Pod Insights The Psychology of your 20s 259. Confronting our family dynamics in adulthood ft. Gwendolyn Watson About this episode Childhood is a funny thing. You can only really understand it in hindsight and as we become adults we begin to reconsider the ways in which our families have shaped us, for better or for worse. In today's episode, we break down the complicated ways we rethink our family dynamics in adulthood, including:
What happens when our family lets us down Our adult reaction to childhood trauma Do we confront our family or move past it? Dealing with emotionally immature parents How to find closure on your own Navigating difficult family dynamics around the holidays We welcomed on an amazing guest, Gwendloyn Watson, a Marriage and Family Therapist with an expertise in navigating complicated family dynamics and her family story to guide us through these topics.
You can find Gwen here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gwendolyn-watson-lmft-3520821a/
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3:13 Jemma Sbeg? Hello everybody and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.
3:32 Jemma Sbeg? Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our twenties. Today, we are here to talk about our families, to talk about parents and family dynamics and how they change in our twenties, or more specifically, I think, how they really begin to reveal themselves to us as we further enter this decade. For many of us, you know, family is supposed to be the source of unconditional love and loyalty and support, and it's meant to be a safe haven. But what happens when that doesn't really match up with our experience?
4:17 Jemma Sbeg? And why is it that so many of us in our twenties? Really start questioning the role our families play in our lives and begin to unpack how they've shaped us for better for or for worse and how they will continue to shape us. So I really want to explore some of those common struggles that come with having a family and having strange, complicated parental dynamics and the nuances of it all. You know, I think it's really interesting that it's not black and white. It's not that you either completely hate your family, you want to be estranged from them, or you have to completely love them. A lot of us exist in the gray space in the middle. So why is that the case?
4:59 Jemma Sbeg? How do we navigate having complicated feelings towards family? And of course, I wanted to bring on an amazing guest who is an expert on this to help us rethink healthy boundaries, family expectations, all of the above. These are very big, heavy topics, but they are so necessary. So I want to welcome on Gwendolyn Watson. Gwendolyn, how are you doing?
5:21 Speaker 02 Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm doing, I'm doing great. I, this was the highlight of my day. I was looking forward to this.
5:28 Jemma Sbeg? Oh my gosh, thank you. That always makes me feel very, very happy. Just a little compliment to begin the episode.
5:36 Jemma Sbeg? No, these, none of the listeners have probably met you before, or maybe they have. But um, so can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how exactly you became well, a marriage and family therapist above all else?
5:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I, I love, I love reflecting on my journey to become a therapist because it's so aligned with some of the themes that we're going to explore as well. So, you know, grew up in a family that had a lot of dynamics. I was one of four kids. My mom, abstract painter, poet, you know, kind of very expansive woman from England. And I grew up in America and my dad was a tax lawyer from the South. So just already like.
6:19 Jemma Sbeg? How did that happen?
6:21 Speaker 02 That's a whole nother podcast of how they met.
6:23 Jemma Sbeg? Oh, my goodness.
6:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, just growing up in that environment of a lot of different perspectives on values and life. And as a middle child, as I'm sure you've explored in past episodes, a lot of my development was around really noticing how to, you know, have certain reactions from people, noticing what brought about a sense of joy, a sense of acceptance, and maybe what what things would bring about a sense of anxiety from my parents. Part of that experience, also, I'm an identical twin.
7:00 Jemma Sbeg? Oh, my goodness.
7:00 Speaker 02 I know.
7:01 Jemma Sbeg? You, oh, my God, you're a middle child and an identical twin. So you didn't even get to just be the only middle child.
7:08 Speaker 02 Exactly.
7:08 Jemma Sbeg? Someone else who was identical. Oh, my goodness.
7:10 Speaker 02 Exactly.
7:11 Jemma Sbeg? Gracious.
