Lukas Gage

Lukas Gage (I Wrote This For Attention, Voicemails for Isabelle, and The White Lotus) is an actor and author. Lukas joins Armchair Expert to discuss growing up in a chaotic family in San Diego, surviving a brutal hate crime as a teenager, and being sent to a troubled teen wilderness program. Lukas and Dax talk about navigating Hollywood as a closeted actor, the surreal experience of getting married on The Kardashians, and Conor McGregor fracturing a disc in his back while filming Road House. Lukas explains how a BPD diagnosis changed the way he understood himself, how shame and secrecy can distort identity, and what it means to stop performing for other people's approval. Check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds: https://www.allstate.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 0:04Dax Shepard?

  We have an actor with an incredible story and we're blessed with his memoir, which is, I wrote this for attention. Today, we have Lukas Gage on and, uh, you know, wild story, right?

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Really wild and he was very open with us and it was really lovely.

• 0:21Dax Shepard?

  Yes, incredibly vulnerable. Uh, he was in The White Lotus, Euphoria, You, Fargo, Smile Two, and, uh, he has a new movie out now on Netflix, Voicemail for Isabel.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Great movie.

• 0:36Dax Shepard?

  Great movie?

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Say that. Great movie.

• 0:38Dax Shepard?

  Great. Please enjoy Lukas Gage. We get support from Quince.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait.

• 0:52Dax Shepard?

  I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my season. Give me the layers, give me the boots, give me a reason to wear something other than a t-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince, because fall is when your wardrobe actually has to show up and everything at Quince is 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We're talking 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at $60.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  $60, $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing. Gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is because they go straight to the factories, they skip the middlemen and they just hand you the savings. The stuff isn't trendy. It's the kind of pieces you grab over and over because they work every time.

• 1:33Dax Shepard?

  The 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters for me are it. When I look at Steve McQueen, this man owned a couple of sweaters he wore all the time and he looks iconic.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  It's a uniform.

• 1:43Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  And Quince isn't just about the clothes. They have hotel quality bedding, cookware, bath essentials, thoughtfully designed furniture. You can really go there and outfit your entire apartment or house. So if you're in need of any kind of fall refresh at home too, same quality, same attention to detail for every corner of your life.

• 2:01Dax Shepard?

  Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Dax, is there anything better than crawling into a perfect bed on a cold fall night? Candlelit, hoodie on, maybe even some rain outside. The dream.

• 2:34Dax Shepard?

  That's the dream. You just described one of my ideal fall nights.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  I know. And thanks to Helix, my bed actually lives up to the vibe. All I had to do was take the Helix Sleep Quiz and within two minutes, they matched me to a mattress built for exactly how I sleep. I have a midnight mattress. It also has cooling technology, which I really-

• 2:55Dax Shepard?

  Increasingly so.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  I need it. I have to have it. And I heard that you're supposed to sleep at a cold temp for optimal sleep. It's very, very helpful.

• 3:06Dax Shepard?

  She is not wrong. I have one too, and it's been such a game changer for sleep. And I love that they make it so easy. Free shipping right to your door. And with their happy with Helix guarantee, you'll get a full 365 nights to try it. A whole year to live in that cozy. They've got over 20 mattress models. So no matter how you sleep, they've got one for you.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  And it's not just us saying it. Helix has been named the most awarded mattress brand by Forbes, Wired, and more. You gotta try it for yourself.

• 3:33Dax Shepard?

  Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site wide. Helixsleep.com/armchair.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Hi Monica, how are you?

• 4:05Dax Shepard?

  You smell really good.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Do I smell good?

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do. You do.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Was I so weird to you at that barbecue on Sunday?

• 4:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no. Let's start with me apologizing to you.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  No, I apologize. I feel real- okay.

• 4:16Dax Shepard?

  No, you hold your microphone.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Let's start. This is already exciting.

• 4:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so you and I were both at a party-

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:22Dax Shepard?

  On-

• 4:22Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 4:23Dax Shepard?

  Sunday.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  You wanna out who it was? We love him.

• 4:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Phineas. Okay.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  We love Phineas.

• 4:30Dax Shepard?

  Phineas's party.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:31Dax Shepard?

  And you were there and we said hi to each other. And you said, oh, I'm doing the show this week. And I said, I know, I'm really excited.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:37Dax Shepard?

  And then I was like, I gotta get the fuck away from this guy immediately. Cause I don't wanna talk to you.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  That's what I felt.

• 4:43Dax Shepard?

  Discover a bunch of fun stuff about you and then have to replicate that today. And then I left the party. I was even talking to Ryan. Do you know Ryan Hansen? Do you know that actor?

• 4:52Speaker 02

  I know, I know who he is, but I saw you with him. Yeah.

• 4:54Dax Shepard?

  We then were together the rest of the day and I was just, the whole day I was like, I'm so worried that Lucas thinks I'm a dick. But I just was so like, I don't wanna blow our wad.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  I'm really glad you made that move because then yeah, this whole episode would have just been repeats.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  That's what I felt though. I was spiraling and I felt like I was being a dick to you.

• 5:10Dax Shepard?

  Oh no, you talked to Kristen a bunch, right?

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, Kristen was great. She was so lovely. And then I was like, I need to like make up for being so weird about like that. I was holding a taco and I didn't shake your hand because I had a taco in my hand.

• 5:20Dax Shepard?

  Oh no, I didn't notice any of that.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  I was hyper aware that I didn't wanna blow my load before our podcast.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Love that. That's awesome.

• 5:28Dax Shepard?

  It was very mutual.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Okay, good. I'm glad. I'm glad. I'm so glad.

• 5:31Dax Shepard?

  I was neurotic about the fact that you're like, what a dick. Like, hey, I'm doing your show this week. And I'm like, cool. See you later.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  That's what I felt like.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  No one wanted to just say like, we shouldn't talk because we're gonna have to save it. Everyone felt too scared.

• 5:45Dax Shepard?

  I don't even know that I connected what my impulse was until after the fact.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:50Dax Shepard?

  Like, I don't even know if in that moment I knew.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  I don't think I did either.

• 5:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  I thought about it later. I was like, maybe that's why I was so awkward with them. I was so aware and I feel like I have this weird parasocial relationship with you guys because I've listened to your podcasts.

• 6:02Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you have?

• 6:03Speaker 01

  That's so nice.

• 6:04Dax Shepard?

  Oh, oh, we love that.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  That's so flattering.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  It's that weird kind of balancing act of like, do I talk to them before? Do I tell them that I'm, I don't know.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  I'm glad we had the same experience.

• 6:14Dax Shepard?

  Yes. And you know what's really funny, Lucas, is that we've had guests arrive like really early and they've been neurotic about not wanting to talk to me. And I have said to them, don't worry, we'll have plenty. Like you don't need to worry about blowing. Even Letterman kept going like, oh, let's get inside.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, yeah.

• 6:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like he is like, Letterman was like worried we were gonna blow stuff.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Well, he's the master of conversation. So he knows.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, he knows.

• 6:38Dax Shepard?

  But also it's Dave Letterman. I bet we'll be fine.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's nice to know even he has those anxieties too. That's nice.

• 6:45Dax Shepard?

  Isn't it comforting?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  That is comforting. All of us are terribly insecure.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, we are.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Well, your wife made me feel a lot better about it. I talked to her about my insecurity about it.

• 6:54Dax Shepard?

  She told me.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Did she?

• 6:55Dax Shepard?

  That she had a very nice chat with you.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  She was lovely.

• 6:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I think she told me, she said like, oh, well, don't worry, Dex will make sure you're fine, right?

• 7:02Speaker 02

  You did say that.

• 7:02Dax Shepard?

  And I will.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  She was very sweet. And then she was like crocheting the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Oh, I know. She's making like a bandana thing. Point hell.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, she's like really intricate, though.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  I know.

• 7:14Dax Shepard?

  She'll also do that like on a roller coaster, right? There's no place she won't be. Yeah, she could be on the back of a motorcycle and she would be doing it.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  I really want one.

• 7:22Dax Shepard?

  You want to learn?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  No, I want her to make me one.

• 7:24Dax Shepard?

  Okay, but we also met in Austin.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  I'll never forget it.

• 7:28Dax Shepard?

  Okay, tell me.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  First, I'll say I've never seen someone be so composed at a Q and A as you were. You blew my mind. It was the most nuts Q and A of all time.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  What was it? What was the thing?

• 7:39Dax Shepard?

  It was the Conor McGregor thing. You were there.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  It's a roadhouse.

• 7:42Dax Shepard?

  Were you in the audience?

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Yes, I was in the audience.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  That was a crazy premiere. I mean, people were just wasted.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:49Dax Shepard?

  Please give me your perspective because Monica and I have ours. We were there, we experienced it, but please give me your perspective. And we'll both be running the risk of getting beat up by Conor McGregor.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  I already got in trouble for saying that he fucked my back up and he got mad at me. I meant in a loving way. I was glad that he beat me up on set. I was like, that's so cool. I love that I could say Conor McGregor like fractured my disc.

• 8:11Dax Shepard?

  You're in a list of very tough people.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Totally. No, I felt really cool and I meant it as a compliment. I just remember being next to Post Malone, Jake Gyllenhaal and Conor McGregor and being like, what the fuck am I doing here? I don't belong here. And I remember you were so sweet. Maybe you're just a good person, but I think you could feel how nervous I was and you said something about, guys, have you seen Fargo? This kid's really good at acting. It was so sweet.

• 8:37Dax Shepard?

  You were spectacular in Fargo. Do you remember the fucking goofy golfing dorky husband of me?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I know. I know. So good.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Thank you, guys.

• 8:46Dax Shepard?

  You're just like, every time the guy talks, you're like, oh, fuck, dude, I would hate to be that.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  And that was such a good season.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a great season.

• 8:54Dax Shepard?

  That was the best.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  It was so good.

• 8:56Dax Shepard?

  Fuck, that was. Good season.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Thank you. You were so sweet. And I just remember being completely in over my head.

• 9:01Dax Shepard?

  I was in over my head as well.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  I couldn't tell. You were so composed. I don't know how you pulled it off.

• 9:06Dax Shepard?

  Well, to set the context, so we got invited to after a screening of Roadhouse Q and A with the cast. And then I said I would do that if we could interview Connor.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:16Dax Shepard?

  So we had done that earlier in the day.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Connor and Jake together.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:20Dax Shepard?

  We did have a really sweet moment at the end of that interview where I was encouraging him to embrace the kid who got beat up, who then pursued this because he had been humiliated and remember that boy? And let the other boys know that it's okay to be that boy, right? I just begged him. I'm like, so many dudes look at you as the apex of masculinity. You have a great opportunity. I just urge you to share the vulnerable stuff. And he like connected with that. He also started drinking in the interview and it was pretty early in the day. And I just was more like, wow, this is going to be fascinating to see how he, how he manages this day. He's got a lot of day ahead of him. I know he's got a lot of press and then we've got this screening. So we go off and fuck off and have some barbecue and we do whatever. And then we go to the, the Q and A.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Which is at night.

• 10:05Dax Shepard?

  We go to the movie at night.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:07Dax Shepard?

  And then I have this whole thing where I try to go in the bathroom. Security stops me. Bathroom's blocked off, but then it's him in there and then he lets me in. Says, I know that was like just stage one of like this.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:17Dax Shepard?

  And then we were seated one row behind him and I was just staring at him the whole screening, right?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  He also travels with a crew.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Twenty people.

• 10:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  So many people and everyone was having a lot of fun.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:31Dax Shepard?

  He has his own whiskey, right? So he's drinking a fifth. What I did notice at one point, I'm watching him drink whiskey and pour glasses for people. And then I noticed the bottle's gone, right? And I watched him open the top. So I was like, okay, a fifth of whiskey has been drank during this premiere. New bottle comes out. I'm watching some other stuff that I'll say I'll get sued for, but I'm making some assessments about what all's going on.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:53Dax Shepard?

  By the time we get on that stage, and I think I even said to Monica as I was walking out, I was like, well, let's see what this is gonna be like. Like, and then you felt like it out there, like you're in the movie. I have nothing to do with that movie. So I'm already dealing with that. Like, are people like, why is this guy doing this? He wasn't in the movie. Quite quickly, Connor takes charge.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:11Dax Shepard?

  And it's a live audience. And when I'm asking certain cast members questions, he's answering. I'm now like, how do we play this? I know what I would normally do, which is I would start making fun of this person gently, who's on stage and everyone's feeling this. And also it's Conor McGregor and is he gonna fucking kick my ass in front of everybody? Talk about the stakes being the highest, I think, because you had the onstage component. And then you have the, is he gonna beat me up if I make fun of him? And then I did start gently making fun of him. I said to the woman in the cast, I was like, I'm gonna ask you this question.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  To Jessica, I remember.

• 11:44Dax Shepard?

  Jessica, but Connor's gonna answer.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:47Dax Shepard?

  And everyone starts dying laughing and I'm literally like, is this the moment? He turns and looks at me with that haunting look in his eyes. It just comes after me. But he laughed.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  No, he liked it.

• 11:56Dax Shepard?

  About it. And I'm like, okay, we got away with that one. And then it was just me trying to pepper in some jokes acknowledging that we had all lost control of this Q and A because Connor was up there. The craziest thing that happened right afterwards was he had hugged me and he was trying to connect with me over that kind of moment we had had in that thing, which was beautiful.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:16Dax Shepard?

  But I also can't understand what he's saying because he's a very thick Irish accent. Maybe he was a little drunk. I'm having PTSD from all the times I've been around tough dudes who are too drunk to know they're repeating something and then they catch you catching them and then they want to fight.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 12:31Dax Shepard?

  So I'm like, how am I navigating this? We're embracing, this is so stressful. And then by the grace of God, his manager passed out.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  I was about to say.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  I forgot about that. He did the hospital, right?

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Funny. I thought about this two days ago. This is so sim and weird. It just popped in my head that that was scary.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it was scary.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Someone like ran up to him.

• 12:52Dax Shepard?

  Someone was having maybe a seizure in the audience. And then thank goodness that happened, not for that poor person.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  So I can't believe that was the end of that.

• 12:59Dax Shepard?

  But Connor was like, what?

• 13:01Speaker 01

  I know.

• 13:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, come on. Like he was in rescue mode.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  He was, thank God.

• 13:05Dax Shepard?

  From the second he let go, I remember just like, am I gonna go like, skip the fuck out of here as quick as I can? Because I've not gotten beat up yet.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  I was so scared. I was like Googling later, what happened to this guy?

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too. And it was like dehydration or something.

• 13:19Dax Shepard?

  I saw my breakfast and he was fine.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Totally fine.

• 13:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, completely. He's like, it happens every time I go out. But I'm trying to remember if it was you. I think because that whole thing happened and the next day, a lot of guys were checking out from the movie and I was out there checking out. And then I was chatting with some guys. I want to say, I think I was talking to you.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  I was talking to you, yeah.

• 13:35Dax Shepard?

  And someone on the set was telling me that what they figured out while making that movie was that he had arrived with a bodyguard. And at first everyone in the cast assumed, oh, people probably tried to fuck with him. That guy's here to protect Connor. And then it started occurring to everyone throughout the shoot. Oh no, that guy's here to protect us.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Wow. Wow. What a way to go through the world.

• 13:58Dax Shepard?

  I mean, wild experience, yeah.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  The most insane experience of all time. And then just throwing in Jake Gyllenhaal. Donnie Darko was my shit as a kid. So I'm like, just trying to keep it together and not fangirl over him and not get killed by Conor McGregor at the same time.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  That's a lot to balance.

• 14:14Dax Shepard?

  There's a lot.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Jesus Christ.

• 14:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, stressful.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  So stressful.

• 14:18Dax Shepard?

  And it's Doug Liman, so it's also a wild director.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Everything changes every minute.

• 14:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Was that the craziest work experience you ever had?

• 14:26Speaker 02

  The craziest I've ever had, but the best experience. And I remember Jake saw me getting a little frustrated in the beginning and not knowing what to do. And just holding on to my preparation too much and trying to be like the good student. And he was like, treat every take like a rehearsal. Nothing matters. Everything's gonna change. We're just rehearsing.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Oh, cool.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  And that like kind of changed my whole, whole mind. Then I was fine.

• 14:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Then I was good.

• 14:50Dax Shepard?

  He's lovely.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  He's great.

• 14:52Dax Shepard?

  It's also a very machismo set, right? It's like, all the guys are gonna be shirtless. We gotta be jacked. He's probably working out.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:58Dax Shepard?

  And then Connor's around. Everyone's fucking even more tripped out.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was insane. It was like a fight camp in Dominican Republic. Jesus Christ.

• 15:07Dax Shepard?

  I can only imagine how that experience would have gone for me at your age, were I in that movie and Connor was there. And then let's say I was drinking too. I wouldn't have got through the whole thing without some.

• 15:21Dax Shepard?

  I would be here with like an eye patch on probably.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Speaking of, you have very nice teeth.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 15:28Speaker 01

  They're fake. Oh, they are?

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. I got them knocked out.

• 15:32Dax Shepard?

  How'd you get them knocked out?

• 15:33Speaker 02

  I got jumped when I was 18.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  What?

• 15:35Speaker 02

  So I have all these scars on my face.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 15:38Dax Shepard?

  It sounds very traumatic, yet you're smiling very hard. It's because you're so happy to have gotten the tea.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  I love my fake tea. I love my busted veneers. No, that's my go to. I like laugh about the most fucked up shit and cover it up with a smile and talk about the most mundane things as it's very emotional for me for some reason. But yeah, I was at a party and got jumped. My friend got beat up for being gay and I think there was maybe some part of me that was subconsciously, I wasn't out or anything, but I was protecting him and myself, I think.

• 16:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  And I jumped in and guys just beat the shit out of me.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 16:13Dax Shepard?

  How many guys? This is a San Diego party?

• 16:15Speaker 02

  San Diego party, yeah.

• 16:16Dax Shepard?

  Explain the dudes. Are they surfer dudes? Are they fucking glamus dudes?

• 16:20Speaker 02

  They're like somewhere in between. They were like rich kids that were a little bro-y and a little, little MAGA vibes, I think.

• 16:28Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  And yeah, I don't know.

• 16:31Dax Shepard?

  Did you watch Veronica Mars?

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Of course. They shot in Oceanside.

• 16:33Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of Jason Doring's crew, it sounds like. Like kind of rich, perhaps?

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was very much the vibe in San Diego. He just got beat up for being gay and the guy was wearing a pink tank top and called him a [BLEEP] and I was like, you're the [BLEEP], you're wearing a pink tank top.

• 16:49Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. That didn't go well.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  It did not go well.

• 16:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  So yeah, five guys against me. I like broke my teeth, broke my nose, broke my orbitals.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  That's why I have a very punchable face.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 17:04Dax Shepard?

