Curiosity Is A Superpower: Legendary Film Producer Brian Grazer on Beginner’s Mind, Getting It Done, & Why Conversation Matters

There is nothing more powerful than a story well told. Woven into the very fabric of what makes us human, story fuels connection. It fosters empathy. And it holds the power to impact not just the individual but humanity at large. Few understand this better than Brian Grazer—a man devoted to the idea that when curiosity and conversation combine, great art is made. One of Hollywood’s most prolific film producers, Brian and his Imagine Entertainment partner Ron Howard are responsible for a litany of critically acclaimed, box-office hit films and television shows including Apollo 13, 8 Mile, Splash, Arrested Development, The Beatles: Eight Days a Week, and many more. His productions have been honored with numerous awards including an astounding 10 Oscar wins, 50 Emmys, and 11 Golden Globes. Today we explore Brian's unique approach to storytelling, why he believes questions are more important than answers, and why curiosity has been the “superpower” that fueled his rise as one of Hollywood’s leading producers and visionaries. Curiosity is so central to Brian’s success in fact that he wrote a book about it entitled, A Curious Mind, which he has recently expanded upon in a newly released version. It was a thrill to sit down with a man that I deeply respect and admire. This conversation left me with a newfound appreciation of curiosity not only as an art form, but as a powerful driver of human happiness. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Seed: Seed.com/RICHROLL Squarespace: Squarespace.com/RICHROLL Indeed: Indeed.com/RICHROLL Momentous: LiveMomentous.com/RICHROLL On: On.com/RICHROLL Birch: BirchLiving.com/RICHROLL Inside Tracker: InsideTracker.com/RICHROLL Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  It's pretty hard to teach curiosity. I think you have to have a little bit of that engine within your genetic template. But if you can recognize it in yourself, you can then build upon it.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  Ladies and gentlemen, Brian Grazer. One of Time Magazine's 100 most influential people in the world. We're responsible for some of Hollywood's most memorable movies.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  I'm in a minute.

• 1:27Speaker 03

  From Bud Light. Have your wine!

• 1:33Rich Roll?

  Say again, please. Houston, we have a problem. How have you been able to consistently, you know, create mass media, box office successes, movies that are beloved, that kind of withstand the test of time?

• 1:46Speaker 01

  The beauty of storytelling in a cinematic and sonic form, it can really be therapeutic. If I can have movies take people on journeys or adventures to get them to that state of mind, feeling that we're grounded by faith. It's not religion, it's just faith. You know, it's all those things just about one-on-one human connection.

• 2:13Rich Roll?

  Super nice to meet you. Thank you for doing this.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. I'm thrilled to be on.

• 2:16Rich Roll?

  I've, of course, like many, followed your career for a very long time, been a fan of the work that you do. And I wanted to say right up front that I used to, many, many years ago, I would see you in Malibu, like down at Cross Creek, like hanging out. It was when my kids were little and I was down there a lot, like at the playground down there. And you would always be around. You were surfing and chatting with people. And I often thought to myself, like, I would really like to meet that guy. Like, he's such an interesting person. He's so successful in what he does and he just seems to be, like you have a compelling presence. And I never was able to muster up the gumption to just come up and talk to you. Here we are many, many years later. Thank you.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I'm psyched to do this. Yeah, I'm actually very approachable.

• 3:05Rich Roll?

  I gather, yeah.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I love people. I mean, I love listening to their story. I should have my own podcast, but I just never did it.

• 3:15Rich Roll?

  Well, you kind of have been. You just weren't recording.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 3:19Rich Roll?

  For the last 50 years, you have been engaging people in these curiosity conversations, this practice that you developed as a very young person, where you were reaching out to interesting people with no agenda other than to learn from them. And the podcast is really just a more structured, formal version of that. And, you know, I can't tell you, as I just told you a moment ago, I've been doing this for 11 years. And it's almost impossible for me to calculate or put words to the extent to which it has not just expanded my life, but nourished it in ways that I couldn't,

• 3:57Rich Roll?

  I can't imagine not having done it. Like, it's been so, it's been so nourishing and has changed me in ways. People say, well, who is the most important, you know, what guest? It's just, it's the, it's the overall, like, macro experience of having done it and being engaged in the process of doing it.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  I feel exactly the same way. And as you pointed out, I've been doing it for, well, when I got out of college. So it's, I asked myself this rhetorical question of...

• 4:28Speaker 01

  What did I learn at USC? You probably saw that. And I thought, not very much.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  And then I started to reflect on what did I learn? And who did I learn that from? And then I tracked down the professor that really made a difference in my life. I mean, actually stuck out and developed an awkward conversation with him during the summer after I graduated. And I thought, wow, I learned more from Dr. Milton Walpin in that one hour than I did in an entire year in his class, which I actually rather enjoyed and I learned a lot. But this one, there's just this one hour was immeasurably better. And I thought, oh, I can do this my whole life. And like you, I don't know what it'd be like to not have this curiosity and to exercise

• 5:22Speaker 01

  that discipline because it's really fortifying. And it gives anyone that does it with sincerity, a competitive advantage in life and in their businesses. So you don't really have to compete. Like, I never really competed with other producers. I would admire some and maybe less on some others. But basically, I was never really, I was only competed, only competed on my own standard. And the standard would constantly be iterating and growing because I was always meeting these new people. That had new and unique accomplishments.

• 6:06Rich Roll?

