Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club

In this episode of Oprah’s Book Club: Presented by Starbucks, Oprah sits down with businesswoman, fashion designer, philanthropist and iconic mother, Tina Knowles, to discuss her empowering new memoir, Matriarch. Tina takes readers inside her enthralling life’s journey spanning multiple generations, revealing intimate moments of tragedy, perseverance, creativity, and the liberation of Black motherhood. In a gratifying and astonishing conversation, Tina details her humble upbringing, her struggles with where she fit in as a Black woman, how she reinvented herself and how she shaped the mega-hit group Destiny’s Child. Tina also recounts her personal journey of mothering her daughters Beyoncé and Solange, the infidelity that impacted her first marriage and how at the age of 70 she finally feels that she is enough. Tina takes questions from the audience as she reflects on the many moments of strength and wisdom she gathered from the matriarchs before her to pass on not just to her family, but the world. For this conversation, Tina and Oprah are joined by a live audience in a Starbucks café in Chicago, enjoying Starbucks® Sunsera Blend™, their smoothest, brightest coffee with notes of citrus and toasted almond. BUY THE BOOK! Matriarch: A Memoir by Tina Knowles is for sale ⁠here⁠ https://amzn.to/4pZq8vn, and the audiobook ⁠here⁠ https://open.spotify.com/show/0bfAko66tSdRL8gpSUT9Qy. Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/@Oprah Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/oprah/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@oprah?lang=en Listen to the full podcast: Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381 #oprahsbookclub

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Everybody, it's Tina Knowles. It's Tina Knowles.

• 0:41Oprah Winfrey?

  The Bee-Have is buzzing in here. Y'all doing it.

• 0:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us on this podcast. Welcome to Oprah's Book Club, presented by Starbucks. We're here in a Starbucks Cafe in my old Chicago neighborhood. I spent so many mornings and nights, 25 years, walking my dogs all around this neighborhood. It feels so good to be back with you all. And I have to say, I love this idea of meeting a friend at your neighborhood Starbucks Cafe to connect over a book and a delicious cup of coffee or tea. I think it's a great way to spend a morning or afternoon. And the pairing for my April's Book Club is the Sunsera Blend. It's a nice, light coffee, a Starbucks Blonde Rose

• 1:30Oprah Winfrey?

  with citrus and toasted almonds. Yummy, yummy, yummy. Toasted almonds in your coffee, don't you love that? And now, I'm just so happy to be here to tell you what my 113th Book Club pick is. It's an intimate and revealing look into an extraordinary American life and family. It is a memoir, and it is a page-turner about legacy. It's about love. It's about loss. It's about perseverance and the wisdom that is passed down through generations, especially from mother to daughter. It's called Matriarch.

• 2:14Oprah Winfrey?

  And we have the matriarch, Miss Tino Noz.

• 2:20Oprah Winfrey?

  First of all, I was saying this to your editor, that this is a beautiful book. Talking about, you can't judge a book by its cover. I think you can. This is pretty good.

• 2:30Speaker 03

  Well, I love this artist. He's an African artist in Lagos. And I've got several paintings from him. And he always puts cherry blossoms behind it. And his paintings remind me of my mom. You know, I grew up in this little raggedy house, but my mom had the most beautiful rose bushes. And she just had this green thumb. And there were flowers everywhere. We always had flower wallpaper. You know, flowers were so representative of her, in her spirit.

• 2:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Well, you know, you are obviously one of the most recognizable and beloved mothers. So it is no surprise to me that this book hit number one on Amazon charts the moment it was announced. Matriarch is the perfect title for your story. Why were you ready to share it now?

• 3:19Speaker 03

  Well, you know, I thought I'd never do a memoir because, as you know, my family is super private, more so than me. But I always felt like I had to protect everybody and not talk about things. And there have been so many narratives about me and my family, so many misconceptions, so many lies, that I decided one day, you know, do I want people to tell my story after I'm gone and create their own narrative? Or should I tell it? So that was very, very important to me that I got the story out myself.

• 3:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, one of the things that I thought you did that was so admirable in Matriarch is that you tell your story, and we are fully engaged in your story. And all the people that are in your life, obviously, your ex-husband, z, and...

• 4:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Ex-husbands and your two very famous daughters. But you also don't expose their lives in a way that it feels invasive to them. You come away with a great sense of how, first of all, you all got to be who you are. And in Matriarch, you tell us about the mothers that came before you. And I want to list them. You are the daughter of Agnes. And the granddaughter of Odilia. The great-granddaughter of Celestine, which was your original name. Who had 10 children by her slave owner.

• 4:52Oprah Winfrey?

  And the great-great-granddaughter of Rosalie, who was also an enslaved woman.

• 5:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 5:00Oprah Winfrey?

  And one of the most sacred things that Maya Angelou had shared in one of her poems called "Grandmother," she says, "I come as one, but I stand as 10,000." And in this book, Matriarch, we get to see how you came as yourself, as this fearless woman, but of all the people, particularly the matriarchs behind you, that allowed you to stand. How were you able to discover so much about the matriarchs in your family?

• 5:30Speaker 03

  Well, just research. I was amazed by their resilience and their ability to still take care of their kids and make sure that they weren't sold or separated from them.

• 5:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, I have to say that the story that your mother and father were from Weeks Island, Louisiana, your father worked in a salt mine, making $9 a week. Your parents' story was so harrowing. I have been, anytime I ask anybody, I would start talking about this book and I would say, "You gotta hear the story about our parents." Can you tell us about? Your father going to the mine that day, and your father and another man, because they were the lowest on the totem pole in the work order, were carrying the dynamite, and there was an explosion. And your father was in the explosion, and the parts of the mine crumpled.

