydney Sweeney vote for?

• 4:24Andy Greenwald?

  Couldn't care less, but respect to her brother. Like, this looks awesome, and if this is the show, let's do it.

• 4:30Chris Ryan?

  Sharon Stone?

• 4:31Andy Greenwald?

  And Sharon Stone on the WB lot, no problem.

• 4:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:35Andy Greenwald?

  This is, like, not to be, not to be glib, like, we were, we were discussing, we were critiquing, we were enjoying, we were rolling with the ways that industry, DGAF, about what it is supposed to be doing in its third or into its fourth season.

• 4:53Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 4:53Andy Greenwald?

  And I am very much here for the opportunity to meet a hyped show that has also been a very troubled show in production.

• 5:03Chris Ryan?

  For sure.

• 5:03Andy Greenwald?

  And not even necessarily in terms of like tablet stuff.

• 5:06Chris Ryan?

  They were finding themselves in production, you know?

• 5:07Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that and they were-

• 5:09Chris Ryan?

  There was some issues.

• 5:10Andy Greenwald?

  And they were finding a schedule that worked for their suddenly globally famous cast and everything else. But if what they settled on was, fuck it, then I would like to see what that looks like.

• 5:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, if they're making Magnolia with guns, I'm pretty into it.

• 5:26Andy Greenwald?

  Always have been.

• 5:27Chris Ryan?

  And this, the Rue character, the Zendaya character has just been like a really cool evolution over the now third season.

• 5:38Andy Greenwald?

  She seems to be in a cool place.

• 5:39Chris Ryan?

  And she seems to be in a really fucked up place, but she's looking for a way out. She's looking for a happy ending for herself.

• 5:45Andy Greenwald?

  She's also one of our only real stars, I think, in the world, Zendaya.

• 5:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:51Andy Greenwald?

  I'm eager to engage with what I believe to be the first season of her HBO show.

• 5:57Chris Ryan?

  I'll be excited to see the text messages that I get when you're like, and I would know this guy in relationship to this person, how?

• 6:04Andy Greenwald?

  I am not gonna give you that. I, my new thing, starting, um, what time is it? I'm gonna-

• 6:10Chris Ryan?

  11:18 on Monday.

• 6:12Andy Greenwald?

  I say yes. This is a whole new pivot for me.

• 6:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:18Andy Greenwald?

  Previously, I said, "Hmm." Now I'm gonna say yes.

• 6:21Chris Ryan?

  CR Month changed you.

• 6:22Andy Greenwald?

  It really did. By the way, it's a long month. We're still going. This is, this is our last, our last podcast of CR Month.

• 6:29Chris Ryan?

  This is our last.

• 6:30Andy Greenwald?

  Do you have any more?

• 6:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, no. I am, by the time this, this feed sees me again, it will be post CR Month. So I'll be, uh,

• 6:37Andy Greenwald?

  A shell.

• 6:38Chris Ryan?

  A shell of myself. Yeah. There's some other news, I guess. I mean, there's more additions to the White Lotus cast.

• 6:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but you're not as interested in that.

• 6:45Chris Ryan?

  I'm interested.

• 6:46Andy Greenwald?

  You're in prove it mode with the White Lotus.

• 6:48Chris Ryan?

  I, look, he doesn't have to prove anything to me. Mike White, just recently on Survivor 50.

• 6:53Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:54Chris Ryan?

  The guy is ripped. Did you know that? Mike White, like, absolutely jacked?

• 6:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 6:58Chris Ryan?

  You did know that?

• 6:59Andy Greenwald?

  I, I did know that. I,

• 7:01Chris Ryan?

  Did you see it on Facebook?

• 7:02Andy Greenwald?

  No, I have a Google alert set to staying fit after 50.

• 7:06Chris Ryan?

  No, I thought you were just Mike White muscle tone.

• 7:09Andy Greenwald?

  Mike White muscle. And it's,

• 7:12Chris Ryan?

  I,

• 7:13Andy Greenwald?

  Just white muscles I search for.

• 7:14Chris Ryan?

  List off the cast that's in this, this season of White Lotus, season four, which is, I believe, set in France.

• 7:19Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, okay. This is the previously announced cast.

• 7:22Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 7:22Andy Greenwald?

  Do you want to react in any way as I say the names? Or do you want to save your applause to the end?

• 7:25Chris Ryan?

  Give me the full roster, the lineup.

• 7:26Andy Greenwald?

  Chloe Bennett, Sandra Bernhard, Helena Bonham Carter, Vincent Cassel, Steve Coogan, Caleb Jontay Edwards, Dylan Ennis, Quarantine Fila, we're in the area of the cast, which I don't know who these people are. But I, you know, respect. Ari Grayner, Max Greenfield, Charlie Hall, Marissa Long, Alexandra Ludwig, perhaps it's Ludwig, Chris Messina, A.J. Michalka, Kumail Nanjiani, Jared Paul, Nadia Tereshkivitch, I want to say, I didn't want to say. And then joining as of today, Heather Graham.

• 7:56Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:56Andy Greenwald?

  Recently at the, back in the cinemas as well, right?

• 7:58Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 7:58Andy Greenwald?

  For the horror movie. Rosie Perez, Ben Schnitzer, who I believe you and I know from The Madison.

• 8:04Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah, that guy.

• 8:05Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, Tobias Santelman.

• 8:06Chris Ryan?

  Is that guy's name Val on The Madison?

• 8:08Andy Greenwald?

  I don't listen to the names. I just groove to the archetypes.

• 8:12Chris Ryan?

  You just watch the faces. Yeah. Groove to the archetypes with Andy.

• 8:15Andy Greenwald?

  Saying yes. Frida Gustafson and Laura Smet.

• 8:19Chris Ryan?

  Can I ask you something?

• 8:21Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 8:22Chris Ryan?

  That's a lot of guests at the White Lotus.

• 8:23Andy Greenwald?

  It's a big hotel this year.

• 8:25Chris Ryan?

  I wonder, and, and if you had to guess,

• 8:27Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 8:28Chris Ryan?

  Who's working this, who's working behind the desk and who's a guest?

• 8:32Andy Greenwald?

  Everyone I said who's French.

• 8:33Chris Ryan?

  Is gonna be working behind the desk.

• 8:35Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm. Except Vincent Cassel.

• 8:38Chris Ryan?

  Maybe he's the hotel manager.

• 8:40Andy Greenwald?

  Possibly. He's, he's, I'm gonna, you know what? He's too handsome.

• 8:43Chris Ryan?

  I'm not in prove it mode. I thought there was a lot to love about season three. I didn't think it was the most successful of the three seasons for me personally. Like in terms of like the way it clicked together and what it was about. Yeah.

• 8:55Andy Greenwald?

  I think the only thing that you can determine from what we were just saying about the cast list is one of the critiques of season three was that it felt a little bit claustrophobic and small and the storylines were pretty much, you know, distinct siloed nodules early on.

• 9:09Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 9:10Andy Greenwald?

  This seems to be, I don't know if it's necessarily a response to that, but this is a much bigger and deeper bench of characters who could potentially be interacting in ways that we will be delighted by.

• 9:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:20Andy Greenwald?

  The only thing that I want to bring out by mentioning the cast is something that we have said before, which is they should take the first best casting Oscar that they gave to Vanessa Kukukundis and give it to Mike White.

• 9:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:32Andy Greenwald?

  Because it's not just that he's so good at casting and so interesting with the cast that he finds and is able to write for, write parts that suit actors who have been mis-served often in later parts of their careers.

• 9:47Chris Ryan?

  Or thought of only as one thing. Yeah.

• 9:49Andy Greenwald?

  It's that what he's doing now, like, do you remember when we did the like, the fan casting True Detective season two stuff? And everybody was having a lot of fun with that back when Twitter was fun and back when anyone had fun doing anything online? He is fan casting White Lotus better than fans could by casting people who feel like they always should have been in this. Heather Graham and Rosie Perez, like, okay, of course, of course, that makes sense.

• 10:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Messina hasn't, like, I mean, he's done a bunch of like, sort of more supporting roles in recent years, but has not been like front and center in a minute. Hopefully he'll.

• 10:23Andy Greenwald?

  Sandra Bernhard, Max Greenfield, and then I think that Steve Coogan and Helena Bonham Carter, just like.

• 10:29Chris Ryan?

  There'll probably be a couple in this, right?

• 10:30Andy Greenwald?

  Born to do this.

• 10:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:32Andy Greenwald?

  See, did I turn you around?

• 10:33Chris Ryan?

  This is 27, correct?

• 10:35Andy Greenwald?

  I would expect so.

• 10:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, because they probably haven't even started shooting yet.

• 10:39Andy Greenwald?

  I think they are just about to start shooting.

• 10:41Chris Ryan?

  This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else, but that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then, because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn more at VW.com. Let's talk a little bit about some, a new TV show and then a new-ish movie.

• 11:17Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 11:17Chris Ryan?

  Just because I wanted to get your Project Hail Mary thoughts after the fact and then we'll bring Mina on and we'll do Paradise. I asked you to check out Something Very Bad Is Going to Happen.

• 11:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 11:26Chris Ryan?

  Which is on Netflix. It's created by Haley Boston, who did a pretty cool movie a few years ago called Brand New Cherry Flavor. And it is, the first two episodes are-

• 11:33Andy Greenwald?

  Is that the TV show that was on Netflix? She was a writer on that?

• 11:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Uh, and then, um, it's directed, the first couple of episodes are directed by a filmmaker named Veronica Toffelska.

• 11:43Andy Greenwald?

  Veronica.

• 11:44Chris Ryan?

  Veronica Toffelska, who did, um-

• 11:46Andy Greenwald?

  Baby Reindeer.

• 11:47Chris Ryan?

  Did two episodes of Baby Reindeer, but, um, did Love Lies Bleeding, which is a movie with Kristen Stewart from a year or two ago that was very cool. Kind of had like a blood simple kind of vibe. And, um, this show stars Camilla Morone, uh, who people might remember from Daisy Jones and the Six, or from the most recent season of Night Manager, and Adam DiMarco, who people might remember from The White Lotus. And, uh, Jennifer Jason-Leigh and Ted Levine, and is essentially, so far, I've watched three episodes, a fucked up Rosemary's baby birth, like folk horror, like From Hell thriller,

• 12:27Chris Ryan?

  and really, like, really, really well-constructed example of how to do horror in long-form television, which I think is low-key one of the hardest things to do.

• 12:37Andy Greenwald?

  Who do you think is Mike Flanagan, sort of the leading-

• 12:40Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And here's the, this is the inversion of what Mike Flanagan does.

• 12:43Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 12:45Chris Ryan?

  Will make you wait for six and a half hours for the scare. And it will be dread, but it will really be this character studies of people who have all arrived at this place, one way or the other, and now are going through a transformational moment. And then sort of almost as a catalyst for the transformations that these people are going through, they'll have a vampire or a haunted house or something will bring this kind of new understanding and emotional healing about, sometimes not healing, sometimes death. This is a little bit of the inversion. So what the creators and the filmmakers in this show are trying to do is keep the tension more or less at like an 8.5 out of 10 for hours.

• 13:30Chris Ryan?

  And it is, you could say, your mileage may vary on horror for you. I'm curious to see how you felt about it. I think it's one of the best first episodes of a TV show I've seen in a long time. When you get past that first hour,

• 13:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 13:44Chris Ryan?

  You're like, holy shit, I like legit don't know if I can do this because it is so

• 13:49Andy Greenwald?

  I had that feeling.

• 13:50Chris Ryan?

  exhausting to be in the character Camilla Marone plays Rachel, who is a bride to be at her fiance's parents' palatial wooded estate. I can't remember.

• 14:05Andy Greenwald?

  It's Canada. They don't actually, if you see the wedding invitation, there's no further information.

• 14:10Chris Ryan?

  I wasn't sure if it was like Michigan, like.

• 14:12Andy Greenwald?

  I think it's, sure. The answer to all that is yes.

• 14:14Chris Ryan?

  In any case, they are, she's, she's meeting the family for the first time. This is her wedding weekend. She thinks it's going to be a small ceremony. It turns out it's going to be much larger. And almost as soon as the show starts, but especially when they get to this estate, just weird shit happens all the time. This is a Netflix show. So like, it's really hard to even read about because it'll just be like, let's talk about the ending. I don't.

• 14:36Andy Greenwald?

  And it's doing really well.

• 14:37Chris Ryan?

  And I don't want to spoil it for myself. And I think it's doing quite well. Yes. What did you think of the first episode which you watched?

• 14:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think, well, it's interesting to hear you talk about, and this might be a separate conversation about how the challenges of adapting horror to long form television. I would imagine it is similar to the challenges with rom coms in that these are both film, cinema languages that have a very specific rhythm and schedule almost to deliver what

• 15:02Andy Greenwald?

  For the deliverables and that's challenging to stretch out in a way that feels satisfying. I, to that point, one of the things that I really appreciated about this pilot is that it is incredibly efficient in communicating who these two people are, these engaged, this young engaged couple who are driving towards their wedding.

• 15:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Nikki and Rachel.

• 15:24Andy Greenwald?

  In the first 10, 15 minutes, which is ostensibly the normal time and maybe to your point, the last normal time of the show, they are both as performers and just how the show presents them incredibly charming and you're empathetic towards them and you kind of get the rhythms of them in a way that draws you in. Even those of us who are slightly immune to this type of storytelling. Before we get to how I felt at the end of the episode, I also want to say, and maybe this is just the new say yes me, or maybe just a little bit of a softening, I was mostly thrilled in those first 15, 20, even 30 minutes as it starts to turn because what I, I don't know anything about Haley Boston, who made the show. I don't know anything about the production of the show.

• 16:07Andy Greenwald?

  But I felt, it made me feel really happy that this young creator who clearly is passionate about this type of storytelling, possibly even this story, that she was able to articulate what she wanted to do so clearly and so passionately, and then that that pitch was heard clearly and passionately by, I guess, the Duffer Brothers who produced this.

• 16:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, who executive produced it.

• 16:30Andy Greenwald?

  That they brought on the right cast, they brought on the right director to execute it. Because I breathe, there's an LA Times profile of Haley and, you know, it talks about how this is her first time as a showrunner and all of that. It just seems like this is one of those opportunities that nobody fumbled the bag.

• 16:47Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 16:48Andy Greenwald?

  And they gave a first time creator, and by the way, this is, I'm not saying this, I'm not projecting anything, I had a chance to do everything I wanted to, good or bad, and I feel very fortunate for that. I love it when that happens.

• 16:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:58Andy Greenwald?

