Olympic Legend Dara Torres: Age-Defying Fitness, Eating Disorders & Protecting The Next Generation of Gold Medal Talent

Dara Torres is a 5-time Olympian, 12-time Olympic medalist, and the oldest swimmer to ever win an Olympic medal at age 41. We explore how she broke American records two years after giving birth, trained only five days a week while beating teenagers, and missed her sixth Olympics by nine-hundredths of a second. We discuss her revolutionary recovery-focused training, battles with bulimia, and why she still can't turn off the competitive switch at 58. Most surprising? The swimming world's indifference to her game-changing methods. Dara redefined athletic longevity. This conversation unpacks how. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉https://www.on.com/richroll Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF 👉https://www.gobrewing.com AG1: Get a FREE bottle of D3K2, Welcome Kit, and 5 travel packs with your first order 👉https://www.drinkAG1.com/richroll BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉 https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll Roka: Unlock 20% OFF your order with code RICHROLL 👉https://www. ROKA.com/RICHROLL Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉https://www.rivian.com Check out all the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us@voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:06Speaker 01

  I'm so competitive, and once I'm in, like, I'm all in, and I'm gonna do whatever I can to be the best I can be. And the biggest thing that I learned just from my age and being in the sport for so long is listen to your body. I think you always wish you can do what you wanted to do when you were younger, and, you know, when your body needs a break, you need to take breaks. I'm a big believer in learning from people. I think researching and learning what's gonna work best for you is really important.

• 1:40Rich Roll?

  The theme of age-defying athletic feats has been a pretty steady and recurring one here on this podcast, and pretty much from the beginning and across the pages of Finding Ultra. And it's sort of part and parcel of what I talk about when I talk about what it means to transcend the limitations we impose and imagine when it comes to what we are capable of doing with both our bodies and our minds. And insofar as this idea goes... There is nobody more emblematic of it than today's guest because Dara Torres is the complete, absolute embodiment and pinnacle of age-defying athletic excellence,

• 2:23Rich Roll?

  exceeding all labels, every expectation to essentially astonish the world by winning Olympic medals at an age that others presume to be just well past her expiration date. As many of you know, I was a competitive swimmer myself, and because Dara and I are basically the same age, she's somebody, this athlete, that I first came across as a young teenager, and basically this person that I can't even remember not knowing about. But for those who are not in the know, Dara is one of the most accomplished and decorated female athletes in Olympic history, a sprint freestyle and relay specialist with 12 Olympic medals and three world records to her name.

• 3:05Rich Roll?

  She's also the first swimmer to represent the U.S. in astonishing five Olympiads, her first being in Los Angeles in 1984, when she was just 17. Then there was Seoul in 88, Barcelona in 92, Sydney in 2000, where she won five medals, and finally, all the way to Beijing in 2008, while, it's worth noting, missing out on a sixth Olympic Games in London in 2012 by only 4 1/000ths of a second. Along the way, Dara has had many high highs, but also plenty of low lows, as well as a couple retirements and comebacks, each of which were more remarkable than the one before for doing things people thought impossible, given the advancement of her age.

• 3:50Rich Roll?

  So, to put things in context, at the time, throughout Dara's career, it just wasn't a thing that a swimmer could be competitive on the world stage beyond a certain age, and that age was somewhere in the mid-20s at best. And yet, during her first comeback in Sydney, when she was 33, Dara became the oldest member of the USA team, she became the oldest woman to medal in swimming, and won more medals than any athlete on the team that year. Then, after birthing a child in 2006, she returned for her second comeback to break the 50 freestyle American record in 2007, and in 2008, at 41 years of age, broke

• 4:34Rich Roll?

  it again in Beijing, where she took home three silvers and the distinction of having swam the fastest 100 freestyle split in the world ever when she anchored the 4x100 medley relay. And then again, I should say, at the Olympic trials in 2012, at age 45, almost made, as I said earlier, her sixth Olympic team narrowly missing it by only four one hundredths of a second. So this is a person who has done it all, even in retirement, where she found a different kind of success as a sports broadcaster, as a fitness influencer, before that was even a thing. She sold something like 10 million Taibo DVDs with Billy Blanks back in the day, all the way to today, where she is in

• 5:18Rich Roll?

  her second year as the head swimming coach, her first coaching post at Boston College. Dara is one of the most fiercely competitive people on the planet, probably the fittest 58-year-old on Earth, and still getting after it. So how did she do what she did? How does she continue to do what she does, which is to defy gender and age expectations, to essentially excel in life in so many different ways? So that's what today is about. It's a conversation about self-belief and self-sacrifice, determination and dedication, resilience and motivation, perseverance and parenting, including parenting herself,

• 5:58Rich Roll?

  her daughter, and now the next generation of aquatic talent. So buckle up, people, because Dara is a true force of nature.

• 6:10Rich Roll?

  Dara, so nice to meet you and have you here. I think you, did you just arrive from Singapore?

• 6:15Speaker 01

  I did. I was out there for World Aquatics, so was pretty busy out there and got in last night, and my first stop is you.

• 6:23Rich Roll?

  How did the US team do? Like, I admit, I didn't really follow the meet.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  You know, they're doing okay. I think that when they had their, from what I understand, they had their training camp in Thailand, and a lot of them got sick. So like some kind of bug or whatever. So some had to scratch some events like Gretchen Walsh. She scratched a hundred freestyle even though she won the Hunter Fly and there's a lot of something going on. So I don't know the exact amount of swimmers who got affected by it, but I think a good majority of the team did.

• 6:54Rich Roll?

  Well, I think it's a really interesting time for USA Swimming. Like we can no longer just expect to dominate at every meet. I think Paris, you know, was kind of a referendum on that and perhaps like my sense of the team in Paris was that it's sort of in transition. Like there were a lot of very, you know, accomplished swimmers with storied careers at the very end of their career trying to hang on. And then this new crop of young talent that is sort of just beginning their Olympic journey. And so there wasn't anyone really who was right in the pocket of that sweet spot where, you know, we, we tend to like always have, you know, these standout performances from, from our country.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it's tough also because the year after Olympic Games is always a rough year. You know, you're really gearing towards the Olympic Games and considering that, you know, it was just a year ago that they had them. To be able to come back and swim at Worlds, we probably don't have our deepest talents. I mean, we have a lot of great swimmers there, but you know, some people are taking off and taking a break and some people don't train as hard, you know, this past year. So it's not a, a great sort of environment to see where our really, our best swimmers are. And you look at Australia too, like they don't have their, a lot of their top swimmers aren't there either. So.

• 8:11Rich Roll?

  Well, I was trying to think if we'd actually ever met and I don't think we ever had. But you know, we're about the same age, almost exactly the same age and you know, have been in sport for a long time. And you know, you were on this, this like incredible trajectory. My trajectory was, you know, like less interesting. But you're somebody who I have, you know, despite not having met you, like have of course known of like since I was, you know, probably 14 or 15 years old. So it's really fun to have a legend sitting across from me. And your story is super fascinating. And I think, you know, people who follow. Swimming or know who you are are familiar with like the two comebacks and you know kind of doing something that no one had ever done before by winning these you know medals at the

• 8:55Rich Roll?

  in your fifth Olympics at age 41, which is just, you know, an incredible story. But I think what gets lost in the in the sort of narrative here is that for somebody who who isn't like really familiar with what swimming was like during our time, like when we were in high school.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:13Rich Roll?

  Like there was no money in swimming. And there was this idea that like basically like nobody was extending their career past 21. And I and part of that was because there was no money. So no one was even trying to. But that idea was that like, well, that's your peak, you know, maybe there's a few people who could extend it to 24 or so. But like, nobody was going into their 30s, let alone like, oh, my God, the fourth decade, like, that was just absolutely unheard of, even though we kind of see that stuff now happening all, you know, kind of all over the place. And I think you broke a barrier there. And especially with women athletes, like, I think we both know of many, many young female swimmers who, you know, would make this huge splash at between 14 and 16 and go to the Olympics, but then could never kind of repeat those performances.

• 9:58Rich Roll?

  So I feel like it was even more outrageous that that a woman athlete could could like do this thing, you know, and I think people who don't know swimming like kind of don't don't get that aspect of it.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Well, um, you know, I think you did nail nail the nail on the head when you said that, you know, you didn't, you peaked at, you know, an early age or that there wasn't money in the sport. And I think that was the biggest thing is there wasn't money in the sport. So when you got done with college, that was it. You move on to the next chapter in your life. And that's what I did. I mean, I graduated college and I went to New York and was doing sports modeling and some TV work and working behind the scenes at NBC Sports and being like really busy. But, you know, I think for me, I was lucky that I was able to save some money, come back and swim again. And, you know, then money started being the sport. I started paying athletes, you know,

• 10:51Speaker 01

  at the Olympic Games, if you win a gold, silver, or bronze. And you start to see that more and more. And then, you know, Michael Phelps come onto the scene and it's sort of just, you know, pushed swimming into a different level where people want it, were excited about it and wanted to sponsor athletes. And there's a lot more money in the sport than there was back in the day, you know, when we were swimming in our Early twenties or late teens and stuff. So I think that they had that myth and and you're right too, that, you know, women tend to peak, or I guess they think they peak when they're like teenagers, but you have to remember that a woman's body changes in a different way than a men's body does. And so it's a little tougher for women when you get like, you know, go from

• 11:33Speaker 01

  like, you know, a girl to, you know, a woman. It's not easy. I mean, I went through lots of ups and downs, which I know people in the swimming world probably remember, like in college, I had a really tough time. And then I got an eating disorder and, you know, it was just a, it was a rough time for me. But then my body got to the point where, I don't know, it got better and better and better. And I was able to do what I did. But, you know, I also took care of myself. I worked out all the time and, you know, not knowing I would in between my long breaks that I'd be making a comeback. But I think the fact that I stayed active really helped also.

• 12:07Rich Roll?

  Right. The the idea that you were never really out of shape, even though you were taking these, you know, multi-year breaks. But, you know, the other thing is, until you and Pablo did it, you know, both of you, you know, in 1992, nobody at the highest level of swimming had ever like taken a year off, let alone a couple of years and and come back at all. Like, I don't even know if that had ever even been tried, let alone tried successfully.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I didn't know how it was gonna be. I remember when I made a comeback after having my daughter, I went to the doctor, my orthopedic surgeon, I'm like, hey, I said, can you just like x-ray my body and make sure like everything's okay? Because I don't know, like if I can do this or not. And and he's like, what do what? And I said, I want to make a comeback. And he's like, oh, and he's like, so you want me to x-ray like your body parts? I'm like, yeah, just make sure like everything's. He's like, okay, I don't even know if he did it. He just like all of a sudden he comes back in the room.

• 12:59Rich Roll?