• 6:27Oprah Winfrey?

  And they weren't gonna dig for anybody, and then...

• 6:30Speaker 03

  Well, they just didn't dig for people. They said there was no way that they could survive. And his brothers were like, "We'll do it. You guys don't have to do it." But they put them out. And so they snuck back in after they closed. They blew the whistle at 3:00, and they dug my daddy and the other man out. So they saved them. And instead of being applauded for it, which you would think that they would have been, they were actually arrested and fired and...

• 6:55Oprah Winfrey?

  And told that they had gone against company policy by going back to get your father.

• 7:01Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 7:01Oprah Winfrey?

  And so then, this is what got me. Your father, then a union man comes along and starts talking to your father about, "Well, if you had been a part of the union, that wouldn't have happened to you."

• 7:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 7:12Oprah Winfrey?

  The town owners, the bosses in charge, realize that the union man has been to see your father, and somebody ends up bombing the house.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  Yes. They threw a firebomb.

• 7:25Oprah Winfrey?

  They threw a firebomb in the house, and your parents had to escape.

• 7:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 7:28Oprah Winfrey?

  And that's how your parents ended up in Galveston.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 7:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:32Oprah Winfrey?

  And your father ended up becoming a longshoreman, and your mother was a seamstress.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 7:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. So you're the baby of seven children, and you paint this vivid picture that you said you didn't feel like you were poor, although you all didn't have much. You said you felt like y'all were millionaires.

• 7:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 7:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  Because of all the camaraderie, because my sister had eight kids, and my brother had four, and they all came to our house. So for me, even though we had this really poor, little raggedy house, everybody was at our house. And so I just felt like, how could you feel bad about that? Because we just created our own playground, our own world. And I just never really thought about being poor till, you know, I went to Catholic school, and I was pointed out to me every day how poor we were, and how unworthy we were.

• 8:21Oprah Winfrey?

  You and I are born three weeks apart. I was same age, born three weeks apart. And I was raised in the South, but I got out. My grandmother became ill and I was sent to live with my mother in Milwaukee just before I started school.

• 8:35Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 8:36Oprah Winfrey?

  So as I was reading your story, I was thinking, wow, not being raised in a segregated school is the thing that made all the difference for me. It's the thing that really gave me confidence. Because when I first moved to Milwaukee and I walked into kindergarten and I saw all these little kids reading, learning their ABCs, I was already a reader because my grandmother taught me how to read the Bible.

• 9:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 9:01Oprah Winfrey?

  So I was like, I'm getting myself out of here.

• 9:05Oprah Winfrey?

  You had a very different story. Your story was the Catholic church is across the street from your house and run by black Catholic nuns. And when you go to this school, this is a school that the teachers' kids, the doctors' kids, the people who had, you know, higher paying jobs could afford to send their children to Catholic school. Your mother, who was a seamstress, had y'all dressed like Beyonce every day.

• 9:35Oprah Winfrey?

  You were dressed like Beyonce and your name was Beyonce because that's your maiden name.

• 9:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:39Oprah Winfrey?

  And you go to school as this pretty little curly-cued haired girl and the nun says to you what on the first day?

• 9:48Speaker 03

  Well, you don't belong here. You know, if you only knew. And I was like, what, what does that mean? I had no idea what that means.

• 9:56Oprah Winfrey?

  And you were how old?

• 9:56Speaker 03

  I was five.

• 9:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Can you imagine going to school and the first, and your first teacher says to you, you don't belong here? You don't belong here. Yeah.

• 10:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:09Oprah Winfrey?

  That's a life-defining moment.

• 10:10Speaker 03

  It is.

• 10:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 10:11Speaker 03

  It is. And it was the source of my insecurity my whole life.

• 10:17Speaker 03

  Is not belonging. Or people making up their mind about you before they even know you. And it's still, I'm 71 and it's still making me emotional right now because it was such a, it's just such a horrible, evil thing to say to a kid. Because you're already insecure about everything.

• 10:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 03

  But it made me fight, though.

• 10:37Oprah Winfrey?

  And also, well, it made you a fighter. That's so interesting that it made you a fighter because, you know, when I read that story, I thought, I would have shrunk. It would have made me so insecure because I was raised, like your mother was raised, I was raised to respect authority and if authority said this, then you gotta obey and you gotta, you know, color within the lines and not break the rules. It did the opposite to you. It made you fearless and a fighter.

• 11:04Speaker 03

  It did the opposite to me because also my parents were 44 when they had me. And I realized that after seven kids and all the struggles, they were just tired. So I just had this mouth on me from day one. And they, you know, I remember my aunt used to come over and she would be like, "That teeny, you just need to discipline her because she has no respect." But it wasn't respect. If she said something, I said, "Why?" I questioned her and my parents allowed me just because they were tired. And I had a smart mouth. And I also realized in this book that because my mother was passive

• 11:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 11:43Speaker 03

  to everyone, I used to get so angry at her for being so passive. And, you know, I could tell her that. And my mom would just say, "Oh, be quiet, teeny." And I remember us going to like a young white woman's house and her calling my mom Agnes. They always called her Agnes and she said, "Miss Smith." Miss. And I was just a little kid, but I would be like, "She's younger than you. You shouldn't tell her to call you Miss." And my mom would say, "Teenie, shut up. You just got the biggest mouth."

• 12:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks for listening. We'll be right back with More of my conversation.

