How To Heal & Move On From Narcissistic Relationships w/ Dr. Ramani EP 1344

Dr. Ramani Durvasula is a licensed clinical psychologist, author, and podcast host. The focus of Dr. Durvasula’s work is the etiology and impact of narcissism and high-conflict, entitled, antagonistic personality styles on human relationships, mental health, and societal expectations. Dr. Ramani has authored two books, has accumulated millions of views on her YouTube channel and just launched her new podcast, “Navigating Narcissism”Be sure to check out her online program for people healing from narcissistic relationships & abuse here! In this episode you will learn, The red-flags of knowing you are with a narcissistic partner. How the sunk-cost fallacy plays a role in our relationships. Why you need to stop being afraid to change course. To find your best path forward to leaving toxic relationships behind. For more, go to lewishowes.com/1344Check out Dr. Ramani’s prior episode on The School of Greatness: https://link.chtbl.com/1195-podEsther Perel’s Simple Trick to Heal & Deepen Your Relationships: https://link.chtbl.com/1291-podHeal Your Past Relationships & Find Love [MASTERCLASS]:https://link.chtbl.com/1335-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  One thing I would tell people is don't shame your triggers. Because I think when people say, "I don't want to be triggered," I'm like, "Nah, you know, you don't have that line into your sympathetic nervous system. It's always gonna be quicker than you." So, because it's always gonna be quicker, we have to be aware.

• 0:15Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:40Lewis Howes?

  Well, we were talking about this beforehand, that this is one of the biggest challenges people face in modern society is understanding and navigating narcissism. How to understand if you're a narcissist, how to understand if there's people in your life who have these tendencies or personality traits, and really how to create healthy boundaries the best way possible. First thing I want to talk about with you is because the previous one, we kind of went through unpacking what a narcissist is.

• 1:06Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yep.

• 1:07Lewis Howes?

  The different types of narcissism, and how to spot it, and how to see it. And I think a lot of people went through breakups since then. You know, a lot of people probably ended relationships that they realized were very toxic and unhealthy, and not a vision for what they wanted in their life.

• 1:23Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:25Lewis Howes?

  And so for people, the first question I want to ask you, for people who have ended relationships with a narcissist or narcissistic personalities, what's the best way for them to enter a new relationship without PTSD, or without the remnants of, "Are they gonna lash out at me? Are they gonna gaslight me? Are they gonna do these things that I've experienced in the past?" What's the best way to overcome that, and enter a new relationship without bringing that baggage in the new one?

• 1:57Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  When I work with survivors in my practice and when I speak to them in a subscription, like a sort of healing program I've got that people come every month. And one thing I say is you've got a way to beat. The temptation is, I'm going to throw myself into a new relationship as a palate cleanser. I'm like, you know what, sit with that dirty palate for a minute. Because you need to do this work in you. Because I think the challenge is, is that when people get into narcissistic relationships or antagonistic or toxic relationships, they don't know what they're dealing with or they're replicating cycles from earlier in their life, right? Or both. And so what happens is, is that if you pivot too quickly, you don't get a chance to sort of know you.

• 2:41Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  A narcissistic relationship does such a number on you. You have now been living in someone else's reality, right? People forget, like, do I like pepperoni pizza? Or do I enjoy this TV show? Or what temperature do I want the house out? Like, you literally lose sight of your own subjective sense of who you are. You lose sense of reality and your own perception of things. You just lose it all because you literally have been living in psychological servitude to this other person. So I tell people, listen, my gold standard is a year. Give yourself a year, which I know is not a short period of time. And everyone, I'm like, you know what? Take care of your own business, but a year. I understand that feels like a long time, but here's the thing. These relationships get so much into someone's head

• 3:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  that in a year, a person can re-coalesce and they can unpack it and they can start putting down some of the rumination. You certainly don't want to do that in a new relationship, right?

• 3:37Lewis Howes?

  You don't want to bring that.

• 3:38Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You don't want to bring that in. And you can also learn what you like, what you don't like, so that when somebody encroaches on that and says, they say something contemptuous, says, ugh, who eats that? And say, again, this is not, this is not okay. I'm not doing this again. You can start recognizing those patterns of what just doesn't feel right. But if you roll right into it, it's almost like a recreation of the old cycle. You need that separation. You need a break from anniversary dates. You need to have that first birthday alone, their first birthday alone, the holidays you do, the vacations you take. You've got to go live a life without them. And once you, because otherwise you're so... Again, caught up, you might get caught up in someone else's sort of whole toxic bomb storm. So now, I know a lot of people say, "A year just feels too long."

• 4:23Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I'm like, "I got you, I get it. A year's optimal." And the folks who've done it said, "I don't regret doing that at all now." But for a lot of people, it might even be eight months, nine months. But there's a moment, Louis, after a narcissistic relationship, where a person will look up as they go to bed that night and say, "Oh, my God, I didn't think of them once today. That's a good day."

• 4:46Lewis Howes?

  That's an amazing day.

• 4:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And I want not just one of those, I want a person to have a month of those.

• 4:51Lewis Howes?

  Not a huge.

• 4:52Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  A while of those where they're just, you know, sure, something might remind them or something, but not that like, "What are they doing? What are they up to?" Almost to the point where you've detached, it might even be a moderate indifference. Like, "Oh, whatever, you know, let them do them."

• 5:06Lewis Howes?

  It doesn't like, trigger you?

• 5:07Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It doesn't set you off in the same way, but I do caution people. Depending on the severity of the narcissistic relationship, sometimes people will report feeling those echoes years down the line, even if they've fallen in love with someone else. And someone will say, "Does that mean I'm not over them?" Not at all. It means that the way the trauma systems and the mind and the body hold on to information, it means that anything that reminds you of that can still activate you. I've been through this, and I gotta tell you, to this day, I think if I saw some of the people who harmed me in the past, I can think of a few.

• 5:38Lewis Howes?

  You'd have a response.

• 5:39Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Oh, my gosh, beyond a response. I actually think I would have to, I would almost, it would be akin to panic. And I honestly do not care what happens to those people, but if I saw them, it would be really upsetting for me. It's not that I'm not over it, it's just that I, it's just my nervous system's just a danger, danger death.

• 5:55Lewis Howes?

  Get away from this experience, yeah. Interesting. Wow. So the optimal is nine months to a year, but it's really more like taking the temperature of allowing your nervous system to heal. See if you can have a few days in a row, in a month in a row, where you're not thinking about that person, or it's not triggering you consistently before you enter into a new relationship.

• 6:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And that you're clear on who you are. You're not, because in a narcissistic relationship, you're defined by the relationship. Are they happy today? Are we having a good day? Are they happy with their lives? It's, everything is about them, right? So now, for the first time, you make things be about you. Like, I'm good, like, no, I want to pursue this job. Yeah, no, I'm moving to New York. And not like, oh, is this gonna work?

• 6:39Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You, for a minute, you. And, and when you meet your person, capital P, and it's healthy, they might say like, ah, you know what, for about six months, we could do this long distance, or I can work remotely, I'll come to New York, we'll figure it out. You'll start to see that there's a possibility for compromise. But I do think that a lot of people, after a narcissistic relationship, their tripwire is a bit more sensitive. And they may throw back a few fish that are big enough to keep. And that's okay. I'd rather that they, people over-correct than under-correct. And they might say, am I, and this is where, again, when I work with clients, they'll say, am I being too intense about this? Is this too big and ask? Nine times out of ten, Louis, it's not too big.

• 7:22Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Like, they're right on point with the thing they're sensing feels red-flaggy to them, or doesn't feel comfortable, or something doesn't, isn't sitting well. And I'm teaching people, listen to that.

• 7:33Lewis Howes?

  It's so funny you're saying this, because when I got into my, my relationship with Martha, my girlfriend now, in the beginning, I was like, listen, part of, I think I specifically said to her, like, I kinda want you to run away from me. Because I want to be so authentically myself, that it either draws you into me, because you accept and receive who I am, or it kind of repels you away from me, of like, my truth, and my vision, and my mission, and who I am in this world, and my, my being, right? My, what I want to create in this life. Because I think I gave in so much in previous relationships, to please others, and to be, change who I was, and morph, to make sure that they were okay and happy, which is all

• 8:14Lewis Howes?

  my responsibility for, for, for doing that. But I was like, I'm not changing who I am, just to make one person Happy, right? I'm going to, this is who I am. If you want, if you wanna hang out and be friends and see how it goes, cool. If not, that's cool too. But I'm not going to change myself to try to get you to like me and make you constantly happy.

• 8:39Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right.

• 8:39Lewis Howes?

  You know, or anytime you're upset at me for doing something, I'm gonna stop, you know, doing it just to make you happy and be an edge. And I'm so glad that I did that. Well, part of me was like, probably some PTSD in the beginning where I was like, I'm just doing this to protect myself.

• 8:54Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right.

• 8:54Lewis Howes?

  Cause I'd rather be single.

• 8:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Correct.

• 8:56Lewis Howes?

  Than get into a relationship that's unhealthy.

• 8:58Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And that's the key, right? I'd rather be single than get into a relationship that's unhealthy. And that's the, that's, because that's, that's what people are afraid of.

• 9:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I was like, I'll be single the rest of my life. If it's, if it means I'm not gonna be in this type of relationships that I've been in the previous. And it's creating a new standard for myself. You know, what I'll allow in and what I wanna allow. What boundaries I'll create and, and making sure that it's in alignment with my partner as well. And I'm glad I did that, even though in the beginning, she's like, you might have had a little PTSD still from the previous relationship. I'm kinda glad that I came with that. I would call it, I was very courageous in my communication about this is my truth. And it made scary away. And I have to be okay if you're not accepting it. I have to be okay if you don't like me.

• 9:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Correct.

• 9:45Lewis Howes?

  And here's like an amazing woman that may not wanna be with me and I have to be okay with that.

• 9:48Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes.

• 9:49Lewis Howes?

  But it's not giving in anymore.

• 9:51Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right. It's not giving in. And I think that that's the key.

• 9:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and it was, it was a beautiful experiment for me entering a relationship that way by being honest about, this is who I am, this is my values, this is my vision, this is what I'm aligned to and what I'm not aligned to. If this is something you wanna explore, then let's keep dating and exploring it and seeing how it goes. And I think that was a, was a beautiful experience for me to witness the receiving of that on the other side. And just being consistent with my word. You know, this is what I want, this is what I not want. And being in that place, but um, how can we make sure? But in the beginning, I'll probably say there was a little PTSD remnants of it. How can we make sure we don't bring in that? Energy, is it just waiting for a year and nine months and doing the work on the

• 10:37Lewis Howes?

  healing process, but how do we not bring any of that past relationship into new relationships?

• 10:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  When you say bring that past relationship into new relationships, what do you think that looks like? What do you mean by that?

• 10:47Lewis Howes?

  The traumas of the past relationship, the trigger responses, the, you know, things that you did in previous relationships to protect yourself, how do you continue to keep an open heart and open minds and not go back into the default?

