112: Why Emotional Unavailability Feels Safe: Understanding the 'Not Enough' Wound With Vanessa Bennett

Sabrina, alongside her guest Vanessa Bennett, dives deep into the complexities of the “not enough” wound and its impact on attachment styles, hyper-independence, and relationships. Vanessa, a Holistic Psychotherapist, shares insights from her professional and personal journey, highlighting how societal conditioning often instills feelings of unworthiness. Sabrina and Vanessa explore how hyper-independence and codependency are two sides of the same coin, both rooted in attempts to soothe the worthiness wound in different ways. Sabrina draws from her own experiences, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, setting boundaries, and embracing discomfort as essential steps in healing. The conversation touches on the interplay between emotional unavailability and intimacy, as well as the role of micro-moments in building a solid sense of self. They also discuss the nuances of conflict resolution, effective communication, and creating safe relationships that foster growth. Sabrina and Vanessa encourage listeners to navigate their healing journeys with intention and compassion. Get Vanessa's book, "It's Not Me, It's You: Break the Blame Cycle. Relationship Better." Get Masha and Sabrina's new course, the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknown in Early Dating HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free episodes HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Okay, guys, we're getting closer and closer to the end of the year. It's crazy, it's crazy. But today, I'm so excited. We have a fellow New Yorker, Vanessa Bennett. I am obsessed with her. She's fucking amazing. And today, we talk about the not enough wound and really the hyperindependence. And I think a lot of people are like, "I'm not hyperindependent." And it's like, "No, no, no, no. It's the flip side of codependency, right? The more avoidant leaning people. And I think we want to have a conversation about different types of ways that attachment styles manifest. And I think this is a really great one to understand, that hyperindependence and that more avoidant side of things, so that we can understand how other people operate, right? Because I think it's a beautiful place. So, guys, I'm super excited.

• 0:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you to everybody. As always, please don't forget, rate and review the show, share it with a friend, put it in a Facebook group, send it to your mom, your cousins, your uncles, whoever. It means the world and it helps us grow the community. So, I'm just so grateful. You guys can watch on YouTube or listen. And don't forget, send in screenshots, email us, [email protected]. The new series starts next year. We're gonna have so much fun. It's an AMA, one Tuesday every month for now, maybe it will be two. And we're gonna answer your questions. So, if you don't want to pay to have a question answered, great. Send us in the screenshots, let us know what's going on. Again, [email protected]. We are gonna have episodes next year. And we took them away from the bonus episodes, because it felt like I was pay gating and I didn't like that. So, you can get ad-free, if that's what you want. And if not, great, the AMAs will be on the main show. But we need your help. We need you guys to write in. So, please, send us all that.

• 1:31Sabrina Zohar?

  If you need anything, as always, link in show notes. You can shop the sponsors that are helping us keep the show alive. Join any of the courses. As you guys know, I'm gonna be taking less people next year, working one-on-one, because I'm writing a book and doing so many fun, new things. So, the courses are there, they're self-guided, and they have all the resources, and you get unlimited access for life. So, guys, thank you for everything. And as always, if you need anything, we are here, and I love you, guys. So, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we?

• 2:07Sabrina Zohar?

  Ms. Vanessa. Hello.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 2:09Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm so excited to have you here. Welcome to the podcast.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you for having me.

• 2:13Sabrina Zohar?

  Of course. Now, I always like to kick off the show, if you could introduce yourself, because I think in our own words is so much more fun. Who are you? What's your work? What do you do? And just tell us more a little bit about you.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  I love you say it's more fun. I'm like, oh, God, I hate introducing myself in my own words. My name is Vanessa Bennett. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in LA now by way of New York. My background is in depth psychology. So, you know, the psychology of the soul, if you will. I'm all the things, right? As we all are nowadays. I am content creator, author, podcaster, mom, partner. I mean, how many hats can I, you know, I could go on and on.

• 2:50Sabrina Zohar?

  I love it. And I'm curious, like, in your work, because I know we had Danae on, and so you guys both do the depth psychology, which is really unique for me because it's actually new for me. I didn't really understand that. But I'm curious, how did you get into that? Like, what attracted you to, I guess, that? Is it a modality or school of thought? Like, what made you choose that and go, oh, no, I really love this?

• 3:08Speaker 01

  You know, it's interesting, because I also didn't have any pre, like, a background, if you will, with Jung and Jung's work, Carl Jung. And so when I decided I wanted to explore being a therapist, I was in New York still. And I was looking at a lot of different programs. I was already kind of at that stage in my life where I was tired and ready to leave New York.

• 3:28Sabrina Zohar?

  As a New Yorker.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  As you know.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  And so I looked at a bunch of schools in New York, actually. I did, I did a ton of tours and I really resonated with a few of them. And then there were two schools in California. And actually, my therapist at the time gave me the brochure for the school that I ended up going to. And was like, I need you, you need to look at this school. So I took a trip to California by myself. I was in a relationship that was not so hot by that point. So I was like, I'm going to go to California alone, do the road trip down the coast, like, be by myself, all the things. And I stepped foot on the campus of where I ended up going. And I got, like, full body. Goosebumps. I welled up with tears. I was like, oh my God, I need to be here. And it wasn't that I had been like researching it and was so into it. It was just such a knowing.

• 4:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  And then, once I was there, I was like, oh, this is exactly where I'm meant to be. I think as another New Yorker, growing up, very linear, very left-brained, very quick, very, this is what you do, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. There's a lot of things about the Northeast, right? And our school and Jungian psychology in particular is the opposite of that. You know, it's very feminine. It's very fluid. It's very that which cannot be named. And I think somewhere down, deep down inside, my soul knew that that's actually what I needed.

• 4:44Sabrina Zohar?

  It's so funny. I actually have a similar experience when I went to school. I went to acting school and I remember I did a Reiki journey with my friend. Like I was 18 and he was like a Reiki master and I saw a red door. And I remember just being like, okay. And then when I got there, it was this big red door and I just had chills and I was like, this is my place.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Yes, those knowings.

• 5:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I love it. And I was curious too, like while, when, once you did that work and then now that you're, you know, working with people and kind of seeing that was, because really what I wanted to, for us to hit on is like this feeling of not enough, right? Those core beliefs of like, I'm not worthy, I'm not good enough. I don't feel like I'm enough. And I was curious to know, just even your personal experience, like, did that manifest? Because I don't know, Lord knows I can manifest for me, but like, what was your experience with learning about all these things, but then potentially feeling them? Like, how did you navigate all that?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Well, what's interesting about depth psychology, right, is that, like I said, it's the psychology of the soul. It tends to be more of a macro. So you don't just look at the individual person and a symptom. You really have to look at the person within the system, right? And so it's, it's all about macro, micro, meaning like, what is this serving you within the context of your relationships, within the context of your community, you know, global community, all the things. And so something like the not enough wound, had I gone to a school or focused in a different kind of program that was like, oh, you have these negative beliefs and so you have these thoughts. Let's, let's teach you some thought-stopping techniques. Let's rewire your brain.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  I'm not knocking any of that. There's a time and a place for all of that work and. So often what I see, people come to me and they've done all of that. They've done the CBTs. They've done a lot of these more medical modalities and they're like, and yet,

• 6:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Yep.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  I still feel unsatisfied. I still feel like I'm not enough. I still, I'm not happy in my relationships and my job, right? I don't have the same issues, maybe. Maybe I'm functioning more than I was. You know, I can get out of bed, but it doesn't feel like enough. And so what I started realizing very quickly is that a lot of the way that the medical model of psychology works is it's just kind of very surface.