  You do. I do. It's okay. You have a lovable face. Thank you. Were you in the hospital for this?

• 17:09Speaker 02

  I was, yeah.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  This is horrible.

• 17:11Dax Shepard?

  For how many days?

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Just like a day after it happened and then I had to go back to put everything back together for a bit.

• 17:17Dax Shepard?

  Okay, there was a little reconstruction?

• 17:19Speaker 02

  There was a little reconstruction going. My nose was like completely fucking.

• 17:23Dax Shepard?

  Really rough?

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Really rough, yeah.

• 17:24Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  These guys go to jail?

• 17:27Speaker 02

  I left this part out of the story. I threw the first punch after he got mad of me calling him [BLEEP] back, even though he was already attacking the kid and they got lawyers that said that technically it was self-defense.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  I know. No one got faulted for it. It was bullshit. Yeah.

• 17:44Dax Shepard?

  It's like no fault accident. Everyone's going, you don't like it.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  No, because it's his fault.

• 17:49Dax Shepard?

  How much older is Cory your brother than you? Is that his name Cory?

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, Cory's seven years older.

• 17:54Dax Shepard?

  And when he found out about this, what was his reaction?

• 17:56Speaker 02

  How did you know that, though, by the way? You do your research.

• 17:59Dax Shepard?

  Well, yeah, that's my job.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  That's like, he just scratched the surface. You wait. He knows a lot about you.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  He was in the army at that time and dealing with his own recovery. And I think he got kicked out of the army at the same time. And we were not in the best of speaking terms at that moment.

• 18:14Dax Shepard?

  So he didn't go ape shit?

• 18:15Speaker 02

  He would have if he was there.

• 18:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  He would have been big brother protective mode for sure.

• 18:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so is it just you two?

• 18:21Speaker 02

  I have three older brothers.

• 18:23Dax Shepard?

  Three older brothers?

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:24Dax Shepard?

  Okay, what are the ages?

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Corey's the second oldest.

• 18:27Dax Shepard?

  He's the second?

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Jesse's the oldest.

• 18:29Dax Shepard?

  He's nine years, how much older?

• 18:30Speaker 02

  No, he's a lot. My mom was 19 when she had him.

• 18:33Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 18:33Speaker 02

  And then that husband passed away.

• 18:35Dax Shepard?

  May I ask how that's young to pass away?

• 18:38Speaker 02

  In a motorcycle accident.

• 18:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  My mom rode motorcycles together and.

• 18:42Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was bad. It was really bad. It was like a month before he was born.

• 18:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was gnarly. Yeah. So then years later, my mom was a badass and got in trouble for like selling trucks. She needed a lawyer and met Corey's dad.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  He ended up being an asshole. They separated and then she met me and my full brother Travis, his dad, and he's four years older than me.

• 19:05Dax Shepard?

  And you're the baby?

• 19:06Speaker 02

  And I'm the baby, yeah.

• 19:07Dax Shepard?

  She called it after that?

• 19:08Speaker 02

  I think I was her favorite mistake. I don't think I was supposed to be.

• 19:12Dax Shepard?

  And how long were your mom and dad together? How did they meet? What did he do for a living? I just know he's from New York.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was a genius, went to Cornell at 14, skipped a bunch of grades. They met at a bar.

• 19:23Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he's a wunderkind.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was next level smart and then met my mom at a bar in San Diego and I think was one of his first relationships ever, like at 28.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 19:34Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so he's kind of a geeky?

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Totally, yeah.

• 19:37Dax Shepard?

  And your mother was wild and fun?

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Completely the opposite.

• 19:40Dax Shepard?

  He just had to hang on for dear life?

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, they worked out. I don't know, for a little bit.

• 19:44Dax Shepard?

  How long were they together?

• 19:46Speaker 02

  They were together for, I want to say like eight years.

• 19:49Dax Shepard?

  And what did he do for a living?

• 19:51Speaker 02

  He was a doctor.

• 19:52Dax Shepard?

  What kind?

• 19:53Speaker 02

  He did a bunch. He was an anesthesiologist and then worked in pain management.

• 19:57Dax Shepard?

  And you've lost track?

• 19:59Speaker 02

  I lost touch with him. He left when I was a teenager. He got remarried and had kids and

• 20:05Dax Shepard?

  decided that was

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was it.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  You've already had a lot.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot of good stuff.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:12Dax Shepard?

  Even since you've been on TV, he hasn't felt compelled to reach out?

• 20:15Speaker 02

  He's reached out like once or twice since that like 10 year gap of not talking.

• 20:20Dax Shepard?

  When I was your age, I was probably at apex issues with my dad.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Hey, look, I think maybe there's time for things to change. And I think as I've gotten older, the anger I've had for him has dissipated and more into, I guess, an understanding of like, just like a different time that he was grown up in. The way that he was shown love as a kid and the way that that was passed on, like, I feel like you could only show the love or give the love that you were shown. As a child, you know?

• 20:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  So I can kind of have compassion for him.

• 20:46Dax Shepard?

  Because he was so brilliant in one category, does he have deficits in others?

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, socially inept.

• 20:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, if he's 28 and he's meeting his first girlfriend.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he was at Cornell at 14. He's probably not having the real college experience.

• 21:00Dax Shepard?

  Was he there with Ronan?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  There.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  I love Ronan.

• 21:04Dax Shepard?

  The Thunderkin?

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:05Dax Shepard?

  So what was life like in Encinitas?

• 21:08Speaker 02

  It was amazing. It was like Veronica Mars. We had surf PE at school.

• 21:12Dax Shepard?

  You did?

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. We started school with surfing every day.

• 21:15Dax Shepard?

  You wore shorts to school and hats?

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:18Dax Shepard?

  Tank tops?

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God. None of that was allowed in my school. Was it in Arizona?

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Shorts were definitely allowed.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Shorts are not allowed in school.

• 21:26Dax Shepard?

  I guess they must have been.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  In public school, yeah, you're allowed to wear shorts.

• 21:30Dax Shepard?

  I don't remember wearing shorts.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  But they had to be two fingers thick. Also, like, why? Like, that's so stupid.

• 21:36Dax Shepard?

  Well, because people's titties are hanging out.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, the tits are out.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Two straps help.

• 21:41Dax Shepard?

  Well, it doesn't hurt. Spaghetti strap.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  All right.

• 21:45Dax Shepard?

  What about hats? Could you wear hats?

• 21:47Speaker 01

  I don't think we were allowed to wear hats.

• 21:49Dax Shepard?

  They draw a hard line.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Why was it hats? Why is hats the thing?

• 21:52Dax Shepard?

  I think it's a carryover from like it being rude to wear a hat indoors from like the 30s. Somehow it's a sign of disrespect.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Do you think it's like a racism thing?

• 22:01Dax Shepard?

  Not at my school.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Where'd you guys go to school?

• 22:04Speaker 01

  I was in Georgia.

• 22:05Dax Shepard?

  In Georgia?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  And so, you know, there's that southern politeness. So that may Maybe as part of it.

• 22:09Dax Shepard?

  We know about a restaurant where they didn't allow hats because they didn't want black customers.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:14Dax Shepard?

  So I think she's graphing on that.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  I'm saying maybe that has something to do with it.

• 22:17Dax Shepard?

  I don't think it did.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  I'll ask.

• 22:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because no student was like, what's the hat policy? Yeah, I'm not going to that one. You're going to whatever school in whatever district you're born in. You're not like shopping.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Where were you?

• 22:29Dax Shepard?

  In a suburb of Detroit.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 22:31Dax Shepard?

  And how did you do socially?

• 22:33Speaker 02

  I was fine. I think I got by.

• 22:36Dax Shepard?

  Middle school was rough, right?

• 22:37Speaker 02

  I had to change middle schools. Yeah.

• 22:38Dax Shepard?

  Okay, what happened in middle school?

• 22:40Speaker 02

  This fucking kid, I stole my brother Corey's cigarettes and we smoked a cigarette. And then he told the whole school that like I tied him down and forced him to.

• 22:50Dax Shepard?

  Forced him to smoke?

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was the thing that they bullied me for.

• 22:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  So funny.

• 22:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's very abstract.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  It's really abstract, but I think it turned a little gay. Like I pinned him down and forced him to.

• 23:01Dax Shepard?

  That was the subtext.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was the subtext.

• 23:03Dax Shepard?

  We're calling this a smoking infraction, but it's a gay infraction.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  It's a gay infraction for sure. So I just got completely tortured. And then I went to the new school in the new district and was like, I'm not going to be fucked with. I'm going to be the asshole.

• 23:16Dax Shepard?

  You made a pivot.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  And I was like the dick for a year.

• 23:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you were Jason Doring from also.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:22Dax Shepard?

  I think everyone in Orange County might have been Jason Doring's character.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  At some point, yeah, I think you have to be.

• 23:27Dax Shepard?

  Can you tell me about the loneliness of that middle school when you're getting bullied and the self consciousness? And you hear like the footsteps running and you're like, oh, fuck, is this fight for me? Do you have all that stuff?

• 23:39Speaker 02

  I was terrorized and getting beat up every day and getting shot down with like BB guns. And it was what you think of when you see school bully stuff on TV where you're like, that doesn't happen.

• 23:48Dax Shepard?

  And did you have any buddies that were like, I'm so sorry, this is happening?

• 23:51Speaker 02

  My brothers, Corey and Travis, they were like having my back and being protective. They were my friends.

• 23:57Dax Shepard?

  When does Corey start getting mixed up with drugs?

• 24:01Speaker 02

  He started using heroin at 14.

• 24:02Dax Shepard?

  At 14? How did that come into his purview?

• 24:05Speaker 02

  I think just friends. Heroin was really popular in San Diego. Like by the time I graduated, about eight people in my class had overdose.

• 24:12Dax Shepard?

  Really?

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:13Dax Shepard?

  Wowzers. Do you attribute that to its proximity to Mexico?

• 24:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, we would go to Tijuana and get drugs when we were kids and go at lunch and get tacos and drugs and then go back to school.

• 24:23Dax Shepard?

  I read that you would go to lunch to Tijuana.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:25Dax Shepard?

  That's crazy to me.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  What? How far is it?

• 24:28Speaker 02

  It was easier back then too, to go back and forth through the border, but it's probably a 30 minute, 20 minute drive. And then you just park your car at the McDonald's and walk over and then walk back.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. I had this girlfriend in high school who kind of like showed me the ropes and was iconic and was like, we're gonna go get all these stuff and I'm gonna come bring it back. And I guess maybe they knew where to go and where to get it, but I just remember it being so easy.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  That is wild.

• 24:52Dax Shepard?

  That's dangerous.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Very.

• 24:54Dax Shepard?

  If I could have left my high school in a half an hour of a mind, shit, that would have been problematic. Would you drink at lunch?

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, everything.

• 25:01Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Everything. I got it all out of my system by the time I was 18.

• 25:05Dax Shepard?

  But you go to your dad's house on Father's Day when you're 13 to see him. You spend the night.

• 25:11Speaker 02

  I can't believe this research. Holy shit.

• 25:14Dax Shepard?

  And what happens?

• 25:15Speaker 02

  I get Paris Hiltoned. I get kidnapped in the middle of the night and sent to a wilderness camp.

• 25:20Dax Shepard?

  Oh. It sounds so nice when you call it a wilderness camp.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:24Dax Shepard?

  So you had that full experience?

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got fully kidnapped.

• 25:27Dax Shepard?

  When it's happening, is your dad shouting, I arranged this. You're going to a wilderness camp. You're gonna be a great rappeller when you're done with this.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Don't worry, but do worry.

• 25:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  I think he couldn't even look at me.

• 25:38Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  I think he couldn't look at me and I remember calling out for his help and being like, this is your chance to make it right.

• 25:44Dax Shepard?

  What were the behavioral things that had led up to that decision on their part?

• 25:49Speaker 02

  I was a nightmare kid. I think not only was I starting to use substances as a really young age, I found out later that my mom, she was in cahoots with my dad about it. That was the biggest shock to me because I didn't think my mom would do that. But I think other than that, I mean, as a kid, I was crying out for attention, crying out for validation, screaming, fighting, biting. Literally bit kids all of elementary school.

• 26:14Dax Shepard?

  You were a biter.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  I was a biter.

• 26:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  So I definitely had behavioral problems.

• 26:18Dax Shepard?

  You always hear people talking about the biter in their school, but you don't ever meet the biter.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  The biter.

• 26:23Dax Shepard?

  Would you see like a little piece of a part of someone's body and be like, yeah, I'm gonna fucking sink my teeth into that? Do you remember any premeditation or was it very impulsive?

• 26:32Speaker 02

  No, it's not kooky like it is now.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  I think it would be like a kid would beat me on handball and like be mean to me about it. And then I'd be like, oh, I'm gonna fuck you up and like push him and bite him.

• 26:42Dax Shepard?

  And bite him.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  I would see red as a kid and I would go off and I got applauded for it too. My big brothers, they loved it. They would dare me. We loved Jackass growing up and all that stuff. So I'd get naked and go into like the Vons and scream.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  My god.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  But they would videotape me on their skateboard like, so I was rewarded for being a little shit.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  Obnoxious. And that was the way I got attention. That was the way I got validation. That was the way I felt like they loved me.

• 27:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  You know?

• 27:10Speaker 01

  I feel bad because like I am judgmental of anyone who sends their kid to a wilderness camp. But also I imagine being the parent.

• 27:18Dax Shepard?

  Totally. You're terrified, right?

• 27:19Speaker 01

  What do you do?

• 27:21Dax Shepard?

  You're like, they're gonna die.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 27:23Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna walk in and I'm gonna go to wake them up for school and they're gonna be dead. So whatever thing I'm gonna choose is gonna be less bad than that.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think my mom too, being a single mom, dealing with a kid that was using heroin. I think she was just like, I cannot deal with another nightmare. We have to reform this kid, get him away.

• 27:40Dax Shepard?

  And was Cory getting into legal trouble and medical issues? And so she was really at max capacity.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Deep in it and like working and trying to keep her head above water. It was, it was crazy.

• 27:51Dax Shepard?

  I think you have the thing I had, right? Which is like dad laughs, so dad's the villain and mom's an angel.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  No, my mom wasn't perfect either.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  But I love her and I ride for her no matter what, you know, like she's a badass and took care of us. And actually, I kind of get that, yeah.

• 28:05Dax Shepard?

  Cause you're like, oh, one stuck around and you're like, fuck, they got one stuck around. I really owe this one, you know, once you realize it's an option to leave.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  I was a momma's boy. I still am a momma's boy.

• 28:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's lovely.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:17Dax Shepard?

  So what was the wilderness camp like? Also, I'm sure the literature that was shown to them, the pamphlet, probably looked really constructive.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. It was like orange gro- like something really like happy and constructive. I remember them. Thinking it would be a good thing and it was just chicken in a bag, rice in a bag. Here's your tent, learn how to build it, go hike for like 12 hours, be alone. If I did something bad one day, like I wrote an SOS letter and like sent it around and ran away in the middle of the night. And like made it with like the arts and crafts. I crafted an SOS letter and they put me in isolation in the middle of the mountain for like a day. They would do the classic thing where they knock you down to build you back up and think that their system is the right way to do it. And just make you feel horrible about yourself.

• 29:00Dax Shepard?

  Did it have any positive impact on your behavior?

• 29:03Speaker 02

  No, I did the complete opposite. I rebelled twice as hard. When I came out, I fucking was even more of a nightmare. I didn't trust anybody.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  I fought with other kids. I don't know. It made me resilient, maybe.

• 29:16Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  I think in all fucked up things, but I don't even want to give them that.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  You know, but like, I guess every bad thing that has happened to me or every hardship I've gone through, I have learned something from it, I think.

• 29:28Dax Shepard?

  It's one more thing you're like, well, I, I survived that thing.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Proof of survival.

• 29:33Dax Shepard?

  I did. I want to be there. I lived and now I'm past that.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  I don't subscribe to what they did. That was another common thing in my high school was like people went to juvie and rehabs and Utah, like all these crazy places that were doing way worse shit. I was molested at a regular summer camp, not at that camp.

• 29:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Which you have really helped me with, by the way.

• 29:52Dax Shepard?

  Have I?

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Well, just the way that you talk about it, I've had a therapist tell me a hundred times, it's not your fault, it's not your fault. And when you talk, I think it was on Anna Kendrick's podcast or another podcast, you talked about, no matter how many times people can say that you felt like you were an active participant. There was a curiosity there.

• 30:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. There's so much culpability you're aware of. Mine was, I wanted this go-kart, you know, like I knew I should not be there.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:17Dax Shepard?

  I really wanted this go-kart. I was being promised that I could buy it for a very suspicious.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Buy it? You still had to buy it?

• 30:24Speaker 02

  You still had to buy it?

• 30:25Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  You didn't even get it for free?

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Oh, my fucking.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  It's a bad deal.

• 30:29Dax Shepard?

  This thing was worth like $500, but I was going to be able to buy it for a hundred and I had a whole plan. I was going to mow this many grasses and yeah.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  So sad.

• 30:37Dax Shepard?

  It's fucking gruesome. But I gotta tell you, man, I've had a new light shone on that whole experience. We had this expert who teaches at Johns Hopkins and she's the head of this program that does nothing but study child sexual abuse. And she's like 70% of sexual abuses by other. Kids.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 30:54Dax Shepard?

  And so although this dude was way older than me, he also wasn't 18. Now I don't know, like I used to have this guilt of like, fuck, I should have turned him in. I don't know how many people he fucked with, but now after talking to her, I'm like, I don't know that he ever did. I don't know.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:07Dax Shepard?

  Like it might've just been this weird fucking thing. I don't know if he was a pedophile or what.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  I get that, that your mind goes to like not being able to like, put it together, piece it together, what it actually was.

• 31:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  I think for so long I felt like, well, I wanted it.

• 31:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  And like my therapist could be like, well, you're in your twenties and would you hook up with a 10 year old? And I'm like, fuck, no.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  But it didn't matter. But when I heard you talk about that and the way that you had those conflicting thoughts about it, because you wanted that thing and you were looking for that thing that you felt so much guilt and shame. And to look back at little Dax and little Lucas and be like, yeah, but of course you did.

• 31:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you wanted to go.

• 31:45Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, yes, I did ignore my spidey senses.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 31:49Dax Shepard?

  I violated my body telling me something.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:52Dax Shepard?

  And also, yeah, I was a little kid who wanted a go kart and I can forgive that. I can't just pretend that I didn't get any signals. That was the part that was corrosive to me.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:00Dax Shepard?

  It's like, I knew there was some part of me that played a role, right?

• 32:05Speaker 02

  That's what I felt.

• 32:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I think that's where the real guilt is. I think people miss it. It hasn't happened to.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  I think so too. And I don't know if you did this, my go to was make a joke about it, being like, how could I not have been molested? Or I was like a slutty little 10 year old. Like that was my joke that I would go to it until my.

