How To Date: How to meet someone

Elizabeth and Mel get into the exciting, terrifying and sometimes overwhelming world of how on earth to meet someone. We discuss online dating and IRL encounters and how to navigate it all without losing our self-esteem. Our guest this week is the brilliant Sharmaine Lovegrove, whom many of you might already know as one of the hosts of our previous podclass, How To Write A Book. Sharmaine went through a marital separation in her early 40s and threw herself into the apps. She joins us to share her many anecdotes and first-hand accounts of dating/meeting people post-break-up. Plus: what it means to attract what you put out into the world and how to stay resilient when facing the rejection that is an inevitable part of dating. After you’ve listened, you can get all the resources and worksheets discussed at www.thepodclass.co.uk Mel and Elizabeth are on a mission to revolutionise the world of dating! We want to make it a safe, fun and rewarding experience for everyone. If you’d like to join us, we’ve put together our very own How To Date Good Dating Pledge, consisting of 10 simple ‘Dating Commandments’. Have a look and sign up for free now at www.thepodclass.co.uk If you don’t want to wait each week for new episodes join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad free, all at once. Follow the link to sign up: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/ A Daylight and Sony Music Entertainment Production. _______________________________________________________________________ Morrisons terms & conditions More Card T&C’s: https://www.morrisons.com/more/terms-and-conditions/ General T&C’s https://groceries.morrisons.com/content/terms-and-conditions?srsltid=AfmBOor2xSfFNVtu22I9z5plcQkO6kId8jZ3NSdAF4X4Mt8JQkhO_ylQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

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• 1:27Elizabeth Day?

  How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrison's.

• 1:33Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How to Date, the podclass that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day.

• 1:42Speaker 03

  And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach, and every week, we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life.

• 1:52Elizabeth Day?

  And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, please join our wonderful community of subscribers, where you can binge all episodes now, ad-free, all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes.

• 2:08Elizabeth Day?

  Mel, welcome back.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you. Let's go for round two.

• 2:13Elizabeth Day?

  I know, we've got a big old topic today.

• 2:15Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 2:16Elizabeth Day?

  This is the episode where we are discussing how to meet someone, both on the apps and in real life. And actually, because we're professionals in this podclass studio, I'm going to start off with a little bit of statistical research.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  Let's go deep.

• 2:32Elizabeth Day?

  Which is about the phenomenon of online dating. So you and I are both old enough to remember a world in which apps didn't exist, mobile phones didn't exist. And the phenomenon of dating was very much like you had to call someone's landline, you had to arrange with Mrs. Whoever to meet someone at a cinema. And if you didn't turn up, there was no recourse to that. You couldn't tell anyone you were running late. And that has massively shifted. There's been such a big move towards online dating. So a study by Stanford University of heterosexual couples recently conducted showed that in 1995, just 2% of people met their partners online.

• 3:15Elizabeth Day?

  In 2017, that had risen to 39%. And now, in 2024, 60.67% met online.

• 3:25Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 3:25Elizabeth Day?

  Which, so well over half. We're almost going into 70%, three quarters of people meeting online.

• 3:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:32Elizabeth Day?

  So we are going to spend a big old chunk of this episode talking about that. And we're going to start, aren't we, Mel? With our own experiences.

• 3:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:42Elizabeth Day?

  Because we met our husbands online.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  We both did.

• 3:45Elizabeth Day?

  Talk to me about meeting Gareth on eHarmony and whether you immediately knew that there was something different about him.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  Hmm. Probably the first thing to talk about is the photos that he used on his profile. Because this is a big topic. You know, when we're talking about online dating, the question always comes up, which photos do I use? What do I withhold? What do I show? And for him, the thing that grabbed me, and I guess that cut through all the noise, was humour. And he demonstrated that through hilarious photos. It was one of him and another guy at Oktoberfest in Germany, both biting the other end of a hot dog. I know, I'm doing this with my hands and it's looking quite phallic and revolting.

• 4:33Elizabeth Day?

  This will be a social media clip.

• 4:37Speaker 03

  And I found that funny. There was another one with, I mean, once you get to know Gareth, you'll know at any opportunity he'll show off his biceps because they are quite spectacular. So there was one of him blowing up his bicep like this, as though he's blowing it up like a balloon. And so I just, I saw the humour in this guy. He was obviously gregarious and fun and didn't take himself too seriously. So that was the first thing that cut through the noise. So that's a really good tip, I think, for people. If sense of humour is something that's important to you, don't show photos of you being all straight laced and serious, you know, allow those characteristics to come through.

• 5:17Elizabeth Day?

  I think that's such a good point about the photos being a helpful window into someone's personality. My experience of dating on the apps, so I became single in my late 30s and dating had seismically changed, as we've just heard, within that time. And I was quite strategic about how I went about it. So I signed up to everything. I say strategic, I basically just like threw myself into it.

• 5:49Speaker 03

  I think that's a scatter gun.

