Red Flags To Watch Out For & The Keys To A Healthy Relationship w/Lori Gottlieb EP 1191

Today’s guest is Lori Gottlieb. She’s a psychotherapist, podcast host, and New York Times bestselling author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which has sold over a million copies and is currently being adapted as a television series for ABC. She's the host of the popular podcast Dear Therapists and she’s now releasing a new workbook that serves as a companion to her best-selling book called Maybe You Should Talk To Someone Workbook: A Toolkit for Editing Your Story and Changing Your Life. In this episode we discuss the biggest red flags to look out for in relationships, how to improve your trust and communication with your partner, why it’s dangerous to rely on your partner to make you happy, the key things healthy relationships have in common and so much more! Check our part 1: www.lewishowes.com/1190For more go to: www.lewishowes.com/1191Mel Robbins: The “Secret” Mindset Habit to Building Confidence and Overcoming Scarcity: https://link.chtbl.com/970-podDr. Joe Dispenza on Healing the Body and Transforming the Mind: https://link.chtbl.com/826-podMaster Your Mind and Defy the Odds with David Goggins: https://link.chtbl.com/715-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 1,191 with New York Times bestselling author Lori Gottlieb. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:29Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back, my friend. Today's guest is Lori Gottlieb. We brought her back for part two. She's a psychotherapist, podcast host, and New York Times bestselling author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which has sold over a million copies, and it's currently being adopted as a television series for ABC. And she's got a new workbook that serves as a companion to her bestselling book, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone Workbook, A Toolkit for Editing Your Story and Changing Your Life. And the first episode was so powerful, I just couldn't stop. I wanted to keep going in the interview. So this is part two. And if you haven't checked out part one yet, make sure to go to lewishouse.com/1190 after

• 1:10Lewis Howes?

  this. They're both incredible episodes. In this interview, we discuss the biggest red flags to look out for in relationships. And so many people miss these specific ones we talk about here. How to improve your trust and communication with your partner. Why it's dangerous to rely on your partner to make you happy. And so many people do this. The key things healthy relationships have in common, and so much more. And if you know anyone that is in a relationship, or is looking to get in a relationship, or is struggling and wanting to improve their relationship, then send them a link to this episode right now. They will be inspired by Lori's message. Just text it to them, post it over on social

• 1:54Lewis Howes?

  media. Make sure to tag me and Lori as well on your social media profiles. So we know who is listening and consuming this while they're listening to it. And a big shout out to the fan of the week. Who is from Giovanni and they said, hey, a new subscriber and I've learned so much from you, Lewis, from episodes with Mel Robbins, Matthew McConaughey, and Joe Dispenza. You and your guests provide excellent value on your show to learn from and just overall value. So, big thank you to Giovanni for leaving us a review. And if you guys want a chance to be shouted out on the School of Greatness podcast, then go to Apple Podcasts right now, subscribe and leave a review. Or at any time during this episode, if you're

• 2:36Lewis Howes?

  inspired and something really stands out to you, just share some feedback in the review section of the part you enjoyed the most. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Lori Gottlieb.

• 2:52Lewis Howes?

  So if you feel like you're a good team, you got the character qualities of they show up for you, they're reliable, you feel like you can trust them, they have emotional generosity, flexibility, similar lifestyle, and the quality on a daily basis is good, then that's a pretty good mess, is what I'm hearing you say.

• 3:11Lori Gottlieb?

  Again, there's those intangible qualities, but if all of that is there and that's going on, yeah, yeah, like, look at the Goodwill Bank. How's the Goodwill Bank going?

• 3:19Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 3:20Lori Gottlieb?

  You know, if you did the assignment that we gave this person, Elena, on our podcast, you know, to like, really keep that log of the day to day, what does it look like? And you have to think, you know, people think when they first meet someone, they're thinking so much in the present, instead of, you know, like, they're like, yeah, well, you know, this person doesn't really call when they say they will, or yeah, this or that, but it's okay, because there are all these other great things and, you know, they're like obsessed with that person. And I always say to people, like, is this the marriage you want? Is this what you want 15 years from now? Is this, do you want to worry about, like, why this person isn't calling me? Or are they going to be there? Or they forgot to do this? Or they said they were going to pick up the toilet paper, but they didn't?

• 4:01Lori Gottlieb?

  Every time. They always have an excuse. They lie about the little things. Like, you know, there are those people who are like, they won't just tell you, yeah, you know what? I forgot to do that. This is, I had this, I had this experience with this couple where he was always coming up with excuses because he didn't want to take responsibility for the things. And they were just little lies. And she's like, "Why would you lie about these tiny little things?"

• 4:24Lewis Howes?

  Instead, I want to be responsible.

• 4:24Lori Gottlieb?

  Instead of just, right. And so, and so there was this one time where he was supposed to go to the market. And she was always, they had kids, and she wanted him to get organic strawberries. Because she was worried about the pesticides and the little kids. And he bought the regular ones. And, and he used to lie about it and be like, "Oh, they were out of organic." And this time, he said, "You know what? I just, it totally slipped my mind. It totally slipped my mind. I should have bought the organic ones, and I didn't do it." And she started crying. She said, "You told me the truth." Like, "All I wanted was the truth. I just wanted you to own it and acknowledge it and take responsibility." He's like, "I'll go back and I'll go exchange them right now." And she's like, "No, no, no, it's fine. Like, you told me the truth. You forgot. Please don't forget next time." He never forgot again.

• 5:09Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 5:09Lori Gottlieb?

  But do you see how these little things in relationships can change a dynamic?

• 5:13Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 5:14Lori Gottlieb?

  In a big way. He never forgot again, and she trusted him.

• 5:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What would you say are the biggest red flags, then, women should look for when entering a relationship?

• 5:24Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, I think it's not a gender thing. You know, I think, I think people. I think you, you know, you look for just, how, how do I feel around this person?

• 5:37Lori Gottlieb?

  You know, do I, do I feel on edge? Is there something, you know, I think even when people are ignoring the problems, there's a place of knowing that we all have inside of us that gets drowned out by all the noise out there, right? The bigger voices, like, "I really want this to work out." Or, "Look at, look at how great, you know, on paper, this person is." Or, "Or I feel really good about myself because this person's a catch." You know, or whatever it is. Or, "I'm this age and I really feel like, yeah, you know, what happens if I don't, if I give this up? What if I don't find somebody?" Those are those really loud voices. There might be this really quiet voice that says, "I don't think this person is the right person for me." Or, "I don't really trust this person." Or, "This person isn't really as stable as I would like." Or, "This person drinks too much."

• 6:23Lori Gottlieb?

  Or, "This person doesn't really emotionally regulate." Or, "This person says mean things to me, and I don't like that." And, "Yeah, they were drunk, but I don't like it."

• 6:33Lewis Howes?

  Right, and be aware of that.

• 6:34Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 6:34Lewis Howes?

  If they continue doing this, which they probably will or may, are you okay with that?

• 6:38Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, well, if you talk to them about it. And what does that look, again, the repair, and then do they change their behavior as a result of that?

• 6:47Lewis Howes?

  Right, if they don't change the behavior, then you're staying.

• 6:50Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, you can justify it any way you want, but you're not listening to that voice inside of you. So I think we all have this place of knowing, it's not your friends' opinions. Like, you know, it's always like, I think your friends have all these opinions, and then we try to like, crowd source.

• 7:04Lewis Howes?

  Oh, this guy's amazing, you're so lucky to have this guy in your life, he's a catch, like, what a great guy.

• 7:08Lori Gottlieb?

  You don't have to live that life. And I think the same thing, by the way, going back to affairs, like, people say, like, leave the guy. Like, he's trash, leave him. And it's like, you don't have to live this person's life, and this person might have really good reasons why the affair didn't break their marriage. You know, so when someone had an affair, like, don't go telling 12 of your friends. Like, right away, like, you need to process this, maybe go to a therapist, process this. But don't go telling, like, 12 people, and don't broadcast it, and don't go on social media about this. Because you might actually find that you love this person and want to stay with this person, and that this person really is the right person for you, and they will never do this again, and they will not, you know, like, they understand what happened.

