Extra: Full Interviews With Jimmy Garoppolo, Joe Staley, Mike McGlinchey, and Kyle Juszczyk

Stephen Dubner’s conversations with members of the San Francisco 49ers offense, recorded for Freakonomics Radio episode No. 350, part of the “Hidden Side of Sports” series.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:43Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:54Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey there, I'm Stephen Dubner, and this is a Freakonomics Radio Extra, our full, lightly edited interviews with four members of the San Francisco 49ers' offense: quarterback Jimmy Garoppolo, offensive lineman Joe Staley and Mike McGlinchey, and fullback Kyle Juszczyk. We interviewed them for our episode number 350, which tells the story of the 49ers' attempt to reverse their fortunes after a few dreadful years. It's part of our special series called "The Hidden Side of Sports." This is one of several interviews with 49ers executives, players, and other football personnel that you can hear in their entirety exclusively, right here on Stitcher Premium. This interview, like the others, took place in May during the team's first couple days

• 3:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  of preseason practice, or what are called OTAs, Organized Team Activities. We'll start with Jimmy Garoppolo, the quarterback who joined the team midseason last year as they were on their way to losing their first nine games, and who took over and helped the Niners win their last five games, and was duly rewarded with a five-year, $137.5 million contract. Hope you enjoy.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Nice to meet you.

• 3:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, Stephen Dubner. Nice to meet you.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Nice to meet you guys.

• 3:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, congrats on everything.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 3:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, you're welcome. It's exciting.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  How's it going?

• 3:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, our day's going great. Yeah, really fun. How's yours?

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Uh, busy.

• 4:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  It's good. First practice.

• 4:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Was first OTA significantly different from everything else you've been doing here?

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Um, it was just exciting to get back out there, really.

• 4:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Being a quarterback, you know, running and lifting, it's important, but uh, the practice is, you know, it's awesome getting out there with the guys and everything.

• 4:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  I bet. Yeah. What would you spend your offseason doing mostly? Conditioning, et cetera?

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, just your normal working out.

• 4:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Were you here?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Uh, I was here initially, went to Chicago for a little bit. Um.

• 4:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  For home, going.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had to see the family and everything.

• 4:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  And then, uh, we got the deal figured out, got to, got out to LA and that's kind of where I do most of my training at.

• 4:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Gotcha, gotcha. All right. Um, so you have about 15 minutes, sweet here, is that right?

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Or more, three hours, whatever. We'll take it. Whatever we got, we'll take it. Um, if we'll begin, just say, I'm Jimmy Garoppolo and you're listening to Freakonomics Radio.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  What's up, guys? I'm Jimmy Garoppolo and you're listening to Freakonomics Radio.

• 4:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. So, last year was a wildly unpredictable and dramatic and successful year for you. Can you just walk us through it quickly from your perspective, starting in New England, coming here mid-season and how it ended?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, you know, it was very unique. I don't, I mean, I clearly have never been in that situation, but it was, uh, you know, exciting at the same time. Just, I went, took a nap, woke up, uh, just about a hundred text messages, a hundred missed calls and, uh, you know, next thing I knew, that next morning, 5:00 AM, I think, I was on a flight out west to San Francisco. So, it, uh, it just happened so quickly and suddenly.

• 5:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's really the way it works.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was three days, four days before my birthday and it was a whole bunch of stuff going on, but, uh, you know, you go through so many emotions initially because you, you don't know what's going on. I've never been in this situation before and so, uh, your emotions are going wild and then you get here and now you're learning a whole new playbook. It's like learning a new language, you're meeting new people, you don't know anyone's name. So, there was a bunch of stuff going on, but, you know, things really worked out well. Uh, after a week or two, things started to slow down and you're getting kind of a routine and, you know, it worked out well.

• 6:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  The first call wasn't from your agent? It was like, it was in the press before you actually knew that the deal? No, 50 of those calls were from my agent.

• 6:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  How long was your nap?

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Well, it wasn't that long, I swear. But next thing I knew, I was a 49er and, you know, the rest is history.

• 6:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you nap every day?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  No, I rarely nap.

• 6:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  That was rare. You'll never do that again.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Definitely not during the season.

• 6:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Alright, so, yeah, so just talk about, did you have any inkling that you might be traded? First of all, I mean, I know teams have been talking about you, right?

• 6:36Speaker 01

  There was rumors and everything, but, you know, during the season, especially as a quarterback, you're so locked in, there's so many things that you have to worry about for the next Sunday that I really didn't have time to really think about that. My agents would keep me notified, but they know for the most part I'm all football during the season, so, you know, there was rumors and everything. I didn't really, you know, know whether to believe it, because, I mean, some of the stuff is hearsay and it turned out to be true.

• 7:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Would you think and know about San Francisco, the organization, the history coming in?

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Very rich history, you know, Joe Montana, Steve Young, those guys just, you know, paving the way and, you know, they went through a little bit of a downstream there, you know, for a couple of years, but just the fans around here are pretty unique. It's, I didn't know that, I'd never been out here before getting traded, so when I first got out here though, the fans, the faithful, I mean, they really are faithful through the thick and thin, it's impressive.

• 7:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Alright, so of all the weird and wonderful things about the way it worked last year, to me, the weirdest is that your agent, you, you share an agent with the guy that you were backing up, and then we know the drama of, the drama of...

• 7:47Speaker 01

  What drama?

• 7:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know, you can tell me as much as you want, I only know what I've read, half of which is probably true, but I don't know what your relationship like, was like with Brady. I'm happy to hear you say anything you want to say, if you want to take a pass on it, take a pass, but let's start with that.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, nothing that the media made it out to seem. We, we always had a good relationship, you know, initially when I was younger, kind of like an older brother type of relationship, but as I got older and, you know, matured through the NFL, we became closer and we became good friends, you know, we still text here and there. Jacoby was a good friend of mine too, so the three of us always, you know, we're texting each other. And it was, uh, you know, everyone said it was a terrible decision to have the same agent, but uh, I think it worked out very well.

• 8:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  He, they uh, you know, our agents look out for both of us, both of our best interests. But uh, you know, it's, at, at the end of the day, it's the NFL, so it's a business.

• 8:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. We also read that um, that Kraft want, made it happen or wanted it to happen and that Belichick was against it. Um, tell me what you can about that.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Uh, not my, I, I didn't know.

• 8:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you hear from Belichick after?

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was, he was the one who actually told me that, I mean, my agents told me initially, but then uh, Coach Belichick right behind them told me and uh, we always had a good relationship, you know, very uh, both of us are very straightforward people, really no BS or anything. So I always appreciated that from Coach. He uh, he kept it real with everybody, whoever you were, practice squad or, or the starting quarterback, you know, and uh, you gotta respect him for that.

• 9:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  So everything I've read and heard about you coming in, you know, we know the kind of details. We know that um, that Shanahan originally said, let's give him time to get up to speed. You may not even see him play this year. Then of course you do come in relatively soon. And as far as I can tell, you've never actually lost an NFL game that you've started, right? You won two?

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Done pretty good.

• 9:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Two with the Pats, right?

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 9:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Uh, great. Um, um, but um, from everything that we've heard from everyone on the exec side and on the player's side, you're some combination of like YA Tittle and Superman and Jesus Christ? Like people just gather around you and love you?

• 9:52Speaker 01

  It's a hell of a combo, right?

• 9:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's a pretty good combo. Um, so tell us, I'm sure you can't be that good. Um, what are some things that you work hard on, that you struggle with, that you're trying to get better at?

• 10:03Speaker 01

  As far as football or life?

• 10:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Football and also being part of, I mean, it's a huge thing. You came in, you won five games in a row that you started and then you're given what was at the time, the biggest contract ever in football got, got surpassed, but it's still pretty big. So it's natural for both the team and the fans and maybe even in the league to look at you as a kind of savior. That's a lot. So I'm just curious how you process that or you mostly ignore it?

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, for the most part, I just go out and do my thing. Uh, you know, everyone sets high expectations and tries to predict things, but at the end of the day, no one really knows anything or what's gonna happen. And I set a higher standard for myself than anyone ever will, so. I kind of worry about that more than anything. You know, all the outside noises is it's just noise. So you really got to stay focused on, uh, you know, your, your craft and all the things that we have going on in this building. It's, uh, you know, if you get caught up in all that stuff, you're going to have a tough time. The NFL is hard enough as it is.

• 10:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Um, Kyle Shanahan knew you pretty well. He'd worked you out when he was with the, um, with Cleveland, right? For the draft. So just tell me about that relationship going back and what it's like now.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, we had a good relationship. I met with Cleveland a bunch. They were looking for a quarterback that year. Uh, and they ended up taking Manziel.

• 11:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. Trading up to take him, right?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Did they?

• 11:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, that's what I read, but then I thought, when did Cleveland ever have to trade up to get the 22nd pick? No, seriously. Well, I am a Steelers fan, but still. That's probably like their. Maybe that was. Their fourth first. Yeah, I was, maybe that was their fourth, sorry. So anyway. No, we'll move on from that. Um, but anyway, so he'd worked you out a couple of times. Yeah.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  We had, we had a good relationship from the, really from the start. I mean, he worked me out at Northwestern, I remember. And, uh, you know, he was a young, energetic coach and we were, uh, very similar personalities. And I can remember going home and telling my parents that and, you know, I didn't know where I was going to go or who was going to draft me. But just, uh, you meet coaches throughout the process that you get along with better than others. And me and Kyle had a good connection right off the bat.

• 11:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  So again, if you don't know football, um, and you read about the kind of offensive mind he has and that he just tortures defenses by being dynamic and creative, et cetera, et cetera. Can you just talk for a minute about what that means for you as a quarterback and how that fits for you?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  It's, uh, I always use complex as the word. It's a very complex offense. Just, um.