• 11:03Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right, so one thing I would tell people is don't shame your triggers, because I think what people say, "I don't want to be triggered," I'm like, "Nah, you know, you don't have that line into your sympathetic nervous system, it's always gonna be quicker than you." So, you are, it is, because it's always gonna be quicker, we have to be aware, for example, sometimes we even feel it, like, I know that for people in a relationship, something will happen, they'll hear something, and they'll feel that tightness in their chest, that funniness in their gut, right? The key then becomes is to say, "Okay, I am uncomfortable, let me hear through," that that's where the mindfulness, you almost gotta try to punch through that, "let me be present with what they're saying," even though, you know, it's almost like trying to listen to someone in a noisy bar at that point, you know, when you lean in, you're

• 11:45Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  like, "Okay, I'm fully concentrating on what this person's saying, 'cause, oh, it's chaos around me," but, so that, that chaos, that sympathetic nervous system turning on is like the noise in a bar. So now you're really leaning in, you're looking at them, I know when I have that response, I literally watch their mouth, because I'm like, "Okay, I can shape out the words," and it almost gives me a totally mindful space to watch them shape the words, it's almost like you can think of it in a movie when they go right to someone's mouth, and so, now I'm really paying attention to what they're saying, because the danger of the trigger is that we, we don't hear, right? So it's to be aware, yeah, we're just like, we're in freeze mode, our eyes become wide, the whole nine yards, we feel that, and then we start to name it and say, "I can feel

• 12:29Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  that I'm getting activated like I did before, I've really gotta listen, I'm not gonna," because we can't- You're not gonna turn that off. That's my point is that people say, "I've gotta wait till I can turn it off." I'm like, "Then you're gonna be 117 and that's when you're gonna start dating again." Which I'm sure you're gonna be, you know, there's a great dating pool, I'm sure, no doubt. But at that point of the other 117-year-olds, but no. You can't, you, otherwise you're forever, then you're living in, you're still living in service to that relationship. And the whole idea is to no longer live in service to your narcissistic relationship.

• 13:03Lewis Howes?

  To the past relationship.

• 13:04Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  To the past relationship. So the trigger then becomes, to me, triggers our communication. Your nervous system's saying, "Whoa, something dangerous is happening." And you're kinda saying, "I get it, I need to listen, this is new." Because when you think of what post-traumatic stress is, right? It's a programming. So if you use a classical example, I know a person got into an accident on a particular stretch of the freeway, right? So they avoid that road, right? And let's say then one day the Uber driver takes that road and their heart is racing because that's almost been sort of imprinted in. But you know what? You go down that road enough times, you set, you don't let the racing heart say, "I can't go on this road, something terrible's gonna happen." You say, "Okay, I'm gonna tolerate this."

• 13:49Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Maybe you have someone in the car with you the first time. So you can't stop living, but you can also hear those triggers happening. And in the new relationship, give yourself permission to communicate, not say like, "I'm being triggered and I think you're cheating on me." That might be a little heavy. And say, "You know, I need a minute, I, you know, in my past, X and Y happened. So at these moments, I know it just, it takes me a minute. Can you, it's hard for me, my trust was betrayed, so I'm gonna need time to build that trust." I always say that in some ways, people coming out of narcissistic relationships are at an incredible advantage. Because if you can really be honest with yourself about saying, "I'm gonna ask for what I need

• 14:33Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  and if this person ain't gonna give it, then maybe this isn't my person." And time is a big one. Narcissistic relationships are usually like this, fast, fast, fast, right? "Let's do this, we're in love, this is the best thing ever, let's move in, let's do this, let's go to Paris for three years." Like whatever kind of over-the-top stuff.

• 14:51Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But time is usually a way that people can build trust. You can see that there's a new way to respond. A loving, kind person will say, we're good. We're gonna take this really, really slow. If you need that, because then that's telling you that this person's hearing you. On one of many things you need someone in an intimate relationship to do. And maybe because I'm older, I say, I think and say these things is that, you know, this, forgive me, this is gonna sound so off color, but I'm just gonna say it is the, I call it the ass wiping test. I need you to look at this person, you know, everyone's young and beautiful and dating.

• 15:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I want you to fast forward to you're 85 or maybe 90 and you've, you snapped a hip or something. This person gonna wipe your ass and be loving about it? And if the answer is yes, probably a keeper.

• 15:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 15:44Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But if you think like this person's gonna sneer or doesn't wanna be in the hospital, no. Not your person. And I know that, but if you're really thinking you're gonna go the distance with this person, are they gonna stay up all night with a kid who has diarrhea? Are they going to wipe your, are they gonna be okay if, when things are no longer okay? Because that's where narcissistic relationships fall apart, when real life comes along. So try that ass wiping test. I'll tell you now, ain't no narcissist in the world gonna wipe your ass. I promise you that right now.

• 16:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think Esther Perel talks about the difference between a love story and a life story. Or a love partner and a life partner, right? Where it's like you could have romance and adventure and, you know, crazy sex with a love partner, right? But are they gonna be a great life partner for you during these times you're talking about?

• 16:30Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Correct.

• 16:31Lewis Howes?

  There's also kinda like the, someone else mentioned this, I can't remember who, the 10,000 meal test. Do you wanna have 10,000 meals with this individual?

• 16:40Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah.

• 16:40Lewis Howes?

  If every other meal, they're exhausting to be around and they're ungrateful and they're gaslighting you or whatever they're doing, do you want 10,000 of these?

• 16:49Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I love that.

• 16:50Lewis Howes?

  For the rest of your life? Like, can you imagine sitting down for 10,000 meals with this person? So, that's why I think 10,000 meals, life story, you know, all these things I think are great. But I feel like, I'll speak from example. I used to get caught up so much in the passion, the excitement, the chemicals of the early relationship moments, right? And I used to think this is incredible, this feeling, this love, right? And then six months, nine months, 12 months, it's like you start to unwind and realize, well, what are, do we have the same values? And are we in alignment of what life looks like together in our lifestyle? And then you try to, I tried to make it work, right? So it was always out of alignment from the start.

• 17:31Lewis Howes?

  And you mentioned something off camera about, you know, when we find someone who is quote unquote boring. That's a great sign.

• 17:40Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Especially for people of histories of trauma.

• 17:43Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 17:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I mean, I think that for some folks, you know, it's the, it's the, again, the, the activation, the trauma bond, the, the sort of hot and cold is what equals love, that I need to earn love, that I constantly have to feel like I'm running faster and faster on the treadmill, becomes equated with love, that's the love equals chaos kind of thing. So the person where it's kind of like

• 18:04Lewis Howes?

  That's not healthy love.

• 18:05Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's not, the flatness though, and I think, I even hate the word boring, whereas as much as it's not volatile.

• 18:11Lewis Howes?

  It's calm.

• 18:12Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right, it's calm.

• 18:13Lewis Howes?

  Calm, run towards the calm.

• 18:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Calm is, calm is, those are what long-term relationships look like. But I think people

• 18:20Lewis Howes?

  They want the chaos.

• 18:20Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They want, the chaos becomes, is equal, it's not even that they want the chaos, it's that chaos equals love. They want love. And so it's a rewriting of that, love is stable.

• 18:31Lewis Howes?

  Why do they, why do people, you know, I'm as guilty as anyone in the past for this, why do people feel loved or think it's love when there's explosiveness? Or there's chaos, or there's someone screaming at you and then apologizing? And it's just this pattern, why does that feel like love? Is that because we maybe saw this as a model, as our, as our childhood from our parents? Or why is that, why do some people feel that's love where others conceive? That's not healthy, I don't want that.

• 19:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Well, I mean, part of it goes to this concept of trauma bonding, which is sort of the core of the narcissistic relationship. And in the trauma bond is, is formed by a relationship that has an alternation of good and bad, hot and cold, high and low. So in a way, you're sort of chasing a high. Because where there's a bad day, guess what's going to come again? Makeup sex, or whatever makeup looks like, right? Because as a kid, what it was, was that you'd live for those good days. Despite all the abuse, then there'd be a fishing trip. Despite all those bad days, then your parent would do some, there'd be something so quirky and fun about them. Or you're like, the day they do something good, now you could go back to constructing the narrative that I come from a normal, happy family. That is the origination of that trauma bond.

• 19:44Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But then, in order to keep the mindset that the relationship's good, you have to justify, justify, justify. You have to make sense of those bad days to fit the good days. So the justification and the denial become big parts of the trauma bonded theme. Now, obviously, that trauma bond is going to play out a lot more powerfully in somebody who has that in their backstory. Because your entire childhood was wired around, how can I get this parent to notice me? How can I be seen? How can I be heard? How can I be cherished? It's about a chase. Because that child was put in the unfortunate position of believing they had to earn that. Or even worse, their needs were shamed and their parent resented them for having needs. So they learn, well, I'm going to be in love. Got to be quiet. Can't bring up my needs.

• 20:28Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  There's going to be bad days, but then there's going to be good days. And those bad days are because, well, maybe I was too demanding. Or, you know, maybe I'm expecting too much. So a lot of it becomes self-blame focused. And that becomes a really profound kind of connective tissue. It's not to say, though, people who... Not everybody who gets into a trauma bonded relationship has that history. They're by far the people who are going to be more vulnerable. But because narcissism is about such a good front game, right? The charm, the charisma, the love bombing. You feel like you're in something really, really special. But the reason narcissistic relationships are so confusing is because there's enough good days to confuse you. And the good days are good.

• 21:13Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 21:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I mean, they're really, really good.

• 21:16Lewis Howes?

  They're over the top.

• 21:17Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, they're over the top. And they sort of feel perfect. And remember...

• 21:21Lewis Howes?

  You try to go back to that, right?

• 21:22Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You go back to it. But the thing we've got to remember is sometimes those good days even stay in there years later. You know, that it's whatever that moment is. And narcissistic relationships are all about alignment. If they're having a good day, right? For whatever... Maybe they had a good day at work. Or maybe they flirted with someone at the gym. You don't know what it is. Then and you

• 21:43Lewis Howes?

  Narcissist.

• 21:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  The narcissist. And you are having, happened to have a good day, something good happened to you. And you're bo- then you're like, they get me and they love me. No, it's just coincidence. A fortunate coincidence. And then, because the narcissist could just as easily have had a bad day. Their car got dinged in the parking lot, their friend got the raise and the promotion and they didn't get it. Angry, angry, angry. You had that same good day. They will invalidate, they will criticize. So it's all about alignment and timing and that alignment is what makes people say, we have such a great relationship. I'm like, it just sounds like luck.

• 22:17Lewis Howes?

  We're so connected, we have great chemistry.

• 22:18Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, it's like you thinking like roulette can be gamed. I'm like, you got lucky on the double zero there.

• 22:23Lewis Howes?

  It's so funny you say that. I mean, I'm gonna start having flashbacks now, memories. Uh, like I did in the last interview where I remember a time for a few years, I had this dream of going to the Olympics. And making, and making the USA Nat- first it was making the USA national team. So I had the opportunity to go to the Olympics.

• 22:44Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  When you said go to the Olympics, I'm like, to watch. So you see, your dreams are up here.

• 22:49Lewis Howes?

  This was 2008, 2008, I watched, um, I, I'd just gotten a ca- I had surgery playing professional football. Broke my wrist. Had a cast on my arm from here to here for six months in this position. Just got it off and the Olympics came on. And so I was kinda down in the dumps because I couldn't train, I couldn't play football anymore. But I was watching Olympics, getting inspired. And I see this sport at like 3 a.m. in the morning that I'd never seen before in my life called team handball.

