Suzi Ruffell - ‘I didn’t know I was gay until I saw Titanic’

In this special live edition of How to Fail, Elizabeth is joined by comedian Suzi Ruffell. Suzi has performed five sellout runs at the Edinburgh Fringe, as well as appearing on live at the Apollo and filming an Amazon special of her show ‘Dance Like Everyone Is Watching’. She was nominated for Best standup show in the National Comedy Awards and has just written her first book Am I Having Fun Now?’, an instant Sunday Times Bestseller. Suzi opens up about her sexuality, her Kate Winslet obsession and talks about her totally relatable failures in this entertaining and hilarious, but moving episode. Elizabeth and Suzi answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends from a live audience in Cardiff. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com I have an upcoming one-off show at Cadogan Hall on 21 Sep for my new novel One of Us. Full show details here: https://www.fane.co.uk/elizabeth-day Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Live Sound Engineer: Will Kontargyris Studio & Sound Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Suhaar Ali Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  Did you know that you can hear all of the things that my guests might have failed to divulge in the main episode by joining us in our subscriber community, Failing with Friends? It's where you will hear really riveting pieces of information like Olivia Atwood's dream date location, or Miranda Hart's advice on performing bodily functions in front of your partner. Just follow the link in the podcast notes and we will see you there. One of the things we talk about a lot on How to Fail is how difficult it can be to take that first step, and starting a business is no exception. With Black Friday approaching, it's a great time to turn an idea into reality. Shopify makes launching an online store

• 0:41Elizabeth Day?

  easier with ready-made themes and AI-powered tools, including Sidekick, its AI assistant, which helps you set up your shop and plan promotions without needing coding skills. Whether you're exploring a new venture or finally acting on an idea you've had for years, Shopify gives you the tools and support to get started with confidence and make the most of the busy shopping season. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first...

• 1:26Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome back to How to Fail, and if you're new here, welcome. This episode with the hilarious Susie Ruffell was recorded live at New Theatre in Cardiff. Enjoy.

• 1:40Elizabeth Day?

  Hello, Cardiff. Oh my goodness, it's so wonderful to be here. Thank you, thank you for coming out to this very, very special live recording of How to Fail, presented by our friends at HEU. It is a delight to be in Wales, it really, really is. Thank you for the warm welcome. And my guest tonight is the comedian and writer Susie Ruffell. Growing up in Portsmouth, she struggled to fit in at school and by her own admission became the class clown to get people to like her. On screen, her heroines were Victoria Wood, Catherine Tate and Frenchen Saunders. But it wasn't until she attended drama school in London that she first tried stand-up.

• 2:23Elizabeth Day?

  Since then, she's gone on to perform five sell-out runs at the Edinburgh Fringe, as well as appearing on Live at the Apollo and filming a 2022 Amazon special of her show, Dance Like Everyone Is Watching. She was nominated for Best Stand-Up Show in the National Comedy Awards and has won critical acclaim from reviewers and audiences alike. Her newest show, The Juggle, will start touring nationwide from June. Alongside her comedy, Ruffell is a radio and podcast host and regularly appears on Radio 4's The Now Show and The News Quiz. She's also just written her first book, Am I Having Fun Now?, a funny, moving memoir

• 3:03Elizabeth Day?

  which asks big questions about everything from anxiety to success and the seminal importance of Kate Winslet in Titanic for a generation of lesbians. "I can be a bit cheeky on stage, but not coarse," Ruffell says. "My general rule is I have to be able to say it in front of my mum and dad." Cardiff, please welcome to the stage the one and only Susie Ruffell. It's so nice to get to interview you because we're friends. Am I OK saying that?

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Oh, my god, yeah. I mean, what I need people to know is that if you really love Elizabeth's podcast, do what I did and just get in those DMs and sooner or later you will be her friend because she doesn't have enough backbone to say no. So it's actually worked out really well for me.

• 3:53Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, it's my low-quality control that has enabled you to get in.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  To be here this late, thanks, God. I won't be thinking about that when I go to bed tonight.

• 4:00Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, because you've written extensively about how anxious you are, so I hope that helps.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  It really does.

• 4:06Elizabeth Day?

  So talk to me a bit about Am I Having Fun Now?, your brilliant book. And it was prompted, the title was prompted by a question your daughter asked, is that right?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Yes, so we were in a soft-play centre when my daughter was three. And she was running around and then she came over to me and said, "Mama, are we having fun now?" And I thought, "I fucking hope you are, because we're in a soft play centre on the outskirts of Bromley on a Saturday afternoon. We're really not here for me."

• 4:36Speaker 01

  It then made me start to question myself, how much fun was I having? And what was holding me back from that? And the book, I mean, you've read the book, you gave me a very nice quote. It's very nerve-wracking talking about it. I'm still getting used to talking about writing a book, because it's more serious than anything that I've done before. But the book is, it's about anxiety and it's about, each chapter is a different moment of my anxiety, whether it was school anxiety, I had real trouble making friends, which we'll get to later. Then coming out, becoming a parent, being, having my heart broken, and then having a job like I do, where you sort of stand on stage for the validation of strangers every night, which is, you know, an unusual thing to do with your life.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  And at the end of each chapter, I sit down and talk to an expert in the field. So I talk to psychologists and psychotherapists. I also talk to Dolly Alderton about how you mend a broken heart. I speak to you about highs and lows and how you keep a sense of yourself when you feel like one part of your life isn't working. I didn't try and write the book with a message, but the thing that I realised in writing it was that what I had done through writing the book and having therapy alongside the book, was that over the course of the year of writing the book, I stopped fighting with my anxiety, which is what I've done since I was very small.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  As a child, I was really anxious to sort of, last year when I finished writing it, I stopped fighting the anxiety and I allowed it to be my companion. And then it has made the anxiety much better.