7:12 Speaker 02 Yeah. So my my journey into my twenties, I felt like it was one of those first times of asking myself, you know, like, how do I feel about something? What do I want? I studied art history and then jumped from that and went into Google, worked in business development for almost a decade. And yet, I found myself walking through the corridors, like walking through the cubicles, kind of keeping that that feeling of disconnection at bay. I remember one time I I walked into an empty conference room and found myself tearful and not knowing why. And it really was that, like, I was starting to get in
7:52 Speaker 02 touch with this feeling of this isn't what I want my life to be. In that process, kind of got in touch with the fact that my whole life, I've been serving some type of helping profession role. And I've always been really curious about relationships. I was a young kid, curious about my parents' relationship. I was a young kid, like, trying to negotiate friendship struggles on the playground. And I was like a very highly sensitive, attuned, emotionally attuned kid and teen and young adult. So started to think about, I think, being a therapist is is actually more aligned with
8:32 Speaker 02 what I want. And I remember calling my parents to share with them that I was I was embarking on this new journey. And in that moment, you know, I was really ready for them to like be on the same page with me. And of course, as as it happens, they they were in shock. They had a lot of anxiety, you know, they had their a lot of their own stories of raising kids with, you know, some like professional uncertainty. My dad, my dad's firm, he was working for like collapsed and he had a mortgage with three kids at the time. There's just like these own stories of their own experiences around sudden career change that were coming up.
9:14 Speaker 02 I was like, why would you like, what like you're, but you have so much stability like, and you're so good at it like not, there's no signs that you should change your career. And um, in that conversation, you know, from their own anxiety, they, you know, they said they they they had strong reactions and it was quite hurtful for me at the time, you know, now we've we've moved through it and I can see the two sides of the story. But in that moment, you know, I just was shocked that something that felt so beautiful to me was landing for them as so scary, such a bad idea, definitely not what I should be doing.
9:57 Speaker 02 And um, you know, like giving up that I was really losing and giving up as opposed to opening and gaining like a new chapter. So it it was one of those moments where I had to be at peace with,
10:14 Speaker 02 even though they're not on board, I'm on board, like I'm on board with myself and I can give them space to come around. Like, if this is true, if I'm really becoming a therapist, not to please them or to please anyone else. If this is really my vocation, then I believe in myself to put in the work to make it happen. So, yeah, that was a long, long winded answer, but now I'm I'm in private practice now, I've had a couple of different experiences as a therapist with different populations. And um, I get to work with adults and couples and families and
10:53 Speaker 02 support them in the navigation of relationships, which are, as you said in your intro, so nuanced, so complex. And really, I think the best catalyst for growth for all of us as human beings.
11:08 Jemma Sbeg? That's a really beautiful story, and I think that it ties really perfectly in with what we're talking about today, which is doing what's best for you versus what's what your family thinks is best for you, having not so much conflict, but different opinions in in families, disappointing your parents. But speaking of family, why do you think so many of us start really questioning the reality or what family should look like in our twenties? What is it about our twenties that really makes us start reconsidering how we were raised, how we grew up, and maybe some of the resentment around that as well?
11:42 Speaker 02 Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, this is assuming that you lived with your family of origin the whole time and then kind of left home in your twenties, which I know isn't the case for everyone. But assuming that progression, it can be, you know, when you're living in an environment, the ability to question what's happening, there isn't always space for that. That takes a pretty like secure and strong and safe environment to be able to outwardly name and question certain patterns or certain behaviors or certain values that are happening within a family system. So in your twenties, once
12:26 Speaker 02 you're left home, there's literally the oxygen to pause and say, hold on a second, like, what are the values that really align for me? Right? And sometimes there's this beautiful quote that I love from and for ACT Therapy, which is Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which says, "In our pain, we find our values, and in our values, we find our pain." And I think a lot of twenty in your being in your twenties is that invitation where you have the space, you often have the time to pause and say, What did I experience that did have pain? That maybe at the time I minimized or, you know, kind of brushed away or repressed
13:11 Speaker 02 or just didn't even notice, just thought it was just kind of normal? What did I experience that had some pain connected to it? And what does that tell me about what I really care about? Some of our values are adopted and kind of carried forth down the generation from our families of origin and down the generations. And some of them are in reaction to, or kind of like a renewed value that is in contrast to values that we were raised with. So, you know, I'm going on a little bit of a tangent myself, but I think that in your twenties, there's actually that space to pause and to reflect.