  Your grandmother told you very early that you were a curious person. And despite your struggles in school, which you later, you know, realized was, was, was the result of dyslexia. She instilled in you a recognition of kind of some level of just bred in curiosity that was baked into who you are. But obviously that stuck with you and you then make the choice to really cultivate that. So when you talk about curiosity, like, what does that mean specifically? And yes, we can all practice it, but you know, people are kind of brought into the world with varying degrees of a natural inclination towards it.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with you. It's pretty hard to. Teach curiosity. I think you have to have a little bit of that engine within your genetic template or in yourself. But if you can recognize it in yourself, even if it's modest, you can then build upon it just by like any kind of exercise. Instead of going to the gym, you're doing this other exercise. That exercise is doing a little bit of homework on who or what subject interests you. And then doing a lot of work to find that person

• 7:33Speaker 01

  and a lot of grovelling. I found, you know, it was constantly, you know, letter upon letter or email upon email and a lot of, you know, sort of gritty stuff like begging. You know, you're kind of begging assistants to tell their boss, who's probably another assistant, why you should talk to Brian Grazer.

• 7:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  And that was, of course, in the early stage of my career. But you're still always doing it because you're taking people off their daily agenda. You know, for me to drive out here to Agoura Hills, it takes me off my conventional agenda. But what I read about you was something, I hadn't heard your podcast, but I read about it and I was really interested in meeting you. I didn't know that we knew each other or past each other in Malibu, which I think is kind of interesting and funny.

• 8:29Rich Roll?

  The approach or kind of philosophy that I've adopted and tried to hone in this podcast is to, and it speaks to kind of your philosophy of pursuing curiosity through these conversations is to, I mean, first of all, there's obviously a value proposition in you coming here. You have a book out and we're, you know, there's a symbiotic kind of relationship happening here. And there's a formal structure to what we're doing and it's going to be shared publicly. So maybe that that filter is kind of the way in which we communicate. But at the same time, I always enter into these trying to be as prepared as possible, but then to let go of that preparation and just be present with the person so that I can

• 9:11Rich Roll?

  allow it to be whatever it wants to be and to not be motivated by any kind of agenda or attachment to a notion in my mind of what I want it to be. And I think beneath that is this belief that I have that the most important thing when I sit down to do this is to try to find a way to create emotional connection and trust that whatever the guest has to impart from an intellectual perspective or whatever might be helpful to the audience will come as a result of that. But if I front load it with trying to extract information without being able to figure out how to connect with the person, that's backwards.

• 9:53Rich Roll?

  And I get the sense that that's sort of the way that you approach all of these interactions that you have.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  It is. It's so interesting that you're such a great student of that because it took me a while. I knew I was doing it, but I didn't know that's what I was doing.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  I would just be naturally drawn into somebody's soul, basically. And I would do research on architecture to meet Rem Coolhouse or to meet Dr. Jonas Salk, the creator of the polio vaccine, or even prepare for Princess Di, who I, you know, ended up sharing a bowl of ice cream with.

• 10:38Rich Roll?

  Breaking protocol in the process.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you have to, like, you know, you, yeah, you have to break protocol in order to, ultimately, I think you have to be kind of unprotected, unedited when you talk to people.

• 10:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, a real person.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  A real person, yeah, a real person.

• 11:01Rich Roll?

  Which I suspect in, again, going back to what makes this town rather unique or maybe a little bit different than other than other places is that this town, and especially in the industry, you know, in which you've been successful, is driven almost entirely on transactional friendships or transactional relationships.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it definitely is.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny. I was talking to someone the other day. And that was a famous person, actor in show business. And I've been in this, the Hollywood world for, what, 35 years? But I never feel like, I've never felt like anyone screwed me ever. Which is kind of unusual.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  You know, because people, I don't know what kind of language you use on the show, but... You can say whatever you want. Okay, so, it's just, you know, there are people that go, "That guy fucked me," or "I'm gonna fuck that person." I don't have, I don't know if you have this ether, but I don't really have that revenge gene either. I don't... And I'm not better than all these things, I just don't have it. I don't, um... I can get angry about subjects and things and work and process and peoples, if they're lazy. But I've never really felt like anyone like screwed me over or fucked me, you know?

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Probably anytime something didn't go exactly the way I wanted it to go, I reflect upon it and I, it was usually somewhere my fault, I think. You know, that I, you know, because you, you have to be pretty precise when you communicate in our business. You can, I've found that you can often, you can say the wrong thing, but you really have to be grounded with the right intention. And people have a sonar for that. For, is, does this person have the right intention? Are they speaking from an authentic place or a truthful place? And they, people really know it. Even if they don't know it, you know?

• 13:19Speaker 01

  They just go like, "I don't know, I just didn't feel comfortable," or... Again, it's, sometimes it's beyond verbal. You just feel something.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  So I think you want to get yourself together. We all want to get ourselves together on that. Like knowing our inner truth and trying to always show that. And if you're well-read at the same time, then you're gonna be either a good interviewer, or a good interviewee, or a good person to say hello, say hi to in the elevator and have that turn into something, or waiting in the bathroom line at a restaurant.

• 13:58Rich Roll?

  I mean, there's a certain level of self-confidence that's required, or at least a understanding of who you are to be comfortable with who you are, to bring that into the experience. And, you know, this is a lot about what you talk about in the Face to Facebook, and now also in the expanded version of A Curious Mind, this idea of, you know, being real. Like, in Hollywood, you're gonna go into a meeting, people are gonna be defensive already. What does this person want from me? You know, their job is to say no most of the time. And how do you get a yes? Well, you get a yes through deploying some kind of strategy. And there's nothing real about any of that, right? That's completely at cross purposes

• 14:42Rich Roll?

  with being present and making eye contact and trying to, you know, really understand the person who's sitting across from you, liberated from the results of whatever the conversation might yield.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  I always, you know, because if you're talking about,

• 15:04Speaker 01

  we're talking about Hollywood and getting yeses and what that's all about. I always found that if my mission within a subject is something that has, is a theme that is universal, and undeniably universal. So for example, I've produced...

