Redemption | BONUS | Season 2

In this bonus episode, Nancy Glass joins the Burden of Guilt team for a candid conversation about Bobby Gumpright, Jermaine Hudson, and the complicated reality of forgiveness. It’s a behind-the-scenes look at how this story changed the people telling it, too. You can reach out to the Burden of Guilt team at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. For more Burden of Guilt, follow us on Instagram @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

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• 1:04Speaker 03

  Hey folks, it's Matt Altmaix.

• 1:05Speaker 04

  And Joel Larsgaard.

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• 1:44Speaker 05

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• 2:34Speaker 05

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• 2:42Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Carrie Hartman, producer of season two of Burden of Guilt. Today, associate producer Jade Abdul Malik and I are very excited to talk with Nancy Glass. As you know, she's the host and executive producer of our series. But this show was a team effort. Jade, Nancy, and I have been producing this show together for almost a year. For us, this story raised a lot of questions about forgiveness in our own lives. So we got together as a team to talk about it. So Nancy, you had real apprehension. I mean, we were in the office and you were concerned about meeting Bobby Gumpright and him walking into our studios. Knowing the story, having read all about the story

• 3:26Speaker 07

  and what happened in court, what he did to Jermaine, and you've literally interviewed, I would say, some of the most heinous criminals in recent memory. I can think of one in particular. Jeffrey Dahmer. Jeffrey Dahmer. Bobby, for sure, did something that many would deem unforgivable, but he didn't kill anybody. What about him coming in to the studio made you feel uncomfortable?

• 3:55Nancy Glass?

  Well, you know, it's kind of a mixed bag. I mean, we're all attracted to a really good story. But we feel responsibility to these people who give us their story. And, you know, when you read what happened to Jermaine, your heart is so broken. That I was afraid to meet Bobby. I thought, oh, what's this guy gonna be like? Jermaine had lost so much of his life. It makes you really angry, except that he wasn't angry. So you also have to respect his point of view. And as you pointed out, I've interviewed a lot of people who have done bad things, a lot.

• 4:36Nancy Glass?

  And when they say they are remorseful, you don't believe it for a second. They've got excuses and you know, there's something wrong with their psychopathology. So Bobby made me nervous because I thought, this is a bad guy who did a bad thing. And then, when I met him, I realized, he did a bad thing, but he's not a bad guy. He's an ordinary guy who made a terrible decision, influenced by drugs, which is not an excuse, and he certainly doesn't make excuses.

• 5:17Nancy Glass?

  It was pretty obvious from the beginning that he was really remorseful.

• 5:22Speaker 07

  Were there any questions that you asked him that he just refused to answer?

• 5:28Nancy Glass?

  No, he was completely open. Not only did he answer everything, one technique a lot of people use is, they completely go in another direction. So you kind of forget the question and you follow that other direction. He didn't. He stayed in the moment, no matter how painful it was. He teared up a few times. It, you know, it was tough for him. And yet, he wanted to tell the story.

• 5:55Speaker 07

  Jade, I was also curious about your response. You came in a little bit later, when we had already established a connection there. And I know that you have deep interest in the prison system. And it's something that you want to spend part of your career working on investigating. You were always friendly and professional with Bobby. What was going on in your head, though?

• 6:20Nancy Glass?

  Were you nervous, like I was, to meet him? Were you nervous about how you felt about him?

• 6:25Speaker 09

  I wasn't nervous. I was prepared to be angry. I was prepared to not be able to handle myself professionally. I was prepared to be pissed off. I was prepared to have these really disrespectful thoughts. But I was... The anxiety I was feeling was more so about how can I contain my negative emotions in this professional setting, rather than I'm about to meet someone or converse with someone that did a really terrible thing and that I assume is just a terrible person through and through.

• 6:55Speaker 07

  And what do you think of him now?

• 6:57Speaker 09

  I really do admire Bobby because he owns every part of his mistake.

• 7:03Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 7:03Speaker 09

  He owns every part of his wrongdoings. All the transgressions that he's imposed on other people's lives. Not just Jermaine's, not just his family, but also himself.

• 7:15Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 7:15Speaker 09

  And I think that goes a long way. I don't think the Bobby that he is today would recognize the person that he was 20-something years ago and vice versa. And I think there's been an incredible transformation with so much evidence that it's hard to dislike him. And it also helps that Jermaine sees the goodness in him too and chose to forgive him.

• 7:38Nancy Glass?

  And wants the best for Bobby.

• 7:39Speaker 09

  Exactly.

• 7:40Nancy Glass?

  Like, he didn't have to call Bobby and say, "Listen, you gotta get it together. You gotta do this right." And he did. I mean, Jermaine is... He's a spectacular person. He really is. And he has brought out the best in Bobby. And when I say the best, it's qualities I don't think Bobby knew he had. And he does. What about you, Carrie? Were you nervous? What did you think? Because you're the one who talked me into doing the story.