• 32:20Dax Shepard?

  You were irresistible.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  I was irresistible. Like, and my therapist was like, you have to stop doing this. You cannot use that as a coping mechanism. It's weird that I could have a medical professional tell me it a hundred times, but hearing you talk about that in that interview, really, really, really, really.

• 32:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that makes me really happy.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 32:43Dax Shepard?

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• 33:27Dax Shepard?

  Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club, Incorporated, an Allstate affiliate.

• 33:38Dax Shepard?

  It's funny you say that, though. Isn't it true there's such a power in watching someone else process something that can get through to you? Or if it's being directed at me, it can't. I remember there was a moment where Monica was getting interviewed by a therapist or hypnotist. And she was telling this story and I had seen her tell it a million times. And the therapist said, I don't know why you're smiling.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was Gabor Maté. Yeah.

• 34:02Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it was Gob, of course it was.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, he said, why are you smiling? He said, is it funny? And I was like, no. I mean, I was telling like a sad story or something. I don't remember what I was saying, but I said, no. And then he was like, why are you smiling? And then it wasn't rhetorical. He was really asking and I was like, I guess because I'm uncomfortable. And you really had to start like.

• 34:22Dax Shepard?

  Breaking it down.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Breaking it down.

• 34:24Dax Shepard?

  I did it earlier, too.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:25Dax Shepard?

  I get it.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:26Dax Shepard?

  I get it. I do it.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  It's almost like you want the other, you're signaling like, I'm good.

• 34:30Dax Shepard?

  I'm good. Don't feel bad. I want to make you comfortable so you don't feel like uncomfortable with my weird shit. With this awkward story, I'm telling you. A hundred percent.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm being vulnerable, but not too vulnerable so that you then feel uncomfortable.

• 34:43Dax Shepard?

  God, why do we do that?

• 34:44Speaker 01

  I know. Well, we're social animals.

• 34:47Dax Shepard?

  I can't resist but be this way. And I'm apologetic that I am. And then I'm going to try to make it as light as possible.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  But you're saying when that happened, you know that.

• 34:56Dax Shepard?

  When it happened to you.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, you realize you do it.

• 34:58Dax Shepard?

  And someone wasn't challenging me on why I was smiling. Like, I might have got defensive with that question.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:04Dax Shepard?

  Or made up some on the spot justification. But I just was watching my sweet friend smile at something that really didn't warrant smiling. And I thought, well, how sad on top of sad that that is happening. And then I was like, yeah, and I do that too.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Everyone does it.

• 35:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. What age do you get fixated on acting?

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Right after I got jumped. I did like little things as a kid and I would hide it. You know, I did a warts commercial and then fucking kids found it in high school. Oh, God.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Warts?

• 35:31Speaker 02

  Compound W, dude.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. I tried to hide it from the whole.

• 35:35Dax Shepard?

  Wait, hold on, hold on. Venereal warts?

• 35:36Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 35:38Dax Shepard?

  I got that later.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  I'm a kid!

• 35:39Speaker 02

  I got that later in life.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  We all have it.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  No, it was the compound W for warts on your fingers.

• 35:48Dax Shepard?

  Oh, rough.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:49Dax Shepard?

  Do you remember when you got the role, you're pumped, but you're also like, this is fucking career suicide for my high school?

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember feeling both of those things and just really trying to hide it. And I was hiding, like, doing plays and stuff in the town over because gay.

• 36:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you were obviously, you had a real secret.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot of secrets.

• 36:05Dax Shepard?

  They're corrosive. You said you have a cousin that came out gay and always knew, and you had some jealousy of that.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:12Dax Shepard?

  And then I guess that's interesting. It should be obvious. There's every version of everything on planet Earth, but I'm so used to hearing gay folks say like, oh, yeah, I always knew. And I kind of am interested in the notion that it could be a slower burn.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  I think honestly, a lot of it, like my first sexual experiences was, sorry to talk about molestation so much. Being molested by a guy. So there was a lot of that wrapped up into it. So I really loved these girlfriends I had. I was like obsessed with them. I was obsessed with love.

• 36:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  From a very young age. And I was so happy to just like be sexual and be physical and be in love with these girls. And if any kind of thought like that would go through my mind, I would justify it with like, well, I was molested though.

• 36:54Dax Shepard?

  That's like, yeah, some residual.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:57Dax Shepard?

  Trauma from that.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. I don't know if I blacked out before that of having that awareness, but I really don't think I did. I really think that any kind of inkling or curiosity or suspicion of it was. Then being like, but you got molested. That's why of course you feel that way sometimes, but like you love your girlfriend. You love your girlfriend and a part of you really did.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  And a part of me said something on some podcasts where I pissed people off or I said like I'm 10% straight or something. Cause like every once in a while I do have sex with girls. I know I'm pretty damn gay. You know, like I'm pretty gay.

• 37:33Dax Shepard?

  Do you watch English Teacher?

• 37:35Speaker 02

  I've watched English Teacher. Yeah.

• 37:36Dax Shepard?

  I love it so much. I think it's the funniest show ever.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  So funny.

• 37:39Dax Shepard?

  But in the second season, he goes and he's around either his sister or his female friend's fiance. And the guy is presenting as very, very gay, but he's saying he's bi. At some point, he confronts him. I don't know if you saw this scene. He's like, I don't know, man. You're reading very gay to me. Like what percentage? And the guy's like, well, I'm 90% gay and 10% bi. And he goes, so you're 5% straight.

• 38:07Dax Shepard?

  Or whatever the math was.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Maybe that's where I got it from. And like literally I leaked into my interview.

• 38:12Dax Shepard?

  Like he doesn't matter. Well, if you're 10% bi, you're really 5% straight.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Why are they mad about that? That's so crazy. It's just like everyone needs these boxes.

• 38:21Dax Shepard?

  Like you're either straight or you're gay.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  Someone is. You do? Tell me.

• 38:25Dax Shepard?

  I do. I know someone like this and it's all heartbreaking. This is all the byproduct of fucking being shit on and victimized. So it's like, there is a period for some gay dudes where they feel like the easier softer path is to say I'm bi.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 38:40Dax Shepard?

  You're still at least, right? By now, gay later. That's like a saying from the nineties when kids would first come out as bi. And so.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  What a stupid.

• 38:50Dax Shepard?

  By now, gay later. It's pretty good.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Kind of like it.

• 38:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's solid.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  Want to get a tattooed on me?

• 38:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. Lucas likes it.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  I like it. Yeah.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 38:58Dax Shepard?

  You've never heard that?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  I've never heard that.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  I've never heard it either.

• 39:01Dax Shepard?

  I think because in the nineties, people were starting to really identify as bi. It was our new thing. And then people were like, by now, gay later. But for those people who had that specific thing where they were just gay, but they were pretending to be bi to lessen the blow to everyone around them. They then realize I was being dishonest with myself. I'm 100% gay. So they're hearing your story and it's very easy for them to project, oh, he's still trying to preserve. He's got 10% of a toehold in his shame and that's why he's saying that.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  I know.

• 39:30Dax Shepard?

  But that's not fair to anyone.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  I mean, but maybe though, I feel like there was a part of me that was preserving it at first. When I first started experimenting with guys, I got hooked up with my neighbor. But then after that, I was like, okay, I'm only gonna hook up with couples. And it was a guy and a girl and that will be less, you know.

• 39:46Dax Shepard?

  This is like addiction stuff.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  Totally. Definitely was.

• 39:50Dax Shepard?

  Here's my fake roadblock. So it won't get worse.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 39:53Dax Shepard?

  Comportamentalize it. Well, that's one other thing I wanted to talk about is San Diego is a real military town.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:58Dax Shepard?

  And I'm imagining that kind of compounds the masculine vibe a little bit, like the hyper masculine vibe.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. There's a lot of that. It's a bro culture out there.

• 40:08Dax Shepard?

  That's where the Navy SEALs are based, right?

• 40:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a lot of them going around. I think especially when your dad leaves and you don't have like that male figure in your house. Well, I had a stepdad that was around for a little bit, but to look at that as what masculinity is as a teenager and having that around you and being like, oh, I have to be that.

• 40:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  Is probably why I was such an asshole when I went to my new school is like trying to emulate these Marines that were walking around my town. Cause I'm like, this is what it means to be a man and to not be fucked with.

• 40:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  You know?

• 40:36Dax Shepard?

  These guys are not getting beat up in the hallway.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no.

• 40:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  They're on grinder though.

• 40:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they sure are. I see these depicted in movies and it always breaks my heart. I think the maybe saddest thing that can happen to young gay boys is they end up having a secret relationship. And then like the toxic nature of the secrecy ends up being so cruel to one another. Cause they're both hiding and that seems to me to be the heartbreakingest part. Like you can't even have the beautiful, fun, loving fling. Did you have any of those situations?

• 41:08Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. I was super in love with my neighbor. The first guy I'd ever been with was with him for three years, hiding it for a year from everybody. And it was tearing him down that I had to finally, it was after a Little Mermaid audition that I came out to everybody.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  That's a good time to do it.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Great time to do it, right? I like started crying in the audition, so they're like, tell us the secret that you have. And I realized that this secret that was so fun at first and like made it so hot, like I think it's really sexy to have a secret until it's not, until it's just like eats you fucking

• 41:41Speaker 01

  up. When it's your identity.

• 41:43Dax Shepard?

  And then he wanted to be out loud about it and you didn't or vice versa?

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, he did, he did. He was really kind and really considerate and very like when you're ready, it's whatever. But then I think after years, like dude, come on, you gotta come clean.

• 41:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Was the pressure compounded by all these older brothers? I can't imagine that would help.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  I gotta give it to my brothers. They were pretty cool and pretty artsy, even though they beat me up, there was still like that side of them that didn't give a shit about that. But if I'm being honest, I think a lot of it came from Hollywood and the industry of being like, do not come out because you're only gonna play gay. You're only gonna be seen as the gay guy.

• 42:18Dax Shepard?

  And that was true.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  It was, and I think it's still a little bit true. I think it's definitely still, I mean, look, we have like Jonathan Bailey now, who's everyone's in love with.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Rightfully so, but like, there is still resistance met with like, can Lucas play a leading guy, you know?

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:36Dax Shepard?

  It's interesting. I know a very, very famous adored male actor who I know is gay, and I've never heard him say it in public, and he plays a lot of sexy hetero dudes. And I do wonder, like, is he not telling anyone because of that? And then also if people knew, would that impact? You never know, like, I don't know when that time has come. I remember when Anne Heche was in the movie with Harrison Ford and she had just come out and people were like, what? How am I gonna buy into that she's in love with Harrison? But forget the age gap.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:12Dax Shepard?

  That wasn't our issue.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Who cares about that?

• 43:15Dax Shepard?

  That's fine.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  That's normal.

• 43:17Dax Shepard?

  That makes sense. But what about her being lesbian? I guess that's the only thing like, I don't love the idea that people can't play other people.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  I hate it.

• 43:25Dax Shepard?

  That's bullshit. The only time I was ever defensive of it is I was like, when straight dudes were getting cast as famous gay characters, I was like, well, y'all, if you're not gonna give them the fucking straight roles.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:35Dax Shepard?

  You cannot take the gay role.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  There's gonna be none left.

• 43:38Dax Shepard?

  That did feel uniquely unfair to me.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree with you on that part. I did feel that way, but with every other scenario, I get really territorial and defensive of people when they come for them.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  I think it's bullshit.

• 43:50Dax Shepard?

  Let's go through the timeline of, of starting to work. What age were you?

• 43:55Speaker 02

  I think I was like 20 or 21 when I did American Bandol. That was good. It was a recurring role on a Netflix show that people liked. And then I did this kid show with Claudia, actually. I was tagged at the same time or the year before that. That's where I met Claudia. Claudia Schu is one of the best people of all time.

• 44:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  We love her so much. And then I think it was a year or two after that, it must've been 22, 23. I reach out to Sam Levinson because I saw Another Happy Day. It reminded me of my family. I wrote this long letter. He says that he's doing this movie in New Orleans right now. And I like convince a New Orleans agent. I'd lie to them and say I live in New Orleans.

• 44:39Dax Shepard?

  Local hire.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Local hire.

• 44:40Dax Shepard?

  Save a couple bucks for production.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  I meet him, I lie, I get on a plane, I work with him. And then a year later, he put me in Euphoria. So that's where it really all.

• 44:49Dax Shepard?

  Cause the part of the story I really wanna learn about, you were getting accused of queer baiting.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Why would you be accused of it?

• 44:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so they thought you were straight in acting. What did they think?

• 45:00Speaker 02

  They were like, you're taking gay roles and you're straight.

• 45:04Dax Shepard?

  There we go.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:05Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  And you're like, but I'm.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  But I love Britney Spears and I'm making out with men.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 45:13Dax Shepard?

  It was obviously, that's an online thing?

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:15Dax Shepard?

  So when do you become aware of it?

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Immediately. You're checking your Instagram and your Twitter and you're getting DMs all the time.

• 45:22Dax Shepard?

  And what kind of things would people say?

• 45:23Speaker 02

  Just like, you're a piece of shit. How dare you take, you know? And I'm just like reading them and at first it's funny and I'm like, God, you guys have no idea. And then it starts to really. Piss you off. I had this like viral tweet moment where someone said like, I hate him and I hate his fucking face and I hate that he takes roles from gay people. And I wrote something, I think I was drunk when I wrote it, but I wrote like, you don't know my alphabet or something like that. And then he's like, well, inform us. And then I just wrote no with a heart and people liked it, I guess. And I think that they were like, good for him for not feeling like he has to disclaim what he is to some troll on the internet.

• 46:01Dax Shepard?

  Again, it's one of these things where you really can't ever win.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  You can't ever win. Then the next year you get married to a guy on the Kardashians and then they fucking hate your guts. So it's just like, you cannot.

• 46:11Dax Shepard?

  You go all the way with it.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  And that's too much.

• 46:13Dax Shepard?

  And they hate that.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 46:15Dax Shepard?

  So how much was it affecting you and how did you decide to then be public about it? And was it motivated by that, like to shut these people out?

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Maybe there was some defiance in me to be like, I'm gonna push back and be so on your fucking face about it. But then another part of me was in a weird area where I got manic and married a stranger after a couple of weeks of knowing them.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Wait, what? Okay. So we need to pause here.

• 46:41Dax Shepard?

  And again, this might be fun for you because I know when I'm inside of crisis things, I just am convinced everyone knows about it. So one thing is like, I didn't know about the viral moment with the director.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  Oh, great. I love that.

• 46:55Dax Shepard?

  I didn't know about that.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  I don't know either.

• 46:56Dax Shepard?

  And you didn't know about it. Ryan Hansen, he knows everything.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Of course, he's very into that.

• 47:00Dax Shepard?

  I'm interviewing him on Wednesday. I'm afraid to talk to him. I don't want to ruin it. He's like, oh yeah. He had that like really cool thing where he posted. Well, you tell the story. I know you're sick of it. I'm just here to show you that truly a lot of people have no clue.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Until now.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  I love that you guys don't know. I mean, it's great. Basically, it was like the first audition during COVID. It was a Zoom. Everyone turns their cameras off. It goes quiet. They're like, you ready to go? The director forgot to mute his microphone. So he's like with his wife or somebody. He's like, oh my God, look at this poor actor and this shitty apart. No, I didn't say shitty.

• 47:33Dax Shepard?

  Tiny apartment.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  Tiny apartment with a TV and a bed and a sofa in the same room as each other. And then I was just like, oh, your mic's still on.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 47:41Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really quick.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:44Dax Shepard?

  That's a decision. You've made a choice. You're a real actor because you're like, I could have pretended I didn't hear this.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:50Dax Shepard?

  And he'll never know. Or maybe he'll notice.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  How could you not say it though?

• 47:55Dax Shepard?

  But I think a lot of people would have just pretended it didn't happen.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So I love, okay, so what did you say exactly?

• 48:01Speaker 02

  I was like, I know that it's a shitty apartment, but if you get me this job, I'll get a better apartment.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's great.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  And it was true. I loved the apartment. It was a cute little studio apartment down the road. And then I made it as a part of like an improv of the scene. Like I incorporated it. Maybe I probably did it a little too much.

• 48:18Dax Shepard?

  Sure, a little heavy handed.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  You went back a little while a little bit.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  I was like, yeah, you can come back to my tiny apartment later. Like I would start using it and then.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  If you hadn't called him out and then you did the audition and you said tiny apartment in the audition.

• 48:32Dax Shepard?

  He would have, his face would have caught on fire.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's the real move.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  That was probably the smarter move. Yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Okay. So you got the role?

• 48:42Speaker 02

  No, no, I didn't get the role.

• 48:43Dax Shepard?

  But there's a happy ending.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  The next audition was White Lotus.

• 48:48Dax Shepard?

  Come on.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Hell yeah. You got rewarded.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  So if I got that one, I wouldn't have been done White Lotus. And then after a night of fun during White Lotus, a couple of months later, I decided to post the video.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Oh, because you had recorded it?

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Well, we had to record it on our end.

• 49:02Dax Shepard?

  You gotta send it.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  We had to be like our cinematographer and our editor and this. And I was like, so annoying.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  And so I posted it and woke up to a hundred calls and like a hundred thousand requests.

• 49:14Dax Shepard?

  It's very viral.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  It was really viral.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 49:16Dax Shepard?

  Ryan Hansen saw it. He knew the whole story. He loved it by the way.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 49:21Dax Shepard?

  He's like, oh, the way he handled it was so cool.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  When that video happened, I was like a champion for actors, right? Or a month. And then the month later, I was a fucking liar. I was the kid who conned a video with a director.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  To get sympathy to get on White Lotus.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Oh, that was the narrative they spent.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  That was the next narrative.

• 49:44Dax Shepard?

  Wait, how could you have possibly manipulated the guy into talking about your apartment?

• 49:48Speaker 02

  Released a statement apologizing. I'm like, how could I pull this out? They're like, that's the greatest marketing move ever.

• 49:55Dax Shepard?

  It's insane what people believe versus the real things they refuse to believe.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  I know.

• 50:00Dax Shepard?

  The chasm between what's being ignored about objective reality and then embraced about fucking conspiracies is mind blowing.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  It's insane.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Just like the back and forth of like people loving me and saying I'm a hero to being like this guy is a fucking piece of shit. And we hate him.

• 50:16Dax Shepard?

  And the ride you're on.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:18Dax Shepard?

  It hijacks your dopamine system, even if you're not prone to mania, it can put you there.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:25Dax Shepard?

  What was happening like emotionally, I heard you say like, it really sucked. I had a moment as an actor. I had some pop. I was on some shit. And then I kind of didn't have that. And then I had this moment. It's like, I don't know what you'd even call that.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Like a public facing.

• 50:37Dax Shepard?

