NYU Professor: Do This for 2 Weeks to Get Your Focus, Motivation, & Life Back

This is one of the most eye-opening conversations Mel has had on the podcast. Today, Dr. Jonathan Haidt joins Mel to explain what constant quick dopamine is doing to attention, motivation, confidence, and mental health - and why the impact looks very different in boys than it does in girls. This conversation could not be more timely. Meta recently agreed to a landmark $17.1 billion settlement in a major case accusing the company of endangering children by designing its platforms to be addictive to kids and teens. And, today, you’re going to hear from one of the experts, Dr. Haidt, whose groundbreaking research helped shape that case. Like Mel, you may have heard about how deeply social media has impacted girls - intensifying anxiety, social comparison, sexualization, and self-harm. But Dr. Haidt, a social psychologist, professor at NYU Stern, and author of the #1 New York Times bestseller The Anxious Generation, has a new warning: boys are being affected in a very different way. Stop and think about what boys have sitting in their pockets all day long: a video game arcade, an endless stream of short-form videos, sports betting, and instant access to pornography. Dr. Haidt says to think of it like this: Imagine a boy or man you love sitting at the bottom of an ocean while thousands of fishing hooks drop down around him. Every hook is baited with something engineered to grab his attention. A new video. Another level. A shocking image. A notification. A chance to win. Over time, that constant stimulation can make ordinary life feel painfully slow. And this isn’t just about young people. If you have a son, brother, boyfriend, husband, or young man in your life who seems stuck, checked out, or like he’s lost his drive, you need to hear this conversation. Most importantly, Dr. Haid, gives you a way forward. He is here not only to educate you but also to share the specific changes you and the people you love can make - starting right now - to take back your attention, motivation, and focus. In this episode, you’ll learn: -Why young men can start withdrawing from school, friendships, dating, work, and real-world goals -What social media does to girls during puberty -Why shallow online connection is replacing deeper friendships -Why Dr. Haidt recommends no social media until 16 -The household rules he recommends for sleep, screens, and bedrooms -Why long-form stories are different from endless short-form content -How to help a struggling young man change without shaming him -Why small changes, social support, exercise, and real-world activities can help rebuild motivation -What research shows can happen after just one to two weeks of reducing social media use If you’re seeing someone you love lose motivation, withdraw, or struggle with social comparison or insecurity - or if you’re noticing any of this in yourself - this conversation could change everything. Anyone who follows the two-week protocol Dr. Haidt shares today can begin retraining their brain and improving their motivation and focus. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked the episode, check out this one next: The Science of Self Control: Find Motivation, Build Willpower, and Increase Your Focus Connect with Mel: Order Mel’s product, Pure Genius Protein Get Mel’s newsletter, packed with tools, coaching, and inspiration. Get Mel’s #1 bestselling book, The Let Them Theory Watch the episodes on YouTube Follow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast Instagram Mel's TikTok Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-free Disclaimer

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 0:09Mel Robbins?

  I am so glad that you are here with me right now because today, Dr. Jonathan Haidt is in our studio. He is a professor at NYU's Stern School of Business and the world's leading researcher on how social media and quick dopamine has devastated people's mental health. Because of Dr. Haidt's research, Meta has agreed to pay up to $17.1 billion in damages due to the claims that Facebook and Instagram have harmed the mental health of kids, teenagers, and adults everywhere. Dr. Haidt is here today to unpack his groundbreaking research

• 0:49Mel Robbins?

  that led to this landmark settlement, and he has a new warning about quick dopamine and social media and how it has impacted boys very differently than girls. Now, I'm a mom of three kids. We have two daughters and a 21-year-old son. And my husband and I knew about the research that connected social media, quick dopamine as a causal factor in the rise of anxiety, depression, and mental health issues in girls. But here's what we didn't know. We didn't know the devastating and very different impact that social media and quick dopamine has on a boy's brain. What you're about to learn will leave

• 1:32Mel Robbins?

  your jaw on the floor. And it will also connect the dots because once you learn it, it makes so much sense. Your son, your grandson, your brother, your nephew, your boyfriend, your spouse, they're not lazy. It's the short-form content, the gambling, the video games, the porn. All this quick dopamine is the cause of the boys and men in your life losing focus, confidence, motivation, and the drive to put themselves out there, to believe in themselves, to build the life that makes them happy. So if you're seeing a lack of motivation in someone you love, if you're watching him withdraw, this conversation could change

• 2:13Mel Robbins?

  everything. And the timing of you listening to this could not be more important. See, Dr. Haidt and I sat down just a couple of weeks ago before Meta settled this case, before Meta agreed to pay $17.1 billion to settle these three-year-long lawsuits. Dr. Haidt is here today to educate you, not just about the harm, but to share very good news based on the research. There are specific changes you can make today that help you get your attention, motivation, your focus back. So if you or the people that you love stick with the simple plan that Dr. Haidt's going to outline in this episode, your brain, your motivation, your whole life comes back.

• 3:03Mel Robbins?

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• 3:44Mel Robbins?

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• 4:25Mel Robbins?

  matters. Most companies talk, talk, talk about putting customers first. Amica really does it. You feel it in the way they listen, the way they follow through, the way they treat you. As a customer-owned company, Amica puts your needs first. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

• 4:47Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am thrilled that you are here with me today. It's always an honor to be together. It's always an honor to spend time with you. But today in particular, wow, this is one heck of a conversation. If you're new, if somebody sent this to you, I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. The episode today is incredible because you and I are sitting down with Dr. Jonathan Haidt, one of the most influential social psychologists of our time. He's one of the leading voices in the world on how social media and quick dopamine is changing childhood, mental health. It's changing everything. In fact, you may

• 5:29Mel Robbins?

  have heard of his landmark New York Times bestseller, The Anxious Generation. And I'm just going to set up the conversation by saying, you're listening to this at an extraordinary moment. Over the last three years, there's been a landmark, multi-state, youth mental health lawsuit against Meta. And Dr. Haidt's research and years of warnings were a key part of the expert testimony and the record in this lawsuit. Now, Dr. Haidt and I sat down and recorded this conversation before that settlement was even announced. But in the conversation, Dr. Haidt and I talk about these lawsuits and the internal Meta documents

• 6:10Mel Robbins?

  that came out through discovery, and what they reveal about the addictive nature of these platforms, and the fact that the platforms ignored these warnings. Now, let me tell you about Dr. Haidt. He earned his PhD in social psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. He spent 16 years teaching at the University of Virginia, where he won four teaching awards. And today, he is a professor at NYU's Stern School of Business. He's the author of four New York Times bestsellers. And I think you can tell by the passion in my voice that I know you're going to find this conversation to be one-part wake-up call, one-part revelatory.

• 6:51Mel Robbins?

  But you're also going to leave empowered, knowing that there's something simple that you and your family can do, and it's going to bring your life back. I cannot wait for you to experience this. So please help me welcome Dr. Jonathan Haidt to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Mel Robbins, it is great to be here. And of course, one always says that. But the welcome that your team gave me, I have never seen anything like it. So it's a real pleasure to be here.

• 7:15Mel Robbins?

