FULL INTERVIEW: Ben Thompson on Why Anthropic is Wrong

This is our full interview with Ben Thompson, recorded live on TBPN. We discuss his essay on Anthropic, why AI is colliding with hard questions about state power, surveillance, and military leverage, whether private labs can realistically defy governments when AI becomes a true source of geopolitical power, and how trade offs around Taiwan, chips, and democratic accountability could shape the next phase of the AI era far more than abstract debates about safety in the lab. TBPN is a live tech talk show hosted by John Coogan and Jordi Hays, streaming weekdays from 11–2 PT on X and YouTube, with full episodes posted to podcast platforms immediately after. Described by The New York Times as “Silicon Valley’s newest obsession,” TBPN has recently featured Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Mark Cuban, and Satya Nadella. Sign up for TBPN’s daily newsletter at TBPN.com TBPN.com is made possible by: Ramp - https://Ramp.com AppLovin - https://axon.ai Cisco - https://www.cisco.com Cognition - https://cognition.ai Console - https://console.com CrowdStrike - https://crowdstrike.com ElevenLabs - https://elevenlabs.io Figma - https://figma.com Fin - https://fin.ai Gemini - https://gemini.google.com Graphite - https://graphite.com Gusto - https://gusto.com/tbpn Kalshi - https://kalshi.com Labelbox - https://labelbox.com Lambda - https://lambda.ai Linear - https://linear.app MongoDB - https://mongodb.com NYSE - https://nyse.com Okta - https://www.okta.com Phantom - https://phantom.com/cash Plaid - https://plaid.com Public - https://public.com Railway - https://railway.com Ramp - https://ramp.com Restream - https://restream.io Sentry - https://sentry.io Shopify - https://shopify.com Turbopuffer - https://turbopuffer.com Vanta - https://vanta.com Vibe - https://vibe.co Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  We have Ben Thompson in the Restream waiting room from Surtakari. Welcome to the show, Ben. How are you doing?

• 0:06Ben Thompson?

  I'm good. Hopefully I have the right microphone turned on this time.

• 0:09John Coogan?

  You do, and it sounds fantastic. Thank you so much for joining on short notice. Thank you for writing Anthropic and Alignment. It is a fantastic piece that I think covers all of my questions, but I want to start with, like, just how did you process the weekend? How did you get to this particular place? And then, like, what is your key thesis with Anthropic and Alignment?

• 0:32Ben Thompson?

  I mean, this is one of those ones, I don't know if it's good or bad, that it came out sort of at the end of the week, so I had a lot of time to think about it. Ultimately, I think it was good, because I'm not sure anyone very, as explicitly made the point I did.

• 0:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 0:48Ben Thompson?

  And maybe it was bad, because I feel there's a lot of, like, caveats, maybe in retrospect I should have put in the article, that would have addressed a lot of the points that people are upset about.

• 0:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 0:58Ben Thompson?

  Basically, zooming out, this was not a normative article, where I'm saying what's happening is good or bad. And that's really the one caveat I really wish I would have put on there. I mean, I'm being out there accused of, like, a Neil Fittal, like, the full-throated fascist endorsement of fascism, or something like that. And it's like, relax, okay? Can I get some credit for the last X number of years? Basically, the, and there is a deep-rooted concern that I've had for a long time about, and I'm now hesitant to even use sort of EA as a term, because it's kind of now politicized,

• 1:37Ben Thompson?

  thanks to the events of the last week. But a failure to grapple with a world of guns is basically the long and short of it. And I actually think Aliza has been the one guy who's been honest about this, where he wrote that Time article about potentially bombing data centers someday. And that's actually a point worth bringing up, which is, all this stuff is right now in the digital realm, with robotics and potential other applications, and it's obviously being used for military operations, it's crossing over into the physical realm. But if AI is as powerful as people say it's going to be, then there are going to be real-world reactions to that. And if we're going to analogize it to nuclear weapons,

• 2:22Ben Thompson?