  I don't know what an x-ray is gonna reveal unless your bones are broken.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  I don't know. And he's like, yeah, everything's great. Just go for it. I'm like, okay, you know, and and like, I had no idea how I was gonna do and what was gonna happen. And if my body could. Could handle all the training and you know, I realized really quickly that um, you know, I had to add recovery in there. And when I look back on my career and people like, oh, you took so many years off, how'd you do that? I think my body was recovering that whole entire time, you know, because as you know, in the old days, they used to just pound the yardage all the time and you didn't really have time to recover, except when you tapered, which for your audience, that's when you start resting for a meet. Um, you know, that was really the only rest you had, and you had maybe one or two weeks off a

• 13:44Speaker 01

  year. It was a year round sport. And so I think in reality, uh, my body was allowed to rest and be able to come back after all those years of training. So I think it was a blessing in disguise.

• 13:55Rich Roll?

  Right. You spared yourself, like, you know, what so many swimmers had to endure, you know, which is just basically decades of walking around like a zombie.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 14:04Rich Roll?

  We had, yesterday I had Andy Galpin in here, who's a strength coach. I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but this guy is like, you know, just a font of incredible knowledge. Um, and he was talking about, um, when it comes to fitness, like you always have to start, uh, with efficiency first, you know, and, and, and kind of build on that.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:23Rich Roll?

  And we were, we were talking about all the facets of what goes into, you know, fitness from a holistic perspective. But I was sharing with him, like, you know, what swimming was like, you know, back in the day where it was just like, no periodization, not a single thought for recovery, like, sleep is optional, like, it's like, it's you're just sleep deprived the entire time. So of course you're not, I mean, you can get away with it when you're young, but you're not really giving yourself the opportunity to recover, which is how you actually get better. Um, and that was just the way that it was, like, volume, yardage. And on top of that, like, you, you're at Mission Viejo, which is like the birthplace of that whole kind of like training philosophy. So you,

• 15:03Rich Roll?

  you're, you grew up in Beverly Hills, you, you know, you're this standout kind of from the get go. You break your first world record at like 14 or 15, which is insane. And then you decide to go down to Orange County and train with this guy, Mark Schuber, at this program called Mission Viejo, which was just like, that was like the Mecca, you know, in the, in the early eighties, like during that period of time, it was almost like there, there was a whole mythology around like what was going on there.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's funny because you made this big thing about Michiaviejo and Mark Schubert. And obviously you know, and I know that he was known for distance swimming.

• 15:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, he was just, this guy was giving more yards than anyone.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  I know, I know. And so when he kind of like came up to me and said, hey, I hear you're moving to Fort Lauderdale to train for the Olympics, you know, why don't you just stay local? And I was like, I, you know, there's, I just need to be on a bigger team. And because I was on the team that I had, I didn't have a lot of competition to be able to, to like race and practices. And that's why I was looking for a team in Fort Lauderdale was the team I was looking at. And he convinced me to stay and said, oh no, like I have these male sprinters coming in. They're going to be great. And, you know, my training for sprinters is much different. And I'm like, hmm, you know, do I believe this?

• 16:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  And so when I went there, sure enough, like we got in after everyone, we got out before everyone. Our, our training wasn't like long distance training, like he really catered to. Yeah, he was very true to his words and catered to the sprinters. So it wasn't as bad as what someone from the outside looking in would, would think.

• 16:30Rich Roll?

  I'm imagining you at like 16, you know, just doing like, you know, like, you know, 18,000 meters a day, you know, for a 20 second race.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  I'll, I'll tell you, like at University of Florida with Randy Reese, he would have us on Fridays do a 6,000 for time. And I'm thinking, what is this? I mean, I can't even count to a 500 being a sprinter. So to do a 6,000 for time, that was a little bit brutal.

• 16:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like a 50 meter or like a 50, 100 meter dash runner, you know, like doing, you know, like 20 mile long runs.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah.

• 16:59Rich Roll?

  That's changed a lot.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:01Rich Roll?

  And I think you've played like a vital role in like reimagining what swim training could be. So you have all of this success, 1984 and 1988, but like all of your medals are in relays. You still have that elusive like sort of Olympic, you know, like individual Olympic medal. What was the thought process in making this comeback in the first place? Was it just unfinished business or just feeling like you had more to express here? Or, you know, like you were, it's not as if you were navel gazing and had nothing to do. Like you had this career as a broadcaster, you had a very flashy, like you had made this transition, did this very public facing kind of glamorous career.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny because I think a lot of the times when athletes make comebacks is because that's what they're used to and what they've done their whole lives and they miss it like that.

• 17:52Rich Roll?

  And the world is just confusing without it. Like a veteran coming back from, you know, an overseas conflict and like doesn't really know how to like function in the normal world.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Exactly, and, and I wasn't like that. I had a lot of stuff going on. And when I made my first big comeback for 2000, I had been off seven years. Like, I didn't touch the water. And for me, it was just some people at dinner the year before the London Trials saying, you know, hey, like, you ever thought I'm making a comeback? And I was like 32 at the time, like, there's no way. Like, I haven't swum in seven years. And I don't know, once the thought was in my head, I'm, I'm really the type of person that loves challenges and loves trying to do something someone else hasn't done.

• 18:31Rich Roll?

  Clearly.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  And so, so trying for a fourth Olympics after taking seven years off, I'm like, oh, that'd be cool. Let me see if I can do this. And Richard Quick at Stanford decided to take me on. And, you know, it was a very successful Olympics at 2001, five medals, finally medaled in individual events, which was great. And, you know, that was that one. And then when, like, fast forward six years and I got pregnant with my daughter, you know, I was, I was like, hey, I'm gonna go to the gym. I have to work out. And it just wasn't working out because I kept getting sick every time I went to the gym. And so I thought, well, you know, if I go to a pool, I can get sick in the gutter and I can keep swimming. It's not a big deal, you know. So I ended up going to a, to a pool and started swimming a little bit while I was pregnant and then ended up joining a masters team

• 19:17Speaker 01

  at Coral Springs. And then about a week before I was supposed to deliver, the coach was like, hey, we have a masters nationals here in like three weeks. Can you swim in it? And I'm like, I think I'm delivering in like a week. So I highly doubt my doctor's gonna let me swim three weeks after I deliver. And he's like, well, just ask. And I'm like, okay. And I don't know, one thing led to another. And I convinced my doctor. So three weeks after I had my daughter, I swam at masters nationals and, you know, did okay. And then after that, I got convinced to go to masters worlds, which was like two and a half months later. At Stanford and somehow made qualified for Olympic trials and I mean to, but I did. And then all these old people kept coming up to me and saying, hey, you should train for the Olympics

• 20:00Speaker 01

  and represent us middle aged people. And I don't know, after a lot of nagging, I'm like, all right, I'll do it, you know, not really thinking. And that's when I got the x-rays and he's like, oh yeah, you can swim. And so I decided to swim.

• 20:09Rich Roll?

  A couple of things, like, first of all, is it true that you worked out every day for all nine months of your pregnancy?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Um, I tried to. I mean, I, I literally was nauseous every day in my whole entire pregnancy. So when I did try to, you know, go to the gym, it just, I kept getting sick to my stomach. And so the swimming really helped. It, it, it helped me with my nausea and it helped me feel good about myself actually working out. So.

• 20:34Rich Roll?

  And getting up on starting blocks like three weeks after giving birth and like doing fine.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Not a pretty sight.

• 20:39Rich Roll?

  And then like two and a half months later, actually making Olympic trials, like that is insane. You know, like setting aside the age aspect of it, you know, to begin with, but I think I want to start with the first comeback, um, you know, the lead up to 2000 where you competed and you were 33 at that time. And, and that was like, that was like, oh my God, 33, like, how could you do that? Like, let, you know, let alone like, oh my God, 41 later. Um, but I just remember, because you arrived at Stanford to train with, uh, Richard Quick, who for people who don't know is just an absolute like, you know, legend in, in the sport and beloved by like anybody who had the, um, the good fortune to train underneath him. And he was new at, at the time as the women's

• 21:24Rich Roll?

  coach, uh, at Stanford, like, and so you kind of showed up right, right. Uh, like a little bit after I had left, but you know, our alumni network is, you know, there's, there's, there's like gossip and like, what's going on? And like, well, you know, Dara's training with Richard and we're hearing stories about like weird training protocols and, and you know, you're doing things like no one had ever done before. And we're like, wow, what's, you know, what is happening over there? Right? So that, it seems to me, there was like, there was some, there was some mythology around that too, because you were experimenting. There's, there's a very kind of locked in standard way of how to train, right? And, and you don't really challenge that dogma too much, but you

• 22:05Rich Roll?

  came in clearly like asking questions and had found like a, um, a partner in Richard who, who, you know, I, you know, I, I can only assume was like really game for this challenge of like approaching what you do.

• 22:20Rich Roll?

  Through a completely new and different lens.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Well, you know, he was actually like that, too, because, you know, for me, I actually love training with coaches who like to think outside the box. And so when the minute I went to him,

• 22:36Speaker 01

  you know, I remember, first of all, he changed my stroke completely. Like, it was, he's like, we don't swim like that anymore. And I'm like, wait, what? You know? And so he had completely changed my stroke. And then after like, the first week, he's like, hey, you know, I want you to go talk to this person. I'm like, who? And he's like, well, he's in Washington State, and his name is Richard Diana. And, you know, when I was coaching in 96, and I had to coach the women's relay, like, he was the women's coach, and he was going to be the women's coach in 2000. He's like, every personality on that relay was different. So if you tell them something, one person may be able to take it in, but the other three may not understand it the way the other person does. He go, he said, so, I want you to go see this, this person, and he's going to evaluate you, and let me know the best way to coach you. And I was like, okay. This guy had

• 23:21Speaker 01

  me doing like, crazy stuff, you know? And I get back, and, and the outcome was that I'm a very visual learner. So if you try to tell me something on how to do it, I don't take it in. Like, you have to physically show me how to do it, and then I have it like, right away. Or you videotape something I was doing wrong. I need to look at it, and then I can figure it out. Instead of him saying, hey, your elbow's not high enough when you do this, I'll still, I still won't do it right unless I see it. And so he, he was the one who actually would think outside the box. But then, he wanted us to go to Pilates. And I'm like, okay, I'll go to Pilates or whatever. And I'd never done it before. And I went to Pilates, and I found it was like, making me tighter, not looser. And what, the third time that I had gone, there was a guy in the corner who was like, stretching someone, like, doing these crazy, like, pretzel stretches

• 24:04Speaker 01

  and stuff. And I said to my Pilates instructor, what's that guy doing? He said, oh, it's stretching. He goes, actually, this might be better for you than Pilates. So I met this guy, and he has a partner that he worked with, and they do resistive stretching, working like, the different Chinese meridians in your body. And

• 24:23Speaker 01

  I was like, great, I'll try it. And so I also like to feel what it does for you, not just here. And so after he worked on one side of my body and it was such a difference compared to the other side of my body that he hadn't worked on, I was like, this is amazing. And so I introduced him to Richard and Richard, he worked on Richard and Richard's like, that's it. Hire like, you know, once he worked on him, he's like, I want you to work with him. So that really helped a lot with my recovery after my practices going and getting this stretching done and taking them to the swim meets with me and taking the Olympics with me. It was huge, but yeah, I really loved working with Richard because he would do things that a lot of coaches wouldn't do or weren't up to date with. Instead of just pounding the yardage, which was huge.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  And he's the one who actually taught me about recovery because there was one time when we got in the pool, started swimming, and I guess he could tell I was like exhausted. And I was always the type that would do my practices and then go run like five miles after. I always want to do more because in my head, if I'm doing more, I'm going to be faster than everyone else. And so it was like a Friday morning and, and we got him warmed up and he's like, Derek, he goes, I want you to stand up doing all out 25. I'm like, okay. So I get up and he tied me. He's like, all right, you're getting out. I'm like, what? And he's like, you're out. And I said, why? And he said, because you're exhausted. You look exhausted. He goes, I want you going home, sitting on your couch, watching movies. You're not doing anything all weekend. If I see you running, like, you know, you're going to get in trouble. Like, I don't want you lifting, doing anything. I came back Monday morning, had like the best practice of my life and I'm like, oh, okay. This is what recovery is.