13:53 Speaker 02 And something that I also love thinking about for folks in their twenties, we talk a lot about, you know, you've probably heard a lot on social media and just if you're in your own therapy, your inner child. And I love introducing the concept alongside your inner child of your inner teen, who's like a fricking badass and wants to question things and wants to, you know, like, kind of like, isn't afraid to maybe disrupt the status quo or to push back about things. And your twenties is kind of the first time when you get to integrate your inner teen. Because you're not, you know, you're not living your teen years.
14:34 Speaker 02 You're able to kind of feel into that, that teen side, that hold on a second side, right? They're like, what do I care about? When do I want to speak up side? But that it's not kind of ruling the ship the same way that, you know, that you're living that in your teens, but you're also dealing with all the things you're dealing with in your teens. So your twenties, there's a way to kind of feel into that and kind of integrate, like, What part of me is in touch with my values? And maybe what part of me is, is a little bit of my inner teen, like just wanting to have fun
15:16 Speaker 02 or wanting to make mistakes or wanting to do something off the cuff and spontaneous and, and against what people expect of me. And um, so yeah, I just, I, I think the twenties, it's a beautiful, beautiful time that there's so much space for all of that.
15:31 Jemma Sbeg? Yeah.
15:31 Speaker 02 But it is, it's a really unique time to, you know, I say it's kind of like you're giving birth to yourself, um, that you're, you're allowing yourself to come into your, your adulthood.
15:43 Jemma Sbeg? Yeah. And I feel like while that's all coming up and you're having what is a really huge transformation into adulthood. Yes, you have the oxygen to look at your family differently. Like you have the breathing room and you also start to talk to other people about their experiences as well. And I think become a bit more independently educated about what may have benefited you more, what family dynamics maybe should have looked like. And with that, that can bring up the resentment of as well of, why didn't I have the childhood like that? Was that not meant to act like, was I actually not meant to be treated that way?
16:24 Jemma Sbeg? And a big question which we, which you talked about before is the, the push towards individualization. And I think a big question around becoming an individual is how would I do that differently? You know, my parents set an example, but as an individual, how would I have done that differently? And how will I do it differently in my own life with my friends, with my kids, with my family? And sometimes that brings up some heavy stuff. Um, when you begin to really realize the ways you perhaps maybe been let down, hurt by your parents or family, maybe disappointed in the past, what kind of reactions do you think people tend to have? Because it's a very hard realization.
17:09 Jemma Sbeg? I think whether you have it as a teenager or as a in your twenties, be like, oh, my family is a perfect and I'm just gonna have to live with that. What are some of the reactions we initially tend to have towards that realization?
17:23 Speaker 02 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think I you you named it with that. That experience of it's kind of an experience of grief and of of loss, like a loss of what you wished you had had.
17:42 Speaker 02 And with with grief, with any type of processing loss, like the reactions really run the gamut, right? Like that it is so individual for for some people, it might be that feeling of, you know, a feeling of anger or irritation or of sadness. You know, I do a lot with parts work, so kind of thinking about the different parts of yourself. And I think when you're talking about integrating a story of what happened in my past and how do I feel about it? My approach is always to make space for all the different parts of you and how all the different parts of you might feel. Right? There might be
18:26 Speaker 02 kind of an intellectual wise part that says, you know, well, like, this is the way that I'm gonna, you know, think about it, like clearly X, Y, Z happened and it kind of uses intellectualization to to find a narrative. And there might be that, you know, that inner, you know, maybe boundaried or angry part that really just wants to to be in touch with anger and be in touch with like, that wasn't fair. Sometimes that anger part is connected to a sense of justice, like it shouldn't have been that way. And there's often a young part that is in touch with
19:04 Speaker 02 fear or yeah, just, you know, fear or shutdown or just quite quiet.
19:11 Speaker 02 You know, sitting in the quietness of of an experience. And so. You know, I get, I get this question from clients sometimes, like, am I supposed to feel this or how should I feel? And I always want to invite, you know, actually, there are so many parts of you that are experiencing this processing of what family means or what happened that I wish hadn't happened. So how can we actually make space for all of those parts of you? And notice if one part and one side of you is really holding the microphone, no pun intended, as we hold our microphones. If one side of you, I know. If one side of you is really speaking quite loud,
19:56 Speaker 02 let's give it that space, let's let it air out how it felt. But let's also notice the other sides of you that maybe have something to say as well.