• 7:50Lewis Howes?

  But telling the world and your family, your friends, they're never gonna support that person in your life again. Every time you go around for the next years, you're gonna make it uncomfortable.

• 7:59Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 7:59Lewis Howes?

  And that's gonna be rupturing the relationship in the future.

• 8:03Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, and what feels really good in the moment is to blame your partner. Now, yes, they're responsible for having the affair, but they're not necessarily responsible for all the other factors that are going into this.

• 8:12Lewis Howes?

  Yes, interesting. What are the, um, what are some unrealistic expectations that people should stop having?

• 8:21Lori Gottlieb?

  How long do you have, Lewis?

• 8:22Lewis Howes?

  While entering a relationship, because I feel like people, not just women, on men, men are women, but people have an expectation that their partner should be kind of like everything. You know, and should be perfect, and...

• 8:35Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 8:35Lewis Howes?

  All these things. What are some things that they could have a standard? You know, I want my relationship to have this standard, but this expectation is unrealistic.

• 8:43Lori Gottlieb?

  If you ask people if they have unrealistic expectations about certain things, nobody thinks they do. So people will say, no, no, no, no, no. I know that they don't have to be like, you know, the hottest person, or the most this person, or they make the most money, or they're the most charming, or funny, or entertaining, or whatever it is. I know that. But that's not what their behavior says, you'll find. So people with unrealistic expectations are often the people who don't realize that they have them. People who actually have realistic expectations sometimes think they don't have realistic expectations. It's interesting. There's a sort of a lack of self-awareness there.

• 9:19Lewis Howes?

  That's funny.

• 9:20Lori Gottlieb?

  The unrealistic expectations have to do with, you know, maybe it's like, you know, it could be around appearance, it could be around what the other person is going to do for them. When somebody isn't satisfied in their own life, they somehow think it's the other person's responsibility to make them happy, to fill the hole, to fill the gap. You know, when they're having a hard time in their life, suddenly they're bored in the relationship, right? It's like, I don't feel good about myself, and oh, look, I wonder if maybe I'm with the wrong partner. I wonder if she's the problem. I wonder if he's the problem. You know, I'm feeling stuck in my life. Oh, maybe I need a new relationship. As opposed to maybe there are other things that are making you feel stuck in your life.

• 10:05Lori Gottlieb?

  And this idea that I think that some of us have, that we would never articulate, but that your partner's there to save you. You know, save me from my damaged childhood. Save me from the other hurts in my life. Save me from these wounds. And when there's misattunement in the relationship, and there always will be, so again, I'm very suspicious of couples who say, oh, no, we agree on everything. There will be misattunement, because somebody's tired one day, somebody had a bad day, or you're just different people and you see the world differently. So when there's misattunement, suddenly that person becomes, "Oh, you don't understand me." As opposed to, "Wait, you didn't understand that. Let me explain it again. Let me help you understand me. Because you thought this, but actually what I'm trying to say is this."

• 10:49Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 10:49Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? But then people don't do that. So they think, "Oh, they just sit with it and they go, "My partner never understands me. Every time I say something, my partner thinks this. But I've never tried to help them to understand me." They're supposed to magically intuitively be telepathic.

• 11:02Lewis Howes?

  Read my mind.

• 11:03Lori Gottlieb?

  Read my mind and understand me in exactly the way that I need to be heard and seen and felt. Now, in therapy, we have this expression, "Feeling felt." That that's what you want. You want to feel felt. And it's such a great feeling when it happens. But even therapists will get it wrong. You know, sometimes I will misunderstand someone, but the person doesn't like yell at me about it. Or they don't think like, "I need a new therapist." Because we'll repair it right there in the moment. But they don't do it with their partner. They'll go home and their partner will make the same mistake I did. And they will say, "Oh, I don't know if I should be with this partner. He doesn't understand me." And the partner's like bewildered. Like, "I didn't even know that I didn't understand because you never told me I didn't understand."

• 11:44Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 11:44Lori Gottlieb?

  So I just assumed that I was, that I understood you.

• 11:47Lewis Howes?

  When, when do you know that your partner understands you, even if they completely disagree with you? When, when should someone know like, "Okay, they disagree with everything I just said, but I feel felt and they understand me at least."

• 12:01Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, because we say that expression, "Feeling felt," because you feel it. So it's not, it's not up here, it's in here.

• 12:08Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 12:08Lori Gottlieb?

  Probably just.

• 12:09Lewis Howes?

  Oh, you're good. It's an emotional feeling. I feel, okay, my partner disagrees with everything I just said, but they understand where I could be coming from if they stepped in my shoes.

• 12:20Lori Gottlieb?

  I think it has to do with respect, right? You feel respected in that moment. You feel like, like, and you feel loved and cared for. Like, you and I see this very differently, but I love you, I care for you. I don't agree with you.

• 12:35Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 12:36Lori Gottlieb?

  But I respect you as a, as a human. Like, I respect you as a person.

• 12:39Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 12:40Lori Gottlieb?

  Um, I'm not gonna like cast aspersions on your character.

• 12:44Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 12:45Lori Gottlieb?

  Because of this.

• 12:45Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 12:46Lori Gottlieb?

  Like, I can, I can accept and acknowledge the separateness of us as two different human beings. And when people get really enmeshed, they have a real problem with that. Like, someone will say, "My friend did this. Can you believe that my friend did this?" And her partner will say like, Yeah, well, but I can kind of see, because you also did this. And she's like, "How can you take her side?" "I'm not taking her side, I'm just giving you a perspective." "I see it a little bit differently." "I can see why you felt the way, I can see why you feel hurt." "I can see both and." "And if you can't accept the both and about yourself and your partner, "then you're gonna end up feeling very alone."

• 13:25Lewis Howes?

  So it's almost like you need to be flexible in their communication as well, "and them not siding with you on everything, "but saying, 'Okay, I understand where you come from, "and I see this perspective, I just see it differently.'"

• 13:36Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 13:36Lewis Howes?

  So having the flexibility to be okay with that also.

• 13:38Lori Gottlieb?

  Like, "I can hold both."

• 13:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:40Lori Gottlieb?

  "You can hold both, and I can hold both, "and we care deeply about each other, "and we have each other's backs." "Which doesn't necessarily mean we agree, "we have the same perspective on every single thing."

• 13:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. At the beginning of this year, I had, "I started seeing a therapist in a previous relationship. "And the therapist had me just working on my own healing stuff, "that's like healing stuff that I was going through. "She had me put a photo of myself around five or six years old "on my phone, so I see it. "So I still have this up, "where I just constantly remind myself, like, 'You're safe, you're okay, "I got your back, we're, you know, we're healing together, things like that.'" "It's been a beautiful journey for me to like, "work on inner child healing, "and just kind of the memories of the past." "And I'm curious about just like,

• 14:32Lewis Howes?

  "the consistency of healing in a relationship." "And, because I heard you say that like, "it's hard to fully heal alone. "We almost need a mirror to be able to practice and integrate this, "is what I think I heard you say, right? "It's like, you need to have someone where you can practice it coming up. "If you're in a vacuum, you're not gonna be triggered."

• 14:51Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 14:51Lewis Howes?

  It's like, can you show up differently in the future and not repeat the past? What is the thing people usually need to heal? Is it something from childhood? Is it something from previous relationship? Is it their whole life?

• 15:05Lori Gottlieb?

  It can be anything from, you know, there's different. We use the word trauma a lot and people say, oh, you know, trauma is, trauma is something big. Like someone died in a car crash or you were in the war or, you know, systemic racism, right? All traumas that people accept as trauma. Think about though, the daily trauma.

• 15:25Lewis Howes?

  The little t's.

• 15:26Lori Gottlieb?

  The little, the little t's, but they're big t's because the trauma might have happened to you once, like you got in this bad accident and you're traumatized by that or, you know, whatever it might be. The, the dailiness of a parent saying, you're stupid. What's wrong with you? You're so stupid, right? We had someone on our podcast like that. And, and he, you know, we, we really like got him through that in that hour of, of going through a way to think about it differently. And he, he needed to understand, like this was real trauma. And he knew that, right? He knew that, but he kind of felt almost like, like nah, it's not really that best. Right, right, right. But, you know, just like you're worthless, you're stupid.