• 25:51Rich Roll?

  Rather than just being exhausted for, you know, five to eight months.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Which you know what that's like.

• 25:57Rich Roll?

  On a taper. Yeah. So this guy, Andy Galpin, yesterday, he framed that as the difference between what he calls like functional overreaching, which are periods where you're purposely beating yourself up. And you know, when you get up and, and try to do a 25 for time from the blocks, that it's not going to be great. But, but if, when you get those, you know, two days of rest or, or whatever, you're going to bounce back and like kind of have this super adaptation versus like non-functional overreaching, which is you're, you're just beating yourself up and like digging this hole.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny because I'm, I'm now a year into coaching at Boston College. And one of the reasons why I didn't want to coach like a long time ago is because I didn't want to ruin someone's taper. You know, tapering and resting for each swimmer is so individualized, you know, compared to just tapering as a group. And that was like a big fear of mine is like, what if I ruin someone's taper and they swim horrible? And then it's like on me and making sure they get the right amount of rest and stuff. And making sure that, you know, when you're doing practices, that if they need a recovery day, you give them a recovery day. And, and so that was something I was very fearful of when I took this job.

• 27:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because you can only give, when you're coaching a team, you can only give so much individual attention to each person and they all have those different needs.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:12Rich Roll?

  But I like what you shared about, about Richard approaching you initially from the perspective of like, I don't know how to help this person until I first learn how they, how they learn. You know what I mean? Like, that's a very cool, um, you know, kind of glimpse into somebody who is thinking different and thinking in the right way.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, because there are a lot of people that are analytical and they, and they take things in a lot differently than someone who's visual.

• 27:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. To me, when I think about your career, that seems to be like the first instance in where you're, you're not just necessarily thinking outside the box, but you're starting to get the idea of building, building a team around yourself that extends beyond just your swim coach. And then you really kind of like push the envelope with that for the next go around.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  I did, you know, I, um, I realized that I couldn't do it by myself. I was going to be 41 years old. I started at 39, uh, training for O8 and a little less than two years. And I felt like there's no way I could do this one myself. So I had to find someone who would think outside the box with strength training that, you know, it's like what your Andy said that you, you talked to yesterday. Um, it's about, um, figuring out how to be efficient in the pool and not necessarily be the strongest in the pool, you know, uh, or efficient in the weight room, equates to being efficient in the pool rather. Um, and I had like a massage person, I had my stretching trainers, I had like everyone who could help me.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  And so my role in that was the one who was doing the training and that was standing up on the blocks and swimming. So we each had a role and I really surrounded myself with people who had no egos. So we were all in it together and it was just an awesome feeling to have this team that would work with me because there was no way I would have been able to do it by myself.

• 29:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's an interesting equation to solve. On the one hand, like you're older than everyone else, you're training in the pool with like teenagers, you know, and, and, and you, you're mature enough to know like, hey, I'm not going to be able to like, do the double workout thing and kind of do the way, do it the way this is, this kind of goes down. Over here, I've got to figure out a different way. But I also have this maturity and all of this experience and I know how my body works and I'm going to explore, you know, how to get the most of it, given like the fact that I'm older and like, what does that look like and what will that require?

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was a little bit of a process and at least I had a couple of years to sort of like figure it out. But I think what really surprised me after going through all that is that, you know, considering what I was able to do at 41, why weren't there more people asking me like, hey, what did you do? What like, you know, what were these trainers for? What, you know, and I really didn't have a lot of people ask me. Like I had a few coaches here and there, but you'd think if something works for someone, like why aren't you trying to figure out what it is that worked for them? So you can do that too. So surprising.

• 30:09Rich Roll?

  And so what were the key elements, like looking back on that, that you think were the biggest differentiators in, in how you were training that led to your success?

• 30:17Speaker 01

  I think, well, in 2000, I worked with a strength coach who was all about being the strongest because it would equate in the water. But I also felt so heavy in the water when I was swimming because I was probably 10 pounds, 12 pounds heavier than I was in 08. So finding the right strength coach that would really, like I said, was about efficiency and about, you know, using body weight and using your core in every, every exercise. Also, what was really important to him was using a lot of different muscles at once as you're doing an exercise because that's what you're doing in the pool. That's what you're doing like when you're on a track, like you're not using just one muscle. You're not just doing a bicep, you know.

• 30:54Rich Roll?

  Right. These, these functional, functional exercises.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Very functional, yes. So that was one thing.

• 30:58Rich Roll?

  Dynamic.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I, I learned that there was no way I can do double workouts. Like my body just was not going to do that. So in my head though, I was so used to old school of the more you do, the better, the heavier you lift, the better. So I, the hardest thing for me was not. Physically trying to do that, but wrapping my head around sort of mentally that, okay, I'm not doing as much as the kids and I'm only going five workouts a week instead of nine. Like, is that going to be enough for me, you know, when I go to Olympic trials and the Olympic Games? And so the mental aspect of it was probably the biggest obstacle for me to get over and know that, no, that's what your body can do. And, you know, it's okay if you're not doing what everyone else is doing.

• 31:48Rich Roll?

  It's still crazy when you think about the fact that your race is like, you know, if you're swimming the 50 free and you compare it to how like 100 meter track and field runners train.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:59Rich Roll?

  Like, it still feels like there's a lot to be learned about how to coach sprinting for swimming.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  I think it's, you know, a lot of the mid-distance and distance kids will tease the sprinters because we don't swim as long and our races are so short. But I honestly think it's swimming the 50 freestyle is probably the hardest race to swim. Not from a physical aspect because obviously 400 IM, 200 Fly, those are really hard races. But mentally, you have, your start has to be on, your race has to be on, your finish has to be on. You can't make one mistake. It's not like swimming a 200 where you can fix something really quick and be able to keep going. I mean, you have 23, 24 seconds and that's it. To be able to swim your race and you have to be on with everything that you swim. So for

• 32:45Speaker 01

  me, I'm really, as a coach, I'm really enjoying coaching the sprinters and sort of teaching them a lot of the things that I learned, not just from the physical side of it, but also the mental side of it.

• 32:57Rich Roll?

  The other thing that I think might not be fully appreciated by people who aren't like steeped in swimming is that in 2008, you go to Beijing, you're 41 years old, it's your second comeback, and you end up getting silver in the 50 freestyle, narrowly missing the gold. But you break the American record, like you go 24.0, right? And in like one year prior, you had broken the American record in the 50 free by going like 24.5 or something like that, right? So it's not just that you're making this comeback at 41, like you're breaking American records by wide margins. I mean, to go from, to go from 24.5 to 24.0 is like a massive leap.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I just think because I had another year after that first year to be able to get more training and I think that, you know, really had an effect on me. I mean, in 2000, I had a year and that was it. And I remember getting out of the pool in 2000, my last medal, and Richard saying, you know, "It's really too bad that you're retiring because you still haven't reached your peak yet." I was like, "What is he talking about? I'm 33 years old," you know? And I think I just, everything was right for me, you know? You do mention me getting the silver medal, though. I remember watching Phelps tonight before I swam the Hunter Fly, and everyone knows that race because it was all over the press, and on the cover of Sports Illustrated, like, that touch that he was losing the whole

• 34:25Speaker 01

  entire way. And I remember him touching and beating the other kid, Cavish, and, you know, thinking to myself, "Oh, my God, that poor guy that lost by a heart of a second. That's gotta be like the worst feeling in the world." And then, fast forward the next day, and I swam the 50, and I lose by a heart of a second. And I'm like, "Okay, now I know what it feels like."

• 34:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  But, you know, for me, being such a competitive person, it was mentally getting over that hump also, like, "Do I have to come back at 45? Like, I'm gonna be in menopause by then, probably. Like, how am I gonna swim at 45 and try to go for that, you know, individual gold medal that keeps eluding me?" And I think mentally, it was just, you have to give yourself a break. Like, I felt like I did everything I could up to that point. I left no stones unturned. I had the best people I was working with to make this comeback, that if silver medal was what I won that day, that was the best that I can do. And that was a mature process I had to go through to be able to come to that conclusion, you know?

• 35:22Rich Roll?

  Because the silver medal is the rough one for a lot of people, right?

• 35:26Speaker 01

  It is.

• 35:26Rich Roll?

  Like, the silver medal is the, like, "Oh, my God, I almost." And, you know, people who win bronze are actually, like, happier than you.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Well, especially losing by a hundredth of a second. I mean, you can't even blink that fast. So.

• 35:37Rich Roll?

  I know. But then you, you are 45, four years later and, and you almost do it again. I mean, you, you miss your Olympic birth by like less than a tenth of a second, like 0.09, right? Like, like that is crazy. Like that that almost happened.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  That was rough. That, that whole, you know, I, I made a comeback for that. Like I took a year off. I had major reconstructive knee surgery with cartilage transplant and then I had to rehab that for like a year. So when I came back, I didn't even really want to, but my coach, who was very sick, was dealing with a rare blood disorder, aplastic anemia. And he was like, hey, we need to finish this chapter of our book. I'm like, what book? And he's like, the book that we've been writing. I'm like, oh, we're writing a book? And he's like.

• 36:20Rich Roll?