• 6:53Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  But it doesn't go deeper. Right? And so, so much of what I started realizing, to go back to the not enough wound, is again, how much deeper, more spiritual and more connected it is to the society that we live in, the systems that we're raised in. And I started realizing that it was all by design. Meaning we are, we live within a society that raises us to believe that we're not enough, right? So that we seek external validation. It's the only way that capitalism would exist. If you truly believed that you were enough, you wouldn't keep buying shit that you didn't need.

• 7:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. You don't need the external.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Exactly. And so it's, it's a wheel, like it's feeding it, right? It's a beast, if you will. So it's like, understanding that, I think is really helpful for people because they, it takes a lot of the stigma out of it, a lot of the shame. They start to understand it a little bit differently. They can do the work internally to heal those wounds, but also say to themselves, like, I'm in a larger system. What does that look like? What does that mean?

• 7:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. For me, the not enough, I always had that fun polarity of not enough, but too much. You know?

• 7:56Speaker 01

  I mean, same, same.

• 7:57Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, perfect. Yay. I miss that scene. And I feel it's something that's so common, but I am curious because I think a lot of people, a lot of people that listen in, don't even know where to start.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:07Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? Like I've just, you know, when I had a perfect childhood, or I just don't get it. Like where could I have learned that from? And I'm so curious in your experience, like what is a place to even just be able to begin to understand? One, what does that wound look like, right? How does that manifest in our relationships and our partnerships? But then two, how can we identify it?

• 8:23Speaker 01

  For me, most of the work that I focus on is around codependency recovery and it has been for years, right? Because at the end of the day, again, talking about systems, I Thoroughly believe, and it's kind of a hill I'm willing to die in, that we live in a codependent society. We are brought up to be codependent. We are brought up to believe that's what love should look like, does look like, right? Meaning it's transactional, meaning I source my sense of self and goodness and value and worth from something outside of myself, right? And in relationship, that means it's from you. And so, number one, I do believe, step one, is to start to recognize again the systems, right? It's important. We have to see the systems and the history and the why. I thoroughly believe that. We've got it. We've got to start there. And then

• 9:07Speaker 01

  I would say, start to see where in your life, you, when you don't feel okay, I'll just use the word okay, when you don't feel okay, where, when, how, why, do you reach for something outside of yourself in order to feel okay? Right? So, the not enough wound, which is really just two sides of the same coin of the too much wound.

• 9:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, is it? I wasn't sure.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  It is.

• 9:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, that makes sense.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  It is, is really based in the, I don't feel worthy in my skin as I am, and so I either need to reach outside of myself for somebody to tell me I'm okay.

• 9:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Right? Or I'm too much, because I've been taught that that's not acceptable, right? And so I need to like minimize myself. It all comes in the same place. It's a worthiness wound. That's what we talk about.

• 9:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, which like, duh. And I'm curious, like, how does hyperindependence play into that? Because I think, we were talking offline about this, I think there is a misconception of like, no, I'm not hyperindependent, like, I just, I'm, I'm fine, I could do things on my own. And I'm curious to see, like, how does this all, because I think a lot of people wear that, like, a badge of honor of like, I don't need anybody else. I'm good, I'm on my own, I am worthy and deserving of love, but like, I'm not going to settle. And it's like, well, to me, that doesn't sound authentic.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Well, it doesn't sound authentic, and it really feels like a great way to mask from vulnerability and intimacy, right? As somebody who tends to be on the hyperindependent scale.

• 10:32Sabrina Zohar?

  So weird.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Another thing we talk about a lot is that hyperindependence and codependency are also two sides of the same coin.

• 10:39Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, go on.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  So, if you were to look at it almost as like a, like a spectrum or a scale, you would say, interdependence is in the middle, and we'll talk about that. We've got codependency on one side, and we've got hyperindependence on the other.

• 10:53Sabrina Zohar?

  Go on, because I think that interdependence is very confusing for a lot of people about what that looks like.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, so basically, both sides of that coin are, one, the codependency side is the more anxious way of trying to soothe that wound that we were just talking about, right? I don't feel like I'm enough. There's a worthiness wound here. I don't know how to self-regulate. I don't know how to feel okay in the not okay. And so I need to kind of reach for something or someone outside of myself to make me feel okay. Hyperindependence, same wound, but different strategy to soothe it. So rather than cling on and reach for another person, I'm going to shut people away or shut people out, right? And so they're both kind of filling the same hole or trying to, just with different strategies, but the wounding is still the same.

• 11:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Can we flip between the two, right? Because I was gonna say, I've definitely been codependent and then I've definitely been hyperindependent.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  In the same interaction, I will flip from one to the other. I mean, it's really just a strategy, right? And it depends on the person. It depends on the way you're relating. It depends on the day. I mean, some days with my current partner, I can slide into more of the codependent tech, you know, codependency kind of things, and then the hyperindependent the next day. I don't need you.

• 12:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  I've got it. I'm fine. I can't trust anybody. I can't rely on anybody. This is why I don't ask for help, right? We all know those.

• 12:09Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, God, I was like, no, I don't. I don't know others. I know that one. I don't, I don't need anybody. Or like even receiving a compliment, where like, oh, thanks. And you're like, someone says like, oh, that's pretty. And you're like, oh, I got it on sale. And I'm like, I don't have to defend it. I can just say thank you and receive it.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Oh, I am very like, I am really proud when I find things on sale.

• 12:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah. If it's, if it's a good one, I'm like, I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I love to boast on that. But I am curious, well, then if we're looking at that interdependence, how can we? Because I think, you know, the reality is, I think, most of the people listening, myself included, we're really on that anxious spectrum, right? We understand what the hyperindependence looks like, but I think when we're really in that world of like, I need you to tell me everything's okay. I need to know it's going to be okay. It's like, how do we slide a little bit more so that the pendulum stops swinging both ways? Like, what does that actually look like?

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Well, first off, interdependence is reciprocity. So we can't do it alone. Like, we can't be interdependent unless we're being in interdependence with somebody else, right? And we have no control over anybody but ourselves. So really, it comes down to starting to heal your own kind of codependent wounding, that like worthiness wound, right? The not enough wound that we're talking about, and starting to create and establish a feeling of trust in yourself, that you're going to be okay, no matter what, that you don't need anything from anyone else. Now, I'm not saying that in the hyper-independent way, like, I don't need anybody. I just mean, I don't need you to be anything other than who you are, for me to be okay in my skin.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  And if I need you to act differently than how you're acting, you have all my power.

• 13:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I love that.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Right? So Alan Watts, there was an image that he used forever ago that I listened to one of his podcasts. He was talking about how he uses this image of the bee and the flower, when he was talking about interdependence. And he was saying, the bee and the flower obviously need each other, but it's not like an expected need. It's like, the bee has its purpose, it has its mission, it's doing its thing, right? And it obviously needs the flower in order to survive, but it also has its own mission, its own purpose, its own reason for being here, and vice versa with the flower, right? And I loved that as a description of interdependence, because as beings, we do need other beings, right? We are social creatures. But I don't need you in order

• 14:26Speaker 01

  to survive. I don't need you in order to feel okay in my skin, in order to feel like I'm enough, in order to feel like I'm chosen. All of these things that we outsource, it's a lot of reparenting that we're outsourcing.

• 14:40Sabrina Zohar?

  I fucking love reparenting. But that's kind of also how I feel when people are like, they abandoned me. And I'm like, okay.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Well, that can be a parent.

• 14:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. And I'm like, okay, no, here's the thing. By definition, because I looked into it, and I was like, can I educate myself? Abandonment means that my life could potentially end if you leave me. So hunter-gatherers, that makes total sense, right? We're in a pack right now. If I woke up tomorrow and all of you guys left me, and I'm like, holy fuck, there's wolves, kaputts. But I think we see that. And I'm like, to me, I hear the like, that's a little kid, right? Of like, you're abandoning me, you're gonna leave me. But I'm, to me, like, I'd be curious even your perspective on that abandonment wound of like, is there validity to that? Or is it really just like a feeling that comes from the past and becomes the present?

