The Black Prince

He was one of medieval England’s most formidable warriors. Today we hear how Edward of Woodstock - the Black Prince - earned that reputation, tracing his rise during the Hundred Years’ War and exploring the nature of his command. We also confront the harsher realities of his campaigns, from brutal sieges to civilian suffering. Was he a hero, or something darker? Joining us is Michael Jones, historian and author of "The Black Prince: England's Greatest Medieval Warrior". Produced by James Hickmann and edited by Dougal Patmore. You can also email the podcast directly at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. We need your help! Let us know what you want from Dan Snow's History Hit by filling in our anonymous survey here: https://forms.gle/PvgayWLkWGjYT4St6 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Snow?

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• 1:25Dan Snow?

  The teenage prince was leading the vanguard. It was a position of honour and a position of danger. His father wanted his son blooded. He wanted his son to win his spurs, to emerge from his shadow, a leader in his own right. And that is exactly what the young prince did that day.

• 1:48Dan Snow?

  August 26th, 1346, at that Battle of Cressy. Prince Edward of England. While he came within a hair's breadth of being hacked to death, but it's in those margins that legends are made. Henry V only just survived taking an arrow to the face when he was a lad. Alexander the Great came millimetres from having his skull split in two at the launch of his invasion of Asia. Napoleon took a bayonet in the thigh in his first battle. And so it was with Prince Edward on that battlefield. Cressy was the first major clash of the Hundred Years' War, and after that battle overnight, Edward became one of Europe's most admired warrior princes.

• 2:33Dan Snow?

  You're listening to Dan Snow's History and we are talking all things Edward the Black Prince on this podcast. He's the eldest son of Edward III, one of the most celebrated military leaders of the Middle Ages. His part in the victories at Cressy and Poitiers during the Hundred Years' War made him a national hero, a figure of fascination across Europe at the time and through subsequent centuries, because he also embodied the ideals of chivalry and knightly honour. All the while, obviously, such is the contradiction of these things, he commanded campaigns marked by devastation and cruelty. As you'll hear, he lived at a time of shifting fortunes. I'll tell you, that wheel of fortune was spinning in that period. There was war with Scotland,

• 3:15Dan Snow?

  there was war with France, there was the devastation of the Black Death. His life and his early death left a legacy that shaped England and France. We're going to look at his rise, we're going to have his triumphs, the contradictions of the Black Prince, the man behind the myth. We're going to look at his tragic early death. We're going to talk about the prince that might have been a truly great king. The other day, I was exploring Canterbury Cathedral in Kent. We are filming for a history documentary, make sure you go and subscribe, and I found Edward the Black Prince's tomb. He chose to be buried in that great cathedral of Englishness. And there's the most extraordinary inscription on that

• 3:58Dan Snow?

  tomb. His effigy, him in his armour, corrects down to the rivets. There's an inscription on that tomb which is very, very arresting. It's haunting. "Such as thou art, so once was I. Such as I am, such shalt thou be. I little thought on the hour of death, so long as I enjoyed breath. Great riches here did I possess. I had gold, silver, wardrobes, great treasure, horses, houses, land. But now a poor catif I am, meaning a miserable wretch, deep in the ground, lo, here I lie. My great beauty is all quite gone. My flesh is wasted to the bone."

• 4:44Dan Snow?

  Something to think about there. It's the fate that awaits us all. Here's Dr Michael Jones, brilliant historian and broadcaster to talk us all through. He's written a book called The Black Prince. Make sure you go and check it out. Enjoy.

• 5:03Dan Snow?

  Michael, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  Big pleasure, Dan.

• 5:07Dan Snow?

  The Plantagenet's a one turbulent family, but actually the Black Prince, when he was born, he was born into a family that was feeling reasonably settled and sort of together without members of each, the various branches killing each other. I mean, it was, it was a pretty good time to be born as a Plantagenet prince.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Well, as a baby, he was in a turbulent time because his birth was actually the catalyst for Edward III, his father and his mother, Philippa of Eno. He was the catalyst for Edward sorting things out and creating what would be a very stable family. Because when the prince was born, young Edward was a puppet really being manipulated by a shadowy regime of his mother, Isabella, and her lover, Roger Mortimer.

• 5:53Dan Snow?

  Oh, yes, that's true. So he's still being dominated by his mum. Ah.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  He's being dominated by his mum and having his own son galvanise the 18-year-old Edward III.

• 6:06Dan Snow?

  Okay. So I've actually got my dates wrong. So actually, he was born into a bit of dynastic turbulence. So

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:12Dan Snow?

  His mum had invaded England and deposed his dad with her lover by her side. And they were ruling as sort of what, regents?

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Unofficially, yes. They were using Edward as a puppet in effect. And the big question was, would Edward form a group of supporters and take matters into his own hands? My own belief is the birth of his son galvanised him to do just that. And he, within a matter of months, he burst into where Isabella and Mortimer were staying, arrested Mortimer, sent his mum into exile, and Mortimer was tried and executed. So.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Within a few months, it had all changed for the better.

• 6:55Dan Snow?

  Crikey. So yeah, becoming a dad brought about a very real change in his circumstances.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Huge.

• 7:00Dan Snow?