  Well, we are very, very excited that you made the time to come to Boston. I have had you on a list of people I want to sit down with for well over a year. And I want to start out by talking about what could change about my life, or about my kids' lives, or the lives of some of the youngsters that I care about, if I really take to heart everything that you're about to teach us and share with us about this shocking research, and I apply it to my life.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  So what we'll be talking about here is how to regain your attention, how to improve your habits, especially your digital habits. And if you do this, then I can offer you, the listener, the viewer, the same thing that I offer my students at New York University. I teach a course called Flourishing. And I say, if you stay with the program, if you make these changes to your habits, by the end of the course, you will become smarter, stronger emotionally, and more sociable. And if you become smarter, stronger, and more sociable, then you will, on average, be more successful in love broadly construed, and in work. And love and work is the magic formula in psychology for happiness and flourishing, going all the way back to Sigmund Freud. So if you are more successful in love and

• 8:29Speaker 01

  in work, then I guarantee you, you will be happy.

• 8:32Mel Robbins?

  I feel like this is one of these topics that makes everybody anxious. The title of your blockbuster bestseller and all this research, The Anxious Generation, is the right title because I know we have a sense that there is something deeply wrong.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 8:49Mel Robbins?

  And that we are losing parts of ourselves. We are losing parts of our connection to other people. We've all had that experience of just walking down the street and nobody's talking to anybody. Everybody's staring at their phones. You see families sitting out at a restaurant. Everybody's on a device. And my heart quietly breaks, and I also feel this deep sense of panic. And so are there things that we're going to learn today that may give us a sense of control back, or like exactly what to do? Because it almost feels like this is one of those topics that the genie's already out of the bottle and we're all screwed.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So something big changed between 2010 and 2015. I've called it the great rewiring of childhood. And you and I are going to talk about that. What happened when everybody switched over from having flip phones or basic phones? You know, the millennials went through puberty with the Motorola Razr, to by 2015, everyone has a smartphone. We've got to get to the point where we can return our phones to being tools that we use when we want to do something. You take it out, the smartphone used to be a Swiss Army knife. Even had flashlight and maps. Like, it was amazing. We've got to get back to where it's a tool that you use when you want something, as opposed to a thing that's dominating, controlling your life, and altering your consciousness, and telling you what you need to do now and when. And it takes some work. I'm not going to say it's easy, but it's actually pretty

• 10:09Speaker 01

  simple. Like, the things you need to do aren't complicated. With a little practice, you really can regain control of your attention, and then you'll regain control of your life.

• 10:18Mel Robbins?

  I would love to start with just really digging into your research in this blockbuster book, The Anxious Generation. What effect does living a life where you're constantly connected have on you as a human being?

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the most important component of happiness, research in positive psychology has shown this for decades. The most important thing is relationships and relatedness. We humans are ultra-social creatures. We have intense social needs. We need to have close relationships, supportive relationships in our family. And then as kids, especially as they reach adolescence, The plan is they kind of move out. They stop being under your tutelage, under your protection, and they need to begin creating their own life. And that means that they need to make it in the world of prestige of their peers. So that's always been the case. And that's why I don't what was like for you. I hated seventh grade. Middle school was the worst. Like, I generally liked school, but middle school was horrible.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  And, you know, suddenly you realize like, wait, how I look, you know, suddenly it suddenly matters so much. So middle school is a very, very difficult time. It always is. You can't remove that. But if now suddenly everyone is online and everyone is connected and the companies tell us, oh, it's how you make connections. It helps kids, you know, get together. But what kids need is a few close friends. And, and early on, what we were told was, oh, this is, you know, let them, you know, have an Instagram page. They'll have all these friends, have all these followers. But it turns out that that doesn't bring you closer to your friends. It replaces them. Because the average American teen now spends five hours a day on social media, mostly watching short videos. They're not even liking each other's posts. It's mostly short videos.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  These five hours a day pushes out everything else. Time with friends, sleep, sunshine, reading books. If you have kids, imagine taking five hours out of their day and saying, you have to go do something for five hours a day. Now get everything else done. Everything else is going to suffer. And that's what these devices did. When the kids got on social media, it severely damaged their relationships because it gave them quantity at the expense of quality. They now had hundreds of friends that they never saw.

• 12:30Mel Robbins?

  Well, I also think it's stunning that the five hours is spent watching short form. It's not even five hours spent chatting with friends or talking to friends or doing something with friends.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  That's right. So this is something very important for people to understand. Social media used to be social. Social media used to actually be called social networking systems. That was what we called them around 2006 to 10. Social networking systems. Facebook was a social networking system. You put up your page, you've got your information, maybe your photographs, and you can go check out your friend's page and they can check out yours. That's perfectly healthy. There's no problem with that.

• 13:03Mel Robbins?

  And it was also very static.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:06Mel Robbins?

  It was sort of like looking at a flyer.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. It was not addictive. There was no dopamine issue. It was, it connected people and it let you catch up with your friends very quickly.

• 13:15Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  So a lot of things change. So the iPhone comes out in 2007.

• 13:19Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  But very few kids have one. And there's no App Store, no push notifications. 2008, you begin to get the App Store and push notifications. 2009, you get the share button, the retweet button. You get news feed in this period also. So instead of going to check out your friend's page, now suddenly it's your news feed. And it's not just updates from your friends. It's news updates. It's commentary. It's culture war stuff. It's isn't he stupid? It's can you believe those Democrats, those Republicans? So now you're getting push notifications about things that aren't your friends. And this begins to sort of ramp up, the overstimulation, the anxiety. But you can only do Facebook when you sit down at your computer. And if you're a teen, you may have to sit down at your parents' computer.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  So nobody is on for five hours a day. So that's where we are in 2008, nine, 10. 2010, the iPhone, I think the five, first iPhone with a front-facing camera. That's also that your Instagram comes out. But it's a photography site teens aren't on it. By 2012, now lots of teens are getting an iPhone, whatever, six, whatever it was by then, an iPhone with a front-facing camera and an Instagram account because Facebook buys Instagram in 2012. And that's when all the girls rush onto Instagram. And so 2012 is the pivotal year for girls especially. For boys, the curve's a little more curvilinear. They're not, there's not such a sharp elbow for boys at 2012. For girls, it's very sharp 2012. So imagine being a 12 or 13-year-old girl in 2010 versus 2015.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  You're always concerned about your status, your reputation, your looks with the small group that you're talking to. And now suddenly by 2015, everyone is talking about your looks. Everyone is commenting on the dress you wore. Everyone's commenting on your skin, your breasts, your hair, everything. This is horrible for girls. This is a horrible way to put girls through puberty. So that's why we see girls suffering immediately. And that was what my early research was on. It was really clear, social media, especially Instagram, is harmful for girls, especially anxiety, depression. And for older Gen Z, which is those born 1996, '07, '08, '09, I think that's the main story. And it looks like the boys aren't doing so bad. Okay. But now let's trace it forward a bit more because everything changes. By 2015, now the video games are moving onto the phone.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  And now boys get their quick dopamine hits. They begin to get addicted to their phones for video games. Now that everyone has high-speed internet, now porn, boys can watch porn anywhere, anytime. And so a lot more boys are getting addicted to porn, which makes it much harder for them to ever talk to a girl or flirt with a girl or seduce a girl or get a girlfriend. For boys, the thing to keep your eye on isn't necessarily social media. It's quick dopamine. Boys now have a slot machine, a porn theater, a video game parlor. They have all of this stuff in their pocket with them all the time. And you're a boy, it's going to be just lots and lots of stimulation, which is going to make it very hard for you to ever pay attention. Boys especially lose executive function, the ability to make a plan and follow it. For girls, it's constant social comparison.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  It's constant stuff about clothing, looks, makeup, fault, you know, is it, get ready with me videos that the girls watch. So it is having a different effect on boys and girls, but they end up in the same pit of despair.