• 16:11Lori Gottlieb?

  What's wrong with you? All those things. And think about the number of times that that happened. If you add all those up, I mean, that's trauma.

• 16:20Lewis Howes?

  It's a lot, yeah.

• 16:21Lori Gottlieb?

  So when you talk about, when you talk about the inner child, and I love what your therapist had you do, it's really important that we are able now, we weren't then, able to be that adult for our inner child, but now we are. So don't expect your partner to be that, that you have to be that for yourself. And then your partner is there because you're not in that toxic environment anymore.

• 16:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:44Lori Gottlieb?

  So it makes it safe for you. It makes it safe for you as the adult. It makes it safe for you as the child. And at any given moment, by the way, a different age of us will be exposed. So like, you know, you go home for Thanksgiving, you're 12, you know, with your siblings or whatever it is, right? You know, something happens with your partner that just feels very similar to you of some feeling you had when you were five. You're five, you're gonna act like you're five. You know, there are times when you act your age. So you don't know, like, so I always say to people, like when couples are getting at it in couples therapy, I'm like, how old are you right now? I will say that to them and they'll step back for a second and go, oh, I know exactly how old I am. I'm eight, I'm sixteen.

• 17:27Lewis Howes?

  Ooh. So you mean, how old are you emotionally reacting?

• 17:31Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes, yes, yes, right now, right now.

• 17:33Lewis Howes?

  Not physically.

• 17:34Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes, that's what I meant. So they're doing something, something's happening for them and they're not able to kind of, I can see them regressing.

• 17:40Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 17:41Lori Gottlieb?

  And their partner's getting really frustrated. And you're watching this happen and I just say to them, "How old are you right now?" And if they can just step back and they have so much compassion for that kid that they are eight, or twelve, or sixteen, or whatever they are. And so does their partner, by the way. When their partner says, "Oh, you look like a grown man."

• 18:00Lewis Howes?

  But you're acting like a seven-year-old.

• 18:02Lori Gottlieb?

  But that eight-year-old, and they don't mean it in a pejorative way, they don't mean it, they're not judging their partner. They become really compassionate, like, "Oh, that eight-year-old." And they move toward their partner. Like, I can see that. So the partner isn't healing the eight-year-old, but the partner is creating this environment that lets the eight-year-old do, that lets the adult do the work for the eight-year-old there.

• 18:26Lewis Howes?

  What should the adult be saying or doing for the younger version of themselves that is having an emotional human experience that is not their age in this moment? What's the conversation or the?

• 18:39Lori Gottlieb?

  It's exactly what they wished at age eight, that someone would have said to them. We all know what that is. We all know what we wanted to hear because as a kid, you fantasize about it. You look at other people's parents and you say, "Oh, that interaction." You know, like, you can see what you would like it to look like.

• 18:55Lewis Howes?

  Whereas my parents were like that, you know?

• 18:57Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:58Lewis Howes?

  So saying that out loud internally to your eight, twelve, sixteen-year-old self?

• 19:04Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, right.

• 19:04Lewis Howes?

  In that moment?

• 19:05Lori Gottlieb?

  I feel really kind. Have you ever noticed how unkind we can be to ourselves?

• 19:09Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 19:10Lori Gottlieb?

  Have you ever noticed that?

• 19:10Lewis Howes?

  My entire childhood, it's pretty much unkind.

• 19:13Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 19:13Lewis Howes?

  To myself.

• 19:14Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, but we carry that into our adulthood. And so I had this patient who was like so self-critical and she did not realize it. And you have to realize, and I said to her this, that the person we talk to most in the course of our lives is ourselves.

• 19:29Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 19:29Lori Gottlieb?

  And what we say to ourselves isn't always kind or true or useful. I say that all the time to people. I will say that till I'm blue in the face because people don't get it until they try this exercise, which was what I had her do. I said, "I want you to write down everything you say to yourself over the course of a few days. And then when you come back next week, we're going to talk about it." And so she did the assignment. She was very skeptical. She's like, I'm not that. I'm not that. I'm not like, not that.

• 19:52Lewis Howes?

  Like every thought that comes to you.

• 19:54Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, yeah, like everything. Like when you hear, it's like this radio station is playing in the background that you think you're not hearing because it's just like playing in the background. Or like a TV show that you have on in the background, right? You're like, I'm not really paying attention to it. I'm doing other things. But no, you hear it. And so she came back and she starts to read this and she said, I can't even read this. I am such a bully to myself.

• 20:13Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 20:14Lori Gottlieb?

  And there were little things she would do in the course of a day, like she was typing an email and she made a typo and the voice in her head said, you're so stupid. Like it was spontaneous. And she would not have paid attention to that before. Like she didn't know she was saying that. Or she passed her reflection in a mirror and she said, God, you look terrible. Now, if your friend or someone you cared about made that typo or looked however she looked that day, you would not truly think that person is stupid or that they look terrible. You'd think like, oh, you know, like they made a typo. It's like there's no emotional generosity toward oneself.

• 20:46Lewis Howes?

  Yes. So what should we be doing instead?

• 20:49Lori Gottlieb?

  And so, and so it's starting to notice. How do you talk to yourself? You know, like whose voice is that? It's not yours. We are not born with that voice. So that voice came from people who raised you. It came from the culture. It came from, you know, the people around you. It came from whatever we're being told. It's external is the point. It's external to you. It is not of you. So we need to listen to that voice inside of us that is of us. And we will be so much kinder, not only to ourselves, but to other people. Because as we always know, like the biggest bullies are, you know, twice as mean to themselves. Right? So when you think about like the environment, I talked about the biosphere before,

• 21:31Lori Gottlieb?

  like the ecosystem in your relationship. That's the ecosystem in your home we saw during COVID, right? Where everybody was like in the same contained space. And we were all worried about the contagion of the virus. And I said to people, I want you to look at the contagion of mood. Look at the contagion of anxiety. If someone is anxious or someone's in a crabby mood or someone is being unkind, everybody's going to be crabby or anxious or unkind.

• 21:56Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 21:57Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? Because it's so contagious.

• 21:59Lewis Howes?

  So when a partner is coming from that space of angry, upset or negative mood, what should be done in order to try to shift that energy without? Rushing them along, but without allowing it to be going on for so long that it's just like sucking up all the air and the energy of the atmosphere, what should happen next?

• 22:19Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. I mean, it depends what they're going through. If they're going through something that's kind of like, they're grieving something, or there's a loss, the worst thing you can do is rush their wellness. We call that actually rushed wellness, where you are trying to kind of, "Oh, well, it's been a year. Shouldn't you be over this?" It's like, but the person's still dead. It's like, what does that even mean? You know, so how are they grieving? What does their grieving process look like? What kind of support are they getting? Are they able to talk about it? Do they have a therapist? Do they have a grief group? You know, what are they doing in their lives to go through this process? How can you support them in it? So there's that. But I think if, you know, if people are just being crabby,

• 23:03Lori Gottlieb?

  or they're just being unkind because they're worried about a promotion at work, or, you know, someone, their brother said something mean to them, or, you know, whatever happened, and they take it out on you, that's when you've got to say, "Wait a minute, what's going on here?" Right? Let's talk about what you're upset about.

• 23:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 23:23Lori Gottlieb?

  Before it gets to that point. You know, and if someone's really anxious all the time, it's like, "What are you doing to..." Let's talk about the anxiety in the household because it's really contagious. Like, I can support you in certain ways, but you might need to get a different kind of support. Maybe it's medication, maybe it's a therapist, maybe it's, you know, why don't you explore some options?

• 23:44Lewis Howes?

  True. If someone is bringing in this contagious energy from a previous relationship, you know, they're recalling events from the previous relationship, they're talking about the previous relationship, they're in fear from things that happened, they don't want it to reoccur in this current relationship.

• 24:04Lewis Howes?

  How important is it to let the past be in the past and not bring it up? Or how do we not ruin the current relationship by talking about the past relationships? What is that balance? It's like, well, here's what's happened in my previous relationships, but not talking about it all the time.