  That's the beginning of Edward the Third. So Edward the Third goes on to become arguably England's greatest medieval king, rules for a long time. And so the Black Prince, I'll change what I said earlier, he certainly grows up. He experiences his formative years in a stable family environment, strong, youngish father, at the peak of his powers, England pretty peaceful.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, up to a point. One of the big issues in the early part of reign is the war with Scotland. The young prince would have certainly been hearing about that. Philippa of Eno, his mum, liked to travel and liked to support her husband. And certainly, even as a very young child, the Black Prince would have been brought up near the frontier to stay in a nursery, would have heard stories about it all. But this war with Scotland, the the French were supporting the Scots. So I think, yes, there was an element of stability, but war was ever present and it starts with Scotland and moves on to France.

• 8:04Dan Snow?

  Yes, I guess peace in medieval Western Europe is a sort of relative concept.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  A relative concept, yes, well put.

• 8:11Dan Snow?

  And so Edward the Third doesn't undo the damage done by his father Edward the Second, but how would you define his, the end of that war with Scotland? Just quickly before we get into the Black Prince's life, they fix, roughly speaking, a border that is still the border today, interestingly.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  Well, that war will still go on after the war with France opens. And fortunately, they're two big victories in the same year. I mean, we're jumping ahead, but the thing that knocks Scotland out is that an invading army is defeated and the King of Scotland is captured in 1346. And after that, it's quiet. But why I say this is that Edward undertakes a high risk strategy. Some of his advisors were saying exactly what you were saying. Don't even think about France, mate, until you've formed some kind of stability, some kind of peace with Scotland. And Edward does something rather similar to Henry the

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Fifth. He just goes for it. So high risk, high stakes, exciting, because it's very proactive, but risky.

• 9:18Dan Snow?

  And that is the start of what we might all recognise, the Hundred Years' War. But let's quickly come back to the Black Prince. So he's, he's no stranger to the military camp. He's travelled around about with his dad. He must have been impressed with that. I mean, there was this sort of martial revival going on. I mean, it felt like England and the English, the Plantagenet family were back after a very, very rough.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Massively so. He's being trained up for war from an early age, from about the age of seven. He's learning on the job. He's got his own miniature tent. He's got his own weapons. Now, this is seven years old. When his father then goes abroad, he puts the prince at the head of governing council. Now, he's not expecting the prince to take control, but he's surrounded by proper advisers. But he's expecting at a very young age, his son to learn on the job. And very movingly, in 1340, when the king fights a big naval battle and wins at Slous,

• 10:18Speaker 02

  young Edward goes up to say goodbye to him, actually boards the ship and says farewell. And then sends out a stream of messengers. How's my dad doing? Any news? So absolutely, this was a very powerful time. And I think the young prince was really in awe of his father, quite rightly so.

• 10:40Dan Snow?

  I've always been a big fan of Edward III for many reasons. And one of them is he does himself lead naval forces aboard the heaving deck of a ship.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, love it.

• 10:48Dan Snow?

  Which frankly, many of his descendants should have learned from because they were missing in action half the time. Well, Slous, we could do a whole podcast about that fascinating naval battle that sort of establishes English control of the Channel really, supremacy of the Channel, which means it's going to be largely one-way traffic during the Hundred Years' War that's to come. So from what you're saying, Michael, we hear all sorts of different things about medieval childhood. They're pretty close, are they? They're physically, geographically close. They are emotionally close, these two, father and son.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Well, they're not always physically close. So dad, in the period of childhood and adolescence, is frequently away in France. I mean, part of this is notional. When you have letters back home, there are also sort of public announcements. So it's kind of Edward III writes to his son. It's also going to be circulated. So everyone gets in on the act. But nevertheless, the letters from.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  Edward III to his son are moving. I think they show a strong relationship and in a sense, those frequent absences do make the heart grow fonder because it's the aspiration, it's the shared aspiration that's very powerful and it's being hinted at or more than hinted at from a very early age. I'm setting this up so that you can join in and together we can really put England back on the European map.

• 12:12Dan Snow?

  And it's interesting that point because unlike so many other sort of heir parents, the Black Prince is the oldest son. He survives adulthood. Well, it looks like that's right until the end. There's going to be quite a clear father to oldest son sort of transition, which is quite unusual, given the fate of, you know, Henry the Young King or many other medieval monarchs.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, he's the oldest of five boys, perhaps briefly, I should say at this stage, he's never known as the Black Prince during his lifetime. He's known as Edward of Woodstock from the palace where he was born. That nickname comes later in the 16th century. But yes, the power of this is that Edward has a lot of sons. They all behave themselves and the oldest, Edward of Woodstock, who we'll call the Black Prince because that's how he's known, he's being groomed for power from the beginning. So there is stability and real closeness and a sense of shared identity, although without wanting to do

• 13:13Speaker 02

  a spoiler alert later on, it's going to go a bit wrong. But in the early stages, early to middle stages, it's the dynamic duo.

• 13:22Dan Snow?

  Well, listen, Michael, of course it goes wrong. This is the Plantagenet family we're talking about here. Come on, we all know what we're going to get. Just before the Battle of Slough, really, let's just go back slightly. Edward III has embarked on what people roughly call the Hundred Years' War. It goes on for longer than a hundred years. Very, very briefly, Edward is asserting his right to be King of France after the cataclysm that overtakes France's ruling family. Part of this is saying, you know, England's back, that we're back. His son would have been excited by this, young Edward. I mean, he'd wanted, this was his throne in the future too.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Totally. It is very exciting. Of course, we need to remember that Edward is making his claim through his mother, who he has pushed into exile, but nevertheless, he's making a claim from her. That claim originally existed from thirteen twenty-eight, when the succession dispute in France was opened. The interesting thing is, it's left on one side, and the fact that Edward chooses to kind of activate it in thirteen thirty-seven is because he's basically tired of being bossed around by the French, both in Gascany, where he has to render homage, and also French interference in Scotland. So he takes the initiative. And for someone like the Black Prince, that would have been pretty exciting. And absolutely, he's going to be a big part of the story.