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Apollo 13. And that is about many things. It's about this journey into space. It's about training, how hard you have to train to be an astronaut. But it's also about, it's about a brotherhood between these astronauts. They wouldn't have survived it. This brotherhood between them wasn't working. You know, the roles played by, you know, in Apollo 13. So first, it was hard to pitch that story because the studio executives said, well, everybody knows they made it back safely. And I said, but it's about a brotherhood. And don't we all root for brotherhoods?

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Don't we all root for family? And so it sort of took the executive by surprise because I didn't even want to argue the story or the ending. I just wanted to case build on the brotherhood. Because brotherhood is what, you know, one might argue that's what we're missing today in America. I mean, we have patriotism as a foundational endpoint that we all want to work towards. But a brotherhood will make that work better. Meaning all of our collective appreciation for, you know, I sound so corny.

• 16:49Rich Roll?

  Sure. No, it's true. And if Tom Hanks is the face of that brotherhood, you know, who are you going to root for more than that guy? Right?

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know if you, that's exactly right. I wasn't even going to cast Tom Hanks. You know, there was all these other action stars. They said, go get this guy or go get that guy or I don't want to say their names. They're all great actors. But I said to myself, I was all ready to pull the trigger on one of those action stars. And I asked myself like, but who does the world want to save the most? They want to save Tom Hanks the most.

• 17:23Rich Roll?

  What is it about that guy that makes him so indelible in that way? What is his defining quality?

• 17:28Speaker 01

  I think people feel his goodness. I just think people feel his basic goodness. And he's, you know, as far as an actor, he's entertaining, but he doesn't need to steal the show so he can actually, you know, you can actually love him at the same time. There's some actors, like in the case of, say, Jack Nicholson, amazing star, or Michael Keaton, amazing star. But, you know, they play really, they often can really excel at very extreme characters. Whereas Tom Hanks, that's not what he really does.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  He doesn't really excel in a really extreme character. I don't think he probably would have been a great Batman, you know, or a great Joker. But he is certainly great at Big, and he's certainly great at Forrest Gump, and he's certainly great at, you know, Captain Sully. He's great at saving the world. He's great, you want, you root for him universally.

• 18:36Rich Roll?

  He can put on the costume of the everyman and embody our best aspirations of who we can be, I think, right?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. He has a different form of magic that he performs.

• 18:49Rich Roll?

  When you are in the casting process, like, is there a system? Like, how do you approach that to try to figure out? Like, how does, how do you, I guess, I would say, I would ask it this way. Like, how do you deploy your curiosity when you're trying to make those choices that are so instrumental in whether a movie's going to work or not?

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Um, I ask questions that would lead to...

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Does, what leads me to understand whether that person has anything that's authentic about them. In other words, if somebody doesn't say anything, if they all speak in generic terms, I know, I know I won't hire that person. No matter what their credits are, I just won't do it. If they don't have a point of view that I would call, identify as intelligence. In other words, there are certain people that just defy gravity. Because they, it's not their accomplishments, but it's their point of view. You know, and the way they, and the way you communicate with them.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Their, could be their point of view of politics. It could be their point of view about athletics. It could be their point of view about healthcare. But they have a, you know, but what they eat, what they do, their daily process of life. If there's something unique in there, then I'm leaning in, I'm interested. Okay, so if anyone knows who Val Kilmer is. Val Kilmer played many different roles. He was great at, he was great in Heat. He did, he played Jim Morrison in, in the movie about the Doors. For me. Iconic. Yeah, it was very iconic. But prior to that, I hired him in a movie called Real Genius. And I wasn't gonna hire him at all.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Because I didn't think his, I didn't think his reading was particularly good. And he knew I wasn't gonna hire him. So he waited for like four hours for me to leave at the end of the day. So he's sitting on a couch and I'm on the 35th floor of a building in New York. That's where we were doing the casting. And he says, you mind I go down with you? And so before I get answered, he slips into the elevator. He puts a nickel between his fingers, his open hand. And he starts juggling it from finger to finger. Flipping it from his index finger to his, all the way to his baby finger. And then back to the thumb.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  And I thought, wow, that's a kind of magic unto itself. And I literally, by the time we hit the lobby, I hired him.

• 21:38Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Just because he did that thing.

• 21:42Rich Roll?

  Because that told you what?

• 21:44Speaker 01

  It told me that um, he can do, he can do something that's very unique that I couldn't personally do. Um, he had the balls to wait, it might have been five hours, actually, to just get in the elevator with me and capture my attention, which he was very successful at doing it. So he was courageous, he was patient, he had internal grit. And um, I thought he was ultim, at the end of the ride down, I didn't know if he was funny or not, but I found him charismatic. Cause he had the courage to do those things.

• 22:35Rich Roll?

  Producing a movie is such a Herculean task. It's Sisyphean, you're pushing this boulder up a mountain. It's constantly trying to roll back on top of you. It's a miracle any movie gets made. And when a movie is good, it's like, you know, I mean, the number of things that have to go right for a movie to be good, let alone great, is astonishing, I think, that most people don't quite understand. And this town is littered with people who call themselves quote unquote producers, who might spend, you know, the better part of a decade trying to get one project made. And then it comes out and maybe it's not so good or whatever. To have a career as legendary as yours, I mean, like 47 Oscar nominations at this point, is, is just stunning.

• 23:17Rich Roll?

  And so if you had to like, you know, deconstruct the formula for that success, like what is, how have you been able to consistently, you know, create mass media, box office successes, movies that are, that are beloved, that kind of withstand the test of time? Like what is the secret sauce there that you're, that, that speaks to like your strengths? That's kind of fueled your success and empowered this track record that you have?

