Bait and What’s Making Us Happy

In the whimsical Prime Video comedy series Bait, the great Riz Ahmed plays Shah, an actor in the middle of a career downturn who lands an audition to be the next James Bond. But when this leaks to the public, the social media reactions to the possibility of a brown 007 are unhinged. And one particularly disturbing response shakes Shah’s confidence and sends his personal life into a tailspin. See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The 2026 midterm elections are upon us. On November 3rd, voters will determine what the next two years of their local leadership and the balance of national government will look like. Listen to the NPR News Now podcast for all the updates you need ahead of and after November 3rd from NPR News.

• 0:23Aisha Harris?

  You're listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour, the podcast that keeps you plugged in about the latest and greatest in movies, TV, music, and more. And if you're a pop culture junkie who's not following the show yet, we're thinking you need to fix that right now by following Pop Culture Happy Hour on your favorite podcast app. And now, onto the show. The world's still waiting on the answer to a very pressing question. Who will be the next James Bond? In the meantime, the great Riz Ahmed has thrown his hat in the ring. Well, fictionally speaking, anyway. He created and stars in the whimsical comedy series Bait and plays an actor who's in the running for the role of 007.

• 1:04Aisha Harris?

  But the path toward donning the tux and driving the Aston Martin is paved with hurdles, family drama, relationship issues, and most of all, his own insecurities. I'm Aisha Harris, and joining me today on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour is Vulture TV critic Roxana Hadadi. Hey, Roxana, welcome back.

• 1:22Speaker 02

  Hey, thank you so much for having me.

• 1:24Aisha Harris?

  Lovely to have you. And also with us is Jeff Yang. He's a cultural critic and author of The Golden Screen: The Movies That Made Asian America. Welcome back to you, too, Jeff.

• 1:34Speaker 03

  Always great to be here.

• 1:36Aisha Harris?

  Yes, I'm very excited for this conversation with you both. So in Bait, Riz Ahmed plays Shah, an actor who's currently in the middle of a career downturn. Now, he lands an audition to be the next James Bond, but when this leaks to the public, the social media reactions to the possibility of a brown 007 are just about as normal as you would expect, which is to say, they're unhinged. And one particularly disturbing response shakes Shah's confidence and sends his personal life into a tailspin. The cast includes Gus Khan as Zulfi, Shah's brother cousin and right-hand man, Shiva Chada as Tyra, Shah's supportive mother, and Patrick Stewart as himself slash a pig's head. I'm sure we'll get into that in a little bit.

• 2:21Aisha Harris?

  It's quite a bit there. Bait is streaming now on Prime Video and we should mention, Amazon supports NPR and pays to distribute some of our content. It's also probably just worth noting that Amazon MGM Studios owns the Bond franchise as well. So that's some very interesting corporate synergy going on here. But it's probably not a soft launch or a hard launch of Riz Ahmed as Bond. Who knows? But anyway, Jeff, I'm going to start with you. Did you take the bait?

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Hook, line and sinker. You know, I went in pretty skeptical about the premise just because there's a whole sort of cottage industry now of Asians exploring their identity through popular culture on screen. You've got stuff like Master of None and Everything Everywhere All at Once and Shortcomings: Interior Chinatown. And a lot of them have been really good, but sometimes it's hard to say, well, is this next one going to lend something more? Is it going to, is it going to expand that horizon? And the fact is, the very thing that I was a little skeptical about ended up being not just the core of the premise of this, but the very fact that Amazon owns MGM now and is the caretaker of the James Bond franchise

• 3:39Speaker 03

  was something that I was worried about because I thought this was going to be either self-parody or an attempt at, I don't know, gatekeeping? And instead, it was this hugely subversive moment that blended that question of Asian identity and self-reflection and mental health with this mythical avatar of whiteness for the British Empire. I loved it. I really enjoyed this much more than I thought I would. And if it was possible to have a season two, I'd watch a season two of this.

• 4:09Aisha Harris?

