Bethany Joy Lenz: One Tree Hill & Escaping a Cult (FBF)

Join Alex in the studio for an exclusive interview with Bethany Joy Lenz where she reveals that the whole time the world was watching her on One Tree Hill, she was stuck in an abusive and controlling cult behind the scenes. She shares what led her to this group, what her OTH castmates thought about it, how she escaped, and what it was like starting over again.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 0:45Alex Cooper?

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• 1:30Alex Cooper?

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• 2:13Speaker 01

  What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:22Alex Cooper?

  Bethany Joy Lenz, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:26Alex Cooper?

  Your book Dinner for Vampires comes out this week. Congratulations. How are you feeling?

• 2:31Speaker 01

  I feel proud of it. You know, people often ask me, are you excited? And I'm thinking excited is not the right adjective because I, it's not a story that I was ever really dying to tell. It's not like I thought, oh, this is, this is great material. I just lived through something traumatic and you know, you, you go through therapy and you want to just work through it and in your private life. But that became part of the healing was recognizing how relatable my story was to so many other people who hadn't been in something as dramatic as a cult. And yet somehow I was finding myself in conversations with so many women in particular, but so

• 3:16Speaker 01

  many people who had found themselves in this kind of dynamic relationally. And the more I had that conversation, the more that brought healing to me. And then when the opportunity for writing a book came up, it just felt like this is the right thing to do. It's also what good are our mistakes if we can't? It's honestly one of the things I love about you and listening to your show is that there's this sense of like an open mess. Like, and I, it's, please don't take that the wrong way.

• 3:46Alex Cooper?

  No, I take it in the best way.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  It's actually really wonderful and really comforting to see somebody just living in this space of, I don't know. And, and also, look at this stupid decision I made and look at this weird mistake that I made. And oh, we're not alone.

• 4:01Alex Cooper?

  We're not alone. And I, and I really appreciate you coming today because I think you're right in talking about there is something that you've gone through that maybe at face value to people are like, I cannot relate to being in a cult, but the themes that you experienced throughout this moment in your life are so relatable and are these very tangible experiences that so many women listening are going to be like, yep, yep, yep, I've been there. So we're gonna get into it. Um, I mean, I just have to though say, like, and I was saying it to downstairs, the book is incredible and it's so fascinating because you do talk about your childhood and your relationship with your parents and One Tree Hill. And oh, by the way, for 10 years, you were in this cult. And I think it's important to kind of go back to what led you to this moment.

• 4:45Alex Cooper?

  And then we're gonna kind of go all through it. But let's get into it. How would you? Describe yourself as a kid.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  I was. I had a huge imagination. I was lonely.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  I I had a really. I guess it was kind of like an old soul where I think I always had this sense of.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  This too shall pass. This moment is not. The biggest thing ever. And that helped me a lot in the feeling alone, feeling the solitude.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  I don't know why I seemed to always understand that as a kid, but. Yeah, so so there was this comfort in.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Knowing that there was something bigger out there, another was another day coming. There was hope. And it's okay to just be alone and and I learned to enjoy my own company, which was a huge gift as well.

• 5:48Alex Cooper?

  That is a gift. Why do why? Why would you say you were lonely?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  I was an only child and my parents were wonderful, but very young and doing the best that they could at their age. We had addiction in the family. We had codependence. There was. There were so many dynamics at play. And everybody was just trying to stay afloat. So.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  And we moved a lot, so it was hard to maintain friendships.

• 6:13Alex Cooper?

  When you looked at your parents' relationship growing up, like what did their relationship feel like to you? Was it very loving? Was it toxic? Was it? What was it like?

• 6:24Speaker 01

  It was. It was tense. It was very tense. I think they really loved each other and. As you. As as so many of us discover. That those feelings of love are often fleeting and you have to build on something more and they both. Had a deep connection to their faith and really wanted to build their marriage on that. But. You know, they grew up in that. They they raised me and and they they had come out of that. Eighties movement of evangelicalism. That was so.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  It promised so many things without giving you a foundation of a real relationship moment to moment with God. There was no sense of

• 7:20Speaker 01

  in terms of my experience with that movement which I grew up in, there wasn't a lot of space to BMS and to make mistakes and to just like figure it out day by day. It was a lot of here are the rules that you need to live by. And when you accomplish all these rules, then you will be happy. And they believed it as well and then discovered, oh, following all the rules all the time isn't actually working. And then the marriage became really tense because of that and other factors.

• 7:49Alex Cooper?

  How do you think your, like, watching your parents' dynamic like shaped your view on like love and marriage?

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Wow, what a great question.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Damn, I didn't know I was going to therapy today, Alex.

• 8:04Alex Cooper?

  I wore my glasses for you.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Okay. My, I think that

• 8:13Speaker 01

  I think that it it became an unsafe place emotionally because I I didn't know what they were dealing with. You're too young to understand the the inner dynamics of a grown relationship. And so it became a mystery to me and it was like, I don't want I don't want this dynamic, the the sort of one person's really calm, one person's really hyper, and they're constantly at each other's throats and there's so many problems and it just was like, this is they're figuring so much out, I better just kind of raise myself.

• 8:47Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  And then then going into later in my life as I started, I got so boy crazy because then you're looking for something to fill those holes. And

• 8:58Speaker 01

  I don't know what it did to my view of relationships, other than to know that I didn't really have anything modeled for me that I could look at and be like, that's what I want. How do I do it? So I probably spent a lot of time fishing for answers in all the wrong places. I mean, clearly.

• 9:16Alex Cooper?

  But it is helpful to hear you just kind of like, talk about the foundation of what you were like, living in this house and just watching your parents and knowing you wanted something different, but not knowing exactly what it was, because I think, understanding that is important to what we're about to talk about.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:33Alex Cooper?

  And how you got to where you got to.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just, I wanted a place to belong. It was really hard to feel like I belonged anywhere, except the theater.

• 9:40Alex Cooper?

  Yep.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Which was, you know, that's why I went into that field. But, yeah, there was a lot of that, there was a lot of, um, my parents trying to protect me and, which ended up being gaslighting without them knowing it. A lot of, uh, hey, what's going on? Is everything okay? And I met with, yeah, everything's fine. And, which a lot of us do with our kids, right? You want to protect your kids.

• 10:01Alex Cooper?

  Right, right.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  So, it's so natural to go, no, no, everything's fine, everything's okay. And you don't realize, you're denying the child's reality. You're not acknowledging, yeah, something's wrong, we're not having a good day, but it will be okay.

• 10:14Alex Cooper?

  Right, you're constantly trying to understand, you can feel it. Like, you know when something's off. Like, kids are so intuitive. And then you're asking your parents, like, please let me in on what's happening in our family dynamic, and them not allowing you to know, that also probably like, created a false sense of reality of like, you're then having to like, finish the sentence for yourself. Cause like, I know it's not okay, but they won't tell me, so I guess I'll just, again, be alone, go into my room, and create whatever my narrative is gonna be for myself, because that's all you can do.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and actually, what it did was, oh, I must be wrong. Like, I feel that something's wrong, I feel like something's off, I can feel that in my gut, but everyone is telling me that everything's okay. So my gut must be off. So when you start at a young age to believe my gut is off, I can't trust myself. I can't trust my own instincts. It makes it a lot easier when you get older for people to take advantage of you.

• 11:10Alex Cooper?

  Let's talk about the Big House Family Cult. So you were in your early twenties, then you moved to LA, you're pursuing acting. How did you end up meeting this group?

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was in LA, I went with a, I went with a girlfriend to, um, to her Saturday night Bible study that she was going to. It was very benign. It was, it was the same kind of Bible study I'd been going to, having been raised in, in the Western evangelical church. It was super common, Wednesday night, Saturday night meetings, you just show up and it's like an addition to church. It's a way of sort of keeping the church going beyond Sunday. And, uh, there's music and food and everybody talks and gets vulnerable and it felt very, very normal to me.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  So, yeah, at first it was just nothing to be suspicious about.

• 12:02Alex Cooper?

  And what were you feeling like you were wanting? Cause once your friend brought you, then you kept going and you're like, what were you looking for when you were kind of like starting to join this group?

• 12:14Speaker 01

  I was looking for a place to belong still. I think that was the constant search. Where do I fit? Where do I belong? And I had moved here, I'd lived in New York before then and I loved New York. It felt like home, I was, you know, in Jersey for eight years and then Manhattan and, and I felt like a New Yorker and I loved the creativity there and the pulse. And it just felt so great. And moving to LA, everything's really spread out and community was harder to find. So I, I was in need of community.

• 12:41Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, which I think is a really normal thing. I have so many women write in to me being like, I moved to a new city, I don't know how to make friends. And I think a huge thing that people look for are groups to join, like, can I join?