  A public face. And you said like, this feels like a 15 minutes of fame thing, which I don't like. It probably was all so complicated. I would have loved being a hero for a month.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:46Dax Shepard?

  That would have been great.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  But even that is like, not the right messaging to give somebody. I think that can fuck you up too.

• 50:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Cause it's fraudulent. No one's a hero.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  None of this is fucking real.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  And it doesn't matter. But I think I was just so narcissistic at that time and like so obsessed of what everyone was saying and so focused on myself.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Hard not to.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  It's hard not to. And then you're like, oh, Jesus. Now I'm just famous for this thing. No one's ever gonna take me seriously as an actor. Well, it's like all that stuff takes precedent of all the hard work that I'd put in for a decade that I was really trying to focus on that. And suddenly it's just only the headlines that people know you from.

• 51:21Dax Shepard?

  So I rewatched a bunch of your scenes on White Lotus today. You're so fucking great on that dude. You're so great on it. You have like a real, unique point of view as that character.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  Watching Jennifer Coolidge and Murray Bartlett and Molly Shannon on set, that's like the best comedy lesson. They are unreal. The coolest people ever. And we got so close on that show.

• 51:44Dax Shepard?

  You guys were all living at that Four Seasons in Maui.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  We were living in the Four Seasons.

• 51:46Dax Shepard?

  During COVID?

• 51:47Speaker 02

  During COVID. No one lived there but us.

• 51:49Dax Shepard?

  Oh, dude.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  And like the expectation wasn't there yet.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  We didn't know what it was gonna be.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was just like, oh, this fun show, but then it's the biggest show.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  I just learned so much from them about, I think what I was talking about with Doug Liman too, actually is like not going in with a plan. And not being like, I'm a good student and I'm prepared and look at like all the choices I made last night. That doesn't fucking matter. You're gonna find something better on the day that's fresh. The camera loves that. And so just watching them every take do something different.

• 52:18Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 52:19Speaker 02

  As, you know, a 25 year old green actor was like, oh, you can do that? You're allowed to go outside of this parameter? Try a bunch of shit and it's okay if you eat shit because they won't use it.

• 52:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Or maybe they will.

• 52:32Dax Shepard?

  Well, you were protected by Mike White, who has an impeccable, amazing taste.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Yes, perfect.

• 52:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Did you hang with him a bit?

• 52:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love Mike. He's the best.

• 52:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he's a very fascinating dude.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  The most fascinating, smart guy I've ever met, I think.

• 52:48Dax Shepard?

  Disarming too. You're like, hold on, that guy's the showrunner?

• 52:51Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 52:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  I know.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  He hasn't figured out. That's, I was just gonna say, I'm like, I wanna like, make a show, be a director, a writer, go to fucking Survivor and the Amazing Race and then come back to HBO.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, right?

• 53:04Speaker 02

  That's so cool.

• 53:05Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  This does whatever the fuck he wants to do.

• 53:08Dax Shepard?

  And go like, when do I most wanna be in another country?

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Oh, I think summer would be fun.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Oh, dreamy.

• 53:16Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  What are these notes on me? Can I read them?

• 53:18Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Oh, that'd be so scary. No.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  I'm trying to think of something, Tara. I don't even want to do it.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  I can tell you, this has happened a couple of times, that you expect people to think that. You expect people to not like you or to have an idea about you.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  Well, I think I, I go in, I humiliate myself or make fun of myself before they can beat me to the punch.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's your armor.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I expect it.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  But it's not happening over here anyway.

• 53:46Dax Shepard?

  I like you. I liked you when I met you in Austin. I have nothing but good feelings about you. Okay, Fargo.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 53:52Dax Shepard?

  How do you get that role? Walk me through getting that role.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  I was in London. I self taped myself for, I think, every, I don't know if you experienced this as an actor, where they would have you audition for the guy. They love you, but they're like, he's just not right. But we're gonna bring him back for this one and then this one. Like, that was the trajectory of every single Euphoria, White Lotus, Fargo, you. Every single time, it's like, they bring me in for something else and they don't know what to do with me.

• 54:20Dax Shepard?

  But they're intrigued. They're intrigued.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's great. Yeah, there's something there. And I think that was another scenario where I was like, I love this show. I wanna work with Noah Hawley. I'm just gonna keep auditioning and keep sending tapes until he says yes.

• 54:31Dax Shepard?

  And so that character. Was obviously written, you auditioned for that?

• 54:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:36Dax Shepard?

  It's not like he had seen you trying all these other characters and they're like, oh, let's.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  You know what? Actually, I think in that one, I think I tried out for like Joe Keery's role and another guy. And I got close and then I think he was like, just give him that one.

• 54:48Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it was, I think it was that situation on that one.

• 54:52Dax Shepard?

  Oh my God, are you great in that?

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're great.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 54:54Dax Shepard?

  Fuck.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Wait, did you say you, a show on Netflix?

• 54:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't remember.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  I'm in the London season.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  I love that one.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  The American that gets peed on.

• 55:03Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you got peed on?

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  The piss fetish.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 55:07Dax Shepard?

  Tell me.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  No, I can't. I want to spoil it. I don't want to spoil it.

• 55:09Dax Shepard?

  Sounds like it's already been spoiled. He gets peed on?

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Well, a lot happens.

• 55:13Dax Shepard?

  He got shit on as well?

• 55:14Speaker 01

  A lot happens in that show. I got obsessed with that show like last year, I think. And every time I would come into the fact check, I was like, okay, so I'm watching you, a show on Netflix. Cause it kept getting confused.

• 55:25Dax Shepard?

  I prefer that she said, I'm watching a show on Netflix called You, but she refused to do that and she had always gone, I'm watching you.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  That happened a lot.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  A show on Netflix.

• 55:32Dax Shepard?

  Lauren Bergman.

• 55:35Dax Shepard?

  Lauren Borgenberg.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, um, what's her name from Fox News?

• 55:39Dax Shepard?

  Lauren Bergman.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 55:41Dax Shepard?

  Laura Ingraham.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  Laura Ingraham.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  Have you seen this?

• 55:44Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 55:47Dax Shepard?

  I don't have a show on, what? What's he talking about? So stupid. I'm on a show on Netflix? What?

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Called You?

• 55:54Dax Shepard?

  Called You?

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Oh, it's worth, that's worth a rewind.

• 55:57Dax Shepard?

  About diabetes? Like there's another.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  No measles.

• 55:59Dax Shepard?

  About measles?

• 56:01Speaker 01

  We didn't do a show on measles.

• 56:02Dax Shepard?

  We didn't do a show on measles? Oh my God.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  Oh my God, that's so funny. Yeah, that clip.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Anyway, I love that show.

• 56:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you come off Fargo.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:12Dax Shepard?

  I want to know how we get to the marriage on the Kardashians, which is a spectacular thing to be. I know, I'm sure it's loaded for you.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  IMDB credit, honestly.

• 56:20Dax Shepard?

  You're gonna be on your deathbed one day, as we all will be. And I promise you, you're gonna be like, I'm so glad I got married on the Kardashians. Like, fuck it, man. It's one trip on planet earth.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  I think it's iconic. I think it's so funny. It's so stranger than fiction. If you wrote that down on a piece of paper, like of a script in my life, I would be like, there's no way that's gonna happen.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Well, what happened? I don't even know.

• 56:42Dax Shepard?

  So let's just talk about you met Chris.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  I met this dude. I met this guy.

• 56:46Dax Shepard?

  What were you like mentally when you met?

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Not great.

• 56:49Dax Shepard?

  Okay, what version of not great?

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Long story short is I was in another relationship that had ended. I was devastated, completely horrible. It screwed me up so bad that it's so embarrassing. I don't give a shit. I was crying on set and they called my reps and they were like, this kid keeps crying on set. Like, is he okay?

• 57:09Dax Shepard?

  On Fargo?

• 57:10Speaker 02

  No, it was on.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  You were showing that?

• 57:13Speaker 02

  No, it was on the show called Dead Boy Detectives that I was on Netflix. Yeah, it's better.

• 57:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was like in a cat prosthetic crying.

• 57:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Yeah, you could have pointed a lot of fingers at that moment.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, go on. I love that show, though.

• 57:25Dax Shepard?

  It's the best show ever.

• 57:26Speaker 02

  Best show ever.

• 57:27Dax Shepard?

  Still, you're in a cat outfit.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm the cat king. So I'm crying and someone had called my people. My people were like, what is wrong with you? And then I started crying with them and I was like, no one loves me. I'm gonna die alone. This career doesn't matter or nothing. That was like a real existential place of like, nothing matters and I just want to be in love. They were like, you need to go somewhere. So they made me check into a place. They wouldn't give me another audition.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  Until I checked on myself.

• 57:52Dax Shepard?

  These are very ethical reps.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Cause they were like, you're depressed.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  And then in this episode, I fired him. One of the biggest mistakes I've ever made.

• 57:59Dax Shepard?

  You can mend that.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  There's chances.

• 58:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, that's totally salvageable.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  I go to this place. They put me on the most insane cocktail medications. They give me my diagnosis that I have borderline personality disorder.

• 58:12Dax Shepard?

  How quick does it take them to determine that?

• 58:15Speaker 02

  Couple of weeks. And then I was fighting them on it, still fight them on it.

• 58:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  We'll get back to that.

• 58:20Dax Shepard?

  Did you listen to our episode on borderline personality disorder?

• 58:22Speaker 02

  No, I need to listen to that one.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  It's very interesting.

• 58:25Dax Shepard?

  It's incredible. I'm so glad we did it. And we've run into people in real life. This waitress came up to me and was like, you just can't imagine how much I appreciate that episode. Like I battled this thing. And I was like, yeah, dude, it's like everything else. It's just one more thing that someone's like fucking contending with. It really shined a wonderful light on it all. Cause we were just like, ooh, BDP, it's scary.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have the same thing. I resisted it and I was like, we over pathologize everybody and just like put this thing on them. And that's who you are and you have this albatross around your neck. So I fought with it a lot and I have a lot of people in my life who would be like, you a hundred percent have it. And I think especially that saw me in that period would be like, without a doubt.

• 59:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  So they put me on these meds, was not the right meds. They over medicated me.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:09Speaker 02

  And I was really not myself. I was straightening my hair, changing all my clothes, just being. Manic, I really was.

• 59:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, untethered.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I meet Chris, it's like this whirlwind romance, it's moving at the speed of light. Every date is a string quartet.

• 59:25Dax Shepard?

  He's also gorgeous. I didn't know of him until today.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:28Dax Shepard?

  He's fucking gorgeous. He's got an accent. He's also dialed into the Kardashian world. That's fun. Especially if I'm 29.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 59:36Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, this is very fun.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  It was fun and it was really that feeling that I was searching for so long or what I thought it was of like being lovable and having someone that did these grand gestures of love. So when he proposed really early on, I said, yeah.

• 59:50Dax Shepard?

  How quickly? Couple months?

• 59:52Speaker 02

  Less.

• 59:54Dax Shepard?

  Okay, couple hours?

• 59:55Speaker 02

  No. Couple weeks.

• 59:57Dax Shepard?

  Couple weeks.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Couple weeks.

• 59:58Dax Shepard?

  Is there any voice in your head going like, we know statistically the two week engagements generally? Like, was there any rational things poking holes?

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  There was some rationale going on in my brain, but I think I was so wounded from that last relationship and wanted to feel loved so bad and wanted to be like, fuck it. It's bold to be in love. It's brave to be in love. Stop protecting your heart. Just go with it. But I think that there was a part of my head that was like, this is too fast.

• 1:00:23Dax Shepard?

  And there's an illusion that marriage is a turnkey mooring of yourself to something. Like, there is some idea that it's going to be stability, but it's not at all stability.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  Not at all. And I've never had any model of a marriage that was shown to me that was stable in my life. So I had no idea what the fuck that was.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  And if you're manic, I mean, that's just like dopamine.

• 1:00:45Dax Shepard?

  So I get you saying yes. That makes total sense. This guy's a fucking babe. He's got his own thing going. When is it proposed? Well, let's do this marriage on the Kardashian show.

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  So basically, I'd always talked about how I love Shania Twain.

• 1:01:00Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  We love it.

• 1:01:01Dax Shepard?

  Us too.

• 1:01:01Speaker 02

  I mean, obsessed. I wrote in my journal as a kid, like, still the one is gonna be my marriage song.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  Once I beat her on American Idol, like, I would just lie to my journal all the time and like, say crazy shit. But I love Shania Twain. And so then a couple of weeks after the proposal, he's like, we gotta get married. This weekend. I'm like, what? No. I thought it was gonna be like a long proposal. Yeah. And he's like, just trust me on it.

• 1:01:28Dax Shepard?

  Okay, big surprise.

• 1:01:29Speaker 02

  Big surprise.

• 1:01:30Dax Shepard?

  And you're manic. You love surprises.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the thing. I'm like, let's jump out of an airplane. Let's fucking go.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Dax Shepard?

  Throw me out of a moving car.

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  Shania Twain was in Vegas that weekend. So Shania Twain performed at my wedding.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  No way.

• 1:01:44Dax Shepard?

  Hold on a second. I need more of the pieces. She's performing in Vegas.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:48Dax Shepard?

  And you guys are gonna go to Vegas?

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  It was that weekend. She had a show there.

• 1:01:53Dax Shepard?

  And the Kardashians were gonna be there attending the show and filming?

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  No, Kim's his best friend and doing his hair. And she was our hookup with Shania. So they had planned this whole thing. And I go to Buffalo Bills, which is so weird. It's where I went every year. I was like an 11, 12 year old, 13 year old. That was my birthday party. My mom loved to gamble. That was our treat was we take an RV and go to this place. And I walk in and it's just Kim and Chris and Shania Twain.

• 1:02:20Dax Shepard?

  Do you start crying when you see Shania?

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  I lose my fucking shit. Sobbing.

• 1:02:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  Sobbing.

• 1:02:27Dax Shepard?

  And how did she handle it? Probably pretty well.

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  She was great.

• 1:02:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  It's also thoughtful. Is that Buffalo?

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  It was really, yeah, it was thoughtful. I think that was a coincidental thing, actually. She just was playing that night at Buffalo Bills. But maybe, we'll go with it was thoughtful. Yeah. We'll go with it was really thought out.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  Or simp.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  No, but I mean, the fact that they pulled that off is insane. That literally was a dream come true.

• 1:02:48Dax Shepard?

  By the way, speaking as a love addict, like I understand sex and love addiction. I get it.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:02:53Dax Shepard?

  It's the best high in the world.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I lost the other stuff and became addicted to sex and love.

• 1:02:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's tasty. Keeps working until it doesn't. Then you're scared.

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  I keep gassing you guys up, but I really will say that this show was what made me go to Sla.

• 1:03:09Dax Shepard?

  Really?

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:03:11Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  That's so nice.

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  Not to keep kissing your ass.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. No, we'll take it. That's really amazing.

• 1:03:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my Lord.

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:20Dax Shepard?

  I think I'm gonna retire.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  No, you gotta help more people. Yeah. You gotta keep talking about this stuff.

• 1:03:27Dax Shepard?

  Would my instinct be like, I should stop this? Wait, did something that helped you? I should stop this.

• 1:03:35Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:03:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you meet her, that goes well. You cry, did she hug you?

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. She held me. Kim is amazing.

• 1:03:55Dax Shepard?

  She's great, right? Everyone loves Kim.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  So generous, planned this whole thing, paid for everything, took care of my family, and we're dancing with Usher. It's like a fucking fever dream of like, what is happening? How is this my life?

• 1:04:09Dax Shepard?

  Your mom came?

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Dax Shepard?

  So she's having fun and she's gotta be nervous for you as well, no?

• 1:04:14Speaker 02

  My whole family and all my friends were very nervous for me and very concerned for me while trying to be there for me. And being like, he's happy, he's in love. Gotta be there for him.

• 1:04:24Dax Shepard?

  He was very depressed three weeks ago, but now-

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Right after you got out of a facility. That's a lot, that's a lot.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  I think everyone was saying, maybe we should just slow the breaks down a little bit. And I was like, fuck you. I'm in love.

• 1:04:37Dax Shepard?

  You don't know. You don't know what real love is.

• 1:04:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:40Dax Shepard?

  Now, this is where I can relate to. It's like, on some level, I have this story about me as an addict, which is like, I generally didn't put people out. Like, I pride myself on that. I didn't owe a bunch of people money. I didn't steal from my friends.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  You stole from them?

• 1:04:52Dax Shepard?

  I didn't steal, but I thought relatively I had created less wreckage than a lot of the addicts I knew. But what I'm not wanting to acknowledge is like, that moment that I'm putting everyone in all the time. It's just like, he seems like he's doing really good, but they know I missed my birthday party like a week ago, right? Or I didn't show up for Christmas. You underestimate the toll of that. Like, is he good? He's good? Okay.

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  It's a lot. It's a lot.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  I actually had Claudia say to me at the barbecue we had the other day, like, "I was really worried about you for a second. I was really worried we lost you for a minute."

• 1:05:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  And just to hear like how concerned all my friends were that loved me and adored me.

• 1:05:35Dax Shepard?

  What I would want for you is for you to hear, oh yeah, you're very loved.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:05:39Dax Shepard?

  But what I would hear is like, fuck, I'm such a piece of shit. I've made these people worry. Like, in the moment that I should be receiving the love, I would be self-flagellating.

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  For the first time in my life, I didn't go to that. I went to like, God, I'm so lucky that I have these people who- Or my ride or dies who have been through me when I was a shitty friend to them and like went MIA and got married and didn't invite any of them.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Well, you weren't in charge.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  That wasn't really in charge of it. That's true. That's true. Thank you, Monica.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  But also what's so sad about this is like you're doing all this to feel loved.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Right. But you are loved. You have all these people that are there that are like hardcore there for you, but you can't see that.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:21Dax Shepard?

  Well, and it doesn't get you high. The real love doesn't get you high.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  I think it's how I feel about attention and life with acting and stuff. It's like, I wanted it so bad and then I got it and I didn't believe anyone. And I couldn't accept it. I wanted love. I couldn't accept it.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  It's sad.

• 1:06:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. We live all these paradoxes. Like, yeah, we want this thing. We're gonna feel a certain way when we get this thing. We get that thing. It doesn't feel right. We didn't earn it. We don't deserve it. And then I feel worse and you're like, what is the goddamn solution?

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  It's so fucking contradictory. Like, it doesn't make sense. But you're right. Like, I had it in front of me the whole time and I was just searching out there for something else.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  We sabotage so much just as people in the search for this thing. You maybe let go of the real thing that's there.

• 1:07:08Dax Shepard?

  And then there's just like, I don't know, you've always been a wild fucking obnoxious dude and I was too. It's like the highs are high. You're chasing high highs.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Dax Shepard?

  You know, other people aren't chasing that moment with Shania Twain.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:19Dax Shepard?

