Crate & Barrel: Gordon Segal (2017)

In 1962, Gordon Segal—with his wife Carole—opened a scrappy Chicago shop called Crate & Barrel. That store turned into a housewares empire that has shaped the way Americans furnish their homes. PLUS in our post-script "How You Built That," we check back with Ashlin Cook, whose love for dogs inspired her to create Winnie Lou: a Colorado business that sells healthy dog treats. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  Hey, it's Guy here. So back in the early 1960s, Gordon and Carol Segal borrowed a few thousand dollars to open a houseware store in an abandoned dumbwaiter factory. They were going to call it Barrel and Crate, but eventually decided on Crate and Barrel. It's an incredibly inspiring story, the kind of startup story that would never happen today. It first ran in February of 2017. Hope you enjoy it.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  Every store we opened between our opening in '62, our first built store in '65, our Plaza de la Casa store in '68, our Oakbrook store in '71, every time was betting the company.

• 0:41Guy Raz?

  Every time?

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Every time. And every time we knew if we failed, the company might go down.

• 0:53Guy Raz?

  From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

• 1:07Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and on today's show, the story of how Gordon Segal and his wife Carol built the housewares empire Crate and Barrel from one little scrappy storefront in Chicago, and how that single shop helped change the way we furnish our homes and apartments.

• 1:28Guy Raz?

  So there's probably a good chance that you have a piece of Ikea furniture somewhere in your house or apartment, and it probably looks pretty good, right? You know, nothing fancy, but functional, well-designed, kind of European-looking. And the main thing is, it's affordable. But back in 1961, if you wanted vaguely European-looking furniture, or plates, or whatever, in America, you had to be rich. And in 1961, Gordon Segal and his wife Carol were definitely not.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  We got married in the summer of '61. Now, for our wedding gifts, we really didn't get any of the kinds of things we loved. We'd shop the department stores and see beautiful Danske Designs and the new Danish look and whatever, and none of our relatives had the money or the taste to buy us those kind of wedding gifts.

• 2:21Guy Raz?

  So you just figured, we just can't afford that, so, yeah, so we'll just move on?

• 2:26Speaker 01

  That's right. So, we got married in, like I say, in June of 61, and we went on our honeymoon to the Caribbean. And in the Caribbean, we noticed there were some really nice stores. There was one Scandinavian store in the Virgin Islands. My wife picked up some of the items and said, "How can you have Danish 18-8 stainless at $2.95 a place setting? You know, it's so much more expensive in America." The Danish merchant there said, "We have salesmen from Europe come here, and we buy direct from factories." And the very essence of that common stuck in our minds as we bought a whole bunch of things. We got back to Chicago, and I was in the real estate business, she was teaching school. We were both sort of bored.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  And then, about in February of 62, one night, I was washing dishes, and I was, these dishes we had bought, I said, "You know, Carol, there had to be other young people like ourselves with good taste and no money. We should open a store."

• 3:23Guy Raz?

  And what did Carol say?

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Well, she looked at me, sort of like I was crazy. I said, "No, no, I mean it. We should open a store."

• 3:30Guy Raz?

  And you were young, you guys were like, what, 20?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  We were 23.

• 3:33Guy Raz?

  And you just thought, you know, we bought these beautiful things, these plates and cookware, this store in the Caribbean, and if they can do it, why not sell it in the US?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's right.

• 3:46Guy Raz?

  And what made you think, like, what gave you the confidence that you could pull off running a business?

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Because, you know, we had grown up, her family had actually been in the retail business, apparel business, and we were both very good at selling. Uh, my family been in the restaurant business and in all of those businesses, it's all about service, it's all about selling. And in a sense, my, you know, I grew up with an immigrant father and mother. And the whole family on busy days had to work in the restaurant. So there was this background that we both had and was, we loved beautiful things. Obviously, the motivation of going into business was to find beautiful things for other young people. But if we could buy things from Europe directly and just mark them up normally as if you bought them domestically,

• 4:34Speaker 01

  not take a big margin, but take a short margin. We could offer dramatically better pricing at more unique product, you know, that people had never seen before.

• 4:44Guy Raz?

  So, I mean, how did you even start?