• 12:54Speaker 01

  SoulCycle?

• 12:55Alex Cooper?

  Right, like we're going biking, whatever it is, like you're trying to find a community that you can feel a part of something.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Your tribe.

• 13:02Alex Cooper?

  Yes, and that is normal. You write about when things really started to go downhill was a man named Les entered the picture for this group. And he kind of started to take control of the group that you were seemingly already a part of.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:16Alex Cooper?

  Um, what was your first impression of him?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  My first impression was, um, that he was just kind of a...

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Jolly guy. I mean, I didn't think much of him. I met him across a room and he was

• 13:34Speaker 01

  just another face that I was meeting in LA.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  His whole family was with him when we met and I

• 13:43Speaker 01

  I do remember having this like check in my gut and I thought it was because I

• 13:53Speaker 01

  all right, I'll be really honest.

• 13:54Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  I thought it was because I didn't like their faces. Have you ever met someone where you're just like, I don't like your face?

• 14:01Alex Cooper?

  Right. Cause you're kind of like, I don't know if I trust you or something about it.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then you're like, what an asshole I am. Like somebody's face? Like fuck off.

• 14:08Alex Cooper?

  But I get what you're saying. There's just something about it. You're like, huh?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, and the whole family, I just, there was something about me that was like, I don't like their faces. And then, and then I felt terrible and I was like judging myself, you know, you know, Joy, what an asshole you are. And so that was my first impression was just, here's a family of people I'd never met. They're friends with my friends. I don't like their faces and I'm, I'm a jerk for that and I'm going to get over it and let's get to know each other.

• 14:35Alex Cooper?

  I love the honesty. You're like something at first. Meanwhile, it's like you had that gut feeling, but again, from a young age, you were kind of taught your gut is wrong.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:45Alex Cooper?

  So don't think that there's anything wrong with this person. You're fine, Joy. Keep going.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it couldn't be my gut. It has to be something else. What is it? Uh, faces.

• 14:54Alex Cooper?

  Yes. Right. Right. So once less kind of took over, can you describe to me how in the beginning, just like a dynamic shift? Like what changed when this man kind of came into the picture?

• 15:07Speaker 01

  It, it, it started moving from something that felt very communal and very all participatory, like everyone was participating.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  And it it takes time, like it he couldn't have just come in and changed it overnight. You know, there were, there was a slow transition. It took about a year. Now that I've been in retrospect, I'm able to look back at it. And it was slow. He started spending more time with us. He started investing in the lives of the group members and the people who were there. I mean, group members. I guess it was just the friends that were gathering. And started to lead the meetings and he was a pastor without a church at the time. Which I found out later why, you have to read the book to find out.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  And so it felt like, oh, wow, what, what an amazing opportunity we have to give this sweet pastor without a church, a forum to speak and to share the things that are on his heart. And it felt encouraging and felt like I was being challenged and called up to be more than I was currently living in spiritually, emotionally, mentally. And that was exciting.

• 16:29Alex Cooper?

  I think it's important to like, as we're going through this journey, and obviously there's so many more details in the book, but I, I really appreciate you clarifying that it's like this, there was not a moment someone walked through the doors and it's like, this is how we're gonna do things now because every human being in that establishment would have been like, this feels icky and weird. It's just like when we see in abusive relationships where people that are manipulative are very good at knowing it is a slow burn. So you don't notice it immediately. It's just this slow moment that all of a sudden you wake up one day, be like, wait, how did this? How did this happen? And so

• 17:06Speaker 01

  They're patient.

• 17:07Alex Cooper?

  Hearing a year of this person just kind of coming in and slowly getting closer to everyone and like settling down roots and making you trust this person was the beginning days.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:18Alex Cooper?

  Something you wrote about in the book, and this was kind of when things started to get more intense, is you write about how you were told that independence created an internal rebellion against God. Can you explain what this meant and how this like impacted your life and this like view?

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are so many things in the book that I hope for people who grew up in this faith, hopefully it'll be a little easier for them to spot the healthy versus unhealthy versions of things, which I think in so many realms, there are healthy and unhealthy versions. The unhealthy version of that is

• 18:04Speaker 01

  independence is bad, therefore, anything that separates you from the unity with the group, or translate it to an abusive relationship, the person that you're with, translate it to a work environment, your work community,

• 18:24Speaker 01

  anything that's inhibiting your ability to cast off yourself and serve other people in favor of yourself, that's problematic, and that needs to be addressed and shut down. Does that make sense?

• 18:40Alex Cooper?

  It makes so much sense, and I appreciate you kind of showing the different ways it can show up, not just, again, like in a group setting, but like in a relationship or work. Like, I think everyone listening, Daddy Gang, like, we've all been there where you start to feel like your independence is either being threatened, or you find yourself getting too wrapped up in something, and then we all have that moment, we pray, that we're like, "Wait, I was losing myself." Like, we've all said that at some point in our life, but how far did you go before you realized you lost yourself? Everyone has a different experience, and there's a different barometer, and I get what you're talking about here, is like, you are being preached, like, "Stop living this independent life, rely on us, the group."

• 19:24Speaker 01

  And you believe it, I believed it,

• 19:29Speaker 01

  because...

• 19:31Speaker 01

  It felt like, yeah, I don't want to be out here floating alone, doing everything on my own. I have blind spots. I mean, do you have blind spots? We all have blind spots. That's a reasonable thing for someone to say to you. So, okay, I've got blind spots. Well, I need community. I need people to help me see what my blind spots are. So if I live in in super independence, then I'm not allowing people in. So I have to live in this place where I I trust other people to see things for me that I can't see. The problem is, of course, if you are allowing the wrong people or person to speak into your life in that way, then they can just wreak havoc and say and do whatever they want. And so it's a very fine line.

• 20:13Alex Cooper?

  And you think, Joy, like, that's why I'm happy you wrote so much about your childhood in the book and what we lightly talked about in the beginning of like, you referenced this loneliness that you felt as a child. And I think anyone that you can be so independent, that's so different than being lonely. And I think when you experience loneliness, we've all experienced it, again, to what degree? Everyone has their own situation, but like, you crave, we all crave human connection and we crave feeling a part of something. So having that been so integral to your childhood of feeling alone and being an only child, I can understand you like seeking out this feeling of like, safety and comfort and people that care about you and are bringing you in.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:55Alex Cooper?

  Um, the cult though, and how we talk about, we started with the independence, they used a lot of very like loaded language that you came to learn, like bio family. What did that term mean, Joy?

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Bio family. That's the part where everybody runs out the door.

• 21:13Alex Cooper?

  Right? Like, that's where I lose you guys in the story.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. It was it was far into the story by then. We we were so, and I think what I wrote was that he didn't have to be subtle. This less character didn't have to be subtle about it anymore. He could just start saying things like, Biofamili. Biofamili meant the family you were born into, but was not necessarily the family that you may have been called to be a part of, called spiritually into.

• 21:41Alex Cooper?

  I do think a lot of people are more progressive now to be like, I can choose my family.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:45Alex Cooper?

  So like, I understand the concept. But I get what you're saying now. It's like, it was a whole different level of manipulation that was going on.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  That's the thing. You understand the concept.

• 21:57Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Yes. So many of us do. It's, it's the, it's a pain to go be with my family for the holidays because of all the, I'm not saying me, but so many of us say that. And, and I want to go to vacation with my friends because that's my family. Hey fam, hey chosen fam. You hear it in church all the time. What's up, family? We're a tribe. And what's, what's so insidious about it is that when someone uses something like that to say, actually, we're separating you. It's not just a, it's, it's not just an extra club that you're a part of.

• 22:35Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  It's actually creating that suppressive person is another term. You know, that, that space of like, you are separate. You are other. We are here. This is real family and that is biofamili.

• 22:51Alex Cooper?

  And now let's talk about that because that is again now where like that differentiation is important. It's not just like, we're another extended family. Can you talk to me about how they encouraged you to distance yourself from your parents?