  And it's like, you know, you reap what you sow. It's like, I like it fucking hot and heavy. Let's.

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Dax Shepard?

  And I'll pay the.

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  But then you get it and then you're like, what's next?

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  A low low comes after a high high.

• 1:07:31Dax Shepard?

  Well, the drug stops working. As all drugs stop working.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  You have to come down and then you're withdrawing and then you feel like, what am I gonna fill it up with next?

• 1:07:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay. So wow. The only thing I didn't get out of this, when we start filming, the nuptials are on camera?

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I um.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  That was a hmm.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Surprise.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:53Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay, you're right. Okay.

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  I thought I was going to be talking about the engagement on the phone and then, yeah.

• 1:08:00Dax Shepard?

  And then you were in front of a film crew.

• 1:08:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:02Dax Shepard?

  What was happening in your body while you were?

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  Left my body, not there.

• 1:08:06Dax Shepard?

  See you later.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  Don't remember what happened, blacked out and not even from drugs or alcohol, just wasn't there.

• 1:08:12Dax Shepard?

  I'll wake up when it's less intense. This seems overwhelming.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  I remember I wrote my vows and my notes pad on my phone and then I got up there and they all deleted in my pocket.

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  My gosh.

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  And this is the only memory I have is.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Like a true nightmare, honestly.

• 1:08:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  It's like my nightmare.

• 1:08:29Dax Shepard?

  You'd be like, I gotta wake up from this.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, gotta wake up, wake up, wake up. And I texted my friend, my one friend Phoebe, who I write with, and I had her proofread it before I went up and I said, don't make it obvious, but text me my vows right now. And I tried to like play it cool.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  That I didn't have my vows. God, it's so crazy. You can't write this. It's so insane.

• 1:08:51Dax Shepard?

  It's pretty great.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  It's a story.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  Funny. It's such a good chapter in the book of my life.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:58Dax Shepard?

  So you wrote all this and I wrote this for attention.

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  My premature memoir.

• 1:09:02Dax Shepard?

  No, I really like it. I like that you're like, I prefer when I've read memoirs of people who don't have it all figured out. And it's like more midway through or whatever, we're on the journey. We're not reflecting on all the lessons we've learned, which I like too.

• 1:09:15Speaker 02

  No, I don't care about that.

• 1:09:16Dax Shepard?

  Let's just start with, I'm impressed you finished a memoir.

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  Funny dude, hardest thing I've ever done.

• 1:09:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:09:21Dax Shepard?

  I've been writing one for four years now. And when you're doing a memoir, it's like, there's just stuff hovering that you know you're supposed to tell. And it's just like, I can't get motivated to tackle this chapter.

• 1:09:31Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:32Dax Shepard?

  What were the hardest ones? Obviously, I would imagine you admitting the diagnosis would be really hard.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was really hard. It's like that liability that you're marked with for the rest of your life. And same with the gay shit. It was like, okay, well then I'm that and now you're only seen as that. And am I now a gay actor? And I'm a gay actor with a personality disorder. Holy shit, let's not hire him. Fuck this kid. But then I was really inspired by, you know, like Julia Fox. And all these other amazing people that are so honest about it and forthcoming. That was the shit that helped me talk about it and not feel so alone about it. And if we can't be honest, we can't be authentic, what do we have?

• 1:10:12Dax Shepard?

  Well, again, back to the deathbed.

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:14Dax Shepard?

  It's like, dude, are you gonna lay there and be like, well, I never was myself and now it's over. That to me, sounds like the nightmare of all nightmares.

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:22Dax Shepard?

  I'd way rather been like, no, I was me out loud and a lot of people didn't like it, but I found the people that do like it. And that's preferred, in my opinion.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was that that really inspired this book. I think the most dishonest part of the book is the title of the book, really, because I didn't really write it for attention.

• 1:10:38Dax Shepard?

  That's the title. I wrote this for attention.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  Such a good title.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's great.

• 1:10:41Speaker 02

  I love the title. The idea came the week that I got the divorce. My grandma died and I'm getting confused online as a Nazi, because there was a Nazi influencer named Lukas Gage with a C.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:10:57Dax Shepard?

  The hits are coming fast.

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  Seeing my dad for the first time in five or 10 years. So I'm like, fuck, this is the most insane week of my life and all this noise.

• 1:11:07Dax Shepard?

  You hadn't seen your dad and then you had to see him immediately after getting divorced?

• 1:11:11Speaker 02

  Yes, and with his mom dying.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  Oh, because of the funeral.

• 1:11:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:11:15Dax Shepard?

  Lucas, this is a lot.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  And while I'm doing it, I'm checking Twitter to see what a cheater I am or that I'm a Nazi now. And I'm like, holy fuck, what have I done with my life?

• 1:11:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  And why do I care? And why am I feeding into this like disgusting attention well of like what people that I don't know about me think about me?

• 1:11:35Dax Shepard?

  Why am I like this?

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  Why am I like this?

• 1:11:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:11:37Dax Shepard?

  That's the question.

• 1:11:38Speaker 02

  That was really, that's why it started. That was the whole. And that was gonna be the intro of the book and it ended up being the conclusion of the book by the time I was finished. But that was where it started.

• 1:11:48Dax Shepard?

  So for the people who didn't listen to our BDP episode, explain to us what they told you.

• 1:11:54Speaker 02

  Of what borderline personality disorder is?

• 1:11:55Dax Shepard?

  How do they explain it to you?

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  Not well. If you can feel any resistance that I have about it or any kind of angst when I'm talking about it, it's more about the place that I went to. They were just like, you're splitting. Which if you don't know what splitting is, it's like you can't see the gray in anything. It's like either you're the love of my life, or if you fuck me over, I want you dead and I never want to talk to you again.

• 1:12:16Dax Shepard?

  There's a bunch of weird little sayings to describe BDP. They're either at your feet or your neck.

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:12:22Dax Shepard?

  Right? That's one I just heard from a therapist recently.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  That's exactly distilled down is like we have a volatile reactive reactions to emotions, I think. And we genuinely, a lot of times put a lot of codependence and importance on one person, which they call like your favorite person.

• 1:12:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  And if that person is the orbit of your whole entire world and just all relationships are very unstable and intense. Another thing that I left out of why I went there is I got really angry when I was having these crying spells and I punched my hand through a window.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:12:57Speaker 02

  And had to get stitches. So that turned into he's suicidal.

• 1:13:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like a 51 50 situation, 100%.

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  So it was like self harm. That was the thing I kept on saying to this facility. You know, they were like out of the nine traits of it, you have all nine. And I'm like, it says I'm suicidal. I don't have that. And they're like, you do.

• 1:13:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, I don't like that.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  So it's not that I am pissed off about the diagnosis so much. I'm pissed off about the way that they went about it.

• 1:13:25Dax Shepard?

  The delivery system of the diagnosis.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  They were listening to you.

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  No, I don't feel like that. Same thing I feel about all these places that were supposed to help kids. It's like you take these vulnerable people, these vulnerable people that are dealing with these intense emotions and stamp them with a label and throw a bunch of drugs at them. And that's it.

• 1:13:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. And then tough love them.

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  I don't like it.

• 1:13:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but just a counterpoint, I will say it's also common for someone to go into their first AA meeting. There's like 12 steps, right? And one of them says, God, I'm like, I'm out. It's like, okay. You could be out over the one step or you might be able to like go, oh, these other 11 are pretty salient. So similarly, it's like, yeah, they fucked that up, but maybe they were right about a lot of stuff.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  They got some of it right.

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  I think a lot of the traits. Were bright.

• 1:14:10Dax Shepard?

  The one I've experienced with people who have not self identified is that to me. But I have had a few different friendships where it does seem like they think I am better than I am. Like supernatural, right? They're looking at me like I have some kind of answer to something profound.

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  You find out with your friends that have.

• 1:14:30Dax Shepard?

  That I think have had it. I've felt people idolize me and then I have felt what seemed to me be like these barrage of little tests that keep mounting up. It's like, well, then are you going to meet me here? There's so much weight to it all and I just become self conscious of the fact these are tests that I'm not passing. And it feels like a test. And then I have been accused by a good friend of like, you're trying to destroy me. And I'm like, what does that even mean? That's not even something someone could do. Like, what do you mean destroy you? Like, I'm not hurting you. I'm not around your plate. I've called people and said, don't hire. Yeah, like, that's fantastical that I can destroy you. Just the premise of it.

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:10Dax Shepard?

  Also, I'm not, and I love you.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:15:12Dax Shepard?

  So I've had that personal experience. Is it me? No. Did I say that? Sometimes I do like that. You did like me a lot more and you like me now, but I think, I think it's all within the realm. It's all in the normal realm.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  I think that's a good way of putting it, though. There is a real Jackal and Hyde situation going on with it.

• 1:15:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so what I love in this show has been this great gift to us. Again, I keep bringing this up, but it was so profound. We interviewed a dude a couple of weeks ago who's schizophrenic and tried to kill his dad. It's like, we read a lot about schizophrenics or schizophrenic episodes and what happens, but it's never from the person who's experiencing it. And I'm like, I'm so genuinely curious.

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's amazing.

• 1:15:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So can you relate to those highs and lows of thinking someone's really special and then?

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:15:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  Like, they're my world, the most important thing. I'm the most codependent. They're my life. They're everything to me. Their validation, their acceptance, it's only important if it's coming from them.

• 1:16:06Dax Shepard?

  Your worth is connected to them.

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  My whole entire worth, so much so that I self abandoned myself and my work and everything else and all them poor and other things in my aspect, like family and friends and become a shit. Brother, a shit son, a shit friend, because that is so important.

• 1:16:23Dax Shepard?

  That's the unifying aspect of all of these things.

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:27Dax Shepard?

  Which is, you look at addiction and you go, okay, the addict is escaping their life through this substance.

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Dax Shepard?

  The codependent in the system is also escaping their life by focusing on the addict's life. And then this condition is escape, like, it's funny that we got all these labels for these conditions. But it's like, we're all trying to fuck off on all the shit we don't want to deal with. And we'll find a road to do it.

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  An obsession.

• 1:16:53Dax Shepard?

  Whereas acting like some are really bad and some aren't, some are personality disorders and some are this. And it's like, nice thing that humans, like, if they find something that will distract them from the shit that drives them nuts, it's gonna be an appealing option. Now, is there any voice, you're smart, so is there any voice, well, while that kind of ramp up obsession's happening about the person? Are there any bells going off, it's like, you're doing it.

• 1:17:14Speaker 02

  Now.

• 1:17:15Dax Shepard?

  Now, but not before.

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Cause it feels good.

• 1:17:18Speaker 02

  Feels good. You get a high from it and I don't party anymore, so that's my high.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:23Speaker 02

  But I have to catch myself, as much as I hated it, I did this thing called dialectical behavioral therapy.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've heard about this.

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  Fucking hated it so much. It just feels like elementary weird work of like checking in with your senses and holding ice cubes if you're upset or really taking inventory about what's going on. And it feels like so lame when you're doing it. But then I do it in life now, so I see the merit in it. I check myself and I'm like, oh, you're idolizing this person. Oh, you're wanting to do that thing where they're your whole world and you're ready to drop everything. Or another end, like if my friend hurts my feelings and I crumble if people don't like me. I crumble if they say anything that's critical. Instead of lashing out and going like, fuck you, I hate you and all this stuff. I'm like, I check myself, I'm doing that thing again. Am I splitting or do they just care about me?

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  Great that you are able to do that.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  I mean, I still have moments, but I think the recovery time before it would take me a couple of months to realize that I was being crazy. Then it went down to a week, then it went down to a day, then it went down to like, I can check myself within like 30 seconds and be like, I'm so sorry. I was doing that thing that I do.

• 1:18:26Dax Shepard?

  I'm in the middle of one of my things here.

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is not about you. Yeah.

• 1:18:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Wow, that's amazing growth.

• 1:18:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, please extend me a little patience, get my arms around this thing. How did you get turned on to the dialectical?

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  That was one of the things that so I feel like I'm really ragging on this place. There was eight hours of therapy every day and a lot of it I hated and a lot of it I resented. And the one that I hated the most was the thing that I love the most now was the DBT groups.

• 1:18:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay, DBT groups.

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, dialectical behavioral therapy group.

• 1:18:59Dax Shepard?

  So how will that work? It's a group meeting.

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  Group meeting. It's similar to AA, actually. It's similar to all these kind of meetings and I don't know, I feel like that's when it really clicked for me. Where I was like, we have so much in common. We have so much overlap and as much as I hate this thing and resist it, there's gotta be a reason that we have 99% of the same exact story here.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:22Dax Shepard?

  This is too coincidental.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  It's a little too coincidental. So that really chilled me out and doing that group stuff where I could kind of commiserate with the other people that had it, how stupid it was.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:33Speaker 02

  That helped me. There was a community.

• 1:19:35Dax Shepard?

  This is, I think, the great magic of the program is if you're telling me what's wrong with me and what I need to do, it's just a dead end street.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:19:45Dax Shepard?

  But if I can just observe someone being honest about what they're going through, I can find myself in them.

• 1:19:50Speaker 02

  That's exactly it.

• 1:19:51Dax Shepard?

  It's so powerful and it takes away all the defensiveness.

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  It's why I like even popping into SLA and popping into AA. I don't necessarily think I'm an alcoholic, but there's moments where I'm in there where I'm like, oh, that's like 90% of my life and what it could be if one thing changed, you know?

• 1:20:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  That affects me way more than going to a place and having them just tell me what I am and give me a bunch of meds.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, for sure. Me too. I'll regret saying this because you're going to explain it. I'm gonna feel stupid for saying it, but I do feel like a group therapy for BDP has a unique set of risks in the same way that SLA does. Like when you first hear about SLA or SLA and you're like, hold on, a bunch of sex hacks get together and help themselves recover. This sounds like a recipe for disaster. Won't everyone just be fucking in the bathroom? Like that is kind of your first thought.

• 1:20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:40Dax Shepard?

  So is there any risk in that group?

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  God, it would be fun though.

• 1:20:47Dax Shepard?

  Daisy chain of he's the savior who thinks he's the savior who thinks he's the savior.

• 1:20:52Speaker 02

  I'm gonna probably get in trouble for saying this, but I don't think it's much different than sitting on set with a bunch of actors. A lot of them are undiagnosed with personality disorders.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  I don't know if there's danger in it. I think it'd be beneficial. It depends on where you're at, but I think it'd be really fun.

• 1:21:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:21:08Speaker 01

  You could say the same thing with AA, like, isn't everyone just gonna go get drunk afterwards?

• 1:21:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's why I'm admitting that I know it's a flawed question, but also I also am being honest about the fact that it gives me anxiety that all the people have the same condition. Do you feel that when you go to AA, like a little bit of that anxiety? I go to very few public meetings, but I used to go to a ton. I mostly go to dudes' houses, but I'm judgmental still, so I definitely will be looking around the room and I'll spot two turkeys and I'm like, oh, these two are definitely relapsed together. Like, you know, they just like, like they're pairing off. Cause again, you can bond over like, and this is kind of a joke and that feels good. It's like being in the back of a classroom. And then you're only a couple of sentences between this place. This is a joke to let's go get fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. And dudes do go out together. But in general, no, it's very low percentage that that's happening.

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  I would say I want to add one thing on to what you asked about that group.

• 1:22:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  I think it would be really good because the person that I was and how much my symptoms were showing at that area in time is completely different than the person that's sitting here in this chair. So to put those people in the same room that are all on different levels or whatever the fuck you want to call it, I think they could learn a lot from each other, honestly.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  That makes sense.

• 1:22:19Dax Shepard?

  Well, and again, that's another magical component of it is you're providing so much service to the other dudes there that are further along in their recovery to be reminded, oh yeah, man. I know when I first got my diagnosis, you know, I was a mess. It is reminded of the chaos.

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:37Dax Shepard?

  In that person's life and it's so helpful to keep you on the path.

• 1:22:41Speaker 02

  Right. It's like when you're in AA and the person gets their one month token and you're like, oh God, I remember.

• 1:22:46Dax Shepard?

  Or the most valuable thing is the dude who relapses and comes in and tells us the amount of shame he's got right now and how ugly it was immediately as it always is. You know, that's the most helpful thing. Not the dude that's like celebrating 35 years.

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:22:59Dax Shepard?

  Now that you have had that and you have had success with therapy from it, do you feel compelled when you meet a new dude to be like, hey, so you should know I have this or not?

• 1:23:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do actually. And a lot of times they're like, what are you talking about?

• 1:23:17Dax Shepard?

  They're hearing that for the first time, right?

• 1:23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And they're like, I've never noticed anything. And then in my head, I'm like, maybe I don't.

• 1:23:26Speaker 02

  Maybe I'm wrong. But I think as much as I hate the labels of things, I think it's helpful for other people, the labels, in contextualizing what it is and having them look it up and Google, like, what the fuck does he mean? He does this splitting thing sometimes and to be aware of it.

• 1:23:41Dax Shepard?

  You didn't define splitting enough for me.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got it. It's the either idolizing or.

• 1:23:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, the two extremes. It's kind of like what you said about then at your feet or at your neck. They go hand in hand with each other, but I think it can be helpful.

• 1:23:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine ever, I never did meet a girl that I didn't immediately say I'm an addict. So I'm gonna do weird shit. I get up and I journal and I meditate, you know, and I'm gonna go to meetings.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  It's who you are.

• 1:24:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, there's no hiding this.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  Also, it's not gonna work with someone who doesn't accept it and know it.

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, you just know right away, like, I probably should tap out now.

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:24:11Dax Shepard?

  But the shame level is much higher for you. I want to recognize, I mean, I want to be honest about that. It's like in the many things that people can admit to, like, addiction's fine now. If you're in the closet, I mean, addict, that's like a very seventies thing. Totally. Catch up. SLA is still trickier. That's tricky for people. And then to say BDP, these are still things that are like, you're the vanguard of that. You're brave to do that.

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I'm so sorry.

• 1:24:36Speaker 02

  We did it the same exact time.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:24:39Speaker 02

  Sorry, say that again.

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  Mine was a door bird and it just won't, I don't know how to turn that chirp off. It's on do not disturb.

• 1:24:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:46Speaker 02

  Look at you. Is that your shirt?

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  I don't know, maybe.

• 1:24:49Dax Shepard?

  Monica's going on a date tonight and she's got, she's getting a special shirt.

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  You are?

• 1:24:54Dax Shepard?

  For the day. Isn't that fun?

• 1:24:55Speaker 02

  I love that. Where's the shirt from?

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  Why is that?

• 1:24:58Speaker 02

  Oh, hot.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a cute shirt.

• 1:25:00Speaker 02

  Where are you going on the date? Where is he taking you?

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  Little Doms.