  Interesting, interesting. Okay. Thank you, Jeff. Roxana, did you take the bait?

• 4:14Speaker 02

  I did. I like that we're, we're using this.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  I did, I did like it. I mean, I hesitate to put this out there, but I do feel like Riz's work is particularly interesting because I think over like the 20 years that he has been acting and writing and creating, the question of representation is in everything, right? Like whether it matters, what is its impact now versus its impact like 10 years ago? How does that change? These are constant questions and everything from like Four Lions to The Night of, to Sound of Metal, to all the stuff that he's been in really, even the things, of course, that don't matter to his ethnicity at all, like Venom.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  It is a really interesting thing that he has been circling his entire career. And I think it is fascinating to Jeff's point to use Bond as like the filter to process all of that. So I think it's really heady and really meta and very self-aware in a way that is perpetually like tripping up the viewer because it's sort of like pointing at you and telling you to remember like, remember when we wanted Idris Elba to do this role? Like, remember when the internet was fighting?

• 5:36Speaker 03

  Still want it.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  You know, I still want it. Sure. I don't think he wants it anymore, but I think we do.

• 5:42Aisha Harris?

  He's, he's quite older, I think, at this point to just hop in.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  He just got knighted. Like Idris is actually fine, but I liked that the series is sort of like drawing us into those questions. I also really liked that it's very funny. Riz is very funny. If you've seen any of his British satire stuff. And I think him and Ghaz Khan are an amazing comedic duo.

• 6:07Speaker 04

  And if you're strapped for Pesa right now, I'll take you on as a driver. I don't mind.

• 6:11Speaker 05

  Don't need any money from you, bro. I got, yeah, I got stuff.

• 6:14Speaker 04

  There's no one I heard.

• 6:15Speaker 05

  I got stuff cooking.

• 6:16Speaker 04

  What you got cooking?

• 6:17Speaker 05

  I can't tell you. This is top secret. I signed an NDA.

• 6:19Speaker 04

  You ain't signed no NDA.

• 6:21Speaker 05

  I didn't.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  To Jeff's point of wanting a sequel, I would just watch like a travel show with the two of them. I don't know. I mean, I would watch anything with the two of them. I think there's a lot to like. I think it is messy. I think it is a point that it's messy and it might test people a little bit in the middle of it. But I am, I am a pro.

• 6:42Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, yeah. I shared sort of your similar reservations about this just because it, it does feel.

• 6:50Aisha Harris?

  I do wonder how much representation as a theme in work, like how far that can go these days. I mean, Jeff, you've mentioned, you know, some really great shows, including Interior Chinatown, Master of None, which are kind of dealing with these ideas of representation. And I feel, I mean, not to play the Olympics here, but like, it feels like a similar path I've seen with black filmmaking. And what are the limitations of those types of stories that focus so heavily on like, can I play this role? And honestly, I got a lot of like Hollywood shuffle out of this in many ways. The Robert Townsend film, where it's kind of like, you know, you're auditioning for this role. I mean, it's not quite a one-to-one comparison, but I feel as though that movie is also kind of zany.

• 7:34Aisha Harris?

  There's imaginative moments, fantastical moments, and there's things like that here. And the question of like, how much do I want to sell myself out to do these certain roles? And despite the fact that I had those reservations, I do think overall, I became really taken by the story that is being told, especially when it's not so focused on representation. One of my favorite, actually, I think the best episode is the one that kind of just, representation is there, but it's not the center. And that's during their Eid celebration in episode three. And so, you know, just a little bit of setup here, but like essentially in the previous episode, Shah was at this museum event that he got in like last minute and he wanted to give this speech or whatever.

• 8:17Aisha Harris?

  And at one point, a museum protester like barges in and Shah goes, he just goes a little overboard for the moment and injures this museum protester. And so in episode three, it's the next day and the family, his entire family is having their Eid celebration. While his agent Felicia, who's played by Warruchay Opia, she keeps pressing Shah over the phone to be like, you know, you need to craft an apology video, like you need to do this because this is bad for you. This is not a good look. And so him trying to please his family as these celebrations are happening, while also trying to make this video that he like, doesn't even feel like he should be making, like that is fun. And I love seeing Riz play a character who is kind of annoying.