• 6:08Elizabeth Day?

  That's so beautifully put, and we're going to talk more about anxiety as

• 6:12Speaker 01

  I'm sure.

• 6:13Elizabeth Day?

  part of your failures. But I'm, one of the parts of the book that I really loved is your description of your family. So your parents.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:21Elizabeth Day?

  And growing up and what that meant to you. Tell us about your family.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so I'm from a very working-class family in Portsmouth. From a family of like, gooses and birds. I often say on stage, "My dad's the kind of man that can only write in capital letters." You know, those, so it means no matter what he writes, it looks aggressive. You know, "Happy birthday, love dad!" You know, that sort of thing. He's that kind of a guy. He's lovely and warm and, but, you know, just slightly rough around the edges. And my mum is sort of a very working class woman that, you know, has the confidence to wear two kinds of animal print at the same time, you know.

• 6:56Elizabeth Day?

  I love your mum.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  And that's not to be sniffed at.

• 6:58Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  It's just me and my brother, but I've got about, I think, 20 odd cousins. So, growing up, there was like loads of us all round at my nan's house. It was always very, very loud. They were always really encouraging. No one really cared that much about sort of education. There was no sort of real push for that, which was good because I didn't like school. Now I see that it's quite different to how other people grew up, but in Portsmouth at that time and all the people that I spent time with, it seemed sort of very normal. Like, people find it weird that my dad has four roast dinners a week, but to me... I don't know, is that normal in Cardiff?

• 7:35Elizabeth Day?

  What then, what does the word "class" mean to you?

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Well, you.

• 7:39Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think that there's a class system still in operation?

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Yes, I think so. I mean, it's something that you see, that I saw quite a lot through comedy. When I first started stand-up and you mentioned me going up to the Edinburgh Festival, I went up a lot of times and I sort of noticed that there were lots of people that had been to Cambridge or Oxford, that then knew people that worked at the BBC and could get on things. And there was a, I don't know, is that a class thing or is that a connections thing? Or are those things the same? I don't know. I think that certainly we're living in a time now when, actually, in many ways, class feels more prevalent than it did 10 years ago because of austerity and because of people really struggling at the moment and there not being the sort of enough support around the welfare state. That sadly, I think, there was real steps being made forward and now it feels like it's really stagnated, or if anything, it's slipped back a bit.

• 8:30Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. What class do you think you are now?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  It's hard to say because my dad is like a geezer that did well. So, my dad's job was he delivered coal to people's houses. I'm 104. And I should mention that.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  So my grandad used to deliver coal with a horse and cart. And then got a little lorry and then my dad got a little lorry. And that's what he did when he met my mum. And then he bought and sold lorries. That was sort of his trade. And then he also had horses, but in the way where posh people have horses that they ride for fun. Whereas my dad would like do people's weddings and funerals and things like that. So it was like a job alongside having a horse. It was his dream to be the sort of the man in the big house who he delivered coal to. And when I was a kid, he worked really, really hard and made some good decisions and made some bad decisions. There was a brief period where he was bankrupt and there were bailiffs at the door and it was all very stressful. And he lost everything and then he had to start again.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  My dad's thing would always be like, one day we're going to have this nice house. And he would point it out to me and my mum and go, we're going to live in that house one day. We're going to live in that house one day. And 25 years later, he bought that house with an enormous mortgage.

• 9:43Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  So it's hard to say, so is he still working class? Because then, does it change? Because he was certainly someone that grew up with not a lot of money, with quite a few kids. There were five of them and they all had to, you know, they all left school at 14 so that they could work because they all needed to. But then, you know, he did all right and now I've done all right. And if I've got a house that, again, I've got quite a big mortgage on, but. You know, I don't know, am I still working class? Is it about heritage thing or is it about a socio-economic group? I don't know.

• 10:16Elizabeth Day?

  I want to move on from our joint obsession with class to your specific obsession with Kate Winslet.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 10:23Elizabeth Day?

  This is another bonding moment in our friendship is when you listen to the Kate Winslet episode on How to Fail. And I know she was formative for your sexual awakening, but I also know.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  I'm gay. I don't know if I need to with the tie. Is it too much?

• 10:37Elizabeth Day?

  I also know that when you went on Celebrity Mastermind, your specialist subject was the movies of Sandra Bullock.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, because someone had already done Kate Winslet.

• 10:45Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, someone had already done Kate Winslet.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have to give them choices. And so I did Sandra Bullock.

• 10:50Elizabeth Day?

  And how did you do?

• 10:51Speaker 01

  I did okay. I think I came second in the whole thing.

• 10:54Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, so in your kind of league table of celebrity crushes, is it Kate Winslet first, then Sandra Bullock?