  I wasn't aware.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I was like, I wasn't aware. And I said, I already wrote two books. And he said, uh, no, like, um, you know, we, can you imagine like coming back and, and doing this at 45? And I just, I felt so bad because he was so sick. I'm like, well, maybe he'll hang on to life if I, you know, gives him something to look forward to, to coach and stuff. And so I made this comeback and about, I don't know, maybe six months in, he ended up passing away. And I'm like, ah, I guess I'll just keep doing this. And so I did go for it, but it was so hard because, you know, we talk about recovery, but as you get older, especially for a woman, your hormones start to go. And so, um, for me, it was about when I'd go to any meet, what prelim finals meet, I'd always swim faster

• 37:05Speaker 01

  in prelims when I, at that age. Like I could not go faster because my body was still recovering from the race in the morning. So for me, like Rowdy would make comments, you know, the, you know, Rowdy.

• 37:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Um, he would make comments like, why aren't you swimming 100? You have a better chance at, you know, making a relay than you would in an individual race. But my, there's no way my body could swim 103 times for prelims, semifinals and finals. So, um, that was the hardest thing. And I was at least able at Olympic trials to go the same time in prelims, semifinals and finals, like within a couple of tenths of a second. So I was actually really happy with that.

• 37:40Rich Roll?

  It's kind of amazing. And, and you know, even in Beijing, your 100 free split on the medley relay was like the fastest of all time, you know, and yet you didn't, you didn't compete in the 100 free. Yeah, you didn't even swim that race at the Olympics.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  You know why? Because it's an eight day meet. And if I'd swum the 100 freestyle, I would have swum almost every single, I would have swum eight times in eight days.

• 38:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You're relentless. Like, you know, when people ask you like, what is the secret here? Or like, how do you, you know, make sense of how you were able to, you know, do this thing that nobody had ever done before? How do you, you know, how do you answer that? Like, how do you make sense of what, what the differentiator was for you?

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Genetics.

• 38:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I broke, you know, I broke world record at 15. Like, I've been at this for a long time.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  I think actually having a love of something like my love of swimming, I think was a great encouragement or motivator.

• 38:35Rich Roll?

  Most people fall out of love, though.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  And I did for many years.

• 38:38Rich Roll?

  Because it's so monastic and brutal. Like, you'll see Tour de France riders like continuing to ride bikes the rest of their life because they love it, even though that's an insanely hard sport. But something about swimmers, they're like, I'm done with the pool. Like, I'm, you know, like, I can't even think about that.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  I was there. I mean, I was, every time I retired, I was there. I'm like, yeah, I'm done. I can't do this. And then, you know, a couple of years go by, you're like, God, actually, I really miss it, you know? And so, and I think, like I said, my, my personality type is a challenge of something. I don't like things handed to me. And so, every time there was like, a challenge at 33, no one's done that, going to four Olympics, that's great. Oh, my gosh, having a kid and going at 41, no one's done, you know? And so, there was always a motivating factor for me. But the biggest motivator is the love of the sport.

• 39:24Rich Roll?

  So, we're talking about five Olympics, five-time Olympian.

• 39:32Rich Roll?

  You're the first swimmer to represent the USA in that many Olympic Games. 12 time Olympic medalist. Tied for women's most with Jenny Thompson. Is that still the case?

• 39:44Speaker 01

  No, Katie Ledecky broke it last year.

• 39:46Rich Roll?

  Katie, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oldest swimmer to make a US Olympic team, oldest swimmer to win an Olympic medal. And again, first US swimmer to make five Olympic teams. I mean, it's just like, it's crazy. Like now that, you know, there is a lot more kind of like time and space between that and where you're at now. Like, what is your frame on that? Has it evolved or changed? Like, how do you think about that? Because I imagine like everybody wants to be inspired by you and you do these keynotes and you get up and you try to motivate people. Like, has that message evolved in how you communicate the meaning of this to the public?

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it definitely has evolved and I think I'm more appreciative of everything. You know, I think when you're younger, I remember my first Olympics being 17 and just taking it for granted and just in awe of everyone else that was there. And there's Mary Lou Retton and Michael Jordan and Patrick Ewing and all these like Carl Lewis, these great athletes, forgetting that you're there. And then as I got older, you know, you become more appreciative, you're more mature about it. And I think my speeches have evolved over the years. I think now that I'm coaching, there's like a different aspect of it too. That I add into my speeches, but you know, I only talk about it when I have to. Like, I don't really think about what I did. Like, I'm more of a person like, okay, I'm done. What's next?

• 41:05Rich Roll?

  You're moving forward.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think about what I've done unless someone talks to me about it or brings it up. So, um, yeah, I just, I don't know. It's just not me.

• 41:15Rich Roll?

  Genetics aside though, like, you know, you have a predisposition to be good, you know, at this sport and specifically as a sprinter. But you did, you know, do a lot of things that no one had ever done before. Like, what is your, what is your, what is the message that you have for the athletes out there about kind of taking responsibility for their own careers? And, and thinking about?

• 41:40Rich Roll?

  Performance in the kind of sunset of those careers.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  You know, I, I think it's the biggest thing that I learned just from my age and being in the sport for so long is listen to your body. I think you always wish you can do what you wanted to do when you were younger and, um, you know, when your body needs to break, you need to take breaks. Um, you know, I, uh, I, I'm a big believer in learning from people. Uh, you know, when I started hiring these people to work with me, I did a lot of research on them. I tried to, you know, see what worked for them and, and what they've been doing with other people. And I think researching and, and learning what's going to work best for you is, is really important. Um, and I think just, you know, loving the sport, like if you don't love it, you're not going to do well, you're,

• 42:26Speaker 01

  you know, and believing in what your coach, the story that your coach has said for you. And I think I'm learning that with my kids now as a coach, you know, letting them learn how to believe in you and what your story is for them.

• 42:39Rich Roll?

  I wanna, I have a lot of questions about the coaching part, but I want to kind of put a pin in that for now. I'm still thinking about you.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't, I know. You want to know like how I did it. I, I, you know, honestly, I just, it, it's, it's hard to explain. Like I just, I'm so competitive and once I'm in, like I'm all in and I'm going to do whatever I can to be the best I can be. And, you know, I mean, it was rough for me because I had people making accusations and insinuations, oh, she must be like taking drugs. There's no way a 41 year old can be doing this. And, you know, my philosophy is if Jack Nicholas can win a masters at 46 and Nolan Ryan can hit a no hitter at 44, why can't a 41 year old mom make an Olympic team? And so, you know, I immediately, when that's talk started to happen, I went to USADA, the US Anti-Doping Agency, like, look, what can I do? Like, how can I prove

• 43:28Speaker 01

  to people that I'm doing this the right way? And, you know, it was hard hearing like all the whispers and stuff, but they came up with in January of 08, so six months before trials, they came up with a sort of intricate, um, very intricate, uh, drug testing program. And they took, they took about two athletes from each sport. So it was me and Phelps who, uh, and they didn't really talk about it either, but they took 38 vials of blood from us within a couple of weeks and got a, a baseline and started testing us randomly and doing drug.

• 44:00Rich Roll?

  Biological passport.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Exactly. And people don't know that I did that, but I wanted to be a part of something. So. I can just prove that I, you know, was doing this the right way. And I mean, I can't give an exact answer of how I did it, but it's just a passion and love of the sport and trying to do things the right way and hiring the right people to be able to work with me so I can recover and be able to swim fast.

• 44:21Rich Roll?

  When you're 41 and you're, you're at the Olympics in Beijing and you're in the village.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:26Rich Roll?

  Uh, I mean, did you have to like room with teenagers and do that?

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 44:30Rich Roll?

  Do that deal or like, how did that, how did that go down?

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Well, you know, Beisel, you didn't hear the story?

• 44:34Rich Roll?

  No, I didn't know.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 44:35Rich Roll?

  Was she your roommate?

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Well, so we get to the village and, um, you know, I just assumed they were going to put me by myself because I'm, you know, 41 years old. And so they gave me a card. It said, okay, you're rooming with Elizabeth Beisel and Alison Schmidt. I'm like, okay, whatever, you know, they're young kids. Maybe they want me to mentor them or anything. And so I get to the bottom of the dorm and I start to walk up to like the third or fourth floor and I hear this like screaming and laughing. I'm like, what the heck is this? And I look in there and there's Elizabeth and Alison. I'm like, oh, I am out, you know, I can't room with like teenagers, like 15 and 17 year old, like I just can't. And I said, I'm like, no offense to you guys. You guys are like my kids, but there's, you know, you guys are in a different like headspace than I am. And

• 45:20Speaker 01

  this is your first Olympic games and I need to have a room by myself. So they ended up giving me a room to myself. But yeah, initially they had me with a 15 and 17 year old.

• 45:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So. And how did that work? Like being that much older, like it's almost like a, a, you know, weird museum curiosity, you know, for these young kids, but you have all this wisdom, you know, I'm sure like they're all like, you know, tell us, you know, what you've learned and discovered or are they, you know, or is that, was that not what it was?

• 45:48Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, it was, there were definitely times where they'd come up to you, but I'll never forget specifically in 2000, we were at our training camp and I think, okay, I'm 33, like hopefully the young kids want to come up to me and ask me stuff. And I get this like knock on my door. I'm like, hey, what's up? Like, you know, Derek, I want to ask you some questions. I'm like, great, come in, you know, and they, the girls come in and they have this like Cosmopolitan magazine and they're like, hey, and here it says that, you know, they give condoms out at the Olympic Village, is that true? I'm like, that's what you guys want to know if they give like condoms out to the Olympic Village? And they're like, yeah.

• 46:20Rich Roll?

  Of course, that's what they want to know.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm like, yeah, they do. Okay, get out, you know, or whatever. It's just, you know, but, but, um, you know, you have to remember that when you get to the Olympic Games, you're that great of an athlete that you sort of know what to do if you're there. You know, there are definitely some younger kids on the team that I try to mentor a little bit and, you know, I really enjoy that. I, I, even if they're not Americans, I'd have other like, other athletes come up to me and say, how did you do this? And like, what did you do for your weight training? And, you know, which was really cool. A few athletes would do that, but, um, you know, it's, you're already there and you kind of know what you're doing. You don't want to mess with what you already have done, I guess.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Um, I think the biggest thing is just like what to expect when you get to Olympic Village and get to Olympic Games.

• 47:09Rich Roll?

  Being this insanely competitive person, like A plus plus, you know, sort of like type A plus plus. Is that like, does that make it like, are you competing at everything all the time with everybody?

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Everything.

• 47:21Rich Roll?

  Is that like a challenge for your friendships?

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:24Rich Roll?

  It's, uh, Like, how does that work?

• 47:26Speaker 01

  I, I'm a lot more like mellow about it, but inside it just boils and says,

• 47:30Rich Roll?

