Taylor Rooks & Joy Taylor: Two Personal on The Pivot, Shedding the sports talk to tackle hot button topics and discuss issues personal to them by sharing life experiences and answering the questions everyone wants to know

Taylor Rooks & Joy Taylor: Two Personal on The Pivot, Shedding the sports talk to tackle hot button topics and discuss issues personal to them by sharing life experiences and answering the questions everyone wants to know! In the ever-evolving world of sports media, Taylor Rooks and Joy Taylor continue to turn heads and establish themselves as rising stars in a competitive media space of sports and entertainment. Whether it is co-hosting shows, interviewing A-list athletes and celebrities, delivering sideline updates during games and headlining studio shows, the duo has independently created a niche as some of the most respected in the business. But now, they are teaming up together for a new podcast, Two Personal, a weekly series going beyond what viewers see on television, diving deep into the lives of them as close friends and media trailblazers. With equal parts humor and wisdom, they talk culture and social issues while fearlessly exploring complex topics like relationships and dating, body image, racism, sexism, mental health and more. Sitting with Ryan, Channing and Fred, Joy and Taylor share their vision behind the podcast, the barriers they are trying to break and why they are comfortable being unapologetic in their own voice with sensitive topics and public pushback. Channing has known Joy for over 20 years after playing along side her Hall of Fame brother, Jason Taylor and how exposure to his career helped shape her own journey in sports. As the current co-host of “Speak” and veteran Fox Sports personality, Joy opens up about how her perspective being shaped through her experiences, pointing to the ways in which audiences interact with her content. Taylor’s authenticity in interviews has made her one of the industry’s best, and she mentions how the choosing her words carefully enables people to let guard down and open up. Whether it is Bleacher Report, Turner Sports or Thursday Night Football, Rooks’ presence can be felt on any panel or sideline as a premiere talent, but that doesn’t erase her from pushback and public scrutiny. Working in broadcast media, Ryan understands the expectations that come with being on tv and being viewed certain ways but not nearly the struggles Joy and Taylor face as females in sports as the two speak very candidly on the frustrations of viewers focusing more on their appearance and clothing than their sports commentary, often contriving falsities about their personal lives based on the work they do. Another hot topic talked about amongst the group was their varying opinions on relationships and objectifying women in general. Joy and Channing talk about the preference of having a guy who has female friends with Ryan and Fred weighing in their thoughts while Taylor later expands the conversation to the media frenzy of public relationships. Debunking many mistruths and internet inaccuracies, Joy and Taylor express frustrations with public assumptions and explain why it’s sometimes difficult to be a respected female working in the sports world and have developed tough skin to rise above the noise. Both Taylor and Joy have worn many hats in their careers so far, but this candid podcast has shined a different light on them as people, revealing a side never seen before. New Pivot episodes drop on Tuesdays at 12 p.m. ET and Fridays at 3:30 p.m ET on YouTube, with audio available on all streaming platforms including Apple, Spotify and Amazon. Be sure to check out Two Personal every Wednesday on YouTube and follow on IG @twopersonalshow! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest, or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 0:34Channing Crowder?

  Goodness gracious. Come on. Always a pleasure.

• 0:39Ryan Clark?

  You gotta teach me how to walk.

• 0:40Channing Crowder?

  My guy.

• 0:41Ryan Clark?

  You gotta teach me how to walk. Good, good. Joy, based on the way my body comp is put together, I probably shouldn't wear a One Piece pantsuit.

• 0:51Speaker 03

  Listen, the old heads used to come out in some, some One Piece pantsuits now, pretty unapologetically.

• 0:57Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, but my lore have ain't really...

• 1:01Channing Crowder?

  He built like a stand-up ant.

• 1:05Speaker 03

  Okay, okay, I hear you.

• 1:07Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, so...

• 1:08Speaker 03

  Am I really drawing a little too much attention?

• 1:10Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:11Channing Crowder?

  So you walk into the neck of the one...

• 1:13Speaker 03

  It's a whole... Wait, yeah, you want to pull it? I feel like my course is too long for those, but you look bum. You look bum.

• 1:45Ryan Clark?

  Well, guys, welcome. Taylor Rooks and Joy Taylor, the hosts of Too Personal. We're excited to have you. Joy, we've been trying to get you on the show for a while. We had Taylor on the show in our first year. Thank you so much for supporting. Then it was a great show. Excited to talk to you guys about some things individually, but also how you guys came together and decided that this was the right time to do this. And I guess that's my first question, and I'll start with you, Joy. Both of you guys have so much going on individually. And you've been friends, which I'll say y'all met at like an NABJ party six or seven years ago. What made now the perfect time to start your show together?

• 2:26Speaker 03

  Well, we've been talking about it for a while, but I think Taylor and I recently, you know, took on some more responsibilities, new responsibilities in our career. It also felt like we had reached a point in our career where we felt comfortable taking on a new venture. And also, we put a lot of thought and effort into it. We don't really just do things. I mean, you guys have a whole production here. You're not just throwing this out there, which is fine if that's what people do also. But that's just not how we move. So really, we knew we were going to put it into a place where we were supported. We had a team to help us. We knew what we wanted to do, so it was something that we felt like we could take on.

• 3:05Speaker 04

  Yeah. We were very ready to show ourselves fully. And I don't know that we have always been afforded that luxury to talk about things outside of what people know us as. And I really saw this as just a way to continue to evolve. I think that when you get into the business, or really any business, you get tricked into thinking the way to stay successful is to keep doing the same things that you were doing. But if you look at any other thing, they stay successful because they were constantly evolving and changing. And I think for me, and I think for Joy too, this is like a natural step of the evolution of what we want to be in the media space and what we want to be seen as, as people. It can't just be like sports all the time, because we aren't sports all the time.

• 3:49Speaker 04

  Like, we have talks about everything. We have thoughts and feelings and lots of opinions about everything. And it didn't always feel like there was a place to be able to tell those things and show those things. And Too Personal was just birthed from that need and that want to. Not even just like be more, but show more too.

• 4:06Channing Crowder?

  And y'all do a great job. And I take it out. Was there any pushback? Because like you said, both of y'all are, unless like us, we're employed by other people. When y'all did it, did y'all have to consult? Was there any pushback from any other employers when y'all got into this venture?

• 4:21Speaker 04

  Luckily, on my side, no. I think that they understood I wanted to do something like that was for women. I wanted to do something that was about talking about things that were important to me, and they were OK with it. Of course, they said, OK, this, you better still be able to travel, do your interviews, do everything. But it was like, as long as you can fit it into the ecosystem what we have, you're good. So I'm very thankful that they allowed me to.

• 4:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I had the exact same experience. I mean, I'm at the same place every single day.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  People watch and I'm there. So, nothing has changed. But they were very supportive of it. Again, it's not, it's not sports at all. So, it's a completely different space. And again, Taylor and I have had long careers where we've established what we are in the sports space and this was a new, a new venture. And anyone who knows or works with us knows us on some personal level as well. So, they knew what we were going to do, so.

• 5:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's also so interesting too, I think, even how we're, it seems like we have to continuously say that our show is not sports.

• 5:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:19Speaker 04

  Like, we announced this thing it wasn't sports. We talk about it on the Instagram all the time that it's not sports. But it goes back to that point of like, it has been so hard for people to see us outside of this thing. Like, when you are doing this show, you're not having to hammer it over people's head that it isn't just a sports show. Because you guys have been afforded like, the, kind of the privilege of having like, different perspectives. It's so hard, I think, sometimes for people to do that with women in sports specifically.

• 5:48Fred Taylor?

  What was the initial conversation like? Like, whose idea was it? And was, what, how did you guys formulate the business side of it? Was it clean and cut, right down the middle?

• 5:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're 50/50, baby. It was actually very easy on the business side of it because we were completely aligned with what we wanted to do. And, you know, we're both professionals and have other business ventures and have had also the ability to have proximity to a lot of other people who are in this space, learn and ask questions from them. What do, do, what not to do, what to expect, what, what can make things fall apart. But Taylor and I are beyond just being very good friends, have a lot of respect for each other. And that makes conversations easier, it makes business easier, it makes making decisions easier. And so, it was a very... It was a lot of work, but it wasn't hard work because we can have conversations

• 6:42Speaker 03

  pretty easily. So I don't know whose original idea it was. Like, we've talked about doing this for a while. It just wasn't time yet. So I think we just had a conversation and decided that we were gonna move forward with it and then started putting things in motion.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:56Ryan Clark?