• 4:46Speaker 01

  We thought about it and visited trade commissioners and we found they had all sorts of factory references.

• 4:53Guy Raz?

  They're trade, you went to trade commissioners, how'd you, how'd you find?

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Well, the Danish government would have a trade commissioner in every major city, the Swedish government would.

• 5:01Guy Raz?

  Wait, you went to like their offices in Chicago and you, and you were like, hey, we want to open up this Danish shop and can we, like, can we talk to you?

• 5:08Speaker 01

  That's right. That's exactly what we said.

• 5:10Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  And they had books about, you know, factories in Europe that made specific items like glassware. And they referred us to some people we might want to visit and gave us names of factories. And then we started, you know, where are we going to find a retail space? And we were driving around looking for anything. And finally, it so happened, my father mentioned to us, there was an area on Wells Street, North Wells Street, where there was an old dumb waiter factory that was actually moving. And I rented a space for three years for $350 a month.

• 5:53Guy Raz?

  So at that point, I mean, after you visited these trade reps and you decide, "Okay, we're gonna open a shop," how did you come up with the cash to do it? Did you have any, did you guys have any money?

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Well, we had saved, made a little money. We had some wedding gifts. So we had about $10,000. And we figured, well, we really need $20,000. And I spent six months running around to everyone I knew who had any wealth and offering them half the business for $10,000. There was no such thing as venture capital in those days. There was no such things as startups in those days. And I literally couldn't find anyone who'd invest $10,000.

• 6:33Guy Raz?

  You could have bought half of Crate and Barrel for $10,000 bucks in like 1963.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  That's right. At the end of the day, the only person who gave us the money was my father, who lent us $7,000. Probably all the money he had in cash.

• 6:47Guy Raz?

  Wow. So you have $17,000, which of course, I'm assuming you need to like order stuff to sell in that store, right?

• 6:55Speaker 01

  So we needed $10,000 for inventory and we only had $7,000 for, to build the store. And consequently, we had to come up with a clever way in taking this dirty old elevator factory and turning it into a Scandinavian feeling place. And the walls were all torn up and damaged and we couldn't afford someone to sheet rocket. So we went out and found a lumberyard where we found crating lumber, which we knocked up vertically on the walls and covered the walls. We literally did it ourselves.

• 7:28Guy Raz?

  And how did you guys identify the stuff that you wanted to sell? I mean, did you just go through the catalogs?

• 7:33Speaker 01

  That's right. Each factory, a glass factory would have maybe an inch and a half, two-inch catalog or a ceramics factory or whatever. And we were just ordering from these catalogs and having them ship the stuff. Maybe we had four dinnerware patterns. We had a very narrow selection of merchandise. We only had $10,000.

• 7:54Guy Raz?

  And what, like you were just like getting these huge crates of stuff delivered, like shipped to you in Chicago and you weren't even open yet?

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Still not open. It opened the 7th of December of 1962, but it took, we, we didn't get into the space till like November 15th. We only had about three weeks.

• 8:14Guy Raz?

  So you were like hammering boards to the wall?

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Hanging light fixtures, ordering a sign.

• 8:20Guy Raz?

  Were you working all night?

• 8:22Speaker 01

  We worked from early in the morning till late every night. And we were just enthusiastic. I mean, the, the value of being very young is you have a lot of energy and passion and no wisdom. And so being that young was a great advantage. And we had no children. We were 23. We had all the energy in the world. And because we had no money for fixtures, we basically turned over to packing crates. The merchandise was coming in. We came up with a way of stacking. We found some importer who had some more uniform crates. We had some big barrels full of china. And about two weeks before we were to open, we just still didn't have a name. And a friend of ours walked in and looked around. And I remember

• 9:07Speaker 01

  I was in the basement doing some paperwork and my wife came down and said, "Our friend suggested we call this place Barrel and Crate, but Gordon, maybe, maybe we should call it Crate and Barrel. I think that's better." And approximately two weeks before we opened the store, we named, named it Crate and Barrel.

• 9:25Guy Raz?

  So on opening day, what happened? How'd it go?