• 12:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  So give me a call, a call a play for us here, for instance, and tell me what each term means.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Each term? Oh gee, we'll be here for a while.

• 12:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Really?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Uh, so like you could go on. Go north, right clamp, uh, three jet, uh, YCO bow.

• 12:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's one play.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  That's a shorter one. And so it's a, you know, it tells everyone what to do. Um, but at the same time, you could get into different packages where it's one word tells all eleven guys what to do.

• 12:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  And it's just, that's the complexity of the offense. And now you got motion moving around, the defense is looking at a hundred different things. You snap it all of a sudden and, and they're messed up and it makes my job that much easier just by, you know, a simple little thing that we did before the ball was even snapped. And that goes back to the films, the coaches film study and all that. And it, uh, it gives me a lot of confidence and the whole offense as a whole, just you go into that game and, and you know, the coaches have done their, their studying and done their homework. And it's just, uh, it's nice having a game plan like that.

• 13:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Let's assume you turn out to have a really long and great Hall of Fame career, right? Uh, and if you were to look back on like this time now, you're, you're beginning with your, you know, as your starting career, um, what would you attribute it to? Cause there are a lot of guys who physically I'm sure are like you or close to you and so on. So what do you think actually makes you successful at this level?

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Uh, I've always, you know, relied on the extra work. Uh, the day ends at two o'clock, say you try to be here till eight o'clock.

• 13:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  You're what?

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Uh, anything and everything.

• 13:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's a, I mean, one day it could be more physical than mental. You had a hard day or something like that. Now it's more mental than physical.

• 14:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  It just, uh, everyone has their own routine and you know, being in the NFL for four years now, going on five, I have a pretty good routine that I've gotten used to. And you know, during the season, it's a, it's a long, tough season. So you have to have a good routine that keeps your body healthy and keeps your mind sharp for all sixteen weeks.

• 14:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  What are some things you do physically that like, uh, a layperson could do to keep their body in, a, a regular person, not a, not a studly athlete?

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I do things for quarterbacking. So it's different than your average athlete. Uh, you know, I, I have to stay loose, um, be able to throw hundred, two hundred balls a day, every day. And, um, you know, if you lift a ton of weights and get real

• 14:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  big, it's, it's tough to do all that. So it's, um, a little different than, than normal stuff.

• 14:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's your diet like?

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Uh, good.

• 14:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  You cook, you cook for yourself or no?

• 14:54Speaker 01

  No, they make phenomenal food here.

• 14:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is that why, is that why you're here, uh, like eighteen days a day?

• 14:59Speaker 01

  It doesn't hurt for sure.

• 15:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Um, what do your folks do for a living?

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Uh, my dad was an electrician. He just retired. Three, four months ago, something like that.

• 15:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  And my mom was a kind of a cook chef, I guess you could say.

• 15:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  And she's looking to retire pretty soon too.

• 15:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Are they gonna move out here now that you're here?

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't think so.

• 15:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  You have, you have other siblings?

• 15:19Speaker 01

  I have three brothers.

• 15:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Uh, two of which are moving out here.

• 15:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, wow.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  And then the third is an architect in Chicago, so he's, uh, he's killing it right now. It's, it's awesome. And then, but my parents, you know, they, uh, I don't know, we're a very tight-knit family and they like, you know, I don't know, they're, they're locked in it back in Chicago, so it'll be tough to get them out of there.

• 15:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  I see.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  They'll be out here every week, though.

• 15:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is that right?

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Um, tell me, um, you, you may not think about it yet, um, since you're young, but, um, a lot of guys come into the league with all kinds of, you know, promise and even success. And then afterwards, it can be a really hard adjustment because you've been doing this one thing since you were six, eight, 10 years old and kind of had people taking care of things. Can you just talk about what you think about the afterlife of an athlete? Again, I realize it's not the right, it's not the right phase in your life to ask you this question, but I'm just curious, uh, your thoughts. People you've seen do it really well and not well, maybe?

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it seems like, you know, I have no idea for myself. That's hopefully a long ways away, but, uh, it seems like coaching is a way that a lot of guys go. I have a bunch of guys that I went to school with, uh, at Eastern that, you know, they get into coaching because they miss that, that atmosphere, that family, uh, feeling. And so, you know, every one of them that I've talked to is, they love it and they say you get just as, as much joy out of that as you do playing. So, uh, I don't know, hopefully that I got a long, long time until I even have to start thinking about that.

• 16:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you have a prediction, um, for this season, either in terms of number of wins or how deep you get into the playoffs? Do, do you have any idea in your mind, whether you want to tell me or not, of like, what would constitute a successful season for you?

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 17:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Or how would you describe it?

• 17:04Speaker 01

  I mean, there's a million things that go into that.

• 17:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Like, what would, like, at the end of the season, if there, like, name three or four things that would need to happen for you to consider this a successful season?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Um, I think we have to have a good OTAs first.

• 17:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you're talking about a successful season. We've had one practice, so.

• 17:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  We've got a long way to go. Then we'll get into training camp, and that's really where your team starts to come together, and you start to see the mold of the team. And, you know, we're just trying to create a good team right now, a good standard that we set for each other, and I think we're moving in the right direction on that.

• 17:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Everything I've read from every player says that you're like, you know, the natural leader, that people gravitate toward you in the locker room and on the field. Is that something you learned to do? Is it your natural way of being? I'm curious about that.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I think, you know, I've never really tried to fake it, or, you know, be a, I don't know, someone that I'm not, because, you know, everyone says this guy's a great leader, and you should be like him. But I think if you start, you know, going out of your comfort zone and doing things you're not used to, guys, I mean, especially in NFL locker room, they see right through that. They're not, they're not dumb. So, you just have to be yourself. Uh, I don't know. I've always thought of myself as one of the guys, and I think that plays a big part in it. Where are you in the, in the four brothers?

• 18:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Like, age-wise?

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Uh, number three. Okay, so when you're older brothers, are you still in a, in a leadership role, or are you like a little brother that gets? Yeah, I got two older brothers. Is that right? They'll never let you forget it. That's just, and I'd be upset if they did, you know, it's, uh, I don't know, it's just how we were raised. I'm sure it's maybe a better person having them around, you know, keep me humble and everything.

• 18:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, uh, thank you. Good luck.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  No problem.

• 18:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hope you win a bunch of games, win a Super Bowl.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. The only thing is, again, here, I do have one issue is that, as a Steelers fan, I can't let any team get more Super Bowl trophies than us, and you're one of the few that are.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, you can get a one or two, but we have to keep, so if we can toggle between Niners and Steelers, that's fine.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, see how many big bets you got?

• 18:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  There you go, yeah, I don't know. Okay, good luck to you. Thank you very much.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, no problem.

• 19:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Next up, our interview with one of the larger and more colorful members of the San Francisco 49ers.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  My name is Joe Staley. I am the left tackle for the San Francisco 49ers. I have been on the team for, this will be my 12th season coming up. So, only played here in San Francisco.

• 19:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. And you're easily the longest tenured veteran here, EBI Longchamp.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  And the best looking, yes.

• 19:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Best looking, yeah. Your nose, I have to say, is...

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Leans right.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  It leans to the right.

• 19:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's been broken a couple of times.

• 19:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  A bunch of times.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  You can do that with the face masks?

• 19:50Speaker 02

  So, yeah, so this funny story. We were in Green Bay and I had this old school helmet from like, you know, 1984.

• 19:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is it legal?

• 19:58Speaker 02

  It's in the last year of being legal. I was kind of grandfathered in. I'm actually switching face masks this year. But in 2000, I think it was 12, they tried to get me to switch face masks. And so I was trying out this new helmet. And very first game, we're playing the Green Bay Packers, I'm going against Clay Matthews. And he's a big time bull rusher, you know, kind of just like runs down your face. And my helmet was not fitting properly because it was a new helmet and I have kind of a weird shaped head. And it was just slamming my nose over and over. And there's a bunch of pictures. I mean, the thing was broken and like all the skin from the top, I still got the scar up there, was like flapped open over the bridge of my nose. It was a miserable game. So that was broken.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Then I got broken. We did a one-on-one pass rush back in college with no helmets for some reason. And I caught a spin move, heavy elbow to the nose. Nose was completely like on the side of my face. Trainer came over and was like, "Oh, you're good." I was like, "All right. Seems pretty official."

• 21:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  It looks good now, though.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  You've grown into it.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Grown into it. I got that big head.

• 21:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how big are you now?

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Six foot six. I'm about 295, 300 pounds.

• 21:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  So when you started, you thought you needed to be heavier?

• 21:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I came in the NFL, was pretty light, out of college.

• 21:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did someone advise you to get heavier? Or you just thought that was the way to go?

• 21:22Speaker 02

  When I came out, I came out in 2007, it was kind of going through a transition between like offensive linemen being big bruising like type players. And I was very much on the, you know, light spectrum of that scale of what guys were supposed to weigh when they came to the NFL. And so I just continued to gain weight like I was in college and kind of stopped. I was about 235 or 335 pounds at one point. Three hundred and thirty pounds and uh.

• 21:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Was that.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Was way too big. Yeah, felt miserable, couldn't move, basically was losing everything that put me into the NFL.

• 21:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Was my like athleticism and my foot speed. So uh. One off season, this was like, ah, screw this. I'm gonna try to try it the other way.

• 22:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 04

  What do you have to do to put on that much weight?

