Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti. Georgia covered the Durham Family Murders and Karen told the amazing survival story of Terry Jo Duperrault. Listen for all-new commentary, possible case updates and much more!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Georgia Hardstark?

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way.

• 0:09Karen Kilgariff?

  When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, that's when the rubber hits the road.

• 0:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it.

• 0:23Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences.

• 0:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now.

• 0:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Goodbye.

• 0:41Karen Kilgariff?

  This holiday season, celebrate the ones you know by heart with a gift that says it all.

• 0:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Because the best gifts don't just look beautiful, they mean something, too.

• 0:49Karen Kilgariff?

  From engraveable pieces that tell your story, to festive charms that capture special memories, to stunning lab-grown diamonds, Pandora has meaningful jewelry for the people who inspire you and have been there through it all.

• 1:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Give a piece that says exactly what words can't.

• 1:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Pandora, more than a gift.

• 1:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Shop new styles in-store or online at pandora.net.

• 1:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen in Georgia.

• 1:29Karen Kilgariff?

  This is our new Wednesday episode, where we recap our old shows with new commentary, updates, and insights. You are welcome.

• 1:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so today, we're recapping episode 28, which we named "I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and a Nice Cake."

• 1:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 1:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That has stood the test of time.

• 1:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I agree. I love that one. So join us as we take you back to August 4, 2016, because now we can all be day one listeners.

• 1:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Huzzah. Let's listen to the intro of episode 28.

• 2:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen, hi.

• 2:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi.

• 2:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi.

• 2:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi.

• 2:06Georgia Hardstark?

  You pointed at me to talk first tonight.

• 2:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I wanted you to do the, I did it last time, trying to make a start.

• 2:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, hey, this, oh, fuck, I gotta turn my phone off.

• 2:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry. Oh, hey, this is, hello? Who's this? Show business? It's a telemarketer. Do you mind if I take this? Can I do?

• 2:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I talk about some products with this person?

• 2:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I give them all my, my social security number and everything over the podcast.

• 2:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Just record it all.

• 2:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, welcome to My Favorite Murder. This is basically what the podcast is.

• 2:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it's going to be this, um, for another two and three quarters hours.

• 2:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 2:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Enjoy.

• 2:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, there you go.

• 2:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Or goodbye.

• 2:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Forever. Can I start out real quick, just by plugging, just for the skippers who skip to the stories?

• 2:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 2:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't miss this.

• 2:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't miss this.

• 2:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We have new motherfucking shirts.

• 2:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, and they're good.

• 2:55Georgia Hardstark?

  They're good, right?

• 2:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm, I'm really, yeah. There's something, well, to me, there, when you sent me that picture, there's something very visceral about the original logo as a shirt.

• 3:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, it makes me feel official.

• 3:08Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so official, and I can't wait to see someone, I'm still waiting to run into someone in the wild, like, someone I don't know, wearing one of our old shirts.

• 3:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that just happened to me.

• 3:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 3:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Walking into your apartment, and Stephen has our shirt on.

• 3:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  I was dressed appropriately.

• 3:22Georgia Hardstark?

  He was, we appreciate it. We don't let anyone in our house unless they're wearing mine or Vince's podcast shirt.

• 3:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's smart.

• 3:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 3:29Karen Kilgariff?

  As a couple, that's a good decision.

• 3:30Georgia Hardstark?

  We're real dicks.

• 3:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Is it obnoxious to wear your own podcast sweatshirt?

• 3:35Georgia Hardstark?

  T-shirt, yes. Hoodie, no.

• 3:37Karen Kilgariff?

  No?

• 3:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like when you get it, when you're working on a movie and you get

• 3:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 3:40Georgia Hardstark?

  the show, the movie logo hat.

• 3:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 3:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And once it wraps, you can wear it.

• 3:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Should we also get director's chairs? Do you think?

• 3:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 3:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Should we, should we get baseball jacket?

• 3:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Baseball jackets, directors, you can get, I was looking to, like, try to get mugs and stuff. You can get, like, we can get, like, serving trays with the logo on it.

• 4:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, good.

• 4:01Georgia Hardstark?

  You can get so much weird shit.

• 4:04Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, Dave Anthony from The Dollop says that the thing they sell the most are posters.

• 4:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Posters.

• 4:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I would do that.

• 4:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Posters, and we can do shot glasses, too, which I feel like. I mean, there's gotta be a lot of college kids listening, right?

• 4:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I would hope. What are they doing with their time?

• 4:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, studying?

• 4:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Please.

• 4:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Look at us. We didn't go to college. I mean, we didn't graduate. And look at us now.

• 4:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I tried, but it sucked.

• 4:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I gave it a shot.

• 4:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It was weird and uncomfortable.

• 4:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I hated it.

• 4:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I really didn't like it.

• 4:30Georgia Hardstark?

  It was triggering for me because I hated high school so much.

• 4:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That it just felt like high school.

• 4:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Mine felt like the opposite of high school because I went to a tiny high school and then I tried to go to Sac State, which was like going to

• 4:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my gosh, huge.

• 4:44Karen Kilgariff?

  A whole other city

• 4:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 4:45Karen Kilgariff?

  as a school. And I just felt lost and empty and alone.

• 4:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, community college felt like, um, oh, God, it felt like I was going backwards in time because my school was kind of nice. And then suddenly it was like, like this terrible, like, old school that was sad.

• 5:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Did it have those desks where the chair and the desk are connected?

• 5:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm hmm.

• 5:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't. There's something so depressing about those desks.

• 5:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Because you can't move in or out and your butt hurts and it's just, no.

• 5:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's like you're, it's like a little clamp on you.

• 5:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:18Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a school clamp.

• 5:19Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a little prison cell.

• 5:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Um.

• 5:21Georgia Hardstark?

  So look at us now.

• 5:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, look at us, free, sticking our legs wherever we want.

• 5:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 5:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Sideways.

• 5:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Anywhere.

• 5:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh.

• 5:29Georgia Hardstark?

  In our director's chairs.

• 5:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Quit school, everybody. That's the one message we have for the children this week. Please quit school. Did you know Burke Ramsey is going to be on Dr. Phil in September?

• 5:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, and I've been waiting to freak out.

• 5:43Karen Kilgariff?

  With me?

• 5:43Georgia Hardstark?

  For you, yeah. Because I've been seeing that. I'm like, whatever, whatever. Even Vince was like, did you see that? And I'm like, yeah, whatever. But I've been waiting to talk to you about it.

• 5:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I love that the day it was announced, I think, I must have had six or seven people tweet at me and the, and our, the My Favorite Murder Twitter, we had like 25 people.

• 6:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Instagram too, like people, we have an Instagram account and people will be like commenting on a shirt post, like, did you see this? So here's what I think is gonna happen. One of two things. Either it's gonna be the most boring, basic thing he thinks an intruder did it, or he's totally gonna just go ballistic and say it was his mom. I guess, I'm guessing it's not the latter, but how cool would that be?

• 6:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It'd be amazing. I did see one picture in one of the articles that got sent, and they're walking in an orchard.

• 6:30Georgia Hardstark?

  The walk and talk?

• 6:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Probably a bad sign.

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause that means they're two besties.

• 6:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No, they always do the walk and talk, though.

• 6:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah?

• 6:37Georgia Hardstark?

  The walk and talk, whenever there's like an interview, that's just a thing.

• 6:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 6:42Georgia Hardstark?

  A walk and talk.

• 6:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 6:43Georgia Hardstark?

  But you think an orchard is a bad sign.

• 6:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it just looked too peaceful and chummy to me.

• 6:48Georgia Hardstark?

  You're not gonna be like, and then she hit her over the head in an orch- you're not gonna say that in an orchard.

• 6:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I don't, who knows? But here's what I will say, and I'm not gonna name any names. I've got an inside source. Um, I'm gonna find out from my inside source if it's already been taped, if it's a taping live in a studio.

• 7:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 7:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Like if, if the clips we've already seen are just a pre-tape that they're, that they're letting out footage of or whatever. Because what if we went to the live taping of that?

• 7:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, stop it. Oh, my God. I didn't even think that's what you meant. Wait, what?

• 7:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Would you wanna do that? I'm gonna find out from my inside source.

• 7:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't even know that's what you meant. I thought you were gonna like, find out what he was saying, but that's, I would go.

• 7:29Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no. Don't you wanna be there?

• 7:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes!

• 7:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Because here's the thing I do trust in Dr. Phil.

• 7:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Is, I just got the picture in my head. Did you ever see the Dr. Phil that was on the Muppet, Sesame Street, where they did a Dr. Phil, and the Muppet looked exactly like him?

• 7:48Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I love it.

• 7:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That, that just flashed in my head and I kinda went away for a second, sorry. Um, I do trust that Dr. Phil doesn't give a fuck, so he will like, confront like, a lunatic.

• 8:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, it's not like, I'm going back on what I just said about the chummy-ness. Because now that I think about it, Dr. Phil will just all be like, why, why do you still live with your boyfriend who's a pedophile or what? You know what I mean? He doesn't care.

• 8:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Burke Ramsey lives with a boyfriend who's-

• 8:17Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no.