  Because whatever you may say about the show, and I will say good things and bad things, I really feel strongly that this, this creator's voice was heard and is coming through and that this wasn't noted or neutered in any way. And there's not a lot of that on TV. The development process, even at its best, chokes. A lot of chaos or passion out of projects.

• 17:21Chris Ryan?

  This has kind of been a running theme of like, a lot of the shows that we've talked about over the last six months is like, I think your sensitivity and your like, awareness of like, you can tell that this was like, un-

• 17:32Andy Greenwald?

  Un-fucked with.

• 17:33Chris Ryan?

  Unnoted, or not fucked with, or had like, a supportive hand in bringing it to the screen. So it's interesting to hear you say that about this.

• 17:39Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, we could get emails later being like, oh no, it was a nightmare. But I, I, I don't, the, all we're talking about now is just the result that's on screen and there's a confidence to this. And the shorthand, going back to that, the way the characters are introduced, you like them, you understand their vibe, you see how they relate to each other. Camilla Maroney, who I like a lot, generally, even within a few moments, this is probably the best I've ever seen her on screen because whether it's comfort with her co-star-

• 18:05Chris Ryan?

  I think she makes the show.

• 18:06Andy Greenwald?

  Or with the production.

• 18:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:07Andy Greenwald?

  I'm like, this is just, she, she understands this person that she's playing.

• 18:10Chris Ryan?

  She doesn't, um, I, you know, I, I know that Haley Boston's from Portland, the Rachel character is from Oregon, like, I, I think that she's-

• 18:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 18:22Chris Ryan?

  When, in pictures I've seen of Haley Boston, like, Camilla Marone is not dressed unlike her, kind of. And if you are gonna shoot a show, an eight-hour show, that's entirely from the POV, more or less, fro, of, of a character, if you're gonna be locked in with that actor, to that extent, she's got a great canvas. Because like, Camilla Marone is doing, like, awesome, awesome work, and is so vulnerable and scared, but also like, dealing with her own anxieties and panics, and maybe has secrets of her own, and things that she doesn't understand about herself. So it really, really, really, really

• 19:03Chris Ryan?

  worked for me. The thing I'm fascinated by, and I guess we can get into this first episode, is like, what you do differently when you're telling a horror story, for lack of a better term, over the course of eight hours, versus what you would do for ninety to two, ninety minutes to two hours. And like, the first fifteen minutes, which I think you were a fan of-

• 19:23Andy Greenwald?

  Very much so.

• 19:24Chris Ryan?

  Are a good example of- It's such a tone setter. The filmmaking is basically you're inside of this car with these people as they're on a road trip from the Midwest up to their wedding destination. And you stop at a diner and they like are trying to keep each other awake and chatting and listening to a podcast and listening to music and playing road games and stuff. But the camera is telling you, it's screaming to you, this isn't right. There's something fucked up. There's also this, if you pay attention to every single thing that's happening, almost all of it is paid off, even within the episode.

• 20:03Chris Ryan?

  So, for example, she's listening to a podcast about a woman who lived through a murder attempt. And one of the details that she remembers from this murder attempt is that there was a small like doll's shoe on the ground.

• 20:18Andy Greenwald?

  Like a Barbie shoe.

• 20:19Chris Ryan?

  And she was like, I remember that shoe and it prompted me to run away or whatever. And like two scenes later, the Rachel character finds the same kind of shoe on the floor of a public bathroom at a rest stop and during a very traumatizing moment. It's just like, you know, the truck that goes by them that seems creepy is also at a dive bar. Like you can play detective with this show. Then there's also just like a Lynchian kind of other dreamlike worldliness to it. But it is, it is, it'll fire on your nerves, man. Like I was watching it with my wife and we watched so much horror together. And even my wife was like, this is really tough to do this much and only be at the beginning of this.

• 21:04Andy Greenwald?

  Like when they arrive at the family home and Gus Burney, who's an actor that I think I like a lot, also I'm a fan. She's a, her dad is Reed Burney, who's a great New York stage and screen actor, which is not a reason to like or dislike her.

• 21:18Chris Ryan?

  Is she Portia?

• 21:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, she plays Portia. And so she was on Black Rabbit recently.

• 21:22Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:22Andy Greenwald?

  When we meet her, and this is like the 30 minute halfway mark basically of the pilot, she's turned.

• 21:29Andy Greenwald?

  Like she is at an 11 on the spinal tap scale of what this character is doing. And to your point, like, that's an interesting ingredient to throw into the pot early in the cooking process.

• 21:40Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 21:41Andy Greenwald?

  How do you build on that? Where is there to go? And it's, but it's kind of a provocation in a way that clearly is working in terms of its viewership and its success in terms of getting people to keep going to see where it goes. I had a hard time with it. I liked that scene in a vacuum, but-

• 21:59Chris Ryan?

  The tonal shift of it from what we had seen up until-

• 22:01Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't, like, my, my thing, this, I, I think what's gonna be interesting in talking about the show, which I don't know if I can stick with.

• 22:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I understand.

• 22:08Andy Greenwald?

  But, because I just don't enjoy this, this is just not my genre. But what I thought was interesting, and I think what I'm about to criticize might be a sign of success in your metric, is that any scene in the pilot, whether it's them driving, just the two of them, early, whether it's the very disturbing, like, baby in the car sequence that leads to a dive bar, whether it's this meeting the family, or whether it's where it ends with Jennifer Jason-Leigh, seal off any of these scenes in parentheses, take them out and watch them. I'm like, this is really cool. There's a lot of ideas here, there's a lot of emotion, there's a lot of tension, the filmmaking is good. When they are stacked on top of each other, I have to tap out. Maybe that escalation is a good thing.

• 22:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:50Andy Greenwald?

  But for me, it isn't, because the, the thing that I struggle with, with the genre is the inevitable, and look, this is a whole other conversation, like, horror really works, especially for young filmmakers, because it is a tried and true recipe that you can throw different things in, but-

• 23:05Chris Ryan?

  Also, in the case of this show, it's an example of post-COVID production tricks of like, let's just get five people and have them in one set, basically.

• 23:15Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 23:16Chris Ryan?

  And, like, horror excels at isolation, at, like, you know, a limited, sort of, like-

• 23:23Chris Ryan?

  Like a limited canvas of like characters to play with and making them have be in opposition to each other because you they are stuck in a place together.

• 23:30Andy Greenwald?

  What I struggle with, separate and apart from my nervous disposition, is that once you get on to the prescribed horror track, where these things go is inevitably a place of extremity and horror and violence or death or jump scares. When I'm more interested in a more quotidian friction, let's say, in terms of like the things that are inspiring Haley Boston and her collaborators on the show to make this series, which I think comes from, you know, places of like anxiety and mistrust and uncertainty about traditional marriage tracks or meeting your partner's family and all of that. Generally, I just I'd rather the show that stays there, not that takes it to this extreme.

• 24:14Andy Greenwald?

  But as people listening to our show will understand, that if she if Rachel goes to visit Nikki's family and Nikki's families happen to be all Cold War era spies, I'd be like, this is the fucking shit.

• 24:25Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 24:26Andy Greenwald?

  This is awesome.

• 24:27Chris Ryan?

  Sometimes.

• 24:27Andy Greenwald?

  Because that's my happy place genre.

• 24:29Chris Ryan?

  There's Honey Night Cheerios and yeah, I get you.

• 24:32Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I'm trying to express. Like, I really enjoyed the exercise of watching the show and it gave me a lot of good feelings, especially because you told me not to watch it last night, so I started my day with it instead of ending my day with it.

• 24:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I don't know if it's a nighttime show for you. The mechanics of it are really interesting because it's also borrowing from that pronounced must watch next episode, you know, prescription. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that that's built into, hey, when you're writing these scripts, make sure there's something that happens in the last two minutes that people cannot stop from clicking next episode. And everything from The Pit to whatever else does that, now Paradise. There's something specific in, I think, a lot of Netflix shows, and I've noticed, like, you know, with the prestige crime Apple shows where you get to the end of an episode and you're like, oh, my God, the daughter did it. And then the next five minutes, and it's like, oh my God, the new nurse is in a headlock.

• 25:26Chris Ryan?

  And then the next five minutes of the next episode is like, it's okay.

• 25:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 25:29Chris Ryan?

  We're fine. Um, or it's not that, it's something else. To do that with horror is hard because the thing that I was hearing the most from my wife, and I honestly echo her, is like, she's gotta get the fuck out of there.

• 25:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, why doesn't she just go?

• 25:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And now, what I imagine is going to happen, just based on Rachel's weird tattoos, her interesting backstory of like, never knowing her mother, and she has no grandfather father, and like, what has led her to this place, and et cetera. And she has like, obviously, some panic issues. What I think is going to probably be the case is that there is a reason why she is there, uh, both on her side, not just the family's side, and that there is a reason why she can't leave, or she has not chosen to leave. But yeah, it's hard to have it be like, oh yeah, I know this is like, the scariest thing you've ever seen in your life, but there's an easy explanation for it, and you should just stick through this wedding that obviously is doomed.

• 26:28Andy Greenwald?

  But do you know what's kind of interesting thing to think about is, um, the A24 model these last few years, which has shifted a lot, especially now that they're kind of in their blockbuster era.

• 26:38Chris Ryan?

  They're Elden Ring era, yeah.

• 26:39Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, exactly that. But they were succeeding by identifying people with very passionate visions for something, generally in more modest framing, whether it's a horror story or whatever, and saying, okay, go make your movie, and we'll take a bunch of lottery tickets with these, and if one of them hits, it pays for all of them. And Netflix has the, the engine to do that, you know? And you could say that it's similar, so the success of giving Haley Boston the right setup to make this show, isn't that dissimilar in some ways from giving Joe Barton the setup to make Black Doves?

• 27:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:17Andy Greenwald?

  Which is, by no one's metric, a traditional spy show, but works because of the, the combination of the right creator and the right vehicle for that creation. Like Black Doves, which we'll talk about when it comes back in season two, one of the reasons I loved it is I was like, this is a Netflix show. And I say that with an exclamation point, not a question mark. Like this works for this medium where we're expecting a certain type of return on our time investment of like a yes and attitude towards excess and energy and action and everything's bigger.

• 27:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Andy Greenwald?

  And it works and you know, a show, a show like this wouldn't hit, I think, and feel as exciting for the people who are watching it if it was on, I don't want to say a lesser streamer in terms of quality, but a lesser streamer in terms of market penetration.

• 28:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 28:05Andy Greenwald?

  Let's say a streamer that doesn't feel confident charging $20 a month for its service, which honestly.

• 28:10Chris Ryan?

  I saw that.

• 28:11Andy Greenwald?

  We're at war. What the fuck?

• 28:13Chris Ryan?

  Um, okay, so I, I highly recommend this, Andy. I, I would say honestly, a recommendation in and of itself is the fact that you went and finished this episode.

• 28:23Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 28:24Chris Ryan?

  Uh, and like that you were like intrigued enough with a bunch of the stuff that was going on, like really good performances, really interesting filmmaking for a TV show and good writing and it's like, I, I thought, I, I hope I get to talk to Hilly Boston because I really, I'm really excited to go deeper into this.

• 28:39Andy Greenwald?

  This is the greatest example of a, it's not, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's not you, it's me.

• 28:43Chris Ryan?

  Before we get to Mina. You did see Project Hail Mary this weekend.

• 28:46Andy Greenwald?

  I did.

• 28:47Chris Ryan?

  It's basically the only movie out, like it's just sucking up the entire box office right now.

• 28:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 28:52Chris Ryan?

  What'd you think?

• 28:53Andy Greenwald?

  Can I just say like, big picture? Not, oh, actually, maybe actually hashtag the big picture. I, I have a lot of criticisms and I have a lot of like compliments for this film, but my main thing was, I wish there were 10 of these, these movies, movies like this a year instead of like maybe three every five years.

• 29:11Chris Ryan?

  Right. Now, when you say that, do you mean Andy Weir movies or are you just?

• 29:15Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 29:15Chris Ryan?

  Big, original, funny?

• 29:17Andy Greenwald?

  Crowd pleasing. We are all in this to entertain people around the world, maybe even to other worlds and we are going to put our best and the brightest onto this particular project to execute that.

• 29:29Chris Ryan?

  But do you, yeah. But what's the distinction you would make between this and like Super Mario Galaxy does that, right?

• 29:35Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think it's what you said at the beginning, like that there, this is a original IP, this is based on a, any book. It is.

• 29:46Andy Greenwald?

  It's interesting. It's conventional in a lot of ways, but it would be a tough. The tone that it tries to, the needle that it tries to thread, and I think that it mostly succeeds in threading, which is like, this is at once a quite sober look at scientific process and cooperation, and also a utterly glib buddy comedy between Ryan Gosling and a small rock. Like, that's hard to pitch that.

• 30:14Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 30:15Andy Greenwald?

  And I, and I think that it was committed to its own goal of entertaining. And in a way that like, and listen, I'm going to have to, you're talking to someone who's going to have to see Super Mario Galaxy. Mostly because I'm a Nintendo completist. I won't bring my children. That, that like, but cynically.

• 30:34Chris Ryan?

  We come here, heartbreak feels good in a place like this. Just Andy watching.

• 30:39Andy Greenwald?

  Just surrounded by toads.

• 30:41Chris Ryan?

  Nicole Kidman, yeah.

• 30:42Andy Greenwald?

  Not to be the old podcaster that I am or that we are, but it's like, the, there used to be a lot of movies that tried to entertain adults and kids. That, that was a wide net that people tried to do. That they didn't feel like, you know, the, the, the risk associated with that, just. It's a, it's a, Super Mario Galaxy is a safer return on investment than Project Hail Mary, even with Ryan Gosling, even with Lord and Miller in a bestselling book. I think the problem is, and we find this also with like Oscar season movies, I think, is that when there's only one of them, it's going to get a lot of slings and arrows also because this has to be the movie for everybody. And then when one thing is the only example of that movie during a year,

• 31:26Andy Greenwald?

  you spend more time pointing out problems with it. And like.

• 31:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 31:31Andy Greenwald?

  I, I had a great time, which maybe that's all that matters. I feel like Lord and Miller are.

• 31:39Andy Greenwald?

  Remember that, like, when there was the post J.J. Abrams, like, let's give Colin Trevorrow a movie and all we're trying to do is find our next generation Spielberg and storytellers who like-

• 31:48Chris Ryan?

  Well, it was like, let's draft people out of indies to make big budget genre and usually superhero movies.

• 31:54Andy Greenwald?