• 14:40Dan Snow?

  And the fact that Edward does have such a healthy, lusty young son, in stunning contrast to the Capetians in France, that must have given him a spring in his step. In fact, he's got all these sons. It's looking feckoned on this side of the channel.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  I like it. And of course, that's how medieval people saw things, that if you were young and lusty from a feckoned point of view, you're also up for the fight. So there is a sense of dynamism and optimism here around the whole developing family that's Edward III and his wife are creating.

• 15:12Dan Snow?

  Before the Black Prince hits the battlefield itself, can you tell me quickly about the creating in the Duke of Cornwall? People might have had the Duchy of Cornwall, which remains a sort of royal, a large private estate, as I understand it, of the heir to throne here in Britain. That's established for the Black Prince, isn't it?

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's the first Duke of Cornwall. He's also made Earl of Chester. He's got three sources of income: Cornwall, Cheshire, and then he's made Prince of Wales. The important thing to emphasise here is the Duchy of Cornwall, created for him, is not just in Cornwall, but also includes lands and residences all over the country. So his main residence, Burghamstird, his palace at Cannington, as well as a favourite Cornish residence of his, Restormall, they're all part of a big affinity. And Cheshire is also important because it's independent, it's a county palatine, it

• 16:10Speaker 02

  has its own parliamentary assembly. And Cheshiremen are notoriously rough and tough, rather like the Gaskins, who the Prince will get to know later on. So with Cornwall, with Cheshire, we're seeing areas of revenue, but we're also seeing areas that the Prince will retain from when he starts fighting and exercising independent command in his own right. So First Duke, yes, and it's a big deal.

• 16:36Dan Snow?

  Okay, so let's get on the way in the thirteen forties. Whilst still a teenager, his father makes him a member of the Order of the Garter, which is the famous Chevalier Order that exists again to this day. So lots of interesting sort of heraldic things going on with Castle Long Shadow. When does the Black Prince, when do you think he first experiences the battlefield?

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Well, it's a very powerful initiation. It's the Battle of Cressy in thirteen forty six. The Prince is sixteen years old. On the campaign that leads up to the battle, he's given the honour position in the army, commanding the vanguard. And once again, he has experienced advisers all around him, but he's leading from the front. And at the battle, it's a double edged complement and welcome to tough love Plantagenet style because Edward III gives his son the honour position. And I'm not quite sure, Dan, how much he told him of the full plan, but he's also making his son and the vanguard a target.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  If we look at the topography of the battle, Edward's scouted out this site in advance and he knows that French cavalry is going to come up towards the English army. There is an agricultural ditch, so they'll be funneled into an area where the Prince's division is. They'll see his banner, they'll go for him. And Edward knows that by making his son a target, he has the possibility of

• 18:09Speaker 02

  Getting a huge tactical advantage, but there's also a considerable element of risk. And we know famously that the prince is concussed, probably falls down and then picks himself up. His standard bearer, which is the person holding the standard is a couple of feet away, is knocked over. The French get the standard. So the French have broken in through the main line into the prince's bodyguard and the prince himself is close to being killed. And a breathless messenger comes to Edward III and says, quick, do something or you'll lose your son. And according to Jean Frassa, the king just says, let him win his spurs. Well, that would send us to therapists for 20 years, wouldn't it? But

• 18:54Speaker 02

  what I love is after making this great soundbite, the kingdom kind of thinks, what have I done? And according to another source, he then quietly said, look, send 40 of my best knights to support my son. So tough love, but also a loving father. I think it's a great moment. And the prince does hang on there. He does survive. And it's an extraordinary initiation into combat that wins him his spurs and wins him fame all across Europe.

• 19:22Dan Snow?

  I never realised that before, Michael. So one of the greatest sayings of English medieval history. So Edward III did well there. He got this reputation for being sort of the ultimate tough love dad, letting his boy win his spurs. But also he did quietly send off a hit squad to SWAT team to make sure their son did in fact make it through. How interesting.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love that.

• 19:40Dan Snow?

  Well, there you go. Never trust a medieval king. Cressy, obviously famous as well. The French knights launch wave after wave of assaults. They are destroyed by the English and Welsh longbows. It becomes one of these grossly unequal battles at the Hundred Years' War. Well, the English like to remember during the Hundred Years' War. There are a few the other way around as well, which we don't remember. And so hugely not only a significant for the Black Prince, but significant for the course of the war up to that point.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Massively so. This deployment of the longbow within the battle line, previously, the missile bearing troops kind of came out at the beginning, then got out of the way, took years to perfect because the longbow is a deadly weapon, but also the bowman would be lightly armoured. So if there are a series of cavalry attacks, if you're not coordinating it properly, the French will take a hit, they'll take casualties, but they'll punch through the line when the bowmen are. So it required a lot of practice, but a formation was found that worked and it led to a devastating advantage. I think there are a whole host

• 20:50Speaker 02

  of factors here. Decisive generalship because the French king had the misfortune to see the battle starting before he'd even got to where the army was. There was a huge traffic jam, a gridlock. Don't we know about these roadworks? Well, the French king found out that the Count of Alonson was preparing to start the battle without him and just basically said, okay, go ahead. So we have measured strong leadership on the English side, a lot of tactical awareness and of course this new disposition using the power of the longbow. And on the French side, it's chaotic, adrenaline fuelled rushing into action. So it's a huge, devastating defeat for France.