• 5:50Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. And I did have to get over a little bit of initial resistance because of the culture that I'd grown up in, where it was still seen as slightly shameful wrongly to have met someone online. But that's when I came of age. And I remember talking to my friend and her saying, but actually, it's even more romantic if you think about it, meeting someone on the apps, because it's so intentional. The one that worked for me eventually was Hinge. But I want to talk about the things that I did wrong first. So I think I had just come out of a relationship with a younger man. And in my head, I think I wanted to replicate that again. And I think I was resistant to the idea of being older, partly because

• 6:31Elizabeth Day?

  of the fears that it prompted in me about my biological clock ticking and would anyone really be interested? And I think I set my age parameters too young and too limited. There was a judgment there inherent. I was like a judgmental about what an older man might be like, because I am cis hetero woman, so I was looking for men. And I had some really rough experiences on Bumble and OK Keep it. On Bumble, I matched with a machete wielding little person.

• 7:01Speaker 03

  No.

• 7:01Elizabeth Day?

  That was his profile photo. He was wielding a machete and he was wearing a sort of magician's, like a, like a black tie, but without the tuxedo jacket. Anyway, finally, I downloaded Hinge and it worked for me. But Justin was the first and only person that I matched with on Hinge, who I then went on a date with. And I had changed my parameters by then. I had made them slightly older and I had said that I didn't mind dating people with children. And what really struck me about Justin was that his photos were not what I was used to, in that they were incredibly unvain. But when I met him in real life, I thought, gosh, he's so much more handsome than his photos made him appear.

• 7:46Elizabeth Day?

  But actually, there's something so nice about that. But I had to be open minded to that. And actually, that's something that I would love to say to listeners, that it is so helpful to be open minded. And the thing that he liked about my profile was that I had used the F word. It's not the only thing he liked, because I love swearing. And I think that there's a lesson there, not about being potty mouthed, but about being brave enough to show up as yourself and being appreciated for that by the right person.

• 8:18Speaker 03

  Yes. And that may have screened some guys out.

• 8:22Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly.

• 8:22Speaker 03

  Who would have been judgmental and said it was potty mouth.

• 8:25Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 8:26Speaker 03

  And that's good, because they're not your guys.

• 8:28Elizabeth Day?

  It's interesting that we've landed on this word judgmental again.

• 8:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:31Elizabeth Day?

  Because I think I was very, very judgmental for a long time. And part of that is about being judgmental of myself, too, being highly self critical. And actually, I had to become less judgmental and more open minded to find my person on the apps.

• 8:48Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh, me too. I was so judgmental. And as I mentioned in the previous episode, I was smug.

• 8:55Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 8:56Speaker 03

  When I stepped into the dating pool. So that's even beyond judgmental.

• 9:02Elizabeth Day?

  Just quickly, before we move on to our fantastic guest, what about older daters? So we've had lots of messages from people in their 60s who maybe have been sadly widowed, or they've been through a divorce, and they're looking to find someone, but they see apps as a sort of young person's game. What would you say to them?

• 9:23Speaker 03

  Firstly, I'd say, well, it's not. It's everyone's game. But I totally understand the fear and apprehension around it. So this is where nieces, nephews, grandkids can come in handy. So if you just look at the tech side of it, that is just a skill you can learn, or something you can have someone holding your hand through. So I'd say, get some help from the younger generation to just step you through what you need to know, even if you have to write it down in longhand, you know, step by step, just so that the technical side of it doesn't feel so daunting. Because then you can free up that brain space to focus on the good stuff, the important stuff.

• 10:04Elizabeth Day?

  Great advice. And actually, we will return again and again on this podcast, the idea of a trusted friend or confidant. And I think they can really help at this stage, too. They can help as well by looking at your profile, saying, actually, you're coming across a bit like this.

• 10:20Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 10:20Elizabeth Day?

  And I know you, and you're not like that. So let's work on how to portray the truest version of yourself online.

• 10:27Speaker 03

  Really important.

• 10:33Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, You learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable so you can live

• 11:16Elizabeth Day?

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• 11:33Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, I'm super excited because to help us unpack all of this today, we're going to be joined by none other than Charmaine Lovegrove, who is a familiar voice to many because as an esteemed publisher and a dear friend of mine, she was of course, one of the hosts of our previous podcast, How to Write a Book. Now, you might not think that there's a lot of overlap between book writing and dating, but there is because Charmaine went through a marital separation in her early 40s. And after that, she downloaded the apps for the first time and began to date again. She has a wealth of experience she's going to share with us today. Welcome my darling Charmaine to How to Date.

• 12:15Speaker 04

  Hi, great to be here. This is so exciting to talk about this subject.

• 12:20Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, we're so excited to have you and you're joining us from your home in Berlin. So thank you for making the time. Now, I was lucky enough to get a blow by blow description. Sometimes literally, no, of your, of your dating safari. But talk to us a little bit about how you felt approaching the apps in the aftermath of your marital separation. You're in your early 40s. What did the apps represent for you at that stage?

• 12:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it was so interesting because I'm 43 and I started using them around 41, 42. And so I'd never dated like that. I was a bit nervous about, you know, being black, being curvy, having had three children and sort of not being stereotypical, especially in Germany where I live, and feeling like I look different to people. My sense of humour, like I am very British and very Jamaican, like I'm very, very South London. And so I kind of thought about all of these things, which was actually really helpful as a way of kind of figuring out. Who am I? It's like I felt like I had to know myself. So it helped me to understand

• 13:33Speaker 04

  that I was ready for the apps because I knew that I could answer these questions immediately.