  The first few posts you have, Taylor, you had it emotional. You were just sharing about your mother, right? And not seeing feelings really be expressed as you were growing up and trying to grow into that, trying to learn about that. You mentioned therapy in helping you walk through those feelings. And like, when we're emotional on a show, everybody loves it, right? Because it's like these big, bad football players who are always tough, all the time. Look at them being vulnerable and open, right? It's not necessarily always that safe space for a woman, especially if they see you as

• 7:36Ryan Clark?

  sports. What was that like in processing, okay, I'm going to open up, this show isn't just about sports. I'm gonna share these parts of me when people have only seen me one way. Because now, when you open that up, you're open for rejection, you're open for criticism, for scrutiny. How did you walk yourself through that to be ready for that moment on your show?

• 7:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, I think what was interesting about just that clip and overall conversation and moment where I was talking about my mom and emotions and how I've really had to learn how to navigate how I feel and what emotions I feel at any given time is that I almost feel like I had to be that way to accomplish the things that I was able to. But it's really sad that women feel like they can't show these emotions in these spaces. It's not the way that it should be, but I would maybe even just attribute my... Kind of solidness in my kind of poker face as to why I'm able to deal with criticism now. Why I'm able to be in the spotlight and be OK with it.

• 8:40Speaker 04

  Because people always have something to say, but it feels like as a woman, the minute you show that weakness, they feel like they won and they feel like they made you feel exactly how they wanted to make you feel. And in sports specifically, you're around men all the time and sometimes you feel like that means you have to mirror what they do. You have to almost have that same sort of bravado and just like solid skin. And I think that I have found a lot of power in showing what I feel emotionally. When I'm sad, when I'm happy, it's definitely, it's hard. Like even now, when I'm talking about my emotions, it's very hard for me because it's not something I like to do publicly. I feel like there was always a very specific persona of what I was like and I didn't show much. Like I said, because I feel like I couldn't.

• 9:24Speaker 04

  But I have really found the power in showing like who I am fully now, for sure.

• 9:28Ryan Clark?

  And we were kind of joking about it before. I was like, Taylor, like what's your walk around clothes look like? You know what I mean? Like when you chilling, what are you in? And he was like, hey, either I'm like this or I'm in an airport outfit. And it does feel that way, but it also feels that way with the way you present, right? Like I'm looking at you sitting, like every time you start talking, I try to sit. They back ain't hit the fucking chair yet. You know what I'm saying?

• 9:51Speaker 04

  I'm short, if I sit back, I'm gonna like be dangling.

• 9:54Ryan Clark?

  Damn, none of they backs done hit the chair.

• 9:57Speaker 04

  I mean, to your point though, I'm, I'm used to always being on.

• 10:02Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 10:02Speaker 04

  Like since I, I've been a kid, I've used to always being on. I think I've understood like, you feel like you have to give the people what they want. But the issue sometimes is like what the people want isn't always what you want. And so I know that like I have to always be on it. And I very rarely get to take a break outside of being like what people believe Taylor Rooks to be. And I have felt like in a lot of ways, that's been my power. But now I understand the power is letting them in on the other things too. But you're right, I feel like I'm always dressed up. I think I have like a very good just decorum about myself. I, I never want people to think I'm not ready to go. Because I think I've made a career on always being ready to go.

• 10:43Channing Crowder?

  Along that same path, Joy, because when I got to the Dolphins in '05, you were JT's little sister. You were in the locker room, you were running around. I'm gonna say you were a tomboy.

• 10:54Speaker 04

  I mean, I was not that yet.

• 10:57Speaker 03

  Oh five.

• 10:58Channing Crowder?

  Hey Chan.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  I was in college.

• 11:00Channing Crowder?

  She was a child? Bro, she was a. You said she was running around.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  I appreciate that you thought of me as a child. That is the appropriate way to refer to me. But I think I was like 19.

• 11:09Channing Crowder?

  But you still had on Dolphin issues shorts and t-shirts.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  I was a tomboy, yeah.

• 11:14Channing Crowder?

  Like you were tomboyish. And then now, like, and we were, we were in Miami together and we were in radio together. And to see the maturation of that, and I'm interested, and I never even talked about you personally, one-on-one, but like, from then to now, like, what that thing, kind of like what Taylor was talking about, like, what you had to be, because being Jason Taylor's little sister, to now being Joy Taylor, where you have your own career, and that whole maturation of what I saw in oh five, to what I see you sitting there with that, that one piece on.

• 11:48Channing Crowder?

  Like, like, just speak, speak on that and speak on the progression of you. I, I would say, coming into your own as Joy and not JT's little sister.

• 11:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I mean, it's good to talk to you about this because you've known me for that long. So you know everything that I've done in my career to get to that point. And that's really what the journey had to be. And I've had a million jobs, as Taylor has, and done a million things, and worked a bunch of different jobs. I knew Channing when I was a bartender.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  Lots of different renditions of, of Joy. But in the business, particularly in sports, to separate from someone like Jason Taylor, first-ballot Hall of Famer, defensive end, legendary player, who had an unbelievable relationship with the media at a time where everybody didn't necessarily do that. It's not that it ever really came across as difficult to me, because I always thought it was an extreme privilege to be able to see behind the curtain of the business. Even today, I feel like my perspectives are shaped by the fact that I got to watch my brother, who came from nothing, go through high school and college and be a third-round draft pick and make the team and grow throughout the different versions of his career,

• 13:03Speaker 03

  and deal with the different things, getting cut, getting traded, joining a rival team.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  Media reaction, fan reaction, all these things have given me a perspective that I think is very unique in the business, but then also I was an athlete growing up as well. I got recruited to run track and play soccer in college as well. So I feel like all those different things have played a role in the perspective and given me an advantage for sure because everybody can't speak to those. You guys can speak to those experiences because you live them on the athlete's side, but I can speak to them because of the proximity that I've had to those actual experiences. I was with my brother when he gave his speech to the media that he was leaving Miami, so goes to New York. I went in the room with him afterwards when he was, he won't care now, he was crying, he was upset, you know, that he had to leave Miami. So, all of those things I think have helped me in my career, would be disingenuous to

• 13:55Speaker 03

  say that they haven't, but I also knew that I had to prove myself, and much like Taylor said, every day. And there's no room for error, there's no room for mistakes, you can't say a name wrong, you can't get a stat wrong, and I'm in the opinion space, so you definitely can't get anything wrong, because everyone assumes that this, you are saying this, you mean this. So, but you know what, I don't have any bitterness about it. It was always going to be a hard business to break into and to separate, and I feel really grateful to be able to work in the business. I feel like everything that I've accomplished in the business gives me a seat at the table that is met with respect, which, you know, which I appreciate immensely, and, you know,

• 14:38Speaker 03

  I have lots of stories, but we're here now.

• 14:41Fred Taylor?

  We're gonna get into them. I got some stories too.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  You've got some chanting stories. I have some chanting stories, yes, I do, but, well, we might save those for another episode.

• 14:52Speaker 04

  I've had many a chanting story. Last time I was here, I learned all about the cat sex, so.

• 14:55Fred Taylor?

  There we go. Have you tried it?

• 14:57Speaker 04

  No, I have not, unfortunately.

• 14:59Fred Taylor?

  Man, you got it.

• 15:00Ryan Clark?

  She might live in a spot where you can't lay on the porch in a cat outfit. You can always lay on the porch. And lap up. It's always a four year.

• 15:07Speaker 04

  Oh, don't even. Joey goes, Joey goes.

• 15:09Ryan Clark?

  Enjoy. Another show. It's a good show.

• 15:14Speaker 04

  I'm not doing it, so.

• 15:17Fred Taylor?

  I think that both of you, both of you do an amazing job in a male-dominated industry, I guess. Can the guys who watch you on the shows that you're currently doing now, can they transition and get the same type of energy and respect from watching you guys on your podcast?

• 15:33Speaker 04

  Well.

• 15:33Fred Taylor?

  Or is it like a so, like a so far?

• 15:36Speaker 04

  So far, the men have not really appreciated what I've had to say, which I find to be very strange because I think I'm, in general, very pro-men.

• 15:44Fred Taylor?

  What have you said? That upset them?

• 15:46Speaker 04

  Well, we both said that we want to date a man that has female friends.

• 15:52Channing Crowder?

  That's a lie. That's a lie. That's a lie.

• 15:54Ryan Clark?

  I don't think that's a lie.

• 15:55Channing Crowder?

  I think that's a lie.

• 15:56Speaker 04

  What is happening?

• 15:57Ryan Clark?

  I only had one problem with it. I only had one problem with it. And I understand it, but it was, it was the part about receiving our information from men only. Because I, because I don't necessarily think you need female friends to receive information from females in that sort of situation. But I do believe that you need to be able to understand how to, one, control yourself around women, but also how to treat women in just everyday walks of life with respect.

• 16:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, and that was the point.