• 22:07Speaker 02

  I mean, I was just eating everything. So I mean, I was a tight end. When I got to college, I was about two hundred and twenty pounds and uh. New coaching staff came in. Brian Kelly is not in Notre Dame. Um, he came in and said, you know, we don't have. Tight ends in my in my offense, so I want you to play tackle. Just gain as much weight as you can. So I was just eating everything. He's like, I don't care what you eat. Healthy or not, I was a man on a college meal plan, basically, and also had, you know, a couple bucks to go get a burger, you know, five dollar pizza. Little Caesar's. And so I was stuffing my face and then also I was working out pretty heavily. Um, I would do two workouts a day. Pretty consistently in the off season and then working on every day on top of practices. And also you're young in college, so you're.

• 22:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. You'd never played lineman before that, though?

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 22:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  I got taught the position.

• 22:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how'd you like it when you started?

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Um, hated it, hated it at first. No, it was just different, you know, and I wasn't really a, I wasn't a blocking tight end either. I was brought there to. Catch passes. I was fast.

• 23:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  For my size, so uh, it was a transition for me. I didn't really know anything, and so they they kind of had a clean slate to work with and have any. Bad habits as far as blocking and took coaching pretty well and.

• 23:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  I mean, your career has obviously turned out great. Do you sometimes think I wish I could have stayed a tight end, though?

• 23:20Speaker 02

  No, I would have never, maybe I would have been in the NFL for like one or two seasons.

• 23:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Why?

• 23:24Speaker 02

  No, I wasn't fast enough.

• 23:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ah.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  For a tight end, you know, I was fast for a lineman. Not fast enough for a tight end. So I didn't have that explosion with the guys here.

• 23:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. So for people who don't know football at all, um, left tackle, just describe kind of your um. A, primary missions, especially relating to protecting quarterback and also like what you actually do with your body.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, so I play left tackle, which is considered the blind side of the quarterback made famous by that movie. Um.

• 23:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, a book before a movie.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, the book. Yeah, the book. Yep. Uh, Michael Lewis, right?

• 23:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Michael Lewis.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  Yep. Um.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  So I protect the quarterback's blind side. So basically when he's dropped back into protection, he's a right-handed quarterback. He can't see, obviously behind him. So that's why they call it the blind side. And yeah, I mean, my primary job in the run game is to move the guy that's in front of me from point A to point B, wherever the scheme is, whatever the play calls for. We have a plethora of different blocks that we have to do. And then different combinations, single blocks, double blocks, whatever they are. And then in the pass game, basically keep the defender from rushing the passer and getting a sack on the quarterback.

• 24:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  How, I remember we used to hear that on average by position, offensive linemen were the smartest players on a team. Some people would say QB, some would say OL. You know anything about it? I mean, do you feel like, is your group particularly, because the playbook, you need to not make mistakes, obviously.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a different thing. I think quarterback obviously is probably has to know the most. You know, thinking just straight intelligence, offensive linemen tend to be smarter. I don't know if it's just because of everything. The way we have to break down a playbook, like I have to understand not what I'm just doing as a left tackle, but I have to understand what the left guard, center, right guard, and right tackle are doing. And sometimes also the tight ends. And also the formations, I have to know where the receivers are and all that stuff. So you have to have a heavy grasp of everything. And it kind of ties together, especially up front, like all five guys playing together. And I have to know the adjustments that we make. So say a defense comes down, they're bringing a safety down, that kind of changes our blocking scheme for a particular play.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  And it all happens within two seconds. I have to be able to process all that information, know exactly what the adjustments are, what I'm supposed to say, how that affects me, and then also the guy next to me, what my call is to my tight end, if I have one not next to me. I mean, that's just on one particular play.

• 25:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you make mistakes?

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, all the time.

• 25:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how many mistakes might you make? Like, you're one of the best in the game. How many mistakes of a nature of, you know, actually either an assignment or a pack?

• 26:05Speaker 02

  We have like, you know, mental.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  You can call them MAs or uh I don't even know what that stands for. Mental assignment error or something like that.

• 26:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Like misassignment, there it is.

• 26:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  Misassignment, it's like a mental error.

• 26:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  MEs, MAs.

• 26:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. And you're graded on those after every?

• 26:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, those are minimal, you know, those are, I think, if you're getting an MA, that's just poor preparation.

• 26:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  You should have a firm grasp by the time you get to game day, you should have a firm grasp of, you know, every single situation that we have. Um, what the playbook is, obviously, and um, you know, the combination blocks and everything you're gonna be making on the football field. But um, you know, technique is a huge part of what makes offensive linemen successful. And that's why we drill, you know, individual drills and we'll, we'll drill like the little tiny techniques of where exactly your foot placements are, your foot angles, your, your hands, your levers, um, you know, your hip roll in the run game, your, what we call pass sets, um, you know, our kick slides, the angle that we work using our kick slides, the hand placement on that,

• 27:08Speaker 02

  when to use our hands, so those are always like, yes, very, very rarely are you gonna be perfect.

• 27:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  You know, and so it's uh, you know, I consider those mistakes, like, you're always kinda like judging yourself of, A, did you do your job, did you win the block, and then B, like, how can I make it better, like, you know, well, my hand was late here on this pass set and I didn't get it exactly where I want it to be, so, you know, try better next time.

• 27:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you've had something like six or seven head coaches in your career here?

• 27:34Speaker 02

  This is my sixth.

• 27:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Your six?

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 27:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um, so we can talk a little bit about the, you know, stormy years, then last year, the very bad start and the great turnaround. But um, before we do that, when Kyle Shanahan came in for a guy like you, offensive lineman, how much new was there to learn, and I guess for every head coach, how much new was there to learn?

• 27:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, every head coach kinda brings something new, cause they all have a different, you know, scheme that they run offensively. And a way of looking at the game of football. I've been. Fortunate and unfortunate to play with so many so many different head coaches and also, I mean, this is not only six head coaches, but eight offensive coordinators. So I've been in eight different offensive systems. So I've kind of seen everything. And so when Kyle came in, I knew he was, you know, basically his staple was zone, outside zone, inside zone and play action. So I was pretty, you know, well versed in how to attack a defense with that. But what was, what I kind of wasn't ready for was is how detail oriented his

• 28:37Speaker 02

  specific scheme is and how, how everything is pieced together in the way that he kind of sees X's and O's. And the way he sees a football field is pretty different than typical offensive coordinator. So I was really excited just because of his reputation that he's had in the NFL, but I got a firsthand experience of that pretty, pretty quick.

• 28:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  So I can't remember, was it last year, the beginning of last year, when, when, when you were hurt and thinking about retiring and basically everything was kind of garbage? Was that last year during the, during the losing streak? So can you just walk us through like last season from your perspective? It was an amazing turnaround, obviously, but also you being hurt. I'm just curious to hear.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  So I had, I just had a hip and pinchment, basically something, nothing that was injured, just something that was kind of dealing with. I was causing my right knee to feel like crap, basically. There was not really an injury. There was nothing torn structurally. It was really, really good, but it was just one of those deals that every time I would load that leg up, which I do every single play, there was some kind of, it felt like just basically bone on bone rubbing. And it just got to be really, really painful. And something that I was kind of just dealing with through the season, getting a ton of treatment, I mean, doing everything I can to make, make sure I felt as good as I possibly could.

• 29:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  You missed games?

• 29:52Speaker 02

  No, I didn't miss any games, but just like as far as, you know, what I had to do to get myself through it. I was in year 11. I was on my sixth head coach. We were, I think. At this time, like oh and seven and was just like, you know, I had mental lapse of weakness there where I was just, you know, the adversity kind of got to me. So I was, uh,

• 30:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  You were talking to your wife about it? You were, you were?

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was the first time I was just like, you know, this might be my last year. I don't know if I can just continue to do this if my body's starting to fail me like this and I feel like I'm doing everything I can. It's just not responding like it used to.

• 30:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you'd been winning, it would have felt different, I assume?

• 30:30Speaker 02

  You know, winning kind of heals everything, but also it wasn't really that. It was just kind of the, it was more so just the way my body was feeling.

• 30:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. And then how did it get better or did it not?

• 30:40Speaker 02

  It did. Actually, it was, um, right before the Eagles games, um, it just kind of released. Um, I don't know exactly what it was, but I was doing,

• 30:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Tea or something?

• 30:49Speaker 02

  No, I was doing like a bunch of different like stretches and I think everything was just kind of bound up. And I ended up doing this kind of stretch and or like on my own and just was so frustrated. And I don't recommend this for anybody listening, but like I just really like wrenched down on this stretch and was just like, so it was in a moment of frustration and I was really pissed. And I just kind of put all my body weight into the stretch and I just felt like my whole entire hip just went

• 31:20Speaker 02

  and you could just, I could feel it move and then like it was sore for two days, like really, really sore. And then the knee pain was kind of gone after that. So I think it kind of released. I don't know what it was, but it was.

• 31:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you tell your trainer?

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Oh, I told everybody. Everybody was pumped up about it.

• 31:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  And do you think the trainer is going to recommend that for future athletes who have a?

• 31:41Speaker 02

  I don't know. They, they probably just think I'm making up stuff. Just kind of, oh, yeah, just move your body in weird ways, distort yourself.

• 31:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  When you were at your bottom and like, you know, hurting and thinking about quitting and so on, I know your wife is a former athlete as well, who high level soccer player who, um, never made the women's national team because of injury herself, right? Is that right? So I'm curious what those conversations were like. Um, obviously you'd had a long career, but I'm curious what those conversations were like.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Well, we didn't really talk seriously about it, you know, but I had seen her kind of go through just when she was done with playing soccer, the league folder that she was playing in, um, and just, you know, some that she was. Playing consistently and at a high level since he was like six, seven years old. Then all of a sudden to be gone, just kind of seeing that transition. So, you know, when that day does come for me, we, you know, it was the first time I actually brought up possibly not playing football anymore and probably got a little bit scared of just that, like even talking about that.

• 32:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Have, do you have thoughts about what you'll do afterwards?

• 32:47Speaker 02

  No idea, no idea.