• 8:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, so yeah, he definitely asks the hard questions and kind of fucking needles them until they like- They get nervous and then the real shit comes out. So I think he's better than like a Barbara Walters because she's super soft.

• 8:32Karen Kilgariff?

  For sure.

• 8:32Georgia Hardstark?

  On people. Um, I agree. I can't wait. I'm totally gonna watch it, but I'm like everything in life, keeping my expectations low.

• 8:41Karen Kilgariff?

  If we somehow get tickets to be in the studio audience.

• 8:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I will lose.

• 8:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Should we wear matching outfits? Should we? And should they be our T-shirts?

• 8:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Yes. A thousand times. Yes. Please.

• 9:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Should we dress like super weird, not twin sisters?

• 9:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And freak people out.

• 9:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Get our hair cut.

• 9:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 9:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything.

• 9:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Should I get a tiny bob? That was my 90s hair forever.

• 9:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to say we should dress like pageant girls, but that seems in bad taste to say right now.

• 9:18Karen Kilgariff?

  It does seem like that.

• 9:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So I'm not saying it.

• 9:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking huge, the huge tiara trophy.

• 9:28Georgia Hardstark?

  They would kick us out. We would get arrested for bad taste.

• 9:32Karen Kilgariff?

  We do like, that's like an intense drag queen move is to like dress up as JonBenet.

• 9:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 9:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Then here's part two, which a lot of people know, because a lot of people also tweeted us this information.

• 9:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 9:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that, um, Ingmar Guadnik, who was the guy that was accused of murdering Chandra Lee.

• 9:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 9:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Is gonna get released from prison after six years because the prosecutors are dropping all charges because based on recent unforeseen developments that were investigated over the past week. What?

• 10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I am, I'm never speechless, but I'm speechless about this. That's insane.

• 10:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Because the, whatever they found.

• 10:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Whatever this investigation is, the idea that it got to the point where it gets him out of jail entirely.

• 10:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 10:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Has to be something incredibly definitive.

• 10:26Georgia Hardstark?

  But didn't he also kill two, isn't he suspected of or did kill?

• 10:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, yeah. Rock and roll.

• 10:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Didn't, isn't he suspected of or killed two other people?

• 10:37Karen Kilgariff?

  He did. Now, look, I'm not celebrating his release because he did attack women in that park. That's the reason he was arrested. But he attacked women with the intent, I believe, to rape them if he did, if not raping them. But.

• 10:53Karen Kilgariff?

  There, I think, so basically, he was the perfect person to arrest for her murder.

• 10:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just that moral dilemma of like, is setting him free just going to fuck up the world even more? I mean, he's, I know you can't hold someone for something they weren't charged for, but I hate it. And I want to know what the, I want to know what the evidence is so I can know if I agree or not, but they're not telling us.

• 11:19Karen Kilgariff?

  You're right. It's not exciting he's getting out of jail because obviously he can't handle himself around women, parks, or screwdrivers.

• 11:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Sexual predator.

• 11:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he's no good. And I'm sure jail helped him with that.

• 11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, as it tends to do.

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  But what I, I'm just stoked that they found some, they were still looking.

• 11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And they found something so definitive. That means we're going to find out about it within the next month.

• 11:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It can't just be a witness because it's been, what, 10 years and witness, eyewitness testimony sucks. It can't be.

• 11:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Witnesses don't get people out of jail, I don't think.

• 11:52Georgia Hardstark?

  It can't just, also, it can't just be DNA because finding a hair on the body doesn't mean anything, you know? Unless it's, can be linked.

• 12:00Karen Kilgariff?

  What did they find?

• 12:01Georgia Hardstark?

  What did they find?

• 12:02Karen Kilgariff?

  What did they find?

• 12:03Georgia Hardstark?

  What, because she, wasn't she, isn't, wasn't she skeletal remains when they found her?

• 12:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't remember. People talk to me about these cases that we talk about on here and I have almost no memory of talking about them.

• 12:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 12:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I have to re-listen to episodes.

• 12:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm like, I should do this murder. And then like, did I really do this?

• 12:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I've thought about so many times.

• 12:22Georgia Hardstark?

  There was one that I wanted to ask you if I've done because I totally forgot.

• 12:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And they mean the world to us, listeners.

• 12:30Georgia Hardstark?

  They're the most important things.

• 12:32Karen Kilgariff?

  We love it.

• 12:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I forget my own name.

• 12:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I almost did one of yours.

• 12:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I was looking up today and I was like, I can't find.

• 12:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Which one?

• 12:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It was a re- maybe your fir- no, not your first, because your first was Martha Mosley, right?

• 12:49Georgia Hardstark?

  No, my first was JonBenet.

• 12:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay. It was an early one that was a little more obscure. And right, I saw it and I went, that's so good. And I'm like, the reason you think that is because George already did it.

• 12:59Georgia Hardstark?

  What if you just did it and then did it better?

• 13:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And then said, up your game, girl.

• 13:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:05Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 13:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Get it together.

• 13:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a contest within a podcast.

• 13:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I started listening, like, I want to say just for research purposes and just for like quality control, but started, I listened to episode one from the beginning. But it's really just because I'm fucking full of myself and wanted to hear how funny we are. And I was laughing out, I was here, this is like, describes me in a nutshell. I was shopping for vintage clothing, listening to my own podcast and laughing out loud.

• 13:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you think you were laughing really loud and didn't know it because you had earbuds in?

• 13:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I was, no, because I'm really aware of that, but I was act- I was laughing out loud accidentally, like, I couldn't help but, what is, oh, God, I'm such a dick, but it's.

• 13:45Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I think it's very brave of you to admit this. I, I re-listen to episodes a lot because it's a really, it's fun to do, it's, I don't know, it's fun to do.

• 13:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It is.

• 13:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It is.

• 13:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's like, oh, shit. I think you and I text each other on a regular basis. Oh, that's good.

• 14:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That was actually good.

• 14:02Georgia Hardstark?

  We're good at this.

• 14:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Sometimes we leave this apartment and I'm like, we shouldn't, we shouldn't do this anymore.

• 14:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait, what?

• 14:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, sorry, what?

• 14:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, that's not true. Um, any more housekeeping?

• 14:13Karen Kilgariff?

  That is it for me.

• 14:19Georgia Hardstark?

  It's funny that we're talking about JonBenet Ramsey again. Did you watch the recent documentary on Netflix?

• 14:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's timeless. I haven't because there's so many other, like, true crime documentaries out right now. I feel like my list has gotten insanely long.

• 14:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, this is The Cold Case: Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey? Of course, by Joe Burlinger, who's this, like, incredible documentary filmmaker.

• 14:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 14:42Georgia Hardstark?

  The thing that, I, it didn't give me any, like, new insights, except for, I really don't think the family was involved. I really do at this point, and I feel bad that I ever did. I think it was an intruder.

• 14:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel bad about all of it. Like, this is a story that is so, I was talking to somebody this morning where I was just like, the idea that there are so many risky people in this child's life.

• 15:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And the fact that there are so many potential people is so horrible.

• 15:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Just so horrible. And the, you know, like, child pageants, we don't even have to get into it.

• 15:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:18Karen Kilgariff?

  God.

• 15:19Georgia Hardstark?

  But you're gonna feel bad for, especially Patsy Ramsey, when you watch this. It's like, it's fucked up. It's just so fucked up. And I do think that the Boulder police have a lot to fucking answer to, based on this documentary.

• 15:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And also, it's just very strange. It's like, a cold case. It feels like there should be a way to get in there and do something about how this cold case that just, everybody wants answers to.

• 15:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, there is, and it's DNA. And again, the Boulder Police Department has some shit to fucking answer for.

• 15:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Really?

• 15:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Now I have to move this one up to the top of my list, you're saying?

• 15:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I would. It's only three episodes.

• 15:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 15:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, it's good, and it's fucked up. Burke isn't in it because he has not publicly spoken since this interview with Dr. Phil, which you can totally understand why he wouldn't want to. But another one of John Ramsey's sons is in it.

• 16:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Looking back on this rewind, it's a really good, like, I think people, over the years, of being a true crime fan and a listener of it, I really, the thing that stands out the most to me is media literacy. And how it used to just be, we kind of accepted whole cloth, anything we were shown. Of like, well, then that's what it is. Well, then that's what it is.

• 16:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, it must be true if it's being printed, or it's being said by news people.

• 16:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's on a major network.

• 16:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And as people get smarter, which I do believe they are, and it's like, all the internet, you know, the things that advance our kind of awareness and literacy. It's just like, to believe that we know anything simply because one group of people put something together and tried to convince us for ratings.

• 16:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It is a thing that I'm glad is changing.

• 16:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you gotta check your sources, even if the source is like, you know, a major fucking news outlet, because like, where did they get that information from?

• 17:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And especially these days, like, who, you know, I don't know. Trust no man. Trust no sources.

• 17:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, exactly. And then we also talk about the Chandra Levy case, and the fact that her, which you covered before. In an earlier episode, and that her alleged killer has been released from jail based on new evidence. Oh, it was, you covered it in episode 16. So of MFM and Rewind. So listen to that if you want to.

• 17:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And this, and we also talked about listening to our own show. First of all, we called them old episodes and we're in episode 28. So we're just like, hey, did you like that idea of listening to what we were doing to get a sense of like, what are we doing?