• 16:30Ryan Clark?

  And so, and so I do believe that, but we all were like, yeah, I don't want you getting all your information from, from men. Well, I don't need a woman friend. I got a model.

• 16:40Channing Crowder?

  Who, who calling? Tammy? Who the fuck is Tammy?

• 16:45Speaker 04

  No, I think people got too caught up in like maybe one part of the video. What we are saying is this is about how you value women. If you are only able to see women as somebody that you want to have sex with or a family member, then you do not value women. Like, we're just saying you can't have a conversation with a woman that is your friend. You don't have any female friends in your life that you hang out with, that you can just talk to about things. That says more to me about how you be women as a whole. We're not saying men need to just be running around making new female friends every day, but you need to have the ability and capacity to just be able to talk to women as human beings. Like, that was the whole point.

• 17:26Fred Taylor?

  Oh, I knew what the point was. I was just messing with you.

• 17:29Speaker 04

  That's the entire point. And there was so much pushback on it. I'm like, I'm very, first of all, I'm confused because I feel like I'm saying that you should, you should have female friends. Yeah, I didn't think that's controversial. You have like a complete life.

• 17:43Speaker 03

  I don't know why that's anti-men. I think I started by saying, I don't want to date someone. And so that made people feel like I was gonna date them before I pointed out that they didn't have female friends.

• 17:53Channing Crowder?

  They probably didn't have no shot, didn't either.

• 17:54Speaker 03

  There's just one of me, I can't date all y'all. Only one's gonna win. Only one's gonna win. And it's not you. So don't stress yourself out about it. I think the dating conversations have really devolved to, if you say you don't like something, or you don't want something, it's an indictment of what someone else does or wants. And it's not.

• 18:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's just your opinion.

• 18:13Speaker 03

  There's not one way to be in a relationship. You have a different relationship than he has, than you have, than I have, than Taylor has. And all of us seem to be getting along just fine. So everyone doesn't have to have the same perspectives on relationships. Nor am I giving advice. This is literally just what I think is what Taylor thinks. And by the way, all the baddies feel this way. Every one of my friends, every single one of my female friends agrees wholeheartedly. Not that you have to have some harem of women that you tap in with.

• 18:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:41Speaker 03

  But if you don't have one woman in your life, not one, that you just have a relationship with, that you are not sexualizing her in any way, and she's not related to you, so you wouldn't? That's concerning to me.

• 18:54Speaker 04

  It is.

• 18:54Speaker 03

  I don't know, like...

• 18:55Channing Crowder?

  What's the downside?

• 18:56Speaker 03

  I think, well, one, I just don't think that you... It's hard for me to trust you, because I'm gonna assume that any woman around you is just prey, because you don't think of them as anything other than sex.

• 19:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it's, though, some of the reactions I thought were actually weird and kind of alarming, that the men were like, no, we can't have female friends. That is a wild thing to say out loud. You cannot be around a woman platonically.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  A lot of people took it even a step further, that like, no, they're like validating what I'm saying. What you're saying, like, they're like, no, no, no, like, you're only good for making babies. Like, why would we talk to you? I'm like, thank you for saying that, because you're putting yourself in the category that we're worried about. So you cleared it up. But that's really all I was saying.

• 19:39Channing Crowder?

  But I push back, both of y'all. I push back, is where...

• 19:45Channing Crowder?

  Who's calling? Oh, Freddie T. Who's calling? RC's hit me. No big deal. Who's calling? Janice? Jeanette? Tammy? This? To y'all, I think it would be more of a rise if I say RC or Freddie T. And then if I say Linda. Because y'all will look at a women friend different than you look at Freddie T's hit me. Me and Freddie T's about going golfing. Me and RC's talking about, hey, where we working later? I think that's the point of the conversation.

• 20:16Ryan Clark?

  It's also, though, I think it's also the perspective in which you present the relationship. Right? If Joy or Taylor meet me and I have this certain friend who I've had for a long time, they understand our relationship, then they're not going to get a rise out of it because they're going to meet that person in that manner. And they're going to understand, and I'm going to make it clear, that this is the relationship that we have. Now, if Linda is new, it's like, we gotta meet Linda.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that, yeah.

• 20:43Ryan Clark?

  Like, and so, like, I understand that. And also, I truly do understand the part about just learning and understanding to respect women as a whole. Now, I will say this as well. And because I want to move on and have, like, a different conversation. Because I'm sure you guys have had that conversation.

• 21:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:02Ryan Clark?

  Like, where you'd be like, hey, you know, all the baddies feel this way. I've learned, as I've gotten older, and you move into a world with more confident women. You move into a world with more assertive women. Sometimes, it's not necessarily us feeling like we can't have these relationships because we can't control ourselves. It's having been in enough conversation or been around enough people where they throw the hints out that, oh, this could be something more. Or, I do see you in a different way. Or, they start to come to you and behave differently. Like, it's not just men who sometimes can't control themselves around women. It's certain men that women feel a certain way about, too.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  For sure. And I think the overall overarching point of the conversation, which was a little lost in all of the comments and retorts, is...

• 21:54Ryan Clark?

  It's about respect.

• 21:55Speaker 03

  It's about respect, but also... It's who are these people to you? I'm not suggesting that my man go just make a bunch of new female friends.

• 22:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, that'd be insane.

• 22:04Speaker 03

  Is this the someone that you've known since high school? That you know their husbands and you like you've met their kids? And okay, like this is so and so that I've known for 15 years. We're cool. I'm not sleeping with her. They're very obviously interested in who he is as a person. They've seen him in different versions and are happy for him. Like, there's an energy that you can feel around these people. Of course, women want men and sometimes present as friends in order to get with them as well. People like to have sex with each other. That is the world that we live in. What we're talking about is if I meet a man and he has no interest in women other than sex, which he will make known very early

• 22:47Speaker 03

  because of his friend group, of how he talks to women, how he talks to me, that is alarming to me and I'm just saying, I don't want that.

• 22:54Ryan Clark?

  And that's your choice, though. That is your choice.

• 22:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, which is tea. And when I say all the baddies, to be clear, because every time anyone makes a sweeping generalization, everyone gets mad, I'm talking about all my baddies. There are other baddies that I'm sure disagree.

• 23:06Speaker 04

  But also too, and very importantly, is we are also speaking from experience. Like, I am in a very loving, happy, healthy relationship with a man who is the best, who has female friends that I do not care about. So to ask about, okay, the person calling, no, I live this. It does not matter to me. There is a trust that exists. There is a belief in how he values what women are. And above all else, relationships are contracts. You determine the terms of your contract. As long as that person is not breaking those terms in your contract, then you're good. The disrespect comes from when you have decided to go out of bounds of what has already been discussed and agreed upon. And no person should do that in any relationship.

• 23:51Speaker 04

  And again, if you do not want your man to have female friends, that's good for you. We're not trying to change your mind. We're just talking about our experiences and the life that we've lived.

• 24:00Speaker 03

  And actually, I want to put the final pin on it. Don't, don't take my advice. You don't live the life I live. These are, we have different problems. I say this all the time when people ask me questions. We don't have the same problems, baby. I live a different life than you do. You should not just blanketly take my advice if what I do does not apply to your lifestyle. Taylor and I are outside. We are traveling the world. We are around and in different rooms, around different people. We are constantly around men. That might not at all be what your man can deal with. And that's okay, because he's your man. Your man doesn't have to worry about me. He's not my man.

• 24:37Ryan Clark?

  I think that's the point, though, too, though. You don't start these shows to necessarily give advice. You're starting these shows...

• 24:43Speaker 03

  That wasn't at all what we're doing.

• 24:45Ryan Clark?

  And you're sharing, and you're sharing your experiences. I think what happens is, in our lines of work, on speak, as you continue to work in the many realms you work, you got like, you got jobs like me, right? When, when you do that, we are thought to be the experts. We are thought to be knowledgeable on something and sharing that knowledge in hopes that people learn from it. Because that is the job we're paid to do from a media standpoint. When you start a show like that and you decide, okay, we're gonna share our true thoughts, we're gonna be open, people are viewing it from what your linear network job is, as opposed to...

• 25:20Speaker 03

  Which is, which is, that's a question.

• 25:22Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, as opposed to you guys sitting down and just talking. But I, I watched in one of the clips, you talked about being in a place, in a unique space, that you didn't feel alone in because there was a joy. And so now you start this journey, which is different than the normal journey. The thing that you guys have learned to navigate. So very early on in starting this process, what's something that you feel like you've learned now that you didn't know before you guys started, too personal?