• 21:36Dan Snow?

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  In a world where swords were sharp.

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• 25:05Dan Snow?

  The flower of French nobility, I feel like I've said this many times on the podcast, but there must be lots of flowers of French nobility because it's always said that they are lying dead on the field of Cressy. The king lucky to escape, the king of Bohemia, the blind king of Bohemia dead as well.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, big influence on the Black Prince. And this was because, again, we're entering this strange world of chivalry, this parallel universe where the king of Bohemia, our great personal friend of the French king, losing sight in both his eyes. He says to his retinue that he wants to basically die fighting and they tether their horses together. They don't abandon him and say, get on with it, you silly old fool. But they all die together when the prince not only witnesses the body of the blind king of Bohemia, Jean Luxembourg, but also sees those horses tethered together. He's deeply moved because in a way, that is the embodiment of chivalry.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  And a famous comment that was made to Simon de Montfort when he, before the Battle of Esham, he said to one of his companions, "The bridge is open, you can get out of here. There'll be no dishonor." And the companion simply said, "No, Simon, we have drunk from the same cup." And this is the abiding sense of loyalty that chivalry could create. And the prince decided to emulate. So he adopts the ostrich feather. One sees that on his tomb in Canterbury, which was the king of Bohemian's own emblem as a reminder of that principle.

• 26:36Dan Snow?

  And remains the emblem of the Prince of Wales to this day.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  To this very day. And that's where it comes from. Pretty splendid stuff.

• 26:44Dan Snow?

  Splendid stuff. The English go on to take Calais as a result of the battle. It's a pretty brutal siege, but a hugely important fortress on the Channel coast.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, something I'd like to say because when the prince is nearly killed at Cressy, that's fairly well known. But what isn't well known, that the prince very nearly dies during the siege, he contracts a serious illness. And partway through the siege, he's in a hospital that's patrons of the Count of Flanders and they're allies. But he's in a hospital and his father has left the siege as well, because it looks very bad, prognosis looks very bad. But the prince is nursed back to health and then returns to the siege. And these two events so close together, it's very, very interesting. The prince himself believes that he was being

• 27:32Speaker 02

  protected by God in battle, that he had divine protection. This wasn't formulaic. He deeply believed that. And Archbishop John Stratford, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who knew the prince well, in his will the following year, at the time that Order of Garge was being created, you know, he left silver spoons to Sansa. Sansa, the gift he leaves to the Black Prince is a silver resurrection scene. In other words, he knows that the prince believes that he is destined, protected by God, to step out and do great things.

• 28:06Dan Snow?

  Yes, always first warning signs is when you start to believe you are an agent of providence.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Very much so. This is going to be the triumph and tragedy theme.

• 28:15Dan Snow?

  I tell you, if I was a medieval king, I wouldn't let my children anywhere near the siege, the siege trenches. They're clearly just feces-filled plague pits. Think about the number of people that died in those miserable sieges.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Well, indeed. And we've got the Black Death about to hit our story as well, so.

• 28:32Dan Snow?

  Yes, we do. In fact, we got the Black Death the following year hits the story. On that, Edward III lost a daughter, I think, didn't he? We say the Black Death was no respecter of status or of surname. On the whole, did the royal family, did senior aristocrats have a bit of a better chance of surviving, access to safer food and cleaner water? And were they doing a bit of social distancing? I mean, how did the Black Prince make it through the horror that the 50% mortality of the Black Death?

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, he lost a sister that he was very close to. She was actually sent off to marry a man we're going to hear more about, and this was the son and heir of the King of Castile. She didn't make it because the ship stopped off at Bordeaux. The mayor warned them that a terrible plague was already afflicting the city. It hadn't arrived in England yet. They didn't heed that warning, and that was their big mistake. And so the whole contingent died in pretty horrific fashion. When the plague did reach England, there were attempts at social distancing and regulating, and more members of the royal family died. The prince lost a young brother,

• 29:46Speaker 02

  William, and the plague, of course, would come back. But the thing I like is that it was in desperate circumstances, a sort of keep calm and carry on. There's that Christmas gambling session where the prince, while this plague is raging all around them, and of course, they will found the Order of the Garter, both of them together in the middle of the plague, which is extraordinary, because the power of this chivalrous order is that it's intercessionary prayer, because a lot of people are going to die and not be able to confess their sins to a priest. So what battlefield soldiers and plague victims have in common is this fear of not just dying horribly, but then being stuck after your death in purgatory, where you're

• 30:31Speaker 02

  tormented by demons and prodded with great iron tongs. So they take this very seriously, and the creation of the Order of the Garter is a sign of that. But also, the prince lost a hundred and four quid in one evening gambling with his dad. So I think there was a kind of live today, die tomorrow aspect as well going on. And so it's a mixture of studded nonchalance and also deep awareness of how terrible this was.

• 31:00Dan Snow?

  So were we saying it's sort of luck they survive, or did they say, right, no one come near me for two weeks?