• 12:17Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The Four Seasons is back for season two, starring Tina Fey, Will Forte, Coleman Domingo, Marco Calvani, Carrie Kenny Silver, and Erica Henningson. After a difficult year, your favorite group of friends continues their tradition of vacationing together now with a baby in tow. From the Jersey Shore to upstate New York and Italy, their getaways are sure to take unexpected turns where comedy ensues. Watch The Four Seasons, now streaming only on Netflix.

• 12:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Welcome back to More of My Conversation. Several things I thought were defining moments. There is a story where the nun punishes you, and you run across the street to home, thinking your mother is going to stand up for you.

• 13:03Speaker 03

  Protect me, yeah.

• 13:03Oprah Winfrey?

  And instead...

• 13:04Speaker 03

  And instead, my mom says, I said, "I don't like them, and they're really mean, and I don't want to go," because I thought it was optional. And she said, "Oh, you don't have a choice. You have to go back." And she brought me back across the street.

• 13:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, another huge defining moment, I thought, was, and I couldn't believe this, that your mom didn't stand up for you in this moment. Tell us the dress story. So the nuns, the nuns...

• 13:28Speaker 03

  They came to me and said, "Oh, do you have a pretty white dress?"

• 13:31Oprah Winfrey?

  It was going to be for some ceremony. What is it?

• 13:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, every Friday in Catholic school during Lent, they would crown the Blessed Virgin Mary. So you get to wear a little dress, white dress and a mantella like a... You're a bride, and you get to crown the statue. And I thought, "Oh, God, they like me." So I went home, and my mom, it was on a Wednesday, and my mom went and got a remnant, little piece of fabric, and made me this beautiful dress. And then I brought the dress back, and they took the dress from me and gave it to Linda Kennison. Now, I'm 71 years old, but I remember Linda Kennison.

• 14:07Speaker 03

  And, um, and they said-

• 14:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Where is Linda Kinnison today?

• 14:13Speaker 03

  And they're like, uh, her mom passed away and I was very sympathetic, but I was like, I still don't want her to have my dress, which set up a lot of guilt in me, because I was like, you know-

• 14:23Oprah Winfrey?

  No, it set up a lot of guilt, Tina, because the nun said to you, "You're a mean little girl, you don't want to give your dress- You don't want to give your dress to her." So, I mean, I think for the nuns to set you up, to lead you to believe that you're gonna be the little girl that's gonna be a part of that ceremony, you come with the dress, and they say now you have to give the dress to the other person.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 14:43Oprah Winfrey?

  I mean, that is devastating.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  And I felt so guilty, because I was like, I should not be- They were like, "You're selfish, that's, you're just such a mean, vain little girl."

• 14:53Oprah Winfrey?

  And, and, and your mother says, "Give her the dress."

• 14:56Speaker 03

  And I'm like, "I don't want her to have my dress." I mean, I was ready to fight her. And my, I was mad at the little girl, which made me feel bad, because then my mom said, "You got, still got your mom, we can make you a new dress, but she can't make another mom." So it was so confusing and abusive to a little kid.

• 15:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 15:14Speaker 03

  But, the lesson in that, that is so memorable for me, is that the day she wore the dress, I mean, she, she wore the dress and cried on the bus to Virgin Mary, because she was so happy. And it meant so much to me, because I did that. You know, and that's why my mom was so smart, because she said, "You did that, you brought her that joy, by giving her something that was so important to you." So my whole life, if something is really, really dear to me, when I give it away, it means so much more, because it's something that I really valued.

• 15:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  And it's easy to give away stuff that you don't care about, but it's really hard to give away things that you, that you love, so-

• 16:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Especially when you're a little girl.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. But again, I can see where that moment of the nun saying, "You're mean and you're so selfish," would also instill in you this whole, "I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy, I don't belong," which is the first thing that she was trying to tell you. You know what I thought when I was reading, I said, "They knew you were cute." They knew that your mother was a major contributor to the school. And as you say in Matriarch, that your parents were like, your whole family was like indentured servants to that school. Everybody's working and cleaning the yard. And your father's driving for them. And your mother's making every single thing in the church for them. So I think that they were jealous of you. Don't you think that?

• 16:49Oprah Winfrey?

  I think they resented you. They resented you. It was a class thing.

• 16:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was a class thing for sure. Because they felt like their self-worth was tied into teaching a teacher's kids. And they shouldn't have to be bothered with us little poor kids. Like, we just didn't measure up. And so it was a waste of their time. That's what I've got from them all the time, for sure.

• 17:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Let's go to the all-ins. Like we said, you and I are almost exactly the same age. And from the time when children were seen and not heard, but you made sure that you were heard. That's how you got your nickname, Badass Teeny B.

• 17:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:25Oprah Winfrey?

  And you write that God had given my mother the most cautious, you said, "most cautious woman I would ever know, a girl without fear." So where's Tiffany?

• 17:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, and that's what resonated with me as well. My parents, my mom specifically, taught me how to respect my elders and everything. But she also gave me a voice. It's OK to question. It's OK to speak out if something wasn't right. My question to you, Ms. Tina, was what gave you that fearlessness? What inspired you to want to speak out when things weren't right? Not just with yourself, but with people that you love as well?

• 18:04Speaker 03

  Well, I think my fearlessness came from survival. You know, for someone to tell you, "I'm going to break the evil spirit in you," and you're just five, like, I knew that if I didn't stand up to them, that they would just really abuse me.

• 18:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Imagine you were five and a nun, a nun, all nun-like, says to you, "I'm going to break the evil spirit in you." And you're five.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  And vain. They used to always say, and I went home and asked my mom. I was like, "What is vain?" And she said, "It's when you think you're cute." And I was like, "Oh, I'm never going to have anybody think that I think I'm cute." But I would say in my head...

