Something Big Happened in 12,000 BC (ft. Matt LaCroix)

On today's episode of American Alchemy we are joined by author Matt LaCroix. Enjoy! Support American Alchemy by Becoming a YouTube Member: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join Matt LaCroix is an author and researcher specializing in ancient civilizations, particularly Egypt, exploring lost knowledge, mythology, and the mysteries of human origins. Matt's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@UC65XXzhHyH3BKZ72Q1eKF8Q Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 02:19 - Matt’s Interest in Ancient History 06:50 - Underneath the Pyramids 16:04 - Lost Civilizations 23:04 - Evidence for Lost Civilizations 43:05 - Plasma / CME Events 01:03:30 - The Sun’s Dead Binary Star 01:14:52 - Ancient Underground Networks 01:23:44 - Formation of The Solar System 01:34:07 - Matt’s Current Research 01:46:38 - Noah, Gilgamesh, and the Flood 02:20:42 - The ‘Old Holy Land’ 02:29:21 - Esoteric Knowledge 02:35:04 - Evidence 02:39:29 - Mystical Experiences in Pyramids 02:44:02 - Ancient Shared Symbols 02:48:28 - UFOs SPOTIFY ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify DISCORD ➤ https://discord.gg/jessemichels INSTAGRAM (Personal) ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichels INSTAGRAM (Show) ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [email protected] Original music: https://open.spotify.com/artist/6LlLRudDi60Uy4jcmOSEs1 *** AMERICAN ALCHEMY is an original series hosted by Jesse Michels that explores the frontier of science and tech. Each week, we bring you exclusive interviews with some of the leading thinkers of our time. #history #ancienthistory #documentary #podcast #mystery #egypt Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  We look at the Giza Plateau, and we look at the pyramids, and we think, wow, that's incredible, look at the achievements, but what about under the ground? There was a whole network of rooms and cavities underneath the Sphinx. The entire area of Giza may have an entire subterranean area underneath it.

• 0:46Jesse Michels?

  You realize the implications of what you're saying. You're saying that NASA figured out that we're actually living in these sort of civilizational cycles, and they're hiding it.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  And in order to cover it up, they blocked all knowledge of the binary star companion so that that whole cycle would not be understood.

• 1:00Jesse Michels?

  You're of the opinion that this dead star is headed towards the sun now?

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04Jesse Michels?

  When do you think these underground cities were built?

• 1:06Speaker 01

  That's the ultimate question. Nobody knows. And it was sealed and buried and concealed by the flood.

• 1:11Jesse Michels?

  Think this is what we call Atlantis?

• 1:13Speaker 01

  I would say that it's what we're looking for for the lost civilizations.

• 1:20Jesse Michels?

  Matt LaCroix, I could not be more excited to have you, man. This has been a long time coming. I've seen a couple of your episodes with Julian Dory, and it's really serendipitous because I'm in L.A. I interviewed Graham Hancock two days ago, and I feel like he takes things to a certain point. He's done an amazing job, along with Randall Carlson and many others, as far as, I think, really proving out the Younger Dryas impact theory. This idea that at the latter end of the last ice age, there was maybe this comet airburst from the torrid meteor stream that wiped out some proto-civilization, some civilization that existed prior to ours. He speculates as to what that civilization is. He talks about the Atlantean myth, which comes from Plato.

• 2:04Jesse Michels?

  But I think where Graham falls short, and he'll admit he falls short at times, is actually proving out that that proto-civilization definitely existed, characterizing them. Who were they? What did they do? What were their mythologies? How did they live? What technology did they have? And I think you're sort of taking things to a whole other level with your work as far as, you know, really discovering what this civilization was all about and, you know, what they were building. And you're figuring out conflations that were made between this civilization and other civilizations that are much less old. And so I couldn't be more excited to have you, man.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Thanks, Jesse. It's great to be here. I'm looking forward to this conversation, definitely.

• 2:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's gonna be a blast. So, okay, I want to start in the most basic possible kind of starting point.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:55Jesse Michels?

  And so, how did you get into the idea that there's sort of this big civilizational cover-up? There's, you know, the civilization before ours, it got wiped out. How did you get into that idea to begin with?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Well, I've had this natural curiosity for a lot of my life, you know, seeing early movies that showed lost civilization type of concepts and advanced things that were long ago, long before we're told. And I have to give a lot of credit to Graham Hancock and Ranald Carlson. They definitely spearheaded me a lot of early on in my, in my journey of understanding this and kind of doing that wow factor of like, wait a minute. So, things perhaps are very different than we're taught in school and in which archaeology positions themselves on giving an idea of what our history looked like in what's called a gradualism kind of way, right? Where we were primitive once, long ago, hunter-gatherers, and then

• 3:50Speaker 01

  our current era of going from Iron Age, Bronze Age, you know, up until our current age is this linear growth. And that's all we've been taught. But really, to me, if you look at all the evidence that's been mounting, right? I just got back from Turkey with Dr. Robert Schock, who is one of the main players that was brought over by John Anthony West to go investigate the Sphinx enclosure, to see if it is truly wind erosion as archaeologists and geologists had postulated, or whether or not it's really water erosion. Because that really matters, because it takes that whole dating of the idea of the Sphinx being created at a much, much earlier time.

• 4:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  And that's where a lot of this blossomed, is those kinds of things.

• 4:32Jesse Michels?

  Set this up for the audience real quick, so if you were to talk to like the, you know, Egypt Ministry of Culture, they would tell you, you know, that the Sphinx was built in, you know, modern Egyptian kingdom.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:44Jesse Michels?

  And, in fact, what people like Robert Chalk and John Anthony West have found is that there's water erosion damage on the nose of the limestone of the Sphinx, and that this would show that there's some sort of maybe tropical climate that it originally existed, and people like Graham Hancock have followed up on this to say that maybe actually it was a lion.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:05Jesse Michels?

  To begin with, fully.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 5:07Jesse Michels?

  And so this lined up with the Leo, which was the constellation, that was the vernal equinox shift occurring in 10,500 B.C., around the time maybe it was actually built, and that much later it was sort of retrofitted with this pharaonic headdress.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Exactly, and that's actually one of the themes that we're going to be discussing throughout this talk, is the idea that you have a civilization emerge at a later time period, we'll call it, we'll start by saying, the dynastic Egyptians, okay, Khufu and, right, Ramses and all these others, that actually found and emerged out of what was a much earlier civilization that had been there, and what they did, and it looks like increasing evidence is showing that, is that they adopted those sites, but not only adopted them, they tried to claim them, that they were basically the ones who built them and re-carved certain things, like what you said, as I believe 100% that if you look at the

• 6:06Speaker 01

  way that the body of the Sphinx is versus the head, the head's too small, because the head was never supposed to be that size, it was built in proportion with the body, and like you said, I believe as well, it was a lion, and that it was basically what we think of as a guardian. The ancients believed that if you created something to be this, certain types of spiritual and spirit animals, like lions and eagles and different things, they embodied this protective aspect, and so they would create, and we're going to get into that, a lot of stuff with Turkey, is that they created these artifacts and these symbols. and murals and statues that shows these protector creatures that were basically part

• 6:48Speaker 01

  of guarding things like ancient libraries and underground areas and that's what I believe the Sphinx is is essentially it's guarding an entire subterranean area underneath it that we look at the Giza Plateau and we look at the pyramids and we think wow that's incredible look at the achievements but what about under the ground?

• 7:06Jesse Michels?

  How do you why do you think there's something under the ground?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Well again I was just in just with Dr. Robert Schock in in Turkey and we were talking extensively over dinner about how he was part in spearheading these sonar these readings basically ground penning trading type of radar sonar under the ground looking at voids underneath the areas just in seeing these massive massive voids with actual objects present so for instance

• 7:35Jesse Michels?

  What objects?

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Well you can have you can have cavities that water can naturally erode right something where it's like oh it's like a cave underneath well no because they're look like they they're clearly been cut with tools or whatever they use to cut them and there are again like I said there are objects down there that have like blocks or things like that that are not natural and so we know

• 8:01Jesse Michels?

  And we picked that up with sonar has anybody gone down there and tried to verify?

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Well this is this is the story and I'll tell this story is that when the in the 90s when they found these massive voids and it's not just under the Sphinx it's under the great pyramids as well they all connect with these like subterranean underworld type of areas they found that there was a whole network of rooms in cavities underneath the Sphinx as the first area that then led to literally all the entire area of Giza may have an entire subterranean area underneath it now we're told by things like Edgar Cayce and others that there was like an ancient library that was supposed to be underneath the great Sphinx that had the records of

• 8:46Speaker 01

  You know, ancient, ancient times and all these secrets and things like that. They called it, um, like they was called the halls of a mentee that led to this, this ancient library. Now, when they found these voids, we know that there are four entrances, four, underneath the Sphinx. There's one under the left paw. There's one on the top of the head and you can actually, if you go like online right now and look up, um, like, you know, tunnel on top of the head, you can see it. It's capped off on top. There's one on the backside, um, and then there's another one on the, on the, one of, one of the other sides of the Sphinx. So there's three to four entrances that are known about.

• 9:27Jesse Michels?

  So is the Sphinx hollow?

• 9:29Speaker 01

  No, it's made out of actually the bedrock. So it's, it was an entire, uh, section of bedrock that they took all the sides away.

• 9:37Jesse Michels?

  But when you say entrance coming from the head, where do you enter?

• 9:40Speaker 01

  It's carved down into this bedrock body.

• 9:42Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  The entire Sphinx is not made out of stones put together. It's made out of a bedrock foundation body. So it's just cut out of the bedrock. And so they have tunnels. Especially Robert Schock determined that the one under the paw, I think it might actually be the right paw.

• 9:57Jesse Michels?

  So the Sphinx is like a gate?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  It's like a gateway. It's like a guardian that's guarding, guarding these entrances that go into like ancient libraries.

• 10:06Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Okay, now.

• 10:07Jesse Michels?

  Why can't we go down?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Well, this is what happened. When they determined in the nineties and they had these, um, basically, types of ground penetrating radar, like different types of ways that they were determining it to find the voids. They published them and they kind of went viral and everyone's like, oh my God, what's, what's down there? And the Egyptian authorities came through and they boarded up the front of the paws with boards, literal boards and blocked it off. And then what they did is very clever. They ended up drilling down to prove to the public that there was no voids, but they purposely went where there wasn't entrances, just drilling down into rock and say, look, there's nothing here.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  And it was very, very misleading and clever so that people are like, oh, shoot. So there weren't really voids down there. It was just like an opening and that's from rainwater or something and they tricked people.

• 10:57Jesse Michels?

  Do you think they're simultaneously going down there and excavating?

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Question is, have they ever been down? There's really no answer to that to know. But if that was, if you knew about that and you deliberately didn't go down and then you literally boarded up, the whole front of the Sphinx is now boarded up, that would to me be something where you're trying to kind of silence.

• 11:20Jesse Michels?

  Who took the first sonar readings?

• 11:22Speaker 01

  It was, Robert Chalk was part of a team, a whole, a whole team that was, that was basically looking down and taking this type of ground penetrating radar to...

• 11:30Jesse Michels?

  Is he not campaigning in outrage and saying, "We should be going down there"?

• 11:35Speaker 01

  There are steps that need to happen. There are many, many, many millions of dollars that need to be obtained and then universities that have to be brought into this. It's something that I know that he would potentially be interested in. We would, we would like other groups and others that are interested to come together to try to bring this back again and reignite this under, underground exploration of the subterranean areas of Giza. And I think it will happen in the future. And again, maybe this, this types of conversations are what's needed to get that started again.

• 12:08Jesse Michels?

  Do you have a hypothesis as to what might be down there?

• 12:11Speaker 01

  I think there are entire chambers and I think there probably is a library. Now, if that library was made out of paper, it wouldn't exist anymore because paper only survives for 500 to 1,000 years, which would mean that it had to be, had to be something like tablets with like type of cuneiform or hieroglyphics carved into it. Whatever it is would have to be able to survive literally 10,000 years underground, which is not, again, paper would never be able to, so you'd have to have other means.

• 12:40Jesse Michels?

  So if the Sphinx were actually built around 10,500 B.C., what sort of writing would you expect to find down in these tunnels?

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Well, that's the question is whether or not hieroglyphics like we see in any dynastic Egyptians was even the type of language. That they used and that where that's going to come up again when we talk about cuneiform is a writing style that we see out of throughout Mesopotamia. Now, to be very clear, if you were not to carve some kind of writing into stone or clay, there would simply be no method that we know exists for how to leave a message. Now, I'll give one caveat to that. There could be some type of technology that they incorporated into stone that could have a way to record information that we don't understand yet.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Could because I say that because there because there was a very specific reason that these civilizations would get certain kinds of stone. So they would not be like, oh, hey, look, there's some bedrock to our right or left. Let's go cut those blocks out of that. They didn't do that. They didn't. That didn't seem to matter to them that in fact, the distance that they are willing to go to obtain certain stone was even irrelevant to them. But give you an example, all the pink granite we find throughout the Giza Plateau came from 500 miles away to the south in the Aswan Quarry. That was your only source of this type of pink granite, which of course is extremely high in silica quartz, which is the same substance that we use for watches.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  So is there something there with keep recording messages in that that we don't understand? I want to throw that out as a possibility so that I don't say that the only form of writing would be like cuneiform or hieroglyphics in stone.

• 14:31Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that the great pyramids of Giza were also built around that period much earlier than?

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Well, and this is an interesting dilemma is that first of all, we know they're at least 10,500 B.C. And that's the first thing to point out because number one, that's when we have these alignments with different star constellations. There's something called the king and queen's chamber that face different constellations, right? The queen's chamber faces Sirius, it's like a feminine energy, and the king's chamber faces Orion. The problem is based on what's called the procession of the equinoxes, which is how the earth wobbles and and looks at different ages and constellations. That could not have happened in modern history all the way until you get back to 10,500 B.C.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  The problem is that that was an extremely volatile time for Earth's history. That was during this period of the older and then the younger dryas, which is basically when our Earth went from the Pleistocene epic to the Holocene epic. And we went through these catastrophic periods. Now, we can get into what caused them because I personally don't believe it was an impact. And we can get into some of the implications of how there's correlations between both and have similar evidence for what they could lead to that. But the problem is if you have extremely volatile periods on the Earth, it wouldn't make sense to me to be able to build these massive structures during that.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Now, John Anthony West, and I know that Robert Shock and him had a lot of conversations around this. John Anthony West believed that it was a previous age in which the Sphinx was built, and I do as well.

• 16:12Jesse Michels?

  Well, the thing that never made sense to me about, you know, some of the extrapolations of the kind of Hamlet's mill thesis, this idea that we would build, you know, architecture specifically around the Great Procession, you know, the Vernal Equinoxes, you know, it's 26,000-year cycles.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the Great Year. That's what's called the Great Year.

• 16:31Jesse Michels?

  Right. So like the idea that like, you know, in 10,500 B.C., that civilization that's building specific megalithic architecture would have the cosmic understanding of, you know, 26,000 years prior. Like, you know, they really understand these sort of macro cycles when it comes to, you know, cosmology and astronomy.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:57Jesse Michels?

  That seems hard for even me to believe. And so that makes me think maybe it is. Look, I believe that simultaneous to what I'm saying, to play devil's advocate, you know, I do think ancient civilizations had precocious understanding of the stars. And they had, you know, like, you could see, look at Sumerian architecture where, you know, it feels like they understand this heliocentric universe, and they have like all the, you know, planets in their rough alignment. Having said that, you know, 26,000 year cycles, that feels really crazy. But I don't, what do you think?

• 17:28Speaker 01

  I think we shouldn't underestimate the knowledge that these lost civilizations, and I say that, that's in quotes, lost civilizations understood. And that we were completely reset, just like Graham Hancock says, right? A species with amnesia. We don't remember who we are. We don't remember what we once were and what we once understood. And I think that these monuments that basically are evidence, I think, left behind to be the test, the last, the test of time, built out of the hardest stones in the world, would be the perfect way to be able to have their memory and their knowledge be preserved so that someday in the future, humanity could finally find their way back.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  And I say find their way back because I believe that they had sophistication and knowledge that we simply don't have even now.

• 18:19Jesse Michels?

  Well, do you, have you ever watched the movie Stargate?

• 18:22Speaker 01

  In fact, when you asked me that question of how I got into this, I would say Stargate was the first movie that truly awakened me and encapsulated me at a young age to, in wide wonder, to be like, wait a minute, there's something else going on here.

• 18:39Jesse Michels?

  Well, what's always interested me is you have Aztec kings, you have Nebuchadnezzar, you have King Judea of Sumeria, you have all these sort of story of pharaohs with similar stories, where they get these downloads. And it's like, you have to build this structure that's astronomically aligned in a specific way. And Graham Hancock talks about this as well. He says, it probably had more to do with some sort of afterlife ritual. I mean, traditionally, even in a lot of esoteric versions of modern religions, your soul ascends through Orion's Belt. And it's, there's some sort of weird ascension path. And so is the specific geometric structure of the pyramid somehow this conserved version

• 19:25Jesse Michels?

  of that, where, you know, when you, when you die, you go there and you sort of, it's this portal to some other world.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  So it's this And it's echoed throughout hermeticism and others, it's it's known as the law of correspondence. Okay, and now the specific science behind is called geodesy. Now geodesy is basically creating structures in very specific positions to not only match things like cardinal points and different ratios of like the earth, sun and the moon, but also star constellations. And the ancients, I believe, had mastered that knowledge and that concept in which if you build something that mirrors the stars in an exact way, ratio wise on our earth, and you also incorporate in the the corresponding aspects of earth, sun and moon, that you create like a synergy.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  And it's and that may be this concept we think about with like a portal. It's some kind of a synergy because the earth, listen, it's a giant, it's like a crystal magnet, okay? It's a crystal that's vibrating at a certain resonant frequency that has these geomagnetic poles that use this concept of magnetism. And of course Nikola Tesla believed that not only was vibration frequency and magnetism like a core of understanding everything in the universe, but he believed that even crystals have like a form of sentient life, that they vibrate in a way that other minerals and other stones don't. And they have some kind of an intelligence or something that we don't understand. And if that's the case, it means that our earth is literally alive.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  It's a living thing and it's like a being, but it's unlike us. And that the sun and the moon are also like that. And that we all have this this connection that is deeper than we perhaps understand. And that constellations like Orion played a very pivotal part in understanding, again, like you mentioned, if you create that synergy between the heavens, are you creating something between like a portal between souls and different incarnation cycles and things here? And of course, we can get down that road as well. But geodesy, for instance, I want to go back to that really quick. A lot of these structures on the earth, like the Great Pyramid of Giza, as well as things like Aridu in ancient Sumer

• 21:44Speaker 01

  and other locations are built on what's called the 30th parallel. It's this part of the earth that is in this Quadrant zone that is basically part of like a hemisphere ratio of the Earth and other aspects. And when you look at the positioning of these structures all around the world, you realize that they were perfect in their time. But the very interesting thing that we can get into when we're talking about the civilization that I'm studying even to a greater degree in eastern Turkey is you find out that there's these type of Susi, type of temple called a Susi temple, S U S I, that had openings that faced only the, based on solar aspects of the rising and the setting sun.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  The problem is, none of those Susi temples face directly west or east anymore. They're all off. And if you look around the world, you can see that many of these structures no longer are perfect in their cardinal points or their direction anymore, showing us that during these volatile times, I believe the Earth's axis shifted. And that would be ultimately one way you were asking earlier before we started the show, how could you date these? Well, one way you could date them is by looking at when they were aligned. And if they're not aligned now, it means that something was very different because they didn't make mistakes.

• 23:05Jesse Michels?

  If I were making a counterargument, I might say, you are, we can't carbon date this stuff, which would be the most scientific thing to do, but you can't carbon date stone.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:15Jesse Michels?

  And so, you know, we are then just retrofitting this current, you know, observed megalithic architecture, which is impossible to build kind of currently. Like, there's, nobody can really argue with that, that the civil infrastructure and engineering necessary is just like, we don't have it currently.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Incredible, yeah.

• 23:34Jesse Michels?

  But we're just finding the time when it lined up astronomically, and we're saying that's the time that we built it. Do we have more evidence that it was, that's definitely older than is conventionally understood?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  We do. And there's, I can give a couple examples of that. One of them, and again, I just got back from, with Dr. Robert Shuck from Turkey, and there's a site called Kefkalesi, very mysterious and enigmatic site with these giant Square basalt blocks and basalt is one of the hardest stones in the world. It's seven on the most hardest scale out of 10. Very, very hard stone and it has these machine cuts and all of these levels of sophistication that are bizarre and mysterious. But on the surfaces of many of them and only on the surfaces that face above, we find melting that has taken place, literal melting of the stone. And Dr.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Robert Shaw confirmed on numerous stones that it is indeed vitrification. And to obtain that, you would have to have temperatures that exceeded 2,000 degrees to be able to melt this basalt into basically like glass, obsidian on the surfaces, which is what we're seeing. Now, some are going to argue right now at this point, and I want to play devil's advocate, they're going to say, well, fires can do that. Well, if you go to that, that area of the world that I'm talking about around Lake Vonn, there are no trees. There are no, there's no wood, right? So if

• 25:00Jesse Michels?

  Was there wood back then?

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Well, if they had built, they built out a mud brick on top of these existing structures, okay? And they incorporated them in and then we're going to get much more deep, deeper into this as we go along. But it's say you had timber and things built into the mud brick, still, how would you have enough heat to be able to do that? You're talking about extreme, extreme temperature gradients, but also the stones are severely degraded, severely weathered and degraded from these, these events. Now, it's either things like a plasma event, we could talk about, and you mentioned an impact, and I won't completely throw that off the table. But there's a third way, a massive, massive volcanic eruption.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  And that very same thing happened with a mountain called Mount Nemrut, just to the southwest of Lake Vonn, which is where all these sites are surrounding, which is not the same Mount Nemrut that has all the statues on the summit. There's actually two Mount Nemruts in Turkey, which is a little bit frustrating. This is a different Mount Nemrut that doesn't have any ancient stuff within it, but it has a giant, giant crater in which it exploded. And you learn that that mountain last exploded at, during the end of the Pleistocene, during the younger and older dryas.

• 26:15Jesse Michels?

  Really? And theoretically, a volcanic explosion could layer the earth in this sort of sheath of, you know, black smoke and, and, and block, you know, cosmic rays and, you know. Cause all sorts of geological and environmental changes, is that right?

• 26:33Speaker 01

  That, that, that on top of if you're close enough to it's the explosion itself, you could have unbelievable amounts of heat get expelled from massive eruptions like that. I mean, have you ever seen, if you watch documentaries on Mount St. Helens, right? When it erupted, people were five, 10 miles away observing it and some of them were like, were died from the heat.

• 26:56Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Completely died trying to, trying to photograph it as that plume of super, super heated air, like thousands of degrees was thrust down and, and spread around the environment. It, it, it was enough to literally kill people and burn them, vaporize them partially.

• 27:14Jesse Michels?

  So did that get us out of the Ice Age?