  as Dario Amade has done repeatedly... You have to think through what's, what would happen in a world where a private company developed nuclear weapons? What would the government's response be? And that's not to say that the government response in that case is good or bad. Or does it follow sort of constitutional principles or whatever it might be? Obviously, I want them to. On the surveillance point, I've been concerned about the application of computers to our surveillance laws for years. Like, so many things in our society assumed a certain level of friction in doing things

• 3:03Ben Thompson?

  that computers already obviated and AI is gonna just do that on steroids. I do think we need new laws. I think all this stuff is, is correct. And I think the idea that AI being applied to these commercially purchased data sets, for example, is a huge problem that I don't want to happen. The concern I have is that if this technology is as powerful as it is on pace to be, unilaterally imposing restrictions, even if those restrictions are good, isn't just an issue as far as who rules us, the democracy issue, that sort of Palmer Lucky, I think,

• 3:48Ben Thompson?

  very eloquently raised. It's inviting very bad outcomes for those asserting that in general. And I feel there's been a lack of awareness of this. That's why I brought up the Taiwan-China thing. This has been a frustration I've had with Anthropic generally. They talk about, you know, Amadeus has been very outspoken in terms of opposing selling chips to China for, in a narrow, you know, aspect, very, very good reasons. My pushback has always been...

• 4:23Ben Thompson?

  What happens if we get super powerful AI and China doesn't? What are they going to do?

• 4:29John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 4:30Ben Thompson?

  The optimal thing would be to just bomb TSMC out of existence because suddenly that becomes optimal even with all the costs that that that does. And then what? Then what are we going to do? Like, we're entering this, like, I don't like getting into political posts. It's not fun at all. I've, I've, I'm not having fun with this. It's not enjoyable. I could promise you this.

• 4:52John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:52Ben Thompson?

  And some people are like, well, you should have just made the post private. I'm like, no, I actually, I really want Anthropic and people associated with this to read this because

• 5:03Ben Thompson?

  people have theorized for a while about what's going to happen as AI becomes more powerful. And now it's starting to happen for real. And I've, I guess over the weekend, part of it was just, I felt compelled to say this and girding myself to do so. And even then, I still wasn't, I haven't, I haven't waited in this for a while and it's, it's no fun, but it is what it is.

• 5:27John Coogan?

  Can you unpack a little bit more of that, that tweet that you posted where you did the find on the Dario article for Taiwan and saw that wasn't mentioned?

• 5:37Ben Thompson?

  Oh, I mean, I've just kind of, I've sort of grieved about this in general. I, I think that.

• 5:41John Coogan?

  So do you just think he should be, he should be talking about the Taiwan issue more deliberately? He should be messaging that? Like, why is it important that, uh, why is it, why is it significant that he doesn't mention Taiwan?

• 5:53Ben Thompson?

  Well, oh, I think the position about not selling chips to China is a totally legitimate one. I understand the argument. I could make that argument if I needed to. Like, uh, I have advocated the opposite, that number one, not only should we, should we be selling chips to China? And a generation or two behind, which has always been sort of our standard practice with chips. We should also be allowing Chinese companies to fab with TSMC. That is a restriction that has come down. Now, these Huawei chips are somehow manufactured by TSMC. Let's, let's not look too closely at it, but we should explicitly be allowing it.

• 6:32John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 6:32Ben Thompson?

  And the reason for that is I think it is a safer equilibrium to have China dependent on Taiwan than to try to cut them off from Taiwan.

• 6:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:44Ben Thompson?