• 23:17Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:18Lewis Howes?

  It's not well-known in the U.S., but it's a big sport in Europe. It's kinda like water polo on land.

• 23:23Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  On land, yeah.

• 23:24Lewis Howes?

  Yes. With, with no water. And, um, and I watched this and my mind is blown. I'm like, this is incredible. Like, this looks like the sport I should have learned growing up. Like, I'm built for this, I'm the size, I got the speed. Like, this is my game. And it gave me this opening into a new possibility in my life, like, let me research this. Maybe there's a USA team. Maybe I could make the team. Maybe we could qualify for the Olympics. This is what happened in about 10 minutes of watching this sport in 2008. 2000.

• 23:54Lewis Howes?

  Ten rolls around. I moved to New York City to play for a team on Team Handball.

• 24:03Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Wow.

• 24:03Lewis Howes?

  The top team in the country. I moved, New York City's got the best team in the USA for the club teams. I moved there to, literally to go learn this sport for a year.

• 24:16Lewis Howes?

  I meet a girl. And this girl, we have this, you know, kind of this, this chemistry, this connection, all these things in the first like month or whatever, right? But then I start to see the signs later, but I wasn't aware of it. And she knew that this was a part of my dream. And I'd been training this whole year for this chance to make the USA national team. They'd select sixteen Americans, the whole population, to be on the USA national team. Been planning this for two years, training for a year, moved to a new state, new city to practice every week. I get an email and I'm with the, with the person I was with at the time. I get an email that says, "You've been selected to USA national team."

• 24:57Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Congratulations, I'm kind of excited.

• 24:59Lewis Howes?

  I get it, cause I was thinking about it, right? I like, this was something the email was waiting for. "You've been selected, you're going to the Pan American Championships with the national team to compete for our country." And I'm reading this. I'm literally like so vulnerable and in tears, like thinking about this when I'm reading it. And I was with her, she was in the other room and I take it to her, I'm like, "You're not gonna believe what happened. Look at this email." I just got, I'm like so excited. And right away she goes, "Man, I wish my career was doing better right now." There was no congratulations, there was no nothing, it was like, "God, I wish..." She went into a depression, kind of.

• 25:35Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:36Lewis Howes?

  It was like a depression of like, "Oh gosh, I wish I could do this with my career, I wish this is happening and da, da, da." And so I put my attention on her to make sure she was okay, when I'm like, "I've been dreaming about this for two years, I'm busting my, I'd like telling you about this in my mind, but I was like, "Well, let me just make sure her needs are met in this moment and I'll get back to celebrating me one day." And it wasn't ever an acknowledgement of like congratulations, right? Anyways, this happened multiple times in many relationships, similar situations like that. Which I didn't even know that was a sign, right? I was just like, I didn't know until I talked to you, whenever this was, six months ago or something. But... How, you know, I don't even remember where I was going with this, but just I think like

• 26:20Lewis Howes?

  the good days, it's like they had a good day.

• 26:22Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Talking about alignment.

• 26:23Lewis Howes?

  Right, so if they have a bad day, and you have a good day, they're gonna kind of try to take you down, is what you said, right?

• 26:29Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And your, and your story's so interesting too, because who knows if she was having a bad day or not, but your, your good news is always a threat to a narcissistic person.

• 26:38Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 26:39Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Always. So, you know, it's funny, why is that? Because it, remember, at the core of it narcissism's about insecurity, deep, deep insecurity. We always think of these people as having really big self-esteem, they have what we, I can only call it inaccurate self-esteem. They have this sort of falsely grandiose vision of themselves, but at this unprocessed, deep, unconscious level, it's not like they walk around thinking, "I'm really insecure, so I better be grandiose." The insecurity's unprocessed.

• 27:09Lewis Howes?

  They're not even aware of it.

• 27:09Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They're not even aware of it, but it's almost like this nagging thing that's always in the background. So, anything that activates, that sense, like, it's almost like it starts to percolate up out of the groundwater, that's when you'll see all kinds of things, passive aggression, which is what you were up against, sullenness, resentment, sometimes over it's aggression, because they're trying to, to protect themselves against the threat that this, that this insecurity will pop up. That's, that's the dance, right? So, when I've worked with folks who are in narcissistic relationships, listen, people who have been married a long time, or in long-term relationships, or have kids, it's not so easy to say, "Just break up and follow your bliss," it just doesn't work that way.

• 27:54Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And so, I'd say, "Okay, I'm gonna have to give you some strategies to stay in this." And I always call it the good, bad, indifferent rule. Never, ever share, never, ever let the narcissistic person be the first person you share your good news with, never. You should've called your bestest person at that point.

• 28:12Lewis Howes?

  Who's gonna celebrate you.

• 28:13Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Who would've been like, "Oh, my gosh, we all got him," right? Like, the good thing happens, and you're like, "All right." To this person and they're like, oh my gosh, 20 bottles of champagne. We're having a party. That's who you tell first. Then you got your other people are gonna be happy for you. And then, and only then, do you tell the narcissistic person. Because at that point, you felt that your good news was held and cherished and celebrated. And you just feel happy. You shared it with people who are able to mirror it back to you. That feeling of goodness. That's what parenting is about, by the way. Your kid says, look mommy, I got an A on my test. Honey, that's so great. Not like, oh, I'm too busy to deal with that right now. And that's what kids who have narcissistic parents get a lot of, like, I don't have time for that right now.

• 28:55Lewis Howes?

  And their success is never enough.

• 28:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes, it's never enough.

• 28:57Lewis Howes?

  What else do I need to do to get the attention?

• 29:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right. But in adulthood, that mirroring matters. And then, once you do that, and you roll up to the narcissistic person, like, I wish my life was like that. In some ways, you've been so buoyed, that it'd be like, you know what? Like, you don't even, at some point, you're like, whatever. You know, like, I hope it is too.

• 29:16Lewis Howes?

  You've been celebrated enough.

• 29:17Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You feel good. You feel seen. And that's the good. The bad, same thing. Never go to a narcissistic person first with your bad stuff.

• 29:26Lewis Howes?

  What happens when you share bad news?

• 29:28Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They'll either feel inconvenienced, frustrated, what do you want me to do about this? Oh my gosh, like, oh, I'm under, I have so many things are being asked of me. They go into their victim thing.

• 29:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you figure it out.

• 29:40Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, you figure it out, like, how, and you feel, let's say it's like really bad news. Like, I found out my mom is really sick, or I, um, you know, it turns out they're gonna be downsizing my division. And I'm probably gonna be in that first round of layoffs, or whatever it is. You know, you find out your friend is ill, or you're ill, or something. More often than not, the narcissistic person, it's almost like they don't wanna hear that there's like real stuff that happens in the world that has nothing to do with them. Your mother being sick has nothing to do with them. So they're really not that interested. And that you might interrupt them and bring some like negative juju into their life, they don't want that. So I always say to people, have your people to take your bad news too. So people can offer empathy, compassion, emotional support, practical support.

• 30:24Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And only as an afterthought, will you say, Because now you've been held, you've been supported. You might have the strength to say at some point like, yeah, my mom's sick. And they're gonna have whatever foolish, you know, unempathic response they have. But now you've been supported. So that takes us to the indifferent. And I tell everyone in a narcissistic relationship, keep it in your phone. Make a little list of completely vacuous topics. The weather. They're building a new house across the way. Can you believe that new grocery store is coming into town? Back to the weather. You avoid anything that's a third rail, that's a sensitive issue. That, or where their negativity could hurt you.

• 31:07Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 31:07Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So then you can kind of keep the trains running on time. Like, can you believe this heat? And it's great, I live out in the San Fernando Valley. So we always go, can you believe this heat? Every, in fact, all the narcissistic people out there are gonna know now. I think they're narcissistic because that's how I always start the conversation. Can you believe this heat? But because there's nothing else to say.

• 31:25Lewis Howes?

  So what do you say with the narcissist then? What can you talk about? You're like, you've taken out almost everything you can talk about.

• 31:29Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Can you believe this heat?

• 31:30Lewis Howes?

  But if you live with someone and you have kids with them and you have to interact.

• 31:34Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Procedural stuff. And I think that what happens is people want a real partner. They want someone to share stuff with them. Like, you don't, you're never gonna have that here.

• 31:41Lewis Howes?

  With a narcissist.

• 31:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You're never gonna have it, so give it up. So you're just gonna have to recognize, it might be things like, who's taking him to soccer today? And if they say, I'm too busy to take him to soccer. Realistic expectations, of course, are too busy. Say, piece of cake, I got it. I always tell folks, if you're in a narcissistic relationship, you need to plan A, B, C, and D. Because they are always going to let you down.

• 32:02Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh. Okay, so you mentioned a little moment ago about there are certain situations where you're not gonna be able to get out of a relationship and follow your bliss.

• 32:11Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, no, you can't.

• 32:12Lewis Howes?

  But is there a world where you could at some point? As opposed to saying, I've gotta live for the next 30 years with this person or 10 years with this person? That sounds like a... You know, a free prison sentence. You're in the free world, but you're living in prison inside in your own home. That doesn't seem like a healthy lifestyle.

• 32:33Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's not. Because I work with such varied audiences, I'm very, very mindful of how painful it is for people to say, if you don't go then. Now, I've said to them, if you don't go, there's limits to how far I can take you on this growth process. Because you're still constantly having this echoing voice that invalidates you and reminds you of that invalidation, you know, in the next room. So there's only but, there's only so much, but there's still a lot of growth. I mean, your life almost becomes a series of silent acts of rebellion. You know, some people, literally, I know some folks told me, you know what? I was inspired by what you said, so I just went to an online university and I got my degree and I never told them.

• 33:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 33:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And I was like, that to me is a triumph.

• 33:16Lewis Howes?

  It's like inner victories, yeah.

• 33:17Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That's a triumph.

• 33:17Lewis Howes?

  It's like everything is a little game for yourself to like find your own joy.

• 33:20Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Correct. And they, or they volunteer in their community and what they recognize is that the volunteering is joyful. The narcissist would say to them, why would you want to help a bunch of people who are too stupid to help themselves? They, if anything, they'll say their horrible negativity only reinforces that I'm totally right about them. I'm not wrong about this. I'm not a bad person for recognizing that they're toxic and I can go out and do something that fills my soul. But you're right, it's only a partial victory. But if you can get out, get out.

• 33:52Lewis Howes?

  Right, okay, so let me ask you this. So, again, I know there are certain cultures and situations and countries that probably have harder restrictions of removing yourself. So, but, okay, so let's figure this out. It's gonna be painful to stay in the marriage if there's with a narcissistic person. It's gonna be extremely painful to leave for potentially years, where you might have to find a whole new community, move, you know, build friendships and relationships again, be on your own, all that stuff.

• 34:25Lewis Howes?

  But if there's light at the end of the tunnel when you leave, you know, three, five, seven years out, as opposed to being in the relationship for that time, is that the better solution?