• 9:30Speaker 01

  It was the opening weekend and this area called Old Town had developed this, over a decade, this sort of week, the first week in December, they called it the Christmas Walk. And we opened that Friday of the Christmas Walk and we'd forgot to buy a cash register. And so we actually used a cigar box. And it wasn't till the following Monday or Tuesday that, actually, my father found an old, old NCR cash register, the ones you used after crank up to open the, the amount.

• 10:01Guy Raz?

  Was, was business pretty good, like, right away?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  We had calculated that we needed to do about a hundred thousand dollars to take out a hundred dollars a week to live on. And that first Christmas, we did eight thousand dollars.

• 10:14Guy Raz?

  So you're thinking, "We're well on our way to a hundred thousand dollar year."

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Because eight times 12 is 96.

• 10:20Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  But then January of 63 came along and we did $4,000. We got a little scared. And then February of 63, I remember, was probably one of the snowiest months in Chicago's history. And we had one day where we did $8 and the whole month was only $2,000.

• 10:37Guy Raz?

  Oh, man. So were you freaking out?

• 10:39Speaker 01

  We were very scared that we would lose my father's money in our savings. But you know what? When you're young, you know you could start over.

• 10:47Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Slowly, that spring came around. Old Town became more popular. They put gas lights up on the street. And people said, boy, did you see that counterculture store down on Well Street? They're selling nice things out of crates and barrels. And it was nice merchandise. And we had ended up, because we didn't know how to price merchandise, about half the product we sold, we sold at cost.

• 11:09Guy Raz?

  You were selling your product at cost?

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So not only were we importing it directly, the fact that we didn't know what we were doing and we were mispricing the merchandise also made it even more exciting.

• 11:20Guy Raz?

  How did that happen?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  We had some major vendors who hadn't gotten us the proper invoicing, so.

• 11:26Guy Raz?

  You were just guessing the price?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  We were guessing the price. And our customers loved it.

• 11:31Guy Raz?

  Thanks.

• 11:35Guy Raz?

  Hey, stay with us. We're going to be back in just a minute with more from Gordon Siegel and how he took Crate and Barrel National. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.

• 11:57Guy Raz?

  It's How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. And on the show today, we're talking with Gordon Segal about how he and his wife Carol built the retailer Crate and Barrel. So it seems that the business kind of took off pretty quickly, right? I mean, even though you had some tough months, it kind of took off.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Well, the first year we did a hundred thousand, we did end up at the end of the year doing a hundred thousand. The second year, two hundred, two twenty-five. The third year, three hundred thousand.

• 12:24Guy Raz?

  What was it like that in those early days that was making you guys successful? Did you have to kind of create a market for this stuff, or did people just come in and say, oh, this is cool, let's buy it?

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Well, what happened was we were very fortunate. One, you know, America was then getting wealthier in the early sixties, seventies. Two, there was a lady named Julia Childs that came along and made cooking fashionable. Three, jet travel was beginning, especially to Europe, and many more people were doing it. These events started all of a sudden making people aware of French cooking.

• 13:01Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  And it was a big difference in the way, you know, they looked at dining and food was very important, chefs were important. America in those days, cooking wasn't sure, it wasn't something people loved to do, and dining and serving on the dinner table. You know, I remember in Chicago in the early sixties, we had maybe three good restaurants. Boston, I remember Craig Claiborne was once asked when he was up in Boston, where do you, he was the food critic for the New York Times.

• 13:29Guy Raz?

  Yeah, for the New York Times, yeah.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Where do you go when you want a good meal? He says, I go to the airport and I get on the first flight to New York. And so, you know, it's hard to believe that today because Boston and Chicago got great restaurants, because people now, there's a major food culture and dining culture, and that didn't exist when we were starting.

• 13:49Guy Raz?

  And did you, because I think I read that at a certain point, you and Carol decided that instead of like, just ordering from catalogs, that you should actually go to Europe and visit factories?