• 13:39Elizabeth Day?

  Because we spoke about that in the last episode, didn't we Mel, about dating yourself first?

• 13:44Speaker 03

  Uh huh. And are you ready? And I love what you're saying there, Charmaine, about knowing who I am and therefore entering into the dating world in an informed way. That's so important.

• 13:56Elizabeth Day?

  So Charmaine, talk to us about which apps you used and which ones you researched, because I know there was a lot of research.

• 14:05Speaker 04

  There was a lot of research. Obviously, I went to Hinge first because that's where you met your amazing husband. And then I also had heard about this sex positive app called Field and Tinder. So on Tinder, what was really interesting was that just they don't really seem to have an algorithm. So everybody and their dog, which by the way, dogs in pictures show that you're a really caring, lovely, wonderful person. And so people love seeing dogs in their pictures as a tip and any animals, but not fish and not lions.

• 14:45Elizabeth Day?

  Not fish, yes, that's been actual research.

• 14:47Speaker 04

  And not lions, okay? But everyone just seemed to be on there. And I was just like, this is just too confusing. I didn't feel ready to be in a relationship, but I knew I wanted to have experiences that were intimate, sexual and fun. So Field was my playground of choice.

• 15:06Speaker 03

  Can I just jump in and signpost something really important that you've identified there that I think our listeners could really relate to? You were very clear about what you wanted from this dating phase in your life. And I love that you said, I didn't want a serious relationship. I just wanted to have some great experiences with different people. And I think this is really, really key for, you know, people when they're stepping into the apps or even IRL dating to say to themselves, what do I want to get out of this process so that you choose the right tactics and ultimately the right people? So good on you. You knew that. That was very intuitive for you by the sound of it.

• 15:43Elizabeth Day?

  Can I ask, before we get back to field, which I want to dig into, forgive the pun, but if you are coming out of some kind of loss or relationship breakdown, as I was, as Charmaine was, but if it's had a really negative impact on you and your sense of self, if you're struggling to know yourself or be confident on that level, how do you navigate the apps? Is your answer, Mel, that you probably shouldn't, that you should take a bit of time first?

• 16:15Speaker 03

  You know exactly where I'm going with this, don't you? I mean, what you're describing there is someone who's not date-ready, I would say. And it doesn't mean, you know, never go to the apps. I think the apps are always going to be a good option when you're at the stage where you're ready for that. But I guess one of the things that we all need to call out here is online dating is a game of rejection, ultimately. If you look at the numbers, you know, the vast majority of the encounters you have may lead to disappointment, whether that's being rejected or rejecting someone else. So it does take a level of resilience to do it well and to look after yourself in the process. So I think if you are still really wobbly,

• 16:57Speaker 03

  I would suggest maybe still looking at the apps, maybe exploring, dipping your toe in, but perhaps not showing yourself yet.

• 17:04Elizabeth Day?

  And we will talk more about rejection later in this episode because I think you're so right that that is, it would be really great to have some practical comforting tips that can get us through those inevitable moments. Charmaine, let's come back to field because I'd never heard of field until you told me about it. What was it about field that appealed to you?

• 17:28Speaker 04

  So I just felt like in my twenties, I'd had a lot of sex with a lot of people from just like meeting them in a bar and then kissing them and then going home with them. And I had no idea what they were interested in, what I, they had no idea what I was interested in. Actually, we didn't really care. You know, but I'd had a very great sexual relationship with my husband and so I didn't wanna go back to having bad sex of my twenties. So the idea that there was a space where I could be really specific, but also open about what I wanted and find people that were compatible. And then, you know, if you're looking for an emotionally intelligent person, of somebody with high EQ.

• 18:09Speaker 04

  Then people who are already able to talk about sex, desire, intimacy, you're already like halfway there. And and there's a really good big difference to me between compatibility and chemistry. And so the chemistry is kind of what you need to get you into bed. And then the compatibility is what you need on the like physical dates and then like spending time with friends and family is what develops a relationship. And the sort of intersect of those things is what actually makes a great relationship. So I wanted to foreground chemistry and, you know, if compatibility came, then like I would be really lucky. And then, listen, this app has a literary magazine.

• 18:49Speaker 04

  It just seemed like a really good space for me because they were already saying this is gonna be people who are thinking. So it's kind of the thinking person's sex app.

• 19:00Elizabeth Day?

  Interesting. And can I ask how your sexual identity plays into this?

• 19:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I'm bisexual and I spent most of my twenties with women. And then I sort of started dating men just before I met my husband, ex-husband. And so literally field was just, I mean, it was just so great because I could just. I could see that there were so many different people who were bi and and I could see all these different genders and sexualities. And I think there's like twenty seven and it's just fascinating and you just feel like. Not all of these people could be my people, but I'm really, really glad that they exist. And also, living and working, you know, my work is around inclusion. So to be on an app that was heralding and, you know, celebrating inclusion in a sexual form.

• 19:52Speaker 04

  Was just like really mind blowing to me. So it was clear that it's something that I needed to be um part of. It was like, I need, who who knew? And then as soon as I knew, I was like, thank God for this.