  These guys are the ones who can do that. And I know that this is probably their first live-action opportunity to prove that, but as someone who has been in the sick-day trenches watching Lego Movie and Mitchell's vs. the Machines and all the Spider-Verse movies multiple times, these guys are pretty naturally skilled at making you laugh and have a little bit of heart to them and having enough twists on the classic story, like Hero's Journey, that it works. Like, the things that I was reading about that were additions to the movie, like the Don't Go Crazy Room, or the Carl character. And I know Drew Goddard wrote the script and he's very, very good at doing this thing. I'm sure many of the good ideas were also his. I don't want, I'm not in the business of Drew Goddard erasure, but there is a Lord and Miller jokeyness, jokeyness, no, we're

• 32:39Andy Greenwald?

  really gonna do the joke here, we're not gonna apologize for it, that was welcome.

• 32:44Chris Ryan?

  I was trying to articulate this thing that I felt when, and this is spoilers for Project Hail Mary, but I think that's okay, because that movie's made like $300 million in two weeks.

• 32:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 32:55Chris Ryan?

  Uh, is, the difference between how I felt watching the Gosling character do a spacewalk and seeing the purple and, like, the light changing in the sky as he's trying to, like, capture the astrophase thing and, you know, it's, it is a visual moment that I will remember so much better than anything that happens, let's say, in, like, The Fall Guy, which is another movie that I liked, which is another movie that stars Ryan Gosling and probably uses more or less, like, the same amount of effects, that that, that those two things are basically the same amount of aided by digital effects. And it, it really

• 33:37Chris Ryan?

  is, like, putting characters in situations where the characters are actually also amazed at what they are seeing.

• 33:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 33:46Chris Ryan?

  And this is the thing that Spielberg does-

• 33:48Andy Greenwald?

  It's a great point.

• 33:48Chris Ryan?

  Is, when you watch Jurassic Park Rebirth-

• 33:53Chris Ryan?

  Jurassic World rebirth, or whatever it was with the Scarlett Johansson, Mahershala Ali movie. None of the people in that movie are that impressed by seeing dinosaurs. And the actors don't seem to really like think it's that big of a deal. And all the stunts are like, I jumped off a cliff, did thirty-five,

• 34:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:08Chris Ryan?

  you know, somersaults and grabbed a wire over a canyon. And it's all just kind of like divorced from physics, but also bravery and fear and all these like human emotions. And the thing that Lord and Miller got, that I think is the thing that Spielberg understood, is that the people in the movie need to reflect the feelings of the people watching the movie about how amazing this is. And we have gotten so far away from that because what we've been watching are a bunch of glib superheroes be like, I'll flip this fucking car with my finger because I'm a superhero.

• 34:40Andy Greenwald?

  I'm not surprised that you're blue because we all speak English.

• 34:42Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 34:43Andy Greenwald?

  And the movie, and I think this, I know this comes from the book, the amnesia part is very effective for that reason. Because literally every man, I mean, I wish every man was Ryan Gosling. I wish we were two Ryan Goslings talking to each other right now.

• 34:56Chris Ryan?

  We could do some interesting stuff in video now.

• 34:58Andy Greenwald?

  Higher on it. Um, but he wakes up and he's like, no, wrong star, turn around.

• 35:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:04Andy Greenwald?

  Now we understand a little bit more about this and we feel alone. We feel scared as opposed to we're being played, you know, we're used to a character waking up in space and being like, oh, cool. That's Thanos's homeworld. No problem.

• 35:16Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 35:16Andy Greenwald?

  Be back before dinner.

• 35:17Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 35:18Andy Greenwald?

  Um, I completely agree with you about that. Um, and I also think that there's a human touch when you have filmmakers who are in control of the process or empowered to be in control of the process. And the human touch is what casts Lionel Boyce. It's what cast Sandra Huler, who is amazing in this movie. Like truly, and, and grounds sequences that.

• 35:38Chris Ryan?

  Did you ever see Anatomy of a Fall?

• 35:40Andy Greenwald?

  Um, no, I never did.

• 35:41Chris Ryan?

  I was gonna do a funny joke about it, but.

• 35:44Andy Greenwald?

  You wanna talk about it?

• 35:45Chris Ryan?

  I, I, I would love for you to watch it.

• 35:47Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe that'll be this. I mean, I just watched Enora, so I'm just really catching up. You want, you guys ready for my takes about that? Actually, I don't think you are.

• 35:55Chris Ryan?

  In the spirit of you.

• 35:56Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 35:57Chris Ryan?

  Being like, I, it's, it's Andy Day Zero.

• 36:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 36:00Chris Ryan?

  I'm ready to watch Euphoria.

• 36:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 36:02Chris Ryan?

  I'm done trying to tame you.

• 36:04Andy Greenwald?

  Just let me, let me go wild.

• 36:06Chris Ryan?

  You're like, uh, I'm Michelle Pfeiffer and these lands are wild. And I just have to, I have to meet you where you are, you know?

• 36:14Andy Greenwald?

  It was.

• 36:15Chris Ryan?

  Me being like, you gotta watch this. We've got to do that.

• 36:18Andy Greenwald?

  Can't tame me.

• 36:18Chris Ryan?

  Run free.

• 36:19Andy Greenwald?

  The truth is.

• 36:20Chris Ryan?

  Tell me, tell me, is it, is it a Nora week on this pod?

• 36:23Andy Greenwald?

  Our, our iMessage is like astrophage in that it's just like, it's, it's just, it's, it's like fissile material. And it's just appearing all the time. I, I'll say, and I'm curious where you feel about this. I mean, look, everything I've come to understand about the book is that it is also a little bit lumpy, a little bit hokey at times. And it's also like 500 pages. So their attempts to wrestle it down into this movie.

• 36:49Chris Ryan?

  Strangely, a book that everybody seems to be like, you gotta listen to the audiobook version.

• 36:53Andy Greenwald?

  Who does it?

• 36:54Chris Ryan?

  Uh, that's a great question. I don't know.

• 36:56Andy Greenwald?

  Should be more prepared. Just saying.

• 36:59Chris Ryan?

  I don't do audiobooks generally. I can't retain information.

• 37:01Andy Greenwald?

  But if you said like Tilda Swinton, I'd be like, I'll fire that up.

• 37:05Chris Ryan?

  It's Mikey Madison.

• 37:06Andy Greenwald?

  At what volume?

• 37:10Andy Greenwald?

  So all that, I think it's an impressive act of, of adaptation, truly. But like, people's mileage may vary. I actually wanted a little bit more of the Martian, like scientist trying to save everything. And a little bit less alien buddy comedy. Like I, I knew, having been spoiled, and I understand why it was in the trailer, that that was where we were headed to a degree. I did not know that that's what the movie was basically going to be. And it was.

• 37:38Chris Ryan?

  I wonder if Ken Long knew that movie. Was that was what the movie was going to be?

• 37:41Andy Greenwald?

  I also wonder that we love and in this house, we love and respect Ken and he's a phenomenal actor. And it's awesome to be in the biggest movie in the world, but I would say that he is underrepresented in this film.

• 37:53Chris Ryan?

  I just, I do wonder if there was some extra footage of his character that maybe didn't make it to the final cut.

• 37:59Andy Greenwald?

  It's just like, we talked about this over, over text, but like, ultimately, like all respect to the Eridians, I believe. And their intricate, um, uh, xenon, xenon weaving strategies. But like, I'd go home. I go home. Now, I know they've created a character who uniquely looks like Ryan Gosling and has no friends or loved ones. So it's NBD to just detour. And by the way, I imagine somehow making plans in space is easier than making plans in Los Angeles.

• 38:27Chris Ryan?

  If you went home, would you tell everyone the truth about what decision you had made? Or you'd be, would you just be like, I fixed it and then he went home too and it was all good?

• 38:35Andy Greenwald?

  A hundred percent.

• 38:36Chris Ryan?

  Okay, that would be a lie you lived with.

• 38:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 38:39Chris Ryan?

  You wouldn't be like, I just made the decision that I wanted to see if me and Sandra Haller could make something work together.

• 38:45Andy Greenwald?

  First of all, you're, what are you returning to? It's cold. You know what I mean? Like, everyone's old now. You didn't know anyone to begin with. You're a hero. Um, I don't really-

• 38:53Chris Ryan?

  Hockey is a national sport.

• 38:55Andy Greenwald?

  He did rivalry. He's ready for a comeback. It's been rebooted multiple times. You can't quibble with this movie because you have to accept it. And I'm a big believer in that. I did think his generative AI language software really stepped up quickly.

• 39:07Chris Ryan?

  It was quick. It was quick to learn. I, I think that if I had the opportunity to befriend a very cute species of rock aliens and I didn't have like, oh God, who's going to feed my cat kind of situation back home?

• 39:22Andy Greenwald?

  That's my problem. Yeah.

• 39:23Chris Ryan?

  Like, I would just be like, yeah, let's, let's rock out here. Also, I'm super into time moves different on like these, this planet or out in space.

• 39:32Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 39:32Chris Ryan?

  So you can like wait out, like all your homies can die and then you can come back and just have crazy knowledge.

• 39:38Andy Greenwald?

  And you can also be like, you also are really trusting that this dude who can weave anything will build you a biodome of the Pacific Northwest that you could just chill in.

• 39:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 39:49Andy Greenwald?

  For as long as you want without any problems. But there's also the secondary level of thinking, which is just like, okay, they build this biodome for me and I live with my robot friends on a beach and he comes visits me and that's fine. But what if you're a little congested and you're like, could I get some Afrin? And they're like, we don't have noses.

• 40:05Chris Ryan?

  But I think they can build Afrin though. The guy can build-

• 40:07Andy Greenwald?

  Out of metal. Yeah. I don't know. Like, what if you-

• 40:09Chris Ryan?

  Well, how did he build the ocean? You don't think he can come up with some antihistamine?

• 40:14Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know what they can and can't do, and I need a little more knowledge. You know what I mean? Like, what if, what if they're like, we'll make you all of this, you know, couldn't be me, but like, what if you, let's say hypothetically, were a little lactose intolerant? Or like, you don't like onions that much?

• 40:26Chris Ryan?

  I don't, not raw, yeah.

• 40:27Andy Greenwald?

  They're like, "We grew verdant crops of Vidalia onions for you, human."

• 40:32Chris Ryan?

  I feel like-

• 40:32Andy Greenwald?

  Would you be like, "Not, no?"

• 40:33Chris Ryan?

  They're trying to create a good dining experience for you. They're like, "Hey, yesterday the water was too hot, today it's too cold, like, let's find something in the middle." Like, I think that they work, work around what you need.

• 40:42Andy Greenwald?

  They did, he did find and befriend a very, very friendly species.

• 40:47Chris Ryan?

  Oh, do you think, yeah, there's probably a little bit more of a hostile version of that guy out there.

• 40:51Andy Greenwald?

  There are a couple movies that I remember about an extraterrestrial coming to our planet, for example, with nothing but love in his heart and a little light in his finger. And we did not build him a terrarium so he could just chill out and teach us.

• 41:04Chris Ryan?

  No, you hooked him up with Reese's Pieces, though.

• 41:06Andy Greenwald?

  One of us did, the Ryland Grace of his era did, but the representatives of the government-

• 41:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Peter Coyote did not.

• 41:13Andy Greenwald?

  They did not.

• 41:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:15Andy Greenwald?

  So, it is asking a lot of our friends and neighbors in the galaxy.

• 41:18Chris Ryan?

  I always love hearing you talk about space and what you do up there and how quick you'd quit on humanity.

• 41:23Andy Greenwald?

  That's the best thing about the movies, if we're spoiling it, is the, the reveal of how he ends up on the spaceship.

• 41:29Chris Ryan?

  Yes, that he was essentially-

• 41:29Andy Greenwald?

  Great twist.

• 41:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:30Andy Greenwald?

  Because that's the only way you're getting me up there, too. That is the only way. And there's gonna be a sequel, I guess, pretty clearly.

• 41:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Uh, and this is a huge hit.

• 41:38Andy Greenwald?

  Did you like the movie? You're ducking it.

• 41:40Chris Ryan?

  I really liked the present tense experience of watching it. I would say that it probably, um, operated at like such a kind of like winky, kind of fun-loving tone for most of it, that emotionally it wasn't like as overwhelming for me. But like, honestly, like, it's so much better than 80 to 90% of the shit I watch.

• 41:59Andy Greenwald?

  This is my point.

• 41:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:00Andy Greenwald?

  It is exceptionally well executed by people doing a great job.

• 42:03Chris Ryan?

  Is it 20 minutes too long? Sure, you know, like-

• 42:05Andy Greenwald?

  And a fun exercise that we don't need to do on this podcast is like, who other than Gosling could have pulled this off? Because it is a lot on him.

• 42:12Chris Ryan?

  I mean, I think it's like a list of- It may be a list of one.

• 42:15Andy Greenwald?

  I think it may be a list of one, particularly because Lord and Miller tend towards comedy so strongly. And he is-

• 42:22Chris Ryan?

  The list of one is Bernthal and-

• 42:23Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, he's the other one. I thought you meant Gosling was the one.

• 42:26Chris Ryan?

  It's actually, it was Bernthal's part. Let me tell you something, big dog.

• 42:30Andy Greenwald?

  Do it.

• 42:30Chris Ryan?

  You gotta make me some Afrin. Mad stuffy. Go to our interview with-

• 42:34Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't know I was dealing with Super Rock over here.

• 42:36Chris Ryan?

  It's a chat. It's a conversation among friends with Mina Kimes. We're gonna talk about Paradise Season 2. Full spoilers, so watch that finale if you, uh, if you haven't already and then get in. We also talked about Top Chef and the Philadelphia Eagles.

• 42:49Andy Greenwald?

  It was really good.

• 42:50Chris Ryan?

  Those are your three main topics.

• 42:51Andy Greenwald?

  I was about to say, those two things are my paradise, so.

• 42:56Chris Ryan?

  See you guys on Thursday.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  Cheers to fall savings at Whole Foods Market, home of higher ingredient standards. This Halloween, share chocolates and candies made without that spooky high fructose corn syrup. Throwing a party? Make it easy with a Berry Chantilly Cake. Ready to cook pizza? No antibiotics ever chicken wings. And sushi made fresh daily. Fall gatherings never tasted better. Save through November 3rd at Whole Foods Market.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  When everyone's finally together, what makes mornings even brighter? Keeping things deliciously simple. Whether you're pouring up a glass of morning refreshment or topping off festive drinks for a family brunch, Simply Orange brings that 100% fresh squeezed taste to every moment. Deliciously bright and delightfully easy, Simply Orange is made for all your seasonal gatherings. Simply Orange. Say yes to simple.

• 43:55Speaker 04

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 44:26Chris Ryan?

  All right, we're joined by Mina Kimes, who is nice enough to come down and talk about Paradise with us.

• 44:31Andy Greenwald?