20:05 Jemma Sbeg? Yeah, absolutely.
20:06 Speaker 02 Yeah, go ahead.
20:08 Jemma Sbeg? Oh, no, I was just gonna say, like, I think anger and grief are like the two big ones. And like anger and grief are the two big ones that are very hard to process. And I've often found that if you just ignore them and you say to yourself, I have no right to be angry, or I need to put away this anger and just pretend like everything is normal. And that's very relevant, especially around the holidays when we're recording this. Yeah. That does not make it better. And that does not make it more bearable because you're still minimizing. You're still minimizing for other people, right? Any like emotional reaction you're having to being disappointed by your family
20:49 Jemma Sbeg? or disappointing your family is a reaction that I think needs to, has a full life cycle. Right? There's a birth of it normally, like when you are a child or when you are a teenager. Then there is the life of it when you're really, really feeling that emotion. And eventually the emotion might die or it might become a bit weaker, a bit more fragile. Sometimes that does take time, but also you can't put it into a box and expect that it's not going to want to break out. So I really like what you're saying, like you need to give space for every single reaction that you're feeling towards your nuanced family dynamics. When, when it's the case that you still have to be,
21:34 Jemma Sbeg? you know, be present with your family, you obviously don't, you might not want to cut them off. You know, especially around the holidays, there's a big conversation of people being like, I have to go. I'm going home for Christmas and I just know that this stuff is going to come up. I'm predicting that like, I'm probably gonna fall back into old patterns with my family. How do you navigate that? How do you make sure that you're still like looking forward and looking to heal whilst perhaps back in the same environment that caused you the pain in the first place?
22:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I wanna name that. Even the word family means so many different things for so many different people, right? And that although there is a quite common experience of when we're back with our families of origin, we suddenly find ourselves like feeling fifteen again or feeling quite young. Like, you know, and I mean, even me like peeking at forty, like this same thing happens to me. Like I Thanksgiving, I was like, God, I just, I really just feel like a fifteen year old again. So like that felt experience is is psychologically normal. I don't know how to phrase it. Like it's a shared experience that a lot of people have.
22:49 Speaker 02 And, you know, going home to family, there is it's such a spectrum. So I wanna, I wanna, um. I guess I wanna offer empathy to folks who are listening to this conversation that for some people, you might be going back to family where, you know, there are, we don't get to choose who our parents are, you know, you, it is possible that you have parents that for their own reasons and their own things that they're struggling with, have consistent and characterological ways of dismissing or hurting you physically or psychologically. And there's other people who going back to family,
23:32 Speaker 02 you know, they're going back to parents who are trying their best and still disappointing, right? That might be showing love. Through their like only know how to show loves through anxiety or no only know how to show love through criticizing. And that's it's it's intentional to say that they love you, but in actuality, like they're telling you, why are you wearing that to Christmas dinner? And it's like, really?
23:57 Jemma Sbeg? Dude, really? What's happening with your job? Like,
24:00 Speaker 02 Exactly.
24:01 Jemma Sbeg? Why are you making more money or like?
24:02 Speaker 02 Have you not? Yeah, yeah. I can't believe you broke up with that person. They were the only person who cared about you, you know, like there's so. I'm wanting to normalize the spectrum, right? And and say that, um, although there's a common experience of going to home for the holidays, like you know, your truth, you know, you know, like, am I dealing with a family that's rough around the edges and imperfect in the way that humans are imperfect? Or did I grow up in an environment where when I return home, I I really have to be cautious around what it means to navigate safety and navigate this moment. Of course, some people by that, if if they really are returning to
24:45 Speaker 02 homes where they've seen a long enough pattern of of, you know, whether it's humiliation or being put down, or really just feeling that like intentionality of power and control, they might not be going home for the holidays. They might be finding chosen friends and chosen family to be engaging in the holidays with.
25:06 Jemma Sbeg? Hmm.
25:07 Speaker 02 Um, but I I guess what I offer to my clients is pausing to think about what do you what do you want? And what do you need? Um, for me, whenever there's times when I'm going home for the holidays and there's certain things that are quite sensitive, like it feels kind of like soft belly, um, type of, um, yeah, like a soft belly up sensitivity. I don't know if that metaphor makes sense.