• 16:26Mel Robbins?

  And why is it important to understand that it's a slot machine? So could you explain to the person listening? So I think we know, we know from a common sense standpoint that slot machines are not a good thing. They're designed to keep you pulling the lever. If you're an adult, you've probably walked through a casino at some point.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've seen the zombies.

• 16:45Mel Robbins?

  You see people zoned out pulling the slot machine.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 16:47Mel Robbins?

  But can you explain to the person who's listening, who's never heard this explained to them, why it's important to understand that it's the same way a slot machine is designed?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  That's right. So the original internet was wide open. It was very difficult to make money on it. People put things up. But once you get push notifications, the App Store, all that stuff, a lot of companies develop what's called an advertising-based business model. They make their money from showing you ads. And a company like Facebook was the first to really pioneer this. If they make money from showing you ads, then they'll make more money if they show you more ads. They have to keep you on longer and keep you more intense. And so the business incentive for them was to figure out how to keep everyone on longer. And they told their engineers that they said, you know, your bonus will depend in part on you raising, increasing the engagement numbers, which means time spent on the device.

• 17:42Mel Robbins?

  And you know this.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:43Mel Robbins?

  Because you're involved with class action lawsuits now. And so we have the evidence.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 17:48Mel Robbins?

  That these are designed in a way to keep you and your kids on them longer.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  That's right. So first, so I know people who worked at Facebook and they told me about the bonus structure. But because so many parents are suing Meta, in the course of the lawsuits, we have a process of discovery. The attorneys can request documents. Also, there are whistleblowers like Francis Haugen, who brought out thousands of screenshots of internal documents. And so here, I'll just read a couple. So here's a discussion among two researchers at Instagram. One of them has a PhD in neuroscience. And he says, it seems clear from what's presented here in this internal report that some of our users are addicted to our products. And I worry that driving sessions incentivizes us to make our product more addictive without providing much more value. How to keep someone returning over and over to the same behavior each day?

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Intermittent rewards are most effective. Think slot machines.

• 18:41Mel Robbins?

  Now, I want to just make sure that as you're listening or watching, you understand what that means for you and me. One of the reasons why you catch yourself, and it's not your fault, sitting on your phone for two or three hours when you didn't mean to. You just went to go get a text. Next thing you know, you're scrolling.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 18:56Mel Robbins?

  Is that if you notice as you scroll, every once in a while, you get a funny meme.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 19:02Mel Robbins?

  But then you scroll through a bunch of boring stuff and then you get another funny one. And then you scroll and you start to think, oh, I should get off this thing. And then you see a funny one.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 19:11Mel Robbins?

  But you don't know how often. And then you go to put your phone away. And then what ends up happening, at least for me, I notice, is that I feel this lingering pull that maybe there's something good that is on that thing.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 19:25Mel Robbins?

  And so I go to pick it up again. And because I don't know, there's this interesting thing that happens when you start to realize that this is by design.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 19:34Mel Robbins?

  That it's the fact that you don't know if there's a funny thing coming yet. You don't know if you're going to like the next thing that keeps you on it.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  That's right. That's exactly right.

• 19:44Mel Robbins?

  At the end of the day, the device is neutral.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 19:48Mel Robbins?

  It's the software that's on the device and the apps in particular, and the social media platforms and the shopping-ification of social media that has led to all of this addictive behavior.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  So it's going to devastate the deep connections. They're not going to have the deep connections. They're going to have lots of shallow connections. That's really bad, especially for girls. That's one.

• 20:10Mel Robbins?

  Why is it really bad for girls to have shallow connections?

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Boys are developing friendships. As my friend Richard Reeves says, he runs the American Institute for Boys and Men. He says, girls like to connect face to face. Boys like to connect shoulder to shoulder, like we're doing something together. We're hiking, we're building something, we're whatever. There's also an enormous difference between connecting and performing. And there are times when kids need to learn how to boast, how to impress others. But it shouldn't be most of the time and it shouldn't be when they're with their friends. And as soon as girls get social media and now everything's about their profile and who liked them and why did he like her post, but he didn't like my post? And all the stuff that girls do a lot more than boys about like the going further on why they thought that or did that.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  It traps them into just an endless loop of that kind of thinking as opposed to just connecting and having fun and sharing secrets with a friend. Then there's the sexualization. If you just think about what healthy development is for a girl, the British have a phrase, don't put your daughter on the stage, Mr. Worthington. It's from like an old play or something. But, you know, you don't want to raise a girl on a stage. That would be devastating to her because what matters is her looks. The world judges her for her looks and that's what she cares about. Social media is just devastating for all the things girls need to do to turn into competent, happy women. So that's why my group says, we say very clearly in the book, no social media till 16.

• 21:32Mel Robbins?

  Why is the internet a uniquely dangerous place for a young person to be wandering around unprotected?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  So it's kind of insane to put children with anonymous adults. I mean, imagine if there was some place where you could just drop your kids off and they're going to interact with all kinds of men who are wearing masks and we never know who they are. That's completely insane, but that's what happens on a lot of platforms, even Roblox. You know, Roblox is a virtual space where people wander around, they interact with other people. Some of them are men who want sex. So, once you get into any of these platforms that allow communication among strangers, this is a sick thing to do to children, but it's common. We've just accepted it's just common. And where did all the sexual predators go? If you hang out at a park, people report you'll get arrested. So they all went, they all moved to Instagram and a few other platforms.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  So, research done by Arturo Bejar was a Facebook employee, he was working for Instagram. And his daughter, his 15-year-old daughter, created an Instagram page because the two of them enjoyed restoring classic cars. And she kept getting hit on by men showing creepy things. 15-year-old girl, photographs of her fixing cars, like, she has to go through this? And so Arturo says, I wonder how common this is. And he's able to do research and he finds that 15% of, I think it was 14 to 16-year-old teens, and here, boys and girls, we're getting it equally. He said 15% of them get an inappropriate approach from a stranger every week.

• 22:58Mel Robbins?

  Every week?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Every week. If you just look in the past week, the question he asked was-

• 23:02Mel Robbins?

  And what year was this?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  This was around 2018, 2017.

• 23:05Mel Robbins?

  So this was eight years ago?

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:07Mel Robbins?

  It was 15%?