• 17:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah. I feel fine about the fact that I listened to it. I haven't done it in a while. There were times where like every couple of weeks I would listen to the beginning just to be like fact check, like make sure that, are we, are we doing the right thing? You know? Or listen to my story. If it was a story that was really like one of them that I was nervous about getting right, I'd listen and just like reassure myself that it sounded not stupid.

• 18:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 18:10Georgia Hardstark?

  But more and more, I'm not able to listen to my own fucking voice anymore.

• 18:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no. Like when I walk by and there's like an engineer trying to edit what we just did, I'll like run away when I can hear my voice. It's for others. It's not for me. It's kind of like when we stopped looking at our own Facebook page where it's just like, oh, this isn't, we're not supposed to be on this end of the process. We're, we did the other part.

• 18:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Put the mirror away.

• 18:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 18:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Move on with your life.

• 18:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Do your best.

• 18:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Please, please move on with your life. Okay. So now we're going to get into Georgia's story. This is the Durham family murders.

• 18:51Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 18:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 19:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 19:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different. Or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 19:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 19:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 19:54Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 19:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Nothing makes you take a good, hard look at your furniture like inviting people over for the holidays.

• 20:03Georgia Hardstark?

  So give your home a little holiday upgrade with Article.

• 20:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long-lasting home at an unbeatable price.

• 20:11Georgia Hardstark?

  They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time. There's no filler. Every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design, and lasting value.

• 20:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.

• 20:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week. I know we're getting into fall and winter, but we live in Los Angeles, so my outdoor furniture is just like the perfect focal point for the pool parties we still end up having. Sorry, everyone, when it's like sunny and gorgeous year round. I sit on my Article patio furniture every morning and have my coffee and watch Cookie lay in the sun. And the whole thing is just so peaceful and pretty. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 20:58Karen Kilgariff?

  To claim, visit article.com/murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

• 21:03Georgia Hardstark?

  That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 21:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 21:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Holiday shopping gets a lot easier when you can find something for everyone.

• 21:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially when everyone includes yourself.

• 21:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Find thoughtful, high-quality gifts for everyone on your list at Quince.

• 21:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Quince makes beautiful, everyday essentials with high-quality materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. They're the kind of things you love to give as a gift or get yourself.

• 21:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $50 and they also have beautiful 14-karat gold earrings and bracelets that make Great gifts.

• 21:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I was so excited when I got home and I got to break out my gray Quince cashmere sweater that I wear constantly around the house. We've been waiting for even the slightest temperature drop so that we could get into sweater weather and finally it's here and I celebrated with my beautiful Quince cashmere sweater that I think I got the second year we started doing ads for them.

• 22:02Georgia Hardstark?

  They laugh.

• 22:03Karen Kilgariff?

  They do.

• 22:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season.

• 22:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

• 22:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

• 22:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Now available in Canada and the UK too.

• 22:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was My Favorite Murder. It's the best way to support the show.

• 22:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 22:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you first this week?

• 22:27Georgia Hardstark?

  You first, am I first?

• 22:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you first?

• 22:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I think, yeah, you did, um, what's your face last week and I think you went first? I also don't care who goes first.

• 22:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Honestly, at this moment, I have absolutely no idea what happened last week.

• 22:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. You did, um, little baby Karen, didn't you?

• 22:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Mary Bell?

• 22:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Is that last week?

• 22:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know. I honestly don't know. No. Last week was hometown murder.

• 22:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck. What is wrong with us? Is there a gas leak in my apartment?

• 22:57Karen Kilgariff?

  We can't be that stuck up if we can't remember exactly what we did.

• 23:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It's us being stuck up. I think it's, we have terrible memories.

• 23:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 23:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I think there's a gas leak in my apartment.

• 23:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Probably. I definitely have a terrible memory.

• 23:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Who did you? So do you want me to go first? You want to go first?

• 23:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, you go first.

• 23:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. I'm excited about this one because it's fucked up and I also really like finding ones that you don't know and I didn't know, I found one that I didn't know purposely.

• 23:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Where'd you find it? Reddit?

• 23:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, I might've found like a link on the Facebook page as you do and then just went crazy and said, okay.

• 23:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Has someone posted a link that has all these Reddit links on it?

• 23:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 23:32Karen Kilgariff?

  There is a post with a bunch of Reddit links that I was looking through today and loved it. It was so great.

• 23:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I did what I always do and I go into the hometown, I go into our email and look up and like type to find if anyone has ever emailed us about it, just so I can add that information in and no one has ever emailed us about this.

• 23:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's smart.

• 23:46Georgia Hardstark?

  So who knows where I found it? Okay, this is the Durham family murders.

• 23:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Durham family.

• 23:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Durham.

• 23:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 23:54Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, I'm gonna start with the murders. So on February 3rd, 1972, it's a stormy snowy night in Boone, North Carolina. And the bodies of Bryce Durham, 51, his wife Virginia, 44, and their son Bobby Joe, who was 18, were found crowded side by side leaning across and into a filled bathtub with their heads under the water submerged. There's a fucking photo.

• 24:21Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 24:23Georgia Hardstark?

  The autopsy established that, though rope burns were evident on the necks of all three of the family members, the father and son were alive when their heads were forced underwater.

• 24:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, this really just kicked it off, didn't it?

• 24:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know why I started with the fuck that part, but here we go.

• 24:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, no, no, it's, I mean, look, you gotta hook them in.

• 24:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Because the rest of the story, I find, I find amazing, and you'll see why.

• 24:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So Virginia had been strangled to death before being plunged headfirst into the tub, but for some reason, they still put her in there, or whoever it was. The bodies of Bryce and Virginia also exhibited blunt force trauma. Bryce had a skull fracture and Virginia's nose had been bloodied before her death. And none of the corpses bore defensive wounds.

• 25:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 25:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So then I wrote, "Who done it?"

• 25:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, Angela, it's very...

• 25:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Just typing away in your typewriter.

• 25:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Who done it?

• 25:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Who could it be?

• 25:20Georgia Hardstark?

  So Bryce, the father, owned a local successful car dealership, and Bobby Joe was a college student nearby. The Durums, all three of them, came home together from the car dealership. And it was a crazy stormy night. It was super snowy. It was like getting worse and worse. And a neighbor noted, saw that they came home around 9:00 PM. So cut to 10:00 PM, I wrote.

• 25:46Georgia Hardstark?

  In case I forget.

• 25:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 25:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Allegedly, the son, okay, so there's another kid, there's a daughter Ginny Durham Hall. She was 19 and she lived with her husband Troy Hall a little ways away in a trailer. So allegedly, the son-in-law Troy arrived home at the trailer where he met Ginny. And he claimed he spent the entire day at the library from like 5pm till he got home. He says he came home to watch the Winter Olympics and they turned the TV on at 10 o'clock. And then the TV was on the fritz. So they put on music instead, they say. Then around 10:15, he answers a call at the, their home.

• 26:29Georgia Hardstark?

  He says that the call was from Virginia, his mother-in-law. And that she was whispering that three men were assaulting the family. And then the line abruptly went dead.

• 26:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:47Georgia Hardstark?

  He claimed he tried to call back the home, but it was busy, but it is busy. So he asked his wife, would your mom play a trick on us? And they kind of thought it was a prank, which is a real fucking funny prank. So worried, they decided to check in on the family. Didn't call the cops. Their car wouldn't start, even though he had only been in it like 15 to 20 minutes before. And they asked the neighbor Cecil Smart to drive them. Cecil Small is what I meant.

• 27:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Cecil Small.

• 27:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Small, who's now deceased, was a private investigator.

• 27:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 27:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And he drove the couple out to the house. Side note, Cecil was also supposedly at the scene of the Kennedy assassination.

• 27:28Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 27:29Georgia Hardstark?

  According to him, he was passing by the end of the motorcade. And he saw Hispanic man in the crowd with a poorly concealed scoped rifle.

• 27:40Georgia Hardstark?

  He was driven off course by the motorcade and came to an unfamiliar area. So he pulled over in front of the school book depository.

• 27:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh.

• 27:50Georgia Hardstark?

  To ask for directions. And a passerby was heading in the very same direction that he intended to travel.

• 27:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Huh.

• 27:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And thus offered the calm neatly dressed stranger a ride. And this man Cecil avowed to his dying day was Lee Harvey Oswald.

• 28:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Cecil's a liar.

• 28:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Cecil's.

• 28:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So you're telling me Cecil. Small. That you not only saw the shooter of President Kennedy. The a different person, but then you also met Lee Harvey Oswald.

• 28:20Georgia Hardstark?

  But you can also prove that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't do it.

• 28:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Didn't do it.

• 28:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And now that I'm thinking about.

• 28:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And you're blaming a Hispanic man.

• 28:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, okay, I just put this together and I wasn't going to add this in because I think it's in poor taste, but Troy says that Virginia says that three.

• 28:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Black men.

• 28:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Black men.

• 28:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 28:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Were attacking her.

• 28:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I'm sorry, but there's a cert from like 1969. But be and before that's all anyone ever said.

• 28:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I think from the eighties.

• 28:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you're it's now.

