Dr. Jessica Knurick: Is American Food Actually Poison? Debunking the MAHA Movement & Nutrition Myths

This episode is a masterclass in navigating the confusing world of modern nutrition. Trevor and Eugene sit down with Dr. Jessica Knurick, a PhD in Nutrition Science and expert in chronic disease prevention, to debunk the most persistent health myths currently trending on social media. From protein to salt, seed oils to raw milk, they discuss the most persistent health myths we hear every day. If you’ve ever felt food anxiety while walking down a grocery aisle or wondered if fruit sugar is actually poisoning you, this deep dive into evidence-based health is a must-watch.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Trevor Noah?

  Wait, there's a, there's a list of ingredients, basic ingredients that people always interact with or always have in their homes that they might not be sure if they're good or bad, including myself. So I'm gonna do a quick fire of maybe a few. Then you tell me yea or nay and why they yea, right?

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 0:20Trevor Noah?

  So, salt, is it a yea or nay?

• 0:22Speaker 01

  You need salt. Your body needs salt to survive. It's too much salt that's the problem, which is probably gonna be the, my answer to all of these.

• 0:29Trevor Noah?

  So now there's a battle between Himalayan salt or just normal salt. Which one is good, which one is bad?

• 0:34Speaker 01

  They're, they're both fine.

• 0:35Trevor Noah?

  Marketing.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:36Trevor Noah?

  Sugar, good or bad?

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Again, sugar, I mean, there's sugar in fruit and fruit is a wonderful food, right? So, um, because you're also getting all of those nutrients. And so sugar is not necessarily bad. It's the overconsumption of sugar that's bad. And particularly like added sugar, like a soda, right? Cause you're just drinking sugar with no nutrients at all. So, so that's kind of what you wanna stay away from or limit versus just thinking sugar itself is bad.

• 1:02Trevor Noah?

  White sugar or brown sugar? Which one is the best?

• 1:04Speaker 01

  They're the same.

• 1:05Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I always thought brown sugar was way healthy. I thought it was like brown rice. I would eat it all the time and I'd be like, "Mom, look, I'm being healthy."

• 1:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:12Trevor Noah?

  And then she'd throw carrots at my head.

• 1:19Trevor Noah?

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• 1:27Trevor Noah?

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• 2:02Trevor Noah?

  This segment is brought to you by Google Pixel. You know what's really frustrating? Knowing the exact information you need is somewhere on your phone, but still ending up wasting your time digging through five different apps just to actually find it. Thankfully, Google Pixel 11 is designed with Gemini Intelligence, so it can proactively find the information I need right when I need it. Like my flight info and travel days or my calendar when Eugene texts me to hang out. Oh, sorry Eugene, I'm booked. Learn more about what Google Pixel 11 can do at googlestore.com. These AI features are available in select countries and languages for users 18 and over, and make sure to check responses.

• 2:47Trevor Noah?

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• 3:39Trevor Noah?

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• 4:07Trevor Noah?

  Dr. Jessica, wait, you know what's funny? We were all debating how to say the name. I thought it was Knurick. And then someone else was like Knurick.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Knurick.

• 4:18Trevor Noah?

  Knurick. Which one is it?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  It's closer to the second one. It's Knurick.

• 4:22Trevor Noah?

  It is Knurick.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, the K is silent like knife.

• 4:26Trevor Noah?

  I don't like silent letters. I'm not gonna lie. I'm just gonna put it out there.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:30Trevor Noah?

  I'm not, your name can be your name. I just don't think this is cool for people. Because it's like your name is like a trap.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  It's a made up name.

• 4:38Trevor Noah?

  Imagine if I was like, I'm Trevor Noah. And then they're like, N O, no, K N O A H.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  I mean, the H is kinda silent, isn't it?

• 4:45Trevor Noah?

  The Noah?

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Noah.

• 4:47Trevor Noah?

  You caught me.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  You have a silent letter too.

• 4:52Trevor Noah?

  I do, I do. Eugene, Kozar, no, you know.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  There's nothing silent about Knurick.

• 4:56Trevor Noah?

  Because you have to say the H properly.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Knurick.

• 4:58Trevor Noah?

  Knurick?

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Like knife?

• 5:00Trevor Noah?

  Knife.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  No, no, I'm just thinking about, I've never really thought that the K in knife was silent.

• 5:06Trevor Noah?

  It is silent.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  Knurick.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Or like not. Not. There's a lot of silent K's.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  I like the Knurick.

• 5:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, K's are lazy letters in words.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're lazy, that's true.

• 5:15Trevor Noah?

  They really are. They don't pull their weight at all.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  Knowledge.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Well, at the start of a word at least.

• 5:19Trevor Noah?

  Yes, whenever other letters are having a convention, then they're like, ah, here comes K. Oh, goodness. Oh, shh, hey, K. What are you, are you gonna do your job today?

• 5:29Speaker 02

  It's hey to you.

• 5:33Trevor Noah?

  This is not why we brought you on. We're not gonna just talk about letters and...

• 5:37Speaker 01

  I'm not a linguist, I have to tell you.

• 5:39Trevor Noah?

  But you are an expert, which I do appreciate. Actually, like, I know when you read it out, it's, you know, it's like you've got PhD in nutrition as well. How would you describe what you're an expert in? Like, what do you do? What are your qualifications?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  I have a PhD in nutrition science, but my research focus was really in chronic disease prevention, so... Looking at like all of the different areas that could potentially prevent chronic disease.

• 6:03Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  And mainly lifestyle-related chronic disease, like type 2 diabetes or cardiovascular disease, like cardiometabolic disease.

• 6:10Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so help us break down the difference between lifestyle chronic diseases versus what is like a non-life style chronic disease?

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, lifestyle-related are just things that we know, we have pretty good evidence that like lifestyle-related habits or behaviors are actually impacting your disease risk.

• 6:27Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  So there are some like chronic diseases that we don't necessarily know that. We don't know like how much behavior is or like lifestyle is actually impacting it.

• 6:36Trevor Noah?

  Like, is there an example? Give me an example, just so I can wrap my head around it. I'm trying to, because you said type 2 diabetes would be more lifestyle.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:42Trevor Noah?

  Okay, and then type 1, I guess, no?

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Type 1, no.

• 6:45Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so that's just, it might just be hereditary?

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, like an autoimmune type of response.

• 6:52Trevor Noah?

  Ah, okay, okay.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of hereditary factors.

• 6:56Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of genetics.

• 6:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and so you're the-

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Potentially other like environmental factors, we just don't know as well.

• 7:03Trevor Noah?

  So some we know for certain, or there's a lot of research to suggest it?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's also that like you could potentially prevent the chronic disease with lifestyle change.

• 7:13Trevor Noah?

  Got it.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:14Trevor Noah?

  I love the world that you're in. You know, we were chatting to the team. I, I feel like you are one of the bright spots of social media, you know? And Eugene and I were chatting about this the other day, and we're saying like, I'm not gonna take credit for it because you said it.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Yo, because Jessica, things that happen in our friendships with taking credit. These disclaimers need to happen more often.

• 7:36Trevor Noah?

  I'm not gonna take credit.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Buckle up.

• 7:38Trevor Noah?

  Because you said it. But Eugene said something very valuable. He said, you know, we can always jump to try and like vilify social media and we can look at the bad and we can, you know what I mean? But we also forget that there's a good side of what's happening on social media. There's also a good side of what happens on TV, etc. And I was like, man Eugene, I feel you, man, I feel you.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Class, half full.

• 7:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, and I, I feel like you're one of those bright spots. An expert on social media, breaking down the most complicated topics for everyone to fully understand.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Thank you, I appreciate that.

• 8:13Trevor Noah?

  No, we thank you. No, genuinely, we do. I love how you got into it as well. You know what I mean? It's like, one minute you're the scientist who's like really working on like the, what do they call it again?

• 8:26Trevor Noah?

  You you you write the research papers and the

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Like a grant?

• 8:29Trevor Noah?

  No, no.

• 8:32Trevor Noah?

  You're not my friend. Friends would help.

• 8:37Trevor Noah?

  No, oh, the academia more. Yes, the acadi-, you know what I mean? And then now, now it feels like you're you're you've bridged the gap between the information and the people who need the information. Maybe we start in that, like, why, what made you think, you know what, I need to get involved in getting this information directly to people and not just keeping it in the world of expertise?

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've kind of, um, I've kind of talked about this before, that, um, for a very long time, it was really frowned upon for academics to go on social media.

• 9:01Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  So it was, it was looked down upon. I first went to social media, actually, back in 2016. My little brother was like, you should get on this new app. It was like Twitter's, like, version of a video app. And so I was teaching nutrition courses at a university at the time. And I was like, you know, I could teach on on this app. I'll just like, whatever my lesson is that day, I'll go teach it on the app. So that's what I did. And I like built up this little following within a few months. And I got a lot of pushback from colleagues and from former colleagues. And, you know, I was a brand new tenure track professor and I didn't want to like put my career in jeopardy.

• 9:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  And so when that happened and, you know, people were making fun of me, like, how's your vlog doing?

• 9:39Trevor Noah?

  Oh, damn.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  And and that was a really common occurrence. It was just not a space that like we were supposed to be in. And so I got off and I was off for years and years after that. And I I've talked to lots of other like academics and even like medical doctors and they all feel very similarly, like, it just, it was really frowned upon for us to go to social media. And unfortunately, that's where people go, for better or worse, for their information. And so we lost a lot of ground for many years, not going to spaces where people went for information. And so that's what really initially, well, I guess the second time, brought me to social media was I was pregnant with my son, no, I was pregnant with my son in 2019 and then my daughter in 2022 and Between those times, for whatever reason, I think it was after COVID,

• 10:21Speaker 01

  it was also like TikTok had come out and I just started seeing way more misinformation than I had seen the first time around and like getting targeted it with it in my algorithm. And so that's, I was like, well, that's not correct. And like, I felt kind of a obligation to protect that particular demographic because like, we're quite vulnerable at that life stage when we have young kids. Or we're pregnant. And so I just went on and started correcting kind of like nutrition misinformation in the pregnancy space. And then, you know, my, my content has shifted much more so in the last year or so after last summer, when I saw a lot of, you know, this like movement happening in public health and nutrition, it just happened to be like my exact area of focus the last 15 years.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  And so I was able to really see the manipulation that was happening with the narrative. And I decided to just start correcting some of the misinformation. And so that's kind of like what brought me to, to here where I am now, sitting with you, Trevor.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Do you guys need a moment?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Here we are, serendipitous.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  We always have this debate about social media and we're thinking there's a pushback in trying to find, not even a pushback, maybe a U-turn in how we experience social media now. People are trying to look for the bad, but it seems like you found the good. What is, what is the good that it's in social media right now that people can go look for?

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Well, I think that there's a lot of good content out there. You just have to like sort through it and sift through it, right? So like sifting through the bad, but I mean, it, social media gives you the opportunity to learn from people you never really would have been able to learn from before, right? Like if I have like a question about some sort of like beauty product, there's like so many dermatologists out there or cosmetic chemists, just like creating content about it. And I'm like, this is wonderful. So I think that's a great part about it. If you can find people giving credible information, I think it could be a great source of information.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  How do you figure out who the credible person is though?

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  That, that's like the biggest obstacle for me is.

• 12:17Trevor Noah?

  You know, when I, when, when my friend sent me your videos at first, I was like, this is amazing.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:21Trevor Noah?

  And then the, the second thing I always have to tell myself is I go like, is it amazing because I want to believe it?

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 12:27Trevor Noah?

  Because I'm not an expert, so how do I know this is the right thing?

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 12:30Trevor Noah?

  And that becomes like the ultimate paradigm, uh, paradox, rather, online is you get it from an expert, so you think it's real. And then you go, wait, how do I know this person is an expert? Cause everyone's a doctor. You know, the Dr. Oz, doctor. And then if Dr. Oz says it.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Everyone's a doctor.

• 12:44Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, no, do you know what I mean? Like people, just doctor, everyone, doctor, doctor, doctor.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 12:49Trevor Noah?

  Like, how did you, was there a moment when people were like, who are you to say this? I'm sure people even say that to you now in some way. I'm sure there's some people who'll go like, you're the scam, you're the fake person.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, people are always gonna do that, right?

• 13:00Speaker 02

  Did you just say that? What do you mean? Is this how you feel?

• 13:04Trevor Noah?

  No, I'm, that's not how I feel. I said that.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  There's so much conviction in your eyes.

• 13:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, because I channeled the comment section.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Okay, maybe let me ask Jessica the question.

• 13:11Trevor Noah?

  Okay, you ask the question.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Doctor Jessica, do you find that sometimes on social media, people look at you and think, perhaps, maybe you're the scam?

• 13:21Trevor Noah?

  That was actually, that was actually better.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:23Trevor Noah?

  That was better.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  I, I think that yes, I think that if, um, you know, if, if I'm saying something that like somebody doesn't like, it's very easy to write somebody off just, just saying like, you're a scam or whatever it is. Um, I think there's a couple of things you can look for. This is not foolproof, but like some things to like identify if somebody is giving accurate information. Um, they're, they tend to not be super sensational, so, which plays really well into the algorithm, right? So a lot of times in my space, if it's like nutrition misinformation, they'll scare you at the front of the video, right? They'll scare you about like if you're poisoning your children or if you're consuming toxins. Um, experts don't generally talk like that, like genuine people who are trying to educate are not gonna scare you, they're gonna explain the nuance. So if there's some sort of inflammatory claim at the front, that's kind of a red flag.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  And then particularly then if they walk you through kind of why, why it's, why that's so toxic or whatever it is, and then try to sell you something at the very end. Generally, those are some like good red flags. I'm not saying that's all, always the case. Um, but that's just something to like, keep in mind. Maybe this is not, maybe this information, you know, has an ulterior motive to. Try to get me to purchase their whatever it is at the end. Um. So I think kind of being aware of that. And then, um, again, really sensationalized information is generally not how like experts talk.

• 14:37Trevor Noah?

  That that feels like the crux of the RFK Maha movement, make America healthy again, which by the way, is a great starting point. Who doesn't want America to be healthy?

• 14:47Speaker 01

  No one.

• 14:47Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying?

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Well.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Well, some people.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:52Trevor Noah?

  You know what I mean? But it's like, yeah, who doesn't want America to be healthy? And then they go like, hey, you know, the the foods that we're giving our kids and the. One of the things I noticed about, you know, somebody like RFK and and the people around him is they're often really good at identifying real problems.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:09Trevor Noah?