  While we are dependent on Taiwan. Taiwan is 70 miles off the coast of China. It's not an ideal. Position in the world for us to have a dependency on it and China to not have a dependency on it. Yeah. So this, and this is the problem. All this stuff has, everything going forward has massive trade offs. Yeah. The implication of letting China fab with TSMC or the implication of letting them buy Nvidia chips is that they gain these incredibly powerful AI capabilities that is driving this entire debate. That is in a vacuum, not a good thing, but nothing's in a vacuum. Yeah. Everything is a trade off. And in that specific area, I think that just

• 7:30Ben Thompson?

  it's repeatedly, again and again, being absolutist about the chip issue. When I am frustrated to not see any public comment about the, that's not quite fair. He has made comments about, oh yeah, that would slow down sort of the adoption of AI. The long run of Taiwan got, got bombed. I'm like, that's, in my mind, that's an insufficient consideration of the possibility of Taiwan getting bombed. Now again, I'm biased in that regard. I lived there for, for nearly two decades. But it's just the, the reason I brought it up in this context is if AI is what it is, the people with guns are going to want to have a say. Yeah. Whether that be domestically, whether that be internationally, that might be in the context of the US government just taking it,

• 8:15Ben Thompson?

  trying to kill your company because they feel you're not cooperating. Or it might be the context of China deciding it has to act because the US is becoming too powerful. Hmm. Because the, you know, and um, it's not a fun debate. It, it, it does, I do think the nuclear angle is a good one. It has echoes of the proliferation, question of mutual assured destruction, all those sorts of things. And that's just going to be the reality of the debate going forward. And again, it's not very fun, but I think it's also irresponsible to sort of run away from it.

• 8:48Jordi Hays?

  How much attention or what kind of factor do you think the information asymmetry between the Department of War and Anthropic played last week? It felt like in hindsight, Department of War knows they're headed into a major, what is now looking like a drawn out conflict. Anthropic's sitting there thinking, hey, we have this arbitrary deadline. Why do we need to renegotiate this now? And then if, going off of Emile Michael's timeline, it sounds like they were still in the final hour trying to make a deal happen. And according to Emile, Dario was in a meeting and was busy and wasn't really respecting

• 9:30Jordi Hays?

  the deadline, which maybe he felt was kind of artificial. But in hindsight, now it looks like it was a significant, because the Department of War was, you know, taking the country into a conflict and wanted to know, hey, can we lean on one of our AI partners?

• 9:50Ben Thompson?

  I don't know. I mean, I think that seems pretty arbitrary to have cut, I mean, I'm hesitant to speculate. I don't know what was going on. I don't know the angles. I think, and that's why I didn't sort of delve too deeply into it. And I also think some of the specifics, like this supply chain risk, probably overbroad.

• 10:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 10:12Ben Thompson?

  And almost certainly, the way it was stated in the tweet is definitely overbroad, if you actually go and read the statute. I think the goal that I was, and again, this is where I wish I had sort of put more caveats to say, like, I'm not actually talking about all that stuff. I don't really care. I do care, but that's not the point of this article. The point of this article is, there's all this talk about alignment. That's why I put that in the headline. And... On one hand, alignment is aligning AI with humanity generally. But for the foreseeable future, and you could have a philosophical argument about the long-term viability of nation-states in the age of the internet, much less the age of AI and whatever that might be.

• 10:56Ben Thompson?

  That certainly is, you know, a more pressing conversation than probably ever before. Anthropic exists in the context of the United States. And that's why I put that quote, "You may not be interested in politics, but politics has an interest in you." What is politics? War by other means. You might not be interested in that. It is going to have an interest in you. And my, there's a, like I said, a certain longstanding frustration of not fully grappling with that fact, having dorm room theoretical arguments about AGI. You go back to that post over Christmas about like AGI in like 100 years and no one having any jobs

• 11:38Ben Thompson?

  or being worthless or pointless or whatever, which included some implicit assumptions around property rights existing in 150 years as they exist today. Newsflash, if that happens, property rights as they exist today are going away. All these rights, and this is a philosophical argument. That's why I started with the international law concept. All these rights, all these laws are subject to the agreement of those governed by them to follow them. And the final say is those who successfully inflict violence. And again, this isn't fun to think about. It's not pleasant. You would like to assume we operate in a world of laws that everyone follows them and goes by them.