25:35 Jemma Sbeg? Hmm.
25:36 Speaker 02 But I might say that what I need is to not discuss the certain things that I know, like. Are quite, that I'm quite protective around, you know, so I have that awareness in advance. And if people are bringing it up or asking me about that, you know, I'll kind of respond with, with kindness, but just say like, thanks for asking, I'm not ready to talk about that or, you know, today, and I don't have the space to talk about that today. So I kind of have in advance, I've kind of prepared, like, what do I need for my own heart and soul? Um, to, to have that boundary and what do I also need for my own body, you know, for me personally? I can't drink alcohol around the holidays because I am a quite emotionally open person.
26:21 Speaker 02 And if I have even half of a drink around families who then say a comment that they mean well, but lands as criticism, I flood much more easily. So like, I'm also thinking about my own body. Like, what do I need for my own body that I can't negotiate? And then outside of that is the wants, like, what do I want for the holidays? Of course, I want to laugh and connect with my siblings and with my parents. And I, I definitely want there to be moments of shared vulnerability. Those might happen, they might not, you know, so helping differentiate between like our wish, kind of like our wish list, like our, our wants, our hopes. Um, and then our needs, like where are the places that I really want to prioritize? Um, the, the boundaries and my energy around supporting myself with those boundaries?
27:07 Speaker 02 And what are the other things that are more about me experiencing the, the, um, you know, those moments in the holidays where we have that feeling of disappointment because we had high expectations or high hopes for what it might look like. And then maybe it looks a little bit differently. And those are kind of the wants, like, did I want to have this really heart to heart, meaningful conversation with so and so on Christmas morning, maybe? And maybe it didn't happen this year, but maybe it'll be another year. So that's,
27:35 Jemma Sbeg? Yeah.
27:35 Speaker 02 That helps me differentiate between what to really put my energy behind.
27:40 Jemma Sbeg? I love the idea of having like a wish list for your family Christmas or your family holiday. My other thing is that I, I go in with really low expectations.
27:51 Speaker 02 Ah.
27:52 Jemma Sbeg? Really, really low expectations.
27:54 Speaker 02 Yeah.
27:54 Jemma Sbeg? And I also make sure that I have.
27:58 Jemma Sbeg? Firstly, I know what I don't want to talk about with my family when I'm back home. And I actually, I know it sounds like it's so simple, but I really do say like, I'm not talking about this. Please and thank you. Like, I'm not going to talk about that with you. That doesn't, and if we do, like, I'm gonna leave. Sorry. Bye. Like, I'm not, I'm gonna leave. So you can either have my company or you can have your answer to this question. Which one would you like more? And the other thing I do is I have like a little bit of an escape. I have a huge family. And yeah, huge family. It's big, complicated situation. So I also know that I need like my own time and space to get away from it. Otherwise I will literally explode.
28:43 Jemma Sbeg? We're gonna take a little bit of a break, but then I want to talk about how we can communicate the ways in which our parents or our family have disappointed us in the past after this short break.
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30:05 Jemma Sbeg? I've been approaching my health really differently this year. I used to be really focused on maximizing and doing more. And now I'm just realizing that if I listen to what my body needs, I perform way better. And that's why I am obsessed with my Whoop. Truly, you guys, you know, I'm such a data and information driven person. And I love opening my Whoop app and seeing how my sleep, my stress, my strain is correlating with my mood, with my running performance, with how I'm just feeling day to day. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I do really benefit. And I also just really enjoy knowing more about my body. And Whoop also gives me these actionable personalized insights
30:48 Jemma Sbeg? that have made me more intentional and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise,
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31:47 Jemma Sbeg? Alrighty, we are back with Gwen. So this is a complicated question that I get asked a lot. How do you bring up the times in which your family has disappointed you in the past or hurt you? Is it worth even bringing it up in your twenties? Or should you just not say anything and just go on and build your own life? And know that you can't heal what's been broken in them? Well, basically.
32:18 Jemma Sbeg? What is the best alternative to navigating a past situation that you feel is still holding weight for you, where you feel you want to say something about it?
32:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's, you know, what you're talking about is like how to have a, what I'm hearing in the question is how to have a repair conversation. Like, I, I think that there's, when people are saying they want to share, there's a hope.
