533: Vietnam '68-War, Life, Leadership, and Loss w Marine NCO Jack W. Jaunal

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe A raw look at war through Vietnam 68: Jax’s Journal by Jack W. Jaunal. Learn to write things down before they’re gone, own your mistakes before they grow, and understand the true weight leaders carry in life and death. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jaco Podcast number 533 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:06Jocko Willink?

  The place is staging battalion Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton, California. Most of them are in their teens, privates, privates first class and Lance Corporals. Among them are the corporals and sergeants, not much older, breaking into their twenties. They come in all shapes and sizes, all hours of the day. Most of them are young, the new breed of Marines on their way to Vietnam. Sprinkled among this group are the old salts, Marines with many years of service on their record books. Many are veterans of our last war, Korea. For them, this will be their second war.

• 0:47Jocko Willink?

  For a few, like me, it's war number three. My thoughts rolled back over the years, 24 years of soldiering, 25 if I counted that part-time bit in the State Guard. It all began during World War II. 1944 was the year and a new recruit was paid $50 a month. I was 17 years old, five foot five and 145 pounds of enthusiasm. The Marine Corps turned me down. Dejected, I tried them all and received the same reply, "Sorry." Poor eyesight and a history of tuberculosis as a kid just did not help a guy at all.

• 1:31Jocko Willink?

  I was walking in downtown Los Angeles when I happened to see the sign, "American Seamen for American Ships, Join the U.S. Maritime Service." That was my ticket to the war. We marched through the city on our way from the recruiting station to the train depot. Our journey had started. I remember how people looked and sometimes waved as we marched by. We felt like heroes off to war. Hit the deck and move out. Suddenly, we found out how the road to war would be paved. Still, we were young and eager. Damn the submarines. We are the men of the Merchant Marine.

• 2:13Jocko Willink?

  When I was eighteen, I volunteered for the Army. I could not enlist, but they would accept me through the selective service system. I was assigned to an infantry unit as a machine gunner. However, the war ended before I could get any machine gun into action, so it was too Japan for occupation duty.

• 2:33Jocko Willink?

  But I can still hear the call, "Machine guns up", and I would run forward with thirty-five pounds of MG barrel across my shoulders and my pack digging into my back.

• 2:46Jocko Willink?

  "The Corps has been good to me", I thought. The only outfit for a professional soldier. I joined the Corps in nineteen fifty-two after I returned from Korea. That war was still going on, and the Corps no longer cared about my poor eyesight or that I had TB as a kid.

• 3:09Jocko Willink?

  Those right there are some excerpts from a book called Vietnam Sixty-Eight: Jack's Journal, written by Jack W. Johnel,

• 3:22Jocko Willink?

  who spent almost thirty-four years in the military, as you could hear. Started off serving service as a Merchant Marine in World War II and became a soldier at the end of World War II. Then he served as a soldier in the Korean War, where he participated in seven campaigns, including duty with the British Twenty-Ninth Brigade, and as a soldier, he also served with the First Marine Division. During his time in Korea, he was wounded, received the Purple Heart, and as you just heard, after Korea. And after seven years of Army service, he enlisted in the Marine Corps. It's hard to get in the Marine Corps right now with prior service. They don't really take that anymore, but during the Korean War, prior service, we don't care.

• 4:08Jocko Willink?

  So we joined the Marine Corps, eventually served in Vietnam, including time during the Tet Offensive and some other significant operations there, Operation Auburn, Operation Mead River. During that time, he was promoted to Sergeant Major. And also during that time, he kept a journal. And this book is a result of that journal, which was published in 1989. I actually have a signed copy that I'm holding right now. After retirement, he studied history, eventually got his master's degree in American history. But this book is a firsthand account

• 4:47Jocko Willink?

  of American history from a senior enlisted Marine in Vietnam, one who had served in World War II, had fought in Korea, and he understood the life and the death of the infantrymen. So, let's get into it.

• 5:10Jocko Willink?

  He says this in the preface, "Like many veterans of various wars, I remember more than once saying, I could write a book about this." I had that feeling. "The two times, probably we say it most emphatically, are during recruit training and during a wartime experience. I never wrote anything about my experiences in World War II. All that remains are some memories and a few letters I wrote to my mother. I never wrote anything about my experiences in Korea. All that remains are more memories and several letters I wrote to my wife. I did write stories about my experiences in Vietnam. These are compiled now as Vietnam 68, Jack's Journal. This book is a daily record of events, my experiences and thoughts at that time. The

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  stories are true, written at the time, recorded or very soon after, from notes on a desk, calendar, in a pocket notebook, on the backs of envelopes, or the top of a C ration box." And this is some advice that I've been trying to give to people.

• 6:16Jocko Willink?

  Man, take notes. And look, I'm not talking about, you know, you hear like the journaling thing, like, like do journaling to make your life better and like all that stuff. I'm telling you, do it just to remember what the hell was going on in your life. Like you, you went to college, right?

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. Well, yeah.

• 6:34Jocko Willink?

  I bet so many things happened in college that were funny, cool, humorous. And you forgot.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Bro, yeah, fully. There was, um, I told you about this, I think. My mother sent me a two-page, you know, those yellow note pads or whatever.

• 6:54Jocko Willink?

  Legal pad.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Written in pencil. I wrote it and I barely remember the incident, but it was of how I like. For lack of a better term, abandoned my younger brother down in the town by my house. Yeah, Kenyatta. And he, uh, like after school, like I guess we lost him. I think we ditched him. But you know, it's a small little town, Cloa Town. It's like small. So it's not like, oh my gosh. But and apparently it was like this thing. So anyway, and, and I'm reading it. She sent it to me recently, like within the last like three years. She sent it to me just, I don't know why. Cause and then, uh, yeah, I was reading it and I'm like, yeah, that's, that's with the, it's an interesting little slice

• 7:36Speaker 01

  of a time long gone, by the way, but it really happened. That was a real time and real events, you know?

• 7:42Jocko Willink?

  And how well did you remember those without seeing the paper?

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Oh, I would never have thought of it ever in my whole life. In fact, when I was reading it, little sparks of memories was coming back, like with when I was like, yeah, I feel like I remember this day, you know? I don't remember writing it, but I, you know, it did bring back the actual memory, you know?

• 8:03Jocko Willink?

  The way the memories work, I don't know how they work like technically via, you know, I'm not going to give you the physiology. But if you don't make those connections, so here's an example for me, like I grew up on the East Coast, right? When I go to my hometown, I have, I do go to my hometown once every 10 years, let's say on average. When I go there, there's a lot of things I don't remember, like people will tell me stories about me that I don't remember. And part of it's because I don't reconnect those neurons every day. So counter that when, uh, when I was in the Navy. I did eighteen out of twenty years stationed in Coronado in SEAL Team One, SEAL Team Seven, and SEAL Team Three and Trade At.

• 8:49Jocko Willink?

  And all those buildings, when I was at those buildings, because they're in different locations now, like SEAL Team One's in a different location, SEAL Team Three's in a different location, SEAL Team Seven's, they're all in different locations now, Trade At's in a different location. When I was at those commands, they were all a hundred meters apart. So when I was eighteen years old, I looked at those stairs and I was like, I remember walking up those stairs. You know, and you get reminded of these things. If you don't get reminded of them, they fade away. They just fade away. And so if you don't take notes on what you're doing and what, how things are going and where you are, you just forget them. And if you think about what your life is, your life is memories. If you don't have memories, what you, you're a dog, right?

• 9:33Jocko Willink?

  You ever look at your dog and you're like, I mean, my dog, as smart as they seem, they have no idea what's going on. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes, you know, you, you know, when you talk to your dog, you're like, hey buddy, I'm gonna head out for a little while. That dog is just like, this means nothing. He's like, am I going with you or not? Like, do I get in the car or not? That's the only, it's a binary thing. And when you leave, he doesn't know if you're gone forever, or if you're gone for five minutes. But he's gonna, he just look, that's the way he's looking at me. He's looking at me like, I don't know how long you're gonna be gone for? Forever? Is this goodbye? But he doesn't know, so he's just there. And if you don't take notes on what's going on in your life, and by the way, I'm not preaching this because I didn't do it. I did not do this. I wish I would have done this.

• 10:16Jocko Willink?

  When we had Joe Claiborne on the podcast and he pulled out his journals and he's got detailed drawings of everything that he did for his time in the military. Man, that is awesome. And look, it's not just military. That's why I brought up you going to college. But you know, you go to college, you get a job at some place, you meet some girl. You know, one thing that's cool is I got letters, thankfully. You know, my wife saved all the letters that I wrote to her, you know? And I, she found some, she was going through some yesterday. I was like, dang, girl, let's go. You know what I'm saying? But here it was. If you don't have that. Then, you know, what are you, what are you gonna do? Like I was telling her in this letter, I said, hey, you know,

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  when I get out of the Navy, I'll get a job while I'll be home more. I said, maybe I'll be an OB lifeguard, you know? Oh, she reads, I said, maybe OB lifeguard, question mark? But the funny thing is, I remember thinking that might not be a bad job for me. Get out of the Navy, retire from the Navy and then be a lifeguard. And, you know, be on down at the beach, surf, you know, whatever. Be home, go home for lunch or something. You know, that was a real thought that I had. So, but if I didn't read that, I would have been, I would have never thought about that again.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:33Jocko Willink?

  So if you can, make some small notes. Even if you just, and you're gonna see some of this journal is just literally what happened that day. Minimum, minimal of what happened. So keep that in mind and you're gonna see some of the, some of the profound writing that comes out of that in this book. Um, I think obviously I'm not reading the whole book, hitting some highlights. This isn't when he's talking about the guys that are getting trained up to go to Vietnam. During his training cycle in the company, the marine replacement spends three days in administrative, administration matters, and then he moves to a field training area for nine days. Here he is giving classes on classes on Viet Cong mines and booby traps. Search of a Viet Cong village, booby trap trails and fires.

• 12:17Jocko Willink?

  The various weapons available to him, especially the M16 rifle. A lot has been said about the M16, most of it's good after firing it. I feel it's a good weapon, but must be kept clean to function properly. An entire Vietnamese village has been built at the staging battalion. After a demonstration of the techniques of the village search, each marine applies the lessons learned by going through the village under simulated conditions. What struck me about this is this is exactly what we did getting guys ready for Afghanistan and Iraq. We built simulated villages. We showed them how to clear them and what to do with them. And then we put simulated conditions. The same applies to the Viet Cong trail to see if he notices mines and booby traps. By the way, as you heard from Roger Hayden on this podcast, they started doing that point man trail during NOM.

• 13:01Jocko Willink?

  And we still ran the exact same point man trail when I was running training.

• 13:07Jocko Willink?