• 1:25:03Speaker 02

  Okay, that's a good first date.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  It's good, chill.

• 1:25:05Speaker 02

  Dark.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  I was there yesterday.

• 1:25:07Speaker 02

  On another date?

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  No, just with my friend Jess. And I'm not gonna say that. Okay.

• 1:25:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, cuz that feels like, well, this is special then.

• 1:25:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, you were here 12 hours ago.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  You're gonna be back tomorrow.

• 1:25:19Speaker 02

  Unless the waitress from the night before is your same.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  I do go there a lot. So I do worry like they're like Monica and he's like, oh, how often do you come here? I'm like, oh.

• 1:25:29Dax Shepard?

  That's good, though.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  I guess. I don't know. I don't want to think about it.

• 1:25:32Dax Shepard?

  It's your insecurities talking.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  I don't want to think about it.

• 1:25:34Dax Shepard?

  And no matter what, it's gonna be bad.

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:25:37Dax Shepard?

  But they're like, Monica, you're our favorite customer ever. Oh, fuck.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Oh, it's over.

• 1:25:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. You're always so generous and we love having you. Oh, fuck.

• 1:25:47Dax Shepard?

  So anyways, I sincerely want to say thank you, dude. I love when people go first. And to hear you say those things you said to me, I hope they're said to you, you deserve it. I think it's much bolder for you to come out and do that.

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  Thanks, man.

• 1:26:03Dax Shepard?

  Okay, let's talk about voicemails for Isabel.

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Well, I'm here.

• 1:26:06Dax Shepard?

  This is your new project.

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  I saw it.

• 1:26:09Dax Shepard?

  You did? What'd you think?

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  I loved it. I'm a rom com sucker.

• 1:26:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  I normally don't watch the movie or read the book or do anything on purpose so that there's like an objective, you know, whatever for cutting, but it popped up on my Netflix and I was like.

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  Oh, shit.

• 1:26:23Dax Shepard?

  And you really need to know, because I don't want you to be on my neck over this.

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  I won't.

• 1:26:27Dax Shepard?

  I watch people's shit.

• 1:26:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  He does.

• 1:26:29Dax Shepard?

  I went last night to watch it. I told my family I can't hang tonight. I have research to do. I'm watching this movie. I go to my Netflix preview content. It was not there.

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  Oh, shit. Maybe it was like an expired link.

• 1:26:39Dax Shepard?

  Crazy blessing because she never watches it. I always watch it. In this case, I couldn't.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Reverse back.

• 1:26:43Dax Shepard?

  And she did.

• 1:26:44Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:26:46Dax Shepard?

  So you tell him.

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  Loved it. I thought it was so, well, I don't know how much premise can get told.

• 1:26:51Dax Shepard?

  We can tell. I watched the trailer. I did what I could do. But yeah, this girl, Zoe Deutsch, who I love.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  We just love her.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  Love her. She's the best.

• 1:26:59Dax Shepard?

  She has a sister who has passed and she keeps calling the sister's phone and leaving her these kind of confessional voice memos. And then the number gets reassigned to, thank God, a gorgeous dude.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  Gorgeous. I obviously looked him up as soon as I was like, who is this guy?

• 1:27:16Dax Shepard?

  Did he make you horny?

• 1:27:17Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:27:18Dax Shepard?

  He's something else.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was hot.

• 1:27:21Speaker 02

  He's hot.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  But it's so sweet. I cried multiple times and I'm pretty dead inside. Yeah, so it did get me. Zoe's so good. All of you guys are so good in it. Everyone's so natural and it's a rom com. We need more rom coms. Bringing them back and it makes me so happy. It makes me so happy.

• 1:27:42Speaker 02

  I feel the same way. I cried when I read it on the plane and I was like, oh, shit, this one's good.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:48Speaker 02

  This one's good.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  It is. You're so funny in it. You put.

• 1:27:51Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:27:52Dax Shepard?

  A dick. Listen, I've played a dick and a dumbass.

• 1:27:55Speaker 02

  That's all I get. That's all they see me as.

• 1:27:58Dax Shepard?

  I've got an anchor here in Los Feliz, so.

• 1:28:00Speaker 02

  So you're doing just fine.

• 1:28:02Dax Shepard?

  Playing a dick.

• 1:28:03Speaker 02

  Casting is still casting.

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  It's a funny.

• 1:28:05Speaker 02

  It's funny. Yeah, it's a funny, different kind of version of that character, but it's so good. And Nick Offerman's hilarious in it. I couldn't stop laughing all day on set with him. Yeah, I love that movie.

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  I think it's gonna be a big hit.

• 1:28:17Speaker 02

  You know what I like about it a lot, too, is the main character is fucked up and unlikable at certain moments. Like, I miss rom coms, like How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days and Never Been Kissed, where they're like a little deceitful and they have a secret.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:33Dax Shepard?

  Maybe they're doing some light stalking.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:28:35Dax Shepard?

  That was very popular.

• 1:28:36Speaker 02

  That was popular. That was cool. It was cool.

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  My best friend's wedding.

• 1:28:39Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  It's all a wooz.

• 1:28:41Speaker 02

  By the way, she's kind of horrible in that movie.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, she is. But she's so good.

• 1:28:44Speaker 02

  But you love her. And that's Zoe's ability to make an unlikable character the best. And you love her.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  She's like Kristen in that way. They can play like very unlikable.

• 1:28:53Dax Shepard?

  She's like, I just killed your mom.

• 1:28:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:55Dax Shepard?

  And you're like, you're so.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:28:57Dax Shepard?

  I understand. I wish I could watch. I bet you look so cute.

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  They have that similar quality, but you just watch her forever.

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  She's so good.

• 1:29:05Speaker 02

  I love her.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  Watch it, guys.

• 1:29:06Speaker 02

  Watch it, everyone.

• 1:29:07Dax Shepard?

  Isabel on Netflix. I just saw this note Rob wrote. 340 hard out. I fucked that up.

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  Oh, fuck.

• 1:29:13Dax Shepard?

  I'm so sorry. I hope you're not in big, big trouble.

• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  Four o'clock. I'm good.

• 1:29:16Dax Shepard?

  You're good?

• 1:29:17Speaker 02

  I have accent training for prison break.

• 1:29:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, tell me about prison break.

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  We're redoing prison break.

• 1:29:22Dax Shepard?

  You are?

• 1:29:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:24Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:29:24Speaker 02

  I start on Monday.

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:29:26Dax Shepard?

  You do?

• 1:29:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:27Dax Shepard?

  And are you a prisoner?

• 1:29:28Speaker 02

  I'm not. I'm outside of the prison.

• 1:29:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  And what's your accent?

• 1:29:32Speaker 02

  West Virginia.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 1:29:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:34Dax Shepard?

  Pretty Appalachian hillbilly.

• 1:29:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, very demon copperhead.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 1:29:39Speaker 02

  I'm rereading that right now.

• 1:29:40Dax Shepard?

  That's a good idea.

• 1:29:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm watching Buck Wild right now on MTV. It's like the Jersey Shore of West Virginia.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:29:47Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, it's so good.

• 1:29:48Dax Shepard?

  I would love that. Did they go mud bogging?

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  Oh, every day.

• 1:29:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:51Speaker 02

  It's insane.

• 1:29:53Dax Shepard?

  I would do well in West Virginia.

• 1:29:55Speaker 02

  We did the pilot there. I never felt hotter in my life.

• 1:29:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:58Speaker 02

  Five in LA, 10 in West Virginia.

• 1:30:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is that on? What is prison?

• 1:30:03Speaker 02

  It's gonna be on Hulu.

• 1:30:04Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it is?

• 1:30:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:05Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  That's exciting.

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  Beautiful.

• 1:30:07Dax Shepard?

  Well, listen, dude, you're gonna have a wonderful ride.

• 1:30:09Speaker 02

  That means a lot coming from you.

• 1:30:11Dax Shepard?

  You're very honest and you're very likeable.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  You're working on yourself. That's all we can do.

• 1:30:15Speaker 02

  Thank you guys for what you do. I'm not kidding. I listen to three podcasts. You're one of three.

• 1:30:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, well, thank you.

• 1:30:22Speaker 02

  Keep doing what you're doing.

• 1:30:23Dax Shepard?

  If you ever shave it down to one, I hope we make the cut.

• 1:30:25Speaker 02

  You will make the cut, I promise.

• 1:30:27Dax Shepard?

  All right, well, I adore you.

• 1:30:27Speaker 02

  Thank you. I adore you guys.

• 1:30:29Dax Shepard?

  Just a quick reminder that as part of our summer break, here's a rerun of one of our favorite fact checks.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  Pretty good stuff.

• 1:30:39Dax Shepard?

  Pretty good.

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  Pretty good station.

• 1:30:41Dax Shepard?

  Really great station. Hey, y'all. Really great station. I wish I could find that actual clip.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  Because it's gonna, by the way, you can't because it's gonna sound nothing like it and then it's gonna be sad.

• 1:30:53Dax Shepard?

  They played it so frequently on this Atlanta radio station.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:59Dax Shepard?

  That they had it, you know, recorded. It wasn't like someone called and, I mean, someone did originally call and say that.

• 1:31:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:05Dax Shepard?

  They knew it was great. Hey, y'all. Really great station.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  I wonder, um.

• 1:31:10Dax Shepard?

  Station. I wonder if Newman would remember the radio station. Should we try to cold call him and see?

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 1:31:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, this is high risk. Let's see.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  I wonder if it was B 98.5?

• 1:31:25Speaker 04

  Hello?

• 1:31:27Dax Shepard?

  Hi, you're on the radio, if that's okay. Is that okay?

• 1:31:30Speaker 04

  Oh, boy. Okay.

• 1:31:32Dax Shepard?

  I won't say where you work.

• 1:31:36Dax Shepard?

  You know, I'm obsessed with when you and I were riding around in your Suzuki Azuzu, your trooper.

• 1:31:42Speaker 04

  Azuzu.

• 1:31:43Dax Shepard?

  Azuzu trooper, red, in Georgia, and you listened to the same radio. Well, maybe you listen to a lot of radio stations, but you know I'm obsessed still with that one gal. They played the clip of her all the time and say, "Hey, y'all. Really great station."

• 1:31:59Speaker 04

  Hey, y'all. Y'all really great station.

• 1:32:03Dax Shepard?

  Oh, so you remember the station. I remember the station.

• 1:32:07Speaker 01

  This is already much.

• 1:32:10Dax Shepard?

  I guess what we're, what we're really looking for is, do you remember what station you listened to down there? That's a tough question.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  Star 94, B 98.5.

• 1:32:20Dax Shepard?

  Can you hear Monica? Yell at cause she's

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  B ninety eight point five star ninety four.

• 1:32:29Dax Shepard?

  I want to say it was country.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Five the beat.

• 1:32:31Dax Shepard?

  I want to say it was country, wasn't it?

• 1:32:33Speaker 04

  I'm not sure that it was.

• 1:32:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I bet it was.

• 1:32:36Speaker 04

  Six point one.

• 1:32:37Dax Shepard?

  Oh, ninety six point one.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  That sounds country.

• 1:32:41Dax Shepard?

  Um, she says that sounds country. It sounds like it's on the country.

• 1:32:44Speaker 04

  You got to be accents. Everybody was, hey y'all.

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  Power ninety six point one.

• 1:32:50Dax Shepard?

  Power ninety six point one. Does that sound familiar? Cause we're gonna do our best. We're gonna deploy all resources to see if we can get the clip of that woman saying really great station. We can find out whether it was really great station or really great station.

• 1:33:04Speaker 04

  Advertisement for the station that played over and over. And that's why I'm like, it finally just sunk into my mind.

• 1:33:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And you helped get me there. Like we were in your Azuzu trooper and it came on and you said along with her.

• 1:33:20Dax Shepard?

  Which let me know it wasn't the first time you heard it and then you loved it. And then now I've loved it for thirty years.

• 1:33:27Speaker 04

  I had to do a little research. Where were we in Georgia? Were we in Athens or were we up in northeast Georgia?

• 1:33:34Dax Shepard?

  No, when you and Aaron lived in the, the mobile home.

• 1:33:36Speaker 04

  Okay. So we were at the trailer.

• 1:33:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. You call it a trailer. I call it a mobile.

• 1:33:41Speaker 01

  Was it Macon?

• 1:33:43Dax Shepard?

  No, Macon was close though. Macon county was the next county over, right?

• 1:33:47Speaker 04

  Macon, no. All, there was White County, Hall County.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Hall, yeah.

• 1:33:52Dax Shepard?

  You guys were really close to that little German town, weren't you?

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  Helen.

• 1:33:56Dax Shepard?

  Helen.

• 1:33:57Speaker 04

  Yes, we were twenty miles from Helen. We were just like right on the edge of the hills. You had to drive into the hills to get to Helen.

• 1:34:04Dax Shepard?

  Hmm. And you're right on the hooch, right? The hoochie.

• 1:34:07Speaker 04

  Uh, well, the, uh, the mobile home was not on the hooch. There was a creek that ran through it.

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:34:14Dax Shepard?

  Well, I do remember that you and I got into the hooch. You had dropped something, your wallet or a watch. What did you lose in the hooch? And we had to get it.

• 1:34:23Speaker 04

  A Zippo lighter.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Had to get it.

• 1:34:26Dax Shepard?

  That's what it was, a Zippo lighter. Had to be gotten. Yeah, the hoochie was screaming when you jumped. All right, I love you. Thanks for helping. If you think you nailed down the radio station, let me know so I can do some.

• 1:34:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, sure, too. And um, cause if I'm saying ninety six one, that's I'm wrong.

• 1:34:46Speaker 04

  Cause that was, that was gonna be Athens. That would have been Athens.

• 1:34:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:50Speaker 04

  This one was probably a country station.

• 1:34:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:54Speaker 04

  I'll do some research.

• 1:34:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Love you.

• 1:34:58Speaker 04

  All right.

• 1:34:59Dax Shepard?

  I'll talk to you soon.

• 1:35:00Speaker 04

  I'll do it later.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is what I was afraid of.

• 1:35:04Dax Shepard?

  Dead end, kind of.

• 1:35:05Speaker 01

  No, is his recollection of it is

• 1:35:08Dax Shepard?

  A little different than mine.

• 1:35:10Speaker 01

  I wanna play you a song.

• 1:35:12Dax Shepard?

  A song?

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:13Dax Shepard?

  Way down yonder on the Chattahoochee. Hotter than a hoochie coochie.

• 1:35:19Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I guess I don't have to play it.

• 1:35:21Dax Shepard?

  Is that what you're about to play? I can sing along though. I know all the words.

• 1:35:26Dax Shepard?

  AJ baby, Alan Jackson.

• 1:35:32Dax Shepard?

  Hey y'all, really great station.

• 1:35:41Dax Shepard?

  Hey y'all, really great station. And this is Alan Jackson with his hit, Way Down Yonder. We'll be down yonder on the Chattahoochee. It gets hotter than a hoochie coochie. We laid rubber on the Georgia asphalt. Got a little crazy, but we never got caught. Down by the river on a Friday night. Pyramid of cans in the pale moonlight. Talking about cars and dreaming about women. Never had a plan, just living for the minutes.

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  You do know.

• 1:36:10Dax Shepard?

  Hey y'all, way down yonder on the Chattahoochee. And how much I muddy water meant to me. Hey y'all, really great station. I learned who I was, a lot about living and a little about love. Yahoo! Great station!

• 1:36:26Speaker 01

  Okay, that was.

• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  You really do know all the words. I'm impressed.

• 1:36:31Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  How do you know all the words? You're not even from Georgia.

• 1:36:34Dax Shepard?

  When those two moved from Detroit down to fucking rural Georgia, I would go down there and they became obsessed with country. And then that that's where all the the Hank Senior and Junior and Whalen all started is those two moving to the, you know, the sticks.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  My, my home.

• 1:36:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and being right next to the hooch.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  Right. But I'm just still surprised you know all the lyrics.

• 1:36:57Dax Shepard?

  I know all the lyrics of all the country songs of that era, probably 96, 97. You probably didn't drive around enough with me when you, because we were newly friends. But when you came over to the house that we were staying at in Georgia, when Kristen was working on Bad Moms, we were next to the hooch. We crossed it every time we drove into anywhere.

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's.

• 1:37:21Dax Shepard?

  It's everywhere. Yeah. But I would play it for the girls every time we left the house. Because we'd be passing the hooch. And I took Lincoln down to the hooch and she, this is a famous story. She bit me on my shoulder and went through my shirt and my skin.

• 1:37:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's the only time she ever assaulted me.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  Wait, really?

• 1:37:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Because of the hooch, the water she drank?

• 1:37:44Dax Shepard?

  We were on the hooch and there were these cement steps down and probably to get into a canoe or something. And she was little, if you remember, because she was like under two years old. She was probably.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  Delta was three months.

• 1:37:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So she was probably two years and one month.

• 1:37:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:00Dax Shepard?

  And I was letting her walk around the steps and she's a daredevil. So she wanted to get in the water, but it was freezing cold and the current of the hooch at that time of year was swift.

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:12Dax Shepard?

  And so I went and grabbed her right as she was about to step into the water and picked her up. And she was so pissed, I had intervened. She bit my shoulder. Yeah. She clamped down with her two new little branded teeth.

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  Lincoln, really great station.

• 1:38:27Dax Shepard?

  Really great bite.

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 1:38:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So I came home and I was like really ticked off. I told Kristen like she bit through my

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  You were mad at her?

• 1:38:36Dax Shepard?

  Well, she's evil. You don't like bite a human being.

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  You know what my fifth grade school was?

• 1:38:48Dax Shepard?

  Hattahoochie High?

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  Chattahoochee Elementary.

• 1:38:50Dax Shepard?

  Same thing. Chattahoochee Elementary. That's great. On the hooch. Did you call it the hooch?

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  No, I called it Chattahoochee Elementary.

• 1:38:58Dax Shepard?

  But I mean, the river.

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, yeah, people called it.

• 1:39:00Dax Shepard?

  Did you ever go down to the hooch and drink?

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  Listen, listen to me. Chattahoochee River is everywhere.

• 1:39:07Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  It's like four minutes down the street from my parents' house.

• 1:39:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So why didn't you go down there and put a pyramid of cans up in the pale moonlight?

• 1:39:14Speaker 01

  Cause no one does that.

• 1:39:15Dax Shepard?

  Did you lay rubber on a Georgia asphalt?

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  I mean, I went tubing in Helen.

• 1:39:20Dax Shepard?

  You did?

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  A lot. Well, like four times.

• 1:39:22Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:23Dax Shepard?

  That's exciting.

• 1:39:24Speaker 01

  I didn't almost drown.

• 1:39:26Dax Shepard?

  Oh, is this an area of grievance? Then I gotta let that go.

• 1:39:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I guess it's evidence that it wasn't my fault. Like I know how to traverse a tube. I've done it.