• 20:08Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I think that covers a very good point, which is not only are apps the concept new, but there are new apps being developed all of the time. And it could be that when you're in this process and you're finding that you're not getting the matches or the responses that you would like to get from one app, it is worth exploring others because it's not you, it's about finding the place that is right for you. And there are many others. So Thursday, that's the app where you have to meet up in person, I think. There's Raya, which is dating for people with public profiles, where you have to go through a selection process. Fun fact, they rejected me when I first applied. How dare they? How dare they?

• 20:52Elizabeth Day?

  I mean, I had no profile to be fair, but my friend Tess was like, oh, they'll have you. Anyway, they didn't, they never got back to the email. And then some years later, I got an email from like their head of client base or whatever saying, we'd like to invite you onto Raya. And I was like, it's too late, babe. I've met and married someone I met on Hinge. So Yaboo sucks. Anyway, there's Grindr, which is a gay dating app. There's obviously eHarmony where you met your Gareth. And I've just heard of a new one. Producer Harry told me of a new one called Breeze, where you match. Have you heard of this show, mate?

• 21:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have heard of it. I actually realised the other day when I was going through that I downloaded it just like a few weeks ago.

• 21:31Elizabeth Day?

  So if that's one where you match, then you're not allowed to chat over text. You get a limited number of profiles to see per day. And once you match, that's an instant date. You give your availability and they plan the date and location for you. And that's also the point that you pay. You pay for Breeze tokens for this date and that gets you a drink when you're at the bar. If you cancel, it incurs a penalty. So it's kind of like a fine.

• 21:59Speaker 03

  I mean, it's it's quite outrageous.

• 22:02Elizabeth Day?

  It's good income generation.

• 22:03Speaker 03

  Absolutely. It's a good business model. But there's part of me that can see the merit in that because I think so many people get bogged down in the back and forth of messaging, which can only lead to unrealistic expectations and often disappointment.

• 22:19Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 04

  Which is where I go back to the chemistry compatibility debate, right? The endless talking can set you up for two things. One, for catfishing, there are catfishers out there, you know, and I feel bad for them. You look how many apps you just listed, Elizabeth, and it's so great that there's somebody out there for everybody, right? So you can be yourself. So the idea that you then would pretend not to, I just think is is just a really is really awful for many different reasons. And then I think the second thing about the kind of talking too much is that you sort of build up this weird picture and then you get really excited and you think you're really compatible and then you don't allow for the chemistry to shine through. And so then you sort of set yourself up for a fail.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  So I just think like knit the talking in the bud, get on the date, see what happens, keep it moving.

• 23:07Elizabeth Day?

  And if you can't get on the date, this used to happen to me a lot, where there'd be endless banter, and I'm I'm good at that. I'll blow my own trumpet and I'll say I'm good at the flirty texts. I have a sense of humour, so that and I enjoy writing, like I enjoy being understood through the means of words. So that could go on for a really long time and sometimes it would never translate into a date because the guy would just disappear. And I think I would say try not to lose heart at that stage and that, again, it's about weeding out the person who is not worthy of you and someone who is not worthy of you is someone who cannot translate the flirty banter into a real life exchange.

• 23:48Elizabeth Day?

  And I think that separation of compatibility and chemistry is a very useful one, Charmaine, for identifying that. Before we get on to how we should build a profile, I want to give you a bit more scientific research, which is about those algorithms that you mentioned, Charmaine. So apps behave differently for different people and some of the algorithms are incredibly.

• 24:10Elizabeth Day?

  They're sort of kept top secret. So for instance, Tinder, when it first launched, used the Elo rating system, which is an algorithm created for chess competitions. So a win, a swipe right, would increase the person's score, and a loss, a swipe left, would lower it. Tinder then calculated user scores based on that, and it matched users with people who had similar scores. So if you had four losses, you would be matched with another person who had four losses. If you had four wins, the same thing would happen. But they are now vocal, they no longer use that algorithm, and we don't quite know how they go about matching their users. Hinge is one of the only dating apps that has actually been open about the algorithm it uses.

• 24:54Elizabeth Day?

  They use the Gale Shapley algorithm, which is a classic algorithm for any matching scenario. It's actually been used to match medical students with hospitals for their residencies, as well as organ donors to recipients. And that's because it doesn't just look at what you like, but it also takes into account who is likely to like you back. So over time, the algorithm learns who you are, who you send comments to, who you're having conversations with, and that informs it for greater matching precision. What are some of the things that we should be looking at doing when it comes to creating profiles? We've spoken about the need for authenticity, and the kind of need to know who you are first.

• 25:37Elizabeth Day?

  What about having a checklist in terms of who you're looking for? A good or a bad idea, Mel?

• 25:46Speaker 03

  It depends how it's constructed. I think it is so critical to use your profile as a screening tool. So screening in people, but also screening out people. So this is where I would encourage people to be a little bold, and to actually put their deal breakers up front. So for example, if you have a need to become a parent, don't be afraid to put that on your profile. Because you don't want to actually date people who don't want children. You know, that's got to be something to... To really hang your hat on and be proud of. Or if it's absolutely critical that you have the freedom to continue travelling. For example, you don't want to be with a homebody who never wants to leave the house.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  So if you have those really clear deal breakers, put them front and centre.

• 26:35Elizabeth Day?