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Well, from these curiosity conversations, it's yielded my knowledge or insight.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Not complete knowledge and insight, but enough insight that it provides me with new, rich arenas to put, um, characters. So if I like brotherhoods, all of a sudden I start thinking about the selfless nature of firemen. I don't really know much about firemen at all, like almost nothing, you know, just other than, um, you know, when there's a fire, you call the firemen.

• 24:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  You know, but I, but I ended up making this movie called Backdraft that was very beloved by firemen. Um, you know, so I think by reaching out to people and learning about what they do for a living or bigger subjects or unique subjects allows me a curation system to not do something that everybody else is doing. So I try not to follow anybody ever. I don't follow trends. I don't read data research. I never did, and I don't even prognosticate ever what's going to be successful. Oh, now in the box office, this is what's going to be successful. Or next year, everyone's going to want the Barbie movie. I, I, I don't know.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  I mean, in other words, it's a, it's having a curation system that is very broad gives you the ability to understand what in the world, what subjects are interesting to you. And what's interesting to me just happens to turn out to be interesting to other people.

• 25:26Rich Roll?

  You have to, you have to be in a place where you can trust that gut instinct and that intuition though, right?

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:32Rich Roll?

  Which, which you've developed through being constantly curious and always learning and meeting with all different kinds of people. But, but I would imagine that got lodged early because your first movie Splash, everybody said, this is never going to work. And everybody said, no, and blah, blah, blah. And you kind of like, in a Sisyphean way, push that boulder up a mountain. And it becomes this hit, which then tells you, oh, like I, I can trust myself, even when everybody's telling me this is a bad idea.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Well, that's, thank you for. Studying that or knowing that or but that's it's very nice. That's true. It made me feel like, wow, nobody does know. I can trust myself. I can entrust my internal truth, you know, my basic essence drove me towards that. Because ultimately, even though you might learn a subject, you do have to tap into your own needs or your own weaknesses often to find the character and what they want and what makes them survive.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  In that case, it was all about man's survival is through love. And it's hard to find real love. And so that was essentially just the basic truth of the movie. So you always have to have not producer's job is to be creatively and fiscally responsible. So for me, the creative responsibility is to understand the heartbeat of what the movie is and never lose track. And that's why we could make parenthood, for example, like because it's about something that we really believed in. So the script would change form over and over again.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Splash, the script changed form over and over. I mean, in other words, people go, that's terrible script. And I'd work on the script and then I'd get different writers and I just endlessly develop it. Just often just tweaking things a little bit, you know, or rebalancing the script, but never losing sight of what my ultimate goal, mission is. So you have to have a goal, mission.

• 27:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  And not and that's the flame that keeps something going for 10 years. Then you finally get it made.

• 28:00Rich Roll?

  Sure. And the goal, mission, project by project is creating something.

• 28:08Rich Roll?

  Universal that speaks to us in our inner humanity that we can connect with emotionally and doing that through something very specific that's compelling enough to lure us into the movie theater.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:20Rich Roll?

  Basically.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Well, like Eight Mile, the movie Eight Mile. I knew nothing about hip hop. This is with Eminem. I knew nothing about hip hop. Ten years before I even met Eminem, I had this curiosity conversation with Old Dirty Bastard of the Wu-Tang Clan. I was in New York and I, you know, every week had to meet a new person. So I said, oh, my God, I'm going to meet this guy, ODB, Old Dirty Bastard. I thought it was insane name, you know, because at that time, people didn't have, you know, want to have crazy names like that that were kind of degrading at the same time. In any event, so I meet ODB. I learn about the language of hip hop in the, on the East Coast. And then I start to demystify with that language,

• 29:07Speaker 01

  why it was there, what it was, what it represented. It represented the inner voice of the street and what was going to become the language of the youth in America. And from ODB, I met with Public Enemy, with Chuck D, and then Slick Rick, then LL Cool J. And all of a sudden, I start to think, wow, this is, hip hop is not a subculture. It is the, it's the culture.

• 29:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  So then I start thinking that. Then I later thought, then I, much later, I'm struggling with this for 10 years. I had Spike Lee help me a little bit. I was going to do it as a series, then as a movie with, I meet Eminem and I realized that within his story is overcoming shame. And I thought, wow, I could relate to that because I too had to overcome a lot of shame. We all have some shame. It's just sort of.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Did it stop you from something? And it stopped him from being able to look at an audience and, you know, rap the way he, and to show his talent. And so that was really what the movie was about, is like overcoming your, you know, your, your, your injuries, your personal and real injuries, and getting to your talent, getting over those barriers so you can actually express your talent.

• 30:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it, you know, you reflect back on that movie and you think it's about his rise to superstardom, but it's really not about that at all. It's about him owning who he is, coming to terms with and, and, and, you know, having some peace about his background, his upbringing, and being self-actualized, you know, in that through his performance in that culminating scene where he's just owning that truth, which is a universal thing. It's a very specific way of, of channeling into something that most people have to go through in their lives. And I think that's why it connected so deeply. But the story of your initial meeting with Eminem is, is pretty wild because he was very resistant to your wiles.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was very, I mean, I met with him in my office and it took a lot of effort to get him in there. And he wasn't a superstar then, he was a rising star. And he just wouldn't look at me and he didn't really wanna talk. And so I had to go to great lengths to get him to wanna speak to me and communicate.

• 31:41Rich Roll?

  So how did you build that trust? How did you overcome that wall that he was throwing up?

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Probably ultimately, when I got out of being, when I, when I was, there was a moment where I was just super desperate when he was ready to leave. And by being that desperate, it might've represented something to him, like, wow, this guy really cares. But I've never asked him and I don't know.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  But maybe sitting in my office, just as I'm the movie producer and he's the rising star, I don't know, maybe the roles. So I stepped way out of my role and... And again, just before he had his hand on the door to leave. And I don't want to say what I said, but I just asked him like, please, you know, please stay. You can, you can communicate with me.