• 12:23Ben Thompson?

  But to the extent AI is as impactful and powerful as it is, the more these questions, fundamental questions that we thought have been settled for hundreds of years, if not thousands of years, are going to be raised. And this is just the first of several episodes where I think that's going to happen.

• 12:40John Coogan?

  I grew up in sort of like post-Cold War, no duck and cover. Didn't have a lot of fear of nuclear Armageddon, but... Dario Amadei is, you know, a fan of this book, the making of the nuclear bomb. And it seemed like he sort of predicted that if AI becomes super powerful, the US might take a similar approach that they did with regulation of nuclear weapons. And as I was thinking about that, I feel sort of good about the way nuclear weapons are regulated. Like, I feel like we got the good ending and we haven't had nuclear weapons drop in 70 years. And it seems like things are going well there, as well as they can, considering that there's

• 13:25John Coogan?

  this amazing, or, you know, tremendous, like, dangerous technology that exists. But it hasn't been deployed. It hasn't actually, you know, bombed anyone. But how do you think he's processing that book? How do you think we should be processing that idea of the government running the same playbook that they did with nuclear weapons?

• 13:48Ben Thompson?

  It's pretty interesting. I mean, on one hand, just from sort of a physical perspective, dealing with weights and software is very different than dealing with fissible material. Or, I guess, the super bombs are like, they're actually like fusion devices, right? That is trackable, it is interceptable, you know when Iran, to take a pertinent example, is trying to build enrichment facilities. All of which makes the problem easier to solve.

• 14:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:19Ben Thompson?

  So that's difference number one. Difference number two, and I really wish I would, I had this included and I cut it so that the article be tighter, but there is a very interesting point in technological history, which was the early days of Intel. And Bob Noyce made the decision that we will sell to the government, but we're not going to design chips for the government. And the distinction there was you had guaranteed orders, which was great. The government would take your IP and there was, and in his mind, the more important thing is there was limited volume. And the way that he foresaw correctly that this was going to be a very upfront, capital intensive process of designing chips, to design them, if you have the equipment, all

• 15:04Ben Thompson?

  of which is in the billions of dollars today, back then was in the tens of millions and hundreds of millions. Is you need to find the largest possible market, which was the consumer slash business market. You design for that, that will accelerate your improvement and your capability so much that you will end up having better devices than the government could have ever requested or made for itself. Yeah. That is at stake on steroids with AI. Yeah. People like, I was talking to someone, they're like, why doesn't the government just have, just get someone to make their own model? It's like, because it's caught, like, you, you talk about government contracts, we're like, single digit billions. We're talking about for the, the amount that's going into CapEx, the cost of these models.

• 15:46Ben Thompson?

  We're talking hundreds of mil-, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars for the models and hundreds of billions of dollars, approaching a trillion dollars a year in CapEx. That is only sustainable and viable if you're selling to everyone. And, but that introduces the entire new dynamics where the government built nuclear. It started there and it started with a lot of assumptions because it was a government program. We are necessarily for economic reasons, because of all the upfront costs entailed, starting with private companies of which the government is one of many customers. And

• 16:23Ben Thompson?

  that introduces the assumption that, well, it's a private company with private property rights and all those sorts of things. All which I want to be true. Again, I don't like how this is going down at all. The point here is to say, there's a good reason why it's not going down that way. And there needs to be cognizance that even though these is a private company that is building the model, general purpose and for very good reasons, wants to put restrictions. Again, I think the, the surveillance one is a very powerful argument that I agree with. The problem is that you just need to be aware of, yes, the government is a small customer.

• 17:05Ben Thompson?

  The government is also the entity, again, not to be blunt, with guns. Like they, they, you know, like, why do I pay taxes? Or because the law says to pay taxes? Yep. No, at the end of the day, I pay taxes because, you know, if you really want it to still down, if I don't, someone with guns will come to my house and throw me in jail, right? Like, like, we don't think about that, but at the end of the day, where do these assumptions and laws and rights flow from? And as long as that is still the case, that it needs to be a decision-making factor for these companies.