• 18:47Speaker 03

  I would call them the B word in my head because I was a little cluster. And I would just think to myself, no, you not, no, you not, and stand up to them. I was just so stubborn. If you, I mean, if you talk to anyone in my family, they will tell you how stubborn I was.

• 19:03Oprah Winfrey?

  So your mother would tell you family stories under a peccan tree, which you say nourished your soul. And I love that whole section of the book so much. You write, "A part of that was my mother making sure that I knew what an honor it was to be black." You've been known to wear T-shirts that reads 100% black. And you once declared, "I'm the blackest woman you'll ever meet." Yumi in our audience has a question about that.

• 19:29Speaker 06

  Hi, I was just really struck by that line of, "I'm the blackest woman you'll ever meet." And just thought about the, not only the motherhood, but the themes of liberation. In fact, that line of Celestine set herself free and her family free. My mother walked out of a civil war in Liberia and actually resettled in Houston, was a seamstress, sewed all of our clothes. And I just thought about that idea of, you know, when she was teaching you about how your value is tied to your service to others, and you wanted to fight that and talk about liberation. And my question is, what is your advice to black women who are in spaces that are not designed for them or not designed for them to own those spaces? How do you encourage them to own the space

• 20:13Speaker 06

  and to liberate themselves?

• 20:15Speaker 03

  Well, that's a great question. You know, I've always preached to my daughters that you got to knock the doors down and that you should be at home at any space that you choose. And I mean, that was preached to them from the time they were younger because I wasn't given that. I wasn't given that message all the time from my mother. But what I did get from her is that it was an honor to be black, that it was spicier, that it was, you know, it was strong, it was, it was the best, that our music was the best and our cooking was the best, the way we walked, the way we dressed. I mean, my mom loved Dressing. And, and I mean, that's such a, a great thing.

• 21:00Speaker 03

  My daddy and my mama were sharp. They didn't have any money, but they made sure they're sharp. Even if they had to get, you know, Goodwill's. I, I got Goodwill shoes my whole younger life because my mom would say, I'm finding you some Buster Browns.

• 21:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Y'all remember Buster Browns? Anybody old enough to know Buster Browns?

• 21:18Speaker 03

  So I was always taught to be very, very proud of being black.

• 21:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow. And your maiden name is Beyonce.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:28Oprah Winfrey?

  And so when your daughter was born, you decided that you would call her Beyonce because it was a way of passing it on.

• 21:35Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. Because, you know, we didn't have a lot of boys. So I was like, the name is gonna become extinct. So I named her Beyonce. Much to my dad, he, he was like, girl, that, that baby gonna be really mad at you.

• 21:51Speaker 03

  Because you naming her a last name.

• 21:53Oprah Winfrey?

  In Matriarch, you also share what it was like raising your daughters Beyonce and Solange. And you did a beautiful job of letting us know what that was. And I think that what you did so beautifully also was you gave equal billing to both of them. Right? And I know that was important to you, right?

• 22:11Speaker 03

  Yes, it was very important to me to just highlight both of them. Because obviously, you know, when I go on shows or I do anything, people, you know, they, they like to talk about one of my children. And so I have to include all of them. Yeah, that was really, really important. It's, it's a constant thing for me to, to have to fight for.

• 22:30Oprah Winfrey?

  What, what's interesting is though, that you could see from the very beginning, and all of those of you who are mothers, uh, know this is true, that none of the children are alike. They come into the world with their own thing, their own nature. And then there's the nurturing that you all give to them. And from the very beginning, they were so different, you tell us in Matriarch. You all learned early on that when Beyonce was a baby, that she could only be soothed with music. And Solange was the opposite. She would be soothed by reading and other things, but Beyonce only responded to music. And you say that Beyonce loved the freedom

• 23:13Oprah Winfrey?

  of your family dynamic that it gave her. But Solange wanted something more practical and more structured. How did you figure that out?

• 23:24Speaker 03

  Well, it was very obvious from the very beginning because Solange, one of my girlfriends, was very structured, very educated. You know, everything had to be a certain way. Her kids made straight A's. And Solange was very attracted to it. So she was always telling me, "I didn't measure up to Cheryl."

• 23:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 23:44Speaker 03

  In no uncertain terms, you know. And Beyonce loved the freedom of not having a structure. And Beyonce was very much like me because I never enjoyed school. I don't ever have a good memory other than the talent shows or the Black History Program or something that was creative or even home economics where I got to sew and do things. I'm that creative force. And I think for Bea, in her creative space, I think she was very much like me. So I could really relate to her because she could do the work if she wanted to, but she didn't want to. If she could have skipped school, she would have skipped school and just had her music career.

• 24:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, and yeah, there was that one time you skipped school and Solange was very upset. You took the girls to the beach and Solange was very upset because what kind of mother would skip, let us skip school?

• 24:35Speaker 03

  Right. She would say it all the time. She would say it to my friend Cheryl and she would say it to the therapist. And the therapist is like, "You know, Solange needs structure." And I'm like, "God." You know, it's like I wasn't a good mom because I love for them to miss school and hang out with me. And my mama loved for me to miss school. She would say, "Your stomach hurt? Okay, you don't have to go." And so I know that that wasn't the responsible thing. And she reminds me to this day of... You know, she accepts it now, Solange does. But when she went to see the therapist, she was like, "My mama is so irresponsible." You know.

• 25:10Oprah Winfrey?

  I think this is so interesting that you put your daughters in therapy at a very young age, at a time when it was considered taboo, especially in the black community. I remember in 1986, when I started The Oprah Show, everybody was like, "I would never go to a therapist." And going to a therapist makes you crazy.