  They're not lying about the problems. And so they rope you in by saying, hey, kids are unhealthy and kids are not getting good food in schools and, you know, the the medicine, the pharmaceutical industry might not have your best. And everyone's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then to your point, it flips. And then they sell you something.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's great because, you know, the the if you identify a correct problem that like we all care about, and then you see somebody kind of countering some of the like misinformation that's being spread, it's very easy for those people to be like, why don't you want America to be healthy? People will ask me that sometimes.

• 15:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  And it's like, wait, no, I want America to be healthy. That's why I'm talking about this. Um. But I think it's like a brilliant kind of like propaganda tool.

• 15:49Trevor Noah?

  It's it's it's the snake oil salesman handbook. That's what it is. You come in, you identify the problem, and then you go, I immediately can cure this thing with my snake oil.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  But I also feel like with nutrition, it gets very tricky sometimes. You know, growing up, there were those ads that would be like, open your cupboard right now. Your food pantry, open your fridge right now.

• 16:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Everything in there that you see is wrong. Then they'll be like, fresh, fresh fruits and vegetables. You must eat this and eat that. But now, later on in life, you get to hear so much sugar in fruit, so much sugar in this, so much sugar in that. Don't eat. Don't drink fruit juice. It's not good for you. It feels like the messages have been.

• 16:25Trevor Noah?

  What? Yeah, what? Wait, what? Let's let's actually, what is the truth around that?

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 16:29Trevor Noah?

  Fruit good, fruit bad?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Fruit good.

• 16:32Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Fruit juice?

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, fruit juice is different than fruit because fruit itself has a lot of fiber in it. Fruit juice kind of strips out the fiber. So fruit juice essentially has a lot of sugar and not a lot of the fiber that that real fruit has. And so there those are differences in terms of like their metabolic impact on you. So we don't have a problem eating too much fruit in this country. Like there's we actually, most of us, almost 90% of us, don't meet fruit intake guidelines. So the benefits of eating fruit, which is like all the micronutrients and polyphenols and antioxidants and all of that, and the fiber far outweigh any problems that we would see with like the the sugar because the sugar is packaged within the fruit. So it's different than just like drinking a soda, for example, which doesn't have any of that.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  It's just the sugar.

• 17:20Trevor Noah?

  I I can eat half a watermelon.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:24Trevor Noah?

  In one sitting.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  Same.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  That's a lot.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  Same.

• 17:27Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Does that give you GI issues?

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you feel itchy somewhere? Because that's GI.

• 17:35Trevor Noah?

  I don't think that's GI.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 17:36Trevor Noah?

  I'm glad we've got an expert here. I don't think GI has.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  GI is like gastrointestinal.

• 17:44Trevor Noah?

  No, it doesn't. I've never had any problems, actually.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 17:48Trevor Noah?

  Like, how much? How how do you know if you if you're having too much fruit?

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  I mean, I I don't know that there's like a specific symptom or sign to know if you're having too much fruit. And again, like too much is going to be very individual, right? So we when we make recommendations, like two to three servings of fruit a day, like those recommendations are just for the general population. But somebody someone else might be able to tolerate much more than that versus somebody else.

• 18:14Trevor Noah?

  Someone else. Okay, so I'm exceptional.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  You might have an exceptional fruit tolerance.

• 18:17Trevor Noah?

  I have an exceptional of exceptional fruit tolerance.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  But here's my.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Specifically watermelon.

• 18:21Trevor Noah?

  Yes, watermelon.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  I love watermelon.

• 18:23Trevor Noah?

  I mean, how can you not love watermelon? You know, the greatest scam ever committed.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Is eating your shirtless.

• 18:28Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 18:29Trevor Noah?

  But I'm I'm into it.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  You must try it.

• 18:31Trevor Noah?

  I've never thought of that.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Spot's gone. Just use sticky chest.

• 18:35Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Then shower straight after.

• 18:36Trevor Noah?

  No, what I was gonna say is like.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Finish off the rest of the watermelon that's left.

• 18:38Trevor Noah?

  What I was gonna say was like the craziest thing, the worst thing that ever happened was like when I came to America and then I discovered like here watermelon had like racist connotations. Then I was like, what? And they're like, oh, black people love watermelon. And I was like, yeah. They're like, you love it. And I was like, yeah. And they're like, no, but you love it.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 18:56Trevor Noah?

  I was like, yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  Where does that come from?

• 18:58Trevor Noah?

  Ah, man, it's all like.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Jessica, do you know?

• 19:00Speaker 01

  I have no.

• 19:01Trevor Noah?

  So if I, if I know, if I remember, if I remember correctly, there was like a whole, there was a whole thing around it. Ryan, you'll, you'll probably know this, but like, there was like a whole, um, originally, it, it didn't have any racist connotations or anything. But as black people in America were choosing their foods and were making them and were enjoying them. Then racist groups were like, we've got to find ways to poke fun at them. And, and so they became the stereotype. Fried chicken was one of them. But here's the thing. Yeah, black people like fried chicken. But you know who else likes fried chicken?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  White people.

• 19:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, thank you. Thank you. You can't sustain an entire industry just with the black people in America.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  I trusted you more when you said white people. I was like, like she missed the criteria. And she's a nutritionist.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  My family loves, loves fried chicken.

• 19:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, thank you. You see, we have just, there we, there we go.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  Oh, so there was this. Okay, I see, I see what you mean.

• 19:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. And then they just made it a thing. But there was also something around like the farming of it. Like it, if I remember correctly, I, I, I mean, we'll, we'll fact check this. But I think there was a story around, like, black farmers post slavery started growing a lot of watermelon themselves.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:06Trevor Noah?

  And it was one of the crops that were easiest to grow. And so they were once, they were like, because they had farming experience. Unfortunately. And then they were like, we're gonna grow watermelon. And it became like a crop that they were using and they were making a lot of money from. And then there were just racist people who were like, we gotta shut down this watermelon vibe. And so to make it distasteful to others. Funny enough, like, sort of like a, it was another, you know, scammy thing before social media. They went, well, you know what watermelon means. You know where it comes from. And then that's where the stereotype sort of like gains its footing.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  I always feel like in any industry, there's always corporations getting involved and trying to take people off eating fruit and vegetables that are fresh and going for the packaged foods. Do you find that in urban areas and in cities and in, first of all, countries mostly, fresh fruit and vegetables are very expensive and unattainable for most people?

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're certainly more expensive relative to when we're looking at like the caloric density, so how many calories are actually in the food, they're certainly more expensive than than these packaged foods. A lot of that is because of the policies that we've enacted in this country, and particularly kind of like zoning laws that have created these what we term food deserts in a lot of the urban areas, where they literally don't have access, like easy access to a grocery store with fresh fruits and vegetables. So they're going to dollar stores and they're going to gas stations for a lot of their groceries. And so you know what we might take for granted going to a grocery store, like I live in the suburbs, there's like five grocery stores within a close proximity. Yeah. A lot of people don't have that, and so they have to take like, you know, multiple buses to get to a grocery store, and then they don't have transportation, so they're

• 21:40Speaker 01

  carrying all of that home. And it just, the barriers of access are much higher. So it's not even just cost, it's also just accessibility of fresh fruits and vegetables. And so what happens then is people are heavily reliant on prepackaged foods, much more so, so they're more accessible, they have longer shelf lives. Because think, fruits and vegetables go bad after a few days, and if you don't, you know, prepare them, then you have to go back and do that whole thing again to try to get access to them. So yeah, that is a big problem in our country. I mean, millions of Americans live in these food deserts that don't have easy access to fresh fruits and vegetables. Wow.

• 22:15Trevor Noah?

  How do we think of ultra-processed foods? Because depending on where you look, they'll tell you they give you cancer, they causing obesity, you shouldn't eat any of them. Some people like, oh, it's in moderation. Some people are like, no, they're completely fine. What's your view on ultra-processed foods? And I know that's a broad term.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, we should define it.

• 22:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, let's define it.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  So there's not a great definition for it, which is why HHS right now has kind of an RFI out, like a request for information to figure out like what is a good definition for ultra-processed foods, because they do a lot of talking about ultra-processed foods, but we don't have a great definition. In the nutrition science research, we use something called the NOVA classification.

• 22:53Trevor Noah?

  NOVA classification.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's out of Brazil, actually. And so they did like a first effort years ago to define what ultra-processed means, and they defined it as foods that include an ingredient or a processing method that you don't have access to. So you can't replicate it in your kitchen. So the best way I can explain it is with corn, so. Unprocessed would be corn you pick from the garden. Okay. Minimally processed would be like frozen corn. Okay. So they just chuck the corn and put it in the freezer. Yeah. And then processed would be canned corn. Okay. They add a little sodium. So just adding sodium is considered processed, like in this classification. And then ultra-processed would be a Dorito chip. So you can't replicate a Dorito chip in your kitchen, but there is corn.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  She's amazing. You see now? So, but if we use that definition, right? Because again, the definition is an ingredient or processing method you don't have access to. So that really means any of these additives that, you know, that we use to like preserve food or change the color of food or those types of things. There is so much variability in the nutrient density of those foods. So you can have something like a Dorito chip that doesn't have very much nutrient density, right? It's not, it's not great for you. But then you can also have something like a protein powder would be considered ultra-processed, but you're getting a lot of protein in that protein powder. Ah. Right? So. So you can't just go good or bad. Exactly. And the people in charge right now are wanting to go good or bad and, and

• 24:21Speaker 01

  kind of like demonizing the previous administration for not like taking a hard stance on ultra-processed foods. But this is the reason. When you look at the science, there is, there's like nutrient dense ultra-processed foods and they're more accessible. And so if someone can devise a healthful diet that includes a lot of ultra-processed foods, but that it can still be a health promoting diet for those people who don't have access to fresh fruits and vegetables, for example, then we can't demonize those foods, right? That we have to identify that, oh, those can actually be health promoting. And so there's, we still need to do a lot more research in this area and they, you know, they've been doing some of that research at NIH, looking at ultra-processed foods. So it's very, it's a very nuanced kind of like ecosystem there.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  But, but at the end of the day, low nutrient ultra-processed foods, these prepackaged foods, there's pretty good evidence that they're, that they're negatively impacting our health.

• 25:13Trevor Noah?

  How do, how do we figure this out? I, I, is there like a, a simple trick that we can use? When we're out there buying food, you know, so let's use Doritos as an example.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:23Trevor Noah?

  Someone grabs a bag of Doritos. I did. I wasn't gonna say who. Someone grabs a bag of Doritos, right? They haven't eaten that morning. I didn't. I wasn't gonna name any names. And then they start nibbling away and you can see that this person is hungry. I am. And they're just like, you know, I just need like a few little nibbles of a thing, nibbles of a thing. And then they eat it and then afterwards. They still don't really feel like they've eaten anything. I don't. And their stomach isn't full. At all. And they're going, I still need to eat something. After the podcast, yeah. And because I feel like I need to eat something. It means that that wasn't like necessarily bad for me or didn't, do, do, do you get what I'm saying? How do, like, what, what is that gap that we, that we? Cause we, we all experience it. Someone goes like, oh, I still have space.

• 26:07Trevor Noah?

  So help me understand that, cause I, on a, on a, you know, if I just read it, uh, ultra dense calories, I'm like, yeah, I understand this. I don't really understand it.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Okay, so with Dorito chips, let's take Doritos.

• 26:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't mean to throw Doritos under the bus.

• 26:20Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, let's say all chips, all the chips.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Chips, let's, let's look at chips.

• 26:23Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  So chips tend to be high in salt and fat.

• 26:27Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  And so any combination of salt, sugar and fat are, is gonna be what we term hypersatiating, right? So it's gonna be like you.

• 26:35Trevor Noah?

  Unholy trinity.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  You can just keep eating it, right? And corporations, by the way, are not trying to hide this. You remember those commercials that were like, you bet you can't eat just one.

• 26:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once you pop, you can't stop.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't stop. Um, so like they, they're designing these foods, you know, with salt, sugar and fat to be hyper palatable, hyper satiating. So what the problem is, is that those chips don't have any protein. And they don't have any fiber and protein and fiber are the things that are gonna give you what that feeling that you're talking about, which is like feeling a bit full. Right? So when, when you're eating something like that, you wanna be pairing it with something that has protein and fiber as well.

• 27:08Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Eat a chicken sandwich and you have like some chips, right? Or maybe you eat a bean salad and then you have some chips like, so implementing fiber and protein are, are really where you wanna focus.

• 27:19Trevor Noah?

  But there's something that's confusing here. So you, you, you say the chips, um, it's the salt, the fat, you, you eating it. Uh, you know what I mean? It's making you feel like you're still hungry the whole time. You're eating the thing, you're eating the thing, you're eating the thing. It makes you feel like you're hungry, makes you feel like you're hungry. And then you said, pair it with something else is like a better is is a better way to have it. What about those like brands that say, we've got fiber in the chips? And we've got, do you know what I mean? Like there's some chips that go, no, this is a protein chip. But it still has the same calories on the bag and it's a, are those actually better chips than the other chips? And is the better enough to be better for for us? Or is it just a little bit better? How much better?

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Twenty seven percent better. No, I'm just kidding.

• 28:03Trevor Noah?

  Oh damn, I was like, wow.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  Now we're kidding.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  I just made that up.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  We're wonderful.

• 28:10Trevor Noah?

  You had us, you had us, you had us. I was sold.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Welcome to government.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  That's not true, that's not true.

• 28:17Trevor Noah?

  I was sold. I was, let me tell you, I had already scheduled in my brain calendar. Every event I'm going to, and I was gonna say twenty seven percent.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  No, no, don't, don't say it.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  So I actually, I have actually pro these food corporations doing things like what you're saying. Because I do think that if you could add to something that someone's already consuming. And you can almost make a better version of it in the sense, and when we say better, it's just like. They're adding in these nutrients that can help, help potentially like make, potentially make them like more satiating, right? Like fill you up as you're eating them, which I think can be a net positive. So, so I would say that I think that that would be like a step in the right direction to add some of these things. Because it could potentially help on the back end. I don't really have data to say like how much better it is. Or how, how effective it actually is. But theoretically, that seems like it could be a potentially good thing to me.

• 29:11Trevor Noah?