• 34:36Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You know, I don't, I think that here in, it's so hard to say because if you, somebody said to me, tell me the best solution, take away all the contextual factors, it's obviously not to be in such a relationship. When we talk about how people manage themselves in these relationships, there's all these forms of contact you can have. And the most extreme is no contact, which means done. You block them, you cut them out, you don't speak to them, you don't take their calls, nada, nothing. And you know what? There's new, there's places I've actually seen the hard data on this. Everyone will say, no contact, awesome. Like, I, I feel so much better now that they no longer exist in my life. But it's a really limited strategy. If it's your family member, if it's someone you co-parent with,

• 35:20Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  it's somebody you might still have professional contact with. So that's such an extreme that it might work like somebody, let's say someone dated someone and you don't have a ton of mutual friends and you move away physically, no contact can happen. And let me tell you, I've done no contact. Phew, it's good, okay? Then there's low contact. Now, low contact can be done in a couple of different ways, but it tends to be, you know what I'd say, more perfunctory. You don't really engage with them. It's just really like, just sort of, if, let's say it's a family member, you've decided like, okay, this person's so bad for me, I want nothing to do with them, but your beloved cousin's getting married. You may just, you say to beloved cousin, just whatever the opposite side of the room preceding me is, I'd appreciate it.

• 36:04Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Maybe they come and talk to you and you give them very simple, yes, no, kids are great responses. You go to the bathroom a lot when they approach you. People are gonna think you have some sort of digestive problem, but it's a great out. But you step away and if it gets to be too much, you give yourself permission to leave. So it is, you know, low contact doesn't mean like you, they come to you and you don't speak to them. You might say, oh, hi, yeah, mhm, kids are great. Yeah, mhm, it's been a long time. Yeah, I actually gotta run to the restroom. It's one of those. And so, or I got, I gotta run, I've gotta call or whatever. So. You find your ways to maintain, and then you won't have contact with them maybe for ten more years until there's another wedding or funeral or something like that. So that's more of the low contact.

• 36:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And you know, and then there's all these techniques like gray rock and yellow rock, like all these techniques to figure out ways to communicate. But the tool I give people, and I think maybe I talked about this last time, I don't remember, but it's something I call, don't go deep with them. Which means don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, and don't personalize. And I, it's a mantra, like, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize, deep.

• 37:10Lewis Howes?

  What happens if you do any of those?

• 37:12Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  If you defend, you're gonna get in the mud with them and they like it and you get dirty. So that doesn't make sense. So you don't want, if you defend, it's just gonna escalate and gaslight and fight and, and there's no point, because you're not gonna end at any kind of sane, rational place. When you explain, they will definitely gaslight you. So there's no point to that. Engaging means, don't get into a conversation with them. Do not ask them what they think of something. Do not tell them that good news. And don't personalize, this isn't about you. They do this to anyone in your position. They're gonna manipulate, it's what they do. And so, they're going to lie, they're going to gaslight, it's just how their personalities are organized. It's not about you, there's nothing you can do to change this. Not you, not me, not anybody.

• 37:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And so, that's the, it's a really fun, then that's what we call radical acceptance. Nothing you can do.

• 38:02Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man, so true.

• 38:04Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It won't, it ain't gonna change, and that's not because, and a lot of people say, well, it's not gonna change because I'm not enough. It's not gonna change because it's not gonna change.

• 38:12Lewis Howes?

  No one's ever enough for them. So, okay, let me ask you a practical question. There's different stages of being in a relationship, right? You meet someone, you go on a date with them, that's a certain stage of a relationship. You date for weeks, months, however long, before you say, we're gonna be committed or exclusive with each other, right? Then there's a, you know, a marriage commitment and that type of relationship.

• 38:37Lewis Howes?

  What would be in your mind the key things that an individual would should really focus on seeing or experiencing from the person that they want to date before they say, I want to get committed and exclusive with you, not before marriage, but just, okay, I feel comfortable enough to be in exclusive committed relationship with you. What are those key things you would need to see or experience to make sure you feel comfortable taking that step?

• 39:03Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Watch how they respond to stress or frustration. If you only had one thing you can do, it's that. Because that's the test, right? Do they start, do they become really dysregulated, impulsive, say really awful things and then, you know, I was just really stressed out, you know, because if they did it there, they're always going to do that because they're on their best behavior in this early dating relationship.

• 39:30Lewis Howes?

  They'll do it worse in the future.

• 39:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You know, how are they handling themselves in a, in a traffic jam? How do they handle themselves when you get to the restaurant and they say, oh, we've lost your reservation, you know, because you really are looking for the person who says, you know what, you up for a fast food because there's a place across the street and you know what, it could be the dinner where you fall in love with that person over your, you know, over your cheeseburgers.

• 39:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:53Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Exactly. And so, but if that person makes a, do you know who I am? Oh, let me tell you, Yelp review, blah, blah, blah. You're going to be sorry, blah, blah, blah. No, I mean, and I think those, those situations manifest pretty early on and the trick is because everything else is sort of new and sparkly and fun. People want to say, oh, they just had a bad day.

• 40:15Lewis Howes?

  They have bad days all the time.

• 40:16Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I would say that's your, especially that early in the game, that's your

• 40:20Lewis Howes?

  First few months.

• 40:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Runaway kind of like, kind of, or not even runaway to say, yeah, just sort of slowly start distancing. Some people need to see two of those events. Okay. So, great. There's your, you'll get your second soon enough. And so I would say that's a really, that's a big one. I think other things you want to look at are things like are around equity, equitability and balance in the relationship. How often are you knocking yourself out for them? So in other words, you're shaping your schedule to them. You're shaping your preferences to them. You're giving up things for them and yet they still make it sound like you, you give up maybe a I don't know, you were invited to a old friend's birthday party. It was gonna be a girls' night out.

• 41:06Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And they doubt your commitment, like, oh, really? It's your friends instead of me? And then you end up canceling on the friends and you go out with them. And they'll say, isn't this so much more fun? So they make it seem like your sacrifice was actually good for you. That's something else you could see early in the game. You know, especially narcissistic people do tend to like to control the narrative. So they will, there will be some isolating happening. If you feel that you're not, you don't feel comfortable saying, I'm gonna go see my friends. Or, you know, this is, I wanna spend time alone with my sister, or something like that. And they pathologize that. Especially when it's early, this is sort of a process for you.

• 41:48Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And if they're trying to annex all of your time, that's a sign too, that you need to pay attention to.

• 41:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, if they're trying to take you from your friends and family.

• 41:55Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But sometimes it's not even that obvious. It's more of a, why am I, why can't I come? Or they doubt your commitment. And so it's not as like, you're not seeing your friends. It's, you know, you spend a lot of time with your friends. Like, you know, maybe, maybe this isn't the right time in your life for a relationship. I get that, I got that. So they play that game. And then you're thinking, no, I'm kind of really into this person.

• 42:18Lewis Howes?

  So they're not angry at you, but they're doing it in a covert way, yeah.

• 42:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  No, they doubt, they doubt your commitment. And because people wanna prove their commitment, right? And they know, I'm really committed to this. Okay, you know, just I find it interesting that on a Saturday night, that's what you chose. Even though you've told them weeks ago, and then you give in.

• 42:37Lewis Howes?

  So look out for those two things. It's interesting because I'm a, you know, every time you say something like this, I'm reminded of the past of like, okay, all these stressful situations. But with Martha, I talk a lot about Martha on the show, because she's been amazing for me. But with Martha, we, we had an experience, we went on a trip within the first like month, right? Of kind of knowing each other and dating. And we were supposed to go to Vegas. And we had flights booked, but for whatever reason, all the flights that day like got canceled and we couldn't get there for like the event. We're going to see an event until like the next morning on the flight and we're gonna miss it. And so I'm coming to her, kind of bringing some, a little bit of this PTSD.

• 43:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:20Lewis Howes?

  Remnants of like, hope she's gonna be okay, you know, is she gonna be upset, this flights, this. And I bring her and say, hey, the flights are not, you know, happening. We could try to take a later flight. But we may not make it in time for the event. What do you wanna do? She said, let's just drive.

• 43:36Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, if this girl's got it going on, she would offer to drive.

• 43:41Lewis Howes?

  Oh, it's no worries. Like, let's just drive. Where I was so used to people being like, well, I need first class and I needed this and I, you know, this kind of like, don't you know who I am type of mentality. She was like, let's just, you wanna drive? Kind of like fun with it. And I was like, uh, you sure you're okay with that? And she was like, yeah, let's go. And I was like, cool. Let's jump. So we jumped. We just grabbed our bags. We packed. We went in and we drove. And it had the most incredible five hour drive. There was traffic and it was on a Friday night and it was like, whatever, stressful, but we had so much fun. I was like, this girl's got something.

• 44:12Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah.

• 44:13Lewis Howes?

  She's got something going on. And it's, and I think when you travel with someone, you can see these stressful experiences.

• 44:18Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes, I do agree that if you travel with someone, you can see a lot. And that's what I'm saying, that stress can come out there too. But I do think it's, it's almost a way to create a living lab and create, set up a trip in the first three months of the relationship. It doesn't have to be elaborate. It could be something as quick as Vegas. Could be a weekend trip. It doesn't have to be like two weeks somewhere. Watch how they do. Because I will tell you, that's the test. Somebody who can be chill while they travel, done. That's, that's one of, it's almost like a final exam.

• 44:45Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 44:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Of the early part of the relationship. Yeah.

• 44:47Lewis Howes?

  Before you exclusively commit.

• 44:49Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And again, for people to know, this doesn't mean you have to have air tickets and this. It could really be like a road trip. It could be a camping trip. It could be any number of things, but like a few days where it's really just you and them and there's, because when you travel, inevitably, it's something. Right? And to watch how you manage that. It's a great test because if it's a. Narcissistic person, if everything isn't just so perfect. And the thing is, you've got to watch how they gaslight, try to gaslight it away. If you start getting a little leery on, "This is not okay." They're going to make it into, "Don't you understand? I wanted to make it perfect for you, okay? I just wanted it to be a great trip." You know, and so, because if you might be pushing back and saying,

• 45:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  "You know, the way you were acting under stress, I just tried to make it right for you." And now, you're feeling so guilty because they were trying to make it right for you. So I will tell folks this. If you're noticing there's some of those early patterns, and you decide to distance from this relationship because it feels like there's some red flags, don't tell them the why.

• 45:51Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 45:52Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, this ain't your, you ain't their teacher, their life coach. You're trying to get out of this relationship. Because if you tell them the why, they're going to gaslight you.

• 46:01Lewis Howes?

  They're going to say, "Well, I was stressed."

• 46:03Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I was stressed, I was trying to do something nice for you. You're being too particular, you're unappreciative, exactly. You're sensing a red flag. You can make it about yourself and say, "Yeah, you know, whatever your reasons are, I think work's getting to be a lot for me, or maybe this isn't the right time for me to have a relationship." And people say, "Well, Dr. Ramani, isn't that a missed opportunity?" No, they ain't listening to you. So really, if you say to them, "This is why," it'll be gaslight city, and you're going to stay in it. Because I think people feel like, "Well, I need to tell them, and maybe they'll improve." They're not going to improve, that's the radical example.

• 46:40Lewis Howes?

  Right. What about if, what if someone feels just stuck in a relationship? Maybe there's narcissistic tendencies, maybe not. But they feel stuck in a relationship. What's a good conversation that someone should have with their partner to evaluate where it's at and how they can get unstuck? Whether there's narcissism or not, what's your opinions on that?