32:44 Speaker 02 There's a hope that they'll feel seen and that there will be a feeling of accountability or of empathy for, for what you experienced. So whenever there's a repair conversation, the first question is, you know, it kind of like the, are both sides ready? And I think what's really challenging is sometimes you're ready for that conversation. And whether it's a parent or a sibling, they might not be ready for many reasons, right? It might not be, they might be going through something really stressful in their life. They might just not be in the right mindset.
33:26 Speaker 02 And so sometimes the first question is, how can I tolerate my readiness while the other person isn't yet ready? And so if that's the case, and I, I rarely think, it rarely works when, when that type of conversation is forced. You know, when it's like, I need to have it. So we're having this conversation. When there's that feeling of it's happening now, people come in defensive and, and that feeling of being seen, it's just, there, there's a lower chance. Let's put it that way. There's a lower chance of it happening.
34:00 Jemma Sbeg? Definitely.
34:01 Speaker 02 So if, if the other person, oh, did I cut you off?
34:04 Jemma Sbeg? No, no, we didn't.
34:05 Speaker 02 Okay. If the other person isn't ready, then the question is, how can I have this conversation? You know, in, in therapy or with people who are going to listen. For some clients, I've done, you know, writing letters, letters to themselves, like writing letters to their past selves, different like creative expressions. That it's not the same thing, but it helps them tolerate that difference, that like, that waiting period of this other person isn't ready yet. And, and also tolerate the fact that there's no guarantee, you know, the other person might not ever be ready. There are some. Parents who say, you know, the past is the past. I don't want to go back there. Right? Hmm.
34:50 Speaker 02 And so that's unfortunately, that that's part of relationships is that we we only have control over us naming what we're wanting and what we're needing. And we can't always control the other person wanting to engage.
35:04 Speaker 02 But if you have a sense, you know, that that they're naming things like, I want to deepen my relationship with you. Or you're feeling really distant, like I'm wanting to kind of form our adult, our adult relationship of a parent child relationship. Then, starting by just naming, you know, kind of your intention for the conversation. A lot of parents are
35:33 Speaker 02 avoid conversations like that because there's an anxiety and there's a pain around the fact that you can't change the past. So if there's an a naming of, hey, mom or hey, dad, I want to share my experience because I want to have an authentic connection with you. I want you to know what I went through and I understand that you can't change the past. I, I, I really kind of, I'm just hoping to feel seen and feel heard by the person that I had this experience with.
36:06 Speaker 02 That can kind of create a foundation for, for a deeper empathetic conversation, like maybe more success. There also are a lot of people who have these conversations in, in therapy. And more and more there, I'm seeing couples therapists who are also supporting parent child dyads. So like holding the space of a two person conversation with adult children, because a lot of adult children have stuff they want to talk about. And a lot of parents are feeling a little confused and sometimes bewildered that they, they don't understand why this energy is coming from their adult child and they want support figuring it out. So there are lots of different spaces for these types of conversations.
36:51 Speaker 02 But I would say, yeah, like naming your intention. And then knowing that like your parent might be quite surprised. They might be kind of a little caught off guard and it might be multiple iterations of this type of conversation. I will share from my personal experience that I had conversations like this with my dad when I was in my twenties. And that he was, you know, he was the breadwinner. He was working a lot. There was four, four kids in the family. Um, so some of the things that I wished he had understood was what it was like to have a parent who was
37:31 Speaker 02 contributing a ton, but not physically or very emotionally present and how there was that feeling of loss around that. And every time I tried in my twenties to express this, it came off critical. He was kind of like WTF, like I like, I gave you so much. Yeah, I tried my best, like, oh, um, and it never, it just created more disconnection. And then during the pandemic, um, being forced to be on Zoom, we started having like Zoom chats where it was finally the right time and place for us to have that conversation. And it was really, really beautiful. You know, he shared authentically and tearfully
38:14 Speaker 02 about what it was like to be on client calls while he was hearing me, me and my sister be sung happy birthday and blow out a birthday candles. And he was being pulled in and had to miss that. And I shared authentically about how it really felt like my focus was on my mom and I didn't have a focus on my dad and how that lack of connection, like I didn't feel connected to him. And that was like really weird to just be connecting in my adult life with him and, um, and we both leaned into it with a lot of honesty and authenticity and it was
38:52 Speaker 02 clumsy, but now I can really say like, we're building something new that I never thought would happen. I, it's quite, um, it's just has its own beauty and it's a new chapter. So it took us a lot of time to get to that. Um, and I guess that's what I want to normalize is that sometimes it's both, both people have to.