  Upon completion of the training cycle, Marines are sent to one of three bases to fly out Travis Air Force Base, Northern Air Force Base, or Marine Corps Air Station at El Toro. Telephone calls are made, letters written, then to Okinawa aboard a 707. Excess uniforms and gear are stored at Okinawa. A 24-hour to 48-hour stop. Those going to Vietnam land at Da Nang. For me, another tour has started. And he arrives 23 December 1967. It's Christmas Eve and those going home are trying to get out. Some will not make it in time for Christmas at home. Army buses bring them in at all hours of day and night. Many of them are still dirty and only a few hours out of Vietnam. Outside, a group of young Marines in their fresh greens, three or four more, three or

• 13:51Jocko Willink?

  four ribbons on their chest are smiling and joking, waiting to shove off for home. Passing them are another group, sea bags on their shoulders, going to barracks. These Marines are their replacements, going south when their flight is ready. This is taking place in Okinawa, I didn't make that clear. As a couple passed me, I hear one say, "I sure hope I come back." As he looks at the group going home, his buddies reply, "Don't worry, you'll come back. One way or another, you'll come back." That's like the classic, the classic Vietnam scene, right? The battle-hardened guys coming out of the field in jacked-up cammies and all that,

• 14:32Jocko Willink?

  dirty, skinny, worn, and then the fresh cuts coming in. They're just fresh off the, fresh off the boat, getting ready to head over there. You know, I talked about that on one of the Unraveling podcasts. We had some of the contractors that were getting ready, or they swung by. This is my first appointment, this is like 2003, 2004. Actually, this was 2004. And we like the contractor showed up from like a contracting company and you know, they're wearing like brand new gear and you're looking at it and you're like, man, I don't know

• 15:16Jocko Willink?

  if I put my magazines over there. Like it's gonna be hard to get to like when you're in a vehicle, you're not gonna be able to access your pistol. Like you're having all those thoughts. And then the one thing like they were traveling in armored vehicles, but armored vehicles at that time were just basically like a Ford Explorer and they put like armored, they put armored windows in, kind of armored the door. They'd, they'd put in the trunk or whatever. What do you call it? The trunk of a SUV.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  I call it the trunk.

• 15:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So that thing wasn't armored, but they put like armor behind the backseat. So, and they didn't really do much with the suspension. It was just basically the cheapest possible armored vehicle you could make. And then I remember asking the guys like, hey, do you guys have run flats, which is a vehicle, a tire that can run even when it gets shot, it'll keep going for a little while. I'm like, do you guys have run flats? No, we don't. So that means if you get your tire shot out, you're not going to be able to drive anymore. And it was terrible to see and it was a foreboding of what was gonna happen. Uh, fast forward a little bit. The Marines live in hooches, about eight or more to a hooch. Many have TVs in the hooch. There is a chapel for church services and a recreation hunt for

• 16:25Jocko Willink?

  working out, drawing sporting gear and some paperback novels. The mess hall is large and being fixed up all the time. At night, movies are shown there. One incoming shell hit the corner of the mess hall, but it's repaired now. Just giving you like some kind of a feel for what the guys are living. When arriving in Vietnam, we are taught to respect the native customs, traditions and religion. Don't shoot up the temples or destroy the graves of ancestors. Respect the native beliefs. The Marines try, but sometimes it's mighty hard. The tracked landing vehicles, LTVs, from one of our companies had been going on a path between some graves in their area of operations when the mine went off, wounding the driver and causing quite a bit of damage. Charlie knew that the vehicles would not go through

• 17:09Jocko Willink?

  the graveyard. So as the vehicles were channeled between the graves, he placed his mines in the best position. The company, the company sergeant, company gunner sergeant on his second tour of duty in Vietnam was suspicious. He ordered the remaining vehicles side to side and drove through the graveyard, tearing the graves apart. Many graves in Vietnam are about eighteen inches high, small mounds of earth. Afterward, the Marines dug through the graves. Not one body, not a bone, nothing. Charlie had made a dummy grave site, knowing that the vehicles would not go through, and had planted his mind where the vehicles would have to travel. Sort of like fighting a war with the deck stacked against you.

• 17:51Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes it is hard for the Marines to respect those customs, traditions, religions, and graveyards. Because the enemy's gonna take advantage of it.

• 17:59Jocko Willink?

  And now they had that thing where they, you know, they called the VC Charlie? And then they talk about Charlie as an individual human. You know, like, he planted the mine.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Alright, yeah, yeah.

• 18:11Jocko Willink?

  Like, we would call the enemy moog.

• 18:15Jocko Willink?

  And, but you, you, moog is plural. It's like, the moog.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  The moog, yeah.

• 18:20Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't like, a moog.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:22Jocko Willink?

  It was the moog, all of them. They all planted a mine there.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:25Jocko Willink?

  Because, but Charlie's singular.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:28Jocko Willink?

  And so they talk, now, we talk about the enemy, like, we would call the enemy he.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:33Jocko Willink?

  Like, you'll hear the military leaders will do that. You know, we've got the enemy over here, we think he might do this. They talk about the enemy in a singular way. But moog is a little less singular. The moog's over here, you know, I never really said that. I always think, thought of the moog as plural.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:50Jocko Willink?

  They tried to say, we couldn't say moog.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was what, disrespectful or something?

• 18:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because of the traditions, right? And Mujahideen is like warrior for God. But here's, when this word came down, I sent up the chain of command that the local populace, who hated the insurgents that were fighting and killing them, you know what they called the insurgents that were fighting and killing them? Mujahideen. Moog.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Moog, yeah.

• 19:16Jocko Willink?

  And so, you know, we were being so aggressively politically correct that, uh, it was, we went overboard. They're moog. The local populace, who hates them, calls them moog. Mujahideen.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Very principled, which is cool.

• 19:32Jocko Willink?

  Check. Fast forward a little bit. By the way, this is just a fantastic book. 9/1/1968.

• 19:41Jocko Willink?

  "The young corporal had no statement to make," and by the way, just echo Charles. So he's a senior guy. You know, we've, we've, we've read a lot of books from senior officers. We've read a lot of books from frontline kind of soldiers and Marines. This guy's a senior enlisted Marine. So his perspective is, is a little different than we're used to hearing. And again, for our podcast, just by virtue of people that write books, we've got a lot of junior enlisted guys. We've got a lot of officers and then senior officers, but the senior NCO, we've done some, but he's a really good example of it. That's why his perspective is, is so interesting.

• 20:27Jocko Willink?

  "The young corporal had no statement to make. He had given a written one at the investigation. The company commander and I were at battalion headquarters because the Marine was from our company. The sergeant major had just marched the Marine in and the Colonel asked him if he had any statement to make.

• 20:44Jocko Willink?

  "I have read your statement," said the Colonel. "Would you care to repeat it to me to be sure I have read it correctly?" "Yes, sir." And the Marine told his story. "The Marine, a corporal, had been in charge of an ambush patrol one night outside the wire. His patrol instructions were to set up an all-night ambush for the VC. After the corporal placed his Marines in position, a noise was heard where no Marine was supposed to be. Thinking it was the VC, some of the patrol members fired.

• 21:18Jocko Willink?

  It was one of their own men. He had moved out of position and wandered into the kill zone. He told his buddies in the patrol to say the VC shot him. He didn't want any Marines to be blamed because the guy lived. So he got shot by his own guys. He lived. And he told his buddies in the patrol to say the VC shot him. He didn't want any of the Marines to be blamed. The corporal talked it over with the patrol and they decided to claim it was enemy action."

• 21:45Jocko Willink?

  Upon return to camp, the corporal made his report. It was a false report. Next day, on his own, he decided to correct his report and make a true statement. Now he faced the Colonel for final action on his case. Now what you gotta remember about this is, if you don't tell everyone what happened, no one learned anything. Cause that's a mistake. And if you don't say, hey, guys, we had one of our guys that had to take a piss, or he wanted to go check something out and he left the wire and we shot him. If you don't say that to everybody, other people will make that mistake. That's what makes this, that's what makes this so important. Continue on. You step forward on your own, question the Colonel? Yes, sir. The control of your squad was poor.

• 22:29Jocko Willink?

  The corporal, as a squad leader, must have complete control of his squad at all times. He may be called upon to make quick decisions at any moment. They must be right, the right decisions. The corporal made an error, corrected it later, but he made the wrong decision. Now he was man enough to step forward and admit it. Marines get killed in war. And sometimes it has been friendly fire that killed them. War is hell and accidents do happen. No need for a false report. An unfortunate accident, but it was not his fault. A marine had wandered into the wrong area after he'd been placed in position by the patrol leader. Fortunately, the marine was only wounded seriously, but he was recovering in the hospital.

• 23:15Jocko Willink?

  For a false report, reduction to the rank of Lance Corporal, said the Colonel. Colonel, considering the excellent service record of the corporal, his performance of duty, and based on the recommendation of others, the Colonel continued, the sentence is suspended for a period of three months. So he busted him down in rank, but said, if you can keep your nose clean for three months, you'll be okay. But you can understand that if you're a corporal and you have a blue on blue, you think this is the mortal sin. So you don't understand that the senior leadership goes, hey, man, we get it. Accidents happen. But when you lie about it, that's a problem. Again, once again, lessons don't get learned. The cover up will always get you. You cannot cover things up.

• 23:57Jocko Willink?

  Is that understood, said the Colonel as he looked in the corporal, hard in the eyes. Yes, sir, replied the corporal, and a very slight look of relief seemed to pass over his face. You showed the mark of a man when you stepped forward and corrected an error. Use better judgment from now on. Yes, sir. About face, ordered the sergeant major, march out. There is a young corporal in this battalion that has the mark of a man upon him, a man among many in this battalion of Marines. Taking, I said, what a great story. Two pages, taking ownership of what's going on in your world.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I know you put the tone on it when you're reading it, but he was like, accidents happen, no need for a fake report. Like, man, that's kinda, that's kinda solid, because there's, there's different ways to say that, you know?

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Like, if you're, it was almost like making a fake report seemed kinda understandable, but hey, don't worry, don't, there's no need for that, you know? I see why you thought you had to do that, you know? But hey, there's no need for that, because accidents happen and, you know, whatever. Rather than, let's say, uh, accident, accidents happen, man, you shouldn't have made that fake report, you know, kind of a tone, you know? Now you're really, you know, it's, it's a different kind of thing where you can now, with that first one, you can emphasize this, like, learning process, like, hey, this is like, kinda part of the process, you know? Don't jam it up by doing, you know, this stuff, you know, it's okay, you don't have to do that, you know?

• 25:26Jocko Willink?

  It is very strange how people perceive what is gonna get them in trouble.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:31Jocko Willink?