• 27:17Speaker 01

  What we're looking at is a series of two major, major events and you have a sheet right in front of you. Now, the Younger Dryas is consistently talked about by Graham and Randall and others, but I would like to point out that I believe equally as important is the Older Dryas. Now there, it's part of the same time period. Now, the Older Dryas was 14, around 14 and a half thousand years ago, whereas the Younger Dryas is like 12,000 years ago, but they're within the same time period. But I think they played together in a very specific way where the Younger Dryas is more like huge impacts on the end of a cycle and the Older Dryas are these huge impacts on the beginning of a cycle.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  And they both played critical, critical roles in ending the last Ice Age, which was very, very extensive in places like North America and parts of Northern Europe with both the Eurasian and Laurentide ice sheets.

• 28:14Jesse Michels?

  How long was the Ice Age, just for the audience?

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Well, the Ice Age was well over 20,000 years. Now, not Contrary to what some might believe, there wasn't ice just covering the entire northern hemisphere. In fact, one of the anomalies that I want to point out that's very interesting is that the ice was centralized around areas that you would never imagine. Like, for instance, northern Siberia was ice-free, right? One of the coldest places on Earth that we have today was completely ice-free. The ice was focused around, if you were to say a focal point, would have been Greenland. Now, that has led to a lot of theories and hypotheses regarding that the North Pole,

• 28:59Speaker 01

  the pole was actually over Greenland and not where it is in the Arctic now, which would mean that we had a different type of hemispheric effect where the ice sheets and where different things were. And that may have been part of what shifted the axis of the Earth. Do not underestimate the weight of miles of ice. I mean, the Laurentide Ice Sheet in North America is estimated to have been somewhere between two and three miles deep, covering all of Canada, down into the parts of the northern United States, and of course, continuing up into Greenland, and then you have the Eurasian Ice Sheet. But these ice masses are some of the largest that Earth has ever had. And when you have that much weight, you can actually cause enough to not only depress,

• 29:43Speaker 01

  suppress surfaces down into the ground, but you can cause so much weight that it's like, it almost causes like a spinning, you know, sphere to cause it to almost wobble on itself because it has too much weight on the northern, on the top side.

• 30:00Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. And so, you had this ice age for 20,000 years. What exactly happens in the older dryas and then what happens in the younger dryas in your assessment?

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Well, what we, and I've, I'm someone that's spent the last 10 years extensively studying climatic events, geologic climatic events, but specifically through two things. The Antarctic ice cores, which, by the way, you can go back to 450,000 years on those ice cores, which is insane to see that. That's the oldest ice on earth bar none and that's why I don't believe the civilizations were into Antarctica. Because of we we have ice cores showing how old that ice cap is. Okay, and and that is why I think mountains look like pyramids there is because there's been almost there's been little to no erosion by wind or rain or anything.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  They're almost like these giant mountains made out of certain stones that have been almost stuck in in an ice cap and haven't been able to weather now.

• 31:01Jesse Michels?

  The Antarctica conspiracy theories are gonna be very disappointed.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  I know they'll be sad about that one. Now, but you know what we need now? We need real science being brought into this and that's what I would like to bring to this conversation now Greenland. The Greenland ice cap is only 20,000 years old, hence the last ice age around 20,000 years during that is that formed 20,000 years ago, which means that we only have ice records from Greenland cores for 20,000 years, but we get a snapshot of it to look back and see what it was like now. What we find is that 14 and a half thousand years ago, carbon spiked astronomically on the planet and this is gonna this is again getting into when we look at modern times of people talking about

• 31:45Speaker 01

  how humans are the only reason why the climate and carbon is increasing. That's absolutely not the case. If anything, we had carbon, um, carbon spikes 14 and a half thousand years ago that completely dwarf the time we're in right now. And how that could happen is I think based on increased massive amounts of sunlight hitting the earth, melting things like, you know, increasing letting methane off in the atmosphere, increasing plant growth and other things would create a lot of different, you know, carbon, creating this carbon dioxide, carbon dioxide increase. And also what we found is that in the Antarctic ice cores, every single time that these massive spikes of carbon occur,

• 32:30Speaker 01

  we get temperatures that then follow right after, right after now. 14 and a half thousand years ago, we had a spike in which temperatures went from some of the coldest we've ever seen. And you can see it right in front of you on that sheet. Some of the coldest we've ever seen to levels that were even warmer than we are now.

• 32:51Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  In but in only like a couple hundred years.

• 32:56Jesse Michels?

  So how does that happen? A coronal mass ejection is the magnetosphere of the earth, which protects us from the sun. Is that weakening? Is there a pole shift that causes the magnetosphere of the earth to weaken? There are all sorts of theories. What do you think?

• 33:08Speaker 01

  I believe that a massive CME event, unlike anything that we've ever seen in modern human history, hit the earth.

• 33:16Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think that?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Well, because if you look at the spike, it's immediately at fourteen and a half thousand years ago during the older dryas, it's immediately followed by a drop so drastic that it ends up being colder than even the ice age. So you're talking about temperatures that go from an ice age that rise warmer than even now, but only that only remain for, let's say, a hundred years or less, and then drop colder instantly.

• 33:46Jesse Michels?

  So.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Colder than than even the ice age was.

• 33:49Jesse Michels?

  Why would that point to coronal mass ejection?

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Because if you have a huge amount of heat that hits the earth, and again, that could also potentially argue an impact. But let's say one of the two, okay? You would what what could only thing that could cause that to happen is if you have an enormous amount of fresh water from glaciers, right? Hence, the ice age.

• 34:14Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  That melts instantly into the oceans, disrupting ocean currents across the world and basically collapsing things like the Gulf Stream. The Gulf Stream, for those who don't know, is this unbelievably warm current of water that comes off of the Caribbean and off of Florida, and it dives northeast and then basically rides over the Atlantic. And it's the only right reason why people can live in Iceland and in Scandinavia. That area would be a complete barren ice wasteland if it wasn't for that. It's a warm.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Propeller of energy, right, that rides up and we have ocean currents all over the world. And ocean currents play a very pivotal role in moving heat around the planet and also stabilizing things like the climate. In fact, I think one of the things that's most not understood about our climate is the role that currents play with the oceans in our weather, in our climate of the earth. And that's why if, for instance, we had enough fresh water melt into and shut off the Gulf Stream, it would be enough to destabilize basically the entire planet. It's a very fine-tuned system of heat being driven down and moving up through and it's

• 35:31Speaker 01

  a whole system.

• 35:33Jesse Michels?

  But if an asteroid, you know, if we hit a comet from the torrid meteor stream and that would also cause some, you know, quick heat up versus the coronal mass ejection, why are you waiting it, you know, in favor of coronal mass ejection?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Well, I've never seen, I've never been able to find any evidence of any impact craters anywhere on the earth that are from that age. Now, Graham had brought up the one in Greenland, but we know that one is over a million years old underneath the ice cap, right? Because the Greenland ice cap is 20,000 years old, so that would take that one off the table. Now, that doesn't mean that a torrid meteor shower couldn't have explosions mid-air, right? Like we see in Tugusta in the 19, early 1900s. That's possible too, but the reason I always, I lean towards CME events, coronal mass ejection events, is based around these areas of vitrification and what we believe, I believe, is evidence of plasma discharges all around the world.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  And that's how you would essentially get poles moving from Antarctica, or sorry, from the Arctic over to Greenland, is you would have these events where the entire magnetosphere of the earth basically gets severely weakened. And then holes open up and then you get these vitrification types of events and others. And that, to me, the evidence is much more leaning towards a CME event than an impact, which would be more localized to certain areas. of the earth, not on this global scale.

• 36:59Jesse Michels?

  Makes sense. Where do you see the plasma all over the world?

• 37:02Speaker 01

  We see plasma events, again, some of the best evidence is out of Bolivia, out of, um, out of, uh, Turkey, around Kev Kalesi and others, and we see it in Egypt as well. There are these giant statues, they're actually the largest, um, stone statues in the world called the Colosseum of Memnon. And they have burn marks only on the northeast side. Which it lends us to possi- to the possibilities that these, um, massive heat areas that opened up with the ozone may have come from the northeast.

• 37:36Jesse Michels?

  But we still can't date the plasma, right?

• 37:38Speaker 01

  No, of course we can't. We can't date that, but we can potentially start to date other things, like for instance, um, maybe we can date soil cores from Lake Vonn, or maybe we can date, um, uh, cores of some of, some of these stones, uh, you, cause if you can bore in, you can't date a stone from the outside. But if you can bore into it, you can potentially find things like, uh, organic matter deep, deep within very microscopic cracks, and you, you have more of an ability to date them. That's how Gobekli Tepe was dated. The only reason they were able to date Gobekli Tepe is because the site was believed to be buried. You can only date organic matter if it's covered up and concealed.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Because if it's out and it's being exposed to the elements, it alters its entire, uh, chemistry and you can't date it the same way. And what we're looking at right now is the potential that places like Kev Kalesi and even Ionis, and we'll, we can get into that as we go along, may have been deliberately buried at a later time.

• 38:43Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. So are you hopeful that we can date parts of these monuments that have been covered up? Because you can, it seems like, date organic matter that's been buried.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that we're gonna be having increasing capabilities revolving around being able to, to date these and then using all the-

• 39:01Jesse Michels?

  What are the capabilities? How, how do you do that?

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Well, we have new technologies coming out that are, enable us to be able to look at these things in a different- There's always new things happening with understanding the breakdown of carbon organic matter based on radioactivity and other things to find dating. But I also think that maybe, maybe some of the techniques that we're just coming into is understanding where certain sediments and different cores can help us with dating. And I think that those technologies and things, and I'm not an expert in that, I don't want to pretend to be, to be able to understand that those things can potentially be dated, but only if they come from specific environments in which something unique, excuse me, something unique occurred in which they were protected.

• 39:45Speaker 00

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• 40:44Jesse Michels?

  Does Robert Shock agree with your coronal mass ejection theory?

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Robert, that's Robert Shock, actually, that he's the one who really was one of the top pioneers. His book Forgotten Civilizations is the basis behind almost the entire book was that, and I can go into it briefly, is that when they were in Easter Island, his wife Katie, they were looking at this, what was thought to be a writing called Rango Rango. Okay, it's a type of writing out of Easter Island. And when they were comparing it to things even like the Nazca lines in Peru and Other, um, other areas like maybe Mahendra Dharo and other types of mysterious writings that don't look like writings. One of the theories that they came up with is that they're not actually writings at all.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  They're plasma discharge, uh, designs in the sky because we know that, um, electricity follows very specific patterns.

• 41:38Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, wait, you're saying that the Nasca lines were like burned into the surface of the earth?

• 41:42Speaker 01

  No, no, they were imitating potential plasma discharge events in the sky.

• 41:46Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Because maybe they believed that those areas were touched by these air, those events and maybe they thought they were sacred or they were, they were showing them if these things, plasma discharges in the atmosphere. Let me, let me give some background on this for a second.

• 42:03Jesse Michels?

  Well, we should, and also just for the audience's sake, Nasca, I believe was like 200 B.C. to 600 A.D. ish or something and it's in Peru and, uh, you have these, all these amazing, it seems like artwork that only makes sense from an aerial view and they're, you know, over wide distances and seems, you know, like it would involve some sort of precocious astronomical or artistic knowledge to make and it's this big sort of mystery that will play endlessly on Gaia and, you know, History Channel.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I worked at Gaia for two and a half years.

• 42:35Jesse Michels?

  Did you really?

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:37Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  I wrote, I worked on shows like Ancient Civilization. Check out season, season four and five if you want to see some of me in that.

• 42:43Jesse Michels?

  I'll, I will.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  In working that.

• 42:45Jesse Michels?

  That explains you're kind of like, you have the trippiness and then you also have the, you know, hardcore, you know, I think what's really important is marrying, uh, stuff that comes from instinct to research and empiricism and that's, I think, good science. And I think it's kind of an alchemical process because it comes from the inside, but then it's being extremely rigorous about, you know, I had this intuition, but I, I'm not superimposing that onto reality.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Well, and also the, the aspect of the metaphysical nature of reality, right? I think that's a very, uh, it ends up being not really, uh, married together with the science aspect. They tend to like be very separated, right? Oh, the science aspect, we're going to look at only the physical third dimensional aspects of science. Evidence, but really there are like a lot of things that are disconnecting is how metaphysical sides of of of the universe and our like spirit, right?

• 43:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  And and and those concepts have to have to connect and play in.

• 43:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and we paint over the past with our modern epistemic brush. And we say, you know, these sites were just, you know, the they were built in these sort of materialist reductionist ways and they were used for sort of prosaic reasons. We have no idea how these people from the past actually thought. And that the word Gaia actually, you know, I like it in the context of Gaia theory, you know, James Lovelock, you know, late 19th century. That the earth itself is somewhat alive or just at least extremely resilient.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  That's what the ancients believed. They called it Tiamat or Gaia. Gaia was the the Greek term, but they believed that it was a living type of being that's not like us. And they also believed that the sun is just the same thing. They're like entities and then in ancient cultures had names for them like Utu was the name for the sun god in ancient Sumer. But let me get back to something that we were talking about that I think is important.

• 44:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  The plasma events, okay? When you if you the earth was going to get hit by one of these massive CME events, which we've. It's interesting how the aurora borealis is further south than we've seen it in a very, very long time right now.

• 44:50Jesse Michels?

  People are freaking out.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Right, and that's potentially.

• 44:53Jesse Michels?

  You know this guy on Twitter, um, Space Weather News?

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:57Jesse Michels?

  You know what I'm talking about? He's freaking out about, you know, and I never know how seriously it take. I mean, clearly we've seen more more solar activity this year than than ever, and it seems to be ramping up. And you have all these flares. And he attributes that to a weakening of the magnetosphere of the earth.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  And I I agree. And because if you look at the great year.

• 45:16Jesse Michels?

  Should we be freaked out, Matt?

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Well, if you if you look at the great year, which again is about it's about 25 and a half to six 26,000 years, right? Half of that is is because it's like it's a call it 20 25,000, but it's like 24,600. Half of that is 12,000 with change. These events that occurred during the Younger Dryas with what I believe was. The last CME event was twelve and a half thousand years ago. So we're literally exactly in that time period. We're seeing these extreme warming and these these plasma like type of weakening of the magnetosphere type of events, just like we saw then.

• 45:53Jesse Michels?

  This is not at all scientific. This is purely my own like, you know, it's like asserting free will or something like that. Something I I sort of refuse to go outside the bounds of. So I'll admit this is kind of dogmatic, but like, I just don't believe that every twelve thousand five hundred years, there's just a hard reset button. Like, we've got to have some sort of agency around this.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  I can go into that if you want to. I actually have some evidence you probably haven't heard of yet that might blow your mind on that.

• 46:19Jesse Michels?

  Please.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  OK, so again, like I mentioned, there's always indications that these things are going to happen way ahead of time. Right, CO2 spikes, temperatures spike. You get these geomagnetic events with these aurora borealis, right? You see them now, the next level in if we start seeing this, we need to worry is plasma discharge designs in the sky, which is what I was just talking about with what was Dr. Dr. Robert Shuck's theory on like a Rongo Rongo text and even potentially the Nasca Lines is that they're actually these geometric formations that occur in the sky based on massive amounts of what are called charged solar particles that come into our upper atmosphere and they create these very interesting electromagnetic designs.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  OK, now, I want to discuss something that might be new to you. And if you're interested in seeing an image of what I'm talking about, it's on the the bottom of my main page of my website, the stage of time.com. In nineteen eighty seven, there was an encyclopedia that came out called a new science encyclopedia. OK, and this is back before computers really up and running or we didn't have that capability. So information you really got through like encyclopedias, right? That's where things came through. Well. It had this unbelievable image on, I think, page 2,488, if I think, something like that, where it showed, and it didn't say really much about it.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  All it said is, "The following image is a diagram based on Pioneer 10 and 11 probes." Okay? And then it said like, "Oh, we sent out a plaque on it, blah, blah, blah." Well, what it shows, and I can get into what Pioneer 10 and 11 found, because it directly relates to this entire great year, this entire cycle, and how might help you understand why this stuff keeps happening at 12,000 to 12,500 years, every time.

• 48:13Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Okay?

• 48:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Is that what they found, and this may be new to people, and it may blow a lot of minds, and I would again encourage people to go to my website and see that image, by the way, which is very hard to find online. It was, seemed like it was scrubbed.

• 48:27Jesse Michels?

  Where was it taken exactly?

• 48:29Speaker 01

  I ended up digging in and finding a PDF version of it that was like, somebody might have emailed it to me, or whatever, where I got a high-def definition version of it, and then I scanned it, and then I uploaded it, and I, so I'm like, "Oh, we need to preserve this," right?

• 48:42Jesse Michels?

  Where was it taken exactly?

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Well, um, okay, I'll go back and tell you how this started.

• 48:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  In, um, in the 1970s, there were the first probes ever in history that were sent out in deep space. It's funny to me how people have only heard of Voyager, right? They're like, "Oh, Voyager, Voyager." No, Pioneer. Pioneer came before Voyager, hence the name Pioneer. It was the first deep space, deep space probes we ever sent out into interstellar space, okay? You have, if you think about neighborhoods of space, the area between us and the sun is this actually quite small little neighborhood. The, um, our outer solar system is this whole other vast area beyond the sun that then basically is bordered by what's called the Kuiper Belt, right?

• 49:32Speaker 01

  I'm sure Graham talked about that, it being impacted by the torrid meteor shower, right?

• 49:36Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Torrid meteor shower comes through, and one of the theories is it can bump around some of these Kuiper Belt objects, which are giant, giant asteroids and comets in the outer, outer part of our solar system that basically dwarf our asteroid belt around Mars that is like, come nothing compared to this, okay? Well Pioneer 10 gets sent out one direction and Pioneer 11 gets sent out another direction and they were basically sent out to study gravitational protrusions on the outer planets of Uranus and Neptune. They wanted to understand, wait, what the heck? Why are these giant gas planets tilted on their axis? And then as you get closer to the inner solar system, and I'm not a, I'm not an astrophysicist, but I can fill in

• 50:21Speaker 01

  some blanks here, why they would be tilted on their axis, something gravitationally is affecting them, right? Is it our sun? Wait, it can't be our sun. How can they be tilted like that? And in fact, our entire solar system is tilted slightly on an axis. So what happened is they send, they send out the probes in the early, during the 1970s, both of them, they sent them in completely different directions. Remember, space is 3D, so it's not like a linear paper. It's got mass, it's, it's got everything. So you have to go different directions to try to understand how to create like a model, right? Well, in the early 1980s, Pioneer 10 and 11 made history because they were the first

• 51:02Speaker 01

  probes to leave our inner solar system, okay? So they, they get out past the gravitational influences of the sun and they, they start passing out, passing beyond the Kuiper Belt. And when they do that, boy, did they find something. Now you, I'm surprised, I'm not surprised you haven't heard of it, actually very few have.

• 51:22Jesse Michels?

  What did they find?

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Well, the thing is funny about it is that if you go and look, look up Pioneer 10 and 11, you're not going to find very much information. And I don't want to necessarily just spend a lot of time going down a conspiracy road here, but I will tell you that it seems apparent that the internet was scrubbed of information regarding Pioneer 10 and 11.

• 51:45Jesse Michels?

  What evidence do you have?

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Well, there was an astronomer out of NASA, actually out of, yeah, named Thomas, two astronomers, one named Thomas Van Flannern and the other named Robert Harrington. Robert Harrington was a very, very important astronomer who worked for the Navy, sorry, not NASA, for the Navy.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Navy, he was a chief astronomer for the Navy.

• 52:08Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Well, he's studying the outer solar system. He gets a call one day from Thomas van Flandern. Thomas van Flandern is an astronomer as well, who's actually a very interesting man. I wish he got more attention. Uh, very smart, used to talk about even things like ancient history being different than we're told and things like that.

• 52:25Jesse Michels?

  Cool.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Very smart guy. Um, he calls up Robert Harrington, he's like, hey, Robert, you gotta check out this data from Pioneer 10. Right, there's something going on, um, in the outer solar system. And Robert, uh, Robert Harrington's like, okay, I'll look into it. And they look into this new data that's coming back from Pioneer 10 and they, their minds are blown. Okay, what Pioneer 10 found and 11 was not only a planet. Okay, now, I don't want this to be confused with things like, uh, Zecharia Sitchen's idea of Nabiru.

• 53:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  That, that was actually a whole nother story in itself of something I think was maybe even created to mislead this whole thing. Okay, there's no planet that comes through our inner solar system that would destroy everything, no. Um, but what they did find is a large planet beyond the Kuiper Belt. Okay, part of what is called the outer solar system. Not something that has a lot of information. In fact, the Kuiper Belt wasn't found until the early 1990s. It's relatively new that we even knew that, again, based on, uh, it's a lot of the data coming back from the Pioneer Probes, which started to leave that area in the eight, in the, in the, in the early eighties and through that period.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Now, there, in the nineties, there was an announcement by NASA, and I do believe this was a real announcement, where they did announce this planet and they called it Planet Nine or Planet 10 based on before Pluto got demoted. And they actually, and I don't, and anybody listening to this might remember that. There was, it was actually pretty widespread on the news. They're like, oh, there's this large, uh, planet beyond our sun that is, uh, very mysterious. It seems to have a mass based on gravitational influences of four to five times the size of Earth. Massive, huge planet, okay? Very weird and mysterious.

• 54:21Jesse Michels?

  Wait, where is it positionally? It's, it's beyond Pluto?

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Yes, way beyond Pluto.

• 54:26Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  It's in, it's way beyond our inner solar system and it's not part of the rotation around the sun at all. It's very, very mysterious, okay?

• 54:35Jesse Michels?

  So what sort of gravitational pull is it following?

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Well, wait, wait till you find out. This is where it gets wild.

• 54:41Jesse Michels?

  The same thing causing the wobble.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  This is where it gets wild. On this, in the same analysis, and remember Pioneer data was coming in in increments over time. As you're going further out, you get more data. So it's not like you know everything right away. It's like you're figuring things out. So the first thing they found was this planet. And they, they initially announced it. Okay, and everyone's like, whoa, whoa, how, how that, how could that be possible? Well, the interesting thing was that the, even the Kuiper belt, a lot of the objects in the Kuiper belt were being warped in their, in their, the way that they rotate their mass was being warped by something else. And they, some postulated that this planet was enough to even impact and affect some of these Kuiper belt objects. But there's more, though. The planet seems to be, seemed to be revolving around something.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Okay? And again, I very much encourage people to go and see this diagram so they don't think I'm full of crap when, in what I'm saying right now. Because, again, this 1987 encyclopedia showed the entire diagram. But the weird thing was, it was the only place that it ever existed ever again. All the data from Pioneer was essentially scrubbed after.

• 55:51Jesse Michels?

  What was it orbiting around?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Well, when scientists have studied our, the known universe. Okay, I'll say that because we only have a limited view of what we can see with distant stars. But when they've studied other stars like Sirius and other ones, Canis Major, they find out that 80% of all known stars are binary or trinary. Meaning that having a single star, our sun, is actually far more rare. You would have an 80% chance that wouldn't be the case.

• 56:21Jesse Michels?

  Are you saying we are in a binary solar system? There's another, there's another star that we're not aware of with another sun?