  I feel like that's where they scam us though. They're smart because. Someone like you will say, you need more protein in your diet. You need to make sure that you get more fiber. You, and then they just write on the bag, more protein, more fiber, just like the doctor said.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 29:24Trevor Noah?

  And then I'm like, ah, back to those Doritos.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  You know, everything that you were saying about Doritos is so true about how they make you feel. Cause I'm constantly battling with that. If I haven't eaten anything healthy in the morning. I'll start out with junk and I'll start thinking I'm, I'm doing good, but then I'll feel even worse throughout the day. But my question has always been, what is, what is the definition of being full? And what is the definition of being hungry? Because there's people who go, I don't eat that much and they're fine. But there's people who, if they skip a meal, they ultimately, you know, they fall into collapse because they are super hungry. So when you're eating something good.

• 29:57Trevor Noah?

  What is the battery level of now I'm full? Is it because you've had the mass of food? Or is it because your mind is going, we've ticked that box? We've got enough of that and we're good now?

• 30:08Speaker 01

  I actually do not know the exact answer to your question, whether, which one it is. I just know, we have, we obviously have hormones that are kind of like sending signals to our brain. We have hunger hormones, we have insatiety hormones. And so essentially.

• 30:22Trevor Noah?

  Insatiety hormones?

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Satiety means like you're full, like so hunger and then full.

• 30:26Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Um, and so when, you know, when you are eating to a certain level, this is why they kind of say to like, eat slow and digest your food because it gives like, it gives your hormones essentially time to kind of trigger your brain. Hey, we're full, right? So if you're kind of, if you are relaxed, you're sitting, you know, a lot of people on vacation say that they feel a lot better when they're on vacation, when they're, when they're eating. And a big part of that is they're relaxed, they're not stressed, they're not running around while eating. And like, they're not driving their car and eating a sandwich, right? They're like sitting at a table and chatting and like having a meal and digesting that meal. And so when they do that, they tend to eat less as well because when you're digesting, it gives those signals time to be like, hey, we're full. So let's not overeat, which is another thing about ultra-processed foods. It makes it really like convenient to eat quickly, right?

• 31:12Speaker 01

  And so the quicker we eat, the more we're going to eat before we feel that feeling of full.

• 31:17Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so help me understand one more thing. Uh, cause I, I, I, I really don't get this, even though I try and read it and understand it.

• 31:26Trevor Noah?

  How is it that that tiny bag can make you gain weight? When it's like that, that tiny, help me understand like the calorie and, and why you're gaining weight from a thing. So I, I can eat half a watermelon, as I've said. And I can eat like a few bags of Doritos. Now, I'm not saying this scientifically, but the Doritos will, if I look at my body, if I have like, if I have a week of terrible food like that, I'll see a difference versus if I eat like watermelons the whole week type, like fruit things. How does that work? Because it seems like the mass of this is greater. But I don't think people fully understand how that tiny amount of food is making them gain more weight than more food, like in a plate.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  It's just calories. It's what we term energy density or calorie density. So a watermelon is very, is not calorie dense at all, which means that for the mass that you're consuming, the calories are very low, right? Because the watermelon, first of all, it has tons of water. Like, that's its main thing. It's also got fiber and it's got all of these other like properties to it. So when you're consuming it, it feels like you're eating a lot. It's just like if you consume like a huge plate of vegetables, right? There's not going to be a lot of calories in those vegetables, but it's gonna look like a lot. Like, if you hand me a big salad, I'm gonna be like, whoa, that looks big. And then you hand me like this little bowl of pasta, it might not look as big,

• 32:51Speaker 01

  but it's gonna have way more calories in it than my big salad, right, of vegetables. You know, if you don't put dressing on it. So it's all about the caloric intake. So the small bag of chips has likely far more calories than the half a watermelon or the few pieces of watermelon, whatever you're eating of the watermelon.

• 33:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, right.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  So that's really what you're looking at. It's all about the calories that you're consuming.

• 33:13Trevor Noah?

  Am I correct in then saying, if I think of it as an analogy, it's like, calories are like words in a song, right? You can have a rap song where there's like a lot of words in each line, just a lot of words. And then you can have like opera or something where it's like one word for the whole, you know what I mean? Ave Maria. That was only two words. I'm sorry about my friend. No, no, no. This is, hey, hey.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  The watermelon is Ave Maria in this analogy.

• 33:46Trevor Noah?

  Thank you, thank you. You see, experts don't judge people. You're the one who fell for the sticky lizard scam. No, that is why. And you're falling for Ave Maria now. No, that is why she's an expert who's connecting with people. Because she doesn't treat people like idiots when they're trying to understand. Dr. Jessica, you have to learn to say no. No, no, no.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  I actually think it's a good analogy.

• 34:03Trevor Noah?

  Thank you very much. That's what I was thinking to myself inside. Yes, because now it's helping me understand. I never fully, I won't lie, I never fully understood it.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:10Trevor Noah?

  But now when you're saying it, I'm going like, okay, Ave Maria is two words, but look at how long it, you get what I'm saying? Yeah. And then like, if you go to like a rap song or something, then it's lyrically dense.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 34:23Trevor Noah?

  Do you get what I'm saying?

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Lyrically dense is calorically dense.

• 34:26Trevor Noah?

  Aha, I see.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  The chips are calorically dense. And then you add to it, they don't have fiber and they don't have protein.

• 34:33Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so those things are like separate to the calories.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:36Trevor Noah?

  Ah, you see, I don't think most people know this.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  They're not separate to the calories, like protein is is involved in the calories, but they help to make you feel fuller faster.

• 34:44Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so they'd like teaming up with the calorie to do a better thing for the, ah, okay.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Or else if you have just the calories by themselves, they don't have a teammate and then they actually become bad for you.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Well, you can't just have calories by themselves, because calories, I mean, do you really want me to get into the nutrition science?

• 35:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, this is, this is what people need to learn. I genuinely, yeah, okay.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  So there's what, we have macronutrients and micronutrients. Okay. Micronutrients are vitamins and minerals, right? Vitamin C, vitamin D, whatever it is. Macronutrients are calorie-containing nutrients. So that's protein, carbohydrates, and fat. Those are the, those are the three, like, pro, so, so everything you eat is comprised of I and or protein, carbohydrates, fat.

• 35:25Trevor Noah?

  Got it.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  And, and two out of those three.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  And those all have calories.

• 35:27Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Two out of those three have been demonized. Carbs and fat.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we need all of them. They're all very important.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, they all play roles in our, in our physiology.

• 35:38Trevor Noah?

  So if you were advising somebody on their diets and they said, I'm staying away from carbohydrates and fats, you would be not happy?

• 35:45Speaker 01

  No, because you cannot eat a hundred percent protein diet. That would be very bad for your body.

• 35:50Trevor Noah?

  Why is that bad for your body?

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Because, well, first of all, we run on carbohydrates. I mean, that's, that's, and we're getting our fiber from carbohydrates. That's the only place you can get your fiber. Um, and, uh, you also need fat for your brain health, for many things, for nerve signaling. So fat's incredibly essential, particularly, I mean, for all of us. So each, each macronutrient has a really important role in our body. And, and they all kind of play together. And so you can say, I'm going to eat a lower carbohydrate diet, and that could be potentially beneficial for someone.

• 36:18Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  But you can't just like cut out carbohydrates and fat and only eat protein, like just only eating like raw chicken breast. Which also would have a little fat. It's hard to get like pure protein unless you're eating just all ultra-processed protein powder.

• 36:32Trevor Noah?

  So when we see these people selling that diet online where they go, I've just been eating meat only for two months and I feel amazing and now there's no cancer in my body. We should be skeptical of that.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and just to be clear, meat has fat, right? So if you're eating like steak or you're eating really any meat, it's gonna have some fat. So meat has protein and fat without carbohydrates.

• 36:51Trevor Noah?

  Okay, got it.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  So they're eating a protein fat diet without carbohydrates. And yeah, I'm, uh, um, the, what the literature says is there can be short term benefits for some people on a diet like that, where you're really reducing carbohydrates, like a ketogenic diet or a carnivore diet. Um, but the long term literature does not pan out. Like, we don't have good, good evidence that that's sustainable for the long term.

• 37:12Trevor Noah?

  When we, when we look at food labels, how are we able to discern any of this ourselves? So, you know, I know there's that like simple rule that they give you where they say, if you wanna stay healthy, stay on the outside of a grocery store.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 37:25Trevor Noah?

  And they go like, just never go in.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 37:27Trevor Noah?

  So stay on the perimeter and then leave. And they say you will be healthier.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 37:32Trevor Noah?

  Right, but, but if people are looking at a package, how do you know when the thing is or isn't bad? Because I remember once seeing, um, um, RFK was talking about like ingredients in food and he was like, and he was like,

• 37:46Trevor Noah?

  and I had to read the subtitles.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  I was like, sticky lizard, is that you?

• 37:51Trevor Noah?

  No, and he would, and then he was like talking about the thing. And he said like, uh, this is, what is this, what is this, what? And, and then there were scientists who came on and said, no, that's just the scientific name for vitamin C.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was riboflavin, I think, in that video.

• 38:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and it was like, oh, no, that's just the scientific name for, for salt. And that's the scientific, so, like, is, is there a shortcut? Or is there a way to know what like the colloquial word is versus the scientific word? Or like, how, how, how are people supposed to know this? Cause it all seems like it's poison when you read it on a bag. But then some of it is not, and then some of it may be.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  So when you're looking at a nutrition label, and this is why I'm like, I'm a big advocate of front of package labeling, which is like more clear for people to really understand, oh, this is high in sugar, or this is high in fat.

• 38:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  So people are more aware. Right now, we don't have that, but they're working on it. But we have labels and you'll always be able to see the amount of calories, the amount of protein and carbohydrates and fats, and then an ingredient list.

• 38:53Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  And so, you know, it depends on what someone's goal is really. Like, if you're looking at a label, I don't actually look at labels much myself.

• 39:01Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Because I kind of, you know, I don't eat a ton of like prepackaged food, but the prepackaged food I eat, you know, if I'm buying like crackers or something, you can look at it if you want to and like look at how much fat a cracker has, and then you can compare it to another cracker that has a bit lower fat. But, you know, if you are just kind of like shopping for yourself, I don't, the label, the label can give you, you know, the way that the ingredients label is, is that it's the first ingredient is the largest in the in the food.

• 39:34Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  And then it goes down from there. And so a lot of times in the ingredient list, it's like vitamins and minerals. And there's a lot of them, especially like wheat products, because we fortify our wheat here. And so they have like different B vitamins in them. So a lot of times it can feel very overwhelming to see like a big, long ingredient list, but it's not as overwhelming as one might think.

• 39:53Trevor Noah?

  That's interesting, because it's actually just contained in the food, because that's how the food was made.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:58Trevor Noah?

  Like the actual, yeah, you see, I didn't know that about wheat in that.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Fortifying, we fortify with like vitamins.

• 40:03Trevor Noah?

  Right, right, right.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  And minerals in the, in the wheat.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  So you'd find that people who work out will have a pre-workout meal and a post-workout meal sometimes. Maybe it's a shake, maybe it's a salad, whatever it is. The average person who doesn't work out, do you have to be conscious about if you're gonna have maybe a busy day and you're gonna work, you're gonna walk like maybe four miles today? Can you specifically look into your pantry or your fridge and go, I'm gonna eat like this because I'm gonna be active, versus I know I'm not gonna get out the house for the next four days, so eating this might be bad for me?

• 40:35Speaker 01

  In terms of the amount that they're eating?

• 40:36Speaker 02

  In terms of the kind of food and the amount that they're eating.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Uh, they're, so they're going for a walk for?

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's say I know that this week I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  I'm gonna walk a lot, so I'm gonna walk from home to work.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Is there specific foods that I should avoid if I know that next week I'm working from home? I shouldn't eat any of these?

• 40:53Speaker 01

  No, no, I think that, you know, it, you can, you can like down regulate the amount of food that you're eating. If you down regulate your, your energy expenditure, your, or your physical activity.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Explain down regulate, Dr. Jessica.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Like you can, you can decrease, right? You don't have to eat as much um food. So you'll eat more food when you're more physically active. And then the next week, if you're less physically active, and that's where like hunger signals come in.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Right? And so if you, if you feel hungry, you eat again, kind of like try to digest your food. Eat till you are no longer hungry. Um, don't overeat just because it like, you know, continues to taste so good.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Um, or like hobby wise, a lot of us will do that just like out of habit. Um, and so just, you know, eat to fullness and then, and then the next week you probably won't be as hungry. And so like you will not probably eat as much. You don't have to plan for it, though.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  How important is listening to your body? Because sometimes like what you touched on, this hobby eating and habit eating.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  It's quite prevalent right now, right? You see something on television, on social media, go, I think I'll order one of those. But how is it, how is it, how important is it to listen to your body and go? It might be six o'clock and I usually eat at this time, but today I'm not hungry.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really, it's really important to listen to your body. Um, and not, yeah, and not override signals. And, and that's why like distraction can be a problem too sometimes. So like if we're really distracted or really stressed or really, you know, doing things while we're eating. It can lead to overeating versus just kind of like being present with your meal and sitting there. And now we're getting into like the psychology of eating, but it is, it's a lot of like presence can really help in terms of like understanding your own hunger and, and satiety cues.

• 42:24Trevor Noah?

  Do you think there needs to be, uh, it's interesting that you said that. Do you think there needs to be an overlap in how we talk about these subjects? Because for a long time, experts have always like stayed in their lane. And I mean, like just stayed in their lane.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:37Trevor Noah?

  You know?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 42:38Trevor Noah?

  They'll go like, no, no, I'm a bone doctor. And you're like, but are you a doctor? They're like, yes, of bones. Like, but can you tell me what's, they're like, no.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 42:46Trevor Noah?

  Bones.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 42:48Trevor Noah?

  And I'm not saying they shouldn't do that, but. It it almost feels like then the gaps open up for the people who are like, oh, I can tell you about bones and more. And those people may not be the experts, you know, like I've I've seen a bunch of your videos where, for instance, you're talking to moms. And I understand why, because you told us the personal connection you have with misinformation online to moms. But I've I've noticed that you you get into the emotional side of things. You don't just say, here's the facts, here's the, you'll say like, I know you're scared. Or, hey, it might be scary when you hear, or when you you might be worried about that, or here's, you feel like you want to. When did, when did you decide, or why do you think it's important to to make that shift and expand beyond like just the literature and the science and include the human on

• 43:32Trevor Noah?

  the other side of the information?