• 17:36John Coogan?

  How do you think this plays out for Anthropic? It's such a small contract, but it's so important in the zeitgeist. There's a lot of people that are rallying around Anthropic because of this. There's a lot of people that are pulling away from Anthropic because of this. It feels like there is a business to be built that doesn't work with the government, but delivers coding models and knowledge retrieval systems and a whole bunch of really valuable products and technology, and it winds up being fine. But at the same time, you don't want this hairy relationship with the government adversarial to go on for a long time.

• 18:13Ben Thompson?

  I would like them to sell to the government, now like Congress, to pass a law addressing these digital surveillance issues.

• 18:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:21Ben Thompson?

  And a lot of people are like, that's unrealistic, which I'm amenable to. But at the end of the day, if you don't have its legal or not legal as your guiding standard, the only alternative is someone has to decide. And the implication of that not being a sufficient justification is that means a private executive is deciding.

• 18:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:46Ben Thompson?

  And if AI is what it is, I think that's going to be, I use this word intolerable. I didn't mean intolerable to me. I meant intolerable to those with power to have a private executive making those decisions or not. And if you think about if power, if we're going to have this very sort of brute analysis, that power flows from, or laws flow from power. AI is a source of power.

• 19:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:14Ben Thompson?

  So it's not just that, and I think this is where the supply chain, again, which I'm not endorsing, but I think that's where the motivation is coming from. The goal isn't to find, we just won't use Anthropic. I do think the goal is to hurt Anthropic.

• 19:29John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:30Ben Thompson?

  And if you're not going to be subservient to us, you're not going to be allowed to build a power base, period.

• 19:37John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 19:38Ben Thompson?

  And again, I'm not endorsing all this.

• 19:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:41Ben Thompson?

  It's just a matter of, it's not a surprise this is happening.

• 19:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:46Ben Thompson?

  And it needs to be just, is a real risk factor, a real, that has to be considered in all these decisions.

• 19:55John Coogan?

  Putting on my Dario hat, I'm thinking about a different way to achieve the goals with maybe less acrimony and I threw out this idea that maybe the better solution is like work with the government but then lobby for a surveillance act and actually try and run a pack.

• 20:16Ben Thompson?

  Yeah, I mean, I wish the White House would come out and say, yeah, there's a digital surveillance problem, let's work on a bit. Like, I don't, I, I, probably another regret I have is sort of putting this all on Anthropic. That was sort of the angle I was concerned about. And that left me, I think, fairly open to the critique that this is just like defending the White House's approach. And that was, again, that was, I was trying to be a higher level, that's saying, look, this is what's gonna happen. But yeah, the, the, I think there should be a way to find a middle ground here.

• 20:45John Coogan?

  I'm just thinking of like, from the perspective of like, the, if the White House is like this immutable thing, and that you are, you know, involved in Anthropic, like, like, one advice would be, hey, okay, instead of going in and having this confrontation with the government directly, go and start a political action committee that lobbies for change in the way that you want through the democratic process.

• 21:09Ben Thompson?

  Yes, that is the ideal process. I understand why people are frustrated and skeptical about this. I used to have this debate a lot in the context of antitrust and aggregators. And one of my sort of theses about the aggregators and antitrust is that the, the antitrust laws are fundamentally unsuited to dealing with aggregators. Because antitrust law has historically been about control of supply and the power of aggregators flows from control of demand. And so you end up with all these solutions that I call pushing on a string. You're just trying to get people to change how they behave, and that doesn't work very well. Like, like, Google has always been right. Competition has always been just a click away. The problem is people aren't clicking. And like, like, so, so the solutions focused on the supply

• 21:54Ben Thompson?

  angle doesn't work in a world where the supply is there, just no one's choosing it. And therefore, my prescription is you actually need to pass new laws, not try to retrofit these old laws to this new use case where they don't work. And the reaction is always, that's impossible, we can't pass new laws. And... Okay, but realize the implications of what of what you're saying. I mean, I saw a tweet, I again, I didn't like it, so I lost it forever. One of the most infuriating things in the world. But someone was like, I would definitely rather have Dario Amadei make these decisions than. And he, and to this tweeter's credit, he wasn't limiting it to Trump. Because to me, this isn't a Trump issue. This is a any politician issue.