• 14:00Speaker 01

  That's right. The first year, nineteen sixty-three, our first full year in business, we didn't have time to go to Europe. But nineteen sixty-four, we went to Europe for three weeks. By then, we had two or three staff members, and we left the company to them. And we went and we traveled all over Europe. We started in Belgium and found a great glass factory. We went to the German trade fairs in Cologne and Frankfurt and found all sorts of interesting products. It was incredible. Nothing like that existed in the United States. We spent a lot of time walking the streets and seeing special stores and looking at stores and seeing what were they doing in Europe? Why were we so excited? What was it? It was the visual display, it was the way they used color, it was the way they did

• 14:45Speaker 01

  the storefront, it was the way they did their lighting. And we became students of retail. And Carol, by the way, the company never would have succeeded without her efforts. She was not only talented in helping select product, but she was very talented at visual display. And we were both very good at selling.

• 15:04Guy Raz?

  So when you were in Europe, were there any, like, were there moments where, you know, you're, because you were like in your mid twenties? Did you ever have situations where these factory owners looked at you and said, you guys are, who are you? You know, right?

• 15:17Speaker 01

  There were many people who had doubts, but, you know, we had letters of credit, we had ability to buy. We found us an agent in Sweden who was, knew a lot of people who helped us introduce us to factories. And I don't, you know, they believed in us. We met Torben Orsko in Copenhagen, who introduced us to Mare Mekko and introduced us to a lot of Danish factories. And he sold us beautiful product, also wooden things and textiles and leather goods. And this guy influenced our lives. He and his wife remained friends for the next 50 years.

• 15:57Guy Raz?

  So how did you guys start to, like, really grow the business? Because you didn't have outside investors at this point, right?

• 16:04Speaker 01

  We never had outside investors until the, you know, many years later.

• 16:08Guy Raz?

  So how were you guys able to expand without any outside money?

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Well, we basically, in those days, you'd go to a bank and you'd borrow money. I remember our first loan was $10,000, the second loan was $25,000. When we opened the store in 65 through 68, we still had only one store. We were doing $500,000, which like today is like a little store doing $2 million. So it was profitable by then.

• 16:32Guy Raz?

  So when you guys decided to open that second store, this was 1968, is that right?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:38Guy Raz?

  So then you got a bank loan and in a way you were, I mean, I guess you were betting the company, right? Because you, I mean, with that leverage, if the second store failed, the whole thing would go under.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Every store we opened, between our opening in 62, our first built store in 65, our Plaza de Lagos store in 68. Our Oakbrook store in 71, every time was betting the company.

• 17:02Guy Raz?

  Every time?

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Every time. And every time we knew if we failed, the company might go down. And then in 1975, we got the opportunity to open our first Michigan Avenue store. And if we failed here, that would certainly, we had to invest a lot of money, take a big risk. But that store opened in 1975, and after three months, we knew it was very successful. And from then on, the pressure was a lot less. Then it wasn't betting a company because by then, you know, we were doing enough volume and creating enough profits. But we didn't want partners. We didn't want investors.

• 17:38Guy Raz?

  Why not?

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Well, because we felt they would have different motivation. We loved being merchants. We loved talking to customers, loved inspiring staff, and we loved searching for the product. Our goal wasn't to build a chain store. Our goal was to find the best merchandise at the best price that would excite our customers and excite our staff about what we were doing.

• 18:01Guy Raz?

  So I was reading about, about the expansion of the company, and I guess it took like 25 years for you guys to go from one store to 17 stores.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:10Guy Raz?

  Which was in 1985.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 18:12Guy Raz?

  But then, but then by like 1995, you had expanded to 60 stores. So what, like, what happened? How did you guys, why did you decide to grow so much faster?

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Well, we reached a different era where it was important to have scale, to do the things we had to do with buying merchandise. So you had a guarantee to a factory, you'd buy a certain amount of a product to make sure we were the only people in the United States that would be carrying it. And you got a sense that you needed scale to get there, and that's what we started doing. In 1990, we built a flagship store in Chicago, which really helped launch our expansion because then every landlord, every shopping mall wanted a crate and barrel building. And we were a big attraction because we drew in a lot of customers. And what happened, starting in that big expansion, was landlords started

• 19:03Speaker 01

  paying for a lot of the build out of the store, the building of the building and whatever. So our, we didn't have to take as much of our financial risk ourselves because the landlords built these stores, a lot of these stores for us.

• 19:18Guy Raz?

  So it sounds like things were going pretty well for you without having any outside investors. So what made you decide to eventually bring in outside money? Like, what was your thinking when you made that decision?