• 43:34Speaker 01

  I think I benefit from my audience and the the conversations that I have, like in my DMs, which I, which I actually do engage with quite often, and and hearing how much stress and anxiety and and food anxiety many of these women have. And and again, I went through this life stage of pregnancy and postpartum, and I actually, with my second, I had pretty bad postpartum anxiety. And so I, it was important to, it's, I mean, I I kind of lived it. And so I understand how they are feeling.

• 44:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  And I think that that gives me a lot of empathy for what's, what they're, what they're going through. And so that's actually why I also am like so committed to kind of correcting some of this misinformation, particularly that that's targeted at new moms and young moms.

• 44:17Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Because, because anxiety is really high. And so I hear from women all the time in my DMs about how much food anxiety they have and how they're scared to eat anything and how, you know, because that's, that's what the, if you get into a particular algorithm on social media and you just keep seeing the same things over and over, and that's what plays really well to social media algorithms, are these conspiratorial kind of really sensational claims. It can be really problematic. And so I think it's really important to me when I'm presenting information to meet people where they are and and kind of like bridge that gap. So then they'll be more open to kind of hearing the information that I'm providing and and the data that I'm providing.

• 44:52Trevor Noah?

  We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

• 44:58Trevor Noah?

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• 46:24Trevor Noah?

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• 47:07Trevor Noah?

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• 47:52Trevor Noah?

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• 48:09Trevor Noah?

  What's your, what's your bat signal? Like, what's the thing that you see that makes you go, "Time to get the cape out."

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 48:16Trevor Noah?

  Cause there's got, no, because I mean, I think of, I think of you like that.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  Whoa, I don't think of Jessica like that at all.

• 48:21Trevor Noah?

  What do you mean?

• 48:22Speaker 02

  I really, I really don't think of Jessica.

• 48:25Trevor Noah?

  You don't think of her like a superhero? Yeah, because, because in one moment you're sitting at home.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  Hey guys, let's get the bat signal out.

• 48:32Trevor Noah?

  No, but yeah, but that's true.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Let's get the bats.

• 48:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but everyone has their Batman, especially because you, think about it. You're sitting at home, right? You're a mom and you're a doctor, yes, but you're at home. There's got to be something that you see that makes you go, "I gotta get my bat cape." Like, I want to know what that thing is.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Trevor, don't do that.

• 48:47Trevor Noah?

  So you don't want her to be Batman?

• 48:48Speaker 02

  No, don't do that.

• 48:49Trevor Noah?

  You're saying Dr. Jessica can't be Batman?

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Go back to how when she sees the.

• 48:53Trevor Noah?

  Oh yeah, you gotta do it. You, so you're at home.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:55Trevor Noah?

  You hang out with the kids, you're doing your whole thing. And then a video comes up, you're like, what is this video? And then you see the video and you're like, "I've got a sense, I've got to do something about this." What are you looking for?

• 49:05Speaker 01

  That's exactly how I'm gonna say it from now on.

• 49:10Trevor Noah?

  What are, like, what are you looking for that triggers? Because there could be things that people have, there's old wives tales. Right.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:19Trevor Noah?

  I could be wrong on this, but a lot of them aren't really harmful. They just don't do. You know, it's like people throw salts over you. It's things like that in even in nutrition, I'm assuming. Yeah. And then there are things that are actually detrimental to people's health. Misinformation. Misinformation that'll that'll hurt you. Right. Cause there's useless misinformation. Right. And there's misinformation that'll hurt you. When you're online and you're seeing these videos, what's something that triggers you to go, oh, no, no, no, I've got to step in and like, for instance, what's the most recent one that you did where you went, oh, Yeah. I've got to step in here.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. So usually it's someone will, most of the things that I um respond to, people have sent me. And so if somebody sends it to me and then I see it and it they are very concerned, that's like a, that's one of the signals that I look at. So, oh, my gosh, they're they're concerned. Then I'll go watch the video and if I see in the comment section, a lot of people who are either being misled by it or being concerned by it, um, that's that's usually what I look for. So it's like videos that a lot of people are influencing a lot of people or are confusing a lot of people. Um, that's that's generally what I'll do. And then I also kind of think, can I provide a good rebuttal that's not too in the weeds in a succinct amount of time? Cause it's social media, right? And so if it if it's going to be like a 10 minute rebuttal, it's usually something that I'll kind of put to the side.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Um, but if it's something that I'm like, I can literally just show a couple of articles about exactly how false this is, then then that's something that I'll kind of pick up. So something that's like in the vernacular, in in the like, we're we're all talking about it.

• 50:46Trevor Noah?

  Okay, got it, got it. Yeah.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  And that's in like the our thoughts.

• 50:49Trevor Noah?

  The zeitgeist.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, the zeitgeist.

• 50:50Trevor Noah?

  We're in the zeitgeist.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then um, and then can I really like respond to it effectively in a short amount of time?

• 50:57Trevor Noah?

  Do the other people ever respond back to you? Like, because you're out there saying, this is false, this is fake. Do those people ever come back at you?

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, it's happened a few times.

• 51:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Usually they just block me.

• 51:09Trevor Noah?

  Oh, lazy. So they don't like try and challenge you at all?

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Not usually, no.

• 51:14Trevor Noah?

  Ah, man.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Sometimes though.

• 51:16Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah?

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, sometimes they refuse to like accept what I've said to, or they'll just kind of like dig in. Um, just depends on who it is, I suppose.

• 51:25Trevor Noah?

  So in that type of scenario, when someone is claiming to be an expert and another person is an expert. How do you then show a neutral observer where the truth actually lies?

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So I um, I don't rely on them to just believe me because I'm me. I that's, that's why I use so many like references in my videos and I'll show like if I, if I tell you, for example, um, a lot of people on social media are saying like synthetic food dyes are banned in Europe.

• 51:54Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yeah.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Like you've probably heard it, red dye forty is banned in Europe. So I will, and I, I think that's a harmful narrative because what it does is it kind of like plays into this idea that like America is poisoning us and all these other countries care. Their scientists care and their regulatory agencies care and they're banning these things. And that's just not true. And so what I'll do is I'll show, you know, all five synthetic food dyes that are used in the United States predominantly, which is red, red forty, yellow five, yellow six, blue one and blue two have all been deemed safe by EFSA in the European Union.

• 52:26Trevor Noah?

  Oh, they have.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  All of them. Yeah. See, see your, you.

• 52:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, no, I didn't.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  This is because of the narrative on social media and, and they have, they've all been deemed safe.

• 52:35Trevor Noah?

  I knew that they were deemed safe, but I didn't know that they were also deemed safe in Europe. Does that make sense?

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Yes. So yeah, so they're deemed safe here by the FDA.

• 52:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  But they're also deemed safe in, in the European Union by EFSA. And so I'll go and I'll show kind of like the, their regulatory agency, or not the regulatory, but their, their scientific safety agency, and I'll show how they're, they've been deemed safe. So you don't have to take my word for it. Go fact check me. Um, but I'm going to bring this information to you so that you're aware that it's not, it's not a difference in regulation.

• 53:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Um, and then, and then I kind of like will walk them through, uh, you know, whatever else we're talking about. But I think that that's really helpful to kind of give people their own ability to then go and look into it more if they want to, or actually like show them why it's false instead of just kind of relying on them believing me that it's false. Like I'm doing right now because I'm not really showing you that it's false, but go fact check me.

• 53:23Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no. I mean, I'll, I'll read this, but I, what I'm saying is like, I knew one part of it is what I'm saying. Do you know, it's like, I just knew one piece of it and then I didn't know another piece of it. And I think that's, that's actually what people don't realize. That's, that's fertile ground for misinformation. A lot of people think, and this is something that I, I had to learn and I, I learned it acutely during COVID. Before that, I didn't really need to know it, I think. I didn't understand how so many people felt the way they did about vaccines, right? And forget the covid vaccines. I will always say that to people who are even like fighting with that. I go like, let's forget the covid vaccine for a moment. Take it away. Cause I understand this was a unique moment in time. It was fast. It was, it's confused. Let's forget it. Hmm.

• 54:04Trevor Noah?

  But vaccines themselves, I don't understand how you're against them. They'll be like, because they're not safe and they're not this. Then I go like, I grew up in a country where like my arm looks like a war zone. Do you know what I mean? It's like, I've got every vaccine. You've got every vaccine. Our parents have every vaccine. Everyone's just, you, please tell me you've been vaccinated.

• 54:23Trevor Noah?

  But they didn't give us a choice. You were in school, bam bam bam, jab jab jab, and they did the thing. Polio vaccine. Yeah, like all, all, yeah, all of these things, right? And so what I then realized was it's sort of the opposite. It's not the people who don't know anything. It's the people who are actually reading and trying to learn and really informing themselves. Yeah. That are oftentimes the most susceptible to the misinformation. Because they quote unquote, do their own research. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So they go, well, I actually read this and I read this. And have you seen that video? And I saw the study that was done and I saw this and then it's like, is it a study? Is it not a study? It was a study on five people who conducted the study. How do you even know when a study is good? Is it a meta-analyses or is it a?

• 55:06Trevor Noah?

  It, it becomes, but that's where it's the fertile ground. And so like the milk, make America, make America healthy again movement. Yeah, Maha. Hmm. If you look at it, the eighty percent of what they're saying is sort of like the truth. The twenty percent is where they make the money and the magic happen.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  I mean, that's the best kind of misinformation. You, you have a little bit of truth and that's what gets people, that's what brings people in.

• 55:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Right? It's like, oh, they're, they're helping, even if it's like eighty percent of the time, they're helping, right? Some of these people. And it's like, they're giving out good information, but it's the twenty percent of the time where they're completely manipulating the narrative. And then, you know, taking advantage of you and the narrative. Um, that's really the biggest problem. So yeah, I think, I think you're right. There is a problem right now because um, much of the misinformation we see, which is sometimes why it's so hard to kind of combat it and, and like explain the nuance because there's, there's overlap there. There's like, we, yes, this is true. And here is how that is being manipulated.

• 56:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, because you now have, you have to go yes first. And people are like, oh, so you do agree. And then you're like, but, but, but, and now, now it's too late. Like seed oils is a good one. Hmm. That, that's like one of those myths that also doesn't go away. Do you ever see these where no matter what happens, they just keep coming back, they just keep coming back, they just. So like seed oil is a good one.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Sunflower oil versus canola oil.

• 56:27Trevor Noah?

  Just seed oils.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Those are both seed oils.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  In South Africa, that's what's going on now.

• 56:30Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's the fight to South Africa.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  Cause they're going canola is canola oil is used for things that you wouldn't wanna know about. Then people for a long time were using canola oil over sunflower oil.

• 56:40Trevor Noah?

  Huh, and now the switch is people are going back to sunflower.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Canola oil, canola oil, canola oil, canola, canola, canola. So there's a big drive, I think it's a fight back, obviously from the sunflower industry. That's going, you need to use sunflower oil, you need to use sunflower oil. So a lot of people now have moved there, avocado oil hasn't caught on that much. And obviously olive oil hasn't caught on that much, but the big battle right now in South Africa is between canola oil and olive oil.

• 57:01Trevor Noah?

  So are are seed oils.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  I mean, and sunflower oil.

• 57:04Trevor Noah?

  So are seed oils toxic?

• 57:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  Is palm oil toxic?

• 57:09Speaker 01

  No, well, palm oil has some issues with the environment, right? And with like that, that sort of thing, but all seed oils, what the best nutrition science research that we have. Suggests the exact opposite than than that they're toxic. And this is where, again, a little bit of a little bit of truth, kind of like gets kind of spun into these interesting narratives. So seed oils, which are basically vegetable oils, that's what that's what we've called them. They're like sunflower, safflower, canola, rapeseed in other countries. These these oils are used all around the world, right? It's not just in the United States. And what we have in terms of nutrition science research, when we look at epidemiological data and we look at people who are actually consuming seed oils.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  It it shows the exact opposite that then they're harmful for us. It actually shows a cardi- cardioprotective mechanism so that it it looks like it looks like they are cardioprotective. Especially when you switch them for saturated fats.

• 58:06Trevor Noah?

  What are saturated fats, like beef tallow?

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, beef tallow.

• 58:09Trevor Noah?

  Cause beef tallow I've now seen online, that's the healthy thing, this is the best thing to use, you should only be using beef tallow.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's.

• 58:15Trevor Noah?

  They're like, you should wash your face in beef tallow.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:17Trevor Noah?

  Do you remember when they're telling you to wash your face in coconut oil? There was the coconut oil revolution. I tried it, it was terrible.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:23Trevor Noah?

  It just blocks your pores.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:25Trevor Noah?

  And you smell like coconut the whole day and you just get like really hungry.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  All day long.

• 58:30Trevor Noah?

  All day long.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  When you walk in the sun or?

• 58:32Trevor Noah?

  Anywhere. I would just smell coconut everywhere I was going.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  You smell sauteed.

• 58:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and then I was just like, it was terrible for like managing my hunger.

• 58:41Speaker 02

  I'm always fascinated about.

• 58:42Trevor Noah?

  Wait, wait, wait, wait.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Let me, let me explain the seed oil thing though.

• 58:45Trevor Noah?

  Yes, seed oil, sorry.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Because they do take, I mean, there is it, and this is something that happens actually a lot in, in social media narratives with nutrition. They'll take a, a mechanism that's true.

• 58:55Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  And then they will expand upon that to where we don't have any evidence to suggest that's true. So for example, seed oils have some, they're high in alpha linoleic acid and, and linoleic acid. And so that's, those are polyunsaturated fatty acids. And so that converts to something called arachidonic acid. And when we look in a lab setting, that increases inflammation, right? It can increase the inflammatory cascade. And that, that is true when that, when that conversion happens. But when we look, first of all, that conversion doesn't happen very much at all. And second of all, when we look at it in a human model, because humans are complex, our bodies are complex and not everything always like, we might hypothesize because this happened in the lab, it's going to happen when we look at like humans living their lives.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  And oftentimes that's not the case because again, we're complex. And so when we look at human models and we look at people who have been living and consuming seed oils, we just don't see that same effect. So we don't see higher inflammation. We don't see negative impacts. We actually see that people who are eating more of these, these polyunsaturated fatty acids have better health outcomes. And so another, but another truth is that seed oils, because they're highly processed, because they're cheap and because they are relatively flavorless compared to something like canola oil, they're used in a lot of these prepackaged ultra-processed foods. And so we are consuming a lot of these prepackaged ultra-processed foods.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  And so we're over-consuming seed oils, which can be prob, if you overconsume anything, including watermelon, it can be problematic for your health, right? And so those truths exist. But what, what does not exist is this idea that seed oils are toxic and why that's so harmful. You know, my mother-in-law, she's from Romania and she pretty much exclusively cooks in quote unquote, seed oils, right? Like vegetable oil. But she's like sauteing vegetables and their foods and things. And so if you're telling someone who's using that because it's an affordable, accessible oil, that it's toxic, but they're eating a pretty nutrient-dense diet and just using that oil, that's very harmful and problematic. Because because what are you saying that they have to go and buy like the regenerate like regenerative olive oil from like the farm with the grazing cows?