  What is the motivation? Is it like to be the best? Is it to beat other people? Is it just like, you know, I want to master all things. Like, where is that coming from?

• 47:39Speaker 01

  I, I, I think it's like in my blood, like,

• 47:41Rich Roll?

  You have nothing to prove.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  No, I, I don't. But like, here's a perfect example. So one of the things I like to do with my college teams, I like to take each class out. And so I took the freshmen out to do something fun. And I'm like, hey, we're gonna go go karting. They're like, awesome. So the, the freshmen were like talking smack in the car as I was, you know, driving them. They're like, oh, this is gonna be great. We're gonna like haul ass and this and that. I'm like, okay, you know, I'm just like sitting there driving the car, you know, whatever. And we get there and the minute my helmet's on and the goggles are on, I get in that car, I'm like, screw everyone. And I'm like, you know, and I, and these poor little freshmen, like, I'm just like whipping them in the wall and you hear no bumping on the thing. I'm like, I don't care, you know? And every lap, like I had to win. And I, and it was like, you know, they're 18, who cares, you know? But it's like this blood boils in me where I have to win.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  No, I can't help it. And I felt, and they were like walking with their, especially the boys, they were kind of walking with their tail between their legs. I'm like, I'm sorry, you know, I just,

• 48:34Rich Roll?

  Did they, did they know that you had won the Long, Long Beach Grand Prix?

• 48:39Speaker 01

  I think they looked it up afterwards.

• 48:42Rich Roll?

  But you know what you're doing behind the wheel.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Well, like you were in a race, so that's not fair, you know? And I'm like, okay.

• 48:49Rich Roll?

  Oh, my God.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm very competitive.

• 48:54Rich Roll?

  There's no off switch, is there?

• 48:55Speaker 01

  No, there really isn't.

• 48:56Rich Roll?

  So here you are, we're the same age and, you know, on top of like, you know, the comeback story and all the Olympic stuff and the medals and blah, blah, blah.

• 49:05Rich Roll?

  You just might be like the, the fittest 57, 58 year old. I don't know how old you like.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  58.

• 49:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, 58 year old, like not woman, but like person in the world. Like you're insanely fit in these videos that you share on Instagram with your workouts and like the focus and the dedication and the consistency that like, setting aside like intentional recovery, like there's no days off.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know. Like I flew from Singapore last night, so I had to take that day off.

• 49:33Rich Roll?

  But are you the person who's like on the plane, you know, getting up every 20 minutes to like do burpees and stuff?

• 49:38Speaker 01

  Let me tell you, do lunges down though. I, it's funny, I just posted something about that. Like I said, there's no way I'm going to last 13 and a half hours from Boston to Japan, you know, without doing some kind of lunges or something in, in the aisle. No, I like, I think I was like that a lot younger. I don't think I'm like that as much anymore. I do, you have to remember like we trained what like four to six hours a day. Like it was insane. So to be, to do a workout every day, that's like 45 minute long, 45 minutes long. I don't think that that's that bad, you know? So I'm going from something where it was my whole entire life to something where it's just like 45 minutes to an hour out of my day. But there's something about like this morning I was up at 6 a.m. and I went to the hotel

• 50:20Speaker 01

  gym to work out just because it wakes me up. It, you know, sort of releases like any kind of tension I have. It just starts my day off where I just feel great the rest of the day if I get a workout in.

• 50:34Rich Roll?

  Is there a strict regimen or routine, like setting aside travel, like when you're just at home?

• 50:41Rich Roll?

  That are, what are like the non-negotiables? And what are the, the kind of things that, that you mix in some flexibility? Cause you're like a group fitness person also, like you do all kinds of stuff.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  You know, I do, I like to do stuff on my own, but I, you gotta remember, like, I've been coached my whole life. So to have someone tell me what to do is much easier than for me to go to the gym and get in a, in a habit of doing the same things over and over, which I think a lot of people do, you know, like, like they'll do a workout, like, oh, this is great. And they'll just keep doing it and do it. And you get to a point where you're plateaued and you're not gonna, you're not gonna see changes in your body anymore. And so, um, you know, for me, I like someone like getting on my ass and saying, hey, like, you're not doing this right. Or you're not, you know, I thrive on that kind of stuff rather than just going to the gym by myself and doing something.

• 51:25Rich Roll?

  And what is, uh, what are the differences now versus like 41? Like setting aside like being, you know, like, like competitive at the elite level, like in terms of how you have to approach your recovery, your body, your strength training, like what is, what have you discovered like works? And what have you had to let go of or like adapt? Like, I'm looking for, like, I wanna know, you know, this is, this is for the fellow Gen Xers out there. Like, you know, like I'm coming off spinal fusion surgery.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 51:56Rich Roll?

  I'm really like, I can't do anything, you know? And I'm just looking at my body decompose in real time and just, and, and thinking about like the road back to some degree of, you know, some modicum of fitness. And I know how difficult, you know, how that's harder now than it used to be. Like you can't just bounce, bounce back in the way that.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  It's brutal.

• 52:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  It, it really is brutal and, um, you have to know that, like, I feel like when you have to take time off or you have a surgery like you had, you lose muscle a lot quicker than you used to. And it takes a lot longer to be able to put it back on again. And I think that's the biggest, um, obstacle I think I've seen as I've gotten older. You know, I, I have, starting to get a little loose skin in places and stuff that, you know, there's nothing you can do about it. You're, you're aging, but you know, as long as I can continue to work out, like if, if there's something that you can do that. You know, post-surgery that maybe doesn't include your back or your spine, you're doing lower body or like, I would always find things to do when I, after I'd had, I've had many surgeries.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  So after I'd have a surgery, like if I had knee surgery, I would, you know, put one foot on top of the other and do pushups where I wasn't using that leg, you know, like there was always things I would try to do um to take place of not being able to do something because of an injury or something else that happened. So I always find that there's no excuses. I mean, I had pneumonia for like two and a half weeks, so I had to take like a week off because I was literally like on my ass.

• 53:24Rich Roll?

  But there was a week and a half of having pneumonia.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, I think my head was like spinning, but um, you know, you, you have to listen to your body, but I, a lot of people will make excuses because something's hurt or, you know, you don't have enough time, but you can always make time to work out.

• 53:41Rich Roll?

  It's easier to stay in shape than to get in shape.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yes, 100%.

• 53:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What's the worst shape that you've ever been in? Like how, like how, how, what's the, like, the most that you've ever let it go? It's like almost nothing, probably.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Well, I'll let you know when I get to that.

• 53:55Rich Roll?

  See, like, that's, that's what I was looking for. You strike me as a very devoted parent. How old is your daughter?

• 54:06Speaker 01

  She's 19.

• 54:07Rich Roll?

  19, um, like extremely attentive, you know, caring and loving parent. But how does the whole competitive thing work with, you know, raising a child? Like, how does that not spill over, you know, in, in sort of toxic ways?

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Well, the minute she turned 18, then it was anyone's game.

• 54:23Rich Roll?

  Okay, like, are you competing with her, you mean?

• 54:25Speaker 01

  No, like, well, she would like race me to the kitchen. I'm like, oh my God, she's me, you know? She started to like be like that a little bit. Um, you know, but the thing is, is that like, I know exactly what she's thinking because I was there. And so, like, even going to the elevator, we were in Singapore and we're both kind of walking and then all of a sudden, like we raced to touch the button, you know? And so, and I knew she was gonna do that. So, like, we definitely have, like, competitive moments, but that's sort of also you have to take a step back and, you know, but like I said, it's a free for all. Once you turn 18, it's like, I, I'll compete with her in anything.

• 54:58Rich Roll?

  She an athlete?

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Uh, she used to play lacrosse and then was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, had part of her small intestine taken out. So then she stopped playing lacrosse. So now she is like a sports fanatic nut that knows every sport, every stat. Like, um, she goes to Penn State. She does photography at their, their online publication for ice hockey and, you know, wrestling. And I think she just got assigned football this next year. So, um, she's a sports nut, but in a different way now.

• 55:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:30Rich Roll?

  So walk me through this decision to get into coaching. You know, you're, you're an athlete, a competitor your whole life and then, and, and, and never, you know, have kind of showed any interest really in, in, in getting involved in coaching. So I think the, the community, the swimming community was like, what? Oh, wow. Like out of the blue, like.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Some weren't excited about it either.

• 55:51Rich Roll?

  It's like, oh, really? Why is that?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  I think there was just like jealousy. Well, she's not a USA swimming coach.

• 55:57Rich Roll?

  Oh, because you didn't put your dues, you didn't pay your dues.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 55:59Rich Roll?

  Because you just went right to a head coaching job instead of working your way up.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  A lot of people that weren't thrilled with it.

• 56:03Rich Roll?

  That's interesting.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Um, which, you know, is fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. You know, I think being coached by some of the best coaches in the world that have a combined total of 18 NCAA titles, they've coached over 50 Olympians and been to over 15 Olympic Games gives me a little bit of credibility. Um, you know, I had a little issue and people really took like negatively it when I did a Swim Swam, uh, interview and said, I didn't even know how to use a stopwatch, except when I was younger.

• 56:28Rich Roll?

  I saw that, yeah.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I got such negative like feedback from that. Um, but it was a joke because my, and I didn't explain that, that my associate head coach, Bruno, had given me like the Rolls Royces of stopwatches. It wasn't just start, stop and reset. It was, and split. It was like three buttons and it took like four times to get to a certain thing. And I'm like, oh my God. Like it was just so confusing, but people, I was just joking around and people like took it the wrong way. But, um, it, I love it. Like one of the reasons why I took it is because, um, I really want to give back to the sport. I want to teach these kids stuff that I learned, not just in the pool or in the, um, gym, but also like mentally

• 57:08Speaker 01

  how to deal with something. And I think, um, the most rewarding part of it is, um, knowing that you've made a difference in someone's life. And like the perfect example is I had a kid who was a senior this past year, who was really struggled at our mid-season meet and he was leading the lanes and everything and decided like. Okay, I didn't do well here and I'm just not gonna lead the lane anymore. And I came up to him after a week, I said, what are you doing? And he said, well, I've come to the conclusion that, you know, we had this past year off and, you know, coming back, like, you know, I just know I'm not gonna make the ACC team. They only let 18 of each gender go. And he said, so I'm just gonna enjoy, you know, my last year. And I'm like, no, I go, why do you, why are you saying you're not gonna make the ACC team?