  Right? And we've talked about this in a bunch of different ways, but thinking, you know, when you cover something up, it's gonna be way worse. You should learn that as a kid, you know, the time that you lied to your parents, or the time that you, uh, whatever, you, you tried to get one over on the teacher, and you try and cover something up, that's when things, that's, that's what you're gonna get in trouble for. People make mistakes. Now, look, if you're doing something intentionally bad and you purposely do something, and then you try and cover it up like that's gonna be double bad, but when you make an, an honest mistake, I could promise you, no one wanted to freaking wound one of their own Marines, guaranteed, so.

• 26:10Jocko Willink?

  You shouldn't be covering that up, not to mention, like I said, now you've got lessons that are not being learned.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:16Jocko Willink?

  Which is not good.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  You are, and this, it's so funny, I can see these little patterns where it kind of gets all mapped down to this idea of short term versus long term. You know, so like covering up something or making excuses or whatever, that's like so much of a short term in the moment. Cope, you know, but if you see kind of the big picture and the overall thing that's going on long term. It makes more sense, even from a logical, even from a survival standpoint. Um, or even if from a defense mechanism standpoint. If you're like thinking of the long term, you're thinking about learning, you're thinking about like, how is this going to affect things? Over time, you know? Um, rather than yeah, covering up, if you think about how's this, how is my cover up going to affect things over time?

• 27:03Speaker 01

  One, you're living a lie, which is shameful and you know, that I think that haunts most people, you know, when you're living a lie.

• 27:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because when's it gonna come out?

• 27:10Speaker 01

  When's it gonna come out? You're getting held hostage about it? Yeah, you know, it's like, it feels slimy too on the inside. And then, um, and then, yeah, like you said, like no one learns from it, see what I'm saying? But then even when you can expand that out, it kind of makes you think like, hey, let's say you're dealing with kids or you're a boss or you are a boss and you're dealing with like your employees, whatever. It kind of paints a different picture than what you might see normally. So like, um, you know, you know, the kids make mistake, they get punished for it. Or the kids make a mistake, he admits to it and it's like, well, at least you admitted to it, kind of a thing. But it kind of probably be beneficial to be like, hey, I like that you freaking manned up. That's what a, that's what a real like man or human or you know, whatever. That's what, that's what a person with character does.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  And bro, I noticed that, good job, you know, keep that up, kind of a thing.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  If you can kind of engineer it where you're cultivating that, it'll come more natural over time.

• 28:04Jocko Willink?

  No doubt, no doubt. Yeah, we, we lean real hard into you lied to me or you tried to cover this up and you're going to pay for that? As opposed to like, oh, you did a good job admitting that something went wrong. Good job. Lean into that one more.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that.

• 28:17Jocko Willink?

  Positive reinforcement.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  The idea of like problem solving, you know, a problem slash solution kind of way of handling it. I felt like it's been a good, good move, you know, let's say, I don't know, someone forgot to take out trash or someone freaking, you know, spilt some whatever, whatever the problem is, the problem is, okay, my boy spills chocolate milk. Whatever.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  The problem is,

• 28:43Jocko Willink?

  Chocolate milk?

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. The problem is the milk is spilt.

• 28:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Right? Um, the problem is, hey, maybe, maybe he was, wasn't being as careful as maybe he could have or should have been in the kitchen in that particular moment, in that particular place. Those are the problems, right?

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Don't make another problem by yelling at the kid. Now you got another problem, milk still spilt. He still was not very careful. And now you kind of either, whether it be damaged the relationship, uh, now he's scared, now he, you know, whatever. If you're like, hey, look, the problem is the milk is spilt. We're gonna try to be more careful. Cleaned up the milk, no problem, you know, thanks for taking responsibility. That's a better way to do it than yelling at him, because now, okay, he's, he cleans it up, problem solved. He'll be more careful, problem solved. He took responsibility and is more inclined to take more responsibility in the future when mistakes happen, which they do. Future problem solved, see what I'm saying?

• 29:40Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Rather than yelling and screaming.

• 29:43Jocko Willink?

  Yelling and screaming.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Or beating them. That's the worst.

• 29:46Jocko Willink?

  Not gonna help.

• 29:48Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward thirteen January nineteen sixty eight, the reaction squad was going out on patrol this afternoon, so I decided to go along since all my clerks and the supply sergeant are on the reaction squad. Now, why would a forty year old first sergeant go on patrol with a squad of Marines when he did not have to go? It has been seventeen years since my last patrol, Korea, nineteen fifty. I was a corporal then and much younger. H and S company provides the reaction squad for the battalion. It's composed of the Marines from heat and steam. I believe it exemplifies the doctrine of the Corps, all Marines and riflemen first, our riflemen first and specialists second. So what the, the group that he's in charge of is kind of like the administrative group, um, headquarters.

• 30:34Jocko Willink?

  And but they are the quick reaction force. So if something happens, these clerks and cooks, and they're going to get their gear on and go get it. So they're going on a patrol. Fast forward a little bit, we leave the road now and start across country, sometimes referred to as Indian country. There are many native graves through here. We see bullet scars on many a headstone. Fast forward, there are times Charlie plants booby traps on the side of the dikes, then fires. If you jump off and into the paddy, you may land on a booby trap. So if Charlie fires a few rounds, this old man will fall down on the trail. That's something the Vietnam guys told us, and it's always true. Like you're walking down the street and there's like a, if you start getting shot at and there's a perfect area of cover,

• 31:16Jocko Willink?

  chances are you're getting blown up if you go in there. And this got it, I didn't experience this, but in Afghanistan, the IEDs got so bad that even when they got contacted, they wouldn't like move to cover. They would stay where they are, get down, but they'd have to be very, very cautious. Fast forward, an interesting three hour walk. So now I've been on patrol. What was it like? Routine, I guess. After 24 years of soldiering one of one type or another, it seems a bit routine. The feeling at 40 is more relaxed than it was at 20. The average age of this squad is probably 20. They are good and know their business. Some of them have been hit while on patrol, so they know the score. You can

• 32:01Jocko Willink?

  tell they like seeing an old salt along. It gives them a bit of confidence. So you do not want to fail them if the chips are down. It has been said that the old salt is the anchor on the line, and maybe he is. They know, and I know, that a first sergeant is not supposed to go out on patrols, but it does not happen every day. And I think some of them liked it. 13 young Marines on patrol and an old salt thinking, hell, these rice patties smell no different than the ones in Korea.

• 32:36Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward 16 January 1968 rumor is we may have we may be hit in Da Nang area before Tet Vietnamese New Year 100% alert all hands in holes can sleep but ready for action fast forward according to Military Assistance Command Vietnam statistics for 1967 are 87,534 enemy dead the total of the enemy dead is the equivalent of more than 114 NVA battalions Americans killed in action KIA for 1967 or 15,997

• 33:20Jocko Willink?

  it's a different level than I experienced for sure

• 33:25Jocko Willink?

  fast forward January 24 January 1968 the old warhorse heard the sound of the bugle and trotted off to battle it was about 4:30 in the afternoon when the word was passed reaction squad and tractors down to the COC bunker now draw your ammunition draw your rations ammo radioman and a corpsman I went topside and talked to one of my office clerks Sergeant Tidwell the assistant squad leader why don't you go with us first Sergeant I sure would like to but the old man would probably say no you could check with the captain he wasn't too happy about me going last time the old warhorse could hear the bugles he sort of got that old feeling some of that gung-honess not wanting to be left in the rear with the gear he galloped off to see the company

• 34:09Jocko Willink?

  commander for permission to go can't do it said the captain damn it to hell why not skipper after some hard talking to the skipper the skipper said okay if the XO approves the XO was the battalion executive officer so off galloped the old warhorse again

• 34:28Jocko Willink?

  No, said the major. How could we justify it? Although the answer was no, the bugle could still be heard. But it was no use. First sergeants do not go with the squads on patrol or small sized operations. Besides, the Colonel was against it. It was six in the evening. The tracks bellowed a roar with their engines and started through the wire at the back of the CP area. The old warhorse could see the reaction squad atop the tracks. Corporal Scott, the special services NCO, Corporal Malone, the chaplain's assistant, Corporal Stubbs, who would be going home soon, Sergeants Rebo Nord and Tidwell and others.

• 35:08Jocko Willink?

  Through the exhaust, sand and setting sun, the old warhorse sensed another feeling as the young Colts rode off.

• 35:17Jocko Willink?

  I damn near cried.

• 35:21Jocko Willink?

  He wants to go get some. And he can't. And they tell him he can't. Like, it's, you know, two tracks going out with whatever, 12, 15 Marines. It's just not justifiable. And, you know, he did go out on some patrols. You can go out, you know, like, at the right time.

• 35:41Jocko Willink?

  But the skipper said no. Fast forward, 7th February 1968.

• 35:48Jocko Willink?

  There were two small paper bags on my desk.

• 35:52Jocko Willink?

  I knew what they were before I opened them. The personal effects of the bodies of our two Marines killed in action. I opened the first bag. It contained a small religious medallion, insignia of rank and a cigarette lighter. The lighter still had blood on it. The Marine had been shot three times in the chest. "Chris," I yelled. "Yes, top. Clean the blood off this lighter. Can't send it home like that." Chris is a Lance Corporal, Steve Christensen, Boise, Idaho, the company driver, a good Marine. The other bag contained $11 in military script and a religious medal on a chain. One married, one signal.

• 36:34Jocko Willink?

  Charlie plays no favorites. "Chris, get the Jeep. I want to go to the hospital. We have two wounded Marines there, both from the same operation. Four wounded and two dead. That platoon really got hit."

• 36:47Jocko Willink?

  We arrived at the hospital and it was like all the others in a war zone. Men sitting around, medics and corpsmen going from place to place. The stretcher bearers waiting for the copters to come in with the medevacs. One right there was fresh, must have just arrived. The sign on the door said, "Ward 5A, he's in here." Lance Corporal Eugene Bevel from Texarkana, Arkansas, was wounded in the left hand and below the right eye by shrapnel and small arms fire. The LTV he was riding on was hit while in support of an infantry unit. He saw his buddies get hit. The one with the $11 on my desk was quote, "Reaching down to help a wounded grunt" when he got hit.

• 37:31Jocko Willink?

  Belleville continued the story. "I saw him straighten up when he was hit. One of the men grabbed him before he fell off the track." Belleville sat there a minute quiet. He had that stare many men get in wars when a battle or a fight is still fresh in their minds, remembering what it was like with their buddies dying around them. He had a misty look in his eyes when I left. Probably glad it was over for him and yet not wanting to leave his buddies behind. I do not know. I suppose it was a look of unbelief. The ambulance was leaving with a load of cases when I climbed aboard the Jeep. Among the fringe benefits of being a first sergeant is the honor of visiting Marines in the hospital.