• 28:54Georgia Hardstark?

  You blame it on.

• 28:55Karen Kilgariff?

  People do that all the time.

• 28:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So that I'm kind of putting those things together now. So they get to the home almost an hour after the panicked call. But they couldn't get up the hill to the home because of the snow. So they left Ginny in the car. And they said, stay here, we're going to run up there. And supposedly they thought three men were in the house. Maybe not anymore attacking and they left her in the car at the bottom of the hill. That makes no sense.

• 29:19Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 29:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 29:20Karen Kilgariff?

  No. Also, I don't like three men that that's rare that that's the actual situation.

• 29:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. But how would three people, two of whom were like able bodied men able to be overpowered without any defensive wounds? It couldn't have been one person unless. You know, some people just comply when there's a gun in their face.

• 29:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, a lot of people do.

• 29:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's the smart thing to do.

• 29:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. All right, so they get up the hill, they get to the house, they enter the home through a broken garage door, where they found the place ransacked and the water was still running in the tub that was full of the family.

• 29:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 29:58Georgia Hardstark?

  They got, they, they skedaddled, I said, which I spelled right, which is weird, and jumped into the car intending to drive off, still not having called the police. The car was stuck, so they made it to a neighbor's and they finally called the police. So, police suggested the ransacked house seemed like a staged robbery, which I'm wondering, like, you hear that all the time, are they, I want to know if they're ever wrong about that.

• 30:21Karen Kilgariff?

  That it really was ransacked in sincerity?

• 30:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like there can't be that much, that huge of a difference between a ransacked, because it's being burglarized.

• 30:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I think when people burglar, this is just me talking off the top of my head.

• 30:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I want to know your opinion.

• 30:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. First of all, I want to officially change my old opinion, too. I don't know why I said 1969 and below, when racism is such a humongous problem in this country.

• 30:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 30:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know. Um, but, I'll go ahead to, again, freely give my opinion. Um, when people burglarize a house, they're looking for valuables and they know where people hide valuables.

• 30:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Good burglars want to get in and get out. They don't want to wreck people's houses, they don't go through every single drawer, because they know that people hide, I mean, there have been studies about it, where it's like, people hide their stuff in a sock drawer, people hide their stuff in a freezer, people hide their safes behind pictures.

• 31:16Georgia Hardstark?

  So now, everyone knows where you hide your stuff.

• 31:18Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 31:19Georgia Hardstark?

  They come to your house.

• 31:20Karen Kilgariff?

  My safe is behind my picture. Um, but, so, cutting open a couch, or, you know, there's like, when, when things are overly ruined, I think, is when cops are like-

• 31:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Like furniture thrown.

• 31:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 31:34Georgia Hardstark?

  That doesn't need to be, because there, there's photos of the house that's ransacked, and it's like, there's a, there's an ottoman, like, thrown onto the couch.

• 31:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 31:42Georgia Hardstark?

  That there's no, there's no reason I've done that.

• 31:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, and also, you're just taking extra time as the burglar, that could be time where the cops could be on their way. Why would you stand around throwing shit?

• 31:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, here's the fucked up thing about this, that, that proves they're probably right, is that there was an envelope full of cash, sitting like, out on one of the dining room chairs, and in the photo of the crime scene, you can see it. They had brought it home because they couldn't make it to the bank, uh, after-

• 32:10Karen Kilgariff?

  So it was just sitting there?

• 32:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So it was just sitting there and wasn't taken.

• 32:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So there's no need to put the ottoman on the couch?

• 32:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it was a fake, I believe it was a fake ransacking, but I'm just wondering, you hear that all the time.

• 32:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I wish we could look at photos of, I wish like how the 911 call we wanted to do where like we listened to two that are real and one that isn't.

• 32:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That's one I'd be willing to do.

• 32:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's one that wouldn't give you nightmares.

• 32:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That, that one I would love to do because who, I mean, who really knows, but it would be to understand how detectives and investigators have a sense of things would be fascinating to me.

• 32:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Can any detectives out there, please send us some crime scene photos? And don't tell us.

• 32:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Just sneak them out of the, uh,

• 32:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Precinct.

• 32:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Evidence locker where the cocaine is, sneak them out, mail them to George's secret PO box.

• 33:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Add a little coke in there if you want.

• 33:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not a big deal.

• 33:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I won't be mad.

• 33:05Karen Kilgariff?

  People do it all the time.

• 33:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm kidding, don't do coke.

• 33:08Karen Kilgariff?

  We, we all think it's bad.

• 33:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so, okay.

• 33:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm speaking for Steven.

• 33:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven wants the coke.

• 33:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Steven hates coke.

• 33:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, so they say it seemed like a staged robbery, there was an envelope full of cash and nothing of, nothing much of value had been taken. And shortly after the car that the derms had at the house, which was from the car dealership, was found in an embankment and it seemed like it had been placed there rather than crashed. And in the back was like a pillowcase full of like some silver, you know, some fucking silver, nothing that.

• 33:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Like utensils?

• 33:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:44Georgia Hardstark?

  So.

• 33:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Something a rube robber might take.

• 33:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 33:48Karen Kilgariff?

  A fool.

• 33:48Georgia Hardstark?

  So, I mean, clearly my, clearly the son-in-law, okay, here's the fucking twist.

• 33:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 33:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Forty years later, it's still unsolved.

• 33:57Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 33:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Despite all that evidence that clearly points at the son-in-law.

• 34:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But what, do they have like motive that the son-in-law?

• 34:05Georgia Hardstark?

  The son-in-law has never been a suspect.

• 34:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 34:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And he's a lawyer now, so, all right.

• 34:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 34:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's what I think happened, I think, and Ginny was the sole inheritor, inherited quarter of a million dollars.

• 34:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh shit.

• 34:19Georgia Hardstark?

  In the seventies money.

• 34:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And.

• 34:22Karen Kilgariff?

  That's 25 million in today's dollars.

• 34:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow Karen, oh my god.

• 34:29Karen Kilgariff?

  If it's numbers, I'm definitely lying.

• 34:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I love those conversions when they're like, this is how much it is in today's money.

• 34:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. I just read one today that was like a hundred thousand in the seventies.

• 34:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah shit, now I don't remember what it was.

• 34:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I believed you. I believed you in the way that when I have to ask you about Roman numerals, that you could say anything to me and I would believe you.

• 34:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That I knew. That was, that I knew.

• 34:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so.

• 34:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll always tell you when I'm lying.

• 34:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I appreciate that.

• 34:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, okay, so I just think like he hired a hit, some hitman. If the phone call happened, it was the, the people at the scene saying it's done and Ginny didn't know about it. And so he said that phone call was actually this thing instead.

• 35:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 35:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Or the phone call never happened and she was in on it.

• 35:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you think the neighbor was in on it? That was Mr. Lucky at the assassination?

• 35:22Georgia Hardstark?

  It sounds, I don't know enough about him, but based on those two little details, it's the racist, the blaming someone else, which I don't know, it was the CIA that killed Kennedy, right?

• 35:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 35:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And yeah, his getting involved in it and being a private detective, which I feel like you know more about how to commit a crime well.

• 35:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 35:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Than otherwise.

• 35:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you see it all the time.

• 35:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, I'll say this, what's suspicious to me that just dawned on me. Why would that woman call her son-in-law instead of the cops?

• 35:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And.

• 35:58Karen Kilgariff?

  When there are three men in her house.

• 35:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a good point. And in addition to that, the family didn't like the son-in-law. They were trying to get her to, to leave him.

• 36:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause she was only nineteen years old.

• 36:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:10Georgia Hardstark?

  So they were trying, they were like against this marriage. Why would she call them? And there's so many instances in this whole crime that it's like, why weren't the cops called?

• 36:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, yeah.

• 36:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Starting with, with the mother, which probably never happened. So that's why the cops were never called.

• 36:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And then multiple times with the son-in-law and the daughter weren't called.

• 36:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 36:30Georgia Hardstark?

  So, yeah.

• 36:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Crazy.

• 36:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And then da, da, da, da, da. Okay. There's still, there's, they're still looking into it. There's a $40,000 reward offered.

• 36:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And some, someone said, investigator said, and in my opinion, Mrs. Durham never made that phone call. When somebody, when some people come into your house to kill you, they're not going to let you make a phone call.

• 36:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 36:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course. I speculate.

• 36:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, maybe the call happened, but from a hitman that they hired. And, okay, I also want to give a shout out to, uh, jody.com. No, wait, it's called I Did It For Jody. J O D I E dot com. That is a really cool, like, uh, true crime blog that had a lot of good information.

• 37:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that name in reference to Mark David Chapman?

• 37:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Possibly.

• 37:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Tried to kill Reagan for Jodie Foster?

• 37:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe.

• 37:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wait, no, I'm sorry.

• 37:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Jody Arias?

• 37:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I've never seen you. What did I, you do?

• 37:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Just, I could, I could have, I think I got the name wrong. Was it, um, Hinckley? I'm thinking of John Hinckley.

• 37:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I never even noticed.

• 37:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Mark David Chapman is the one that killed John Lennon.

• 37:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 37:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, and then you just threw Jody Arias in there for fun.

• 37:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Facts, you guys. We're strong on facts. So.