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's slow, man. Like it doesn't, again, yeah, I've said this quote a couple of times. Mark Vincente, who was in NXIVM, he has this great quote in The Vow. He's in the kitchen. He's like, nobody joins a cult. You join a good thing. Nobody walks into something and says, hey, I can't wait to fuck up my life. Like, where do I sign? So it happens really slowly and.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  They, there were things like, um, small comments dropped, a lot of things like, hey, how was your time with your mom? Well, oh, I was fine, you know, like usual, well, whatever. Yeah, I'm sorry, it's, that's tough to not have a, a great relationship with your mom. Yeah, it's okay. I mean, she's my mom. Yeah, but you know, don't forget, like, we're your family. We're here for you and just, she's just on a different, on a different path and she's on a different way. Okay. So that's the easy one, right? Like, that's the first, like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see her. I can be, have space for her. And then it's like, well, well, did you talk to your mom about that? Yeah, I shared it with her. Hmm.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  That just might, just be careful, you know, because you're just spiritually in a different place than her and she may not be able to understand and I would just hate for her to be sowing things into you that are not the truth of your identity. And you know, generations are powerful and, uh, so just, just be careful. Oh gosh, I, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, okay. And then that's the little seed and then, and then the next one is, um, yeah, I, I like your mom. She's, you know, she's really sweet, but, um, yeah, she just really doesn't understand you and I just want to encourage you, you know, she, she doesn't understand boundaries, Joy. So just please make sure that you're protecting your boundaries and you don't need to call her back if you're not ready to.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  You don't need to, you don't need to, just because she's demanding something doesn't mean you have to give it to her. All things that sound reasonable in the right context.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  But you, it, it, that's why it takes time because it's not just something you can say to somebody. It has, you have to gain their trust. You have to, I had to, to believe so many other good things. I had to see mornings, mornings with coffee, uh, sitting on the front porch, talking about philosophy. I had to see parenting moments. I had to see so many things that built these, this illusion of trust.

• 25:34Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  That when someone who is a narcissist sews those things into you then, not to use Christianese or weird terms, but I, whatever, we all say these things. So, so I still second guess myself all the time, as you can see. But, um,

• 25:52Speaker 01

  It it's so much more believable.

• 25:53Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, no, and I I appreciate you kind of sharing that gradual conversation because then I can imagine it just kept going to the point of complete isolation from your family of I I don't know if I don't want to put words in your mouth, but then it can get, once you fully have their trust, it's like, Joy, you know you're better than that. You should not be speaking to your mother because you know she's going to bring you down. And then it's and again, I think everyone, if we pause, has those moments with their friends, right? Where it's like, you know, your friend needs to break up with their boyfriend. Let's just pretend, okay? We're gonna use a really simple, simple conversation here, Daddy Gang. You know, if you go to your friend and be like, your boyfriend is a dick. He is definitely cheating on you. You need to leave him.

• 26:35Alex Cooper?

  Your friend is gonna be like, ah, ah, no, like, if if anything, F you and walking up your

• 26:40Speaker 01

  You're not in this relationship. You don't see what he's like at three in the morning, so sweet, blah, blah, blah.

• 26:45Alex Cooper?

  Yes, but if you, we all have that ability and it's and it can be manipulative or not manipulative. But I believe with friendships, it's like you know, you have to be gradual and easy with those friends. You'd be like, hey, how are you feeling? Then they open up to you, then the next come, because you know, you can't, you don't want your friend to shut off. And you know, she won't listen to you unless you like lightly, just give her the space to talk. And then one day she may be like, well, what do you think? And then you open up to be like, I think you deserve better. I love you so much. I'm here no matter. It's it's a natural human being thing that can be good. But what you're describing, there was no good behind it because this person, the intent was to isolate you. Where what the example I'm giving is it can look the same from outside, but it's really like, no, you want your friend to have the best.

• 27:28Alex Cooper?

  But you're also recognizing human beings, if you walk in a room and you say, do this, they're like, what's wrong with you? It's the gradualness that allows people to get into a position where you trust someone. And then hopefully that person is not a manipulative psycho to be manipulating you in a way that is like going to fuck up your life.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:48Alex Cooper?

  And we trust, I think, as human beings, that's natural to be like, wow, I've seen you be such a great person in front of me. Why wouldn't I trust this person?

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Yes, why wouldn't we? I mean, sorry, I'm going on a rant, but I'm like, no, it's great because who wants to go through the world mistrusting everyone? That's that's not a happy way to live.

• 28:03Alex Cooper?

  Did your parents ever come to you with concern about this group?

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Um, my, my dad has, was was much more forceful and open about it and.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  He's a very smart man. He's incredibly educated man.

• 28:22Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  So he had done so much research and he had, he grew up in the seventies. I mean, talk about cults. Like they were everywhere in the seventies.

• 28:28Alex Cooper?

  I think I know this.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So he definitely was, he came to visit once and um, you know, he was like, this feels weird, but I guess he told my mom, like, no, I think this is a cult. This is bad news. But he was much more open with me about it. My mom was really smart and knew how to play the long game. So she just kind of waited and watched. And the more that I communicated about that with Les and the other people in leadership in this group, the easier it was for them to see where my allegiances lay, lie.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  And uh, there was a meeting when they, they actually explicitly just told me like, you really should just cut your dad out. Like you should stop talking to him. He's toxic.

• 29:20Alex Cooper?

  And how did you react when you would hear that?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  By that point, I was several years in and the, I just trusted them more than I trusted my parents.

• 29:29Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  So I, I, I heard it. I didn't, I did not do it then. But it did plant a seed of the people who I have trusted to see my blind spots

• 29:45Speaker 01

  are telling me that this is what's best for me. And every time I talk to my dad, he's telling me I'm in a cult and he's worried about me. And it's starting to wear on me. And eventually, once I got married, it was easy to sort of pass the buck to my ex-husband, or my husband at the time, and let him deal with it. And then he just kind of completely shut the door and, and I didn't talk to my dad for six years. Yeah, it was awful.

• 30:10Alex Cooper?

  To condition you from doubting the group, you write about how they got control and they would use phrases like illegal questions. Can you give me an example of an illegal question?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Sure. An illegal question would be.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Maybe I married the wrong person.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  You're not allowed to ask that question because you are already married. It's done. There's no, there's no questioning. You just move forward. That's a big one.

• 30:44Alex Cooper?

  Wow. I'm like, oh my God. Where do we go from there? Shit, Joy.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm trying to think of some other ones. You know, other legal questions would be more like,

• 30:55Speaker 01

  that I'm thinking off right off the top of my head is, are more spiritually related.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Did God call me to be a part of this family? Did, am I, did I do the right thing by moving up here instead of staying in LA?

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Should I have taken this, this acting job? The questions that are retrospective, I guess. I haven't thought of it in that term, but yeah, it's, it's illegal questions are things that would cause you to call into question things that you've already chosen.

• 31:29Alex Cooper?

  You can't have doubt about anything essentially in your life.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, you really can't. Which is so, it was so damaging. Getting out of it and being on the other side of that, to not be allowed to question where you are in your life. How could you ever grow? Well, that's the point really, right? Like if you're in a group like that, they don't want you to grow.

• 31:50Alex Cooper?

  They don't want you to grow. They don't want you to think for yourself, but I can imagine that creates this like numbness in you where you just start to get good at being like, almost about to ask yourself the question, nope, don't ask because that, I shouldn't do that. And then you, once you create a pattern within yourself, it's hard to revert that pattern.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:09Alex Cooper?

  Okay, we need to talk about One Tree Hill.

• 32:28Alex Cooper?

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• 33:13Alex Cooper?

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• 33:53Alex Cooper?

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• 34:30Alex Cooper?

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• 35:13Alex Cooper?

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• 35:59Alex Cooper?

  Head to Shopify.com/daddy. That's Shopify.com/daddy. Okay, we need to talk about One Tree Hill because I think what's so fascinating about this story is the world was watching you on one of the biggest shows on television, still to this day is so beloved. I re-watch it any chance I get. I love that you watched it. You don't even know. Like, I am obsessed. Like, I could just... Pop episode one on again and let's rewatch the whole thing. Such a fan, but again, it is so interesting and it is really the proof of like, we don't know what people are going through.

• 36:40Alex Cooper?

  And we see these celebrities or actors or singers or whoever public facing and you think you know their life. And while you were on this huge TV show, you were also dealing with this hell. Can you take me to like, what drew you to One Tree Hill? Like you're in this cult at the time that you go to get this job, right?

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:59Alex Cooper?

  Okay, talk to me. What drew you to One Tree Hill at this time?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  I, I was, um, well, they actually shot the pilot without me. They shot it with somebody else. I had gotten the script for it. I, it was called Ravens at the time. I turned it down. I really wanted to just focus on film and, um, and I just said, I, this is, I just got off a soap opera in New York. I want to try something different. So I turned it down, um, a couple of grounded pilots later, it came back around and they said they're recasting. They're shooting in two weeks and will you please go screen test for this role? So I did.

• 37:33Alex Cooper?

  Love. Um, how involved? Cause I think again, when I just want to like clarify, like when people are listening to this and like, hold on, wait. So you're in a cult, but you're still allowed to work. Like, I think people may get confused of like how attached you need to be at the time. Like, oh, you're allowed to go and work and be without these people.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Oh, right.

• 37:50Alex Cooper?

  Do you know what I mean? Like, can you explain how involved they were in your decision to take the show? And like, how did that work at the time?