• 38:16Jocko Willink?

  I identifying the KIA's and inventorying personal effects. Someone has to do it. For my KIA's, it is all over. For the wounded in action, if they're lucky, it's a trip back home. For me, it will probably mean more KIA's and wounded in action and more widows and heartbroken parents. That part of war has never changed.

• 38:54Jocko Willink?

  A few days later, 13th February 1968.

• 38:59Jocko Willink?

  "It is customary for the skipper to write a letter of condolence to the family of a Marine killed in action. After the skipper wrote a letter to the parents of one of our KIA's and the wife of another, I sat down to write one of my own. I had some color Polaroid photographs of the memorial service held for our two KIA's and thought the parents and wife would like to have them."

• 39:23Jocko Willink?

  Dear Mrs. Smith, and the Smith is just the fake name. Dear Mrs. Smith, enclosed are two photographs of the memorial service conducted by our battalion for your husband and another Marine recently killed in action. I know your grief is great at this time, but it may help to know that when your husband was killed, he was trying to help another Marine. He was among Marines from this company, providing support to an infantry company in a battle a few miles from here.

• 39:53Jocko Willink?

  When your husband was hit, he was reaching down from his LVT to try to pull a rifleman aboard. His LVT had gone in to try and rescue Marines.

• 40:05Jocko Willink?

  I thought that you would like to know this. Very sincerely, Jack W. Johnell, First Sergeant of Marines."

• 40:17Jocko Willink?

  And later he received this letter, which he published in the book. Dear First Sergeant Johnell, I have received your letter and pictures and I will be forever thankful. My husband was a hero, and he was a hero to his son.

• 40:33Jocko Willink?

  All I knew was that he was killed. I did not know how he died. Now I know.

• 40:39Jocko Willink?

  He was a hero and always will be to his son and I.

• 40:44Jocko Willink?

  God bless you.

• 40:59Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward 25 February 1968. I enter the company office and the skipper gives me the scoop. First, it will be the same as last night, 100% alert. No one sleeps. We will go to the wire at 1900 hours and come off at about 0700 tomorrow. So, one of the things that I, you know, I'm fast forwarding through a bunch of the book, but they're on a base, like a forward operating base, and they're expecting attack. And so, the enemy's outside the wire and they have to protect their small forward operating base. So, a lot of times, a lot of their duty, even when they're back in base, they're out there, you know, on the line, on the wire, on the perimeter, securing the perimeter.

• 41:44Jocko Willink?

  And it's long miserable nights, night after night. So, they're out there on this. Guess I'll go check the line and I start for the first hole. It was getting misty now. Going to get wet tonight. The Marines are awake and alert. Near bunker three, I meet the skipper. He's out checking the line also. It was at bunker three, we had two men wounded in December. Takes me about 45 minutes to check the line. On my way back to my bunker, I stop at the mess hall for a cup of coffee. The night cook, Corporal William E. Sterman, from Midland, Texas, looks up and greets me. "How many gallons of coffee have you made tonight?" I ask. "About 45 gallons," he replies. "That's a lot of coffee. How many last night?" "90 gallons. We may beat it tonight. It's early yet.

• 42:27Jocko Willink?

  We drink a lot of coffee to stay awake these nights. Marines come to the galley and get coffee all night. They fill their canteens and take it back for themselves and their buddy in the hole." Midnight, it starts to rain. 3 o'clock in the morning, I go check positions. "How's it going, Marine?" "Rough," replies the Marine, "but at least it stopped raining." "Good Marines. Work all day and stay up all night. Two, maybe three hours of sleep in the morning and all over again." How many nights will we do this for? Last time it was 10.

• 43:09Jocko Willink?

  That's the duty. And again, you know, I'm fast forwarding through a bunch of this stuff and he goes through some of the monotony of it, some of the fear of it, some of the stress of it. It's very, very heavy. And it's just day after day after day. And occasionally, you know, like they'll do that for 10 days and then they'll get a little bit of security or they'll get intel that, you know, the enemy's standing down. So they'll get a couple of good nights of sleep, but. And then on top of that, they're going out on patrol in the day. You know, it's interesting, um, you know, in Vietnam, the VC attacked at night and the VC owned the night is what they said, but, and the SEALs were one of the few groups that actively patrolled at night. They met the enemy where the enemy was.

• 43:53Jocko Willink?

  But these guys, they, they sit on base at night and secure their base. But then during the day, they're going out on patrols. Fast forward. 9 April, 1968. My gear was in the Jeep. I climbed aboard and told my driver to shove off. I was on my way. It had been 13 years since I left recon. I was looking forward to this assignment. Recon had grown in size over the years from a company to a battalion. I waved to the guard as we drove out the gate. Third Amtrak is a good outfit, I thought. But I'd always wanted to return to recon and now I was on my way. Last time I was a staff sergeant in a division recon company. Now I would be sergeant major

• 44:32Jocko Willink?

  of a recon battalion. So he's gotten promoted and he's moving from the track element that he was with. Now he's going to be with a recon battalion. Fast forward. I picked up my gear and walked towards my new hooch. It felt good to be back in recon, especially as a sergeant major.

• 44:52Jocko Willink?

  26 April, 1968. One of our reconnaissance patrols by the name of Rice Krispies. Had been hit about four o'clock in the morning by enemy mortar rocket fire. Their mission was completed and they were to be lifted out by helicopter at daylight. Seven enemy rounds hit them. The first one hit a rock directly in their position. One marine was killed. The radio operator, three were wounded, one seriously. We arrived at the hospital just as the medevac helicopter arrived. As it landed, a couple of corpsmen ran out with a stretcher. It was the KIA. The body wrapped in a rain poncho. We followed them into the receiving hut. The corpsman cut the binding and unwrapped the poncho.

• 45:37Jocko Willink?

  It was a young marine, probably no more than nineteen. He was covered with dirt and blood. And although he had been on patrol for five days, he had very few whiskers. Too young to grow a beard yet. He was hit in the back by shrapnel going through his pack and radio. The back of his head was bloody. Looks as if the one in the back of the head that killed him. I noticed the dead marine's first sergeant had entered. He is a short man, tough, and all Marine Corps. I sometimes think of him as a small bulldog, a fighter. I noticed the bulldog's eyes, they look a little misty. He came down to identify the body.

• 46:20Jocko Willink?

  One of the more unpleasant tasks of a first sergeant. It hurts the good ones especially. He was a good man. I remembered seeing the marine in the area. He looked different then. The corpsman took off the dead marine's identification tag. The body was pale, eyes open. It had been about five hours since he was hit. It's a little hard to take every time you see one of these wounded or dead Marines. It must be a fatherly reaction, or maybe I subconsciously think of them as my own sons. As they removed articles from the body, I noticed a small piece of cloth.

• 47:04Jocko Willink?

  About three by five inches. It was red and white with a small patch of blue in one corner. Dirty, with some blood on it. It was between his chest and camouflage jacket. A small American flag.

• 47:22Jocko Willink?

  He was a good Marine. And he thought enough of this flag to carry it on patrol with him. As it was taken from his young and now lifeless body, I could not help but think of the other young men alive, who burned or tried to burn our flag. The flag this young Marine died for.

• 47:45Jocko Willink?

  I am in no mood for flag burners today.

• 48:00Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward, 17 May 1968, patrol hit by lightning last night. One man died in the hospital. One man wounded by an enemy booby trap.

• 48:11Jocko Willink?

  19 May 1968, Ho Chi Minh Birthday. You know that, that lightning strike? Uh, there's more about these lightning strikes. Never, I never thought about that before in all my reading of Vietnam. Um, you know, you're out there with an antenna, you're out there with a metal antenna sticking up. There's lightning storms and it was not uncommon that guys would get hit and killed by lightning.

• 48:37Jocko Willink?

  And, and not only that, you're going to see a lot of this, like,

• 48:42Jocko Willink?

  when, when your environment is explosives, helicopters, machine guns, out, out in the wilderness, like, there's, there's a lot of violent ways and accidental ways to die. And you often don't think about that as much.

• 49:02Jocko Willink?

  22 May, 22 May 1968, one KIA reported and two wounded in action. Staff Sergeant Hughes killed with the first air calf. He told me what happened and he was right.

• 49:15Jocko Willink?

  So there's a couple Marines that get attached to, uh, the first air calf and Sergeant Hughes didn't feel good about it. Staff Sergeant Hughes didn't feel good about it.

• 49:24Jocko Willink?

  24 May 1968, Major Keating, our S3 officer, died of wounds. Our observers were with teams from the air cab to view their methods of operations in exchange of tactical ideas, especially recon inserts. So they had sent two guys with the air cab and they both end up getting killed. Memorial services, 26 May 1968, memorial services for Major Keating and Staff Sergeant Hughes, darn near cried.

• 49:54Jocko Willink?

  28 May 1968, team in trouble, one killed in action, four fell off a cliff.

• 50:02Jocko Willink?

  29 May 1968, tried to go out with a rescue team, rest of team brought in at 12:30.

• 50:10Jocko Willink?

  30 May 1968, went out to Hill 10 and back, patrol ran into trouble, one killed in action, one wounded in action. 30 May, 31 May 1968, two patrols in trouble, four wounded in action. And this is, again, these are small notes that he's taking, but at least you can look back and remember what happened on that day. And you can see what their days are like, day after day after day. It's absolutely brutal. Fast forward, 29 June 1968, two killed in action, one wounded in action from Company A. 3 July 1968, lost eight men, went down and copter shot down, all lost.

• 50:52Jocko Willink?

  4 July 1968, Lieutenant wounded in head today while on patrol. 5 July 1968, visited patients in hospital.

• 51:04Jocko Willink?

  7 July 1968, the chapel was almost filled when I entered. It would be crowded a day with Marines outside listening before the memorial was over. It was a rough one to take, eight men lost, all at one time, our largest single loss to date. One of our recon patrols was being inserted when their helicopter came under enemy fire. The helicopter had almost landed when Charlie opened up. The pilot radioed under fire, tried to take off, and as he did, the chopper was hit. The report from the escort aircraft said it went up in a ball of flame, fell to the ground and exploded.

• 51:42Jocko Willink?

  The pilot, co-pilot, pilot, two crewmen, and our eight men were killed. Our reaction force went in and brought out the bodies. The only man not burned was the pilot. He'd been blown out of the aircraft.

• 51:56Jocko Willink?

  I looked at the memorial program. They were all listed by faith. Latter-day Saints, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish.

• 52:11Jocko Willink?

  The bodies straightened as they sang the hymn and the wards became stronger at the end. As the hymn faded away, everyone came to attention as they heard the firing squad. Ready, aim, fire. Ready, aim, fire. As the saluting volley was fired, I noticed a young sergeant in front of me. His soldiers twitched it with every crack of the rifles.