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Oh, it's Kate Winslet forever. I didn't know I was gay until I saw Titanic. So I went to the cinema when I was 12. I went to the cinema when I was 12 to see Titanic. And, yes, there is nudity. But she is also like a kick-ass character who like owns her sexuality and knows who she is in the world and doesn't want to be sort of closed in by what the world expects of her. And I went home and was really confused by it. And then I went to see the film seven times.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  At the ABC Portsmouth. And, you know, the first time I cried because I was sort of thinking, oh my god, it's so sad that all these people died. And the second time I cried because I was like, oh no. What I've realised about myself in watching this film really changes my life.

• 11:49Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  And I didn't want to be gay. I didn't want to be different. I didn't want to, I didn't like, I didn't want any of that. I mean, I'm fine with it now, but it did take, it was a journey, as you know from the book. It was, there was a massive journey of sort of acceptance of who I really am and being confident enough to to dress how I want to dress and look how I want to look. And, you know, it was, you know, nine years after I watched Titanic that I finally came out. It wasn't like I was brave immediately. But, yes, because of that, Kate holds a really special place in my heart. And then when I realised that she had been on How To Fail, I couldn't believe it. And then was really angry that I couldn't, didn't pretend to be your runner that day.

• 12:32Elizabeth Day?

  I'm sorry.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Some tea, Kate, anything, my life, anything, would you like, I don't know, to live with me?

• 12:40Speaker 01

  But I, but as you said in the intro, it's, there's quite a lot of lesbians of my generation that'll be like, oh yeah, Kate Winslet in Titanic, yeah, yeah. And so it was, it was very formative for me.

• 12:51Elizabeth Day?

  It actually brings us on to your first failure, which is not your failure to meet Kate Winslet's runner. But your first failure is your failure to fit in. And so I touched on the fact that at school, that was a bit of a struggle.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:05Elizabeth Day?

  When did you first feel that you weren't fitting in? When can you remember that feeling?

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Well, I think sort of primary school was sort of fine. And then secondary school, I think I probably became, I became aware of my sexuality in about year seven or year eight. And then... Became sort of terrified of it. So I didn't want to be too friendly with any of the girls in case they realised. So therefore I sort of took myself out of friendship groups. And then needed something to be obsessed with that wasn't hot babes. And so I became obsessed with musical theatre. And so I was really into musical theatre. And, you know, while everyone else was into Oasis. And so people would be talking about sort of blurb versus Oasis.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Well, I'd be like, so Bob Fosse was this guy that was a really great choreographer. And so I, I just didn't feel normal. And that was a queer thing. It was a, I found it quite hard to make friends. I, I, and I'm severely dyslexic. So I think that when you're, I, I, at school, I felt really thick. I felt, because if you're dyslexic, English is hard, but also all of the other lessons. Because all of the other lessons you have to read. And no one at my school sort of said to me, don't worry, there's loads of other things you can do. I was just made to feel like a bit of a thicke. So then I, I wanted to constantly divert people from like, please don't work out I'm gay. And please don't think that I'm massively thick.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  So I just was a bit of an idiot to not be noticed.

• 14:38Elizabeth Day?

  When you say a bit of an idiot.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:40Elizabeth Day?

  Was that where your love of comedy came from?

• 14:44Speaker 01

  I think so, yeah. I would try to say stupid things. I'd get in trouble, loads. I remember calling the teacher a wanker. And sure, he, he did tell me that I would amount to nothing. And so I called him a wanker. And it, I mean, I was like a hero at school. And then they called my dad in and they explained the story to my dad. And I said to my dad, well, he said that I wouldn't amount to anything. So I called him a wanker. And my dad turned to the head and said, that does sound like the type of thing a wanker would do.

• 15:10Elizabeth Day?

  That is a brilliant rejoinder.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  So I, I think that when you're constantly juggling those things, yeah, being funny or being outrageous was, you know, would divert attention from the things that I didn't want people to know about me.

• 15:28Elizabeth Day?

  So even though you say that you struggled to make friends, or you deliberately chose not to make friends, do you think you were popular?

• 15:35Speaker 01

  No, no, I don't think so. I mean, it's quite hard because I didn't, I didn't stay in touch with anyone from school. The moment, my last day of year eleven, I was like, bye, and I haven't really seen anyone. Since one or two people might have come to a tour show and there's one or two people that are in the year below that I've stayed loosely in touch with. But that's because they were my mum's friends. I mean, you don't care, my mum's friends' kids, who I sort of know still. But other than that, no, I didn't stay in touch with anyone because I didn't feel like I'd made a connection with anyone. And I, I had friends from like my dancing clubs and my, my acting clubs. But I didn't feel like I had a group of mates. I mean, it's why so much of what you've written has been really interesting to me when you talk about friendship. Because I feel like I really missed that bit of learning about friendship. Because I sort of opted out of it in many ways. Because I was so frightened of rejection.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Because I thought, well, there's this really big thing about me that some people will reject one day. Maybe mum and dad will reject one day. Maybe society will reject this thing about me. So I was terrified of being rejected by my peers. So I didn't let anyone get close enough to me that they could reject me. And so I wouldn't get invited to birthdays and things like that. But then I didn't, I had to pretend that I didn't care because I wasn't close enough to them.

• 16:42Elizabeth Day?

  Were you pretending to be straight?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, I was kissing boys, dating boys, yeah, all, all that stuff.

• 16:49Elizabeth Day?

  And how long did that take you to reconcile? You said it was a period of years, didn't you?