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great point. Um, yeah, that's one of the things that also made it so insidious is that it wasn't a, join us, put on this robe and let's go all live in the forest together.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, there, there was still a lot of autonomy. I think that's sort of how he kept everybody locked in because we were all really smart. Like, it just wasn't a group of, of people who were not smart. Like everyone was ambitious and had careers. And so he had to have known coming in that this is not going to work if I try and ask everybody to just, move up north and be, live with me in this weird little house. Big house.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it, it was very much, um, communication based on.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Daily activities, hanging out, lunches, lots of phone calls and email chains and texting wasn't as much of a thing back then, but we were in constant community and communication with each other. So it didn't feel like, I mean, I don't know that he had to work that hard in that regard because he, meaning Les.

• 39:13Alex Cooper?

  Yep.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Daddy gang. I always wanted to say that.

• 39:17Alex Cooper?

  Daddy gang?

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Daddy gang?

• 39:20Alex Cooper?

  It's your moment.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  It's my moment.

• 39:22Alex Cooper?

  Get it, girl.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, so I think that was, it's not like the traditional cult when you think of that. We're not all living on a commune. I mean, there was a big house that several people all lived in at once, but they were also their own families with jobs and other things going on that they all lived nearby. Yeah, does that, does that make sense?

• 39:48Alex Cooper?

  That makes complete sense. I completely understand. It's like there's someone constantly in communication with you. And so if anything, like when you're starting a new job, everyone feels like, oh, I have no friends here. You had this safety net and this support system that was ever present. So it didn't make you ever feel like you were alone, which is huge to have, especially when you're going on new ventures in your career and feeling like, oh, I'm a little out of place. You're kind of never out of place because you have this support system.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:17Alex Cooper?

  You played Haley James Scott.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:20Alex Cooper?

  In what ways did you relate to your character?

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Initially, I really related with this sort of awkward girl next door thing. That felt very comfortable for me. It felt like who I really was deep down and wasn't ever allowed to be because a lot of the roles I would get, you know, I was blonde and I had a big personality. And so I would get a lot of the, these sort of leading lady parts or, you know, ingenue parts. But I always felt like, I even say in the book, I was like, I feel like a dumpster, like trash panda, like cleaning dumpster lettuce out of my paws. Like I've always just felt awkward and. Like weird. And so it was fun to be able to step into this character that felt actually

• 41:06Speaker 01

  so much more like me than what I was usually getting cast for. So that was fun.

• 41:10Alex Cooper?

  If you had to say, what do you think was the most iconic Haley James Scott moment? I know, that's so hard. Give us one.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Okay. I mean, the most iconic Haley moment, it's hard because so many of them were with James Lafferty.

• 41:28Alex Cooper?

  I know.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  You know, that kiss in the rain when Nathan and Haley first finally get together. And they just like, they just have that kiss in the rain and that hose with holes in it and freezing cold water was pouring down on us. It was so fun.

• 41:46Alex Cooper?

  Like, the reality was, everyone you thought it looked like rain.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  And James and I had never kissed before and he was, you know, 17 and I was cradle robbing at that point. And, you know, it was just awkward. You're smashing teeth and trying to, you know, you're young kids, just like, how do we kiss each other on camera?

• 42:04Alex Cooper?

  I'm obsessed.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  It was fun.

• 42:07Alex Cooper?

  It was one of the most iconic scenes. And I feel like I do think of that when I think of you guys. So that was a good one. What is your favorite memory just from the show?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  There are a lot, but there are not as many as I wish there were because at some point I kind of just checked out emotionally. But I would say, early on, we, there were always hurricane warnings and hurricane, and actual hurricanes that came through. And when it wasn't too bad, but it was enough that they were like, hey, everybody, just go inside for a little while. We would often stay at somebody's house and the electricity would go out and you'd light candles and sit around and hang out and meet at the Waffle House and be like, well, we got the next four hours at the Waffle House. Somebody bring a deck of cards and, you know, hopefully the burners won't go out and we can keep eating waffles. That was

• 42:58Speaker 01

  fun. That was early days of bonding when it was getting to know each other, trying to figure out who was who, who fit where. And yeah, I really loved that.

• 43:09Alex Cooper?

  It makes my heart break for you that you, you know, just said, like, there were not as many as I wish I had because obviously you did this show for so long. And you write about in the book how while you were filming. The leaders of this cult that you were a part of told you not to trust your co-stars and to essentially stay away from them.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:31Alex Cooper?

  Um, how did isolating yourself affect your dynamic on set?

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Well, I think I just became

• 43:45Speaker 01

  someone that nobody really knew how to connect with.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  When the cameras were rolling, my guard all went down. I was a hundred percent present. I was there. It was a major catharsis for me, actually, the ability to

• 44:03Speaker 01

  just be completely free and vulnerable.

• 44:06Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  So I, that's one of the reasons why I loved being on the show and why I feel like it saved my life in a lot of ways because it was kind of the only place in my life I could actually do that.

• 44:15Alex Cooper?

  Yep.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  But when they said cut and it, we went back to just sitting in our cast chairs waiting, um, I, I would only let people in so far. And I think, again, people in abusive relationships can relate to that too, because you, there's too much at stake.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  If you allow in someone else's

• 44:39Speaker 01

  perception, judgment, ideas about your relationship or the relationships that you're a part of in your life. So whether it's a group of people or one person,

• 44:52Speaker 01

  a lot of people who are in abusive situations will hide the abuse because

• 44:59Speaker 01

  I, like, I don't know why I'm living in this misery, but I don't want your opinion about why I'm living in this misery, because then I'll have to maybe really deal with it in a different way.

• 45:09Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, it's almost like you kind of, you're so, oh, you are aware that something is off and weird, but you're so in, in, like, immersed in that world.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Like protective almost.

• 45:23Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, that it's kind of like you, you know that people wouldn't fully understand the extent of it. So it's not worth letting them in at all.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:32Alex Cooper?

  But I wonder, like, on that set with all these, like, young people, like, Did you have moments as much as you were like really being manipulated by this cult? Like, did you have moments where you're like, fuck, like, what, what am I doing? Like, or where you still couldn't really see it at that point?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  I couldn't see, what am I doing? I, I felt mostly superior to other people.

• 45:58Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  And I felt mostly like they just can't understand. And I've got an answer. I've, I've figured, I mean, that's

• 46:06Alex Cooper?

  Yep.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Any cult, that's the idea is we've got something special that you don't have. Unfortunately, that really colored a lot of my relationships with people. But the thing is, your gut never goes away. I don't think.

• 46:23Alex Cooper?

  I don't think so either.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  So I still felt this sense of self-loathing and like, it's an unending ladder that you're just constantly trying to climb to achieve, to do the things that are gonna save you, or whatever you're trying to, whatever enlightenment you're, level you're trying to reach.

• 46:40Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  And I was so in that zone that, uh, everything I did was, every interaction I had was, was colored by that. And I did, at the same time, because I had this sort of self-loathing, I also really, uh, I guess I maybe was jealous of other people on the show too. Not, not the way that women are jealous of each other in a cliche way, but more of the freedom to be a mess. The freedom to just explore life and ask questions that weren't illegal.

• 47:14Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  And just the freedom to like, live your life.

• 47:18Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  I was jealous of the, of the freedom to live life. And, and I, but I was so committed to my belief system that I would never allow myself to cross over into that. And I think it just created a, a difficult dynamic for having a relationship. Like, a joy just has a, you can only go so far. There's a, there's a wall.

• 47:39Alex Cooper?

  When, now, when you look back, like, if you were honest with yourself, because you can now see it in a different way, like, what do you think they all thought of you?

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think they thought that I was stubborn and, uh, weird and in a cult.

• 47:58Alex Cooper?

  I mean, so.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Eventually, yeah. Stop. Joy. No, they knew, they knew, they knew because I think they probably felt really bad for me. How soon did you think they knew? Give us by season. Two years. Season two? So, yeah, I would say by season two, they were like, I think this is like a cult. I think this is probably bad. Did anyone ever try to say anything to you? Well, I did have one really good friend who was a, she was one of the set PAs and I trusted her so much. I think honestly, because she was Catholic and she was the only religious person on set. And so I was like, another religious person.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  So you may not be as far along spiritually as I am, however. You're like, do you want me to introduce you to less? I've got a great guy for you. Stop, it's so dark. But I did trust her and she and her husband were wonderful people. And my husband at the time and I used to hang out with them all the time and we'd go over to their house for wine nights. And it was like a safe haven. And so she definitely tried in, she again was like my mother, very smart, long game. Like knew I was involved in something unhealthy and just wanted to slowly present questions. But she knew she couldn't push too hard or I'd push her away.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Really, really good friend and I so appreciate that. But nobody else on the show.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  No, nobody ever, I mean, Tyler once just flat out came out and was like, are you in a cult? No, stop, stop. I love him so much. Stop. That should tell you so much about his personality. He's so great. And when someone would say that to you, like, what did you say? No, I was like, no, I hate that people can't understand.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  The depth of relationship that happens when you find your chosen family and you just commit to them. Why does it have to be a cult? Why does it have to be weird? Like, I feel so bad for you that you don't understand what it's like to have this kind of depth of relationship. How sad and shallow must your life be?