• 37:55Karen Kilgariff?

  We're passionate about a lot of different names.

• 37:57Georgia Hardstark?

  I did it for jody.com. Good little true crime blog.

• 38:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That's very cool.

• 38:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Had a lot of cool information. And I fucking went all over the place with this. I was so fascinated by it. I just can't believe.

• 38:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:10Karen Kilgariff?

  They did it. Nothing.

• 38:12Georgia Hardstark?

  But they didn't even, he was never even a suspect.

• 38:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's weird. It was a small town?

• 38:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Small town, only unsolved murder.

• 38:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 38:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Is he still like, you said he became a lawyer?

• 38:24Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a lawyer. He's still, they're divorced. She won't now, she now won't cooperate with the cops anymore. She's like, I gave them all the information I could.

• 38:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Huh.

• 38:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Wow. Was that anticlimactic? Do I ask that every time?

• 38:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I think you do.

• 38:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Really do.

• 38:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's always when there's, when there's no, uh, resolution. I mean, it's always just, it makes me want to ask 95 questions.

• 38:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Which are the ones I love. I love when there's like, I love a good mystery.

• 38:51Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what I was thinking about is that other one that you had that was from Japan or whatever.

• 38:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 38:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Where they killed the family.

• 38:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 38:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I think about that one all the time.

• 38:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Who the fuck was it?

• 39:01Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 39:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It's enough information that it should have been able to be solved. That drives me crazy.

• 39:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, the frustrating thing too is that it's not like, when you're on this side of it and you don't know, you have it in your head that it's going to be some fascinating reveal.

• 39:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's always like, oh, that guy.

• 39:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why, yeah. I mean, that's why, that's why I like cold cases because it, you can imagine that it's. It's more, it's deeper than than just the stupidity of some, they're killing someone.

• 39:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 39:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, we're back. I had a lot of questions back then. Do you have any answers now?

• 39:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I do. I have actual updates and this case, I would call it solved.

• 39:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 39:42Georgia Hardstark?

  But there's still a mystery. So it's kind of like, you know, kind of comforting. So 50 years after the murders in 2022, officials identified the perpetrators of this crime. Because the case was reopened in 2019 after a man came forward saying that his father once admitted to killing three people in the North Carolina mountains during a thunderstorm. And so the father's name was Billy Sunday Burt. And he was the only suspect still alive and he gave up the names of his accomplices, which were Bobby Jean Gaddis, Charles David Reed, and someone named Billy Wayne Davis,

• 40:23Georgia Hardstark?

  which is actually the name of a comedian, friend of ours. So that's kind of fucking crazy, right?

• 40:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's truly wild. I mean,

• 40:30Georgia Hardstark?

  He's not involved.

• 40:30Karen Kilgariff?

  He's truly not involved, really not his style.

• 40:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Not at all.

• 40:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Actually is a part of our origin story.

• 40:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 40:37Karen Kilgariff?

  He was there when we first met and first started talking about fucked up shit.

• 40:40Georgia Hardstark?

  He's married to Aaron Dewey Lennox. And so all of these people were members of the so-called Dixie Mafia, which we've talked about before.

• 40:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 40:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And so the Dixie Mafia, according to NBC News, is a Georgia-based loosely organized network believed to have engaged in dozens of violent crimes across the southeast in the 1960s and the 1970s. So it's the mafia, it's the South.

• 41:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 41:06Georgia Hardstark?

  The thing is Davis confirms that the killing was a contract killing. But the problem is, we don't know who the person who ordered it was and why. So that's kind of a big deal.

• 41:17Karen Kilgariff?

  That's very important.

• 41:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And we speculate so much in the story that I'm kind of uncomfortable with it. It's, we do it in a way that we did in the beginning where we didn't think about. Who we were throwing accusations at.

• 41:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 41:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Like the daughter, the son-in-law, like we'd never said alleged until much later.

• 41:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course not.

• 41:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:38Karen Kilgariff?

  We were, it's true, we were just sitting there like laying on a couch and in your apartment, thinking like, we were just hypothesizing.

• 41:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, exactly.

• 41:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Just like, what if, what if? And that kind of sensitivity, it just took us, that's a perspective I just wasn't considering at all.

• 41:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And I feel the same way about the JonBenet Ramsey case where it's just like, how fun is it just to be like, what if it's this, what if it's that, what if it's that? But we're doing it in public and what if more than likely it's not?

• 42:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 42:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And you're just causing more pain and wounds, so.

• 42:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, and it goes hand in hand with like, we're not the kind of people that would assume a bunch of people would want to listen to us do what we're doing.

• 42:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 42:18Karen Kilgariff?

  And that was like, that's just our, you know, that's our learning curve.

• 42:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That makes this show a little painful and a little like, we don't want to look back and be like, oh, that means we're bad people.

• 42:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause there is a real naivete, if not straight up ignorance.

• 42:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, and as we say, we were always like working from the place where it was, which was, you know, people claiming on newspapers that fucking Burke Ramsey did it, you know? It's like, that was the culture.

• 42:50Karen Kilgariff?

  We were the National Enquirer generation. Where that little murdered girl's face was on that newspaper in the grocery store. When you were 15 years old, you were staring at her every single day.

• 43:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you're desensitized to it.

• 43:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Completely.

• 43:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Completely. And so the son-in-law Troy passed away in 2019. It remains unclear if he had any involvement whatsoever. And, um, yeah, that's it. So I don't know if we'll ever know who ordered that hit.

• 43:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 43:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 43:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I wonder if there's like Dixie Mafia, there's a file cabinet somewhere.

• 43:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you gotta hope.

• 43:25Karen Kilgariff?

  That's just like some weird reveal where.

• 43:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, at some point.

• 43:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, was your grandpa in the Dixie Mafia? Will you tell us about it at myfavormerderratgmail? That has to be a hometown, right?

• 43:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, for real. Any kind of Dixie Mafia, anything that you might know.

• 43:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:43Karen Kilgariff?

  For a second, I thought you were asking me if my grandpa was. Where I'm like, my, my grandpa was from Galway, Ireland.

• 43:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, right. Almost as likely as my grandpa being. All right, so let's listen to Karen's story. This one. This is an epic, classic MFM. It has classic merch that we're going to tell you about, too.

• 44:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Classic merch that I wear around the office every day.

• 44:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's still like one of the, I think it's like up there with Mary Vincent's story of like, you know, core memories of stories.

• 44:13Karen Kilgariff?

  In my heart, for sure.

• 44:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:15Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, so this is Karen's story about the survival of Terry Jo Dupert.

• 44:25Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 44:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 44:34Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 44:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone. And SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 45:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 45:21Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you. And it really helps the show.

• 45:29Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 45:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 45:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Holiday shopping gets a lot easier when you can find something for everyone.

• 45:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially when everyone includes yourself.

• 45:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Find thoughtful, high-quality gifts for everyone on your list at Quince.

• 45:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Quince makes beautiful, everyday essentials with high-quality materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. They're the kind of things you love to give as a gift or get yourself.

• 45:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $50, and they also have beautiful 14-karat gold earrings and bracelets that make great gifts.

• 46:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I was so excited when I got home and I got to break out my gray Quince cashmere sweater that I wear constantly around the house. We've been waiting for even the slightest temperature drop so that we could get into sweater weather, and finally it's here. And I celebrated with my beautiful Quince cashmere sweater that I think I got the second year we started doing ads for them.

• 46:25Georgia Hardstark?

  They laugh.

• 46:26Karen Kilgariff?

  They do.

• 46:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season.

• 46:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

• 46:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

• 46:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Now available in Canada and the UK, too.

• 46:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was My Favorite Murder. It's the best way to support the show.

• 46:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 46:52Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.

• 47:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 47:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 47:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 47:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 47:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 47:24Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 47:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 47:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 47:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 47:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services must be 18 years or older.

• 47:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 47:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes, and it's covered by insurance.

• 47:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E health.com/murder.

• 47:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 48:00Karen Kilgariff?

  All right. Well, you want to hear mine?

• 48:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 48:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, mine?

• 48:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty interesting. I remembered that I read this book called,

• 48:12Karen Kilgariff?

  let me see.

• 48:13Georgia Hardstark?

  The Bible?

• 48:15Karen Kilgariff?

  God, I love it. And I'm here to tell you about it, too. It's called Alone, Orphaned on the Sea. Which is what I wanted to call my book, but forget it.

• 48:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, sorry, Orphaned on the Ocean. I can call mine Orphaned on the Sea now. So I got really into, for a little while, before I ever saw the show I Survived, which I cannot get on the Lifetime on my Apple TV. I can't get it on my laptop.

• 48:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 48:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It will not let me access, even for money, it won't let me watch old episodes of I Survived. And I think that's wrong, and someone needs to do something about it.

• 48:56Georgia Hardstark?

  We need, listen, is it Lifetime?

• 48:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's like Lifetime.com. They only have them on their website, I think.

• 49:04Georgia Hardstark?

  You're missing out on a great opportunity for a shout out, and instead Karen's just disappointed.