• 15:22Speaker 01

  I mean, I think it's a yes, Ann. I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, it is valid because it does come from somewhere, right? And so we don't want to dismiss the feeling and say that it's not real. But the point is, is exactly what you said. That is that inner child version of us that that sensation, if we were still in a hunter gatherer society, would be very real, right? And also, as a baby, it's very real, right? If your caregivers weren't there, you would die. That's where that existential anxiety comes from, right? But a little bit of this idea of reparenting is like, I am now not that child. I'm not that baby. And I need to come in with my kind of adult self, and I need to be with that feeling of anxiety, feel those feelings of anxiety, ride that wave,

• 16:06Speaker 01

  recognize that I don't need somebody to soothe that for me. I can soothe that on my own. And that is that adult version of me, right? That's saying to that child, it's okay, girl. Like, I got you. We're okay. They, you know, they told you that you weren't enough, or they, you know, made you feel some sort of way, or they quote unquote abandoned you, which is really just, you know, they left. But that is not about you. That's not about your worth. That's not about your value as a person. And I can talk myself through that. But I have to feel those feelings.

• 16:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent. I remember when my sister and I were walking, and we were just one day, and I said something, and I was like, I just always felt too much. And she just looked at me and she goes, I don't get it. Where'd you learn that from? And I just snapped her and I was like, Dad. And she was like, what? I said, Dad, I was like, how did we not? I was like, anytime you went in with emotion, he would hit you, he would walk out, he would get dismissive. He was upset if you showed an emotion. And then he would be upset if you didn't, right? There was no winning with him. And I was like, so of course I didn't feel like I was enough. But then I felt like I was too much. And the harsh reality that like, I'm going to say this with a lot of love. If you're dating and you don't think that that can be picked up on, you're, you're literally kidding yourself. Because I hear this every day of like, what am I not enough? What's wrong with me? Am I not worthy? Am I not good enough? And it's like, here's the thing, I can't answer that.

• 17:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Because only you can tell me if you genuinely believe, because I could say you're worthy and deserving. But if you don't believe it, what the fuck does it matter if I say that to you?

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Right. And here's the thing, so long as you're trying to get somebody else to tell you whether or not that's true or not. You're never gonna trust and learn in yourself that that's not accurate. Like, I'm constantly looking to you to tell me, am I worthy? Am I, am I lovable? Will you choose me? I'm constantly outsourcing that. Right? And so until we actually come in and we sit with, I'm asking another person to answer a question or to plug a hole that only I can do and answer, we're never going to actually build that feeling of trust in, in self.

• 17:58Sabrina Zohar?

  A hundred percent.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Right?

• 17:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. Because like you said, if I don't know that no matter what, I'll be okay. Right? And that's, I had one of my clients, I asked her and I said, um, have you survived every bad day? And she just kind of chuckled and I was like, no, no, I'm, I'm being honest.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:10Sabrina Zohar?

  And she's like, well, yeah, I'm here, right? And I was like, so that's the point. Because I get, I'm scared of the future. What the fuck's gonna happen? This world is weird. Right? Like, I have no idea. But if I focus so heavily on what everybody else is doing, I'm completely self abandoning because I'm not actually taking care of myself to say, okay, well, they might be doing that, but I'm taking care of my side of the street. And I was curious because do you notice that this is different between genders? Or is this, I mean, it doesn't have to be, but I'm just curious. Do we see it manifest differently between, in especially heterosexual normatives? Because I think I can understand, especially in the LGBT community, that could be a really triggering thing, especially when you're dealing with same sex. But just in general, do we see this differentiate between genders? Or is this really just, you're a human, you're a fucking human and you could have this?

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know, when I first started doing this work, especially with groups, I started to notice that it felt like there was a bit of, um, like a leaning from the, the women towards more of the codependency, the anxious, right? And a leaning from the men towards the opposite. And the more work I did though, the more, first of all, I'm the opposite of that. As is Danae, right? Both of us are pretty actually avoidant and hyper independent. And so I started realizing, yeah, I would say that maybe if we're like talking numbers, there's more women that tend to be more on that anxious codependent side. But it's not, it's not a guaranteed.

• 19:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Right.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  By any means. And also there's polarity at play here. So it doesn't even, we're talking about same sex, um, relationships. If I come in with a more anxious energy, you kind of by nature of that law of polarity are gonna get pushed. Into more of an avoidant space and vice versa. If I come in with a more avoidant, you're going to kind of lean into more of an anxious. Or we could talk about this in a ton of ways, you know, it could be disencer pursuer. It could be again, hyper independent codependent. I mean, there's lots of ways to kind of talk about these different opposite yin yang kind of energies, you know?

• 19:59Sabrina Zohar?

  But what I appreciate is at least that we're, we're calling it to be able to clarify that like they're not different. Right? Like it is very similar.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:06Sabrina Zohar?

  Because to your point, like sometimes I've noticed it when I get really clingy, but like very like me, you know, give me love. My partner, I can see the like, you know, taking the deep breaths and the like, okay. And then when I'm more in my like, or he'll say something that pisses me off because he's a human, right? He did something that annoyed me in my way. I used to act out. Everything was, let me go external. You, we need to talk about it right this second and you need to tell me I'm okay. Until I learned like, no, you can, you can sit in some discomfort. And now when something happens, unless it's something where you're like, hey, that was disrespectful or rude. Right? I will stop and just tell him like, I might not even say anything, but he knows when I just sit for a minute and I'm just quiet. Right? Maybe I'm just, we're watching TV and I'm just not talking to him. Because for me, I'm in that moment of, I want to process, I want to understand what's bothering me.

• 20:50Sabrina Zohar?

  Do I want to say something to him? Do I not? But what I noticed is when I remove myself a little and not even physically, just not from the, like not just engaging as much. I start to see him come really like, he'll grab me and he'll start to come. And it's so interesting to see because I think the importance of it is like, one, we got to stop with this like, well, they're avoidant. And they're this and I'm anxious. And it's like, one, you're self identifying. Two, you can change that. Three, you got to be one, attached and triggered to feel that. Not just this person being an asshole, just ignoring you all the time. But for me, what I see, and I'd be curious your thoughts, it's, it's all just the same side of the coin of emotional unavailability as well.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Well, it's all strategies, like we were saying, at the end of the day, you guys are both enacting strategies. I don't care what side of the coin you're on, right? And the strategy is to self soothe. The strategy is to like, I feel anxious. I want to not feel anxious and I'm going to use something outside of myself to not feel anxious. So it's still like a manipulation of a situation or a manipulation of a person as a strategy to make myself feel less anxious because both of them come from anxiety. Danae and I had Stan Tack on the podcast forever ago.

• 21:56Sabrina Zohar?

  Love Stan.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  He was, he was at my house and we're sitting there and he made a comment where I like his attachment work a lot. And he said something about, well, you know that the avoidant tends to actually register as far more anxious than the anxious. And I was like, you bite your tongue. Get out of my house. You're not welcome here anymore. Like, how dare you say I'm more anxious than the anxious. You know, so like offended by that. How dare you. But he's right. I mean, at the end of the day, these are just strategies that we use to soothe our anxiety. And so it doesn't matter what side of the coin you are, you're on, as long as you're not doing that work to, to learn how to soothe the anxiety without something outside of yourself. Which, by the way, whether we're talking people, whether we're talking drugs, alcohol, social media, porn, sex, I don't care

• 22:43Speaker 01

  what we're talking about. They're all the same thing. They're all a strategy that I use to stop feeling uncomfortable.