• 47:04Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I mean, it's a different, it's a different scenario, right? Because I think in a...

• 47:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  In a narcissistic relationship, you're working for survival. Right, so you may not even, I have to tell you, people in narcissistic relationships may not initially feel stuck. They may be like, okay, it's like the MacGyver of relationship situations, like what kind of duct tape do I need to use?

• 47:24Lewis Howes?

  Fixing everything.

• 47:24Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  To fix this thing, right? So you're doing, doing, doing. Where people feel stuck in a narcissistic relationship is when they get in too deep. Share a place, kids, marriage, that's where the stuckness happens. Because I think by and large, and then, and then honestly, there's one big interesting thing with narcissistic relationships is the fear that the narcissist is going to change for the next person.

• 47:47Lewis Howes?

  Oh, never.

• 47:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Because there's a lot of stuff they like about that person. They're really attracted to them, they have great sex with them, they

• 47:54Lewis Howes?

  Charismatic.

• 47:54Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They're charismatic, they have shared interests, people love them, they've got a really amazing career, job, status, whatever. Whatever it may be, there's a lot of magnetic qualities. And so, that idea that the new person is going to get, you know, Mr. Magnetic is actually really overwhelming. But, in a sense of stuckness, it's an interesting issue, and it's something I've encountered even with couples I've done therapy with. And it's, you know, listen, there's, there is the, you know, there's sort of the, kind of the standard advice around like, how do you, how do you start dating again in this relationship? How do you keep that piece of it alive? How do you keep giving it some level of priority status?

• 48:37Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  How do you make sure you do communicate, make the time? Like, part of that is, I mean, mindfulness has such an important role in human relationships. Not just intimate relationships, all relationships. Everybody's talking about mindfulness, mindfulness, mindfulness. It means paying attention to what's in front of you. And that means that it's, it can be the littlest things about, oh my gosh, that's right, he had an appointment, he had a meeting at two. You text him at three, like, hey, how did that meeting go? I was just thinking of you. That stuff becomes the stuff of the relationship. And then saying, hey, you had a tough one today, let's cook this, go here, pop the champagne. It's that idea that someone's noticing you.

• 49:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So, mindfulness can be one piece of the stuckness. The other is What do you have shared vision? I mean, we talk about this in the workplace all the time. But is that there? Because it does, and that doesn't even mean there's something wrong with someone if they don't have shared vision. But sometimes if you don't have that, that can contribute to the stuckness because you're not working towards a common goal. Right? If you have a company and one person's like, I want to sell lots of hand lotion. And the other person's like, I really envision us as being a salsa company. You're going to be stuck.

• 49:53Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 49:54Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right? Someone's chopping tomatoes, someone's like putting on all this lotion. So you're going to be stuck. So it's the salsa hand lotion of it all. Like, one of you may be wanting to work towards family and children. The other one wants to travel the world. Both people are afraid to talk about it. And so how do you get unstuck? You actually go to the edge of the cliff and recognize that if you open up and they go, because that's the fear, that fear of abandonment, that fear of being alone, that fear of loss, that if you can go to the edge of the cliff and say, this is actually what I want, and can tolerate that early in the game, especially if you don't have stuff like kids and commitments and all of that,

• 50:36Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  where you spoke in your truth and they can say, that's not what I want, and not personalize it. Because as kids, it's almost like the equivalent of bringing our picture to our parents and say, look what I drew, and the parent not caring. Or even worse, the parent's saying, you're not my kid anymore because that's a bad choice.

• 50:55Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my God, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right? And so the idea that we could bring our truth to someone and they'd say, yeah, no, that's not what I want. It starts becoming the sunk cost fallacy, which kills most relationships. Right? That's the idea of, I've already put all this resource into something. That's how people get stuck, is the sunk cost fallacy. And you've got to remember, behavioral economics often does have some of these answers. You've already put the money in, you got a human experience, don't put more into this. And so then you have the conversation. And I've actually seen some people have beautiful ends to their relationship where they say, I, you know, I still have this, I'm not ready for X or Y. I don't want to do X or Y.

• 51:38Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That's not the direction I want to go in and they managed to salvage friendships and genuine curiosity in each other. And then that and then that's that.

• 51:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 51:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But it's scary.

• 51:48Lewis Howes?

  It takes a lot of courage for someone to end a relationship. No matter what type of, you know.

• 51:53Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And I wouldn't even say it's ended. I think it's it takes a lot of courage to speak your truth in a relationship. It's not even the ending. It's saying, what I want in this relationship is I want us to say, I want to have kids. I want to live. I want to move out of the city. I want to put our focus there and the other person might say, I don't want those things. And that's when you say, okay, then we're on very different paths. But it's so easy for me to sit here in a studio and intellectually say this. I'm let's say I'm a thirty nine year old woman. That's not the what then? What then?

• 52:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 52:29Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You know, now you're thinking, oh, my God, I have to I want a child. This is this is what's in front of me. But I'm good. And then they start doing the math. I'm gonna meet.

• 52:36Lewis Howes?

  How many years?

• 52:37Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Da da da, ba dee da da. Now I'm forty two.

• 52:39Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna find someone, yeah. Is there someone better than this? Yeah, all these things.

• 52:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And it's not even like or not even better as much as somebody who's more on my path.

• 52:47Lewis Howes?

  Align.

• 52:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  This is how it happens because we do forget that there is a sort of a biological piece to all of this. I mean reproductive technology is changing that and some women out there and I women close to me have said, you know what? I want the kid. I'm not so sure I want the relationship. And should I fall in love with someone? I don't want to fight with them for over custody. So women are having their own children without a partner and saying, I now now motherhood's out of the game. It's actually easier to date. And now I'm gonna meet a man. He's he wants a woman with a child or he doesn't. If he doesn't, he's not my guy.

• 53:19Lewis Howes?

  Nice.

• 53:20Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But I'll never have to fight this guy for custody of this kid. It's a new world and people who are making allowances for not wanting to get stuck in toxic relationships are going different path. And I know men who have done that too. Men who have gotten surrogates and said, I want to be a father.

• 53:35Lewis Howes?

  Without the.

• 53:36Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They no, they look, they find a they find this, I'm gonna get an egg.

• 53:39Lewis Howes?

  Donor eggs.

• 53:40Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They get donor eggs and they they find surrogates. And they're like, I want to be a being a father to me was foremost. If I meet and fall in love with someone, super, but I want to be a father. It's not cheap though. So these are very privileged folks who can do this. But the fact is that. There are paths forward in a way. And I think that the amount of damage, Louis, that people being raised in toxic relationships, having witnessed toxic relationships, may be one of the biggest psychological crises that most people bring into adulthood. So I think making different choices.

• 54:14Lewis Howes?

  It's how we were raised, yes. And not breaking the cycle.

• 54:17Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  We have crappy blueprints.

• 54:18Lewis Howes?

  Very crappy.

• 54:21Lewis Howes?

  I have this, uh, I don't know if I want to call it a formula, but just some steps that I've been developing through my own healing journey and reflection of previous relationships and now being in a very, I would call, conscious, healthy relationship. I would love for you to either pick apart or validate or add to, or whatever you want to, these kind of steps that I've been putting together myself that I think have helped me in this transition towards what to create when stepping into a new relationship. The first one is for a conscious, healthy relationship. The first one is you working on your healing journey before you get into it. Or if you're into it, start it while you start the relationship,

• 55:04Lewis Howes?

  being in a healthy, focusing on a whole, healthy body, mind, spirit, and soul. Healing the past and being on that journey. Step one. Without that, I feel like it's not a strong foundation, right? Because you're going to be more susceptible. Step two is, I don't know if this, for me, feel free to pick a hole at this. Step two would be to do the love language test with the person you're dating and to see if you're in alignment with the way you receive and give love naturally. I think in previous relationships, for whatever reason, I chose women that didn't receive the love that I naturally gave. They liked acts of service and gifts. Where I was like, I don't care about giving someone a gift because it doesn't, it's not value for me.

• 55:49Lewis Howes?

  I like praising someone and touching someone.

• 55:52Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Words of affirmation, guy.

• 55:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and touching them and giving affection and telling them how much, you know, I appreciate them. But they wanted a gift to feel loved because that was their blueprint. So I was always doing something that was more work for someone to feel loved. And in the current relationship, we have like identical love languages in order. So we both naturally show up who we are and feel loved by the other person. So it's just less friction. I don't have to think, I need to buy a gift or I need to do this every week that I normally wouldn't want to do. That's number two. Number three, four, and five is getting clear with your honest truth about your values, your vision, and your lifestyle.

• 56:32Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah.

• 56:32Lewis Howes?

  Kind of like what you were saying, like if your if your values are out of alignment, it's gonna be challenging. If your vision is, you know, I wanna make hot sauce and you wanna make shoes. You know, we have a different shared vision of our relationship. And if you wanna live in the city and I wanna live in the country with the lifestyle, there's gonna be some friction there. Number number six, for me, this is, this was a non-negotiable entering this current relationship. Maybe this is too tough, but for me, I was like, we need to enter a relationship in therapy. And start the relationship in therapy so that we can communicate in a cautious way with a third party about agreements. You know, there's gonna be things that come up. There's no perfect relationship. You're gonna have a different lifestyle, this and this.

• 57:16Lewis Howes?

  But can we create agreements together so there's alignment on our communication, our agreements to just minimize some friction? Not have expectations, but get clear on agreements and a standard we both have. And then with that, going through those first six things, choosing to fully accept the person for who they are. Once you've gotten clear on all these things over a period of time, saying, okay, I'm not expecting you to change into a potential in the future. But do I accept who you are from your values, your vision, your lifestyle, your your healing journey? We're doing therapy together. Can I accept this person? My girlfriend, she's an actress, so she does movies. She's on set.

• 57:59Lewis Howes?

  She's kissed guys on movies in the past, and maybe she will in the future. I had to be like, do I accept this is who she is? Or am I gonna need to change her and say, you can't do this anymore?

• 58:08Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Correct, correct.

• 58:10Lewis Howes?

  So I said, I fully accept you, you know? And and this process has been very powerful for us. I'm seeing from my personal experience, what's worked for me. Is there anything that you would poke a hole in or add or remove from these kind of seven things that I've been, you know, kind of playing with myself?

• 58:28Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So it's almost like I'd make a step zero.

• 58:30Lewis Howes?

  Okay, give it to me.

• 58:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And a step zero is addressing legacy issues in your own traumas and all of that, right? Because this, the word healing is so ephemeral and it's so sort of nonspecific. But when I think of hundreds, probably not thousands of people whose narcissistic abuse in intimate relationship stories I've heard.

• 58:53Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It was a...

• 58:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They went into the relationship...

• 59:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And actually, I take that back because some folks enter these relationships confidently. It's not like they entered in deficit territory. But it was, for a lot of people, for many people, their own backstory shaped what they thought they even deserved in a relationship. And I will tell you this, and that part of that step zero is, how do you reconcile yourself with societal messages? You had said something earlier that made me think about this too, which is this idea of the romance and how we view relationships early on. We're very programmed, whether we like to think that we are or we're not. We can, you know, everyone brings up the Disney movies, but it's beyond Disney movies. It's about what a love story is supposed to look like, what at least a heteronormative relationship is supposed to look like.