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it wasn't until I was twenty-one that I sort of dealt with it. And I, I had a boyfriend that I lived with for a bit. And it was, and he was really lovely. And I sort of thought, oh, I could probably end up with you. And you're really nice and you're Catholic, so you never push me for sex. This is ideal. You've got loads of guilt going on, I'll really lean into that guilt. And then, and, and I thought, oh, maybe this will be fine. Maybe this, maybe this is enough. And then I met a girl and was like, oh, this is what, this is what it's supposed, this is what the rest of the girls feel like when they're with boys, when you fancy someone. You know, she worked in the bar that I worked in and I would...

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Like, look forward to my bar shift all week so that I could spend a couple of hours with this slightly older gay woman who was very confident in herself, knew who she was. And I, and I, I couldn't believe that people could be happy and gay. I didn't know that was a thing that people could be. I didn't know, because when you, I think it's so different now. And when I, when I've spoken to sort of younger queer people about this, I think it's, it can be hard to recognise. And I also think people that came before me, generations before me, it would have been much, much worse. So I know in many ways I was lucky. But when I was growing up, if there was anything that was gay on television or queer, it would be about AIDS. It would be, you know, this happens to men. And if it was lesbians, it would be like the butt of a joke. It would be like a butch woman who should be laughed

• 18:20Speaker 01

  at. And so I didn't know there were happy queer people. I didn't know that there were people that were parents that were gay. I didn't, I remember when I decided to tell my mum, I realised that I was sort of, in two ways, I was upsetting her in that she had to work out that I wasn't who she thought I was, which she found very upsetting. And it made her think that she'd never be a grandparent. So it was, yeah, there was quite a lot going on. And what was it like when you told your dad? He was sort of fine with it, because I think that there is something in, and I've done market research on this, not that I have many dads, but asking friends, I think there's something, when you tell a dad that you're a gay woman, there was part of him

• 19:05Speaker 01

  that went, "I'm quite relieved that a man's never gonna fuck her." Right. Is that weird? I don't know. I feel like there's some truth in that. They'd be like, "Oh, well, I'm always gonna be like the man in her life. I'm not going to be..." That's so interesting. Like, I think, and I think there's a, and there's a relationship with gay men and their mums. And I don't think that's because they're, they're thinking, "Oh, a woman's never gonna do that to my son." But I do think there's an element of like, "Oh, well, I'm the woman in his life."

• 19:34Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to

• 20:19Elizabeth Day?

  live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail.

• 20:35Elizabeth Day?

  And when you told your parents, also spoiler alert, you do have a daughter.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  I do, yes.

• 20:40Elizabeth Day?

  So wonderfully, your parents do have a grandchild. When you told your parents, and when you were in this relationship with this older, more confident gay woman, did you start to feel that you were fitting in?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  In a way, but not massively, because for a long time, I was still, I still sort of hated myself for it. I still wished if I was really, if there was a switch, I would have, I would have, I would have changed.

• 21:05Elizabeth Day?

  Really?

• 21:05Speaker 01

  I would, yeah, 100%, 100%. And it wasn't until, probably until I met my wife, Alice, and then we've got a group of queer female friends, that I felt like, oh, this is fine. But it was probably 10 years of me feeling, of me being gay. And even when I started stand-up, I would be sort of borderline homophobic about myself on stage, because I thought I needed to say what they were thinking about me. So I would say something really mean about myself, or my first punchline would be... Detrimental to me about my sexuality, so I could be like, I'm gay, but I don't mind if you hate that bit about me. And it took me sort of years to unpack that and go, oh, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think it's okay for me to just talk

• 21:49Speaker 01

  about my life and not make excuses for it. But it was a, it was, it was a journey to go on.

• 21:55Elizabeth Day?

  What is it like being a gay woman stand-up? Because on one level, we have this perception of stand-up comedy as edgy and inclusive and creative and innovative, yeah. But there's still a strand, I imagine, that still maybe exists where that's the easy gag.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  When I started stand-up, it was quite homophobic. I received a lot of homophobic heckles. And even occasionally now, you'll get someone shout something out. But, I mean, this is quite crude, but it happened. The most consistent heckle I got for a period was, I can fix you. So that's happened to me, I think maybe like five or six times I've been on stage and someone shouted, I can fix you, a man. And the first time it happened, I asked my friend how I dealt with it, and she said, you look visibly hurt. And it's because I was, I remember crying on the way home from the gig. And then it happened again. And the last time it happened, I was in a comedy club, and I hadn't even

• 22:59Speaker 01

  got to the mic. So I'm literally just walking out. And like, the kind of comedy that I do is like, I just wanna like, I wanna make you laugh. Sometimes I wanna make you think a little bit. But more than anything, you know, the world is kind of an awful place sometimes. I want people to come to my shows and just laugh for an hour and a half and just forget about stuff. And for me to tell you about the different ways that I fucked up, and hopefully that all makes us feel a bit better about our own fuck-ups. And that's the sort of brand of stand-up I do. I'm a storyteller. And so I hadn't even got to the mic to start telling my stories. I was only doing a 20-minute set, and a guy shouted out, I can fix you. And I asked him to put the lights up in the comedy club. And then I asked him to stand up. And I addressed all the reasons why he wouldn't be the man to fix me.

• 23:42Elizabeth Day?