• 50:09Alex Cooper?

  Oh my God, you doing that even now, Joy? I'm like, oh my God, I feel like shit. But I could see how people around you then would just like roll their eyes and be like, okay, I'm literally walking back on set. Like, there's no point. So you can, and, and you have, again, we have all been there when someone genuinely believes something so deep to their core. There is no point to try to change that. Everyone is on their own path and journey, and you gotta let people figure it out on their own through their own time. It doesn't mean they didn't care, but I can imagine it's like, what are we all gonna do? Have an intervention? Like, we're here to do a job. She's nice when she's around us. That's all we care about, you know?

• 50:45Speaker 01

  That's it. It just became a professional environment. And they did, I know Paul Johansson and probably Greg Pranger, executive producer, and a couple other people had a meeting at one point, like, let, let's talk about this. Do we need to be worried about her? You know, is she, financially, this looks bad? Is she in danger? Like, what do we need to do? But I think, at the end of the day, they realized exactly what you just said. And nobody can wake you up, but you. Like, at some point, it's just the right time.

• 51:16Alex Cooper?

  You write about how, at the time, you couldn't be friends with Sophia Bush because of your own insecurities and militant beliefs. What was it about Sophia that made you uncomfortable?

• 51:29Speaker 01

  I, I think we were both approaching life from a similar way, but from opposite perspectives. So the motive, I think, was similar in she, she, I, I didn't, I'm not her, I didn't grow up as her, but I, I think she grew up with some very specific beliefs about life and how things should be done. And, and, and pursued that. And that can also be really wonderful. But the way that we were approaching it maybe was too similar. And because the, the conclusions that we had come to about life and God and all those things were very different.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  There just was no space for listening. She would have been much more quick to listen to my perspective and hear me than I would have been at the time.

• 52:23Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  But I think fundamentally, there was probably a similarity.

• 52:26Alex Cooper?

  I mean, I think for a while, Brooke Davis and Haley didn't get along on set anyways, or on the screen.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  On the show, yeah.

• 52:35Alex Cooper?

  So it kind of worked, but like, was it difficult on set where you're just like not getting completely along with someone? But like, you don't know how to handle it and you're young?

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, those were, those days were hard because I, it was this sort of, and I think I wrote about this too, I know I did, the paralysis and desire, the feeling of like, I want to connect with you. I want to be friends with you. Why can't we? Why don't you know how? Why don't I know how? What is wrong? And yet we have to show up and pretend like we're really close. And so we're going through the motions of close friendship, but not actually knowing how to connect.

• 53:15Alex Cooper?

  It's hard.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  It's hard.

• 53:16Alex Cooper?

  It's really hard.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  I mean, I think you could feel that in romantic relationships too, where you know you love someone, you know you have all these things in common. You just like, why are we not, what's going on?

• 53:27Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, why is it not working?

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:28Alex Cooper?

  That's very relatable.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Especially when you're that young and you have so many other friends and so many other things. At some point, you're just like, ah, I don't know.

• 53:33Alex Cooper?

  Yes, yeah. Like, all good. Let's just leave it at what it is.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:37Alex Cooper?

  Um, have you guys talked about that and like, just kind of gone through everything that happened back then in the day or?

• 53:46Speaker 01

  A little bit, not, not as much as I would like.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  And on Drama Queens, we've definitely talked a lot about our time back then and what was hard and how great it was to reconnect and the feelings of unraveling things that were so mysterious to us at the time. But no, it's, it's an ever-evolving journey. There are still plenty of people in my life that I Man, shame is a tough thing. Like, I one of the reasons why I really feel passionate about telling this story now, whereas before I was so reluctant at first, but I think shame gets smaller and smaller the more you expose it and the more you just open up and say this, this is my mess like

• 54:32Speaker 01

  but

• 54:34Speaker 01

  even having conversations with my stepsister or like my little brother and having those moments of like, hey, I disappeared for 10 years and I'm really sorry. Like, I don't

• 54:50Speaker 01

  I've had those moments very briefly, but it's painful because it's shame, you know?

• 54:56Alex Cooper?

  I can't imagine, Joy, honestly, like, and I appreciate you talking about that because I feel like, again, back to an abusive relationship, like it takes so long for someone to just even like get back to you can't even get back to who you were because you were so young. So it's like, who am I without this abusive situation that I was in for so long. And I think like the repairing of the relationships, from what I understand from a lot of people that went through a long abusive situation is like, it's almost just this huge heavy thing that you know is sitting in the corner, but you're like, fuck, but first I gotta make sure I'm really good.

• 55:37Alex Cooper?

  Because then I, I first have to make sure I'm good. So then I can begin to rebuild these relationships. Because if I'm still not good, then it's like, what is the use of reaching out and having these difficult conversations? On top of that, the difficult conversations, you do kind of have to acknowledge what happened and it's again, and it's again, and it's again, and it's like taking accountability and also like asking for grace and understanding. And it's like, there's no right way to get back into a relationship with someone after being a different person in the relationship. And it's like, it's a lot. I have a lot of empathy for you.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Thank you. I, I, you're, you're speaking so eloquently about it and I, it's really interesting to talk with you because I feel like even just hearing the way that you're phrasing things puts things in perspective for me that, you know, I lived it. It's all in my brain in a jumble, but

• 56:28Speaker 01

  as much as I was able to put on paper. My thoughts, there's still so many things that are tangled that I still try and unwind. But what you were just saying about needing to feel like I'm, I'm good, I'm okay before I go reach out. For me,

• 56:46Speaker 01

  that was more isolating. Like I needed to connect with people. And not even necessarily in a, in a way of like, hey, clean me up. You know, that was, obviously I have to do my own work, but

• 57:03Speaker 01

  experiencing the grace that you just said and that the forgiveness and the

• 57:10Speaker 01

  looking across at somebody who's just like, I made mistakes too. And it's okay. Like, we're all doing that. That's welcome to being a human being. Hello. Good morning.

• 57:20Alex Cooper?

  I think, I think that's the biggest moment that a lot of people in abusive situations have this moment where they're like, whoa, I thought everyone was gonna just like, never forgive me and turn their backs.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:31Alex Cooper?

  And everyone's like, babe, we've been waiting for you.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:34Alex Cooper?

  Like, we love you.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 57:36Alex Cooper?

  Welcome back.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:37Alex Cooper?

  And I think it's like,

• 57:38Speaker 01

  It's humbling.

• 57:39Alex Cooper?

  Because again, when you're in the abusive situation, the abuser makes you feel like none of them love you. They will be, they will not be there if you leave me. I'm the only thing you have.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:50Alex Cooper?

  And so you believe that. And then the minute you leave, everyone's like, oh my God, who's gonna, who's gonna catch her first? We're all here. We're ready with open arms. And that must be very overwhelming.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  It was, that was the biggest shock leaving because it has to get so bad that you're willing to be alone in the world

• 58:11Speaker 01

  rather than stay another second in that situation.

• 58:14Alex Cooper?

  And then turns out you're not alone.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  And then it turns out you're not. It's the biggest surprise and the biggest gift.

• 58:20Alex Cooper?

  We have so much still to go through. We're not there yet. But that makes me so happy to know because I think so many people listening are like, oh my God, I needed to hear that. Cause I, they may be sitting in their car, listening to this, going home to that abuser, being like, wait.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:33Alex Cooper?

  Maybe this is the sign that like, cause I do feel that right now. I feel like I only have him or I only have her. And then it's like,

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:40Alex Cooper?

  They are making you feel that way. On the One Tree Hill thing, because I do know, and I talk about this a lot with actors, like, there is this voyeuristic thing that fans become obsessed with these dynamics, and that's why I was asking about the Sophia thing, because it was interesting seeing you write about it in the book, because we all fell in love with you and her and all the characters on this show. I have to ask, because it's Call Her Daddy. Fans are speculating that things between you and Hillary are not great, not friends anymore, don't follow each other on social media. I don't want to get too much into it, because I know it's like, this is your personal life. I just wondered if you have anything to like, say about it?

• 59:20Speaker 01

  I, I love Hillary. I have always and will always, and I don't have any problem with her. There've been some bizarre misunderstandings that I really hope we can figure out one day, but I, I love that girl.