• 56:27Speaker 01

  And, but the thing is, that when, okay, when Pioneer 10 and 11 got far enough out beyond this planet that they detected, and if you can't see it, it's just based on its gravitational influences. Again, they never, you can't see like, oh, there's a bright planet flying by. It doesn't work that way. The planets, if they don't, planets are not illuminated by some kind of an object. They're black.

• 56:50Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  They're just, it's just the space is black and you don't even know, except the, the influence it has.

• 56:54Jesse Michels?

  Wouldn't James Webb pick it up?

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Well, again, the space is infinitely difficult to pin down a very specific part, and I can get into all the Caltech studies after that support this. Okay. Okay, so this is not just one area. Caltech has since jumped on top of this. You can go on Caltech's website and read all about how this planet is. What's the name of the planet? One of the, well, they don't have a name. They call it Planet 10. Originally, now Planet 9, based on the demotion of Pluto. Okay. Okay. Caltech actually, one of the astronomers there was basically said that he believes there's a 99% 9/9 chance that it exists based on its effects on the Kuiper Belt and other gravitational effects. And it's four to five times Yes. larger than the Earth. Okay, so NASA announces that.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Then they go completely quiet. They never announce anything else ever again from Pioneer 10. In fact, all data on Pioneer 10 and 11 past the Kuiper Belt beyond this Robert Harrington's work and Thomas van Flandern and 1987 Science and Intervention Encyclopedia became the only sources. It was very bizarre. If you have something of that much importance that finds things, to not have any information is again screaming towards some kind of a scrubbing of information, a hiding. Why would they cover this up? Well, because they found something. What'd they find? Well, according to the diagram in 1987 Encyclopedia,

• 58:24Speaker 01

  the way that Pioneer 10, and by the way, Pioneer 10 had these spectrometers onboard that were literally made to detect objects, which is very interesting because if they're investigating a tilt on Uranus and Neptune, clearly they're looking for something. Mm-hmm. Okay? Well, they detect a signature of, that was undeniable because there's specific wording in that diagram and it says, and I will quote, remember, Pioneer 10 and 11 went completely different directions in our solar system. They say they found equal pull. Doesn't matter where they were in our solar system.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  As they left, they found equal pull of something massive on our entire solar system. Something gravitationally is so powerful that it was basically influencing our entire solar system, including the Sun. Okay? And what they found, they called it a dead star. Okay, now it's not a brown dwarf. It was a dead star that had essentially maybe supernovated long ago. Whatever happened to it, it no longer had the fusion of a star like our sun, which is why you can't see it. It literally, now you know, there's only two things that can happen to a star when it dies, right?

• 59:47Speaker 01

  It either explodes, or it shrinks down into an unbelievably dense object. But that object still has very, very powerful gravitational influences. Black hole. Well, but not everything does that. Not everything just becomes a black hole. In fact, some scientists believe that those are more like at the center of galaxies, and different things like that. Instead, this object was identified as a dead star. Not as, but and they determined that the distance, you ready for this? Based on its influence at the time, and this is like 1984, in 1983,

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  that this data came back, because the encyclopedia came out in 87. They determined at that time that it was 50 billion miles from the Pioneer Probes. 50 billion miles, okay? Now, when that occurred, Thomas van Flandern and Robert Harrington found out about that. Now, all I will say is that they both died of throat cancer. Not, within a few years of each other, but they both died of throat cancer, they didn't smoke. And it was a very mysterious thing, because they were the only two people

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  that were investigating this outer planet and potentially this binary star companion. And then there was a man named Miles Standish, who was the head of, became a very prominent astronomer in the department. And he was like, everyone's like, wait a minute, what about this planet and all this stuff, right? Miles Standish did a bunch of calculations mathematically and was like, you know what, we made a mistake. Robert, Thomas van Flandern made a mistake, Robert Harrington made a mistake. Turns out all the data is wrong, and there's no planet that's out there. Boom. The thing just disappeared. And it was, and it like went completely silent. Everyone's like, okay, never mind.

• 1:01:53Jesse Michels?

  What's the motive to cover this up?

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Because I believe it's the entire reason why the great year exists and why we have resets of civilizations and why we have entire cycles of catastrophes and, uh, which is based, I believe, on what are known as the Yuga cycles out of India.

• 1:02:12Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  The Kali, they call, they call the Kali Yuga cycles based on civilizations rising and falling.

• 1:02:18Jesse Michels?

  We're in the Kali Yuga, right? But there are various Yuga cycles. Yeah.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So there, the, the Yuga cycles track the, the cycles of basically civilization rising and falling based on these ages during the great year. So you go from, right, you rise up to a golden age, you get wiped out, you fall back, and then you have to start up again from like an iron and bronze age, and then a silver age, and then a gold age, and then it resets itself. Well, what could possibly exist to keep a consistency of these cycles other than this? Now, think about this for a minute. If you, if you, if anyone's ever seen it, there's a documentary I highly recommend called The Great Year. Amazing. You can go actually watch it on YouTube. Uh, amazing, amazing documentary, has a great narrator,

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  uh, who just passed away recently. Um, very well known. Uh, I can't remember his name, name off my head. But, uh, in that documentary, I believe they got one thing really, really wrong, but they got everything else right. They postulated that the great year was based on a dance of, uh, our binary companion. But they, they thought it was Sirius. Now, that makes no sense to me at all because first of all, Sirius is so far away. It's, makes 50 billion miles of this binary look like it's in our, it's in our backyard. So that makes zero sense to me that that's related to the great year and the dance of our sun. So I want to just point that out. However, what does make sense is that this dead star having this massive dance.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Called perihelion and apohelion. Perihelion is when something comes the closest and apohelion is when it's leaving. Well, it turns out that in the Great Year documentary, ancient civilizations believed that that entire dance was based on, they called it our black sun. They called it, you ever heard of black hole, black sun?

• 1:04:12Jesse Michels?

  Well, black sun.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  David Bowie, right?

• 1:04:13Jesse Michels?

  Black sun's also kind of this age-old occult symbol.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  Well, it turns out there's some truth in this, that there was knowledge of a black, of a dark star.

• 1:04:24Speaker 04

  A partner star to our own sun? Some say the binary model confirms all of our celestial observations without the need for excessive torque or epicycle-type explanations. While the concept of a second sun challenges our present understanding of the solar system, it is hardly a new idea.

• 1:04:45Speaker 05

  There's one sun which is part of the planetary system and there's one sun outside the solar system. And this allows Mithras to both be the sun and also seem to be operating for the sun or on behalf of the sun.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  The ancients had some knowledge on it, there's different areas, even the, there's a whole bunch of areas that would be a whole part of the show, but I just want to say, and not getting that, but just say that basically, that there seems to be a dance between this dead binary star with our sun and every time, that dance is based on a 25,000, approximately 25,000-year full cycle. Now, half of that during perihelion is 12,500 years, when it comes the closest to our sun, in which I theorize that that is the reason why our sun goes through these massive

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  energetic explosions of if you have an object like our sun that is very, very powerful with like, like almost like a nuclear fusion type of energy, right? If you have a lot of energy coming towards it and gravitational influences, the only way it's going to be able to maintain itself is to be able to exhaust that energy, which is why I believe that this binary is the reason why these consistent events every 12,000, 12,500 years or so, you know, even, even 14, they're, they're all in that realm, are occurring on a consistent basis.

• 1:06:16Jesse Michels?

  But the Yugas are different lengths, aren't they?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  They're based on the rise and fall of civilizations consciously and they, and there's other, I'm not, that's not the only factor that goes into the Yugas. There's galactic center alignments, there's planetary alignments. It's not just one thing.

• 1:06:32Jesse Michels?

  And so it's not the weakening of the magnetosphere of the earth necessarily, it's the need for the sun to expel mass.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:40Jesse Michels?

  To do gravitational objects, moving towards it.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  Which then weakens.

• 1:06:43Jesse Michels?

  Which in turn then weakens.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  And I believe that is what caused the entire destruction of Mars. Because Mars used to clearly have water, clearly had life, right? You can actually see some images, if the rover images are actually even from Mars, that have trilobites in some of the areas on there. And one of the very well-known and accepted, you know, theories is that Mars once had an atmosphere. It took the brunt of a massive CME event that stripped the entire atmosphere and then basically had the water evaporate out into space and then it turned into this barren planet. But not only that, but it may have been based completely on a plasma events.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  And I want to just mention that is that there is a trench, a gorge on Mars called Vias Marineris, okay? That is, there's like five times deeper than the Grand Canyon, okay? And it is, the feather design of it may actually be based on a massive type of plasma-like events which can literally impact.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  Entire planets, if it's bad enough, and create scarring and even mountains. Based on if you they've shown studies with how electricity impacts things. They create like a feather like environment, or they even create bulges almost like types of emergencies of land moving up and down by by the types of energy that can impact it. Now Mars is covered in billions to trillions of just these rocks scattered across the planet, all over the planet, like they were thrown out in a lot left in the atmosphere, but then others literally fell back down onto the planet. And it looks like that that planet is is a perfect example of how these CMA CME events

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  can destroy an entire planet.

• 1:08:42Jesse Michels?

  So you realize the implications of what you're saying. You're saying that NASA figured out that we're actually living in these sort of civilizational cycles that we really have no control over. They're kind of these hard resets.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:08:53Jesse Michels?

  Maybe we're headed towards one right now.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  And in order to

• 1:08:56Jesse Michels?

  And they're hiding it.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  And in order to cover it up, they blocked all knowledge of the binary star companion so that that whole cycle would not be understood.

• 1:09:04Jesse Michels?

  That's insane.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Is it though?

• 1:09:07Jesse Michels?

  I don't know. I mean, I need to I need

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  If there was an asteroid

• 1:09:10Jesse Michels?

  To delve into the details.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  And I'm not I'm not saying this in apocalyptic way, because I would actually the next part of this is we should talk about how I believe we may be able to prevent that.

• 1:09:18Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  But what I mean is if you knew about if governments knew about a giant asteroid coming towards the Earth or a comet.

• 1:09:24Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Would they tell everybody?

• 1:09:26Jesse Michels?

  Maybe not, maybe not.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  Widespread panic.

• 1:09:29Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Complete dumb society collapsing.

• 1:09:34Jesse Michels?

  And you're of the opinion that this dead star is headed towards the sun now?

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:40Jesse Michels?

  And so do you have, you know, based on your

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Cycles of what we see in in ice cores throughout Antarctica and Greenland of a consistency.

• 1:09:50Jesse Michels?

  And what's your model of how much time we have left based on that?

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  We're right in it right now.

• 1:09:55Jesse Michels?

  So like.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Very interesting how consciousness seems to rise at the same time that the sun starts to emit more energy. And this gets into, like, again, lost civilizations, what they knew.

• 1:10:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Right? I actually believe that part of the function of the Great Pyramid of Giza and other structures was balancing the energy.

• 1:10:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  Of the earth.

• 1:10:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  And that maybe they had understood that these cycles exist because, okay, let me give you an example.

• 1:10:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  In Hermeticism, one of the core, there's these, there's these laws that exist. Hermeticism is ancient Greek knowledge from Hermes, which is basically just Egyptian knowledge as well. It's the same thing. They believe.

• 1:10:36Jesse Michels?

  Because Hermes was based on.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  Both.

• 1:10:38Jesse Michels?

  Exactly.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:10:39Jesse Michels?

  The Emerald Tablets.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  They believed that cycles govern everything. Okay? That the law of correspondence governs everything. That there's these, that there are these core concepts, right, that are woven into everything. They're just, that's the way it is, that's how it's designed. Right? And we can even get into the nature of that. I don't have a problem with that, with that. But that there is an actual, very intelligent design behind our universe and that the earth is actually a lot more important than we know. That it's part of, again, we are talking about like a soul incarnation place through Orion and that it's not just necessarily happening everywhere else, but that it's, this is a

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  very important place and that we are not the only ones that are governing that. That there's something higher that's governing the cycles here and balance. Because that's everything that's shown in these artifacts and things that we're about to talk about from around Lake Vonn, is it literally shows the same thing over and over and over again. It shows this balancing of everything, balance, and basically teaching humanity about the nature of who we really are. And being like bringing us back to the light like if we were if our if our soul journey was like basically starting at a higher place and then wandering through the darkness

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  and then eventually returning back to the light again all everything's based on cycles and it seems like we are the microcosm our journey here is like a microcosm of the entire macrocosm that in so we are playing a bigger role than we know and at the same token I believe that also lends itself to not having us be as afraid that we could just poof be wiped off and never exist again and it doesn't matter.

• 1:12:31Jesse Michels?

  Well, you you just implied that maybe the pyramid was some sort of possible preventative measure. I mean, are you familiar with Christopher Dunn?

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am very much so.

• 1:12:39Jesse Michels?

  So does that relate to this because he has this theory that, you know, the pyramid was maybe kind of an energy generation machine. He went on Rogan. I thought he made a pretty good case.

• 1:12:48Speaker 01

  Oh, I I support I support those connections in in many ways. For instance, under the Great Pyramid and under many of these structures, we have subterranean water like aquifers, right, that are basically as a conductor and they were they were covered in limestone and they had granite, which has the quartz in it. It seems very much a function of geometry and physics to create something.

• 1:13:08Jesse Michels?

  So but how would that save the earth?

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  Well, it didn't.

• 1:13:11Jesse Michels?

  This massive death star.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Well, it it didn't.

• 1:13:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  And I'm giving you an example. If you go to Saqqara, Egypt, right, you can go down to what's called the Serapeum. I'm sure you've heard of that, right?

• 1:13:21Jesse Michels?

  I actually have.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  Okay, so the Serapeum is this subterranean area. You can go there today as they do tours down there and you walk down in these all these steps to go down in there and you have these chambers under the ground that were carved out and in those chambers are these giant granite boxes, okay, built out of granite that came from Aswan and the granite is so large that it's bigger than the entrances to even go down in these places, which is completely mysterious on how they carved them, moved them, because these granite boxes weigh up to 100 tons.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  One ton is 2,000 pounds.

• 1:14:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  They're very, very mysterious. But anyway, there's a whole multitude of these, of these down there, and they have no evidence of any pharaoh or anyone being in them, like, like finding a mummy or anything, right? These chambers are mysterious, but what is interesting about them is that many of them were found blown up, like exploded, like a lot of energy had surged through and they blown them up. And if that's the case, then one of the things we're discussing is that maybe Egypt played a really pivotal role in trying to balance energy somehow.

• 1:14:40Jesse Michels?

  Why is that?

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  Well, that's based on what are called ley lines. Now, Geodesy is also based on that concept, is that the earth is what's called a toroidal field of energy, okay? So the energy of the earth, based on its magnetism properties, the energy flows out from Antarctica, down and comes up and in from the Arctic up in the north. So it's like this, right? Comes down like that. And that if you were able to understand the properties of Geodesy and properties of ley lines, that you could somehow build in specific places and maybe even balance them, harness them, have a way to build in coherence with the earth and the stars.

• 1:15:25Jesse Michels?

  But if you have a massive coronal mass ejection heading towards the earth, how much balancing can save you?

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, perhaps they tried, or they just were trying to survive, understanding that there was a previous event that their ancestors had known about.

• 1:15:42Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  And that gets into the entire discussion of Darren Cooey and Kay Mochley.

• 1:15:48Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Do you know where Darren Cooey and Kay Mochley are?

• 1:15:51Jesse Michels?

  No, who are they?

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  Well, their locations.

• 1:15:53Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  Okay, so this, this again gives the evidence for that the ancient people knew about these events, okay?

• 1:16:01Jesse Michels?

  Oh, Darren Cuyu is the underground tunnel in Turkey.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  So...

• 1:16:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, which, and Hancock even talks about how, you know, possibly a civilization went underneath there to protect themselves.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  A lot of people don't talk about Kaymakli, and I want to talk about both because they're very, the connection they have is absolutely fascinating. In southern Turkey, there's an area of soft volcanic stone. Now, most of the time, volcanic stone is hard, but this area, it was like a type of very soft kind of volcanic porous type of material that was actually really easy to carve. And it seems as though ancient civilizations, if they were global, which I believe they were, seemed to know that was the only place in the earth, based on its elevation, its location, and the stone, that they could easily, well, we say easily, but relatively easy compared to other environments, create massive subterranean areas. And I mean, massive.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  And so, in, within the last 40 years, there was a man in this, the city that became the underground city of Darren Cuyu, because there's this modern city built right on top of it. That's what's wild, is that they're like, living right above it and they didn't even know. He's, he's basically working on his apartment, and he knocks a wall down accidentally, and he opens up this doorway, opening, that he was like, trying to figure out what happened because he had chickens that wandered in and disappeared. It was really funny, actually. And he didn't understand where they were going or whatever. And so, he went down in and he ends up going, you know, calling and like, "I found something, archaeology, you gotta come see this."

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  So, they come over and they, and they were stunned to find the largest subterranean underground city, we call it a city, but subterranean area in the world. It, it had something like 30 levels of these interchanging, uh...

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  Tunnels but like rooms that had air shafts had entire ways to block off and seal the outside with these multi-ton stones that were basically fitted so you could roll them in front of the door. And they had areas for animals and animals, places for like education, like schools. And they had places for bedding and living and food storage. And they went to such great lengths that they built these underground cities so big that they could house over 20,000 people.

• 1:18:22Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  At one time.

• 1:18:23Jesse Michels?

  How big are they?

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  They're basically kilometers down.

• 1:18:28Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  They're enormous.

• 1:18:29Jesse Michels?

  Kilometers down, how far, like wide?

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Wide kilometer, wide like kilometer down. I don't have the exact dimensions of it. They're enormous though. Okay, and you can still go there today and there's a tourist attraction where you can obviously go down into Darren Kuyu, but they only let you see a couple of levels. Now here's the wild thing.

• 1:18:46Jesse Michels?

  Who figured out that 20,000 number?

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  They went and archaeologists that have access to all the levels have basically determined how many people could live in all of them. They mapped them out. You can actually find online diagrams where they show all of them interconnected. But it gets even more wild than that.

• 1:19:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  Darren Kuyu is not the only one. Turns out there's a whole bunch of underground cities in that region, but there's two main ones. The other, the sister city to Darren Kuyu is called Kai Makli, okay? Now Kai Makli was found just a few years later. But here's the wild thing. It's five and a half miles away, okay? Why is that wild? Because underneath Darren Kuyu is a main corridor. There's like a main corridor, like if you had buildings attached to each other, right? And there's a tunnel that goes from Darren Kuyu all the way to Kai Makli.

• 1:19:37Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Five and a half miles underground.

• 1:19:39Jesse Michels?

  Crazy.

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  Which means that those people knew enough about how they couldn't go above ground. Hey, I want to go see, I want to go see your cousin John in Kai Makli. I'm in Darren Kuyu, right? I haven't visited him in a long time. Why wouldn't they just go up and go around? Instead, they literally travel underground between them. And the only reason you would do that is if it wasn't safe to be above ground. And now, why wouldn't it's safe to be above ground? I don't think it's based on flooding. I think it's based on the concept of like a nuclear winter. Right, where you would basically be so volatile, not only like potentially radioactivity, but even things like a catastrophic climate that was just dipping all over the place and

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  like it was almost completely inhospitable to live out there. And the idea is that they built these to survive these events and that the only reason they did that is because a previous event their ancestors had survived through. And then they told them and like, you know, hey, if we're gonna survive the next one, we need to build these underground cities, which that area of Turkey is literally in the center of the ancient world.

• 1:20:50Jesse Michels?

  When do you think these underground cities were built?

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  That's the ultimate question, nobody knows. And here's the weird thing, none of the material from these giant underground cities that they excavated has ever been found. It's not like they went up to the front and they found like this huge pile of rock.

• 1:21:05Jesse Michels?

  Weird.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  Like, hey, look at that, we can, cause they could help.

• 1:21:07Jesse Michels?

  Why wouldn't some of, you know, their tools and stuff be preserved, given that it's underground?

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  Never, nothing has ever been found.

• 1:21:13Jesse Michels?

  Why is that?

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Well, because things degrade. We have to imagine geologic time.

• 1:21:17Jesse Michels?

  Underground, though, you'd assume maybe some of them.

• 1:21:19Speaker 01

  You still have mice and rats and things and you have water dripping and you, it's, we need to try to imagine, it's been 500 years, right, since, you know, we went through the industrial revolution and back to medieval times, back to then, and look at all we've achieved in that, okay? That 500-year period. Now imagine thousands and thousands and thousands of years.

• 1:21:45Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  You know, potentially 10,000 years. I believe that those were built well over 10,000 years ago, well over. I mean, they had to, to me, they had to have been built before the Younger Dryas catastrophes because there'd be no other, because we haven't had anything like that since.

• 1:22:02Jesse Michels?

  Well, that would be my, again, I'm not, I'm a total amateur when it comes to this stuff, but I would guess that a greater percentage of things would be preserved if the thing, it's an underground city than if it's above ground, there's just less environmental kind of.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Well, but the problem is they were reused. Okay, and this is where scientists are, what I believe have gotten the dating completely wrong.

• 1:22:23Jesse Michels?

  How do you know that they were used?

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Because when they went down, when they first found them and they went down in, they did find stuff. They found evidence of Hittites and evidence of ancient cultures that are not like ancient ancient. They're like mid ancient, right? So, you know, Hittites and different time period of that, we're talking like, you know, maybe 2,500, 3,000 years ago, right? They found evidence of residency from them, where they were maybe hiding from armies or going under there to, for many reasons. It was a very dangerous time. Many, much of the world, the Assyrian and Urartian and Medes culture and the Babylonians and all of these cultures were battling,

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  fighting. It was a very volatile time period in history. And so, yeah, you could have cultures try to hide down there. It wouldn't be the best idea, but I'm sure some did. And so, that may have actually been one of the reasons why it was kind of covered up and not found for a long time. Was because they were, it was one of those places they were kind of like hiding out or something, right? But scientists and archaeologists have determined based on finding that, that that's who built it. Which is kind of silly, right? If Jesse goes over to an ancient monument and puts his name on it, and then thousand years later, we find that Jesse's name is still like carved into it. Did Jesse build it?

• 1:23:47Jesse Michels?

  Not necessarily.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  No, if like, it doesn't, it's kind of a silly.

• 1:23:52Jesse Michels?

  But we can't know that it was built earlier also.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  Well, but the thing is, why would they do that? Why build a giant underground city and go to that kind of length of work? If you're just doing it to hide from an army somewhere?

• 1:24:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  Which they could literally just starve you out and like buck. It doesn't make sense. No, you could literally, they could, they could like pour oil and then just like set the whole inner place on fire. All these different means they could have done.

• 1:24:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  All various different horrible things they could have done. But the only thing that makes sense, if you look at the concentration of these underground cities and how it was a center of the ancient world, is that they would have. Had pilgrimages, knowing and reading the stars. Now that gets back to Gobekli Tepe. Because look at the pillars of Gobekli Tepe have, they're just basically star constellations.

• 1:24:37Jesse Michels?

  Isn't it like a sun calendar?

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  It's a calendar. It's an astronomical calendar, which I believe its purpose was, my personal opinion is its purpose was to track the great year. To track cycles. And it was, it was an astronomical spot that that was its purpose is to track cycles.

• 1:24:54Jesse Michels?

  What is the great year? Just the, the concept of a year?

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. Okay. So the great year is based on what's called the procession of the equinox.