  Wow, Susie.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  And, well, yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  And you know, in the moment, it kind of felt great because I was like, yeah, fuck you, I'm being this stand-up comedian and you're... But then, at the same time, it felt upsetting that I just wanted to tell my stories. I didn't want to have to give a dressing down to a guy that was just shouting out horrible things because he had a few too many pints. And so, that doesn't really happen now because when I go on tour, people come to see me because it's my show. But certainly for a long time, there would be that. And it was, there's sort of a real history of gay men being funny. And there is a history of gay women doing that, but often, but not so much on TV. Yeah, there was sort of an allowance of... I remember I was at The Comedy Store and I was homophobicly heckled, and I dealt with it quite well. And there were these older comics in the

• 24:34Speaker 01

  dressing room. And The Comedy Store is a place where, when you're first starting out in stand-up, and this is The Comedy Store in London, that when you first start out in stand-up, it's like the place that you want to play. You want to do the store. And your name gets put outside and it feels enormously exciting. And so you do the five-minute spot and then that goes well. You get to go back and do the 10-minute spot. And then if that goes well, you get to go back and do the Thursday night spot. And so, you sort of build up. And it was my first weekend of doing it. And we get paid for the whole weekend. And it was the Friday night and I got homophobicly heckled and I dealt with it really well. And the guy that I was on with, rather than when I came off being like, "Are you all right?", he was like, "You're going to have to get loads of those put-downs because that's going to happen endlessly to you." And I was like, "Oh, I've just got through this door and now the other side of the door is full of pricks."

• 25:19Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that, because I think-

• 25:22Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 25:23Elizabeth Day?

  There's so much injustice. If you are a marginalized person in any way, that you are forced to be an activist, when actually, you could be using that energy to create.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:37Elizabeth Day?

  And it sort of keeps you preoccupied.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, if you have to write material about, or be something to people, to be the spokesperson of a thing. Whereas I just wanna tell my stories and I, you know, and there were times when I first started out in stand-up and I was, you know, playing working men's clubs and all over the place, people would say, "I don't really know any lesbians, but I like you." And I thought, "Okay, that's, I'm sort of fine with that." If that's been your, because now, you probably do know lesbians, but they're people that just maybe in your work that haven't come out to you. And so, I'm sort of fine with that. That's okay. Because, you know, by listening to someone do stand-up that's not, there's a little bit of politics in my show, but not, not loads. Not in the show that I'm writing right now. There's

• 26:20Speaker 01

  not really much politics at all. And I just want people to sort of see the world from my perspective for a bit and realise that it's probably quite similar to their perspective, even if, you know, we're different.

• 26:31Elizabeth Day?

  Well, stand-up's gain is very much musical theatre's loss.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:35Elizabeth Day?

  Because your second failure is your failure to be a musical theatre star. But I think it's too early to say, Susie.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  I don't know, Elizabeth. I don't know. I think if I've not made the chorus line by now, it's not gonna happen.

• 26:49Elizabeth Day?

  But you did think you were going to go into musical theatre, didn't you, at drama school?

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was desperate to go into musical theatre. So, as we mentioned before, because I didn't have loads of mates at school, and I found this sort of drama club where everyone was sort of allowed to be loud and allowed to be big and allowed to show off. And I was doing tap dancing and singing and lots of different things like that. And I really went, I really got into it in a really obsessive way, because it was what I did outside of school and I had friends there. And so I became really obsessed with musical theatre. And then my mum, bless her, because I didn't have many friends, and I wasn't invited to stuff at the weekends when I wasn't doing my drama clubs, my mum would take me to see the shows that were on locally. So I grew up in Portsmouth and Southampton has a really big theatre that touring productions would go to. So mum would take me to like

• 27:36Speaker 01

  the matinee of a show, and I'd see all these people that did it for a job. And then for a birthday present, mum took me to London to see Grease. And I, I was 14, and we went and watched the show. It was the matinee. And then we went round to the stage door afterwards, and we saw all the people leaving in their Juicy Couture tracksuits, just give it a moment for all of you, with juicy emblazoned across the arse and diamantes. And they all had their hair up in scarfs to keep it sort of nice for the evening show. And I remember thinking, and they were all laughing and joking, and I remember thinking, this is your job. This is your job. And so, on the way home, I sort of read the programme, fascinated by it. And I worked out all these people had been to something called drama

• 28:18Speaker 01

  school, which I hadn't really known about before. And so I became, I started getting prospectuses for drama schools that I couldn't audition for, for another four years. And I started talking about acting as, at school, as my craft, which of course would make me... And who knows why no one wanted to hang out with me. And I was doing like, I was doing shows and, but, you know, shows in, not in like beautiful venues like this. I was doing shows in like, the theatre of the local boys' school, which was where they had their lunch the rest of the time, you know, just like a school hall. But I was sort of like, oh, I'm on vocal rest this week because I'm doing a show. And the teachers would be like, you're

• 28:58Speaker 01

  not on vocal rest. You can still answer the questions in the class. But I, I'm so sorry, I'm not speaking this week because I'm in an amateur production of Annie Deacon, so... Sorry. I really wanted to do musical theatre, but I'm just not quite good enough.

• 29:15Elizabeth Day?

  So when did you come to that realisation?

• 29:18Speaker 01

  When I started auditioning for drama school, and I realised I was auditioning for the acting courses rather than, I've got a good voice for a stand-up, and I'm a good tap dancer for a stand-up comedian.

• 29:26Elizabeth Day?

  You can tap dance?

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did all the grades.

• 29:28Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, so you were auditioning and you realised?