• 24:19Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, so that's called punishing your partner for the crimes of some, for someone else's crimes. You don't want to punish your partner for someone else's crimes. So your other partner, previous partner, treated you a certain way, and then you don't trust your partner. You know, you're like, why are you looking through my phone? Oh, well, because in my last relationship, this happened, and so I want to make sure it's not going to happen to me again. But I didn't do that to you, right? And I don't like people looking through my phone. There's a difference between secrecy and privacy. We all need privacy in relationships. We all need privacy. So secrecy is something like, you know, Carl Jung called secrets, it was like emotional poison,

• 25:04Lori Gottlieb?

  or something like that. It was, you know, it's a poison when you keep secrets. That's different from privacy. Privacy is we're allowed to think things and feel things. We don't need to share every thought or feeling that comes across our frontal lobes. We don't, you know, or anywhere in our brain or in our heart. We don't need to share everything, right? So it's not like you have an x-ray of the other person. So what I, in this relationship that I'm talking about, she was, she was like, but you know that I have these trust issues. And he said, yeah.

• 25:36Lewis Howes?

  But I'm not breaking your trust.

• 25:38Lori Gottlieb?

  But I'm not, I'm not doing anything to break your trust. And you know, and by the way, let's redefine trust. So a really good redefinition of trust is that you are okay with what you don't know. That you feel safe with what you don't know.

• 25:51Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:52Lori Gottlieb?

  Then you really trust someone. If you can feel safe with what you don't know, that's trust. What she was confusing was she was saying, I will trust you if I know everything. No, no, no, no. Trust is going to be if you don't know everything and you feel safe.

• 26:07Lewis Howes?

  Yes, how does someone get to that place where they have no reason to mistrust someone? You know, they're, everything they say they're doing, they're backing up, you know. Maybe you checked their phone because you thought something and then you didn't see it and everything was fine. Like, how do you get to a place of just accepting their word and trusting them?

• 26:26Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. So it's within reason. So if someone says, you know what, I have a sensitivity around if I text you and I don't hear back for, you know, five hours.

• 26:36Lewis Howes?

  Then I get annoyed.

• 26:37Lori Gottlieb?

  And I know, and you're in town and you're at work and things are normal or whatever, right?

• 26:41Lewis Howes?

  Your phone is near you, yeah.

• 26:42Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, and I know you keep your phone by you all the time. That's gonna make, that's gonna trigger me. And so then you want to make sure that you respond to the person in a timely manner, but that doesn't mean like you have 30 seconds. So it has to be reasonable.

• 26:54Lewis Howes?

  Where are you, where are you?

• 26:54Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, you have 30 seconds or else I'm gonna like, you know, I'm off to the races. You know, those kinds of things. What does it mean? What is, what do you mutually agree on? Like, how often do we need to be in contact? What does it mean to be in contact? And what feels good to both of us? Because it's not gonna work if it doesn't feel good for both of you.

• 27:11Lewis Howes?

  For both. It's only feels good for one and the other person feels like, ah, I'm constantly having to do something I don't wanna do.

• 27:16Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 27:17Lewis Howes?

  That's not good.

• 27:17Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. And then what the person does is they become untrustworthy because they don't wanna report in. And so then they start hiding things just because they weren't given enough space. It's kind of like, I use this analogy with parenting, but I think it works in relationships too, which is the aquarium. So it's like, you don't wanna be so confined that you feel like you're in a fishbowl, but you don't want the boundaries to be so loose that you're like in the ocean. You wanna be in an aquarium with your partner, which is that like, we're in a safe, contained space, but we both have enough room to swim around.

• 27:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I've got some darkness over here. I can just chill and I can go there.

• 27:49Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 27:50Lewis Howes?

  But I'm still in the bubble, but you know, let me just be alone for a minute, yeah.

• 27:53Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 27:54Lewis Howes?

  Well, so the difference between secrecy and privacy in a relationship.

• 28:02Lewis Howes?

  What's, what do we need? And should everyone have access to someone's passwords and phones and at all the time? Or is that not necessary?

• 28:11Lori Gottlieb?

  I mean, you know, I think that people have to agree again, but I think this idea that, you know, like, you can look at my phone whenever you want.

• 28:20Lewis Howes?

  You shouldn't need to.

• 28:21Lori Gottlieb?

  Will feel very intrus- well, but it feels very intrus- I don't even, I'm saying, I don't think that that's, I don't think that person has the definition of trust that I'm talking about, which again is that I feel safe with what I don't know.

• 28:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:33Lori Gottlieb?

  Meaning, I know that you're not doing anything to betray me, so I don't need to look. If someone gives you reason to look, that's a completely different thing. You know, if someone's, if someone gives you any kind of reason. That's like a completely different kind of conversation that you have.

• 28:48Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 28:49Lori Gottlieb?

  But if this person has been trustworthy to your knowledge, you know, this idea that like we need to know everything about each other. By the way, you want to kill sex in a relationship? Know every single thing about each other. You will kill the erotic energy in the relationship.

• 29:04Lewis Howes?

  It's a mystery, right?

• 29:05Lori Gottlieb?

  You need, yeah, you need some separateness. You need some differentiation between you are you and I am I. And we are different people. And if you know every single thing about that person, there's no gap to bridge. What, what happens with the erotic energy is like, we want to bridge this gap. We want connection, right? We've been apart, we want to connect. If you've been fused, it's kind of like, oh, wait, actually I want space.

• 29:30Lewis Howes?

  Right, you need space.

• 29:32Lori Gottlieb?

  You need space, yeah.

• 29:33Lewis Howes?

  It's the mystery that brought you together in the first place that made you attracted to each other. You know, it's like if you know everything all the time, it's hard to keep that going. You need that space. How much space do you feel like you need in a relationship? To make it like still feel that sexual attraction and chemistry?

• 29:49Lori Gottlieb?

  It's everybody's different, you know, but I think, I think you know it. I think when one person feels like, wait a minute, this feels intrusive, that's their, their body is telling them something. You feel all these things in your body. So a lot of people say, how will I know? Like as if it's an intellectual thing. And I always say your body will tell you. You know when you recoil from that person. You know when you feel like, oh, I hear their voice and they've just walked in the door and I'm not ready for this. You know, it's not even like, like something that goes, it's like you feel it in your body. Did you just tense up? Did you feel it in your stomach? Like what just happened? Did your breathing change?

• 30:23Lewis Howes?

  Right. What should you do in that space where you're not like, I want to leave this relationship, but I just need space? And, and create a conversation where it's safe to say that?

• 30:33Lori Gottlieb?

  I think it's all about audience and presentation. So, so choose your audience well. Do you have a partner who can hear what you're saying? And not, not hear it as a rejection?

• 30:43Lewis Howes?

  Take it personally or?

• 30:44Lori Gottlieb?

  Because, you know, a lot of what people call complaints are actually compliments. And what I mean is, and I talk about this and maybe you should talk to someone, is that when someone is complaining about something, they're basically saying, I want to get, I want to have a better relationship. They're not saying to you, "I want to break up with you." They would just say, "I want to break up with you." So when they're saying like, "Hey, I want to come to you with this." Like, "I need more space." I'm saying that because I want to be in this relationship. I value this relationship. I love you, I care about you. And what's not working for me is that sometimes I need some space after work. Or I need some time to myself on the weekends. I don't want to do every activity together. Or I need to go out with my friends. Or whatever it is. And that's what's going to help me in this relationship.

• 31:28Lori Gottlieb?

  Because I want to be with you. I can't, I won't be able to be with you if I don't have some kind of, if we don't work out something around the space.

• 31:36Lewis Howes?

  Some arrangement around this.

• 31:37Lori Gottlieb?

  So it's a compliment to see like, "I love you enough, I care about this relation enough, to this relationship enough to bring this up with you." If I didn't care, I wouldn't bring it up, I'd just leave.

• 31:51Lewis Howes?

  And how toxic is it, in your opinion, to think that the partner is supposed to make you happy?

• 31:59Lori Gottlieb?