• 59:33Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, thank you for sharing. Have you had any conversations about signing up for the reboot?

• 59:39Speaker 01

  No, it's way too early to even talk about that. I know. I don't know if it was a press release or something leaked, or I don't know. I mean, I had heard about it.

• 59:46Alex Cooper?

  Are we going back to Tree Hill? Haley, we're going back. Okay, good to know. Too early, too early.

• 1:00:08Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Southern New Hampshire University. Daddy gang, let's get real, okay? We like to make our own rules. Southern New Hampshire University gets it. They let you learn what you want with over 200 career-focused programs, where you want with 100% online courses, and how you want with no set class times. Basically, you get to call the shots from day one. Visit SNHU.edu/callherdaddy to learn more. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ross. Fall is about finding pieces you love, making them your own, and creating looks and spaces just right for the season. Whether you're updating a small apartment or a spacious home, drawn to timeless neutrals, or bold seasonal

• 1:00:53Alex Cooper?

  touches, Ross makes it easy to imagine what's next and bring your fall vision to life. Ross makes fashion accessible to all with up to 20 to 60% off other retailers' prices on the brands you love. Find your nearest Ross at rossstores.com. This is a paid ad by BetterHelp. So anytime that I am finding myself having a habit that I just cannot kick, I'm like, okay, I need to talk about this in therapy. Listen, guys, everyone has habits, mindsets, or patterns that don't serve them. But recognizing what they are and learning how to let them go can be so important. It's literally the first step towards creating meaningful change. And Therapy with BetterHelp, one of the leading online therapy platforms,

• 1:01:34Alex Cooper?

  can be a space to explore where those patterns come from and develop healthier habits and mindsets for a more fulfilling life. With over 30,000 therapists worldwide, BetterHelp has served millions of people globally. BetterHelp makes it easier to fit therapy into your routine with flexible ways to connect that work for different schedules and lifestyles. Plus, BetterHelp therapists have at least three years and 1,000 hours on-hand experience and hold all required education, training, and certifications. You can meet with a range of professionals from marriage and family therapists to social workers and counselors. So, Daddy Gang, if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try.

• 1:02:16Alex Cooper?

  Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/daddy. That's betterh-e-l-p.com/daddy. I'm curious, now back into, so you're in One Tree Hill, we're watching all of this success, and then the rumors obviously start. Is she in a cult? What is happening? How was that, like, affecting your career outside of One Tree Hill? Because I knew you wanted to do more things. And didn't you have, like, an opportunity on Broadway that they stopped? Like, how much did they have a hold of your career? Yeah, that was tough. That was a tough pill to swallow.

• 1:02:53Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, I mean, gosh, we started out on this show and it was budding and it was so successful and, you know, the fans of TRL and now the show's everywhere and we're doing Teen Vogue and I'm getting auditions for huge studio movies or screen tests, rather. It was like, they were, they were much farther along than I had ever been because once you have that kind of exposure, the studios are much more likely to, to sign off on you on their list.

• 1:03:17Alex Cooper?

  And so, it was, it was an exciting time. And I was so far along in, in my submission and abdication to this group that I...

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  And the thing was that it was disguised as submission to God. And so in that, from that place, everything about my career started to then funnel through the group because I didn't trust my own instinct to know if I was on the right path or taking the right job. I think we all struggle enough with making decisions, especially if you're somebody with ADHD, who is just like, I can't, I can stand in front of a line at Starbucks for 10 minutes and everyone hates me. So let alone big life decisions, it's so paralyzing if you don't know that you can kind of make any choice and it's all gonna work out okay.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  So yeah, there were, I, I was cast as Belle in Beauty and the Beast and gave that up at the, at the advice, the heavy-handed advice of Les, the Les character in the book.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  There were some really big movies that I was on a shortlist for, auditioned for, was pinned for. And then I had to call my agent and be like, you know what, I actually don't, I don't want, I don't want to do this. I don't want to continue auditioning for this.

• 1:04:43Alex Cooper?

  Why do you think they didn't want you to do it?

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think it's just control. Like the more that I worked, the less they would see me. The more that I worked, the more confidence I would be gaining in my abilities and my creativity. You know, if I just stayed playing one character for 10 years and I never did anything else, then they know where I am all the time, basically.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  I'm not gaining a sense of freedom in traveling all over the world. I'm not meeting new people because they, they had a handle on who was on set, who the people were that I was working with. They knew how to control my perspectives of all the people. But if I'm meeting new people, if I'm in New York and I'm, and I'm in a new show, if I'm traveling to Greece to film a movie, if I'm, they, there was just no way to control that.

• 1:05:34Alex Cooper?

  They also controlled your finances.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  Yes ma'am.

• 1:05:39Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:05:41Alex Cooper?

  How did that come to be? And did you have any hesitations when you handed over your finances to these people?

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Yes, I did.

• 1:05:51Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  Your gut never goes away.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  I got married to another group member and

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  very Christian tradition, maybe in other religions too. I don't know where you merge your finances when you get married.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  I think there's probably a lot of secular people who also merge their finances when they get married as a sign of unity and we're doing this together. Like, great.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  And so that's what I did. I just did the dutiful Christian wife thing and merged my accounts and it never it didn't occur to me, of course, that I was going to be taken advantage of. It was more just that gut check of like, this is mine.

• 1:06:44Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Like I've been working really hard for all of this and

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  I'm not sure that I should just be randomly adding someone else's name to the account, but it's, I'm gonna marry him, so I guess it's okay.

• 1:07:00Alex Cooper?

  So you end up marrying who was the cult leader's son?

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:05Alex Cooper?

  And you talk about him as QB in the book.

• 1:07:09Alex Cooper?

  How would you describe your relationship at first with this man?

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Playful and

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  easy. We didn't have a lot in common. There wasn't a lot of intellectual stimulation, but there was, I mean, I was, I kind of ran out of options. Like I couldn't date a non-Christian. I couldn't

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  really date anybody outside of the group, or certainly not anybody who lived anywhere outside of that area. So, yeah, it just became this sort of arranged situation.

• 1:07:50Alex Cooper?

  Can you explain the concept that you write about in the book about spiritual authority in relationships?

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, super typical in many Christian communities. This idea that the man is the spiritual authority in a household. So spiritual authority would be, I think, as far as I understood it in the group, it was the man, it basically gets the last word on everything and he gets the final say. And you really are not allowed to question him. You can't question his decisions. You can't know about deep intimate things in his life. He has to go to other men for that. But he's responsible for you and he's supposed to know all the deep intimate things about your life.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  That's how it was presented to me, but not in those words. Otherwise I would have been like, y'all crazy.

• 1:08:46Alex Cooper?

  Let me clarify, Alex, that's not how it was presented.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:50Alex Cooper?

  It was a way better way that they talked about it. Um, you saved yourself for marriage, but ultimately you write about having no sexual desire for your husband at the time. How did this impact the way you understood sex?

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  It was so difficult.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  I don't know how people in other cultures who have arranged marriages do it. I can only come from my Western perspective, but I don't want to assume that that's the only way of doing things. But for me, based on my upbringing, and I was really, like I said, I was boy crazy. Like I had a crazy sex drive. It's kind of amazing that I didn't have sex until I was married. It felt like this promise that I had been given as a good evangelical was a big crock. Like what the heck?

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  I thought if I save myself for marriage, then the promise is amazing sex and super deep intimacy and nothing's ever as good and it's just like the best thing ever. God created sex and it's just gonna be the best thing ever. And then we have sex and it's like, why do I feel so sad? Why, why is this not, I don't feel more connected to you. I feel farther away from you. I

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  It's, it wasn't, and, and I don't think that necessarily had anything to do with saving myself for marriage. It was just that I married the wrong person. I mean, that also is hard to say because I have an amazing daughter. And so is anything wrong? Like, here I am, hopefully able to help a lot of people. So it's hard to say that any of those choices were wrong. But in the moment, I definitely felt like, oh no, this is, this can't be it. This is bad.

• 1:10:41Alex Cooper?

  When you realized that, obviously, I know you wrote about in the book, which was very sad about this schedule that was essentially implemented into your relationship. Can you talk about that?

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  It's so, it's so wild to even just hear you say that it's sad because I haven't talked to a lot of people about that. I wrote it and just was like, okay, I wrote it, move on, keep going. That I, to clarify, daddy gang.