• 32:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  TV?

• 32:51Speaker 02

  I don't even, you know, I don't even wanna.

• 32:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  I mean, I don't wanna jinx it if you're not, if you don't wanna go in that direction.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  More of a radio guy, maybe? I don't know. I have no idea, really.

• 33:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  You have the notes for radio.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  I definitely do, I definitely do. I, I don't know, you know, I don't know, I haven't really thought, I haven't really thought about that too much. Cause I don't know, I just don't want like my mind, the way my mind works, I'm very structured and I have to like very stay in, I have to stay in the moment. And so if I start thinking about like setting myself up for life after football, then I'm just worried that I'm not gonna be as focused as I need to be.

• 33:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  You know, let me ask you this, it's obvious now that a lot of former athletes, even those who make quite a lot of money, when they're done, often not done at a time of their own choosing, all of a sudden like they don't have a, a career, a career. And they don't, they often don't have anywhere near as much money as they kind of thought they would have, or they didn't take care of it well, et cetera. But one of the conflicts, I think, is what you just said, which is when you're an athlete, you wanna devote all your mental energy to being good now. So do you have any advice for athletes or for people who are trying to help athletes in the afterlife? How do you balance that? You know, do your job now, do it well, but also try to think about preparing for the future?

• 33:59Speaker 02

  I'm probably not the best person for that because like I said, I mean, I'm not really setting myself up for life after football.

• 34:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  But you're in good, you're making enough money unless you're a total fool with it, which you seem like you're not, you're gonna be fine. There are a lot of people who are, right?

• 34:16Speaker 02

  That's the, that's the conundrum there is where, where do you?

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Like you said, you want to set yourself up for for success after football and use this avenue to kind of propel yourself into something that is beneficial for you. When this is all done, because it's I mean, it's a short part of our life right here. You know, I've been fortunate enough to play for going on 12 years and even then, if I retired this, I mean, I'm still 33, you know.

• 34:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Uh, so I have hopefully a large chunk of my life left.

• 34:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Have you ever been a player rep on your team or are you now?

• 34:49Speaker 02

  No, I'm not.

• 34:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Uh, but like if you were, if the P A came to you and said, listen, Joe, you've had this amazing long career. How would you suggest that the more at the median player, the guy who's going to be in for three or four years and who earns maybe four to eight million dollars, which sounds in the beginning like a lifetime, but it's not. How would you know, do you have any advice?

• 35:10Speaker 02

  The P A does a great job of setting us up with programs and stuff in the off season of of trying to take advantage. I mean, that's all to the players as well, though, you know, and that's more of the thing that, you know, what you said is, you know, for me personally, like, I have two young kids. The off season is my time to really hang out and be a dad and, you know, I love spending time with them and love being with them and all this stuff is kind of set up for, you know, a week, two week programs, and I just don't want to sacrifice that week, potentially just hang out with my kids, just go and, you know, go to broadcasting boot camp or whatever it is. And, um, you know, I feel like this is kind of like on the job training too for that stuff.

• 35:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  I mean, I try to take this stuff seriously is what I'm doing is this, this could be a potential avenue for me down the road and something and broadcasting or something like that. But, um, as far as taking advantage of the programs, I'm probably the best person to talk about.

• 36:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. All right. So go back to last year, losing nine in a row. You'd never, had you ever been on a team in your whole athletic career where you lost nine games in a row at anything?

• 36:12Speaker 02

  The year before that, we went two and 14.

• 36:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, true.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  So we had a rough, rough roll there for a couple of years. And I think that was what it was coupled with too, you know, with my body feeling bad. We'd come off a two and 14 year, new head coach again, kind of going the oh and seven route as we were going at that point in the season last year and was just kind of.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Oh, I just don't want to be a part of a rebuild again.

• 36:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Like, you know, maybe this is farther along than I thought, but it's not, you know, and I think that we have a really good thing going here.

• 36:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  So we keep hearing from players and execs that even at oh and nine, the locker room was good. The building was, you know, positive.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  It was.

• 36:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  It it sounds like everybody but you, you, it sounds like.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  No, this was me.

• 36:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yours is more about personally.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  This was me personally.

• 36:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  The locker room, and I was pretty, I mean, I was pretty vocal about this with the media here, was something I'd never like seen before in my career. I mean, in 11 years, I haven't seen a locker room that was going through the adversity that we had gone through last season and still stayed so solid and together. There was not the, I mean, I was on teams where we were twelve and four, thirteen and three, and we had more division in the locker room than we had last year at oh and nine.

• 37:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  How do you?

• 37:21Speaker 02

  So, and then we had a game when we won against New York Giants, and I was like celebrating it. It was like, and I even had a quote in the paper here. It was like, I felt, this felt as good as when we won the NFC Championship game because I was just so like deserving for all the guys in the locker room to like have that success, to stay with it. And I think that was kind of how, one of the huge reasons why we finished the way we did.

• 37:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  How do you account for that positivity? I mean, obviously, the coach, everybody, I I'm guessing guys like you also played a big role, but still it's hard to be oh and nine and.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  It did, yeah, it's very trying, and I think it definitely starts with leadership up front, you know, it starts with, with John, it starts with Kyle, you know, the kind of culture that they set, the way they come to work after a loss, you know, they kind of set the table for everybody else. And then, you know, it's up to the veteran players as well to kind of go out there on the practice field and and keep working.

• 38:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Every single day and kind of setting the example of how you work through it and, you know, not pointing the fingers.

• 38:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  We had a really good room as far as that goes. And then, and we had a really cool rookie class last year, too, that just didn't, you know, take it easy way out. They just kept on, kept on working really, really hard. So it was fun to see.

• 38:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you think?

• 38:34Speaker 02

  It kind of came together.

• 38:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you think that had anything to do with the kind of people that John was looking for in his rookie draft?

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it definitely did. I think it was, I mean, you saw that right away when those guys came in. They were guys that were not so much about being an NFL football player, but they enjoyed the work of being an NFL football player, and football meant something to them. And, you know, that's one of the hard things to figure out about guys coming out of college now is because they're so. Program to say what they think they're supposed to be saying to the executives and the head coach that really don't know, you know, what you're getting. And I think they did a tremendous job of figuring out, you know, who are the right guys to bring in.

• 39:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  You know, across the whole entire draft class last season, we had guys that really performed.

• 39:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um, McGlinchey is the giant, uh, excuse me, McGlinchey is the Niners' number one pick this year.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  He's a giant too.

• 39:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  He is a giant.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  He's a giant man.

• 39:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right. So we've been reading that you have been very helpful, taking them under your slightly less giant wing.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  And this is an amazing thing to people outside of football where, you know, you've got guys on a team who are working with their ultimate replacements, um, and yet trying to help them. Now, I'm guessing you in your 12th year, it's a little easier. If you were in your fourth year, you, he, he might be a little bit more of a threat. I'm curious if you could talk about that whole dynamic for a second.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's a little bit different too, because we have two different positions. You know, he plays right side, I'm playing left side.

• 40:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  But ultimately, he's designed to move over, right?

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, in the draft, ninth overall, they go play.

• 40:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  Right tackle the whole career.

• 40:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  But yeah, I mean, I'm trying to, we're all trying to win games here. So, I mean, it doesn't matter. If I'm feeling insecure about my job that I can't help a guy that's coming in, um, I mean, that's on me.

• 40:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  When you came in. When you came in as a rookie, did you have guys who theoretically could have felt threatened by you, but who, uh, but who helped you out a lot?

• 40:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, we had, um, we had a good room. Um, it wasn't, we didn't have like an established guy. I mean, I was, I came in and was competing right away.

• 40:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Um, you know, I kind of got drafted to take someone's job. Um, so that was a little bit different of dynamic, but it was never like, you know, there's another, there was no like weird tension in the room about that. Um, and I just feel like.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  I don't know, I'm trying to teach him everything I know. I feel like it's my duty as a, as an offensive lineman that's been in this league for a long time to try to, you know, accelerate his progression as a, as a football player. And I'm just trying to teach him everything I can. And it's up to him if he wants to listen, if he doesn't want to listen. And he figured out himself, and that's kind of what I did too, to figure out what works best for you. But I'm not gonna, if he, if he wants to ask me anything, he can about the NFL, NFL life, you know, you know, how to take care of your body off the field, you know, who to, you know, associate with, who not to associate with, all the stuff that comes with you being an NFL player. I mean, I'm more than welcome to, more than willing to help him out there.

• 41:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  So at the end of the season, winning the last five, a QB who obviously was, you know, performing really well, hopefully long-term. What did that feel like for you? Like, on the one hand, you were a six and 10 team, which isn't very good. On the other hand, you go out with a five-game winning streak and you are feeling better. So what was your kind of mind like during the offseason and then now preseason, looking toward this year? How optimistic? How realistic, et cetera, et cetera?

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it was huge for our team last year to finish the way we did. You know, Jimmy coming in really made a huge difference for us. How he played at a high level, you can see why, you know, we gave up, you know, draft pick for him, signed him to a big contract this offseason. He's, he's the real deal every way. But I think the, the trap is too, is to look at that last season, those five games that we ended up with and think that we're just gonna show up and do that, do that again this year. I mean, every season, I've been a part of it for a long time. Every season is a brand new season and brings a lot of different challenges and different situations that you have to deal with, whether it be injuries or, you know, another team in the division stepping up or.

• 42:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  You guys had a lot of injuries last year, didn't you?

• 42:42Speaker 02

  We did. Last couple, two years, actually, we've had a, had a lot of injuries, a lot of guys going IR. Um, so I mean, that's just the thing is taking it one day at a time. And I think we've done a good job with that this offseason so far.

• 42:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Were you a big fan of Richard Sherman in previous years?