  The thing is, even if you don't call it toxic, it's just dangerous.

• 32:03Lewis Howes?

  Okay, why?

• 32:03Lori Gottlieb?

  Because, because they can't. They can't make you fundamentally happy. They can bring you joy. It's, you know, it's a great joy to be with someone whose company you really enjoy, of course. But they can't heal those wounds for you. They can't take away the hurts. They can't repair everything that happened for you in your life. They can't do that. You're going to have to do that for yourself. Again, they can provide that sort of containing, warm, holding environment in which you feel safe enough to do that. But they can't do it for you. And when you depend on someone else, you were talking about expectations earlier. When you depend on someone else to do that for you, they will inevitably fail because hashtag human.

• 32:48Lori Gottlieb?

  Because they are human. They can't, they can't do that.

• 32:51Lewis Howes?

  So don't have an expectation that you meet this guy or this girl or whatever, and they're going to make me happy. They should be able to add to my joy.

• 32:59Lori Gottlieb?

  Be additive, yes, they're gonna, they're gonna, your quality of life will be greatly enhanced if you have a good relationship. Okay?

• 33:06Lewis Howes?

  But you gotta focus on your own happiness.

• 33:08Lori Gottlieb?

  But, but in terms of, you know, those things where they're going to be misattuned to you sometimes, they're going to upset you sometimes, they're gonna do things that you think, "How could the person I love me make that choice?" Right? You know, they're not going to be some like, you know, magical fairy person.

• 33:25Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 33:27Lewis Howes?

  And what about the online world? How have you seen this as a therapist? The online world supported or hurt relationships? You know, is online dating overall? Have you seen it to be a positive thing? And also, is just social media hurtful or helpful when in that relationship with someone?

• 33:48Lori Gottlieb?

  And I would say to both social media and online dating, both and.

• 33:51Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 33:52Lori Gottlieb?

  I think that online dating makes it possible for people to meet who ordinarily would not meet. But that's really all it does. So it's not like, you know, it's like we used to meet people in a much more organic way, but we don't do that anymore. So now you can meet people and it makes it a lot easier. The downside of that is that there's this illusion with online dating and apps that, you know, you go out on a date. Yeah, I hear this all the time from people. They went out on a date, they had a good time, no butterflies, but it was, they had a really good time. Like they spent three hours there. Like they, you know, they had a pretty good time. But yeah, no, you know, I don't know. I just didn't feel like the chemistry or I don't know or whatever it was. And so, you know, but there's this other guy, you know, whatever.

• 34:37Lori Gottlieb?

  So then they like keep going through the apps. As opposed to why wouldn't you go on a second date with that person that you just had a pretty good three hours with? Like spend another two or three hours with that person. You can spend one hour and you do it, do coffee so you can get out, you know, easily if you want to. But you had a pretty good time. And I think people think that like it's gotta all be there right away. And actually, they did these studies where they followed couples over 20 years, this longitudinal study. And what they did was they didn't do reporting where you look back and you say, what was your first date like? They actually did reporting at the time. So they got all of these reports, you know, they followed them every five years and they would interview them. And the people who were happy 20 years later,

• 35:21Lori Gottlieb?

  when they recalled their first date, they would say, oh yeah, I was so into him, I was so into her. It was amazing, right? In those reports, often they would find, what they reported at the time was, "Really nice person." You know, like, "Yeah, no, I had a good time." Like, there wasn't like this magnetic attraction.

• 35:38Lewis Howes?

  Explosion of the butterflies.

• 35:39Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, sometimes there was, but in more cases than not, there wasn't.

• 35:43Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 35:43Lori Gottlieb?

  And then when you looked at people who were divorced or really unhappy but still married, and you asked them about it, they're like, "I didn't, I didn't really like him that much."

• 35:52Lewis Howes?

  Oh, really, in the beginning?

• 35:53Lori Gottlieb?

  They've revised the story. But when you go back to what they actually said at the time, they were like, you know, lots of chemistry. So in other words, our opinions about people change the more we get to know them. And so if you go out with somebody once, twice, three times, right? And you had a pretty good time that first time, go out with them again. Like, why wouldn't you go out with them twice or three times? And see what happens. People won't do that, and they keep like cycling and juggling all these different people. Like, maybe the next person will be, you know, like, "I'll feel more attraction to." But maybe that person, you don't have as much kind of emotional chemistry with.

• 36:31Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 36:32Lori Gottlieb?

  You know, so then that person's ruled out. You know, you didn't have enough in common, or whatever it is.

• 36:36Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 36:37Lori Gottlieb?

  So like, at what point, or it's like musical chairs, like, at what point are you gonna sit down? Because the chairs are gonna get filled.

• 36:43Lewis Howes?

  Well, I think you hear people say, you know, "Don't settle." But it's like, how do you know when you've not settled?

• 36:47Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 36:47Lewis Howes?

  And you found a great match, but it's...

• 36:50Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, so the thing is, you never wanna feel like you're with a person where you settled, and you don't wanna feel settled for. But I think, again, going back to defining things, what does settling mean? So, so there was this, there was a study that was in one of my earlier books, where men and women were asked, you know, what would it, what would it take to get a second date? Like, what, what qualities would a person need to have? So, men named three things that a person would have to have for them to wanna go on a second date with that person. And they said, "She has to be attractive enough," and they did not mean like she has to look like a supermodel. They meant like, "I think she's cute." That's all. "I think she's cute." Like, they know, you know, they know that they're not like a supermodel themselves. "She has to be easy to talk to, and she has to be kind." Like, she can't be like, "Oh, you know, mean to the waiter,"

• 37:35Lori Gottlieb?

  or, you know, like, kind of entitled, or whatever. You know, just like, she has to like seem like a really nice person.

• 37:39Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 37:39Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay, that person gets a second date. Women named 100 things, so from 3 to 100, 100 things that would not get a guy. A second date. And they were, you know, these like really, really picky things.

• 37:53Lewis Howes?

  He was shorter than me, if he was this, he was that.

• 37:55Lori Gottlieb?

  He was this or that, or the other thing, like, you know, oh, he wore khakis. And, you know, like, just really ridiculous. Or he didn't like, like, you know, or he made.

• 38:03Lewis Howes?

  His hairstyle.

• 38:03Lori Gottlieb?

  His hairstyler, he did this, like, really, like, you know, by the way, people are nervous on first dates.

• 38:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, they're sweaty, they're stressed.

• 38:10Lori Gottlieb?

  People can get nervous, they might be like, maybe they were a little bit overly animated because they were trying to impress you. Maybe they, you know, they were just like trying to entertain you and it was a little too much. But like, overall, you had a good time. And overall, you, there were these, there was enough there that maybe you'd go on a second date. And if they're that way on the second date, then no, don't go on the third date.

• 38:32Lewis Howes?

  Right. Gotcha.

• 38:34Lori Gottlieb?

  But I think we have to, we have to kind of remember that, like, it's a process. And so many people want immediate gratification. They want like that story of like, we met, it was immediate.

• 38:44Lewis Howes?

  Explosive and chemistry and.

• 38:45Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 38:46Lewis Howes?

  And so when someone feels this like instant attraction and explosive chemistry and like finishing of each other's sentences or whatever this is, these butterflies the whole time and couldn't stop thinking about them all week. If what I'm hearing you say is that sometimes or most of the time, like 20 years later, those don't work out.

• 39:05Lori Gottlieb?

  No, they can work out.

• 39:06Lewis Howes?

  They can.

• 39:06Lori Gottlieb?

  But, but sometimes, and again, it depends where you are in your own healing.

• 39:10Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 39:11Lori Gottlieb?

  Sometimes what your unconscious is doing is saying, oh, you look familiar.

• 39:16Lewis Howes?

  It's familiar.

• 39:17Lori Gottlieb?

  Come closer, right? You look familiar, like, it's like this, and, and his unconscious and her unconscious, like, and, and them, you know, whoever you're dating, right? This works and this is not gendered at all. This works no matter who your partner is and who you are, right? That if something feels familiar to you in this very, you know, unconscious way, and you haven't worked that stuff out, the unfinished business, you're gonna be like, yeah, this feels really familiar, but it feels so good, right? Come closer, it feels so familiar to me.