• 9:02Aisha Harris?

  He does a lot of bad things. There's another word I would use, but I can't because it's NPR, but like, he is. The fact that he has people who care for him, he's very lucky because I don't think I could be friends with this dude. He's so, he's so self-centered and also just doesn't really understand the social contract in some certain ways. Right. And I love seeing that aspect of him.

• 9:25Speaker 05

  You send a message heartfelt one. Instead of it going green, it goes gray. What does that mean to you?

• 9:31Speaker 06

  It means you're blocked.

• 9:33Speaker 05

  Really?

• 9:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 05

  Let me just show you this.

• 9:36Speaker 06

  Okay, I'm gonna ask you to leave now.

• 9:37Aisha Harris?

  When it's really focused on him as a sort of self-involved actor, who is also dealing with his own insecurities, that's for me when the show really, really shines.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  I do think that Riz Ahmed's performance is such an anchor for the show in so many ways. I mean, the whole cast is incredible, but it's just super hard to make hypocritical self-loathing appealing or even watchable. And somehow, he really does it. And yes, I love the E episode. I thought it was such a great center point, kind of a pivot for this very short series. But he kind of grabbed me from the very first moment of his introduction. You come into the show and he's basically blaming himself for blowing this audition, which we kind of see him do. And then there's this moment where he's talking to a mirror and berating himself really horribly.

• 10:27Speaker 05

  You should be ashamed of yourself. You are ashamed of yourself because you're ashamed of your family. Nobody, nothing.

• 10:33Speaker 03

  Then the audio tech comes in to take off the mic. It turns out the whole time he's like on this hot mic because he has not actually been de-miked this whole time. And as he sort of leans over to have the mic taken off, he just kind of like places his head on the guy's shoulder, like going in for a hug because he's so broken and sad. And I was like, man, that's such a tiny detail. Great choice. I was in. I was like, okay, let's see where this is going.

• 11:00Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there are lots of those little sort of physical moments where however Riz is carrying himself or the very slight changes he makes to his facial expressions are really strong. I am contractually obligated to mention Leonardo DiCaprio in every conversation I ever have, but it made me think a lot about Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

• 11:23Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  And sort of Leo's performance of an actor who thinks that he has like peaked. He's not sure what could come next. I think Riz mines a lot of really compelling pathos from someone who Has sort of like lost faith in themselves, right?

• 11:42Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Has lost faith in the social contract too, because I know what it's like to have very demanding immigrant parents. I know that experience.

• 11:51Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  I saw a lot of shared, yeah, like shared commonalities in how his family treats him. So I think all of that stuff is really great. I also think maybe something that's worth talking about is the fact that this is six episodes. They are generally like 25 minutes. And I would say each episode is a different genre, right? Like he's doing a paranoid thriller in one, the Eid celebration, which is more of like a family drama. There's almost like a Richard Linklater style shot romance.

• 12:26Aisha Harris?

  Yes.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  So I like also that he and his collaborators are showing this fluidity with genre. And again, sort of making this implicit look, someone who looks like Riz can do all of these things. This is not like model minority storytelling, like he sucks.

• 12:44Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  It is also just, I think, a really strong proof of concept to say, look, maybe Riz is not going to be Bond. But you should be casting these people in your projects. Everybody in this show pulls their weight.

• 13:01Aisha Harris?

  Yeah. Another thing that I really, really liked about this is that, yes, it is also, you know, immigrant parent story. But the family overall is quite supportive of him, especially Tyra, his mother. During the celebrations, there's a moment where she's like, I need you to help me, like, don't leave my side. And you can tell they have this moment.

• 13:22Speaker 05

  Eid is my day. It belongs to all Muslims. Mummy. It's mine. And she took it. You know one thing she doesn't have? What? A son.