39:15 Speaker 02 Live more life until conversations can happen that go the way you want.
39:19 Jemma Sbeg? I really, I think that's a really beautiful reminder. You have to live more life before you can have the conversations you want to have. And I, I really appreciate that you said at the beginning, you can't have this conversation, this repair conversation unless both people are ready. And I guess also unless you know what you want to get out of it, right? Because sometimes if you go to a parent and you're like, all I want is an apology, you might not get that. And so if that's, I think going into a repair conversation, you have to want something that you'd be okay with them not being able to give you in a way. So you have to be okay with them maybe not apologizing, maybe not
40:04 Jemma Sbeg? being able to say, yeah, I totally messed up there. Because I think maybe ninety percent of the time, a parent isn't going to say, yeah, I messed up. Because that's not how like human ego works. And for, you know, being a parent is sometimes the biggest thing that anyone's done in their life. I think it's the biggest thing that most people do in their life, raising a child, raising a family. And so, you know, they don't want to acknowledge that they were maybe a failure at that thing, even though you're sitting across from them saying like, this hurt me, this was painful. All I want from you is to acknowledge it. Giving that up is means giving up a sense of accomplishment for them and a sense of um pride as well.
40:46 Jemma Sbeg? I also think that when you talk about both people need to be ready,
40:52 Jemma Sbeg? I think about emotionally immature parents for whom that's never going to happen. Like there is never going to be an acknowledgement from them. They're probably never going to be ready. I've seen it so many times with people who, you know, parents have passed away and they've never had the conversations. So I like that you've offered this alternative if there is a way to give yourself closure. There is a way to take everything that you've experienced and not need the acknowledgement of the person who's perhaps caused it. You just need to acknowledge it yourself and find and find a way to, you know, make it part of your story, but not the defining part. And so, um, how do you think that we can find closure ourselves?
41:35 Jemma Sbeg? If we maybe aren't speaking to our families, if we have emotionally immature parents, if a a parent has passed away and the the effects are still there, how can we bring about closure when it comes to complicated family dynamics for ourselves?
41:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, yeah, it's such a good question. I I'll just to um, name the with the dynamic of emotionally immature parents. I I like to think about, like, there's some parents who, as you're saying, like, just aren't interested in in that level of growth. And there's also some parents who want it, but are in their own pro, like it just catching up, like they're playing like way catch up, you know, so kind of like differentiating between parents who aren't interested in authentic vulnerable relationships where there's a safety to be honesty and the parents who really want that, but are just kind of
42:37 Speaker 02 like in in kindergarten, like they're like, they're like playing catch up and they're, you know, it's kind of if you can hold that, like, wow, they're, they're doing, they're doing the emotional growth that I started when I was in in my twenties, but they're starting in their sixties.
42:52 Jemma Sbeg? They're like seventy.
42:53 Speaker 02 You know? So I I I do believe in the human spirit, when the human spirit wants growth, that it can happen at any age. But as you said, there are some people who just aren't interested in in that shift and that that's their choice, right? So to your question, um, you know, I find that I really, really believe in the power of healing in relationship. And it doesn't always happen in, it doesn't always hap, the healing that you want to happen with maybe your parent might end up happening in other other relationships. Um, so that.
43:34 Speaker 02 That kind of broadening the view of, you know, when I'm thinking about what was the wound? What was the dynamic that happened in, between you and, and your parent? And what was the underlying wound? Maybe it was your parent, you know, telling you how you should think or how you should feel. And so, listening for that theme as it's coming up in other relationships, maybe with a manager at work, or maybe with, you know, a friend or an intimate partner. And seeing what it's like to find your voice, to name your truth, and to navigate, you know, that, that dynamic with someone,
44:17 Speaker 02 where maybe they have a little bit more space to, to, to hear you and to see you. So, you know, although, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend like seeking out, you know, although this happens, like seeking out a, like, a parallel relationship. And, you know, kind of enacting, like enacting what didn't happen with your parents and enacting it in all future romantic relationships. I think when there's a consciousness around it, like, what are your wounds? And when you see those themes show up with the right people who want to be
44:52 Speaker 02 holding that space of really understanding where you're coming from, you can have really, really healing moments where they offer a correctional experience. Sometimes that happens in therapy.