• 19:30Speaker 01

  I had thought by the time I was 65, I was then about 60, I said, I'd probably want to retire. And some intelligent guy had said, you know, if you're going to sell your business, do it five years before you retire, so you can help the transition and whatever. And I owned the responsibility to both my family and to my staff to make sure the company was well-financed and could take risks and could go through trauma and survive. And I also realized that at that time, the company was relatively very strong at retail, but relatively weak in direct marketing, which at those days was catalogs.

• 20:10Guy Raz?

  Catalogues, yeah.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  And we actually spent a year and a half looking around the world for a partner. And we finally found Auto, the Auto Group in Hamburg, Germany. And they were the second-largest mailer to company in Europe. And today, they're, after Amazon, they're the biggest internet company in the world. And in 98, we sold them about two-thirds of the company. And 10 years later, and the contract was for 10 years, we sold them the rest of the third.

• 20:42Guy Raz?

  So in 98, you agreed to stay on for a fixed amount of time and to continue to run the company?

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Exactly. Their basic philosophy was to acquire businesses like ours and let the management continue running it. And our success was we tripled the size of the company, we quintupled the profits of the company, and we were able to grow. But more important, they, after we were with them a year or two, they said, you've got to really look into this internet. This was, what was it, 99, 2000? And we said, what's the internet? And then they started telling us. And early on, then, we started developing our internet business, which today represents about 38% of all the sales at Crate and Barrel. And customers buy an enormous amount of furniture on the internet, which is hard for me to, you know, believe.

• 21:35Guy Raz?

  So when you had to step down, was that hard for you? Like this thing that you built?

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Well, of course, it's hard. You know, I didn't realize I'd have that much energy left at 70, but I had enormous energy. But in the last two, three years, I've been doing things in our family office of finding new young entrepreneurs we could support. And when I advise young people today, I said, "Look at the job and say, 'You're gonna love it, and is it gonna be something you can devote your life to and work 10, 12 hours a day and work six, seven days a week.'" I mean, then you'll be a success, but don't go to do something because of a salary or a title. And I think that's the thing we picked up from the European friends of ours who, you know, have a different pace of life and a different focus. And, you know, that's how it should be. It shouldn't be, "I want to make a lot of money. How do I do it?"

• 22:25Speaker 01

  It's, "What do I love to do? And if I do it really good, then we will make money."

• 22:30Guy Raz?

  How much of your success do you attribute to just your talent and your smarts and your hard work? And how much do you attribute to luck?

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Well, the lucky part was our timing. It was just that the appropriate time to be going to Europe to find new contemporary design and tabletop and furniture and things. I think it was a talent of attracting people and making them feel like we were all in it together that I didn't realize I had, nor did I realize I was good at for many, many years. But I was. And I think that had a lot to do with it. I was lucky to be married to Carol Siegel, who had this enormous talent. And, you know, we started out to create something that was gonna be different and beautiful and wonderful. This is still in the culture at the company in great depth, and they're still doing very well.

• 23:23Guy Raz?

  You know, could you ever have imagined, like, when you opened up this thing in Chicago in a disused elevator factory with boards that you hammered into the walls, that this company would be doing sales of... What are Crate and Barrel's numbers today?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  It's about 1.2 billion a year. We went from one employee and now to 7,000.

• 23:42Guy Raz?

  Could you ever have imagined that?

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Never, never, ever.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  We didn't have a plan. We had no ambition to do that. We just had ambition to love what we were doing.

• 23:51Guy Raz?

  I still have, from when I graduated college and moved to my first apartment, my mom bought me a set of flat, white, Crate and Barrel dinner plates. They were made in Japan at the time. I still have them. Still serve dinner on them.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  Well, that's our problem. You replace cars every two, three years. You have dinner where for 20 years, you know, people tell me they have product they bought in the 60s and 70s. And I wince.

• 24:26Guy Raz?

  That's Gordon Segal from our interview back in 2017. He officially stepped down as CEO of Crate and Barrel about a decade ago. And by the way, the brand is still doing pretty well. Despite competition from Amazon and Wayfair and the big box stores, the company says its sales have gone up over the past few years. And next summer, Gordon and Carol will celebrate 59 years of marriage.