  On Married at First Sight, MAFS, well, there are very often people who will say, oh, they're not my type. That, and that happens a lot on the apps as well, because obviously the only thing that we have to go on initially is the photo and the answer to the questions.

• 26:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:50Elizabeth Day?

  So would you recommend that people are more open minded at that stage?

• 26:55Speaker 03

  Yes. And in fact, if you do watch the show, you'll know that I restrain myself from giving them a tight slap when they say things like that. Because it does my head in. It's just classic self sabotage.

• 27:07Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  It really is. And often what you'll see us doing on the couch there is trying to coach people to have a more open minded approach. And to get curious as opposed to remaining rigid about those things.

• 27:20Elizabeth Day?

  You talk so brilliantly about open ended conversations and also that idea of a checklist being, what is it, 80%?

• 27:27Speaker 03

  80% internal factors, so characteristics about who they are as a person, 20% external.

• 27:34Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. What I would throw into the mix here too, is having that clear dating goal. Because I think Charmaine, like you're saying, if you're in a phase where you're ready to explore and, you know, try on some different types of relationships for size. Then you don't really need to lead with some of those more prescriptive things, like I really want to have children. You know, that might not be, you know, the top priority. And in fact, it would probably inhibit meeting some really interesting people. But I think it's if your dating goal is to meet the next person who's going to be someone I'm going to have a family with. Then it absolutely makes sense, you know, to have that as your screening point.

• 28:12Elizabeth Day?

  As we've heard, Charmaine is so amazingly optimistic and brilliant energy. Not everyone feels like that or can bring that same energy to online dating. And many, many of the DMs that I get on Instagram are very often about people who are falling out of love with the apps. If they were ever in love with the apps in the first place.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 28:35Elizabeth Day?

  And who feel burnt out and depressed and dejected because they're just not finding the thing that they want to find. But. Do you recommend having periods off the app, Mel? If you are feeling that?

• 28:49Speaker 03

  Absolutely, an app holiday is a great idea. It really is, and you can re-energise, but also get some distance so you can put things in perspective. Because, you know, we all get into that overthinking cycle, particularly when you're just doing date after date after date. It's very easy to fall into that trap of what's wrong with me. And of course, there's nothing wrong with you. But if you give yourself that break, that's where you can get that insight and put things in perspective and go, you know, when that person rejected me, that was clearly about X, it wasn't about me. Check in with yourself and really consolidate all of the learning that comes from that period of time. Take a month out, do all of that and jump back in.

• 29:34Elizabeth Day?

  And even check in with yourself and ask yourself why you're experiencing something as rejection. Because very often that does have roots in your past, in your childhood, with how you experienced love and what it meant to you, both the absence of it and the presence of it. And maybe there's some useful work there where, as you say, Mel, a rejection is not a definition on who you are, particularly not in this context.

• 30:08Speaker 01

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• 30:31Speaker 01

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• 30:39Speaker 05

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• 31:07Elizabeth Day?

  Now, as a somewhat leggy individual myself, I really identify with the leggiest of all the veg, tender stem broccoli.

• 31:15Speaker 03

  I can see that for you. It also just stands head and shoulders above the rest.

• 31:19Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, stop it. Anyway, Mel, if you fancy something hot and steamy tonight, and since it's the season with Valentine's Day drawing near, why not opt for a side of tender stem broccoli, but better?

• 31:32Speaker 03

  Wow, you're really selling this.

• 31:35Elizabeth Day?

  I am, because whether you're spending your Valentines or Galentine's bromancing or flying solo, tender stem will always be there for you. Leave the bland behind, elevate your plate this Valentine's. It's all about taking a break from the Monday norm and trading up and doing something special.

• 31:52Speaker 03

  Tell me there's more.

• 31:53Elizabeth Day?

  It's simple and easy to cook, ready in three minutes if you boil or steam, but it's diverse too, and it's great roasted or grilled for a more intense flavour. Plus, no waste generated because you can eat the whole stem, and I often do. What a game changer.

• 32:09Speaker 03

  Tender stem broccoli is available from your favourite supermarket. Add a packet to your shopping basket this week.

• 32:18Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, let's move on to other ways to meet people. Are there any? Yes, there are, listeners. Yes, there are. So we've dealt with the apps. Thank you so much for your insight, Charmaine. Have any of us had experiences of meeting people in other spaces that we're willing to share?

• 32:33Speaker 03

  Are there other ways?

• 32:36Elizabeth Day?

  There are Mel, there are.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  Of course there are. I mean, I, I have and you know, I like to talk about having a two-pronged approach to dating and that is online and offline. I think it's really smart to do both because you can't really have all of your needs met through one. And I think when one is starting to annoy you or frustrate you or disappoint you, you can go to the other one. So for me, I met someone who turned into a significant relationship in my life through my theatre. So that's an example of me doing something that aligns with my values and passions and you know, everything that I love about life. Finding someone else who's in that space as well made a lot of sense. It's what I call a target-rich environment. And you can

• 33:22Speaker 03

  look for those in your own life.