• 22:50Sabrina Zohar?

  You know, I want to, let's touch on the, the corn, right? We'll say, because if we say the actual word, fucking porn. But I am curious for that, because I hear that all the time, especially between the porn stuff and the social media of like, well, he's following all those social media girls, right? Yeah. For me, I, I've always had a healthy relationship with porn, right? Like, it's been something where it's like, I can get my rocks off, but I can also leave this and not expect my partner to fucking gang bang me. Like, that's ridiculous, right? But I would be curious to hear your thoughts on like, one, first of all, how the fuck do you navigate that? But have you ever, I mean, I'm sure you have, I actually don't know how to help people when they'll come to me and say, like, oh, he follows all those girls on social media and like, they're half naked. I look at this as like, well, you can't really control

• 23:32Sabrina Zohar?

  what your partner does, right? But I am curious, your thoughts on even just using porn in that social media compartment. Like, when does it become not acceptable anymore? Or like, hey, this is a problem versus, hey, that's healthy and normal. You have fantasies outside of the relationship.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Well, I would say that in and of itself is healthy and normal. And a lot of us need to kind of reckon with that reality. But we don't want to, because again, it makes us uncomfortable and we don't want to feel uncomfortable. But what I will say, because I get this same, I get this all the time, a lot of questions around this. Again, we have zero control over anybody else but ourselves. Right? So if this person is, and by the way, you're entitled to your opinions. You're entitled to your level of okay around porn and social media. Everybody's entitled to it, right? But here's the thing, what you can't do is make someone else bad and wrong forever and ever because they're not acting the way that you think they should act. You have a decision that you can make.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  If this person, whether you love them or not, it's not really the question. If this person is engaging in behavior that you don't agree with, or that doesn't align with you, that's okay. It doesn't make them bad. It doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't make you bad or wrong. It just makes you potentially incompatible. And so now you get to decide, is this a person I want to be in partnership with or not? Or am I going to stay in my righteousness forever and ever and attempt to keep making this person bad and I want to control and change them so that I can somehow feel better about things?

• 25:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Mic dropping.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Again, manipulation, it's the way we do this. Because here's the thing, if I can get this person to stop looking at porn, if I can get this person to stop following women on Instagram, it says something about me.

• 25:15Sabrina Zohar?

  I was gonna say, it's so funny. I personally, I've never, like, that's just never been an issue for me.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, me either.

• 25:22Sabrina Zohar?

  I look at it as like, when are we seeing progress? Like, I've had somebody write in of like, well, yeah, okay, so like, he unfollowed like 80% of the girls. And it's like, yo, that's a lot. Like, that's, that's somebody who's saying what you say matters. And it was funny because Ryan, the other day, he was like, oh babe, look at this recipe I found. And he like shows me the video and it's a comedian.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:38Sabrina Zohar?

  No, don't get me wrong, the recipe was fantastic. Like, it looked phenomenal. And her video was, I'm single and cooking, so everything was her.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 25:45Sabrina Zohar?

  The boobs were out. And it was like comically too much, right? It was like everything was that. Very obvious what was happening. And I, and like, I did, at first I didn't even like notice it. Like, I was looking at the food.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:56Sabrina Zohar?

  And then when I saw it, I was like, oh, that's hilarious. And even Ryan looked at me and he was like, oh, this doesn't, like, you don't care about this? And I was like, this does nothing to me. You're right, I don't have that rack. And I'm okay with that. I actually got rid of that at 16, I had a breast reduction, so. A shoot to fucking loo.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:09Sabrina Zohar?

  But I looked at that because I was like, that would say something more about me than it would about my partner. You're allowed to look at this, you're allowed to. And the irony was, he did the recipe and it was phenomenal.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:18Sabrina Zohar?

  And I was like, there is a time and a place. And the same with like, I have guys with six packs on my Instagram because they're trainers and I'm inspired by them, or maybe I know them, or maybe they're just good looking.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:28Sabrina Zohar?

  And I think they're attractive. Right? But to me, I find, again, like that control, that external, I'm gonna say it, like this was to your point, what Stan said to you was when I saw the first time someone saying, by the way, if you have anxious attachment, you're emotionally unavailable as well. And I was like, don't you ever say that to me.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  We have to look in the mirror.

• 26:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I was like, that, this is my house, until I realized and I was like, oh, my God, you're right, because if I'm emotionally unavailable, right, what, what does that actually mean? Like, I'm not tapping into my emotions and feelings. I don't know what's coming up for me. I don't, I'm so disconnected from my own body. And it's like, well, that's also the anxious attachment, right? You, you, you make me feel better and then I'm good versus, oh, wait a minute, how's this impacting me? It's the same with someone more avoidant leaning, saying, no, I don't want to deal with it. I'm out. And I think that is where I'm like, ooh, I'd love more of your thoughts on how emotional unavailability shows up with these, because it sounds like all these are like little protectors, right, of like the hyperindependence and the codependence. But to me, I feel like at the root of it is really like, and I get this at question every day of like, how the fuck do I work on emotional unavailability? Like, what do I do?

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a big one. I mean, look, I tend to talk about this stuff in terms of what I call micro moments. Right? So when I talk about codependency recovery, and, and really quickly, I'll birdwalk a little bit, to go back to what you were saying about somebody saying, well, they unfollowed 80%, right? My question would be really around, like, it's not necessarily, are they just stopping the, the behavior? And I'll air quote that, because whether we're talking again about following Instagram models or drinking, it doesn't matter, right? It's not necessarily just, are they stopping the behavior? But it's, are they, are they doing and are they willing and wanting to do the work around understanding? Do they actually even see it as a problem? Right. Number one, because again, it can't be a problem just because you said it's a problem. They need to really believe that. And are they doing the work, right?

• 28:16Speaker 01

  There's a reason why in 12 step, they, they have that term, dry drunk. Just because somebody stops drinking booze doesn't mean that they've understood and healed and figured out why they've been relying on booze to begin with. They've just stopped the thing. And most likely, they probably just channeled it into something else.

• 28:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Right? It happens. I like to talk about this stuff in terms of micro moments. And the reason why I say that is because it's, it's, I like to say that codependency recovery is actually identity work.

• 28:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, go on.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  So they go hand in hand. So the more that I'm doing the work around establishing a solid sense of self and a solid sense of identity, the less control, those kind of codependent ways of relating, which by the way, it's an addictive tendency, just like any other, like I've named, it's gonna have over me, right? Like, doesn't have as much control over me. But they go hand in hand. So what do these micro moments do? The image I use is like, the image of a house. Let's say, for example, one of the struggles you come to me with is boundaries, right? Which a lot of us struggle with. I say yes when I want to say no. I'm constantly over giving. I constantly feel like a doormat. I'm constantly resentful, right?

• 29:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I never tell them how they make me feel, right?

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. And so, that's what we're talking about. And I say, cool, we start working on boundaries, we start giving examples, we start working through it in your relationships. It's in that moment where, for example, your sister for the millionth time, last minute, says, hey, I need you to go over and take care of mom today because I've got a nail appointment. I don't know, I'm pulling this, I don't know her, right? And you're pissed off because she does this to you all the time. And you say, you know what? No, I actually can't do that today. You know, I've got X, Y, and Z. It doesn't work for me. I can do it tomorrow, but I can't do it today. And you sit with that feeling of discomfort. You sit with that feeling of she's gonna be pissed, she's gonna stop talking about me, it's gonna turn into a fight, blah, blah, blah, whatever you're telling yourself. That is a micro moment, which by the way, in the moment, it doesn't feel micro.

• 30:09Sabrina Zohar?

  No.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  In the moment of doing the thing, let's be real, it feels like you're gonna rip your skin off.