• 39:44Lewis Howes?

  If something feels unfamiliar, but it feels good. Is that a sign that?

• 39:49Lori Gottlieb?

  That's you and your girlfriend.

• 39:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, is it like, oh, maybe you're like, you're choosing something different and you're experiencing something different. Is that something that people should keep exploring or what do you think?

• 39:58Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. If it feels better, right? It feels good. Again, keep that journal. Look at the, look at the bank account that you guys are creating together, your joint bank account. Are there five deposits for one withdrawal?

• 40:11Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:11Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? You're experiencing that right now. It's unfamiliar, but it feels healthy.

• 40:16Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 40:17Lori Gottlieb?

  Feels good.

• 40:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:17Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 40:20Lewis Howes?

  Man, what else do you see right now that people are really struggling with when you're doing therapy with them? Or just the emails, the calls coming in for the podcast you guys are doing? What's kind of the common theme of right now?

• 40:35Lori Gottlieb?

  I would say connection.

• 40:36Lewis Howes?

  People are lacking the connection?

• 40:38Lori Gottlieb?

  People are lacking connection, or they want to learn how to better connect. So they have someone that they want to connect with, but they're bungling it up in all kinds of ways. That's sort of what happens on our podcast every week.

• 40:53Lewis Howes?

  They're bundling it up?

• 40:54Lori Gottlieb?

  They're bungling it, yeah.

• 40:55Lewis Howes?

  What does that mean?

• 40:57Lori Gottlieb?

  You know, it's like they want to have this healthy relationship, and they're afraid to have the conversations, they don't know how to have the conversations, they're doing things they know they shouldn't be doing, they don't see their own role in it, you know, all of those things. But again, I think, you know, I think that it's so relatable because we all act this way. We all have our blind spots. We all think that we're extremely self-aware. And you can't see what you don't know. You don't, it's like you don't know what you don't know.

• 41:31Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. What's someone, what's something we should do on a weekly basis to check in with our partner to make sure we're cultivating that connection? Is it a question we should, hey, every Sunday, we're gonna have this 10-minute conversation? What should we talk about? Or?

• 41:47Lori Gottlieb?

  I notice as a therapist that people talk more about what they don't want than what they do want with their partners. So they'll say like, "I don't like it when you do this," or "I wish you wouldn't do this," as opposed to "I really like when you do that. I felt great when this happened. I want more of that," or "I like that," just appreciating that, right? If you're always telling people what you don't like about them, it's hard for them to see what you do like about them.

• 42:16Lori Gottlieb?

  So I think that people need to spend more time telling the other person what they do want. You know, when we talk about complaints as compliments, you can say to somebody, say you feel like your partner isn't being affectionate enough with you. Right? You can say like, "You never kiss me when you come in the door," or "You don't hug me enough." Or you can say, "I really love it when you come in the door and you kiss me."

• 42:39Lewis Howes?

  As opposed to being like, as opposed to making them defensive by saying, "You're not doing this enough," and they're like, "What do you mean? I was just doing this earlier, and I did this before, and you're not appreciating it." But when you show, like you said, appreciation, "I really appreciate it when you do this."

• 42:53Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 42:53Lewis Howes?

  It's gonna make you wanna hopefully do it more.

• 42:55Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. And also not arguing with people's feelings. Like, I can see the other side of that where someone says to someone, you know, "I really like it when you hug me when you come in." And then, you know, maybe it's a guy who says to her like, "But I do, I hug you all the time."

• 43:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:11Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? And she's just like, "Okay, now we're gonna fight over the content," which is like, "How many times do you actually hug me? And when was the last time you hugged me?" Which is different, which is just like, "Oh, oh," you know, to register for yourself, "Oh, she feels like I don't hug her enough." So it doesn't matter whether I do or I don't. The point is she feels like I don't, so I'm gonna make a conscious effort to make sure that maybe when we're watching TV together, I'm gonna put my arm around her.

• 43:35Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 43:35Lori Gottlieb?

  Instead of arguing about, "But I just hugged you yesterday, you know, when I came home, and I hugged you the day before, and I'm sure that I hug you every day." Don't argue about it, just be like, "Oh, noted."

• 43:44Lewis Howes?

  All right, let me give you a hug later, yeah.

• 43:46Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 43:47Lewis Howes?

  What would you say, you know, obviously you're, you work with a lot of couples that are experiencing some type of problems, right? Most of them, they'll come into you and say, "Everything's amazing. We're just here to like, just make sure it's still amazing," you know? Which I think it's actually, I think it'd be healthy for relationships to, you know, get into therapy sooner, when things are actually good, for like, just to check up every now and then and say, "Hey, how can we keep cultivating this?" But I'm curious, from the relationships you've seen that have been thriving, like, it's pretty healthy, happy, thriving, like, it seems really good. What would you say those key things that they all have in common?

• 44:23Lori Gottlieb?

  Mmm, kindness.

• 44:25Lewis Howes?

  Kindness.

• 44:25Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah. You can't take back the unkindnesses. They're there, they live there. You know, people will remember, by the way.

• 44:34Lewis Howes?

  Always. I remember three years ago when you did this thing.

• 44:36Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, I remember, I remember when you said that thing. I remember how it felt in my body. So kindness is especially important. And I would also say, there are all these cultural norms that we have to get rid of. Like, I had this couple where, you know, it was a heterosexual couple and she said to her, to her husband, "I just, I feel, I want to get closer to you. I feel like, you know, I want to know what's going on with you. I wish you would share more with me about your inner life. I feel like there's this distance between us." And he was like this guy's guy, right? And finally, finally, he, he opens up to her. And he gets a little tear.

• 45:19Lori Gottlieb?

  And I see her body, I'm watching her, and she's sort of, she's there with him, right? And then he starts crying, he starts talking about something really difficult. He has been holding in for a really long time. And she, on the one hand, feels so much compassion for him, and on the other hand, she's terrified. Because, you know, she kind of looks at me like, "What do I do now?" And so it was this interesting thing in our culture about safety with men and vulnerability. Because on the one hand, she's saying to him, "I don't feel safe when you don't share with me. I feel distanced from you, I feel separated from you, I feel disconnected from you. I don't feel safe in our relationship when you're over there and I'm over here and we are not meeting." But on the other hand, if you start crying in front of me like that, and you really are

• 46:02Lori Gottlieb?

  vulnerable and you let down your guard like that, I also don't feel safe, not because of anything you did wrong, but because I've been told by society that you are weak when you do that. Right? Like, I feel like you are now not my rock, and you are now, you are not strong for me. And I didn't even realize I had those perceptions. I didn't realize that that's how I grew up, but that's what society has been telling me, that when a man cries like that in front of me, that he's weak and now I don't feel safe, and that somehow as a woman, I'm weak if I don't have a man to be strong for me. So we had to talk about all of these, all of these ideas that have been, you know, we've been brainwashed.

• 46:40Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 46:41Lori Gottlieb?

  And so then we have to like, do the un-brainwashing. And then they can actually come closer to each other, and he didn't have to be the rock all the time, and she didn't have to feel like, "You have to save me all the time."

• 46:52Lewis Howes?

  I'm so happy you said this, Laurie, because I wrote a book about this a few years back called The Mask of Masculinity, and I went on tour. I don't know if I told you this before, but I went on tour to talk about this and... The rooms were typically 50/50 men and women who were in the rooms. And I would say this exact thing that like women would say, well, I wish my, my partner, my husband were, were more sensitive or emotional or vulnerable and open up. And I'd say, well, you've got to learn to be there and be able to handle it. Because I've talked to so many men who say, you know what? My wife keeps telling me they want to do this and I finally do it. And then they're like, well, I need you to be strong. Now, I don't feel safe. Exactly what you said, I was like, I'm so glad you said this. From a therapist's point of view and not just, you know, a guy saying this,

• 47:36Lewis Howes?

  but I'm so glad that you're saying this and that you've witnessed this with your, your couples that have come in and you've actually seen this.

• 47:42Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, I'll tell you.

• 47:43Lewis Howes?