• 33:24Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. I love that two-pronged approach because I did that subconsciously. I didn't have the Mel Shilling language, but I would go through phases of just feeling so disillusioned with the apps that I would then, I would, I signed up with a real-life dating agency, which actually was a negative experience for me because they were asking for a lot of money upfront, which I didn't give them. Because I hadn't, first of all, I had an interview and then there was this whole sort of quote-unquote psychological analysis of who I was. And then they handed me a ring binder, I remember this so vividly, a ring binder of available men and the available men on their books.

• 33:59Speaker 03

  Oh no.

• 34:00Elizabeth Day?

  I mean, I know we've just said we mustn't judge and be open-minded and checklist, but it, they were terrible.

• 34:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 34:05Elizabeth Day?

  It was like honestly, and, and lived, you know, hundreds of miles away from my,

• 34:09Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 34:10Elizabeth Day?

  and it just didn't even meet the basic parameters of what I needed. So I, I walked away from that. But I would go through phases of asking my friends and my wider acquaintance group, I would be really open about the fact that I was single and I was looking for someone. And if they knew of anyone, I was so open to real-life blind dates.

• 34:30Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 34:31Elizabeth Day?

  And actually, once you put it out there, the universe does come back with various options. And I had one of my Best, most meaningful, albeit very short-lived, romantic flings through that, through a dear friend setting me up with her friend. And actually, it performed a really important function for me in terms of my growth, my understanding of the things that I wanted and that a partner would need to want as well. So there are opportunities. There are also obviously things like running clubs. I hear that's the hot place to meet. Very popular at the moment. There are cooking classes, you could sign up to an art class. You could also sign up, Mel, to a reality TV programme. Imagine.

• 35:15Elizabeth Day?

  Just putting it out there. I've often thought about if I was single when maths first started, would I have signed up? And I think I probably would have done. Would you? I mean, I know, terrifying prospect. Charmaine, have you ever had an off-app romantic experience?

• 35:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, you know, I started dating when I was in my late teens, early twenties, and this app thing only came in my 40s. So, you know, but I think now, I do think it's harder because people, when they go out, they're so intentional about how they go out and they're meeting their friend who they haven't seen for six months and it's a big catch-up and all of those things. And they don't talk to people on different tables as much. But people do do it and they do go out. And I think going out with your friends and kind of just being up for it, being open, you know, just kind of not automatically thinking that other people are bad or weird or annoying, I think is really helpful. Just kind of keeping the open mind of other people can be looking for the same thing as you.

• 36:14Speaker 04

  And it's not just about that one person, it's about the right chemistry match and the right compatibility match of you.

• 36:19Elizabeth Day?

  I have to say, I experienced Charmaine doing this recently and it wasn't a romantic situation, but it was a situation where she was meeting someone for the first time in a group. And this very nice young man, she asked him what he did and he said, oh, I've just graduated in law. And Charmaine was like, oh, what's the, what speciality? And he said GDPR, at which stage I'm like, I'm out. I don't know what to say. And Charmaine said, oh, interesting. Why does that interest you? And it was a classic open ended question where then he opened up and it was really fascinating. And I think you're so right, Charmaine, to be open minded and open ended in your conversation can lead you into very interesting spaces.

• 37:01Speaker 03

  Charmaine, I, I imagine some of our listeners would be hearing your stories. And I love the way you're describing having a chat with people, basically just opening up and, and being socially quite gregarious. I imagine some people listening might be listening to that and thinking, gosh, I wish I was more like Charmaine. That would be amazing to be able to be confident enough to do that. But not everybody is. So I'm just sort of thinking, you know, if that's you, if you're listening to this and thinking, oh, if only I could, you know, connect with people in the real world, but it feels too hard. Keep in mind that you can do these things in baby steps. You know, it doesn't have to be from nothing to completely out there. You know,

• 37:45Speaker 03

  you might start just having a little conversation with the barista rather than just saying, thank you. You might say, how's your day going? You know, so these little baby steps toward social interaction can happen gradually.

• 37:58Elizabeth Day?

  I, I, I completely agree with that idea of starting small and building up. I also think it goes back to the running club idea, to signing up to something, whether it's signing up to a pottery class.

• 38:11Speaker 03

  Like minded people.

• 38:12Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly. And it might not be that you meet your future romantic partner there, but you might meet someone who could turn out to be a good friend, who could turn out to be a future colleague, or who could turn out to have a cousin who wants to be set up, who could be your future romantic partner. So you are opening the universe's doors. I'm fascinated in whether there's a difference between dating in Berlin or London.

• 38:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. So in Berlin, people don't talk to each other in a.

• 38:43Speaker 04

  Like social situation, like in clubs or bars. There's no kind of uh energy towards like the Friday night out. Um. There's no kind of lad energy. There's no kind of girls in group energy. It's very. We're really serious in Germany, you know, and it's like, so I I found that prospect. I knew that's why I had to go on apps because I found that prospect of just like. Meeting someone out was just not gonna happen, you know, and I've lived in Berlin for a long time. But I'm not German, so I I I think I knew that I would find it definitely kind of harder to pick up on those. Emotional cues from people who were from a different culture to me.

• 39:25Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think it's true that you attract what you put out, Mel?