• 25:32Speaker 03

  Crazy, that's what my family.

• 25:33Oprah Winfrey?

  And one of your siblings told you, "You're gonna make the girls crazy."

• 25:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 25:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Because they're too young.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Something in your instinct said, "The girls needed to go to therapy." Why?

• 25:43Speaker 03

  I got so scared because they were like, super close. Then all of a sudden, Solange was going, taking Beyonce's stuff. And Beyonce was kind of being a little mean to her. And I had never seen it before. It scared me to death because I was like, "I want them to be close and I want them to respect and love each other."

• 26:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Is this after Beyonce started performing?

• 26:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, Beyonce was performing. She was this little local, you know, star. And Solange was coming, doing... She started very early too, but it was like, people would... If they saw the two girls, they would say, "Oh, God." You know, "Oh, she's so talented." And she... And you know how they do. And then my other child is there. And I'm like, "Hey, you better tell her something too."

• 26:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  So I didn't have any problem doing that. But I saw this thing, and I think...

• 26:34Oprah Winfrey?

  You saw the division starting to happen.

• 26:35Speaker 03

  I saw the division. And also, what really shocked me and made me move forward with it was the girls, the group, was at our house all the time. And I just noticed, they started saying, "Sit down, Solange. Shut up, Solange." And Beyonce wasn't defending her. So that mama bear, that defender in me, said, "Uh-uh. You gotta protect your sister."

• 26:54Oprah Winfrey?

  I gotta fix this.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  But she gets on my nerves. She's all in my stuff. So that's why I took them. And it was the best thing I could have ever done for them because they got close again. And Beyonce started respecting Solange. Because, you know, the therapist was saying, "You're gonna make your little sister, you know, feel very insecure."

• 27:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks for listening. We'll be right back.

• 27:16Speaker 07

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• 27:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Welcome back to more of my conversation. Let's talk about the discovery of Beyonce. Can you tell us a story of you and your ex-husband, Matthew, watching her perform for the first time?

• 28:00Speaker 03

  She was seven years old, and she did this parochial, they called it a parochial school talent show up to high school. And I was so scared, because I was like, they're going to ruin her confidence. But she got out there and just turned into the biggest little diva onstage. And she was shy, you know, very shy. That's why we got her into it anyway. And she, we couldn't believe that it was her. And she came off the stage, I mean, she got a standing ovation, and she came off the stage, and she was like, "I'm hungry. I want to just get my trophy and my money and go." And I'm like, "Oh, my God." Because you know that, that old thing about being cocky, or thinking you're cute, or thinking you're all that, kicked in for me.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  So I was like, "You don't know if you won, and you got to be humble." And, you know, but anyway, it was the best thing that could happen to her, because she could turn it off. Like, when she came off the stage, she was just Beyonce, and she's still like that. I mean, she's the furthest thing from a diva that you could be.

• 29:00Oprah Winfrey?

  That's because of the way she was raised.

• 29:02Speaker 03

  But on that stage, she's a diva.

• 29:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, well, and we love it. Listen, I play Cowboy Carter every single morning. My alarm is Texas Hold'em.

• 29:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. This ain't Texas. Okay. I have to say, though, that your ability to see the difference between the daughters and make a distinction, I think, is what has allowed them to be as close as they are now and also to be respectful of it. I loved in the book where you say Solange is art.

• 29:39Speaker 03

  She is art.

• 29:40Oprah Winfrey?

  She's not just an artist, she is art.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 29:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 29:43Speaker 03

  She is because everything is seen through the lens of art. I mean, sometimes it's irritating because I'm like, girl, this ain't art, this is life. But that's how she sees things, as an art piece. And it's different. It's really unique.

• 30:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yes, yeah. Let's talk about Johnny or Uncle Johnny. We know him in Beyonce's song "Heated." We know that so much of the Renaissance was dedicated to him. He was your nephew.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:14Oprah Winfrey?

  But also your best friend. He was your confidant. He was your partner in crime.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  Yes, always.

• 30:21Oprah Winfrey?

  And I thought it was really interesting that for these times, he was so accepted and embraced in the family.

• 30:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:31Oprah Winfrey?

  You say Johnny lived life which is different from just living. And my friend Paulo and his husband, Patrick, are here. Patrick, you have a question about this, right?

• 30:43Speaker 07

  I do, I do. There was actually a line about Johnny that just, I stopped and I had to read it again and I started to cry because you said Johnny was obviously gay by the time he was three years old. And I felt like I already knew the end of the sentence was going to be about how hard and struggle and traumatic it was. I'm from New Iberia, which is right up from Weeks Island. So like I thought of my own experience and how hard it was, the rest, you know, the description would be. But then the second half of the sentence just took me aback because you said, "And I never knew him to hide that light." And you describing his gayness as a light, just, it made me so emotional because it made me think of myself and look back at the little boy I was and the story I have about how

• 31:27Speaker 07

  hard and shameful and you had to hide and suppress. And then I was able to really look at.

• 31:32Speaker 03

  myself and see light there. And it just was amazing. It was an extraordinary act of like unconditional love. And I just wonder if it felt like that to you or if it just felt normal, like that's how your family was, no big deal. It felt so normal to me because Johnny was so special. And I just thought everybody accepted. You know, we just always accepted it. And his mother accepted him and my mother accepted him. He was, you know, her favorite grandchild. And so people respected him because we respected him.

• 32:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, that's such a powerful thing. People respected him because the family respected him.

• 32:13Speaker 03

  The family respected him. And my brothers respected him. My brothers were these macho athletes and my nephews were. But they accepted Johnny. They walked down the street with Johnny and his sharp clothes. And we were proud of him and so everybody else was.