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yes. His questions were, in the past week, has this happened to you? And one of them was, an inappropriate approach from a stranger has made you feel uncomfortable, something like that. And so, it is just ubiquitous. Of course, look, most men are very decent and would not harm a child, but if it's 5% or 2%, whatever it is, some percent, these platforms give them free rein. And I should clarify, once your daughter gets on Instagram or TikTok, it's not just strange men who are going to be doing stuff, it's the boys in her class also. There's a book called American Girls, it's horrifying, I forget the author, but she goes through how boys use nude pics of their female classmates as currency. And the eighth-grade boys, if they can get a pic of an eighth-grade girl's breasts, they can then trade that to a high school boy who will get them beer.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  I mean, things like that, just that girls' bodies become currency and the degradation and the humiliation. So there's a degree of sex and degradation to life online, where children are interacting with strangers and there's no rules and no one's accountable. So that's why my group says, we say very clearly in the book, no social media till 16.

• 24:10Mel Robbins?

  I find it really fascinating that you have two divergent things happening when it comes to parenting and modern society. On the other side of the coin, in real life, we've become so psycho-overprotective that we're overprotecting our kids from real life-

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 24:35Mel Robbins?

  -experiences. I want to read to you from page 90. "American parents have lost so much trust in their fellow citizens and their own children that many now endorse the near-total elimination of freedom from childhood." Now, this is a report that's over 10 years old and it's still stunning.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  So it's worse now, yeah.

• 24:54Mel Robbins?

  And it's way worse. And this reports from Pew Research Center. "Parents on average say children should be at least 10 in order to play unsupervised in their own front yard." This was 10 years ago. People were saying, I don't want my kids playing alone in my own front yard, even if I'm in the kitchen.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 25:15Mel Robbins?

  Holy cow. They say that kids should be 12 before they're allowed to stay alone in their own home, unsupervised for one hour. They should be 14, which is basically high school, before being allowed to go unsupervised to a public park.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. I can summarize the whole book by saying, we have overprotected our children in the real world, where they need a huge amount of experience unsupervised, and we have underprotected them online, where there's a huge amount of threats and not a lot of benefit. We've denied kids the freedom to become tougher, stronger, more independent. We put them on computers instead because we thought, well, that's safe. They're on computers, maybe they'll be like Steve Jobs, maybe they'll, you know, start a company. Good, he's on a computer. And we didn't understand, as the internet changed, we didn't understand that putting our kids on the internet exposes them to all kinds of terrible people and companies that want to addict them. While most people are focusing on the phones, the larger message that I want to bring to everyone is, keep your eye on childhood. Don't focus on the phones.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Keep your eye on childhood. What kind of childhood do you want for your child? Do you want a childhood that's going to prepare them for adulthood, that's going to give you a confident young person able to go off and travel, go get a job, go to college? Or do you want someone who's going to just spend their life keeping up with the memes on five different platforms?

• 26:39Mel Robbins?

  Dr. Height, I am hanging on every word. I'm so grateful that you're here. I don't want to take a pause, I want to keep going, but I want to give our sponsors a chance to shine. And I also want to give you a chance to share this episode with the people in your life that you love. And don't go anywhere. We have so much more to dig into with Dr. Jonathan Height when we return, so stay with me.

• 27:04Mel Robbins?

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• 27:48Mel Robbins?

  that lets you do it your way, right? Visit schwab.com to learn more. That's S-C-H-W-A-B dot com. What's your favorite kind of vacation? Do you like to do physical stuff and see a bunch of sights, or do you just, oh my God, just let me lounge by a pool and don't talk to me? Scottsdale, Arizona, will let you do it all. And fall is one of the most beautiful times to visit Scottsdale, with warm days, cool desert evenings and endless sunshine. Here are just some of the things you can do in Scottsdale. Visit legendary Old Town Scottsdale with over 100 restaurants, dozens of art galleries and boutique shopping. Stay at award-winning luxury resorts designed for relaxation.

• 28:33Mel Robbins?

  Spend a day at one of Scottsdale's world-class spas. Eat at an award-winning restaurant with unmatched sunsets. Play championship golf courses surrounded by stunning Sonoran desert landscapes. And top it all off with beautiful desert scenery that instantly helps you disconnect. We spend so much time taking care of everyone else, Scottsdale is where you can finally take care of yourself. Visit unwindinsscottsdale.com to plan your trip this fall. Let me tell you about Verizon's brand-new Simplicity Plan. It's one plan, one price, $30 a line per month, even for a single line, with their best 5G network for all. That's it. That's the plan. And when it comes to your phone, you can do what works for you.

• 29:18Mel Robbins?

  Already love your phone? Great, keep it. Or it's easy to buy a new one. Or you could upgrade to the newest phone every year for a monthly charge. So let's get this straight. One plan, one price. $30 a line per month, plus your phone and your way. And their best 5G network? I guess the Simplicity Plan is just that, super simple. Maybe that's why they named it that. One plan, one price, and the best network for everyone. Switch to Verizon today. For new customers, $30 a line includes auto pay and switch discount. Additional taxes, fees and terms apply. Unlimited data is restricted to on-device smartphone usage.

• 30:02Mel Robbins?

  Domestic data roaming at 2G speeds. The Mel Robbins Podcast is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance, our exclusive insurance partner. You know when someone finishes your sentence because they already understood what you needed? That's what working with Amica feels like. They don't guess. They don't assume. They take the time to understand what you're trying to protect and why it matters. Most companies talk, talk, talk about putting customers first. Amica really does it. You feel it in the way they listen, the way they follow through, the way they treat you. As a customer-owned company, Amica puts your needs first. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

• 30:46Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are here with social psychologist Dr. Jonathan Haidt, and we're learning about why everyone feels anxious right now. So, Dr. Haidt, let's talk about boys, because we've talked specifically about the reasons why social media is psychologically devastating for girls, especially ages 10 through 14, which is why your recommendation is no social media until 16. What is the impact on boys when you give them a smartphone too soon, or they have access to social media too soon?

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Right. So for boys, don't keep your eye on social media. For boys, keep your eye on anything that's like a stimulus-response-reward thing. So it starts with video games. And I remember, my son, we had simple games on the iPhone, and I remember seeing addictions form, where he was, he would get very irritated. You know, if you took it away, he'd scream, he had to have it. If, when you take something away, the kid is very upset, that's a definite sign of dopamine adaptation. That is, their brain has gotten accustomed to a lot of quick dopamines, that when you take it away, now their brain is in a deficit state. It takes a couple of weeks, you know, a couple of weeks to sort of get over that, for the brain to restore itself.

• 32:02Mel Robbins?

  Okay, so just hover here for a second. So for boys, what you're teaching us so far is it's less about all of the stuff on social media. The bigger picture is, when it comes to boys and brain development, the addictive nature of social media and short-form content and all this stuff makes them super addicted to it. And then, when you go to try to limit it, now you're going to get the outbursts. Now you're going to get the issues. And that's a sign that you got a problem.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  That's right. Maybe a metaphor that would be helpful here is imagine a thousand, it's kind of a weird metaphor, let's try it. Imagine a thousand fishermen with big hooks, dropping their hooks down, and your boy is sitting there on the ocean floor, and all of these hooks are baited with the most amazing possible things, and they're all trying to get your boy to bite. And this is his entire childhood. It starts with the video games, and those are amazing, and there's so many coming at him on every possible surface. And it's the short videos, and the memes. And then, when he gets a little older, it's the porn, and then it's the sports betting. My god, states have legalized sports betting, and kids are able to get around the age limits. But there's gambling in almost everything

• 33:15Speaker 01

  now. So for boys, it's open season on their dopamine system. Open season, companies are sending up fishing fleets to try to suck out all the dopamine. That's what you need to keep your eye on for boys.