• 31:08Speaker 02

  Well, the Pope practised a form of social distancing which was quite extraordinary. He had two huge fires lit on either side of the papal throne in Avignon. Up to a point, I mean, the plague was rampaging everywhere. So, and medical ideas were way behind the reality. So, yes, I think there would be a sense of providence, but of course, the plague would keep coming back and the prince would lose people close to him, friends, counsellors, in the next bout of plague in 1360 and then again in 1369. But yes, an aspect of this kind of reinforcing the idea of divine providence is being spared

• 31:53Speaker 02

  from the plague might add to that spiritual identity, or we could say megalomania, we're being a bit more unkind.

• 32:00Dan Snow?

  Oh, I see, that's a good point. So he's had a couple of near misses now, he must be feeling pretty...

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, he has, yeah.

• 32:05Dan Snow?

  Yeah, okay, worrying. Taking me back to France, the Hundred Years' War is famously start-stop, but he is prominent in several more sort of chapters of it, isn't he?

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, he gets his own independent command in 1355. He goes to his dad straight away and special pleading and his, interestingly, Edouard III hesitates for a while, he thinks, hmm, but then agrees. So, the prince gets his own command as lieutenant in Gascony, leads an absolutely brutal raid across the south of France, effectively from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean, burning and pillaging. At Carcassonne, he occupies the merchant section of the town, the richest section of the town. They offer him a lot of money not to burn it, but he's out to please his father.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  And by not getting the money, but by burning it, he's showing the whole of France that the King of France, that's John II, and his lieutenant, the Count of Armanac, can't protect their own people. If you're fighting to say, well, actually, my claim's better, you're going around being absolutely brutal because by damaging the agrarian economy, you're impeding the revenue connection. So the war effort is damaged. And you're also saying, look, our claim is better because your guys can't look after you. So it's shrewd stuff, although very, very brutal. And the following year is the big one. There's a big plan to converge on the French king, Jean the Second. Edward the Third will take an army to Calais, another

• 33:40Speaker 02

  major noble, Mahenio Grossman, will come in from Brittany, and the Black Prince will come up from Gascony. But this great plan goes totally pear shaped. And so the prince marches to the centre of France, to the Loire, and finds that no one else is there.

• 33:55Dan Snow?

  Ah, yes. The old multi-prong attack, when you find out you're the only prong. How many times in military history have we seen that, poor things?

• 34:02Speaker 02

  You're so right. Not good. And the interesting thing is that Edward the Third has decided he's not going to go to Calais, but that information has not reached his son. Henuo Grossman, who is in Brittany, can't get across the Loire, there's bad flooding. And sadly, the French, who've been very apathetic, they're not very keen on Jean the Second, who's been dealing with insurrection in Normandy. But sadly, the thought of wiping out the Black Prince galvanises everybody. And there's a total change of mood. And a big army is gathered with the sole purpose of crushing the Black Prince. So it's getting worse and worse. And just outside Poitiers, in September thirteen fifty six, I should

• 34:46Speaker 02

  say at this stage that the prince's army, we often describe it as an English army, it's Anglo-Gascón. And the Gascóns are a very important part of his army.

• 34:55Dan Snow?

  And Gascony is southwest France.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  Yes, it's southwest France. And they're tough, they're independently minded, and they like the prince. So he's got a strong army, but it's badly outnumbered. And famously, because the prince gets the tactics right, the French decide to use cavalry on the flanks but fight on foot, they are fine tuning their approach. But the first part of the battle goes very well, but the army, Prince's army is absolutely knackered. And then they see this whole new division appearing of fresh troops. And someone, a bit like Cousin Westmoreland, famously is supposed to have said, oh my God, more troops. Someone does say the same thing. It's all looking very bad, but the prince, it's an

• 35:39Speaker 02

  extraordinary moment, a calm in the eye of the storm. He prays out loud and suddenly there's a flash of inspiration. They devise a totally crazy spontaneous plan where they send a small force of mounted troops around to attack from the rear. And then the whole army, normally the English dismount and the French attack them with cavalry. And this time, the French are coming up on foot and the order is given for the entire army, including Bowman, to mount up and charge straight to the French king. It's absolutely crazy. It's basically putting your entire fortune on one spin of the wheel at Vegas. But I think the mood of the army, suddenly people get that this is going to be the last chance

• 36:23Speaker 02

  saloon and everyone is up for it. So this small force comes in at the rear and then the cavalry attack hits the French line with such force that Jean the Second, the King of France and his bodyguard are not clean out of the battle line into an adjacent meadow. And even then, the English, adrenaline fueled as they are, outnumbered by about 10 to one, but the French are in a state of shock. So it's the most extraordinary victory. And I don't think, much as military historians love studying weapons and tactical analysis and this, that and the other, I think this battle is outside the comfort zone, really.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  And of course, once again, it fuels this idea from the prince that divine protection wins them the battle.

• 37:10Dan Snow?

  It is an astonishing underdog victory. He's in the heart of it.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we capture the French king as well. That's the big one.

• 37:18Dan Snow?

  Well, indeed. King John, he was taken to London, wasn't he? I always thought he actually seemed to prefer being in London to Paris. He's always won my sympathies for that reason.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, he doesn't get on very well with his own ability. And when he's in London, he can be the kind of martyred hero with everyone actually saying, he wasn't so bad.

• 37:37Dan Snow?