45:05 Speaker 02 Sometimes that happens in, in other relationships. But I, I would say, knowing, yeah, knowing your themes, know your wounds, like know what, what needs didn't get met. And, and listen and notice for when that's showing up. I do really believe that there's a way that, you talked about like the life cycle of an emotion. There's a, there's a life cycle of stories that like things, like themes come back up. And when they come up, we have an opportunity to give ourselves the, the space and the, the power or the compassion or the backbone or the softness that we wish we had experienced in the past. There's this beautiful phrase that I love, which is wherever you go, there you are.
45:49 Speaker 02 And so I, I think it's the same with relationships, you know, whatever happened in past relationships that didn't get to be fully resolved or fully metabolized. It's gonna show up again and and this time you might have a little more wisdom, a little more tolerance, and the person might have a little bit more space for that experience to um to unfold in a very different way. So, yeah, I'd say have faith in in what it looks like to continue to practice authentic, vulnerable relationships for yourself and with others.
46:23 Jemma Sbeg? Hmm, even if you can't do that with your family. Like you said, you can do that with friends, you can do that with mentors, you can do that with partners, boyfriends, girlfriends. One of the big things for me that I think is so healing, if you can't have those those conversations and that closure really with family, is being able to say, well, that's not going to be passed on. That's not going to be how their relationships work. No one is hopefully going to come to them at sixty and say, you know, you caused me this hurt, you caused me this pain. There is a lot of closure, I think, in healing yourself and in breaking the generational chain
47:07 Jemma Sbeg? and saying, all that work that they were maybe unable to do, I have now done it. And so it's kind of like cutting off the head of a disease, right? If perhaps, you know, whatever it was that has been passed down through your lineage, because often the way that your parents or your family has interacted with you is the way that their families interacted with them. Even if you don't have children, right, knowing that your relationships, you know, your personal relationships won't have this dynamic. The relationships you have with nieces and nephews won't have this dynamic. The relationship that you have with your partner won't reflect that that maybe your parents had in their marriage. Like, that is an incredibly healing thing.
47:48 Jemma Sbeg? So I have one more question to ask you, and it doesn't even have to do with family. It's just something we ask every single guest, which is, if you had one piece of advice, a bullet point piece of advice for someone in their twenties, what would it be?
48:03 Speaker 02 Like, take it one step at a time, you know, one one day at a time, even with what you were naming about the not wanting to repeat generational trauma, like.
48:15 Speaker 02 We we each make one change, like small changes in the in the patterns of the families that we are born into and future generations, whether those are relationships or our own biological or raised children, future generations are going to make little shifts that that we don't have to do it all, but we can be proud of of what we are doing. So, yeah.
48:40 Jemma Sbeg? Little changes. I like that. That's a beautiful piece of advice to end things with. Gwen, I want to thank you so much for coming on to talk about a pretty deep, meaningful, vulnerable conversation and a vulnerable topic. Where can the listeners find you? How can they learn more about your work?
48:58 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, my website is www.gwendolynwatson.com. And I'm on LinkedIn posting about mental health, parenting, emotions, all the stuff that we think doesn't get discussed in corporate environments. I'm doing it on LinkedIn. So feel free to connect with me there and yeah, continue the conversation.
49:23 Jemma Sbeg? Yeah, everything will be linked in the episode description as always. And I just want to thank you guys for listening to this episode. If this is something that you're really dealing with this holiday period, oh, my goodness, you are not alone. You are not alone. And there are so many amazing resources out there as well that I'll also leave in the episode description. Make sure that you are following along and that you give the show a five star review wherever you are listening. You can also continue the conversation if you have thoughts, feelings about this episode, you can DM me on Instagram at that psychology podcast. And we're always taking further episode suggestions. But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself, and we will talk very, very soon.
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