• 1:25:01Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  It is because how the earth wobbles because of the gravitational influences of this binary companion. I told you the entire, the entire solar system is influenced, okay?

• 1:25:12Jesse Michels?

  This is fascinating. So basically this 26,000 year cycle where true north involves a different star. Right now it's Polaris.

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:22Jesse Michels?

  But what's the conventional astronomical, you know, explanation for why, you know, all these planets, uh, you know, have kind of wobbling gravitational orbits and how the entire axis of the solar system is actually on kind of a wobble tilted?

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  Not a lot of people talk about it. Um, you know,

• 1:25:39Jesse Michels?

  Is it literally just dismissed? Is there not some conventional? Cause like, there's certain things like how the moon was formed?

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Which is really mysterious, actually, by the way.

• 1:25:47Jesse Michels?

  Such BS. When you hear like the conventional explanation.

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  It came together perfectly and a perfect ratio between the sun and the moon and the earth. No, it's like,

• 1:25:54Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's like an asteroid like hit the earth and then part of the earth came out of here into this perfect, you know, thing.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  It's impossible.

• 1:26:01Jesse Michels?

  Makes no sense.

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  It's impossible.

• 1:26:03Jesse Michels?

  Into this thing that, you know, you never see the dark side of it. It's this perfect, you know, and it's one four hundredths the size of the earth. And it's 400 times closer to the earth than the sun. And it, it just doesn't, yeah, it does. The, the conventional explanation that you can kind of definitively say is wrong. And then I think where you have to be emistemically humble to me, at least I don't have a great theory, maybe you do. It's like, I don't know what formed that thing. But what's the conventional explanation for, yeah, the wobbling gravitational axis? The, the slanted gravitational axis of the entire solar system?

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  I think um uh the Milky, some kind of a Milky Way interaction of outer things and inner things with the sun. It's I never, I've never heard of anything definitive that's come from to explain that. If anything, I told you that Miles Standish had said mathematically, like, they were like, oh, they miscalculated all these things, and then people are like, oh, never mind. Like, it's been really weird.

• 1:26:55Jesse Michels?

  Can we track the emergence of the conventional explanation? Because I often think that's like a really important.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  Again, I'm not, I'm not an astrophysicist, so like, that would be a good question for others to, to bring up with that.

• 1:27:07Jesse Michels?

  You said, you said there was somebody at Caltech who's sort of convinced about it.

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, so, so Caltech.

• 1:27:10Jesse Michels?

  Because I want to interview that person.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't, I, I actually emailed him, and he never got back to me. And if he's listening to this, um, I'm, I'm still open to that reply.

• 1:27:18Jesse Michels?

  Send him his email, man, let's, let's figure out how to get in touch with him.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  There's a, there's a number of, uh, experts at Caltech that's, that use mathematics and based on, uh, data from probes to study an outer solar system, okay? And they determined that based on the movement of Kuiper belt objects.

• 1:27:35Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  That there's, they're being super skewed and, uh, pertur, perturbed by something, okay? And that the way that Caltech, and again, if anyone wants to look, just look up Caltech and Planet 10 or Planet 9, it used to be called Planet 10, then they, they demoted to Planet 9. Look into that, they have extremely compelling data that backs all this up, that mathematically Planet, Planet 10, I'm going to call it 10 because I think Pluto is, we should just keep it whatever, whatever it was, but, um, we'll call it Planet 10, uh, that it, it absolutely exists.

• 1:28:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  And again, why would you have a planet that's completely rogue, that's not part of another system?

• 1:28:11Jesse Michels?

  Well, I'm just even thinking, again, my stupid math, right? Like, the sun only has so much gravitational pull. Pluto is part of the sun's, you know, gravitational, uh, field of influence because it's so small.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Well, it looks like it was a moon of Jupiter that got thrown out beyond that area.

• 1:28:28Jesse Michels?

  Right, but things, you know, like, my guess would be that something four to five times the size of the Earth, that's beyond the perimeter of Pluto even.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  Oh, way beyond.

• 1:28:38Jesse Michels?

  Might, might have trouble being a part of the sun's.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  Why would it be part of, exactly. It would, it makes no sense. In fact,

• 1:28:44Jesse Michels?

  I don't, I don't know, but I

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  The sun plays.

• 1:28:47Jesse Michels?

  Do the math on it.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Exactly. There's no influence that far out at that point. We're talking about something that would be like, doesn't make any sense that it would be having a consistent type of elliptical orbit.

• 1:28:59Jesse Michels?

  What's the, do we know the conventional explanation there?

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  Well, no, they've tried to deny that it exists. That's, as I've said, Caltech is the only modern institute that's supporting that.

• 1:29:07Jesse Michels?

  This thing gets announced in the 90s.

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:29:09Jesse Michels?

  Sorry to harp on that. I think it's so important.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  I know, it's incredibly interesting.

• 1:29:12Jesse Michels?

  So it gets announced in the 90s, NASA's like, this is thing, you know, it's planet 10 or whatever. And then, okay, Standish comes in and then he's like, it's actually, forget about it. And so planet 10 goes away too?

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:23Jesse Michels?

  Planet 10, like people forget about planet 10?

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Because of, I'm telling you, it's because of Miles Standish with this whole idea that mathematically they made a mistake and then it never existed.

• 1:29:33Jesse Michels?

  Pioneer never shot planet 10. It was ju, they never, they never got footage of it. It was just based on these. It was just based on these, the wobbling, you know, the gravitational influence.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  And data is very easy to, here.

• 1:29:45Jesse Michels?

  Wait, but.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  Here, take a, take a look at this. I think it would probably be helpful for you to look at that. That, that's the page from it. I think it'd be cool for you to see it.

• 1:29:53Jesse Michels?

  Yep. Yep. Pioneer 10 became the first craft to pass into interstellar space in 1983. The diagram shows the path of the two Pioneer probes. On the right, the pictorial plaque carried by Pioneer 10 contains information about Earth and humanity.

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  But it says nothing about the diagram, which is so wild. You see that?

• 1:30:15Jesse Michels?

  So I'm looking at the diagram.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  If you read the article.

• 1:30:17Jesse Michels?

  Planet, 4.7 billion miles.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  And then look at the dead star. Do you see how it says equal gravitational pull on here?

• 1:30:25Jesse Michels?

  Equal pull, yeah. Whoa.

• 1:30:27Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:30:27Jesse Michels?

  That's really trippy. And this is an official NASA release?

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  This is, this is from, again, the Science Intervention Encyclopedia was in a very prominent encyclopedia series. Some, some listening to this probably still have some in their basement. They used to come out with volumes every year and it would, they would update them and it was like a very, very prestigious. It's not like a obscure encyclopedia. It was a very prestigious encyclopedia set. And they're becoming very rare now.

• 1:30:55Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:30:56Speaker 01

  But some people still have them. And if you do, I would, I would recommend holding on to that.

• 1:31:00Jesse Michels?

  And if, so in a binary star system. These stars often like move around each other like like

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  They dance. They do a dance. Now, The Great Year, again, I highly recommend people watch that documentary called The Great Year.

• 1:31:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  It shows that dance beautifully. Now, this dead star seemed to have a massive elliptical orbit. I mean, we're talking an elliptical orbit so big that we never can observe it.

• 1:31:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Ever. We can never see it.

• 1:31:26Jesse Michels?

  Are there any big proponents of this theory now that like have tons of data behind it?

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  Very strange that all I've seen is Caltech investigating this planet.

• 1:31:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  But there's been, from what I gather, very little on anything else. Um, and I, uh, that's why I wanted to preserve that image on my website.

• 1:31:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  So that something like that couldn't die because it looked like it was being like completely scrubbed. And I'm telling you, the weirdest thing about it is, you saw that diagram, right? Showed, the weird, the weird thing is that diary, that, that article, even in the encyclopedia, says nothing. Why would you include a diagram that has information that would completely blow up all of science itself and not say anything? To me, the only thing that makes sense, the only one thing, is that somebody wanted to keep that in there, but they weren't allowed to say anything. Well, how else does that make any sense? I mean, that would be an entire article itself, right?

• 1:32:23Jesse Michels?

  Who are these two astronomers again?

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  Thomas van Flandern and Robert Harrington.

• 1:32:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  They were the ones who spearheaded looking into this planet, and I believe even the binary star.

• 1:32:32Jesse Michels?

  They both died of throat cancer.

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  And they both died of throat cancer.

• 1:32:34Jesse Michels?

  What years did they die of throat cancer?

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  I don't remember off my head. They died in the 90s, though.

• 1:32:38Jesse Michels?

  Okay. Right after this discovery, pretty much?

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  Right, basically. And then Miles Standes was like, hey, by the way, everything's mathematical and miscalculated.

• 1:32:54Speaker 00

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• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  ... and it's all wrong. And everyone's like, "Okay, never mind."

• 1:33:47Jesse Michels?

  Oh, man, that's so crazy.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  Isn't that wild?

• 1:33:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  And so it's, in my last book, The Stage of Time, I end up, I mention in there that they're sort of like unsung heroes that are forgotten and that I think deserve to be remembered.

• 1:34:00Jesse Michels?

  Were they trying to get this out as they're being kind of marginalized?

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  I believe so.

• 1:34:05Jesse Michels?

  Miles Standish?

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  I believe they were writing a whole series of scientific papers in collaboration with each other.

• 1:34:11Jesse Michels?

  Is anybody in touch with their families or something?

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  You know, I'm not sure. If anyone's listening to this that knows, I know that they had stumbled onto something very, very major. And it's just, I'm not saying that necessarily, I don't want to come across as like they were murdered necessarily, but it was very mysterious how they both died.

• 1:34:28Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  And then, and then after, Miles Standish just proves the whole thing mathematically, nobody ever investigates it, it just dies out.

• 1:34:36Jesse Michels?

  What's his background, Standish?

• 1:34:37Speaker 01

  He became a prominent astronomical figure within the NASA community.

• 1:34:43Jesse Michels?

  Before we go on, I should say that personally, I haven't seen an abundance of evidence for this binary star system theory that Matt's proposing. But there are ancient civilizations that echo this belief, and even some pretty credible modern astronomers who believe it's possible.

• 1:34:58Speaker 06

  Roughly half of the stars you find in the universe are alone, and the other half... are in groups and often the groups consist of two. One of the stars might have evolved enough so that it has died and has become a white dwarf and then lost a lot of its heat and became faint as well. But if it's sufficiently far away and sufficiently faint, then it would just sit there and maybe orbit the sun within a few thousand years. Who knows? I cannot have any positive opinion about this, but I would not rule it out.

• 1:35:29Speaker 04

  Perhaps we've already seen our sun's binary companion, but clinging to all theories kept us from realizing it.

• 1:35:37Speaker 06

  If the earth were a perfect sphere, there would be no precession because there would be no way to apply that torque on the earth. But since the earth spins, it makes itself oblate by that spinning, so it has bulges on the equator. So this leads to a net force which would want to put the earth upright. That's what the earth doesn't allow it to do, but the earth cannot completely escape that pull from the moon and instead of being positioned upright, it will shift the orientation of the axis. In other words, it will cause this precession.

• 1:36:09Jesse Michels?

  All of that's to say, I would maybe hold this theory as somewhat low probability, but incredibly impactful if true. And I would urge every audience member to please research this, the possible scrubbing of the Pioneer mission from NASA and the important stories of Thomas van Flandern and Robert Harrington. Okay, I want to get into some of the similarities.

• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  I know, we got off on like a whole lot.

• 1:36:31Jesse Michels?

  A crazy tangent. And I know that's not what you spend all your time on. So you've uncovered some amazing ancient architecture in eastern Turkey, and this architecture seems to comport with all sorts of sites all over the world.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:44Jesse Michels?

  So it is kind of proving out this Graham Hancock hypothesis.

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:36:48Jesse Michels?

  Around this proto-civilization that may have existed because you say that a lot of the techniques are in terms of how they build, the structures.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  And the motifs and symbols.

• 1:36:55Jesse Michels?

  The motifs and symbols themselves line up perfectly, so.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:37:00Jesse Michels?

  What evidence do we have of this?

• 1:37:01Speaker 01

  So you have that in front of you and you want to pull that up and you can look at it while I'm talking to you.

• 1:37:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  Um, so I, to start with, my expertise primarily had been focused a lot of my life over the last 20 years with. Really becoming a try to be as much of an expert as I can on ancient cuneiform languages. Now, cuneiform is not a language, it's a writing style. It's a type of wedged writing style that was adopted or emerged out of the Mesopotamian region. So if we think of languages like Sumerian is the first language that we know ever existed on earth, right? It's a type of cuneiform language. And that survived because they etched in these symbols into clay and stone, which can last enormous amounts of time, thousands of years, in comparison to paper, which only lasts

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  500 to 1,000 years. It's a, it's a much more efficient way to record information. Now, when I was studying the ancient Sumerian civilization, who by the way invented nearly everything. They invented astronomy, animal husbandry, agriculture, mathematics. They were the ones who first came up with like trigonometry and understanding the solar system. Oh, yeah. It came out of Babylon, but Babylon got it from Sumer. That's where, if you saw that recent-

• 1:38:17Jesse Michels?

  What's your line between, because I know people talk about just the Fertile Crescent being the cradle of civilization, but what's your line between Sumer and Babylon?

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  Babylon had what was called an old kingdom and a new kingdom. So it looks like there was an older, even an older part of Babylon as well. I want to point out that most ancient places in the world, if they weren't buried under some pile of debris or something like that, they were rebuilt upon. Because it seems like the predecessors that came always knew there was something sacred and special about them. And that was something we see all over the world, which is why so much confusion exists in the archaeological world for who originally built them. And that's, that came out of that region. Now, I was particularly interested in the Sumerians. Because the Sumerians had all these mysterious designs, which by the way, their ziggurats look exactly like that step pyramid design.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Okay, it's exactly, it's basically the same design.

• 1:39:13Jesse Michels?

  I thought ziggurats had seven levels.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  Well, they're not this, they're not, the step pyramids can have more than three levels. Some of them can have seven. It's based on that step, step design. Design though, okay, now we see those seven levels in things like um Medain Salay in Saudi Arabia, which I showed you images from that as well. But the original teaching seems to have come out of this concept of these three levels, and I can talk about that concept of three as we go forward. However, so when I was studying the ancient Sumerian stories, one of the things I focused on is what was our ancient history? Like, these are the oldest writings ever written. They had these incredible stories in these cuneiform tablets, okay?

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Things like the Autrehasus, the Enuma Elish. I'm sure you've heard of the Epic of Gilgamesh.

• 1:40:03Jesse Michels?

  Of course.

• 1:40:03Speaker 01

  And all these stories, many, many more, right? Eridu, Genesis, Myth of Madapa, Legend of Atana. But they all have these like nuggets of truth within them. Now, a lot of archaeologists would tell you that those were just based on myths. And you even find out that a lot of the Christian stories, like the Deluge and the Noah story, where it has nothing to do with the original Christianity. It was adopted from these ancient Sumerian stories. And you can see the comparisons, right? If you read the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Autrehasus, and then you compare the flood story, it's like literally almost identical to Genesis. It's clearly it came from that, okay? Now, if you want to get to the core of something, you need to go back to the earliest form of it, if you want to understand that story.

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  Now, I became pretty obsessed with understanding who are the best translators in the world, what the forgeries were, the false stuff, right, which exists too.

• 1:40:57Jesse Michels?

  Real quick, what gives you confidence that the Epic of Gilgamesh was actually the inspiration for the story of Noah and the ark and the flood?

• 1:41:04Speaker 01

  Well, because the Epic of Gilgamesh contains the original flood story, but it's from Gilgamesh, who is from a later time period. He's from this second iteration that emerged out of that region. Not the original Sumerians, but he's from a civilization that emerged out of this Ur. They call them like the Ur civilization, or Ur the Second. It's a, it's an area that he was basically a king or a tyrant. The king of the city of Ur, okay? Ur and Uruk, in that area. Now, He writes from an earlier time period because in the Epic of Gilgamesh, he's trying to seek, he's trying to find the secrets of immortality by going to find a very specific character. And this is what I traced and tracked across all of these texts, but not coming from the

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  lens of like hearsay. I found the best translators in the world who had translated them, such as George Smith in 1875, and then Stephanie Dallian and others who have come along like Samuel Kramer, who are the best Assyriologists in the world. A Assyriologist is a term that is a blanket term that includes Sumerian though. They just call themselves a Assyriologist.

• 1:42:10Jesse Michels?

  Because George Smith was like the first person to translate.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  He was the first. He was the one who cracked the Sumerian code. Now, to give people some understanding, we had this time period of, of not knowing at all what these, these texts said. Okay, so Sumerian is what's called, it's called Atlantic Language Isolate. It doesn't share an alphabet or similarities, many similarities, very, very small similarities with any language on the earth. It's basically like an alien language. And, and a man named Austin Henry Laird came along in 19, in 1848, and he stumbled across this ancient library called the, the Royal Asher Bunnapal Library. Okay?

• 1:42:56Speaker 01

  The Royal Asher Bunnapal Library is very unusual in the case that it doesn't get a lot of interest. You know, a lot of people talk about the Library of Alexandria, but the really, I feel like the Library of Asher Bunnapal should get a lot more interest, along with even the great libraries of Ebla, which is another ancient city in Syria. But these were, these were libraries that had massive amounts of cuneiform tablets that weren't just from that civilization, but they were from many, many civilizations. Asher Bunnapal was a very, very powerful king, but he was also a priest. And he, he was, he existed during what we think of as the Assyrian time period. Okay?

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  So he was an Assyrian king, but they were, there were earlier time periods before him. There was an Akkadian time period, then there was a Sumerian time period. So if we were going to look at it in like a timeline. There was the emergence of a Sumerian civilization, then an Akkadian, then an Assyrian, and a Babylonian, right? So we have this time period that is around four to 6,000 years old. And in that time period, Ashurbanapal comes into power and he's like, "These stories are incredible, they're connected to my ancestors, Sinakariv and my father, Tigress and all these other guys, and I want to understand like the most important stories of mankind," right?

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  He recognizes that they are bar none, the most important stories, and I agree with him. And so what he did is he amassed these armies, thousands of people, and he goes out to every part of Mesopotamia, to every ancient city, gathers all the tablets, all together. He brings them back, creates the greatest library ever known to man, called the Royal Ashurbanapal Library. So in 1848, 1849, Austin Henry Laird is excavating the ancient city of Nineveh, in what today is Mosul, Iraq. And they're digging down, digging down, and they find like those huge Lamasu statues and everything, and they find, which by the way are 40 tons each, they find this royal

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  library with thousands and thousands of cuneiform tablets, specifically 40,000 to be exact, okay? Now, they're not all like the same level of importance. Some are like talking about laws and governing and you know, like shekels and bushel, how much a wheat, a bushel of wheat would cost and, because they, agriculture was their basis of currency. By the way, that's where currency came from. The first currency on earth came from the Sumerians and it was called a shekel. It was based on a bushel of wheat, because they were an agricultural civilization who would actually, were the founders who created civilization itself. So Austin Henry Laird finds this library, okay? Finds thousands of tablets, including the Epic of Gilgamesh.

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  And he finds like Sumerian king list, and he finds Otrahasis, all of these things, but they had no idea how to read it, because the Sumerian language had died out over a thousand years before. Imagine a thousand years going by, where...

• 1:46:11Speaker 01

  Nobody remembers how to, how to read something. Okay, and so they have no idea what it says. Here comes George Smith. George Smith gets a hold of these. He brings it back to the British Museum. He spends the next 10 years, 10 years studying them. Trying to understand what, how to, how to read this language. George Smith is a hero. He's one of the greatest unsung heroes of, of history that the world does not know. George Smith ends up doing something brilliant. He realizes that he's never gonna crack the Sumerian code on its own. So what he does is he backtracks. He goes to the only known language that has even somewhat similarities in, in its way. And that's Assyrian and Akkadian cuneiform.

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  So he goes back to those stories and he basically takes and understands some of the similarities with things like the akar, which means mountain house and other things. And he backtracks and he figures out how to, he cracks the Sumerian code essentially. And it's described that when he cracked, the first tablet he ever, this first set of tablets he ever cracked was actually the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is, brings us full circle back to where we started. Anyway, he figures that out and he starts reading and you get these fantastic stories, right, of massive floods and ancient kings who ruled for enormous amounts of time and disasters that wiped out a previous age and then there's another emergence of civilization that comes after all these stories.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  Now, when archaeologists, and that by the way was like 1875, when archaeologists get a hold of this, they are like, there's no way that these things were real. Not only did they believe that the stories were just allegories, because there's allegorical nature of them, right? Gilgamesh is talking about fighting the bull of, right, the bull of the, of, of Taurus and everything. Those are metaphysical journeys that have astrological connections. Okay, agreed, of course.

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  But then it mentions that Gilgamesh is a king of the city of Uruk. You're like, wait a minute, Uruk was found, it's a real city. And other things, and you, the, the, the part that I come in is in studying these and finding the best versions possible, and then saying, well, what aspects of truth and, and aspects of literalism are in here, and can they help us piece together our ancient past? And that's where this whole story of connecting to Eastern Turkey came from. Cause as I'm studying all the tablets and then cross referencing, saying like, look, Atana, the legend of Atana, he's, it describes that he emerges after the great Deluge and

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  and builds the first city called Kish, that's after this great time period of when the original five cities were built.

• 1:48:58Jesse Michels?

  When's the legend of Atana?

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  The legend of Atana is like, say, 4,000 years ago, 3,500 years ago, right?

• 1:49:05Jesse Michels?

  And then what, what specifically, but why are you high conviction that the Noah thing is connected?

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  Okay, so let me get to that.

• 1:49:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  So in that, there's these moments where they have distinctions of events occurring and things happening, okay? Gilgamesh was not part of the Sumerian time period. Again, he's from this, the Uruk, Uro time period, but he knew about his ancestors and he knew about that to such a degree that the entire premise of the Epic of Gilgamesh is him going to seek immortality because his friend Enkidu dies and he ends up being worried about his own mortality, okay? So what he does is, he specifically goes to find a man, a man named Utan de Pishthim, okay? Now that, that character, it was also called Zaius Sudra in ancient Sumer.

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  You find out that he's the original hero, what's called the Autrehasis. He's where the whole Noah story came from. You can lacrosse reference those stories, they're nearly identical. And it's not just one, it's, you have the legend of Itsubar, you have the, the, um, the myth of Adapa, you have Eridu Genesis, you have Sumerian King List, you have Autrehasis. In Epic of Gilgamesh that all mention the same flood, the same characters, and the same cities. Okay? Now-

• 1:50:28Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  Oh, and that's where, that's where I funneled into this and I became-

• 1:50:32Jesse Michels?

  The Epic of Gilgamesh is the first that-

• 1:50:34Speaker 01

  The first one was translated, not the oldest tablet.

• 1:50:36Jesse Michels?

  Not the oldest tablet.

• 1:50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the first translated, but the reason why it's so important is that for a great deal of time, for the last hundred and twenty, hundred and thirty years, archaeologists have bonded this impression that the cities mentioned, the very early cities mentioned, were a myth. Okay? Weren't real. Something like Troy, right? Troy was considered a myth.