  I thought we were talking about the Rick Woolen signing.

• 44:34Chris Ryan?

  See, that's the thing.

• 44:35Speaker 05

  Love it.

• 44:35Chris Ryan?

  Mina just started talking about Paradise. It's more animated than I've seen her in years of talking about Rick Woolens.

• 44:43Speaker 05

  Do you wish you could ask Alex to go back and not sign Adoree Jackson?

• 44:49Chris Ryan?

  Last year?

• 44:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:50Chris Ryan?

  He didn't hurt us. No.

• 44:52Speaker 05

  We're gonna get into how that happened.

• 44:53Andy Greenwald?

  I have other issues about last year, but we'll get to that.

• 44:55Chris Ryan?

  Well, it's also what we learned from Paradise is the villain might be the hero. You know, so it could be that Sidney Brown was sent from the future.

• 45:02Andy Greenwald?

  To do nothing.

• 45:03Chris Ryan?

  To fix our cap space. We're not talking about the Eagles cap situation yet.

• 45:06Andy Greenwald?

  I'm sorry, I derailed it in six seconds.

• 45:07Chris Ryan?

  We are talking about Paradise, which ended its second season last night and has become, I don't know, it's like somewhere for me between a Sheridan show and a real, and like, not a real show, but like a show that I take deathly seriously.

• 45:19Andy Greenwald?

  Big boy show.

• 45:20Chris Ryan?

  So let me say this, like, this was a great example of, I thought Paradise at its best, and also 25 minutes where I was just like, I can't remember who this person is or why they're in the prison downstairs. What's your relationship to the show and how did you feel about the finale?

• 45:35Speaker 05

  Uh, I love the show. I think to your point, though, it does occupy a weird space between, it's like caught, much like Link, perhaps, travels between timelines, caught between timelines. It's like, there's like a dose of prestige and a dose of hammy-ness that we don't really see mixed together a lot in television right now. I, right now, I'm watching Paradise in the Pit, like a lot of people, and it's such a throwback combination.

• 46:01Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 46:02Speaker 05

  Like, two shows that feel like they're from another time.

• 46:05Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 46:06Speaker 05

  But I really enjoy it. I also am extremely here for time travel shenanigans in all of my content, so when it started making that clear pivot this season, I was seated, I was ready to go on Reddit, I was ready to... Revisit a lot of my thoughts.

• 46:21Andy Greenwald?

  All the old muscles woke up.

• 46:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I'm really enjoying it. I thought the finale was great. We knew it was kind of headed towards bringing everybody back together and I wasn't sure how many of the questions about Alex would answer, and I think it answered just enough.

• 46:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 46:33Speaker 05

  To satisfy us while keep us wanting more.

• 46:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, well, we found out that Alex is not in fact like a little guy hanging out in like a room somewhere controlling the universe. It is in fact a supercomputer that is essentially was built by Dylan slash Link, you know, what, 10 years ago, I imagine, although he doesn't know how old he is.

• 46:51Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 46:51Chris Ryan?

  And where he's in, it seems unclear about his own past, other than the fact that he doesn't know his parents. Andy?

• 46:58Andy Greenwald?

  I want to add before, I have a take.

• 47:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, let's hear it.

• 47:01Andy Greenwald?

  I'm gonna unload it, but I did want to ask, we want to, I want to do a test of like your engagement with the show. Because I learned that Alex was the wife of.

• 47:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:14Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:14Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, in the previously on Paradise last night. That was when I learned that. That's my level of attention.

• 47:20Chris Ryan?

  So you've been around being like, Alex is an interesting name, not like, wow, Alex is the same name as Henry's late wife who was afflicted with Huntington's. Okay.

• 47:30Andy Greenwald?

  I'm not here to lie to anybody anymore. Okay, just mask off.

• 47:35Speaker 05

  All right, so you are not locked in. You're not like one of those people on Reddit who's like, if you combine the letters in Alex, they spell out the different names of the different characters from two seasons.

• 47:42Andy Greenwald?

  Did you know that X is a nickname for Xavier? I learned that last night, too. My take is, after watching this finale, that Paradise is lost on 2.5 speed. It is paradise for the podcast generation. Because the fact, you could look at this, you can engage with the show two ways. You could be like, I cannot believe that there was a scene on television in 2026 when a undergraduate interrupts his class to say, I invented the most powerful computer of all time and I'm carrying it with me in a briefcase, you boring old fuck. And that was just that one scene. The guy's like, cancel all my meetings. You must build this computer. Lost, that would have been a season.

• 48:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:22Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 48:22Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know if that's better. I feel like maybe this is what.

• 48:25Speaker 05

  Too much is happening?

• 48:26Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I don't know if like drawing everything out the way we did 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, or even five years ago, was better. I would just say that this is a very aggressive choice to tell the story they want to tell in a very limited amount of time.

• 48:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, there's like something about it that maybe lacks a little bit of mystery or mysticism. Not that there isn't anything confusing about Paradise or that there isn't like, I suppose, any like literary backbone to what it's doing, but like, Lost, you'd be watching it and there would be these biblical allusions and there would be, there is almost like a kind of unknowability to Lost until the very end, which is what people I think reacted so negatively to in some ways. I thought it was fine.

• 49:05Andy Greenwald?

  Bold.

• 49:05Chris Ryan?

  I think I'm on record being like, I don't, I was definitely not a pitchfork situation for me where I was like, this is awful. It negates the show.

• 49:13Andy Greenwald?

  That's because you weren't a talking head then.

• 49:15Chris Ryan?

  That's true.

• 49:15Andy Greenwald?

  You couldn't go on First Take.

• 49:16Chris Ryan?

  I was just a guy.

• 49:17Andy Greenwald?

  Mina, tell them. You can't go on television and be like, it's fine.

• 49:19Speaker 05

  We got into this when we podcasted about the Leftovers finale and you brought up all the, your feelings about it.

• 49:24Andy Greenwald?

  About Lost.

• 49:25Speaker 05

  I don't. No, I was not a Lost person, actually, despite loving everything else that David Milaf's ever made, passionately, maybe more so than anything else in television. I mentioned Pluribus. It was interesting watching this after Pluribus, which is the maybe 0.5 speed version of your show and I love dearly, but engaged with actually some of the same themes as Paradise. And I feel like I hold space in my heart for shows at both of those paces. I do question how they're going to wrap this up in one more season, which we can get to later, but I didn't mind it.

• 49:57Andy Greenwald?

  Let's talk about the finale and maybe you guys can explain some things to me. Why did they have to blow up the bunker of themselves, essentially? I know that, I know that some people were against it and I know that luckily the psychiatrist in charge of Utopia.

• 50:11Speaker 05

  Dr. Tarabi.

• 50:12Andy Greenwald?

  Thanks, guys. After knifing someone to death in the shower, although maybe not.

• 50:17Speaker 05

  Clearly not.

• 50:18Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe not.

• 50:19Chris Ryan?

  She can come back in some other capacity because like there's already somebody traveling back in time.

• 50:24Speaker 05

  But she also didn't kill her.

• 50:25Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 50:26Speaker 05

  At a hundred percent, she's not dead.

• 50:28Andy Greenwald?

  It was just more she needed to rest and that was a great, great shower pressure.

• 50:31Speaker 05

  Anytime a psychotic killer is stabbed and they don't check the body, it's 99% chance she's alive.

• 50:36Chris Ryan?

  That was a big knife, though. I think it's more likely that Jane comes back a la Dylan.

• 50:40Andy Greenwald?

  I believe deeply in the power of therapy, psychotherapy, but I think that she's a little bit out in front of her skis.

• 50:48Chris Ryan?

  You have to understand.

• 50:49Andy Greenwald?

  Running, running society and murdering people.

• 50:51Chris Ryan?

  There's just not that many people in the cabinet anymore. You know what I mean? Like, you saw that control tower room when they, when she's like, I do Exodus. It's like the woman there is also the woman who works at the diner, you know, like.

• 51:03Andy Greenwald?

  There was that point. I was like, the, the fiction of the show, maybe this is why they had to get out of the bunker, is that this is either the best and brightest or the most connected.

• 51:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:11Andy Greenwald?

  And then you see the person whose job it is to type going like, yikes, things seem to be going haywire. The executive suite, type, type, type, type.

• 51:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:19Andy Greenwald?

  Why did she get to go there?

• 51:20Chris Ryan?

  I don't, I don't even remember honestly, like what the criteria was for people to get into Colorado, though. Like, they, how did they pick the 2,500 people?

• 51:29Speaker 05

  She helped her design the community, like pick all of the, the psychiatry, yeah, the psychologist helped. She like did the psychological profiling.

• 51:36Andy Greenwald?

  I'm okay with her being there. Wait, hold on. I'm fine with her being there. I just feel like.

• 51:39Chris Ryan?

  When she's the chief executive, it was a little bit surprising.

• 51:42Speaker 05

  The chain of command after the pres, both presidents went down and Sinatra was missing, not something they planned for her, clearly.

• 51:48Andy Greenwald?

  They did not. And the entire plane full of Congress didn't make it, right?

• 51:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:52Andy Greenwald?

  See, I remember some aspects of the show.

• 51:54Speaker 05

  The nuclear meltdown had been initiated at the same time as the lockdown. It was like two things in conflict and, and there was no way to stop it.

• 52:00Andy Greenwald?

  But it was on purpose to let's tear this whole thing down, right?

• 52:02Chris Ryan?

  I think it was Cal's son did something with the German guy to be like.

• 52:06Speaker 05

  The meltdown.

• 52:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 05

  Cause they wanted to force it to open the doors, so people had to leave.

• 52:10Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 52:10Speaker 05

  At the same time, the people in the tower initiated a lockdown. So it was like a conflict.

• 52:14Chris Ryan?

  Because the militia was trying to get in, because.

• 52:16Andy Greenwald?

  So it really remains chain of command issues, just communication.

• 52:19Chris Ryan?

  So what's your, is your question, like, why did they start the meltdown in the first place?

• 52:23Andy Greenwald?

  It just, the, the thing about the show that I really admire is that it is so confident with its, its core convictions and its story, that things just keep happening. And there's rarely a moment to be like, why did this happen? But that's okay. It's okay. Look where we are now.

• 52:38Chris Ryan?

  So.

• 52:38Andy Greenwald?

  We're going to the Denver airport, a place that I would never go intentionally, so I really understand.

• 52:43Chris Ryan?

  Denver airport's got some stuff to it. Yeah. Have you ever read about it?

• 52:46Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 52:47Chris Ryan?

  There's supposed to be like an Illuminati headquarters underneath of the Denver.

• 52:50Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, underneath, underneath the Hell Horse?

• 52:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 52:53Andy Greenwald?

  That's actually.

• 52:53Chris Ryan?

  Like, there's a lot of, like, art and, like, iconography in the Denver Airport that's, like, very Illuminati-coded, apparently.

• 53:00Andy Greenwald?

  You guys have awesome Reddit.

• 53:01Chris Ryan?

  You gotta come on in a second with Jason Concepcion.

• 53:04Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, sorry. So, it happens.

• 53:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:07Andy Greenwald?

  And, uh, we're, I don't know, I don't have any question anymore. We're cool with it. It's time to leave the bunker.

• 53:13Chris Ryan?

  I'm gonna start with the end, because I thought this was, like, an interesting place to put this show. You mentioned, how are they gonna tie this up in a season? I also am like, what happens now? Because, for better or for worse, and even though she had some moments of, like, vulnerability, like, Sinatra's been the antagonist for the first two seasons, and now we, apparently, are, are gonna be without her for the season three now. On a Dan Fogelman show, as people have said, no one ever really dies.

• 53:38Speaker 05

  Particularly this show.

• 53:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and no one's ever really gone, so I'm sure we can still get some more Julian Nicholson in flashback. And she could become a time traveler herself. But I, I wonder whether or not you guys had any feelings about what, what a non-Samantha, non-Sinatra show looks like.

• 53:56Speaker 05

  Well, I thought this finale episode, aside from all the science fiction, that answering the questions and the time travel, which we can get to, one of the most abrupt turns was just having her completely change her personality in the finale.

• 54:07Andy Greenwald?

  Hundred percent.

• 54:09Speaker 05

  Which I, part of me is, like, finds it a little sauce after she was such a big bad in season one and vaguely,

• 54:16Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 54:16Speaker 05

  you know, demonic, but.

• 54:18Chris Ryan?

  And took a gunshot to the sternum and then immediately was just like, I'm still bad.

• 54:21Speaker 05

  Pretty savage.

• 54:22Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know a lot about stitches, although I do watch The Pit, but I feel like had you been shot here, stretching to rescue children from an elevator is a, you know, would present problems.

• 54:32Speaker 05

  Uh, if you are to believe that the, her revelation, it could be two things. One, that her son is alive in some form. Or her revelation, and I think this is core to the finale, that Alex is working, that everything she did was in service of creating this technology. We could talk about what it did and it had it, she finally had it affirmed to her that it was actually working.

• 54:53Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:55Speaker 05

  Suddenly she's free to not be a psychopath anymore.

• 54:57Andy Greenwald?

  It took the edge off.

• 54:58Chris Ryan?

  Right. Took the edge off.

• 55:00Speaker 05

  Uh, I thought, yeah, I think though, you're right, your question about what would the show look like without her going forward? It's unclear who then would be the antagonist.

• 55:09Chris Ryan?

  Right. Now, I mean, obviously there could still, like, all these sort of dystopian shows, you could always find another band of, of rebels in the next town over. Like now these people are basically gonna be wandering around the West looking for a new home, I guess.

• 55:24Andy Greenwald?

  Which, by the way, seems fine. Everyone out in the world seems pretty kind.

• 55:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, you know what? That's the funny thing about this show is that for the most part, like, you don't really have, like, the Walking Dead. Like, we've decided to create a religion out of a baseball bat kind of things, you know, like, you may have quit Walking Dead by the time that happened.

• 55:42Andy Greenwald?

  However, that's actually what you sounded like on Thursday during Philly's opening day. Like, my entire personality now is this team. And then it got real quiet when we lost the next two games.

• 55:52Chris Ryan?

  Sorry.

• 55:52Andy Greenwald?

  It's a long season. I really enjoyed the first half of the season more when it was just like, okay, now we're doing this.

• 55:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 55:58Andy Greenwald?

  That was fine. Like, let's do this. Let's, let's show a different side to what has happened with the world. And then once everyone locked on to their, their character tracks to make the plot move.

• 56:07Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:08Andy Greenwald?

  And once the show telescoped the distance by train from Atlanta to Colorado to about 48 hours, the menace of the character.

• 56:18Chris Ryan?

  Technically, they're literally have to stop anywhere else.