• 22:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 22:38Ben Thompson?

  He said, I would rather have Amadei making these decisions than whoever comes out of our screwed up democratic process.

• 22:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 22:43Ben Thompson?

  And points for the honesty, because that's the actual choice that is that is being put forward.

• 22:50John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 22:50Ben Thompson?

  And you could say Congress isn't going to do anything, therefore Amadei should. Just appreciate that is giving up on the democratic process and saying we should have unelected, unaccountable individuals making weighty decisions. And again, I understand the sentiment. It's hard to imagine Congress passing laws about anything.

• 23:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:14Ben Thompson?

  But just realize that's like, that implication is is quite fraught.

• 23:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's a huge change from, I mean, I just spawned in and believe in democracy and then understand it and study economics and and just have reinforced my belief in the American project throughout my entire career. And now it really is people discussing an entirely different world of governance, which is has been not something people have talked about publicly for a very long time, but it is here for sure.

• 23:44Ben Thompson?

  Right, and and they always come in on these Trojan horses that are eminently defensible. Again, I'm with Anthropic on the digital surveillance point. I've been, I've been concerned about it for years, been writing about it for ages. And it's similar, it it there is an analogy to the to the monopoly. Like you have all these laws that assume someone has to actually physically go somewhere and tap into a phone line.

• 24:06John Coogan?

  No.

• 24:07Ben Thompson?

  But if you can do it with computers at scale, like suddenly you you had all these assumptions that limited what the government could do that magically disappear, not because the law changed, but because we got computers that could do the job of an individual at scale infinitely. And AI again is going to let the idea that the NSA, by the way, this is my sort of like, I had to admit this in the article.

• 24:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:31Ben Thompson?

  I was so confused why the Pentagon was so obsessed with domestic surveillance.

• 24:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:35Ben Thompson?

  I didn't realize the NSA was part of the Pentagon.

• 24:39Jordi Hays?

  John and I had the same moment.

• 24:40John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:41Ben Thompson?

  Yeah, you're sort of thought about it as like an independent agent like the CIA. But uh, but that that made a lot of this story make more sense. Right. No, exactly.

• 24:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, I feel like a lot of tech people are like reading the Fourth Amendment today and understanding like uh, some of these like pretty basic processes.

• 24:56Ben Thompson?

  Well, yeah, but like it's pretty like the loopholes are massive. Like, like I'm not denying it. Like, like, and it it it's similar to the chip thing with China. Like, my prescription for Anthropic to

• 25:10Ben Thompson?

  give in is to allow these massive loopholes to be exploited. And for the NSA to allegedly in the service of investigating foreign adversaries, but by, you know, the process, basically surveilling the domestic population, I think is bad. And the reality is, uh, the nature of trade offs is you're choosing between multiple bad options. And

• 25:41Ben Thompson?

  at some point, it's like, which team are you signing up for? They both suck. Choose one.

• 25:47John Coogan?

  What do you think of the uh, the the messaging around like the models themselves not being capable enough to be used in the context that the Department of War asked for? Because I felt like Dario was was sort of speaking for uh, all frontier labs. He said that like these technologies broadly are not suitable for these uh, missions just yet. I'm not sure that he has all of the information on the other side to know about the efficacy. He certainly understands his models and what's capable on the frontier.

• 26:17Ben Thompson?