• 32:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you said animate.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, he did.

• 32:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  And I thought, I said, come on, you can animate or something like that. And I thought, oh, man, he just, he looked at me with a face that kill me. But then he came back and talked.

• 32:51Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  So it was great.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  He's a gigantically talented, like gigantically.

• 33:00Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:02Rich Roll?

  This book, A Curious Mind, it came out in 2015 originally, right? Then you wrote Face to Face, which is about the importance of personal contact. I think that came out in 2019.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:15Rich Roll?

  So why synthesize those two books and expand A Curious Mind and re-release it now?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Okay. Because my publisher asked me to.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Because I think people today are operating much more in the state of mind of curiosity. And if they're not, two things.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  I think they are that curiosity, the word curiosity, which overcomes, I don't know, the shame of, I don't know.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  The word curiosity is much more in our lexicon since the book. And I think that now we're entering a totally new chapter of what we have to be curious about, which is the state of the world politically, but more importantly, on our personal lives and survival, AI. So can we use AI one on one to better our lives? Or is it going in some ways to break down our life? Either our livelihood, our economics, or replace us? So the more curious you are about that subject right now, or these subjects right now, the more successful you will be in your job and the more successful you be as a human being.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  And I think the basic principles of a curious mind and fused together with Face to Face, the Art of Human Connection, which is really about just treating that face to face and eye contact as our human Wi-Fi. Because without that human Wi-Fi, nobody would have ever trusted me or sat with me for an hour to talk to me. They would have talked to me for a few minutes. If I looked away or looked at my phone, they would have just, or if they felt I wasn't interested, or if my eye contact was not sincere, they would have left. Isaac Asimov, who, he did leave. That was the only one that did leave. But Edward Teller, I mean,

• 35:16Speaker 01

  I've met hundreds of Nobel laureates. They, I mean, I could just endless amount. Those people would not have left. Princess Di wouldn't have broken protocol and shared a bowl of ice cream with me, you know, at the premiere of Apollo 13.

• 35:37Rich Roll?

  A lot has happened since 2019 and even more since 2015, when the first iteration of this book came out. The political landscape has shifted completely. We endured a pandemic, which just basically eliminated all of this face to face interpersonal, you know, interaction that you speak of. It changed the workplace. It changed how we think about how we interact with people. But, you know, Eminem is not giving you the green light to go forward on this movie if that meeting was conducted on a Zoom call. Like, it's not happening, right?

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Not happening.

• 36:14Rich Roll?

  So, there is a certain kind of timeliness, like, yes, your publisher, you know, encouraged you to do this. But, you know, frankly, and you say it outright in the book, like, this is a very interesting moment that we find ourselves in, where we have an untethered relationship with the importance of Person, you know, in-person interactions with other human beings that has been tarnished by what we just endured. It gives us an appreciation for how much we need it, but at the same time, we're still disengaged from it. People don't go into the office and, you know, we are doing more Zoom calls than we were before the pandemic. That's just a fact. And that is fomenting this epidemic of loneliness. I had the Surgeon General on here and we went in deep on that.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  I heard that one, actually.

• 37:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  That was amazing.

• 37:02Rich Roll?

  So, you know, this is a very real thing. The antidote to which is being in communion with people, finding shared common ground, applying that curiosity as a vehicle or an engine for empathy. Because empathy is what we lack and empathy is what we need most right now in order to resolve the very serious problems that are driving us apart from each other, threatening the fabric of democracy and our ability to really cohere as a society. Like these, yes, like engage people with curiosity, but what's behind that is something, I think, much more profound and fundamental that you're getting at with all of this.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. I would trust you, by the way.

• 37:50Rich Roll?

  I hope so.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Well, you have a lot of hu- you're well-read. I could tell you actually read the books and, um, and you have so much humility.

• 38:00Rich Roll?

  Well, I care about this and I'm a practitioner of these things that you talk about. And, you know, when podcasting during the pandemic all went to Zoom, like I, you know, I had to do a few of those and I just, I hated it because I need to be, I need, it's not just, yes, the eye contact. We're sharing an energy here.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  We are, definitely.

• 38:20Rich Roll?

  And you can't, you can't put words to it and you also can't place a value on that. That is at the center of everything. Like I have this phrase, like conversation matters because conversation is a vehicle into another person's experience that allows you to breed empathy and understanding and overcome the baked-in biases that we all have. And it allows us to suspend our judgments and communicate more openly. And that's the only way that we can solve the problems that we face.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  True. It's a great reminder, actually, that we do when we're together. So I'm just thinking about that. We operate on an energy or vibration.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Whereas on a Zoom, you definitely don't have that. That's completely absent. And so your way that you would detect somebody's truth, or the things that we were just talking about, those core values, they're not really live, they live in that energy and they're not really living on the Zoom. The other thing about Zooms, because I spent a lot of time doing, you know, writing and producing comedies. No one's particularly funny on a Zoom, you know? There's not a lot of laughter on Zooms. Laughter is an important lubricant. It's really, you know, meaningful.

• 39:40Rich Roll?

  And the writer's room was really one of the things that was under threat during the recent strike that just got resolved.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:46Rich Roll?

  Too, right? Like, the magic occurs in the energy that's shared by a group of really talented, funny people.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 39:53Rich Roll?

  And when they're just doing it on a Zoom call, yeah, maybe they can come up with a few jokes. It's not the same, though.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:59Rich Roll?

  And it's not a problem that AI is going to solve.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Curious to see what'll happen.

• 40:06Rich Roll?

  I mean, what is your, what is your inclination around that?

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Around AI?