• 52:34Jocko Willink?

  Ready, aim, fire. And then the sound of taps flowed through the air, through the chapel on the hill and across the fields. There's no sound more fitting for the military than taps, sad and yet beautiful.

• 52:49Jocko Willink?

  It can make the tears flow. There had been a tear or two in the eyes of those in the chapel. It is hard to keep that small, wet trail off the cheek. I know.

• 53:14Jocko Willink?

  14 July 1968, attended church services for two more KIA. 15 July 1968, two men lost on patrol, got separated.

• 53:26Jocko Willink?

  18 July 1968, put a sign up on the LZ named in honor of Major Keating. Keating Field, unofficial, but who will know the difference?

• 53:40Jocko Willink?

  Get to a point where you're kind of gonna do what you're gonna do out there.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:46Jocko Willink?

  You know, you have to, uh, I'll have to remind myself and talk to Leif about this, but like, there's some kind of protocol. Like when Mark was killed, we just renamed, you know, oh, this is now Camp Markley.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:59Jocko Willink?

  Like, there's some protocol to follow.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 54:02Jocko Willink?

  I do not think we did any of the protocol.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:06Jocko Willink?

  Um, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. You, you know, it's a weird thing.

• 54:12Jocko Willink?

  Like, what matters?

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:15Jocko Willink?

  You know, you lose eight guys, you lose Keating, you lose these, you're losing guys all the time. You know, these rules and regulations. We'll stick to the big ones, but some of this bullshit ain't happening.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:28Jocko Willink?

  We're doing what we're doing.

• 54:33Jocko Willink?

  Twenty-eight July nineteen sixty-eight, zero seven hundred had scare. H fifty-three helicopter exploded in air, fought twenty-five of our recon Marines were onboard. It was the wrong chopper, chopper. But all hands were lost. So this is after you lose eight guys, you know, you hear rumor that a helicopter went down with twenty-five guys onboard. It's a nightmare. Twenty-nine July nineteen sixty-eight, recon team shot out of a landing zone. Thirty July nineteen sixty-eight, killed in action. Last night was a Marine who took my photo on a patrol and he, this is part of the book that I didn't read, he goes on a patrol. And, you know, guy, they're out there in the field and a guy took his picture and that guy's killed in action.

• 55:22Jocko Willink?

  August, one August nineteen sixty-eight, OP on Hill two hundred overrun by NVA. Eleven wounded in action, five killed in action. Reaction Force Company E, three wounded in action by Booby Trap Patrol hit one KIA.

• 55:41Jocko Willink?

  So this is a brutal deployment.

• 55:47Jocko Willink?

  Six, August 1968, accidental discharge of a 45 on Hill 200, medevac with a man of little toe, with a man's tip of little toe shot off.

• 55:58Jocko Willink?

  So again, you got guys with, you know, a battalion worth of guys.

• 56:04Jocko Willink?

  Seven, August 1968. Went to the first hospital company, three Marines from Hill 425 brought in injured from 50 caliber machine gun exploding, all okay. Again, you're around freaking explosives. That's what a bullet is, a little explosive.

• 56:20Jocko Willink?

  Eleven, August 1968, one killed in action, one wounded in action from our own claymore, accident on Hill 425.

• 56:31Jocko Willink?

  How does that happen? There's a million ways that can happen. What, did the, did the claymore fall down? Right? You have the claymore aimed in one direction, it falls over, gets tripped over, whatever, now it's pointed the wrong way. Claymores are directional. You know the claymore minus?

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, front towards enemy.

• 56:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, front towards enemy. Bro, when I was a young kid, we, we blew claymores and, you know, our, our instructors, our cadre, we, what we did was not, I wouldn't, it's not safe, you shouldn't do it, but we would detonate those claymores like we would be a few feet from them. Like you'd be like in a, behind a tree or like in a little, in a little depression, you know, with like maybe a little rock outcropping, just clacking off claymores. Again, do not do this.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Cause it's too loud and the.

• 57:21Jocko Willink?

  It's too loud, it's dangerous. Like there's all kinds, there's all, a million reasons not to do it.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Overall, bad idea.

• 57:26Jocko Willink?

  Bad idea. But you can be very close to them and you know, the explosion, you're going to feel the back blast. I mean, you get your bell freaking rung. And again, this is stupid, don't do it, but that's what we did back then. Um, part of it was, you know, you, you know, we thought we were going to NOM.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  Hell yeah.

• 57:44Jocko Willink?

  Still think that. Still think that, you know, it was 1991.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:50Jocko Willink?

  But hey, you gotta know how close you can be to these things in case you gotta clack one off. Okay.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 57:55Jocko Willink?

  Now we know.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Let me ask you this about the claymore. By your estimation, how far if the front, right, straight up, front towards enemy, how? What kind of range does that have like what do you call lethal distance or whatever?

• 58:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the kill zone is probably like, I forget what the official kill zone is. But it's probably like 20 meters, maybe 25 meters or something like that.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Strong. It has stuff in it, right?

• 58:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's got like little ball bearings. Yeah. These are like, we had to know how many of those ball bearings there were.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  How many are there?

• 58:24Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I forgot. You know, this is.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Forgot.

• 58:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, forgot.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  But like, what, is it like 10, 20?

• 58:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, no, no. It's hundreds. Hundreds. Yeah, it's hundreds.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro, bro. I feel like that's gonna, that's gonna jam me up.

• 58:37Jocko Willink?

  They're like, they're like the size of, uh, you know, like a small ball bearing.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:41Jocko Willink?

  Not a tiny ball bearing.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  Not a BB.

• 58:43Jocko Willink?

  Bigger than a BB.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 58:47Jocko Willink?

  So that that kill zone, but there's all kinds of ways. Like, first of all, you know, someone could be planning it go off. It could fall down and now it blasts towards people. Someone, someone could set up in the wrong direction. That shit happens.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:58Jocko Willink?

  That's why it literally says front towards enemy.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:00Jocko Willink?

  But if you're a new guy and you're, you make a mistake, boom, you clock off a claymore and you wound your own guys.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Okay, or you're distracted or whatever. Bro, when you get, and I have a lot of respect for that notion right there. Where it was like front towards enemy and still people jam it up. I don't, I don't think that's stupid.

• 59:17Jocko Willink?

  You understand that it's written on there for a reason.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:19Jocko Willink?

  And it still can get overlooked.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, cuz shit be happening. So the, so every time I got surgery, right, they, um, they mark, they put an arrow on your arm, like in my, on my knee, on both my arms when I got. It's like they draw, just with a pen.

• 59:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  Before I go ahead, I was like, bro, what are you even doing? He was like, oh, well, that's to make sure that the doctor operates on the correct arm. But I'm like, bro, the chart, like you'd have a drawn out thing here with the, you know, it says right here, right? Distal, blah, blah, blah, the whole freaking jargon. And they're like, I'm just saying like this.

• 59:55Jocko Willink?

  There's a reason.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, this kind of stuff can happen like this, this, you know, hospitals are hectic, like just the whole thing. And it's like, it, it just helps assure that the job is done correctly. And so I asked, I was like, has that ever happened before? He just laughing, like, yeah, that happens before.

• 1:00:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Like, all right, cool, man. Hey, who am I? What am I gonna say?

• 1:00:13Jocko Willink?

  X on the other arm. Do not cut this arm, right?

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Ghostbusters. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, exactly. Right, bro? So who am I to say like, what?

• 1:00:20Jocko Willink?

  I'm being for real because putting an arrow to indicate like that's not as good because you could still like pull the other arm out. But you forget about the arrow, whatever. I put a freaking X on that thing. Not this arm. I would write in English. Not this arm, the other arm, please.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  So true.

• 1:00:39Jocko Willink?

  Um, 14 August, 1968, 1500 memorial service for KIA. 22 August, 1968, Hill 200 hit. One KIA, three wounded in action. Company E reaction force in at 0600, visited wounded in hospital, repelled out of helicopter with Company A. Surprised the hell out of the first sergeant.

• 1:01:03Jocko Willink?

  And I'm there, there's, I'm, you know, going, I'm fast forwarding through all kinds of good stuff here. Get this book. It's out of print. Get it. Get a copy of it.

• 1:01:17Jocko Willink?

  This was kind of an interesting series here. 12 October, 1968, monsoon rains all morning. 13 October, 1968, some rain, not much, behind on helicopter lifts. 14 October, 1968, monsoon rains all day, no copters flying. 15 October, 1968, rains most of the morning, but clear most of the afternoon. 16 October, 1968, monsoon rains, six inches in the morning, supposed to last for another 48 hours. Can't get patrols in or out by air, no copters. So that's when that monsoon season hits and it's just rain.

• 1:01:53Jocko Willink?

  18 October, back to rains, almost all day, not as heavy, couple teams, three days overdue. 1300, General Lemay for briefing on recon, plenty of security. It's always interesting when you connect these names. Uh, 19 October, 1968, got two patrols in three days overdue because of bad weather. Tired, wet and hungry. How'd you like to be out on patrol? You get extended three days in the field.

• 1:02:21Jocko Willink?

  20 October, 1968, memorial services for Marine killed by fire and burns. Marine was okay when the Colonel and I visited him at the hospital, was in spirits by the time we got back to the CP. Info the Marine had died.

• 1:02:42Jocko Willink?

  They have a nice spell, but I'm gonna fast forward. 7 November 1968, had first KIA since August. Sergeant from Force, almost blown in half by grenade.

• 1:02:54Jocko Willink?

  Went to ID the body at Med Battalion. The Sergeant had been killed, the Battalion Police NCO and wanted to be in the bush with our recon patrols. Why, I asked him, even though I knew the answer. I supported his request for reconnaissance duty. Hell, I remember how I felt during World War II. He came to see me before his first patrol. Got my transfer, Sergeant Major. Thanks for your help. Now he was dead. From his chest to his groin was a big hole.

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  10 November 1968, Marine Corps birthday, 193 years old. Ceremony, visited hospitals, visited hospital patients and brig. He's got people in the brig, goes and visits those guys. I wish he didn't talk about what they, who they were or what they did, but. 12 November 1968, bad accident. Grenade went off on LZ, killed two Marines, two in serious condition, five wounded with small, two with small cuts, wounds. Visited wounded in the hospital.

• 1:04:02Jocko Willink?

  In the Battalion, fast forward, 5 December 1968, in the Battalion area, the only the regulation cap was authorized. But when on patrol in the bush, recon Marines could wear almost anything on their heads. Most of the recon Marines liked the RVN jungle hat or berets. Several wore their Marine issued field cap, some starched. This is like one of the most classic pieces of Marine Corps Americana. Other types of headgear included. The pirate, a green or camouflaged cloth tied around the top of their head. Duck hunter, a small brimmed field hat, front down and back up.