• 8:09Speaker 07

  I wasn't nervous because I had spent, literally, hours on pre-interviews with him. And I had the same experience that you did, Nancy, which is he didn't deflect any questions. He never made an excuse. And he would only participate in a podcast if Jermaine would participate as well. Like those were the only, the only ground rules he had was it's up to Jermaine. I will not do anything without his blessing. It's all about Jermaine. So I felt pretty confident that the person he was on the phone, he would be in person as well.

• 8:50Nancy Glass?

  What did you leave out of the podcast that you would still like to share with people?

• 8:55Speaker 07

  There was one thing where Jermaine's daughter Jeremia describes Bobby coming to their home for the first time. And Kristen is very welcoming and you heard this in the last episode where Kristen's like, it's over. She hugs him. She welcomes him into their house. And Jeremia said, he was crying. And I'm like, what is he crying about? What is he crying about? I should be the one crying. You said something funny when we talked last time. You said that Bobby was crying and you were like, what are you crying?

• 9:28Speaker 00

  Right, like I did, I did. I said, what are you crying for? Like, why are you crying? Like, all of us should be the one crying. You, you, you crying your eyes out. Why? You know, like, why are you crying so hard? And it wasn't to be, it might have came off as me being mean or harsh or something. But that was my intention. I just was looking at him like, what you crying for? Like, you know, like, what you crying for? Like, you know, the damage is done.

• 9:52Speaker 07

  Of course she was polite and she followed her dad's lead. But not everybody in Jermaine's circle is healed. And that's not something we really address. But when she's like, what are you crying about? I, that did make me chuckle that she's making wisecracks about it and still dealing with it.

• 10:13Speaker 09

  Yeah, I would agree. I was thinking of like when Bobby was invited to the home for the first time. When Bobby parked outside of the door on the driveway, he had a moment to himself, he prayed to himself, and he saw Jermaine approach the car and they walked in together. And so I think that's just a testament to how unified these men are in going through this journey together, knowing how nuanced forgiveness really is. And it doesn't always look the same. Sometimes forgiveness, people will be like, I forgive you, don't talk to me again. Or I forgive you, but there are very strong boundaries that I put in place

• 10:57Speaker 09

  to protect my heart. And sometimes forgiveness is also, let me welcome you into my home because you're not just a friend to me, you're family now. I want you to be a part of every milestone from this day forward. That's, I don't know, I could do that with someone that's taken 22 years of my life.

• 11:16Nancy Glass?

  You know, the thing about forgiveness is, like I said to somebody very close to me, you need to forgive someone who did you wrong, not for him, but for you. And the reply I got was, I don't. I'm not going to, and I don't. And you know the part that's for me? I won't. I'm not forgiving. And I was like, I talked to a therapist about it. I'm not saying that I'm in therapy, but I am. And she said, yeah, she said, you know what? He's right. Doesn't have to forgive.

• 11:55Speaker 09

  So it just shows that it's like so noble to make and a hard choice to make, too.

• 12:03Speaker 07

  Okay. The last thing I wanted to bring up was staying on the forgiveness track for a second.

• 12:09Nancy Glass?

  Yeah.

• 12:09Speaker 07

  Has it challenged anything in your own life? So when Jermaine was speaking, a lot of times I was thinking about experiences with people who I have walked away from for various reasons. Sometimes the reasons were pretty valid. Sometimes they were more petty. And if this man can forgive somebody who took all those years away from him, why do I hold on to these grudges that I hold on to? And I wondered if any of that came up for you?

• 12:42Nancy Glass?

  Well, I don't hold grudges because it's like what I used to say to my kids about jealousy. It's a wasted emotion. That other person doesn't know. They have no idea what's going on in your head. And I don't want to pay rent for the space that person is taking up in my head. Jade?

• 12:59Speaker 09

  Yeah, there have been several instances where those feelings were coming up for me, where I would feel bitter about friendships that went astray for whatever reason, miscommunication. And selfishly, I would always feel like, okay, I need to get the final word on this because I need you to know how you've wronged me, how I'm in the right and you're in the wrong. In some ways, working with Jermaine and Bobby has made me realize like that part doesn't matter. And it's really important for us to hear stories like these so that we have a

• 13:37Speaker 09

  wealth of information of like what's possible for humanity. And how can we be better people in our daily lives and how we show up in the world at large?

• 13:49Speaker 07

  Jermaine is somebody I feel like I'm gonna know forever. And

• 13:53Nancy Glass?

  Yes, and Bobby.

• 13:55Speaker 07

  You know, and Bobby, like they kind of feel like part of our Glass Podcast family now.

• 14:01Nancy Glass?

  Yeah.

• 14:01Speaker 07

  Thanks so much, you guys. It was really great to talk about these things that we talk about offline.

• 14:08Nancy Glass?

  I know, really, what's the difference?

• 14:10Speaker 07

  There's no difference, but it was really fun to share a little bit with the audience. So thanks.

• 14:16Nancy Glass?

  Definitely. Thank you.

• 14:19Speaker 03

  Hey folks, it's Matt Altmaix.

• 14:21Speaker 04

  And Joel Larsgaard from the How To Money Podcast.

• 14:23Speaker 03

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• 15:51Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.