• 40:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Um, in relation to which, okay, uh, well, there's

• 40:16Speaker 01

  many people in the tech world of tech, and I'm sure you know because you've interviewed them, that believe that we're going to survive and succeed better with AI.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  But then, like, who will survive and succeed better? Will it be the common man, or will it just, or will it be the elite man, you know, the, the, so I don't know the answer to that, really. I, I use AI, I use OpenAI, I use um, a few other sources in testing the

• 40:54Speaker 01

  A story. So if I have a story and then I want to state and I want to write about it differently or or find a word that I might not have thought about in relation to the story. Well, I had to give a birthday speech for my wife the other day to my wife. And so I thought I'll write down all the virtues of my wife and then create and turn that into a narrative. And then I thought, why wouldn't I just feed that into Chat G P T? So then I did. And of course, I couldn't read that because not that I'm above it or something. I just don't think I could. I'm just not good at reading speeches. You know, some people are.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  I'm not. I I sort of try. I try to understand the base. You know, feel the basic principles of it and know that those truths live inside of me. And then, like you pointed out earlier, just talk about it.

• 41:56Rich Roll?

  You have a whole thing on public speaking, leading from the heart and like just being like how, you know, honesty and kind of being real is much more powerful than whatever words are coming out of your mouth.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, because people buy that. They don't even buy your words.

• 42:11Rich Roll?

  They're reading your energy.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:12Rich Roll?

  And and if you can show them your soul, which is something A I doesn't have, you're you're gonna you're you're in a better position to win them over than through the the cogency of your argument, right?

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:25Rich Roll?

  And so A I being this kind of soulless thing, it can be this tool. It can actually be an incredibly powerful instrument. We use it for stuff here all the time.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:36Rich Roll?

  But, you know, it doesn't have a consciousness. And so I think it's important to be cognizant of its shortcomings because creativity is our is our gift, right? And I think you and you talk about this also, like how technology in general, not just A I, but even, you know, going online is great if it's actually nourishing your curiosity and and kind of empowering you to dig deeper and and really go further. But it can also work as.

• 43:12Rich Roll?

  As as kind of a impediment to your curiosity because you think your curiosity has been satisfied. So if you prompt ChatGPT or you go you Google something and you think that's the end of the story, you're not really you're not really engaging in your curiosity and you're not going to find that innovative, creative solution that nobody ever thought of before.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  So true. I because it was my wife's 50th birthday and we're having at a friends of ours house with about 70 people. And, you know, I think I'm probably a good speaker. I mean, I'm a good public speaker, but I get nervous every time. And, and so when I did the ChatGPT and I kept, you know, reiterating upon it, that does tell you what to say. I mean, it's using your words, your prompts, for the most part. But it doesn't give you

• 44:14Speaker 01

  like, what I I didn't look to that at all. And instead of talking about my love, I was able to communicate it in a way that I was showing you my love. So showing her, my wife. And that's what worked. Like, people cheered. They all liked that because it was, it was, you know, rudimentary, but it was from the soul. And people felt that I showed my love instead of, you know, from a distance, just talking about it.

• 44:51Rich Roll?

  Right, right. How has this new era of Hollywood where the streamers are front and center changed what you do? Because to me, it feels like, on the one hand, there's never been more opportunity to tell stories because there's so many outlets, so many opportunities to get a project made or to have a story told. But it's become our our culture has become so diffuse. There is no monoculture anymore, and that's probably a good thing. But at the same time, you know, shy of a big Marvel Marvel movie, it's close to impossible now to to create something that has

• 45:35Rich Roll?

  A resonant cultural impact beyond like whatever's happening this week?

• 45:42Speaker 01

  It's hard. Well, because there's so many deflections. There's from watching a movie, there's more live sports than ever. I mean, things like that. Well, there's just a lot going on. Oh, specifically to the point of streaming.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  It's harder to create a cultural moment with streaming. I think. Now,

• 46:11Speaker 01

  there are times that something really were like in documentary, the Michael Jordan documentary, that was a streamer.

• 46:18Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  That was really amazing. But I mean, you have to be A++ to be able to create a cultural moment with something that streams, in my opinion. Because there's not external tactile marketing. It's all digital marketing. So you're not really feeling something. The marketing part, the framing of your piece. I mean, Oppenheimer, for example, or Barbie, those two are the biggest movies. There was outdoor advertising, they were in the elevator, it was on bus stops. There was all sorts of things and and you felt and would you just felt there was a tactile kind of communication with you

• 47:05Speaker 01

  that helped frame seeing that movie. And that's why people, I think, like, you know, well, there's a Taylor Swift component or there's,

• 47:17Speaker 01

  you know, basketball, there's Super Bowl, just being there is makes a huge difference. And it lives those the things that happen that are great happen in a more magnified way to the culture, I think.

• 47:33Rich Roll?

  But does it feel like they're fewer and far between now?

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:38Rich Roll?

  And does that change the nature of how you approach a project? Or you still just do it the way that you you know how to do it?

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Well, fortunately for for me, a lot of the streamers, you know, whether it's Apple or Amazon or Netflix, you know, they're all kind of streamers now, but or Disney, they.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Fortunately, they all want imagined movies of the 2000s, which are, you know, like they go, "Just make the movies that you used to make." Which are tour de force films, meaning, you know, it's like one, like a, say, A Beautiful Mind. It was about John Nash, played by Russell Crowe. Or Denzel Washington, playing Frank Lucas, an American gangster, or, you know, um, there's, you know, those, those movies of the 2000s, I have so many more, that are just driven by, for the most part, a single performance

• 48:42Speaker 01

  about a subject that leads you to, usually leads you to cry. You know, either because of the celebration of greatness, or sadness along the way, and then greatness. I try to have every movie that we work on have hope, even, even if it's hard.