• 1:04:44Jocko Willink?

  Collegiate, a small brimmed field hat turned up all around. Foreign aft, the brim of the jungle hat was turned up in front and back as favored by gunnery Sergeant TF Sparks.

• 1:04:58Jocko Willink?

  Aussie, a large brimmed Australian type bush hat with the side turned up. Sometimes the side was pinned up with a black Marine Corps emblem.

• 1:05:10Jocko Willink?

  Safari, a large brimmed Australian type bush hat with the brim turned down all around. This type was favored by Corporal W. D. Paul, his buddy Lance Corporal Gridunsky. Favored the duck hunter. Both Marines are members of Company B and just returned from the bush. The cowboy, the new jungle hat with the sides turned up and creased on the crown, a favorite. The beret, favored by Private First Class W. G. Burton of Company A. Sombrero, the new jungle hat with the brim turned up all around.

• 1:05:47Jocko Willink?

  Old core, the new jungle hat shaped like the Marine Corps campaign hat of yesteryear. My favorite.

• 1:05:58Jocko Willink?

  We, it's a bummer that we wear helmets now.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  You like that.

• 1:06:04Jocko Willink?

  I mean, yeah, I like that, but also I, I, when, when I went through BUDs, getting a floppy hat was like, you, you kind of, when I got a SEAL Team One and I got issued my floppy hat, I felt like I was in the Dave's, you know, like I felt like I was a NOM, right? Because before that, you're wearing this Reagan starch cover, like a baseball hat looking type thing. This eight-point cover, they called it, but then when you get your, your, your jungle hat, your boonie hat, your floppy hat, your bush hat.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  That's all the names for it?

• 1:06:38Jocko Willink?

  All of them, call it whatever you want.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  And the floppy hat, to be clear.

• 1:06:40Jocko Willink?

  Floppy hat.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  You, there's a picture of you, that's the one, it's like this, right? Like a, like, like Jesse Ventura did in Predator, you ever watch Predator?

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  But he went Australian style, because one side was up.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's Australian.

• 1:06:53Jocko Willink?

  That's when Australian style.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  I didn't know that one, but that's a floppy hat, though.

• 1:06:56Jocko Willink?

  That's a floppy hat, and I'd have to see it, because it looked like it is, that looked a little bit more like a... Uh cordial or like a little bit more official or more formal. Looked like a more formal the way I remember it. But a floppy hat, you know, or a bush hat or a boonie hat. Or a bucket hat, sometimes they call them. They call them all kinds of different things. But getting that back in the day was like for me. Cause I'd always seen the frogmen from Vietnam, the seals from Vietnam in the floppy hat. And so that was, you know, that was the deal. And then you did wear it with a little bit of, you know, you it has character. And how you wear it has character. And by the way, you ever seen like um.

• 1:07:39Jocko Willink?

  Uh a cartoon where like the person's, the the character's. Face or like hat kind of shows their expression. You know what I'm saying? So like, let's say you're wearing your your boonie hat and you're like, kinda in the game, you can like flip the front up and you're kinda paying attention. But then you could get tired, you can like pull the front down. If you're feeling cocky, maybe you put up go go like cowboy style, like you can, you can kinda like reflect your mood. Let your, let your guys know where you're at.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  With the floppy. Floppy hat allows that.

• 1:08:12Jocko Willink?

  But I still have the floppy hat that I got issued. As a new guy at SEAL Team One and I had it my whole career. And unfortunately, I never wore it. I'd never wore it in combat because we were wearing helmets. Like we, we switched to helmets, you know, right around when the war started.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  When in the floppy hat that you have, I know, oh, well, I know some of this because I have. I have some pictures of you wearing your floppy hat and you looked very pleased. With the whole scenario for sure.

• 1:08:41Jocko Willink?

  I thought I was, I thought I was in Nam.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Well, you weren't in the jungle though. The pictures I have, like you're. Where's that like Guam or something like this?

• 1:08:48Jocko Willink?

  I think, uh, well, it was either over in Southeast Asia. Kinda sounds like Nam, but I wasn't. I was in Guam or I was in Thailand or something. Or we also used to go do jungle training in South America. So that broke out that floppy hat and just getting rained on and just feeling like you were in Nam.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Yep, that's what the picture looks like, your face, uh, your facial expression.

• 1:09:08Jocko Willink?

  All the guys from Nam salute, man. Those guys are my heroes, you know, and. You know, even like now, you know, just having had the opportunity to talk with all these guys, the guys from SOG, the infantry guys, the Marine Corps grunts guns up. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:09:27Jocko Willink?

  Like these guys that wore and you know, me growing up always.

• 1:09:33Jocko Willink?

  That was kind of what I want. You know, I went through when I was younger, I was World War II, you know? But then when I got older, like, once I turned like thirteen, fourteen, nahm.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Jocko Willink?

  You know, nahm. Cause also they put out Apocalypse Now.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:47Jocko Willink?

  They put out Full Metal Jacket, they put out Platoon, all the, those anti-war movies that to me were just war, pro-war.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it did have a, have like, kind of like a vibe, Vietnam. The whole Vietnam thing, like with the, even like with the rock and roll stuff and the whole, you know, the whole thing.

• 1:10:07Jocko Willink?

  Just Creedence Clearwater Revival, let's go.

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  Did you know, I know, I told you this, the drummer for Creedence Clearwater Revival, it's named Doug Clifford, by the way. My family knows him, we know him.

• 1:10:18Jocko Willink?

  What?

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:19Jocko Willink?

  Bro.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 1:10:20Jocko Willink?

  We're first, we're just finding this out right now?

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro. And this out, cause my mom is a, is a real estate person on Kuaai. So, he, and this was like, was it in his heyday? You figure this was like nineties, like early nineties. And so he was a client of my mom's and she sold him a freaking house and stuff like that. And they kind of hit it off or whatever. He had kids that were our age too. And, oh yeah, we'd go to the house, freaking swimming in the pool, like the whole deal. Yeah, yeah, Doug Clifford. I didn't know, cause I didn't know Creedence, you know, like I'm a little kid. He's like, uh, my mom's like, yeah, yeah, he's a drummer of this Creedence Clearwater. My dad's like, oh yeah, he's like a famous person or whatever. I'm like, okay, cool. And they kind of look into it. I was like, oh yeah, it's cool, old school, you know, cause some classic rock scenario.

• 1:11:03Jocko Willink?

  Great band.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:05Jocko Willink?

  The, there was a cover band in my high school. That covered Creedence and they were called Creedence Clearwater Revival Revival.

• 1:11:15Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, let's go.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was and but I knew some of the songs that they did. I was like, oh, that's them. You know, that kind of what's the the I see the.

• 1:11:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Bad Moon Rising.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that one. But anyway, yeah, yeah, it was cool.

• 1:11:30Jocko Willink?

  That's all that. That's all the Vietnam vibe.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  That's the vibe.

• 1:11:34Jocko Willink?

  And and we, you know, we elevate it, you know, I in my mind. And then, you know, you what what these guys went through was just absolutely. I mean, look, it's I'm just in reading this guy's journal, which K I K I K I K I. It's it's as glorified as it was, you know, to a young kid in my head. But, you know, as you learn more about it, you realize these guys went, you know, went through such an atrocious combat. And, you know, now we reflect on it. And thank God, you know, I've had the opportunity. And I, you know, when you meet the the SEALs from Vietnam, when I got to Team One, perk in the day. It's like, these were these were these guys were my heroes, you know. So, um, wild.

• 1:12:18Jocko Willink?

  It's been so cool to learn so much more about Vietnam than I knew when I was younger.

• 1:12:28Jocko Willink?

  Here's an anonymous 24 December. Sounds like Christmas Eve, 1968. Also, if you remember, he showed up. This was a year tour, basically, back in those days in Vietnam. So he arrived just before Christmas, and he's getting towards the end of his tour. 'Twas the night before Christmas, and all through my bunker, my buddies were snoozing a less than sound slumber. Our stockings were hung to dry from the ceiling, and mosquitoes were biting the bites that were healing. And I, in fatigues and a pot on my head, was thinking of home and a warm cozy bed. Went out to my flank in a cut field of fire. I spotted some movement, first low and then higher.

• 1:13:11Jocko Willink?

  I started to stare, then remembered my training. Night vision is better when the eyes are not straining. As the object approached, I was glad that the sound was not like the scream of an incoming round. I gasped with surprise as the object grew nearer. The image of Santa grew clearer and clearer. Traditional suit and a beard flowing white, I shook Joe beside me to wish witness the sight.

• 1:13:41Jocko Willink?

  A man and his reindeer, a sleigh full of cheer, just as we remembered from Christmas last year. But spirits declined as he passed overhead. We hoped he would land, but he diddied instead.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 1:14:01Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Christmas 1968. And there's a great, I can't read the whole section, but there is a great section, chapter in this book, 25 December 1968, of him going out to deliver hot meals, you know, to all the different elements that are out in the field. Chowchuck arrived from the mess hall and we loaded it up, the chopper warmed up, the tailgate closed and we took off. First stop was Hill 200, a company, a platoon from Company B was on it. We headed for Hill 146, the Marines from Company E. Hill 146 is about the same size as Hill 200, except the area to land on is smaller. Hill 2425 was next, that would be Company D.

• 1:14:44Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't much larger than the last one, but at least the landing zone was down from the bunkers. Again, we passed out the packages. The chaplain spoke, we climbed aboard our birds and took off for Bay Nah, one mile in the air. It was cool up there, clouds all around, wonder if we'll be socked in. At times Ba- Bah Nah, Bay Nah is socked in, we can't get aircraft in for days. One time we had a platoon up there for 21 days before the weather cleared to fly in. Today the clouds were closing in, looks like we can make it. An open spot and the birds started in, we could see the Marines began to gather at the landing zone. As we unloaded, I got word from the pilot, low on gas, can't return for another takeoff. Besides, clouds are moving in. The chaplain cut his greeting short and we boarded the aircraft.

• 1:15:27Jocko Willink?

  We flew back to the lowlands to refuel at Hill 55. One more stop, Dong Den, if we can get in. Dong Den was manned by Company C Marines and looked like we might not get in, no sunshine there, too many clouds. An opening, we went in, nice try, we touched down and we were off again, we tried again. Marines below guided us in, over, a little more, down, hold it, okay, touchdown. We were on the ground, I realized how small a spot the LZ is, damn good pilot. This would be a fast stop. Unload, a few words, and we were off before the clouds closed in. We swooped down, fast, under the clouds, and then sunshine.