• 32:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Didn't they try to get him one time to play ball, some kind of ball?

• 32:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, they made him play basketball. He didn't like it at all.

• 32:32Oprah Winfrey?

  I haven't knew you two?

• 32:33Speaker 03

  Same. They were gonna macho him up a bit. But just to protect him though, it came from a love of protection for him, not from a we're gonna beat you down type way. And they left him alone after that. And they was like Johnny will make the costumes for basketball, but he doesn't like to play basketball.

• 32:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, we can certainly see where Beyonce's flair for costuming, because when you go to any of the concerts, it's all about the show and the costumes. It's such a big part of the fantasy that she creates onstage that transforms the audience. And you could, I could see from the first story about your mother and then knowing that she, your mother came from seamstress. And you know how to do it and that you were doing all the clothes, all the clothes for Destiny's Child. And the way you were treated in the beginning by the record company doing those clothes, so disrespectful.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  Not only the record company, but when I would go to shoots and people wouldn't talk to me or, you know, because I was country and I had this big hair. And, um, and I never in the early days would.

• 33:51Speaker 03

  Do myself up because I was so busy all the time. And it was also a thing of not wanting to stand out, I think. You know, I've thought about it many times because I don't have a passive personality. But I would let people say things because I think I thought I deserved to be not on their level back then.

• 34:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, you don't belong here.

• 34:14Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 34:15Oprah Winfrey?

  That none thing.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  It keeps resonating in your brain.

• 34:17Oprah Winfrey?

  You don't belong here. And so you were doing the clothes and the record company people are complaining that they're looking too much like the Supremes. You're trying to make them look like Motown. And then that all changed, when?

• 34:32Speaker 03

  Well, it changed later, but it was a fight. The whole thing was a fight for a long time. And then, you know, but people loved the costumes. The people loved the costumes. The fashion magazines didn't love them. The designers didn't love them. They made fun of it all the time. And even to the point where I remember Beyonce went to the Oscars one year. And I did this fabulous gown with like origami. It was black and gold. And everybody was going crazy on the red carpet. And then when she said, finally felt comfortable to say, my mom did the dress. They said that it looked like I got the fabric out the drapes and made it for her.

• 35:12Speaker 03

  Because it was like, you know, and it was so defeating because I was so excited because I was like, finally, they accept it. And, you know, they made fun of it.

• 35:22Oprah Winfrey?

  You know, the other thing that was so interesting is that your ex-husband, Matthew, was able to instill within the girls at a very early age, how to protect their money. And I think that, first of all, I think you were very fair to your ex in this, this book. Because I noticed lots of things you could have said that did not get said in this book. There was a never-ending cycle of him cheating. I mean, from the first sentence that you write about that, shortly after you all got married, I think the sentence was something like, he had a problem with fidelity.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And, Rojne, you have a question about that? I do. I was married six years, divorced for eight, recently remarried. And though there wasn't fidelity in my marriage, the things that existed before I got married with my husband was very much present in my marriage.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  I just didn't see it. So the question is really, when you had the early signs from Matthew, what made you want to commit or move ahead anyways? But then what kept you there? First of all, I hope that I made it very clear in the book that my whole life with Matthew was not filled with heartaches, that there were some amazing moments also.

• 36:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 03

  I also had just lost my mom at 26. He knew my mom, I knew his mom. And what he was, was so kind to my family. My family is everything to me. So imagine you losing your mom at 26. Your brothers and sisters are older, they got their own families, and you feel so alone. And like, that's my best friend. You know, and in a lot of ways, he had an issue, but he was so kind to me. And it sounds crazy, because that's not kind to cheat on somebody. I think he had, you know, he had an illness. But we were a team. And, you know, we had kids and we built a life together. We built businesses together. We connected on so many levels.

• 37:21Speaker 03

  So I don't know, when I look at it now, I can't believe I stayed there for that long. Self-esteem issues, obviously. You know, those nuns telling me I wasn't good enough. So I was like, I'm lucky to have somebody that's successful and smart.

• 37:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you ever?

• 37:34Speaker 03

  And better than me.

• 37:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you ever?

• 37:36Speaker 03

  In some ways, you think that.

• 37:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, did you ever? I was gonna say, did you think it was because you weren't doing enough? That you weren't enough for him? Did you think that?

• 37:47Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, at times, yeah. I think, I think you do go through that when somebody cheats on you. And it also keeps you in a cycle of, it's kind of like somebody slapping you in the face, and then you don't get to recover, and then you get another slap in the face. You can't really get your strength up, you know? And there were times when I did get my strength up. And, but then I would have these kids, and I'd say, you know, I'm gonna be by myself for the rest of my life, because I'm not gonna bring some man around my kids. You know, that was always that fear of protection. And I swear, every time somebody would start messing with me, and he was my protector. He was always a protector. He's still my protector. If something went wrong, I would want him on my team.

• 38:33Oprah Winfrey?

  How would you describe? How is your relationship today? Because you all are grandparents together.

• 38:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're fine. I say in the book that I still love him as a brother. Even though the things he did, I knew that they were out of a illness. They weren't intentional, and that sounds crazy. I know I still sound codependent, but I just know that he would take a bullet for me. And if somebody messed with me, he was right there all the time. He was the person who always told me, you could do anything. You could do anything you put your mind to. You can have whatever you want to have. I mean, he believed in me when, when nobody else did.

• 39:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:14Oprah Winfrey?

  And then you married again when you were 61, I think, went to actor Richard Lawson. And divorced after almost 10 years. And our friend Tyler Perry, in the book you talk about, told you something. What was that? He told you about that?