• 1:01:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  Like, that's just not sustainable for people. So we have to, we have to like live in reality and and understand that like, science does not say that these oils are harmful or toxic. And they're accessible and affordable for people, which is, I think, an important distinction.

• 1:01:19Trevor Noah?

  But I think to Eugene's point, and I mean, we've seen this, it's not even a conspiracy. We've seen how we're also like, you're fighting with, you know, misinformation. But we also forget that there's a company in the background somewhere, there's a food lobby somewhere that's trying to push something to push something else out, to push something in. Like, look at how many years fat was bad. And then we found out, remember in that investigation where like the sugar lobby worked really well to vilify fat and carbohydrates? And then only now are we going, oh, damn, sugar, you know, we didn't realize that sugar was copious amounts of sugar. Because again, nothing is just bad. But sugar was the thing we should have been looking for in excessive amounts. But then it's fat free.

• 1:02:02Speaker 02

  You're right.

• 1:02:03Trevor Noah?

  If it was fat free, it was good for you. And you're like, I can eat as much of it as I want because it's fat free. So I will not get fat.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's important. And I think you're you're drawing an important distinction based on what what are corporations going to do? First of all, the media is going to sensationalize like science findings, right? A study, they're going to sensationalize the findings. But then corporations, they're going to take any little thing and try to spin it as the like the best thing for them, right? So they're and they'll use it in marketing. So if, you know, if there's a study that comes out that shows something good about blueberries, right? Like, a product that has blueberries is going to put that on their label and be like, this is the best thing that's ever happened, right? And so so the problem is we need to be better at regulating those marketing claims. And and so there are, there are quite a few claims that are regulated. I think they just added like healthy last year, but there's quite a few that aren't.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  So they they can put it on the label and just kind of like as a marketing tool for for the company.

• 1:02:59Trevor Noah?

  There's also a bunch.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Protein is that.

• 1:03:01Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, protein's having.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  If you just hit just enough protein, they can be like, high in protein. And that's like a marketing thing for these companies.

• 1:03:08Speaker 02

  I think organic for a long time was one of those.

• 1:03:09Trevor Noah?

  Oh, they nailed that one.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, organic is very regulated, though. So like you have to meet organic standards.

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  What are organic standards? Let's say in meat or let's say in fruit and vegetables.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, I do not know exactly what the organic standards are, but I just know that you like you have to use specific pesticides and like fruits and vegetables. For example, you can't use non-organic pesticides, you use organic pesticides. Um, and there's, I don't think it can be GMO. I think there's a couple of other like categorizations that, but I'm, but I'm not sure exactly what it is.

• 1:03:38Trevor Noah?

  Can I, can I just say something that I've noticed, which I really enjoy about talking to experts? Is you say, I don't know a lot.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:46Trevor Noah?

  I don't know if you've noticed this, this is, and this is, it's so refreshing because we live in a world where most people we interact with on this level are online, right? And so we've been sold this idea that certainty about everything means that the person is an expert.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:00Trevor Noah?

  It, you know, there's expert, expert, expert, expert. And what's started to give me a little more solace and, and even, you know, to your point, like a understanding what a red flag is, is experts will tell you where their expertise ends. So you've said it, you know, we've had a, a, um, a neuroscientist on the podcast and they'll go, uh, actually, I don't know because that part I don't, I think this because I know that part of it, but I don't know about this completely. And I wonder if that's also something we should look at as a, as a red flag is if the person is all knowing about everything all the time, something's fishy.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that is a good, good use of red flags on social media. Yeah. If somebody is like appearing to be particularly like if they say they're a doctor and then they don't put their credentials in the actual like profile. So they'll call themselves doctor so and so, but there'll be no credentials. Um, usually I have found that they are practicing outside of their scope of practice. They're just, you know, you'll look at their page and they're an expert in nutrition and an expert in brain science and an expert in this and that. And so, um, that is a good thing to, I think to look at.

• 1:05:09Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like I've always wondered, how does somebody who is, is just, let's say they're, they're a doctor of whatever. Is a medical doctor or they've got a doctorate, so they can say doctor. How do they know about like 5G and wifi? I'm always, uh, cause I go, uh, aren't these two things separate? And again, maybe I'm wrong, but I, I don't know that in medical school, you're learning about. The frequencies and radio waves and you you do you know what I mean but I but I like how do you deal with those types of claims do you do you then pass it off to somebody do you you know like what do you do with that when somebody says to you um oh uh doctor Jessica this is this thing here is also does this cause that what do you say to them in that instance do you go well I

• 1:05:51Trevor Noah?

  just don't know move on to someone else or have you like formed like a little team of experts who you can pass it on to

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  I have yeah so if somebody asks me a question that's just outside my scope of practice they they do that quite often with like um like in uh beauty toxins like so like you know the clean beauty movement and that's just not my area they asked me like what about this ingredient lotion I have absolutely no idea so I have like cosmetic chemists that I'll refer people to

• 1:06:15Trevor Noah?

  I love that

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  yeah so so that it's helpful to have like a little network of people who are outside your area

• 1:06:20Trevor Noah?

  almost like Avengers

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  yeah

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  Avengers of health

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  the science communication Avengers

• 1:06:26Trevor Noah?

  it actually is that's like I mean that's fundamentally what we need

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  you're the Batman

• 1:06:29Trevor Noah?

  well Batman's not in in um in um it's DC and Marvel

• 1:06:34Speaker 02

  there's no inclusion yeah

• 1:06:35Trevor Noah?

  no no I'm just saying I'm not I'm not coming anymore you can't come Batman sorry like legally Marvel owns

• 1:06:40Speaker 02

  I like I like how in his fantasy world you can have a male voice and drop your kids and go I need to go online but you can be in another comic strip

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  yeah he has like these boundaries that don't

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  hey man I draw the line at her crossing over but her being a man

• 1:06:55Trevor Noah?

  I'm listen this is legal this is what this is okay yes I do not want to be sued by Marvel or by DC for saying that somebody is in another universe okay

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  you know what I love about you you're always with

• 1:07:13Trevor Noah?

  um I I wanted to ask you why you why you chose the style that you chose for debunking things um and maybe it ties into what you were saying about the scientific community and academia in general it's always been very you know it's like Eugene do your glasses it's been very that

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  yeah

• 1:07:31Trevor Noah?

  yeah you know what I mean

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  yeah

• 1:07:32Trevor Noah?

  it's that thing and you use humor you you're really engaging you you take it seriously but you do not take yourself too seriously

• 1:07:43Speaker 02

  yeah

• 1:07:44Trevor Noah?

  why did why did you choose that approach you know because you could have come in and just been like I'm an expert here's what it is but but you you didn't you've you've gone for something that isn't necessarily associated with academia and with like rigorous studies why that choice

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. I don't know. I think it's just naturally who I am. So it's probably just like lucky me that I chose something that I kind of approach it that way. This is a natural thing. I also think that I have recognized that we have this. We're living in this moment that people don't necessarily trust experts.

• 1:08:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  And they don't necessarily trust scientists as much as they did before. And it's not as bad as social media might have you believe because I just presented on some data. I was speaking at the Mayo Clinic a few weeks ago and I presented data on like the trustworthiness of different professions and scientists and medical professionals are actually still some of the most trustworthy people when you compare them to, you know, other professions. And so I don't know that the problem is as bad as we see it, but it's certainly declining. And so I think it's really important to like humanize like experts and scientists in particular because that's my space. I think, you know, we take a lot, we should take some blame for the fact that people don't necessarily trust or are losing trust in science. And that's because, you know, scientists for a long time and even still today,

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  we write in a language that's not accessible to people. We speak in a language that's not accessible to people, like your glasses, right? Yeah, and we publish our work behind paywalls that are not accessible to people. Where you have to pay like $85 to read a single research article. And so I think it's, that's been a problem. And so we need to kind of like put a face to people who are, who are doing the research. And I, you know, I think that science communication is actually becoming more of an important field so that we can bridge that gap between like the researchers in the lab and then like what people actually need to know so that we're able to fill some of that gap too. But I think like what, to your point of like humanizing, like being human, right? And like inserting, you know, a personality.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  I just think that that helps to build trust too, right? So like when you can, you have to like know the person to then learn from the person. And so, so that's part of it.

• 1:09:54Trevor Noah?

  I also like the fact that you're giving it to people for free. You know, this is something that we don't focus enough on in society. And it's that you have to pay for the truth, but lies are free. You know what I mean?

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:06Trevor Noah?

  Like, there's no website that has lies that you have to pay for. Search anything online, search about any story, any news article, any health article, you name it. The art, the news, the websites and the pages that are fake.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:23Trevor Noah?

  Are free.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  You're right, yeah.

• 1:10:25Trevor Noah?

  And then when it's a real thing, they'll be like, would you like to pay for the truth? And I'm like, yeah, but if it's so important, why? And don't get me wrong.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal.

• 1:10:32Trevor Noah?

  Exactly, and don't get me wrong, I understand that.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  They have to pay their people.

• 1:10:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, they have to pay people, etc. But it is sad that we, we live in a world and, and that's why I also appreciate that because this is not your job. And yet you are giving people education that they wouldn't otherwise be able to access if they weren't in the institutions that you're in.

• 1:10:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, you, you're, you're bringing up a point that's kind of, um, it, it's, it's like nuanced because we have to also figure out a way to make it sustainable for people to do.

• 1:11:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  Like, like science communicators and things like that. And so, you know, we're, there still has to be conversation about how to do that. But yeah, I, I think that it's really important and, and that's why, I mean, I have a sub stack that I never put things behind paywalls and that's why, like, I want people to have access to, to the information. Um, because I think that that's really important and we, they shouldn't, you know, we, you don't want to put things behind paywalls if you really want people to understand them. But I also understand the other side that people have to make a living, you know?

• 1:11:27Trevor Noah?

  I feel like in a perfect world, that, that'd sort of be like a fund maybe or a, like in a perfect world, every university would be, and I know many do, by the way, don't get me wrong, in, you know, certain courses. But every university should be giving away a portion of their education for free. You get what I'm saying? So that education is not only limited to the people who can pay for it.

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  Well, I guess that's what scholarships are.

• 1:11:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I'm saying even beyond that, I say like on, I mean, just, just.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Public the information.

• 1:11:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, meet the people where they are. I know Harvard does it, there's a few of them where you'll be shocked at how many courses you can do at a high level university without ever going there.

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:02Trevor Noah?

  But nobody knows about it is, is the weird thing. You, you don't know that if you go to that page and you click on it, there are free courses you can do on a whole host of things that won't make you an expert.

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:12:12Trevor Noah?

  But at least will give you, you know, a basic level of knowledge that welcomes you into the game without you paying anything.

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, a few things I've learned this week is the human body is a very complicated machine. And I think we're still trying to figure it out. Scientists, I think, they're still trying to figure out how the human body works. And another part, thanks to you, is that nutrition can be a complicated subject if it's led by the wrong information, right? So if people know what to eat and what not to eat, people will be healthier. But I also feel like society has made certain body type look unhealthy and certain body types look healthy.

• 1:12:43Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  So if you're super skinny, we assume that you are healthy. If you're not super skinny, we assume that you are unhealthy. And I think that psychologically, as a nation, as a country, as a people, we need to do a lot in just convincing people that body types might be different. Appetites might be different, likes might be different, but the healthiness is not determined by what someone looks like, right?

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's much more determined by the behaviors that that person is engaging in, right? And so you're you're absolutely right. Like, we can all, we just just naturally, we all have different body types. And what's interesting is that's kind of like flipped in terms of like the public perception of it.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  It really is amazing, yeah.

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, and you guys probably know this even better, but it used to be if you had a bit more weight, that was looked at as a helpful thing versus versus the opposite.

• 1:13:26Trevor Noah?

  The flip for me was just coming from South Africa to the US.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:30Trevor Noah?

  When, I mean, you remember when we were growing up.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:32Trevor Noah?

  There were as many, if not more, jokes about a person being skinny.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:36Trevor Noah?

  Like nicknames, Sticks Manzanza, you know what I mean? All those things.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  Sticky Malinky.

• 1:13:40Trevor Noah?

  Sticky Malinky, all of, you know what I mean?

• 1:13:42Speaker 02

  Wishbone.

• 1:13:43Trevor Noah?

  There you go.

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  Max Stick.

• 1:13:44Trevor Noah?

  Eugene wrote most of them.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  There are really this many?

• 1:13:49Trevor Noah?

  No, there really are. No, there really, there are tons, tons and tons of them. And like, your parents would even roast you as well, if you were like skinny.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:13:56Trevor Noah?

  They would even be, and then people would roast your family and they'd roast, and you could.

• 1:13:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:00Trevor Noah?

  And then you, and and look, I understood it over time, but you'd come to the US and it would be the opposite.

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:06Trevor Noah?

  And then I realized that no matter where you were, the insult was generally coming from how far you were from society's perception of not just the looks, but wealth. Yeah. So in Africa, if you were skinny, it's because you were poor.

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:14:23Trevor Noah?

  So the further from skinny you could be, the wealthier you were. But then in the United States, the the fatter you were, the further you were from wealth. And so now you could you could pay to look, it it meant that you could get healthy food and vegetables. It meant that you didn't eat takeout every single night of the week. And and going back to what Eugene said, I I love that one point you said about the differences. How do we figure out what a serving size actually means? Cause like, people say like, serves two, one serving. What is a serving, when you think of it as a nutritionist, like, what is or isn't a serving? And how do we think of, should I eat one serving if it says serves one? Is that one for me? Or is the one different for everyone? How does that work?