• 30:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  That's how intense it feels.

• 30:16Sabrina Zohar?

  End of the world.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Let's just call it what it is, right? But when you do that thing, that micro moment is a literal brick on the house of the foundation of sense of self that we're trying to build. But think about a foundation. It takes a lot of bricks to create a solid foundation for a house, right? So every time you do the thing that feels so hard you want to die, that you know you need to do, you know you're practicing, you know, that is, look at that as an establishment of that sense of self, right? Now, when I have that solid sense of self, I'm a lot less likely to be emotionally unavailable. So this is my roundabout way to bringing it back to emotional unavailability. How do I do that? How do I heal it?

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Well, you work on building a solid sense of self.

• 31:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Yes. And to your point on all of that, like so beautifully said, I think we have this misconception that in therapy or in your sessions, I had the kumbaya moment. I had the big boo. And then that's what changes it. And it's like, no, no, no, no. What changes it is those moments. What changes it, I'll never fucking forget. The first time I ever told my dad, like, fine, I'm done. It was 2022 in January and he called me with his same bullshit. His narcissistic rage started exploding on me because I said no to him, that I didn't want to do something. And he said, you know, you're a fucking piece of shit. Don't ever call me again, hung up.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Lovely.

• 31:36Sabrina Zohar?

  And I just remember sitting there and I like, I called my mom and I was like shaking and I was with my best friend at the time and she was there. And even she was like, what the fuck was that? And I was like, that's my dad. It was, to me, it was so normal. And my mom was like, what are you gonna do? And I was like, I'm done. I'm done. I'm, I owed him a couple of bucks for my business and I was like, I'll pay him back. And I like, I remember sending it and I was like, I, thinking in that moment going, I don't even have enough money for food. Like, I literally gave him back every penny I had. And even like, I'm still even carrying some guilt of like, by doing that, I actually couldn't get my dog the medicine that he needed that like ultimately led to his demise, but like, we will leave that for another fucking day. But in that moment, I made the decision for myself of like, I'm done with this. And then I started dating this guy after.

• 32:18Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'll call him the conventionally handsome guy because I, he was very like conventionally good looking, but I could just read right through it. It was the first time I started being like, something's up. And my best friend at the time, he met her because he like dropped me off at home. It was like an innocent type thing. And you know, he was talking to her and I remember she looked at me when she left and she goes, either that's the love of your life or we're getting played. And I was like, I think we're getting played. Like it just in my gut. And so long story medium was we like, he lived in Florida. I lived in California at the time. And you know, does the whole, I come here all the time.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:49Sabrina Zohar?

  So we started doing the long distance thing and it was very quickly seeing how like he couldn't handle even direct conversation. He couldn't handle me being like, hey, you're really inconsistent. Like yesterday, you text me all day and all day, how excited you are for me to come. But then when I asked you if we could book my ticket, all of a sudden I haven't heard for you for two days. And so we, I, I remember that that time just being like, okay, explore this, sit in this discomfort. Like when I wanted to text him, I wouldn't. And I remember even just thinking like, this is for your growth. Like this might not work out. And he came back and he, he was in New York or in California. And the minute I saw him, it was just off. Like the minute, it was like all that passion and fucking intensity was just gone.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:25Sabrina Zohar?

  And it was like, he was just nagging about everything and like, fine. Then the next morning we go to class. He was just made a big deal out of everything. And it was like, the whole day went by. He was fucking asshole to me. And I went to bed that night just being like, I'm not doing this because he didn't even stay. He was supposed to stay and he stayed at hotel. And then the morning he calls me and says, um, okay, babe, I'm gonna come back. Like, let's do this. And I was like, oh, the fuck you are. And I started talking with him. I was like, you know, it was inappropriate what you did. And he says, can I come back? Can we talk? And I said, you can come back because I had all this stuff was there. And he came back and I opened the door and he like tried to come in and I was like, uh-uh. And I handed him his suitcase. And he just looks at me and he goes, I don't understand. And I was like, what don't you understand? He goes, but you know, I'm emotionally unavailable, babe. And I just looked at him and I said, oh, I know. That's your fucking

• 34:08Sabrina Zohar?

  problem. Now get off my porch. That micro moment. I remember just like, you know, on that high, you're like, yeah.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  I did it.

• 34:16Sabrina Zohar?

  And then he walked and I watched him walk off and I, all of a sudden, the little girl in me was like, you see dad walk away. And she was like, oh my God, what did you just do? And I didn't, I didn't call him. I didn't text him. I didn't reach out. And that changed the way I dated because then the next guy that pulled bullshit, I was like, I said goodbye to my father. I said goodbye to the conventionally handsome guy. Who the fuck are you?

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:36Sabrina Zohar?

  And it was a bar brick by bricks. So by the time I met my partner, I was like, what else do I have to lose? Right?

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:41Sabrina Zohar?

  And I think.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Here's who I am. Do you like it or do you not? I'm not gonna change it.

• 34:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna beg. That's what it is. Yeah.

• 34:49Sabrina Zohar?

  And I, to me, where it really moved the needle was like that self compassion, right? Like that helped me to take away, like I think of it as like Tetris, right? All those ones that don't fit is all the stuff we learned. And then I tried to, the self compassion allowed me to fill those gaps to create a solid foundation so that I could start to then grow on top of that. And, sorry, that was just my long winded fucking story of sharing.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  I have to say really quick, there's this guy, I always forget his last name, I think it's Tien, Patrick Tien, he's on Instagram as well, he's a trauma therapist, but he, there's this one little quote from him that I think resonates like with this story where he said, somebody asked him, what's the number one indicator of childhood trauma? And he said, trying to get difficult people to love us.

• 35:38Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, that's that one exactly. I was like, let's sit on that one for a second.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Holy shit, the number of difficult people in my life, starting from childhood,

• 35:47Speaker 01

  that I have tried to get to love me. And when I stopped doing that, it was a real moment of, oh, there's healing happening here.

• 35:58Sabrina Zohar?

  Yep.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Right? I'm not hustling for that belonging and that love anymore.

• 36:02Sabrina Zohar?

  There is such a power in deleting the paragraph and just being like, okay. Right? I, I even had my cousin who's been attacking me recently because she's just like jealous of what I've been doing and she couldn't achieve the same success and she's just throwing, it's so inappropriate if you saw those texts. And of course I wanted to slap back and all I remember just like deleting it and just pressing the block button. And I was like, see, I get to send, I get to, it doesn't matter if you're my family. You don't get to use that as a manipulation tactic of like, whoa, we're family. It's like, get fucked. Then speak to me with some fucking respect if you're my family.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Same as your dad, right? It's like, I don't care who you are. You are not entitled to my relationship. You're not entitled to my love. You're not entitled to my energy. Right? And, and when we start to really act from that place, again, this is not the like hyper independent, I don't need people. It's not that because I get that a lot. Oh, so what you're saying is like cut off all relationships that are hard. No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is we, we build those muscles of self-respect to the point where we say, people are not owed. My time, right? And if this is not going to be a reciprocal, healthy relationship, I get to choose, and I'm not a victim to this. I get to choose if this person is going to be my life or not.

• 37:13Sabrina Zohar?

  So I feel about the texting stuff. I'm like, I'm sorry, well, we all have our phone in our hands every day. Like, it takes 10 seconds to send a text. And I'm like, I'm sorry, who said that you are owed my time, my energy, and that just because I have a piece of technology in my hand that I want to engage with you, because one, that means I need bandwidth.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 37:29Sabrina Zohar?