• 39:26Speaker 03

  Well, just, he just told me that, I told him what happened, and he loves Richard also. And he was like, I'm very sad to hear that. And I said, but, you know, this marriage is not bringing out the best in me. And I have finally found my worth, and I know that I deserve to be happy. I know I deserve to be, for somebody to be happy when they see me and to celebrate me. And it's not doing it for me. It's bringing out the worst in me, and it's got to stop. And he said, I mean, he was teary eyed. He was like, I am so proud of you, coming from a family where women stayed no matter what. And it's taken a lot of courage. I said, I'm doing this for my daughters, too. So I want to set that example for them.

• 40:11Speaker 03

  And he said, you're not only doing it for your daughters, but you're doing it for your grandson. Because you think that you're doing something to stay in a marriage that's unhappy, that you're not celebrated, or you feel fulfilled, you are affecting your grandson, too, because he wants you to be happy, and, and how he's going to treat the woman that comes along. And I never thought about that. But he was just so supportive of me.

• 40:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, you write something that really, I think, helps us to see the kind of woman and matriarch you've been all these years. You say, mothering someone is such an important job. You naturally put yourself on the back burner, wanting to do so well that you end up losing yourself.

• 40:55Oprah Winfrey?

  You say, "I was no doormat, but I was damn sure hard-headed about taking care of everybody except me, and yes, getting the praise for it."

• 41:05Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:05Oprah Winfrey?

  So what was the turning point that you realized enough, that moment where you say to the girls, "Look, I'm gonna start taking care of myself"?

• 41:15Speaker 03

  Well, that was after my divorce. And I was really nervous about it because I had been so engrossed in taking care of them and making sure that they were OK and not feeling worthy of, you know, just loving myself and taking care of myself, or taking a day off. If I was in the middle of something that I really wanted to do and my girls called me, I would drop whatever, whomever, and be right there. And so I felt like I had to have that talk with them to warn them. And I was scared of how they would react because, you know, you guys know, mothers are kind of taken... My kids are wonderful. They acknowledge me. They love me. They would do anything for me. But they do, kids,

• 41:58Speaker 03

  it's a kid's nature to be a little self-centered. But I told them, and surprisingly, they said, "Mom, we so happy to hear that." Because, you know, they were excited for me. They weren't pissed off about it. They were actually excited that I was gonna have my own life.

• 42:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Lyndsay, you have a question? Hi.

• 42:18Speaker 05

  Hi, Oprah and Miss Tina. I met my husband shortly after his first wife passed away. And as someone who's mothering five children, so two biological and three stepchildren, I tend to just doubt myself and constantly feel like I'm not enough of a mother to each of them or my own expectations. And I think that's why I was personally so moved later in the book when your daughters were reassuring you that all your sacrifices had impact and made them who they are. Knowing that and also knowing that you've mothered one of the most successful artists of all time, I'm curious if you still have those feelings of self-doubt or regrets or all the things we could've, should've done? Or do you say, "You know what? I'm truly now at peace"?

• 43:02Speaker 03

  I am truly at peace with myself. I have never felt better about myself in my life.

• 43:09Speaker 03

  There's something about turning 70 that all of my mistakes and things, the shame that I had about a lot of things, I tell them all the time, and I don't know if I could say this, but I don't give a shit.

• 43:25Speaker 03

  Anymore about what somebody thinks of me, what they say about me. I'm just protective of my kids. So I don't want to ever do anything to embarrass them or make them feel bad. But other than that, what you say about me kind of rolls off my back. Because I feel good about me. I feel good about taking the time for myself to look nice and to dress nice and to take care of me. I don't have any guilt or shame about it. So I feel really good about it. And I know that I made a lot of mistakes. And I think if I had anything that I would do over again, it would be that I would have left the marriage way earlier. Because I still feel that I didn't set the greatest example in that way for them.

• 44:08Speaker 03

  I think you've done a pretty darn good job.

• 44:12Oprah Winfrey?

  So you now have six grandchildren.

• 44:14Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 44:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Beyonce's Blue, twins Rumi and Sir, Solange's Jules, and Kelly's Titan and Noah.

• 44:22Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 44:22Oprah Winfrey?

  And Clotilde, I hear you have a question.

• 44:25Speaker 05

  Thank you, yes. So in the book, you mentioned that the nun in Holy Rosary stated that you weren't, you know, good enough, basically, right? And there were moments of not belonging throughout the book. But you said, "I belong anywhere I want to be." So how has those words played a role in your success? And how have you been able to pass that on to your children and your grandchildren?

• 44:46Speaker 03

  It's funny, because my girls will say, "Mama, you don't always have to have your dukes up." You know, Beyonce tells me that all the time. But I think I had to fight for space. But I think, I don't know if it was the nuns telling me I didn't belong, that I fought to belong in the spaces that I've been in. And I taught them from day one that they deserved to be anywhere that they wanted to be. And that's, again, people will not always welcome you, but you've got to welcome yourself.

• 45:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. You say that you've been asked many times, what is the proudest moment you've had with your daughters? And what is your answer?

• 45:25Speaker 03

  Oh, God. The proudest moments are when they do something that's not about entertainment, but when they do a charitable thing and they are good people, just regular good people and have good hearts. That sounds corny and it sounds like a cliche, but it's really the truth. I just get so full and so proud when they respect people and they do charity or they do, you know, something that's a normal thing.

• 45:57Oprah Winfrey?

  You've got to have been proud. Listen.

• 46:02Oprah Winfrey?

  When it was announced that Beyonce

• 46:08Oprah Winfrey?

  won the album after all this time, after all this time, I was like, because I was just sitting there like, okay.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  I know, me too.