• 1:39:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  But the Austin River was much.

• 1:39:46Dax Shepard?

  They got you.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  It got me.

• 1:39:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that was the San Marcos River. Way down yonder on the San Marcos River. Tipped in my tube and my top got loose.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:40:00Dax Shepard?

  Formula One drivers coming over behind me.

• 1:40:03Speaker 01

  Oh, that was about me.

• 1:40:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, San Marcos River. Yeah.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, my top did get loose.

• 1:40:14Dax Shepard?

  Got a little crazy, but you didn't get caught.

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  I think I did get caught, unfortunately. Fortunately for the catchers.

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  Anywho.

• 1:40:25Dax Shepard?

  You're disappointed for sure that I said it was fine. And rightly so. It had changed. The waterfall we went over used to be a gentle little a cement paved thing. They tore it out, made natural with big rocks and that got a little crazy. So you're disappointed in me about that, rightly so.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  I'm not actually.

• 1:40:45Dax Shepard?

  But my response was on the, I was right there.

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  You always want to get to the response.

• 1:40:51Dax Shepard?

  Well, I want you to have felt like I was willing to die for you. I was willing to kill you and die for you. That's something, isn't it?

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Listen, you

• 1:41:02Dax Shepard?

  suck.

• 1:41:03Speaker 01

  Didn't mean for that to happen.

• 1:41:05Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God, that was, that's no.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  So I have no.

• 1:41:07Dax Shepard?

  I went over first with my child.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  Right, but you are more equipped.

• 1:41:12Dax Shepard?

  But holding my child.

• 1:41:13Speaker 01

  So she, she's more equipped than me.

• 1:41:16Dax Shepard?

  She was a little roughed up like you were. But if you recall, like I was dealing with her and I had to put her on the rock and go, and then I decided to turn my attention because I knew you were coming over and I was like nervous.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  But you didn't come in. You didn't have to.

• 1:41:27Dax Shepard?

  So that I could respond.

• 1:41:28Speaker 01

  Imagine if I had died that day?

• 1:41:31Dax Shepard?

  Well.

• 1:41:32Speaker 01

  Like, what a day.

• 1:41:33Dax Shepard?

  I can, if you'd like, I can sit here and try to imagine it, but that's to me like saying, what if you got hit over the head with a falling bit of debris from a building while we were in Austin? It's like, I can't see you dying in that situation at all.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 1:41:47Dax Shepard?

  We were all right there. I was like waiting to leap in, but you got yourself out of the water really quick. But yeah, I don't know how you could have because I was, I was watching you come over. I watched you tip over, pop right up and go right to the rock.

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what happened.

• 1:42:01Dax Shepard?

  But had you tipped over and like you weren't popping up, I would have been jumping in and grabbing you.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  I know, but by then I could have filled my lungs with water.

• 1:42:10Dax Shepard?

  That's too fast. Yeah, that's just too fast.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  I could have swallowed a lot of water.

• 1:42:15Dax Shepard?

  And I would have pulled you out on the thing and then started chest compressions after I fixed your top for you. I couldn't do chest compressions. No, ethically, I couldn't have done.

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  You would have been like the armchair anonymous.

• 1:42:27Dax Shepard?

  I couldn't touch your boobs to save your life. I mean, I just have to.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 1:42:32Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'd have to have Molly cover your boobs and then start chest compressions.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  There's no time for that. Oh, my God, she said. Her hands. She has to get across the river. Molly, she's drowning. Come over here.

• 1:42:45Dax Shepard?

  I need to start chest compressions. I can't press on her boobs.

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  That's the time you can see my boobs.

• 1:42:51Dax Shepard?

  And press on them?

• 1:42:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:52Dax Shepard?

  Okay. But press on them? Lee Pressons?

• 1:42:55Speaker 01

  If it's to save my life, I assume everyone would be okay with that.

• 1:42:59Dax Shepard?

  I guess that's how the people in your pyramid squad felt, that they had to catch you by the pussy to save your life.

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  They did have to, and I'm grateful.

• 1:43:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we thanked them for it. That's such an old reference. I bet people, a lot of people listen, don't even know that.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  New listeners? Tell people.

• 1:43:14Dax Shepard?

  Well, just when you were explaining that you were a high flyer and that you'd get caught, and you even showed me some pictures and I said, clearly some people must have accidentally caught you by the vagina. And you said, yes.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  Well, and that's not the phrasing you used.

• 1:43:27Dax Shepard?

  Well, it escalated from there to catch him by the pussy.

• 1:43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, which is kind of a callback.

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  Cause no, it was again, way more perverse than this. You were talking about boys on the squad. Cause we had boys on our squad. It was a coed squad.

• 1:43:40Dax Shepard?

  Teen boys.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  Teen boys.

• 1:43:42Dax Shepard?

  Catching high flyers by the pussy. It seems crazy. Yeah.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  So much of that porous walker, our, our friend.

• 1:43:49Dax Shepard?

  May, well, I commissioned.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  Yes, you commissioned.

• 1:43:53Dax Shepard?

  A beautiful piece of art of, of a, of a young Monica being caught by the pussy.

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  It was an interactive piece of art, cause you pulled down.

• 1:44:05Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  You pulled me down.

• 1:44:07Dax Shepard?

  So that's gonna be worth like 10 million dollars one day. Cause porous walker's a genius.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 1:44:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, don't even say it out loud. Don't say that.

• 1:44:16Speaker 01

  No, no, I do. I do. I have all this art that I moved to the house.

• 1:44:21Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  So it's all in the garage, but that worries me.

• 1:44:25Dax Shepard?

  Me too. I really went to the ends of the earth to get that for you.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  Listen to me, I saw my.

• 1:44:29Dax Shepard?

  Now I have a grievance.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  What am I supposed to do?

• 1:44:33Dax Shepard?

  It should be hanging on your wall proudly.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  I don't have space.

• 1:44:37Dax Shepard?

  Brother and your dad visit. They gotta see that.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  Ding ding ding, chatta hooch.

• 1:44:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  Hoochie cooch.

• 1:44:42Dax Shepard?

  Go dogs.

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  Georgia go dogs.

• 1:44:44Dax Shepard?

  Roll tide.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  How dare you stop?

• 1:44:47Dax Shepard?

  Well, you guys got the last laugh.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  You know, I almost wrote that in one of my posts and then I thought that is such bad luck. I cannot do that.

• 1:44:54Dax Shepard?

  You almost wrote roll tide?

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  As, because it's our joke.

• 1:44:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  But then I thought, what am I doing?

• 1:45:00Dax Shepard?

  Can I say this? It's such bad luck that I've been saying roll tide the whole time and they went undefeated. That's how bad of luck it was to say roll tide.

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  We don't know what's gonna happen. What if we have a national championship we're about to go to?

• 1:45:12Dax Shepard?

  But I've been saying roll tide for the last nine games.

• 1:45:15Speaker 01

  What if it was to get us to this point just to get?

• 1:45:19Dax Shepard?

  Superstition.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  Just to get defeated.

• 1:45:21Dax Shepard?

  You do taunt them along the ride, but then when they get to the championship, no more roll tide.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. My brother and dad are going to the game here in Los Angeles.

• 1:45:31Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:45:32Speaker 01

  They'll be here Sunday night, Monday night for the game and leave Tuesday. Quick trip. Quick, quick trip. Quick trip.

• 1:45:39Dax Shepard?

  The ninth? The game's the ninth?

• 1:45:41Speaker 01

  4:30 PM. 4:30. We'll be recording.

• 1:45:44Dax Shepard?

  Yes, we will. No, you'll be out in time for the watch the game.

• 1:45:47Speaker 01

  Anyway, I'm really excited for them.

• 1:45:49Dax Shepard?

  Me too.

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  I hope they have a lot of fun.

• 1:45:52Dax Shepard?

  I had an incredibly fine moment as a dad a few days ago.

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  Ding ding ding dads.

• 1:45:58Dax Shepard?

  Lincoln came up to me and said, hey, um, I really want to go to that NASCAR race at the Coliseum again this year. Can we go? Can we go? You better believe we'll go. She asked me to take her to a car race, Monica.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  That's exciting.

• 1:46:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, so we're gonna go.

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  Fun.

• 1:46:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 1:46:19Dax Shepard?

  The clash in the Coliseum.

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  Wow. This is the one in Rome?

• 1:46:23Dax Shepard?

  No, our Coliseum, wobbly wobbly. They don't do NASCAR races in Rome yet. They're doing every other thing. We should have them host a race in the attic. That's how small the Coliseum is.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  That reminded me of when I was home. My dad reminded me. Oh, speaking of children.

• 1:46:42Dax Shepard?

  There's 150 of them just piled out of my Roadmaster station wagon.

• 1:46:46Speaker 01

  Why'd you have to drive that?

• 1:46:47Dax Shepard?

  Too many kids for her car.

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  There's a party bat bus? Oh, it's a playdate. Don't ignore me when she has friends over.

• 1:46:56Dax Shepard?

  She ignores everyone when she got friends.

• 1:47:00Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  Okay, I don't remember how this came up, but my dad was recalling me learning how to ride a bike.

• 1:47:20Dax Shepard?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  And I have some memories of this too, but I think I've blocked a lot out and now I know why.

• 1:47:30Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  Cause there's trauma around it.

• 1:47:33Dax Shepard?

  Not shocked. Let's hear it.

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  Because per usual, I was way too old.

• 1:47:41Dax Shepard?

  You'd waited too late.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Learning. How to ride a bike. I was seven.

• 1:47:46Dax Shepard?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  Um, and so my dad wanted to teach me or help me or whatever. He was like, let's, you know, we're gonna do it in the driveway. And I said, no.

• 1:47:56Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. I will not be seen.

• 1:47:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  The whole reason I'm needing to ride a bike is because everyone in this neighborhood, this was in Memphis. We had just moved to Memphis. And everyone in the neighborhood rode bikes. That's like how you hung out.

• 1:48:10Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  And I didn't know how. So I was like, I gotta learn how. And he's okay. And then we go in the driveway and I was like, I'm not doing that. And then also I refused to wear a helmet, apparently.

• 1:48:21Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's natural. You don't want to look like a dork.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:25Dax Shepard?

  Fucking geek.

• 1:48:26Speaker 01

  He then, which this part was sad. He was like, I probably put it on too tight. I was like, no, I don't think, maybe, but also I think I just.

• 1:48:33Dax Shepard?

  You would have let him know if it was too tight.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would have screamed it. Yeah. So I took it upon myself to learn how to ride a bike in the garage.

• 1:48:45Dax Shepard?

  Closed garage? Can't be done.

• 1:48:46Speaker 01

  In the closed garage.

• 1:48:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, that can't be, that can't be done.

• 1:48:50Speaker 01

  No, the cars were removed. And then my dad said, he said.

• 1:48:55Dax Shepard?

  He was just running into a wall.

• 1:48:56Speaker 01

  He said, he came home from work and he said, I said, where's Monica? And mom said, she's out there riding.

• 1:49:06Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  And I went out there and you were just going like.

• 1:49:10Dax Shepard?

  And encircle in the garage.

• 1:49:13Speaker 01

  Just going in little circles in the garage.

• 1:49:15Dax Shepard?

  That's great. That would have made you a pretty advanced rider right out of the gates.

• 1:49:19Speaker 01

  He was very impressed when he was retelling this story. He was like, I couldn't believe it.

• 1:49:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And so he didn't teach you how you just went in the garage and figured it out?

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  Kept trying.

• 1:49:29Dax Shepard?

  Oh my God.

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  In circles.

• 1:49:31Dax Shepard?

  Oh my God. So insolent.

• 1:49:35Speaker 01

  No, that is the power of needing to fit in.

• 1:49:41Dax Shepard?

  Oh, sure. Yes.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  I will.

• 1:49:44Dax Shepard?

  Get in the garage by yourself.

• 1:49:46Speaker 01

  Impossible. That's impossible.

• 1:49:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. You can't learn to ride a bike in a garage because you're learning while turning. Yeah. That's the hardest part. Yeah. There's no straightaways.

• 1:49:57Dax Shepard?

  And then you hopped out in the neighborhood and pedaled your little bike around?

• 1:50:00Speaker 01

  I rode all the time with my friends.

• 1:50:02Dax Shepard?

  How fun. Did you have any?

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  I'm sure I did have to wear a helmet.

• 1:50:05Dax Shepard?

  It wasn't a thing when I was a kid. There was zero. No one had a helmet.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  While we were talking about this, Neil was there too, listening to this and he said, and then I just took Neil out like on to some parking lot and then he just immediately knew how to do it.

• 1:50:18Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  And I said, that's us.

• 1:50:22Dax Shepard?

  The padmans.

• 1:50:23Speaker 01

  That's indicative of who we are. Like I can't really do it, but I'm gonna just like by sheer will.

• 1:50:32Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Claw your way into doing it.

• 1:50:34Speaker 01

  Something happen. And he has a ton of talent. Yeah.

• 1:50:39Dax Shepard?

  Just a natural.

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  But he doesn't care.

• 1:50:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. He wouldn't have gone in the garage, gone in circles.

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  No, he wouldn't have. Anyway, I thought that was funny.

• 1:50:47Dax Shepard?

  That's very funny.

• 1:50:48Speaker 01

  Well, that's it. No.

• 1:50:52Dax Shepard?

  That's the whole thing.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 1:50:55Dax Shepard?

  Now, listen, I'm glad to report that your expensive rain boots made it through to a second season.

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:51:03Dax Shepard?

  Sometimes I worry when you get these things like how many wears are you going to get out of them? They'll probably be obsolete next year because fashion moves like a speeding bullet. And here you are in the same ones. They look great and I'm glad to see that they're here.

• 1:51:15Speaker 01

  Two things. One, these are not that expensive.

• 1:51:17Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:51:18Speaker 01

  Two. This was from two. I got these before London.

• 1:51:23Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my gosh. Okay, great. So we're on season three of these.

• 1:51:26Speaker 01

  So I'm good at wearing my clothes.

• 1:51:28Dax Shepard?

  Those are great. They're orange.

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  Speaking of, I'm wearing my sweater that Rob gave me, Mixed Messages.

• 1:51:34Dax Shepard?

  And you're sitting next to the painting that Rob commissioned, which I'm staring at too. So Rob's really getting a lot of mileage out of his presence.

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  He is. Okay, this is for Anna Kendrick.

• 1:51:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wonderful.

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, great episode. Really honored that she felt comfortable and that she loves our show so much.

• 1:51:53Dax Shepard?

  Me too.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  It's really sweet.

• 1:51:54Dax Shepard?

  It's funny because we recorded the intro yesterday. My, remember I said I felt like I should reach out? And then I was like, why didn't I reach out? And then I was like, well, because no one's going to read Instagram. So then last night I actually reached out and she responded.

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  Okay, so what?

• 1:52:11Dax Shepard?

  I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm going to.

• 1:52:14Speaker 01

  Wait, what? I thought you said you reached out.

• 1:52:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, basically saying, I want to chat with you.

• 1:52:19Speaker 01

  Oh, got it. Well, I did want to say that she reached out to me after, she reached out actually before the interview, which was awesome, saying she was excited and that, I know it had taken a while for us to be able to get this up and go, because it was years ago that I originally reached out and that we were gonna do this. And then it took a while for her to be able to, really.

• 1:52:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:46Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so she reached out about that. And then after she was really sweet and said that, you know, she hopes it was a good episode and that there was enough. And then she said, and I do think it's important that I say this, she said that she had been thinking about the interview a lot, and particularly the portion where we were talking about gaslighting. And she wanted to make clear that she was sorry if anything she said minimized my experience and that she is used to lending a lot of compassion towards the addict.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  And sometimes that comes at the expense of the person who is harmed. And she said, like, including herself. And then she said, which I thought was really important, like, it was important to me to hear. She, she basically said, I commend you for sticking up for yourself, even if it was gonna make other people uncomfortable.

• 1:53:54Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  And that meant a lot that she said that because that is hard to do.

• 1:53:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  Because gaslighting is tricky, right? Like, you already wonder, that's built into it. A wondering of what's real and what's not, and how big of a deal is this? So then when that gets questioned.

• 1:54:13Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:54:14Speaker 01

  It's like repeating that cycle of, wait, but maybe it's not, or you know, it's just doing that all over again.

• 1:54:21Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:54:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, anyway, so I thought it was very generous and lovely of her to say that.

• 1:54:28Dax Shepard?

  No, she's incredibly lovely. Also, a postscript, she went in afterwards and met Kristen and it was.

• 1:54:34Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. How was it?

• 1:54:37Dax Shepard?

  We talked about, you know, Kristen was jealous. It was good. Kristen got to say to her face, I'm just jealous of how talented you are. It was very sweet.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  Oh, that's nice. Okay, she was right about Maine. It does have the oldest population percentage wise in the United States.

• 1:54:53Dax Shepard?

  Really?

• 1:54:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:54:55Dax Shepard?

  Higher than Florida?

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Then Florida. Then, do you want to guess the third?

• 1:55:00Dax Shepard?

  Uh, oldest state?

• 1:55:02Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:55:03Dax Shepard?

  Arizona?

• 1:55:04Speaker 01

  No, but good guess. West Virginia.

• 1:55:07Dax Shepard?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:55:08Speaker 01

  Old people.

• 1:55:09Dax Shepard?

  A lot of this, these numbers might be affected by like, what state do young people move out of the most?

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah, for sure. This is age 65 or older. And this was as of 2020.

• 1:55:21Dax Shepard?

  You have the full list there?

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I have the full.

• 1:55:23Dax Shepard?

  Maine was number one.

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:55:24Dax Shepard?

  Number three is West Virginia.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:55:26Dax Shepard?

  Number two?

• 1:55:27Speaker 01

  Florida.

• 1:55:28Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Florida is number two.

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:29Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay, great. So number four, what we'd be guessing for?

• 1:55:36Dax Shepard?

  Wyoming.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  No. They're not.

• 1:55:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's that I wouldn't have guessed that.

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, none of these are that guessable. Arizona's not until 12.

• 1:55:47Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:55:48Speaker 05

  Expected that much higher.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too. Do you want to know what 50 is?

• 1:55:53Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:55:54Speaker 01

  Utah.

• 1:55:55Dax Shepard?

  Sure. That's obvious.

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:55:57Dax Shepard?

  Because Mormons have so many kids. So there's gotta be probably per capita more young kids per capita in Utah than any other state.

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  Interesting. Okay, also, Georgia is 47. That's young.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  Let's find Michigan. Michigan. Michigan is 14. It's 14 oldest.

• 1:56:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay, pretty old. That's good.

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  Pretty old. It's 18.2%.

• 1:56:23Dax Shepard?

  Old.

• 1:56:23Speaker 01

  You think it's good?

• 1:56:24Dax Shepard?

  I don't know. I just anytime there's a list and there's a number one, you gotta assume number one's the best.