• 39:29Speaker 03

  I do. I I really do. When you think about the energy that you bring to an interaction. You know, if you have a very low vibe, you know, you're someone who's maybe. Feeling a little flat, you know, maybe you have low expectations of relationships. Maybe you're someone who's going into an interaction thinking, oh, this person's probably not gonna like me or I'm probably not gonna like them. Then you're not even gonna notice someone who's, you know, really operating on a high positive vibe. Because you're just not in the same place as them. You know, I think there's a lot to be said for. Starting as you mean to go on and putting out what you want to get back.

• 40:09Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 40:10Speaker 04

  I totally agree with that. I say to my flatmate in London. I always say to her, sex, forget sex, forget sex.

• 40:17Elizabeth Day?

  I love it.

• 40:18Speaker 04

  She said it to a friend.

• 40:20Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 40:20Speaker 04

  She said that to a friend of hers, um, and then they were out having drinks the other night. And then she she told me about it and apparently she said this, she was like, oh, my friend Sean Main says this. And then he was like, sex, forget sex, forget sex. And he was like, yes. And I was, and I also said this to my Uber driver. I was like, listen, well, because you get to conversations with people, well, I do anyway. And so I said it to him the other day as well. It's just like. You know, you just need to like, like, your energy is kind of low, so you and I wouldn't. Like, it's just not there. So I think that you should, you know, meet someone, ha- like, have that energy. Because the hormones that come from sex are what are really helpful. Like.

• 41:03Elizabeth Day?

  Wait, sorry. Charmaine, you said this to your Uber driver, your energy is low, we're not going to go there because sex begets. Was that the context? And did you get a five star rating?

• 41:15Speaker 04

  Of course I got a five star rating. He would have given me 10 if he, he was trying to get me to move in with him and his cat. And I was like, that's never.

• 41:23Elizabeth Day?

  He has a cat. He's a keeper.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  The cat was really beautiful.

• 41:26Elizabeth Day?

  Charmaine, how have you let this prince go?

• 41:28Speaker 04

  Well, you know, there's, I also said to a friend, you know, you've got to just jump from lily pad to lily pad and then you'll get your prince.

• 41:36Elizabeth Day?

  Well, listen, I think we need how to date T-shirts that say sex begets sex begets sex. I love it. But I would love to talk before we go, in fact, I don't, I wouldn't love to talk about it, but we should talk about dejection and rejection and how to cope with all of that. And I talk a lot in terms of failure as being data acquisition. And I think that that is one good way of looking at rejection in this kind of context. Absolutely. So if you are swiping through the apps and you're not getting the matches, if you do go on a date and you think it's gone really well,

• 42:15Elizabeth Day?

  and then you send a text the next day and that double tick turns from grey to blue, but there's no answer and you're feeling ghosted.

• 42:24Elizabeth Day?

  The way for me of taking the sting out of that, but also noticing it and learning from it is to treat it as data acquisition. So that is something that has not gone the way that I imagined it would, or it's not gone the way that I thought it would. What has that taught me about what to do differently next time? Brilliant. What has that taught me about what this person didn't quite meet in terms of my needs? What has it taught me about how I showed up? And then you can eliminate that scenario from your inquiries and you can get going on the next date or the next experience that will bring you that step closer to the thing that is worthy of you.

• 43:07Speaker 03

  Look, I, I love that, but I've got to say that that rational style of thinking is not available to everybody.

• 43:13Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  You know, particularly if they've been through a date with someone that they really, really liked and they're caught up in the emotion of it, they're just going to be clouded by the emotion. So I think what you're describing is the aim.

• 43:25Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 43:26Speaker 03

  That we want people to get to that level. Elizabeth level of post-dating analysis. We want everybody, we want you to get to that.

• 43:33Elizabeth Day?

  I mean, it's a theory I've developed since being with someone, so it's easy for me, right?

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Yes, now, but it is ideal to, to have that rational way of putting it in perspective and depersonalising it and saying, what can I learn from this? But also, let's, let's acknowledge that it can be a very emotional experience too. So we want both. We want head and heart, or, you know, the wise mind to come forth. And sometimes it might take a bit of having a cry with your, with your mates, you know, having a cocktail and debriefing what happened there, getting all of the emotion out and then sitting down in a more rational way and going, okay, what's the emotional stuff going on here? What's the cognitive or the thinking stuff going on here?

• 44:19Speaker 03

  And getting some clarity that way so that, you know, you are able to extract the lessons. Cause it's not always easy.

• 44:25Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, and I definitely would love to add there that don't beat yourself up about going through that process of feeling emotional and, and even grieving something that you've lost. And by no means should you feel like a failure because you're not bouncing back immediately. The fact that you're not bouncing back immediately probably means that you are an empathetic individual who has so much to give when it comes to love because you are feeling things. That's an amazing thing to be able to feel all of these emotions, the whole gamut is a beautiful quality. It's not always the easiest, but it is beautiful. Charmaine, what would you say? What's your advice about coping with rejection when it comes to dating?

• 45:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think, you know, it's tough. It is, it is personal, you know, as much as people say, oh, it's not personal, it's not you. Like, it is something about you and that match that means that it's not compatible. And especially if you felt like it would be, that is really hard to take. But I think we just, for me, I try and think about, I'm just a really positive person. So I don't see it as like a rejection. I see it, I try and see it as like an experience. And thank God I didn't get further into something that wouldn't have worked with somebody that wasn't as, as interested.