• 56:20Andy Greenwald?

  That's true.

• 56:21Chris Ryan?

  So I don't know how long train travel takes if you're never stopping.

• 56:24Andy Greenwald?

  I think, I think what Alex did was go back in time and empower President Biden to really make cross-country high-speed rail a reality. And we are now benefiting from it. Maybe that was a passion of Cal. Also, a lot of rail travel just works in this show because this episode made it clear that Sinatra, traveled by underground rail car.

• 56:42Chris Ryan?

  100 miles.

• 56:43Andy Greenwald?

  100 miles.

• 56:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:44Andy Greenwald?

  There and back, uh, all in one day.

• 56:47Chris Ryan?

  And she's like, what's up? Something going on?

• 56:49Andy Greenwald?

  He's like, oh, nice to see you. You're gonna die today.

• 56:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:52Andy Greenwald?

  She took that well, I thought.

• 56:54Chris Ryan?

  Um, but yeah, I just think that, uh, look, there's any number of people now, I suppose, are viable participants in this time travel scenario. And perhaps Marsden comes back in some capacity.

• 57:06Andy Greenwald?

  He's never left.

• 57:08Chris Ryan?

  Oh, you mean like? I mean, like, he comes back as like, as like an actual, like. Cow, but like not the president, just a guy who's like-

• 57:14Speaker 05

  Welcome return, by the way.

• 57:16Chris Ryan?

  For sure.

• 57:16Speaker 05

  When he was back, it-

• 57:17Andy Greenwald?

  It's great.

• 57:18Speaker 05

  It's interesting, I'm enjoying the new season of Jury Duty, but like-

• 57:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 57:21Speaker 05

  He is the missing-

• 57:22Chris Ryan?

  Well, he's on- He's on Friends and Neighbors this season. It's like, you get one season of Marsden.

• 57:27Speaker 05

  It's delightful. It's just the comic relief of him alone. You're talking about sort of next season and the loss of the antagonist. For me, I want to raise a question, which is, I think for the first season, one of the reasons it worked so well was that the menace, the catastrophe felt realistic because it was a climate change. You know, we all know, episode seven was this incredible episode because it was, it felt a little real.

• 57:50Chris Ryan?

  And it was shock different, and it was, I think, acted differently.

• 57:53Speaker 05

  There's a lot of that. But, but the, you know, the apocalypse is triggered by something that does feel sort of vaguely realistic. Now that the show was firmly entering this different part, it's a science fiction show, and it was arguably before, but it feels much more so now. Do you feel that the menace of the climate change and like the realism of like, this could happen to us?

• 58:13Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 58:13Speaker 05

  Because that's, to me, what made the first season feel menacing and dangerous.

• 58:18Chris Ryan?

  Because I, I had hoped that maybe if something like this was going to be happening in the season finale, that it would mirror the seventh episode of the first season and that we would get this kind of like gripping, like verite take on it. And it was very good, but it was like, very shot on Fox lot kind of vibes. And I wonder now,

• 58:42Chris Ryan?

  to your point about like, how do they wrap this up? Like, are they gonna try and go back in time and solve climate change? Or are they like, we're just trying to make the present better and learn the lessons of the past?

• 58:53Speaker 05

  Like, what is Alex actually doing?

• 58:54Chris Ryan?

  Exactly.

• 58:55Speaker 05

  Should we get into it?

• 58:55Andy Greenwald?

  She does intentionally, I'm, we're almost there, I promise. She does say that we need, I'm writing you a blank check because this is about our-

• 59:02Speaker 05

  Stopping it, yeah.

• 59:03Andy Greenwald?

  It's about climate catastrophe and all that. I think what we're seeing, though, is an interesting exercise in, I'm sorry to go back to not the time travel, but the time literally in terms of the speed of the show. Resolutions on shows like this are rarely as satisfying as the delicious tension of the questioning, and it can be stretched too far, like with Lost, and people start to get impatient. But a show like this that really puts down its marker, that one of the central themes emotionally is gonna be Xavier looking for his wife, and these kids need their mom, and what happened to her. They really answered that.

• 59:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:33Andy Greenwald?

  They identified her, they told her story, he found her quite easily and then everything was fine. You know what I mean? They got on a train, they brought a baby and now they're back with the kids.

• 59:41Speaker 05

  Right.

• 59:42Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think Dan Fogelman and his team are wrong that actually seeing Presley hug her mom does not need to be like, we don't need to be held at tender hooks for that, that doesn't need to be delayed. It's a nice moment. But it's, okay, that's resolved and now we're on to the next thing. And once you go into that, let's resolve things, let's tap everything on the head and push it down. That can be less satisfying than we think it might be.

• 1:00:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:01Andy Greenwald?

  Everything is now locked into this. The point of the show is not to have these interesting questions about climate or who we are, who we are to each other. It's about what's under the Denver airport and what's it gonna say?

• 1:00:11Speaker 05

  I think the things that were most interesting about this particular season and the best episodes were a little bit removed from those core questions, which were the two bunker episodes. The one, it was Shailene Woodley where she's holed up in Graceland. And then the one, I thought-

• 1:00:25Chris Ryan?

  The mailman one, yeah.

• 1:00:26Speaker 05

  The mailman episode before they get, you know, where they're in the bunker and they have to rebuild society. Those, to me, were the best episodes of the entire season.

• 1:00:32Andy Greenwald?

  Agreed.

• 1:00:32Speaker 05

  Because in the first episode, you know, it wrestled with climate change and then like made us feel that. Those brought me back to the pandemic, those two episodes. And I felt like, oh, like, wow, I'm really feeling this, I'm so tense watching these. Whereas the actual questions of the season don't quite carry that way. I like them because I love sci-fi and time travel and stuff, but they don't have the same impact.

• 1:00:53Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk about the sci-fi part then.

• 1:00:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:55Chris Ryan?

  So Alex has been teased over the course of the season and we got some glimpses that first, obviously, we know that, we knew that Dylan was the kid who Billy doesn't kill.

• 1:01:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:07Chris Ryan?

  Because Henry begs him, like, he's just like, I think you're here for a reason.

• 1:01:12Speaker 05

  Nosebleed.

• 1:01:12Chris Ryan?

  You know, your nosebleed, here's a napkin for your nosebleed, but like in a minute, this kid's gonna walk through the door and please spare his life. And he does.

• 1:01:21Chris Ryan?

  Alex is mentioned multiple times. When Link is talking to Geiger about killing Alex, he makes it sound like a person. It doesn't seem like that's gonna be the case. And then that's proved correctly, correct, when we find out Alex is in fact a supercomputer that has been- Manipulating time, I think, is like the best explanation we've gotten of it. Or we haven't really gotten a deep explanation as to like what Alex can do.

• 1:01:46Speaker 05

  We've seen some things.

• 1:01:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, we've seen that like Alex, we've seen that Dylan is at once probably Samantha's child, but also exists in a world as a guy in his early twenties who has been to Caltech. Right? But was also working at REI. So do you think there are multiple Dylans and Lynx? Like, what do you think is going on now?

• 1:02:09Speaker 05

  Yeah. All right. So.

• 1:02:10Chris Ryan?

  Let's go. Let's go.

• 1:02:12Speaker 05

  All right. So here's what we know Alex can do, right? We know Alex can predict the future. We see that at the beginning of this episode. Starts off by saying, which by the way, is is kind of realistic with AI and quantum computing, that a computer would be able to run a bunch of simulations and tell you things that are going to happen in the future. Yeah. We also know that Alex can hop on Aments to Messenger and hit up the past.

• 1:02:33Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 1:02:33Speaker 05

  We see that in the Jane episode. So those are the two things we've seen that it can do. And Sinatra is still learning. At the beginning of this episode, he tells her, this is the first time she knows that it can do these things. She mentions that she's seen what she believes to be an anomaly. We also know that Alex can predict the future because in the flashback at the beginning of this episode, it's why the scientist wants to shut it down.

• 1:02:56Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:02:56Speaker 05

  Right? He's like, this is too much.

• 1:02:57Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:02:58Speaker 05

  So I think with regards to how much it can actually affect time, what's still unclear is whether or not Alex is setting in motion some of these coincidences or precipitating events in the past that alter, either create multiple timelines, which is, you know, one of the solutions to the closed loop paradoxes.

• 1:03:21Chris Ryan?

  Just look right at me when you say it.

• 1:03:22Speaker 05

  Keep going.

• 1:03:23Chris Ryan?

  It's working.

• 1:03:25Speaker 05

  Or whether or not it's just like little tweaks in the existing timeline. Dylan, to me, is the core question, like.

• 1:03:35Speaker 05

  Like you said, is this the same kid? How would Sinatra be meeting her son after seeing him die? How, that's what's still unclear.

• 1:03:44Andy Greenwald?

  So when, so when she says, we have, we get the bit of dialogue that's muffled the first time through in the end, when we see what Sinatra says to Xavier.

• 1:03:52Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:03:52Andy Greenwald?

  And it's, "I need you to do this, why would I do that? I believe you already did."

• 1:03:57Chris Ryan?

  And gives him the card that says, "User X."

• 1:03:59Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:03:59Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 1:04:00Andy Greenwald?

  So, is the goal, you know what? I don't know why I'm looking at you. Is the goal to reboot reality so this never happens?

• 1:04:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:09Andy Greenwald?

  Or?

• 1:04:10Speaker 05

  Well, then you're getting a real close loop.

• 1:04:11Chris Ryan?

  So, here's the other thing that I, I need, I'm trying to figure out. Like, the Jane thing was so anticlimactic with Tarabi, like, getting the jump on her, killing her maybe in the shower.

• 1:04:23Speaker 05

  Finish the job!

• 1:04:24Chris Ryan?

  But Jane seems to be someone that Alex has been hunting through time, right? Like, what is, what is the message?

• 1:04:31Speaker 05

  She can be stopped.

• 1:04:31Chris Ryan?

  She can be stopped. Why does she need to be stopped? And what does she do?

• 1:04:36Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:04:37Chris Ryan?

  Eventually, that needs to be undone, right? Like, so, is Jane someone who will come back the same way Dylan has come back, or Link has come back in different forms? And would she kill Xavier? Would she kill Dylan? Like, is the third season, because if that's the case, I think that is interesting, but I hope that the character that comes back as Jane, like, the actor, the actor, but like, the character, I could use a couple of wrinkles.

• 1:05:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:05:07Chris Ryan?

  Other than, "I play we and kill people," like.

• 1:05:10Andy Greenwald?

  I don't.

• 1:05:11Speaker 05

  Dick in the Box was like, "Come on, we're really hitting all the female serial killer hits."

• 1:05:16Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know, at least Link didn't make any pop culture references this episode, which I appreciate.

• 1:05:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he really had, well, he had a nuclear meltdown on his hands.

• 1:05:23Andy Greenwald?

  True.

• 1:05:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:24Andy Greenwald?

  And, uh, new fatherhood.

• 1:05:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Andy Greenwald?

  A lot, a lot, really a lot on his plate. I can't believe I'm doing this so soon after just absolutely bodying Chris with his love of Lord of the Rings, but I must say. A hallmark of the Legend of Zelda games.

• 1:05:36Speaker 05

  Yes, a Karina of Time.

• 1:05:37Chris Ryan?

  But it's not an accident that he.

• 1:05:39Andy Greenwald?

  I know.

• 1:05:39Speaker 05

  He's lame Link for a reason.

• 1:05:40Andy Greenwald?

  Is that there have been many, many games, but very few of them are sequels. It's just like, well, we're back in this world and there's always a Link and there's always a Zelda and there's always a bad guy and now it looks like this. And now you've become friends with fish people and now maybe there's a Jane and now there isn't a Jane or Jane is this now, an idea, not a person. So is that where we're headed?

• 1:06:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think Link is the most important character in the show now.

• 1:06:03Chris Ryan?

  Me too.

• 1:06:04Speaker 05

  And I think if we're to believe that Alex is a computer that's been tasked. Crucially, we don't know if Sinatra, you know, programmed or whatever Alex to stop the first climate change event somehow.

• 1:06:19Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:19Speaker 05

  Or to stop the second one that we know is coming.

• 1:06:23Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right.

• 1:06:23Speaker 05

  Because you remember the original Dr. Luge, I think his name was, told her, and then you think it's over and then the world heats up again. And it's after she gets that knowledge that she goes and tries to.

• 1:06:33Andy Greenwald?

  Do the bigger thing.

• 1:06:34Speaker 05

  Buy out the company.

• 1:06:35Chris Ryan?

  The other thing is that I don't know that she didn't invent Alex to get Dylan back.

• 1:06:40Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:06:40Chris Ryan?

  Right? Like, or if that was gonna be like, hopefully, I can use a little bit of this computing power. Like, I'll just build two or three data centers to work on.

• 1:06:48Speaker 05

  So we know that Alex is being programmed or whatever to do one of these two things. I think everything that has happened that I believe Alex has initiated has been oriented towards keeping Link alive.

• 1:07:03Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:03Speaker 05

  Um, including the whole baby plotline. What is this baby here? Why did Xavier go to Atlanta? Why did he bring the baby back? All of it is, in this moment, in this finale episode, when they meet for the first time and the visions go crazy, he is altering the path again so that Link doesn't destroy Alex, so he leaves to go see his baby. It's crucial that the baby comes back to the bunker.

• 1:07:26Chris Ryan?

  And that Xavier meets him right at that moment.

• 1:07:29Speaker 05

  Exactly, at that moment. And then he has like the vision of like Link in the tunnel, which I believe would have been like the alternate timeline had he not arrived with the baby.

• 1:07:37Andy Greenwald?

  Here's a baby question.

• 1:07:38Speaker 05

  And nose please, everybody's nose please.

• 1:07:42Andy Greenwald?

  Found it odd that a man meets his newborn baby and is like, "I shall name this baby for a woman I had sex with once."

• 1:07:51Chris Ryan?

  The mother of the child.

• 1:07:53Andy Greenwald?

  That also.

• 1:07:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54Andy Greenwald?

  Unless, because everything on this show is pretty straightforward.

• 1:07:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Andy Greenwald?

  Is this Annie again?

• 1:07:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Andy Greenwald?

  Is he the father of?

• 1:08:02Speaker 05

  It's like an immaculate.

• 1:08:03Chris Ryan?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:08:04Andy Greenwald?

  So it really is just like in honor of?

• 1:08:06Chris Ryan?

  It's in honor of Annie, but I think... Shit.

• 1:08:11Speaker 05

  There's a little bit of an immaculate conception thing going on.

• 1:08:13Chris Ryan?

  It is a little bit of like, uh, like this is Jesus's baby.

• 1:08:17Andy Greenwald?

  Link Jesus.