• 1:50:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:00Speaker 01

  That Greeks never fought Troy and that it was just an allegorical story, kinda like the whole Plato thing. And yet, in the eighteen-

• 1:51:08Jesse Michels?

  Seventy, eighteen seventy-one.

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  They find Troy.

• 1:51:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. I love these stories because it's like, yeah, it's, we just, we take everything as allegory and myth and, you know, whatever, but it's just painting over our modern kind of ideas with, you know,

• 1:51:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:22Jesse Michels?

  The, the, the past with that sort of, you know, myopic brush.

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:51:26Jesse Michels?

  And you don't need to be, and the expert sort of defends that and then like the kind of amateur can stumble into the actual truth, actually, which is a beautiful thing.

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  And that's, I became obsessed with these tablets. Every single one I could read, every version, because there was different versions of them. For instance, the Babylonians wrote a version of the Ennumelalish that the original Sumerians and Akadians had written. And there was slight deviations in the story based on the greatness of Marduk, who's the patron god of Babylon versus Enki, who's the patron god of Eridu. It's, but you, you can weave those out by saying, oh, I know this is the earlier version, so I can understand how this got a little bit altered, right? So that's what I do. I've been doing that for twenty years. So, in my investigations, I found that, that the original city of Eridu is described as the first city ever created on earth. Literally, the first city created.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  Well, late eighteen hundreds, they find Eridu. Okay? Very mysteriously, there's a ziggurat that's an entire mountain of Eridu that has this city below it, right? They usually had a temple with a city below it.

• 1:52:31Jesse Michels?

  What modern day country is Eridu in?

• 1:52:32Speaker 01

  It's in Iraq.

• 1:52:33Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  So it's, it's in the whole war-torn region that I can't get to and I have a whole campaign on my website.

• 1:52:39Jesse Michels?

  What part of Iraq?

• 1:52:40Speaker 01

  It's it's near the the confluence of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers in southern Iraq.

• 1:52:46Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:52:46Speaker 01

  Um, west of, you know, west of Baghdad. So in the late 1800s, they find Eridu and they only excavate the main part of the city. They find tablets and everything they bring to the British Museum. They never excavate the Eridu Ziggurat. And then, and I ended up, just to give a little sidebar, I ended up going on this campaign that's on my website called uh, the campaign to say it Eridu because I end up finding all these photographs of the last 10 years of locals going in and just pillaging.

• 1:53:15Jesse Michels?

  Oh.

• 1:53:16Speaker 01

  Pillaging the site and literally there's tablets sticking out of the ground.

• 1:53:20Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  And they're just like selling them on the black market and the whole site has no fences, nothing protecting it and it's like it was abandoned.

• 1:53:29Jesse Michels?

  Um, is that still the case now?

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:53:31Jesse Michels?

  Completely, oh, God.

• 1:53:32Speaker 01

  It's very, very sad and they end up going in during World War Two, uh, in 1940s.

• 1:53:38Jesse Michels?

  First city in recorded history.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  Which was considered a myth.

• 1:53:42Jesse Michels?

  Well, not ever because you think there was maybe a civilization prior.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  Well, no, this is the thing is that I'm believing that Sumer was not when we're told.

• 1:53:49Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:53:50Speaker 01

  Is that what we think of as the time period of Sumer is actually a far later time period of the Assyrians and Akadians.

• 1:53:56Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  Not the same time period at all.

• 1:53:59Jesse Michels?

  So how old do you think Sumer?

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  I think, I think the ancient Sumerians are well over 12,000 years ago, which is why they essentially invented everything.

• 1:54:07Jesse Michels?

  So when, when do you think, or is it just impossible to say?

• 1:54:10Speaker 01

  I, based on geodesy and aligning temples of in ancient Sumer, like, uh, in Iraq and different, and Eridu and different things, I've had people email me and there's been studies done online during, with using geodesy alignments with cardinal points and different things where, and no longer has any connection to like the, the, like true north at all. And that where it's aligned, true north was like I said, in Greenland, which was, you know, well over 12,000 years ago, which then gives us potential age as being, you know, maybe 20,000 years old or more. Yes, and that's why I

• 1:54:49Jesse Michels?

  Do we have anything beyond, because I know the critics are gonna say you need more than astronomical alignment.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Oh, of course.

• 1:54:57Jesse Michels?

  And do we have anything beyond that?

• 1:54:59Speaker 01

  Well, we have these sets of teachings and motifs that seem to emerge and then spread around the world. Like core knowledge, it's very important about us and our, the solar system and different things. And that's one of the things we can use, but again, there's more evidence work we'll get into in a minute. Let's just, we'll put a pause on that for a second, okay? Now, they find Eridu. And it's like, all of a sudden, it's not a myth anymore. And that's pretty mysterious and not super cool in the whole understanding of ancient history. And it was a very, very sad story with Eridu. And it's how it was abandoned and the ziggurat was like very, like literally never excavated.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  Now, and I got a chance to go to the Penn Museum this past year and see a lot of those artifacts from Eridu in their original form. And I'm writing a book right now on this whole Turkey connection with Sumer. I'm in the middle of it called The Missing Key of History, The Lost Era Civilization. I have the whole connection back between that. So they ended up not excavating the ziggurat at all. And it was a very sad story, as I had mentioned, where they sort of moved forward and they come back previously during World War II. And they're shown like walking around Eridu. And we have, if you just go on Wikipedia and you look up Eridu, you can see, excuse me.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  Hold on a second.

• 1:56:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, no worries.

• 1:56:27Speaker 01

  If you go on Wikipedia and you just look up Eridu, you can see basically the photographs of it and how they're walking around, there's bricks sticking up out of the ground and everything. But the reason I mention that is that previously that city had been considered a myth, okay? It was like, oh, that's not real, and then they find it. Well,

• 1:56:47Jesse Michels?

  How do we know that that's Eridu?

• 1:56:48Speaker 01

  Oh, they established they found tablets that actually said the name Eridu on it in many, many places. So that's not disputed. They know they found Eridu. Now, now this is where the next part of this comes from. I had been studying this particular aspect of the tablets that is one of the core values of all of them, which is this original Noah flood story, right? Gilgamesh going to seek the flood hero, as he calls it in there, okay? And his name in Epic of Gilgamesh is Untepishtem, but his original Sumerian name is Zayasudra. Now, they had different names in different eras, but it's the same person. Now, you learned that Zayasudra was, and there's Sumerian king lists that has the whole breakdown,

• 1:57:33Speaker 01

  and you can go through all of this, like, that's established. If you want to look, you can find it, is that turns out, he was a son of the last king that ruled these first five cities existed. Eridu is the first, Shurupac was the last city, okay? And you find out in the Sumerian king list, that it was ruled by a man named Ubartutu. Now Ubartutu's son was the Noah figure. It was, his name was Zayasudra Untepishtem. Now, for ease of all this, let's just call him Noah, okay? Because that way, people can understand what I'm saying easier from now on. Those are his original names. Now, you learned that in those stories, that Ubartutu had stepped down at the end of his

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  reign, and this figure had come in and ruled over Shurupac very briefly. He was both a king and a priest, okay? Not like the Russell Crowe version where they show where he's like some primitive Stone Age man or something. He was actually a very high priest, in a sage, and very, very wise and knowledgeable, which is why the actual tablet that he supposedly wrote, called the Autrehasis, literally means "very wise," okay? So he was a great sage, very, very knowledgeable. Now, it's described in this, that in the stories, again, like the allegorical stories, the myths that they say, that number one, Shurupac wasn't real.

• 1:59:03Speaker 01

  And number two, that this figure was never real. Both were not supposed to be real at all, okay? Except that in 1931, Shurupac was found. Now, before I go into that story, I will start by saying that this figure, in the stories and all the tablets, it discusses how this Noah figure, the sage, Zayasudra...

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  He ends up learning that there's this great deluge coming that's gonna wipe everything out. He was warned, hit through this various means that, and you can get into the tablets, how they were supposedly, there's a pact where they weren't, they weren't, they weren't supposed to warn humanity, they, where Ziusu was warned, and in the story, he is just told to build this massive cedar craft boat. It's very, very explicit details on how long the planks should be, and how it should be sealed with what's called bitumen. Now, bitumen is something we use in construction even today. It's a type of epoxy-like type of adhesive

• 2:00:08Speaker 01

  that's very, very, very, um, strong. And they, he was told to build something and seal it off, they say, like the abzu. The abzu is like the underworld. So, completely seal it off, bring just your animals and your family. Okay, so, and then the horse, Christianity turns it into like, two animals of every kind, and all this stuff, and it completely derails from what the original story that's echoed throughout Mesopotamia is the core of this, is that he was told to basically, your family and you are gonna help be part of the seeds of humanity in the future. Cause there's gonna be an event that comes through that's gonna basically wipe everybody out, okay? So, that story is that he builds it,

• 2:00:52Speaker 01

  he doesn't tell anybody, everybody knows dies. His family gets on, they just have like their goats and their whatever, and they survive a certain amount of time, and they end up landing in the Mount Ararat region, okay, of Armenia, Turkey area. That is where the tablets sort of end, because a lot of them were broken and damaged, and when George Smith translated the Epic of Gilgamesh and others, there was areas where they have like, line is missing, line is missing, line is missing, that's what it literally says. Where they had no idea what it says. The only thing we know is that there were these, they described

• 2:01:32Speaker 01

  them as Anuna gods, the ancient gods of that time, that descended down to the Mount Ararat or wherever he is, and basically get into this argument over how humanity was supposed to be destroyed. And how Enki had warned the Noah figure, and that eventually they come to an agreement that, this is what it says, is that because- This figure had survived and his sons had survived and that they would repopulate a lot of the world, that he would be given immortality. That's essentially what the stories end with, is that the Noah figure gets immortality. Now, let's go forward, thousands of years. Now you have the Akaba Gilgamesh, which has the flood story rewritten in it.

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  But in that, you learn that Gilgamesh is very interested in understanding how to obtain immortality. The reason is, is that there's an obscure tablet called the Death of Billagames. And it is a tablet, and Billagamesh is another name for Gilgamesh. And you find out in that, that these Anuna gods had given the Noah figure, Zayasudra, he was the last man ever to get immortality. They said that no human will ever get immortality again, and we essentially will have to die like mortal beings, okay? That's how you know that. That's how you know that that's the last figure in history that gets immortality, okay? So again, going forward, there's these elements of truth in there, it's like, it's like wild

• 2:03:01Speaker 01

  to try to be like, wait a minute, so did these things actually happen? Is that an allegory? Well, there's a clue that's in the Epic of Gilgamesh that's on like Tablet 10, that almost nobody gets to. Because they have to wade through all the astronomical things and him fighting the monster and like his journey with Enkidu, and they're like, oh, that's, none of that makes sense if it was real, and you're like, well, no, it's probably not, it's an allegory. Except until you get to a certain part. In that, buried in that tablet, is a moment where you get to Gilgamesh going to, he says he wants to seek out the flood hero, Untepishtem, to learn the secrets of immortality.

• 2:03:46Speaker 01

  Then you start being like, wait a minute, so there's some real aspects to this, right? And so what happens is, do you know the Greek ferry, ferry boatman, ferryman of the underworld, right? Sharon? Have you seen that, where he's got the staff and he's got the hood, and he's like, you're gonna put two gold coins on to ferry in the underworld?

• 2:04:04Jesse Michels?

  The river Styx.

• 2:04:05Speaker 01

  That came from the Epic of Gilgamesh. That was the oldest recorded record of that, I think the Greeks came later. This was, this was an earlier time period where that first iteration of that, that concept came from. And in that, Gilgamesh seeks out and finds the ferryman. Again, this is a weird concept to think like, is this a metaphysical journey? How is this even possible, like, to be in the underworld and do this? That part is mysterious, of course, and I think we still don't understand certain aspects of reality.

• 2:04:37Jesse Michels?

  Well, yeah, I mean, that would be like the Persephone's quest.

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:04:42Jesse Michels?

  You know, kind of proverbial mystery ritual or something.

• 2:04:44Speaker 01

  Well, and then there's this part, though, that comes up that's key to this whole thing. It's key. And in that, Gilgamesh gets, goes to Sharon and gets on the boat and he pays him and he ferries him into the underworld. Because it turns out, no being can be immortal and live in a mortal world, in a material world. All organic matter breaks down. And so the only way that Untapistim, the Noah figure, the only way he could ever be immortal is to live in the underworld. Okay, so that's essentially where that comes from. And the idea of Ishtar's descent in the underworld and all those ancient Sumerian stories.

• 2:05:24Speaker 01

  Now, so Gilgamesh travels in the underworld to go and find Zayasudra. He finds him on this, like, island he describes, okay? Goes there and he seeks him out and there he is. And he has, anybody can go and read this, especially in the latest book I just published called The Epic of Humanity. I have the whole translation of this in there if they want to, because sometimes these tablets can be hard to find the right versions. So one of the things we did with The Epic of Humanity is we included all the most important passages from the best translators in there. You can read, and you can find that on Amazon and on the stageoftime.com.

• 2:06:05Speaker 01

  Anyway, he finds the Noah figure and he asks him, "How did you obtain immortality? I wish to know." And I'm paraphrasing here. And the Noah figure says, "Oh, Gilgamesh, I will tell you an ancient story." He says, "There was once a city called Shurupak, far older than your time. So old that when Gilgamesh is alive," which I do believe is the time period that we're told he's alive, right? Thirty-five hundred years ago, whatever it is, four thousand years ago, somewhere in that region, that he, he knew about something.

• 2:06:47Speaker 01

  Extremely ancient, and that's what he was going there for. So he says, "Oh Gilgamesh, let me tell you about a city, an ancient city of Shurupak." That, remember, that's supposed to be the last city created with the first five that was destroyed. Where the Noah figure came from. So it makes complete sense that he would have all the knowledge of Shurupak because he was the last king and sage of that city before it was all destroyed. Makes sense? So he says, "Let me tell you a story of this ancient city of Shurupak long before you. It's so old that the gods were once in it." Those are quotes that he says, "were once in it." And you're like, "That's weird, right?" So, go forward. By the way, he doesn't seek immortality.

• 2:07:31Speaker 01

  Untapishtham tells him if you can dive down and get this rare plant, or if you can try to stay awake for seven days. He gives him these tasks to try to do, and Gilgamesh fails all of them. And then it's going back empty-handed to Iraq. So it ends up kinda sad, right? But that doesn't really matter because you find out something really strange. Like, so Shurupak was a real place. And this figure was a real person that was there. And these events, some of them are real. That's where I started getting more interested. And I started studying it. It turns out, they found the city of Shurupak in 1931. In that area of Iraq.

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  Just, they had this hunch, they believe, based on data and information where they thought it was. It was below this modern, well, modern day village called Tel Farah. Okay? Tel Farah. And so they dig down below Tel Farah, and they end up hitting these different layers of civilization. Not just one, but three. And they called them Strata 1, 2, and 3. Now, Strata 1 was the deepest, 2 being the middle, and then 3 being the more recent. Okay? So they start down, they first hit Strata 3. They call it Strata because it's different layers.

• 2:08:53Speaker 01

  Strata 3 was the much more recent time period of that region, where they had tablets still, but the pottery was actually kind of primitive. It was an interesting culture that had come after Gilgamesh. Right? So there's like another culture after Gilgamesh that ends up living in that region. As they get down further and they dig down to like six to eight feet, right? They hit what they call the Uruk or Uruk civilization. And they find tablets related to Gilgamesh. And they find, well, this is when Gilgamesh lived and they, and they acknowledge that. They call it strata two. So here's Gilgamesh's time, right? They're writing all the tablets, they're writing about the floods and all these different events.

• 2:09:36Jesse Michels?

  So that's thirty five hundred to four thousand.

• 2:09:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. Now, if you were a civilization writing about a previous event, it would make sense that the people that had the event occur to them would not be the ones writing about it, right? Cause they'd be gone.

• 2:09:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, of course.

• 2:09:48Speaker 01

  So it would be like stories and things that would be woven down and then you would write their stories. Right?

• 2:09:54Jesse Michels?

  How old is tier three?

• 2:09:55Speaker 01

  Well, so they, well, this is what's wild. After they hit strata three, because archaeology isn't supposed to exist before that, eighty percent of the entire team left. They all left. They're like, you guys are wasting your time. Basically, I'm paraphrasing and you can go on, uh, and this is a big part of the new book I'm writing. Uh, the new book is going to be called the missing key of history. It's, it details all of this. But this, and so if you go on Penn museum archive, you just look up the city of Sherupac. You can read this whole thing I'm telling you right now. Okay, it's very beautiful, beautifully laid out, very great, a great document that has all the information and diagrams and stuff, okay?

• 2:10:36Speaker 01

  So in that, um, they hit this strata two civilization, which is when the known Akadians and Assyrians and all these guys are supposed to live. Um, and they start digging down further and they find no more human remains, no human activity at all for three feet, four feet, which is a long way to go. And everyone's like, you know what? This is a waste of time and like not seventy percent of them or so, something like, I'll leave. Except some of the archaeologists and some of the better workmen stayed. They're like, why do you think they stayed? They're like, we haven't found Shurupak yet. Okay? We haven't found Shurupak yet.

• 2:11:17Speaker 01

  So they continue digging and they find this layer underneath Strata II, as I said, that is three to four feet thick. Okay? Like, pretty sizable layer. No signs of human activity, no fragments of any kind, other than just alluvial material. Alluvial means river, like, or flood, flood deposited, right? Just like the stories of the Great Flood. Okay? Like, Atreches and the stories of Shurupak being wiped out by a great flood and being buried and sealed, okay? While they stick around, it's the British and the Germans digging, okay?

• 2:11:57Speaker 01

  And they, they dig further and further, and because they just had a hunch, and at sixteen feet down, sixteen feet from the top, now two civilizations above them, they all of a sudden hit something. They hit areas of scattered tablets and scattered fragments of stuff. And they find, they find tablets right above it and below that show, because they actually found a tablet above in Strata II that said Shurupak was here, but they didn't find Shurupak. So they're like, it's gotta be down there somewhere. So they end up finding this base layer, and it's total anarchy from what they can see. Most of the belongings have been removed, have been like, taken.

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  Something, it looked like they had, the people had like, left, is what they came to the conclusion of. And they find some beautiful, beautiful pottery. They actually found this really weird diorite hand. Diorite's one of the hardest stones on earth that has six fingers. And there's an image of that, I'm including the book, and it's in on the pen excavation report. So weird, it's a hand but with six fingers. Very bizarre, whatever that means. But anyway, diorite's an extremely hard stone, so no primitive civilization can carve things like that. Very well carved diorite hand, and they find all this beautiful, beautiful pottery, and they find these tablets and different things, and they're like, oh my god, we found Shurupak. Okay? Sixteen feet to twenty-two feet down.

• 2:13:25Speaker 01

  Massive amount of area, and they have, of course... Right on top of it is this four-foot alluvial flood layer sitting on top of it. Now, in that article, I highly recommend people read it. There's this whole conclusions part at the bottom where they end up discussing how there are very, very interesting similarities from the ancient Untapishthim Zayasudra story that match what they found. However, at the very end, they say, "This is simply," I'm paraphrasing, "this is simply a play off of thoughts and off of words. We don't really think that this could actually have existed like they said, but it is interesting nonetheless."

• 2:14:04Jesse Michels?

  They do any sort of dating?

• 2:14:06Speaker 01

  Well, the dating is very, yeah, it's very difficult to date things like that.

• 2:14:11Jesse Michels?

  Okay, but you have this flood layer above tier three.

• 2:14:13Speaker 01

  Right, so they see the similarities and this is where I get on board. I find that article, studied the hell out of it, realize, okay, this might be like real evidence to prove that these things really happened and that this is actual archaeologists saying and pointing towards something mysterious. And that's where it led to all of this, okay? Because now I'm like, okay, so Shrupek was real, Eridu was real, Zayasudra was real. Oh, my God, did they really land in the Eret Mountains? Okay?

• 2:14:47Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:14:48Speaker 01

  So it all starts to unfold. So I start studying that region. It's eastern Turkey. Today, it's eastern Turkey. It used to be Armenia. So I'm looking around, looking around, and I stumble across.

• 2:15:00Jesse Michels?

  Why, why do those civilizations? So Shrupek's real, Eridu's real, all of that stuff's in Iraq and the Fertile Crescent. What, what does that have to do with, you know?

• 2:15:10Speaker 01

  Because the stories state that they landed in the Eret Mountains.

• 2:15:13Jesse Michels?

  So you're saying, let's try to figure out whether that's true too?

• 2:15:16Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:15:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:17Speaker 01

  Now, I initially wasn't necessarily...

• 2:15:21Speaker 01

  Being like, okay, I'm gonna find evidence of that. In fact, it sort of fell in my lap. I was just looking around that area and I stumbled across these very mysterious sites that were brand new. The world has like very, really never even heard of. Some of these sites are found in 2017, 2001. We're talking about, you think, we think Gobekli Tepe is new. That was found in the 1800s and then fully excavated in the 1940s. We're talking about something way newer than that stuff.

• 2:15:52Jesse Michels?

  And when we're saying, so Gilgamesh is the king of Eridu.

• 2:15:56Speaker 01

  Oh, Uruk, in Uruk.

• 2:15:58Jesse Michels?

  Oh, okay, so.

• 2:15:59Speaker 01

  So Eridu is related to a previous king, not related to Gilgamesh. It's a totally different time.

• 2:16:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So Gilgamesh is the king of Uruk and the epic of Gilgamesh says that he is landing in modern Turkey?

• 2:16:13Speaker 01

  No, no. He seeks out the flood hero to learn about the secrets of immortality from that figure.

• 2:16:20Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:16:20Speaker 01

  From the ancient Sumerian figure of Zayasudra Untapistim, who became the Noah figure in Christianity.

• 2:16:26Jesse Michels?

  But then what is that, what's the connection then between that and Turkey and modern day?

• 2:16:29Speaker 01

  Because in the stories that Zayasudra and his family, they land in the Ararat Mountains.

• 2:16:36Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:16:37Speaker 01

  After the flood.

• 2:16:37Jesse Michels?

  After the flood, they land there.

• 2:16:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:16:39Jesse Michels?

  Got it.

• 2:16:40Speaker 01

  And I believe that flood was not Younger Dryas, but actually a completely different event way before it.

• 2:16:46Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:16:47Speaker 01

  Because we had this whole time period of an emergence of something that happened. Now, Christianity, early Christianity and Hebrew traditions already state this. It already state that the sons of Noah repopulated and traveled around the world. There, that's Japheth, Shem, and Ham. They already state that. There's like biblical, all kinds of ancient knowledge around this, except they don't believe that it was before 6,000 years ago.

• 2:17:11Jesse Michels?

  What's your best guess as to the date?

• 2:17:13Speaker 01

  Could be up to 40,000 years ago, based on looking at ice cores, sampling, and previous climatic events of when floods could have occurred in these, these things on the earth. Again, studying Greenland and Antarctic ice cores and then studying alignments with Greenland, when north was in that position and different things like that.

• 2:17:32Jesse Michels?

  Wow, so would the implication then be that Chirupac is?

• 2:17:35Speaker 01

  Yes. Would be the old, like the oldest cities on earth.

• 2:17:38Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:17:39Speaker 01

  And it was sealed and buried and concealed by the flood. And then other civilizations ended up building right on top of it. But there was so much flood debris and material that they never even reached it.