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, so serving sizes, I mean, there's standard serving sizes and like you can use your palm. Like, for example, protein might be like the palm of your hand. And these are.

• 1:15:13Trevor Noah?

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, let's slow that down. Protein is the palm of your, what do you mean?

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  I mean, that's just kind of like a good marker.

• 1:15:18Trevor Noah?

  Like a good rule of thumb?

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, a good rule of thumb, like the amount.

• 1:15:20Trevor Noah?

  The amount of protein I should eat is the palm of my hand?

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  For one serving, yeah.

• 1:15:24Trevor Noah?

  Wait, wait, but how high does that protein go?

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good question.

• 1:15:28Trevor Noah?

  Cause that's what's always, no, but that's what's always confused me. I'll go to.

• 1:15:33Trevor Noah?

  You, cause you go to, you go to a steak restaurant. How?

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  These are good questions.

• 1:15:38Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but you, how many times has this happened? You go to a place and you go, can I get a steak? Right? If you get like a skirt steak, like it's a little thin, a New York strip steak or some, a strip steak is, they'll give you like a thin. Strip. Right, and that it fills your plate. Right. And then sometimes you go, can I get a different cut? And the meat's like this high, but it's just. Like a filet. That fits in the palm of my hand.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so the palm of your hand is not a perfect measurement. It's just kind of like a general, but there are actual serving sizes. So like meat might be three to four ounces, right? So if you go to a restaurant and you get an eight ounce steak, that's gonna be like.

• 1:16:13Trevor Noah?

  Okay, now we.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Two servings of steak, two to two and a half servings of steak. And so if you're looking at like a label, it will say what the serving size is. So like for cereal, for example, it'll be like three fourths of a cup. And then you like pour it in your bowl and it's like three times three fourths of a cup, right?

• 1:16:29Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  So that's gonna be three servings. So then, again, this is kind of like, this is my nutrition one oh one, of course.

• 1:16:35Trevor Noah?

  I love it, that's what everyone needs.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  If it says a hundred calories for three fourths of a cup, but you pour yourself three servings, which was kind of like a standard cereal bowl, right? You're actually getting three hundred calories, not just one hundred calories from that amount of food. You have to like triple it, cause you're having triple the servings on the label. So, so that's kind of how you would think about it.

• 1:16:56Trevor Noah?

  Is that part of the problem in America? Like, I know this isn't the catchall. But when people travel, everyone will comment on how serving sizes change. You know, they'll go, uh, like a cup of anything in America is massive. Like the movies is the best example.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Trevor Noah?

  When you go to the movies in America and you get a large soda.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:17:15Trevor Noah?

  If you came back with that large soda to South Africa, like the whole village is drinking with you.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:20Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I'm saying?

• 1:17:21Speaker 02

  Except for Kini Malinki.

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  She's napping with a serving of meat.

• 1:17:29Trevor Noah?

  But like, like, like, you know, those, those are also strange signifiers that throw people off. Cause they go, I, I've seen people say this and I don't even mean it in a mean way. They go, I barely eat anything. I had one bowl of granola and I had like one cup of coffee.

• 1:17:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:17:44Trevor Noah?

  Uh, and then I had one this and I had one and I had one sandwich and I had one burger and I, and I can't lose the weight. And, and I, I feel like you would be the perfect person to explain to them how the, like the, the size of the thing makes a difference. Cause you just broke it down with cereal.

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:59Trevor Noah?

  And when you said, just pour three quarters of a cup, I went, I wouldn't, that would. If you came to my house and you were like, you saw me pour a cup of, uh, three quarters of a cup.

• 1:18:11Speaker 02

  I'll be the first person to tell you, I don't know what you're doing.

• 1:18:13Trevor Noah?

  Exactly.

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:14Trevor Noah?

  I've never done that. Uh, you, you fill the bowl.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:17Trevor Noah?

  The bowl must be full.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:18Trevor Noah?

  This is the, so would you tell people to get smaller bowls?

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Pour themselves like wine at home in their glass. It's not actually a serving of wine.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  It's not a serving?

• 1:18:27Trevor Noah?

  No, have you seen how high the wine gets?

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  More like two, like two servings of wine, right?

• 1:18:31Trevor Noah?

  But here's my.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  Your home glass.

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  Here's my thing, the disconnection that people have with their food. Do you find that it is psychologically fair? Cause when I was growing up, my mom, when she would be making dinner, it will take an hour.

• 1:18:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  For her to get everything ready and it would get you anticipate the meal. And she would be like, you can't eat a sandwich. I'm already cooking, gonna ruin your appetite. Do you feel like now people, or you have people who go, if I cook, then I can't eat the food. I don't feel like eating the food anymore.

• 1:18:56Trevor Noah?

  Taste, tasting, eating, doing the whole thing.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  Do you feel like now people have disconnected from the process of making meals? That stops them from enjoying meals versus what you said to me the other day, that the anticipation for a meal nowadays is gone. People are watching TV.

• 1:19:10Trevor Noah?

  Actually, how, is, is that, is that in your field?

• 1:19:12Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:19:13Trevor Noah?

  Discussing how somebody should even think of consuming a meal? Like, does it change what the meal does to them or, you know, to sort of what Eugene is saying is like. Is it detrimental to us to not be part of the food being prepared? And I don't mean like detrimental, detrimental, but other benefits.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, to being kind of disconnected from the, from the whole food system essentially. Yeah, um, so there's some good data like with children, for example. If you integrate children into the like whole process of cooking the meal. I even have a garden for my, for my son, my son, my five year old son. And I started a garden because he gets so excited to like grow like the vegetables. And like he gets, he always goes, unfortunately, only one strawberry the whole season grew this year. But he was out there like every day looking for a strawberry. It was really sad. Actually, to the point that literally a couple of weeks ago, he took strawberries from the refrigerator and put it into the garden and then came and got us and was like, look.

• 1:20:09Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's adorable. I like that he was trying to like manage your disappointment.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 1:20:15Trevor Noah?

  He was like, he was sitting there that night and he's like, oh, my poor parents, they don't understand agriculture. They really are having a tough time with disappointment. Let me, let me, let me, let me make their day. I'm just gonna go and make their day.

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  I don't know why the strawberries didn't grow. Maybe somebody out there can tell me. But um, anyway, it gets him excited, right? To like prepare the food. And then if he helps me in the kitchen, like cook the food. It gets him more excited and he's more willing to try the food in that sense. And I think that that's like a psychology that is obviously true for like all of us, right? If we have more of a investment in the whole preparation process, it can be helpful to us. But, but again, that, there's a lot of barriers to being able to do that. So like there's time barriers and there's obviously money barriers and access barriers. That, that all kind of play into our individual choices.

• 1:21:01Trevor Noah?

  Don't press anything. We've got more. What now? After this. Everybody has that oddly specific thing that they're curious about. Maybe it's restoring old watches. Maybe it's Japanese ceramic making. Maybe it's watching someone explain why one bridge in a remote area of Norway is secretly better than all the other bridges in the world. YouTube always has exactly what you're looking for, even when you didn't know you were looking for it. With YouTube Premium, those deep dives feel even smoother. You get ad-free viewing, but you also get background play when you need your hands free. And you get offline downloads so you can keep watching wherever you happen to be, even if you happen to be off the grid.

• 1:21:47Trevor Noah?

  It's everything you already love about YouTube, just somehow even better. Yeah, one of my favorite YouTube Premium features is Smart Downloads. Because how many times have you gone somewhere and realized, "Ah, I forgot to download anything." And now you're on the way to the airport and you're like, "Download, download, download, download." You're on the plane, "Download, download, download, download." There's no Wi-Fi. "I wish I downloaded." Now, all of those things that you were gonna watch are just on the internet. Smart Downloads basically thinks ahead for you. It automatically downloads recommended videos based on what you like to watch. So even when you forget to prepare, YouTube Premium didn't. I love it. It's like packing for a trip and discovering somebody already remembered the thing you always leave at home. It's always the underwear.

• 1:22:30Trevor Noah?

  If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime.

• 1:22:41Speaker 03

  How do you want to split it?

• 1:22:41Speaker 04

  Actually, dinner's on me.

• 1:22:43Speaker 03

  Okay, big money.

• 1:22:44Speaker 04

  Well, I got a Venmo balance that I can spend with my Venmo debit MasterCard, so.

• 1:22:49Speaker 03

  Well, I Venmo'd you three times last week, so it's kinda on me, actually.

• 1:22:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, you send it, I spend it.

• 1:22:54Speaker 03

  Did my money get reincarnated?

• 1:22:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's chicken shawarma. Want it back?

• 1:22:59Speaker 03

  I can't believe you ate my Venmo.

• 1:23:02Speaker 04

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• 1:23:10Speaker 05

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• 1:23:41Trevor Noah?

  So if somebody is coming to your feed and they they they're looking for the information, what are the things that they should look to you for and what are the things that they shouldn't look to you for? Like when you go like this is like what I I will distinctly help you with it's it's, you know, this is the column.

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I I focus a lot on the systems in our country that that set us up for success for evidence-based recommendations. So if we're trying to like, if we're try, well, first of all, nutrition science, right? So all of the nutrition stuff. But if we're trying to prevent lifestyle related chronic disease, there's many things that go into that. And so there's there's nutrition, there's exercise, there's sleep, and there's stress reduction. And, you know, there's there's accessibility of healthcare access, so you can go to preventive visits. And so looking at, you know, we all make individual choices within a system. And so what are the systems in in this country that either set people up for success or set people up for failure? And what policies

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  have been enacted that have led to these systems versus what could we be enacting that could improve those systems? So I kind of like look like to look at the like whole health system and and public health in general. But so certainly like nutrition science and then looking at holistically, what can we do to prevent chronic disease?

• 1:24:58Trevor Noah?

  If you were giving somebody just like simple tips, like for all of us to go away, like I know now no more half watermelon. This is I've you didn't say it to me, but I felt it. And I appreciate that. Palm of my hand as a shortcut, but obviously understanding it's still within. Okay. But but what are some of the tips that you would give somebody? Let's let's let's break it down, actually, you know, because there's so many different types of people. So let's start with a mom. I say there's a mom out there who goes, you know,

• 1:25:29Trevor Noah?

  I really want to get out there. And I want to make sure that my kid is getting the right food in the right ways. Do I get them a bag of candy? Do I give them a treat? Do I give them chocolate? How bad is this for them? What am I trying to feed them? What are some of the tips that you would give just a mom in that situation? Because they don't want their kid getting cancer or type two diabetes or any of these things?

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so let me let me like step back and just give kind of like a holistic view of what we've been what we've been recommending really for decades. Because I think there's a lot of confusion in nutrition. Because of social media.

• 1:26:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  About like what to eat, what not to eat, what to do. But like in the nutrition science research, like it's been pretty consistent for decades. And so overall, like if you meet these things, you're going to be far and away better than, you know, most people. So making sure that you're getting fruits and vegetables and a variety of these whole foods as much as possible. And again, there's going to be issues in terms of barriers for people, but this is what the evidence shows. So getting a range of fruits and vegetables, getting a range of proteins, a variety of proteins that can be different meats, that can be beans, tofu, like all of these different plant-based and, and animal-based proteins.

• 1:26:39Trevor Noah?

  I'm going to interrupt you in a few places, forgive me, just so, just so I can clarify in some of these.

• 1:26:45Trevor Noah?

  Does it change what packaging those things come in? So if somebody goes, I'm going to get beans, but they canned and I'm going to get tofu, but it's in this packaging and I'm going to get, does it change at all? Or is that still the good foundation to, to go with?

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So those things are going to be, you know, those are going to be on the margins, right? So maybe it'll change a little bit, but like the, the overall, I would much prefer you to eat canned beans than no beans.

• 1:27:11Trevor Noah?

  Okay, got it. Okay, got it.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  So like that's the, it's, this is so much more important in terms of like what you're including versus like, should it be canned or should I prepare it from the bag in a, in an Instapot or whatever it is?

• 1:27:21Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  And then, you know, if, if, because canned beans are incredibly accessible and convenient for people. And so if that's going to get you to eat more beans, which is going to increase your fiber intake, that's what I'm going to go with.

• 1:27:32Trevor Noah?

  Okay, got it.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  I myself use a lot of canned beans because it's so much easier. I just rinse them off. But.

• 1:27:37Trevor Noah?

  Wait, why do you rinse them off?

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  Um, just to rinse like the sodium off because there's a lot of sodium in the can to prevent.

• 1:27:43Trevor Noah?

  There's a trick. See, there's a trick.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:45Trevor Noah?

  Okay, I like that. Okay.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  Calendar and rinse them off.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  I've seen people doing that with Gabanza beans, right?

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:51Speaker 02

  Chickpeas.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. They rinse them off and then they.

• 1:27:54Trevor Noah?

  No, but you see, this is, this is what I mean is like these types of things.

• 1:27:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:58Trevor Noah?

  Because. We live in, and I mean, I don't need to tell you this, but we live in a world where sometimes the tips are given to people in a way that, I love what you just said. It's given to people in a way where they can't access it. So it's like, don't eat the stuff in the can. And they're like, well, you've already excused me because I can't afford the other things. Or it's not convenient, I don't have the time. But I love that little tip that you've included there. Get the canned beans, just rinse them off because the bean is great. It's all the stuff that's around the bean that may be not as good for you.

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, just reducing the sodium content.

• 1:28:27Trevor Noah?

  Okay, cool. All right, so, okay, got it.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  Yep, and that's the same with like frozen, frozen vegetables and frozen fruits. I mean, those are wonderful options and they're more accessible and they'll last longer. And so if that's what can get you to eat more vegetables, like choose the frozen options, right? And actually, sometimes frozen can be more nutrient dense because they flash freeze it. Yeah, than, than fresh. But yeah, so get a variety of fruits and vegetables, get a variety of proteins, make most of your grains, whole grains or a good amount because you're getting more fiber. I mean, all of this is kind of like trying to increase fiber.

• 1:28:57Trevor Noah?

  What is, what is a whole grain? And forgive me, I, I know I'm going to sound like an idiot because I am, but also because I think a lot of people don't know what these things mean. So what is a whole grain?

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  A whole grain just has more fiber in it. So like, it's, it's versus a refined grain.

• 1:29:12Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  So a refined grain will go through like the refined, like.

• 1:29:15Trevor Noah?

  But give me an example of what is, what is a?