  I need the attention span. It's never just one fucking text. And I think we all know that, because then I get the follow up. He only texts me once today. And it's like, because at the end of the day, that's not the issue. The issue is that you don't feel like you're enough, and that that little dopamine hit is rewarming. Yes, I am enough. See, he does like me because he texts me.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  And here's what, if you're somebody who needs consistent connection and communication throughout the day, there is nothing wrong with that. But stop trying to get it from somebody who is clearly telling you that's not what they provide. They don't have the capacity or the desire for that kind of consistent communication. Neither of you are bad or wrong. It's just an incompatibility. And the more we realize that we're trying to make somebody love us, right, to heal that wound, the more we realize, like, we're outsourcing all of our power. You are now the person outside of myself that tells me if I'm lovable.

• 38:21Sabrina Zohar?

  And especially in the early stages, right?

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Once we're in a relationship, I'm like, listen, have the conversation, right? Like, my partner fucking hates texting like it's nobody's business. We're like, he'll do it when it's like, when we're traveling. But if you've gone on one or two dates, and I'm already hearing this, like, well, they don't text me every day. It's like, this has nothing to do with them anymore. This has nothing to do with your connection. This has nothing to do with who they are. Because let me get real. Hey, I hope you have a good day. What is that doing to get to know this person any deeper? What it is, is it's reaffirming that I'm okay.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:49Sabrina Zohar?

  Look, see, see, but he texts me. I have confirmation.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  He chooses me.

• 38:53Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly. And that's where I would have to say, like, it's, we are, you're more, you have no problem saying, when I'm in a relationship, I want daily communication, of course. But, but the key word is, like, be in a relationship before we get there. And that, to me, just kind of starts to revolve around these core beliefs, and really going them to that worth, right?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  But have a conversation, like, I don't care if I'm on the second date, say to the guy, hey, let me ask you a question. It's really important to me to have consistent communication in my days, right? Is that, and if somebody says, I have to tell you, I fucking hate text messaging. Well, then don't go into this relationship thinking you're gonna change this person. They've told you clearly what they want or who they are.

• 39:31Sabrina Zohar?

  I had that on the second date.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:33Sabrina Zohar?

  I told the guy, he goes, you know, talk to me, like we, we were together at that point. We were like hanging out and he goes, you know, talk to me like what's been your difficulty in dating? And I went, oh, well, if I'm dating somebody, they need to text me every day. And he even stopped, he goes, oh.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  They need to?

• 39:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. And he goes, oh, that's not gonna work for me.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:48Sabrina Zohar?

  And this was, this was, you know, when I was before a lot of this had happened and I was like, oh, okay. Like, what do you mean? And he was like, I wanna live separately from my partner. He was like, I don't even wanna move in the same house as this person. And I remember just sitting there and being like, okay, that doesn't make you bad, right? And like the, this guy is such a good human, like that's why we never ended negatively. It doesn't have to. And he tried, he tried that a whole week. He would send me a text and I knew it was not authentic to him. I could tell by the text, I was like, you don't wanna do this. And then eventually I just told him and he was like, I'm a filmmaker, I travel a lot. And I was like, listen, I said, I wish you truly nothing but the best. He's in a happy relationship now, it works for them. But to your point, I didn't expect, like at that point, that was unrealistic of me. I need you to text me every day.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:29Sabrina Zohar?

  No, I don't. I'd like you to, and if you don't, that's okay.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  It's a desire that I have.

• 40:33Sabrina Zohar?

  And you know what Ryan and I did? He said, instead of that, I will never forget, he set that boundary going, pretty much saying, no. He was like, I'm not gonna text you every day. I stare at my screen all day, but I'll call you, I'll FaceTime you and I'll make consistent plans. And I was like, okay. I'll fuck with that.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  Perfect. I had a client, it was actually a client recently that said to me, she was talking about how in the dating apps, she has a thing right on her profile that says, I don't wanna text forever. Like I wanna basically, like, let's get right to the meeting. Because she was like, I find that sometimes that level, that kind of communication is false intimacy.

• 41:04Sabrina Zohar?

  A false sense of intimacy.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  And I was like, ooh, I like that. And I was like, I'm gonna use that.

• 41:09Sabrina Zohar?

  Every day.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  In this world that we're in, we're all so fricking over connected all the time. But am I truly being like vulnerable and deeply connected with people? No. Nine out of 10 times, I'm not, right? And it's like, so what is that giving you again? What is that giving you for this person to be texting? All day, every day, is it truly connection or is it a sense of false intimacy? I don't know. I love that when she said that.

• 41:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I've been saying that for the last two, like that's what that was the hill that got me. That's actually what started my career. I would come on and say texting is a false sense of intimacy. There's no tone.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 41:39Sabrina Zohar?

  You have no tonality when you read a text. I could tell you how I would read this, how I would perceive you to say it, or how I would say it. I haven't the slightest idea how many times I've read a message and gone, oh my God, they hate me.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  That's why I'm laughing. Yeah.

• 41:51Sabrina Zohar?

  And then they'll call me and everything's great. And I'm like, oh, or vice versa, where I'm like, everything's fine. And then they're mad at me.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Today, just the other day, and I was like, um, do you want me to go? Like, it seems like you don't want me. She's like, what are you talking about? Of course I did. I was like, well, that period felt very aggressive. She goes, okay, I put a period at the end of my sentence. I was like, yeah, it felt like a lot. It was really aggressive.

• 42:11Sabrina Zohar?

  And what I love about that is it also showcases how this shows up in friendships and work. It's not just romantic. I, that's why when people are like, no, no, I don't show up like this in my friendships.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, you do.

• 42:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Really? Oh, yeah. So when you text your friend and they didn't answer you and you're like, did I do something wrong?

• 42:24Speaker 01

  I always say, once a codependent, always a codependent. It goes in, it shows up in every relationship we have. It might show up a little bit differently in behavior.

• 42:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Right.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  But again, that root source is still the same. We're still hoping the other person's going to tell us that we're enough, we're worthy and we're chosen.

• 42:39Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. And like I said, that can be picked up on. I remember Ryan always saying, he's like, to all of the girls that are anxious. He's like, if you don't think we can tell, we can tell. Okay, let's get to speed dating, which is just lightning round questions. I know, I of course like had to make it something.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Oh my God, am I dating somebody? Let's do this.

• 42:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Sorry, John. Okay. So some of these, I feel like we probably answered this. How can I actually heal the not enough wound with someone safe and emotionally available? Maybe we didn't.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Okay, so from a lightning perspective, I would say that's a tricky question because there is an inherent like expectation that I need to have somebody outside of myself to heal that wound. And I would say, again, you actually don't. You have an opportunity in every relationship, kind of piggying on what you just said, like piggybacking on the thing that it's not just romantic relationships, whether it's work, whether it's family, whether it's friends, right? We really need to put more focus into creating solid, safe relationships across the board and stop focusing so much on the romantic relationship, right? I'm a big proponent of this de-centering romantic relationships. Hundred percent. And so you have an opportunity to put it into practice. You just have to open your eyes and look, but the work really, again, has

• 43:50Speaker 01

  to come back to you. The mirror is going to be there. It's just, are you going to look at it or not? Best tips for healing this wound while dating, or should I stay single until I do so? That's what I want. Yeah. This, the, that's such a thing of like, do I stay single? Do I not? I love your thoughts on that. So I don't think there's really a right answer to this. Again, I think it really has to do with the person. Something that Danae says a lot that I have said many times to clients is this idea of moving away from dating as a baseline, partnership as a baseline, and instead moving into partnered when it's justified. Love that. Right? So I'm not dating and trying to be in partnership because I need that to make me feel whole and okay and all the things we've

• 44:34Speaker 01

  talked about, right? I'm doing it from a place of this person that I met, there's a connection and it feels like we're, we jive and it feels great and there's something here to build. Cool. But it's not like I'm trying to force this thing to make myself feel okay. So I think it's more about questioning, why? Like, why am I dating? Yeah. Why am I trying to partner? Well, I'm lonely. Okay. Well, everybody feels lonely sometimes. How about if we sit with the feeling of loneliness for a little while and do some work around that? Right? I want to share my life with somebody. Okay, cool. Valid. But your life's going to go on whether or not you partner with somebody. So are you also pouring the same amount of energy and time into making sure that your life is vibrant and filled

• 45:16Speaker 01

  and, you know, sustained? All these beautiful things, even if you're not partnered, right? So again, it's like the questioning, like, well, what's the motivation for wanting to be partnered? So I don't think that you have to be single or be in a relationship to do this work. I think it's doable no matter what. But I also, at the end of the day, we are relational creatures, which is why I said bouncing it off of family, friends, coworkers, it doesn't matter. There's still going to be opportunities to look in the mirror.