  Because I feel like it's, it's so hard for men to want to express their vulnerabilities. And if they don't feel, and I had a previous girlfriend that I would cry in front of, that I would show, you know, my vulnerabilities and was freely doing it. I never held back because I was comfortable doing it myself in certain moments. You know, when I'd see something on TV or a movie or a sensitive thing, I'd show emotion. And it's like she couldn't handle it. It's like she could not handle it and she was like, crying is weakness. And she didn't cry in front of me and I was just like, man, you're never gonna have respect for me if you think I'm weak for showing vulnerabilities. And then why would I want to be vulnerable around you? If you're gonna disrespect me, I'm gonna want to gain your respect. And I'm gonna want to get harder and have a wall, which luckily I didn't do.

• 48:27Lewis Howes?

  But it's like in general, a lot of men do that.

• 48:30Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, what you're doing is you're being really courageous, right? So I think it takes an incredible act of bravery to say to somebody, this is who I am.

• 48:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:39Lori Gottlieb?

  And so, and she's saying, oh, that makes you weak. No, it makes you strong.

• 48:42Lewis Howes?

  That's what I say.

• 48:43Lori Gottlieb?

  It's like, it's like, it's like you, you are so okay with yourself.

• 48:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I don't care if you make fun of me, I'm still gonna do it.

• 48:48Lori Gottlieb?

  Like, this is me and I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna share with you and I'm gonna be in this relationship. It's so interesting that you say that. So I'm raising a boy and I noticed this because during COVID, you know, everyone was saying, talk to your teenagers, talk to your kids about what they're experiencing. A lot of them are anxious and depressed and all these things are happening. And my son one day said to me, he said, you know, that's really easy for people to say, but boys don't talk about this stuff. And I said, and I said, "Yeah, what do you think makes it so hard?" And we had a little chat about it. And we actually put it on Instagram because I thought it was really important. And all these people responded to it. So he started...

• 49:24Lewis Howes?

  Didn't he write an article? I saw you send me about the time.

• 49:26Lori Gottlieb?

  He wrote an article for Time Magazine, but he started this thing called Talk with Zach on Instagram.

• 49:31Lewis Howes?

  I saw this, yeah.

• 49:32Lori Gottlieb?

  And he just wants to model that, like, for boys and men, that like you can talk about what you're feeling. You can be vulnerable. In fact, not only can you, but you should because you want to be a whole human being. And I think that it's been really interesting because it's opened up the eyes of women and girls.

• 49:50Lewis Howes?

  Yes, that's beautiful.

• 49:52Lori Gottlieb?

  You know, it's like, I have so many men who come to me for therapy and they say, "I can talk to my guy friends." People think that your guy friends will make fun of you if you open up to them. They won't, actually. The people who I'm most afraid to talk to, they'll say, is my girlfriend, my wife, right? Like, my sister. Like, these are the people who... But your girlfriend or your wife especially because they depend on you in this way.

• 50:13Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. They tell me you need to be the rock because they may not be the emotionally stable person majority of the time. Maybe they are or not.

• 50:20Lori Gottlieb?

  The problem is, though, like, so John, in my book, he's one of these people who would like hold it all in, right? And then there's this tragic thing that happens in his marriage. And he and his wife are both grieving. And he says, "I had to be the rock. Like, I couldn't cry." And he's the one who has insomnia. He's having nightmares. But he can't talk about any of it. She's the one who always cries all the time. And I said, "Maybe she's crying for both of you." And it just stopped him in his tracks. "Maybe she's crying for both of you." And when he was able to start talking about what had happened and this loss that they'd had in their marriage and in their family, their marriage completely changed. It transformed, right? Because he didn't have to be... He thought... She didn't tell him, "You have to be the strong one for me."

• 51:05Lori Gottlieb?

  It was something that he just took in from the culture. And when he was able to share in the grief and the loss and they were able to kind of do this together, it was a game changer.

• 51:16Lewis Howes?

  What I feel like society needs in general is more men to be courageous enough to be vulnerable.

• 51:25Lewis Howes?

  In sensitive moments and more women to be strong enough to be there when their male partner is being vulnerable and sensitive.

• 51:35Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 51:36Lewis Howes?

  And not making them wrong, or laughing at them, or feeling unsafe in those moments. I truly believe that when, when men can learn to have a safe environment to communicate effectively and vulnerably in appropriate times, there are gonna be a lot happier people in general. There's gonna be a lot less stress in the world. It's gonna be a lot less fighting, arguing, power struggles, political struggles, you know, wars. I just feel like when men can learn the process of being able to express themselves and being accepted for it, they won't need to put up these walls and try to like protect themselves all the time.

• 52:13Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, and, and what, what happens is they don't deal with what they're experiencing. So, so you'll have so many women come into therapy and say, you know, "Oh, I think I might be struggling with depression, or anxiety, or whatever, or relational difficulty." And men just never talk about it. And you can see what happens.

• 52:32Lewis Howes?

  And the weight.

• 52:33Lori Gottlieb?

  It affects their physical, right, it affects their health, and, and it comes out in other ways, right?

• 52:36Lewis Howes?

  The anger, the resentment, the stoicism, yeah.

• 52:39Lori Gottlieb?

  Too much food, too much alcohol, you know, drugs, just short-temperedness in relationships.

• 52:47Lewis Howes?

  Pornography, sex, chi, whatever it is.

• 52:49Lori Gottlieb?

  Pornography, right, any kind of, any kind of distraction from the pain. It's really their self-medicate.

• 52:53Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:54Lori Gottlieb?

  They're really trying to medicate themselves, or saying, you know, like, "I am really in distress, but I don't know where to go with it."

• 53:01Lewis Howes?

  So how can, I mean, what needs to happen first? Men should start being more vulnerable and intimate in their relationships, you know, even if their partners are not willing to accept that. Women should start saying, "Hey, I want this." Like, your, your, your couple came to therapy and said, "I wish he would do this, but then when he started to open up, she was like, "I don't know how to handle this."

• 53:26Lori Gottlieb?

  Here's what I say to couples about that now. I say, "You're going to need a disclaimer." Because there's nothing they can do at that point if you've given the disclaimer that doesn't, you know, that, that doesn't keep them aware. So you can say to your girlfriend, your wife, you can say, You know, I, you asked, you want me to be closer with you. You want me to open up to you. I really want to do that. I think it would be really good for us. I'm worried that if I do, that you're, you know, there are all these stereotypes in our culture that you're gonna, you're gonna feel really uncomfortable, that it's gonna make you uncomfortable. And I'm asking you that if I do this, that you are able to sit with your discomfort

• 54:10Lori Gottlieb?

  and be present with me. Now, that's a lot of words, right? That's a lot of words, not a lot of people will say it that way, right?

• 54:16Lewis Howes?

  I'll be able to say that, yeah.

• 54:17Lori Gottlieb?

  But, but you can say something like it, like, I want to be able to do this, but I need you to be able to be there and, and not judge me. Because the last thing, if you, if you judge me, if I feel like you think I'm weak or you think anything like that, you can bet that we're not gonna be having conversations like this.

• 54:35Lewis Howes?

  Yes. I, I think this should be a highly encouraged video or audio to listen to. So if you're, one person listening to this, you should have your partner listen to this with you and listen to this last part specifically and say, hey, listen, let's try this if you feel this way. So you're both on the same page. So I, I encourage you listening to this with your partner or watching this with your partner. Yes.

• 55:00Lori Gottlieb?

  You know how, how men will often say, like, oh, when she's crying, I just want her to stop crying?

• 55:04Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 55:05Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? And yet, when a man is crying, it's not, so how will, how will a man help a woman to stop crying? He'll usually let go and hug her and comfort her. What does a woman do to get a man to stop crying? She just freezes. She really does, or she'll use words, like, it's okay, it's gonna be okay. No, really, it's not that bad, right? She generally won't go and hug him because it's, she's so uncomfortable.

• 55:32Lewis Howes?

  What should women do in that moment?

• 55:33Lori Gottlieb?

  Go and hug him. Hug him, I'm here, I'm here, tell me more. Tell me more, say more, I'm here, let's talk about it.