• 1:08:18Chris Ryan?

  You know, the Scorsese version of Jesus.

• 1:08:20Speaker 05

  If you really, like, if you're, it's, if you really think about like, why did Xavier go to Atlanta? Why did they go through all of this? Why did he find that baby? Why did he weirdly keep the baby with him?

• 1:08:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 05

  Through the lens of everything that happens in the show is about Alex trying to manipulate people's decisions or time to get Link to not destroy him, I guess. We also don't know why Link wants to destroy Alex, but that's a whole other.

• 1:08:43Chris Ryan?

  How many nosebleeders do we have?

• 1:08:45Speaker 05

  Great question.

• 1:08:46Chris Ryan?

  There's.

• 1:08:46Andy Greenwald?

  Really good question.

• 1:08:47Chris Ryan?

  Dylan and Xavier. Did Jane ever get nosebleeds?

• 1:08:50Speaker 05

  No, but Billy did.

• 1:08:51Chris Ryan?

  Billy got nosebleeds.

• 1:08:52Speaker 05

  Billy did because.

• 1:08:53Chris Ryan?

  My homie.

• 1:08:54Speaker 05

  The scientist was like, "Don't kill that guy." Sees him, nosebleeds.

• 1:08:58Andy Greenwald?

  So do nosebleeds happen when?

• 1:09:00Chris Ryan?

  They've.

• 1:09:00Speaker 05

  Alex has interfered, I believe.

• 1:09:01Andy Greenwald?

  When they've changed the timeline?

• 1:09:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:09:03Chris Ryan?

  I think there are like, basically like, uh...

• 1:09:05Andy Greenwald?

  Wow, so my childhood was just rife with timeline aberrations.

• 1:09:08Chris Ryan?

  But do you remember like the Hayden Christensen movie where he's like jumping through time? Jumpers?

• 1:09:12Andy Greenwald?

  Revenge of the Sith.

• 1:09:13Chris Ryan?

  Uh, that, I think that those, there are a couple of characters who are ju- like, moving through these timelines.

• 1:09:21Speaker 05

  You think so? So you think Link is crossing timelines as a, yeah. I mean, that, the, what hap- what is, how is he here is also?

• 1:09:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it's also like, why does Dylan, if Dylan is a kid who dies, why does the kid who walks into that room like, "I'm the biggest computer expert", and then also several years later is like, "I'm just working at an REI"?

• 1:09:43Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:09:44Chris Ryan?

  So like.

• 1:09:44Andy Greenwald?

  Are you, the comedy?

• 1:09:45Speaker 05

  Well, he dropped out of college, right?

• 1:09:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Okay.

• 1:09:48Speaker 05

  So that was, well, what we don't know is why do Dylan and Sinatra not know each other? Right? Because if he was saved in some way.

• 1:09:56Andy Greenwald?

  He would have known each other.

• 1:09:57Speaker 05

  How were they separated from each other? That's one of the core questions.

• 1:10:01Chris Ryan?

  Right. But like, for all we know. The Dylan who's like been re- like, there's a Dylan that's like reborn, basically. To your Annie point, like, maybe there are characters who are like born again. And the fact that Alex is going back to Jane's birth to be like, do something about this and everybody is just like, you're freaking me out, like.

• 1:10:19Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:10:20Chris Ryan?

  Like, that, that would suggest that maybe there's like cycles of life that go through these particular characters. Yes.

• 1:10:27Andy Greenwald?

  I will say from a broad television perspective, I am more bullish on the third season because I do think that the bunker was, we're done.

• 1:10:36Chris Ryan?

  I agree, if they stick to this, it's three seasons and out thing.

• 1:10:40Andy Greenwald?

  It seems.

• 1:10:41Chris Ryan?

  It seems like they are.

• 1:10:41Andy Greenwald?

  Seems like they are.

• 1:10:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:43Andy Greenwald?

  Unless they do like Legend of Zelda style and then there's like Paradise Skyward Sword, you know? And it's like a whole.

• 1:10:48Speaker 05

  What is the, other than the names of basic characters on this show and things that happen? What is the biggest question that you have that you want solved in the final season?

• 1:10:59Andy Greenwald?

  Well, okay, well, I'll answer that, but first I would. No, the biggest, uh, the biggest thing that I want solved.

• 1:11:07Speaker 05

  Or answered for you or clarified.

• 1:11:09Andy Greenwald?

  This is why my engagement with the show I think is successful is because profoundly I don't think I care.

• 1:11:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:15Andy Greenwald?

  I enjoy its mania.

• 1:11:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Andy Greenwald?

  I enjoy some of the actors. I have liked the show best when it has done one half of the, of the Lost sandwich, which is just like the emotional backstory of the, the backstory of these characters contain the, the hidden truths of their current whatever, and we will explore those stories and we will present.

• 1:11:38Chris Ryan?

  It's a sturdy ship, yeah.

• 1:11:40Andy Greenwald?

  And I, and, and ultimately like Sterling Brown is like, I will find my wife. You know, like that is a good compelling show.

• 1:11:47Chris Ryan?

  I love it when a.

• 1:11:48Andy Greenwald?

  It's not just stuff I have, I've never taken, I, I've never even become interested enough in what she is or what she's doing to pay attention.

• 1:11:55Chris Ryan?

  But she's very, like, as a performer, so compelling that you're like, I'm engaged, yeah.

• 1:12:00Andy Greenwald?

  In one of the Alex alt histories, do you think Sandra Huler plays that part? I just saw Hail Mary and I was like, that's the Sinatra I would follow.

• 1:12:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but I don't know if that's like somebody, like everybody's just like this, I'm really fired up to work for this lady.

• 1:12:14Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know, the Germans are really setting a good example these days.

• 1:12:17Chris Ryan?

  I did want to ask about this, The Other Paradise, which is. All the time when you're watching like the San Antonio Spurs and then all of a sudden Wemby leaves the floor and you're like, eh, okay. And there are some good players.

• 1:12:33Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:12:34Chris Ryan?

  But it's not Wemby. And that's how I sometimes feel when either Sterling K. Brown or Jalen Nicholson's not on the screen.

• 1:12:39Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:12:39Chris Ryan?

  Specifically, the teens.

• 1:12:41Speaker 05

  Oh, my God.

• 1:12:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, the new mutants.

• 1:12:43Andy Greenwald?

  We have to do something about the kids, Marty.

• 1:12:46Speaker 05

  Mercifully, somewhat marginalized in this episode.

• 1:12:50Chris Ryan?

  Well, here's my big worry for season three.

• 1:12:53Speaker 05

  Oh, no.

• 1:12:53Chris Ryan?

  Is that Cal's son, who we have not really quite addressed yet, initiates a nuclear meltdown.

• 1:13:02Andy Greenwald?

  He did do that, yeah.

• 1:13:03Chris Ryan?

  Yes, he did do that. And I don't know if he's gonna pay the piper for that, or anyone's gonna get to the bottom of that, or if he's gonna be like, look, there was only one way to open the doors. But I, I don't know that I find them to be the most compelling group of characters.

• 1:13:18Andy Greenwald?

  There was a moment in this episode when, what's her name, Nicole, Secret Service agent.

• 1:13:25Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:13:25Andy Greenwald?

  To get Agent Robinson. Yeah, I'm sorry, I call her Nicole. It's been two seasons.

• 1:13:33Andy Greenwald?

  When she is suddenly quite injured.

• 1:13:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:35Andy Greenwald?

  And she has to, you know, people always love to say, go on without me in hallways where gas is leaking from places. And she's like, I loved your father.

• 1:13:44Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:13:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:13:45Andy Greenwald?

  We all do. I need you to become the man he always believed you to be. I won't let you die here with me.

• 1:13:52Chris Ryan?

  Didn't Cal mostly drink whiskey and like, make like wisecracks?

• 1:13:56Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. In that moment, when it did appear that Agent Robinson was no longer going to be with us in the present tense, where I was like, Chris Marshall, the actor.

• 1:14:06Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:14:07Andy Greenwald?

  Should have a phone call with her team. Because she got upped to a regular this season. And she was like, I can't wait to come back to the bunker. I have so much to do. And they're like, our vision for you this season is to, we have a tank top, and you're gonna go into the prison colony and hang out with some wooden teenagers.

• 1:14:22Speaker 05

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:14:23Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, and a German.

• 1:14:24Speaker 05

  It didn't help that the prison colony was like staged, like a theatrical production of like the Glass Managers. They were like literally just in a weird little dark yard.

• 1:14:34Chris Ryan?

  Like steam room.

• 1:14:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, and it never felt dangerous and nothing ever really happened down there.

• 1:14:39Andy Greenwald?

  It was like Silo meets Schmigadoon.

• 1:14:41Chris Ryan?

  Well, this is the thing is like they also have three teens and I understand they're like completely cut off from like cultural influences and stuff like that, but.

• 1:14:48Andy Greenwald?

  Where are you going with this?

• 1:14:50Chris Ryan?

  Well, they're, they're just vanilla. They're like, I am a young person. They're not like, there's not like one who's like, I have a drinking problem.

• 1:14:58Speaker 05

  How dare you hack into the entire mainframe?

• 1:15:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, she's a hacker. Is one's like an emerging political leader who's like a podcaster in the manosphere and has like people gathering in town hall to be like, this guy's really speaking to us.

• 1:15:13Speaker 05

  I think it's telling that the only scene that I enjoyed with the teens all season long was when Presley and Cal's son reunited, started making out and Xavier was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, too long. That was the only point where I laughed all, all season, seeing the teens.

• 1:15:29Andy Greenwald?

  Because the other thing that we.

• 1:15:31Speaker 05

  Or Presley, yeah, Presley.

• 1:15:32Andy Greenwald?

  We know this, but we were just reminded of it at the Oscars. Like Sterling Brown is funny.

• 1:15:36Speaker 05

  Super funny.

• 1:15:37Andy Greenwald?

  And he can, and I know that the part doesn't ask for a lot of humor, but when he plays the other things that he can play, again, when the show has room for it, that is what you sacrifice when you're just a freight train on the Paradise timetable going towards the finale.

• 1:15:50Speaker 05

  He doesn't get a second to rest in this show.

• 1:15:53Chris Ryan?

  Now that I'm thinking about it.

• 1:15:54Andy Greenwald?

  Well, the season, season one started with him jogging and season two ends with him running and you know, there's a nice little symmetry.

• 1:15:58Chris Ryan?

  This show's success, I think, is rooted in the fact that it makes you think something crazy is happening while the show itself is incredibly conservative. Like something wilder than the world ending would be Sterling K. Brown, years separated from Terry, like falls in love out on the road or something like that, you know, has like, like that there would be something different going on and like instead it's like, nope, I found Terry.

• 1:16:24Andy Greenwald?

  Everything's fine.

• 1:16:24Chris Ryan?

  Our kids are fine. We got out of the nuclear explosion.

• 1:16:27Speaker 05

  Whoa, whoa, whoa. Terry doesn't know about the shower sexy.

• 1:16:30Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 1:16:31Andy Greenwald?

  Well, first of all, that's.

• 1:16:32Speaker 05

  That's the real.

• 1:16:33Andy Greenwald?

  The real crime scene, the real crime scene is Dr. Tarabi's shower.

• 1:16:36Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 1:16:36Andy Greenwald?

  That's where it all happens. Uh, can we just discuss one last major point that is really, really rankles me? The song "Another Day in Paradise", from Phil, by Phil Collins, from his seminal album, Dot, Dot, Dot, But Seriously,

• 1:16:50Chris Ryan?

  I, I,

• 1:16:50Andy Greenwald?

  is an absolutely ham-fisted song about the perils of homelessness. This show deeply wants us to believe-

• 1:16:59Chris Ryan?

  Are these people not homeless?

• 1:17:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, they're basically camping at the end, which by the way, they didn't plan for that at all. Like, they're just-

• 1:17:07Chris Ryan?

  They're just walking around.

• 1:17:08Speaker 05

  Just chilling.

• 1:17:09Andy Greenwald?

  No, not that! Can we talk-

• 1:17:10Speaker 05

  It's like Griffith Park out there.

• 1:17:11Andy Greenwald?

  There were, there was not one-

• 1:17:12Chris Ryan?

  It's clearly Agoura Hills! And they're like, "It's Colorado!"

• 1:17:17Andy Greenwald?

  I think by train, we could make it to the Calabasas Saddlery by sunset. I,

• 1:17:24Andy Greenwald?

  there were not one, two electric SUVs fleeing the bunker filled with nothing but gold lamps?

• 1:17:31Speaker 05

  Did notice that.

• 1:17:32Chris Ryan?

  I did not notice that.

• 1:17:33Andy Greenwald?

  The second one-

• 1:17:34Speaker 05

  See, that's the kind of thing you notice-

• 1:17:34Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I'm watching.

• 1:17:35Speaker 05

  Instead of the character's name, that is why you're-

• 1:17:38Chris Ryan?

  I'm a pop guy, what can I say?

• 1:17:40Andy Greenwald?

  It was the second one that Tarabi stopped and said, "You greedy bastards", and she reached in, and she pulled out all the lamps, and put in a man on crutches.

• 1:17:50Speaker 05

  Lamps would be useful, though, in a post-apocalyptic setting.

• 1:17:53Andy Greenwald?

  But there's no electric grid! Mina, you've been in Graceland, they have beams-

• 1:17:56Speaker 05

  They have a train.

• 1:17:57Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:57Chris Ryan?

  Tarabi should be actually just like, "Can we unpack why you stole the lamps?"

• 1:18:01Andy Greenwald?

  And then also unpack the lamps.

• 1:18:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and then I'll stab you in the kidney with a long knife. Well, okay. That's all, and that's really all I had about this episode and, and the next season.

• 1:18:12Andy Greenwald?

  What are you looking forward to, Mina?

• 1:18:14Speaker 05

  You know, I, I like the time travel stuff and the questions and the loop. I, like, I love Looper. It's one of my favorite movies. So, I, I'm all, I'm here for, "How do you solve these paradoxes that we've been discussing?" But, um, I, they need to find a way to create, like, the menace that is in the first season with the climate change stuff. I think in the second season, they did it with the bunker episodes. They really, I, I was like, "Ooh, this is like the Graceland episode", was probably the most dangerous.

• 1:18:40Chris Ryan?

  That was really cool.

• 1:18:41Speaker 05

  So how do you create- Stakes and danger beyond just telling us the stakes of like, how, you know, how do we prevent another climate change crisis? Or how do we figure out who's challenging? Like, no, no, in the season, you know, you gotta find ways, whether it's like a band of a militia or marauders or whatever. And then I would like to see them slow it down again for Sterling K. Brown, because he's so good in those. And I think in the Grey's Anatomy episode, he got some moments like that. But then he was just so, like you said, so busy these final few episodes. We didn't get that much with him, and I find him to be such a compelling actor.