• 25:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I would say you kinda have to be okay with people not liking you or not agreeing with what it is you have to say. And the nature of a lot of my work is like I am an interviewer. So I ask people questions. I try to get to the heart of what they feel, what they think. I serve as a, like a conduit and a vessel of other people. A lot of the work I do when I'm not hosting is actually based in getting other people to speak. It is inherently not based in me speaking my thoughts or opinions. It's getting you to tell me yours. And I think it's easy to like that person. It's very easy to say, okay, I enjoy watching her get this manner, talk about themselves. They're so comfortable around her. She is able to get these things out of them, et cetera, et cetera.

• 26:36Speaker 04

  It's easy to like that person because I think in a lot of ways I seem very, um, I seem very agreeable because that's what the work is. That's what interviewing is. But now with this, this is based on opinion. It's based on me talking about my life and things that have happened to me. I am still that same person who is interviewing, but it's now this like almost a process of interviewing myself. Like getting myself to talk about things that I wouldn't normally publicly. And I mean, Joy touched on it a little bit when she was talking about being in the opinion space. Something that people don't always contextualize with Joy is there are very few women that are in the opinion space in sports. Like there's very few women that serve that role as like an analyst. And a lot of that in some ways is by design.

• 27:21Speaker 04

  I think sometimes it has been hard for men to be able to just digest the fact that a woman has an opinion on sports. And so she, I think in a lot of ways, I have learned is a little more comfortable, at least in the beginning, talking about herself. Because that just isn't the nature of what I do. So I have become more comfortable with saying, maybe somebody isn't going to like what I have to say, but that doesn't matter because it is what I have to say and it's what I think. I, I don't think you can be in it for, for the likes. You have to be in it for the accuracy. Um, and just it being true to yourself.

• 27:56Ryan Clark?

  She reminds me of him.

• 27:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:59Channing Crowder?

  You know what, it's so funny.

• 28:00Ryan Clark?

  I'm just being honest, like, and listen to her, like, she's extremely straightforward. She cusses a lot, a lot, cusses a lot, but I find myself in listening to her, like, yeah, that's right, or, or, or not even that, I get the perspective, and I understand the perspective, which makes me respect the human.

• 28:19Channing Crowder?

  RC, it's all genuine, just listening to Taylor talk and knowing Joy, like, it's funny you say that there's not a lot of women in y'all's space, the opinion space, and it's almost like, when they say the athletes, the NFL players are the 1% of the 1% of the 1%, whatever they do, y'all are the 1% of the 1%. And for Ryan to say that, where even knowing you so long and seeing you come up, like, damn, Joy's doing it, you never, you never thought about pulling back because you're, you're setting a precedent for women in sports that hasn't been set before about what y'all, y'all are both doing, but Joy, knowing you so long, like, and seeing the progression, to be the 1% of 1%, and have you ever thought, like, maybe I should pull back, maybe I shouldn't

• 29:03Channing Crowder?

  be as opinionated, maybe I shouldn't be as this, because that's not what I've seen in the past? We had, I had fucking Ray Lewis to look up to, I had Zach Thomas to look up, I had those guys to look up to, y'all really have people to look up to like that.

• 29:19Speaker 03

  Jamel was the one that made me think I could do it, because she, when I think of women in the opinion space, she's, is still, I think, the only one that had a show, and so, speak, that was just about any sport, like, wasn't sports specific, wasn't about being an analyst, like, was just giving opinions, so, there are definitely women who, you know, cracked the glass for us, but I don't ever think about pulling back. Well, one, for who, for what?

• 29:49Channing Crowder?

  You can't do it.

• 29:50Speaker 03

  I can't. We in it now. But also, to Taylor's point, like, the authenticity is the part that people relate to. And this is, this is how I talk. You know this. You know, like, if you've spent any time talking to me, this is how I talk. This is the energy that I'm on. If I have a thought, this is my thought. If you don't like it, that's fine. There's billions of other people. Go find them. Stop bothering me. And it's not based in hate or anger, or, and, and because I have the proximity to athletes that I do, I really try to not let it be egotistical at all, because it's not about me. It's, I don't ever want to be the story. I'm gonna give my opinion, but I don't want my opinion to become the story that affects somebody else's legacy, or, or fans' opinions of a player.

• 30:35Speaker 03

  So I'm basing it in stats or results and, and all of that, so, but. The one thing that sticks out when people ask me that question is there, there's been times in my career when I have been asked to hold back. And because I was in the position that I was in my career, I did. And it was not only not rewarded, it was flipped on me in a way that is, it is infuriating to me to this day that I ever listened to any of this. And I know that what I was, you can't be too hard on yourself. I was young in the industry. The people that were asking me to do this were very powerful. But at the end, it did absolutely nothing for me, and I would never do it again.

• 31:17Speaker 03

  I would never make myself small for anyone. If you, if I'm too much, go find less. It's just, it's really that simple, so, and I, I think that showing up as your authentic self in whatever version that is, like, you don't have to cuss and be loud, or whatever I am. You can be whatever it is you are. It's the advice Taylor and I give to every single woman that asks us for advice. We give almost the exact same advice, which is, don't change anything about yourself. What makes you special is you. Not everybody's special, so no one's special. What makes you special is you. So the second you start changing that, you lose the thing. So you can't do it. No, you can't hold back.

• 31:58Fred Taylor?

  Is there ever a thing such as being too buttoned up? Like, I don't know your, your crowd, or your audience, right, for your too personal. But I would think that, looking at you guys from a professional lens, and then going over to see your show, right? Is there ever a moment where you guys would ever get messy?

• 32:17Speaker 04

  I say messy, no. That's not, that's not in me. I ain't messy. Yeah.

• 32:21Speaker 03

  I mean, I'm not very messy, but I'm...

• 32:23Fred Taylor?

  So what's the good mess? That's what pushes views. Well, they just said it's not about views for them.

• 32:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's genuinely not.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  I mean, we got, we have views regardless.

• 32:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, I would say we're opinionated. I don't think I'd ever say we're messy.

• 32:37Speaker 03

  We do.

• 32:37Fred Taylor?

  Opinionated, we can use that word.

• 32:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'd say opinionated because I think messy implies like an intent to create mess.

• 32:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:44Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 32:45Speaker 04

  You know, and that is just not a thing that I think we would ever want to do.

• 32:49Fred Taylor?

  So good messy is opinionated?

• 32:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:51Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, I mean, I don't, that's not who I am in any space in life.

• 32:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  I'm just a very calculated, intentional person and Taylor is too. So even if it's something that's not on camera and there's a situation, I'm not, I have to make sure that you're dead. So I can't react to the situation. Like I gotta plan and make sure that this is no longer happening. So I'm just not a reactionary person and I'm necessarily a messy person. And I think that when you fabricate things like that, when you fabricate conversations that you don't really believe in, you don't really have proximity to, you don't really have experiences with, the audience figures it out. I fully believe we don't give enough credit to audiences. Audiences can see that you're being authentic. They can see that this is what you want to talk about.

• 33:40Speaker 03

  They can see this is what you're passionate about. And anytime you try and fool people, eventually, it might work a couple of times, but it's not lasting because it's not built in any kind of real foundation. To your, to your point about the, the friends, my man has female friends. I have experienced this. I've had men who have had female friends that weren't their friends either. So I have all of the experiences and I still feel this way. And this is, I can speak so passionately about it and Taylor can speak so passionately about it because it is truly our experiences. So mess, mess sells and mess gets views, but I don't think that mess keeps anybody.

• 34:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I also think too, like, it can never be...

• 34:23Speaker 03

  You know, messy because the topics that we're talking about, we genuinely care deeply about. Like, we sit and think about what moved us that week, what we think we need to add context and nuance to. Like, we want to be able to talk about cultural and societal topics from the lens of our experiences and what we think. And if somebody maybe sees that as polarizing, or maybe, I don't know, a little bit, a little, little bit messy, the intent isn't that it's messy, it's just what we think about the topic.

• 34:52Fred Taylor?

  That particular question came from, I only saw a small clip from the story. I think you mentioned about the fetish with, with pregnancy.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:01Fred Taylor?

  You know, that other situation's going on with the Jalen Green thing. And so I don't know how, I didn't see the entire clip. In all fairness.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, to Taylor's point, the structure of the show is, was very intentional, that we don't want to talk about specific people. So we wouldn't talk about that situation with those people. We wouldn't talk about any particular person's drama, or go back and forth about what we think about, are we on this team this or team that? It's a zoom out from the actual conversation. So, for example, we did the topic of society fetishizing pregnancy. And when I, I use the word fetish specifically because I know what people are going to think about the word fetish, that it's sexual, but it's really an unhealthy obsession with pregnancy.