• 55:41Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's beautiful.

• 55:42Lori Gottlieb?

  I really want to hear this.

• 55:44Lewis Howes?

  Imagine all the men listening, imagine your partner doing that. You'd probably feel like freedom, peace, like, finally, this feeling. So for all the ladies listening, if you have a male partner who's been resistant to being vulnerable, listen to what Lori is saying about this because this could really heal your relationship in a big way and help it thrive in that process. I think that's a big part of the, the repair process from what I'm hearing you say is like, You know, obviously, when a woman feels safe to be vulnerable, they're gonna feel like they can trust their male partner more. And when a man feels safe to be vulnerable, he'll be willing to do that and trust you more with that emotional burden as well, or that weight that he's feeling, so.

• 56:26Lori Gottlieb?

  You asked me earlier, sort of like, what is the secret to success of relationships? This. This is it. Being able to know that if you go to your partner with something that feels delicate, that they won't smash it, that they won't drop it. It was like what I said before, I felt like he had grabbed his heart and extended it to her and said, "I feel lonely." And she said, "But I didn't do that." Right? Like, if your partner is going to give you something, think of it as like something really fragile and delicate. Like, you know, when you mail things, that's just like fragile. Like, be very careful with it. Like, it's really delicate. You have to be really gentle. Be really gentle. When your partner is handing you something delicate, be really, really gentle.

• 57:11Lori Gottlieb?

  Or you can bet that there's gonna be a lot of loneliness in that relationship because people are gonna go into their own silos.

• 57:18Lewis Howes?

  Man, this is so good. So, keys to thriving relationship: kindness, being gentle when there's vulnerabilities. Is there anything else you would add there? Or if you can do those two things, that's a pretty good relationship.

• 57:29Lori Gottlieb?

  And take care of your own healing. Do the work. Don't expect someone else to do it for you. Do the work. And bring that work to the relationship.

• 57:40Lewis Howes?

  I love this. I love this.

• 57:44Lewis Howes?

  You've got an amazing book. Maybe you should talk to someone. I feel like this is such a game changer for so many people. So make sure you guys pick up a copy of this book. You also have a workbook. Same title, "Maybe You Should Talk to Someone Workbook."

• 57:56Lori Gottlieb?

  The workbook, it's called, "How Changing Your Story Can Change Your Life." And it takes people through the process of rewriting their story and getting a much more accurate version of their story.

• 58:06Lewis Howes?

  Which is a game changer for your healing process to rewrite the story of the past, right?

• 58:12Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes, and even the faulty narratives that we carry around in the present. We carry around all these faulty narratives. You know, "I'm unlovable, I can't trust anyone, nothing will ever work out for me." How do you rewrite those narratives?

• 58:23Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 58:24Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 58:24Lewis Howes?

  And so this workbook.

• 58:25Lori Gottlieb?

  The workbook takes you through a step-by-step process of doing that. It's based on, maybe you should talk to someone, the book, but it's also based on my TED Talk, which is about how changing your story. Can change your life. And, you know, everybody said, when Maybe You Should Talk To Someone came out, they said, "I learned so much from the book, but I want to be, like, I want, I want a guide to do that." And so I put together this guide for everybody who has been asking for it. And I really wanted to give people the experience of what I do with people in the therapy room, how I help them edit their stories.

• 58:56Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 58:57Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 58:57Lewis Howes?

  Where can we get that, the workbook?

• 58:59Lori Gottlieb?

  Wherever you buy, Amazon, independent bookstores, wherever you get your books.

• 59:03Lewis Howes?

  It's all there. And where's the, and everything, the podcast, everything's on your website, too, right?

• 59:08Lori Gottlieb?

  The podcast is called Dear Therapist. So you can listen on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 59:14Lewis Howes?

  It's a great podcast, and Guy is your co-host on there. He's been on the show as well. He's amazing. So you guys have a great banter there. So Dear Therapist, the workbook, you're also on Instagram. I see you over on Instagram while your content as well. We'll link up that, everything in the show notes, the TED Talk.

• 59:36Lewis Howes?

  This is amazing. I want people to, you might need to go back to this conversation and take some notes and start really implementing some of these things. So hopefully, this has been a helpful resource for people. I appreciate you sharing. How else can we be a support to you? What else can we do to take action on? So let's get the workbook, get it for you and your partner, get this book, listen to the podcast. What else can we do?

• 59:56Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, I would say like the best thing that people can do is to just, you know, benefit from all of this, is to actually use it in their own lives. I feel like, you know, emotional health is not just a thing that happens between you and yourself or you and a partner, but on a societal level. If we could all do these things, we would live in a very different kind of world.

• 1:00:16Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 1:00:17Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:19Lewis Howes?

  I love this, Lori. I'm so grateful for you for coming back on and sharing this wisdom. And I acknowledge you for, man, just showing up and doing the work with people. You're in the work on a consistent basis. You're hearing these stories, you're getting feedback by giving exercises. You're, you're just a wealth of information and knowledge. So I acknowledge you for showing up and making tools for us, like the book and the workbook and the podcast. Because this stuff is messy for a lot of people.

• 1:00:44Lori Gottlieb?

  It is. It is, and that's why, you know, I feel like in the therapy room, you work with one person or two people or whatever it is. And I really wanted to make this accessible to everyone. And that's why I'm writing these books and doing the podcast and Ted Talk and all of that and having these conversations with you. Because I think that people, you know, nobody did this for people, right? Like, growing up, like, we don't, that's not what we do. We learn all these subjects in school, but we don't learn about emotional health. And so I really want to make it accessible for people and valuable for people.

• 1:01:14Lewis Howes?

  I love it. Lori, I asked you this question before, but I'm curious again. Your three truths. So imagine it's your last day on earth.

• 1:01:23Lori Gottlieb?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:01:24Lewis Howes?

  And you've, you've accomplished all of your dreams and written lots of books and created more and more content. But for whatever reason, no one has access to your content anymore. It's got to go somewhere else. Your books, this podcast, everything, it's all gone for whatever reason. Hypothetical. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world or what I would call three truths. And this is all we would have to kind of have access to your content. What would you say would be those three truths for you?

• 1:01:52Lori Gottlieb?

  Ooh, that's really hard on the spot. I would say the first one is you are enough.

• 1:01:56Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:01:57Lori Gottlieb?

  I think that people forget that. That you can be messy and fallible and imperfect and all of those things. But you are enough. Your essence is enough. I would say if you, the thing about if a fight breaks out in a bar, in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you. I would say your blind spots are important to shine a light on. It's really important to shine a light on your blind spots.

• 1:02:29Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:02:31Lori Gottlieb?

  And I would say be kind to yourself.

• 1:02:37Lori Gottlieb?

  Because then you will be kind to others.

• 1:02:39Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. I always, I've heard this in the past, I can't remember who, but it's kind of in the personal development talk. It's like what's inside of you comes out. So if you're, you know, if there's, whatever, you get cut off in the car in front of you, if you're reactive and angry, there's anger inside of you. If you're like, okay, he's probably just having a bad day, and smile. Or she's having a bad day, then there's kindness inside of you. So it's like whatever's inside of you comes out. So be aware of what's coming out of you and how you're reacting to situations. That can be a blind spot too, so.

• 1:03:14Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, and what we were saying before about like that biosphere, that, you know, if you yell at that person, then what are you putting into, what fumes are you putting out into the world that other people are going to be breathing, and you're breathing them too?

• 1:03:26Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:03:32Lori Gottlieb?

  I think it's very different from our culture's definition of greatness. I think greatness is like a feeling of peace. I think it's a feeling of peace, but not, not in a kind of a way just for you, but I think like making peace for other people in the world.

• 1:03:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:48Lori Gottlieb?

  That you're offering peace, that you're creating a way for people to find peace. That you act, you navigate through the world in a way that creates peace for other people.

• 1:03:58Lewis Howes?

  There you go. Lori, thank you so much for being here, appreciate it.

• 1:04:00Lori Gottlieb?

  Thank you so much again for the conversation.

• 1:04:02Lewis Howes?

  Amazing. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.