• 42:57Speaker 02

  No, because he was on the other team and he was so good. But I think that was part of the reason why I wasn't because he was so good at what he did. You know, he's so frustrating to go against because he kind of knew that that side of the field is always going to be kind of taken care of. Whenever he played in the Seahawks. So I'm super excited to have him on our team, obviously. I mean, I think he's a great person, great player. Um, he brings a ton of veteran leadership to the locker room and especially in that DB room that we have right now. It's a, it's a young room. To add him as a veteran voice in there is me nothing but positive.

• 43:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  How many games uh would you need to win this year to consider it a successful season?

• 43:30Speaker 02

  I always just think of it as a Super Bowl, you know, even the years that we were looked at on paper as not being a good team. And I've always just thought that's a goal. I mean, it should be the goal every single year. And um, but I never really have gotten into like what the win is, what the predictions are because I mean, that's our goal every single season. At the end of the day too, this is what you can do today to better yourself to to get to that goal. So.

• 43:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um, you're probably the only guy here, maybe a couple who lost the Super Bowl, right?

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, me and Garrett Selleck, I believe, were the only two left, right? I think so. Yep.

• 44:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um, what's that feel like?

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Losing the Super Bowl or being the one of the last two?

• 44:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  No, losing the Super Bowl.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Oh, man, it sucked. It was, oh, that's like the worst day of my life. Thanks for bringing that up.

• 44:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  You're welcome.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  No, I mean, we were so, the way we did it too is uh, it's still very fresh in my mind. Um. You know, we were, we were down big early, then had that big comeback in the second half and then had that drive in the fourth quarter, kind of time was running out. We had first and goal from the seven yard line, thinking that we're going to go in. We're the best rushing attack in the NFL and you know, we passed it four times. So. Or three times. We ran it the first time.

• 44:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  And then lost. So I mean, this sucked because we were so close. I mean, just taste it. You know, that victory was so close, but it wasn't meant to be. So.

• 44:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  I think.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Here I am and I play till I'm 20, you know?

• 44:52Speaker 02

  20 more years to try to win a Super Bowl.

• 44:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Uh, so I have to say, I admire you as a football player. You seem like a fine human, but what I really, really, really like is I find your musical performances.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Oh, gosh.

• 45:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  I think your hukunamata is the finest I've ever heard.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 45:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's absolutely extraordinary. So I would be so honored.

• 45:13Speaker 04

  Just the who?

• 45:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'll take some Hakuna Matata. I'll take whatever you, I mean, I know you've been working hard. You just came in from a two hour practice. I don't know Moana.

• 45:23Speaker 04

  All right, well, I don't, I don't know Moana.

• 45:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's your, uh, what's your repertoire? What do you got?

• 45:27Speaker 04

  Oh, I got, so I got a four year old daughter who's obsessed with Disney songs. And so that's my repertoire right now. Um, and Moana is her go to.

• 45:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Uh, I'm sure I love Moana. Um, it's really up to you.

• 45:38Speaker 04

  Okay, okay, okay. I see what's happening. Yeah. You're face to face with greatness and it's strange. You don't even know how you feel. It's adorable. Well, it's nice to see that humans never change. Open your eyes. Let's begin. Yes, it's really me. It's Maui. Breathe it in. I know it's a lot, the hair, the bod. When you're staring at a demigod. What can I say except you're welcome for the time it's uh... All right, I'm gonna do Hakuna Matata.

• 46:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  By the way, you know who sings that, Steven, in the, in the movie? I don't.

• 46:20Speaker 04

  The Rock.

• 46:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Rock. Oh, really? Really? Oh, yeah. All right. You better watch out.

• 46:27Speaker 04

  Hakuna Matata. What a wonderful phrase. Hakuna Matata. Ain't no passing craze.

• 46:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  It means no worries for the rest of your days. It's a problem free philosophy. Hakuna Matata.

• 46:53Speaker 04

  There you go.

• 46:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Extraordinary. Ladies and gentlemen, Joe Staley, left tackle for the 49ers and future, um, musical theater.

• 47:01Speaker 04

  I've got gadgets and gizmos aplenty. I've got who's it's and what's it's galore. You want a thing of the bobs? I got, is it 20 or plenty?

• 47:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wait, wait.

• 47:13Speaker 04

  I got 20.

• 47:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  You don't have kids. What are you doing?

• 47:15Speaker 04

  But who cares? No big deal. I want more.

• 47:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can't believe there's a question about what you're doing, uh, after football. It seems obvious. Children's theater.

• 47:27Speaker 04

  More silver.

• 47:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Pleasure and I thank you very much. Yeah, thank you very much. I, I wish you, uh, a very successful season. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Yeah, thanks so much for coming in. I'm listening to you guys all the time, too. Oh, thanks. Appreciate it.

• 47:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  And here now is our conversation with the brand new 49er and giant of a man that Staley was talking about, offensive tackle Mike McGlinchey.

• 48:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  You are gonna be starting here playing right tackle, I understand?

• 48:07Speaker 03

  Yes, sir.

• 48:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yes, migrating eventually to left tackle, probably.

• 48:11Speaker 03

  If that's their plan.

• 48:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's what they say.

• 48:13Speaker 03

  I'll do whatever they say they need me to do.

• 48:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  So here's the thing, we always hear like, obviously you're, you know, first round draft pick, so there, nobody's trying to bury you, but we do hear the stories about how veterans who are trying to, you know, theoretically make welcome young guys at their positions, sometimes aren't as welcoming as they might be. I know that you've been getting a, you know, good advice and welcome from Joe Staley. I'm just curious like what your expectations were and so on on that front?

• 48:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, I really didn't know what to expect because I've heard a lot of different things. I came from an O-line room that was completely the opposite of that. We, at Notre Dame, we always helped out everyone that came into the room, no matter what age you were, you were always, you know, welcome to this part of the family. And fortunately here in San Francisco, I've had the same experience thus far. I mean, it's a, an awesome group that we have and there hasn't been anybody that's making you feel like crap or anybody that's making you pay your dues too hard, other than, you know, a couple of jokes here and there. But, no, it's, it's been an awesome experience with all the vets, all the guys that we have in our room and everybody's just trying to do the same job and that's the.

• 49:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is there any rookie hazing anymore?

• 49:24Speaker 03

  Uh, nothing that I've experienced. I mean, we're only, we're only in day two of practice, so wait, I'm assuming I'm waiting till training camp. I still have my guard up a little bit, so, yeah, even in two weeks, I still have a little bit of a, a guard up to see what's coming.

• 49:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Uh, you're how tall?

• 49:38Speaker 03

  About six foot eight.

• 49:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  And you're weighing what?

• 49:40Speaker 03

  Like 310, something like that, yeah.

• 49:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  And, uh, what's, uh, what's your optimal weight? Is that about?

• 49:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, right there.

• 49:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's your, what's your shirt? Is it?

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a West Point. A family friend of ours plays basketball up there.

• 49:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  I see.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  They had a, I think they missed, bought a 2XL. So, I was one guy that they knew for it, yeah.

• 49:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um, you come from a big family, four brothers, one sister, something like that?

• 50:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, four brothers, one sister. I'm the oldest of six.

• 50:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, uh, are they athletic?

• 50:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, um, nothing, uh, I don't know, we'll see. They're all younger than me, so I don't know if anybody's gonna make it to the NFL. But yeah, they're, they're, they definitely play their sports.

• 50:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, yeah. Um, so how many games have you missed due to injury in the last ever years?

• 50:21Speaker 03

  Never. I've never missed a game. Yeah, there's always, ever since, unless there was like a family obligation when I was in like in first or second grade, but I can't remember that, so.

• 50:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  But, um, since you play football, presumably you've been a little bit injured.

• 50:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know.

• 50:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  What are some of the things you've played through?

• 50:36Speaker 03

  Uh, sprained left ankle, stomach flu, uh, broken hand, you know, couple nicks everywhere, so nothing, nothing major.

• 50:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Was the broken hand something that most sane people would have not played with, or?

• 50:50Speaker 03

  Uh, depends on how much you love football, I guess, yeah.

• 50:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Um, can you explain, especially for people who don't care or know anything about football at all, like, what's your job?

• 51:01Speaker 03

  My job is to, uh, open up running lanes and keep people off of Jimmy Garoppolo. So that's all I can really, I'm just, I just kinda get in the way is really what my job is, yeah.

• 51:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um, so the paradox, or I guess the, maybe it's not a paradox, it's the, the, the hard thing to come across is someone with your size, um, who's also fast and coordinated and a good athlete. So there aren't that many of you to start with, but then there are a lot of people your size and speed who don't make it. So what is it you think that is the difference between people who are physically capable and who are gifted with the size, but who don't have the capability to play at your level in college and now in the NFL?

• 51:43Speaker 03

  Well, I think it's, it's all mental, I think. I think it's about how much you want it, how much you love it, and how much you're willing to sacrifice for it. I was never the best athlete on my team. I was, I'm, I'm still not the best athlete on my, on my team here. Um, but I've always wanted it more. I've always worked harder than everybody else and, and, um, just attention to detail and the things that you, you need to know how to self-correct. You need to know how to learn. And, uh, I was always pretty good at learning. So the faster you can do that and, and combine with, you know, really, really truly wanting something that bad. Um, that's what separates.

• 52:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can you give me an example of that? Like, I like football. I've liked football my whole life, but like, I really don't know. When you talk about learning how to learn in your positions, give me an example of a particular thing that you've gotten better at maybe over the years and how you figured out how to get better at.

• 52:37Speaker 03

  I think it's just fundamentally and how to move up. Playing offensive line is one of the more unnatural human movements on earth in sport, I think. Um, you're required to move other large men out of the way and when you're trying to stop them in pass protection, you're completely moving backwards. So it's a, it's a different, it's a really, really different thing to have to learn how to do. And, uh, until your body can feel it, until you can watch it on film and self-diagnose right when things happen, um, that's where the separation comes in.