• 35:50Speaker 03

  But, it's pinned to Halle Bailey talking about hiding her pregnancy, Meghan Markle talking about being brutally abused online every time that she was pregnant. Vanessa Hudgens coming out and being on the red carpet at the Oscars, and people asking who she got pregnant by when she's fully married. Just the, so it's, it's not about any of those circumstances, it's about why are we so unhealth, like, have this obsession with being pregnant and then not supporting pregnant women? So it will never be about the actual specific person to, like, that situation. It's the zoom out from the conversation that we'll actually have a dinner, that when we call each other and are catching up, we actually have these conversations. And that's really where the idea of the show was birthed, because...

• 36:35Speaker 03

  The comment section is a rough place, y'all. There's not a lot of nuance. It's not how people talk to each other. You and I can disagree on a ton of things. At the end of the day, the next time I see you, it's big bro. It's family. It's, I'm not gonna not stop being friends and, and having respect for you because you disagree on a topic. That's not how human beings speak to each other. And I think the internet has created this environment where if you think this, you're that. If you think this, you're this. Taylor and I prefer men that have nuanced relationships with women. We're old, bitter, and this is why we'll never be married. Like, there's no, there's no- It's wild. There's no nuance to the conversation.

• 37:19Ryan Clark?

  I mean, you said that's what people thought, that's what you thought self-love was.

• 37:22Speaker 03

  I did, I did. But that's what evolving is. That's what evolving is. I definitely used to think that when I was younger. But I was an idiot.

• 37:32Speaker 03

  I didn't know shit. That's why I felt that way. And then I went to therapy, and I've gone through a lot of things since. And now I know that that is not true. But if we're gonna have conversations, let's have them.

• 37:44Ryan Clark?

  But isn't that the difficulty in this job, but also the beauty in it, right? Because conversations are nuanced.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 37:50Ryan Clark?

  And a lot of times, what's in the comment section comes from other people's personal story. It's not your personal story. It's not actually what you said to them. It's what they felt because of their experiences. And the hate and the anger or the hurt that is displayed in those words isn't because they feel that towards you. It's because they feel that about themselves. And I think I've had to learn that as we've gotten into this space, because I share a ton about my life. Because like, that's what I know. Like, I'm not necessarily great at making all those decisions, but I'm an expert because I lived through that. And I can explain to you what I felt in living through that. And what you get from it, you get from it. I do kind of want to backtrack.

• 38:32Ryan Clark?

  And I know this show is a lot about what you guys are doing on the show. But our experiences shape us. I read something from you in 2014, and I'm probably gonna misquote this. You said you remembered everything about the first time you were abused. You remember the attack. You remember your family getting involved. You remember calling the police. He said it was the worst night of your life till it happened the next time. And then it happened the next time. I, in just reading it and now saying it again, had an emotional reaction to it. Just because I got girls. And like, to me, like, we're all fucked up in some way. I think that's a different type of fucked up.

• 39:13Ryan Clark?

  And so, to be able to share your experiences in that, what gave you the strength to say, you know what, this is something I've been through. This is something other people have gone through. And I believe, in some way, sharing my story, sharing my energy, giving my time, can help someone else the way I wanted someone to help me.

• 39:36Speaker 03

  The Ray Rice situation made me want to talk about it. Because I had never shared anything publicly. Even some of my family didn't know what had happened to me. And I didn't even initially say it. It wasn't until about the second or third round of the story, where people started to turn on her and make the story about her. Was she gonna stay? Was it about money? What did she say to him that made him do it? And I was just hearing the, all of the reasons why it was okay what he did started, you know, started to snowball. Even though we had this very horrific video clearly showing what happened.

• 40:18Speaker 03

  And when I was in that particular situation, a friend of mine took me to Women in Distress, which is a women's shelter in South Florida. They have a luncheon every year. And I was listening to these horrific stories. I mean, women being kidnapped and chained to poles and just horrible, horrible stories. And they're just up there talking about what happened to them. And they started using words that I hadn't heard before, like gaslighting and narcissist and...

• 40:50Speaker 03

  Just explaining all of the things that were happening to me that I didn't know how to explain other than I'm just being abused. And so when the Ray Rice thing happened, I was on air in South Florida. I was doing my radio show. And I just kind of felt like if there's ever a time to talk about it, this is the time. And I actually think it will be helpful because what I learned through those conversations, and I gave people a lot of grace because we really, I don't feel, have had that conversation so publicly with the evidence so glaring and jarring to where everyone was like, this is wrong. So we had a moment to really introduce the conversation to people where it really wasn't that divisive of a topic. Like, everyone knew where to stand on it.

• 41:35Speaker 03

  What I realized is a lot of people think that that is something that happens to a specific type of woman, that this happens to people who don't have resources, or this happens to somebody who's married to someone who has addiction issues or something. And what I realized through talking about it is people just don't know this happens all the time to everyone. It is not, doesn't have anything to do with how much money you make, or how famous you are, or how beautiful you are, or what your family is like, or if you have brothers, or any of these things. It does not preclude you from this experience. So it gave me a lot of reassurance that I was doing the right thing, but also the response and talking about it more and the amount of people that have, you know, responded to me talking about it and just the education of it.

• 42:20Speaker 03

  And giving people a space where they don't feel like it's only happening to them really made it, made it worth it.

• 42:26Ryan Clark?

  We know. Like, I don't ever sit down and go, this show is for guys. Right? I just don't. And you, and people gravitate to what's familiar to them and things that they connect with. But we never have that part of the thought process as a part of how I prepare. What touches people, touches people. What doesn't? For you both, you know, you did mention, you know... Doing something that's different for women. But in your show, what do you feel or how do you feel men can also benefit and learn from listening to what you guys say? Because it brings me back to not only getting information from men.

• 43:09Ryan Clark?

  This is also a way that that can happen and you may not, guys may not necessarily be comfortable in those relationships. But learning something like what you just said, listening to you talk about your mother and that may allow me to relate to my significant other who also didn't see love growing up or didn't see feelings growing up. What can men learn from listening to you two guys, you two, you don't call you guys, you two ladies sharing your stories? Individuals.

• 43:38Speaker 04

  You two folks.

• 43:40Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, it was like, guys, it was gender neutral when I said it.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  It's a gender neutral.

• 43:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, we were funny and callous guys. You know, I want them to honestly just understand different perspectives and understand that sometimes the surface level conversation isn't actually the important conversation. Like with the episode that we put out about the pregnancy. I think sometimes men see it as, oh, we, we just want to know, we know about their pregnancy. We want to know why you haven't had kids, if you're going to have kids. But no, what you're actually doing when you are talking to us all the time about when we're going to have kids or why we don't have kids. You are objectifying us and dehumanizing us in some way. So we want them to understand the ways that you can have these conversations and understand the other layers to these conversations. Or there'll be comments saying, okay, well, you can't talk about this, like you don't have kids or you're not married.

• 44:29Speaker 04

  It's like, why do we keep on making women and like minimizing women to their circumstances or their proximity to men? So we want men to be able to watch the show and just understand the things that women really care about. What we're really thinking, the ways that men can support us too. Like while it is a show where the audience like is women, it genuinely is a people show. Because we're talking about the society and cultural issues that impact us all and why we care about them. Like there is going to be a man that hears Joy talk about when she was abused. And understand, maybe they have seen some of these things in friends that they know. Or maybe they're gonna get a different perspective on what, you know,

• 45:11Speaker 04

  domestic violence actually is and what it looks like or doesn't look like. Maybe they'll hear me and even when I posted the video talking about how I learned through emotions, I had so many men, specifically black men, commenting and saying that they felt like so much of that is the black experience. That when you have a black mom, they're just dealing with so many things.

• 45:29Ryan Clark?

  So damn strong.

• 45:30Speaker 04

  And they just, they're so strong and like, my mom loved me so fully, but she also had to be so strong for me that it was hard for her to be able to be anything else. And I think that's an experience that ties all of us. So we want them to hear a different perspective, but also understand that that is a perspective that they have too, even if they view it a little differently. So, men are welcome. Like, come watch the show and hear what we have to talk about.

• 45:57Channing Crowder?

  Well, you brought up marriage, I have to ask. Uh, I see you got a little ring on. I don't think that's your wedding ring. You had a close call. You swung for the fences and that bitch hit the catcher's mitt. We all know.

• 46:11Channing Crowder?

  Is it, is it, is it hard? Is it hard dating, like, trying to find that person? Y'all are, y'all are super successful, beautiful women. And y'all are sitting here, I've been married 13 years, you know my wife, you know it.

• 46:25Ryan Clark?

  You are not attractive. Like, that's what's crazy.

• 46:28Channing Crowder?

  Listen, bitch. Let me ask the girls a goddamn question. Why ain't y'all motherfuckers married?