• 33:27Mel Robbins?

  And what does it do psychologically to your son?

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Dopamine is the hormone of motivation, and what you want is slow dopamine. What you want, especially for boys, boys' outcomes are more variable than girls. Boys can be incredibly successful, and they're overrepresented at that, and also amongst society's losers, they're way overrepresented in that. So, boys, the outcome of their life is much less certain than it is for girls. If boys are able to apply themselves and work towards a long-term goal, they can be incredibly effective and successful in the world, and they often end up with a certain kind of ambition that you find more in boys than girls. But boys are also so easily lured into becoming lazy bums that never move out of the house.

• 34:08Mel Robbins?

  So if you're frustrated because your son is not launching, or he's in the basement, or he's dropped out of college, or he's lost motivation, or never sees his friends, there is a direct link?

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yes, a direct link. Because, so think about it this way. We all have to learn how to do hard things. Children have to do hard things over and over again. If you present a child with a path, either you can do this really hard thing to get a candy bar, or you can just have the candy bar. Which do you want? I'll take the candy bar. So it used to be that you had to work to get things. So, for example, the biggest project for me when I was in middle and high school was getting a girlfriend. You know, I'm not saying 6th grade, but you know, by 9th grade, it was painful to not have a, like, you know, because some, some boys had a girlfriend. So that was sort of a long-term project. And, you know, I would try to flirt a little bit, and, and, you know, I didn't know what I was doing, but that's how you learn, is by trying and failing, trying and failing.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  And then, when you finally succeed, it's amazing. And yes, it's dopamine, but it's also a deep feeling of satisfaction. And so, if boys have that over and over again, they try, they struggle for something, they get it, they get the pleasure of success, that's how you make a man. Whereas, if you always say, "You have a choice. You can work hard, or I'll just give you the reward," what you're going to end up with is a boy who's not really capable of doing much in the world. We talked about mental health and mental illness a lot here, but what I've discovered since the book came out is that that's actually not the biggest damage that this stuff has done to our kids. The biggest damage is the destruction of the human ability to pay attention, to focus, and to pursue goals. That is, the destruction of what we call executive function, the ability to formulate plans, orchestrate

• 35:45Speaker 01

  what you need to do, keep it in mind, and pursue it. While, all the while, your phone is saying, "Come look at memes, come look at videos." So if a boy has the ability to delay gratification, to keep his eye on the prize, he's going to be effective in this world. Women don't want a man who's nothing. They don't want a man who has no achievements. They don't want a man who's going nowhere. So, a lot of our boys are basically consigned to unmarried ability, because they've been damaged by this, and they don't have the ability to really pursue long-term goals.

• 36:16Mel Robbins?

  I have never heard anybody explain it this way. I've heard lots of amazing researchers and experts talk about the crisis in men and in boys, and oftentimes, especially as a woman, and I have a husband who is in that field. He leads men's retreats, he's a death doula, he is about to get, finishes his degree in spiritual psychology, deeply concerned about it. But it often feels like it's always been pitted as it's the rise of women and the empowerment of women, and it's, and what I'm hearing is so compelling. And so, I want to make sure that I'm getting this right, Dr. Haidt. And I want to make sure, as you're

• 36:59Mel Robbins?

  listening, that you're gaining this key and critical insight into what's actually happening, especially for boys and young men. When it comes to girls, and the ways that social media has entered a central role in their life, it has replaced connection, it has made them perform, it has exposed them to hypersexuality, we see a direct causal link in a spike in anxiety, a spike in mental health disorders, self-harm, suicidal ideation, and eating disorders.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:40Mel Robbins?

  With boys, the impact of all of the short-form content, and the dopamine, and the addictive nature-

• 37:51Speaker 01

  The gambling, the porn, all of it.

• 37:52Mel Robbins?

  The gambling, the porn, all of it, that your boys, your brother, your sons, your spouse, your boyfriend have all been exposed to, it has a direct and causal link to destroying motivation-

• 38:07Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 38:08Mel Robbins?

  -to imploding executive function, and to creating sort of, almost like a depressive state-

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:15Mel Robbins?

  -of just not feeling engaged or excited by anything.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. That's right. That's perfect. Yeah, that's exactly the way that I would put it.

• 38:24Mel Robbins?

  That's terrifying.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  It is terrifying. And there's a big social class divide here. That is, as Richard Reeves has shown, he wrote the book of Boys and Men, if we look at wealthy families, educated, you know, college-educated, married couples, the girls are doing a little better than the boys in those families.

• 38:43Mel Robbins?

  They're anxious as hell, but they're-

• 38:45Speaker 01

  That's right. They're more anxious, but the boys and the girls are both finishing high school, and they're generally going to college. But as we go down in social class, it's the boys that are really, really dropping off. So that, in the bottom half, economically, we see a huge gap between boys and girls. And this is terrible for so many reasons. One of which, as I mentioned, is that girls generally don't want to marry down, they want to marry up, and the supply of young men who are worth marrying keeps shrinking and shrinking, because so many of them are lured off the path of development into just quick, easy dopamine addictions.

• 39:19Mel Robbins?

  What do you do if you're listening to this, and your heart is sinking, and you see this in your brother, or you see this in your boyfriend?

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:30Mel Robbins?

  And as you're learning about this, you also are going to go home and see them sitting on the couch scrolling through short form as they've got the game on-

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:38Mel Robbins?

  -and they're placing a bet. What do we do? Like, what's the first thing to do if you're concerned about a man who had this impact him, or you are concerned about a young adult or a boy that you're starting to see they don't want to do sports, they're kind of pulling out, they spend a lot of time in their room?

• 39:58Speaker 01

  No moral judgment, that's, you know, to understand what's, what's happening here. And of course, it's very hard to even change yourself. It's very hard for a person to make New Year's resolutions, just say, "I'm going to have better habits." It's even harder to change another person. So if it's just you trying to persuade this person to change, that is really, really hard. But there's a couple of things that can really help you.

• 40:17Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  One is to have that person agree and be on your side. And so, if you talk to them and see, do they see it as a problem or not? And most young people, they're very clear-eyed about it.

• 40:28Mel Robbins?

  What do you hear from young people? What do you hear from the boys and from the young men, that when they hear that it's not their fault? Because I think that's a very empowering thing-

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:36Mel Robbins?

  -to hear. That the lack of motivation, the lack of gusto, the lack of passion and direction, you know, it's not your fault, you're not a loser, you were preyed upon.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 40:45Mel Robbins?

  So what do you hear, Dr. Haidt, when you're in front of boys, and when you're in front of these audiences about what boys and young men are saying, when the realization is, "Holy cow, this rotted my drive and executive function. What are they saying?"

• 41:01Speaker 01

  I can tell you from the young men in my course at NYU, is that in every class, there's a couple that are gaming addicts especially, that spend huge amounts of time on all of this stuff. One young man, he was spending 10 hours a day on video games and social media. 10 hours a day as a college student. You know, he goes to classes, and he's on, like, that's it, that's all he does. You know, you've come to New York City to go to college, and all you do is sit on your bed and, you know, scroll or play video games. And when in the course, when they, we get their digital habits right, start by moving it off your phone, onto a computer, and then possibly just deleting entirely, their lives open up. And I remember one young man, he got back five hours a day from electronic

• 41:43Speaker 01

  devices. He started working out, which he didn't do before. He had time to go out with friends, which he didn't do before. And in the course of going out with friends, he got up the guts to actually approach a girl in life, not on an app, and flirt with her, and became his long-term girlfriend. And so his life completely turned around. This is a 19-year-old young man. Life completely turned around because he regained control of his attention, which also gives you back control of your time, which gives you a sense of agency, because you're not always like, ah, I'm so rushed, I've got to do this, and this, and this, and scroll through this, and this, and this. So I've seen many young men, just their lives blossom.

• 42:20Mel Robbins?

  This makes so much sense, Dr. Height, now that you've laid this all out. And I have so many more things I want to ask you, but I have to hit the pause button, so we can give our sponsors a chance to share a few words. And I want to give you a chance. Now, I'm going to ask you, share this episode. Let's be part of the positive wave of change. There is one person in your life who is constantly on their phone. The person that's spending five hours a day just looking at short form. The friend who can't focus. The parent who feels like they're losing their kids. I think we all need this information, and we need the resources and strategies to put ourselves back at the center of our lives. Send them

• 43:04Mel Robbins?

  this episode. I promise you, they're going to thank you for this. And don't go anywhere, because we have so much more to learn from Dr. Jonathan Height when we return. And I promise you, you're going to thank yourself for being here when we do. Stay with me.

• 43:22Mel Robbins?

  When it comes to investing, or really anything, don't you think it's important to choose a company that you can trust? One where you have the freedom to do things your way with confidence? Because some days, you might want a little more control and flexibility. And other times, you may need a specialist in your corner to help out. Well, with Schwab, you get all that and more, all in one place. Schwab has everything from self-directed investing, when you're thinking, hey, I got this, all the way to full-service wealth management, when you're like, you know what, I'm going to need to get some help. That includes planning for big goals, too, like college, buying a house, retirement planning, and more. Because if you're going to do this whole money thing, you might as well choose

• 44:03Mel Robbins?

  a firm that lets you do it your way, right? Visit schwab.com to learn more. That's S-C-H-W-A-B dot com. Let me tell you about Verizon's brand-new Simplicity Plan. It's one plan, one price, $30 a line per month, even for a single line, with their best 5G network for all. That's it. That's the plan. And when it comes to your phone, you can do what works for you. Already love your phone? Great, keep it. Or it's easy to buy a new one. Or you could upgrade to the newest phone every year for a monthly charge. So let's get this straight.

• 44:40Mel Robbins?

  One plan, one price, $30 a line per month, plus your phone and your way. And their best 5G network? I guess the Simplicity Plan is just that, super simple. Maybe that's why they named it that. One plan, one price, and the best network for everyone. Switch to Verizon today. For new customers, $30 a line includes auto pay and switch discount. Additional taxes, fees, and terms apply. Unlimited data is restricted to on-device smartphone usage. Domestic data roaming at 2G speeds. The Mel Robbins Podcast is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance, our exclusive insurance

• 45:22Mel Robbins?

  partner. You know when someone finishes your sentence because they already understood what you needed? That's what working with Amica feels like. They don't guess. They don't assume. They take the time to understand what you're trying to protect and why it matters. Most companies talk, talk, talk about putting customers first. Amica really doesn't. You feel it in the way they listen, the way they follow through, the way they treat you. As a customer-owned company, Amica puts your needs first. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. Did you know that over 95% of Americans don't get the daily recommended amount of fiber in their diet? And according to the experts that have appeared here on this podcast, you and I, we are not getting enough protein either. That's why I became a co-founder

• 46:06Mel Robbins?

  of Pure Genius Protein. It's a high-quality protein shot with 20 grams of protein and 5 grams of fiber in it. That's genius. I drink a Pure Genius Protein shot every single morning. In three seconds flat, boom, I get my protein and my fiber, and I'm ready to start the day. Check out Pure Genius Protein. Use code MEL10 at puregeniusprotein.com for 10% off your first order. 20 grams of protein, 5 grams of fiber, for under $3 a shot.

• 46:40Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. And today, you and I are here with Dr. Jonathan Height. He's explaining all of this extraordinary research about why we are so anxious right now. All right, Dr. Height, let's just jump right back in. Now, what do you want to say to the teenager, or the middle schooler, who's frustrated with their parents, and feels like they're the only one? What do you want them to know, Dr. Height?

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Well, I would start by acknowledging the pain. I would start by acknowledging that none of us want to be left out, especially at that age, that it is painful. So I would acknowledge that. And then I would also say that, in the long run, other kids are going to look at you as the cool one, because you're going to develop the skills and the confidence. You're going to learn how to do things in the world. You're going to retain a sense of focus and sharpness. So in the long run, things are going to be better for you.

• 47:30Mel Robbins?

  Well, sometimes, the most loving thing that you can do is something that your kids hate you for in the moment. And that's the job of being a parent.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. The job of a parent is to work yourself out of a job. It's to create a self-governing, functional young adult.

• 47:44Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  And even though it's painful. And I'm not coming here as the expert who did this all right. As I said, I did a really good job on social media. I did not do a very good job on general computers and watching videos on the computer. You know, during COVID, everything was on the computer. So I know how hard it is.

• 48:01Mel Robbins?

  I can almost hear the person listening, copy link, text a brother. Copy link, send a boyfriend. Copy link, send a husband. Copy link, send to my colleague that just got laid off. Because nobody has ever explained to me, the way that you just did, the direct connection between social media apps, video games, short-form content, five hours a day on average of being online, and how it is destroying motivation, drive, executive functioning, confidence, and zest for life

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Yes. That's a good phrase. Yes.

• 48:44Mel Robbins?

  And so I think there is probably a million young men, I'm not kidding when I say that, who will be receiving this episode from mothers and sisters and girlfriends and colleagues and friends and fraternity brothers. And what do you want to say to the guy?

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:02Mel Robbins?

  Who has started to feel that sense that he's not himself, he's not exercising, he has trouble motivating at work, he's feeling like the world is moving forward, and he's sitting still. What is possible when you embrace the truth that this isn't your fault, but there's something you can do?

• 49:20Speaker 01

  I would start with the conversation.

• 49:21Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  I heard this episode.

• 49:23Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  You know, I think it would be helpful to you. Do you want me to send it to you? So at least, because boys are very conscious of their status, and if someone is calling them a loser, and many of them know that they're losers, in the sense that they're not accomplishing it, and they

• 49:38Mel Robbins?

  Well, of course, because you're sitting there, and you see your friends excelling, or you used to play

• 49:42Speaker 01

  On social media, you see them excelling.

• 49:44Mel Robbins?