• 1:11:17Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  That it was, I didn't have this attraction. I didn't have the drive, really ever. We just weren't connected. We weren't the right people for each other. And so because I was so disinterested in sex, I was then asked to go on a schedule, basically of like, here's how you can, you just have to do it. Just do it. This is your duty. This is your job as a wife. Your emotions will fall in line. If you do it enough, then eventually you will find a way to enjoy it. You will find a way to feel connected. And you know, it's at

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  that point, you're like, again, the things that you hear, if you heard it right away, you'd be like, this shit's crazy. I'm out. But when you're that far down the line and you have so much at stake, and now I'm in a marriage, and now I'm, I'm tied up with, and I have no other friends outside of this group, and I've, I've made a commitment, and I take marriage seriously, and I made a promise before God, like, this is something I really want to figure out how to make it work. So I, I hated it, but I was like, okay, if this is what I'm supposed to do, I will just. I'll just make sure that it's happening every, you know, well, he was back and forth between the Pacific Northwest and Wilmington a lot. So the schedule had more to do with when he was in town.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  But yeah, it was, it was a routine that we, that I had to participate in

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  in order to keep the peace in my marriage.

• 1:12:56Alex Cooper?

  When he would come into town, would you like?

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, my God, like I just, my stomach dropped every single time. And in fact, it really affected my relationships afterwards, like other boyfriends that I would have. When I had to go pick them up from the airport, I had so much PTSD from showing up at the airport to see him, knowing that I was gonna have to start this sex schedule for the next like two weeks or three weeks or whatever.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  And it's so sad because he, like, poor guy, like, never had a shot, was raised by this narcissist. He's, he's thrust into a marriage with a girl that's not right for him. He's doing the best that he can. He's been fed all these lies about men and machismo and warriors and all this shit that like, he was raised in that. So it was just a mess all around.

• 1:13:43Alex Cooper?

  No, it, it just makes me really, yes, it is sad, Joy. It is sad to hear you because I think a lot of women can relate to that of not wanting to do something, but knowing to keep the peace. That is the way to go. And it's so frustrating because a lot of people, unless you're involved in something, don't understand how to break the cycle because a lot of times I think as women, we're just taught like, it's better to just appease the situation and just like not cause a problem rather than speaking up for ourselves and trying to get out of it because that could lead to violence, which you write about in the book. There's so many things that can come from going against the grain. So sometimes you just fall in line.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  It's exactly what you were talking about with your Paris story, by the way, like, that's the same thing that like, I'm stuck in the situation. I just wanna, how do I make it just go away? Just get it over with. It'll be done. Maybe this will help. Maybe this will be the thing that brings us together. It's a reasonable thing to assume because there are so many marriage therapists out there who will tell you when they're looking at a couple who's been married for 25 years and they're not interested in each other anymore, they're like, listen, you have to go through the motions sometimes because it'll help you remember who you were together a long time ago. It's not crazy advice, it's just crazy advice in that circumstance.

• 1:15:02Alex Cooper?

  Yes, yes. Thank you for clarifying. That was a good one. At this time also, I wanted to just like kind of talk about the juxtaposition of like, we have Haley and Nathan being this it couple on television. Did you ever catch yourself like loving your TV marriage and almost like using that as a form of escapism from your real marriage?

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. I did, yes. And, and only in the moments when the cameras were rolling. And so it worked with the storyline. I mean, Nathan and Haley had great chemistry. And so I leaned into it. But I, thank God, James and I were able to really maintain a totally professional relationship. Like, I just never, I always sort of saw him in real life as a brotherly figure. And he was lovely. So we never crossed that boundary. And I never had to worry about having feelings for, like, that would have been really, really difficult. But no.

• 1:16:00Alex Cooper?

  But I just knew also, like, because of the controlling aspect of this cult, like, were they okay with your, like, having even just like an on-screen romantic relationship where you're having to kiss this co-star? Like, how did that go?

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Nobody cared except my husband. I mean, he hated it. But he also wanted me to quit acting so I would stop making out with other guys.

• 1:16:22Alex Cooper?

  There you go. There you go. Okay, so as you're, we're kind of getting towards like now, like, the big moment where you're going to realize you need to leave. But I want to talk about, and I know, I love that you mentioned this earlier, there is an obvious disconnect between you and your husband at the time, but something so beautiful came out of your relationship, which is your daughter.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:48Alex Cooper?

  And that you write about so beautifully of like, She's your everything and so you did get something incredible out of such a horrific experience for those 10 years. When you had this child with your husband, like, had you guys talked about wanting to start a family together?

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  He wanted to, I wasn't ready because I was miserable and it just took a long time. I mean, it took long enough for me to get to a place where I felt like, okay, we're happy enough, like, we're friendly enough. It seems like we're on a pretty good track. So, let's just, I think we're ready now. I didn't know when you're supposed to have a baby or not supposed to, or I didn't know what to do, but I knew that I was not in misery and I, and I wanted, I did want a baby. I'd always wanted a baby. I always wanted to be a mom.

• 1:17:52Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  But I didn't want to do it in a time when I was full of emotional turmoil and that took about six years to get to that point.

• 1:18:00Alex Cooper?

  So, you talk about you're on set of One Tree Hill, someone's like, are you in a cult? You're like, no, you don't get it. Take me to the moment that it did click for you. Oh, this is not one big happy family, this is a cult.

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:20Alex Cooper?

  When did you realize?

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  It was after the show, unfortunately. It had just ended in November, I believe. I was in LA in February in pilot season and I, I mean, there's no auditioning up in the Pacific Northwest. It wasn't a life that I was realistically going to be able to live and keep my insurance or the only insurance and the only income that we had and all the money was gone at that point, so, which I didn't totally know, but they knew. So, I think that's probably why my ex and his dad were like, yeah, maybe you should get an apartment in LA.

• 1:18:55Alex Cooper?

  Right. Maybe time to get back on set. Let's get you a job.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  So, I, yeah, we were, we were in LA and I had been in therapy. I felt more like I would like to talk with someone about all of the misery that I'm experiencing and I would like that person to be outside of this family and. As I did that, the therapy was immensely helpful for me and started to teach me about boundaries. And because my ex-husband had some violent tendencies, the first thing that my therapist was addressing with me was, hey, not okay for somebody to be physically violent towards you, around you. This, this is not okay on a, on a routine basis.

• 1:19:41Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  And so I started to implement boundaries and, and I think after that, after I extracted my daughter and myself from a physically abusive environment, I was more willing to look at things from alternative perspectives. My therapist, I remember, probably two months after that, was like, are we ready to call it a cult yet? Which was brave of her. And I, I was like, no. Like, I would not be that stupid. Like, no, that is not me. Guess what? Me!

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  Yep. She was right. It took, it took a minute, though. Like, maybe I was very uncomfortable with it and I, I had to, to really sit with that for a while. But once it, once I, once she said that and all the pieces really started to like lock into place, it became clear that it was really unhealthy.

• 1:20:48Alex Cooper?

  I think something really beautiful also that you're talking about, again, to anyone in a situation similar with these themes of essentially being isolated to then be abused and manipulated, is the minute you have someone who doesn't want you to interact with anyone outside of the people they can control, that is the biggest red flag. Because you just getting a little bit of An opportunity to speak to someone that is licensed to speak with you and help you set boundaries, which every single human being should have boundaries in their life with other humans. And you're seeing this, like, it was such an opportunity for you, again, to grow

• 1:21:30Alex Cooper?

  and to recognize like what you didn't want in life, but that completely threatens your ex-husband's ability to control you. And so I think that for people listening, I hope you can take it. If like, if you feel like the only person you can constantly turn to is the person who is hurting you the most, that is your sign that you are in an abusive situation. They need, they can only control you if you are alone with them. And of course, you can go to work and you can have friends, but you know that there's a different level of going to work. And when's the last time you actually had a girls' night and he didn't have tabs on you of who, you know what I mean? It's like, it, it's so quick that it flips. Cause like I said to you earlier, like, oh, so you were going to work. Like, you can

• 1:22:14Alex Cooper?

  look like you're living a very normal life. It's just inside of you, you have these guardrails that you know that you can't go outside of. And it's really fucking difficult to get away from that, because you become conditioned.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. You think that you're, you think that you're not alone, but the more you, but your gut is telling you, you feel like you're completely isolated.

• 1:22:38Alex Cooper?

  Can you share with us, and I know we talked about this earlier, but coming back to like, the process of leaving and untangling your life from these people in this cult? Like, what was that experience like? Cause again, we talked about how it's terrifying. And then what was your experience?

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  It was terrifying. It was my only friends, so I thought.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Suddenly turned on me and they were showing up at my house to, you know, for custody exchanges, like trying to intimidate me and, and like. Flanking my ex on either side like goons just ready to watch me or ready to you know film film me doing like to have your best friends who you've shared your most vulnerable intimate secrets with suddenly turn around and like overnight just that's it you're you're if you're not with us you're against us if you're not part of us you're the enemy and to be treated like an enemy is is from someone who who you've been very, very close with all of a sudden

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  no conversation no there there just was no willingness to see because the stakes are so high for them too. You know, like it's understandable objectively, but.