• 49:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just mad, but I love all your movies. Anyhow's. So I read that I was super, got into these stories of survival for a little while in the, I would say, mid 90s. Maybe I was having a hard time myself. I can't remember. And I remember reading this book and being fascinated by it. And the thing that drew me to the book initially is on the cover of the book, there's a picture, and it's just the open ocean, and then a tiny, in the middle, a tiny white raft and a little girl sitting in it.

• 49:42Georgia Hardstark?

  No, is it a photograph?

• 49:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a photograph of the person I'm about to tell you about and how she was found.

• 49:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Losing my mind, losing my mind. Can I look at the photo? Should I wait? I'm gonna wait.

• 49:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I have the photo, I have the picture on my phone for you.

• 49:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone go look at the Durham family murder bathtub scene. And then, it's not gruesome, except they're all dead. Oh, my God, this little girl.

• 50:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Alone, orphaned on the ocean. All right, so this is the story of Terry Jo Depero. And she was from Green Bay, Wisconsin. Uh, when this happened to her, she was 11 years old. And um, her father, Arthur, was an optometrist from, uh, also from Green Bay, obviously. She wasn't from a different area. Um, and Arthur had always dreamed of taking a year off and sailing around like the Bahamas. Basically sailing the world with his family. He had been in World War II and he had been in like the tropics.

• 50:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And so he thought that would be amazing, especially it was coming up on winter in um, Green Bay.

• 50:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, fuck that.

• 50:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, right. So he um, he'd always wanted to basically live on a boat for like a year. And so his idea was he's gonna take the family down to the Bahamas. Um, they're gonna rent a sailboat and try it out for a week, see if the kids actually like it, or if he's just full of beans and uh, and then see, see where their adventure will take them. Okay, so they, they fly down to um, Florida and they charter

• 51:22Karen Kilgariff?

  a two masted sailboat called the Blue Bell. And they hire Captain Julian Harvey, who is a former Air Force fighter pilot, um, and an experienced sailor, and they have him captain the ship. And um,

• 51:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Doesn't that seem weird to like, be like my whole family and some guy?

• 51:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, well, the guy brought his wife, Mary.

• 51:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 51:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so I think they were kind of acting as like the uh, casual crew.

• 51:46Georgia Hardstark?

  It was a swinger situation.

• 51:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It was super key party. So, because this was also in, uh, oh, this was 1961.

• 51:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 51:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so they sailed out of Florida um, on November 8th, 1961, and they sailed east toward the island of Bimini.

• 52:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 52:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, Bimini, Bimini.

• 52:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Bill?

• 52:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And then they went on to Sandy Point on the great Abaco Island. And the family spent a week there snorkeling and collecting shells on pink and white beaches. They just had a gorgeous vacation. And it's such a good time that Dr. Dupero told the village commissioner, uh, cause they had to fill out paperwork to go back to America. And that he planned to return before Christmas. So they were super into the sailboating family dream.

• 52:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Cool.

• 52:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so then they left and they set sail for home. And that night around nine PM, Terry Jo headed downstairs to the sleep, her sleeping quarters in the back of the boat. Her brother and little sister had stayed upstairs in the cockpit with the parents. And around 11, she woke up because she heard her brother yelling daddy help. And then she heard stomping sounds and then it went quiet. And she laid in her bunk shaking and confused and not sure what was going on.

• 53:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's 11?

• 53:15Karen Kilgariff?

  She's 11 years old.

• 53:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my gosh, okay.

• 53:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So finally she sneaks up to the main cabin. Uh, and she sees her mother and brother lying in a big pool of blood.

• 53:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 53:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So she said the second she saw them, she knew she, they were dead. So she went past them and snuck up, uh, to the cockpit hatch. And she stuck her head out and she saw more blood on the deck. And she saw a knife on the ground.

• 53:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 53:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So she crawls out of the hatch because she's trying to find her dad. And Captain Harvey runs at her and growls, get back down there and pushes her down the stairs.

• 53:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 53:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So she closes her eyes, runs past her brother and mom and goes back to her bunk. And gets into her, get, goes back to her cabin and gets back in the bunk. And she lays there, she doesn't know what to do. She's obviously probably in shock, freaking out. Then she hears sloshing and she looks down and the floor of her sleeping quarters is covered in oily water. And she realizes the ship is sinking.

• 54:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 54:22Karen Kilgariff?

  So she's afraid to move, but she looks up and then suddenly the captain's standing in the doorway staring at her. And he's, um, carrying her brother's rifle. And he stares at her for a little bit, then he just turns and walks away. So. Uh, she lays in bed, frozen stiff, doesn't know what to do, but pretty soon the water's up to her mattress.

• 54:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 54:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So she knew she had to get out of there. So she wades through waist deep water, out of her cabin, um, out through, or out of her quarters, out through the main cabin, she goes back up on deck and she looks over the side and she sees that the, the life raft is already in the water. And Captain Harvey walks up to her and hands her the rope that connects, connecting the life raft and says, "Hold on to this, I'll be back in a second." And she's in such shock and fear, she drops the rope. And so as he's walking away, he looks and sees that the rope is going and the dinghy's starting to float away.

• 55:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 55:22Karen Kilgariff?

  So he dives in after it and, uh, he dives in after it and she watched him swim after the boat and disappear into the night.

• 55:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, I got, I have so many questions, go on.

• 55:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I stole that last line directly from the Reader's Digest article that I was reading about this story. I read several articles about it, but Reader's Digest was the main one and I just want to thank them for being an American classic.

• 55:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I miss that. I used to read this when I was a kid, that's all I read.

• 55:52Karen Kilgariff?

  When you went to the bathroom at your aunt's house?

• 55:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't want to say it.

• 55:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all about Reader's Digest.

• 55:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh man, cover to cover.

• 55:58Karen Kilgariff?

  So, okay. So it's an 11 year old girl standing on a sinking boat.

• 56:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 56:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, who's witnessed her family murdered, part of her family murdered. She, what does she do? Does she cry? Does she cower? No. She remembers that there is a small cork life raft in the cockpit. So she runs and grabs it and as she does, as she grabs a hold of it, and they, they don't describe this that much, but, um, she basically runs forward to the front of the boat, grabs the life raft. By the time she gets there, the boat is sinking under her feet. So she has just enough time to jump onto it as the boat goes under the water.

• 56:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 56:43Karen Kilgariff?

  So she basically went down with the ship and then jumped onto this little cork life raft.

• 56:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 56:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So. Now she's alone at sea in a tiny raft. Um, it's ti- it's three feet long. I mean, you, you saw it in that picture. She barely, she doesn't fit into it. She couldn't lay down in it. It's half her. It's probably like, can hold her legs. So she has a blouse and pants on. She's freezing cold. It's pitch black. There's no moon out. She can't see, so she keeps getting hit with huge waves. And the saltwater's getting in her eyes and stinging her eyes. She can't open her eyes. And she's afraid that Captain Harvey is nearby.

• 57:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 57:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So that's, then it starts raining. So her, her first night out in the water, bad news.

• 57:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 57:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Anytime you're lost, you're out at sea. I wouldn't be looking for good news.

• 57:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Although I wonder if, but, that not saltwater, that it was raining down, was helpful in some way, like she could drink it or something.

• 57:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, maybe. You mean hydration wise?

• 57:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:45Karen Kilgariff?

  For a second, I thought you meant, I wonder if, if she was in a freshwater.

• 57:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Was she in a fish tank?

• 57:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Was she? Did she go to Lake Havasu? Um, okay. So she wakes up, wakes up the next morning. The sun comes out. She's not cold anymore. Now, of course, she's boiling hot. Uh.

• 58:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I've seen Joe versus volcano. I know what it's like.

• 58:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, yeah, you know what it's like to be on a raft, but his raft was nice.

• 58:11Georgia Hardstark?

  It was pretty sweet.

• 58:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Huge. And he had that great suitcase.

• 58:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, her raft was slowly disintegrating.

• 58:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 58:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 58:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Sweet baby angel.

• 58:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, so she has to hang her legs over the side to float, like the, the plastic rubbery part that has the air in it is the part that's not disintegrating. So she has to sit on the edge and then hang her legs over the side. Then parrot fish come and start biting her legs.

• 58:33Georgia Hardstark?

  What are parrot fish? They sound like dicks.

• 58:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, I don't know.

• 58:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It sounds like, oh, they start biting her legs.

• 58:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I bet they're the ones that you see in tropical fish tanks.

• 58:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, they think they're all big, but they're fancy colors and their teeth.

• 58:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucking shark food.

• 58:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So. Uh, that's her first day, it sucks. The next day.

• 58:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It's her first day, it sucks.

• 58:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It sucks.

• 58:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Is the best description I've ever heard.

• 58:59Karen Kilgariff?

  The next day she wakes up, her tongue is swelling in her mouth because of all the salt that she's taking in and no hydration. And then she sees a plane and she's waving, she takes her shirt off and waves and waves and waves this, this white shirt over her head. It dips down toward her a little bit and then flies away and never comes back.

• 59:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait, what? No.

• 59:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That was how she was gonna get saved?

• 59:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Nope. So that afternoon, she spots some shapes swimming in the water about thirty, uh, yards away. And she's scared to death because she thinks they're sharks.

• 59:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Friend or foe.

• 59:32Karen Kilgariff?

  When they come closer, it's a pod of porpoises that swim with her.