• 49:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, or, or some form of redemption.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Yes, redemption for sure.

• 49:10Rich Roll?

  Why is storytelling important?

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Uh, because it gets you, storytelling is important because it's, it should be entertaining, but it should nourish your soul in the same way that one of the great books of all time could do. But the beauty of storytelling in a cinematic and sonic form together, or that it reaches you on every level, you know, on a cellular level. Like it really, it can really be therapeutic. You can learn so much about yourself. I mean, I, I got into the, the movies that I make because I saw, you know, I didn't know, I didn't go to cinema school.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  I mean, I teach at the cinema school, but I didn't go there. But the movie that really, really made a difference for me, that I felt elevated my state of consciousness, and elevated me as a person, was E.T.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  I saw E.T. And the conventional, you know, you'd go to movies and you'd fight with lines and you'd fight with the, you know, the vendor and you want to get popcorn, then you want to save your seat, you want to do all this stuff. It's a really, and people are honking and pushing and I remember at the end of the movie E.T. Nobody honked, nobody pushed. It was, the vibe was entirely different. Everybody was elevated to a more peaceful, more thoughtful state of mind. That was my experience. So I thought, if I can have movies do that, take people on journeys or adventures in

• 50:56Speaker 01

  a story to get them to that state of mind. Today, I want to make movies that lead us to the state of mind of feeling that, that there's faith, that we're grounded by faith and that we should be aware, attention to that. It's not religion, it's, it's just faith, you know, it's doing things, abiding by the golden rule, you know, it's all those things, just about one-on-one human connection.

• 51:25Rich Roll?

  Also, this sense of possibility.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:28Rich Roll?

  And that, and that humans are fundamentally good. That seems to, you know, recur.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  I think that for sure.

• 51:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  And wars often end by, by having people get together. Seldom does it, does that backfire, where you get together to help demystify one another to realize we're here surviving on the same, on the same planet for similar reasons. Does that? Turn into something bad. It usually is turns into something good.

• 52:07Rich Roll?

  What's the movie you have yet to make that you've always wanted to make that needs to get made?

• 52:12Speaker 01

  I want to make a modern army movie right now.

• 52:15Rich Roll?

  Oh, you will. You opened the book with this whole experience of going to Fort Irwin. I've done that. I've done that trip where you take the Blackhawks to, yeah, from Burbank.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  What got you to do that?

• 52:26Rich Roll?

  My friend Jesse Albert hosts these for certain individuals time to time and he, you know, asked me if I would come. And so I did. I didn't. I think you were there two days, right? I did a day with a bunch of people and did the whole thing where you you go everywhere and you you use all the stuff.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Shoot guns, you go in tanks, you do the whole thing. Yeah.

• 52:45Rich Roll?

  It's wild.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was wild. And now I'm going to go to Fort Campbell, which is all the aviation helicopters and everything. Cause I'm, it's part of this movie.

• 52:56Rich Roll?

  The, the trick is, what is like, the movie isn't like the army. The movie is what like, what is it that you identified through that experience of visiting Fort Irwin and, and meeting with that general? That got you excited about the story that could potentially be told there?

• 53:16Speaker 01

  It's so much about we stick together. You live, I live, you die, I die. You know, it's really,

• 53:26Speaker 01

  it's really about humanity, basically. And that it's hard being in any of the services is difficult, but it also is rewarding. And it also, there's times that because you're sharing, you're so intimate with your brothers or brothers and sisters at this point, that you have a lot of laughs, too.

• 53:51Rich Roll?

  So it's a story about brotherhood?

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  I only use four themes.

• 53:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So the four themes are?

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Uh, family.

• 54:00Rich Roll?

  This is the big secret. The secret to Imagine Entertainment's, you know, many decade run.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Okay, so it's brotherhood, self-respect. Like people all want, they thrive for self, they are driven towards self-respect. And, um, and that's, you know, that's ultimately what Eight Mile was about, self-respect. It was self-actualizing to get there, but it's about, it's about respect.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  So it, so family, brotherhood, self-respect, and I had one other one, but, oh, love.

• 54:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the smallest one.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 54:46Rich Roll?

  On the subject of these curiosity conversations, I think it's important. I mean, first of all, I'm curious as to why you think we as a culture like undervalue curiosity, like why we even need to talk about it as something that we should cultivate because it's so obvious to me. And then second to that, like, I think it's important to point out that throughout the, your life where you've been pursuing these conversations, I want to disabuse people of the idea that they were, that they were like directly tethered to some movie project, like, a lot of these movies came out of conversations that you had with people.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  But they weren't on them.

• 55:26Rich Roll?

  Completely unrelated to the subject matter of that. It's like the, it's through osmosis, through just being engaged as a way of being, like being a curious person that has, you know, provided like a lens on the world and a way of filtering experience that creates the possibility for these ideas around movies that you've created.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  So first of all, I look at it like this. The reason I never did a podcast, because people did say, you ought to have a podcast, is I felt like the conversations I was doing shouldn't be commodified in any way, that they're really just, I was on this one-on-one curiosity path to learn. And I felt like many of the people that were sharing their story with me, like Carl Sagan and people like that, they might not have wanted to. There weren't podcasts at that time, really. And, and they weren't thought of as so favorably, the early stages of them, as, as my recollection goes.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  And so, so basically, they weren't attached ever to a project. And I felt like if I approach a person and it's, it's and it's goal-directed, that means it's transactionally-directed. I thought they would sense it was transactional. They wouldn't want to do it. I don't want to be transactional. I just want to have a conversation that's good, that helps me, Brian. And I always want, I always had a goal in mind was I am going to be interesting enough to them that they feel really good about this hour they spent with me.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  And they'll feel like it was the best date they'd ever had. And so I love these conversations. And out of the hundreds, if not thousands of conversations I had, not one person individually turned into a subject. It was really just the insights I gleaned from the conversations or the little nuances that I got out of the conversation that actually became, that just became useful to me in some way or valuable to me.