• 13:32Aisha Harris?

  Mother, son, they are close. She's like proud of him. She's like, I'm so excited you're gonna be bought. Like, there's just, usually in these stories, we often see the parent, and often the mother, really, like, who is very much like, you should be a doctor, you should be a lawyer, like, the arts, whatever. And we don't see that. We see family that, yes, they have their issues, and a lot of it really does stem from Shah himself, not being able to balance both his own personal career goals with also being a family person. But I, I love seeing that connection between them. We mentioned Patrick Stewart, and, you

• 14:08Aisha Harris?

  know, I enjoy how kind of chaotic that turns into. He is playing sort of Shah's id, like, all of those things.

• 14:18Speaker 04

  You only have yourself to blame.

• 14:21Speaker 05

  I'm trying.

• 14:22Speaker 04

  Try harder. Do you understand?

• 14:25Aisha Harris?

  He's playing sort of like the, the inner self of Shah in a way that I find really fascinating.

• 14:30Speaker 03

  It's Edid.

• 14:32Aisha Harris?

  Oh, yes.

• 14:34Aisha Harris?

  Yes, like, it's, it's a fun voice role. We, we don't actually see him on screen, but like, it's a fun sort of voice role that also is weird, and that weirdness is what helps keep it, you know, fresh. Yeah, I'm even seeing a little bit of Boots Riley in here, right? Like, I just like-

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh, completely.

• 14:50Aisha Harris?

  Boots Riley, Spike Jonze, like, those types of filmmakers who are just kind of quirky, weird, but also providing that social commentary that feels kind of rich and meaty.

• 15:01Speaker 03

  I wanted to really go back to what you said about family members supporting him and so forth, and his mom especially, and I personally felt a little bit like both seen and exposed, because I have a son, my elder son Hudson is an actor, and there's this one line that the mom delivers, when she said it made me just internally clench up and cringe. She says at one point, is work going well? I haven't gotten a Google alert for a long time. And I was like, oh, my God, that's me.

• 15:30Speaker 03

  But the other series that's out right now that actually just got an unexpected second season that this definitely feels like it should be watched alongside is Marvel's Wonder Man, right? In which Yaya Abdul-Mateen too, the protagonist and Ben Kingsley, they have like a really interesting and similar relationship in a lot of ways as like Riz Ahmed and Patrick Stewart. And the whole thing is also this treat is on what it's like to be an actor and narcissistic and hating yourself and loving yourself too much. It's really fascinating.

• 16:04Aisha Harris?

  One thing I did kind of wonder is, did you all have a clear sense on what like, how famous Shah was before this Bond stuff? Cause that was the one thing where I was just like, how famous is he? Cause he's able to sort of like walk in the world. There's a joke at the beginning. It's again, kind of familiar, but it's like he gets mistaken for another actor.

• 16:25Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  He's not Dave Patel. Look how short he is. David's tall, strong, handsome. I'm a Gujarati hero.

• 16:34Aisha Harris?

  And, and it's like, oh yeah, huh, this happens all the time. But I also wasn't sure, like, is he a Callum Turner type of famous? Where it's like maybe famous in the UK, but not that like, was that confusing to you as well? Or did that bother you at all? Cause I, I was just trying to wrap my head around like, how famous is this dude? Like, he has fans. He has like a bobble head, which they reference multiple times. But like, yeah.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I definitely don't think that he is. But again, this is sort of like a tricky thing, right? Because like Riz has an Oscar. He's been nominated for an Oscar, but I don't know how many people on the street would be like, oh, that's Riz Ahmed. Let me talk about his filmography with you.

• 17:19Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  So part of me almost thought like, he's clearly not meant to be as famous as he is in real life, but I did wonder if he is meant to be as famous as some of the other actors in the show, like Hamesh Patel.

• 17:35Aisha Harris?

  Right.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Who is here, playing like his rival. And people might know Hamesh from like Station Eleven, or you might know him from Tenet.