• 59:37Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 59:37Karen Kilgariff?

  For hours and hours.

• 59:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Never, no.

• 59:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Now we all cry at the beauty of nature.

• 59:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you, are you, this is one hundred percent for sure.

• 59:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, this is from her, this is her book, Alone, Orphan of the Ocean.

• 59:51Georgia Hardstark?

  What did they, what they?

• 59:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Because.

• 59:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, but like, how did, how, oh my god.

• 59:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you ever seen those specials where they have children that have like brain damage or some kind of disease get into water with a dolphin? They do studies and their brain function improves when they're around dolphins. Dolphins have like weird fucking children ESP and they know when something's in the water and needs their help. And they're beautiful creatures and you have to stop killing them.

• 1:00:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:00:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I thought you were, I thought you were really crying for a second.

• 1:00:29Karen Kilgariff?

  What if I was accusing you personally of killing them?

• 1:00:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Georgia.

• 1:00:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Please, with all your tuna. Alright. Okay, so that night, the sea is totally still. Now that, I'm gonna admit to a half lie in this because I remember this from the book, but I read this book almost twenty years ago.

• 1:00:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:00:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So who knows what bullshit I've layered on top of this, but I'm pretty sure I remember this.

• 1:00:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:52Karen Kilgariff?

  That the sea this one night was still so she could see the stars like down, down to the horizon.

• 1:00:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:01:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And there was bioluminescent algae in the water. So it was all like, she basically said she wasn't that scared until the very end because these cool things kept happening and that was one of them. That she saw like that the whole ocean was glowing green and then she could see every single star.

• 1:01:19Georgia Hardstark?

  This reminds me of James and the Giant Peach.

• 1:01:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Remember when they were in the ocean on the peach?

• 1:01:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I fucking love that book.

• 1:01:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I read, that was my favorite book in the whole world.

• 1:01:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Except for the, the copy I had, because it was from like 1979, because it was when I was a child. There was an illustration of James at the beginning that is the saddest picture of any child ever. I tweeted it one time.

• 1:01:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:01:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so sad.

• 1:01:42Georgia Hardstark?

  When his parents got killed by a fucking rhino that escaped from the zoo.

• 1:01:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe that's why I always thought my, my parents were gonna die.

• 1:01:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Because that was my favorite book.

• 1:01:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, because Rod Doll liked to plant those pretty early and often.

• 1:01:55Georgia Hardstark?

  He did.

• 1:01:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Just be prepared to be an orphan just in case.

• 1:01:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Which I appreciate to a, to a degree.

• 1:01:59Karen Kilgariff?

  He should have said, be prepared to be an orphan of the sea.

• 1:02:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that could also happen.

• 1:02:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucking tie it in, go ahead.

• 1:02:05Karen Kilgariff?

  So, I had to bring it back. That night, when she fell asleep, she dreamed, she saw her father peacefully drinking a glass of red wine and telling her, come on, we're leaving.

• 1:02:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So when she woke up on the third day, she was really sore, her skin was burnt, through her clothes.

• 1:02:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:23Karen Kilgariff?

  All her joints ached. Um, she'd been bouncing on the edge of that raft because almost all the bottom was now gone.

• 1:02:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, and she started hallucinating. She would see tiny islands with one palm tree on them and then start paddling, paddling, paddling, and then when she'd get to them, they would disappear.

• 1:02:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:02:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, on the fourth-

• 1:02:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Sounds like a far side comic.

• 1:02:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 1:02:46Karen Kilgariff?

  On the fourth day, she didn't wake up in the morning. She was losing consciousness. She was close to death. And when she finally did wake up, she woke up because she felt a shadow over her. And when she opened her eyes, she said she saw a huge whale hanging in, in the air above her.

• 1:03:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:03:04Karen Kilgariff?

  But what it actually was, was a Greek freighter. That miraculously had, someone had spotted her on this Greek freighter. And that's the person, one of the people, one of the sailors on this ship, took that picture that I showed you.

• 1:03:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:03:21Karen Kilgariff?

  The second they saw her. So that was her still lost at sea, basically.

• 1:03:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, and she didn't even know yet.

• 1:03:27Karen Kilgariff?

  So she, for her, the experience for her was a whale was hanging over her. And then she was being lifted in the air. And then she was in big, strong arms. And then she was asleep. And the next thing you, she knew she woke up and she was at the hospital in Florida.

• 1:03:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Big, strong arms?

• 1:03:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Big, strong arms.

• 1:03:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And a whale.

• 1:03:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And Greek arms. So they'd have that real good hair.

• 1:03:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Real good wrist.

• 1:03:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Shiny.

• 1:03:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe a pipe.

• 1:03:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably. It smells like, smells like a pipe. He smells like a pipe.

• 1:03:55Karen Kilgariff?

  He'd smell like a pipe. He'd definitely have a big beard.

• 1:03:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:04:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, this is just our fantasies now.

• 1:04:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, this is a different podcast. All right. Uh, so she got helicoptered to the hospital in Miami. She was treated for dehydration and severe sunburn. In a week, she recovered with no serious injuries.

• 1:04:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:04:14Karen Kilgariff?

  But not so for Doc, for Captain Julian, Julian Harvey.

• 1:04:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, hell no.

• 1:04:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I was gonna call him doctor. Um, so Captain Harvey was rescued the next day.

• 1:04:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:04:26Karen Kilgariff?

  By a lookout on, um, on an oil tanker that was headed for Puerto Rico. And when they found him, he had the dead body of Terry Jo's seven-year-old sister Renee in the life raft.

• 1:04:37Georgia Hardstark?

  What? Why?

• 1:04:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, he told the Coast Guard that he had found her in the water and tried to revive her. And, um, so basically, but she, the, the autopsy showed that she drowned, she drowned. Um.

• 1:04:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So, uh, he, the story he told the Coast Guard was that the blue belt was damaged in a squall in the middle of the night. And, um, his wife and the DuPero's were injured when the masts and rigging collapsed. He said gas lines in the engine room ruptured and the ship caught fire as it slowly sank. He said he'd managed to launch the dinghy and raft and dive overboard, but the tangled rigging had trapped everyone else on board. The police were totally suspicious, but there was nothing to prove otherwise. And then three days later,

• 1:05:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:05:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Terry Jo shows up, survives.

• 1:05:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Boom.

• 1:05:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And when Harvey finds out that she survived, he killed himself in his hotel room.

• 1:05:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:05:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So, turns out, they do some investigating and Harvey had serious financial problems and he had just taken out a life insurance policy on his wife, Mary.

• 1:05:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucking life insurance policies.

• 1:05:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not, they need to, there needs to be more steps before you can just take out a life insurance policy on your wife.

• 1:05:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Or husband.

• 1:05:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Or children. The police theorized that he had killed his wife for the insurance money, but was caught in the act by Arthur DeBero, prompting him, uh, prompting Harvey to murder him and the rest of his family.

• 1:06:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, it was found, later found that Mary had been Harvey's sixth wife.

• 1:06:13Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:06:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And not the first to die while married to him.

• 1:06:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Come on.

• 1:06:17Karen Kilgariff?

  He had miraculously survived a car accident that had claimed another wife of his and her mother, both his yacht Torbatross, which is a terrible fucking name, and his powerboat Valiant, had both sunk under suspicious circumstances. They had all yielded large insurance settlements.

• 1:06:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:06:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Turns out Captain Harvey was kind of a serial killer.

• 1:06:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:06:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Terry Jo was raised in Wisconsin by her aunt. She never talked about the ordeal. Her family told everyone not to bring it up in front of her. So she lived with this for years and years and years.

• 1:06:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Does that sound mentally healthy to you?

• 1:06:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It is not mentally healthy.

• 1:06:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you guys-

• 1:06:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the worst- Worst thing you could do.

• 1:07:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Talk about your trauma.

• 1:07:02Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to talk about it.

• 1:07:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Talk about it to someone who is trained professionally.

• 1:07:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Someone cool and who's trained, you have to talk about things like, I mean, come on. I think people, I think these days people know that, but this was the sixties, it was Wisconsin.

• 1:07:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Press it way down deep.

• 1:07:18Karen Kilgariff?

  This is, I mean, that's, you know, that's what a lot of families do. My family is very much like, eh, don't bring it up. We don't want to bother anybody.

• 1:07:27Karen Kilgariff?

  So she finally went to therapy as an adult. And fifty years later, she wrote a book with a survival psychologist named Richard Logan called Alone: Orphaned on the Ocean.

• 1:07:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:07:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And she actually took sodium amitopine, which I believe is.

• 1:07:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So that she could remember everything. So she went all the way back.

• 1:07:51Georgia Hardstark?

  So fucking cool.

• 1:07:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Holy shit. That's our girl, Terri Jo DePereaux.

• 1:07:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to read that.

• 1:07:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And she has an I survived.

• 1:07:59Georgia Hardstark?

  No, of course she does. Really? I want to see that.

• 1:08:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But I didn't, I didn't pick this one because I saw it and I survived. Cause the I survived doesn't, for me, doesn't tell you enough.

• 1:08:08Georgia Hardstark?

  They take all the good ones.

• 1:08:09Karen Kilgariff?