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  It was like sealed off.

• 2:17:52Jesse Michels?

  We've gotta get these dating techniques better. It's so frustrating when you find all this stuff and then it is above a flood, it's below flood layer, so like that should be, you know, some decent evidence that, you know, this stuff is older than.

• 2:18:03Speaker 01

  Well, archaeologists say that it was a local river event of flooding because the Euphrates is prone to some flooding events. However, in, in pictures of Eridu, I was able to identify ocean shells that are still on the Ziggurat summit that would have been more inclined to have like a Persian Gulf flood from the ocean and maybe even the Black Sea that engulfed that entire region.

• 2:18:29Jesse Michels?

  That's wild. Well, yeah. I mean.

• 2:18:32Speaker 01

  They're not river shells, they're ocean shells.

• 2:18:34Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh. And what's the, I mean, that's.

• 2:18:37Speaker 01

  Well, there's freshwater snails, there's freshwater things like that, but these are ocean shells that are sticking out of the ground. That, that would be some evidence to potentially prove that, or at least suggest or point towards that the, this was a flood that it was, that was related to the Persian Gulf and not just like the Euphrates River flooding during seasonal rises.

• 2:18:56Jesse Michels?

  But do you really believe that at that time, technology could have even possibly existed to get into a boat and then land, you know, pretty far away?

• 2:19:07Speaker 01

  Well, it's described that very, very extensively that the details of how to build it and how to survive were, were, were told.

• 2:19:14Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:19:15Speaker 01

  Like so that humanity could survive. It's, it's, again, if you want to read the tablets, you read the Epic of Humanity, they're all in there and it's very detailed with like the amount of bitumen and the type of wood, because cedar is the toughest wood on earth. It's a very specific type of wood and how to build it and how to seal it off and that they, they did survive this event. And that they landed up there and that's why there's so many ancient traditions that say that that happened.

• 2:19:45Speaker 01

  Now, this leads to everything else that is right at the core of all this, that you have in front of you and that we were talking about before. When I was studying these brand-new sites around Lake Vawn. Now, Lake Vawn is not that far from the Ararat Mountains. It's relatively in the same area, except that the reason I think they picked Lake Vawn is that it is, for instance, by the way, it's the fourth deepest lake on Earth. It's 1,500 feet deep, and it has volcanoes all around it. When you have that, you create a very, very fertile soil for growing and creating agriculture, the perfect place to create a new civilization, new civilization.

• 2:20:28Speaker 01

  And that is what I believe potentially happened in that region, was that those, that group who are very, very wise sages, who are literally being helped by the gods, as they describe it, created something there that potentially has traveled and became maritime, and maybe the answer to Peru and Bolivia and even like Egypt, and basically this lost key to the lost civilizations of Earth. And I can go all into the details of why I would make that very, very bold statement.

• 2:21:04Jesse Michels?

  Okay, go for it.

• 2:21:06Speaker 01

  So when I was studying these sites, again, very new, like Ionis and Kefkalesi and Shavustepay and Korazoot and Azvernatepe, all these different sites, you find all these similarities between them. The first thing that's very strange is they have extremely sophisticated stonework, like, I mean, megaliths, multi-ton blocks that are carved out of very, very hard stone, and they only used three types of stone. They never used anything even local. For instance, a lot of that region is actually limestone that has volcanics around it, but the areas they built these temples on was usually limestone. But they didn't use the limestone blocks at all.

• 2:21:49Speaker 01

  In fact, some of the basalt that they used in this construction is considered to possibly come from 350 miles away.

• 2:21:59Speaker 01

  Because of the quality of it, there's nothing in the region that has quarries that supports that. And some of it even came from volcanoes like Mount Sufon, like at Kef. But again, we're talking about a civilization that mimics like what we're seeing in Egypt, with this idea of a lost civilization before the dynastic Egyptians, that had gone to great lengths to create massive things with stones that, they didn't care where they came from, but there was energetic reasons that they were very important to them, where they would go and obtain them to build these things. And then they seemingly were wiped out, and then another culture came later. Now, that dynastic equivalent of Egyptians would be what I believe are called the Eurartians. The Eurartians in this region, 2800 B.C., right?

• 2:22:43Speaker 01

  About 3,000 years ago. They share a lot of similarities with the Assyrian civilization of the north. Remember I said there was a re-emergence of civilization in Mesopotamia during the time of Gilgamesh, right? You had the Akadians and Assyrians that re-emerged out of the ashes of the Sumerians. They then know about the stories and things, but they're like a kind of a warlike culture a bit. Ashurpanapal is collecting all these tablets and creating these libraries. But what you have is, I believe, a branch of the Assyrians that moved into what I'm calling this old holy land, right? That went up in that region and created a completely separate civilization, right?

• 2:23:25Speaker 01

  Hundreds of years go by, they build this civilization, and then the Assyrians and the Babylonians invade and destroy them and wipe them out, right? Poof, they disappear from history. But they leave behind all of these mud brick castles, and all of these crude stones, and all of the stuff that's built almost entirely on, or in many cases, on these older foundations, just like in Egypt. Makes sense? So, when I stumble across this and I see sites like Ione's and Kef Kalesi with these machine-like cut stones, but not just the precision of their work, the fact that they were sun temples aligning to the, either the rising or the setting sun, but also having

• 2:24:06Speaker 01

  motifs and specific symbols that then we find all around the world. And what those motifs represent and those symbols, I believe, became the core of ancient secret societies and things like the Knights Templar and things like the triptych doorway knowledge we see all around the world. This idea that they're, like, the Trinity, right? The Holy Trinity in Christianity, the Father, Son, the Holy Ghost, but what does it really mean? I think it represents the three sides of us, right? We have the mind, the body, and then the spirit. And if those three things are balanced, we essentially ascend into this higher form, right?

• 2:24:49Speaker 01

  I think Jesus and Buddha and all these individuals in history have just basically been sages trying to teach us that very same thing. And where did that knowledge come from? I believe it was lowered at these sites because all the symbols all come back to here. All the building styles seem to be traced back to here. All the ancient traditions say that these three sons traveled around the world and then provided the knowledge. It all seems to come back to one place. And what you have in front of you is a giant basalt, what's called a bas relief, and it is this massive three-foot by three-foot by four-foot stone column, block, that has

• 2:25:33Speaker 01

  all these sacred teachings that literally became what I think is the basis of hermeticism itself. You have the concepts of the law of correspondence, you have the concepts of feminine masculine, you have the tree of life that we find throughout Assyrian civilizations and others, you have even the passing of the pine cone, which we see all around the world, the civilizations. And remember with the handbag and the pine cone? You see the first, what I believe is the first iteration on that anywhere in the world. Wow. And not only that, but the original sun cross that became the Knights Templar cross.

• 2:26:12Speaker 01

  All from the same locations in this part of Turkey that just happened to correspond to where these divine sages were supposed to have landed.

• 2:26:23Jesse Michels?

  So you think they had sort of ancient hermetic wisdom that then has only been conserved via secret societies since?

• 2:26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:32Jesse Michels?

  And so what do you think these symbols mean? So like, you know, we talked about the, you know, Trinity. What about the cross?

• 2:26:39Speaker 01

  Well, the sun cross represents what I believe is this balance of all harmonic things, everything. And I think it goes back to this idea of source or God, the balance of all things, right? And that's why the cross became such an integral part of Christianity, but not that cross. What's interesting is that Christianity's cross is not shared by that cross, except for the Vatican and like the Pope and the Vatican have that very same cross. Not only that, the Pope has it on his cloak and in front of the Vatican is a giant pine cone.

• 2:27:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I've seen it.

• 2:27:19Speaker 01

  Okay? Very same symbols that come from this region.

• 2:27:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:23Speaker 01

  And that's why I believe, for instance, these sites were visited by Xerxes, Alexander the Great, and many, many other great people throughout history.

• 2:27:34Jesse Michels?

  Xerxes is Persian, Alexander the Great's Roman.

• 2:27:37Speaker 01

  It's like they're all going back to somewhere.

• 2:27:39Jesse Michels?

  You think they're trying to find something special at this site?

• 2:27:42Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:27:43Jesse Michels?

  What do you think they're looking for?

• 2:27:44Speaker 01

  I think they're looking for the Holy Knowledge of, you want, you ready for this? Take that other one out, the big one underneath there?

• 2:27:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:51Speaker 01

  Look at what he's holding in his hand.

• 2:27:52Jesse Michels?

  Looks like maybe an acacia leaf?

• 2:27:56Speaker 01

  No, not that, the other thing.

• 2:27:58Jesse Michels?

  Oh. Uh, like a little?

• 2:28:02Speaker 01

  Like a cup or a chalice?

• 2:28:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, like maybe a Holy Grail or something?

• 2:28:05Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:28:06Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:28:07Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:28:08Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 2:28:09Speaker 01

  And if you look up what that means, it means, we know what some of these things mean, right? If you look up what a cup means in religion, it means the passing of a spiritual or religious doctrine. Okay. He's now holding pine cones, a pine cone for knowledge that is coming off of the central tree of life in the center that has three different ones with balancing of the center. Now, if you look at the top, do you see, you see the three step pyramids with the two eagles on either end?

• 2:28:40Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:28:40Speaker 01

  Now, look at what the flowering of the center that comes right off of his, of the, where he's, uh, his, his, basically his head is pointing towards, you see that? Now, that can, that consists of seven rays, which I believe correspond to the seven colors of the visible light spectrum.

• 2:28:56Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 2:28:58Speaker 01

  And this, we also have seven chakras inside us that is talked about during Kundalini in ancient, uh,

• 2:29:04Jesse Michels?

  Well, seven comes up a lot, you have the seven hekalote.

• 2:29:06Speaker 01

  Seven sages.

• 2:29:08Jesse Michels?

  Seven arit in the Egyptian, you know, these are palaces that you go through, sort of Kabbalistic protocols where, yeah, okay.

• 2:29:15Speaker 01

  So I think what we're, what we're talking about right now are literally some of the most holy sites on earth with knowledge that's then passed around the world and archaeologists have severely gotten this wrong.

• 2:29:29Jesse Michels?

  It's fascinating. I mean, when you talk to like Brian Marescu, who wrote, you know, The Immortality Key, he talks about the Eleusinian mystery rituals much later, obviously in Greece, but when you go deeper with him, he'll say, no, this, this stuff has actually been going on well before the Eleusinian mystery rituals. You had Minoan and Mycenian proto examples of these sort of mystery rituals and so conserved knowledge via, you know, specific rituals and symbology, you know, it kind of makes sense that it would go back, you know, well before and may, maybe these things are, you know, can't be taught via transferring of documents and, you know, just, you know, pure, you know, just teaching semantic knowledge. Maybe it's something that needs to be activated within a given individual.

• 2:30:14Speaker 01

  Right. And now, if you look at the other image to your right there, you can see the griffin that became one of the core symbols of Greece, of ancient Greece. And I think, I believe based on the trajectory of where these different groups went, they were part of the same area, the suns. Is that even ancient, ancient Greece, just like Plato and Plutarch discuss, has an earlier history than just, they're called the ancient Athenians or proto-Athenians. And they describes it actually fighting against Atlantis.

• 2:30:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:46Speaker 01

  And so what we could be looking at is the implications of the emergence of a global golden age that may even connect to the ancient Athenians and Atlantis.

• 2:30:56Jesse Michels?

  It's really fascinating. So what would the Griffin, why would the Griffin?

• 2:31:01Speaker 01

  It's a guardian. It's an ancient guardian in Greece, and it is guarding what I believe is the symbol of time.

• 2:31:07Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah. The hourglass. Yeah.

• 2:31:09Speaker 01

  And I believe that they're talking about guarding time for eternity. Basically, what they're guarding is, I believe, is this concept of balance and harmony in all things.

• 2:31:21Jesse Michels?

  That's so interesting. Well, you know, the Templars supposedly had the secrets of time travel. You know, if you read the Umberto Eco Foucault's Pendulum, you know, there's a part where they had these sort of rituals that they would do, and it's sort of related to Kundalini. And then, you know, at the very end of this crazy, long description of the history of the Templars, Umberto Eco says, you know, and maybe they even had the secrets of time travel.

• 2:31:44Speaker 01

  Well, it's mind-boggling to consider like the connections, because let me give you an example. In South America, in Bolivia, we have Viracocha holding the two condors on either side, which I think is the same concept you see in front of you of the pillars of holding balance. And that that god, Haldi, you see in front of you is the same thing as Viracocha. And that what we're seeing around Lake Titicaca, with the emergence of the pre-Tiwanaku civilizations in Pumapunku and around Peru, is like a mirror civilization that was created, they were very much the same. Lake Titicaca is one of the deepest lakes, just like Lake Vona, surrounded by volcanoes, and they both built out of the

• 2:32:28Speaker 01

  same andesite basalt work that we see mimicking each other, the same symbols.

• 2:32:34Jesse Michels?

  So you have the same materials.

• 2:32:35Speaker 01

  Same symbols. The Chicana symbol, the cross, the Viracocha, we see the same type of building style. I show pictures from.

• 2:32:44Jesse Michels?

  Where is that? That's in Peru?

• 2:32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:46Jesse Michels?

  How many sites do we have like this, that we can correspond as far as symbology, materials, structures?

• 2:32:53Speaker 01

  I'm tracing them all around the world, potentially even to Egypt.

• 2:32:57Jesse Michels?

  How many?

• 2:32:58Speaker 01

  Uh, at least half a dozen. I've, for instance, that step pyramid design.

• 2:33:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:02Speaker 01

  I've also seen an Angkor Tom in Cambodia.

• 2:33:05Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:33:06Speaker 01

  And in other places.

• 2:33:07Jesse Michels?

  Do we have any sense of how old Angkor Tom is? That's another thing.

• 2:33:10Speaker 01

  It's another mysterious site where we had other cultures that adopted it later on and then it kind of just disappeared into history.

• 2:33:16Jesse Michels?

  Correct.

• 2:33:16Speaker 01

  The point is that we may be looking.

• 2:33:18Jesse Michels?

  Older than Angkor Wat though, like?

• 2:33:20Speaker 01

  They're part of the same complex.

• 2:33:21Jesse Michels?

  Cause Angkor Wat, I was just looking it up and it was like, it was like, you know, past a thousand A D. And I was like, that doesn't make sense to me. It's gotta be old.

• 2:33:29Speaker 01

  They don't, they have no way to date things like that.

• 2:33:31Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:33:31Speaker 01

  Just because someone comes along and writes something into something else, it's, it doesn't date it. Now, I'll give you an example. Now archaeologists believe that the, that all of these ruins, all of these artifacts, all these symbols came from the Eurartians. Because the Eurartians wrote cuneiform into some of the temples.

• 2:33:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:49Speaker 01

  Just little spots here and there, like I, King Manoa or Russo the second built this. And that's what their basis for it being the Eurartians, except the Eurartians had none of the same incorporation of these, uh, these motifs. Into their, their artwork was quite primitive.

• 2:34:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:06Speaker 01

  Um, they built on top of all the, the base stonework with mud brick.

• 2:34:11Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:34:11Speaker 01

  And then they crude stonework. None of the teachings were part of any of their culture at all. And more, furthermore, um, they didn't seem to have any kind of respect for any of these ancient teachings. They actually turned some of these gods into war gods. And it makes sense if you're during a time of war, that you're gonna use them in very different ways than they were before. Now, my theory behind that is that this civilization left no writings. Like for instance, in the Great Pyramid at Giza, there are no writings anywhere. Okay? A lot of these ancient sites, like again, give you an example too, like if you go to Pumapunku, there's no writings anywhere.

• 2:34:55Jesse Michels?

  That's interesting, cause you would, if it were really from, you know, what we consider one of the ancient Egyptian kingdoms, you would expect more hieroglyphics.

• 2:35:03Speaker 01

  Except that the hieroglyphics were maybe all come from the dynastic Egyptians.

• 2:35:07Jesse Michels?

  That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

• 2:35:08Speaker 01

  So maybe this civilization.

• 2:35:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. That's just another point.

• 2:35:12Speaker 01

  You know what their language was?

• 2:35:13Jesse Michels?

  What was their language?

• 2:35:14Speaker 01

  Symbolism.

• 2:35:15Jesse Michels?

  That, yeah. Wow.

• 2:35:16Speaker 01

  And that their literal way of passing knowledge, why would you do that? Let me tell you why you would do that. Manly P. Hall discusses in his amazing work

• 2:35:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:28Speaker 01

  that the ancients' language was symbolism because that way it couldn't be interpreted, misinterpreted, by those who were not adepts

• 2:35:37Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:35:37Speaker 01

  and sages.

• 2:35:38Jesse Michels?

  You need the ears to hear or the eyes to see.

• 2:35:40Speaker 01

  Well, you're just not gonna understand what you're looking at.

• 2:35:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:42Speaker 01

  If you're not a sage that has any kind of knowledge of it, it literally won't make any sense to you.

• 2:35:46Jesse Michels?

  This is true of all secret society, you know,

• 2:35:48Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:35:48Jesse Michels?

  Freemasonry or, you know, anything.

• 2:35:50Speaker 01

  And so I believe that their language may have been symbolism and these motifs represent divine knowledge that is at the very heart of two things.

• 2:35:59Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:35:59Speaker 01

  One, an understanding that we're part of this balance and harmony of the earth and that everything is connected. Okay, that's one. And that those things are actually maintained. And then the two is the knowledge of the divine side of ourselves and how to reach these higher states of consciousness like all the great sages have always been trying to tell us all along. And that those two are the core concepts of teaching. Some of these are even like universal laws in, in, with woven into these. And I believe that's why so many of these civilizations built out of the same stone, had the same symbols all over the earth, um, and just mysteriously disappeared. Because I believe that that civilization

• 2:36:44Speaker 01

  then traveled around the world and I have evidence for that. Well, I found sites, there's one, there's a site called Altanteppe. You ready for this? Four hundred and twenty-five miles away from the other sites. Enormous distance that was, has the same symbols, same temple design. All of it's the same and it shows this migratory route that they were, they were making and it heads right towards the Mediterranean, the Black Sea. I believe that that civilization became maritime. And then influenced the pre-Greeks, influenced the Egyptians, influenced the ancient Peru and Bolivia and maybe even other places like Cambodia and India.

• 2:37:24Jesse Michels?

  Do you think this is what we call Atlantis?

• 2:37:26Speaker 01

  I, I would, I would say that it's what we're looking for, for the lost civilizations.

• 2:37:33Jesse Michels?

  Why can't you, you know, the more conservative thing would be to say, this is just one of these like proto examples of the mystery rituals and we don't know, you know, and they were, the mystery rituals themselves are conserved all over the world. And that's pretty fascinating, but we don't know exactly what civilization it came from.

• 2:37:53Speaker 01

  The problem is though, that any civilizations that are credited with this time period are considered Iron or Bronze Age, okay? Iron or Bronze Age means that you only have tools made out of iron and bronze and your capabilities, right? Iron Age is the one that they credited that you're RTNs. Now, Iron Age tools-

• 2:38:11Jesse Michels?

  Bronze Age is like 1000 B.C.

• 2:38:14Speaker 01

  That came after Iron Age. Now, if you have Iron Age tools, how can you ever manipulate, first of all, move stones hundreds of miles? Okay, let's just start there. If you were in Iron Age civilization, first of all, how could you move gigantic blocks? Why would you even do that? When you have local stone, right in front of you, that's like limestone or something softer, why on earth would you ever go to those lengths to go and get those stones? First, if you're a primitive culture, how would you even do it?

• 2:38:43Jesse Michels?

  So I agree, so I agree with you that the conventional narrative is off. It has to be.

• 2:38:48Speaker 01

  It makes no sense, does it?

• 2:38:49Jesse Michels?

  It makes no sense. And then, drawing conclusions from this, so it's like, okay, so we have like six or so-

• 2:38:55Speaker 01

  Turn that over for a minute. Turn that, flip it around. Now, flip the other way around. Now, you see the base stone that's like the darker, like the stone you can see on the bottom?

• 2:39:05Jesse Michels?

  I do, yeah.

• 2:39:06Speaker 01

  That's the foundation of Ionus, okay, you're looking at. Now, that is built out of anisite, one of the hardest stones on earth. Same type of stone we see all the way across the world in Tiwanaku Pumupunku. Okay? Now, look on top. That entire mass you see on top is not dirt, it's mud brick. You can actually see the bricks sticking out some.

• 2:39:27Jesse Michels?

  Wow, that's wild.

• 2:39:28Speaker 01

  Now, if the Araritans were able to build out of stone, then why would they all of a sudden only use mud brick on top of it?

• 2:39:34Jesse Michels?

  No, it's almost like you see this regression of humanity.

• 2:39:37Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:39:38Jesse Michels?

  Like embodied in the sediment layer.

• 2:39:39Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:39:40Jesse Michels?

  Like actually really advanced stuff going on. The lowest levels of the sediment layer.

• 2:39:44Speaker 01

  That's exactly the point.

• 2:39:45Jesse Michels?

  Above it.

• 2:39:46Speaker 01

  Okay, now that's the first thing. Now, now, why? First of all, how are they able to move these multi-ton stones? From enormous distances, one. Two, how could they cut them anywhere near what are like laser cut cuts? Right? They look machine cut. I have examples from Kef, excuse me, from Kef Kalesi that have cuts that are so sharp. You can still cut your finger on them. There, and you see the same thing at Pumapunku. That are so unbelievably perfect that today, we wouldn't be able to do it by hand. We would use a machine. To cut those, right? We have no idea how they cut them. Secondly, some of these symbols, turn that around for a second and flip it around.

• 2:40:32Speaker 01

  Some of the symbols of the crosses actually go between blocks seamlessly. How would you do that? How would you cut these symbols in utter precision beyond comprehension and never make a mistake? And put those in there like that. Now that altar in front of you is made out of golden calicite alabaster. Right? And they don't even know where it came from. Okay, they seem to be going to great lengths to create these unbelievable temples aligned with sun movements. For very specific energetic reasons, and I think it goes way deeper than that. You look at the designs of Ionus. The way that there's this pillar design of Basalt with an andesite central Susi temple.

• 2:41:16Speaker 01

  That they all have these connections in the square around and that they have these extended periods of stone that extend off of each corner. It's like there's some kind of an energetic metaphysical.

• 2:41:29Speaker 01

  Response that we have no comprehension about at all. Like, for instance, I don't think this is anything about just tracking movements of the sun. I think the actual sun and the energy may have created something within this that human beings have no concept of yet.

• 2:41:45Jesse Michels?

  Well, have you heard of certain people lying in?

• 2:41:47Speaker 01

  Like sacred geometry is what I'm trying to say.

• 2:41:49Jesse Michels?

  You know, I get it. Yeah, theories of, you know. Resonance or fractal geometry.

• 2:41:54Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 2:41:55Jesse Michels?

  So, um, yeah, have you heard of rumors of sort of elite people, you know, uh, spending time in granite chambers in some of these pyramids, like modern day, like this happening now, because I've heard of this.

• 2:42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:42:09Jesse Michels?

  You know, this, uh, idea of, you know, certain people going into granite chambers and then having sort of out of body experiences.

• 2:42:16Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:42:17Jesse Michels?

  Experiencing astral projections.