  Yeah, just he's got his feet up in London. But we should say the Black Prince is absolutely at the heart. He's fighting in the front line. He's leading by example. I mean, he's the the picture of a martial medieval prince. And we talked about his massive raid, burning, destroying crops, torching things, brutality, sexual assault. Now we're talking about this battle. Is he any different from his forbears, you know, from his different cousins several times removed Richard the Lionheart, or Henry the Second, or his father Edward the Third? Is there something? I mean, I remember when my dad was reading me kind of outdated 19th century history books, the Black Prince was sort of, seemed to occupy quite a special place in that Victorian historical imagination. Was he better, different, more pious? How

• 38:21Dan Snow?

  should we kind of evaluate him as a, now that he's in his twenties, as a warrior, as a leader, as a man?

• 38:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, good question. I think in some respects, he's very much a man and a warrior of his times. And his brutal raids, it's how his father was conducting, fighting both with the Scots and also in the early stages of the Hundred Years' War. People were pious in the Middle Ages, but the Black Prince's piety was very deep. And what tends to get lost, I think, the first thing that tends to get lost is that he had a very mischievous sense of humour. He was very charismatic and very winning. And one can find this in some chronicle sources, particularly more obscure French chronicle sources, how mischievously humorous he was. And that is a very engaging quality. And I'll give you one example. So

• 39:11Speaker 02

  when he's leading this big expedition, his first independent command, and the Welshmen are coming in, the Cheshiremen, the mercenaries are joining from all over Europe. And the prince likes his bling, you know, he likes to show off strutted stuff. And some of the soldiers are saying, who's this fop? They're sort of wondering about it. And the prince gets to hear about this and he draws his entire Army up and then a great ceremony knights is personal tailor. And so he can take the piss out of himself and the army love it. He tagly turns it around by doing that. And this is where he is very winning.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  He understands chivalry, but at the same time, this mischievous humour really is an icebreaker and forges some very powerful loyalties. So he's a real personality.

• 40:02Dan Snow?

  Is he worse? Can we say that he was sort of more violent and cruel? He's got a, he's obviously got a cheeky side, but in these chevaux chay, is there something particularly ferocious about them or is it, is it just pretty standard fare for the time?

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Well, the biggest blot on his discussion, if I can use that phrase, is we're going to get on to later on, the sack of Limoges in thirteen seventy. And I argue very strongly in my book, my biography of the Black Prince, that that really didn't happen. And as that particular episode is reviewed, it back projects onto the whole of his career, which I think comes across in a much more favorable light.

• 40:42Dan Snow?

  You're listening to Dan Snow's History. Don't go anywhere, there's more to come.

• 40:51Speaker 01

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• 41:40Dan Snow?

  In a world where swords were sharp.

• 41:43Speaker 04

  And hygiene was actually probably better than you think it is. Two fearless historians.

• 41:49Dan Snow?

  Me, Matt Lewis.

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  And me, Dr Eleanor Yanaga. Dive headfirst into the mud, blood and very strange customs of the Middle Ages.

• 41:58Dan Snow?

  So for plagues, crusades and Viking raids and plenty of other things that don't rhyme. Subscribe to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts.

• 42:17Dan Snow?

  Just quickly, can I ask you another question? It's often said that England had never any chance of winning the Hundred Years' War. It's a complete bonkers idea that England could conquer France, much richer and more populous. But if you'd been there at the end of the Battle of Poitiers, King John of France is a captive of the English. The French are at each other's throats. Do you think Edward III thought at that point, I think I might just pull this off? Or was it always, we're just going to go on raiding and attacking France? I don't actually genuinely think I'm going to be crowned in a Roman cathedral. I'm not going to be given the holy ointment of Clovis or whatever it is. I mean, where are we now, do you think, after this battle?

• 42:53Speaker 02

  Well, there's another big campaign in 1359 to 60, and that is very much in Edward's mind. He's thinking about that because they do head to France. What happens is a compromise where by the peace treaty of Brettoni in 1360, and this is very interesting, Edward III renounces his claim in return for getting Accutane, that's a very enlarged gascony in full sovereignty. So that's the best. We won't do better than that in the 14th century. So that is a win. And the prince becomes outright ruler of Accutane. He doesn't have to bend the knee and do homage. And that was extraordinary.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  But the problem was that it wouldn't last. But while it did last, it looked very good indeed. Things went wrong when we intervened in Spain to support Pedro. The cruel, who was, as his name suggests, a total psychopath. And the prince was very reluctant to do this, was kind of pushed into it by his father. Edward the Third saw the strategic advantage of a line with Castile. The prince was aware, however, that this guy he was helping had been excommunicated twice, probably murdered his wife, murdered his half brother during a banquet and then left a corpse on the floor. And his last act before he showed up at Bordeaux to plead for help from the prince

• 44:23Speaker 02

  was to stab to death the Archbishop of Santiago de Compostela in one of the sacred pilgrimage sites on consecrated ground. So I don't think the prince was very excited. And although he wins this battle of La Hera, it all goes wrong because the counterclaim escapes, gets back on the throne and now Castile is an enemy. And the French become confident enough to resume the war. So I think for a brief period, it was a win in that through military prowess, we got a very advantageous settlement. It's just we weren't able to keep it.

• 44:59Dan Snow?

  Yeah, how interesting. So he's, the Black Prince is sort of ruling in, in South East France, almost in his own right. And he crossed the Pyrenees and expends all that blood and treasure. Like Napoleon Bonaparte, he had his own Spanish ulcer as well.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  Yep, absolutely.

• 45:12Dan Snow?