• 59:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You know, we have these... And this is where we get this idea of a gift, like, what do you... How many people say, "You mean he didn't give you anything for Valentine's Day?" And I've had to say that, and I'm in a relationship, but I said, "If he brought home something home for Valentine's Day, I would slap that man silly." Because, I figure, "Why are you wasting your money for a fool? But the day after, the candy's off 50%, so you're welcome to go to CVS and grab me a box, honey." So it's a...

• 1:00:08Lewis Howes?

  Because your value was something different.

• 1:00:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right, yeah, so it's that... But beyond that is that we get this message of what it's supposed to be, and when it's not that, we think, "Well, there's got to be something wrong with me." And so I do think that it's a... There's some pushing back on existing sort of societal messaging. There is being aware of one's own legacy issues. What are you trying to work through? One's own history of trauma and those kinds of adverse experiences from early in life. To me, those are sort of like the step zero. Before the step one.

• 1:00:45Lewis Howes?

  So being aware of those things, talking to your partner about them?

• 1:00:49Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  No, I think that's the word. Step zero is almost like before you ever meet any partner.

• 1:00:54Lewis Howes?

  And part of me is thinking, you know, the healing journey is being aware of those things, addressing them, reflecting on them, and then starting to integrate it, some type of therapeutic healing process.

• 1:01:04Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And then I think that the other thing I'd say is the, going back to that societal message, is the abyss at all. I think a lot of people would hear a list like that and be like, homie, you're high. Like, if I do this, I am gonna be alone for the rest of my damn life.

• 1:01:18Lewis Howes?

  But I was willing to do that.

• 1:01:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You were.

• 1:01:19Lewis Howes?

  Because I had felt so much suffering inside from the pain. I was like, I'd rather be alone with a cat and dog.

• 1:01:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Correct.

• 1:01:25Lewis Howes?

  Be peaceful.

• 1:01:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right.

• 1:01:26Lewis Howes?

  Than be in a relationship where I have to, you know, give up who I am every day and walk on eggshells.

• 1:01:32Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But that means that people have to understand that giving up who I am means that they value the who I am. That that's actually something to give up. And I think that what, I wish this happened in school. I wish that a significant part of the curriculum was on the who am I? What am I about? What do I stand for? What matters to me? What are my values? I got a, I got a text from my daughter two days ago. She's in, in college right now, still trying to figure out her major. And she texts me and she's like, Mom, I've decided I'm gonna pursue a career in the arts. And I text her back, that is absolutely magnificent. And she texts me back, said no mother ever. Do you realize that I'm probably never gonna have a lot of money? I said, girl, I've been broke since I was 50. So I

• 1:02:17Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  said, and I wasn't happy. So I said, if you wake up every day excited about what you do, you're good. And so what my daughter was doing was she was unfurling herself in front of me. Now, inside, am I thinking like, you know, rice and beans?

• 1:02:32Lewis Howes?

  She might have a tough life.

• 1:02:32Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Studio apartment? Okay, you could do that. You could do that. That's all. But you know what? If you're doing what you love, that rice and beans and that studio apartment's gonna be a-okay.

• 1:02:41Lewis Howes?

  It's gonna feel like a filet mignon.

• 1:02:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And she's loved. You know that this is not like, how dare you take this expensive education to this. You are loved and I want you to be you and I want you to find your path. You know, that's definitely not how I was parented, you know, and that's not how a lot of people.

• 1:02:58Lewis Howes?

  You're loved if you do what we tell you to do.

• 1:02:59Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You're loved if the word doctor is in front of your name. They're like, I don't care what damn way you get to that, you're gonna be a doctor.

• 1:03:05Lewis Howes?

  Here's the funny thing, you, the doctor's in front of your name, do you feel loved? Or did you feel loved after you got that accomplishment?

• 1:03:11Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Um, no, and I think I became the wrong kind of doctor. I think they had the whole M D thing in mind. But you know, I also understood where they came from as immigrants in the generation they came. They really did believe, they said, no one in this country is gonna take you seriously. You know, when they look at your face. So they said, at least with the doctor, you're gonna get a little respect when they say your name. So I'm like, okay, I could work with that. But the fact is, I did think like, oh, they're gonna love me more if I do this? No, they had their own story. But I think that for, and in bringing in my daughter is like, she's trying to figure out who she is. Who are you? What do you stand for? And that, that idea, what are your personal values? Like we, I, I do leadership training with folks and you actually, they actually take a values deck of cards.

• 1:03:52Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And you realize like, whereas you're, you're, if you and I did that extra, we should do that one. We should have that episode, I should bring in my values card. Let's do that, for sure, I'm gonna bring them in and we're both gonna do it. And then I think you put your top fifteen and you take a look at them, right? And so, ours are gonna be completely different. And yet, I adore you, you're a friend of mine, all of that, but we'll have very, and you know what? I'm gonna get your own deck, take it home, do it with Martha.

• 1:04:20Lewis Howes?

  Well, it's funny you say that because before we got committed, and maybe you think I'm high because these, these things were like important for me because I was like, I'd rather scare her away from being intentional about my communication and my values and my vision and who I am or what I want to create in this world, than attract someone on a false foundation.

• 1:04:39Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So I wanna push back on your language there. I wanna scare her away. How interesting that you still view that.

• 1:04:45Lewis Howes?

  Scare her away, but make sure that we're the right match.

• 1:04:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right, but you're, but let's, language matters. I'm gonna scare her away. The real Louis is scary, is sort of that and that. You know, that's sort of, there's a certain ingrained assumption that if I'm me, that is going to scare her rather than simply, I'm gonna show her the real me and let's see if that's a fit. So I hear some unconscious bias within you towards that.

• 1:05:08Lewis Howes?

  I like that, I like that, I'll start correcting myself, that's good. So I wanted to share her with the real me and be honest about all these things that I wanted to create in my life, unapologetically, let's say that. I wanted to be unapologetic about what I wanted to create. And so before we got together, you know, got into a committed exclusive, you know, dating experience, we had, we'd had an amazing few months already, like so many trips and things and it was just like peaceful, right? And so I took her to Sedona and I took her up a, a vortex, right? Like this kind of little mountain vortex in Sedona.

• 1:05:50Lewis Howes?

  And I had a workbook for us, a journal. And I gave it to her, I put some music on and I said, listen, I want to do a values exercise with you. Good for you. It was kind of like the value deck, but I said, I want you, I put some music on, some gentle music, we're up, the sun is setting. We're on this energy vortex. I said, I want you to be so honest and authentic with what your core values are. And this is, this is many things that are part of your values in your life, you know, and it takes five, 10 minutes, right? I'm not going to look at it, I'm not gonna, you know, you do your thing. I do that, she writes it. I, then I, I said, give me a blank piece of paper. And I take it and I do the same exercise. And I said, now I want us to look at them side by side.

• 1:06:32Lewis Howes?

  Without a bias, without me seeing it first and then me writing down the same things, because I want you to think I have the same values. Are we in alignment? You know, is there alignment? Not perfection is there alignment. Sure. And 80% of the things we wrote down were the same, right? And the 20% that was different, it was like, okay, cool, that's, nothing against that here and nothing against here. And it felt just more organic, right? It felt because we were honest about it. Right. I don't think there were many relations in the past where I talked about values and vision and lifestyle until it was too late. Correct, correct. When we were breaking down and it's like this frustration and we're like, what are we doing? Right. But we've already chemically bonded and we've already like gotten deeper into a commitment.

• 1:07:13Lewis Howes?

  And you're like, well, we just lacked the, I guess, emotional courage or intelligence to have those conversations early.

• 1:07:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And I just don't think a lot of people live their lives from that examined standpoint. Like, what are my values? What do I stand for? If you're like, what do you mean, what do I stand for? I can't afford gas, you know? And so that, and I understand that, right, I'm surviving. You are surviving, but there are certain things you that you're willing to fight, really, really fight for and be. And that you actually do need, you know, like for some people, for example, spirituality may really matter. You cannot minimize that. And if a person for whom spirituality matters enters into a relationship for someone who doesn't, it's not an indictment of either of them, but that may not be a language they can use with each other, which might leave both of them frustrated. But there's, then there's some things that you're not going to fully map on to someone else.

• 1:08:02Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Someone may say, I'm very comfortable with your spiritual world. I'm simply not going to participate in it. And then that will work and they'll say, there's a, I can see how joyful it makes you. But what the, the struggle here though, the main sort of pushback I'm going to have on your list is your list is predicated on two healthy people.

• 1:08:20Lewis Howes?

  That's why step one is both need to be healing.

• 1:08:22Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, and so.

• 1:08:23Lewis Howes?

  And both need to be in a therapeutic journey together. That's why for me, it's, if one person is working on their healing journey and doing some type of therapy consistently with accountability and emotional intelligence and integrating that process, and the other is not, I feel like it's going to be challenging.

• 1:08:39Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I think it's going to be impossible.

• 1:08:41Lewis Howes?

  That's why I said, enter the relationship in therapy, which again, this is maybe hard for people to do.

• 1:08:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I think it's great to enter a relationship in therapy. It's just not a typical third date activity. Hey, instead of going out for drinks, you want to come to therapy?

• 1:08:54Lewis Howes?

  This is after a few months.

• 1:08:55Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But even still, I do think that there's some, there's some, there's a business for me to open, like third date therapy.

• 1:09:02Lewis Howes?

  But here's the thing, what's the alternative? Getting in a relationship where 50%, you know, get, go through divorce within however many years. And then, and then those that stay together more unhappy and then you're suffering and you're feeling trapped and you feel stuck. And it seems like very few in their first marriage make, you know, create a peaceful, thriving life with, you know, challenges and bumps along the way, but it just seems like it's rare. And so if you want that, if you want a healthy, thriving, long-term committed relationship, not perfect, but a healthy one.

• 1:09:36Lewis Howes?

  I feel like it's rare. You gotta do the extreme or the different things that people have never done. I don't know.

• 1:09:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right, but you also have to value yourself and that's the work, right? Is for a person to be able to say, "I am valuable." And if a person can get there, all relationships in some ways have a fighting chance. Not toxic ones, but because they do value themselves. So they're willing to set a boundary. They're willing to extract from unhealthy situations. They are mindful and aware of what another person... You know, they're self-aware. They're able to... And also aware of another person and can make judgments and statements and all of that about the... You know, in an informed, aware manner. And then above all else, they have empathy, right? And either you got it or you don't.

• 1:10:24Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And in the absence of empathy, your whole system goes away, right? Without that, this doesn't work.

• 1:10:30Lewis Howes?

  Compassion and empathy, yeah.

• 1:10:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And I think that there's... You know, I think that a lot of people right now in the world are engaging in pseudo-healing. And I think it's just narcissistic navel gazing and they're actually not really healing.

• 1:10:41Lewis Howes?

  What does that mean, pseudo-healing?

• 1:10:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I think is that they're doing whatever they're doing. Like, "I meditate 75 times a day and I do mindfulness this and I ayahuasca that and blah, blah, blah, blah." And they do all of that, but they're still really going through the world in a rather monstrous, entitled, dismissive, contemptuous way. But it's sort of like, you know, what I call healing porn or recovery porn. Like, "Look at my recovery. I'm so recovery-ish."

• 1:11:05Lewis Howes?