• 45:40Sabrina Zohar?

  A hundred percent. Because to me, I always would say, if the only reason I would say, you know, hey, stay single, is it's like, if you're literally like, I can't get through one date without trauma dumping, or I have a panic attack after, it's like, okay, I think we need to baseline.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:54Sabrina Zohar?

  So that we're entering in with a little bit more confidence, because otherwise, this is going to be really shitty. But to your point, when I focused on pouring my life, like when my dog passed away, that was it for me. Like, he was my object permanence. He was my everything. I'm a single girl. It's a dog I had for 10 years. I moved from New York to him to California. And I remember when he passed, I was like, I'm not going to let you die in vain. And that's when I started my career. And when I met my partner, I was so very like, you're great. You're in addition to my life, though you're not instead of.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 46:21Sabrina Zohar?

  And I really was building this life of like, I have these new communities. And he found that really attractive, that I was like, hey, sorry, I can't make it tonight. I have something else to do. And it wasn't a game. It was genuine because

• 46:31Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 46:32Sabrina Zohar?

  You're, I'm good with, good without. I want to be good with you, but I also need to be good without.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  I always say it's cherry on the sundae, right? Sundays are delicious, even if you don't have a cherry on it. Cherry makes it better. It could add to it, but it's not the sundae. The sundae is the sundae regardless of the cherry. And I think that's how we need to start looking at romantic relationships a little bit more.

• 46:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Love that.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  What's the sundae?

• 46:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. Okay. I think this is a good one. How can you tell the difference between independent standards and self sabotage?

• 46:58Speaker 01

  I guess I would answer that by saying, again, like, questioning the motivation for the behavior, I think is really important. I'm a big proponent of this. I'm also, you know, I've been told many times, I've been called the cold water in the face therapist often by my groups, because as the New Yorker, I tend to be like, like, listen, own your shit.

• 47:19Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, what are we doing here?

• 47:20Speaker 01

  You're being manipulative. It's a control tactic. You know, people are like, oh, God. I'm like, well, I mean, listen, with love, I'm not saying you're doing it with malicious intent. It's coming from somewhere. Let's talk about it. But until we can really look at our shit and say like, oh, that was hella manipulative.

• 47:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Right.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  We're never going to really be able to get into that work. So I think, again, I think it's about questioning the Motivation. I think it's about looking at these tools that we were talking about in the beginning of the conversation around self-soothing and soothing anxiety. Right? Like, why am I doing this? Am I doing this because it makes me feel

• 47:55Speaker 01

  okay? And so this idea of hyperindependence, like, am I keeping this person away because it makes me feel and I need that in order to feel like in control and okay in my skin? Or am I doing it because, again, I have this idea of self-respect? Right? Where like, no, I actually know how I deserve to be treated, or I know what kind of relationship I want, like the porn thing. Hey, nothing wrong with you. You're not a bad person. We're just not aligned. That, to me, feels very different. It feels like one is coming from a solid sense of self, and one is coming from the opposite of a solid sense of self.

• 48:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. And to me, it's like what I hear is, you know, like, one of my friends, she always reframes, she's like, self-protection, not self-sabotage. Like, you're not doing this to hurt yourself on purpose. And so I'm like, okay, what am I trying to protect myself? Is there a core belief, a narrative of like, I can't trust anyone, men are trash, right? That versus for my highest good of, no, I deserve better than that. I don't want someone to talk to me like that. Those are my standards.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 48:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Any tips for accepting criticism in a constructive way without feeling like I'm not good enough or spiraling and getting defensive?

• 48:57Speaker 01

  This is a very common, very common wound. I, myself, still do, but not as much anymore, struggle with this. And it wasn't until I was in my current relationship, actually. I remember maybe six months in, we were, you know, he came to me with something like, you hurt my feelings, you said this thing, or whatever that thing was. And I spiraled into like, well, apparently I'm not good enough. Like, clearly, I'm a piece of shit, and I'm a horrible person, and blah, blah, blah. And there was something in the way in that moment where he was like, you know that, like, this is what we do, right? Like, we've got to be able to give feedback to each other. And it doesn't mean anything about you as a person, that I started going, oh, shit, I do that a lot, right? So I started talking about it in terms of like,

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Separating out this, this, "I've done something bad," which I'm air quoting for people who are listening, "I've done something bad with I am bad." They're very coupled beliefs and that starts in childhood. Usually that comes from a shame-based childhood, which, listen, even if your parent was an amazing parent, they were raised in a shame-based way, guarantee it, because that was, especially the generation before, that was how they parented.

• 50:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Especially faith-based.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  A lot of shame.

• 50:07Sabrina Zohar?

  Lot of shame.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  But you know, that the generations prior, I mean, they didn't, they didn't know any better. It was very shame-based. So shame-based parenting really does create this like sense of identity that's kind of based in shame, right? And so this, "I've done something bad" means I am bad. Once I started looking at those two things as like coupled beliefs that I needed to be able to separate out, it gave me not only like a cognitive understanding of what I was doing, but then I started implementing tools to stay in my body during the moments when I was getting feedback or criticism.

• 50:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Ooh, could you share a few?

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. So for me, and it's not the same for everybody, but I'll tell you what happens to me when I am in that state of "I've done something bad" means I am bad, I start to dissociate. So when there's conflict, I'm like, phew, I'm shut down. I'm gone. I shut down, right? I do tend to be more avoidant. My partner's the opposite. He talks, talks, talks, talks, talks, talks. And I'm like, doo doo doo, I've left my body, right?

• 51:02Sabrina Zohar?

  God, I feel so seen.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Our ways of, you know, relating to anxiety. I leave my body and he doesn't shut up, right? This is what we do.

• 51:08Sabrina Zohar?

  I get that.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  So when I started noticing, oh, and again, this is through a lot of just watching yourself, paying attention, noticing what happens. I say like, become the anthropologist of yourself. You're just noticing. You've got a little field journal. How interesting. I noticed that when this happens, this happens. This is what it feels like in my body. So after a lot of that, I started going, okay, shit, I leave my body. I totally dissociate. When there's conflict, I'm fucking out of here, right? So what's the kind of alternative to that? Well, I gotta stay in my fucking body, is what I gotta do, right? Right? Cause that's my way of, of not feeling. No, I'm in it to feel it, so I'm gonna fucking stay in my body. So what I started doing was little things, like when there's conflict now, and I still do this, I will pinch the underside of my legs with my nails.

• 51:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, smart. Okay.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Like just enough where it kind of hurts a little bit, right? But it keeps me in my body. Or I actually will repeat a mantra in my head, and I actually stole it from him. I don't know if this is my ADHD brain where I can do five things at once, but I can repeat a mantra and also listen to what you're saying at the same time. But he always says this thing, try to understand before trying to be understood.