• 1:19:14Andy Greenwald?

  It's a really good point because there is no established antagonist for season three, unless we are digging in the vaults and bringing people back.

• 1:19:22Chris Ryan?

  Well, that's what I was, I was gonna say is that when the season started, I was like, Chaeling Woodley's really good. You know, like, she's a good actress.

• 1:19:30Speaker 05

  Crushed.

• 1:19:31Chris Ryan?

  And I was like, I thought it was a very effective use of someone who's probably not like, yes, I have seven months to shoot Paradise, like, no problem. Like, she was really good in the limited amount of time she was on screen. The show needs one more person, especially if Julia Nicholson is not gonna be in the show as like a current, so it needs whoever.

• 1:19:51Andy Greenwald?

  We should bring more, we should bring more, this is very, this is a Bill-ism. They need one more, they're one guard away, one move away.

• 1:19:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but they-

• 1:19:58Andy Greenwald?

  As opposed to the Too Many Guys shows, which exist.

• 1:20:01Speaker 05

  I was gonna say, yeah, we're looking at a desk now, and we've got Sterling K. Brown sitting there giving Kate, like, did we really wanna add another analyst to the desk?

• 1:20:08Chris Ryan?

  Well, I mean, it's, you know, we know what, Andy and I are fans of a team that are perhaps top-heavy, you know? But like, I think that they could use like Joel Kinnaman as the manifestation of Alex, you know what I mean? Or something. You know, like, they need something that's like another chapter.

• 1:20:24Speaker 05

  I think season three is gonna be about whether, yeah.

• 1:20:28Andy Greenwald?

  All respect.

• 1:20:30Speaker 05

  Not my favorite episode. Uh, season three is gonna answer the question, is Alex good or bad? We don't actually know, right? Because we know Link wants to destroy it. We know, we, like, is Alex actually trying to solve climate change and save the earth? Or did Alex cause this all to begin with is going to be the core?

• 1:20:45Andy Greenwald?

  Does Alex want Link to destroy it ultimately, once it's done? Because then it has really restarted the world.

• 1:20:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I got you.

• 1:20:56Chris Ryan?

  If I had to vote for one of those outcomes, it's not going to be that AI was was was a great personal assistant.

• 1:21:02Andy Greenwald?

  Was looking out for us.

• 1:21:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I don't imagine that that is going to be the the solution. I think there will be a contingent of people who are like, I don't want to go back. Like, this is working for me.

• 1:21:12Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 1:21:13Chris Ryan?

  Like, this world is now better, you know?

• 1:21:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:21:16Chris Ryan?

  Uh, but I don't know. I don't know where I I land on whether Alex has caused this or is trying to solve it. Because Sam Samantha's like, reasons for using Alex the way she does are still a mystery.

• 1:21:28Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:21:29Chris Ryan?

  As are Dylan's desire. It's Dylan's desire to destroy it. I guess you could say he knows something about what Henry knew about like, why he was like, we have to turn this thing off.

• 1:21:39Speaker 05

  Hmm. See, I'm really hoping that they pull it off, they destroy it, Paradise the show never happened, and we end with an alternate timeline.

• 1:21:46Chris Ryan?

  Of President Cal?

• 1:21:47Speaker 05

  President Cal's just doing a bracket, you know, on TV or something.

• 1:21:50Chris Ryan?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:21:51Speaker 05

  Which I would love to watch.

• 1:21:51Chris Ryan?

  He's hugging John Calipari, who's still coaching Kentucky, you know?

• 1:21:55Speaker 05

  In the alternate timeline, Kentucky's like, winning the championship.

• 1:21:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but Acoff went to Kentucky.

• 1:21:59Andy Greenwald?

  Do you? You are so on to something. A weekly show in which that guy is president?

• 1:22:04Speaker 05

  Love it.

• 1:22:04Andy Greenwald?

  Would do crazy numbers.

• 1:22:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:07Andy Greenwald?

  It would crush. The budget wouldn't even have to be that big.

• 1:22:09Chris Ryan?

  A functional alcoholic Kentucky.

• 1:22:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it would just be like, this is what he gets up to in between drinking, watching sports, and caring about people.

• 1:22:17Chris Ryan?

  Let me tell you something, Putin, Malik Monk once scored 43 points against UConn.

• 1:22:21Speaker 05

  I want you to love his extended monologue on the fall of empires with different sports.

• 1:22:26Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Um, do you want to do a couple of minutes on Top Chef before we let you go?

• 1:22:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, where are you at with it?

• 1:22:32Speaker 05

  Caught up.

• 1:22:32Chris Ryan?

  She's caught up.

• 1:22:33Speaker 05

  Caught up, yeah.

• 1:22:33Chris Ryan?

  And so if you're not caught up on Top Chef, the next episode is tomorrow night, so, or tonight.

• 1:22:38Andy Greenwald?

  I think it's tonight on Bravo, tomorrow on Peacock. We're filming on Monday.

• 1:22:41Speaker 05

  You guys do Top Chef?

• 1:22:43Chris Ryan?

  Pretty much every week, yeah.

• 1:22:45Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:22:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, this season has really reignited something in us.

• 1:22:48Andy Greenwald?

  We feel.

• 1:22:48Speaker 05

  Has it?

• 1:22:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, so our take is that, if I may.

• 1:22:52Speaker 05

  No, no, you can be.

• 1:22:53Andy Greenwald?

  That Alex has fixed Top Chef and that the show has its mojo back.

• 1:22:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:22:57Andy Greenwald?

  And not just necessarily in terms of the cast of the season, but that, um, production wise and editorially, they have reinvigorated themselves and they are

• 1:23:08Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:23:08Andy Greenwald?

  framing, like, after that first episode with the Kristen helping Nana through the panic attack, I felt like they were taking some British baking show. Congratulations, by the way. That handshake that you got has been shown in my, home to my children. It's one of the most impressive things they've ever seen.

• 1:23:22Speaker 05

  Thank you. I lost, for those who didn't watch. Some are saying it was the worst, uh, snubbing.

• 1:23:27Chris Ryan?

  Who's saying that?

• 1:23:28Speaker 05

  People.

• 1:23:29Andy Greenwald?

  People have come up to me saying that, tears in their eyes.

• 1:23:32Speaker 05

  I saw Von Miller after, at the combine. He won't, he beat me. And the first thing he said to me was, are you still mad at me? You still bitter?

• 1:23:40Chris Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:23:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:23:40Andy Greenwald?

  Well, these guys are pretty competitive.

• 1:23:42Speaker 05

  I mean, you can go look up our final cookie cakes and be the judge for yourself.

• 1:23:47Andy Greenwald?

  So, but I thought that some of that vibe of like editorially, like who the judges are in relation to the contestants has been shifted slightly. And I thought just like the challenges that they're throwing them into, that lack of handholding, uh, Kristen's emergence in general as an exceptional host, I thought has elevated the show.

• 1:24:03Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And I think that they've done, while I do not envy them cooking outdoors in Carolina in what seems like a summer climate, uh, I felt like in the past few seasons, I was like, I have no idea what city this is taking place in.

• 1:24:18Andy Greenwald?

  Or why?

• 1:24:18Chris Ryan?

  It feels like you guys are either in the studio or at Whole Foods and then like at a sports bar, you know? But this is, feels very like they're doing stuff like with the sweet potato challenge, the pepper challenge, where I'm like, this really feels regional. This is cool.

• 1:24:34Speaker 05

  I think they've also really cast this season well with the chefs. Um, I almost felt like the last couple of seasons, which I, you know, I loved Chuck Tristan, the goat.

• 1:24:43Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:24:43Speaker 05

  Uh, not the goat, but one of the, he's already like a pantheon winner for me. But it feels like this season's a little sloppier.

• 1:24:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:51Speaker 05

  I like that. There's some obvious front runners, you know, they're pretty clear. Your Lawrence's, your Rota's, your Anthony's, but, uh, they've got some chefs who are legitimately, like I'm kind of rooting against.

• 1:25:03Chris Ryan?

  The twins are like good TV, you know? They're busting each other's chops much more openly than I think usually the contestants would, you know?

• 1:25:10Speaker 05

  Good TV, but I need them separated immediately. I can't, I can't, I can't have these two twins.

• 1:25:15Chris Ryan?

  It's interesting because then we also have the, the partners, the couple.

• 1:25:18Andy Greenwald?

  What do we think about this couple?

• 1:25:19Speaker 05

  Couple, yeah. Um, it's Seems pretty clear from the jump that the woman is kinda dragging the husband or that the woman was the better chef.

• 1:25:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:30Speaker 05

  But she obviously had to.

• 1:25:31Chris Ryan?

  Now she only has one arm.

• 1:25:31Speaker 05

  One arm, which is brutal.

• 1:25:33Chris Ryan?

  I mean, she has the arm, by the way.

• 1:25:34Speaker 05

  I was very, we talked about this walking in here. I was very worried that they would keep Nana, who I'm sure she's a lovely chef and a lovely person and her food is great. I could not watch another episode of Top Chef with this woman on my TV.

• 1:25:48Chris Ryan?

  It was, is it gonna have to, it was either she was gonna have to go home or she was gonna have to like flip a switch and turn into like, like, like one of the great chefs of all time. Like, and it was, it was just tough. I thought that the way, like you said, like, it was a little bit of an anticlimactic episode, but I think they made the most of it.

• 1:26:07Andy Greenwald?

  It was an opportunity.

• 1:26:08Chris Ryan?

  To really be like, we're gonna interrogate, like, how bad you guys screwed this up. And I wonder if it had been tighter, if they would have been a little nicer about the cooking. But they, since they all knew from the first moment that Nana's stuff got to this table, they're like, well, she's going home, so let's really push them.

• 1:26:25Andy Greenwald?

  I, I think they do things with, I believe, they historically have done a little play with time. I know that probably is maybe why you like the show. And that there's, there's a version of that episode in which they rework it so Nana goes last or goes later.

• 1:26:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:26:40Andy Greenwald?

  Or de-emphasize the early ones so that we could feel more tension until it's clear.

• 1:26:44Speaker 05

  Until, yeah.

• 1:26:45Andy Greenwald?

  That may not, it may have been impossible due to the edit, but she was one of the first chefs to go in this third episode. And I thought that they leaned into it in a way that made it more interesting.

• 1:26:53Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:54Andy Greenwald?

  Everybody.

• 1:26:55Speaker 05

  It was bad.

• 1:26:56Andy Greenwald?

  Everybody was bad. Even the winning chefs didn't do a great, great job with this one.

• 1:26:59Chris Ryan?

  They focused on Tom being like, I thought this was quite good. Like, her, like, little, like, spoonful of onion jam was good, you know?

• 1:27:06Andy Greenwald?

  No, but I mean, like, even the winners of this challenge didn't.

• 1:27:09Speaker 05

  They were fine.

• 1:27:10Andy Greenwald?

  They were fine.

• 1:27:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, there was no raves. I like angry Tom too, which is, I think, important.

• 1:27:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:16Speaker 05

  Like, because it makes, uh, rewarding Tom feel like it's earned.

• 1:27:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:27:20Speaker 05

  Like, when he's like, this is awesome.

• 1:27:21Andy Greenwald?

  More Paul Hollywood.

• 1:27:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:27:23Chris Ryan?

  Nana's in Last Chance Kitchen?

• 1:27:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, they're starting it now.

• 1:27:27Andy Greenwald?

  They're starting it this week. Alright, so what else are we watching? Nina, what else? You can get your takes off.

• 1:27:32Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, so I mentioned I've been podcasting about paradise. We're flipping to The Boys. Do you guys do The Boys?

• 1:27:40Chris Ryan?

  Andy does.

• 1:27:40Speaker 05

  I love, I love The Boys.

• 1:27:41Andy Greenwald?

  The Boy.

• 1:27:42Chris Ryan?

  I liked, I enjoyed my time with The Boys, but it's not something I kept up with.

• 1:27:47Speaker 05

  By the way, my co-host David Dennis Jr., our podcast is called Viewer Discretion. If you guys like The Boys, go check it out. Mostly known for Love is Blind coverage.

• 1:27:57Chris Ryan?

  That brings a different, yeah.

• 1:27:58Speaker 05

  He said, uh, he was, a thought that's been in my head this whole time is he said when Sterling Brown finally gets to Alex, the only thing he's gonna do is tell him to delete the shower scene so Terry never finds out.

• 1:28:11Andy Greenwald?

  That's a more interesting show. Good for him.

• 1:28:13Speaker 05

  That's the plot of season three, go check it out. But I'm watching The Pit, as I mentioned. We're about two-thirds through Jury Duty, Company Cheat, which I feel like Jury Duty, you watch it and you're like, wow, the amazing thing is that they pulled off the ruse again. To me, the most amazing thing is that they're finding the most wholesome men in America. Like, where do, where are they finding these guys?

• 1:28:37Chris Ryan?

  I don't know, these, like, the two guys who were just like, seems cool, okay.

• 1:28:41Speaker 05

  And it is literally the secret sauce of the show, right? Is that they find these guys. I shot something with Ronald Gladden. It was like a pilot for a game show. Truly, the nicest man, sorry, the nicest man I've ever met in my life.

• 1:28:56Andy Greenwald?

  These people who cast Jury Duty should cast reality shows, right? Like, to give good candidates a chance.

• 1:29:02Chris Ryan?

  Nobody wants to watch reality shows with a bunch of good guys.

• 1:29:04Speaker 05

  You need one good guy.

• 1:29:05Andy Greenwald?

  President Cal's America, we do. There's less conflict.

• 1:29:09Chris Ryan?

  Nobody wants to watch Love is Blind with a bunch of guys who are like, I'm nice.

• 1:29:11Andy Greenwald?

  What a show called Love is Good.

• 1:29:14Andy Greenwald?

  That's a million-dollar idea. Okay, sorry, a hundred-million-dollar idea.

• 1:29:18Speaker 05

  Are Jury Duty and Top Chef the only shows on television that make you feel good about humanity?

• 1:29:24Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I watched Neighbors, and so, yes, I think the answer is yes.

• 1:29:28Chris Ryan?

  Good about humanity. The Pit makes me actually feel good about that.

• 1:29:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, I meant reality shows.

• 1:29:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, for as beleaguered as the staffing, the staff of the hospital is, it's like, we're not so different. We're all just blood and bones, you know?

• 1:29:42Andy Greenwald?

  Is that, is that actually a Perla monologue that you delivered to camera this week? It reminds us that they're good.