• 1:23:57Alex Cooper?

  You go into this custody battle and and you write about something I thought was really interesting about. Can you talk to me regarding the lawyers and the court and how they reacted to you explaining this cult experience to them?

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  This is this is one of the most frustrating things about all of it because I I began to realize how broken the family court system is in this country.

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  The the saying is no bruise, no case. If you don't have a physical altercation with someone, they don't consider it abuse in the court because how do you legislate or even qualify mental abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse? I mean, that's that's the hardest one too because the courts are like, I don't want to touch anything religious church and state like no.

• 1:25:10Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Southern New Hampshire University. Daddy gang, let's get real, okay? We like to make our own rules. Southern New Hampshire University gets it. They let you learn what you want with over 200. Focus programs, where you want with 100% online courses and how you want with no set class times. Basically, you get to call the shots from day one. Visit s n h u dot edu slash call her daddy to learn more. Call her daddy is brought to you by Ross. Fall is about finding pieces you love, making them your own and creating looks and spaces just right for the season. Whether you're updating a small apartment or a spacious home drawn to timeless

• 1:25:52Alex Cooper?

  neutrals or bold seasonal touches, Ross makes it easy to imagine what's next and bring your fall vision to life. Ross makes fashion accessible to all with up to 20 to 60% off other retailers prices on the brands you love. Find your nearest Ross at Ross stores.com. I want to ask you this mostly because I do think it's so indicative of the like exploitiveness of this dynamic and the abuse of like through the custody battle, you write about how you had to spend so much money in court like around the number. Can you share like how much these people took from you financially?

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  Well, when I was in the group, they took $2 million from me.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  When I got out, I had about 250 left, which is not nothing. I mean, that's a significant amount of money.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  But the court costs in total were about 350, 350,000. And that was so, so I left the group with money in the bank that was already committed to other things.

• 1:27:05Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  Like my mortgage, like, like the, um, which I ended up having to do a short sale on, um, like, like the IRS, like so many unpaid bills and there were lawsuits I didn't know about that I had to, I mean, it was absolute financial abuse. It was just a total mess.

• 1:27:27Alex Cooper?

  So everything you basically made from one tree hill just?

• 1:27:30Speaker 01

  Gone. And another relatable thing about this for so many women who are in abusive relationships is the financial tie that they're like, I can't leave because what am I gonna do? Who's gonna pay for my kids? Who's gonna pay for the groceries? A lot of them don't have a skill because they've been in a controlled environment for so long. So they're like, I can't, what, what kind of job am I gonna get? The guy controls all the money and

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  I

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  I was gonna say my advice would be get out anyway and just trust that it's gonna be okay, but that's a really cheap thing to say because I'm not, I don't know every single person's situation, but I, I, I hate, I guess the heart behind what I am meaning is that

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  I hate for any woman, anyone to be stuck in a situation because of finances and

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  I know what it's like to be a single mom and not know where next month's rent is coming from and

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  I learned a lot in that time. I grew a lot and it, it did, God did always show up for me, like something always worked out every month.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  So I can't, you know, like I, I'm not here to give advice, but I can tell what happened for me.

• 1:28:51Alex Cooper?

  But I, and I appreciate the sentiment of it is like leaving something bad, like you will find something, I believe in the world, like you will find something good that comes to you when you can get out of something like that. As we're kind of like finishing this conversation, I feel like obviously I, I want everyone to go read your book and, and there's so much in it that is so even more detailing of like how someone can get into the situation because I am so understanding that at face value, someone can roll their eyes and be like, what do you mean you were in a cult? Like you asked for this, like again, and that's why someone needs to listen to this episode and then they'll be like, okay, wait, nevermind, that's fucking crazy.

• 1:29:32Alex Cooper?

  Um, but can you share like, what do you think the biggest misconception people have about cults is?

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  It's the same misconception I had, which is why I didn't think I was in one because I was like, no, cults are crazy people and they all live together in some weird big house and they all wear the same thing and they're, they're all sleeping with the leader and they're all, you know, he's got a million babies with all these ladies and they're doing all kinds of crazy shit and drinking weird things and they don't interact with the rest of the world. Like it's everything that you think of from a 1970s flower child, you know, Yes. bizarro worlds cults. And we've, we've come a long way because there is no real

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  definition of a cult. You can't even use it in court, the word cult. It's not viable. You have to say high demand group. Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, there's, there's no legal definition of cult. Like Catholicism, I guess is a cult, Christianity, Buddhism, SoulCycle, like I said before, like I love SoulCycle, by the way. I know, I'm just saying, I know some people get real hyped on it, so.

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  Nobody get what you're saying. There's no, there's no definition. So it's, it's like we've used it as this slang for things that are super weird.

• 1:30:54Alex Cooper?

  That is so helpful because I agree. I think people picture like cloaks and like

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:59Alex Cooper?

  this like voodoo shit.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:01Alex Cooper?

  No, it's.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  The Illuminati and all these things. Yeah.

• 1:31:04Alex Cooper?

  Your onset of One Tree Hill, we're all watching you and it's all going down. Like it is just, you can get into a situation that you don't even know what it is because it's presenting at first as this loving person that's wanting to just be your friend and help you out.

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:19Alex Cooper?

  So you get out and now I'm curious, um, kind of like the aftermath of how has your experience of going from being so controlled and manipulated by these people impacted your now ability to trust people?

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  Brilliant question.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you hit the nail on that. I mean, it's, it's really difficult. I, I joke about it a lot. I'm like, I don't trust anybody, you know?

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  But I don't, I was just talking about this over coffee this morning with a girlfriend. I, I don't want to go through the world as someone who doesn't trust people.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  That's not how we're supposed to live. I don't, I really believe that's not how we're supposed to live.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  I also am really grateful for the lesson that it's okay to give people the benefit of the doubt, but maybe not credit. If that makes sense, like you don't, you don't get to walk into my life and automatically get the free credit card of like friend, here's the friendship credit card, swipe it whenever you want, do whatever you want with it.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  But I will give you the benefit of the doubt if I see something weird or like every, that's been the hardest part to navigate, Alex, is just who, who is who's just normal and has weird baggage, like hello, every single human.

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  When is the baggage something that's affecting my boundaries in a way that I, I just can't engage with?

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  When is the baggage something that triggers me, but maybe I can learn something and maybe you can learn something and it's worth pushing through?

• 1:33:11Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  I don't, it's a case by case basis.

• 1:33:13Alex Cooper?

  I was gonna say, like, I was going to ask you, how do you learn to trust yourself again, but I feel like it's kind of the same, it's in the same vein of like, you're, you're gonna learn to trust yourself as you're going to trust other people. And when you're feeling something that doesn't make you feel good about that person, you're not trusting them as much. You then have to turn inward and be like, is this because of my trauma? Or is this because this person is actually showing something that is pushing my boundaries and making me uncomfortable and you have to be able to discern the two?

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  And you're not always gonna get it right. You're not, you're just gonna have to, at some point, let go and trust.

• 1:33:49Alex Cooper?

  My last question is, like, what do you ultimately hope people take away from reading your book?

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  Well, I hope they never join a cult.

• 1:34:01Alex Cooper?

  No Daddy Gang, no cults.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  I, I just, I hope people feel like they're not alone. I've said that before. Like, I, I really, I really want people to, to feel like, um, their own shame, their own mistakes are faceable.

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  That there's hope and that shame, like, please don't live in shame. Don't let it keep you closed off and shut down and not talk about things. You, you have to let it out. You have to let it out of your body. This is the only way to actually find hope and move forward. So I really hope that that's, um, an alleviating thing for people.

• 1:34:45Alex Cooper?

  It is. It's more than alleviating. It is extremely encouraging and hopeful. Um, I cannot thank you enough for coming and having this conversation with me.

• 1:34:55Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:34:56Alex Cooper?

  I can already feel just how impactful this is going to be. And I commend you for writing this book. I think it's like so incredible of you to be able to like pen to paper, put down something that consumed your life for 10 years. And I think a lot of, a lot of people are going to find not only like comfort in it, but feel very connected to you. And I think you have like a very incredible story, but just you as a human being, like sitting with you. I'm like, you're a very inspiring person. Um, and I'm so excited to see what you continue to do. Like, thank you for taking the time. It was literally an honor.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Thank you, Alex. Well, I, I think you're inspiring too. I really, I really do. I think you're so smart and so interesting. And I love the way that you just, that you just embrace life and run, kind of run freely, like open. Your openness is really, really engaging and inviting and, and I want more of it in my life. So I'm, I'm really grateful I got to spend some time with you today.

• 1:36:07Alex Cooper?

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• 1:37:30Alex Cooper?

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