• 53:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  So when you watch yourself on film, what do you, uh, what do you look for? What do you learn from? Do you see like, do you look at for a case where if you've been beat, what you were doing? Were you bent or wrong? You know?

• 53:19Speaker 03

  Um, well, you know, when you get beat and you're at this level, you know why pretty much immediately. Um, you're just looking at it to look at it and visualize it, have how not to do it again.

• 53:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  When you say why, does that mean because it's you or because it's the other guy was, was?

• 53:31Speaker 03

  I'm pretty convinced that offensive, unless you're getting an absolute freakazoid,

• 53:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 53:37Speaker 03

  all defensive players are playing off of what you do. So if I can control what I can do better than the other guy, then I'm going to be in a better position.

• 53:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 53:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  What about, um, just confidence? Um, does it ebb and flow for you?

• 53:52Speaker 03

  I think it is when you're young, when you're first starting out at a major level of football like it did at Notre Dame for me, my first couple of years, I certainly didn't believe that I was gonna be what I became to be, and I'm still not, I don't think, what I want to be, so it's always, it's a learning process of continuing to move on and continue to get better, and, you know, definitely confidence waves a little bit when you're young and mistakes constantly are happening, but when you get to this level, if you're not confident, you're probably not gonna be able to, you know, do your job.

• 54:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  But that said, I mean, there are a lot of guys who get drafted first round who don't work out, there are a lot of guys who are undrafted, well, maybe not a lot of guys who are undrafted, but there are undrafted guys who do become great players, become Hall of Fame players, how do you, you know, how do you account for that, I mean?

• 54:41Speaker 03

  I think that a lot of guys come from smaller situations or different situations in college that they, that some of the undrafted guys that, you know, had a tough situation in college, came from a smaller school, had other people producing ahead of them at their school, and, you know, they're late bloomers, and then once they get their shot, and eventually some, if you really truly wanted a flipper switch inside you to make sure it happens. And I think sometimes first round things, there's a lot of, especially in today's day and age, there's a lot of media, a lot of media attention, and if you play at a big time program, or if you have a lot of media attention behind you, you know, you're kind of pressured in making picks that necessarily aren't the best ones, and it's a mixture

• 55:24Speaker 03

  of misinformation of first round guys, of who they are as a person and what they can do as a player, and I think some of it's probably a little bit of complacency as well.

• 55:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Being a first round pick, there's obviously a huge, you know, pride or badge of honor associated with that, but on the other hand... Especially when you come into your team now and you were your team's first pick this year, what kind of pressure does that put on you?

• 55:49Speaker 03

  I'm not really worried about the pressure and I think that's one thing that I learned greater as college went on and you know, once attention starts getting towards your way, then expectations just continue to grow and you should look at expectation as something that you've earned and I think that's something that I've always tried to do is if people are expecting the highest and most production out of me, then I've done something right along the way to get there. So I just gotta stay true to what I'm doing and stay true to who I am and good things will happen.

• 56:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  If I recall, and I may be wrong, so pardon me if I am, you were not contacted by the Niners during the run-up to the draft, is that right?

• 56:27Speaker 03

  So I had one formal interview with them at the Combine for 15 minutes long and that was the only contact that I had.

• 56:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  And then you probably had contact with a lot of other teams as well, correct?

• 56:36Speaker 03

  A lot of other teams, yeah. I had, you know, individual workouts where coaches came to my school. I was flown to, you know, some of these teams were three or four different visits with them and you know, sometimes it's just all facade and they're trying to play a hand with other teams or sometimes it's really truly invested interest in you.

• 56:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  But yeah, I think that I'm lucky because I love the situation here. I love where this organization is at and you know, the area that I get to live in now is pretty sweet too, so.

• 57:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did they not, I mean, you always hear these cat and mouse games that a team won't contact a guy like you because they don't want to tip to other teams that they're interested in you. Did you talk about that after the fact with John?

• 57:18Speaker 03

  I didn't, I didn't talk about it necessarily. I did a little bit with Kyle because he had had a, he was joking around with me because he was so close with my cousin Matt.

• 57:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 57:27Speaker 03

  Who was his quarterback for two years.

• 57:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Your cousin Matt Ryan, who's one of the best quarterbacks in the last whatever, 10, 15 years.

• 57:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's done a pretty good job, yeah. But Kyle and him were pretty close and he didn't even tell Kyle that they were interested just because he didn't want it to get back to either me or somebody else.

• 57:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Why?

• 57:41Speaker 03

  Well, just so that things didn't happen unpredictably during the draft.

• 57:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  So they don't lose you to someone else?

• 57:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. So how surprised were you? Who'd you get the call from, John or Kyle?

• 57:51Speaker 03

  John was first and then Kyle was right after him.

• 57:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 57:54Speaker 03

  So as soon as Roquan Smith was announced for the Bears, my phone rang and there was John Lynch on the other line and I'm pretty excited. I didn't expect it to happen, but it was, it was pretty awesome.

• 58:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 58:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  This team has obviously had a pretty eventful last, well, like 50 years, but the last, you know, five, eight, 10 years, particularly some good and a lot not so good. What's it feel like to be coming on to a team? Obviously, you've got your stuff to take care of, but this team is in turnaround that started out really bad last year, then ended up really, really good. I'm just curious, what you think of as like, what are you gonna contribute to that turnaround?

• 58:36Speaker 03

  Well, I hope to continue to do my job and, and, and to the best of my ability and at the best ability in this league to, you know, help the 49ers win games. The only three goals that I've ever had in my, uh, my career of playing high level football is to help my team win, be the best at what I do. And then, you know, the third one is be the best offensive line unit that, and I guess now in the NFL, it wasn't in the, in the nation in college, but now it's in the NFL.

• 59:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. You were captain of Notre Dame two, twice, right? What are some duties associated with that that the public might not know about?

• 59:08Speaker 03

  Um, I don't know if there's anything, you know, everybody knows what a captain does, I think. It's just-

• 59:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  You're not doing bed checks.

• 59:14Speaker 03

  No, I mean, if it's needed, I would've, but we had, we had a pretty good group of guys in Notre Dame that, you know, it was, it wasn't, it wasn't, we had some hard times there in my true senior season. We went four and eight. It was a hard season, but, you know, it's just the normal, be a good teammate, set the example, and if anything that needs, needs to be said, that needs to be said, you say it.

• 59:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Uh, how many calories do you eat in a day? Do you know?

• 59:36Speaker 03

  I don't count. I just try to eat what's right for me and, and I know my body at this point of what I need to eat to keep weight on, or if I need, I, I, I haven't really ever had the feeling of needing to lose weight, but, um, so to get my body to feel and look the best that it can, I know what I need to do.

• 59:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. So I weigh like 172. Do you think you could like break me?

• 59:58Speaker 03

  Um, it depends on where we're going. I don't, I don't know. I don't know if I could- Break you on a football field, but if I.

• 1:00:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Like what if just throw me up against a wall here?

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  I don't know if I have that. I don't know if I have that killer instinct in me to just do that. Yeah.

• 1:00:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  You mean right now?

• 1:00:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, if I step between white lines, it's a little different.

• 1:00:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm just curious, like, literally what a guy of your strength and size could do? Like, you could pick me up and put me through this wall, though, right?

• 1:00:25Speaker 03

  Normally, um, offensive linemen are the best guys on the football team, so.

• 1:00:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  I know that. I know that. You're also the smartest.

• 1:00:30Speaker 03

  But that's the thing with football. It's a, it's a dangerous game. It can, it's hard. It's hard to live through, and it's hard to be able to flip that switch. And some guys, you know, unfortunately, aren't able to, to, to have as distinct lines with that. And, but, um, the good ones do, and the best guys do, and it's, it's a matter of, you know, when it's time to work, it's time to work, and you have to have that edge to you. But, you know, when you're in everyday life, you're no better than anybody else.

• 1:00:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's really interesting you say that. I, uh, a, a sports journalist, a really good sports writer, once wrote, um, this thing that captivated me about sports, because I've been a sports fan for a long time, and he said, when athletes get in trouble, everybody says, oh, you know, they, they kind of make more of it than, than is normal. And he said that if you think about it, sports, you're encouraged to do all these things that you're, you're not allowed to do.

• 1:01:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're supposed to be big and mighty. You're supposed to be the, as, you know, there's supposed to be a different aura about you when you cross it, when you get onto a field, that it's not normal for society. So it, it definitely, um, it, it's a hazy world if, if you, if you can't manage yourself, but, you know, I've never had that issue.

• 1:01:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, you seem, I mean, plainly, your record is, is, we know that you can manage yourself. Have you had guys on your team, Notre Dame, let's say, who you saw were having a hard time drawing that line and tried to help them?

• 1:01:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's, it's not as much of a physical thing as it is mental. Um, you know, when guys get a little too big for their britches, you got to bring them back a little bit, or, or if they're just non-responsive, then you got to figure out a way to, you know, probably get them off your team. So, um, like I said, you know, you, you're a great football player. You can, we can all be great football players, but in the end of the day, we're no better than anybody else. We have, we have a job. Other people have jobs that they do, so it's just our line of work, you know? It's a different, just a different field of work.

• 1:02:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Uh, I thank you very much, and I hope you have a great first year, and I wish you all success.

• 1:02:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Next up is Kyle Juszczyk, a fullback about to start his second season with the 49ers.

• 1:02:44Speaker 05

  Just got done doing some brain training.

• 1:02:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  What is brain training?