• 57:51Speaker 01

  He said, I just know I'm not, it's not fast enough after that meet. I'm like, you have three more months to train. I said, it's not in my head, you're not making it. And so then he started to get back into it. And then after he made the team, did his best times, best splits ever. And he came up to me after and thanked me so much and for believing him. But his mom came up to me and said, you know, he's worked with so many coaches and the fact that you can get through to him mentally was like the happiest moment for a mom to be able to see that with her child. And I just, that was like, oh, my God, this is why I'm doing it, you know? Just, and you're not gonna reach everyone, you're not gonna be able to help everyone. But if there's some kids that you can help and you know you're gonna like, you know, leave a lasting imprint on, you know, that's the most satisfying thing to me ever.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  And I think the one, it's funny, because when I got interviewed to coach at Boston College, you know, I went through the whole process, you know, three interviews. And one of the questions they asked me was if there was one word that can describe what you want your kids to come out of your program, going into the next chapter in their lives, like, what would it be? And I say confidence, like, that's really what I wanna teach my kids is to have the confidence, you know, in the pool that we'll be able to trickle out into other aspects in their lives.

• 59:03Rich Roll?

  Translate over the remainder of their life.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:06Rich Roll?

  What was it about Boston College? Like, it's a, it's a very interesting choice. Like, I think one would expect or imagine that if you were to become interested in coaching, that you would go to Florida or Texas or maybe Stanford or these places where you had trained in the past, you know, real like kind of legacy, you know, swimming programs.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  I, I reached out to a couple of teams and there wasn't really anything available. And I was like, you know what, like, As I've talked throughout this interview with you is like, I love challenges and the fact that they had an off year the year before, they're at the bottom of the ACC, their kids that I hadn't recruited, you know, there were just so, and there's no scholarships. So I'm like, well, can't get any better. Like you have nowhere to go but up with that, you know? And so I wanted to be able to come in and make a difference with these kids, but also somehow start trying to inch up towards the bottom of the ACC.

• 1:00:01Rich Roll?

  I didn't realize they didn't have scholarships there.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's really hard.

• 1:00:04Rich Roll?

  But that's not, that doesn't apply to football and hockey.

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  No, there's a few sports that don't have scholarships at Boston College.

• 1:00:09Rich Roll?

  It's just a funding, it's a funding issue.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Title IX funding, like a lot of stuff.

• 1:00:13Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Boston College is a very interesting place. I think I, you know, I had, I texted you as much, but like I was just there. I was in Boston for a week. I had some work stuff, but also I had my daughter and she's going into her senior year and I was like, let's, let's, let's go. She's a California kid. She's never seen the East Coast, you know, kind of college thing. And I was like, all right, well, we'll just, we'll go, we'll go like do some tours, right? And the first one was Boston College, which was kind of like a mind blower, you know, because it's just nothing like you would imagine, like growing up in, in Los Angeles. It's sort of like the, you know, the, everything you imagine, kind of like an upper tier, like really good, you know, east, like northeast,

• 1:00:56Rich Roll?

  you know, kind of college, you know, university would look like with the, with the impeccably manicured lawns and, and the, you know, all the Harry Potter, you know, library and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. But it's, it's curious because it's kind of a small college, but it's also kind of a university and it has these amazing sports facilities and, and sports programs. Like it's, isn't it like the women's hockey team? Like they won NCAA championships?

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're lacrosse, won NCAA.

• 1:01:26Rich Roll?

  Lacrosse, right. And like, you know, we, we're old enough to remember Doug Flutie and like all that, right?

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  The statue's right there in front. Yeah.

• 1:01:34Rich Roll?

  And the whole kind of Jesuit thing, which is a very interesting philosophical approach to education that I quite like. It was funny because my daughter was like, what is happening here? Anyway, she's got like a punk rock t-shirt on, Doc Martens or whatever. And there's like a lot of guys with like pop collars and lacrosse sticks or whatever. But it was cool. And I had completely spaced that you were the coach there for some reason. Otherwise, I would have definitely pinged you and would have loved to have seen you and gotten like an insider's view of what's going on over there. But in terms of its swimming program, it's not like, we're not talking about Auburn or like these other places that you hear about when you hear about NCAA swimming.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I said, I think it was the challenge of it. And they took a chance on me to come in and make a change with this program, change team culture. We ended up having 100 best times ever last year. So we did really well.

• 1:02:33Rich Roll?

  Now you get to recruit.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have my first recruiting class coming in a few weeks. And I'm going out to Junior Nationals to do some recruiting. And yeah, it's a lot. But it's funny because I dropped my daughter off at Penn State last August on a Friday. And I'm like, ah, empty nester. It's going to be so quiet. And then like three days later on a Monday, school starts, I inherit 54 kids. So I had a three-day empty nester.

• 1:03:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  I had three days of empty nesting. Then it was like...

• 1:03:08Rich Roll?

  Is it like Friday Night Lights, Coach Taylor, where they're knocking on your door with some crisis in the middle of the night because something happened?

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  I do leave my phone on, my school phone, work phone on in case there's an emergency. But we have our little ups and downs and stuff, typical like college stuff that happens, but nothing outrageous or crazy. But yeah, remember, I'm dealing with 54 different personalities. That's what Richard Quick comes into my head, like, okay, like, how do you think this person deals with this? And so it was definitely a little bit to get used to. And also... Just knowing who these kids were, because I didn't recruit them. So I took screenshots of all their Instagram like profiles. So I knew who was who when I got there because I didn't know names and you know with the caps, they didn't have the names on the caps. And they're swimming and I'm looking at my associate head coach Bruno. I'm like, do

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  you know who this person is? Like, I have no idea, you know? And so we're like, hey, you, like, your elbow has to do this. So, you know, we didn't know names for like two, three weeks. So that was hard, too.

• 1:04:10Rich Roll?

  You have worked with so many of the world's greatest coaches over the years. So I, you know, obviously you have an appreciation for, for great coaching. But what, what is it about coaching that maybe you failed to appreciate before, you know, having to actually do it yourself? I'm sure there's a lot of things that you discovered and learned about this world that maybe you took for granted or didn't quite fully understand.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  I think there's a couple of things. Number one, on the college level, I didn't know how much administrative work you had to do. I don't have assistants or, I mean, like, like administrative assistants. Like, I have Coach Bruno and Coach Chris, and that's it. And Chris is a volunteer assistant. And so, and we have now, this year now, we have like 48 kids. And so after like two weeks, my sports administrator comes up to me, he's like, you know, when I hired you, I really underestimated how little you know about administrative work. I'm like, I had an agent. Like, I don't know what you want from me. Like, I don't know anything. And so there's all these different platforms. You have to log like every phone call, every email that you make with a recruit. You have

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  to put on a week ahead of time what the schedule is for the kids. And if you change it the day before, you're not allowed to do that. Like, you have to give them 25. There are so many things. Like, you're only allowed to coach 20 hours a week, which, God, I wish we had that when we were, you know, swimming in college. Like, there was, there's just so many different things that I didn't know about. I think from a different perspective, aside from the administrative stuff, you know, being able to watch.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  All your, like if you're having a dual meet, obviously it's an eight lane pool. You have four swimmers you're watching and you have to be able to watch like everything that's going on and maybe one's so far ahead than the other and you're trying to, so they come up to you afterwards, you're like, okay, what did I do wrong or what I need to work on? And that's a lot to be able to try to, you know, watch everyone and put into words, you know, what maybe someone needs to improve on in their races and stuff. So that was, I was, I think, very appreciative of how my coaches handled that out of all the years that I swam. And then also just like, I guess, figuring out what works for everyone, you know, like as we've talked about, like everyone's built differently and, you know, what may work for one sprinter may not work for another sprinter. And so you have to really listen,

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  watch and learn what works for everyone and, you know, make some switches as you're going and not just go off, you know, your workout. Like, you know, once your workout's up, that's not just it. You may have to make changes in it. And I'm usually like creature of habit. Okay, it's up, that's what you're doing. But you have to go with the flow.

• 1:06:47Rich Roll?

  It's a, it's a challenging equation to solve when there's so many people. I mean, you have to be on some level a psychologist. You have to understand, you know, who these people are, what makes them tick, how to communicate with them, how to, how to really connect with them in a meaningful way. You have to be kind of a preacher, a cheerleader to, to get them riled up and excited. And then in the college context, you also have to be a politician, you know, for these administrative reasons. I'm sure there's lots of personalities that you have to navigate and there, everybody has different agendas and stuff like that, which makes it all the more delicate.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  My, my sports administrator, my boss, has sat me down numerous times and said, okay, maybe you can approach this like a little bit differently when, you know, you do this. And I'm like, you know, thank God for you because you could just yell at me, you know, but at least you sit me down and talk very calmly to me about-

• 1:07:38Rich Roll?

  Strategies for effective.

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  Yes, of how to approach different, because, you know, swimming,

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  You know, just as a sport, it's been kind of been at the bottom of at, you know, Boston College. And now, you know, I think there's a lot of enthusiasm and, um, you know, I don't want to say it's been in the bottom, you know, all the time, but it's just, you know, it's a sport that we have to sort of fight for a little bit. Um, I remember when we first got there, um, you know, the trainer was like, hey, you know, you guys, we have the training room. It was like, oh, we can go in the like, the kids didn't even go in the training room before. I'm like, you never use a training room? Like, we have recovery and massages and cupping and needle.

• 1:08:16Rich Roll?

  Because they're like second-class citizens or something like that compared to the other sports?

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  No, but it's not Boston College's fault. I think maybe the coaches didn't know that it was there. Like, I'm, I'm always fighting for them and making sure that they're getting everything that everyone else is getting, you know? And it, it, I think it was a process, but it wasn't necessarily Boston College. It was that the kids didn't know. And so I had to say, hey, listen, like, you have all these, you know, availabilities for you to be able to like, use a training room or, or go, you know, to the, um, sports psychologist or do, you know, whatever you guys need, you know, you should need to take advantage of it. And so that's something that's a little bit new, I think, for the Swimmers. They didn't really realize or know that they can go in there and do that.

• 1:08:57Rich Roll?

  But it's got to be exciting for Boston College to have. I mean, you have to be the most decorated coach, you know, at the university by a, by a long shot, right? So there has to, there has to be some buzz and some, at a minimum, like curiosity around, you know, you just finished, you finished your first year, you're about to start your second year there. Like, when it came to the dual meets, just like, oh, we, we need to go see what's going on over here. Like, you know, we have Dara Torres now. What's happening?

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's funny because our first season, we didn't have a schedule when I got hired. And I got hired like maybe a month and a half before school started. And I was, and so when I got the job, I'm like, hey, what should I do first? He's like, get a schedule. I'm like, okay, so do you have someone who has like numbers or like the teams? And he's like, no, it's all you. And I'm like, oh, my God. So I was like cold calling like coaches. And I'm like, hey, can you put us on your schedule?

• 1:09:46Rich Roll?

  What am I supposed to do?

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I didn't know what to do. And so our first year, like-

• 1:09:50Rich Roll?