• 2:42:18Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:42:18Jesse Michels?

  And, uh, you know, coming back feeling sort of, you know.

• 2:42:21Speaker 01

  I think that was one of the purposes behind them.

• 2:42:23Jesse Michels?

  Yep. And why do you think that?

• 2:42:25Speaker 01

  I think that these were temples that were related to like ascension temples.

• 2:42:29Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:42:30Speaker 01

  If I want to call them that. Okay.

• 2:42:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:31Speaker 01

  Ascension temples that were designed around not only human conscious harmonics. Okay. Frequency and vibration, but also this fusion between, um, the, again, like the earth, moon, the sun, and also constellations and, and all of those had that concept of the law of correspondence that created a synergy and that may perhaps humanity forgetting that when we create these beautiful spaces of energy, right? Temples of certain kinds of stone align in a certain kinds of way, often with gardens or flowing water or different things that it's like a magic is unlocked, if I can describe it that way.

• 2:43:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:10Speaker 01

  It's like some kind of a magic is unlocked and we become a conduit to be able to reach higher states. And I believe that was one of their functions for why they were created the way they were and that we have literally forgotten all of it.

• 2:43:22Jesse Michels?

  It's, it's really fascinating that you have pink quartz in Egypt, you have granite in Egypt, you have, what do you call this golden?

• 2:43:31Speaker 01

  It's, it's golden calicite.

• 2:43:32Jesse Michels?

  Golden calicite. In all these cases, materials that don't exist locally in the immediate surrounding environment. They're sort of going out, getting them, then they're using seemingly techniques when it comes to building these geometric structures, creating these stone carvings that we can barely do today, or if we would need heavy machinery.

• 2:43:50Speaker 01

  We don't even know why they did that. Now, and, and let me give you, uh, a reason why this has been missed. This is a big point I want to get across.

• 2:43:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah. Why is archaeology so?

• 2:44:00Speaker 01

  When archaeologists. Came into this region, there was a man named Charles Burney, who was like the, you could call him the grandfather of Eurartean history.

• 2:44:09Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:44:10Speaker 01

  He kind of put a lot of the Eurartean history together. And then a lot of archaeologists that came later wrote in papers that a lot of their understanding came from him and then it kind of trickled down. It trickled down. It's called the ivory tower. It's this idea that well-established prestigious people come before and then others are not willing to go outside of that narrative because it's like this established doctrine, right? That gets firmly established and then it almost gets built off each other. Now, go back to that sheet underneath, the one, the big one. Now you see what's in his hand and you see how in the center there's a cypress tree of life. You see that?

• 2:44:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:47Speaker 01

  They believe, based on the Eurartians being warlike, that what Haldi is passing at Tishiba there, Tishiba and Haldi, one is a storm god and one is a god of preservation. We see that in the, what's called the trimurti in ancient India with Shiva, right? Vishnu, Brahma. I'm sure you've heard of that, right?

• 2:45:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:07Speaker 01

  It's this idea of a creator, a preserver and a destroyer, okay? That's very much the same concepts we see here. Except for, because the Eurartians were warlike, they believe, archaeologists believe firmly, that what they're passing in their hand is a spearhead. A spearhead. And that all those T-windows up above are false windows in a castle. So much so, that these sites are actually called kalesis, meaning fortresses, because the Eurartians built fortresses on top of them. They're literally looking through everything and from the lens of a war culture.

• 2:45:47Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:45:47Speaker 01

  Everything. And so none of them come back to being like an ancient mystical sage teaching. They're like, they're like a war symbol. And because of that, All of these, I believe, are basically misinterpreted. Now, you see that T pillar?

• 2:46:05Jesse Michels?

  So if these aren't spearheads, what are they?

• 2:46:07Speaker 01

  They're the seeds, passing the seeds of knowledge.

• 2:46:10Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 2:46:10Speaker 01

  Basically like we see all around the world. Now, I wanna, I wanna show you-

• 2:46:14Jesse Michels?

  So what are examples of the, that's so interesting.

• 2:46:16Speaker 01

  Let me give you, let me give you an example. I'm gonna pass this over to you.

• 2:46:18Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating.

• 2:46:19Speaker 01

  And I want you to see something.

• 2:46:19Jesse Michels?

  So they just assume it's a spirit, because they, that the Euryatians were warlike culture?

• 2:46:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. Now, let me, let me pass something to you that I think will help you understand this in a greater way.

• 2:46:29Jesse Michels?

  That's so fascinating.

• 2:46:30Speaker 01

  Take a look at this.

• 2:46:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:31Speaker 01

  Okay. Now, that is at Shavu Tepe, it's made out of basalt.

• 2:46:34Jesse Michels?

  That's Robert Shock, right?

• 2:46:36Speaker 01

  That's Robert Shock right there. We were all there just recently. Now, look at the T pillars on the box right, the ball, the ball relief right in front of you.

• 2:46:43Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:46:43Speaker 01

  No, right here on the paper.

• 2:46:45Jesse Michels?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:46:45Speaker 01

  Now, look at the Ts.

• 2:46:49Jesse Michels?

  Oh, I see.

• 2:46:51Speaker 01

  Do you see that?

• 2:46:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I did.

• 2:46:52Speaker 01

  It's the exact same thing.

• 2:46:54Jesse Michels?

  Whoa. So where's this?

• 2:46:56Speaker 01

  That's at a site right in the same region called Shavu Tepe. That is this mysterious T pillar, which then mimics things like Menorca, Spain, and Gobekli Tepe. And we see the same T concept in Pumapunku as well.

• 2:47:11Jesse Michels?

  This is crazy, man. So it's everywhere.

• 2:47:13Speaker 01

  It's like this ancient teaching that was being passed around, and now they believe that those are false doorways, except they have no hole in the ba, the back. They're solid. That weighs, right in front of you, that weighs seven to 10 tons. And there's no basalt local to that area.

• 2:47:32Jesse Michels?

  It also, it makes sense archaeologists would be way off on this, because you have like this national pride thing, and you just wanna like say that it was like this modern, you know?

• 2:47:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:42Jesse Michels?

  Like, or whatever, whatever modern thing. You would never wanna predate it to some antecedent global civilization.

• 2:47:49Speaker 01

  Oh, exactly. That's where I come from.

• 2:47:51Jesse Michels?

  You know, it's the proto-layer to everything. Like, that would suck, right? If you're, especially if you're like the minister of culture for like a specific region?

• 2:47:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:58Jesse Michels?

  You would never wanna do that. So it makes sense, like incentive-wise, why you would like ignore all of this, or you would say, you know, this is a tip of a spear when it's in fact the seeds of knowledge, like, that's really interesting.

• 2:48:10Speaker 01

  Now, and now, let me, let me show you one more image really quick to compare to that. I think you're gonna really like this. Take a look at- This one right here. So this is from, that's from the back of the Sun Gate in Tiwanaku, Bolivia.

• 2:48:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:25Speaker 01

  And it's the same concept of the three doorways.

• 2:48:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:27Speaker 01

  You see that?

• 2:48:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:28Speaker 01

  Now, look at closely at the left and right side of those doorways. Do you see the T-pillar design?

• 2:48:36Speaker 01

  It's got the same top with the three levels within it, just the same as the T-pillar.

• 2:48:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:43Speaker 01

  Now, now, watch this. I want to show you one more.

• 2:48:45Jesse Michels?

  Okay. And where, where, and where is that?

• 2:48:47Speaker 01

  That's in Tiwanaku, Bolivia.

• 2:48:48Jesse Michels?

  Bolivia. Jesus, that's so interesting.

• 2:48:52Speaker 01

  This is Pumapunku. There's your key.

• 2:48:55Jesse Michels?

  Do all of these have astronomical alignments too?

• 2:48:58Speaker 01

  All of them.

• 2:48:58Jesse Michels?

  All of them?

• 2:48:59Speaker 01

  Now, do you see the T again?

• 2:49:00Jesse Michels?

  This is crazy, man.

• 2:49:01Speaker 01

  Do you see the T again?

• 2:49:02Jesse Michels?

  I do, yeah.

• 2:49:03Speaker 01

  That's Pumapunku in Bolivia.

• 2:49:06Jesse Michels?

  And so, and whoa.

• 2:49:07Speaker 01

  Thousands and thousands of miles away.

• 2:49:09Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so now, I think the astri- now, I'm higher conviction that the astronomical alignments matter.

• 2:49:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:14Jesse Michels?

  Because like, if they all lined up at a specific time. So when, okay, and then can we get a little more precise about the timing, given the astronomical alignments? Or these could be broad ranges?

• 2:49:24Speaker 01

  There's different times when they can align. The one thing I can say is, I'm very compelled with the research that's done with Geodesy, looking at where the North Pole was.

• 2:49:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:33Speaker 01

  In relation to true north.

• 2:49:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:35Speaker 01

  And also where, for instance, I was mentioning these Suci temples, they faced either west or east, but not anymore. They're offset. So for instance, let's say, this is east, right?

• 2:49:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:45Speaker 01

  And this is west, right? Instead of being east, they're like that.

• 2:49:49Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:49:49Speaker 01

  And instead of being west, they're like that.

• 2:49:51Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:49:52Speaker 01

  And so, it's like, well, when did the earth, when was the tilt different so that they faced east?

• 2:49:57Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:49:58Speaker 01

  And same thing as when did they, the temples faced true, like, true north, not, you know, when was, when was the North Pole, uh, mag- you know, true north not where it is now?

• 2:50:08Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:50:09Speaker 01

  So those are ways that we can start to understand these in a different way. And I'll make sure we put all those images online, so people can see what we were looking at, um, during this.

• 2:50:17Jesse Michels?

  And so, the, the Big Dipper is like, seven stars, right? Is, is that right?

• 2:50:21Speaker 01

  Two, three. I'd have to add them up again.

• 2:50:23Jesse Michels?

  I think it's seven, and I think Polaris is considered.

• 2:50:26Speaker 01

  Well, it's one of the stars of the Big Dipper. It's the end of the ladle.

• 2:50:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and it's considered, I think, in, you know, like, I think Ezekiel's chariots go towards that, like, you know, the North Star Polaris. And so I do think in a lot of these hermetic traditions, right, like, you go towards, you know, the, the, the North Star.

• 2:50:43Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I think by doing that, again, it's that concept of geodesy. If you align yourselves, cardinal points of the earth, both solar and magnetic, you create something. Like, something special.

• 2:50:56Jesse Michels?

  Does any of this relate to the modern UFO phenomena? I know it's a really weird question.

• 2:51:02Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I think, I would just, I'll throw out that I think a lot of UFOs are based on, like, secret government technology.

• 2:51:09Jesse Michels?

  Yep. And then what percentage do you think any of them are not? Or do you think all, all of them are based on secret government tech?

• 2:51:15Speaker 01

  Um, I will tell you that, uh, I think the concept of ancient aliens has been a bit skewed. From what I look at with these gods like Haldi, it seems more like some kind of celestial intelligence that is far more powerful than that concept. Related more towards a greater concept than someone coming here in a ship. Um, in fact, the nearest star system to us would take, like, a hundred light years to get to. It's, it's really, it, it, it, I mean, light years, if we could travel at the speed of light. It seems to me...

• 2:51:49Jesse Michels?

  I think it would take 80,000 years with chemical, chemical combustion, Proctomus and Tari.

• 2:51:54Speaker 01

  It seems to me that, yeah, I probably didn't get that number quite right. But it seems to me that we, uh, were maybe misinterpreting our way of looking at the influences of these. And I'm not saying it's just man. I don't think that. I think that there's something greater and higher. And I think they're what has been confused with being angels and demons throughout history.

• 2:52:17Jesse Michels?

  Do you think the angels and demons are still with us at all?

• 2:52:20Speaker 01

  I don't think they ever leave. I think there's some kind of a being bound to this reality. And that's why they seem to show that they're the guardians of balance here.

• 2:52:32Jesse Michels?

  So you think they're guardians coexisting with humanity right now?

• 2:52:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then we somehow have a connection to them in a way where we are almost like children of that. And that we're growing up to learn our true potential and that they're like the teachers.

• 2:52:45Jesse Michels?

  Where are the guardians?

• 2:52:46Speaker 01

  I believe that we're now supposed to find our way back on our own.

• 2:52:51Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 2:52:52Speaker 01

  And that we were given the keys.

• 2:52:54Jesse Michels?

  Do you think these are?

• 2:52:55Speaker 01

  There. That's why I think all that happened is that we were given the keys there and that we lost them. And now it's our turn to find our way back.

• 2:53:03Jesse Michels?

  Do you think the guardians are physical beings or non-physical?

• 2:53:05Speaker 01

  I think they can be physical if they want to. But they seem like they're very, very powerful celestial beings. In hermeticism, they call them the second mind.

• 2:53:13Jesse Michels?

  Yep. I do think about like where humanity could head and you have like two paths, right? Say we have to inflect down or up. And down is like we are extremely resource constrained. We go through some Althusian cycle. We live in this totalitarian world. We're all microchipped. We have to, you know, we barely have access to clean water. And then the other future is like a ton of resource abundance via, you know, technology or whatever. So I think in both, in both cases, you'd end up in some sort of simulation. Because you're gonna have like, you know, the increase of, you know, IT, you know, like, like high fidelity, like simulations, all of VR or whatever, Neuralink, you know, higher bandwidth

• 2:53:55Jesse Michels?

  relationship with computation, you know, that, that's probably just gonna increase.

• 2:54:00Speaker 01

  But that's our path. That doesn't mean that that was their path.

• 2:54:03Jesse Michels?

  Well, where I think it gets interesting is even if we inflect downwards. So if you inflect downwards, like Ready Player One, like you wanna opt into the simulation. If you inflect upwards, it's probably through tech that's a dual use. So it's like controlled, you know, nuclear fusion creates clean energy for all. Uncontrolled nuclear fusion creates the hydrogen bomb, right? And so like basically. Like a kid in his bedroom could like blow up the world at some point in the future, probably. And so you'd need, if you were a guardian of that civilization, you would need people to be perfectly altruistic. And so maybe you'd give them some sort of simulation test.

• 2:54:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:54:39Jesse Michels?

  You know, ala like contemplation of virtue to like get outside of their simulation or cave, if you're using the Plato analogy. And so I think there's probably a version of the future in either scenario where we end up in a simulation. And then it's like, why aren't we already in that future? Why aren't we, you know, maybe these are like biological meat suits and we're in a cave right now. And there's, there, you know, these guys, the guardians are like literally like outside us, goading us with little symbology here and there. And, you know, helping us throughout our lives, but, you know, we have to sort of seek, seek the knowledge ourselves.

• 2:55:13Speaker 01

  Well, there's, there's this idea that if we can be tricked, then we're not ready. Okay. And I, so I want to get to that idea of this, these building styles. Why they do all that stuff?

• 2:55:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:24Speaker 01

  Why build all that, like these things like this? Why out of those types of stones? Why do that? I think it was a completely, the other path that humanity can take. The what, what I have studied is that there's only two real paths.

• 2:55:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:36Speaker 01

  That civilization can take.

• 2:55:38Jesse Michels?

  What are they?

• 2:55:38Speaker 01

  There's one that is a very organic, natural path. And someone might see that as being primitive, but I think that's what this other civilization took. Building out of giant stones, understanding the potential of the human energy field and the human mind. To unlock abilities that we no longer remember any longer. Telekinesis, potentially levitation.

• 2:56:00Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:56:01Speaker 01

  Things that we don't understand, where they seem to be in harmonic resonance with the earth and the universe.

• 2:56:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:07Speaker 01

  And I think that path is the complete opposite from what we took.

• 2:56:10Jesse Michels?

  I agree.

• 2:56:11Speaker 01

  And then there's the other path, which is like a cheating system, which is where you, you piggyback off of. Fossil fuels and then have like this massive jumpstart by getting ahead in your civilization by kind of polluting the world and getting further and further away from spirit and source, though.

• 2:56:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:28Speaker 01

  It's like you get there kind of quick, like what happens in the last 500 years.

• 2:56:32Jesse Michels?

  I think there's this addiction to, you know, the Kardashev scale. So there's this idea of, you know, I think it's like 70s, like Soviet astronomers or something. This idea of like, uh, levels of energy, you know, ability to manipulate levels of energy allow us to kind of travel at, you know, at different levels, interstellar. And so, you know, there's a single planet civilization, multi-planet civilization, you know, multi-galactic civilization, and you get, you get to higher levels. And I think we're sort of addicted to this idea of like getting to, you know, increased, increased levels of kind of energy density.

• 2:57:04Speaker 01

  It's a 3D concept, though.

• 2:57:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think there's, there's something actually very magical about human biology and the Earth, and the Earth itself, and there's sort of, there's a technology involved in like the construction of us and, and life and biological life that is, I'm sort of a biological exceptionist, exceptionalist, like I think there's something very uniquely special about biology that we don't, we don't understand.

• 2:57:27Speaker 01

  100%.

• 2:57:28Jesse Michels?

  And, um, and you know, there are all these examples, so like the emerging, you know, we're, we're trying to build quantum computers right now, and you know, the bottleneck is keeping the chips in these extremely cool environments. It's really energy intensive, you know, it's a material science problem as well. And, you know, increasingly you have this field of quantum biology where we're actually finding out all sorts of quantum processes in the human body and other animal organisms, whether it's Robins kind of navigating home via the magnetosphere of the Earth.

• 2:57:54Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 2:57:55Jesse Michels?

  The CRY4 protein, or, you know, enzyme creation via quantum tunneling or photosynthesis, you know, all this stuff is kind of emerging. And then I, I think there's an interesting, you know, quantum mechanics interpretation, which gets so overused, to be honest, on channels like Gaia and in the self-help community, but that actually was pretty well studied in the form of parapsychology where, you know, um, this idea that, you know, wave function collapses, this completely random process that has nothing to do with the mind. All of the people Who created this stuff, Schrodinger himself probably would have, you know, what did entertain the idea that the mind was part of.

• 2:58:35Speaker 01

  Co-creating reality.

• 2:58:36Jesse Michels?

  Collapse, yeah.

• 2:58:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:58:37Jesse Michels?

  And the Copenhagen School is completely consistent with.

• 2:58:40Speaker 01

  I believe that.

• 2:58:40Jesse Michels?

  That interpretation, yes. And so, yeah, totally. So I think there is something very unique and special about consciousness that materialist productionist scientists.

• 2:58:49Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 2:58:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:51Speaker 01

  That's the big piece, I think, that's missing.

• 2:58:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:53Speaker 01

  Is that we are far more powerful than we realize.

• 2:58:55Jesse Michels?

  Oh, way more.

• 2:58:56Speaker 01

  And that our consciousness is not localized, that we have this idea that we want to physically travel somewhere, but perhaps we're looking at it in the wrong way.

• 2:59:05Jesse Michels?

  A hundred percent. And in two ways, both in the form of chemical combustion rockets.

• 2:59:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:59:11Jesse Michels?

  And then also in the form of this Silicon Valley cult of transhumanism, where we need a higher bandwidth relationship with classical computers when, you know, I think our brain is actually sort of a quantum computer.

• 2:59:20Speaker 01

  It is.

• 2:59:21Jesse Michels?

  And it has some sort of tesseract holograph component.

• 2:59:24Speaker 01

  It's like we're a.

• 2:59:25Jesse Michels?

  At a higher dimensional space.

• 2:59:26Speaker 01

  I believe that we're like antennas.

• 2:59:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:29Speaker 01

  And if we can tap into this certain frequency, we tap into this all-knowing, this and this type of, like a Koshic record, almost like source energy, and that we are a very, very special and very divine being, we just don't remember.

• 2:59:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I agree with that. Well, I think the, and that's what mystery rituals do, is they, so like, the idea that the body and the brain is actually a collapsing function, it's a narrowing valve, a filtering of something that involves greater omniscience beneath it, is this age-old idea, and it's completely unfalsifiable to say that consciousness is locally produced and not actually transmitted in some.

• 3:00:11Speaker 01

  I can't wait till that goes away. I'm so frustrated by that.

• 3:00:14Jesse Michels?

  I think it will, because there's more evidence. Think about it even phenomenologically.

• 3:00:19Speaker 01

  The brain does not create consciousness.

• 3:00:21Jesse Michels?

  When you are daydreaming, where is that, the content of your thoughts, where is that being produced? William James, you know, Aldous Huxley, all these people were big fans of this transmission theory of consciousness, and you have this binding problem of consciousness, where you have no idea how the disparate parts of our brain, you know, you have.

• 3:00:37Speaker 01

  It's very mysterious.

• 3:00:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, melded together.

• 3:00:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:00:40Jesse Michels?

  You would have a binding problem of a radio. You need to know that it has an antenna that is transmitting a signal.

• 3:00:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:00:46Jesse Michels?

  To know that, why it's playing, you know, Vivaldi's Four Seasons, or Tupac, or whatever. And so it's like, this really important question, and. Yeah, I mean, I can get into even crazier theories around, you know, an extended version of electrodynamics that that might involve, I don't, we haven't figured it out scientifically. But mystery rituals point to this because if you look at the Eleusinian mysteries or any of these other rituals, they involve the temporary killing of the physical body through a near-death experience. And then you remember your, it's called noesis, is the Greek, you remember your primordial soul self.

• 3:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:01:24Jesse Michels?

  And then you come back with this knowledge of your own immortality and this sort of renewed confidence in your life.

• 3:01:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, because energy can't be destroyed, it can only change state.

• 3:01:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:33Speaker 01

  Which means that if we're, if our spirit is connected to a reincarnation system of our soul.

• 3:01:39Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 3:01:39Speaker 01

  Then it means that we never truly die.

• 3:01:41Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 3:01:42Speaker 01

  And that the fear of death is actually just to keep us trapped here.

• 3:01:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and that was that, there was that Greek cathedral that said, if you, if you die before you die, you won't die when you die, or whatever. And that's, that, it really is the kind of underlying principle behind all of these rituals.

• 3:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:02:00Jesse Michels?

  And, you know, whether it's in the Amazon, putting your hand in a glove full of 20,000 bullet ants, you're kind of switching the thing off, and that's an act of faith, because you, you then realize that the world is much more expansive.

• 3:02:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:02:12Jesse Michels?

  And if you look at like the Neoplatonists, like, like Platinius, for example, would say that, you know, simulation is used all the time in today's world, but it's used in this sort of nihilistic, post-modern, you know, Baudelard, you know, simulacra, you know, it's just a video game, right? But there's this Platonic sense that like, and Platinius would say, like, we are, we are, as a souls, porting ourselves into a low-level reality.

• 3:02:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:02:37Jesse Michels?

  And that's probably, I don't know, both these things are unambigtable.

• 3:02:41Speaker 01

  Well, that's the journey that I told you, it's that, starting from a higher place, and then ending up having to go through the wandering of the darkness of a lower state, and then finding our way back.

• 3:02:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:02:52Speaker 01

  I think that's the game.

• 3:02:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:02:53Speaker 01

  And along the way, we learn incredible lessons about how to exist from, I think, what starts as a metaphysical existence into this physical reality.

• 3:03:04Speaker 01

  And then having to learn real consequences and lessons about growth, the growth of our soul, the growth of what kind of a, what kind of a being we want to be. And how we, how our collective consciousness can rise up and be raised by that, that growth.