  It's like a spiritual bypass.

• 1:11:06Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Exactly. It's a spiritual bypass. And that gives me pause. So you can't even just say, "Oh, they're doing all this work on themselves." I don't care how much work they're doing on themselves.

• 1:11:14Lewis Howes?

  How are they showing up? Yeah, how are you showing up? What's your thoughts on plant medicine as a professional, you know, in terms of a therapy? In terms of helping people heal?

• 1:11:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right. You know, I'm always... I tread so lightly here because as a licensed person, I always have to recognize that my feedback will always carry weight. I am not... I'm not an M.D., so I can't prescribe medication. I do believe this, though. What's happening in plant medicine, what's happening in the psychedelic world is the future of psychiatry. I do. I think that there's things happening there. The early clinical trials on MDMA and PTSD. We're seeing some really extraordinary things starting to happen. And I'm enough of a cynic, and I don't know, maybe I look like I have a tinfoil hat right on right now, but I do believe Big Pharma doesn't want this to happen. Because I think that there may be a lot of answers lurking there.

• 1:12:08Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But, folks, this is not about you going home and going to a rave and doing some MDMA and saying, "Oh, I'm treating myself for PTSD." No, no, no, no, no, no. The treatment protocols for this have to be done with licensed people in controlled settings. Therapy is happening while the person is using the psychedelic. This is under the most, it has to be done under the most clear, formatted protocol. So this isn't just like, "Party drug time and look at me, I'm treating myself." This is not self-medication. It's none of that. This is highly controlled, the dosages are controlled. But I do think there's a tremendous future there. I would be, it would be arrogant for me to say otherwise.

• 1:12:49Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And when I've talked with folks doing this kind of work, it's impressive what they're showing. I'd like to see more data. I, you know, I'm not, when it comes to what I do from a practice perspective, for example, I can't say to someone, "You need to be on Zoloft." I have to say, "I'm going to give you a referral to a psychiatrist. You will work with that psychiatrist and they will make whatever medication recommendation they have for you." But I can't, the way my license works, make clear recommendations. So if a client of mine says, "I want to explore this," I'll say, "If you do, we just simply need to make sure you're doing it with a licensed," you know, so somebody who's doing this in a very legitimized, thoughtful kind of a way.

• 1:13:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I have a...

• 1:13:32Lewis Howes?

  I feel like I have an open mind to a lot of things, but for whatever reason, I've

• 1:13:40Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna be intentional with my words here.

• 1:13:43Lewis Howes?

  I've met a lot of people, I have a lot of friends who've done lots of different, you know, ayahuasca and plant medicine journeys and experiences and retreats and all these things that swear by it, right?

• 1:13:53Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:54Lewis Howes?

  And people I respect, people that I love and I appreciate and nothing wrong with it.

• 1:14:00Lewis Howes?

  But years down the road, I don't see it having like the healing effect that I'm like, "Okay, well, you keep going to doing it."

• 1:14:08Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right.

• 1:14:09Lewis Howes?

  And, but where is the progress? There's like a week or two of this euphoria.

• 1:14:15Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes.

• 1:14:16Lewis Howes?

  You know, but then you're still struggling and you're still being a bad person, you're still, you know, and it's not for everyone that does this that I know, but I've just experienced that where people swear by it as this euphoria experience, but then six months later, they're suffering again.

• 1:14:30Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right, it's the bypass, and there's the bypass though, right? Because of the work. And I've worked with narcissistic clients, Lewis. It's not like I'm only on the survivor side. I've worked with Mindy in my time. And let me tell you,

• 1:14:42Lewis Howes?

  That's exhausting probably.

• 1:14:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I mean, I feel like Foreman in the ring. And mercifully, I'm actually really good. And, you know, actually more like Ali, because I can get him against the ropes and exhaust them a bit.

• 1:14:50Lewis Howes?

  And you probably created an energy field, so you're not like these.

• 1:14:53Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah. Or I can take the, actually, no. Foreman gets him against the ropes, Ali can take the punches.

• 1:14:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:58Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I can take the punches. And so, it's a, but what I would see is I would say to, because here's the thing, what would be really interesting in being in the room with a narcissistic client who actually saw through the therapy, they didn't drop out. One of the interesting things for me, I was fortunate because I had so, I had no spots in my my practice. And I've completely downsized it and mostly have ended most of it. But I, back in the day, I'd say, "You don't show up, you lose your slot." And you're not in this practice. And I'm like, "Well, I don't want to lose my slot," right? They don't like that, so they'd show up. But the fact is, is that when they'd show up, they would sometimes say like, I would say, "Gosh, that thing you just told me, you said to your wife, like, how did she feel? And how do you..."

• 1:15:39Lewis Howes?

  Did she feel bad?

• 1:15:40Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  No, no, they'd be like, "I didn't really think about it." I'm like, "Let's think about it, shall we?" And that's something called mentalization. When you have someone reflect on what they think, how they think someone feels, how they think their behavior is affecting someone. Like, put yourself in that headspace. So I'd say, "How do you think your wife felt when you did X or Y?" "Oh yeah, I guess that wasn't cool." Okay, so what might you want someone to do for you in that circumstance, right? Get him to do it?

• 1:16:07Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 1:16:08Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And they would sometimes say like, yeah, you're right, that wasn't. So they weren't like punching me in the face. They were just kinda like, okay, that wasn't cool. Would they keep making the same mistakes? Yes. Me repeatedly saying, what do you think she felt? Or sometimes I'd even say like, that's not cool. You know, that was, that, and I would often say, how would you feel if your wife saw the text that you sent? I, I divorced her. Really? You know, and so they, and I said, do you see you have a double standard? Here's my point though, Lois. And one of the most, you know, and this is gonna be sort of a, what do you call it? A composite of multiple people, you know, from a confidentiality perspective.

• 1:16:48Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:16:48Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But I do remember working with a series of people to the end of their, their relationships. And a couple of them said, more than a few said, you're telling me to make my marriage work, I gotta listen to her, talk about her emotional stuff. You know, she's getting old, I don't even like to look at her that much anymore. You're telling me that I can't, like, alright, so I'm having, I'm just having sex with this other person, but you're telling me it hurts her.

• 1:17:12Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:17:13Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And they'll be like, okay, so you're telling me I gotta listen to her and I have to care about her feelings? And, and then, and you're also telling me I have to do this with this other woman I'm having sex with who thinks I'm gonna have a relationship with her, please?

• 1:17:25Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:17:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And like that, okay? So you know what? I remember in one of my more successful, you know, some of the more successful cases, they come back and say, I divorced a wife and I dumped a mistress. Like, if this is, if, I don't wanna be causing this much harm. They weren't sadistic, you know, but, and after the therapy, they're like, okay, if that, if this is never gonna change, I don't, I, I, it's very clear, I wanna do what I wanna do. And I thought that was a win. They're like, I'm not changing. They were even aware they weren't gonna change. Like, I'm not listening to her nonsense and I don't like looking at her and I don't think she's attractive anymore. It's like, yikes.

• 1:17:58Lewis Howes?

  But it's a win for their, for her and for them.

• 1:18:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's a win for the, the other people have been released now.

• 1:18:02Lewis Howes?

  That's big.

• 1:18:03Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Most folks, most narcissistic folks or people with these personalities don't stay in therapy. They're not great candidates for therapy. And my guess is to your point about these people who all slide backwards, there ain't enough ayahuasca in the world to turn these people around. I can tell you that right now. There's not enough MDMA, there's nothing. I think everyone's looking for the empathy pill, right? That's what, there's, that, it's not how it works. You know, there's just no such thing.

• 1:18:31Lewis Howes?

  There needs to be a, you know, this could be something that unlocks you and allows you to start processing and bringing up, you know, potential wounds that you could start to heal.

• 1:18:40Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  To do that work, yes.

• 1:18:42Lewis Howes?

  But you've got to be willing to do some other therapies.

• 1:18:44Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Correct.

• 1:18:44Lewis Howes?

  That's not, you know, external focused around like a medical drug or something.

• 1:18:49Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  No, no.

• 1:18:50Lewis Howes?

  To fix you. You've got to do the inner work to continue that journey.

• 1:18:54Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right, exactly. And that's why I'm saying that any of the protocols that are showing any efficacy again around things like PTSD and everything have to be done in a managed circumstance. And to your point, I remember once meeting a guy swearing by whatever psychedelic they're swearing by.

• 1:19:09Lewis Howes?

  This is it, yes.

• 1:19:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Can I curse on here? Because I'm gonna tell you right now.

• 1:19:12Lewis Howes?

  You can't, you can't believe what I'm saying.

• 1:19:13Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  This guy was the biggest a-hole I have ever met. I mean, I, he was just.

• 1:19:18Lewis Howes?

  A jerk.

• 1:19:18Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Just a jerk and cold and abrupt. And he was, but yet he had the audacity to say, "I am so empathic now!" I'm like, ooh. You know, like, okay, that's not, that's not how it's usually done. And I didn't, I was not, I had no skin in this game. I was just sort of watching this conversation happen. He was talking to a group of people. But he was just a jerk for the full two days I had to spend in his presence and yet was extolling how much growth he had had. And so I don't know what that meant to him. And maybe people in his life thought there was progress. You know, remember, I mean, if you're starting from negative 10, even getting up to zero is growth.

• 1:19:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:19:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So there is that too. But it's, it's, it's really tough because I do think, there was an interesting article in the New York Times, actually, I think it was today or yesterday about this idea of like, "Does being in therapy make me a good person?" You know, and is that what the point of therapy is? To make someone a good person? And what really is a good person? So it really raised a lot of philosophical issues.

• 1:20:18Lewis Howes?

  What is that, yeah. Interesting.

• 1:20:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And that's, it's subjective to a point, but I don't think it is. I think one thing we do know when we look at personality, in general, the...

• 1:20:32Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I do think we do believe that compassion and respect make for a good person. But we also live in a world where people like that are viewed as suckers.

• 1:20:40Lewis Howes?

  Right, you have to have discernment around things and not just buy into what everyone's saying.

• 1:20:44Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But it's not even that, especially men, and I really feel for men having to endure this. If you're compassionate, sweet, and respectful, those are not masculinized qualities. Weak man versus the guy who is like a corporate raider, who has a ton of money, who drives the fast car, is somehow viewed as strong. I mean, this is right now, that's right there, the paradox of what masculinity is in our modern age. Until we can make compassion sexy, we're in trouble.

• 1:21:12Lewis Howes?

  What do you wish every man could learn to develop more of in society?

• 1:21:17Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Being vulnerable with emotion, to share vulnerability, to share sadness. The number of men, for example, who have been sexually abused, we don't talk about it.

• 1:21:28Lewis Howes?

  One in six.

• 1:21:29Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, exactly. For women, there's actually, at least in therapy, I'm talking about the safe space. But I'm telling you, for clients I've worked with, with male clients, I remember some of them saying, "I have something to talk to you, can we do the session by phone? I don't want to look at your face."

• 1:21:45Lewis Howes?

  So shameful.

• 1:21:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You know, so shameful. And I think that, and when I taught abnormal psychology at the university level, and I was teaching about adverse childhood experiences, like child sexual abuse, what I did notice was that some of the male students were really shifting uncomfortably in their seats. And I would slow down, I'm like, "Listen, if you can take this topic slow." It felt like the women in the class were actually, had processed that a little bit more on the macro, like overall, than the male students in the class. So I think that to hold space, to be able to feel safe with talking about their insecurities, their vulnerabilities, their feelings, to show tears.