• 29:30Speaker 01

  I just knew that I didn't have, I didn't have the voice. I didn't have the voice for it. And so, acting was, I thought, I'll go into acting. But yeah, I love musical theatre. I mean, I was just in my little dressing room upstairs, and before a show, I always listened to musical theatre, and I just love it.

• 29:45Elizabeth Day?

  What were you listening to before you came on stage tonight?

• 29:47Speaker 01

  I was listening to I Am What I Am, from La Caja Fol.

• 29:50Elizabeth Day?

  That's so weird. I was listening to that. That is so strange. I did say I think this theatre is haunted.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  I don't know that that makes it haunted.

• 30:01Elizabeth Day?

  Anyway.

• 30:04Elizabeth Day?

  I wanted to ask you a question because given that you studied acting.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:09Elizabeth Day?

  And you are now a stand-up.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:11Elizabeth Day?

  Which version of you is more you? Are you acting when, are you acting the part of a character when you do stand-up? Or do you think you're showing up as yourself?

• 30:20Speaker 01

  I think for a long time I pretended to be a stand-up because you fake it till you make it. You know, and I'm not saying that I've made it, but you fake it until, you know, you pretend to be confident until you feel confident. And I do that before most shows, you know, when it starts. Like tonight, I was quite nervous about tonight because it's, I knew that we'd be talking about stuff that, you know, you've read the book and it's an exposing thing to talk about these things that I've never spoken about before and I worry if there's not been a laugh for long enough, so I have to sort of say something to Elizabeth to try and make you laugh so that I can relax because laughter means everyone likes you. And, and I was, and I was nervous tonight and I had to think, just, just feel confident until you are confident. And so for a long time, I think as a stand-up, I was doing that. But with stand-up comedy, it's actually almost the opposite of acting.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  When you start off, you're more, you're pretending to be a comic and you learn how to take the mic out of the stand and then you have to put the stand there and then you, but actually the longer that you're doing stand-up, the more you become who you really are on stage. Because the more, the hours under the belt, it's the 10,000 hours thing, isn't it, where you, the longer that you do it, the more you can just be you, rather than trying to be what, in my mind, a comedian is.

• 31:29Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Do you think that your anxiety plays into your creativity?

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yes, probably. I think it makes me work quite hard because I'm really worried about it going wrong. And I'm really worried about fucking things up. So I work really hard on my tour shows, like, you know, I'm going out on tour in June, but now I'm doing a work in progress tour so that I can make sure that the, so I'm doing a tour now to make sure the tour is good enough. For when people come.

• 31:56Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  And so the tour at the moment is, you know, it's a cheaper price and I go on with notes and I'll say, oh, I don't know if that's really going to work. And it's, you know, in little rooms, say like, you know, a hundred people and I'll try it out every night. And I'm traveling around at the moment, working out the show so that it's good enough when people come on tour. So I, and I think this is a working class thing. I don't like the idea of people spending their money and something not being good enough.

• 32:17Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  So I'm very aware that if I talk about sort of having working class heritage, I can't then like out price those people. So it's really important to me that I keep my tickets as cheap as possible. And then I also want it to be really good. I could not agree more.

• 32:39Speaker 02

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• 33:09Speaker 03

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• 33:28Speaker 04

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• 33:32Speaker 03

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• 33:43Elizabeth Day?

  Before we get on to your final failure.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:44Elizabeth Day?

  Is it true that you once pretended to a London black cab driver that you were the stage manager for The Lion King?

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:52Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, so why was that?

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Okay. I don't, I often don't tell people what I do for a living. So some, occasionally people recognise me. I'm not a super famous person. You know, if you're very into comedy, you might know who I am, or you might have seen me on, I pop up on things, but I'm not someone that's on telly every week. And so sometimes people will be like, "Oh, you're that comic comedian." They might not have your name, or they might go, "Oh, you're..." You know, so I was in the back of a black cab, two things. You never tell a taxi driver what you do for a living if you're a comic, because two things will happen either. They'll tell you a joke, and they'll say, "You can have this, and it would be the kind of thing that would ruin my career."

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Or they'll say, "I'll tell you who I don't like", and then they'll slag off a comedian that's definitely one of my friends. So I got into the back of a cab, it was after a show in London. Got into a cab, the guy said to me, "Have you been at work?" I said, "Yes." He said, "What do you do?" And in that moment, I found myself saying,

• 34:47Speaker 01

  "I'm the assistant stage manager at The Lion King." Now, I didn't know I had hidden dreams of being the assistant stage manager at The Lion King, but it was a 20-minute journey, so then I had to improvise. To what, I have to get there before the actors, and they're so good, they work so hard. I've got kids in the show, so that's like an extra thing that I have to deal with.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  And the costumes, yeah, and we've got, obviously there's lots of props, so I have to sort of, that's why I'm so late. I have to sort of do the props to make sure they're in the right place for the next act. I was just sort of, what would my life be like? But also, I like, in that moment, even when I'm pretending to be someone else, even then I only think it's conceivable that I could be the assistant stage manager.

• 35:24Elizabeth Day?

  Yes!

• 35:24Speaker 01

  You know, even then I was like, "No one's gonna believe that this guy's the stage manager. I'm the assistant stage manager."

• 35:30Elizabeth Day?

  The humility of modest dreams.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  That's the thing.

• 35:34Elizabeth Day?

  Susie, your final failure.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:36Elizabeth Day?