  Scheduling mean like dual meet schedule?

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:52Rich Roll?

  Like, there weren't any scheduled meets?

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Nothing. There was nothing.

• 1:09:54Rich Roll?

  And like it's the coach's responsibility to set that up?

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:58Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's weird. I would have never thought that.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  I had to do that and I'm like, you know, so I'm reaching out to all these schools and they already had their schedule like a year in advance. So we only had one home meet last year against BU and that was it. So this year we have a couple more and we're adding more as we go, go along and we're adding a lot tougher teams too, as, as our schedule progresses and our year, the years progress. But yeah, so I don't really know. I mean, there were a lot of people that showed up for that first meet, uh, which was great, but, um, hopefully we'll get more buzz and, and, you know, get sort of, get it going. But I'm super excited about our incoming classes coming. I think it's going to be great, like great meshing with the team now and, and just the attitude of these kids. They're young. They, they're hungry. They want to swim fast. They want to train hard.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  So I think it's gonna really just, you know, make it sort of like a domino effect on my team.

• 1:10:50Rich Roll?

  How many, uh, NC2A, Division One head swimming coaches are there that are women right now?

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  You know what? It's funny because I, I reached out to Mel before I got hired. I could throw that in there in my interview, you know, and, um, he wasn't a hundred percent sure, but I,

• 1:11:06Rich Roll?

  Mel Stewart?

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, Mel Stewart, because he has all the stats on everything, you know? And so, um, you know, I reached out to him and, and he gave me a few names, but there was definitely under 10. Like I can't think of like 10. Head coach, D1.

• 1:11:20Rich Roll?

  The one that sticks out in my mind, what's her name? Tara?

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Tara McEver.

• 1:11:23Rich Roll?

  Tara McEver. And she's like the legend, but she's not, she's no longer coaching, right?

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's not at Cal. So there are female coaches that coach women, um, but I don't know how many.

• 1:11:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but not full programs like that. You're coaching the men and the women.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Um, well, hopefully this is, you're disrupting things again, Tara. You can't help it.

• 1:11:44Rich Roll?

  There is, I'm curious around a sensitive issue. Uh, as we both know, like USA Swimming has a little bit of a, you know, checkered past when it comes to, um, Coaching abuse and you know, I feel like you're somebody with a very strong parental instinct. Like, how do you think about, you know, that checkered past? What's being done to course correct it? Like, I don't even know like what the changes are, what that looks like right now. I just know like there was a lot of bad stuff for a while and, and maybe not the best strategy in, in, in like dealing with it and resolving it and, and creating kind of a safer system.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  Oh, USA Swimming is doing an awesome job now of, of creating a safer system. They have for coaches online, you have to pass their safe sport, you know, tests. You're not allowed on deck unless you have that and you've passed and done background checks and stuff. So, um, you know, it's, it's a lot more intricate than it was back. They didn't really have, I think, a system back when we were swimming. But I mean, I've gotten calls about coaches from like way back when, um, hey, did this ever happen to you? And this, you know, and so they're, they're, they're doing their due diligence and doing what they're supposed to do to try to keep the sport safe. So it's a lot different now than it was back in the day. And, you know, if my daughter was a swimmer, I'd feel very comfortable with her.

• 1:13:05Rich Roll?

  That's good to know.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Being on a team, yeah.

• 1:13:07Rich Roll?

  But meaning like they're still sort of investigating things that happened a very, very long time ago?

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, wow. That's good to hear.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cause it, you know, there was a period there where it wasn't so great.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't. And, and it's a lot different now. Things are changing.

• 1:13:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  For sure, for the better.

• 1:13:24Rich Roll?

  I want to get back to, uh, like Gen X fitness.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  Do I mean to show you my abs already?

• 1:13:31Rich Roll?

  No, it's great. Yeah, like, well, they're like, they're like, you know, they're all time. We all know what you're doing, Dara.

• 1:13:38Rich Roll?

  And I'm thinking of the person, you know, who's kind of in our general age range, who, you know, maybe has had a history with fitness and has let it go a little bit. What in your experience have, you know, cause you, you do all these different, you know, you know, you have, aren't you like a co-owner in some bars, bar studios?

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  I used to be.

• 1:13:55Rich Roll?

  Stuff like that and like Pilates and like all these group fitnesses and bands and all kinds of stuff. Like, what have you found? And, and these things are always changing. You know what I mean? What have you found like effective or like a, a kind of, oh, like, maybe you should try this. This is like really cool and people aren't talking about it. Or is it just basic foundational boring stuff?

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  You know, we teased about me taking group classes and stuff, but. There's something about having people next to you to be motivating, but also not feel intimidated. Like a lot of times you go to these classes and you know, you may not have never tried it before. But you know, it's not about what someone else thinks, it's about you and doing, doing the workout. And so what motivates me is having someone tell me what to do. You know, I like, I like to mix it up. I think doing, you know, people are getting a rut, we talked about earlier of doing the same thing over and over again, or they like that, but you need to mix up a little bit, even mix up what you're doing. So for example, like I'll do solid core three days a week, which is Pilates on steroids, basically.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  It's, it's like a crazy workout, but they start with beginner classes if you want to learn how to do it, but it works your overall body, especially your core. Like it's crazy how much it works your core, but they do different muscle groups each day. It varies what they want to do. That's a great 45, 50, actually a 50 minute workout. I take boxing classes at Rumble Boxing, which is a lot of fun. I actually have my kids, we go, my team, and we'll do Rumble Boxing workouts instead of dry land, just to mix it up a little bit.

• 1:15:31Rich Roll?

  Wow, that has to be the only collegiate swimming program that is, that is like going to a boxing class.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  It's fun, like you have to mix it up with the kids, you know, it's, it's, it's really about, you know, you have your academics, Boston College is 12% acceptance rates to get in. You have your training, you have to mix it up a little bit. And as you know, like it gets very boring and monotonous and you know, I think it's just fun to, to do some different things. So yeah, so Rumble Boxing is a lot of fun. It's bags on one side, a bench with weights on the other side, and you keep switching, doing rounds and switching and stuff. And they play loud music and I love that. I'll go and work out at our facility at Boston College.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  I take spin classes, you know, I just, to me, it's again about mixing it up to make it fun, because it gets really boring after a while. But you know, you talk about a lot of Gen Xers like, How, you know, we might have already worked out, but now we've kind of like slacking a little bit. There's also people that haven't really worked out a lot at all in their lives. And it's that intimidation practice, intimidation, you know, notion of like, I'm too intimidated to go to a gym. I've never done this. But, you know, hire a trainer just for once. Learn how to do the moves. Or, you know, there's so many like group, group classes that are less expensive than going and, you know, trying to do private lessons. If you don't have, you can't afford it or whatever, don't have the money. There's different ways you

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  can work out. If you work, you know, a building that has stairs, take stairs, you know, that would be great to do, like when you're coming in and out of the building. If you're at home or a stay at home mom, like, take cans of food and do biceps, do triceps, do like, you know, arm lifts. Like, there's so many things that you can do to work out. But don't worry about other people. Like, don't worry about how someone else looks or whatever. It's about yourself and being in the zone and doing what's best for you. Because eventually you will get there, you know. But there is always that intimidating factor that, you know, people, there's a lot of reason why people don't want to go to the gym.

• 1:17:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's, it's scary to go to the gym when you're out of shape.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:34Rich Roll?

  And even scarier to put yourself in a group fitness class where, you know, kind of there's, there's a, everybody's measuring themselves against each other. Like, it just that, that like, that's a dial click.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  But everyone started once at some point. So you have to remember that.

• 1:17:47Rich Roll?

  It's hard to like, get out of that, you know, that, that kind of thing. When was the last time you got up on the blocks and timed yourself for a 50 freestyle?

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  I think when I probably.

• 1:17:58Rich Roll?

  Like, like, three days ago?

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. Probably when I did masters at, at Harvard, when I lived there from 2012 to 2016, probably. But.

• 1:18:06Rich Roll?

  Oh, really? So it had, oh, come on. You don't like, every once in a while, be like, let's see what I can throw down?

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  Never.

• 1:18:11Rich Roll?

  You never have your kids, like, here, you take, you take the stopwatch, I don't know how to work, and like, time me?

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  They want to. They want me to go out and, you know, and there's, it's funny, because there's some times when they'll be doing something, I'm like, God, I can even do that. And they're like, no, you can't coach. And then like, they'll all leave, and then I'll get in the pool, and I'll say, okay, like, I'll say to Lifeblood, hey, you got to film this.

• 1:18:30Rich Roll?

  After they're gone? You don't want, you don't want them to see?

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:18:32Rich Roll?

  Well, they're gonna listen to this. So now they know. So you guys, next, you're gonna be, by the time you hear this, you're probably back in school, like, you know, maybe like, hide in the corners or whatever after practice.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:18:45Rich Roll?

  So you do, so you quietly secretly like.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  I do secretly.

• 1:18:49Rich Roll?

  All right, yeah, like I knew it. You're too competitive not to.

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  I am too competitive.

• 1:18:52Rich Roll?

  So here's the thing, like, when are you gonna go back to Masters Nationals and like just wipe the record books clean for your age group? Or is that not interesting? Cause it's not hard enough for you.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  No, it's not that. It's just that I, well, you should know, like, most swimmers, and you talked about this earlier, like, once you're done swimming, like, that's it. Like, you really have no desire to do it again.

• 1:19:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but that's not you.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  I know, but I haven't gotten to that point yet where, I mean, I started to get in a little bit this year after, like, once the kids were out of the pool, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get in, like, you know, swim a little bit, but, um, I don't know, like, I, I mean, if it was an outdoor pool and 80 degrees out, that might be a little bit different, but, um, you know, being indoors and it's cold and, you know, I don't know.

• 1:19:31Rich Roll?

  Here's the thing, here, here's what I think you should do.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  What should I do, Rich?

• 1:19:34Rich Roll?

  Work out like a maniac, but like, never get in the pool. Like, do all your Pilates and core and spin and like boxing and whatever, and like, just don't even get wet once, and then just show up at Masters Nationals and get up on the blocks and swim a 50 freestyle and see what happens.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:19:49Rich Roll?

  I think you would be just fine.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know, I, I.

• 1:19:53Rich Roll?

  That would even make it more fun.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll see. The challenge is there, I guess.

• 1:19:58Rich Roll?

  We'll see. Our culture right now is obsessed with longevity. Like, there's all these breakthroughs in longevity science and, um, there's a lot of galaxy brains out there talking about, uh, you know, lifespan extension and reaching escape velocity, and we're gonna be able to, you know, repair ourselves and live forever and all this sort of stuff. And, you know, these are people who are, who are kind of out of the box thinkers and disruptors like yourself, but also, like, it's like, all right, is this, like, how much of this is coming from a place of fear rather than like, really kind of like engaging with life? And, you know, are those 100 supplements that you're taking every day really doing anything?