• 46:34Speaker 04

  If it's all connected to your wife cheating, it's a fair statement.

• 46:36Channing Crowder?

  It is, she is. She got me.

• 46:38Speaker 03

  Why ain't y'all married? Like, I don't understand it.

• 46:41Speaker 04

  Okay, whoa, whoa, why aren't we married?

• 46:43Ryan Clark?

  The ones they just said.

• 46:46Channing Crowder?

  She just said that in the comments, man.

• 46:47Ryan Clark?

  She just said, don't, like, objectify her or value her. She said, don't value her by her proximity to men.

• 46:54Channing Crowder?

  I'm not valuing her by that. I'm saying that, I don't wanna put age, I don't wanna put age on y'all, but we're sneaking up together. We're sneaking up together, ladies. You're not 21 anymore.

• 47:06Speaker 04

  The issue there actually isn't, isn't necessarily the objectifying aspect of it. I would say that asking somebody, "Why aren't you married?", implies that marriage has to be the goal that they are looking to reach for in life. I love love. I am in love. You don't know what this means, actually. So I am fully, fully happy in the relationship that I am in. I am living my life in the ways that I want to live my life. I know that marriage is happening for me. I know that children will happen for me. But that isn't what I am saying. Every single thing that I do in my life is meant for that. Everything in my life is I want to show up as a good person, a hardworking person. I have goals and dreams that I want to accomplish. And I love that I have a man that is the most important thing in my life.

• 47:51Speaker 04

  But he's also a part of my life, the way that I am a part of his life. I don't look to make my entire life about men, which I also think is something that is very hard for men to understand, too. My life is not about men or getting married. That's not the, that's not the main goal in life.

• 48:09Channing Crowder?

  You gonna get a prenup?

• 48:11Speaker 04

  Yes, actually. Everyone should get a prenup. Yeah, that's every single person should get a prenup.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  That is advice. The other part was perspective, that is not his advice. Well, I've been married, Channing.

• 48:22Channing Crowder?

  You did, but yeah, it was open, like.

• 48:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was quick.

• 48:25Channing Crowder?

  You were married and then we saw the next one.

• 48:27Speaker 03

  Like, it was legal, because I got a divorce, I remember. So I've been married and I've been engaged.

• 48:33Channing Crowder?

  Yes.

• 48:33Speaker 03

  And I guess we should just do this now. You will never know if I have a man or not. Maybe I have a man, maybe I live with a man, maybe I don't. Maybe I have seven men. It doesn't matter. I will never be in a public relationship again.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  Same, I will not be in a public.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  Never, ever, ever be in a public relationship again. So if you think that my opinion has no value because you think I'm single, that is a reflection of if you think that everything on the internet is real, first of all. And second.

• 49:02Channing Crowder?

  If the internet is real, you all have had a lot of men.

• 49:05Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't know how I'm here with you right now.

• 49:08Speaker 04

  I have lost count. Because every man, and I feel like I say this all the time, but it just doesn't click to people. Every man online that I have been pictured with, people say I'm in a relationship with. But there is no picture that exists online of the person that I actually am in a relationship with.

• 49:26Speaker 03

  None, zero.

• 49:26Speaker 04

  Who is a black man, to be incredibly clear about that too. So, the internet is so... And this is another thing that I have learned about the show. The internet is genuinely not a real place. So, the people on there that have things to say, they have never met you. They don't live in the same reality that you live in because they're talking about you on a thing that literally is not reality. So you can't care what people have to say about you online because it is not a reflection of who you actually are. I agree. This is the first time that I feel like I have opened people up to what I'm actually like. And so many people have been wrong about it. And you have to be okay with that because you have to be secure in who and what you are. But yeah, Joy and I are busy.

• 50:10Speaker 04

  A lot of men have been with us.

• 50:12Speaker 03

  I mean, I say this all the time. The streets are over a thousand on me. And I really mean a thousand. Like, I've been with so many people and the streets have never gotten it right. Like, never gotten it right.

• 50:24Speaker 04

  I mean, you guys do realize though how insane it is to see a woman in a photo with a man, just in a photo, and say that's who she's dating. Just a photo.

• 50:34Channing Crowder?

  I know y'all struggle because, god, Lee.

• 50:36Speaker 04

  It's wild.

• 50:37Channing Crowder?

  I just, when you're attractive.

• 50:39Speaker 03

  It's yeah, it's because they would like to be with you. So, it's the picture.

• 50:43Speaker 04

  It's wild.

• 50:44Speaker 03

  You didn't get what he was trying to do, Joy? Yeah, he set me up. He set me up.

• 50:50Speaker 03

  It happens to us.

• 50:51Speaker 04

  Yes, I know. We have allowed images to be stories in a way that is like genuinely damaging to the way that we speak and see things. Like, whether it's some, like, a video that you'll see, even with like the Usher and Alicia Keys thing. People let that video mean something about her marriage to Swiss Beats? Like, that's crazy. Like, we take these little optics and think that it is an entire story when really all we have to do is just have conversations about one another and listen to one another and ask questions. And like, the truth is in the discussion and discourse you have. It's not in like a photo that is posted on the internet. But now, that just feels like what it is.

• 51:29Ryan Clark?

  I think it's also people's infatuation and curiosity with celebrities. The infatuation and curiosity with success. And the measurement of others to that. They see you guys accomplish certain things and reach a certain level. And it's what sort of man would Joy date? What sort of man would Taylor date? The men are measuring themselves up to those men. The women are trying to see if I have accumulated a certain amount of success. Is this the sort of man I should date? And in the end, it's all idiotic, right? Because we're making our personal decisions based on who we love, who we like, who we want to be around, and who we can tolerate in some situations. Sometimes it is just tolerating people until you love them again. Because sometimes they piss you off.

• 52:11Speaker 03

  Relationships are a choice.

• 52:13Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:13Speaker 03

  You choose this person every single day. It's one of the main things that I learned from those relationships is, meaning marriage and engagement, like it's, you're choosing a person. You do not have to stay in this situation. You can get a divorce. You can leave. These are allowed. Maybe found upon, but allowed. So you have to choose that person every day. But a big reason why Taylor and I are so aligned on so many things is because of the privacy aspect of it. Because we want to be very authentic and share a lot about our experiences. But there are just certain things in my life, based off of my experiences, that I will just not be doing again. I don't need you to decide if this man is good-looking enough to be with me.

• 52:57Speaker 03

  I don't need you to decide if he is successful enough. I don't need you to decide what kind of clothes he wears. I don't want to defend him, the person that I love, in the comments. I don't want to have to measure out, if I posted him two weeks ago and if I don't post him now, now all of a sudden we're having problems and people are hitting me up, "Oh, are you guys still together?" Why would the fuck would we not be together?

• 53:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 03

  Because I didn't post him on social media in two weeks? I've been busy. Did you see all the other shit I was doing? Don't worry about it. It's so good. Or maybe it's not. But what it isn't is your business.

• 53:26Speaker 04

  Yeah. So. Totally. And we also too, like, we don't want our lives to ever be entertainment. Like, my personal life is not anyone else's entertainment. The person that I love is not anyone else's entertainment. In this business, you all know, people will try and take and take and take. And if you give, they're just gonna take more and more. You have to have things that you hold close and that you cherish and that you value because they belong to you.

• 53:52Ryan Clark?

  I do have a question, you know, since Channing has grouped himself.

• 53:57Speaker 03

  With the attractives.

• 54:00Speaker 04

  Maybe it was for contrast.

• 54:01Ryan Clark?

  And I crossed my leg, too. It's the attractives over there. You guys had a conversation about being pretty.

• 54:10Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:10Ryan Clark?

  How do you sort of weigh how people will digest that, right? Because you're stating an obvious fact and you're talking about what can be some of the benefits of it, but in a lot of ways, what are the negatives of being attractive women, especially in such a male-driven business? But for women who are maybe insecure, or for women who may not feel society has made them feel as attractive as you both are. When you have a statement like, man, it's hard to be pretty. You don't understand what it's like to be pretty. Like, in me listening to it, I understand it because I know the sort of people that you guys are always around.

• 54:52Ryan Clark?

  I know the sort of industry that you are part of, but not everybody has that experience. How do you feel like you can make that experience resonate with other women?