• 1:02:46Speaker 05

  So we've been doing some stuff with this company called Narrow Peak Pro that, I mean, it started off as you just working on some different breathing techniques, syncing it up with your heart rate. But now we've kind of moved on to a more advanced part of it where you're working on putting your brain in a parasympathetic state. I don't want to get too...

• 1:03:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's that? I mean, I kind of know what the word means, but I don't know how...

• 1:03:10Speaker 05

  Basically like gets you out of that fight or flight sense where, you know, a lot of us, we could just be sitting in a room like this and for whatever reason, your brain is in that fight or flight state and it can't calm down and it can't get into this recovery mode. So we do this thing where we're like, we watch, basically you're hooked up, these sensors are reading your brainwaves and depending on how they're reacting, while you're watching a movie, that movie will either shrink, or pause, or brighten, and it's kind of like giving your brain feedback on how it's supposed to act and kind of puts you back into a better...

• 1:03:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  This is over multiple sessions, over multiple days or something?

• 1:03:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I'm, right now, I'm trying to log, I think it's 15 hours worth of training and I'm about 12 hours in.

• 1:04:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  How many other guys on the team are doing this?

• 1:04:05Speaker 05

  I don't know how many players. Do you know? Probably like six.

• 1:04:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  So it's voluntary?

• 1:04:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  And why'd you volunteer?

• 1:04:13Speaker 05

  Well, I had a concussion last year and so this offseason, I kind of made like a... Decided that I wanted to put a lot of uh energy towards my brain this offseason.

• 1:04:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:27Speaker 05

  So this was something that uh I came across and jumped on it.

• 1:04:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Interesting. Um how so you're like twelve hours into your and what happens when you become like proficient at fifteen hours? Can you hypnotize?

• 1:04:38Speaker 05

  Well, I'll get a reassessment at fifteen hours.

• 1:04:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:41Speaker 05

  Um and we'll kind of see, you know, where my brain is at. But I've already seen the benefits of it where um anxiety levels have gone down um big time. Sleeping well and uh I already feel like I'm processing information faster.

• 1:04:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, how do you persuade yourself that that's not all placebo?

• 1:05:01Speaker 05

  Oh, I know. Yeah, that's definitely something um you know you have to watch out for, but I mean I'm.

• 1:05:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  I mean, even if it is.

• 1:05:08Speaker 05

  That's what I always say about the placebo effect. Even if none of those supplements in my locker work, right? Technically work.

• 1:05:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Speaker 05

  If in my head they are, then they are.

• 1:05:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Have you has it translated all into playing football?

• 1:05:19Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, today was only our second day of practice. Um I mean, I want to think that I was processing things visually quicker today. So I mean, hopefully.

• 1:05:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Interesting. Yeah. Um let's back up just since we didn't get it. Would you just say your name and what you do?

• 1:05:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, Kyle Usecheck, fullback for the uh San Francisco Forty Niners.

• 1:05:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, you happen to go to Harvard.

• 1:05:39Speaker 05

  Yep. Don't use that against me.

• 1:05:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  I won't use that against you. Uh how many Harvard um alum are in the NFL these days, you know?

• 1:05:48Speaker 05

  Be surprised. Um I think we have somewhere in around like twelve maybe.

• 1:05:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Really? Yeah.

• 1:05:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's a good amount.

• 1:05:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um all right. So your career, you started Baltimore, correct? First four years Baltimore, then one year.

• 1:06:00Speaker 05

  Four years Baltimore, this is my second year.

• 1:06:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, then here. Okay. All right. So you came in just in time for all the fun here, right? So you were coming onto a team that had gone two and fourteen the year before.

• 1:06:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  And then last year was the dawn of a new era.

• 1:06:14Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:06:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um just walk me through your process last year with COVID nine and so on.

• 1:06:21Speaker 05

  Um I mean, it was it was an interesting deal. Uh went into free agency and you know, that's an interesting thing in itself. Just not exactly knowing where you're gonna be um. You know, I had just got engaged, so I was trying to figure out, you know.

• 1:06:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Congratulations.

• 1:06:39Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:06:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  You're married by now, I assume.

• 1:06:40Speaker 05

  Not yet, actually.

• 1:06:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wow, that's a long engagement.

• 1:06:42Speaker 05

  We got a, we got a date set for uh, uh, this next summer.

• 1:06:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Offseason.

• 1:06:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Speaker 05

  Um, but you know, just, you know, working with that, having, you know, to uh, figure out where she's gonna be coming with me and, um, but I mean, everything worked out great when uh, you know, my agent went to Combine, he's talking with a lot of different teams, and uh, got a sense that San Francisco was really interested, and the idea of coming out to California, uh, the idea of playing for Kyle Shanahan, uh, were two really, uh, great ideas to me, playing for John Lynch, a former player.

• 1:07:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you know any, did you know much about them, other than what you, you know, kind?

• 1:07:22Speaker 05

  I knew a lot about Kyle, um, because when I was in Baltimore, there was rumors that, uh, we were gonna hire him as an offensive coordinator.

• 1:07:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:30Speaker 05

  And he's kind of from that Gary Kubiak, uh, tree.

• 1:07:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:33Speaker 05

  And that offense fits me very well, and I had a great year when Kubiak was my offense coordinator, so I was excited about that. Um, definitely knew who John Lynch was, remembered him as a player, and just liked the idea of a former player running the organization.

• 1:07:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:49Speaker 05

  I thought that was really cool.

• 1:07:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. So then, when they, when you first heard that they were interested in you, did you, did you have pause, um, about the Niners, considering that they'd had some rough years?

• 1:07:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, that was something I definitely had to consider, um, was coming to a team, you know, that, you know, didn't really have a ton of success, but, um, I tried to kind of spin it in my head to think about it as, like, how cool would it be to be part of that, that first class, almost, that turns it around? You know, it's almost like going to that college and being part of the first recruiting class for that head coach, that turns the whole thing around, and uh, that's how I kind of looked at it here, we were kind of Kyle's first free agent class that, you know, hopefully you can get this thing turned around.

• 1:08:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  And then, obviously, it didn't turn around, at least in the beginning, so what, what, what, I mean, I look at it now collectively as oh and nine, but obviously, it's one week at a time, and I'm guessing it gets a little bit more frustrating every week. What was, what was going on for you then?

• 1:08:48Speaker 05

  Definitely super frustrating, uh, not how we expected things to start, but you'd be surprised just how positive things stayed around here. It was pretty incredible, um. Not something that I was used to experiencing in Baltimore. If, you know, we lost a couple of games in a row. I mean, things were getting crazy in the facility and people were walking on eggshells.

• 1:09:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  You got a hard on charge. What do you expect?

• 1:09:12Speaker 05

  Exactly. But nobody was walking on eggshells here. We were still very confident that we were moving in the right direction. And, you know, every week Kyle would pull up some clips to show like we're making progress. I swear, guys. Just stick to it and it's gonna turn around. And, uh, once it did, man, it made it super rewarding.

• 1:09:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  You know, we've heard exactly the same thing from everyone, from Jed to players, et cetera, which is that you'd never know from the locker room that it was an 0-9 team. And I'm just curious, I guess, kinda hooking up the two things you said about your brain training and Kyle showing you clips of things that are going well. Was that a kind of like, um, do you think he was practicing some kind of positive psychology that worked? Because it, I mean, the reality was you were 0-9 and yet people seemed to think that success was coming still.

• 1:10:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, you don't, so you don't see the positivity in like our record. We gotta find it somewhere else. So he did a great job of showing us those clips and showing us, you know, just exactly what you're doing well.

• 1:10:19Speaker 05

  You know, as a football player, if you're never getting, or at least the way I work, if I'm never getting any positive feedback, I mean, that makes things really tough. So for him to do that, I know that really struck home with me to, you know, he shows me a clip from the game, a clip from practice that week where I did something really well. And he points it out. I'm like, okay, I'm doing something right and it motivates you.

• 1:10:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  I have to say, that just sounds like exactly the opposite of what laypeople think about football coaches. We think like you could have a pretty good game and then they call you and show you this is the block you missed and so on.

• 1:10:51Speaker 05

  That definitely exists. And I've definitely been a part of that too. But I almost feel like it's more of a kind of a new age thinking of this more positive feedback. And I know it definitely resonates with me. You know, I've never gotten much from a coach that's just screaming at me and telling me how terrible I am. I don't know. That just doesn't work for me. I like a guy that. Points out when I do something incorrectly, but he also rewards me when I'm doing something the right way.

• 1:11:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, that's interesting. So are there any other examples you can get? Because that's the best example we've heard of how the positivity kind of happened, which is him showing you the cuts of you doing good stuff. Can you think of any other examples?

• 1:11:38Speaker 05

  I mean, I just, I just think about my times like with the Ravens when things weren't going well. You just, there was just a mood in the, in the building. You know, when you're passing coaches in the, in the hallway, like you're trying to keep it short. You're not trying to make a ton of eye contact. You just want to get moving and get through your day where here it just, it really wasn't like that. You, you, you saw your physician coach and it was easy to still go talk to him. You didn't feel awkward, you know, that I didn't get any sense of that.

• 1:12:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  What are your expectations for this year?

• 1:12:14Speaker 05

  I got high expectations and I expect to win. I think you can already feel it just from, you know, the two practices that we've had so far that things feel a lot different than they did last year. There's a lot more confidence. There's a, on the offensive side, there's definitely a better understanding of the offense as a whole, you know, because we've been in it for a year.

• 1:12:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Was it a lot of relearning for you? Was it a system that took a lot of, a lot of work?

• 1:12:40Speaker 05

  Well, I, I played in a system that was similar, but I mean, Kyle takes everything to a whole nother level. So there, there was a lot of learning new stuff. And I mean, for anybody, when you're learning something new, you just, you don't react quite as fast. You know, there's just that millisecond of hesitation and you'd be surprised what a huge difference that can make.