  They really, I mean, they do.

• 1:08:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That is so, I have never heard that before.

• 1:08:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a good one, right? Eleven years old.

• 1:08:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I think you won. Is this a game? I think you won.

• 1:08:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Can't be a game. Please.

• 1:08:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, also, if it's a game, the people, when you know, when you have a big Captain Harvey is a serial killer reveal. I mean.

• 1:08:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but also a girl surviving in a boat, that's pretty fucking sweet.

• 1:08:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty goddamn cinematic.

• 1:08:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I add that none of the hands of the family in the bathtub were tied behind their back?

• 1:08:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Where were they tied?

• 1:08:43Georgia Hardstark?

  They weren't tied, was what I, or like, so maybe they were unconscious from being strangled.

• 1:08:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, they would have to be.

• 1:08:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause there was no defense.

• 1:08:50Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no defense, there's no fighting, but their hands are free?

• 1:08:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but, yeah, yes.

• 1:08:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That doesn't make sense.

• 1:08:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not trying to one up you.

• 1:09:00Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no.

• 1:09:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Remembered that part.

• 1:09:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Please, please.

• 1:09:04Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, you said the wife was strangled, but the other two had rope burns around their neck? Like they were hungs?

• 1:09:11Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I think they were all strangled.

• 1:09:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:09:14Georgia Hardstark?

  By, oh, there's like a, like a, some kind of rope that would tie, like that they got at the house. So, so it's not like they brought these weapons with them, whoever killed them.

• 1:09:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, right. And this might be a good time to say, considering the fact that that guy's a lawyer, that everything that we accuse him of is alleged.

• 1:09:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Alleged, hearsay?

• 1:09:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And not proven.

• 1:09:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Speculation?

• 1:09:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Gossip?

• 1:09:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Podcasting.

• 1:09:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, you're right.

• 1:09:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit. Please don't tell on us.

• 1:09:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And that was the end of the podcast that they did.

• 1:09:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Ended. Y'all ladies think you're smart, you think you're funny and smart, guess what?

• 1:09:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that how he sounds?

• 1:09:56Karen Kilgariff?

  He's from North Carolina, right?

• 1:09:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure, is it? Yeah.

• 1:09:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know where that accent is from.

• 1:09:59Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I buy it. Well, that's some fucked up shit.

• 1:10:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Well?

• 1:10:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, go to our Instagram account, uh, instagram.com/MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:10:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to Twitter, MyFaveMurder at Twitter.

• 1:10:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, Facebook page, fucking, hang out with us.

• 1:10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Hang out. Oh, but the one thing I will say is now we're getting lots of recommendations. If it's on, let's stop pretending Netflix has a bunch of choices.

• 1:10:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Netflix has like, let's say, 20 British shows.

• 1:10:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  We've seen them all.

• 1:10:35Georgia Hardstark?

  If it's on Netflix or HBO.

• 1:10:37Karen Kilgariff?

  The challenge to you is to find a British procedural I haven't seen. Good luck. And the person who suggested DCI Banks, I laugh in your face. Just kidding. I don't even think that's what they suggested. But I mean, I've, I've honestly seen them all. Someone said I've seen them all, including Midsummer, Midsummer Mysteries, which really is like total grandma TV.

• 1:10:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I've tried to watch that one too.

• 1:11:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:11:00Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's very grandma-y.

• 1:11:02Georgia Hardstark?

  You love that shit, man.

• 1:11:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I do. I'm sorry, that, that was just, I had to tag that on.

• 1:11:06Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I get it. I, I appreciate it. It's kind of, it's sweet. It's, the intentions are sweet.

• 1:11:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course.

• 1:11:13Georgia Hardstark?

  But also enough.

• 1:11:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, just give me something new.

• 1:11:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Karen Kilgariff?

  That's all.

• 1:11:18Georgia Hardstark?

  For sure.

• 1:11:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, well, you guys, thanks for listening.

• 1:11:24Karen Kilgariff?

  You guys.

• 1:11:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Haven't even asked you yet.

• 1:11:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Have I?

• 1:11:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You're jumping your line.

• 1:11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you want a cookie? There you go.

• 1:11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back. I still think you won this week.

• 1:11:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean.

• 1:11:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, well, I think this story is so, uh, it's extraordinary and there's nothing better, I think, than a survival story, unless it's a survival story of a little girl.

• 1:11:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah, who by all accounts should not have survived that.

• 1:12:02Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:12:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a fucking miracle.

• 1:12:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a miracle and like, and the beginning, it's not just like, oh, she was on a cruise ship and the cruise ship went down.

• 1:12:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:09Karen Kilgariff?

  What she experienced before she then became stranded at sea.

• 1:12:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Was so horrifying and like.

• 1:12:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Traumatic.

• 1:12:17Karen Kilgariff?

  From a movie, it just wild.

• 1:12:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. What an incredible, incredible survival story. Do you have any updates?

• 1:12:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I do have a few. Terri Jo has a different last name. Her three children and her grandchildren live near her. She spent 14 years as a water management specialist in the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources.

• 1:12:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:12:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And she says, quote, "I went on to protect the water that had protected me as a little girl. Water is life and it is soothing for me to be on the beach. I find I can think clearly, relax and feel closer to my lost family."

• 1:12:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so beautiful and pure because she could have been deathly afraid for the rest of her life of water and the ocean.

• 1:13:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And that would make perfect sense. But to embrace it as the thing that saved her, not the thing that tormented her, you know.

• 1:13:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:13:09Georgia Hardstark?

  For all those days she was out there is like such an interesting, like, I think we should all take a little something from that.

• 1:13:15Karen Kilgariff?

  She seems very, yes, she seems like the kind of person that, having gone through a thing that a lot of us would be like, I don't know if I could actually.

• 1:13:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Get through that, especially at that age.

• 1:13:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:25Karen Kilgariff?

  She didn't just get through it, but she, especially in that book, if you haven't read her book, you absolutely should. But it's like the philosophical part of her is just like, well, here's what we're all gonna learn from this.

• 1:13:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and here's what it means to me. I get to make up what it means to me.

• 1:13:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:43Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, not the circumstances.

• 1:13:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:13:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck yeah, let's all do that.

• 1:13:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very cool.

• 1:13:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, so when this came out, my dear friend Kat Solin, who's an incredible artist, came up with a rad design. It's a little girl on a raft. It's like a little cartoon drawing, but it's like, ah, it invokes so many emotions, the drawing.

• 1:14:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's such beautiful art.

• 1:14:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It really is.

• 1:14:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It's truly my favorite.

• 1:14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, Kat's so good at that. So, um, we're gonna sell it for one week.

• 1:14:09Karen Kilgariff?

  We're gonna bring it back.

• 1:14:10Georgia Hardstark?

  You can preorder a limited edition zip hoodie or mug, and you can get that at exactlyrightstore.com. So run over there and get that.

• 1:14:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's taken from the real picture that was taken from the deck of the freighter of her rescuers. So like, it, it, it's beautiful art, but then it's also like, it's, the art is based on a true story. It's just like the coolest, coolest. And we're gonna close this preorder at midnight on January 21st. So don't wait, go get it. If you like that art, you can finally get it again for the first time in years.

• 1:14:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 1:14:43Karen Kilgariff?

  So this episode, as we were talking about, originally titled, "I 28 His Liver," with some fava beans and a nice county. So if we were gonna rename it today, what are some ideas of what we should pick?

• 1:14:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, if we were to name it now, based on something we said during the episode, how about, "My safe is behind my picture." When you were talking about burglars know where to hide stuff in the home, and you just fucking told everyone, basically. "My safe is behind my picture" is a, is a good. I could see that on, on our iTunes, you know?

• 1:15:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Although I don't have a safe.

• 1:15:18Karen Kilgariff?

  And then I also said, "Now we all cry." After telling you about how the dolphins swam with her. The dolphins swam with her and stayed with her.

• 1:15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible. And they probably chased those fucking parrot fish away.

• 1:15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:15:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Dicks.

• 1:15:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And those asshole sharks.

• 1:15:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god. I think, "Now we all cry."

• 1:15:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Now we all cry.

• 1:15:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's a good one. All right, thanks for looking back at the past with us, and we like doing it.

• 1:15:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that was another one, another rewind.

• 1:15:45Karen Kilgariff?

  We did it.

• 1:15:46Georgia Hardstark?

  We'll do it again, why not?

• 1:15:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sexy.

• 1:15:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:15:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:15:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

• 1:16:04Georgia Hardstark?

  With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 1:16:10Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

• 1:16:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to budget beach bliss at your fingertips.

• 1:16:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.

• 1:16:24Speaker 03

  Goodbye. Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription-maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection,

• 1:17:09Speaker 03

  common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or fluke-like symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extenture. Learn more at Extenture.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:17:26Speaker 04

  Quick break from the case. If there's a kid on your gift list this year, here's one you can close fast. Guardian is the number one kids' bike on the market with over 1 million happy riders and the easiest way to learn. They're lightweight with a wide-wheel base, so kids ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. Designed and assembled in the USA and named Wirecutter's Top Pick four years in a row. Save over 40% now. Plus, get over $120 in free accessories with every bike. That's GuardianBikes.com.