• 55:03Speaker 03

  Well, I think what's the idea of pretty privilege and what we were talking about is not something that we in any way introduced to the conversation of the world. There's a lot of evidence, there's a lot of experiences that have been shared about so many women in the entertainment space that are considered to be incredibly iconically beautiful, who had tragic lives that were directly a result of what they looked like. Marilyn Monroe had a very hard time. She is widely considered to be one of the most beautiful women that have ever existed. She is still iconic because of her looks and her talent, but of course, because of her looks.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  And she had a pretty rough go, if you want to dig into it and read about it. No, she had an amazing life as well. She was very famous, she got diamonds, she had amazing experiences, but with anything in life, there is a cost. And the idea that just because something offers great highs, that it doesn't simultaneously come with deep lows, is just a matter of perspective and proximity to experience. You all played at a very high level in a league where one percenters of one percenters play. You made lots of money, you were very famous, you had thousands of people screaming your name, buying jerseys with your name on them, begging for your autograph and photos. But you also risked your fucking lives to do that.

• 56:29Speaker 03

  You literally put your actual life on the line to go play the game. Now, that sounds dramatic, but it is just the truth. You are running full speed into another human every single play. There are terrible things and we've seen them happen. So, there's a cost to that. You get injuries, you have surgery, you get Toradol shots, you take pills. There is a cost to that. Now, it's a cost that most people would sign up for. But it is still a cost. And at some point, it might cost someone more than it would cost you. But we know these stories and they're tragic and they're sad. And they are a direct result of their choice to participate in a one percent of a one percent experience. Now, you guys are all the best athletes in the world. That's why you had that experience. I cannot play football.

• 57:14Speaker 03

  I was chosen to look this way. So, there's just, there's things that happen to everyone in life. So, what I would say is certainly things can come across as if they don't like, they don't have gratitude or they're maybe talking down to someone. But if you zoom out from the experience that offers great rewards, understand that there's nothing in life that doesn't come with a dark side, nothing. Money, problems. Biggie said it, right here in this city. It is a fact and you all know it because you all made money. And you know that when you start making money, you're like, I didn't even know that this could be a problem. But now that I have money, this is a problem that I have to solve. They weren't worried about coming at me for taxes before I had money.

• 57:57Speaker 03

  Now, they are asking for all of my receipts. There are things that happen, everything has a cost. And most people would sign up for the highs, of course. But there are lows in anything in life. And so, anytime anyone's giving their perspective, I just encourage people to have the grace to listen. Because we're all listeners. Professionally, we're listeners. We're talkers, but we're also all listening. You guys are all listening to me right now. Just listen a little bit. Because if you listen to what other people are saying, if you give people the space to tell you truly about their experience, why they're saying this. It's not that I'm saying I would trade what I look like, because I wouldn't. But there are things that have happened to me specifically because of what I look like,

• 58:42Speaker 03

  that you would not want to sign up for. I can assure you.

• 58:46Channing Crowder?

  Where great power comes great responsibility.

• 58:48Ryan Clark?

  The hard part...

• 58:48Channing Crowder?

  Were you talking to me?

• 58:49Ryan Clark?

  No, I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to the ladies.

• 58:51Channing Crowder?

  Oh, I'm sorry.

• 58:52Ryan Clark?

  The hard part, you know, the hard part in that is there are people who listen to me, right? When I get an opportunity to speak, who don't have the highs, though.

• 59:05Speaker 03

  What?

• 59:05Ryan Clark?

  Right? Like, the highs are not a guarantee. Right? The lows seem like the things we can count on. That there's gonna be something in life that's gonna be difficult. There's gonna be some sort of adversity that you're gonna have to go through. Right? Like, when you made the football analogy, I never thought about any of the rest of that stuff. I never thought about the pills. I never thought about the pain. I almost lost my life doing it. You know what I mean? Because to me, it was like, but look what I get to do every single week. Look how this has changed the trajectory of generations of Clarks because God gave me the opportunity to do this. Right? And so, I never looked at it that way.

• 59:49Ryan Clark?

  For people who don't necessarily get the highs, right? How do you... Because both of you guys are so intelligent, such great communicators. How do you manage that conversation? Because there are people who are listening and want to share in your experiences, who might not be able to share in that one. Who might be like, you know what? I wish I walked into a mother effin' room and everybody wanted to hit it. Like, there might be people who want that. Right? Because you get to control whether or not that happened. As some, as people who are looked up to, right? As people who have become role models, how do you manage some of the conversations like that one? That not, that maybe not everybody can relate to.

• 1:00:32Speaker 04

  Well, I think that with this specifically, almost everyone, and definitely every woman, can relate to what it is like to be seen and not heard.

• 1:00:42Ryan Clark?

  Okay.

• 1:00:43Speaker 04

  And for me, that's what comes up when we have this conversation about things like pretty privilege. I think so much of my career, what I look like has almost been distracting to people. So much so that my work has been minimized to what I look like. That when I'll do an interview and all the tweets are like, oh, they get in front of Taylor and they say whatever. Or I'll do an interview and all the comments are just talking about what I look like in the video. That is a form of taking away my voice, taking away the thing that I have worked very hard for because you are so focused on what I look like that you like physically cannot focus on anything else. And I think that women just know that experience is always being seen as a woman first and everything else second.

• 1:01:28Speaker 04

  You don't get to be seen for the job that you do well or the great friend that you are or the kind person you are. We see you first and we decide everything else after. So maybe you don't fully understand the lows of what it means to have the pretty privilege aspect of the conversation, but you certainly understand the lows of being reduced to just your physical and just your womanhood. And for me, that's kind of the common thread that that exists through not just this conversation, but all of our conversations. The relation comes through different degrees and different experiences. And like to Joy's point, when you think about, you know, people like, I would add on to Marilyn Monroe, like Dorothy Dandridge. I would add on like a Phyllis Hyman. I would add on Brooke Shields

• 1:02:13Speaker 04

  because I just watched her Pretty Baby documentary. What these women were like pleading for was just to be seen as something else. And I think everybody understands that want to be seen as something else. And that's why they would relate.

• 1:02:29Ryan Clark?

  I was having a conversation about you before we got here and the type of interviewer you are. I didn't really get into interviewing until this show. Like, I watch you, like, whether it's Thursday night or the things you post, you know, on your social, because I love the way you make everything conversational.

• 1:02:47Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:02:47Ryan Clark?

  It's not that people are opening up because of the way you look. I think they're opening up because you make them comfortable. Because I don't feel like you're attempting to get them to say something, so they say it. And I think that's what I've taken away from you as I watch people interview and try to continue to work on my craft. And with Joy, for sure, it's difficult to give your opinion. And I've worked with Jamelle, I think she was a pioneer in doing that. I think Mina is great at it as well, as you are. But I think for you guys, there's always gonna be that pushback. And that's all I would say to, before we end.

• 1:03:26Ryan Clark?

  How are you, or how have you managed the pushback with continuing to be your authentic self?

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  Well, none of these people are paying my bills. And if I wouldn't ask for your advice, then I don't value your criticism. Which doesn't mean that I don't appreciate people watching the show or supporting, and I love interacting with people and meeting new people and getting different perspectives. But everyone is not going to like you. Everyone's not gonna appreciate you, everyone is not gonna want to be around you. And that is not a unique experience to being on television. That is just life. You're not gonna be liked by everybody. It's not even a fun experience to try to have everybody like you. So, you're gonna get pushed back. As a woman, you're gonna get pushed back. As a black woman, you're gonna get pushed back.

• 1:04:19Speaker 03

  As an opinionated woman, you're gonna get pushed back. As a successful woman, as a woman that doesn't have kids, as a woman that is unmarried, as a woman that... The list goes on and on. You're always gonna have somebody who doesn't want to hear from you. But the good news is, there's always people that do. And in anything in life, there's just perspective in how you look at it. I'm not somebody who necessarily considers myself to be, like, super positive, but...

• 1:04:43Ryan Clark?

  You are not.

• 1:04:45Speaker 03

  Super positive, but man, like if the people that tried to break me in my life did not accomplish it.

• 1:04:54Ryan Clark?

  Yeah. That's rude.

• 1:04:57Speaker 03

  You don't have it in you.

• 1:04:58Ryan Clark?

  That's true.

• 1:04:59Speaker 03

  I promise you don't. I promise you're not built like that, and you shouldn't be because they're horrible. But I'm, I'm built different and I take great pride in that. And it's a lot to do with how I was raised. It's a lot to do with what I've seen. It's a lot to do with what I've chosen to go through life, carrying and not carrying. And, you know, I encourage people to lean into whatever that is for them. Some people are super, super positive and that works for them and I love that for them. Some people pour themselves into therapy, which we obviously do, but then, you know, rely deeply on prayer or whatever, whatever it is that you do. And it was unique to you, you should lean into. But yeah, there's always going to be, everyone gets pushed back, everyone.

• 1:05:44Speaker 03

  It is a universal experience. You said it, the lows are what everybody can agree on. Everyone doesn't experience the highs, but we all have lows. And that's usually where we all find each other.

• 1:05:54Ryan Clark?