• 57:55Rich Roll?

  Right, and an example of that, I think, would be the relationship between the Chilean dissident and A Beautiful Mind, which are seemingly completely unrelated and yet informed each other almost perfectly for you.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Yes, well, because what happened is, and I'll tell this story quickly. I met a woman named Veronica de Negre. I met her through Sting, who was an early curiosity conversation I had. So Sting, the musician, I thought, this guy was actually like a schoolteacher and now he's the biggest rock star in the world. I mean, I don't understand how that transition works. And so I thought, I'm gonna meet this, I'm gonna meet Sting. I meet Sting, you know, he might have liked me a little bit. I mean, not tremendously, but enough that he invited me a year later to go to a barbecue. I went to the barbecue and this woman named Veronica de Negre was there

• 58:52Speaker 01

  that he took on the amnesty tour with he and Bruce Springsteen. She was held in prison and was tortured in prison for about six months in Chile under the Pinochet regime. And

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Of course, you gravitate towards the harshest word, torture. And you'll ask, like, what was it like to be tortured? But I thought, I did ask that for a second, then I thought, I'm gonna be more interesting than that. I'm gonna say, how did you survive? Because that at least leads to hope. And it's probably a question that people don't ordinarily ask. Like, what was the process of survival? And she said that her process of survival, while she was unpredictably being tortured every day, was that she created a parallel story in her mind. She has one narrative of what's actually going on in real time, this torture part.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  And then there's this other story that's not going on in real time. It's an alternate reality. And that narrative is only in her mind, like, a story that she's telling herself to give her the sustenance, the ability to survive. So I thought later, when I thought, much later, I thought, I want to make a movie that will help de-stigmatize mental disability. So that's very unrelated to Veronica de Negre and being tortured in Chile. It has nothing to do with that. But by doing these curiosity conversations, each human being that I met, whether it's Veronica de Negre or Carl Sagan, they served as being a dot

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  on a greater constellation of dots that lived in my mind. And often, that constellation of dots, although unrelated, found periodically would connect a dot. So her ability to survive was creating a story that would help her survive. What is this, and now I'm making a movie about a schizophrenic. What does a schizophrenic do? They live in alternate realities. So I thought, well, why don't I show what an alternate reality looks like in a schizophrenic's mind? And that will...

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Do several things to the movie of The John Nash Story. One, it will make it horrifying. It'll show an audience really what it looks like to be in somebody's mind that is mentally disabled, either bipolar or schizophrenic, or any other mental disability. It shows what that other narrative looks like. That will help us as a viewer have compassion for that person, instead of just driving past them when we see him on the street screaming at a car or something, or a street lamp.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  The other thing it did was it enabled me as a dramatist to make the movie, instead of, in fact, a straight drama, we made it a thriller. So a thriller actually elevates the popularity, the chances of critical, of commercial popularity. Thrillers have more propulsion, drive in the narrative. So therefore, audiences going, "Oh my God, what's gonna happen now?" In a drama, it's more, it's slightly more melancholy. And, and so it changed the genre to a thriller, which helped it become hugely commercially

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  successful.

• 1:02:46Rich Roll?

  Right, the thriller genre acts as a Trojan horse.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:49Rich Roll?

  To bring people in and show them a different perspective on mental health that helps, like, normalize the conversation around it.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:03:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  So, so that, so very, very unrelated. And then, weirdly, I was able to relate to Apollo 13 much better, which was later, because that was about survival as well. And I thought... You know, what's it like? It's different, you know, it made me think of the subject of survival. And the subject of survival for them is just like coping with the difficulty, putting a square plague into a round hole, all those things. And, um, and so the subject of survival became a subject for me that I was able to expand upon in many different movies, actually.

• 1:03:39Rich Roll?

  Beautiful.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Rich Roll?

  Um, I have to let you go, but the last thing I'll say is, uh, for somebody who's listening to this, who's thinking about curiosity a little bit differently than they were an hour ago, who's thinking, yeah, but I'm nervous to talk to people, or, you know, I'm not Brian Grazer, I don't have fancy friends. Perhaps a few words to leave people with around how to approach engendering a little more curiosity in your life by engaging with the people in your environment.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Well, look, I did it for 20 years where I wasn't famous. So anyone can do it. You just, all the people that you know of, or know or know of in your universe, why don't you just ask one of them to have a curiosity conversation with you? And so it's the teacher across the street, or, or, um, the insurance salesman down the street, whoever it is, you often think of those jobs as being really, maybe not interesting or banal. But, um, if you actually have talked to somebody, you will find the magic within them. You'll find something that interests you.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  I mean, we were on break for two, a couple of minutes, and I was super curious about how you got into being a, um, a podcaster, which you did before that. And then you told me you were a lawyer, and I thought, wow, I would have never guessed that. So just the surprise of that was interesting. And then you did ultra marathon, what are they called, or ultra what?

• 1:05:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you got it, ultras.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Ultras?

• 1:05:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  You don't want to see, you're too humble to say. Ultra physical events.

• 1:05:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's it, you got it.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Double the size of a marathon. I mean, I can't even imagine a marathon, much less double the size.

• 1:05:30Rich Roll?

  I love it, thank you.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Okay, thanks, see ya.

• 1:05:33Rich Roll?

  I appreciate it.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:05:34Rich Roll?

  Cheers.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  Cheers.

• 1:05:39Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review

• 1:06:22Rich Roll?

  and/or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated, and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the Meal Planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media

• 1:07:05Rich Roll?

  assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Tractor Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.