The Fall of the Chiefs (Maybe), SGA Superstar Tips, the Wildes-Greeny Feud, and Week 15 Picks

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Nick Wright to discuss SGA’s greatness and whether anybody can stop OKC this season (2:56). Then, they talk about the struggling Chiefs, Lamar Jackson, and more! (37:39). Finally, Joe House joins to make their Ringer 107 picks for the week (01:20:22). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Nick Wright and Joe House Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Brian Waters This episode is brought to you by Alexa+. Our smartest, most proactive AI assistant yet. https://Amazon.com/NewAlexa This episode is sponsored by State Farm®. Don’t settle for just any insurance when there’s State Farm. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat, or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're gonna want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today.

• 0:28Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday. One of the most fun ones we did this year, we did Shampoo with Cameron Crowe and Sean Fantasy, and Cameron Crowe just told a bunch of stories about movies I love, like Singles and Jerry Maguire, and of course, Almost Famous, Say Anything. But we did it all through the context of the movies. Great podcast. Next week's rewatchables, we recorded yesterday. It was four people. You heard me mention it with Rob Mahoney. We did High Fidelity. 25 years since that movie came out. John Cusack, just a lot going on. Kind of the end of Gen X. We hit a lot of good topics with that one. So that is coming on Monday. We're running out of Mondays for the rewatchables. We're

• 1:12Bill Simmons?

  heading into mid-December. We are not running out of Music Box documentaries. Jeff Buckley was last week. This week, Wizkid. By the time this pod goes up, it'll probably already have been up on HBO, but it'll be on HBO Max. Really, really cool doc. You get to learn about the history of Afro beats, and he's an incredible artist. So this is a really well-done. You will enjoy it, and you will learn a lot. So go check that out on HBO. Coming up on this podcast, Nick Wright. We've been circling each other for a long, long time, and we're gonna argue. Now that Patrick Mahomes' career is over, we're gonna argue about it on this podcast, plus a lot of other fun sports takes. And

• 1:53Bill Simmons?

  then a bruised batter Joe House, really fighting for his job here on the BS Podcast. We cannot Get good gambling picks. He's doing better on the Sunday show than he's doing on this show and his job's on the line. I don't know what else to say. If it doesn't work out this week, I'm going to make other arrangements as we head into the playoffs. So Joe House has to come through this week. We're talking about that. We're talking about some hoops and a whole bunch more. It's all coming up next. First, a break and our friends from Pearl Jam. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting a linebacker on the football field, but getting a line cook. Sure, they both can handle the pressure when

• 2:38Bill Simmons?

  it starts heating up, but only one is stopping a touchdown. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team. So don't settle for just any insurance when it comes to getting help you need. State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 3:20Bill Simmons?

  All right. I wanted to wait until the Chiefs dynasty and Patrick Mahomes' career was over before I had this guy on, Nick Wright. He hosts a show called First Things First with my buddy Kevin Wilds on FS1, among other things. And now the Chiefs are dead and you can finally come on. It's good to have you.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  It's one way to look at it, or it only took four days into Rich Paul being at the Ringer for me to finally be on the show. The Clutch Sport takeover. It's begun.

• 3:46Bill Simmons?

  That's it. I should have worn my brown clutch sweatshirt with that Chauncey Billups had when he was getting arraigned.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Well, that was, you know, that was unfortunate for all involved. Um,

• 3:56Bill Simmons?

  I forgot about the clutch piece. That's funny.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Let me do the uncomfortable part that you'll be upset with me on in the beginning. So despite the fact that many of your LeBron and basically all of your Mahomes takes have infuriated me. This is, this is the one show that I always wanted to go on and I've been very lucky that I had never been on. And I wanted to tell you. God, it might have been 20 years ago, close to it, because we have a mutual, we both have a friend Connor. I grew up with him, he's the, and you've known him forever.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  I compiled in Microsoft Excel, the archive of your NBA player trade value. All of them, like, like year by year for all of it, to try to see like what the overall, like Amari Stoudemire once was a six and then fell off and tried to do a whole like smart thing of like, could you then retroactively do it for previous eras with this is the template to see like 1970s Kareem? How does that compare to like 2000 aughts LeBron? And then I never had the, back in the day, never had the gumption to actually ask Connor to send it to you.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  And I couldn't find it right now. So this is, I am a long time reader and admirer. And so it is fun to be on here and I'll be able to finally debunk some of this Mahomes stuff. It's been so hard.

• 5:28Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's good. Well, we, we could actually start with NBA. Now you got me excited because that was on my docket. So I was trying to figure out this SGA thing, which has been, I've talked about him a bunch of times already this year on my show. And I feel like it's a story evolving in real time where this guy, you know, it's him and Jokic kind of levitating above everybody else. But there's this, there's this two year thing that's in play for him now, where they won all these games last year. It looks like they're going to win 70 plus games this year and maybe even break some records. There's some streak records that are possibly in play. There's a season record in play.

• 6:06Bill Simmons?

  There's a him for the decade where he's basically averaging 30 plus points a game for half a decade at this point. And now we're, I was starting to think this, the first, first week I thought to myself. All right. What happens if they win 75 games?

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:23Bill Simmons?

  He averages 33 a game and they win the title and they go back to back. Where does he go in my brain? Is he immediately a top 30 player? Like if he got abducted by aliens, the next day is he still in top 30? Like, what is going on basically is the question I've been asking.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  So this is, listen, you and I are similar in that we just say in like regular conversation like, yeah, he's, you know, he's top 18. Like we're getting round numbers, like we're being precise here because it matters.

• 6:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  And I get very upset when our mutual dear friend, the legend Zach Lowe, I sent him like four years ago, a text because he just said almost flippantly like Kevin Durant, you know, one of the 10 greatest players of all time. And I text him, I'm like, I'm like, Zach, if you put pencil to paper, you would not, you would not agree with yourself there. Like there's the problem with top 10 is you only have 10. And so I think top like SGA I find so interesting because I can't think of another domestic player that

• 7:32Speaker 01

  you, that ended up being an all time legend that through the first two years of his career, no one thought all time legend was possible. Do you understand what I mean?

• 7:43Bill Simmons?

  So you don't think, but you don't think rookie year Kobe? We can glorify it now and go backwards, but I don't think anybody thought he was going to be one of the top 12 guys of all time after his rookie year.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  No, you know,

• 7:55Bill Simmons?

  I mean, we hoped.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  That, that's a fair point on Kobe and maybe I'm grading the high school kids on a curve. Like because the, um, and maybe I shouldn't and like, but it feels to me like most of the guys who now are swimming the waters that you're talking about SGA potentially getting to.

• 8:16Bill Simmons?

  Like you're talking about the Duncan, LeBron, the guys that have come in this century.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Yes, or even, even like guys that aren't in that pantheon, but are Dwyane Wade and hell, like, um, Karl Malone, Charles. Charles Barkley like in that twenties range. Those guys, the date, like during their rookie year. People were like, this guy is supposed to be an MVP. This guy and the guys who pop on us. Giannis and Jokic, the excuses add they were international guys. We, you know, it was kind of a black box. I've never, and I know SGA is Canadian.

• 8:51Bill Simmons?

  And there's high school guys, same thing where it's like, all right, oh, year two, year three, huh?

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Right, a guy getting this much better. Like year three to four, four to five, five to six, to where I, it's like, wait. If you would have asked me three years ago, it's not that long ago. Will SGA ever be the best player in the league? I would have said, fuck at it, no. It was like, he might be like seventh, which is like amazing. But for the consistent improvement and to your point. And about if that team wins 70 plus. And it's like, do they have another? Top consensus, top 20 guy like J Dub.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  I maybe, but when you see how they play without him, it feels like they've got nine guys. 21 to 75. You know what I mean?

• 9:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's tough for J Dub and it's like, no, he's a top 15 guy. And then they go 23 and one and he stopped playing.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  And it's tough for, and it's tough for Chet. When it's like what he can be and it's like, well, we've seen them with and without him. And so I don't, there isn't right now a comp. For his career and you were big last year on best guard seasons we've seen. And in real time, I was like, man, this feels like a little premature. But then he did what he did and now. If I'm worried about NBA talk on the TV show. Because we're still all football, but I'm like. What is the conversation? If every single person agrees? Yeah, I mean, unless there is catastrophic injury.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  This team's winning the championship and that's how it feels right now about OKC.

• 10:38Bill Simmons?

  It's, I like how you spun that. So how does this affect you, Nick? Right? Not, not the NBA.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Well, well, I mean, you go ahead.

• 10:47Bill Simmons?

  But it's funny because I was with Jacoby last night and he was saying what you just said, multiplied by five. He was mad. We, he came over to watch the cup games and

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Wow, the NBA cup has risen to the place of

• 11:00Bill Simmons?

  Well, we were having dinner. He's in town. Yeah, it's like, let's watch basketball, order some food. He comes over. It's like, OKC 95, Phoenix 52. And Jacoby was just like, I hate OKC. He does this on a show too. Like, these guys are ruining everything. Like, who wants to watch this? Like, we should just split their team in half. He was doing that all day.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Drew dropped the take today that the rest of the NBA should be embarrassed. He's like, this is a little embarrassing for the rest of the league that this team is doing this. He's like, at least with the Steph KD Warriors, you understood it. It's like, this was an unbelievable team that added Kevin Durant and they thought, and so I don't, and so here is, and I didn't really answer your

• 11:49Bill Simmons?

  Wait, can I interrupt you on that?

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Please.

• 11:52Bill Simmons?

  I think part of the problem here, when this has happened before with the great teams that we've had, at least in the last 35, 40 years, like MJ, when this happened with the Bulls in 98, the 95, 96 season, people were so excited to have him back.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:06Bill Simmons?

  And so excited, especially after the Orlando series, the previous spring, so excited to see him kind of reclaim his throne. And then that was really one of the first times we really cared about the wins record. I think that probably started like with the 76ers in 83. I don't even think in the 80s, that was, the Bulls team was the first time people were like, oh, how many could they win? And, and like, it was a thing. And then the Warriors were compelling because all the drama and Durant and is this fair? We had all, but with OKC, they just really smartly put together this awesome team.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:41Bill Simmons?

  They kill everybody. There's no backlash to it yet. It's fun to, it's fun to watch sort of when they have close games, but I don't think people know how to put it in context.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  No, they have no controversial personalities. Like, like the closest thing is like, oh, their group interviews are corny, like that didn't have any meat to it. Or like people going after Shay's like as a fashionista, that had no meat to it. I really do think people could seize on the fact that Chet Holmgren seems to be on the record that he's never read a book. Like that to me, I think has something to it.

• 13:17Bill Simmons?

  Very small backlash though.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Right. There's no, there's none of that. And it is, I think there's two other pieces to it. It is such a tactical and almost mechanical, not in a bad way. Style, they're just like, hey, we're going to play really efficient basketball and at all times have five monster defenders on the court. And you're just going to be like, ah, next game's probably going to be easier and we're going to win. And our star player is this really one of one stylistic talent. Who also as, as, and this was the only thing they came close to the backlash on, has kind of figured out better than anyone ever.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  How to game the system on the

• 14:05Bill Simmons?

  The lunch.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  The, right, which is

• 14:08Bill Simmons?

  His little lunch.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  One thing, it's another thing. Sometimes you watch Shay and again, he's going to be the MVP again, probably. But it's like, I don't think he went into that move with the hope of making a basket. I think he went into that move with the hope of drawing a foul and I think people don't love that. But it doesn't matter because it's wildly effective and nobody seems to have a, an answer for it. Like I know you're holding out hope that Denver and Joker can do it. And NBA history tells us that what can stop a team like this is what stopped the 16 Warriors.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  I know you have, you know, your suspension theories, what it really was is the greatest three game stretch in the history of the league by an all-star player. Well, I mean,

• 14:56Bill Simmons?

  You mean when they got bailed out by Adam Silver?

• 14:59Speaker 01

  I mean,

• 15:00Bill Simmons?

  What's the theory?

• 15:01Speaker 01

  The theory is that

• 15:02Bill Simmons?

  Did he even like hit LeBron on the balls? Like it happened. So it's like a flick.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  The theory is that

• 15:10Speaker 01

  LeBron James had 41 points and the Cavs won by double digits without Draymond. And then in the next game LeBron James had 41 points and the Cavs won by double digits with Draymond. So the idea-

• 15:23Bill Simmons?

  That was in Cleveland.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  That, yeah, the games move places and then-

• 15:26Bill Simmons?

  Let me ask you this, after game four, when the Warriors played, I think the best game of their-

• 15:31Speaker 01

  I didn't feel great about it.

• 15:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and that was like the whole, alright, let's see, and it's an awesome game that I wish they showed more in Harvard Classics, but we were ending that game, it was like, wow, they shut the Cavs down, this is a wrap.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  We, it sure did feel that way, and then luckily, the greatest player in the history of the sport had the greatest three game stretch in the history of the sport, and that wrapped things up, but-

• 15:52Bill Simmons?

  Michael Jordan?

• 15:55Speaker 01

  That's neither, that's neither here nor there, the point that I'm, you're, to me, you're, the hope for Denver is analogous to, maybe Joker can do a 2016 Bron, where it's like, the other team's way better, but I'm just going to carry, go on this supernova stretch.

• 16:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, you would also need, S.J. would have to be injured, because Curry, Curry was banged up in the playoffs, and S.J. would have to release a terrible shoe, and we would need some sort of suspension for game five. That would be the, that would be the doppelganger.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  The Curry was injured stuff, I'm gonna, I'm gonna-

• 16:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, he was.

• 16:36Bill Simmons?

  He was injured. He played hurt. And Bogut went down halfway through the series, that's how we ended up with Festus Ezeli in game seven, trying to guard LeBron, two times in a row.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  That part did happen, but the Steph Curry protectionism, he's an all-time great player, everybody knows it, but the Steph Curry protectionism of, he can come back against Portland, set the all-time record in his first game back from the injury, for points in overtime, literally bellow to the crowd, I'm back, had everyone, you and, like, you, as you were just saying, four games into the series, being like, this team is unstoppable, Steph's amazing, about to win a championship, and then, he doesn't play well in a game seven, it's like, oh, Steph was injured, give me a break, give me a break.

• 17:22Bill Simmons?

  That's what, I think the LeBron fans have done that with a couple of years too. Here's the thing, this is going back to OKC-

• 17:27Speaker 01

  LeBron broke his hand in 2018 and heroically hit it from everyone.

• 17:31Bill Simmons?

  Forgot about that.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  After the greatest game you've ever seen, go ahead, sorry.

• 17:35Bill Simmons?

  We're talking about how OKC can be stopped. And to me, the parallels, I mentioned this the other day with Mahoney, I want to dive into it because I'm interested in your take. The 07 Pats, the streak.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:47Bill Simmons?

  The pressure of that, playing a playoff game basically every week, and they wore down, and they really weren't even before that Super Bowl, that like the playoffs, it wasn't the most inspiring.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  That team like peaked in like week 12.

• 17:59Bill Simmons?

  No question. Even, I would say earlier, I thought they peaked the first half of the season.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  I don't have the exact, but then you saw them holding on because remember they almost lost that Ravens game, like the Ravens called a timeout when they shouldn't have.

• 18:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  So, but go ahead, sorry.

• 18:11Bill Simmons?

  It's kind of an unimpressive Chargers game too, where they're playing Phil Rivers, he's got the torn ACL and they, you know.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Bill Rivers also playing this week.

• 18:19Bill Simmons?

  I know. I want to come to him later, but I'm wondering like with OKC, if there's a streak, because people love streaks.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  It wore down the 2013 Heat.

• 18:31Bill Simmons?

  The 2013 Heat, I thought was one of the best moments of the 21st century for basketball. I was so into it. I loved it. Every game was a playoff game. When the Bulls beat them, it was significant. And I wonder with this OKC, if they roll through the cup, if they get into the twenties with that streak, and now, once you get turned around 21, 22, people really start to care. You get to 25, you start passing some of the really memorable teams. Maybe the weight of that could sink them a little bit. I don't know.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Here's, here's why it feels unlikely. Now, it should be said, at this moment, in December of each of like the last five years, four years, it is felt inevitable that the defending champion was going to win again. Like this time last year, it sure felt like Boston, yeah, OKC, Boston's going to do it. And the year before it to me felt like, yes, Denver's going to repeat. The only team that didn't feel like it was going to repeat was Golden State, because that felt like kind of a last hurrah type of thing.

• 19:34Bill Simmons?

  No question.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  And then the year, but the year before that Milwaukee, I thought they were going to repeat up until the moment.

• 19:41Bill Simmons?

  Middleton got hurt.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Chris Middleton got hurt.

• 19:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Um, so, and none of those teams have even made the conference finals to defend their title. Uh, what feels different about this OKC team is two things. One is, it feels like they can sustain the injury, no matter who it's to, as long as it's not Shay. Like anybody else.

• 20:01Bill Simmons?

  I mean, you could argue even with Shay, it might be like a 60-win team.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Well, that would be the most.

• 20:08Bill Simmons?

  I mean, honestly, that like they just put Mitchell in there. They'd run more stuff through Jalen Williams. Their defense would still probably make them big win 75% of their games.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Nothing would be more confusing to the NBA ranking stuff that you were talking about at the start is if and you know, not hoping for this, obviously, but if a week before the playoffs, Shay went out and it was done for the year and they won the title. Like that would be sneaky terrible, but for Shay.

• 20:37Bill Simmons?

  I mean, right. Would they be like still favored? Probably not, but they'd be one of like the three favorites in the West.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. And so I just don't, I don't know. So the, the like, oh, it's long season's guy can go down. They seem immune to it. And the fact that they are just to get to them in the West.

• 21:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  One of these teams is going to have to play a war in round two feels like, man, how is it not going to happen? And I don't want.

• 21:16Bill Simmons?

  Feels like we're headed for Denver, Houston, just hitting each other with two by fours for two solid weeks and then the winner gets to play OKC.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  And it's also why the most interesting thing to me about the Western Conference playoff race, if you will, is there is massive incentive to be the three seed or the two seed. Like there is such a penalty if you're the four, like that Lakers lost to that. And I know the Lakers, you, you don't believe in them probably quite as much as I do, but that loss to the Spurs last night is like low key devastating. If you thought, you know, avoid OKC as long as possible, being the four or five is a disaster. It's just a disaster.

• 21:59Bill Simmons?

  They've had the same, Rich talked about this on Monday in the, on the pod about there's, there's these young, long athletic teams that are just kryptonite for this Lakers group.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:09Bill Simmons?

  And like they got killed by Atlanta earlier in the air, San Antonio yesterday. There's a certain type of team with a ton of energy that I think is going to be a problem for them on the schedule, but they're still, you know, they're still a 50 win team. I guess, I guess the thing I want to figure out is how you balance with now that LeBron is back and you saw Reeves kind of fall back a little bit. And suddenly it doesn't look like Reeves anymore is can you have those three guys? How do you make all three of them happy and get the right amount of production out of all three? And then how do you hide them on defense?

• 22:40Speaker 01

  So listen, there is no hide, the, the, the defensive piece is, I don't think there's a fix to like, it's just, they're just going to be a bad defensive team for the most part. Like, I think they could, you could add a piece, whatever, like, but that's, that team's strength has to be, we're going to score 130. Like, we're just going to be a monster offensively. I dis, I, I think that when LeBron first came back, Austin was still crushing. And the, the, the night LeBron streak ended, Austin had 40. Like, I do, and I know you think, probably think I'm biased on this. I do think LeBron, at this point, especially because the streak's

• 23:20Speaker 01

  over, is to a degree, post stats in what he cares about. Like, he has all the records. There's nobody, nobody, there's nothing else for him to chase in that. And because he missed all those games, because I do think he cares about all NBA stuff, but he's going to be ineligible. So like-

• 23:39Bill Simmons?

  He wasn't going to make it anyway.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I mean, again, that, we, he made it last year, but this year, he's going to be ineligible. So, right. And so, I do think he's going to be fine, being like, jack of all trades guy. And I think Reeves is, I think Reeves and Luka are really good, offensive, really good one-two punch with LeBron filling in the blanks. I just don't know how they can guard anybody. I just don't know how they, and it feels like since Bron's been there, they haven't been able to guard point guards. And the year they had AD and Dwight and won the title, they were just so big, it was fine. But who can guard point guards on that team? I don't know.

• 24:19Bill Simmons?

  And you're relying on Deandre Ayton where it's gone pretty well for six weeks.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Shockingly well.

• 24:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but we know, we know, we know what lurks inside. Yeah, I'm looking at my pyramid right now. And if SGA went back to back, let's say they have a 25 game winning streak, they win between 70 and 74 games, who knows?

• 24:40Bill Simmons?

  It would be hard not to have him in the twenties.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  So let's.

• 24:44Bill Simmons?

  With the resume he's had with all the all MBAs in a row. It's just he would have to go down as like the logical successor to the two guard. Basically, the best guard alive championship belt goes to him for four years here.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  So can we the so because I think our I think our top 20 would maybe not is obviously the order is going to be different. But the if I may just real quick, just Bron, Kareem, Michaels, everyone's top three like that's in stone.

• 25:17Bill Simmons?

  It's an interesting order.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Well, that's the order I have it in, but I don't want to argue about that right now.

• 25:21Bill Simmons?

  That's fine.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 25:23Bill Simmons?

  I mean, I would have I would have Russell three personally, but.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Oh, above Kareem?

• 25:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I go MJ, LeBron, Russell, Kareem.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:31Bill Simmons?

  You know why? Because every time Bill Russell played in the playoffs, he won, except for the time he had like a high ankle sprain. His foot almost came up his body. Or the other time, Will killed him in 67, but he was 11 for 13.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  But the so just the no, that's that's totally fair. And I I'm just trying to like reverse engineer SGA because.

• 25:50Bill Simmons?

  Those four have to start. Yeah, those you have to start with those four.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  And and Magic and I Magic, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe. By the way, you're 100% right on Duncan over Kobe. It's the most frustrating argument, but that's fine.

• 26:02Bill Simmons?

  It's about him, Bird.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Bird after Kobe, then is where at nine or that's nine. At 10 is where it starts to be tricky because it's like Akeem, Shaq, Steph, Joker. Only one of those guys is a top 10 all time player. Like everyone can stop with like the Yanis Durant, I Dr. J, who I love Moses, who's the most underrated guy. We just told you nine and only one of so like, I don't know who you who you have highest of those four. I would assume you have Steph higher higher than Shaq and Akeem. I struggle with that. I think Akeem's become wildly underrated.

• 26:44Bill Simmons?

  He has.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  So I but again, we're SGA is not in that area. So let's just agree those are the next four. So 10, 11, 12, 13.

• 26:52Bill Simmons?

  My list is a little different.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 26:55Bill Simmons?

  I'm having a lot of trouble Joker how it plays out in the playoffs here, but just what he's done offensively now for seven years that has no parallel to basically anything in NBA history. It's tough not to not to nudge him toward that top 10.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  But so you right, but and this is.

• 27:13Bill Simmons?

  Like to me, he's near wilt at this point, but I do think he needs another title.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you don't have him ahead of Larry Bird.

• 27:20Bill Simmons?

  No, but I do think Curry versus Kobe is a better argument that people want to give a credit for. Kobe only won one MVP and he only he won the two on his own. Steph won four. He won the one on his own than the other. The other three, I guess you could give him 15, but that I just think it's a better argument than people give a credit for. Where Kobe wins it, I think if you're going to give it to Kobe is all those all MBAs and everything else he did. Basically after oh eight, he has this whole like second, second prime that Steph hasn't really totally had.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Listen, you and I are in lockstep on the, I think for the good and bad about Kobe. Like what, what is true on the not on the con side of the ledger is he has a couple grisly finals and they're not always and it's not just when he was a kid. Um, his finals against the Pistons was a disaster and it's not just the three years smack dab in the middle of your prime where you missed the playoffs and then don't get out of round one. But the, the blowing a three, one lead in round one and game seven, second half quitting is

• 28:33Speaker 01

  like a real thing. Now he overcame it because of those titles, but that is, does that offset enough of he was such a better defensive player than Kobe, than Steph? Like, you know, but it is that that's a fair argument.

• 28:47Bill Simmons?

  But you could argue with the, the, I mean, the case for Steph, if you're going to go deep on this. Is the shooting and the threat of his shooting and how it affected the court and how the defense almost like having Tyree Kill on offense where the whole secondary has to shift toward him and it opens up all this other stuff. That would be part of the Curry case and also like he was an amazing teammate, you know, and Kobe was up and down on that stuff. I think even the biggest Kobe fans would admit that he had some rocky years there.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:18Bill Simmons?

  To say the least.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Rocky years.

• 29:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he had his coach writing an entire book about what a pain in the ass he was. Like, these are things that happen.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  But if so, but if those are the 13 and then we, to me, we get to the Dr. J, Moses, Durant, Giannis, Isaiah Thomas.

• 29:36Bill Simmons?

  I have the 15.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:38Bill Simmons?

  And then we move into like this Oscar, KD, Havlicek, Giannis, Dirk, Elgin, Julius, Pettit, Garnett, Malone, Barkley.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  So, right.

• 29:48Bill Simmons?

  SGA now has a chance to kind of sniff that.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  So that's where I was trying to get to. Like, who is the best player that with a title, you would have SGA ahead of? So like, I'm thinking in my head, I'm like, with a title, do I have SGA ahead of John Stockton? Yes. With a title, do I have SGA ahead of David Robinson?

• 30:13Bill Simmons?

  Well, yeah, you're talking like the Jason Kidd, Nash, just a couple of those people that just never won. Chris Paul, John Stockton. The other question you have to ask is, all right, let's say SGA's career ends this year. This is, I did this exercise in my book. Would you rather have the nine, eight SGA years? You get all of them, you could start a franchise with that, or you could have the 20 years of Chris Paul? What gives you a better chance to win the title?

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Chris Paul, but I'm probably, I'm, I'm not quite Rossello when it comes to Chris Paul, but I'm a big Chris Paul fan.

• 30:48Bill Simmons?

  Right. But I'm saying your goal is to win the title and you could have the eight years SGA just had or Chris Paul's entire career and that's your only goal? What's, what's the answer? I think there's a real case for SGA. It's like if at the peak SGA, if I could put a good team around him, I can win a title.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  So here's the thing. So that's the part that I'm not. I'm not sure about in this regard. You do this all the time. I forget who you were just talking about it with. Like if you do their career 100 times, this was like a one percentile outcome. Like they got stone unlucky.

• 31:28Bill Simmons?

  Well, LeBron's a good example of that. If, who was the team that if, if the lottery that year, what was it?

• 31:34Speaker 01

  With Jerry West.

• 31:35Bill Simmons?

  He goes to Memphis with Jerry West with the guys they had already.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Pau Gasol.

• 31:41Bill Simmons?

  Is he like still there? It's like they went like nine titles, you know?

• 31:46Speaker 01

  But so my question is this with SGA, is this OKC operation? A 98th percentile outcome for him?

• 31:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but okay. This is a good exercise because you could say that about Duncan. Went to the best possible San Antonio team. The one year they sucked where Robinson's there and a good infrastructure. You could say about Bird, Bird goes to a team with a bunch of Hall of Famers and a great GM. And then they make better trades. Definitely say it about Magic. Can't say it about Jordan.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Can't say about Jordan, can't say about.

• 32:18Bill Simmons?

  Can't say about LeBron.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Can't say it about Kareem in.

• 32:22Bill Simmons?

  You can't say it about Russell because he goes to a team with Kuzi and a whole bunch of other people. Right, our back.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  You can say it about Kobe. Cause Shaq's there and so he gets the formative stuff.

• 32:32Bill Simmons?

  Kobe had one of the best situations of any of them. He goes to a team that has the dominant center that, you know, other than Hakima that decade.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  You, you, it is, this is one for your guy. You cannot say it about Steph. That franchise was a, you wrote a whole thing about what a disaster the Warriors were pre Steph.

• 32:52Bill Simmons?

  So the only, the only thing for him that it actually might've been a good franchise is all the issues he had with his feet and ankles.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 33:00Bill Simmons?

  And whether he was with, like, let's say he goes to the Timberwolves. With David Kahn running Timberwolves and a shitty owner and it's like, oh man, Steph's career is over now. Like, they wouldn't have come up with one thing to save his anything. And I do think the Warriors get credit for that or wherever, being in California.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a really, I hadn't thought about that, but that's a really good point. The like that they-

• 33:21Bill Simmons?

  His career, he, there's, in the 60s, his career is over in four years.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  In the 60s, bro, in the 90s.

• 33:26Bill Simmons?

  He's done. We're in Converse, he's done. It's, we don't even know who he is.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I mean, I think that we don't even have to go back that far. I think most, like, in the, yes, so that, so that is like, so is, for SGA,

• 33:42Speaker 01

  was this the ideal situation or am I underselling him by saying that? Like, I just-

• 33:50Bill Simmons?

  You're underselling one thing. He's lights out at the end of these games to the point that he's fucking Michael Myers. It's like, oh, it's a three-point game with four minutes left. Like, you know what's gonna happen. And he's got so much confidence. I also think, he's been so good that now I find myself comparing other players to things he does. Like, he's reached that last level. Like, I was watching Dylan Harper the other day. Dylan Harper's footwork is so good for like, however old he is, 19 or 20.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  But now you're comparing him to SGA.

• 34:16Bill Simmons?

  And I'm like, oh, his footwork's like Shay. Like, I would've said Kobe three years ago, and now Shay is the default footwork guy. Um, I think the one thing that he doesn't have, that I don't know how to explain this or assess it, is there's a charisma piece that's not totally there, that Kobe always had, that MJ always had. And SGA, it's, there's like a small piece missing with how you resonate, how the fans resonate with him when they're at the game. And I don't know, you can't fix that.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  It wa- right, and there is, in that same bucket is, every legendary scoring guard, except for Iverson, has been above the rim.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  And he's not.

• 34:58Bill Simmons?

  Right. That's a good point.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  And so like the, and he's tall enough, obviously, you know, it's just Iverson wasn't literally wasn't tall enough. And the other guys who are, I guess Steph isn't, is a scoring guard, but Steph is a different style of player. All those other guys had a, it's why people have so long tried to force this Anthony Edwards face of the league thing. What it's, all that means is this guy fucking dunks on people and we like it. Like that's like, it's just that that is like a fun, um, a fun piece of it. I, I do, I do have, I, the, I wanna, I don't know what you have on the docket. I wanna make sure.

• 35:36Bill Simmons?

  Oh, well, look, can we take a break?

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:38Bill Simmons?

  That was a good segment. I thought we did a good first segment. Take a break, come back.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  I give it, uh, I'd give it a B plus, Bill.

• 35:48Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're coming back. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Your Friday night just got a little louder because NBA Happy Hour is happening on FanDuel every Friday from 6 to 7:30 PM Eastern. FanDuel's got limited time specials to pregame the weekend. It's one of my daughter's phrases, the pregame, pregame. Boost, bonus, surprises, all live in the app. And by the way, in the app, after I pushed and proud of them, they added a bunch of Oklahoma City, um, couple of futures, including could they reach 29 straight consecutive games and beat Golden State 28? That's like plus 450. Could they get to 34 plus consecutive games, which would be a new NBA record, 12 to one? I would not

• 36:31Bill Simmons?

  recommend that one. That's too hard. The 28 is interesting though. Uh, I still, the 74 plus regular season wins, that has dropped ever since we started talking about on the BS pod. That is plus 235 now. So I'm glad people listen to me out there. NBA Happy Hour every Friday from 6 to 7:30 Eastern, only on FanDuel, official sportsbook partner of the NBA. Visit fanduel.com/BS to get started. Must be 21 plus, present in select states, or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Opting required. Rewards are non-mudragable. Restrictions apply, including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements, and max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game, problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit

• 37:14Bill Simmons?

  rg-help.com. Call 1-888-789-777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Amazon. Say hello to the all new Alexa plus see how Alexa can do so much more for you. Need tickets to the finals, rides to get there and a place to eat around the stadium? Help organize your schedule so you never miss a kickoff? I actually need that. Or just craving your game day spread? I'm always craving it. Just sit back, relax and talk naturally. I didn't even talk naturally right there. Just sit back, relax and talk naturally. I did it. Alexa's on it and learns your style, anticipates what's next and makes it happen across Echo and Fire TV and much more.

• 37:59Bill Simmons?

  Learn more at amazon.com slash new Alexa. Kansas City Chiefs, six and seven. House and I are going to do Ringer 107 picks in a second. We're definitely taking the Chiefs. I think they're going to win this week, which will make them seven and seven. I have a whole. I don't know whether to give you the floor first or give, actually, let me go. You play off me on this one.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 38:26Bill Simmons?

  I'll try to get this to an A minus. What really happened to the Chiefs? My top 10 favorite excuses I've heard from Chiefs fans in no particular order.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 38:42Bill Simmons?

  Kelsey got old.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  I mean, that objectively did happen. That does not explain this.

• 38:49Bill Simmons?

  Alright, so we're one for one with a good excuse.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, I don't consider that an excuse. Like that did happen, but that doesn't explain this. So like, yes, he got old, that shouldn't have caused this. Go ahead.

• 39:01Bill Simmons?

  Too much physical wear and tear on Mahomes because of his O-line and the fact that he's scrambling so much and that's why he can no longer connect really on any deep balls at all.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't buy that. That feels like an excuse.

• 39:17Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 39:19Bill Simmons?

  Mahomes can't connect on deep balls anymore. They're too easy to stop offensively. You don't have to worry about the deep.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  That's, that's, that is, that is a legitimate, fair criticism this year in particular. Uh, I know.

• 39:33Bill Simmons?

  And last year.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  Right. I was gonna say, I know the numbers were bad last year. It, the, I, I think last year, the, there was more of a explanation for it of people, other, the, the surround, supporting cast preventing it. This year, the offensive line up until this past week has been healthy and act and good. You have the right receivers out there. You're, it, no, that's a fair, you know, that is a fair check against him this season, I think.

• 40:05Bill Simmons?

  This is a good one. I actually went on Chiefs Reddit to see if I could find any Chiefs excuses. I saw this one. From 2018 to 2024, they played 21 playoff games.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:19Bill Simmons?

  Almost more, more than an entire season. They averaged 20 games a year for seven years. And, um, one of the guys on this Chiefs Reddit thread said, they need a break. They need a chance to refuel and reset. It was a thing that was written.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  So, listen, so here's the thing, and I, there is a reason that only one team ever has had a better, had, had a run like this of seasons this long and went on longer. And it only went on one season longer, the Patriots from 11 18. So I do think that that is definitionally true. That go, like, listen, there is also a reason that no team, only one team ever has been to four straight Super Bowls. I think it's, you know, maybe less the full seven years and more the last three years and the chase of the three-peat.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  And the, the stomach punch of the way that ended, that I think really has had a knock on effect this season. I do believe that. Go ahead.

• 41:30Bill Simmons?

  I actually believe in that theory because I think that was, I watched it happen with the Warriors last decade where they, they go into the five finals in a row. And I just felt like they're running on fumes. I watched it happen with my Patriots. You know, they were, especially like that, uh, Even the 03 04 and when they had the streak and then 05 that it was a lot of the same guys.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  And so here's Denver. So I do you want to keep going through it or can I now throw?

• 41:57Bill Simmons?

  No, I have a couple more. Okay. Just quickly.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  And then I want to revisit it.

• 42:00Bill Simmons?

  Salary cap just super hard. Once my home becomes an expensive franchise guy.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  That's a, that's an excuse. Everybody's got expensive quarterback. That's good. Stop it.

• 42:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And plus the league now, I don't even know what the salary cap is. You just move money forward. It's like a Potsys scheme. Taylor Swift.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  That's not, stop it. That's not it. Cardi B has been great for your Patriots.

• 42:24Bill Simmons?

  Karma.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  For what?

• 42:26Bill Simmons?

  Just because some of the guys you've signed over the years, maybe the karma. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Saw that one.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  That is rich coming from a Pats fan who's and like, I don't want to hear about.

• 42:40Bill Simmons?

  Murdering tight end.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  I don't want to hear about karma.

• 42:46Bill Simmons?

  Arrogance. They greenlit a documentary and then run wasn't even over yet. They did this giant documentary about how they're going to win three in a row.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't, the documentary was not about how they're going to win three in a row. It was about the quest. Um, the documentary was great.

• 43:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Um, uh, last one. Andy, we got old.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  This has not been Andy's best season.

• 43:10Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it has been Andy's best season at all.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  The, and no, I think, and that fourth and one call was the worst call of

• 43:22Speaker 01

  they were going to win that Texans game. The Texans were done scoring.

• 43:25Bill Simmons?

  They would die. All you had to do is just punt, keep punting it to them and they were going to give you one.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  They were gonna, we, they were gonna win. Okay. So now let me address some of the Chiefs darts you have thrown and then we'll get to Patrick.

• 43:39Bill Simmons?

  I'm just, this is just rhetoric I'm hearing about the three time Superbowl champion, Kansas City Chiefs.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Okay. So first of all, some very odd and scary for me at least similarities.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Tom Brady, in his seventh year as a starter, stepped on the field in the Super Bowl, trying to win his fourth ring, knowing, if we win this game, I am considered the undisputed GOAT, and this is considered the greatest team of all time. He lost the game in heartbreaking fashion, and then, did not win a playoff game, one game, the next three years. Now, first year of that was tragic, you know, in week one, he gets his knee blown out, but year seven, going-

• 44:36Bill Simmons?

  By your guy.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  I know, by Bernard Pollard, I know.

• 44:40Bill Simmons?

  We call Bernard Carmel Pollard, we use his middle name like he's an assassin.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Year seven, going for ring four, trying to be the undisputed greatest team ever. Patrick in year seven, was playing for ring four, trying to become the greatest, undisputed greatest team ever. If they pull off the three-peat, they lose that Super Bowl in very different fashion. He doesn't get hurt the next year, but it looks like they're going to be out of the tournament in year eight, and that scares me about, because you guys had a retool in the late 2000 aughts. And so like that, the first seven years, Brady to Tom, or Brady to Tom, Brady to Patrick, the, the way they played and the numbers are different, but the overall like ledger is very similar.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Um, and then Tom had, you know, a little gap, and then what I think is the greatest run in NFL history, 11 to 18. I, I, so I, so this is the question I-

• 45:45Bill Simmons?

  We almost, we almost had four retools, if you look at it, and I think you, you're on your second one right now. Because I think the Tyreek trade-

• 45:53Speaker 01

  The Tyreek trade was a retool that fucking worked great. Mahomes won MVP the first year, and they won the Super Bowl, then they won the Super Bowl again, but now, you're right, this is second retool, you, go ahead, sorry.

• 46:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we had the, the retool for the Pats was when they were like, hey, we have Tom Brady, maybe we should get him some awesome receivers, and they got Welker Moss. That led basically to the second half of that decade. And then, you know, when they built around the tight ends, that was the third retool, and then the middle of the 2010s was, I don't know what was going on, we were just winning.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  So here- So here's my, so here's, and this is not a rhetorical question, it's not a smart ass question. Do you consider the Pats one sustained dynasty or two separate dynasties?

• 46:40Bill Simmons?

  I think the Brady Belichick together, it has to be considered one giant thing.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 46:46Bill Simmons?

  But I think, I think all the Pats fans think of it as like these little different eras that the, you know, they did it with defense, the first three Super Bowls. That's how they, they won. Brady was the third most important piece of it.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  I, so you, you're getting me close to where one of the things I want to get to, but I think you can make the argument you made. It's the same coach, same quarterback. It's one dynasty. The other one is there was 01 to 04, the defense led Adam Vinatieri clutch portion of it.

• 47:15Bill Simmons?

  Belichick. I was really like, Belichick just the, but by far running circles around everybody else.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  And then there is 2011 to 2018, when you make five Super Bowls, win three, peak Tom, and every single year you played in the conference championship game. Like, you know what I mean? And that was the, the apex to me of Brady. Um, and so it, since I view it as two separate things, I get very mad. Like, it's irrational how mad I get when you just flippantly called the Chiefs a mini dynasty. I'm like, if we're a mini dynasty, then everything but your stupid Patriots are the mini dynasty. Then the damn Cowboys were a mini dynasty. That if, if five Super Bowls in six years with three rings, isn't a full grown adult dynasty, then we're

• 48:05Speaker 01

  never having another one. Cause I don't think we're going to get 20 years of the same coach and quarterback.

• 48:10Bill Simmons?

  It's a really good note and it was a little petty on my side.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Thank you. Wow. Wow. Thank you. Now, can I, can I do the Patrick Mahomes still one day could be the GOAT?

• 48:26Bill Simmons?

  In Dallas or Kansas City?

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Oh, that was rich. Why did Rich do that? Why is Rich trading him to the Cowboys? I didn't understand that.

• 48:35Bill Simmons?

  I didn't either. I don't know. Maybe he had inside info.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  So what works, do we agree?

• 48:43Speaker 01

  That because I you keep talking about Patrick missing the playoffs as this stinging goat indictment.

• 48:50Bill Simmons?

  It's not great.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  It right, but totally not caring that Tom missed the playoffs in a second in it after they won the first Super Bowl with the argument being he wasn't Tom yet, right? Is that

• 49:02Bill Simmons?

  They still went nine and seven in the last game of the year. It's a really weird, weird. If you go back and look at the standings.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 49:09Bill Simmons?

  It was like all these nine and seven, three way ties. And so they played the last game and they won the last game of the year and needed some help and didn't get it.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  By the way, that might be exact. If you're right, that the Chiefs are going to beat the Chargers. They have the Titans and the Raiders still on the schedule. That'll be nine wins, no matter whether they beat Denver or not, like they could be very similar to that. But the, but the argument that Wilds makes, and I've heard other people make is, yeah, but

• 49:36Speaker 01

  that's not fair to use against Tom because you're, he wasn't Tom Brady yet, which I acknowledge and I understand, but he gets

• 49:45Bill Simmons?

  He's pretty good that year.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  For the Super Bowls. So we shouldn't, when we're talking about like the goat debate, say because Patrick was instantly excellent, that hurts him in the case that he's better than Tom Brady one day. Like that logically, I don't follow.

• 50:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, can, can, can we at least agree on this? Heading into that Philly game in the air was like, if he does this, it's kind of a rap. And Max and I talked about that last week when we were in the pod about these, these moments people have sometimes in their career, these little sliding door things where it's like, wow, this happens.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:22Bill Simmons?

  Oof, it's undeniable. That's why like I was on Twitter today and somebody just put on the last 45 seconds of game six of 98 with Jordan in Utah, just that whole sequence of the 50 seconds, which every time I'm watching it's so mesmerizing. You just watch this guy like levitate above the game. Basically it's like just still the greatest thing I've ever seen an athlete do. And it's like, all right, what happens if he misses the last shot and they lose in seven? And it's just like the, the sliding doors of that, we're talking about him differently. And I think that was if Mahomes had beaten that crazy Philly team that was just better than them and more talented than he'd done that it's it was would have been

• 51:00Speaker 01

  I still don't think you would have said he was the GOAT yet. I think you would have been like, well, Brady beat him twice in the playoffs.

• 51:06Bill Simmons?

  I would have said we had co-goats. I think there would have been a co-goat possibility at that point.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  So the I so I agree with you that in that moment, his is, you know, if it's polymarket going into that game, his chance of being known, ending his career as the GOAT, was it like 76%? And after the game, it dropped to like 49. And as we sit here today, it feels like it's around 30.

• 51:38Bill Simmons?

  Like the But the difference between the two guys is that it feels like Mahomes was just better like three years ago. Just from the eye test, like it just feels like he moved better. He threw the ball better, everything. Brady got better in his 30s. Like he just did. Like by the time we got to the Seattle Super Bowl, if you go back and you look at those last two drives, who he's playing with.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  It's unbelievable.

• 52:00Bill Simmons?

  It's out of control, but it's just like, he couldn't have done that 10 years earlier. I don't think like he definitely got better in the 2010s.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  So I don't know. It's the Mahomes thing is so weird because it's hard to like, really pin down what we're saying because so they they trade Tyreek Hill. And that next year, they're the highest scoring team in the league. He has more yards than any quarterback in NFL history. And was unbelievable, but it was all dink and dunk stuff. It wasn't deep bombs. It was just wildly efficient. They win the Super Bowl. The next year, everyone's like, this is the worst Chiefs team yet. They actually have to go on the road in the playoffs. And in those playoffs, he has one of the greatest individual playoff runs in the history of the sport.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Going to Buffalo, going to Baltimore, coming back 10 down in the Super Bowl. And it's like, holy shit. Like, why would we doubt this guy again? Last year that

• 53:01Bill Simmons?

  I mean, to the point that it was impossible to bet on him the next year.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 53:05Bill Simmons?

  It was, I'm doing playoff manifesto and I'm just throwing out rules because I just don't want to bet against Mahomes.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  And then last year was super weird because he had these insane fourth quarter, third down clutch numbers. But every other number, it's like, it's worse than, uh, not, uh, Trevor Lawrence or something like his, his stats last year were not good. But the team won every game and he was, everybody who watched the Chiefs is like, yeah, Patrick's the reason why. And so, but the numbers didn't back that up. So here's, so I don't know where, I also don't know where actually like, if he has a season of failure, which this could be, what that does to him moving forward, right?

• 53:54Speaker 01

  In a positive way, I would think.

• 53:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, is there the Rocky IV log cabin scenario?

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 54:01Bill Simmons?

  Where you, you need to almost go to Russia and rebuild it and you're just going with Duke and your wife and

• 54:07Speaker 01

  The whole thing.

• 54:08Bill Simmons?

  And that's it. You're just, you're rebuilding it.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  So I think, because I think he's wired that way. I, and then I, because I do have one other Chiefs question. I just want to finish this Mahomes thought on the GOAT thing. But my, my, Mahomes could still be the GOAT. Argument boils down to this.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  I think everyone agrees that through eight seasons, which is where Patrick is right now. His career outstrips Tom's through eight years. They both had three rings, but Patrick's been to five Super Bowls. Tom had been to four. Pat, Patrick has two MVPs. Tom has one. So up to this point in his career, he's ahead of the pace.

• 54:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was thinking about when I was growing up, there was like Marino, LA, Montana, people like that. The only one that you could put against his first eight years is Montana, who I don't even think started for two years.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Correct. That's the problem.

• 55:01Bill Simmons?

  But Montana would be the doppelganger for the first eight years and he's better than Montana because he played the whole time.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 55:07Bill Simmons?

  He missed the first year. That's it.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  And so the problem for Patrick is this, if I'm being fair.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  He's, he needs to be way ahead of Brady's pace at 10 years and 12 years. Because the odds that he's gonna play 20, like after year eight, Tom played 15 more years.

• 55:31Bill Simmons?

  I know, I know.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  That, that's, the, the part is, he's not, he can't just be like, still like, oh, mile marker 10, slightly ahead, because he's probably not gonna run as long of a race. And Tom does have the playoff head to head, which sucks for me, it's great for you. Um, but that's, that's a hard one. So I just don't, I, I don't like when you say he's eliminated. Like it's out because of this, because it, it really wounds me. Now, can I ask you one other thing about the Chiefs?

• 56:04Bill Simmons?

  I'm sorry, but he's eliminated.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  It is not.

• 56:06Bill Simmons?

  Brady never played a meaningless NFL game. He never started a meaningless NFL game.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Patrick has not yet either.

• 56:12Bill Simmons?

  He has not yet. The best thing you have going for you is that Amazon bought that, that, uh, Christmas night game. There, there might be some ref greasing. Bezos, we need that game.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  So here's, so you think the Chiefs are gonna beat the Chargers this weekend?

• 56:29Bill Simmons?

  I still can't believe the Chargers beat the Eagles.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Nobody.

• 56:33Bill Simmons?

  I, I don't understand what happened in that game, or, or the Chargers can't block. They can't really do anything, and I don't understand how they have nine wins.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  So I don't know if you have really like run this full scenario full in your head, but here is, and again, the Chiefs have been bad.

• 56:53Bill Simmons?

  Is this a Chiefs may, Chiefs going 10 and 7 making the playoff scenario?

• 56:58Speaker 01

  It's very simple.

• 56:59Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  So again, the hard part is they have to go 10 and 7, which means they have to win the Charger game and beat Denver in Kansas City, by the way, on Christmas. But their other two games are Titans Raiders. So if we assume they're going 10 and 7, two other things need to happen. The Philip Rivers Colts need to lose at least twice. Fucking done. They are, they play the Seahawks, the Niners, the Jags and the Texans. They are not going three and one.

• 57:33Bill Simmons?

  They are not. I agree with that. By the way, you're the Chiefs on Fandor plus 520 to make the playoffs, which I, I thought was high.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Well, so this is what I'm saying. So if we eliminate the Colts, because the Colts would have to go three and one to

• 57:46Bill Simmons?

  I'm good with eliminating the Colts.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  And we are both saying, we think the Chargers are going to lose this weekend to the Chiefs. For the Chiefs to make it at 10 and seven, they need the Chargers to lose in week 18 to Denver. They have to lose that game, which Denver.

• 58:06Bill Simmons?

  Which Denver might need because they're trying to get the one seed. Yeah, they might care.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  To your Pats. And then they just need the Chargers to lose one of at Dallas or home for Houston.

• 58:18Bill Simmons?

  But don't they have to finish above the Chargers?

• 58:20Speaker 01

  No. So this is what people have wrong. The, the first tiebreaker is head to head. The second tiebreaker is divisional record. They would be tied in both of those. The third tiebreaker, if you're in the same division, is not conference record. It's common opponent and the Chiefs have that. So at 10 and seven with the Chargers.

• 58:43Bill Simmons?

  I mean, this seems doable. You've kind of talked me into this. This would be amazing.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  All the, again, if the Chargers go 10 and seven, but beat Denver, meaning they lose Kansas City, Texans, Dallas, then, then we're, then they're out.

• 58:56Bill Simmons?

  How are the Chargers going to beat Houston?

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. And how, if the, if the Broncos need the game, how are they going to win in Denver?

• 59:05Bill Simmons?

  So you need the Patriots to beat Buffalo this weekend too.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  The Patriots to keep winning because I need Denver.

• 59:12Bill Simmons?

  You need week 18 to matter for both sides. Okay.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  I need week 18 Denver and then we're aligned. I'm telling you.

• 59:19Bill Simmons?

  And then maybe Mahomes doesn't get traded to Dallas.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Okay. And then maybe.

• 59:24Bill Simmons?

  Wait, can I pick a beef on one of your takes?

• 59:27Speaker 01

  It's your show. Do whatever you want.

• 59:31Bill Simmons?

  Your whole, I saw what you, you try, I saw the pox you're trying to put on Josh Allen.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 59:38Bill Simmons?

  I saw what you did. I saw the, the clip came across my Twitter feed where you did the whole, "It is all set up for Josh Allen."

• 59:46Speaker 01

  It's all it is.

• 59:47Bill Simmons?

  "He has to win now."

• 59:49Speaker 01

  He does.

• 59:49Bill Simmons?

  "This is lined up. If he doesn't win, it's a huge failure." I saw the whole thing you did.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  I didn't say it's a huge failure, but...

• 59:55Bill Simmons?

  It was a good take, but it was ridiculous.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  What do you mean? Bill?

• 59:59Bill Simmons?

  Because the Bills aren't that good. They don't, they, their rece, their top receiver catch output last week was two. They don't have a receiver who can catch the ball nine yards past the, past the first down line. They're doing everything dink and dunk like you guys a couple of years ago.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  That's not...

• 1:00:15Bill Simmons?

  This is all Allen. Like, if he gets into the Super Bowl with the offense he has, this would be a miracle.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  It, it, it would be, it is, you're a hundred percent right. It's all Allen. And as much as I, to the marrow of my bones, hated and texted mutual friends about your preseason Josh Allen take, it has aged well. Um, and so I give you credit there.

• 1:00:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, aged well is kind of an understatement. It's, it's aged amazingly. I, I put Josh over Mahomes and it was the right call.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  So...

• 1:00:47Bill Simmons?

  I didn't feel great about it, but that's how I felt.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  So, but with, so here's, but here's what my take actually is. It has nothing to do with how good the team is. It is. It's actually kind of a Patriot compliment. If you're Josh Allen.

• 1:01:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  And you have been a legitimate contender for the last five years. And in those five years, you have been bounced in the playoffs, four times by Patrick Mahomes, and once by Joe Burrow, and in those years played good, close, but you have won playoff games against Lamar. And you have had a cakewalk of a division where every year it's like, "We're gonna have a home playoff game."

• 1:01:26Bill Simmons?

  Until this year. Yeah.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  We're gonna, right. And you go through that entire stretch and you don't make a Super Bowl. And then you have a season where Patrick, Josh and Lamar, I'm sorry, Patrick, Joe and Lamar are not even in the playoffs. And by the way.

• 1:01:46Bill Simmons?

  And Lamar's been replaced by an alien.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I want to ask you about that. And you know, oh shit, the division is about to be really hard because Drake May's awesome. You can't have a half decade of a terrible division and not break through and then a playoff run where you're the only in their prime Hall of Fame quarterback in the whole tournament on your side of the bracket.

• 1:02:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but what do you do with the 13, what do you do with the 13 seconds game in this argument, though?

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  No, it's.

• 1:02:19Bill Simmons?

  He did everything he should have done in that game and his coach screwed it up and the special teams, everything. That's like terrible by him.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  I totally agree with you. I think you're miss and it's probably means.

• 1:02:31Bill Simmons?

  No, I see what you mean. On, on paper, if he doesn't make it, as the years pass.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  You're gonna be like, wow.

• 1:02:39Bill Simmons?

  And not remember all the details and all the little things that happen.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  And it's not even about like, like, I want to make it clear. I'm not saying like, oh, it's a choke job if he doesn't make it or like, or he didn't make it in the past because like 13 second game, he was all.

• 1:02:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, framed it like it was a little bit of a choke job.

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  What I'm saying is.

• 1:02:57Bill Simmons?

  It's a negative framing. There was negative framing you did.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  It is a, a missed opportunity. He'll never have a playoffs again, I imagine, that Joe Burrow, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes are not in. And this is likely the worst Drake May will ever be in his career.

• 1:03:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, and also like, uh, listen, I love this Pats team. There's 19 different signs that they, they might've overachieved. That this is peak Pats right now. Then you look at Denver, a team I don't think anyone's afraid of with a quarterback. I don't trust it all when we get to January.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  You agree with me. The Bills gotta get to the Super Bowl.

• 1:03:35Bill Simmons?

  But I don't think, I, I don't like teams that don't get explosive plays. Like basically he's the explosive play.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:43Bill Simmons?

  But their receivers, I think are, it's the worst it's ever been. Can we talk about, um?

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Can we, can I ask you about Lamar real quick?

• 1:03:52Bill Simmons?

  Or do you not want to? Yet, no, ask me.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Can somebody please report on whether or not Lamar Jackson and John Harbaugh even talk to each other? This is the weirdest fucking story in the league. So it is every time Lamar has suffered an injury in his career, John Harbaugh has had one timeline about when Lamar is going to play and Lamar has had a totally different one. We were told three years ago, oh, it's nothing close to season ending. It was season ending. The next year we were told, we think he's going to be back in a week. It was season ending. This year, he was asked about why they had optimism after the bye. He's like, well, we're going to have our quarterback back. The game comes after the bye. The quarterback is not back.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  He then finally does come back and he has different random injuries that cause him to miss a day of practice. And by the way, plays the worst football of his career while missing a day of practice each week. The worst football of his career.

• 1:04:56Bill Simmons?

  Did you see the next gen stats? His mph is way down this year.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, he doesn't really.

• 1:05:01Bill Simmons?

  It's like down to like 12 miles an hour now. No, seriously, I read that today. He's went from like 16 to 12.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  And by the way, passes the eye test. He doesn't run and he's not as fast.

• 1:05:11Bill Simmons?

  I think I could run 12.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  The 12? That's a five minute mile.

• 1:05:16Bill Simmons?

  I think if I had a lot of coffee and maybe some cocaine, I think I can run 12.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  But just to finish it, this week Lamar doesn't practice Wednesday. He's it's listed as no injury. Harbaugh, when he's asked about it, says, yeah, you know, I think when, you know, a player says they need the day, you have to, you know, you trust the player. Doesn't cover for him at all. Meanwhile.

• 1:05:40Bill Simmons?

  So you feel like we're in Kawhi territory here a little bit like 2018 Spurs Kawhi kinda area?

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  I think it's, I, I. Harbaugh over the last couple, remember like two off seasons ago, he's like, we believe Lamar Jackson is going to be not the best quarterback in the league, the greatest quarterback in the history of football. And then he, the following off season, so last off season, he was like, I want to make this clear. Forget running. As a pure passer of the football, Lamar's the greatest passer the league's ever seen. Like, eh, doth protest too much, buddy. Like, I think they're trying to fix a relationship and Lamar, I think is over it all. I think Lamar's checked out.

• 1:06:18Bill Simmons?

  I would bet if we, yeah, if we were doing like the fantasy draft of coaches, we don't think we'll be coaching the same team next year. I think he would be a very high pick, Harbaugh. And by the way, Sean McDermott, if this goes badly.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:33Bill Simmons?

  I think he's on the list. I think Sirianni's on the list. Like, that's funny. There's a lot of high profile coaches that, who knows?

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  Would you do this? Who, who says no to this trade? Cause you saw Joe Burrow, you saw Joe Burrow say, if I keep playing, I need to be happy again.

• 1:06:51Bill Simmons?

  So when House and I do picks?

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry.

• 1:06:53Bill Simmons?

  They said, no, no, I'm just saying, this made me want to take the Ravens, even though I don't even think they're good. It's like, you, it seemed like Burrow was having like an existential crisis at the podium. You know, and I don't blame him because they spend the least amount of money of anyone other than maybe the Pats. They never are able to block. Um, I don't know. I wouldn't want to be Joe Burrow in Cincinnati. I'd want to go somewhere else.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  So I have two.

• 1:07:20Bill Simmons?

  Are you talking Burrow for Lamar, just straight up, like NBA style, like Jason Kidd, Stephon Marbury style?

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  I don't think they would do it within the division. And I think there's going to fire the coach in Baltimore and keep the quarterback. Joe Burrow for Jalen Hurts and one first round pick.

• 1:07:44Bill Simmons?

  I'd want more if I was Cincinnati, considering people are wearing Tanner McKee jerseys in Philadelphia right now.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  That's fair, but it's, but that's at least, we're at least having the conversation, right? Like it's a, hey, Jalen's gonna be available.

• 1:07:57Bill Simmons?

  You can't even make football trades like that, which is by the way, what the NBA has turned into now where this, these stupid aprons have ruined all the like fun trades we can make, but.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  All right, I got one.

• 1:08:07Bill Simmons?

  Joe Burrow, if Joe Burrow went to the Eagles, then God help us.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  He's got these two receivers, like you know.

• 1:08:16Bill Simmons?

  God help us.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  The other, the other, there are the two other ones that involve draft picks are, um, cause in the NFL, the most first round picks you can trade is three, unless you have extra picks one year. You know, who has an extra?

• 1:08:28Bill Simmons?

  You mean like the Rams?

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  The Rams, if Stafford retires, I could see the Rams trading four firsts and three seconds for Joe Burrow.

• 1:08:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, the Rams got that Falcons pick.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:08:39Bill Simmons?

  For the 26 last year, that's now like the eighth pick in the draft.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  So I think the Rams would trade four firsts for Joe Burrow, and I think the Vikings would trade three firsts, three seconds and J J McCarthy. And Joe Burrow gets to be with college teammate, Justin Jefferson. I just know he's not happy. It's year six and he's saying, if I want to keep playing, that's terrifying.

• 1:09:01Bill Simmons?

  I gotta say, if I was a QB trying to look at my next 10 years, I would want to be warm weather endorse. I, I think Brady was an anomaly. I think Mahomes has been an anomaly, but just in general, especially when you get to these December, January games, like T Higgins, his head hits that like he's, he's just a concussion. Like you're playing on a concrete parking lot, basically. Um, I have some quick questions before we go, cause I already kept you for an hour. Why does, why do you think Kevin Wilds hates conflict so much? Do you think it's like a childhood thing? Like what, what is it with him? Why does he just always want everyone to get along at all times and then he's on a sports take show?

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  So I, I one time in passing described our job as competitive sports debate. And Wilds had like a record scratch, full stop moment where he's like, hold on. To be clear, that is not what we do. I'm like, yes, it is. And he's like, no, it's just a good hang.

• 1:10:04Bill Simmons?

  We're having fun.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  You and I are trying to do different jobs, bro.

• 1:10:07Bill Simmons?

  Having fun talking about sports in a polite way.

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  Chatting. Now, I don't know if you've noticed, a new Wilds has emerged.

• 1:10:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, confident Patriots wild. Yeah. Oh, I, I noticed.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  The, as the Chiefs have fallen and the Patriots have risen, we are really getting, you know, peacock in Kevin Wilds as he regularly says right before the show starts. Well, because Bruiser Ravens guy, I'm Chiefs. I guess I'm gonna have to carry the show again today.

• 1:10:38Bill Simmons?

  Right. It's the, as the only, uh, yeah.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Only team that's good. All right. What else?

• 1:10:45Bill Simmons?

  With the Wilds thing. So, I mean, I've known Wilds for almost 20 years. You did this whole thing about media rivals, like your weight class, your generation of, of sports media rivals. Where, where, when did you do that?

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  So I did that and you know, that was the first domino in a thing that landed yesterday in.

• 1:11:06Bill Simmons?

  Oh, the Pablo thing. Yeah. You talked about other people, your age range?

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I said, anyone who does what I do or similar to what I do, that is my age or younger, I consider a rival.

• 1:11:18Bill Simmons?

  You want to vanquish them?

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  And I will vanquish them. Like I need to be. In my head, atop that, like, I don't, I've never really felt like I'm competing with you, because I grew up reading you or whatever. I feel like you're competing with Colin and with Dan, you know what I mean? Like, that, you're that generation. And I know you and Colin do different things, but like, I do it like Colin Lebatard, Dan Patrick, to me, we're all like, competing for the same turf. So I had that for me.

• 1:11:51Bill Simmons?

  I disagree. I don't feel like I compete with any of those guys.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Well, you're in a different way.

• 1:11:57Bill Simmons?

  I don't even think about shit like that. I like how you're thinking of it, though. Like, you're rising up, you're rising up the ranks, these other people are rising up the ranks, and you want to destroy them as you're rising up the ranks.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Correct. And I tried to convince Wilds.

• 1:12:10Bill Simmons?

  Right. Wilds needs a feud. That's what we're, that's what we're getting.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  So there's an obvious one he should have.

• 1:12:17Bill Simmons?

  Oh, can I guess?

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  He has an obvious rival.

• 1:12:22Bill Simmons?

  So age range?

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Age range?

• 1:12:24Bill Simmons?

  Is it Peter Schrager?

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  No. Similar job as well.

• 1:12:29Bill Simmons?

  Similar job. So like, kind of ringmaster for a show. Mike Greenberg?

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:35Bill Simmons?

  Greeny?

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Yes. I want Wilds to start occasionally just dropping little sub, sub tweets about Greeny.

• 1:12:48Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I'm happy to do that on this podcast to try to see if I can get it going. That sounds great.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  He will be so mad when he hears this. Because Wilds is like, I don't, I don't want a rival. He thinks I'm insane. The whole thing. And I'm like, bro, Greeny's, Greeny's standing between you and the Emmy. Like, I always, I always try to stoke it, but he won't.

• 1:13:13Bill Simmons?

  He's in your way.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  He's standing between you and what you've worked for, but he won't listen to me on it. It's like, he's a Jets fan, you're a Pats fan. Like, it all makes sense. You both really care about your hair. Like, it makes sense.

• 1:13:30Bill Simmons?

  Wait, before we go, this is my last question for you.

• 1:13:36Bill Simmons?

  What do you want for the rest of the 2020s with LeBron James? What would be your wish? How does it, how does it, what's the perfect way for it to play out?

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  One more season.

• 1:13:46Bill Simmons?

  Who's your favorite player?

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so my all time, for this year to go fine, you know, nothing crazy this year. Like, I, I think the, I disagree with Rich. I think the ceiling is the conference finals, but they would have to get, you know, pretty lucky in the seeding and all of it. I just think, I think, I think people sometimes forget how great Luca is. That's more of a Luca take than a LeBron take. Um, but for this year to not have anything crazy, LeBron to be healthy. Um, and

• 1:14:21Bill Simmons?

  And then where's next year? What's your dream next year?

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Cleveland or New York. One year.

• 1:14:28Bill Simmons?

  Feels like Cleveland's the move. Right?

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  New York would be pretty sick.

• 1:14:33Bill Simmons?

  It sounds like Cleveland's lights out right now. I mean, they're kind of a mess, right? And they'll, they'll be in that kinda, we gotta shake things up. Maybe he goes in, plays for a minimum.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  And, and I guess my other dream would be that if somehow he rallies this year and once again makes an all NBA team that Bill Simmons Ringer 100 rankings going into the season.

• 1:14:56Bill Simmons?

  Too many good players this year. No, well, that's true. That's fair.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  Guy was sixth in MVP voting last year. How many times do I have to hear about how, how Kevin Durant's better than LeBron James? When he's never been better than LeBron James one year of his life? From, from the guy that wrote the book of basketball. I gotta listen to how LeBron's an injury risk. I'm like, I don't know, Durant's not healthy all that much. LeBron's a problem with teams. Every team Durant goes to is miserable and I gotta listen to how Durant's 12 and LeBron is competing. For, it's like, I don't know where to put LeBron. 24 felt good to me.

• 1:15:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, he got hurt.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  Is he better than Alex Caruso?

• 1:15:33Bill Simmons?

  We do the rankings because he's 41.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Fucking kidding me, bro.

• 1:15:35Bill Simmons?

  He's 41. We don't know if he can play 40 games.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Last year, he was awesome. He was awesome last year.

• 1:15:40Bill Simmons?

  We put him like 11.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks to the other people. Your ranking was dragging him down.

• 1:15:45Bill Simmons?

  No, I had him high by the end. I voted for him. Second team all NBA.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I appreciate it.

• 1:15:50Bill Simmons?

  I call it like it is. I voted for him for four MVPs.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that means you cost him three.

• 1:15:56Bill Simmons?

  What are the three? Were there three?

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  The, so I, I've heard you do this.

• 1:16:01Bill Simmons?

  No, there's only four. 2018 is his only other case, but then that, then you have to just throw out the three weeks when he was throwing the tantrum and trying to get them to make trades.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  2018.

• 1:16:11Bill Simmons?

  Toss it away.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  2018, there is a great argument.

• 1:16:15Bill Simmons?

  There is.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  The, the year he finished.

• 1:16:19Bill Simmons?

  The first Miami year, there's a retroactive argument. No question.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  And the, the year Nash, he finished second in one of the Nash years.

• 1:16:29Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah. Oh.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  So 06.

• 1:16:32Bill Simmons?

  06, maybe. Yeah, there's a case. That Kobe should have won that year, though.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  The.

• 1:16:35Bill Simmons?

  Kobe should have two.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  That's, 06? They didn't even make the playoffs.

• 1:16:40Bill Simmons?

  No, Kobe, that was the year they made the playoffs and he averaged 35 a game and it was fucking crazy.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:16:46Bill Simmons?

  He should have won that year.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  Oh, you're right. 05, they missed the playoffs. 06. So that, that, so those would be the years that I.

• 1:16:53Bill Simmons?

  I thought it was interesting. LeBron, I, it's not like he's unearthing a shitload of gems on that Mind the Game show. But him saying, no, I'm just saying, I'm not, I'm not like.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Saying that 2018 was my peak is, is interesting. Is that what you were about to say?

• 1:17:08Bill Simmons?

  I actually had a couple of conversations about that with basketball friends. I was like, wow, I would have gone with that second Miami title year when they won the streak when he was shooting like 60% for half the year. Like, and he was like the best defensive player in the league on top of it.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:17:25Bill Simmons?

  But he was like adamant it was 18.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  So that Miami year, he was the best defensive player in basketball. So that's the argument there.

• 1:17:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, on top of he shot 60%, he was like queen of the chessboard. He was like peak of his powers that year. It was unbelievable to watch him.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  18, though, he had.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  The like that that 2018 playoff run.

• 1:17:47Bill Simmons?

  The playoff run is crazy.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Is the greatest playoff run of his career. And.

• 1:17:52Bill Simmons?

  The game seven, 48 minutes in Boston, like the shit he was doing, the game when he played against Golden State.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, that you've said it, and I agree with you. I wasn't there, but you've said that, you know, that might be the greatest game, individual game you've ever seen. And so I think that was like peak powers Bron. Also, by the way, on the MVPs thing, did you not think he had a legit argument in 2020?

• 1:18:21Bill Simmons?

  At the COVID year?

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  It was the COVID year. Giannis won it. He finished second. He, the Lakers had the best record in the league.

• 1:18:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  He was unbelievable, but okay.

• 1:18:31Bill Simmons?

  I think I voted for Giannis. He was in the mix though, no question. Um, all right. So the biggest thing we learned is that Mike Greenberg and Kevin Wilds need to feud.

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:40Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna do my best. We haven't solved my homes. You gave me hope for a Chiefs plus 580 playoff bet.

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  And if they make it, Bill, I'm telling you, part of this, part of the scenario is the Broncos have to beat the Chargers in week 18.

• 1:18:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  If that happens, the two seed probably will be New England. So if they make it, Chiefs, Pats, round one in Foxborough, you're a nightmare.

• 1:19:06Bill Simmons?

  Let's roll. Oh, my God.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  Nightmare.

• 1:19:09Bill Simmons?

  It'll be an amazing way to end the dynasty of the Chiefs, the mini dynasty.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Oh, the mini dynasty. Thanks for having me on, Bill.

• 1:19:15Bill Simmons?

  All right, Nick Wright, solid A minus. I thought you did a great job.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  You know what? I, I just give myself a B plus.

• 1:19:22Bill Simmons?

  Okay, great job. Good to see you. Hey, as you know, I'm a Patriots fan. Big game this weekend against the Bills. We kind of need it. I'm gonna make some predictions using, uh, FanDuel's odds that they have, some of the props for this. One of them is will Drake May use his legs more against better competition? This would be the Mahomes model. I only scramble when I really need it in big games. 20.5 rush yards over, 100% over. Uh, will the Bills continue to run effectively against my Patriots? So now Milton Williams? James Cook, 80 plus five rushing yards. I'm going under on that. The Pats have been good against the run, even with the, I know it's down a little bit since Williams left, but I still feel like they're gonna move everybody up and make Allen throw the ball.

• 1:20:07Bill Simmons?

  And then last but not least, uh, will Diggs have another revenge game against Buffalo? Forty-seven and a half receiving yards. I would go way over on that because I think this is the game where you unleash stakes. He plays way more snaps than he's played all year and you're relying on him on any third down. A dark horse anytime TD pick. It's always Hunter Henry in a big game. That's always where Drake May seems to look when he really needs him. So I would look at whatever his odds are. Usually they're in the 200 to 300 range. He can bet all these Ringer 107 picks and so much more on FanDuel. Be sure to check all the available betting markets before the Sunday games. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right.

• 1:20:50Bill Simmons?

  It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Opening US residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1

• 1:21:35Bill Simmons?

  series lead. But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three, Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. All right, Joe House is here. He's sick. He's tired. It's 5:00 PM on a Thursday. I said at the top of the pod, House, if we don't win our picks this week, you're getting fired as my conciliary. We're still gonna do all the games. I'm just gonna go rogue. Not even involve you in the final five. This is it. You gotta step up. You're like Lamar Jackson.

• 1:22:16Bill Simmons?

  I need to see something. Now, we've just had terrible luck and it's getting to the point where we're near the playoffs. Something needs to change. May I have to bring back our picks relationship person, Billy Gill?

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  Oh, that was pretty good. Or we could have Verno on and go 4-1 again. You know, all our picks correct and Verno incorrect.

• 1:22:36Bill Simmons?

  I just had Nick Wright on for like an hour and 15 minutes and somehow we didn't talk about Phil Rivers.

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:22:43Bill Simmons?

  And I haven't talked about Phil Rivers all week. I think this is one of the most unbelievable sports stories of all time. My immediate, my head went right to how can we bet against this? Not playing for five years, but he knows the offense. This is absolutely ridiculous that he could just step onto the field with the speed of an NFL game. And he's playing the Seahawks unfortunately. A team that has either the best or second best defense in the league, depending how you feel about Texans. I'd have them second. And I can't think of a worse situation. Not only has he come back to play them, he's playing the Niners, the Jags, and then he's finishing at Houston. Are they trying to kill him? Why are they doing this?

• 1:23:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, over under on number of games that he completes? Do you think that he makes it out of this, this first game healthy?

• 1:23:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, to go through those first three and then you have to end with Houston, a team of freaking pit bulls? Like what a nightmare. It shows how desperate they are. It also shows you that we really only have about 40 capable quarterbacks alive who could play an NFL game. To the point that it seems like instead of signing somebody on a practice squad who's going to get annihilated. Maybe Phil Rivers will be better after not playing for five years. I did go back and look up his 2020 and some of my notes from that year, like a week by week. He wasn't bad on those Colts teams and even was okay in the playoff game and we never, I never had anything in my notes like with the pods was sour anywhere else. It was like Phil looks washed. It's over. It wasn't like the Matt Ryan situation, but it was five years ago.

• 1:24:18Bill Simmons?

  Your kid was 10 years old, five years ago.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  I don't think he ever really lost arm strength. I mean, I will have to check the next gen stats to see how many miles an hour he was throwing five years ago. But the thing that that became the real issue is he couldn't move and I don't think that got any better.

• 1:24:38Bill Simmons?

  I don't think that got any better house. So my guess is this is as we go to ringer 107. We had another classic week like the we have the bears. We think it's going to be a tight game. It was it's a one score game. They're inside the 20 turnover. They don't cover by half point. And then we had the the Eagles, which maybe we should have known, but I just think that Chargers team is so lousy, not by a lot of fault of theirs. They've had so many injuries, but I just still can't believe the Eagles didn't finish that game. I don't know. I didn't. I watched the whole game and I still don't really fully understand what happened.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  By the by the time Sunday rolled around, I will say this, I could not figure out why we didn't pick the Rams at the Cardinals. Why didn't we pick the Rams laying? I laid on the Sunday show 24 and a half or 23 and a half points at plus 470. That was one of my my favorite bets of the week.

• 1:25:38Bill Simmons?

  You know what? I maybe for ringer 107 next year, we're going to have to have more gimmicky bets because we're both pretty good at those.

• 1:25:45Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 1:25:46Bill Simmons?

  Versus the straight ups, or maybe we just have to make better picks. It's one or the other. The rivers say no. So this defense he's going against since week seven, starting with the week seven games, how many first half touchdowns do you think Seattle has given up? Seven games?

• 1:26:09Speaker 02

  Not very many.

• 1:26:11Bill Simmons?

  Four, two against the Rams.

• 1:26:13Speaker 02

  Yes. Okay, there you go.

• 1:26:16Bill Simmons?

  My guess is they're going to do the super conservative handoff, handoff, handoff, play action, handoff, handoff, play action. I don't think that's working in Seattle, especially when you look at the track record of these things, but it does make me like the under. I want to throw this to you, though.

• 1:26:35Bill Simmons?

  The Curse of Peyton Manning.

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:26:38Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if I'm test driving this for you, for you in the audience. So remember Peyton Manning gets hurt? And the Colts have a terrible season.

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:26:47Bill Simmons?

  And they end up getting their number one pick and they get Andrew Luck.

• 1:26:50Speaker 02

  Incredible.

• 1:26:50Bill Simmons?

  Peyton Manning, a hero in Indianapolis, beloved.

• 1:26:53Speaker 02

  Beloved.

• 1:26:54Bill Simmons?

  It's like, oh, they'll just probably trade out of that pick. Trade down, get Peyton Manning some weapons. What do they do? Peyton, thanks for everything. Send him packing. He goes to Denver and goes on a huge revenge tour. And they have Andrew Luck. Since that happened, they get Luck. He ends up getting banged up, retires. Jacoby Brissette, Phil Rivers, Carson Wentz, Matt Ryan, Gardner Minshew, Anthony Richardson, drafted top five. Danny Dimes, they finally struck oil. Blows out his Achilles. Now they've turned back to 45 year old Philip Rivers. I think it all goes back to that Peyton Manning decision and the rules of karma.

• 1:27:39Bill Simmons?

  Doing that to your best guy.

• 1:27:40Speaker 02

  I think they would.

• 1:27:41Bill Simmons?

  They gotta look at the mayor a little bit, I think.

• 1:27:43Speaker 02

  Don't you think they would do that over again to have Andrew Luck?

• 1:27:51Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't, if it was the Pats with Brady.

• 1:27:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:55Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have been cool with it. I get it. I understand. It's just, I don't know, pretty cutthroat. So you have no takes on this? How much cold medication are you on right now? Should we just zip through these picks?

• 1:28:07Speaker 02

  Quite a bit, quite a bit. No, I, you know, I'll get some energy going here. I have, I like a lot of picks.

• 1:28:12Bill Simmons?

  Please do. We're videotaping this and it's running as a podcast. Well, I was looking Seahawks minus 13 and a half, but we could take that to Seattle minus six and a half with the under of 48 and a half as a parlay.

• 1:28:25Speaker 02

  Great.

• 1:28:25Bill Simmons?

  Get us in the minus 120 and just make that at one of our picks.

• 1:28:29Speaker 02

  Sure. Done. Say less. That's easy.

• 1:28:32Bill Simmons?

  Is that game go to 49 points? Is there a scenario?

• 1:28:35Speaker 02

  No. No, I mean, it would only be if Seattle ends up with a bunch of short fields and scores, you know, remember Seattle a handful of times this season has come out in the first half and dropped like 35 points on a team before, you know, the first, the first five drives.

• 1:28:51Bill Simmons?

  Well, and the Colts lost Gardner, Ward had a concussion. They do get Buckner back for the defensive line, but I just, I can't imagine. I, my, my guess is the Colts are going to try to really slow this game down. 40 seconds of play.

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 1:29:05Bill Simmons?

  Let's do nothing crazy. Field goals. Let's try to, you know, make Seattle make some plays on offense and it'll just be one of those games that each team has the ball six times or something.

• 1:29:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:17Bill Simmons?

  So, all right. So Seattle minus six and a half, under 48 and a half. I only had one maybe game. And it's the Ravens and the Bengals. It's Ravens in Cincinnati. Ravens minus two and a half. The Ravens had a five game winning streak, then they lose to the Steelers by five. It's winner go home for them. There's no T. Higgins. And yet, it's 18 degrees in Cincinnati. Joe Burrow's been good in the cold weather. Lamar has not been a huge fan over the years. And then Joe Burrow has the press conference this week that Nick Wright and I just talked about, where he seemed like he was having like a crisis on the podium about, I don't know why I'm doing this. Like, it was like one of those where clearly wasn't

• 1:30:02Bill Simmons?

  super happy from a football standpoint. So I feel like it's a stay away, but I wanted to talk it out. Did you have some strong thoughts on this?

• 1:30:10Speaker 02

  I would play the Ravens. The, the way that they lost the last two games to, to these Bengals and then the Steelers were both like so heavily unlucky for them. I mean, the, the way the ball bounced with the turnovers against the, the Bengals and the short fields they gave.

• 1:30:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they likely play all that stuff.

• 1:30:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then to follow that up with basically a, a carbon copy against the Steelers, turning the ball over, you know, and, and game deciding plays.

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  One, one, but both times involving the refs. I mean, the, the roughing call on the center turned into four more points for the Steelers. And, you know, Isaiah likely catching the ball, holding it for two steps, but not, you know, dancing a pirouette with it and doing the splits means that it's not a catch. So Ravens lose.

• 1:31:09Bill Simmons?

  I had the Ravens marked down as well as a minus two and a half.

• 1:31:14Bill Simmons?

  Maybe we'll use it.

• 1:31:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. If the revenge spot makes sense, the season's over if they don't win.

• 1:31:20Bill Simmons?

  Just quickly, do any of these games, did you had any of these games written down? Rams, Saints, Colts, Browns, Giants, Eagles, Jaguars, Texans, Niners, Cowboys, or, or, uh, that's it. Any of those on your list?

• 1:31:35Speaker 02

  I did have Rams. Um, I think.

• 1:31:37Bill Simmons?

  Rams minus six and a half at home against the Lions.

• 1:31:40Speaker 02

  I thought it was five and a half, but in, in either way, it's, it's fine. I think that they are capable of, um, winning by margin. This is a, just a brutal situation for the Detroit defense. The Brian Branch injury just can't, you can't overstate how meaningful that is. They are on like their fourth string and fifth string safeties right now. Terry Arnold's been out for a bit. They don't get pressure anyhow. And so I think the.

• 1:32:07Bill Simmons?

  Is this gonna be on the Sunday show? Is this a Rams 30 plus points?

• 1:32:11Speaker 02

  It might be.

• 1:32:11Bill Simmons?

  It's gonna be one of your picks?

• 1:32:12Speaker 02

  It might be. There's two, two candidates for that where I'm gonna alt spread. Um, I might do both. We'll see. Rams is definitely one of them, especially the way they, they took care of business against the Cardinals.

• 1:32:23Bill Simmons?

  All right. I'm taking Bills, Pats off the board because I think the Bills are the pick and I don't want to pick the Bills. We did that once in Ringer 107. I didn't feel good about it. 29 degrees with snow.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  That's so fun. Let's just watch it and enjoy it.

• 1:32:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I just.

• 1:32:43Speaker 02

  It's gonna be great.

• 1:32:44Bill Simmons?

  No, no Milton Williams.

• 1:32:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:47Bill Simmons?

  Buffalo needs it a little more than the Pats, but then the Pats are coming off a bye.

• 1:32:52Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:32:54Bill Simmons?

  No left tackle for the Pats. That makes me nervous, but the Bills have no explosive receivers. It was a pick 'em all week. It ended in Bills minus one and a half right now.

• 1:33:04Bill Simmons?

  It feels like the kind of game the Bills should win and will win. And when you go back to the 2320 Sunday night game, the Pats, even though they won, a lot of things won right in that game and they barely won.

• 1:33:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was three turnovers and 11 penalties on the Bills at home.

• 1:33:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:21Speaker 02

  This one to me is just, you know, if, if I had to bet it, I would just bet on Josh Allen and that's it.

• 1:33:27Bill Simmons?

  Dolphins Steelers in Pittsburgh.

• 1:33:29Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:33:31Bill Simmons?

  Steelers minus three. Pittsburgh's defense 27th EPA against the run. Miami has reinvented themselves. This is power running team. Although we don't know how healthy Achan's gonna be. It's a Minka Fitzpatrick revenge game.

• 1:33:45Bill Simmons?

  TJ Watt's probably out. And Aaron Rodgers who looked good last week would have to then do that two weeks in a row. The catch is it's a Monday night game and it's gonna be like 20 degrees and it's Tua in cold weather.

• 1:33:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:00Bill Simmons?

  But then the zag on that, because normally like Tua cold weather done. The zag would be, oh, you should press the cough button. Wow. You really are sick. The zag would be, yeah, that's why you'd take the Steelers, but that's actually stupid because they don't really rely on Tua anymore. He barely has to do anything. They run, run, run, run. They don't want to ever have them screw anything up. So this is actually the perfect time to take Tua. And the line feels a little high to me. I gotta be honest. I don't see any difference with these teams. This feels to me should be Tic Tac 1.5.

• 1:34:35Speaker 02

  Hmm, interesting.

• 1:34:37Bill Simmons?

  So I don't mind the Dolphins case. I think they've been pretty good the last couple of weeks.

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  I agree. And to your point, you know, I sat down after we took the abysmal Jets and tried to do the math on what, you know, that was just a bad read. Tua threw the ball 20 or 21 times for like 125 yards and the Dolphins ran the ball 41 times for, you know, 200 yards or whatever. And Achan just had, had his way. I think that's, that's not a bad blueprint for, for going up against this Steelers team.

• 1:35:12Bill Simmons?

  And look, Tua, he did it in the Jets game. Sal and I talked about it. He had a screen pass like from his own goal line that almost got picked off. It was just awful. I know he's gonna do that. He's going against the Steelers team that has had a horseshoe in its ass for most of the year. Maybe it's one of those things where it's like, I can't believe we bet on two in 20 degree weather. What are we doing? But it's literally the only reason I can think of not to bet the Dolphins in this game, other than you continually pressing the cough button and not knowing where we are at this point. But I just feel like this is an either, either team could win game and we're getting a point and a half. I think the Dolphins are just better.

• 1:35:52Bill Simmons?

  Which surprises me to say, because I have all those unders that I had from before the season. I think half of them are probably going to lose at this point, but.

• 1:36:02Speaker 02

  I want to do some research. I understand directionally what you're doing and it's correct because the Dolphins were getting three and a half and it moved down to three. And at this stage of the week, for that to happen, that means it's sharp money. It's not, the public isn't betting on the Dolphins and the Steelers on Monday Night Football yet. So that to me means that we're thinking correctly about the handicap for this one. I just wonder, there are other games out there.

• 1:36:31Bill Simmons?

  Well, you left out the part that we've lost on the Steelers one way or the other, I think, seven times this year. So let's, let's go back for more. Let's try to solve them.

• 1:36:43Bill Simmons?

  I have two more games. This is my second favorite game of the week. Packers, Broncos, Packers and Denver.

• 1:36:51Bill Simmons?

  Denver, I have them as six wins, zero losses and seven either or games. Nobody has legitimately beaten them this year. So if they're a professional wrestler, it'd be a lot of like ref countouts, somebody interfered with the match, but they haven't actually been pinned. And I really think this is the week.

• 1:37:10Bill Simmons?

  To me, like the, if you're going to go over, under regression for the Pats regression on the Broncos, the over under is one. And I think the bet probably is to say over on both, but I just think the Packers are better. I don't think they even care where they play. And

• 1:37:30Bill Simmons?

  I think they might have the best all around team in the league right now. That they could, they could do the thing where they score 14 points and we're furious at ourselves.

• 1:37:40Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 1:37:41Bill Simmons?

  I don't see it. I think they're good. I just think they go in there and roll.

• 1:37:44Speaker 02

  So it's schematically

• 1:37:48Speaker 02

  a matchup that really favors the Packers and really disfavors the Broncos. So the Broncos play single high safety and they also play man coverage and Jordan Love has been extraordinary against those two defenses. And on the other side, Packers love to play zone and Bo Nix gets lost in zone. I mean, we just watched Jalen Hurts, yeah, good God, get lost in zone. I think it's similar. The only thing that gives me pause is each time the Broncos have played a team that is a step up in class, they've really been impressive. I mean, they beat Kansas City at home. They went to Houston and won. Now that was, you know, they knocked out CJ Stroud.

• 1:38:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:34Speaker 02

  They went into Philly and won. You know, the Dallas win was was pretty legit. So I that that's the only concern, but I'm with you. I'm prepared to play the Packers here.