• 1:20:42Rich Roll?

  Uh, and when I try to make sense of, of. Of this conversation and like what's real and what's kind of like projection, I look to the people who are actually, you know, thriving and vital, you know, in their later years, and you're certainly one example of that. So in this conversation around longevity and health span extension, like what, setting aside like fitness routines, like what are your other practices that you believe have been important in contributing to like, you know, remaining vital and young and energetic?

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  I don't know. I guess I take care of myself. Like I take care of my skin. I take care of my hair, like all this stuff, but honestly, I eat just normally. Like you guys gave me a menu before we started taping and they're like, oh, here's some stuff. It's all vegan. It's all this. I'm like, oh, I go, this is so healthy, you know, and I eat healthy stuff, but I also don't deprive myself of things. So, um, you know, I think that's where I got in trouble when I had an eating disorder is depriving myself of food to the point where then you want it so badly after a while that you eat a lot more than you should. So, um, you know, I just, I eat my fruits and vegetables. I, you know, try to eat healthy, but I also have my snacks that I eat sometimes

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  and we'll have dessert every now and then. And like last night I had two scoops of ice cream. You know, I just, I don't know. I, I just try to enjoy life, you know, and, you know, do the things I need to do to make myself healthy, but also not deprive so much where you're just always in a state of wanting something and, you know, just being calm about it.

• 1:22:17Rich Roll?

  Having a, having a balanced, healthy approach to things amidst your very out of balance competitiveness that keeps you on the edge.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  That makes up for it.

• 1:22:24Rich Roll?

  Um, the, the eating disorder thing, I mean, that was, was that back like during the University of Florida days or like, but it spanned, it went on for a while though, right? Like what was, what was happening there?

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  So my freshman year, uh, weight was a big issue. As you know, like coaches were very much into being lean and fit and, you know, I, my body was changing. I was becoming a woman and it just wasn't where I think my coach wanted it to be. And, you know, he was a little bit of a stickler for weighing us every week and seeing. You know, if we, uh, he wants us at a certain weight and every couple, every week we have to lose a couple of pounds and it just wasn't happening. And someone introduced me to binging and purging and one thing went to another and it became like an addictive thing. And so I had it for about five years, but then you don't just get, oh, you get over the physical part of it, but then there's the mental aspect of, you know, still having some cravings for stuff and like, do I do this or don't, or how do I, you know,

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  or being intimidated of certain foods because that's what you're binging and purging and you don't want to get heavy if you do that. And so really I, I, I've struggled for years with that. And then, I mean, I, I had my disorder in, um, started in 85. And then it went through until about like 91. And then after that, I didn't do the physical part of it, but I was still mentally sort of dealing with it. And when I got to swim with Richard Quick, he was like, listen, I know you had an eating disorder. I want you to, learn about the Atkins diet and the protein and how you can like mix things and maybe, you know, not have as much bread, but you have more protein. And, you know, so he kind of taught me how to re-eat again. And I finally got over my fear of foods, which, which took a long time.

• 1:24:03Rich Roll?

  The eating disorder thing is trickier to understand with the elite athlete because there is that like, hey, I have to be at a certain weight, you know, to perform at my best. And oftentimes there's a coach who's like reinforcing that. But fundamentally like, and for that, the average person who suffers for that, it's, it's, it's an affliction of, of, of trying to exert control over your life. When your life feels out of control, like this is something that makes me feel like I have agency or whatever. And I'm just curious, like, how does, you know, how did that work with you? Like when you try to make sense of like, why you were doing this to yourself? Like, cause you were young, you were like very successful at a young age. You kind of moved away from how like,

• 1:24:46Rich Roll?

  there is, I would imagine there's some disorientation, you know, with trying to make sense of that world and, and kind of being, this person who was shouldering a lot of expectations and trying to live up to those expectations.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, um, I think for me, I felt more out of control because I didn't have control out of it. Like it became sort of an addiction and it just like, I just kept doing it, doing it to the point where it was almost like a chemical thing that I couldn't stop. Um, but, uh, you know, I think the hardest thing is for my coach, and I don't blame him because he didn't force me to do anything, you know, but his philosophy is the more intimidating you look on the starting blocks, the more intimidated your competitors will feel. And so he just wanted us to look lean and strong. And there's no rhyme or reason about how much weight we should lose or what we should weigh. But for me, it was, I didn't have control over it. I mean, some

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  people, it's a control thing, feeling they're in control of their body, but I was like out of control with it. And it was, it was a really dark time for me and a rough, you know, number of years that I went through. And it's very secretive. And, you know, you don't want people to know about it because then they'll think badly of you. And there were just so many components to it that, you know, really put me in a, I want to say almost like a depression. And it took a while to come out of it. And I learned a lot from it. And I've been able to talk to younger kids and even like women and men who are going through it and try to help them a little bit. But for me, it was about how I looked and wanting to, you know, look a certain way. So I looked intimidating on the starting

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  blocks.

• 1:26:28Rich Roll?

  How did you get out of it?

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  So what happened was, is I moved to New York after I was done with college. And my mom kept saying, oh, you haven't had a physical in a while. I think she knew like some, she knew for sure something was going on. And so I think she wanted me to just go talk to the doctor. So I went and got a physical. And at the end, she's like, oh, I want to ask you like, a bunch of questions. We always do this with all the patients. And I'm like, okay. And which I've never had done after that.

• 1:26:50Rich Roll?

  That was a setup.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  Yes. And so she asked me a whole bunch of questions. And one of them was like, have you ever binged and purged? I'm like, no. You know, and so then I left the office and I felt so bad for lying. I called her back. I said, hey, like I do binge and purge. And, you know, I don't know what to do about it or whatever. And so she set me up with a psychiatrist to go talk to about it. And slowly I started to like, I mean, I guess there are other factors that, you know, with. Having low self-esteem about certain situations that might have happened in my life and stuff, you know, it, it really helped me sort of dig myself out of it and not become so addictive. I may get to the point where I walk by a window and see something in a New York City window and be like, oh God, it looks so good and go in and then binge and purge because

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  I ate too much of it, you know? And so, um, so it was, it was a very long process to, to get over. But I think initially going to, you know, talk to the psychiatrist and sort of get me on the right track to deal with the emotional part of it really helped.

• 1:27:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's good. You like called yourself out. You were like, it's so funny. We want to lie to our therapists and our psychologists. It's like, these are the people that are here to help us.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I'm like, well, it's not going to help if I don't.

• 1:27:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. I know. But still, it's like, yeah, I want them to think well of us.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:28:02Rich Roll?

  You know, it's crazy.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:04Rich Roll?

  Your big thing is, uh, is that like, nobody should put an age limit on their dreams. This is part of like out of the box thinking or just kind of like reframing, you know, how we approach our lives. And, um, I wanted to kind of maybe end this with some thoughts about how we think about our dreams, our innate potential that is, you know, remains untapped and, and how to break through, uh, these, you know, kind of barriers that we erect, especially as we get older. It's like, this is my life and this is what I do. And like, oh, well, maybe I'll do that in the next life. Or, um, you know, all of the kind of just calcification that happens when we get older and, and then we kind of dismiss dreams that maybe, you know,

• 1:28:49Rich Roll?

  were important to us when we were younger.

• 1:28:51Speaker 01

  I think one of the things that really, um, motivated me besides the challenge of making a comeback in 08 was the fact that I had so many middle-aged people relying on me, uh, to make the Olympic team. And I didn't realize until I got to Olympic trials and everyone was making such a big deal about what I was doing. Um, that I, I feel like for me, the most rewarding part was being able to make the Olympic team, to be able to let middle-aged people know that you don't have to put an age limit on your dreams. You don't have to not do something because you're a parent. Um, you know, they're just, there are so many things that, you know,

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  I think we are stigmatized because of our age and you never know if you can do it unless you try. You know, is the biggest thing. And I think that it was so rewarding for me because so many people come up to me afterwards and say, oh, like, I never thought I'd be able to do something. And you really motivated me to do that. And that's just, it's not the medals that are rewarding. It's the, it's how you touch people's lives that's so rewarding.

• 1:29:56Rich Roll?

  And so, do you think about legacy in that regard? Or you're just, you're, I'm on to the next thing, moving forward?

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think about it.

• 1:30:05Rich Roll?

  You're just focused on what's in front of me?

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  I mean, if there was something that I'd want people to remember me by, you know, down the road, is probably being able to stay in the sport for so many years. I think that, and, and, yeah, I guess I think that's probably it. It's just, is, is, if I were to have a legacy, it would be the longevity of being in the sport and doing it at a later age. But I really don't, I don't really think about that.

• 1:30:32Rich Roll?

  I feel like you're a really important figure and piece in this evolving story around performance in our later years. And I think we're in this really remarkable era where we are seeing people, you know, just defying all these stereotypes of what's possible. And, and that goes for like, all different kinds of sports. Like, I think it's, it's

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 1:30:54Rich Roll?

  It's super cool, right?

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:55Rich Roll?

  It's totally different than

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  And women who, and women who are having kids also, like, who they think, oh, you wouldn't see that a lot like 20 years ago, you know? So.

• 1:31:05Rich Roll?

  I think it's fantastic. And you're a legend. I really appreciate you coming, coming here to share with me today.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  It's so nice to chat with you and meet you.

• 1:31:12Rich Roll?

  I know. It's super cool. And for any of you BC swimmers who are watching and listening, and you're still with us, like, you know, it's like, don't let her off the hook.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. I don't think anyone wants to see me in a swimsuit, honestly.

• 1:31:26Rich Roll?

  I think, I think they, I think that, I think they would very much like to see, you know, what you're capable of. I think you're afraid that you're going to be faster than all of them.

• 1:31:34Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:31:34Rich Roll?

  And what that might do to their psyche.

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 1:31:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So what can we expect for the BC team in this upcoming year?

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  Um, you know,

• 1:31:43Rich Roll?

  More than a couple dual meets, maybe?

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  More than a couple dual meets. I think we're gonna have some, some good show ins. Like I said, we have some great kids coming in. We have our returning kids who are training hard this summer. And, you know, it's just all about rebuilding the program. And it's going to take a little while. So this is, one thing I don't have is patience. So this is something I'm really gonna have to test my patience with, is just give it time.

• 1:32:05Rich Roll?

  Well, it's exciting. I think it's super fun. So I appreciate you sharing today. Thank you. It was nice to meet you. Yeah, cheers.

• 1:32:18Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the

• 1:32:59Rich Roll?

  help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy. Copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music was created

• 1:33:40Rich Roll?

  all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Blinds.