• 17:43Aisha Harris?

  Right.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  But again, I don't know, like, walking through the street, if people would recognize who he is. So that again, sort of felt to me like a meta-commentary on, this show is probably full of brown dudes that you might recognize, but it might like, take you a second to place them.

• 18:00Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Even someone like Gus, like, he is a well-known comedian in the UK. American people probably know him from Taskmaster, but I don't know what else they might know him from. So I don't know, that's a good question, but I, I guess I just took it as, again, part of the show, sort of like, winking at us.

• 18:16Speaker 03

  I feel like, especially when you're talking about Bond, right? Which, I think historically, other than, you know, Pierce Brosnan, they've generally picked actors who were a little bit unexpected, who come off as being like, oh, I've seen that guy before, and other stuff that could be kind of similar, but like, did anybody really know who Daniel Craig was, right?

• 18:37Aisha Harris?

  Sure.

• 18:37Speaker 03

  Before he was cast. And the thing is, when it's a white actor, people just give that elasticity, like, oh, they picked the right guy, or they, you know, we'll watch to see what happens. But if it's somebody who is in that slightly more obscure space, and the person's not white, or not male, or maybe not straight, I'm sure, the reaction, much like in this show, would be just hugely, like, what the hell do they think they're doing?

• 19:00Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 19:00Speaker 03

  So I think the show is definitely playing with that on purpose.

• 19:03Aisha Harris?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Also, Callum is engaged to Dua Lipa, so he has a certain level of

• 19:09Aisha Harris?

  Oh, that's true. I keep forgetting. I, see, this is, this is the thing, like, I'm not a Bond person, and I've seen all of the Daniel Craig ones, and I've seen the earliest ones with Sean Connery, I've skipped all the other ones, I don't really care. I understand that this is a British thing, that, you know, and I'm also very curious to see how this show translates for audiences. I do want to preface for those who maybe are listening and haven't dug in yet, or just, or haven't finished it yet. Bond is kind of in the background. It's not the be all and end all of the show. And again, I think that's what makes, another thing that makes this work is that it's there. It's a catalyst. It's not just about him being a brown person. It's also about like, am I actually meant to play this character? Like, can I, am I a superhero? Like, the British version of the superhero.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  British Batman.

• 19:56Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, British Batman, exactly. Yeah, so I really dug this. I watched it all in one sitting. It goes down very, very easy. Right. Riz has the Riz, as they say. Well, tell us what you think about bait. Find us at facebook.com slash PCHH. And up next, we're going to be talking about what's making us happy this week.

• 20:14Speaker 07

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.

• 20:19Speaker 00

  This week on the NPR Politics Podcast, the midterm elections are wrapping up and millions of people have already voted. We're taking one final check of the electoral pulse with a new NPR PBS News Marist Poll. It shows Democrats still poised to make gains, but also with some warning signs for just how many. We'll explain on the NPR Politics Podcast.

• 20:42Speaker 04

  Oh, Kevin, it feels good to be back.

• 20:44Speaker 07

  It sure does, Casey. And what a time. The world is talking about AI and what's going on in Silicon Valley. And we are here with a new show to tell you all about it.

• 20:53Speaker 04

  That's right, Kevin. On our new show, Machine Gods, twice a week, we'll be bringing you the biggest news in tech and bring you unmatched access to the real titans of this industry.

• 21:01Speaker 07

  You can find Machine Gods from NPR on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 21:07Speaker 04

  The day's top headlines, local stories from your community, your next podcast binge listen. You can have it all in one place, your pocket. Download the NPR app today.

• 21:22Aisha Harris?

  Welcome back. A reminder, if you're not following our show yet, hit that follow button on your preferred podcast app and stay plugged in on all things Pop Culture Happy Hour adjacent, including what's making us happy every week. Which brings me to what is making us happy. I'm going to start with you, Roxana. What is making you happy this week?