  And now we've got the French emboldened by that weakness and the Hundred Years' War effectively restarts.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Yes, and the prince, I argue, is not supported fully by his father. His father is more concerned about Calais and the north of France. But crucially, the prince also becomes ill, not, I believe, through dysentery, although some of the soldiers in his army succumbed to dysentery in Spain. But by the autumn of thirteen sixty eight, the prince becomes ill. It's a long illness. My own belief is that it's rectal cancer. So he has periods of extreme weakness where he's stretched about and then he makes a partial recovery. It's very interesting that the behaviour of some Gascon nobles is almost like a kind of health check because when

• 46:00Speaker 02

  The prince is very ill, they're saying to the Valois king, Charles the Fifth, actually, I think I'll join you, you know, maybe pay me a bit of money. Then they hear the prince is recovering and they say, actually, just hold on a moment. So it's so much still his personality, but he is waning in terms of health and the military position, Charles the Fifth has built up a good financial reserve, something the prince was not very good at. As you said, he spends a lot of money going up to Spain and coming back again. The position starts hemorrhaging and there are a lot of defections and that will get us on to Limoges.

• 46:39Dan Snow?

  Also, over the Thirteenth beginning to knock on a bit in the north, isn't he? He has a reasonably long decline.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  Sadly, yes, we've got a decline of king for one reason and a decline of his son also.

• 46:52Dan Snow?

  Such an important reminder of the centrality in this period of leadership, of a vital vigorous leadership.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  Totally, and that's waning.

• 47:01Dan Snow?

  Oh, dear, oh dear. Right, so let's get to Limoges. Tell me what leads up to this famous siege.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Well, Limoges is a city that has been loyal to the prince and then Jean Frossard, our great source for the 14th century phase of the Hundred Years' War, goes to town. And Frossard's agenda is that he's met the prince and we should add at this point that he's also met the prince's very beautiful wife, Joan of Cansa. The prince marries for love and so by 1360, he's not only a war hero, but he's then seeing the beautiful Joan, formerly married the following year. And they're a power couple, they have a magnificent court, but Frossard starts building up this picture then as a fallen hero, that the prince

• 47:51Speaker 02

  gets corrupted by his own incredible reputation. And Limoges is where Frossard starts really nailing this in. So according to Frossard.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  The prince is waning in strength and furious that this town has defected, so decides to make an example of them. And there's a short siege and then a massacre of several thousand innocent French civilians as a terrible example. And if we buy that as true, it is very much a flaw. I mean, you can justify it, you can say that if you break your oath, you are exempted from the normal laws of war, but it's a nasty incident. But I argue very strongly it didn't happen like that at all, because going back to what I've been saying about divine protection, the prince after the Spanish expedition thought, why am I ill? Why is the war going wrong?

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Because I have sinned, we have sinned in supporting this murderous psychopath, Pedro the Cruel, and now we've lost God's favour. So everything is about trying to win that favour back. And the prince actually negotiates for clemency to be shown towards towns or cities that through that they aren't being backed militarily, they think of going over to the French. But I argue that it's a slur, propaganda slur. And I think the one point I would make here is that when the prince does die in thirteen seventy six, a year before his father, the French sold a solemn memorial mass for him. They hold a requiem mass, it's never done for anyone else on the English side.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  And a Valois chronicler says, you may think this is very strange that we're doing this for a mortal enemy, but he represented something far greater. The aspiration, the model of knighthood that we all aspire to. Well, if he'd just murdered thousands of innocent civilians, I don't think that was going to happen. So I've argued very strongly that we need to see the prince in a different light.

• 49:56Dan Snow?

  So just quickly on Limoges, the town surrenders to the French. He retakes it. His miners demolish a large piece of wall and the town is then stormed. Are we arguing that that's unfortunately what happens when towns are stormed? And it wasn't a case of particular exemplary violence that he's been charged with in the past?

• 50:16Speaker 02

  Well, I use quite a lot of new documentary material. So Limoges was divided up into two parts. The cité, which was a poorer part controlled by the bishop, and the château, which was the richer merchant quarters. The château part had always stayed lower to the prince. The cité had been told by the bishop, who was a slippery character, that the prince has actually died. And when the prince showed up, although his army was actually being commanded by his brother John of Gournes, they opened the gates. They did a deal with the English and raised a banner as the signal and then opened the gates. There was a mining attack to divert the French garrison. And then the gates were opened.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  And what actually happened, I've reconstructed, is that it was the French that massacred the people who had done that. So it was totally different. And the commander, who had performed extremely well, according to all the chronicles, was dismissed by Charles V. All his lands were taken away from him and he died in poverty. So my argument and my perception of that siege is very different.

• 51:24Dan Snow?

  Well, listen, I'm here for blaming the French for Limoges, so you've convinced me.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 51:32Dan Snow?

  Chapter and verse.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  That's what I want to hear, Dan.

• 51:34Dan Snow?

  Although it's such an interesting period, the 1370s, isn't it? Because, well, we have the siege is 1370 and we get the very unusual, folks. We have an English naval defeat of La Rochelle.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Catastrophic, yeah.

• 51:50Dan Snow?

  Which makes communications through England and Aquitaine harder. And then we have this, the Black Prince's oldest son dies. He's dying, his father is dying, all at the same time, all in this four or five year period. It's just grim.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  I know. And often people don't realise this, he had two sons and the older Edward of Ongalem dies in thirteen seventy, I suspect of plague as well. Of course, leaving the younger one, Richard of Bordeaux, who will become a very unsuccessful king, Richard the Second.

• 52:22Dan Snow?

  Absolute chump.