• 45:50Speaker 04

  Because, you know, because actually my heart wasn't broken in this scenario of like rejection in that way. Like, it's just, it's just disappointing. And I think kind of taking the fuel out of it. So it's not as bad as it like, wouldn't it be so much worse if like you went on with this person and then, and then something else happened? And then they couldn't actually deal with like the fullness and brilliance of who you are. And instead you get to kind of explore that with somebody else and kind of keep it moving. And yeah, I just think it's really crucial to kind of not always, to have the emotions, but not always to centre this sort of future with somebody until it is mutually a bit more agreed.

• 46:33Speaker 04

  And that you can see that you're, you're running at the same pace rather than this sort of imagined future and all of the things that you're going to do. Because that, that thing about potential is that it's powerful. You know, the potential of what you could do with somebody in any kind of relationship is really, really, really powerful. And where a lot of, uh, long-term relationships have to kind of work on getting that sort of energy back that they had at the beginning. And it's because that potential is missing because you know what they're like in all scenarios, right? But so like, how do you keep it, how do you keep it going? So I just think. Yeah, maybe it was about me, but like, because I'm in that self-love, then that's so, that's okay.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  Not everyone has to love me or like me or wanna be with me or wanna be my friend. And I don't have to do the same for, for everybody else. And that, that makes me feel very empowered. So I just try not to take it too personally. And then I try and see like, what is that moment of growth? What did I learn? And like, didn't we have a nice time? And it's all right, they're a bit of a dickhead, really.

• 47:42Elizabeth Day?

  I think that there will be people listening to this as well, who have just experienced so much rejection. And are probably now bemoaning the lack of available romantic prospects out there. That there just doesn't seem to be anyone. And there's no easy answer to that, really, is there? Other than giving yourself that time off that we spoke about.

• 48:08Speaker 04

  That's the energy thing, right? If you just go in with that energy and you've already decided that it's done before it's done, then like, where, everyone picks up on that.

• 48:16Elizabeth Day?

  What, because I've done that, what if you're going in with great energy?

• 48:20Speaker 04

  Then they're not right for you, then how are they gonna respond when you're vulnerable? How are they gonna respond when, you know?

• 48:25Elizabeth Day?

  But what if that's happening again and again and again?

• 48:28Speaker 04

  Then you really have to talk to your friends and say, have I got this pattern of choosing people and connecting with people? Like, have you noticed this for a long time? Have I been doing this? You have to talk to your friends.

• 48:39Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, and you have to be ready to hear, I guess. You have to be ready to hear what they say.

• 48:42Speaker 04

  Then you've got to switch it up, because the thing is, is that, is it like, the epitome of stupid is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting the same outcome. And so it's not the app so far as like, doing the same thing over again, are you meeting people on apps? It's the attitude towards the type of person that you're meeting, what they're saying, what their background is. And like, in terms of their relationship history, et cetera, et cetera. It's just like, stop repeating the patterns and then get your friends to call you out on it. I love this dating stuff.

• 49:12Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. So do we. And we hope very much, listeners, that you will treat us as your dating friends. We are your dating community. We're here for you. We've got your back. We're on this journey with you and we believe in you. What a great note to end on. And before we do, Mel has a brilliant tool that she is going to talk to us about.

• 49:34Speaker 03

  Now, this is for all you spreadsheet nerds out there, which I am one. This is a tool to help you keep track of everyone you're dating, whether you meet them online or in real life. And it's essentially a little checklist and assessment, if you like, of every person that you meet and how they measure up against your values, against your lifestyle preferences, whether or not they're demonstrating any deal breakers. There's a space in there for some little notes about how the conversation went and they get an overall rating. So for those who like qualitative information, you can capture all your notes and, you know, how it felt and any stories that came up.

• 50:16Speaker 03

  But for those who like the hard data, you can actually rate people as well. So it's a bit of fun. Some of it's a little bit tongue in cheek, but it is actually a really good way of capturing all the information from those dates and being able to reflect back on them and make some more rational decisions about who to take to the next stage.

• 50:37Elizabeth Day?

  Working out what's important for you and making informed decisions. Sounds great.

• 50:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 50:42Elizabeth Day?

  So that's Mel's spreadsheet. So next week, Mel, we're at a very exciting stage. We are going to be discussing the first date.

• 50:52Speaker 03

  I'm getting nervous just thinking about it.

• 50:56Elizabeth Day?

  We will look forward to seeing you then. Bye bye.

• 50:58Speaker 03

  Bye.

• 51:04Elizabeth Day?

  Mel and I are on a mission to revolutionise dating. We want to make it better for everyone. And what better way to do that than to get you lovely listeners to sign up to a good dating pledge? Mel and I have designed 10 dating commandments. Things like, I will communicate clearly and with kindness. I will not ghost or breadcrumb. I will always ask consent. And you can go and sign up just by putting your email in. That's all we ask. You can go and sign up at thepodclass.co.uk. That's thepodclass, P-O-D-C-L-A-S-S.co.uk. Let's make dating better for everyone. Thank you so much for listening and please do like, follow and share with everyone you know who might want to listen to.

• 51:49Elizabeth Day?

  Who knows? One of them might even turn out to be your future romantic partner. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.