• 1:16:07Jocko Willink?

  "Made them all," I shouted. The pilot looked back and gave me a big grin and a thumbs up. Before we left RLZ, he said we would make them all, and we did.

• 1:16:18Jocko Willink?

  Back to the area and a Christmas meal, except for the patrols in the bush. I'm finished playing Santa Claus this year, but it did make a Christmas worthwhile. So it was Christmas in Vietnam, 1968.

• 1:16:37Jocko Willink?

  He ended up going home shortly after that. A little piece here from the epilogue. "It's been 20 years since these stories were first written. Some are fresh in my mind as the day they happened, while others are less remembered. Each is a reminder, a reminiscence of Vietnam 1968. Sometimes I still see the body of the young Marine sergeant, who's almost blown in half by an enemy grenade, and Staff Sergeant Hughes telling me, 'They're gonna get us killed, Sergeant Major.' Many names and faces have been forgotten over the years. After three wars and 12 campaigns and over 33 years of military service, I was retired from the Marine Corps on 1 May 1978. At the time, I was Sergeant Major of the Fleet Marine Force Atlantic Norfolk, Virginia.

• 1:17:23Jocko Willink?

  The formal ceremony for my relief and retirement was held on 26 April 1978. 10 years from the date, I noticed a small piece of blood-stained cloth being taken from the dead body of a young recon Marine."

• 1:17:43Jocko Willink?

  And I want to close out the reading that I'm gonna do from this book, from something that Sergeant Major Johnell included in his book, and it's actually something that he didn't write. This was something that was published in something called Sea Tiger, which was a weekly newspaper published by the Marine Amphibious Force during the Vietnam War from 1965 to 1971. So, this is 2 August 1968. The following letter was written by Marine Lance Corporal Donald E. Griss, Company A, 5th Shore Party Battalion, and printed in the Sea Tiger.

• 1:18:21Jocko Willink?

  And here it is, quote, "Just imagine, most of the guys over here are 18 and fighting to make it to 19. The average age of the combat soldier in many units here is 18 and a half, and what a man he is. A pink-cheeked, tussle-haired, tight-muscled fellow who, under normal circumstances, would be considered by society as half-man and half-boy, not yet dry behind the airs, and a pain in the unemployment chart. But here and now, he is the beardless hope of free man. He is, for the most part, unmarried and without material possessions, except possibly for an old car at home and a transistor radio

• 1:19:05Jocko Willink?

  here. He listens to rock and roll and 105mm howitzers. He's just out of school, received so-so grades, played a little football, and had a girl who promised to be true. He has learned to drink beer because it is cold and it is the thing to do. He is a private first-class, a non-year veteran with one or possibly three years to go. He never cared for work, preferred waxing his own car to washing his father's, but now, he is working or fighting from dawn to dark even longer. He can dig a foxhole, apply first aid to

• 1:19:48Jocko Willink?

  a wounded companion, march until he is told to stop or stop until he is told to march. He has stood among hills of bodies and he has helped to build those hills. He has wept in private and in public and has not been ashamed of doing either, because his pals have fallen in battle and he has come close to joining them. He has become self-sufficient. He has two pairs of fatigues, washes one and wears the other. He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but not his rifle."

• 1:20:23Jocko Willink?

  He keeps his socks dry and his canteens full. He can cook his own meals, fix his rips, material or mental. He will share his water with you if you are thirsty, break his rations in half if you are hungry, and split his ammunition if you are fighting for your life. He can do the work of two civilians, draw half the pay of one, and yet find ironic humor in it all.

• 1:20:51Jocko Willink?

  He has learned to use his hands as a weapon, and his weapon as his hands. He can save a life, or most assuredly, take one. He is now nineteen, a veteran, and fighting to make it to twenty.

• 1:21:08Jocko Willink?

  What a man.

• 1:21:13Jocko Willink?

  There you go. What a man indeed.

• 1:21:19Jocko Willink?

  Out there, um, living like that, dying like that. And that's what, uh, that's what men can do.

• 1:21:32Jocko Willink?

  That's what we can, uh, make ourselves. You know, there's one more thing that I found, um, from Jack Johnel that he wrote in, on Memorial Day of 2003. And he, this is a, a little bit of an expanded version. You know, he mentioned that there was a sergeant that had asked him if he could go in the field. And, you know, he says, "Why do you want to go in the field?" And he already knew the answer, but he asked him, you know, he wanted to be with his boys. He wanted to be, he wanted to serve. And, uh, he wrote a little bit more of a detailed account of that. And he published it on Memorial Day, like I said, in 2003. And it says, quote, "During my service in Vietnam, I was sergeant major of the first reconnaissance battalion, first marine division. There was a young sergeant in our battalion who was the battalion police sergeant.

• 1:22:17Jocko Willink?

  The battalion police sergeant was responsible for the cleanliness of the battalion area other than what each company was responsible for." It was a duty he did not care for. Often during the day, he would greet me with a cheerful "Hi Sergeant Major", and sometimes we would have a brief conversation. One day, he told me that he wanted to go to the bush on patrol, and asked if I would help him. I told him he had a good deal, and he should take advantage of it. Besides, he was a good police sergeant. However, I remember how I felt during World War II, and wanted to get into the action, and said I would help him if that's what he really wanted. I informed the battalion adjutant

• 1:23:00Jocko Willink?

  that I was in favor of the sergeant's return to his company. Besides, there were some Marines that would like to stay out of the bush for a while.

• 1:23:09Jocko Willink?

  A few days later, the sergeant knocked on the door of my hooch, a wood frame with a tent over it, and I told him to enter. He wanted to tell me he was back with his company and was going on his first patrol. "I want to thank you Sergeant Major for helping me get back to my company." We had a few more words, and just before he left, he turned and said, "Thank you Sergeant Major."

• 1:23:38Jocko Willink?

  The next time I saw that young sergeant was at the first medical battalion hospital, Graves Registration. He was on stretcher, dirty, pale, and bloody.

• 1:23:50Jocko Willink?

  There was a large hole from the top of his chest to his groin, as if a giant spoon had scooped out his insides. As I looked at his bloody body, I remembered his last words to me.

• 1:24:03Jocko Willink?

  "Thank you Sergeant Major."

• 1:24:06Jocko Willink?

  Today, I remember the words of that young sergeant.

• 1:24:13Jocko Willink?

  End quote.

• 1:24:20Jocko Willink?

  And Jack Johnell died eight April 2012.

• 1:24:27Jocko Willink?

  But he thankfully left us these memories and left us these lessons. And let's make sure that we all remember

• 1:24:38Jocko Willink?

  these sacrifices

• 1:24:42Jocko Willink?

  that have been made.

• 1:24:45Jocko Willink?

  And the opportunities that we have.

• 1:24:52Jocko Willink?

  And that's um.

• 1:24:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:03Jocko Willink?

  How about some, how about some decompression echo Charles? What do you got for me?

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:25:07Jocko Willink?

  Can you help me out over here?

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Yeah, it uh so it's kind of

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  evaluating this whole situation and it kind of I keep getting reminded from with what you said in the beginning, like where just take notes of or journal and you know, like, take notes of these things that happen, you know, and it kind of if you apply it to this, right, where it's like, especially that end part and actually kind of throughout the whole thing. If he didn't do this, a lot of this guy, like this last guy, like all these guys is just not even a memory. Just sort of just came and went and you know, kind of nothing, you know? Like, man, it's like that applies to kind of everything that kind of goes on over time, you know?

• 1:25:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you've really got to help your memory out. You got to record stuff and you're going to learn some so much from it. It's going to make your life more valuable. It's going to help other people.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  There was a, this is kind of random, but it's not. The movie Seven, you ever watched the movie Seven? Yeah, you got to watch. So great, by the way, but he was like, they were driving in the car, some scene, some transitional type scene. And they were like, hey, have you ever shot your weapon in, you know, in the line of duty or whatever? And he was like, oh, I only drew it once or whatever. And he goes, what about you? He's like, um, I Drew it once, shot it once, and he starts kinda telling the story. And he was like, the guy that was with him or whatever, he's like, he got hit. And it's like, you could tell he was really trying to remember, like, remember the incident, you know? He's like, man, it spun him like a top. And he was like, what the hell was that guy's name?

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  And he was like, you could tell he was really like turmoil by it. And I remember thinking like, that's a random scene, you know? But it's kinda like, oh, maybe it was that, or may, you know? Maybe that scene was meant to have more depth than maybe I interpreted it at the time, you know?

• 1:27:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like your memory, you lose things.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, even those heavy things, you know? And then it's like, yeah, he's trying to remember that guy's name. Cause it's like significant, you know, like that dude, he went in first, took the hit, you know, kinda thing? It's like, I don't even remember his name, kind of a thing, you know? Weird.

• 1:27:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you gotta, you gotta know, you gotta take notes on what's happening. You know what's a nice thing is voice recording, like voice memo? Man, it's so much easier. And by the way, nowadays with uh, voice to text, right? You can just like, talk about what you did on this day, boom, put it out, put out the word. You know, you'll be able to look back. And look, there's a decent chance that 90% of it is like, either you remembered it anyways, or it doesn't really matter. But man, 10% of that stuff?

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  It's pretty legit. So my dad used to do that oddly. He'd have a tape recorder, like for real tapes, tape recorder. And I remember, me and my brothers will tease each other from time to time. But, like, you know, before bed, or when we all just happened to be laying around or whatever, you know, this is like the 80s, so. It's like, you're just laying, no one's on their phone or nothing. But um, and he'd just be like blabbing to us, you know, like, what's this, you know, you know? And I think it was my brother. He told a story about, we used to catch toads, little toads and stuff. And when you'd see a mouse, because mice and toads are way different in many ways, obviously. But in this way where it's hard to catch a mouse, it's easy to catch a toad, right?

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  So, we lifted up this board, or he lifted up this board and, because he saw a mouse go under there. So he was like, he lifted up, and he's telling this story as like a, literally like a six-year-old kid. And we're listening to it as like, kind of, young adults, you know? So it's like, wow, that's, it's crazy how this thing happened in this detail. And this is all captured right there in this little old school, you know, those orange cassette tapes? I don't know if you remember, they're like, orange, anyway. So he's like, yeah, I lifted up the, the board real quick and I reached for the mouse, but I didn't grab the mouse, because it escaped. And I just grabbed the toad, because when you lift up a board, there's toads under there too, you know? So he just was telling the story about how he was trying to catch this freaking mouse, which is impossible.

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  And he grabbed the toad. So we still tease each other about, I was like, you know, you just grabbed it. Because he said it in a certain tone as a little kid, it's the whole thing. But yeah, it's like, and then, man, you can kind of make your mind go deep inadvertently, because it's like, man, that's such, that was an actual time that happened, decades ago. An actual time, this person said these actual words, you know? And you were there, you know, kind of a thing. Otherwise, and it would otherwise be just completely gone.