  You used to do this, or you're not able to like, hit the marks at work. And it's just like, and you're putting, and you just start to feel this sense

• 49:51Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right.

• 49:52Mel Robbins?

  That you're losing yourself.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 49:55Mel Robbins?

  And I don't think anybody's going to copy, paste, and go, hey, you're a loser. Listen to this. You know, you send it, and you say, this is one of the most compelling interviews I've ever heard. This professor at NYU is going to explain something.

• 50:08Mel Robbins?

  That I think you're gonna resonate with, and I really hope you'll take a moment and listen, particularly around minute XYZ.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:16Mel Robbins?

  Talk to me about the psychology of why you have to be a little bit.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:22Mel Robbins?

  You've gotta be manipulative or strategic.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Yes, that's right.

• 50:26Mel Robbins?

  And your approach, very intentional, because you want to make an impact. And I think the best news here is it's not your fault. This was done to you.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 50:34Mel Robbins?

  And there's something you can do about it.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  That's right. So as with any other addiction, sometimes people be defensive or in denial about it.

• 50:41Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  But for the most part, they're gonna be aware that they have a problem. And they're aware that other men are succeeding, other men are getting girlfriends, other men are driving fancy cars. And so it's very important that you enlist the man in wanting to change. Is there a vision of yourself in the future that you'd like to see? Or are you happy with the way things are now? And then also make it, make it seem easy to change. It can be hard to change overall, but it's easy to take a few steps. And so.

• 51:14Mel Robbins?

  What are the first couple of steps to take?

• 51:16Speaker 01

  The first couple of steps to take might be, let's just get your sleep in order. How about, could we just do like, everything gets shut off at 10 o'clock? Try to put some structures in space and time. If you're gonna take a drug away from an addict entirely, they're gonna have withdrawal symptoms, it's gonna be very difficult. But if you start saying, you know, okay, you know, you can take your drug, but you know, not in these places and not in these times, it's not as threatening. If the young man sees this as a goal, that they actually want to get there, and then they take a step, what happens? Dopamine. Progress gives you a hit of dopamine. And it can become self-reinforcing. So if you ask them, just, you know, just quit video games entirely, or stop watching porn entirely.

• 51:59Mel Robbins?

  Stop that thing.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's too big a step. But enlist them, help them make small changes, take small steps, and social support. So it's hard to beat an addiction with nothing, but if you can swap in a healthier habit, find another male friend who will play basketball with them once a week, or go on a walk.

• 52:17Mel Robbins?

  Like if you played sports as a youngster.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:20Mel Robbins?

  Pickup league.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  That's right. And that's what a lot of young men say is, and you see this in the books, young men will say, yeah, you know, I used to run, I used to play guitar, I used to do all these things, you know, and I wanna do them again. I just end up playing video games instead. So boys are really activity motivated. Young boys and men are much more about doing things, action in the world. So find ways to entice them into that with their friends.

• 52:44Mel Robbins?

  Well, let's talk about the advice to those of us who blew it. So you have kids in high school who are addicted to social media, or you've been listening to this, and you've seen your son withdraw, or your daughter just have a spike in anxiety. You feel that this could have been done differently, but now it's too late. What do you want us to know if we feel just bad and panicked about the way that we handled it?

• 53:16Speaker 01

  So I'm not gonna advocate, if your kid's whole life is on social media, I'm not gonna say, delete their account, take them off, because that, that would be really difficult for a lot of kids once they're deeply into it. But you can help them have much, much better habits. And remember that these apps, they expand like a gas to fill every available moment. That's how we get to five hours a day of social media use for kids, is that it fills up every moment when it possibly can. So you can stop that. So no matter how addicted your kids are, you can certainly apply a new policy, you know, new rule, all screens out of the bedroom at 10:00 PM, and you don't get it back until you're on your way to school, or something like that. But put in limits so that, especially to protect your kid's sleep.

• 53:57Mel Robbins?

  Well, let's talk about the limits. So give me the specific concrete. If you were to run your household with proper boundaries with devices.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:10Mel Robbins?

  What are they?

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Here's what I wish I did, here's what I'd recommend. Starting with, if you have young kids, you can have a computer in a common space, you can have a TV in a common space, and then you just simply have a rule, no screens in the bedroom, ever.

• 54:24Mel Robbins?

  Okay, so no, so the screens are in common places, no screens in bedrooms.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 54:30Mel Robbins?

  Rule number one.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Rule number two is, stories are good, but short form is bad. And so what I mean is, we have to all understand, this isn't like no screens, no TV. Understand that humans are storytelling animals. We have always told stories, we use stories to convey patterns to our kids, this is part of enculturation, all cultures use a lot of stories. So if you wanna have movie night with your kid, once or twice a week, that's a good thing, like you should do that, that's a really good thing. They pay attention for a two-hour movie, maybe have to break it up over two days when the kids are young, but they pay attention to a story which transports you into a fictional space. There's something magical and good about that. When you get lost in a Harry Potter book, when you get lost in a movie, that's all good, okay?

• 55:16Speaker 01

  And a TV screen can be a good way to do that. So watching long videos with another person, a sibling, a friend, or a parent, with a regular schedule, meaning only on Friday and Sunday, whatever, like some regular schedule. So it's not like, Mom, I'm bored, can we put on The Incredibles? You know, it has to be very, very regular, this is when we do movie night.

• 55:38Mel Robbins?

  You know, one of the things that has really helped me, and I just offer this, in case it might help you as you're listening, is I love the rule, because I like very concrete black and white things. I don't like things like, you could do this, no. I love no phone in the bedroom, it gets put away at 10 o'clock, you don't look at it again first thing in the morning until you're out the door, or whatever. I also, it's made a huge difference in our family, we have no phones at the table, period.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 56:04Mel Robbins?

  Not allowed, not allowed on the table.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Not even to look up something quick. Mom, I'm just looking up what we were talking about.

• 56:08Mel Robbins?

  No.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  No, that's right.

• 56:10Mel Robbins?

  And my husband is a big policer, no dual screens when we're watching TV, unless somebody walks in with a laptop and says, I can only watch with you guys if I can also send a couple of emails. Making it, but we try not to. It's better to just say, just send them and then come in.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 56:26Mel Robbins?

  Because then, they'll spend, they'll spend two hours sending an email versus the two minutes it takes, and then shutting the laptop.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 56:32Mel Robbins?

  But the other piece for me that's made a huge difference, because, you know, we can talk all we want about kids, but it starts with you as the parent. I don't have my phone on my body.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Good.

• 56:41Mel Robbins?

  And I noticed that if I don't have it on my body, it's like sitting on my desk or somewhere in the office right now. At home, it's always in the kitchen or in my bathroom. And like, you know, on the sink, area charging. If I don't have it on my body, I don't reach for it.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 56:56Mel Robbins?

  Can you say the rule about nighttime again?

• 56:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the rule about nighttime, no matter where you are, no matter how deeply your kids are into this, the rule has to be all devices out of the bedroom by 10 o'clock or something or other. Because that's where the worst stuff happens, is overnight. So the boys, a lot of boys are developing porn addictions, and that's gonna be a little more controlled if they don't have it overnight. That's where a lot of the, really the worst stuff, the sexual predation, happens is overnight.