• 52:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I love that. I love that.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  And so when somebody comes at me with what feels like criticism, right? What do we want to do? We want to defend ourselves. The ego cannot believe that it's bad. And so the ego will start to defend itself against being bad. No, in that moment, I will literally, in my head, I'm looking him in the eyes as he's talking and I'm like, in my head going, try to understand before being understood, try to understand before being understood. As I'm pinching the other side of my legs and he's like, yeah, me like, this bitch is crazy, right? But it's like these little strategies that I'm like, oh, this works for me. I'm present, I'm in my body, I'm not dissociating, I'm hearing him. It's not perfect every time, but start to learn and tweak and play with tools to keep you present.

• 52:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  To keep you in the moment, to keep you from doing whatever that thing is that you do, you know?

• 53:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, totally. And I love that for me, on the anxious side, right?

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:02Sabrina Zohar?

  The fucking other side of the coin, literally. For me, it was something, it's like same, same, but different.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:08Sabrina Zohar?

  Of I had to, my, I can think of 12 things at the same time and they'll be like, wait, what?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:14Sabrina Zohar?

  My, for me, what really helped was, one, I would repeat back and be like, so what I heard you say was this?

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:20Sabrina Zohar?

  Just so that I could, and then if he was like, no, no, that's not what I said. I'd be like, okay, like what I heard you say was like, I fucked up because there's something wrong with me?

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 53:26Sabrina Zohar?

  No, Sabrina, that's not what I said. And I'd be like, okay. And then I would just even sometimes take a second and be like, okay, what facts do I have to back that up, right? Like, did I do anything? No, I can't. Okay. Then for me, I'm like, sensations in my body of like, wow, okay. So like when my partner said, calm down to me, which I don't know what, what man ever thinks that's ever going to work for a woman. I wanted to lash out and scream.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Murder.

• 53:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Or fucking bludgeon him to death with whatever sharp object was in area. And instead I stopped and I was like, okay, what's happening to me? And I was like, my heart is pounding right now. And I was like, when do I remember this? I'm like, this is how dad is. This is how you feel when your dad says that. I was like, it's okay, he's not yet. And for me, I'm like, Sabrina, listen. And that's the irony of my dad would always go, stop, listen. And I was like, you fucking dickhead.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 54:10Sabrina Zohar?

  But he wasn't wrong in that one. Fucking thing because it's right. I would never, I would just defend and attack. And I have to, you know, I have to tell you that like, I didn't do anything. And instead now, one, I'll be like, that's okay if you misunderstand me, right? Like, I don't need to defend myself. But secondly, it's also validating to myself of like, well, I don't think I'm a bad person for this. So if you're telling me that you think I'm the worst person, do I genuinely believe that? No. And so I think it's just, like you said, everybody has a different thing that works for them. And sometimes, you know what really fucking works for me? I need five minutes. I was just gonna say, also ask for what you need.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  I need five minutes.

• 54:45Sabrina Zohar?

  When I get flooded, I'm like, you know what? I gotta tap out. Yeah, I need a minute. I'll come back to this. Cause also, to be fair, people have different processing times. And that's been really important for me to understand my relationship too. Like John, John is a very fast processor and I take a bit. I need to like, sit with myself. I need to journal. I need to work through it. I'm not really good on the fly when it comes to that stuff. Like when I'm flooded and I'm activated, fucking forget it.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Forget it.

• 55:11Sabrina Zohar?

  My processing is like gone, right? And so understanding that about myself, it's been nice to be like, I'm gonna have to get back to you on this.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:19Sabrina Zohar?

  You know?

• 55:19Speaker 01

  With a time, but even like, give a timeframe.

• 55:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Can you give me till tomorrow?

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:23Sabrina Zohar?

  Give me tomorrow. I need to just process.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Versus the like, I can't do this. And you're like.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  And you storm out. No, that's, that's the avoidant being the avoidant. But in my avoidance, I will say, like, I need an hour or two to kind of walk away. I will say, one of the most healing moments, not that I expect this from him, and that's probably why it was healing. We were in an argument and he actually, and like I said, he's a talker. When he gets, he's like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. He stopped himself and actually looked at me and was like, you look flooded right now. We need to take a break. And I was like, oh my God, you see me. It was like he came out of his own anxious bubble.

• 55:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  And like, looked across the room, was like, oh shit, I'm talking to air right now. Cause she's not here.

• 56:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  Right? Healthy for both of us. Like, nothing's happening right now. But I remember in that moment being like, oh shit, there's something here.

• 56:08Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  You're willing to look outside of yourself sometimes.

• 56:10Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  And see me and, and not like put me first, but be like, oh shit. Like, if this is a partnership, we've both gotta be online.

• 56:19Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'll be honest, when I hear that, when Ryan will be like, hey babe, regulate. Like that's our code word. It's a calm down. He'll just, he was like, what word feels okay to you? And I was like, you can say regulate, just so I know, like, I'm not seeing things clearly. When he says it, it instantly snaps out and I'm like, you're not here.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  I love code words.

• 56:34Sabrina Zohar?

  You're not here, right? And it's just, oop, okay. And that's when I'm like, I'm gonna go for a walk. I'm gonna listen to my meditation, or I'm gonna do a walking one, or I'm just gonna call my mom. I'm gonna do something to take me out of this bubble. And it's even sometimes what I'll suggest of like, oh, you want to send that text? I'm like, write it in your notepad. Go for a walk, go for 20 minutes, and then come back and tell me you still want to say that. If you do, you choose your own adventure. But maybe just putting a little space will allow us to stop going from feeling to fucked of just like, I'm not enough. See, but you, because then it just reaffirms those core beliefs of like, see, I knew I wasn't enough because you keep leaving me. And it's like, actually, they probably just left because you weren't willing to have a conversation with them and you're projecting onto them what it is.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Or you were talking at them for 20 minutes and they were flooded.

• 57:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Which is what happens with me. And it's like, oh, I'm the bad guy now because I'm flooded and I need to leave. Like, well, first of all, neither of us are bad guy. But I will say, I mean, maybe I'm just speaking from personal experience, but the avoidance do tend to get flack more, in my opinion.

• 57:27Sabrina Zohar?

  There's a villainization and it's

• 57:28Speaker 01

  So, so much villainization.

• 57:30Sabrina Zohar?

  It's a hill I'll die on because I love my partner, but he has same thing. I can see when he's flooded and I'll say, you know what, I'm gonna give you 20 minutes. Why don't we talk later?

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Or, hey, do you want to go talk to somebody? You want to call your friend, whatever you need. And it's like, sometimes it just, it helps because when, I know I would love to receive that, so I'm gonna give that to my partner.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Love that.

• 57:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, Vanessa, we could talk for fucking ever. But I'm just so excited. Thank you so much for coming on. Could you please share more about your book and you and where people can find you and all that fun shit?

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm on the grams, as we all are, at Vanessa Bennett. I, my book that came out last year with my partner is It's Not Me, It's You. Really good way to see these two different dynamics at play. We talk about this a lot. And yes, I am also married to a therapist. And yes, there is a lot of talking that happens. It's exhausting sometimes.

• 58:15Sabrina Zohar?

  It's one giant conversation.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Oh, God, for the avoidance. Oh, God.

• 58:19Sabrina Zohar?

  Well, we had Joan on exactly last year.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Oh, that's right. I forgot. It was exactly a year ago. That's right. So, we wrote a book together last year. I have a new book coming out this year called The Motherhood Myth. That'll be coming out actually in the summer of '25, which is gonna be a big, a big hefty read for all my, my people out there that are struggling with parenting under patriarchy.

• 58:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, God. Which is why I don't have a kid yet. So.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  I mean, listen, you and I could talk about it. We, yes, we started.

• 58:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, God. All right. Well, on the next episode, we will. Perfect.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Thanks, Vanessa.