• 3:03:20Jesse Michels?

  So why do you feel like you're driven to uncover kind of the secrets of ancient civilization?

• 3:03:26Speaker 01

  I, I, I have believed based on certain experiences I've had that I probably had a life in one of these ancient civilizations with some of these things because they feel, a lot of it feels very driven and very important to me in this life to uncover these and connect them. And I, I feel like it's more of, sometimes it almost feels a little bit like remembering, but not in the sense where I'm trying to claim that I'm, you know, tapping into something. For instance, I'm not trying to say like, oh, I remember all this stuff and I haven't done the research. It's more like as you're, I'm going along and connecting all these dots, you sort of have like a knowing.

• 3:04:11Speaker 01

  You're like, oh shoot, like of course, right? And, and then also what happens is then you like go deeper and then you get to another layer. It's like an onion. And then it's like, oh, hey, by the way, you were right before, but that's not the same. There's like a more expansive way to look at it. And you say, oh, I get it. Like I didn't see that before. And then it keeps going. And there's, there's these like steps and levels to understanding this nature of reality.

• 3:04:36Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think, you know, and there's a Plato dialogue, you know, Mino, where he says all knowledge is recollection. And I think the idea that we are just running some like local optimizer to like learn random things to just lead a good life or whatever, it's total BS. You are, when you learn something that sticks with you, like how does memory work? It's the reinforcement or articulation of probably latent knowledge inside of you. And you see it and there's some resonance and you're like, this is, this is really interesting. I have to focus on this and I don't know why. And then that leads to other things. And if you were. If people were honest about their own epistemics, that would be how everybody would describe how they navigate life and they wouldn't be able to navigate life otherwise.

• 3:05:21Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, that's the future is this is here's the thing I I see that that's actually unlocked a lot of this is that. Your intuition is your guidance. Get out of your brain. Use that for things like silly, you know, get figuring math stuff out in bills and. Things like that. But when you want to make really important decisions or paths in life.

• 3:05:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:41Speaker 01

  Get out of this.

• 3:05:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:43Speaker 01

  Get into this.

• 3:05:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:44Speaker 01

  Trust, trust yourself. Trust that you're more powerful than you've been told and trust that you're being guided. And I'm telling you, the doors just unlock and all of a sudden, these divine synchronicities happen, right? You're like. You trust, you like you give it a little bit of trust and then something happens and then you're like, whoa, and then it leads to something else.

• 3:06:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:02Speaker 01

  And you're like, how did that even just happen?

• 3:06:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:06:04Speaker 01

  And then it blows your mind and then you start being like, well, this is like a trippy thing. And then you, the more you go down it, the more you realize that we're definitely part of this like guided divine story. And you can play a part in that. You can either, right, you can either, like Shakespeare said, right, all of the world is a stage. What which part do you want to play? Do you want to play the the hero, the uh, the antagonist? Do you want to play just someone kind of neutral, like an NPC in the background? If at any, any point based on free will, you can decide to kind of wake up and to start that journey.

• 3:06:36Jesse Michels?

  Using your intuition, where do you think the best next big breakthrough is going to come from? And I'll I'll ask it differently because I think a lot of times. People in your position, Robert Schock's position, Graham Hancock's position, you end up in this sort of liminal space where like. Half of the people that like resonate with your stuff, you know, all these people who like listen, hear you out. Really agree with you and they're like, this makes so much sense. This is right. We've been lied to about ancient civilization. Do you think there's a point in our lifetime, or at any point in the near future, where this flips into, "Oh, this is the consensus."

• 3:07:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:07:15Jesse Michels?

  Like, all of these, you know, Fertile Crescent is the cradle of civilization, and all of these kind of like, hyper-nationalized stories are just kind of BS. And a lot of this ancient architecture, all over the world, comports with universal symbology.

• 3:07:31Speaker 01

  Yes. I think that the reason it hasn't come out yet, is that humanity wasn't ready. It's like a mystery school. It's like the adepts are ready when they're ready. And we, as a collective, have not been ready yet. We've been governed by lower consciousness in different aspects of energy, and that's why these things have been able to be held back. Because we allowed it. But that's, there was a tipping point, like Graham says, "I believe our entire history has been built on a foundation of sand." And that's, that tide is coming in right now.

• 3:08:01Jesse Michels?

  Well, I, I think, I mean, just thinking, again, using the, my left-brain logical, like, how most people think out there, I think the way to tip the scales here would be to come up with some new age-dating method, beyond carbon dating. If we could somehow do that for any of these structures, and then if we could find more of them, you mentioned, like, maybe a half dozen. If we could find more of them, and we could date them all, I, I think we'd get to this point of, this critical threshold of, it's beyond a reasonable doubt.

• 3:08:34Speaker 01

  Well, let me add something to that. I guess this is, this would probably be helpful for you. I am part of a very significant documentary that I'm leading.

• 3:08:40Jesse Michels?

  Awesome.

• 3:08:41Speaker 01

  With some very interesting individuals around the world, including some of the ones you've already mentioned, that we are trying to do that very thing right now.

• 3:08:49Jesse Michels?

  Epic.

• 3:08:50Speaker 01

  And we're right in the middle of that. We've, those trips I mentioned to you, were scouting trips, that are out in advance of something much greater, that we are building for a documentary that we hope helps to shift, that an entire narrative.

• 3:09:05Jesse Michels?

  Super exciting. Well, if I can join for any leg of that trip, count me in, man. I'm serious. I'll fly wherever and just be a fly on the wall and, you know, it'd be awesome to witness history, so.

• 3:09:16Speaker 01

  It's very exciting. The documentary goes from these sites in Turkey that includes Peru, Bolivia, and Menorca, Spain, and will potentially expand on other things. But let's just say that some of these secrets are, we have some very compelling data and some very interesting things that I can't, I can't share everything yet, but stay tuned because things are about to get exciting.

• 3:09:42Jesse Michels?

  Anything you can hint at and anything mind-blowing that we missed?

• 3:09:45Speaker 01

  There's some very interesting, there is some potential dating stuff that I can't talk about yet.

• 3:09:50Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 3:09:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:09:52Jesse Michels?

  That's gonna, smoking gun that things are older than we think?

• 3:09:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So stay tuned. I've had to have a vow of secrecy on that one.

• 3:10:01Jesse Michels?

  That's really exciting.

• 3:10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:10:03Jesse Michels?

  Wow. Well, if we could get that, man. Help me, I mean, let me help you break it. Come back and we'll, we'll, we'll talk about it.

• 3:10:11Speaker 01

  I will, I will. It's an ongoing project. We are, we want to make sure we do our due diligence to explore all these places before actually filming so we can make sure that we, we tell the story and present the evidence in the best way possible.

• 3:10:27Jesse Michels?

  Very cool. And is it, it's you, Robert Schock, anybody else?

• 3:10:30Speaker 01

  We have a whole team. And again, some, I want, I don't want to say that just because everyone's involved in it that they have to have a certain perspective. I want to just throw that out there that all the people involved in this are experts in their field and they are just bringing their expertise and we are investigating these mysteries. But it doesn't mean anyone has to necessarily be on board to anything. But yes, we have experts like Robert Schock, we have Robert Edward Grant, we have archaeologist

• 3:11:01Jesse Michels?

  He's a simologist?

• 3:11:02Speaker 01

  Polymath. We have archaeologist Hans Orheim. We have sacred geometry expert Arturo, Arturo Ponce de Leon, and we have Lydia

• 3:11:13Jesse Michels?

  Ponce de Leon?

• 3:11:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:11:15Jesse Michels?

  He must have changed that name.

• 3:11:16Speaker 01

  And then we have, we have Lydia, Lydia de Leon. So we have some, we have some really, really interesting. We also have Paul Wallace, who's a biblical expert. I don't know if you've heard of Paul Wallace.

• 3:11:27Jesse Michels?

  I know.

• 3:11:28Speaker 01

  And some others that we're, we're putting together to investigate some of these mysteries right now.

• 3:11:33Jesse Michels?

  Fantastic. Well, I'm super excited to see what you guys dig up. I think it's a really interesting time. It's convergence of the world kind of waking up to a lot of this stuff, this collective amnesia possibly, as well as just a new tech that where ideally we can sort of date these things.

• 3:11:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And if you want to support that, the stage of time.com, you can go to documentary on the tab, the tab there. And we have all that information there for what we're doing.

• 3:11:59Jesse Michels?

  Awesome. Have you ever read a book called Forbidden Archaeology by any chance?

• 3:12:03Speaker 01

  I have.

• 3:12:03Jesse Michels?

  If you're familiar with it. So they talk about a lot of these, you know, like the antique theory mechanism, you know, that was found on this island in Greece, you know, where it's basically you can predict.

• 3:12:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm well aware of it.

• 3:12:15Jesse Michels?

  Planetary alignments and positioning via this like early computer or something. Do you think that a lot of this theory that you're kind of stumbling into explains a lot of that, you know, astronomically and technologically precocious?

• 3:12:32Speaker 01

  Because they had mastered those things. And the reason why we don't find much of it is because if you have enormous amounts of time that go by with catastrophes, there's very little that can survive a civilization. And I would bring up what would survive our civilization?

• 3:12:48Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 3:12:48Speaker 01

  I mean, if you think about it, wood would just rot, metal would corrode, glass would just break off and disappear and round out into what looks like, you know, quartz almost, and then shatter into smaller pieces.

• 3:12:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:13:00Speaker 01

  Things like what do we actually have that would survive? Digital records would all be gone, paper gone in 500 to 1,000 years. All we would have is getting back to what they did is the stonework from churches and chapels and things that would literally be all that would survive us.

• 3:13:16Jesse Michels?

  Yep. Maybe humans are storage mechanisms.

• 3:13:19Speaker 01

  Exactly. And so I think that's, that's the thing that really needs to be iterated here is that we look at so little that's left, but really like there's quite a bit considering how much time has gone by. So many thousands of years and yet structures like we just pointed out like Ionis just remain that they remain the test of time. And their teachings survive until we're ready to finally understand what they really mean.

• 3:13:48Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating, man. Well, Matt, I really appreciate your time. This was awesome and

• 3:13:52Speaker 01

  You too, Jesse. I enjoyed that conversation.

• 3:13:53Jesse Michels?

  It was great. Yeah, well, I feel like we're just on the precipice of I'd love to help in any way push this forward because I think it's like really important stuff and I want to get to the bottom of it. If we could somehow figure out that all of this was older, there were more than what we have now and that you have still you have consistent symbology across all these sites. You know, that's just this massive exciting.

• 3:14:17Speaker 01

  That's what we're working to do right now and I feel like we're at that precipice right now where that old foundation is collapsing.

• 3:14:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:14:23Speaker 01

  The sand foundation and we're at the edge where it's going to be a tipping point. Where all of a sudden, once we bring out some of this good evidence and some of these new things emerging, that it's going to just shift like dominoes.

• 3:14:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, look, like I think instrumentation is really crucial for ontological understanding of truth. So it's like Galileo needed a telescope to tell us that we didn't live in a heliocentric universe. And there's so many examples, the discovery of like bacteria in the late 19th century, you know, whatever. Electrons, you know, via, you know, microscopy or whatever. That perceptual hacking or whatever is like how we understand the true world that we're probably swimming in and living in outside of our

• 3:15:07Speaker 01

  It's called awareness.

• 3:15:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's awareness.

• 3:15:09Speaker 01

  You increase your awareness of everything.

• 3:15:10Jesse Michels?

  So the idea that like we won't have a profoundly different understanding of the origins of humanity near term even, given that archaeology is in its modern form only, you know, sub 200 years old is actually, I think, involves a lot of hubris and is probably just completely wrong. You know, there's a great book called The Half-Life of Facts by a guy named Samuel Arbusman and he talks about facts and consensus being like almost acting like radioactive isotope decay where like half of the facts slop off. And we overturn them constantly.

• 3:15:43Speaker 01

  I see this as having, I just want to say this and we can, we can end out is that I see it as being this enormous shift that all of a sudden just pivots.

• 3:15:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:15:54Speaker 01

  I have, I have archaeologists that email me all the time, young, young guys in school, young girls in school, like wanting to, like learning about archaeology or they're new to archaeology, they're just starting out and they're like, I want to make a difference, but I don't want to follow the old narrative.

• 3:16:08Jesse Michels?

  So.

• 3:16:08Speaker 01

  Once it shifts, once we see that shift, and all of those listening to this, imagine what we can accomplish if we're all on the same team.

• 3:16:16Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 3:16:17Speaker 01

  Open-minded, objective science like it was supposed to be all along, just the facts, look into what's there, have no bias, what, and that, that's a broad spectrum across everything. What could humanity do if we were under the lens of like trying to better ourselves and understand who we really are, what could we unlock and achieve together?

• 3:16:37Jesse Michels?

  I think it's Asylla and Charybdis, and on the one hand you have new agey magical thinking, but on the other hand, you have equally dogmatic skepticism. And if, right now, we have too much skepticism and it's this citadel, this priestly citadel of expert, you know, class or whatever, that's trying to keep everybody else out. And I think that there's a beauty of the internet because the internet is more of a true marketplace of ideas than sort of legacy media. And you can see Graham Hancock debate Flint Dibble and then you can fact check Flint Dibble and realize that he got all his shipwreck data completely wrong and he lied about it. And like, it's this beautiful collective kind of Socratic process of like accessing

• 3:17:19Jesse Michels?

  truth that's kind of, you know, despite backdoors and the social media platforms, Allah Twitter files or whatever, it's kind of hard to shut down, like it's this.

• 3:17:28Speaker 01

  It's, it's growing and it can't be stopped.

• 3:17:30Jesse Michels?

  This octopus that's just growing, yeah.

• 3:17:32Speaker 01

  You can't take it back out of the, once the box is open, right? It's like, this is all opening up right now, you can't put it back.

• 3:17:38Jesse Michels?

  You can't put it back.

• 3:17:39Speaker 01

  It's only going to grow to a greater understanding and eventually it's just going to tip the scales and then, and I encourage all archaeologists and scientists, whatever, whoever you are, free thinkers of the world, to understand that, you know, this is about to shift and just imagine what we can all accomplish together on that kind of mindset.

• 3:17:56Jesse Michels?

  I would love that, man. Well, let's, let's do it and, okay, final question. Any of these sort of ancient, you know, symbolic structures, whether it's the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail, like some of these, you know, things that we've quested for, for thousands of years, do you have high conviction that any of these exist? And if so, what's the thing that your highest conviction in and where do you think it's located?

• 3:18:20Speaker 01

  One of the things that that may happen with this shift is during transparency, we may end up realizing that there are things that have been hidden deliberately, things that have been hidden in certain parts of the world. I'll just say this, certain ancient temples that have been dismantled and things that have been removed, and I have found very, very compelling evidence that that has happened.

• 3:18:45Jesse Michels?

  Temple, which temple?

• 3:18:46Speaker 01

  Some of the ones that we are just referring to.

• 3:18:49Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 3:18:50Speaker 01

  In that region and that there are, and other things that have been deliberately hidden, for instance, the 40,000 cuneiform tablets at the Asher Bunno Paul Library, around 150 have been translated out of 40,000.

• 3:19:02Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:19:03Speaker 01

  We have to start asking about bringing together a global awareness of what has happened to all these things, where they have gone, and what maybe we can glean from them. And so I would just say that this shift over to a new paradigm of thinking, an open-minded, objective science to understand who we really are and what has happened to us in the past, will also unlock some other secrets regarding things that have been hidden from us for a very long time.

• 3:19:30Jesse Michels?

  And I think that the bifurcation of mythology and quote unquote "history" is ridiculous because a lot of the past comprised mythology and religion. And so you have, you know, Heinrich von Schliemann in 1871 being motivated by Thucydides and Homer, everybody was saying that was just mythology, and then he finds Troy.

• 3:19:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 3:19:50Jesse Michels?

  And then now we

• 3:19:51Speaker 01

  Arduous Sherupac, like we just went over this, right?

• 3:19:53Jesse Michels?

  Arduous Sherupac, we're finding that out now. You know, Plato saying, you know, at Timaeus and Kurtaeus, you know, at this Mythos Festival, saying that 9,000 years ago, we fought against Atlantis, the Athenians did. And so increasingly, and then maybe that's Meltwater Pals 1B, or maybe that's some other thing, whatever.

• 3:20:14Speaker 01

  We can have another conversation about that, I could bring some stuff to that next time, we could talk about it.

• 3:20:17Jesse Michels?

  Oh, really?

• 3:20:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:20:19Jesse Michels?

  Oh, interesting. Plato?

• 3:20:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think Plato has been overly, and I believe what he's saying, but I mean, I think there's even better evidence for Atlantis besides that.

• 3:20:28Jesse Michels?

  Well, tell me. No, you got, this is totally relevant to our conversation today. You gotta tell.

• 3:20:32Speaker 01

  Okay, I'll just, I'll say this, and then we can end out.

• 3:20:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:20:35Speaker 01

  But, for instance, Plato, of course, is, Socrates, his mentor, was murdered and poisoned during that time period because he spoke out. Not necessarily about lost civilizations, but he just spoke out.

• 3:20:45Jesse Michels?

  He drank a poison.

• 3:20:46Speaker 01

  He was forced to, he was forced to drink hemlock. It was his choice to die. His choice of death because he had to.

• 3:20:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:20:51Speaker 01

  It was like, you can do this, this, or this.

• 3:20:53Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 3:20:53Speaker 01

  The problem was Plato was very concerned about speaking openly about things because of, again, his mentor was killed.

• 3:21:00Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 3:21:01Speaker 01

  He was devastated. Others couldn't speak out. So I think that's why he, he took all those things and put them into allegory. Okay? However, the thing that I think people miss

• 3:21:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:21:10Speaker 01

  is that there's another poet and philosopher called Plutarch. There's also Diodorus, but Plutarch never gets talked about. Plutarch-

• 3:21:19Jesse Michels?

  I have his book, Plutarch's Lives.

• 3:21:21Speaker 01

  Well, in Plutarch, he describes how there was a very specific elder priest at the temple of Sais in Egypt named Sancho, and he describes him in great detail. And I realize that if we look at that on paper, having an individual called out that has very, a name that has a standing as a certain elder priest of an actual temple that they found, and there's pictures of, brings it, the whole thing out of allegory into a realism sense. Plutarch describes Sancho in great detail as being the elder priest of the temple of Sais, and therefore, I think justifying that the story was not allegorical and was actually real.

• 3:22:03Jesse Michels?

  But, and so, oh, interesting. So he talks about him as like a historical figure?

• 3:22:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 3:22:08Jesse Michels?

  And was he the one that relayed that Solon-

• 3:22:10Speaker 01

  He was the one that Solon learned the entire story from Atlantis from.

• 3:22:13Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 3:22:14Speaker 01

  Is a very specific, so what I mean is, you think about something like, oh, that sounds fun, like, meeting up with hypothetical priests-

• 3:22:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:22:20Speaker 01

  -down in, down in Egypt, okay? But how about Plutarch's version where he actually describes a specific individual in history that is the elder priest- Of the Temple of Saes named Sancho, who is the one who who had all the knowledge because he was the elder priest and they all the other ones were supporting of him.

• 3:22:37Jesse Michels?

  Oh, why does nobody bring that up? That's wild.

• 3:22:39Speaker 01

  That's what I think too.

• 3:22:40Jesse Michels?

  And we know that Sancho went to Egypt?

• 3:22:43Speaker 01

  No, Sancho was the elder priest of the Temple of Saes that Solon went down to meet. And that's who told him the entire story of Atlantis and he and and ancient Athenian.

• 3:22:52Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so Solon never went directly to Egypt. Sancho.

• 3:22:56Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. Solon learned the story from Sancho. He was the elder priest of the Temple of Saes of these other priests. So when Plato talks about it.

• 3:23:07Jesse Michels?

  And did Sancho go to Egypt, though, or like was this?

• 3:23:11Speaker 01

  Sancho is the elder priest of the Temple of Saes.

• 3:23:13Jesse Michels?

  I get, I get that.

• 3:23:14Speaker 01

  Temple of Saes is Egypt.

• 3:23:15Jesse Michels?

  Oh, that's in Egypt. Okay, got it.

• 3:23:17Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying?

• 3:23:18Jesse Michels?

  Got it.

• 3:23:18Speaker 01

  So it's no longer a hypothetical place that Solon goes to to find out a story.

• 3:23:22Jesse Michels?

  Wild.

• 3:23:23Speaker 01

  It's a very specific place that was number one verified and number two, now we have an historical figure. Who was the elder priest that knew all the knowledge and talked about how that literally was the purpose of the Temple of Saes? Was to be a record keeping location for ancient history.

• 3:23:38Jesse Michels?

  No way. We know that.

• 3:23:40Speaker 01

  And it was destroyed at some point within the next 500 years to 1,000 years. It didn't exist and like we never saw it again.

• 3:23:47Jesse Michels?

  Have we dug it up at all or?

• 3:23:48Speaker 01

  No, no, it was like wiped out and just disappeared in history.

• 3:23:51Jesse Michels?

  The Temple of Saes.

• 3:23:51Speaker 01

  We have paintings made from it from descriptions of those who saw it.

• 3:23:55Jesse Michels?

  How do we know that it was this historical record keeping place?

• 3:23:59Speaker 01

  Because Plutarch goes into details of talking about Sancho as being the elder priest of that entire temple. Who was basically giving descriptions of it in a way that Plato doesn't even do.

• 3:24:11Jesse Michels?

  That's wild.

• 3:24:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's another like another layer to it. If people want to go down is Plutarch.

• 3:24:15Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. Well, there you go.

• 3:24:17Speaker 01

  Kind of hidden between the lines a little bit if you're paying attention.

• 3:24:19Jesse Michels?

  I love it. Mystery continues. Well, Matt, really appreciate it, man. This is a blast.

• 3:24:24Speaker 01

  You too, Jesse. That was a great conversation.

• 3:24:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, learned so much. Yeah, to be continued.

• 3:24:28Speaker 01

  To be continued, my friend.

• 3:24:30Jesse Michels?

  Awesome, man. Cool.

• 3:24:31Speaker 01

  Well, thanks so much. And if you want to see my work, my my YouTube channel is Matthew La Croix. Uh, my Instagram is the stage of time. And my website is thestageroftime.com.

• 3:24:41Jesse Michels?

  Go check it out, subscribe, like, and yeah, watch all your awesome videos. And yeah, I hope, I hope, you know, a lot of people come out and support you because I think you're doing really important work. And sometimes work like this, you know, is not, it's an, it's lies external to our, you know, capitalist system or whatever, but it's like extremely important.

• 3:25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 3:25:03Jesse Michels?

  And, and, you know, Carnegie Gospel of Wealth Sense, it should be like where the excess proceeds, you know, flow directly to immediately, like it should be the first place we fund is, is, is our, our understanding of ourselves and that should inform our culture and everything.

• 3:25:18Speaker 01

  We'll get there, Jesse. I appreciate it. It was a great conversation. Thanks, my friend.

• 3:25:22Jesse Michels?

  Awesome, man.

• 3:25:23Speaker 00

  LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot stop your new clients from emailing you at 3 a.m. We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you be in three places at once. And while we can't help you organize your calendar, LinkedIn can help you land more clients so you have a calendar to organize. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.