  I mean, I think that, yeah, I would, I I mean, I would assume they're definitely not capable. That that I think that point is more of a precedent setting one. I think Anthropic's position is significantly weaker on that point. Like, at the end of the day, we either trust the military or not to make these sorts of decisions. That's why we have a military. And uh, and so I I have a harder time. And I think The digital surveillance point is so compelling for them because I think it may be my personal biases.

• 26:48John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 26:48Ben Thompson?

  I think it's a huge problem.

• 26:49John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:50Ben Thompson?

  Um, the, and you, this various anecdotes, again, I hate the reporting from these because you can tell like the leaks coming from which side for each of these.

• 26:59John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 26:59Ben Thompson?

  But you know, this idea that putting forward these hypothetical examples of like, oh, you could call us and we'll figure it out then. It's like, no, come on.

• 27:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:08Ben Thompson?

  Serious about this, like, like, so, yeah, I think that's a weak argument for them. So that's why I almost focused more on the digital surveillance one, just because I think it is a very compelling argument in favor of the anthropic position.

• 27:20John Coogan?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. Jordan, anything else?

• 27:23Jordi Hays?

  Oh, there's a lot more. What are you, what are you going to be tracking going forward? Obviously the stories.

• 27:28Ben Thompson?

  All my email?

• 27:30John Coogan?

  Yeah. Good luck. Stay strong.

• 27:33Ben Thompson?

  Uh, no, I mean, I.

• 27:37Ben Thompson?

  The open eye angle is obviously interesting. I didn't really get into OpenAI.

• 27:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:42Ben Thompson?

  Um, it's hard to parse exactly what's going on. It seems to me they have agreed to the, to the Pentagon that they will be, the Pentagon will be limited by lawful capabilities.

• 27:56John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 27:57Ben Thompson?

  And they're make their own judgments about weapon usage. And as I understand it, OpenAI is like, we will on our side be free to stop the model from doing digital surveillance.

• 28:08John Coogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:09Ben Thompson?

  Which sounds like you're in sort of a jailbreak competition. It's like, we're going to agree to have a jailbreak competition with the US government. Um, which I, again, it's an example of how fraught this is, that that's probably the good place to come down on. Now, there's obviously these dynamics of competing for the same talent base. Being in San Francisco, you know, the, this is part of, I think anthropics, anthropic has a local advantage.

• 28:37John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 28:38Ben Thompson?

  In that most people, I think in the industry are with them and they have a national PR problem in that I think a, a lot of folks outside of tech don't understand why tech companies always try to, or resist helping the US government.

• 28:53John Coogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:53Ben Thompson?

  And so it's, it's kind of an interesting dynamic where I think OpenAI is in step with the broader public and very much out of step with sort of their talent base in, in San Francisco. And so that's going to be very interesting to, to see how that plays out.

• 29:08John Coogan?

  Yeah. Uh, it's, it's remarkable that Google has stayed out of the fray given all the Project Maven background and stuff like they must be so happy and they're just like.

• 29:16Ben Thompson?

  Well, that's the other interesting thing is, uh, I, this is actually goes back to Google, I believe. Where Google had the project, I think this is right.

• 29:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 29:27Ben Thompson?

  But I, but I think Google had Project Maven, which their employees objected to.

• 29:31John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 29:32Ben Thompson?

  And therefore that went to AWS.

• 29:35John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 29:35Ben Thompson?

  And then I, some combination of, I think the Pentagon is using Anthropic because.

• 29:41John Coogan?

  They're on AWS. And AWS has a higher, higher Fed ramp designation.

• 29:45Ben Thompson?

  That's right. And so, and so that's why Anthropic was already allowed for classified content and OpenAI wasn't. Again, I don't know the extent.

• 29:52John Coogan?

  It was, I, I, I've studied Maven pretty closely. It's a wild story. I mean, the, it was similar like AI for the military, the same like killer robot, uh, fears. Uh, the actual, uh, uh, I mean, Google was a subcontractor on that project. And, uh, what they were actually exposing to the, uh, to the government was TensorFlow APIs that would run on Google hardware. And so they weren't actually writing any AI software, but they wanted to effectively like classify images from drones in the Middle East. See, that's a car, that's a house. And previously they had, uh, Air Force airmen just sitting there like clicking. And they were like, okay, we're going to automate that. Um.