• 57:21Mel Robbins?

  That is one rule we had. You didn't, you were not allowed to have your phone in your bedroom overnight. And I would have to go in there and pull it out of their hands, like you have to be the heavy in this regard. But what I also started to notice is that it really had been impacting our daughter's sleep, because they felt as though.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:42Mel Robbins?

  They needed to be available.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Ah, yes, oh my god.

• 57:46Mel Robbins?

  In case a friend needed them in the middle of the night. And so there is this psychological pressure that your child may be feeling.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:57Mel Robbins?

  That they can then blame on you when they text whomever they were talking to and said, my mom's about to take my phone, I'll see you at school tomorrow.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  That's right, that's right. And this is something that the kids themselves say. In fact, I just did a session with some middle school and high school kids a few days ago in New York, and when they were asked, like, what advice you have for parents in the audience, one of them said, let your kids blame it on you. They specifically, this was an eighth grade boy, he specifically said, impose the rules, and then your kid can say, well, I don't have it, I don't have Snapchat, because my parents won't let me, or I have to shut everything down at 9:30 because my parents make me. Like, let them blame it on you.

• 58:33Mel Robbins?

  So, Dr. Heit, you've done a wonderful job waking us up, teaching us, empowering us, and I'll speak for me personally, scaring me now that I see the dots all connected. Can you explain, though, the good news that is available to us now that we see the connection? What is possible, particularly for men and women, boys and girls, that have been impacted by this?

• 59:03Speaker 01

  So what I can assure listeners is that if you, if you have any slot machine apps on your phone, if you have any apps that are sending you notifications and getting you to come back and scroll, if you just move them off your phone, for starters, just use it only on a computer or on a, on an old iPad, if you get it off your phone, you'll be less addicted to your phone. And if you're less addicted to your phone, and you turn it back into a tool, not a master of your life. You're going to find your consciousness sort of clearing and coming back. And so what I'm saying is if you change your habits, you're going to change the things that are coming into your eyes and ears, and you're going to find that your attention is less fragmented.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  And when your attention starts coming together in larger pieces, then you can work more quickly and effectively with higher quality work. And then you have more time. And if you have more time, you feel less time pressure and you're less anxious.

• 59:56Mel Robbins?

  Do you have research that shows or proves that when you get control of your relationship with all these apps and social media, that mental health conditions get better?

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  There is a body of experiments. They're called social media reduction experiments. A lot of researchers have said, we're going to randomly assign people, 200 people, reduce their social media use to an hour a day, 200, no change, and we see what happens. We found, I think about 35 of them by now, those that go on for at least a week, ideally two or three, and that focus on mental health, on anxiety and depression, almost all of them find that the levels of those things go down if you're off for a week or two.

• 1:00:42Mel Robbins?

  That's how quickly this can turn around?

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  That's right. Because think about dopamine. Your dopamine circuits, they'll recover if you stop the stimulation. And if you start doing, thinking, you start doing other things. So, but very important is that one of the groups that did this was meta. We know from the leaks, we know from all the documents that have come out, they did an experiment, they called it Project Mercury, and it was Facebook users and Instagram users. It was around 2018, I think. And they randomly assigned them, they requested that they, I believe it was stop using, stop using it. And they just did it for one week. And they found that the people who got off, their mental health improved. Now, this was supposed to be a pilot study, they were going to do a much larger study. But once they found out, oops, oops, this looks bad. It looks like they never did the larger study.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  But we have that, we have their findings from that and they talk about it. And one of them says, it looks like it's causal. This is not a correlation, this is causal evidence. So we know this very well. If you're addicted to something and you stop doing it, for the first few days, it actually can be painful. But if you stick with it, within a week or two, your life comes back.

• 1:01:48Mel Robbins?

  I love that phrase, your life comes back. Because I think we all feel like we're losing

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a deadness.

• 1:01:56Mel Robbins?

  Our lives, there's a deadness. For somebody who feels very inspired and motivated by all this work and research and advocacy, is there a place that someone can go to get tools to advocate changes at their local school?

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:02:12Mel Robbins?

  Or to have guidance on how to talk within your own family about this?

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  So if you want to take action, please go to anxiousgeneration.com. And at the website, we have a take action button. And then you can choose, are you a parent? Are you a teacher or educator? Are you a legislator? And so we have specific advice for all of them. Also, letgrow.org, if you want to give your kids more of a real world childhood. Those are the two organizations that my team and I have created to help parents and teachers and everyone else give our kids back life in the real world.

• 1:02:48Mel Robbins?

  Thank you, thank you, thank you, Dr. Height, for providing all these resources. Thank you for this extraordinary book and for scaring the hell out of us, but also, no, but also, like, it's important to know the truth.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Mel Robbins?

  Dr. Height, what are your parting words?

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  No matter how rich you are, you can't buy more attention. And most of us give it away for free. Young people tell me they get a notification every time they get an email because they don't want to miss anything. But if you commit to not missing things, that means you're never fully present and you actually miss everything. So turn off almost all notifications, put an almost infinite value on your attention, only give it to companies that are offering you something really valuable, like, of course, Uber and Lyft, you should leave on notifications, you want to know if the car is coming. But no newspapers, no sports scores, no nothing should interrupt you. Treat your attention as though it is sacred and precious.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  And if you can get larger pieces of it, your life will change.

• 1:03:51Mel Robbins?

  I cannot thank you enough for doing this research, for writing this blockbuster book, for all of the advocacy that you're doing, for the support that you're giving to the class action lawsuits that people are bringing to try to get the laws changed. And I really appreciate your work. And I know that my life is going to change for the better because of it. And I know millions of people's lives will as well. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Do not stop.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  My pleasure. And thank you, Mel, for all you do to bring psychological research out to the world.

• 1:04:27Mel Robbins?

  You're welcome. And thank you. Thank you for making the time. You heard Dr. Height say, your attention is the most important thing that you have. In fact, where you pour your time, where you put your attention, is what determines how your life is. Period. And so thank you for giving your single most precious resource, your attention, to this conversation. It matters. And it's going to empower you to support your kids and support your family and support yourself in taking your power back. And in case no one else tells you today, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life. And there's no doubt in my mind, if you take everything that you learned today and you apply it to your life, your life is going to get better. And you're going to feel better.

• 1:05:12Mel Robbins?

  And you're going to feel more in control of it. And you deserve that. All right, I'm going to welcome you in to the very next episode. I will see you there at the moment you hit play.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Now, is my mic close enough to my mouth? I had to move it so I can move, I talk with my hands.

• 1:05:28Mel Robbins?

  No, you're perfect.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  This is good?

• 1:05:30Mel Robbins?

  Don't worry about it, hands are fantastic. We got you, Jonathan Height. It's all good. And smartphone, and smartphone addiction on children, once you know what's going on, you're going to be, you will be empowered to change it. And should do to take your power back and start using your phone as it's, and start using your smartphone. He's a tenured professor, he's been a tenured professor at NYU Stern School of Business. And so thank you for giving your attention to this, oh my God. All right, great. Awesome. Great job. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper.

• 1:06:14Mel Robbins?

  This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  Sirius XM Podcasts.

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