• 1:22:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I mean, there is nothing more beautiful than a person's able to cry because they're feeling a genuine emotion. And I think of how we pathologize men for doing that. We do, we literally pathologize. It'll be the cold open on Saturday Night Live, they'll make jokes about it, there'll be memes about it. It horrifies me. So why would a man ever be vulnerable if he thinks he's going to be turned into a big joke?

• 1:22:51Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting you say this and I, you know, I wrote a book five years ago called The Mask of Masculinity, which is about my journey of, you know, letting go of anger, frustration, resentment, and stepping more into vulnerability, right? The healing journey and allowing myself to be vulnerable. Talking about sexual abuse for the first time in 25 years since that happened and just unpacking what it means to be a man, how to take off these masks.

• 1:23:16Lewis Howes?

  And in the process of doing this, I would go to events and talk about the book, right? And there would probably be 50/50 of men and women who would be in the room. And I would ask at some point in the event, I'd say, "All the women in the room, raise your hand if you, uh, once a week, talk to your girlfriends or you have a place where you can go and talk about your challenges or insecurities or fears and things like this of life. Your body, you know, shaming issues, whatever it might be, you can talk to someone about it." And pretty much every woman in the room would raise their hand. I'd say, "Keep your hands up if you do this every day with your girlfriends, your mom, your sister." And pretty much all of them kind of laugh and say, "Yeah, I call people every day."

• 1:23:55Lewis Howes?

  And I said, "Okay, the guys in the room, raise your hand, you know, if you do this once a month, you talk with your guy friends and you feel safe to be vulnerable and open up about your insecurities and all these different things as well." Maybe two hands out of hundreds, you know, once a month would raise their hand. And I'd say, "Are you guys part of a church group that does this kind of like mandatory, like structural thing where you feel safe in this place?" And they all kind of laugh like, "Yes." And I go, "How many of you do this once a year?" No hands. And so I go, "Ladies, imagine going once a month, not even going once a month, not even going once a year. Imagine going a lifetime without ever being vulnerable and opening up because you feel like you're to be shamed. Just think about the weight."

• 1:24:39Lewis Howes?

  I'm not saying how men act and treat you and this and this is okay or actions are okay, but just think about Yeah, it's true. That. It's true. And I had, and I talked to different men throughout this period, who said, "Louis, I started the opening up with my wife and after years, that she would always say, 'I wish you were more vulnerable. I wish you would show emotion more, not just be stoic or angry.'"

• 1:25:06Lewis Howes?

  And some men would say, listen, I started to do this. And I got the worst response from my wife, my partner.

• 1:25:12Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:25:12Lewis Howes?

  Cause they weren't available to receive me being, they're so used to me being stoic and this, having it all together. That when I was emotional, they needed me to be strong for their emotional challenges. Some of these women, I'm not saying all these women. So how do we get women to be, to accepting of men, starting to shift and be, to show emotion, to cry, to say, hey, I'm, I'm struggling. I'm really going with some issues right now.

• 1:25:37Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right.

• 1:25:37Lewis Howes?

  And I've got some stuff I gotta deal with. How do we get women also to be like, hey, it's encouraging, it's okay. And, and keep a safe space so that men will continue to and not be like, well, I'm never doing that again. She, she laughed, she made fun of me, like, why would I ever do this? I'm gonna be strong and tough again.

• 1:25:54Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And that's something that, you know, all, everyone has to work on is how to do, to say, what are our, um, our biases about masculinity? Does it, how, how do we, will that change how you view a partner with that? You know, I mean, again, we, you and I, I was watching you talk about something recently where someone was talking about masculine and feminine energy and all that. I'm not so sure I agree with that dichotomy, to be honest with you. But I do think that it is a, you know, the shaming of emotion and anger being the only acceptable emotion. So men use that, they, they've turned it into like the Swiss army knife of emotion. I'm sad, I'm gonna be angry, I'm vulnerable, I'm gonna be angry, angry, angry, angry, right? It's like, it's just like the one, the one stop shop kind of thing. And, and to me, anger is an incredibly acceptable, healthy emotion.

• 1:26:38Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's in, it's in the whole, but it's, it's meant to be a whole drawer full of stuff, not just one emotion you use for everything. And that's, that's the challenge is that men do have emotion, anger. And that, that's, it's sort of switching that up societally, not pathologizing that. And, and women holding space for that. But I think the other piece for men is I want them to have more deep friendships. Again, something else I read, a great article I read about a guy wrote this idea of how many men out there have colonoscopy friends? And that headline grabbed me, so I kept reading. You know what his, his point was, he, I think he had a girlfriend or wife or something. And he said, if she wasn't. In my life, there's nobody to drive me home from a colonoscopy because you can't drive yourself

• 1:27:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  home and you can't take an Uber home. So a person has to come and get you at the colonoscopy.

• 1:27:24Lewis Howes?

  That's vulnerable.

• 1:27:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's very vulnerable. Most men don't have a, and this is like men over the age of forty, which is when you'd be getting a colonoscopy, that men often don't have friendships. They have like, let's go play golf, let's go watch a game, let's meet at a bar. But that person, where women have been, are really good at that. And in fact, it's why women often fare better later in life after a spouse dies. Whereas a guy, it's sort of like they'll often decline rather quickly. Some women, not because they flourish, but some women actually do flourish, but they often have a stronger support network. Because women are often doing that, that cultivating of, of social relationships. And so, because that's just something that's more validated for them. And so, and I love that analogy of the

• 1:28:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  colonoscopy friend, like the person you call and say, can you pick me up from this? And that, I'm gonna go to work. You know, of course, I'm thinking of the friends I have, like you gave me enough notice, of course I'm gonna come get you. And there's dozens of women I would do that for. And so, when I even ran that by my partner, he got really sad. He's like, I don't think I have any colonoscopy friends. Yeah. And he's like, I gotta work on that. And so, yeah. Yep.

• 1:28:36Lewis Howes?

  Dr. Ramani, I appreciate you. I want people to get more of your work, Navigating Narcissism.

• 1:28:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, you gotta tune in.

• 1:28:43Lewis Howes?

  Podcast, powerful. Season one is almost complete. Season two is gonna be coming out early next year, but they can go through thirty episodes of the podcast. If you want more, go there, subscribe, everywhere podcasts that you listen to. Also, your YouTube is an amazing resource. They can go check that out as well.

• 1:29:01Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Thank you.

• 1:29:01Lewis Howes?

  Subscribe there. You've got an online program for people healing from narcissistic relationships and abuse. If they go to your website, dr-romany.com, they can learn more about that. They can sign up and get that as well. You've got great content on social media. How else can we be of service to you today?

• 1:29:20Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I would say that, you know, for people who want to do the deeper dive into healing, I have that monthly healing program. I know some people say, "I don't know, I don't know if I'm getting this in therapy. I mean, I have the money." It's very affordable. And I'd say to people, "Try it for a month. If you don't like it, it's really not that much lost." And some people say, "Okay, this is working." Or, "You see, there's a community of other people who've been through this." So definitely encourage people to check out my healing platform. They can go to my website and find that. And, you know, for people who want to hear lived experience, the podcast is great for that, too, because on YouTube, I teach people about stuff. On Navigating Narcissism, I talk to people who've been through, and all kinds of things. They've survived cults, they've survived abusive relationships, they've survived spiritual abuse.

• 1:30:05Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They've survived, I mean, pick a form of abuse, we have talked about it. And so, it's a real interesting opportunity to hear that conversation happen in real time, and the insights people get when it's framed in that way. And like I said, YouTube is like a big old library where if I haven't talked about it, then drop me a line, and if it makes sense, then I'll make a video about it. And that's where a lot of our content ideas come from, people saying, "Could you talk about this or that?" And so, I do that. And then I'd say, "You know what? Get out there and be empathic, be compassionate, and practice what I call recognition." By recognition is that see other people, feel them, you know, experience them,

• 1:30:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  hold space for them, because that moment of recognition, for some people, it might be the very first time they've gotten it in years, and it can be a real eye-opener. That every time we meet someone, there's something really extraordinary about them, recognize it.

• 1:31:01Lewis Howes?

  Powerful stuff. I asked you a couple of questions last time, but I want people to go to our previous episode to see your three truths and your definition of greatness. You probably have changed. Next time, I'll ask you those again, but I want to acknowledge you first before I ask you the final question. I want to acknowledge you for what you just said about five minutes ago, about how, I think it was a week or two ago, in your own therapy, you realized you're still having awakenings and growth and creating more wholeness in yourself, which is really cool to see, that you're teaching the work, but you're doing the work yourself.

• 1:31:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Oh, you have to do the work. It would be disrespectful to everyone I work with if I didn't do the work myself.

• 1:31:37Lewis Howes?

  Well, I appreciate it and acknowledge you for how you show up. In so many ways, you know, in private conversations with people, the way you coach people, the way you're teaching in all the different platforms. So it's amazing. We need your voice. Very grateful for you and appreciate you for for learning and and using your wisdom from experience on how to teach this stuff.

• 1:31:57Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I appreciate that.

• 1:31:58Lewis Howes?

  You're welcome. And my final question, I want people to go check the three truths in the previous episode, we'll link it up. But my final question is, if you could go back to your younger self before the first narcissistic experience that you witnessed yourself, you know, you probably weren't even aware of it, obviously. But if you could go back in before that, and she was standing in front of you, whatever age that was, what are three things that you would say to her to support her in the journey she's about to experience? Or to help kind of like, you know, minimize some of the things that she was about to experience? If you could go back with the wisdom you have, what would you say to her?

• 1:32:40Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I would say to her,

• 1:32:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  keep getting lost in the daydreams because they are going to happen. And

• 1:33:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  don't be afraid to change course. And especially that last one is don't be afraid to change course. I'm somebody who went a very traditional educational route, you know, four years of undergrads, five years of grad school, one year of the training, like residency kind of thing, two years of postdoc. And there was a time in there that I thought to change course, and I didn't. And then I became an academic and tenure and blah, blah, blah. And when I was Golly, I really didn't change course. I was fifty-five years old. And it worked out just fine. I landed on my feet. And but there was a lot of work that had to lead up to that. There was times I was working

• 1:33:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  three and four jobs, but I would say, don't be afraid to change course. I don't know what would have been different if I had changed course when I was earlier in education and knew probably there was a different path for me. There's a lot of dreams I haven't, I don't know that I might ever get a chance to do. I've always wanted to live in another country and things like that. I don't know if those will ever happen for me. Had I changed course, those would have. So I'd tell her, change course. Like, it's okay if in the second year of grad school, you were, Jill, listen, we end up where we end up. So it's, I think that the path is the path. And but I, yeah, those are, but I'd say it's gonna be okay. And when I look at pictures of myself at that age, I'm thinking of, my life exceeds

• 1:34:27Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  anything that she would have allowed herself to think.

• 1:34:29Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful. Dr. Romney, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

• 1:34:33Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:34:34Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And

• 1:35:16Lewis Howes?

  now it's time to go out there and do something great.