• 1:38:50Bill Simmons?

  So those games you listed that were their best wins. KC, team with a losing record. Philly, a team that's in a free fall. Houston, Stroud got hurt.

• 1:39:05Bill Simmons?

  They should have beaten Indianapolis during a time when Indianapolis was playing well.

• 1:39:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:09Bill Simmons?

  I mean, you can do this game with the Patriots, too. I just, to me, this is like a weight class game. I think the Packers are heavyweights and I think the Broncos are light heavyweights.

• 1:39:18Speaker 02

  It's literally.

• 1:39:18Bill Simmons?

  By the way, I think the Patriots might be light heavyweights, too, just for the record.

• 1:39:22Speaker 02

  Well, I totally agree with you, which is why I did that exercise of going through their schedule.

• 1:39:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:26Speaker 02

  This is a, this is a uptick in class. How have they done when they, when the class is up? But I, it's a different version. I, this, this Packers team keeps showing us and I have no problem at all with them on the road.

• 1:39:38Bill Simmons?

  And also the, what the Bears were trying to do to them last week and did to some degree, as they held Parsons for three straight hours, which I'm sure 50 of those clips got sent to the NFL league office.

• 1:39:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:39:52Bill Simmons?

  I just don't, I, I just. I actually think that should have been a slightly different game. Because the Bears couldn't really throw the ball at all. You know, and they were running, running, running, but and then every time they passed, it felt like Parsons was just getting mauled.

• 1:40:07Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:40:09Bill Simmons?

  All right, last game Chiefs Chargers. Nick and I talked about this earlier. I already tipped our hand on this. Seventeen degrees.

• 1:40:19Bill Simmons?

  Chargers offensive line on the road. It's not even good at home. This is a classic Lombardi bad lines, don't travel game. Chargers have been under forty nine points their total games in every game since week seven. The Chiefs have six wins this year by thirteen fifteen thirteen thirty one twenty one and three. Only one of those games won over forty eight. And you could either do the parlay of Chiefs money under forty eight and a half. Which I think is a great bet and I'm gonna, I'm gonna probably do.

• 1:40:51Bill Simmons?

  In real life, or you just smash the Chiefs at five and a half.

• 1:40:56Bill Simmons?

  And think that they're gonna get a lead.

• 1:40:59Bill Simmons?

  The Chargers aren't gonna be able to block. The Chiefs need the game. KC. It's gonna be even hard to get a backdoor cover if you can't block. Et cetera, et cetera. Just ride the Chiefs minus five and a half, which I think if we want to use that parlay option, we only have one in ring one oh seven. On Seattle in the under to get that game in there, then it's just Chiefs, fuck it. Chiefs minus five and a half.

• 1:41:21Speaker 02

  I much, much, much prefer that approach to this. Let's use the parlay on Seattle because I think the Chiefs are, this is a smash spot. They, this is another one where I'm gonna play alt spreads. It's just a brutal spot. For the Chargers coming off an overtime Monday night game that was physical the whole time. And you know, you mentioned that the pressure rate that the Eagles.

• 1:41:47Speaker 02

  Were able to mount was nearly seventy percent. They had seven sacks.

• 1:41:53Bill Simmons?

  No. Herbert has one hand.

• 1:41:55Speaker 02

  Herbert and, and it's going to be freezing, freezing. Yeah. And, and as it is. This Chargers team has not been good on the road. They got, since the offensive line injuries.

• 1:42:08Bill Simmons?

  Also, California team in cold weather is another fun one.

• 1:42:12Speaker 02

  Right, right, right. Yeah. Smoke by Jacksonville, you know, I don't think they covered against Tennessee.

• 1:42:21Speaker 02

  Barely won against Miami, lost to the Giants, just not, not a good team on the road.

• 1:42:29Bill Simmons?

  Is there a game we didn't mention that you think we should take? Cause I'm ready to lock in Ranger 107 right now.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  No, the only other one that I'm kind of inclined to dabble is, is probably Carolina.

• 1:42:43Bill Simmons?

  I did look at that one.

• 1:42:44Speaker 02

  For them, you know, there's, there's just Carolina and Baltimore are both in the same boat, which is it's revenge games. They're both on the road. For both of those teams, the, their, their playoff fortunes depend on them winning outright. So then, and you know, unsurprisingly, the line is the same in both games, basically.

• 1:43:07Bill Simmons?

  I did take a test drive of Browns plus seven and a half in Chicago in a 10 degree game and I couldn't get there.

• 1:43:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:43:15Bill Simmons?

  I did, I did, I did stare at it for a split second and then.

• 1:43:19Speaker 02

  That's too many points, but I don't want to bet it.

• 1:43:21Bill Simmons?

  And I also thought, I don't want to bet the Jets again after what happened last week.

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  Never again. That's it for the season.

• 1:43:28Bill Simmons?

  But the Jaguars being favored by 13 and a half over anyone in the league gave me pause.

• 1:43:32Speaker 02

  Do you know the last time they were favored by 11 points or more? Do you know this? I saw, I ran across this nugget in the research.

• 1:43:39Bill Simmons?

  1998?

• 1:43:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're not that far off. It was 2007. The last time they were favored by 11 points or more.

• 1:43:48Bill Simmons?

  Wow. I didn't even know their quarterback was. I, there was a Vikings, just that line's too high too. There were a couple of lines where I'm like, wow, that's too high. Cowboys minus six and a half against the Vikings when we don't know if CD's playing.

• 1:44:03Bill Simmons?

  The Vikings are pretty much back defensively now and looked good last week.

• 1:44:07Speaker 02

  Three straight weeks of good defense.

• 1:44:09Bill Simmons?

  I thought that line would go down and it didn't.

• 1:44:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:11Bill Simmons?

  And I would, I would, I'll put it this way. I would never want to take Dallas minus six and a half. So I looked at that one as well.

• 1:44:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:18Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes. Yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FDIC. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV.

• 1:45:01Bill Simmons?

  You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching, just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. All right, bring a 107 brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook, where we are not going to take either side of the Bills Patriots game. I can't handle it emotionally. We're not going to take any game with House's commanders because you can't handle emotionally.

• 1:45:37Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:45:38Bill Simmons?

  But we are going to take, we are going to take Seattle in a parlay.

• 1:45:45Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:45:46Bill Simmons?

  Minus six and a half, under 48 and a half. Yes. Against 45 year old Phil Rivers. Do I feel bad that it's an old guy that we're rooting against when we're too old guys? And House can barely get through the podcast right now? No, I don't.

• 1:46:00Speaker 02

  What are you talking about?

• 1:46:00Bill Simmons?

  You did make it.

• 1:46:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:02Bill Simmons?

  There's one. Dolphins plus three against the Steelers. We are taking two in cold weather in the ultimate zag. People said they would, they never thought Simmons would ever do it. Take two in cold weather and especially with House as this is still here, but we said, fuck it. We did it.

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  On Monday night, we're going to be so mad, the texts to each other Monday night. I, this might be how you're going to fire me. It could be that, that, you know. It'll be Monday night.

• 1:46:29Bill Simmons?

  You didn't stop me?

• 1:46:31Speaker 02

  We'll need it. Yes, we'll need it to go three and two and you'll be like, you son of a bitch.

• 1:46:35Bill Simmons?

  I like how we did it, though. We couldn't come up with a single reason to take the Steelers other than plus the Steelers favorite is always a disaster.

• 1:46:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:44Bill Simmons?

  All right. So that's two Packers minus two and a half against the Broncos. We felt like this was a heavyweight against light heavyweight.

• 1:46:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:46:52Bill Simmons?

  Chiefs Chargers. Thought about a parlay here, but we're just going to, uh, Chargers don't a hundred percent need the game. Chiefs desperately need the game.

• 1:47:01Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:47:02Bill Simmons?

  Chiefs offensive line.

• 1:47:03Speaker 02

  Do need it.

• 1:47:04Bill Simmons?

  But the Chiefs are like, their season's over if they lose.

• 1:47:08Speaker 02

  But.

• 1:47:08Bill Simmons?

  Seventeen degrees. Chargers can't block. Don't overthink it. And then last but not least, we kind of begrudgingly landed on Ravens minus two and a half in Cincinnati. Based on a lot of different reasons, including winner go home for Baltimore, Bengal season over, no T Higgins, eighteen degrees and Cincy would be the reason not to like this.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:47:28Bill Simmons?

  With Lamar, but maybe this is a smash game where it's Derrick Henry being Derrick Henry again.

• 1:47:33Speaker 02

  Could, could happen.

• 1:47:36Bill Simmons?

  And I would just be surprised if the Bengals won this.

• 1:47:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:39Bill Simmons?

  Like Hendrickson went on IR this week. No Higgins. Like what?

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  They got their win.

• 1:47:44Bill Simmons?

  Sad in a press conference.

• 1:47:45Speaker 02

  The win that that made everybody excited, reminded everybody that Joe Burrow was Joe Burrow. That was on Thanksgiving. They, they, that was their Super Bowl and they almost validated it with a great effort against the Bills in Buffalo. But now tough spot, division rival. Um, they always split the Ravens and the Bengals. So this is the Ravens turn.

• 1:48:08Bill Simmons?

  That was the Ringer 107 presented by Fanduel Sportsbook. All lines subject to change. Speaking of Fanduel Sportsbook, I mentioned this to Nick earlier, has the Oklahoma City odds dropping for the seventy-four wins.

• 1:48:21Speaker 02

  Oh my God.

• 1:48:22Bill Simmons?

  Remember it was like plus six seventy? We were texting about it. What do you think it is now?

• 1:48:27Speaker 02

  Under four to one.

• 1:48:32Bill Simmons?

  Plus 235.

• 1:48:34Speaker 02

  Oh my God, that's horrendous.

• 1:48:36Bill Simmons?

  Plus 235, House.

• 1:48:38Speaker 02

  You know why that is, though? It's because it doesn't matter if guys get hurt. Like.

• 1:48:47Bill Simmons?

  We talked about if Shay just was out for the season tomorrow, would they still win like 62 games? And the answer might be yes.

• 1:48:54Speaker 02

  I would, I would definitely say yes.

• 1:48:56Bill Simmons?

  But I'm not gonna let, I hope that doesn't happen.

• 1:48:58Speaker 02

  We don't want that to happen. Not gonna let it too.

• 1:49:00Bill Simmons?

  There was a couple streak things too, including 29 plus games, beating Golden State's 28.

• 1:49:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:07Bill Simmons?

  That's plus 450.

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  Oh, that's terrible.

• 1:49:11Bill Simmons?

  Not great ads.

• 1:49:12Speaker 02

  You gotta give me 10 to one on that at least. It's only happened one effing time.

• 1:49:17Bill Simmons?

  Them to beat the Lakers 33, 12 to one.

• 1:49:21Speaker 02

  Okay, now you're talking. Now you're talking.

• 1:49:24Bill Simmons?

  What is it now? It's like 17?

• 1:49:27Speaker 02

  Something like that.

• 1:49:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cuz they're NBA cup. They're minus 250 now for the cup. They were minus 135 for a couple of days and it was the dumbest thing in there. Nobody's beating them. Nobody's beating them in the planet.

• 1:49:40Speaker 02

  Do these games count for the streak? The cup games?

• 1:49:44Bill Simmons?

  Good question, House.

• 1:49:47Speaker 02

  I want to check with the sports book.

• 1:49:49Bill Simmons?

  I thought the final game didn't count.

• 1:49:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:49:54Bill Simmons?

  But it should. Yeah, that's an interesting conundrum. I like that. Anything else you're noticing in NBA before we go? What have you guys been talking about in the Ranger Game Show?

• 1:50:04Speaker 02

  That Lakers performance, there's two performances where I wanted more out of Miami against Orlando and the Lakers against the Spurs. Now glass half full and give Stephon Castle this huge tip of the hat that he deserves. He took the game over. But Lakers, you have no chance if you're not gonna play defense. They just haven't, they just don't, they don't get out there. They don't rotate. They're, they should be athletic enough, but they're not.

• 1:50:35Bill Simmons?

  And I don't. Game was awful. I think there's just a certain type of team that's gonna give them a lot of problems all season. Those young athletic teams. Nick and I talked about that.

• 1:50:44Speaker 02

  Have you been in the trade? Go ahead.

• 1:50:46Bill Simmons?

  Did you at any point during that game think to yourself how the Wizards didn't take Castle?

• 1:50:56Bill Simmons?

  Even though most of the people at the Ringer thought he was the best bet to be the best part in that draft?

• 1:51:01Speaker 02

  Um, I honestly don't really think it was a big mistake taking Sar because he is such a one of one in terms of the size and the ability to make an impact on both ends.

• 1:51:15Bill Simmons?

  I like this. This is-

• 1:51:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think he might-

• 1:51:18Bill Simmons?

  Alex Sar is a one of one.

• 1:51:20Speaker 02

  He might ultimately be like a very good defender and you can see how well he moves out on the perimeter.

• 1:51:25Bill Simmons?

  I like Sar too. I think it's defensible.

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, defensible. That's, that's, that's right.

• 1:51:29Bill Simmons?

  With that said, I was pretty sure Castle was going to be the best guy in that draft.

• 1:51:36Speaker 02

  I mean, what would he be doing on Washington? How would that help him?

• 1:51:38Bill Simmons?

  He'd be one of your 19 guards.

• 1:51:40Speaker 02

  Right. How would he get better? I want to know if you've been in the trade machine for Tyler Hero yet?

• 1:51:49Speaker 02

  You started that?

• 1:51:50Bill Simmons?

  For you?

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  No, for anybody.

• 1:51:54Speaker 02

  He came back and Miami has looked bad. And there's something, their, their, their offense is, is, has glitched. They don't play-

• 1:52:04Bill Simmons?

  The call is always to Sacramento. That's my first call from a GM. He thinks it's Vivek there?

• 1:52:12Bill Simmons?

  Hey, you ever seen Tyler Hero play?

• 1:52:14Speaker 02

  We've got a white guy that's a shooter.

• 1:52:16Bill Simmons?

  There was a story, I never know what to believe with these stories that end up on like on Hoops hype, all these other places, but um, there was Sabonis to the Bulls buzz somewhere. I don't know whether it was made up or what.

• 1:52:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:28Bill Simmons?

  But it was just so funny that Chicago and Sacramento making another trade. It's like the two teams that just don't know what to do. They just kind of, it's like these two people that keep hooking up when they, they know they're never going to date.

• 1:52:41Speaker 02

  Wait a minute.

• 1:52:43Bill Simmons?

  What do you mean wait a minute?

• 1:52:44Speaker 02

  I remember those days.

• 1:52:47Bill Simmons?

  You do? A million years ago?

• 1:52:49Speaker 02

  It was a long time ago, but I remember those days.