  See, I want to change it up a little bit for you because she gave such a, a great answer on that. Like this experience in this show is actually such a different form and platform for you. What are you, because you kind of mentioned it early, like you're opening up and you're being vulnerable. What are you hoping that people learn about you through this experience? That's outside of their perception of Taylor Rook.

• 1:06:22Speaker 03

  I just want people to really understand that I am a complex person. And that I am, I am more than just the things that you have seen. I, we talked about it in the first episode. I think that what I have right now is more of a persona. And I don't know if people necessarily see me as a person. And to be completely honest, I think that that has maybe made it easier for people to objectify me because they aren't seeing me as a human.

• 1:06:48Speaker 04

  I want this show to show that I am a human, that I have gone through things, that I have things to say, that I have opinions, that I have experiences that have shaped me, that also lend to why I'm good at the job. I also want people to understand that like, that warm comfort that you see me create in interviews, that's genuinely my personality. Like, you are seeing a big part of what makes me me. And so I just want people to feel closer to me in like a very real way. And it is continuing to really grow. Like, everything that I have done, I have done at a very high level. I have no qualms about that. I do the NFL, the NBA.

• 1:07:31Speaker 04

  I have interviewed the top athletes in the world. I host, I anchor, I've done sideline. There has nothing that... Yeah, I have done everything. There is nothing that has come in front of me that I did not excel at. And I just see this as something else that is going to show people that I can do anything.

• 1:07:50Ryan Clark?

  I don't, obviously don't live either of your lives, right? I don't get the comments, I don't get the hate. From people that are in my proximity, from an industry standpoint, from a media standpoint, you are two of the most respected people I ever hear people talk about. Now, it's also because they know like I'm really black. You know what I mean? And so it's like, it's one of those things, you gotta be very careful what you say. But I just think just in having those conversations, the sort of respect that you guys have earned, I don't want that to go unnoticed for you. Like, I don't want you to both have to feel like you gotta just fight and fight and fight and fight for respect. Because there are people who actually understand what the hell you guys are doing,

• 1:08:35Ryan Clark?

  the scrutiny and the criticism in which you face, and how you guys overcome that in the way you work. And so I don't want y'all to leave here and be like, nah, they feel the same way, because I don't. You know, like, I'm huge fans of both of you. I mean, that's why I wanted both of you on the show, before even we got to do this. Is there anything else before you guys go that you want to share that we didn't get a chance to hit on?

• 1:09:00Speaker 03

  I don't think so.

• 1:09:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, I feel like we touched on it all.

• 1:09:02Speaker 03

  We have to come back so that we can get the Channing stories. I know, we actually didn't get anything crazy. Yeah, I was actually, I was very proud of you.

• 1:09:11Channing Crowder?

  Y'all got deep, y'all got too fucking deep, like they're talking about.

• 1:09:17Speaker 03

  I don't want to throw this in there.

• 1:09:19Channing Crowder?

  I'll put my little finger up so y'all start talking.

• 1:09:23Speaker 03

  We do have to come back and get some of those.

• 1:09:24Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, he does, he has, he has found, newfound handsomeness.

• 1:09:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:09:28Ryan Clark?

  In the last two years.

• 1:09:29Speaker 03

  You look good, Channing.

• 1:09:30Ryan Clark?

  So he really feels like, he really feels like he can relate.

• 1:09:33Speaker 03

  Pretty privileged.

• 1:09:34Ryan Clark?

  To what you girls go through.

• 1:09:35Channing Crowder?

  Listen, I was trying to tell him where great power comes with great responsibility. And we have to deal with looking like that.

• 1:09:42Speaker 03

  We do.

• 1:09:43Channing Crowder?

  Who I had to tell, who I had to tell, I had to tell, Michael Porter Jr. that, that's a big, pretty, light-skinned motherfucker, that boy.

• 1:09:49Ryan Clark?

  Channing, everybody says light skin's not handsome.

• 1:09:51Channing Crowder?

  I had to tell the little light-skinned boy in the corner from the Browns that.

• 1:09:55Ryan Clark?

  Denzel Ward.

• 1:09:56Channing Crowder?

  Denzel Ward.

• 1:09:57Speaker 03

  I just can't imagine how you talk to Jason in the locker room.

• 1:10:00Channing Crowder?

  That was a big, pretty, big.

• 1:10:01Speaker 03

  Cause Jason was the original, I mean, he was the new Regina.

• 1:10:05Channing Crowder?

  Quick story, I know y'all gotta go. When I went to a visit with Jason rookie year, early on, I used to walk right next to him, me and, me and Ronnie, we walked like with JT.

• 1:10:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a mistake.

• 1:10:15Channing Crowder?

  And it's a mistake because he gets all the attention. So about the third event, I started backing up about 30 yards, cause then JT would ig all the girls. And then as soon as he would ig a girl, I slide up on him and be like, yeah, JT's an asshole.

• 1:10:32Speaker 03

  You found a system.

• 1:10:33Channing Crowder?

  I found a system. And then they'd be like, Jason. And he'd be like, oh. And then he's looking mad with the face. I'd be like, yeah, JT's asshole, how you doing? Yeah, and I hit it in there too. I'd be like, yeah, so we was in the locker room the other day. Oh, you play too?

• 1:10:49Channing Crowder?

  Well, JT didn't even know how much, how much dates he got. I call it, I call it dates, how many dates JT got me. Yeah, he a asshole. Yeah, so, uh, in the locker room the other day, we were, uh...

• 1:11:02Speaker 03

  Listen, you have to work the system.

• 1:11:04Channing Crowder?

  Oh man, I figured that out. Boy, maximum part, I wouldn't even get it to him.

• 1:11:07Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, well, I appreciate you both. Best of luck.

• 1:11:10Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thank you guys for having us.

• 1:11:12Speaker 04

  Yes, truly, y'all are the best. Thank you.

• 1:11:14Ryan Clark?

  You guys were awesome. Just look forward to the rest of the conversations and I might start like my own little Instagram name and just be like, uh-uh, I do not agree. We do not need no friends.

• 1:11:27Speaker 03

  Put your name on it.

• 1:11:29Speaker 04

  I do, I do want to say really quick, because I'm just curious, like, do you all see, even through what we're talking about, how the opinions and conversations we are having are judged differently even by the opinions and conversations y'all have on this show?

• 1:11:41Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:42Speaker 04

  You see that?

• 1:11:42Ryan Clark?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:11:43Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:11:44Ryan Clark?

  I think, but I also, one, we don't have the depth in some of those, in some of those conversations, we don't have the depth of experience or information to have those, which is why you're needed. But there's also always a different level of judgment and you guys have layers of it. You guys have layers of minority, right? Women, women of color, women in the sports industry. Like, so I do, I do understand it, which is why I was so interested in how you navigate it, though. Because sometimes, like, you just want to click out, at least me, and I'm a guy, you know? Like, sometimes people say stupid stuff and I'm just like, just fight me then, you know?

• 1:12:23Channing Crowder?

  They can't say, you can't say just fight me.

• 1:12:25Ryan Clark?

  Because y'all damn wrong.

• 1:12:27Speaker 03

  I have told many people to drop the address. I was told to retire from doing that, but if I say drop the address, drop it. Drop it.

• 1:12:34Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, and see, like, you can't, Joy, you can't do that.

• 1:12:36Speaker 03

  Say who?

• 1:12:38Ryan Clark?

  You can't say this, though.

• 1:12:40Speaker 03

  Ryan, no one has ever dropped the address.

• 1:12:44Speaker 04

  For us, even now.

• 1:12:45Speaker 03

  No one's ever dropped it. Who would have done that? Ain't nothing to worry about.

• 1:12:47Ryan Clark?

  I told somebody, I definitely told.

• 1:12:48Speaker 03

  Don't worry about if I got hands. Don't worry about if I got a man and don't worry about if I got hands. And if I say drop the address, do exactly what she was gonna do, which was not drop the address.

• 1:12:55Channing Crowder?

  Julie got hands!

• 1:12:56Ryan Clark?

  I told somebody that used to work for Fox to drop the address. And then I saw him in person.

• 1:13:03Channing Crowder?

  Thanks, sister.

• 1:13:05Channing Crowder?

  Thank y'all so much.

• 1:13:06Ryan Clark?

  Round two. Round two. We appreciate you. Sure, thank you so much, love.

• 1:13:12Channing Crowder?

  Thank you.

• 1:13:13Ryan Clark?

  Thank you so much, Joe. Appreciate you finally making it happen. Way I want to take the picture.

• 1:13:17Channing Crowder?

  Oh yeah, what time is it?

• 1:13:42Speaker 06

  Every game day, you show up for your team. Now, it's your time.

• 1:13:53Speaker 06

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