• 1:29:48Speaker 05

  I always watch a show separately from my husband while I'm running and I'm almost done with Vladimir, which is the Netflix show.

• 1:29:55Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't check it out.

• 1:29:56Speaker 05

  Uh, which, you know, we talk about paradise being unrealistic, asks you to believe that Rachel Weisz isn't the most beautiful woman on earth, which makes it a little bit, uh,

• 1:30:04Andy Greenwald?

  I'm out.

• 1:30:04Speaker 05

  hard to watch, but no, it's, it's, I'm enjoying that.

• 1:30:06Chris Ryan?

  Can you do horror at all?

• 1:30:08Speaker 05

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:30:09Chris Ryan?

  I really like,

• 1:30:10Speaker 05

  TV horror I could do.

• 1:30:10Chris Ryan?

  Something very bad is going to happen.

• 1:30:12Andy Greenwald?

  Because we are also doing time travel in this podcast and we haven't recorded the part that people listening have already heard, I'm debuting this for you, even though I'm going to say it earlier to Chris, which is definitely watch the first 15 minutes of very bad, what is it called?

• 1:30:26Chris Ryan?

  Something very bad is gonna happen.

• 1:30:27Andy Greenwald?

  The first 15 minutes is really good.

• 1:30:31Andy Greenwald?

  Then you should stop.

• 1:30:32Speaker 05

  Does it get gross after that?

• 1:30:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, then it gets like, then it becomes a horror thing.

• 1:30:35Speaker 05

  I already read the Wikipedia for it, so I know what's gonna happen.

• 1:30:37Chris Ryan?

  I haven't finished yet.

• 1:30:38Speaker 05

  I do, that's my body.

• 1:30:39Chris Ryan?

  Oh, you do do that.

• 1:30:39Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, for like gross, gross at horror.

• 1:30:41Andy Greenwald?

  Speaking of reality, this is now officially, can this be the watch after dark part for this episode?

• 1:30:46Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:30:48Speaker 05

  Nice. Whoa.

• 1:30:50Chris Ryan?

  Can we get some green and white light? Cause I know that that's what you're gonna ask about.

• 1:30:53Speaker 05

  Oh, or you want an Eagles talk?

• 1:30:54Andy Greenwald?

  I just want, I didn't want to give you enough time to prepare. I wanted to get like the honest thing. I wanted to know your thoughts.

• 1:30:59Chris Ryan?

  She's always prepared for this.

• 1:31:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was gonna say.

• 1:31:01Chris Ryan?

  I know you're so prepared.

• 1:31:01Speaker 05

  It literally is my job.

• 1:31:02Chris Ryan?

  She has no computer and she knows every character on paradise.

• 1:31:06Andy Greenwald?

  I know, I just want, everyone's like, Sean Mannion, everybody really likes him.

• 1:31:12Chris Ryan?

  That's the offensive coordinator for the Eagles.

• 1:31:14Andy Greenwald?

  Everyone who stays listening to this part knows.

• 1:31:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:17Speaker 05

  Uh, you want me to talk about Mannion?

• 1:31:19Andy Greenwald?

  Oh my God, this is a moment.

• 1:31:21Speaker 05

  Alex has been sent back in time to give me, force me to give a different answer to you.

• 1:31:24Andy Greenwald?

  To erase the hitch roots from our playbook.

• 1:31:28Speaker 05

  You want to ask about Mannion, about Jalen Hurts, about whether you're gonna trade A.J. Brown? What are we, what are we, what are we doing with the draft pick this year?

• 1:31:33Andy Greenwald?

  The A.J. thing seems baked in. It's a bummer. I was very much, I was, I was staking at my opinion, oh, cause, okay, cause my take officially, and by officially, I mean I texted Shil Kabbadia this, is I didn't think he was getting traded. But now it just seems too baked in. I'm starting to-

• 1:31:49Speaker 05

  Well, the comp required for them to actually do it is a little bit prohibitive for, I mean, it's gotta be a first or bust, especially after D.J. Moore got traded for a second. So the issue is, as you I'm sure know, the only way they can do it is as a post-June 1 trade. So and this is a team that's in after the drafts, is a team that is competitive this year. So I think it has to be a really good pick.

• 1:32:10Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think this is a standoff between Howie Roseman and the Patriots? Or do you think something is already handshakey, we're gonna get this done after June 1?

• 1:32:19Speaker 05

  Oh, I genuinely don't know. He, I mean, Howie usually comes out on top in these deals. So like, I think-

• 1:32:26Andy Greenwald?

  Keep saying stuff like that. That makes me feel good. I only want to be affirmed.

• 1:32:29Chris Ryan?

  It's almost impossible to talk to him about this stuff for me because he operates from a position of like, Howie has never made a mistake and Howie has like the most intuitive, perceptive-

• 1:32:40Andy Greenwald?

  Jalen Rager exists.

• 1:32:42Chris Ryan?

  It's been a while since you've invoked that name. Like, you are like, this guy is- Cause he picks a bunch of dudes from the first round from Georgia.

• 1:32:49Speaker 05

  Well, Howie's also been, over the last few years, been trading for guys as opposed to primarily trading away guys.

• 1:32:54Andy Greenwald?

  And when he's traded away guys, though, it's gone well.

• 1:32:55Speaker 05

  The one that I'm watching is Tanner McKee.

• 1:32:58Chris Ryan?

  Yes. My take on this is that I think we are not so secretly in a soft rebuild right now.

• 1:33:04Speaker 05

  Ooh.

• 1:33:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And I have only modest expectations for this team next season. I think it's last Fangio year.

• 1:33:12Speaker 05

  See, a soft rebuild, another way of thinking about that, I talk about this all the time, is when a team, much like Paradise, has two timelines at the same time. So you've got the win-now timeline, and then you have the like future timeline, and you start to slowly merge them.

• 1:33:26Andy Greenwald?

  And that worked in Golden State. So-

• 1:33:28Chris Ryan?

  I feel like that's, I think if I were to imagine what Howie Roseman's doing, I think he's thinking about like two years from now rather than right now. Like, what his-

• 1:33:36Andy Greenwald?

  I think he is Alex. I think he's always thinking about that.

• 1:33:38Speaker 05

  Is A.J. Brown Lincoln, this analogy? Cause you're keeping him, but you're trading him, but you want to keep him on the team?

• 1:33:43Andy Greenwald?

  Good. You don't?

• 1:33:43Speaker 05

  The roster's really good.

• 1:33:44Andy Greenwald?

  The roster's still really good.

• 1:33:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, we just did the, my main show, the MediaCom show, we did the Team Needs podcast, and when I went to Philadelphia, I was like, wide receiver 3?

• 1:33:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:33:54Speaker 05

  You really don't have a lot of needs on that. The edge is the need, but-

• 1:33:57Chris Ryan?

  We'll see. And no Stalin, no, you know, like-

• 1:34:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. What is your official take on-

• 1:34:03Speaker 05

  The retirement of Justin?

• 1:34:04Andy Greenwald?

  The Stalin retirement, but also the Manny, and like, can they really- Do this. Can you do the surgery on a patient while the patient is trying to compete for the Super Bowl?

• 1:34:12Chris Ryan?

  Can Jalen run a sophisticated McVay offense?

• 1:34:15Andy Greenwald?

  I'm not worried about Jalen. I'm worried about doing it under Siri.

• 1:34:17Speaker 05

  He's like a big, protect Jalen at all costs. Yeah.

• 1:34:21Andy Greenwald?

  I'm like Lane Johnson. That's my job.

• 1:34:22Speaker 05

  My classic WIP caller over here.

• 1:34:24Andy Greenwald?

  He's in Columbia getting his blood changed. Thank you. That's what I would do.

• 1:34:30Speaker 05

  I think that Jalen Hurts is a quarterback who can succeed with a good run game. Russell Wilson was like this a lot. They're very similar because he doesn't like to throw over the middle of the field. Y'all know this. So he really needs those single high coverages that you get by running the ball well. So the question to me is whether, not whether or not Hurts can change, but whether the run game can be improved. And I've heard a lot of good, people in Green Bay really liked Sean Mannion. Really rave about him.

• 1:34:55Chris Ryan?

  See, Chris? There's no doubt about Sean Mannion. I've just seen a couple of OCs now and we wind up running the same stuff.

• 1:35:01Andy Greenwald?

  Here's the thing that's, that's, that's interesting that I find interesting about our dynamic is that during the offseason, I am so positive and he is very like, well, you know, these things you never, and then when we get into the actual season, I am miserable and incredibly negative the entire time.

• 1:35:21Speaker 05

  Oh, wait. No sports fans are like that. That's, you're so unique.

• 1:35:25Andy Greenwald?

  With him. I don't mean me. Oh, no. I'm, I'm a terrible cliche. I'm, I'm not, I'm not special. I'm saying that we swing because you are more optimistic during the season and more pessimistic during the offseason.

• 1:35:35Chris Ryan?

  I just like watching football. So I don't want to spend my entire time being like, this sucks. And it's like, we could be way worse. You know what I mean? Like in some ways, sometimes I'm like, I would prefer like an 11 and 6, 10, 7 season rather than like the Eagles have won nine of 10.

• 1:35:51Speaker 05

  Yeah. But you never want, the perfect place to be as a fan is when you're slightly exceeding expectations. You never want to be the favorite. You never want to be the worst. That's not fun. You want to be in that exact sweet spot.

• 1:36:03Andy Greenwald?

  By the way, congratulations on winning the Super Bowl.

• 1:36:04Speaker 05

  Oh, thank you so much.

• 1:36:05Andy Greenwald?

  I don't even think we discussed that.

• 1:36:07Speaker 05

  Congratulations on Sierra month. It's actually bittersweet for me because I did the rewatchables. With Bill.

• 1:36:12Chris Ryan?

  Before CR Month.

• 1:36:13Speaker 05

  And before CR Month. That's when I learned about CR Month.

• 1:36:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:15Speaker 05

  And then now, I'm coming at the end of it.

• 1:36:18Chris Ryan?

  Technically, you are like a very, you are my last guest of CR Month.

• 1:36:20Andy Greenwald?

  This is CR Month, though.

• 1:36:21Speaker 05

  Or still in it?

• 1:36:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it's still March.

• 1:36:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, my house, we're like one of those people who leave up the Christmas tree at all times. CR Month is all year long, so it's really...

• 1:36:31Andy Greenwald?

  What you do is you just take one cigarette and put it on your mantle.

• 1:36:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Bill has talked about it being a yearly thing like San Gennaro Festival, so...

• 1:36:38Andy Greenwald?

  That's a perfect topic.

• 1:36:40Speaker 05

  I was thinking like Shark Week.

• 1:36:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:41Speaker 05

  What are we talking about?

• 1:36:42Andy Greenwald?

  San Gennaro? It gets a little crowded.

• 1:36:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:44Andy Greenwald?

  You pay too much for Zeppeli. What are we talking about?

• 1:36:47Speaker 05

  There's like a ride that we're all like a little afraid to put our kids on.

• 1:36:49Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 1:36:50Andy Greenwald?

  They're selling sausages and also tube socks?

• 1:36:52Speaker 05

  What was the highlight? Now that, yeah, but let's do a little retrospective.

• 1:36:55Andy Greenwald?

  It's incredible how like now we've, it's been 30 days, but at the end of it, this happened on the Rewatchables, too. There's been a lot of like, how do you feel now that we've reached the end?

• 1:37:02Speaker 05

  I feel like I'm the avatar of the CR heads in the Ringer Universe, you know?

• 1:37:06Andy Greenwald?

  You are.

• 1:37:06Speaker 05

  Shout out to the Reddit. I see y'all.

• 1:37:09Chris Ryan?

  You were pretty vocal about your appreciation of that group of guys. Or whoever.

• 1:37:13Speaker 05

  It's the only subreddit I enjoy.

• 1:37:15Andy Greenwald?

  It is, I think, one of the few

• 1:37:17Speaker 05

  Other than Paradise.

• 1:37:18Andy Greenwald?

  healthy places on the internet, uh, full stop.

• 1:37:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:37:21Andy Greenwald?

  Usually, except in regards to me.

• 1:37:22Speaker 05

  It's way better than Mina Kimes' stuff. Which I don't look at.

• 1:37:27Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I've really enjoyed myself. I'm ready to go back to my, you know, kind of like my, my side character position. You know? Just setting you up for success.

• 1:37:36Andy Greenwald?

  You don't think this main character energy is gonna carry?

• 1:37:39Chris Ryan?

  No, I just, I, all I, all it really was is I got to do a bunch of movies on Rewatchables that I thought were really like, special.

• 1:37:45Andy Greenwald?

  It's really caused some people to spin out. I saw that clip of, of Yasi trying to say that, that maybe she was your best friend. And then Sean being like, I'm not sure if you're his best friend, ma'am. And then on Rewatchables, dropping today, an hour, like, the beginning of the fourth hour mark, third hour mark?

• 1:37:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:59Andy Greenwald?

  Bill turned to Chris and said, "These two guys are hanging from a cliff. Which one do you save?"

• 1:38:06Speaker 05

  Classic the good son scenario.

• 1:38:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it was it was rough. Who'd I pick?

• 1:38:10Andy Greenwald?

  I know you you stayed silent and you laughed and Sean pointed to me and I said, you should save Sean. He's younger and has more to do.

• 1:38:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:38:22Chris Ryan?

  On that note, we can wrap it up, Mina. Thank you so much for coming in.

• 1:38:25Andy Greenwald?

  Alex will save me anyway, right?

• 1:38:26Chris Ryan?

  Thank you for joining us about paradise and hopefully you'll have we'll bring you back on when the next time we have a time travel show again.

• 1:38:32Andy Greenwald?

  We love having you on. Thank you for coming.

• 1:38:34Chris Ryan?

  You're already you're already recording it.

• 1:38:35Speaker 05

  Apocalypse.

• 1:38:36Chris Ryan?

  Thanks so much.

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  When everyone's finally together, what makes mornings even brighter? Keeping things deliciously simple. Whether you're pouring up a glass of morning refreshment or topping off festive drinks for a family brunch, Simply Orange brings that 100% fresh squeezed taste to every moment. Deliciously bright and delightfully easy, Simply Orange is made for all your seasonal gatherings. Simply Orange. Say yes to simple.

• 1:39:16Speaker 06

  It's getting chilly outside, but you know what that means?

• 1:39:22Speaker 06

  It's time to cozy up with Panera Bread. Let's get toasty, cheesy. Oh, hello, broccoli cheddar soup in a red bowl. How about melty? Okay, Chipotle Chicken Avo Melt. It's dipping bread and soupy goodness season. Oh, yeah, we are so back. It's Panera season. Order now.