• 30:32Ben Thompson?

  Right.

• 30:32John Coogan?

  But, uh, but it was still like scary, don't be evil, working with the government, military. And then there was a backlash, they pulled out, then eventually they went back in and, and had a new head of Google Cloud.

• 30:42Ben Thompson?

  Um, yeah, I mean, this, this is, you know, it's hard to, and I, I speak for myself personally. I obviously have the biased angle because of Taiwan. I have the biased angle where. I think there, you know, just in general, there is this very naive view of the world that doesn't understand why militaries are important and necessary. And I think Silicon Valley got itself in a lot of trouble by giving in to this naive mindset.

• 31:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:07Ben Thompson?

  That we have no duty to support the military. And there's this tension's been, so it's a tension's been brewing for years.

• 31:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:14Ben Thompson?

  Which is, are you?

• 31:17Ben Thompson?

  An American company, subject to American law, and even beyond law, just morally compelled to support the US military.

• 31:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:26Ben Thompson?

  Or not. And there's an equally American sort of idea of moral consciousness. I'm able to say no. That's why we have the First Amendment, right? This goes into the, can the government compel a company to do something? It goes back to some of the questions that happened, you know, with the first Trump administration. And, you know, I've been on both sides of this, like, which I

• 31:49Jordi Hays?

  And this is what Daria said in CBS interview. He said, "We are a private company. We can choose to sell or not sell whatever we want. There are other providers." He's already sort of like making this case.

• 31:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:00Ben Thompson?

  Which, again, is a case that I support.

• 32:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:06Ben Thompson?

  But the point here is, there's always the question with like a bubble or whatever, is it different this time?

• 32:12John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 32:13Ben Thompson?

  And I guess that's sort of the question I'm raising.

• 32:15John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 32:16Ben Thompson?

  Is AI actually applicable to every other technology that's come along?

• 32:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:20Ben Thompson?

  Or if it is the potential to be a source of power going forward, it's going to be dealt with as such?

• 32:28John Coogan?

  Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, last question, we'll let you go. How happy should Ted Sarandos be right now?

• 32:35Ben Thompson?

  I mean, I think he had the killer quote the last couple of days where I think someone was asking him, if this is such a jewel, and it's so rare, like, isn't it a problem that you're missing out on it?

• 32:49John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:50Ben Thompson?

  And he's like, well, have you seen the history of Time Warner? I think, sounds about right. I'm not sure how, the entity with all the debt that Paramount and Warner Brothers is going on. Uh, I think there's a bit where Netflix is always, in the very long run, been positioned, I think, to be the final buyer. Like, who else are content companies going to sell to?

• 33:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:10Ben Thompson?

  I feel like they sort of, I feel like they've been spooked by YouTube a little bit, and they felt a need to push forward.

• 33:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:17Ben Thompson?

  On that, bring the, bring the future forward. That was not allowed to happen, but that means their original plan, I think, is still in place. So, um, probably Probably pretty happy, all things considered. I'm gonna say.

• 33:30John Coogan?

  It's great. Well, I'm excited to get back to National Discovery and more anodyne topics.

• 33:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, remember it was on Cheeky Pike, you were talking about getting sucked into the social media.

• 33:42John Coogan?

  And here we are.

• 33:42Ben Thompson?

  So I put that quote at the beginning of my article, you know, you may not be interested in politics. Politics is an interest in you. That was about Anthropic and it was also about me.

• 33:50John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes. Welcome, welcome to 2026. Well, we thank you for taking the time to come chat with us.

• 33:57Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, great to see you.

• 33:58John Coogan?

  And fantastic article. We appreciate you, Ben. We'll talk to you soon.

• 34:01Ben Thompson?

  Thank you. Have a great day.