  And I'm sure it's one that most people here will be able to relate to, and it's a big one. It's failure to enjoy the journey.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:44Elizabeth Day?

  What do you mean by the journey?

• 35:46Speaker 01

  To, to not be so focused on the end goal that you don't look out the window on the way. The, the big thing, it's less so now because of sort of, because of social media, that's actually changed comedy massively, because people go and see comics that they've watched in clips, rather than because of reviews at the Edinburgh Festival. It's, it's totally changed things. But I, I would go up to the Edinburgh Festival and I would go up, I went up every year, I took six shows up, and, or seven shows up, the first two did not go well. The, and then they started improving after that. And I became...

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Obsessed with being nominated for the best show at the fringe. And I mean, when I say obsessed, I would think about it most days, which I didn't admit this for a long time because I thought it was like deeply cringe. But then I think it's okay to say, I really wanted this thing and it didn't happen. And so I would go up and I would get these and I would get great reviews. So how it works, so there's about five shows get nominated for the best show of the fringe. And for those people, they're the people that will end up getting, you know, TV deals. They might get a sitcom out of it, something like that. And so if you got that thing, that nomination, it sort of changed your life. And at that point, I was on tour with lots of other stand ups. For a long time, I was the support spot. So I was on, I toured with, I did a tour with, a nationwide tour with Alan Carr, Ramesh

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Ranganathan, Josh Widdecombe, Joe Lysick, Catherine Ryan. I went on tour with lots of big names and I was the opener. And what I really wanted to be was the main act. And so I thought if I got to that point, it would change my life. And so I went, I kept writing different shows and there's a panel of about 10 people who, you know, it'd be the critic from the Times, it'd be someone that works at ITV, someone that works at the BBC, someone else that is another kind of critic or another sort of comedy expert. And for, I think, three years, definitely two, I think maybe three, I was on the long list. So you know that you're still in the running for being nominated for the main prize when the people keep coming, so they keep asking for the free tickets. So you're going, oh God, they're coming in again and they're coming in again and they're coming in again over there.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  And twice I was on the list until the night before. And so that was really gutting. And actually, one time, the woman who is at the top of that list of people that are the judges, and she's one of the judges every single year, she stopped me on the street the day before the announcement was made and said, you've got a really special show this year. And I was like, it's gonna happen, it's gonna be announced tomorrow. And every time, my agent had to ring me and say, you've not made the list, but you're still brilliant. And it was, it was, it was really hard because I really, really wanted it. Because, because me being nominated for that would have meant that... It didn't matter that I had found school so hard and it didn't matter that I found it hard to make friends and it didn't matter that I was gay and it didn't matter, all these things.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  I had put into this, these ten people making a decision about a show. And I would ignore the four and five stars reviews, it was all about being nominated for that prize. And it just didn't happen. And maybe my show wasn't good enough and that's okay as well. Or maybe people had different tastes and they weren't into that. And so, but what I wish I had done on that journey was sort of realise that there were, you know, a hundred people coming to the show every night and clapping and cheering. And I didn't allow myself the moment to really sort of soak that in. Because I would come off stage, run to my PR and say, who was in? Were the people in? They were in again, okay, that's really good. Okay, The Guardian was in tonight, oh that's great, it was a really good one tonight, maybe I'll get four in The Guardian. Like four stars in The Guardian, you know, and so I just stopped.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  I just didn't allow myself a moment to go, oh, I'm doing quite well. Because I was, it had become my job by this point, you know, and I was, and I was playing, you know, I was the opener, but I was playing, you know, thousand seaters and having great gigs. But none of it felt enough. Every year in Edinburgh I'd get like an eczema flare up, I'd be, you know, I wouldn't be looking after myself, I was, you know, a bit of a mess. And it was all because of ten people's opinion. Who weren't the people that were gonna buy tickets to my shows and weren't the people that were gonna really care about what I had to say. And so that felt, yeah, it was, I wish I had enjoyed the journey a bit more and it's

• 39:59Speaker 01

  something that I, you know, definitely try and do now with, whilst I don't put myself in those sort of competitive positions anymore, but we were talking before, I'm really nervous about the book coming out. Yeah. You know, it's enormously exposing. At school I felt like I was thick. The fact that I've written a book and I think it's quite good, which I need to get better at saying because I feel so, I'm too British to, you know, I wish I was an American where I could be like, it's a great book, you gotta buy the book. Because that's just not me, I wanna be like, I'm sorry I've written a book, if you could take, you would buy it, don't read it, just buy it, you know. It all counts, but you know, it's really exposing to put that out there and you can't help but think, oh god, I need to make this list, or I need to, it needs to sell this

• 40:41Speaker 01

  many, but actually, you know what it's really about and what we were discussing backstage is about someone reading it and feeling a connection and it meaning something to them.

• 40:49Elizabeth Day?