• 1:13:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  So can you help me reconcile this? Here's what I don't understand. I know that NFL offenses are super complex, right? That laypeople, we, we literally wouldn't even understand the terminology in the play call, right? At all. And that you got 11 guys who all A, understand it, B, then execute it at the same time at lightning speed. Okay. So we know how hard that is. But then we also see that Jimmy Garoppolo comes in. And after like ten days, it's basically running that offense.

• 1:13:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  And winning is five games in a row. How do you explain that?

• 1:13:32Speaker 05

  That's a great question. I think you really gotta give Jimmy a lot of credit. Uh, I think he did such a good job of, um, I mean, he put in serious time after practice with, uh, with the coaches by himself. I mean, he was here all night just trying to learn this playbook. Um, and I think he also got to attribute the fact that he was able to, uh, extend plays. He's able to get the ball out quickly. And, you know, people always ask, what was the difference in our offense? Before Jimmy and once Jimmy came along and I think the difference was we were converting on third down. When you convert on third down, you get to run more plays. When you run more plays, you get to dive deeper into your playbook

• 1:14:15Speaker 05

  and into your, uh, game plan of that week. And that's when you get to really start to exploit the defense and all that work you put in this week where, okay, we saw they were doing this, like, and we're gonna take advantage of that. Well, when you're three and out, you can't really set things up, you know? Um, but when you're actually moving the ball and getting first downs, you start to set things up and things really start to come together.

• 1:14:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Um, you had a concussion last year. You said, was it during a game or a practice?

• 1:14:42Speaker 05

  During game.

• 1:14:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  What happened?

• 1:14:44Speaker 05

  Um, so we were playing the, uh, LA Rams. It was a Thursday night game. I think it was week three. And we were on the goal line and just running a lead play and smacked my head with their linebacker. And just had a really, it was really weird. I remember it's, it like sounded like, uh, like I remember hearing a noise in my head. It was almost like a, like a bell, like just ringing. I felt, I remember feeling like a, uh, I said a tuning fork, like for a guitar or something. It was weirdest feeling.

• 1:15:20Speaker 05

  Right after that play, you know, I'm pretty shook up, but we got back up to the line very quickly. We were trying to get another play in. And I remember I'm s- I'm sitting in the huddle and I'm like, I like, I'm definitely messed up. But like, do I sit down and like wait for the trainer? Or do I, let's just run this next play and then I'll figure it out after that. Well, it all happened so quickly. I stayed in and I ran the next play. And it was the worst decision. Um, same thing, ran into the linebacker and that one, you know, finally put me out. Where I was, you know, unconscious for a second and then had to, you know, get taken in by the trainers and all that kind of stuff.

• 1:15:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wow. You regret, it sounds like you regret the decision.

• 1:16:00Speaker 05

  The second play, definitely, yeah. I, um, I should, I should have taken myself out, but things happen so quickly. And, you know, a little bit of-

• 1:16:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, how much of it is also just, you know, macho?

• 1:16:10Speaker 05

  There's a little bit of pride in there, which is stupid because there shouldn't be, like, you know, there's no-

• 1:16:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's changing, I gather, in the NFL?

• 1:16:17Speaker 05

  It definitely is changing. Like, there's no shame in like taking yourself out in that situation. Like, your brain is way too important for this kind of stuff. And I think, I think guys are starting to understand that a lot more. But it's still, I think, so ingrained in all of us that there's a little bit of that pride. That still, you know, keeps guys in there maybe a play or two longer.

• 1:16:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Had you had, uh, concussions previously?

• 1:16:38Speaker 05

  Nothing officially registered. Definitely, I'm, I'm sure I had.

• 1:16:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Speaker 05

  You know, but nothing, uh, that I had actually been-

• 1:16:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um, John Urschel, who we've had on the show actually a couple of times.

• 1:16:48Speaker 05

  Oh, really?

• 1:16:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Really, I, I love him. I mean, he's just such an interest, nice guy, interesting guy. So, you know, his decision to retire, I think was misunderstood. It was, it was more complicated than, than just, you know, I saw the report.

• 1:17:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  He'd had a concussion. I think he got in practice when he was with the Ravens.

• 1:17:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:17:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um, I'm just curious, you know, whether his decision, whether that made you think about anything differently yourself?

• 1:17:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. You know, I've, I would never take it to the point, or at least I don't think I would retire. Unless, you know, I had started to rack up a lot, you know, a lot of concussions that's became a problem. But, um- You know, I it's just I I love the game too much that I don't think I could step away from it early. And you know, so that I don't run into that situation. That's why I'm trying to do some of these different things to really. Um, strengthen the brain and just get a better understanding of it. And you know, all those sort of things.

• 1:17:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you meditate or have you ever?

• 1:17:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:17:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Does it have you noticed any effect from that as well?

• 1:17:49Speaker 05

  I have. Um, I actually I enjoy that and I mean, it's nothing extensive. It's you know, it's maybe six to 10 minutes here. Um, you know, I I try to do it at.

• 1:17:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Twice a you try twice, twice a day or?

• 1:18:01Speaker 05

  Uh, usually just once before I usually do it before I go to bed.

• 1:18:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:05Speaker 05

  Um, at the very least, I I try to do it um, the night before games, but I I I do a pretty good job of it.

• 1:18:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Um, tell us something about being a professional athlete or more specifically, uh, you know, an NFL fullback. That you think most people just have no concept of or wouldn't understand or maybe appreciate maybe.

• 1:18:27Speaker 05

  I think a lot of people, um. I don't think they understand the amount of time that's put in outside of Sunday. You know, I think people, a lot of people, they know we practice, they know uh, we work out, but I don't think they realize that like. Uh, during our phase two of our off season program, we're only blocked for four hours. I'm here for eight, nine hours.

• 1:18:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right.

• 1:18:50Speaker 05

  You know, like we're only required to be here for that for, but I don't think people realize just how much time is really spent in this facility.

• 1:18:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Have you been on teams where most guys would only be there for the minimum?

• 1:19:03Speaker 05

  Uh, I want Baltimore is pretty good, like most of the guys were putting in that extra time, but I I would still say like it doesn't really compare to to here. I think they do such a good job of uh, there there's so much available for us here.

• 1:19:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Like what?

• 1:19:18Speaker 05

  I mean, as far as our our nutrition is like off the chain, it's it's incredible. Um, there's so much information available there. Uh, I mean, the food is great. So, I mean, I do a lot with our dietitian where. Um, I mean, right now we're doing like a uh, it's another kind of a brain study. We're doing um. DHA supplement uh, test.

• 1:19:44Speaker 05

  But you know, like I have that available. I have the brain test available. Um, our training room is, or our medical staff is so great about, I can go in there and ask for anything. I can get cupping, I can get grassed in, I can get acupuncture, I can just get a massage flush. Uh, if I need it, you know, hot tub, coal, hot tub, coal tub, sauna, uh, steam room. We got the weight room is always available. We got cryotherapy there.

• 1:20:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's cryotherapy?

• 1:20:13Speaker 05

  Uh, it's the, it's a chamber that they pump, uh, I think it's nitrogen gas and they're super cold.

• 1:20:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:20Speaker 05

  And you're in there for like three minutes and drops your body tempers, charge super low.

• 1:20:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  So tell us, um, uh, let me just ask you about a, a, a series of, um, give me like what you're doing Monday at 10 a.m. Typically during game, during the season.

• 1:20:34Speaker 05

  During the season, uh, so that's Mondays, uh, are like body maintenance every, right?

• 1:20:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Tuesdays your off day here then?

• 1:20:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:20:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is that right?

• 1:20:45Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, okay. So, um, Monday at 10 a.m. probably getting a massage.

• 1:20:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. Uh, Friday at noon?

• 1:20:53Speaker 05

  Friday at noon, we're on the field.

• 1:20:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. Um, Sunday, let's say 8 a.m. with a 1 p.m. game.

• 1:20:59Speaker 05

  Um, probably starting to get up and, uh, get ready for breakfast.

• 1:21:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. At the team hotel?

• 1:21:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:21:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, yeah. Then what about Sunday night, let's say, uh?

• 1:21:07Speaker 05

  Sunday night after the game?

• 1:21:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, after the game.

• 1:21:09Speaker 05

  Um, you know, it depends if somebody's in town for the game. Usually there is somebody, so we're probably grabbing dinner.

• 1:21:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Gotcha.

• 1:21:16Speaker 05

  Somewhere with, uh, you know, a friend or family that's visiting.

• 1:21:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, right. Uh, thanks. It was great to talk to you.

• 1:21:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, great talking to you guys too.

• 1:21:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Thanks to Kyle Usecheck, Mike McGlinchey, Joe Staley, and Jimmy Garoppolo for taking the time to sit down with us. And special thanks to Bob Lang, VP of Communications for the 49ers, who made all these 49ers interviews happen. If you haven't already, be sure to listen to our Freakonomics Radio, episode number 350, About the 49ers. It's one of our regular weekly episodes that are released every Wednesday at 11 p.m. Eastern Time. And you can find more full interviews like these here on Stitcher Premium. Let us know what you think. You can find Freakonomics Radio on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, or email us at [email protected].

• 1:22:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Dubner Productions. Our staff includes Alison Kreglo, Greg Rippon, Greg Rosalsky, Alvin Melathe, Harry Huggins, Zach Lepinski, and Andy Meisenheimer. Our Hidden Side of Sports series was produced by Andres Kelto and Derek John. The music you hear throughout our episodes was composed by Luis Guerra. Our show can also be heard on NPR stations across the country. Check your local station for the schedule, as well as on Sirius XM, Spotify, and even your better airlines.

• 1:22:36Speaker 06

  Stitcher.

• 1:22:42Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:23:15Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:23:46Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:24:23Speaker 06

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