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Like white rice versus brown rice, for example. Not that I'm saying not to eat white rice because I myself like white rice. It's just that you want to implement some whole grains. So, so things like whole wheat products instead of refined wheat. So that'd be like a whole wheat bread instead of a white bread.

• 1:29:31Trevor Noah?

  Okay, got it, got it.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  That's kind of the best example. And, and again, that's because it's going to get you more vitamins, more nutrients and more fiber, essentially.

• 1:29:39Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  And then, you know, reduce your intake of low nutrient ultra-processed foods. And, and again, there's variability there, but really when we're thinking about it, and that doesn't mean eliminate your intake, right? It just, right now, 70% of our food environment are these ultra-processed foods. And 70, because again, our, our food, our food environment was really built for corporate profits, not, not necessarily for our health at kind of every stage of the food, food cycle. But decreasing your intake of those and making sure that you're getting adequate fiber, adequate protein, and that's not really too much of an issue for us. And adequate fruits and vegetables. And those things, again, they've been consistent forever, right? Those dietary patterns. And then, you know, in terms of.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  There's there's other things like in terms of exercise, making sure you meet your exercise needs.

• 1:30:27Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:30:27Speaker 01

  But for food, that's kind of like holistically what we're looking at. Now, if I'm working with a mom, that's when it becomes, okay, she has like a time barrier. She has, you know, if she doesn't have an accessibility barrier, then that's great. And so what I would say is start your child really young. Get them eating a variety of foods young so that they they kind of are doing that. And then they might go through kind of like a picky stage and that's okay. Don't be like too nervous about that, but just keep offering, right? Keep offering different things. Make the food fun. There's a lot of like psychology there and some of my colleagues who really work in this like child space are really great at this. And they can like, you know, the broccoli and you can dip it in the ranch and then show that it has snow on it. And then it gets them to eat it more.

• 1:31:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, my mom used to throw carrots at my head and be like, missiles, duck, missiles, duck.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's one way to do it.

• 1:31:14Trevor Noah?

  Move, move, move, move, get down, soldier.

• 1:31:19Trevor Noah?

  I have PTSD, but great eyesight.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  So maybe don't throw baby carrots at somebody's head.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  That recommendation did not come from me.

• 1:31:31Trevor Noah?

  Let's let's not try and get, let's stay in this moment.

• 1:31:39Speaker 02

  You know you love me, Eugene.

• 1:31:41Trevor Noah?

  I do.

• 1:31:41Speaker 02

  You know you love me.

• 1:31:43Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so make the food fun. I actually like that. Make the food fun.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And then just again, variety, like getting your kids variety. And then don't worry too much about like, you know, if you have a strong foundation of food and you're getting all of these foods, there's room for like these snack foods as well. I mean, kids are gonna have these foods when they're at parties and even at your house, there's room for them.

• 1:32:04Trevor Noah?

  There's been a lot of heat around baby food and food formula. And that's like been one of the the main battlegrounds. And I know you you've discussed this. What is your advice around that? Like, you know, to moms who don't know, they go, I I've heard that baby food is bad and I've heard that formula is bad. And I I don't know what to do at this point. What's your advice to them?

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  A lot of it, again, it's a vulnerable population that is easily targeted on social media with viral sensational content, sensationalized content. So I think understanding that and realizing that is like the first thing. Infant formula is safe and it's healthful for babies who need it. There's, you know, lots of, infant formula is actually some of the coolest science. Like, I love infant formula science, because like, how amazing that we've been able to, as best as we can, replicate breast milk, so that like infants can have this food source and survive, whereas they used to not survive before this existed, right? And so I think it's, it's very cool where we've come. And I mean, so, so infant formula

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  is safe and it's healthful for infants. And, you know, I, I'm a proponent of breastfeeding. I breastfed both of my children, and I think that that's wonderful. And I think it's wonderful that there is a safe option for infants who are not breastfed. So yeah, infant formula, you know, some of the biggest things that I see are, like, the fear mongering out there about infant formula are about the sugar source, like, having corn syrup in the infant formula, and then seed oils in the infant formula. And they'll compare them to the EU, and I've done a lot of videos on this, every single infant formula all around the world contains quote unquote "seed oils", and that's because of their polyunsaturated fatty acid content. And so, cow's milk, which is the basis of formula, is a lot lower in

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  polyunsaturated fat than breast milk, than human breast milk.

• 1:33:58Trevor Noah?

  Okay, got it.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  And so what happens is you have to have cow's milk, and then you can add in those polyunsaturated fatty acids with something like a seed oil to more closely mimic breast milk. And so that's why they're used. Again, the science is so cool, like, that they were able to figure that out, and like, yeah, be able to do that, so that they're getting all of their, and this is really important for brain development in infants, right? So they need those polyunsaturated fatty acids. And then corn syrup is the other one, which is a sugar source. And what I would say is-

• 1:34:25Trevor Noah?

  That one's been fixed, though. Trump took the corn syrup out of Coke, and it's healthy now.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's high fructose corn syrup, which is different than corn syrup.

• 1:34:32Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, they're the same. It's all fixed. It's all fixed. It's all fixed now.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  No, so-

• 1:34:39Trevor Noah?

  This was a big thing.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was.

• 1:34:40Trevor Noah?

  This was huge. Like Trump was like, he's like, I'm getting rid of it. No more corn syrup, only sugar, like Mexican Coke, but I don't want Mexicans, just the Coke. I added that last part, he didn't say that, but I think he thought it's.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  And you saw what actually happened, right?

• 1:34:55Trevor Noah?

  What happened? No, what actually happened?

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  What actually happened is Coke used it as a marketing tool and instead of getting rid of the high fructose corn syrup, they just created one more offering that has cane sugar in their panel of offerings.

• 1:35:07Trevor Noah?

  Okay, but is cane, is the cane sugar one healthier for people?

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:35:13Trevor Noah?

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No. I've always heard that high fructose corn syrup Yes. is killing people.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  I know you have, yeah.

• 1:35:21Trevor Noah?

  And cane sugar, because I know what a cane, what a cane thing, like when cane A cane thing! A cane thing, you know? The reason why black people end up in Jamaica is a cane thing! I apologize, sugar cane, sugar cane. Okay, yes, yes. I've seen sugar cane, I've eaten sugar cane, and then I see the sugar cane becoming sugar. I've seen it happen. Yes. The high fructose corn syrup, it doesn't seem to your point readily available. So I'm like, how, how is the high fructose? Actually, it looks processed. Yeah, it sounds. It doesn't, you can't even like make it. Versus squeezing a sugar cane, yes. So how, how's that possible?

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  Okay, so high fructose corn syrup comes from corn, right? That's, it's just sugar from corn. So we use corn to make the sugar, whereas cane sugar comes from a sugar cane, you use that to make the sugar.

• 1:36:02Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Whereas, you know, sugar beet, which is very popular in Europe.

• 1:36:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  Because they grow sugar beet really well, that's what they use to make their sugar, right? So all of these are sources of sugar. So high fructose corn syrup is called high fructose because it's much higher than corn syrup. So corn syrup is 100% glucose. So anything higher than that in terms of fructose level is called high fructose corn syrup.

• 1:36:23Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:36:24Speaker 01

  Let me, let me get a little bit more in the weeds here. So high fructose corn syrup, both, all of these sugars are a combination of glucose and fructose.

• 1:36:32Trevor Noah?

  Okay, got it.

• 1:36:33Speaker 01

  So that glucose and fructose combined, 50%, 50% makes sugar, what we know of as table sugar, right? So that's 50% glucose, 50% fructose. High fructose corn syrup is anywhere from 42% fructose to 55% fructose.

• 1:36:47Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  So they are metabolically, when we look at the data, the same. They're both glucose and fructose. They have no difference in terms of like their metabolic impact on a human level when we're looking at human physiology. They're they're both sugar sources. They're both made up of glucose and fructose, just in a bit of a different varying amount. And the the difference in terms of health is just non-existent in the literature. And so again, and I want to explain why we use high fructose corn syrup in this country, or why a lot of corporations do. Because we live in a capitalist economy where corporations are trying to maximize profit, you know, and not not necessarily to keep you unhealthy. They just don't care if you're unhealthy, right?

• 1:37:28Speaker 02

  Like, they're like, oh, they just don't care.

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:37:32Speaker 02

  They're not coming after you. They don't care about you.

• 1:37:34Speaker 01

  And I think that that's part of like this conspiratorial idea that everyone's trying to keep people sick, but it's actually not. It's just the logical conclusion of the system that we've built, which is to prioritize profit at the expense of everything else, right? If your main value is profit, you're going to do things like buy the cheapest ingredients possible. In the United States, through policy, we have made corn a very cheap commodity crop.

• 1:37:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:37:59Speaker 01

  And and we do that through subsidies for for commodities, and we grow corn really well here. We've also done it by putting quotas on the amount of cane sugar that can come into our country because we're trying to protect our corn farmers. And so we grow a ton of corn here, whereas it's it's the exact opposite in in Europe. They grow a lot of sugar beet there, and they have done things like put quotas up until like 2017, they put quotas on how much high fructose corn syrup could be create could be made there.

• 1:38:24Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  So because of that, manufacturers are going to use the cheaper sugar, right? And so they use a lot of sugar beets or cane, like, sugar over there, whereas we get our sugar sources from corn a lot. And so these manufacturers that are making these ultra-processed foods are trying to get the cheapest sugar product available. And that's if if cane sugar was the cheapest sugar product available, they would choose cane sugar, right? But they choose high fructose corn syrup because it's cheap, because we've made it cheap. And so that's what's in food. And so what the problem is with high fructose corn syrup is we are over-consuming high fructose corn syrup because we're over-consuming sugar. If you overconsume any kind of added sugar, it's a problem. And that's why, you know, the science-based recommendation is to limit added sugars to less than 10% of your overall total calories.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  And over half of the country does not do that. They eat too much sugar.

• 1:39:11Speaker 02

  So there's incentivization to use the product based on where the country is and what they think. There's a, there's a list of ingredients, basic ingredients that uh people always interact with, always have in their homes that they might not be sure if they're good or bad, including myself. So I'm gonna do a quick fire of maybe a few, then you tell me yea or nay and why the yea, right?

• 1:39:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:39:34Speaker 02

  So, salt, is it a yea or nay?

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  You need salt, your body needs salt to survive. It's too much salt that's the problem, which is probably gonna be the, my answer to all of these, but we can see.

• 1:39:45Speaker 02

  So good, good salt is, so now there's a battle between Himalayan salt or just normal salt? Which one is good, which one is bad?

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  That they're, they're neither is, they're, they're both fine.

• 1:39:56Speaker 02

  Marketing.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:57Speaker 02

  Sugar, good or bad?

• 1:40:00Speaker 01

  Again, sugar, I mean, there's sugar in fruit and fruit is a wonderful food, right? So um because you're also getting all of those nutrients. And so sugar is not necessarily bad, it's the overconsumption of sugar that's bad. And particularly like added sugar, like a soda, right? Cause you're just drinking sugar with no nutrients at all. So, so that's kind of what you wanna stay away from or limit um versus just thinking sugar itself is bad.

• 1:40:24Speaker 02

  White sugar or brown sugar, which one is the best?

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  They're the same.

• 1:40:27Speaker 02

  Oh, I always thought brown sugar was way healthy. I thought it was like brown rice. I would eat it all the time and I'd be like, mom, look, I'm being healthy.

• 1:40:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  And then she'd throw carrots at my head.

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  It's not any healthier.

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  Wow. Okay, oil, vegetable oil versus? Beef tallow. Beef tallow, yes.

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  Versus olive oil, maybe?

• 1:40:45Speaker 02

  Versus olive oil, okay.

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um so this one gets a little bit nuanced. There's actually some great data to show um like health benefits of olive oil itself. And, and a lot of that probably comes from it, it's mostly mono and saturated fats. And it also, olive oil usually comes with nutrients as well. So if you're looking at the nutrient composition. Um versus like vegetable oils, like you just mentioned, are, are very refined. So they're not gonna come with any of those nutrients. So if you, if you want like a, an honest answer, just looking at the nutrient profile, olive oil wins in the nutrient profile. But when you look at like what that means from a health perspective for people to consume it, um your overall dietary quality matters much more than the type of oil that you're using. Um and then beef tallow.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  Is a saturated fat and for some people, um, the recommendation would be to limit saturated fats. People who are, you know, at risk for cardiovascular disease, for example. So that one's going to depend a little bit on who you are and what the rest of your dietary makeup looks like. But the best epidemiological evidence we have in nutrition would suggest that you want to limit those saturated fats. Um, and, and use a poly and mono unsaturated fats, which are more like olive oils.

• 1:41:55Trevor Noah?

  This is a shortcut that I've, I heard and I've been using, but I, I would love to know if it was true. When you're talking about the different types of fats, some, I, I read or saw once someone said, the way it looks outside your body is the way it'll turn inside your body. And I, I didn't, it sounded great, so I believed it.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  Um, yeah.

• 1:42:14Trevor Noah?

  No, because what I meant was like, let's say you have a stew or any type of meat that's cooked, you know, like, and the fat will, and if you leave it for a while, you see the fat harden, it rise, but then it's like hardens.

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:24Trevor Noah?

  Right. Whereas like with, like you're saying, olive oil, it doesn't harden at any point. And then I remember reading this thing, but I don't know if that's true or not. Is, is that an approximation for it or is it, is this just like a shortcut that isn't really helping people?

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get where that's coming from because, um, saturated fat is what's hard at room temperature. So, um, and, and, uh, unsaturated fats are not hard at room temperature. So if you think of like bacon, if you're making bacon and then you like pour the grease into a can, it, it, that'll harden once it, once it like cools down and gets to room temperature. And that's because it's a saturated fat. Whereas like a vegetable oil will just sit in your closet and it's obviously oil the whole time.

• 1:42:59Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  So, yeah, um, the idea is, is that saturated fats, uh, have been known to contribute to, um, like atherosclerosis, which is like plaque buildup in your arteries.

• 1:43:10Trevor Noah?

  Yes, okay.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  And so that's probably where that comes from. So there's probably saying like, oh, because it's hard here, it's going to contribute to plaque buildup. And it's an oversimplification for sure.

• 1:43:18Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  But, but it's, it, I understand the rule of thumb.

• 1:43:21Trevor Noah?

  Okay, cool.

• 1:43:22Speaker 02

  And finally, the big one, bread, good or bad?

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  Bread?