  It's very rare that someone is courageous enough to say what you've just said, and I relate to every single word, albeit not a stand-up comic. It's so interesting because I have been on this long learning curve, where now I understand that validation is an inside job, it has to come from within, and that's really hard, it's probably going to be a lifelong process for me. But for me, success has radically changed its definition. And being able to connect genuinely with one person and make that one person, if they come to your show, potentially they're a confused teenage girl, and having come to your show, they can connect with their parents and have the confidence to be open about

• 41:33Elizabeth Day?

  their sexuality, that is a life well-lived. And that's what happens in these venues, on these evenings. And I think we both so appreciate that, and it feels so important and fragile at the same time, but it's really good to be reminded of, that ultimately prizes, as you say, are so subjective.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, they really are. And I think, you know, I hope that people come to my shows that, you know, might feel anxious. You know, I have quite a sort of straight audience. Quite often people will come and see me and go, oh, I thought there'd be sort of more gay people here, because hopefully I appeal to lots of people. I've just, you know, happened to have a wife, which I highly recommend, even if you're straight, honestly.

• 42:14Elizabeth Day?

  Especially your wife.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's great. Yeah, she's really good. Well on her, or well on me. But people that are anxious, or, you know, having that moment at work where they're feeling scared about speaking up, or, you know, being able to find that sort of strength. To do the hard things is really what I hope people will take. But, but thanks. I find it quite heart taking compliments.

• 42:38Elizabeth Day?

  That's your meaning and that's your purpose and we're so grateful for it. I wanted to ask you on this, how being a parent

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 42:48Elizabeth Day?

  has changed how you feel about the journey and the stress and the anxiety and the not winning.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's changed it massively. I mean, my daughter was a Covid baby. And so we had this sort of time of hunkering down, which was great. We were all together. And then sort of work had to restart again. And actually, I can, I'll tell you a story about what happened. So I was, there's this thing called the Montreal Comedy Festival and for years I wanted to go. Not everyone can go. You have to be invited to go and they fly you over to Montreal. Basically, any big stand up that you can think of from this country will have been flown to Montreal at some point or another. And I finally got the sort of tap on the shoulder, you know, to go. And I went, I had nice gigs, but I just really missed home. And I really missed my, my life at home. And I sort of thought, what am I trying to get out of this?

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Because once upon a time it would have been so I can move to America for a year and do stand up. I don't want to do that now because I don't want to disrupt my daughter's life. And it would be totally unfair on Alice, my wife, to, to have to, you know, deal with, you know, me chasing my dreams. And so I think it's made me a lot better. I often say to my daughter, remember you don't need the validation of strangers. And then I'm like, bye, I'm off to a gig.

• 43:59Elizabeth Day?

  You don't need it, I do.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So hopefully she won't become a comic. That's the dream. But I think that it does sort of, it has changed how I've, sort of how I talk to myself as well. Because she thinks that I'm, that you mentioned the new show, The Juggle. A big part of that show is about the fact that I wish I was who she thinks I am. Because she thinks I'm really brave and she thinks I'm really smart. And she'll say things like, you're a superstar and you're, you know, and she's seen me on stage. I was doing the Latitude and the comedy tents in the Latitude is absolutely massive. So there was a couple of thousand people there. And she's got those ear defenders on and she's just standing by the side of the stage. And I came up and she was like, oh. Mama, that's amazing. And you become so used to performing in front of people, you know,

• 44:45Speaker 01

  that I, I sort of, I'm hoping to sort of be who she thinks I am. I'm trying to do that. I'm trying to be brave and I'm trying to be strong. And it's all the things that I say that she is, that she then says back at me, because they're little mirrors.

• 44:57Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  And so that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to be brave and strong and, you know, and you always try your best, Mama. That, that has changed things. And I think it's made me ambitious in a different way in that, you know, I wanna work less. You know, I'm, I'm still hungry for gigs and I still go out and do a really big tour, but I won't take, you know, there's certain shows that I don't wanna do anymore. At one point, I really wanted to be on television a lot. And so I'd take all of the tele shows and now I'll sort of go, I don't know how much I want to do that telly show and that's okay for me to say no to things. So I think that's the thing as well. If you've grown up really wanting a thing, and certainly growing up where money's quite up and down, you feel like you have to take everything. And so I think sort of learning to say no, well, learning to go, oh.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  And, you know, I don't think it's just stand up, like, you know, having a moment where you go, I don't think that career move is actually right, right now. You know, if it is right, it will come around again.

• 45:50Elizabeth Day?

  And how old is your daughter now?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  She's nearly five.

• 45:53Elizabeth Day?

  So when you see your five-year-old, does it take you back to you being a five-year-old? And are there some things that you might like to say to your younger self?

• 46:03Speaker 01

  I just hope that she knows whoever she is, that's great. You know, whoever she is, whoever she loves, whatever she wants to do, if she wants to be, you know, a lioness. I appreciate we're in Cardiff. A rugby player or a...

• 46:18Elizabeth Day?

  A lioness who plays football rather than a lioness in The Lion King, which you assistant stage manage.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Either or, but listen, that's nepotism because I can get the audition, of course.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  I know the casting director.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  And you know, my parents were really supportive after I came out. But it took them a little while to get their head around it. And so I just hope that she knows that she can be whoever she wants to be.

• 46:40Elizabeth Day?

  Susie Ruffell, I think all of us here would agree with your daughter that you are brave and you are smart and you are funny.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  You'd see me with a spider.

• 46:49Elizabeth Day?

  And you are a total superstar, even though I know you don't accept compliments very well, but I'm still going to do it because validation. For people who are listening, she's squirming off her chair and crawling off the stage, not even come back. I'd really like to thank all of you for being such a wonderful audience, but the biggest thank you of the evening has to go to the superstar that is Susie Ruffell.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Thanks, see you in a bit.

• 47:23Elizabeth Day?

  Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.