• 24:55Guy Raz?

  And please do stick around because in just a moment, we're going to hear from you about the things you're building. Hey, thanks for sticking around because it's time now for how you built that. And today, we're updating a story that we first ran about a year ago. And this one starts in Florida with Ashlin Cook and her dog.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  So my dog's name is Winston, and he is a German short-haired pointer. He is liver-colored.

• 25:18Guy Raz?

  Anyway, Ashlin was working in Miami in the fashion business, and she met a guy named Dean who also had a pointer.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  We started hanging out and running with our dogs, taking the dogs to the beach, and eventually it turned into more.

• 25:32Guy Raz?

  Ashlin and Dean and the dogs, Winston and Louis, bonded. And eventually, the humans in the story started dating. Now, things were going great, but then, in 2018, Dean got a job offer in Boulder, Colorado. So Ashlin decided that might be a sign to get out of Miami and head to the mountains. So the four of them, two humans, two dogs, relocated. And Ashlin had to figure out what to do next.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  I really wanted to do something on my own. I had had the entrepreneurial bug for over a year at that point, and I knew I wanted to do something with dogs, but with a little twist. So we had bounced ideas off of each other for dog food. And honestly, I just thought of a food truck for dogs just came out of my mouth. And we looked at each other like, is that a thing?

• 26:21Guy Raz?

  Well, it turns out, food trucks for dogs were sort of a thing. There were a few scattered across the country, but nothing in Colorado. So Ashlin and Dean pooled together their savings. They got a loan from Ashlin's dad, and they bought a custom-built trailer that looks like one of those vintage models from the 1950s.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  They have that iconic paint job where half of the bottom is a different color, and it has that canned ham shape with the rounded edges.

• 26:49Guy Raz?

  And after she ordered the trailer, Ashlin got together with a local chef to come up with a bunch of recipes for healthy dog treats with no salt, no sugar, no fillers. And Winston, Ashlin's pointer?

• 27:02Speaker 02

  He was a good taste tester for us because he is a picky dog of finding out, like, okay, he really liked this one. He didn't like this one. I remember I tried to make a dried banana treat, but he would put it in his mouth and spit it out. So I realized, okay, Winston does not like bananas.

• 27:20Guy Raz?

  But Winston did like some of the other treats Ashlin came up with. Pumpkin apple spice cookies, zucchini squash biscuits, and one of his favorites, bison burger jerky.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  It is made with just three ingredients: ground bison, which we do source from a local bison ranch, cranberries, and organic flax seeds.

• 27:39Guy Raz?

  And I know, this stuff sounds like food you might order at one of those farm-to-table restaurants, right? But of course, Ashlin's target demographic was just dogs. And the dog-centric nature of her business actually proved to be a problem when she started to apply for the permits she needed to launch the truck.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  The most challenging part was defining ourselves as a new category. A lot of the cities would say, well, we only- Allow food trucks for humans. Other cities would say, well, no one's ever come to us with that type of business before. We have no idea how to define you guys. So we ended up going the route of just full on getting all the permits of a human food truck.

• 28:21Guy Raz?

  And finally, last June, Ashlin started parking the truck at breweries, dog parks, and farmers markets all around Boulder. And since then, things have been going great. The treats were popular and a major sign of customer buying? A lot of the dogs started to recognize the truck.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. They will literally jump up to the counter with their two front legs and stand up at the counter. It is hysterical.

• 28:49Guy Raz?

  The company is called Winnie Lou, its name for Ashlin's dog Winston and Dean's dog Louie. When we first spoke to Ashlin, her treats were sold online and in six stores in Colorado. And today, they're in 150 independently owned pet stores across the country. If you want to find out more about Winnie Lou or hear previous episodes, head to our podcast page, howibuiltthis.npr.org. And of course, if you want to tell us your story, go to build.npr.org. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please do give us a review. You can also write to us at [email protected].

• 29:31Guy Raz?

  And if you want to send a tweet, it's at howibuiltthis or at Guy Raz. Our show was produced this week by Casey Herman with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Thanks also to Candace Lim, Julia Carney, Sanaz Meshkhanpour, Niva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Our intern is Sequoia Carrillo. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.