• 46:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Who's it gonna be? And I almost peed on myself when it happened. I was just like, oh, my God. It did happen. It happened. So that had to be, it had to feel like finally.

• 46:31Speaker 03

  But you know what? It was more so than pride. I felt like it was fair. That was my happiness. I just felt like they gave her a fair shot. For the real, you know, she's won a lot of Grammys, but sometimes I felt like some of those were consolation prizes. And so for me, I don't know if I was so much proud as I was happy for her.

• 47:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Like finally?

• 47:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, finally.

• 47:04Oprah Winfrey?

  You got the recognition you deserved.

• 47:05Speaker 03

  You got the recognition you deserved, you know?

• 47:08Oprah Winfrey?

  For an album that was so out of the box.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Speaker 03

  And that came from a place of pride for her because when she went to that award show, you know, she was not treated well. And it was very much me back at Holy Rose where somebody said, you don't belong here. And, you know, you're not good enough. And that was like saying...

• 47:38Speaker 03

  I took my seat at the table, whether you like it or not. And I deserved to be here. I deserved to be anywhere I want to be.

• 47:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Want to be.

• 47:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 47:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Anywhere you want to be. You tell the story of, I think it was the first album, and you all walk into the listening session, and there are all these guys around, and they're saying, there's not one single hit

• 47:59Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:59Oprah Winfrey?

  on this album. And it turns out, yeah, there wasn't one single Beyonce. There was five. There was five hits.

• 48:06Speaker 03

  That's the best feeling.

• 48:07Oprah Winfrey?

  But that, that, that condescension, that still doubting, that still lack of respect that you all were getting when she was Beyonce.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  I wondered about that, why, why? But they really set us up. And if I wasn't badass Teenie B, who produced badass Beyonce, we would have said, okay, we better go back to the drawing board. But that just made us want to fight. And it challenged her to go and get Jay on the record, which is great. But the sad part is it came, because she said, they wouldn't do this to Jay. They wouldn't tell him this, but they telling me this.

• 48:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and so from the beginning, you saw this relationship between Jay and her blossoming.

• 48:47Speaker 03

  Not from the beginning, because they talked for like a year on the phone. And I was like, oh, God, I don't ever remember talking to somebody for a year on the phone. Like, this is moving really slow.

• 49:01Speaker 03

  And so it took them a year to really get together. When she went to do, you know, the movie in L.A. was, I think, the first time that they, he had been to our house for dinner. And, you know, but they weren't dating then, and they weren't talking like that. So, yeah, it took a long, I mean, they moved pretty slow.

• 49:19Oprah Winfrey?

  As matriarch, having passed on your love and wisdom and nurturing now to your daughters, what kind of matriarchs are they?

• 49:33Speaker 03

  That is, um, I can't believe how good of a mother they are. All of them. They're just really good mothers that are natural and that they love their kids and they put their kids first. And I'm getting emotional because I feel like I passed that on because my kids were always my priority. Because I did a lot of screwing up when I was younger and I was, you know, a little bit rebellious and, you know, I went through the thing with being mad at my mom and and so all the things that she didn't give me, I decided I was gonna give it to them and

• 50:11Oprah Winfrey?

  But now you understand, I mean, we understand

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:14Oprah Winfrey?

  why you were mad at your mom. That moment you overheard that conversation where you'd been taken to the hospital, you overheard your mom say, after you were examined, was she pregnant or is she pregnant?

• 50:24Speaker 03

  It was the most hurtful thing ever because I wasn't thinking about screwing then because I was really focused on getting out of that town. I don't know if I'm saying the wrong thing, but I'm just saying, like, I wasn't, and so it was a very painful thing for me.

• 50:39Oprah Winfrey?

  So what it said to you is your mom didn't trust you?

• 50:41Speaker 03

  She didn't trust me.

• 50:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 50:43Speaker 03

  But my mom told me eventually, it wasn't you that I didn't trust. I didn't trust the world with you.

• 50:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And that's what I thought about your mom. I thought, yes, she was passive, but she also was fearful as all black moms needed to be because look at what happened to your brother.

• 50:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:59Oprah Winfrey?

  The whole family was traumatized for years in that town. Your brother beaten and the family harassed and you arrested and all that. And so your mother had reason to fear.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  And just think about how could she be so brave?

• 51:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Black southern moms would fear every time your child is out of the house.

• 51:18Speaker 03

  And I'm fearful every time my grandson is out of the house. You know, I'm like, you know, make sure you do this. I mean, we as black women have to teach our sons and our grandsons and our granddaughters because my mom was always saying, you got the biggest mouth and you don't know how to control your temper and you're so smart mouth. If somebody stops you, just shut up. Just shut up and make it home. And that's a shame that we have to tell our kids to shut up and make it home.

• 51:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, I want to end with this beautiful passage in the memoir. Would you read it?

• 51:51Speaker 03

  "I am 70, and I just learned that I am enough. I wish I would have realized this at 40 or 50, maybe even younger. But that is why I am telling you. I have tried to collect as much of that wisdom as I can to pass on here. This precious time of gathering memories is closing. It's not an end, I know, but my new beginning."

• 52:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 52:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Liberation. Liberation time. I'm telling you all, you're gonna love this memoir. It's gonna open up you to thinking about the matriarchs in your own life. You did such a great job. Congratulations to you and to your editor and all the people who made this possible, who decided, "Look at you, O'Neal, O'Neal." I don't know if he's thinking too, but you are thinking really cute. "Matriarch" is available wherever books are sold. And Ms. Tina also reads the audio version of this book. Thank you so much.