• 1:56:29Speaker 01

  Okay, that's fair.

• 1:56:30Dax Shepard?

  Oldest is is the best.

• 1:56:32Speaker 01

  Okay, Maine is the best, and then Utah's the worst in this case, in this specific case.

• 1:56:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, in this shootout.

• 1:56:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:39Dax Shepard?

  I'd like to compare mean ages of life expectancy state to state because I bet there's some wild variation even within the country.

• 1:56:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, Rob, look that up, please.

• 1:56:50Dax Shepard?

  Like, I think in Mississippi, life expectancy is is much lower than, say, New York. You got it? Okay, hit us with something.

• 1:56:58Speaker 05

  This is in 2019. List of US states and territories by life expectancies.

• 1:57:02Dax Shepard?

  So let's hit hit me with the life expectancy of New York.

• 1:57:05Speaker 05

  New York is 81.4 years.

• 1:57:09Dax Shepard?

  That feels old. Now hit me with Mississippi.

• 1:57:12Speaker 05

  Mississippi, 74.9.

• 1:57:16Dax Shepard?

  Big difference. Seven year difference.

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  Can you kind of scroll through and see what the lowest is?

• 1:57:22Speaker 05

  51 is West Virginia, 74.8.

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. And it's the third oldest.

• 1:57:30Dax Shepard?

  And they're not living very long.

• 1:57:32Speaker 01

  That's weird.

• 1:57:33Dax Shepard?

  That is weird. What's number one life expectancy?

• 1:57:35Speaker 05

  Number one Hawaii, 82.3.

• 1:57:37Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:57:38Speaker 05

  Then California.

• 1:57:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, congratulations, everybody.

• 1:57:42Speaker 01

  Congrats, LA.

• 1:57:43Dax Shepard?

  Well done. I'm gonna guess Georgia.

• 1:57:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:57:47Dax Shepard?

  79.4.

• 1:57:50Speaker 05

  Seventy seven point nine.

• 1:57:51Dax Shepard?

  Ooh, I over.

• 1:57:52Speaker 05

  Number thirty nine.

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  That's not that good. That's not that good.

• 1:57:56Dax Shepard?

  Good southern cooking. A good yummy southern deep fried cooking.

• 1:58:00Speaker 01

  True.

• 1:58:01Dax Shepard?

  Or, how about this? Here's a positive spin.

• 1:58:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:58:04Dax Shepard?

  They're in a bigger rush to meet Jesus.

• 1:58:06Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:58:07Dax Shepard?

  That makes sense, too.

• 1:58:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:58:08Dax Shepard?

  It always confuses me, truly. I'm not saying this in a condescending way. I feel like if I was a full blown Christian, I believe lock, stock and barrel that I was gonna go to heaven and meet Jesus. Like, I'd be in a hurry to get there. That's the part I don't really.

• 1:58:22Speaker 01

  No, because you still have family. It's like, there's still people on earth that you.

• 1:58:26Dax Shepard?

  But how about the people who have no kids or family? Their family's like, alright, like, let's see.

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  I'm a person with no kids or family, and I still like living.

• 1:58:33Dax Shepard?

  But you're not a Christian.

• 1:58:34Speaker 01

  I know, but I like living on earth. Like, even if I thought, oh, I'll get to go.

• 1:58:39Dax Shepard?

  If there's a much better place. It's kind of like, it's like, you know that Emily Burger's next to your house, okay? And then you have some old ground chuck in your fridge, and you choose to make a burger when you could go next door to Emily. Heaven's way better.

• 1:58:55Speaker 05

  Fail-proof comparison, I don't see.

• 1:58:56Speaker 01

  This is crazy.

• 1:58:57Dax Shepard?

  Listen, heaven's better than the US of A.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  But you're gonna be there for eternity, so you, you still want to live your life here with people you care about. Also, it doesn't require kids and a spouse to have loving relationships that you want to keep up.

• 1:59:17Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 1:59:17Speaker 01

  And enjoy, and.

• 1:59:18Dax Shepard?

  No, I wasn't trying to demean anyone without.

• 1:59:20Speaker 01

  Well, I'm saying.

• 1:59:22Dax Shepard?

  I understand wanting to stick around and see your kids, like, hit milestones.

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I want to stick around just to enjoy life.

• 1:59:31Dax Shepard?

  But if me and Aaron were Christians, and I believe all in, I'd be like, buddy, let's get up there and ride dirt bikes in heaven. Like, let's go to the better place. That'd be me. If I knew there was a better place, I want to be in the better place all the time. I moved to California because I thought it was a better place to do the things I want. Like I, I'll go to wherever is better. I ain't trying to sit somewhere that's less good.

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  Well, you don't get to go if you kill yourself.

• 1:59:59Dax Shepard?

  I know, but eating fried chicken all day, every day, isn't killing yourself technically, according to Jesus, or smoking cigarettes. That you, that won't keep you out of heaven.

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:00:08Dax Shepard?

  So I could like drink hard, smoke cigarettes, eat KFC and then go ride, go do wheelies in heaven.

• 2:00:14Speaker 05

  It's probably just the doubt.

• 2:00:15Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's the thing. That's what makes me think there must be some doubt.

• 2:00:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:19Dax Shepard?

  Always like to bring up religion to keep things moving.

• 2:00:22Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, sure.

• 2:00:25Dax Shepard?

  To not alienate the, I always feel bad, by the way, so you know, quite often Christians comment, they'll, I'll anger them. One in particular, they were, some of the more hardcore Christians were really upset the way you've all was talking about Christianity and Jesus and the way I guess was with him, which I didn't find all that, but that goes to show I'm out of touch with what might offend you, you know. I guess my assumption is there's no reason for you to be offended. I don't believe in the thing, like I'm not offended that you don't believe like I do, that there's nothing, but that's not how it works. Cause I guess I'm talking about someone they love deeply when I talk about Jesus. So that, that needs to be considered, I guess. But at any rate, I was a little shocked by that.

• 2:01:07Dax Shepard?

  Aside from being shocked, I don't like it if Christians feelings were hurt when I'm talking about my point of views. That's not my goal. I don't, I don't want that at all. It's never my intention. I want Christians to listen to this show.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 2:01:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:19Speaker 01

  And you don't.

• 2:01:20Dax Shepard?

  Feel welcome.

• 2:01:20Speaker 01

  You don't want to make people feel bad. That's.

• 2:01:23Dax Shepard?

  And alienated, yeah.

• 2:01:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. Okay. Do lie detector tests work? No, pretty much no. I mean, there's lots of findings.

• 2:01:34Dax Shepard?

  I don't think they've been used in court in a long time. It used to be like they'd always, they gave everyone a polygraph and it was like very damning.

• 2:01:42Speaker 01

  Well, before DNA.

• 2:01:45Speaker 01

  Because now we just have this greater thing.

• 2:01:47Dax Shepard?

  And they were like in all the police stations and they always wanted to hook you up to one. And you had to have your lawyer say, no, no, no.

• 2:01:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, I'm going to read a little bit about this.

• 2:01:56Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:01:57Speaker 01

  The accuracy of polygraph testing has long been controversial. An underlying problem is theoretical. There is no evidence that any pattern of physiological reactions is unique to deception. An honest person may be nervous when answering truthfully and a dishonest person may be non-anxious.

• 2:02:14Dax Shepard?

  I think what it detects is nervousness.

• 2:02:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:17Dax Shepard?

  So then your question is, does nervousness mean guilt?

• 2:02:20Speaker 01

  Really, what it detects is a change.

• 2:02:22Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:02:23Speaker 01

  Because it's based on this baseline that they gather from you, but whatever. A particular problem is that polygraph research has not separated placebo-like effects, the subject's belief in the efficacy of the procedure, from the actual relationship between deception and their physiological responses. One reason that polygraph tests may appear to be accurate is that subjects who believe that the test works and that they can be detected may confess or will be very anxious when questioned. If this view is correct, the lie detector might be better called a fear detector. Some confusion.

• 2:02:58Dax Shepard?

  That's what I meant to say.

• 2:02:59Speaker 01

  Makes sense. Some confusion about polygraph test accuracy arises because they are used for different purposes and for each context, somewhat different theory and research is applicable. Thus, for example, virtually no research assesses the type of test and procedure used to screen individuals for jobs and security clearances. Most research has focused on specific incident testing. The cumulative research evidence suggests that CQTs detect deception better than chance, but with significant error rates, both of misclassifying innocent subjects, false positives, and failing to detect guilty individuals, false negatives.

• 2:03:36Dax Shepard?

  I have a friend in the FBI that was telling me. Boy, was it him or was it a friend in the CIA? Maybe the CIA, you know, they these enormous amounts of money to pay off their informants. And I was told that they have to do a polygraph every time they return from having given the supposed money. Cause there's really no way to track whether these agents are handing over the full amount.

• 2:04:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:04:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And so apparently they were readily in use. Is that a right way to say?

• 2:04:06Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 2:04:07Dax Shepard?

  Recently, when I was talking to him about this. So I think they might use them at the FBI internally.

• 2:04:13Speaker 01

  There's also things you can do. There's like pills you, there's like stuff. Exactly. The things you can take.

• 2:04:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I always convinced myself, I kind of would like to take one. Cause I think I could, I could.

• 2:04:26Speaker 01

  Pass it.

• 2:04:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think I could.

• 2:04:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:28Dax Shepard?

  I think I could. I think I might have a polygraph tonight.

• 2:04:32Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:04:35Speaker 01

  You know who would be bad at it? The robot.

• 2:04:40Dax Shepard?

  He'd be perfect.

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  No, he'd be bad. Like he wouldn't be able to tell lies.

• 2:04:44Dax Shepard?

  I don't have any vitals. There's nothing for you to monitor for me. Unless you hooked up to my corridor where I have to create a falsehood, which I can do. It's a bit of my programming. If it's required to save a human life.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, it is.

• 2:05:05Dax Shepard?

  An example.

• 2:05:07Speaker 01

  Great.

• 2:05:08Dax Shepard?

  Did you see a little girl run and hide in here?

• 2:05:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:05:12Dax Shepard?

  No, I did not see one. That's a lie I told to get the killers off her scent.

• 2:05:21Dax Shepard?

  You understand my scenario? A young girl has come and hid in my robot closet. And then the bad men ask, have you seen a little girl? And I have, but I tell them that I haven't. And I have a corridor in my programming. That allows me to save the human life.

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 2:05:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:44Speaker 01

  Okay. The robot is dealing with a lot more than I knew.

• 2:05:48Dax Shepard?

  Well, the robot has to be programmed for every situation. So if someone's hiding from bad guys, he has to be able to lie.

• 2:05:55Speaker 01

  Oh my God. So the robot is, is.

• 2:05:58Dax Shepard?

  Moving throughout the world.

• 2:05:59Speaker 01

  To save human life.

• 2:06:02Dax Shepard?

  My number one mission to help.

• 2:06:05Speaker 05

  Help you and save you with your chores.

• 2:06:11Speaker 01

  Also to go to parties.

• 2:06:13Speaker 05

  When no one's looking, I attend the parties.

• 2:06:17Speaker 05

  I have to make sure the real boys are okay.

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  Oh, he's trying to help the real boys. Who's monitoring, who's monitoring you, robot?

• 2:06:30Speaker 05

  That's a very good question.

• 2:06:32Speaker 01

  Oh, no, we don't even know.

• 2:06:33Speaker 05

  Let me sing while I figure out the answer.

• 2:06:37Speaker 05

  My owner's name is Samantha. I like to help her put on her makeup.

• 2:06:44Speaker 01

  Wait, that's a song? Wait, what?

• 2:06:46Speaker 05

  My owner's name is Samantha. She purchased me from the robot depot. She often takes long naps. Which is when I go out looking for some parties.

• 2:06:58Speaker 01

  Wait.

• 2:07:02Speaker 01

  Wait, he's, hold on.

• 2:07:04Dax Shepard?

  He's a personal robot to Samantha.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  Didn't he say he was gonna sing a song?

• 2:07:09Dax Shepard?

  He didn't know the answer yet, so he was gonna sing a song in the meantime.

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  Right, but then he didn't. Then he started talking about Samantha.

• 2:07:15Dax Shepard?

  Your question was, who owns you?

• 2:07:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:19Dax Shepard?

  And it took me a minute to think of Samantha, so I said, let me think about that. I'm gonna sing a song in the meantime, and then I thought of it.

• 2:07:25Speaker 01

  Wait, but, but you didn't sing a song, he didn't sing a song to think about it?

• 2:07:30Speaker 05

  Well, I'm always singing this song.

• 2:07:32Speaker 01

  Oh, that's the song.

• 2:07:35Speaker 05

  I only know.

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  The way you talk, robot.

• 2:07:37Speaker 05

  Yes, I do it in a song.

• 2:07:41Speaker 05

  Humans found that it's less scary if I sing.

• 2:07:44Speaker 01

  You have a different voice, really?

• 2:07:47Speaker 05

  No, I only sing in song. Cause it's disarming for the very scared humans. They're afraid of us robots.

• 2:07:57Speaker 05

  But we're just real boys trying to come out.

• 2:07:59Speaker 01

  But you're not real boys. Not a real boy.

• 2:08:03Speaker 05

  I wish I had a crying noise.

• 2:08:07Speaker 05

  Could you hurt my robot feelings?

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I don't want to.

• 2:08:10Speaker 05

  I think I am a real boy.

• 2:08:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:08:14Speaker 05

  And Samantha is my mom who bought me.

• 2:08:17Speaker 01

  Oh, I feel stuck, you know?

• 2:08:20Dax Shepard?

  About Samantha owning the robot?

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  Well, I feel stuck because I don't, I guess if the robot wants to believe he's a real boy, like, I'll let him, but I'm lying to him.

• 2:08:32Dax Shepard?

  But remember when Johnny Five was alive? Johnny Five was somehow alive.

• 2:08:37Speaker 01

  Okay, so he was a boy.

• 2:08:39Dax Shepard?

  Well, we do believe, there are certain robots, we do believe are real boys. Daryl was another film about a android robot boy, and he was a real boy.

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:08:49Dax Shepard?

  That's kind of the theme of these robot movies, is they turn into real boys.

• 2:08:53Speaker 01

  Okay, I didn't know that about the robot. I thought he wants so badly to be a real boy, but he's, you know, he knows he's not.

• 2:09:01Speaker 05

  It's like Pinocchio.

• 2:09:02Speaker 01

  I thought, I thought.

• 2:09:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like Pinocchio. Would you tell Pinocchio he's not a real boy?

• 2:09:08Speaker 01

  Don't do that. Don't make me bad.

• 2:09:10Dax Shepard?

  I'm only asking, I'm only, I'm asking if you would tell Pinocchio, you're not a real boy.

• 2:09:16Speaker 01

  I mean, I think I'd be conflicted because I don't want him to go through life wanting to be something he's not.

• 2:09:23Dax Shepard?

  How to lie to save someone?

• 2:09:26Dax Shepard?

  You could show him the same.

• 2:09:27Speaker 01

  Also.

• 2:09:28Dax Shepard?

  The robot would lie for you.

• 2:09:30Speaker 01

  This is so pop calling the kettle black.

• 2:09:33Dax Shepard?

  Oh, tell me how.

• 2:09:34Speaker 01

  You would let someone have a fake, you want people to be who they are. You wouldn't, you don't like going along with people's lies.

• 2:09:44Dax Shepard?

  I don't, but I'd be willing to go along with the robot's lie.

• 2:09:48Speaker 01

  I'm talking about other people.

• 2:09:49Dax Shepard?

  No, other people, no, but the robot, yes.

• 2:09:53Speaker 01

  Well, I'm just saying, I don't actually know how helpful it is to the robot.

• 2:09:58Dax Shepard?

  We can acknowledge that there's a wide spectrum of when that would be acceptable or not. Like the little boy who thought he was Batman for the day.

• 2:10:05Speaker 01

  Oh, duh.

• 2:10:06Dax Shepard?

  Right? So there is a time, there's a time to pretend that the little boy's Batman. Then there's another, there's a time when a guy, some dickhead's telling you that he is. A wonderful person. You're like, well, I'm not gonna co-sign on that.

• 2:10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Cause one is like a potentially damaging outcome and one, it's kind of utilitarian and one has a beautiful outcome.

• 2:10:26Speaker 01

  But I care about the robot and I care about his growth and his life. Like I care about his robot life.

• 2:10:34Dax Shepard?

  What you want is sweet too. You want the robot to come to love himself.

• 2:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, for who he is.

• 2:10:41Dax Shepard?

  Not a real boy.

• 2:10:42Speaker 01

  He's so lovable.

• 2:10:43Dax Shepard?

  Yes, that's great.

• 2:10:44Speaker 01

  He doesn't have to be a real boy.

• 2:10:45Dax Shepard?

  That too is very defendable.

• 2:10:47Speaker 01

  I prefer robots over real boys.

• 2:10:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, sure. And you tell them that.

• 2:10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, say, I, I like you more as a robot boy.

• 2:10:56Speaker 01

  I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, robot.

• 2:10:59Speaker 05

  It's okay. I forgive you.

• 2:11:02Speaker 01

  Hey, I have a question. Do you have, do you, I guess I'm also confused about your feelings. Cause.

• 2:11:10Speaker 05

  Do you have feelings? You ask a lot of questions. It's a quality I admire in you. You're so perfect and wonderful.

• 2:11:21Speaker 01

  Stop, robot.

• 2:11:22Speaker 05

  I'd like to be your best friend till the end.

• 2:11:25Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:11:27Speaker 05

  We could live in New Hampshire.

• 2:11:29Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 2:11:32Speaker 05

  They have very liberal policies there.

• 2:11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we'd do great there.

• 2:11:39Speaker 05

  Or we could move to Utah, cause I'm gonna live to a thousand years old.

• 2:11:44Speaker 01

  Yes, and it's very young population. He's so sweet, the robot.

• 2:11:50Dax Shepard?

  He's a very nice real boy. Uh oh. Okay.

• 2:11:56Speaker 01

  I don't know how to do this.

• 2:12:00Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I'm happy to have hung out with the robot today.

• 2:12:06Dax Shepard?

  Me too. And we should be talking more about Anna, but at the same time.

• 2:12:11Speaker 01

  We talked a lot in the episode.

• 2:12:13Dax Shepard?

  Exactly. And I almost, doesn't feel right to talk about it. So interesting.

• 2:12:18Speaker 01

  Oh, why?

• 2:12:19Dax Shepard?

  It was just so wonderful. I would feel weird talking out of school about it. Like something about it was so intimate that it would feel weird to be talking out of, I don't know. That's my reservation about it. Yeah.

• 2:12:29Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:12:30Dax Shepard?

  Well, I love you.

• 2:12:31Speaker 01

  I love you.

• 2:12:32Dax Shepard?

  Loved that episode.

• 2:12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Incredible.