• 1:52:51Bill Simmons?

  Would you try to trade Sabonis, trade for Sabonis?

• 1:52:55Speaker 02

  That's an awesome question. As you were describing it, I, I think he could really help a couple of teams. Honestly, no joke. I think he could help Miami. I mean, um-

• 1:53:06Bill Simmons?

  Playing him with Bam?

• 1:53:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Cause Bam likes to get the ball at, at the free throw line. They run that offense with him at, at the top.

• 1:53:17Bill Simmons?

  I thought uh

• 1:53:18Speaker 02

  They could high low.

• 1:53:20Bill Simmons?

  The most interesting one to me would be a Clippers move.

• 1:53:24Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 1:53:24Bill Simmons?

  Zubats in it and like a Zubats Harden, you do that whole thing and and Sabonis becomes basically the Harden replacement as like a focal point of the offense. That's just like, we're neither of us are going anywhere. What do you, what do you think? One of those trades? The wild card team for Sabonis would be Golden State, which would not help their defense.

• 1:53:46Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:53:48Bill Simmons?

  But would be so interested to watch him in a system like that. I do feel like there's a team for him that could unlock a lot of the stuff that I like when I watch him.

• 1:53:58Speaker 02

  What about the Raptors? The thing that, you know, they they get, they've hurt as usual. Bunch of guys missing games.

• 1:54:07Bill Simmons?

  I noticed that it's the fans have gotten quiet.

• 1:54:11Speaker 02

  Well, they're they're injured. I mean, RJ Barrett and quickly.

• 1:54:14Bill Simmons?

  Fans were loud, fans were loud. There was loud noises from Canada and it's now eerily silent.

• 1:54:21Speaker 02

  Well, because the guys are hurt. What do you want?

• 1:54:24Bill Simmons?

  Still have Ingram. They still have Scotty Barnes.

• 1:54:28Speaker 02

  I mean, you know.

• 1:54:29Bill Simmons?

  It's not like they were in a bus crash. They missed a couple of guys. Everybody has injuries.

• 1:54:35Speaker 02

  Those guys are pretty good.

• 1:54:36Bill Simmons?

  I'll say this, I have a couple, even though I just did a long NBA podcast with Mahoney.

• 1:54:43Bill Simmons?

  The one thing I thought about watching that Tuesday Raptors Knicks game.

• 1:54:51Bill Simmons?

  When they have their five.

• 1:54:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:53Bill Simmons?

  That's the safest bet in the East. Right?

• 1:54:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:54:56Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if they're gonna have their five in April or May.

• 1:54:59Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:54:59Bill Simmons?

  But if I just, if my life depended on it.

• 1:55:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:55:04Bill Simmons?

  So the FanDuel agrees because they're plus 270.

• 1:55:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:07Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what's going on with the Cavs. But um you know, I don't think they could beat any of the top three teams, which Mahoney and I discussed from the West. But I do think they are, they're clearly the class of the East now because of whatever the hell happened in the Cavaliers.

• 1:55:23Speaker 02

  Yep. Cavs have a deal or two yet to make. They have to do something.

• 1:55:30Bill Simmons?

  My team's down to 7-1 for the East.

• 1:55:35Speaker 02

  This is part of the thesis for why did we all go over for Boston or two, at least two of the three of us went over?

• 1:55:41Bill Simmons?

  We did. We had the right instincts with Boston and Indiana about the infrastructure and the guys who've been there, but Indiana just got immediately hurt.

• 1:55:49Speaker 02

  Well, Matt got hurt immediately and that was there.

• 1:55:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, McConnell got hurt right before the season.

• 1:55:53Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 1:55:54Bill Simmons?

  Obi Toppin got hurt.

• 1:55:55Speaker 02

  That's a losing ticket.

• 1:55:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that was too bad.

• 1:55:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it feels, starting to feel a little nixie coming out of the East and my, one of my questions, and this has been a big topic all week is, does anybody say fuck it and try to chase? When OKC is looming at the end with a giant pickaxe? The other team I would have is Orlando. And this cup game of Knicks Orlando, I actually think is that would be what I would bet on to be the East Finals, right?

• 1:56:27Speaker 02

  I like.

• 1:56:27Bill Simmons?

  If you have any two matchups, I think that's the pick.

• 1:56:31Speaker 02

  Orlando's played the Knicks tough too. They went into Mathen Square Garden and beat their ass. Like just out toughed them. Bane's pretty good in terms of.

• 1:56:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Bane has, Bane has quieted the skeptics of all those picks that they gave up.

• 1:56:45Speaker 02

  He delivered an attitude and then Orlando didn't know.

• 1:56:48Bill Simmons?

  A little Dillon Brooks edge.

• 1:56:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the problem is this team can't play 10 games in a row without somebody getting hurt.

• 1:56:56Speaker 02

  It's outrageous.

• 1:56:57Bill Simmons?

  Dating back to last year.

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  It's outrageous.

• 1:57:00Bill Simmons?

  Did you hear, Mahoney and I talked about this because it was Zach's idea about just a hypothetical Palo for Yanis trade? Who would say no faster was I thought a really fun topic.

• 1:57:13Speaker 02

  Hmm. Who else does Milwaukee get in addition to Palo?

• 1:57:18Bill Simmons?

  That's it. It's a one for one.

• 1:57:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know.

• 1:57:23Bill Simmons?

  Do you want the brothers? I'll throw in the brothers.

• 1:57:25Speaker 02

  It's not terrible.

• 1:57:27Speaker 02

  It's actually, you know,

• 1:57:28Bill Simmons?

  Do you want Finaces and Alex?

• 1:57:30Speaker 02

  They

• 1:57:31Bill Simmons?

  That's three for one?

• 1:57:32Speaker 02

  It's a package deal. There'd be no doubt.

• 1:57:35Bill Simmons?

  Thought it was a fun hypothetical.

• 1:57:36Speaker 02

  It's interesting. I don't hate it.

• 1:57:39Bill Simmons?

  The one team out of all the ones with the assets, the one team that could chase if they really wanted to is Atlanta. They have a whole bunch of stuff they could do.

• 1:57:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:47Bill Simmons?

  Um, can we talk about Derek Queen really quick before we go?

• 1:57:50Speaker 02

  I'd love to.

• 1:57:50Bill Simmons?

  He's a DMV guy.

• 1:57:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:52Bill Simmons?

  You've known him since forever.

• 1:57:53Speaker 02

  Baltimore High School area and then played the University of Maryland.

• 1:57:57Bill Simmons?

  Our boy junior, who's uh, one of the hottest AU coaches in the, in the country. What's his high school now?

• 1:58:03Speaker 02

  No, he coaches a high school. He coaches Paul the sixth, which is nationally ranked every single year.

• 1:58:08Bill Simmons?

  But I thought he also did like a club team too, though, doesn't he?

• 1:58:11Speaker 02

  Nah, he doesn't really do that.

• 1:58:12Bill Simmons?

  Oh, he doesn't do that? Alright, my bad, Junior.

• 1:58:13Speaker 02

  Paul the sixth is a, is a, is a full-time job.

• 1:58:16Bill Simmons?

  Right. So he, Queen, he's known forever.

• 1:58:20Speaker 02

  He has.

• 1:58:22Speaker 02

  He was on that team with Cooper Flag and.

• 1:58:26Bill Simmons?

  He was a voice crying in the wilderness during the Queen trade, like, hey, by the way, Queen's really good. I know they shouldn't have put protections on that pick. Or they should have put protections on that pick. But uh, but yeah, have you seen Queen though?

• 1:58:39Speaker 02

  Of course. Yes. I mean, rooting, rooting for that kid. The only thing that was like a, a kind of question mark, there was a, you know, a, a sort of sentiment that he needed to grow up a tiny bit. But it's, he, he's showing a level of professionalism.

• 1:58:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:58Speaker 02

  In a situation where you really have to work hard.

• 1:59:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they have so many guys that I like. I think Murphy's a pro too. They have, they're pros in that team. Let's see what happens.

• 1:59:08Speaker 02

  I think it's gotta move that team.

• 1:59:10Bill Simmons?

  Before we go, we gotta talk about uh, Bob Chesney going to UCLA.

• 1:59:15Speaker 02

  Your guy.

• 1:59:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, he, I wasn't ever gonna say anything, but he kinda talked about it in a, in a radio show or something he did about how, about how I started the whole process.

• 1:59:27Speaker 02

  Wow. Gave you credit.

• 1:59:29Bill Simmons?

  So now I have to tell the story. He did.

• 1:59:33Bill Simmons?

  This was, they fired whoever the coach was mid-September. And my friend Casey, who's one of the people, the UCLA boosters in charge of trying to figure out who the next coach should be. And he asked me, he's like, any idea what we should do? And.

• 1:59:52Bill Simmons?

  Sent me some names and I was like, how do you not get the James Madison coach?

• 1:59:58Bill Simmons?

  So I started bombarding him with stuff from when he coached our beloved Holy Cross and how he completely transformed college football for us.

• 2:00:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:00:06Bill Simmons?

  And as I'm doing, this is like mid September, as I'm doing that, James Madison just keeps winning and winning and winning.

• 2:00:12Speaker 02

  True story.

• 2:00:13Bill Simmons?

  And then I looked like a prophet.

• 2:00:15Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 2:00:16Bill Simmons?

  Maybe they would have found him out anyway, but as, as they're looking at this, James Madison's going up and at some point it got serious, but yeah.

• 2:00:24Speaker 02

  Well, James Madison's now in the playoff.

• 2:00:27Bill Simmons?

  James Madison's now a 12 seed in the playoffs. Our guy, Bob Chesney, who took Holy Cross to the semifinals.

• 2:00:34Speaker 02

  He did that. Yeah, for sure. Deshaun Foster, that's, that's who UCLA fired.

• 2:00:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:40Speaker 02

  My single favorite thing so far from Chesney, in addition to him giving you credit, that's amazing, is he's already saying like, uh, hey USC, uh, you've got a little, you're a little comfortable. I know that you think that you own college football in this town. Just get ready. I love that.

• 2:01:00Bill Simmons?

  I'm really excited because obviously I don't have a college football team other than Holy Cross.

• 2:01:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:01:06Bill Simmons?

  Punted on college football, except for when we had Bob Chesney. So I feel like legally I'm allowed to really adopt UCLA now and I'm all in.

• 2:01:15Speaker 02

  It's where you live and it's your guy.

• 2:01:17Bill Simmons?

  I've kind of wanted an LA team. We'd like, we test drove the, the, when we got the King season tickets, my kids got into that, but I was still, I couldn't not root for a Boston team. That got weird. I feel like this is pretty clean.

• 2:01:29Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 2:01:30Bill Simmons?

  Right?

• 2:01:30Speaker 02

  Neither one of us, I root for Maryland because I grew up.

• 2:01:33Bill Simmons?

  You were for Maryland basketball, but yeah, the football.

• 2:01:36Speaker 02

  Campus and the football's been good, you know, like four or five times over the.

• 2:01:40Bill Simmons?

  No, man, I might, I might just be, I might just throw myself into the UCLA thing now.

• 2:01:46Speaker 02

  Go for it.

• 2:01:47Bill Simmons?

  I really want this to work.

• 2:01:48Speaker 02

  Who's gonna stop you?

• 2:01:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's giving me partial credit. Man, but anyway, Bob Chesney, UCLA.

• 2:01:56Speaker 02

  Congrats.

• 2:01:57Bill Simmons?

  And, uh, and we'll see how it goes because they've tried to hire all these different coaches and they've done the Chip Kelly route. They did the, we, oh, here's an alumni who used to play for us. Now it's like, hey, maybe we should just get an awesome coach who's, who wins all the games that he coaches.

• 2:02:12Speaker 02

  An innovative coach. Like just, just look at a couple of times, some of the offense that he, the schemes that he puts in place.

• 2:02:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And builds a culture around players. So anyway, I'm all in.

• 2:02:22Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 2:02:22Bill Simmons?

  UCLA, welcome me aboard. House, you want in? Are you gonna move for him too?

• 2:02:26Speaker 02

  Maybe, maybe. We had to talk to Lewis. Doesn't Lewis root for UCLA?

• 2:02:30Bill Simmons?

  Lewis is all in. I was telling Lewis in mid-September that this was in, this was, I was like, hey, you gotta watch, watch what's happening with James Madison because that might be your next coach.

• 2:02:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:42Speaker 02

  I bet he sent you a bunch of eggplant emojis.

• 2:02:44Bill Simmons?

  Honestly, Lewis is so far up Will Arnett's ass this whole holiday season. Just doing PR for Arnett and then Poller and I, and he's got Jimmy and I, I'm like a blip on his windshield. I'm like a bug that hits his windshield sometimes.

• 2:03:00Speaker 02

  In view of what you just gave him, how much you improved his life. I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of immeasurable. When you have a great football team that you root for.

• 2:03:10Bill Simmons?

  He's, he's like, I think he's 48, so he's the right age.

• 2:03:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:03:14Bill Simmons?

  Like they're gonna get, it's like when the Pats just got Vrabel. He's like the right age, right time, perfect fit. And, uh, I'm really excited. So for the UCLA fans, like this is not a joke. Like Chesney like changed.

• 2:03:27Bill Simmons?

  Uh, we, we had given up on football. We didn't care at all and never thought Holy Cross was gonna care. And he just went in and single-handedly transformed it.

• 2:03:35Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:03:35Bill Simmons?

  And it was unbelievable. We went to the, that semifinals, who do we play? Like South Dakota State or somebody?

• 2:03:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:03:41Bill Simmons?

  And all the guys on that team were 300 pound offensive lineman. It was like a fucking pro team.

• 2:03:46Speaker 02

  And we, we competed for, for half.

• 2:03:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we were hanging around.

• 2:03:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:51Bill Simmons?

  So anyway, congratulations, coach.

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  Great job, coach.

• 2:03:54Bill Simmons?

  House, I hope you feel better. I hope, I hope you don't get fired if our picks suck. And.

• 2:04:00Speaker 02

  You're the boss. Whatever you want to do, I'll be fine.

• 2:04:03Bill Simmons?

  Good to see you as always. Bye, House.

• 2:04:04Speaker 02

  See you.

• 2:04:05Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Don't forget to listen to the rewatchables with Shampoo High Fidelity coming on Monday. You have four days to watch that. Don't forget about the new Max and Rich podcast we launched, Game Over. They will have another one coming on Friday. I'm really happy we launched that one. I'm glad it's doing well as well. And don't forget about Music Box. Whizkid, it is up. Go check it out. That's it. Go Patriots. Please, for the love of God, let's beat the Bills.

• 2:04:46Bill Simmons?

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• 2:05:27Bill Simmons?

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• 2:06:12Bill Simmons?

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