• 52:24Speaker 02

  Absolutely. But yes, everyone is waning. This terrible naval defeat is because we backed the wrong side in the Castilian civil war. Sir Enrique, who chucks Pedro, the psychopathic ruler, off the throne. He is at our throats with a vengeance and so French and Castilian fleet hammers us outside La Rochelle. The prince wants to join but is too sick. The king wants to join but isn't up for it. It's all going terribly wrong down.

• 52:58Dan Snow?

  Well, this Spanish intervention is just poisons the entire.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  Poisons it, totally.

• 53:03Dan Snow?

  Crazy. So the young prince, Edward the Third's grandson, Edward the Black Prince's son, dies in thirteen seventy. And then the Black Prince returns to England in thirteen seventy one. And is he coming back to die? I mean, is this?

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Well, the thing is, he, again, he has these periods where he's terribly ill and everyone's expecting him to die. And then he rallies and so it goes on. But he joins the lay fraternity connected to Saint Albans, where the abbot of Saint Albans had also suffered serious illness and recurrent illness. But he's almost kind of on standby to die, but hangs on in there. And he manages to last right through to the time of the Good Parliament in thirteen seventy six. And then he finally fades. And there's tension at this stage between father and son because his father had kept a court, appeal court, open in. Westminster that it undermined the prince in Accutane.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  And the prince had become very fed up with this to the extent that when when his father tried to form an alliance with another one of these characters, you've got Pedro the cruel, total psychopath, and Charles the bad, who's nearly as bad as Pedro the cruel. And the prince is very unhappy that he had to associate with either of them. And he basically says to his father, I'm not going to authenticate this agreement. He had to authenticate it because some of the lands involved were his. And he actually tells his father, I'm tired of doing things that compromise my honour. So I think it was a rather frosty period between father and son. Of course, Edward the Third was running after this attractive

• 54:45Speaker 02

  young, originally a lady-in-waiting of his wife, Alice Perez, and making rather an idiot of himself. And the prince genuinely believed Alice Perez had put him under a spell. Witchcraft was the reason his father had just changed for the worse. But whatever one makes of that, it's all gone terribly wrong. Right at the end, and very movingly, Edward the Third says, look, the black prince was at this palace in Cannington, he says, come to Westminster so I can nurse you personally. Prince agrees as a reconciliation and crucially, the king pays off the prince's debts, which was rather important because the prince was always running short of money. But right at the end, they make up, which I like because

• 55:29Speaker 02

  it went wrong, but it was fundamentally a very positive relationship. But of course, the king himself would die a year later, leaving the young Richard the Second to stumble around.

• 55:43Dan Snow?

  Just alienating everybody.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, yes.

• 55:46Dan Snow?

  Yeah, the military genes all went through John of Gaunt to that Henry the Fourth, didn't they?

• 55:50Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 55:51Dan Snow?

  Does he matter? Is it one of those ones that he it would have mattered if he'd lived and like Henry the Fifth, if he'd lived and the outcome of the Hundred Years' War might have been different? But as it was, does he leave an imprint on subsequent history?

• 56:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, a huge imprint. Firstly, if he'd retained his health, got his spending a bit more under control, I think you'd Made a very good king, but the crucial thing in a way is that by dying when he did, and when you go to his tomb, I think this is what's so fascinating, that Edward III's memorial in Westminster Abbey shows the king from a death mask. So you can see the paralysis after the stroke of 1370, and he's looking his age. But when you pay tribute to the Black Prince, although he has a memento mori that says basically, watch out, what I have become, you will also suffer the same fate. But of course, being the Black Prince, he's also

• 56:45Speaker 02

  had himself set out, and this was made very clear in his will, in his prime. So what you see is a prince of about 1362, having just married the extremely attractive Joan of Kent, and at the summit of his power. So we have, up to a point, justifiably, an idealized version, and that idealized version puts him above all the stuff that went wrong. And we can always look up to him and say, well, that was a bit special. And I would argue, and I have argued in my book, that there was enough truth in that to pull him out of his time and make him an exemplar of something in our history that we can be rightly proud of.

• 57:27Dan Snow?

  That's a place to end. Thank you very much, Dr. Michael Jones. Tell everyone what the book is called.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  Yep. So the book's called The Black Prince. A big pleasure to write it.

• 57:37Dan Snow?

  Well, it was an enormous pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining.

• 57:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you very much, Dan. It's been great spending time with you.

• 57:48Dan Snow?

  Well, folks, thank you very much for listening. The Black Prince remains, for reasons we've just heard, one of the most compelling figures of medieval England. A warrior, a commander of great charisma, a man who fought against the odds and triumphed, a sort of prince who promised a golden age, but that never quite came to pass. As you've just heard, he died in 1376. He was 45 years old, so really in the absolute prime of life, it must be said. His father died a year later and was succeeded by Richard, the Black Prince's 10-year-old son. And yet another good old fashioned medieval era of turbulence and contested crowns was about to begin. And you can hear all about that on a podcast I did with Helen Castor that went out at the end of October. So please check that out

• 58:32Dan Snow?

  if you want to find out the next chapter of the story. As I said at the start, the Black Prince's tomb lies in Canterbury Cathedral. You can go and see it. That armoured effigy is one of the finest, most extraordinary objects, I think, from the 14th century that we've still got. And it's a symbol of an England that stood for a very brief moment, I think, at the height of its medieval power. Thank you so much for listening, folks. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure you like and subscribe, of course. And please send your new episode ideas to the email in the show notes. Goodbye for now.

• 59:12Speaker 01

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• 1:00:03Dan Snow?

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