• 1:43:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  Well, uh, I mean, I eat bread every day. So, yeah, I love bread.

• 1:43:34Speaker 02

  You.

• 1:43:35Speaker 01

  I mean, look at like France and Italy. I mean, these people eat bread every day. Right? So it's not bread that's bad. It's it's bread, bread. It's overconsumption of ultra-processed carbohydrates and things like that. But bread itself is is a wonderful food source that's eaten all over the world. So it's not necessarily bad. No, I think that bread got a really bad rap like in the United States. I think like in the 90s and 2000s, and then it's kind of like persisted as being some like uniquely bad food. But I wouldn't know, I would not say that it's bad.

• 1:44:07Trevor Noah?

  The milk, milk is is one that always comes up. Which milk is good milk? Which milk is bad milk? Is milk even good? Should we be drinking milk? And then should it be pasteurized or should it only be raw?

• 1:44:21Speaker 01

  Okay, so milk comes from a, we're generally talking about cow's milk.

• 1:44:26Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  Because that's what's most commonly.

• 1:44:27Speaker 02

  Wait.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  There's like goat's milk and things like.

• 1:44:29Trevor Noah?

  I was saying cow milk. I was saying cow milk.

• 1:44:33Speaker 02

  Because you heard how he was interested in baby formula.

• 1:44:35Trevor Noah?

  I was saying cow milk.

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:36Speaker 02

  Okay, sharp.

• 1:44:37Speaker 01

  So cow milk.

• 1:44:38Trevor Noah?

  Cow milk.

• 1:44:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Again, like, good for people is like so subjective and so we and and like we have to like figure out what that means for somebody. But milk is is a very nutrient-dense food for particularly like young kids, right? So so it's often recommended because it's just a way to get them calories and nutrients that are that are great. I will say that I think the dairy industry has really impacted our recommendations of milk.

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  Because it's it doesn't have any unique nutrients that you can't get elsewhere. So it's not like you have to have milk in your diet.

• 1:45:13Trevor Noah?

  For the calcium.

• 1:45:13Speaker 01

  I don't personally drink milk because I just haven't in years. But and I can get all of the other like calcium and vitamin D and riboflavin, all of those nutrients elsewhere. And the protein and fat. But again, it's it's not a bad thing to drink milk. It's it's just a food that you can either drink or not drink and get the nutrients from or not. And it depends what the rest of your diet looks like. In terms of. Pasteurized versus raw, which is, you know, talked about a lot. There's not great evidence that there's, you know, unique benefits to raw milk. I know that a lot of people say that. I haven't seen good data to suggest that. But let's be really clear about what pasteurization is. Pasteurization, because I think people might think it's like adding chemicals to milk. It's just heating milk. It's this wonderful public health advancement that we figured out.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  Louis Pasteur figured out a hundred plus years ago. That if you just heat milk to fifteen degrees or for fifteen, one hundred and sixty-five degrees for fifteen seconds and then rapidly cool it, it will eliminate all of the harmful pathogens that used to get people really sick or kill them. And so it like revolutionized the milk industry because it was like, oh, people can actually drink this without getting hurt now. And so that's what pasteurization is. So it's just, it's just a significant way to reduce foodborne illness and pathogen risk.

• 1:46:28Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:46:29Speaker 01

  So highly recommend pasteurization.

• 1:46:31Trevor Noah?

  Highly recommend, got it. Vitamin K, vitamin K.

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:37Trevor Noah?

  Is it vitamin K? That's like a big thing. Is it silent or is it? Vitamin hay?

• 1:46:44Trevor Noah?

  Sorry. No, no, that was amazing. I'd like to apologize. Those are the moments where I fall in love with you again. I wasn't, I wasn't against you there, I was mesmerized. That's all I was.

• 1:46:57Trevor Noah?

  You see how traumatized I am? Do you see how quickly I apologized? No, really, it was beautiful.

• 1:47:03Trevor Noah?

  Again, that's something that you see in like the Maha movement is like vitamin K, no vitamin K, where do you get it, where do you not? Like, when it comes to those individual vitamins, how should we even think of them?

• 1:47:13Speaker 01

  Are there people saying not to get vitamin K?

• 1:47:15Trevor Noah?

  It's like a, there was a, there's a movement online where they're just like, what is it doing to kids mortality? And Ryan, do you remember?

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Are you thinking of the vitamin K shot?

• 1:47:25Trevor Noah?

  Oh, was it? Yeah, was it? It was a shot. Yes, you're right.

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, because vitamin K is an essential vitamin that we all need. It's a fat soluble vitamin. Um, so I think, yeah, there's some, there, yes, there is, there are some videos about the vitamin K shot. So the vitamin K shot is given to newborns.

• 1:47:38Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  Um, and, and it's to prevent vitamin K deficiency bleeding. And so, um, would newborns don't have adequate vitamin K like we do. So our bodies, our, our microbiomes make a bit of vitamin K and then we get it from our diet as well. Um, and, and what it does is it's, it, it, it's, it plays a essential role in the clotting cascade. So it allows your blood to clot, um, if there's a bleed, so you don't bleed out.

• 1:48:01Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  But infants don't, um, like newborns don't have that ability because we don't, they don't have adequate vitamin K. And so for years and years, I mean, decades, forever, um, you know, there, there was no understanding when an infant would bleed. Um, they, you know, infants would just die and they wouldn't know why. Cause they would have a brain bleed. A lot of them are brain bleeds. And, um, what they found is that it's because they're deficient in vitamin K up until about six months of age. When they can start consuming food themselves, um, like salads and external food. And then, and their microbiome start to, start, start to make it. And so, yeah, for the first six months of life, they're deficient in vitamin K. And so they're at risk for these, this vitamin K deficiency bleeding.

• 1:48:42Speaker 01

  And what was found that if you just give, um, infants a shot of vitamin K at birth, it completely prevents. I mean, pretty much completely prevents vitamin K deficiency bleeding. And so it's given to all babies because we can't, we, there's no way to know which babies would have these bleeds.

• 1:48:56Trevor Noah?

  Got it, got it.

• 1:48:57Speaker 01

  Right? And so in order to prevent that, you give a vitamin K shot to these babies. The, but this, the, I mean, this shot has been given all around the world since the 1960s now. So we have a lot of data to, to look at its safety and it's, um, it's one of, I mean, it's incredibly safe shot, uh, for newborn babies.

• 1:49:14Trevor Noah?

  Supplements is the last thing I'll ask you about because that has just become, I mean, you, you have to, you gotta wake up and are you taking your, your collagen? Are you taking your lion's mane? You're taking your? Why did you give me that look when I said lion's mane? Are you taking?

• 1:49:29Speaker 01

  That was funny.

• 1:49:30Trevor Noah?

  But it's just like, everything has become a supplement. Yeah, your adaptogens and your, and, and it's like, are you not taking them? And this is what, there's free radicals. You, you have to stop or invite the free radicals. I, I never know which one it is, but. There's an industry that's making a lot of money telling people that they're not getting the nutrients or the supplements that they need.

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:53Trevor Noah?

  And ironically, by the way, a lot of the people around RFK sell these supplements. And now he's, yeah, and he's proposing changing a lot of the laws to accommodate their supplements to be sold in places where they weren't allowed or they weren't allowed in the way that they're trying to, whatever it might be, but, but I, I see a lot of people going, oh, I, should, should I be taking these supplements? Should I, should I not be taking these supplements? What, what am I lacking? What am I, what, what's your view on supplements as a nutritionist?

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think supplements are an incredibly profitable area for a lot of people. So, you know, you mentioned that a lot of people like within RFK's realm really sell supplements and, and that's true. I mean, the, the wellness industry is a multi-billion dollars, hundreds of billions of dollars industry. It's this huge massive industry. And what you'll find is a lot of people who are selling supplements will kind of play into this narrative, like you can't trust big pharma and you can't trust traditional medicine because they're out for money. And then they'll turn around and kind of like sell you all of these supplements that are, is also a very profitable for money industry, right? And so it's interesting that like wellness seems to kind of like fly under this radar as this altruistic thing.

• 1:51:04Speaker 01

  When really, I mean, the, the profit that these people, the profit margins are huge on supplements. And so they're, they're making a lot of money by getting you to be like, I don't trust pharma. I don't trust experts. I'm going to only trust like these supplements. And I think it's really important for people to kind of identify that playbook that a lot of people do use.

• 1:51:20Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:20Speaker 01

  Like, don't trust these industries, which by the way, pharmaceutical medications, and there are problems with pharma. Don't get me wrong. We can talk about those, but the pharmaceutical medications are highly regulated by the FDA. They have to go through multi-stage clinical trials to make it to market. And they, and then, and then stage four, they're, they're assessing them when they're in the market. Whereas supplements do not have to go through that rigorous process. Supplements actually have a long history that dates back to, um, heavy lobbying from the supplement industry and politicians that were, were working with the supplement industry. Not allowing the FDA to have that regulatory oversight that they that they wanted to have. And so now supplements don't even have to show that they're effective or safe before coming to market.

• 1:52:06Speaker 01

  And so we see that, I mean, and we we see issues with supplements all the time. There's plenty of issues that and and a lot of liver issues in people as well. And so I think when you're thinking about supplements, I think it's important to understand that it's a very profitable market that people want less regulated than it already is.

• 1:52:23Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Right, whereas whereas and it's oftentimes the same people who are complaining about the regulation of food additives. But then don't don't ever mention the lack of regulation of supplements, dietary supplements. And so I it's important to know that it how profitable it is because that's the incentive for people to constantly tell you that you need these supplements. So I think there's a place for supplements. I'm not saying that all supplements aren't necessary. There's certainly, I mean, there's wonderful supplements like prenatal supplements and and, you know, vitamins and minerals that will directly like directly contribute to removing deficiencies for people.

• 1:53:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:01Speaker 01

  But a lot of the supplements that are coming out that are like flashy and exciting, there's not strong data or evidence to suggest that they're effective effective at all, actually. And so, you know, people can say they'll run like even some companies will do their own clinical trial, right? And that will be like the one trial and it'll be this one study that they say like was super effective. And it's like nobody critiques that, but then like you're critiquing the pharmaceutical industry for running clinical trials. It's just, it doesn't really make any sense. And so, you know, just just being aware of that and being aware that a lot of supplements are just very expensive urine at the end of the day.

• 1:53:37Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 1:53:39Speaker 02

  Ah, Maria, sometimes, you know, I think you're gonna hit it there, then you take it a step further.

• 1:53:43Trevor Noah?

  Wow. That was, I love that. That's a, that's a great way to think of it.

• 1:53:48Speaker 02

  You've been around us for too long.

• 1:53:52Trevor Noah?

  I really, really like that. Okay, so this is, this has been a nice, thank you. This has been a great.

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  We'll end on urine.

• 1:53:58Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, we always end on urine.

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:00Trevor Noah?

  Always. Golden rule, golden rule. Always end.

• 1:54:04Speaker 02

  Always.

• 1:54:05Trevor Noah?

  On urine. Always.

• 1:54:06Speaker 02

  Sometimes.

• 1:54:07Trevor Noah?

  Because, no, you've given us, you've given us like a perfect path to follow here, which is imperfect, which I think makes it perfect. And it's like, the the most important ones for me were if someone's selling you something.

• 1:54:21Trevor Noah?

  And they're telling you about your health, just be a little skeptical, right? Because if they're saying they've got the solution and they're gonna get money from you, be a little bit skeptical.

• 1:54:28Speaker 02

  If they start with fear first?

• 1:54:29Trevor Noah?

  If they start with fear, that's the other one, you know what I mean? They're killing you, you're killing your kids. Are you hugging your children? You're killing them. Be skeptical, alright? Uh, another one that was very important was just try eat the foods, if I heard you correctly, it's like eat the foods the way they look essentially. So it's like the beans are the beans and try and get the bread, the bread that is the least processed and trying, you know, sort of, right? Portion sizes, this was a good one as well. Uh, the sugar is sugar, right? So you're not dodging it, the sugar is sugar. It just has a different accent. There's the European sugar, that was like sugar.

• 1:55:05Speaker 02

  Sugar.

• 1:55:05Trevor Noah?

  And then this one's like sugar.

• 1:55:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:07Trevor Noah?

  You get, but it's all sugar, okay?

• 1:55:09Speaker 02

  And also if an expert is not surrounded by a community of other experts to take questions that they don't.

• 1:55:14Trevor Noah?

  I like that, I like that. If they block you and they don't answer you, then you also know, that's a shortcut, I like that.

• 1:55:20Speaker 02

  This is good, this is really good. Also, when you're growing strawberries in Utah.

• 1:55:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it might not work out for you.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  I would also just say, just to kind of like cap it, the fundamentals of health, um, we have really good, strong data for them and, and they're pretty basic and pretty boring. And so that doesn't play well to social media algorithms.

• 1:55:37Trevor Noah?

  I like that.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  Social media algorithms really prioritize getting you confused and getting you to think there's a lot of like back and forth in the nutrition space or in the health space when, when really the fundamentals are, have been pretty consistent for decades.

• 1:55:51Trevor Noah?

  So we need to start a TikTok page where we do all of these things, but just like advertising like apples and stuff.

• 1:56:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, they should be.

• 1:56:00Trevor Noah?

  We just make it edgy.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  Sure it'll grow.

• 1:56:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, we're just like, we just go and we make edgy claims. Did you know they've been hiding apples from you? Do apples, do you know there's a secret ingredient in apples is good? And we just do this for everything. We could be the change that we wanna see in the world. This is, this is fantastic.

• 1:56:15Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 1:56:16Trevor Noah?

  This has been really wonderful, thank you. Thank you for taking the time with two idiots, because I think there are so many in the world who feel like idiots in this space. And then because of that, they don't get to ask the questions that lead them to the answers. And I think that's what's made you so popular online and now in other spaces as well. So thank you for taking the time with us, I appreciate it.

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:56:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, don't forget to throw carrots at your kid's head. That's another thing we learned from me.

• 1:56:45Trevor Noah?

  This was fun. Thank you so much.

• 1:56:46Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:56:48Speaker 02

  Nice one.

• 1:56:49Trevor Noah?

  I really had a great time.

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  You're good.

• 1:56:50Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:56:51Speaker 02

  This was so much fun.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  You guys are fun.

• 1:56:53Trevor Noah?

  Thank you.

• 1:56:59Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackel. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now.

• 1:57:30Speaker 06

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