• 21:41Speaker 02

  What is making me happy this week is the The upcoming novel by Jordan Harper called A Violent Masterpiece, which comes out in late April. I think I've talked about Jordan's work before, and I think it's because it's what I want out of television about LA, but I'm getting it in novel form. And these are just like really beautifully written, horrendously violent neo noir books that really take me back to, like when I was in middle school, watching The Shield and feeling like I was reading something or watching something super subversive and transgressive and maybe not what I should have been watching at that young of an age.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  But I would heartily recommend them. This one is sort of actually related to Riz Ahmed a little bit in that it is about like a live streaming sort of tabloid style videographer who travels around LA like chasing down crime scenes. So it's about this character and sort of his, I would say, discovery of a Jeffrey Epstein like conspiracy. That is A Violent Masterpiece by Jordan Harper. It's coming out at the end of next month.

• 22:54Aisha Harris?

  All right. Thank you so much, Roxana. Jeff, what is making you happy?

• 22:58Speaker 03

  So I'm hardly alone in this, but I stayed up and very early watched the return of BTS. The boy band that ran the world and they are back. And just seeing them together on stage. And I think very specifically, I'll just say my bias is RM, my favorite of the group. And he hurt himself in rehearsal and was not able to actually do the complicated choreography and dance that BTS is so well known for. And nevertheless, he and the rest of the boys, they just, there's such a breath of freshness and innocence in a world where it feels like we have so little of it.

• 23:40Speaker 03

  And I don't know, for that hour I was watching the reunion concert, I was definitely happy.

• 23:47Aisha Harris?

  Oh, yes, I love that.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  That's sweet. And I love that it is thematically, completely opposed to what's making me happy.

• 23:57Speaker 03

  Takes all kinds.

• 23:58Aisha Harris?

  Well, thank you, Jeff. I love that. It sounds like it made you so happy. That is BTS, The Comeback Live, and that is streaming on Netflix. What is making me happy? So Liza Minnelli has a new memoir out called Kids, Wait Till You Hear This. But that's not what's making me happy, because I haven't read it yet. I'm sure it'll be great. What is making me happy is that it made me return to the great TV concert film from 1972, Liza with a Z. This is just about an hour of Liza being Liza in her prime. And it's directed and choreographed by Bob Fosse, written by Fred Ebb. And it's just her just being Liza.

• 24:40Aisha Harris?

  And if you know Liza Minnelli, and if you enjoy that stuff, it is catnip, it is perfect. There are lots of great songs. She's singing, she's singing by herself, she's got dancers. But for me, the highlight has always been and will always be her performing Joe Tex's song, "I Got Ya."

• 25:07Aisha Harris?

  And the choreography is like, peak Fosse, like herky-jerky. And it's Liza Minnelli doing it. It's both incredibly cool and not at all cool. And I love it. It is what she does best. And that's what's making me happy this week. You can find it streaming on Tubi, Liza with a Z. That brings us to the end of our show, Roxana Hadadi and Jeff Yang. Thank you so much for being here. This was so much fun.

• 25:32Speaker 03

  Always.

• 25:33Aisha Harris?

  Thank you. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Hafsa Fatima, and Mike Katzif, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Halu Kaminsky provides our theme music. And thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all next week.

• 25:52Speaker 07

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.

• 25:56Speaker 04

  I'm Kevin Ruse.

• 25:56Speaker 07

  And I'm Casey Newton.

• 25:57Speaker 04

  And together, we've been tech journalists for decades. Now, we're your hosts of Machine Guts, a new podcast from NPR that makes sense of what AI means for your work, your life, and all of our futures. Twice a week.

• 26:09Speaker 07

  We'll be exploring the biggest moves in tech and give you unmatched access to the real titans of industry. Listen to Machine Gods from NPR on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Here and Now Anytime, in the closing days of the midterm elections, we're in Iowa and Arizona, two states where independent voters will decide who controls Congress for the next two years. Even though we're in a red district, we will get out the Democratic and independent vote. We will. Here and Now Anytime. Listen on the NPR app or anywhere you listen to podcasts.