• 1:29:48Jocko Willink?

  Things were lost, yeah.

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  Just gone.

• 1:29:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, don't let that happen, man. Write them down?

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  I'm writing them down.

• 1:29:56Jocko Willink?

  Write them down, that's what we're doing. Speaking of decompression.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:30:01Jocko Willink?

  What other things can we do to decompress?

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  Well, you know, maybe some zhuji, maybe some lifting.

• 1:30:06Jocko Willink?

  Good training today?

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Good training today, it was, it was, it was good training. Look, sometimes you're the hammer, sometimes you're the nail, I understand.

• 1:30:14Jocko Willink?

  One of those days, huh?

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  It's funny because you never say that phrase, you don't ever use that expression. Sometimes you're the hammer, sometimes you're the nail, when you're the hammer, you never say it. It'd be weird to you anyway, but nonetheless, it is funny. So, let's just say, you heard me say it. I'm here to tell you, sometimes you're the hammer, sometimes you're the nail. But, a good session, overall, you know, because, I mean, let's face it, you know, I trained very sporadically, you know, over the past year or so, whatever, and... Through that, actually, last time we trained was pretty solid too with everybody. But um, it was like, you know, you get the opportunity to train with these guys really good. Like Kynan and all, you know, these guys. So, yeah, I mean, it was somewhat of an inoculation for sure, a little, a little something.

• 1:31:00Jocko Willink?

  What do you mean inoculation?

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Did I use that wrong?

• 1:31:03Jocko Willink?

  What are you trying to, yeah, doesn't really make sense.

• 1:31:04Speaker 01

  Like to shock the system to get you back used to it.

• 1:31:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I guess, I don't think that's a true inoculation. Maybe like an indoctrination. Bro, the funniest thing was when you got done training with Kynan, you sat against the wall and like you had a look on your face. That was so funny. And I said, how you doing? Cause you did not look like you were doing good.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  No, here's the, you want to know the kind of a little backstory? So I'm sitting with Jeff Glover on the side, right? And I did, I did three rounds, right? And, and we're, usually we do five and for some reason, when you're so used to over the years doing five rounds, now it's six minutes, five minutes, now it's six minutes. That extra minute is like, it kind of can creep up on you. So anyway, I'm after the three rounds, um, I'm like, all right, I'm, and I was like, probably gotta, I gotta take a rest around, you know? Which I didn't feel too bad because there was other guys doing it too. So I'm like, cool, but I'm sitting next to Jeff Glover and we're, you know, we're talking or whatever. And then Kynan, Kynan, sorry, is, um, he was kind of coaching some people, you know,

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  and, and he looked like, it looked like he maybe would have done the round, you know, but no one, you know, wanted to try. So he was, he was helping out, you know, coaching or whatever. So about halfway through the round, I'm like, ah, let me, let me get some reps with him, just lighthearted, finish out the round, no big deal, kind of a thing. So I tell, I expressed this to Jeff Glover, he's like, he's like, yeah, bro, do it, do it. I'm like, cool. And I'm thinking in my head.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Even if I'm just getting straight up body slammed against the freaking concrete, at least it's only for three minutes. You see what I'm saying? It's not the full thing. That was part of the thought process. So I go, I ask him, hey, coach, you know, like, you want to finish the round? He's like, no, no, no, you rest, we'll get the next one. So I'm like, cool. But, you know, I got to rest. So I'm like, whatever. But it was like a thing. So I go back to Jeff and he's just laughing because, you know, we had the conversation before. And then, yeah, then you saw, you know, we got some trained. Let's just say I learned, you know, we learned some good stuff. And actually, to be honest, like, you could tell, especially after the first little bit, he was like, okay, like, he was not like trying to kill me, even though he almost did. But you could tell he was like, kind of letting me work a little bit, at least.

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  So, which is the mark of a true professional. Yeah, exactly.

• 1:33:27Jocko Willink?

  It's always good, man.

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  Good training, good training, for sure.

• 1:33:30Jocko Willink?

  And that is a good way to, you know, like, we got done training, you know, just like happiness. You know, what's that like?

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  Euphoria?

• 1:33:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, euphoria, euphoria going on. So that's what we're doing with training. When we got done training, I had a hydrate. I had a milk, a cookie, a milk protein cookie, and I had a vanilla ready to drink. And then I cracked open a go because I'm going to be tired. And that's, that was my immediate, like, fuel.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Post-training.

• 1:34:07Jocko Willink?

  Post-training. And by the way, I had a hydrate during training, and also, I had a go prior to training. So I'm kind of just Jaco fueled up to the gills right now. But that's what you need, man. You need good fuel. Hey, check out JacoFuel.com. Get yourself some good fuel. Get yourself some protein, ready to drink protein. Get yourself energy, clean energy. Like, it's nice that you can, you can have an energy drink and you don't, like, sometimes if you take the wrong kind of energy drink for jiu-jitsu, you're going to die. Like, you're going to freak, you're going to, your heart's going through the roof, it's total chaos, it's crashing, you fall apart, it's a disaster. Jaco Fuel Go is just as good as it's gonna get. The hydrate, same thing.

• 1:34:49Jocko Willink?

  Like, just the perfect hydration and then get done with a little recovery, hit that protein. Not to mention Joint Warfare, I believe, is why I'm sitting here right now. Just getting after it. Joint Warfare, super cool. Check out JacoFuel.com. You can, you can get it at JacoFuel.com. We're also in like retailers all over the country. So, you go into your grocery store, you go into your, uh, your supplement store, you go into your local gym, you go into your grocery store, you should have Jaco Fuel there. If you, if you don't have it in there, ask them. We can get it your way, but we want you to have the clean fuel. Jaco Fuel, check it out. Also, we're training in a full Origin getup.

• 1:35:31Jocko Willink?

  By the way, we're training Nogi today and I was wearing a Nogi rash guard from Origin USA. I was wearing Nogi shorts from Origin USA. The best, the most comfortable. Tot- totally good to go and made a hundred percent America.

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  I saw you, uh, noticed my rash guard today.

• 1:35:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, you did have that custom rash.

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  Kind of representing, that's that origin.

• 1:35:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the thing is, Origin can make some custom rash guards. So if you are interested in that, you can check it out. You know, if you have, if you have an academy and you don't want to have, uh, communist rash guards, you can get Freedom rash guards. You know what I'm saying? And on top of that, jeans, boots, t-shirts, hoodies, anything that you need, jackets, just everything that you need. OriginUSA.com made a hundred percent America. We are rebuilding the manufacturing in this country. Go to OriginUSA.com and get some.

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  It's true. Also, JacoStore.com. This one equals freedom apparel and merch. Um, it's not, it's not, it's not the, like a, like a giveaway quality, like this one was, this one.

• 1:36:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh, hell no.

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  What I'm wearing right now, this one equals freedom, black on black.

• 1:36:44Jocko Willink?

  Dude, when you get a giveaway shirt.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no one's wearing that stuff. Nobody's wearing that stuff. Yeah, exactly right. But yeah, this quality is for real stuff, apparel. See what I'm saying? But anyway, yes, black on black. Do you know how we did this? It's not some special process, but it was still deliberate. See what I'm saying? Cause usually you can't see the stuff when it's black on black. See what I'm saying? But the black is almost has like a little bit of a shine to it. Little bit.

• 1:37:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:09Speaker 01

  Not gaudy or tawdry.

• 1:37:11Jocko Willink?

  Not a, not, not a gold plated.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that one. But it's, it's black on black. It's good. So, um, one of the reasons, and people tell me this all the time too, and I did this on purpose. One of the reasons is because sometimes, let's say I go to, it's, it's a special night. I take my wife, maybe the kids, whatever, out to like a nice steak dinner, you know? But I want to go kind of casual, but kind of slick. You see what I'm saying? I'm probably, probably not going to use the big get after it shirt. You see what I'm saying? At the nice steakhouse. I mean, you can, don't get it wrong. Do not get it wrong.

• 1:37:49Jocko Willink?

  I have.

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  There you go. But if you're a little bit concerned about your look, you see what I'm saying? You wear the black on black. Doing, you're not doing too much with that, you know, that thing. Not too little either though. See what I'm saying? So you still can represent and look, you know, stylish as well. Anyway, it's a thing and it's, you know, this is of these things, these ideas and concepts are available to you. As far as apparel goes on jocko store.com. There's other stuff on there too, by the way. Got some shorts on there, by the way. Oh yeah. Hoodies, all kinds of stuff. Anyway, also the shirt locker subscription scenario. You already know.

• 1:38:25Jocko Willink?

  You're saying it anyways.

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  People seem to like it. It's a new design every month. It's a good one. A little bit outside the box, more creative fun, you know? It's a good one. All, it's all on jocko store.com.

• 1:38:37Jocko Willink?

  Also check out some books. Put your loves legs on by Rob Jones, Dave Burke. Need to lead? Check that out. I've written a bunch of books. You can check those out as well. If you need leadership inside your organization, go to echelonfront.com. If you need leadership for yourself, you can go to echelonfront.com or you can go to extremeownership.com. And we can train you on the skills of leadership. That's what we do. So check those out. Also, if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help the Gold Star families. Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to americasmightywarriors.org. Also check out heroesandhorses.org and Jimmy May's organization, beyondthebrotherhood.org.

• 1:39:25Jocko Willink?

  If you want to connect with us, check out Jaco.com and then on social media, I'm at Jaco Willink, Echo's at Echo Charles. Just be careful because there's an algorithm on there and it's disgusting. It'll trap you without you knowing it. It's like Sun Tzu. It'll, you won't know that it trapped you, but it did. So pay attention. Also, thanks to all Americans past and present who put on the uniform to go and fight. Especially those overseas right now in the Middle East in harm's way. We thank you for your service and sacrifice. And as I mentioned, our veterans that

• 1:40:04Jocko Willink?

  served in World War II in Korea and Vietnam, World War I, all those sacrifices that were made for us. And we thank you all. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for your service here on the home front. And everyone else out there, just remember that, that young Marine and that letter.

• 1:40:36Jocko Willink?

  Try and be like him. Tight muscled, working from dawn till dark, often longer. He can dig a foxhole, apply first aid, march until he's told to stop, or stop until he's told to march. Self-sufficient. He can do the work of two with less pay and find ironic humor in it all.

• 1:41:00Jocko Willink?

  And he's fighting. He's fighting to make it to age 20.

• 1:41:08Jocko Willink?

  And he's not going to stop. So be like him and don't stop fighting.

• 1:41:16Jocko Willink?

  And that's all I've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco.