298. The Case That Proved Words Can Kill - The Conrad Roy Story

Garrett and Payton dive into the heartbreaking case of Conrad Roy, a young man struggling with depression, manipulation, and the devastating power of words. If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out: Dial 988 for the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline Text “STRENGTH” to 741741 988lifeline.org Links: Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Sources: People.com - https://people.com/crime/michelle-carter-trial-gallery-key-moments-conrad-roy-suicide/ HoustonLawReview.com - https://houstonlawreview.org/article/90805-blurred-lines-how-the-court-in-_commonwealth-v-carter_-blurred-the-line-between-freedom-of-speech-and-criminal-liability Elle.com - https://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a27704746/who-is-michelle-carter/ Wikipedia.org - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Conrad_Roy NYTimes.com - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/us/suicide-texting-trial-michelle-carter-conrad-roy.html ABCNews.go.com - https://abcnews.go.com/2020/michelle-carters-texting-suicide-trial-revisited/story?id=83835354 BBC.com - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40817255 MamaMia.com - https://www.mamamia.com.au/michelle-carter/ AETV.com - https://www.aetv.com/articles/michelle-carter-conrad-roy ABC7.com - https://abc7.com/post/michelle-carter-trial-conrad-roy-text-message-suicide-case-2020-investigation/11725325/ Cosmopolitan.com - https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/reports/a37499262/where-is-michelle-carter-now-texting-suicide/ CBSNews.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/death-by-text-the-case-against-michelle-carter/ CNN.com - https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/us/michelle-carter-text-suicide-release SupremeCourt.gov - https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/19/19-62/107409/20190708155645613_Michelle%20Carter%20Appendix%20July%208%202019%20EFile.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Payton Moreland?

  You're listening to an Ono Media Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. This is Murder with my husband. I'm Payton Moreland.

• 0:07Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm Garrett Moreland.

• 0:08Payton Moreland?

  And he's the husband.

• 0:09Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm the husband. Welcome back. Thank you for being here. Another Monday, another episode. Hope everyone has some fun plans for the holidays. Peyton and I will be not doing much. We'll be recording, sticking around, hanging out, talking to you guys, hanging out with Daisy. I think we might see some family, but other than that, we're just chilling. So hopefully you guys have something fun planned, hanging out with family, hanging, hanging out alone, hanging out with us, whatever it is. Yeah.

• 0:38Payton Moreland?

  Santa's coming to me.

• 0:40Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, Santa's. I heard Santa's gonna give me a billion dollars.

• 0:43Payton Moreland?

  FYI, that was a joke. We did not win the lottery and Garrett is not getting a billion dollars.

• 0:47Garrett Moreland?

  Apparently, I have to clarify. Listen, guys, this can be my 10 seconds because I don't want it to be too long. But last time when I said I won the lottery, I-

• 0:57Payton Moreland?

  I still get messages.

• 0:58Garrett Moreland?

  I, I thought it was obvious that I was being sarcastic, but I'm not lying when I probably got, I got, okay, I got thousands of messages, thousands of people asking for their 10 or 20 grand or whatever.

• 1:15Payton Moreland?

  I mean, how can you blame them? You're the one who said, if you want 10 grand, let me know.

• 1:20Garrett Moreland?

  But I feel like it was very obvious that I was kidding. I feel like it's very obvious.

• 1:25Payton Moreland?

  It was not because so many people believed you.

• 1:26Garrett Moreland?

  I'm gonna have to grab that, that clip and post it somewhere because, listen, you guys have been listening to this podcast for a while now. I feel like you guys know when I'm being sarcastic. Anyways, I'm not getting a billion dollars. I don't have a billion dollars, not even close, not even, nothing. I wish I did, but I don't. So yeah, I guess that's my 10 seconds. We've just been working. We might have a cool announcement here in a couple of weeks, so stay tuned. We can't say much about it yet, but we might be able to next episode. Oh, people we ran into are people that came up to us and said hi.

• 2:05Payton Moreland?

  I think her name was Kelsey.

• 2:07Garrett Moreland?

  Okay. I thought there was more, but we've been running around that I can't remember.

• 2:12Payton Moreland?

  Oh, I don't know.

• 2:13Garrett Moreland?

  Maybe not, but Kels-

• 2:14Payton Moreland?

  I think it was Kelsey.

• 2:16Garrett Moreland?

  Yes, we were, we were eating.

• 2:18Payton Moreland?

  And she came up and said hi.

• 2:19Garrett Moreland?

  Yes. Anyways, um, come say hi to us if you see us. We love it. Some people message us and like, I saw you, but I don't want to bother you. You're not bothering us. Nothing's bothering us. Even if I'm eating food, you can come say hi.

• 2:33Payton Moreland?

  We live the fangirl life. Okay?

• 2:36Garrett Moreland?

  We're just, we're just people.

• 2:38Payton Moreland?

  I love to fangirl.

• 2:39Garrett Moreland?

  We're all just people hanging out, trying to survive, trying to live, trying to do our best. So on that note, let's get into today's case.

• 2:48Payton Moreland?

  Our sources for this episode are people.com, HoustonLawReview.com, L.com, NewYorkTimes.com, ABCNews.GO.com, BBC.com, mamamia.com, AETV.com, ABC7.com, Cosmopolitan.com, CBSNews.com, CNN.com, and SupremeCourt.gov. If you've seen the title of this episode, you might know this story. I think it definitely has some infamy, but I know for sure that Garrett doesn't know this story. And I'm honestly intrigued to see how he's going to respond.

• 3:25Garrett Moreland?

  Let's hear it. Just a reminder for those listening for the first time, I never know. I don't know what case Peyton is about to tell me. I don't know anything about these cases. Every once in a while I will know a thing or two, but for the most part, I don't know anything. So just an FYI, just a reminder, we can keep going.

• 3:46Payton Moreland?

  All of his reactions are raw and unscripted.

• 3:50Garrett Moreland?

  This is true. I'm not scripted at all, which is kind of scary.

• 3:54Payton Moreland?

  Now, before we get into it, this episode includes discussion of suicide and suicidal ideation. So if you are someone you know is struggling, please contact the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by dialing 988 or text STRENGTH to the Crisis Text Line at 741741. You can also go to 988lifeline.org and as always, please listen with care. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I can't tell you how many times that was repeated on the playground as a child.

• 4:37Payton Moreland?

  And unfortunately, the older I get, the more I start to wonder why adults were telling us this because words are powerful and they do cut deep, especially in the age of social media, where people can live behind the anonymity of a screen and say whatever they want to complete and total strangers. I have personally had this happen to me. I've had people that have never met me say things. I can only imagine how much worse it feels when you are hearing terrible things over and over again from someone that you care about. Because sticks and stones can be

• 5:20Payton Moreland?

  considered weapons, and this case will prove, words can be too. And when used in a certain way, you start to blur the line are, can words even be considered a weapon for murder? Now today, I want to introduce you to a 18-year-old young man named Conrad Roy. Now Conrad grew up in Fairhaven, Massachusetts, about an hour and a half outside of Boston. It was in the late 90s and early 2000s. He was the oldest kid in the family with two younger sisters named Morgan and Camden. And according to Conrad's parents, he was a happy, sensitive,

• 6:05Payton Moreland?

  and kind little boy. But right as Conrad was reaching puberty, a big life event kind of turned his world upside down. His parents filed for divorce. Now Conrad tried his best to manage this as a early teenager, tried to stay on course academically and athletically. He did maintain a 3.8 GPA. He took honors classes. He did everything from track to baseball. But being on the water actually seemed to be Conrad's favorite. It was his real escape from his life. And he began studying navigation in his free time, taking three months of night classes, and actually eventually got his captain's license.

• 6:52Payton Moreland?

  He also worked part-time with his father's family business at a marine salvage company, rescuing disabled and wrecked boats on the water. And on top of that, Conrad had been accepted to Flitchburg State University in Massachusetts. This was about 100 miles away from home and he got a full scholarship. So, life really was kind of going on for him. After high school, his plan was to study business. But, life wasn't all smooth sailing for Conrad Roy. Conrad had been struggling with depression and social anxiety through a lot of his teenage years. He had trouble sleeping and focusing.

• 7:36Payton Moreland?

  And while his family sought treatment for him, it really never seemed to do the trick. There was one thing, though, that Conrad appeared really excited about during his teenage years. And that was a young woman named Michelle Carter.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:54Payton Moreland?

  Now, in 2012, 16-year-old Michelle and 17-year-old Conrad met while both of them were vacationing in Naples, Florida. Now Conrad was there visiting relatives and Michelle was down there vacationing with her family. And as you know, a vacation love, like they meet there and then they're gonna leave. But while they're there, they can't help but fall for each other. And apparently Conrad's sisters had actually met Michelle before, since she only lived an hour away from them in the town of Plainfield, Massachusetts. And people who knew Michelle for a while, like her softball coach, said that Michelle was always kind and supportive.

• 8:37Payton Moreland?

  She was the ideal teammate, someone who always had nice things to say, never really got upset. She seemed to be well-liked at school. She was voted class clown and most likely to brighten your day. So, on paper, she kind of seemed to be exactly what Conrad needed in his life at this time. So, was it fate that they had met by chance on this vacation? So after that trip, Michelle and Conrad keep in touch. They would text and call each other all of the time. Again, this is 2012, like texting is at its peak. And that's when Conrad learned Michelle had actually quietly been dealing with her own struggles.

• 9:20Payton Moreland?

  Michelle herself said she had battled an eating disorder over the years. And despite being more extroverted, she spent a lot of time alone retreating socially. When she did socialize, people said she was very eager to please and worked hard to seek the approval of other kids. But she was struggling with her mental health in other ways. Taking antidepressants and spending time in a psychiatric facility to treat her eating disorder. So in many ways, Conrad and Michelle could relate to each other. It's kind of like they were fighting similar battles around the same age and the same time in life. And they found solace in that.

• 10:01Payton Moreland?

  But things only got harder for Conrad as time goes on after meeting Michelle.

• 10:07Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know where this is going yet.

• 10:08Payton Moreland?

  So while Michelle offered a supportive and empathetic ear, Conrad's mental health just really didn't seem to be improving. Later in 2012, 17-year-old Conrad attempted an overdose right after leaving a treatment center for depression. Now during the attempt, he had actually called a friend for help. And thankfully, she called his mother, who then got to him in time. But those close to Conrad said they saw this as a cry for help rather than Conrad actually really wanting to die. They felt that things could only improve from here. And at some point, things were starting to look up.

• 10:53Payton Moreland?

  Conrad was going out to parties. He was hanging out with more friends. He did seem to be in better spirits after that attempt. And he was still in touch with Michelle. While they had only met in person about five times, the two of them spoke by phone and text constantly. And by the summer of 2014, Michelle was kind of looking to label their relationship by asking, are we basically dating? Like, I want to be able to say that I'm your girlfriend. And Conrad replied, yes, you are my girlfriend.

• 11:29Payton Moreland?

  And while it's good to have someone who knows what you're going through, in this case, it kept them from healing in the ways that they needed. And eventually Conrad's mental health went back on the decline. That summer Conrad's social anxiety had gotten so crippling that he decided he didn't want to leave home and go to college. So instead, he put off his studies at Flitchburg State University entirely. And unfortunately, things were never going to get back on track. In June of 2014, Conrad was recording his inner monologue on video. He was speaking about coping with his depression, about not feeling comfortable in his own skin, how he needed to relax.

• 12:15Payton Moreland?

  In one clip, he said, quote, "The sooner I like myself, the better I'll be." And it appeared that Conrad was making efforts towards that. On July 12th, Conrad, his mother Lynn, and his two sisters went to Horse and Neck Beach in Westport, Massachusetts to just hang out. Lynn, his mom, and Conrad walked along the beach that day and ended up having an intimate conversation about his future, what he was going to do about college, a job, all of it. And Lynn reassured him, "Hey, don't worry. Everything's going to be okay. Everything is going to work out."

• 12:53Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, I'm just trying to

• 12:57Garrett Moreland?

  trying to figure out what this is going, but you're giving me nothing so far. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. There are plenty of reasons we put off getting support, and for a lot of people, cost is one of them. With BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And while we're reconsidering old assumptions, maybe there are a few others worth questioning, too.

• 13:24Payton Moreland?

  Women inherit a lot of unwritten rules. Be ambitious, but not intimidating. Be there for everyone, but still make time for yourself. Have it all together, but don't look like you're trying too hard. And I have definitely fallen into all of these traps. But if you have been wanting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. If you don't have insurance or don't live in the United States, you can still get 10% off your first month.

• 13:55Garrett Moreland?

  And Peyton and I are big advocates for therapy. Give it a try. Life can be crazy. There's a lot going on. Like we were talking about, sometimes it feels like you need to have everything figured out. You don't. Go talk to someone. Go see what's going on. Visit betterhelp.com/husband to explore your payment options. That's better help, H E L P dot com slash husband.

• 14:17Payton Moreland?

  This message is sponsored by Greenlight. You know, there were many times growing up in school where I was like, when am I ever going to use this? And let me be real honest with you, a lot of those things have turned out to be true. But you know what I wish they would have taught in school? Financial literacy. So Greenlight takes the mental load of family life and kind of puts it all into one place. It keeps your whole family in sync, money, safety and everyday life, all in one place. When you're using it, you can see what your kids are spending, right? When they spend it, you can also easily send them money via Greenlight instead of like digging around for cash.

• 15:01Payton Moreland?

  And Greenlight just helps your household run smoother. Chores happen without nagging because you can do it all through the Greenlight app. There's also like a schedule that is up to date in real time. So when you're out of milk or someone needs new cleats, it just goes on this shared list that everyone can add to. Join the 6.5 million family members who trust Greenlight. Garrett has younger siblings. They've used Greenlight and it is so amazing to watch them learn about money in the safety of their home. You've got enough on your plate. Greenlight keeps it all in sync. Get started at greenlight.com/husband. That is greenlight.com/husband. Greenlight.com/husband. Go check it out now.

• 15:46Payton Moreland?

  Now that same afternoon at the beach, Conrad's sisters saw him kind of sitting alone quietly focused on his phone. He was definitely texting someone that day at the beach and he looked upset. But afterwards they went to get some ice cream and then Conrad seemed to be in better spirits. Either way, the family packed up and went home. And around 6:00 PM Conrad says he's gonna meet up with a friend. And Lynn asked, are you going to be back in time for dinner? And he said, mm, probably not. Then Conrad hopped in his truck and drove away from home. Now around 10:30 or 11:00 PM that night, Lynn texts Conrad and says, hey, are you gonna make

• 16:31Payton Moreland?

  it home? But there's no response. And at some point that evening, Conrad's sister Camden also receives a text. And this one is from Michelle Carter, this girl who he's known for a really long time, who he's kind of saying is his girlfriend. And Michelle is texting Conrad's sister and saying, hey, have you heard from Conrad? So with still no word from Conrad and Michelle saying she's not getting any text from him either, by the middle of the night, Lynn is worried. So she's texting him again and again, and still not getting nothing.

• 17:10Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, that's not good. Yeah.

• 17:11Payton Moreland?

  Right. So when Conrad isn't home by the following morning, Lynn goes by Conrad's best friend Ariana's house. And when she learns that he's not there either, that's when the panic sets in. In one last ditch effort, the family drops by their dad's house, and there's no sign of Conrad there either. Lynn says it is in this moment that she feels this rush of energy pass through her body. She could just sense at this point that something bad had happened.

• 17:44Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, especially considering where he's at mentally.

• 17:48Payton Moreland?

  Right. And word basically spreads that no one can find Conrad. Now later that day, police do find Conrad's pickup truck. It is parked in a parking lot outside of a Kmart. So police go up to the truck trying to find if this is any clues as to where he's at. But they actually discover that inside in the driver's seat is Conrad Roy. He's in his now found truck. And he is no longer breathing.

• 18:23Payton Moreland?

  His cellphone is on the seat right next to him in the truck. And his cause of death is later listed as carbon monoxide poisoning.

• 18:32Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, okay.

• 18:33Payton Moreland?

  Now Conrad did leave a note behind, which the family weren't at like that all surprised to find. And in it, he apologized to his family and asked them to quote, "Live life to the fullest." Now, later that day, at around 8:13 PM, Lynn receives a text from Michelle, her son's girlfriend, saying, "I'm so very sorry. Conrad meant so much to me."

• 19:00Garrett Moreland?

  I just figured out. I just figured out what's going on. I'm not gonna say it because some of the listeners might not know, but I think I just figured out what's going on.

• 19:10Payton Moreland?

  I wanna know. It's okay.

• 19:13Garrett Moreland?

  Um, I think it's along the lines, I'll just say this, so it doesn't spoil it too much. If I have figured out what's happening, it's, it's gonna come back to Michelle.

• 19:23Payton Moreland?

  Okay.

• 19:24Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 19:25Payton Moreland?

  Now, I'm sure Lynn was flooded with text messages like this one over the next few days and weeks. So Michelle's texts likely didn't stand out at all. What seemed strange to a lot of people, though, was how Michelle showed up and acted at the funeral. Now, keep in mind, most people that knew Conrad didn't really know Michelle. Remember, they were long distance. He had met her on vacation.

• 19:54Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 19:55Payton Moreland?

  Um, they'd never really met up in person. So he was kind of just this, this girl that-

• 20:01Garrett Moreland?

  It was just a long distance relationship.

• 20:02Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, was in his life, but he also hung out with a lot of other girls. Like, he had other friends at his school. And I wanna clarify again here, at the point that he passes away, they have only met in person five times. So despite their conversation about being boyfriend and girlfriend recently, it seems like Conrad didn't really share that information with anyone in his life before his death. So despite the fact that he told her, yeah, you're my girlfriend. It's not like he told other people that Michelle was his girlfriend. Even his sisters and mother were really confused to learn that Michelle considered Conrad her boyfriend.

• 20:46Payton Moreland?

  Like when everything happens and Michelle becomes part of this grieving process, they are a little shocked at just how involved she is. And yet Conrad's best friend Ariana said that during the funeral, Michelle kind of rubbed everyone the wrong way because she looked like, quote, "a grieving widow." She was sobbing loudly at his funeral. She was making a scene. Keep in mind, this is a girl that almost everyone in this room has not met or really knew about. And of course, everyone grieves differently.

• 21:22Garrett Moreland?

  I was gonna say being devil's advocate.

• 21:24Payton Moreland?

  Right. She has been texting him for years. Even if they didn't see each other in person all that much, like they did have a close relationship.

• 21:31Garrett Moreland?

  So could she, could this be real? For sure.

• 21:35Payton Moreland?

  So of course, like we just said, everyone grieves differently. But to some people at the funeral, this rubbed them the wrong way because it almost seemed like a performance or fake.

• 21:46Garrett Moreland?

  I feel like, one, this happens in almost every case that's where a husband or a wife kill a significant other. Everyone's always like, they were acting so weird at X and X.

• 22:01Garrett Moreland?

  I feel like I've heard so many of these that someone's acting weird, that if you for some reason ever die, I'm not gonna know how to act.

• 22:10Payton Moreland?

  Right.

• 22:11Garrett Moreland?

  Because all I'm gonna be thinking about now is...

• 22:13Payton Moreland?

  Everyone's looking at how I'm acting.

• 22:14Garrett Moreland?

  Everyone's looking at how I'm acting.

• 22:15Payton Moreland?

  Right.

• 22:16Garrett Moreland?

  Because we do this so much.

• 22:16Payton Moreland?

  And I think this is even weirder for everyone at Conrad's funeral because they don't even really know who this girl is.

• 22:24Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 22:24Payton Moreland?

  And so I think add on that level, people are really judging. And this behavior doesn't really end here. Okay, on the day after what would have been Conrad's 19th birthday, Michelle held a fundraiser in her town to honor his memory. She posted on Twitter, quote, "Such a beautiful soul gone too soon. I'll always remember your bright light and smile. You'll forever be in my heart. I love you, Conrad." And her fellow peers in her town were offering her endless sympathy and support.

• 23:02Payton Moreland?

  But the police had been investigating Conrad's death as they almost always do with a suicide case, especially a teen suicide case. And one of the first places they obviously checked was Conrad Roy's cellphone and the communications that he had had before he died. Oftentimes, parents ask police to look into this because they are trying to pinpoint a trigger or just find answers. They're grieving, they're confused, they want answers. But here's the thing, police come across something interesting when they look at Conrad's cellphone history.

• 23:40Payton Moreland?

  Not only had Michelle and Conrad spoke the night he died by suicide, she had sent him more than 80 text messages after his death. So she continues this communication.

• 23:56Garrett Moreland?

  I know where the exactly this is going and I'm, this pisses me off.

• 24:00Payton Moreland?

  So some of them were apologies for not doing more to help him. Others were just confessions of love. But it was actually the messages that were sent before Conrad died that really set off alarm bells for investigators in this case and made them realize this is not a open and shut suicide investigation.

• 24:22Payton Moreland?

  So let me back up a little bit. We're going to back up to shortly after Conrad and Michelle first met in 2012 and take a closer look on this relationship that developed before his death. Now, as I mentioned, the two were long distance, so texting was their primary form of communication. And both of them were battling with mental health issues at the time. Now, at first, Michelle really seemed to be encouraging Conrad to seek treatment. And when Conrad spoke about suicide in October of 2012, Michelle seemingly tried to talk him out of it in their communication. She sent him messages like, "You have so much to live

• 25:04Payton Moreland?

  for." And Michelle kept suggesting ways for Conrad to get help. Apparently, when she was about to go to a treatment center for her eating disorder, she told Conrad, "Hey, you should come with me. That way, they could support each other if they were in the same place. It wouldn't be as scary." But Conrad supposedly rejected this offer. In one message, Michelle said to Conrad, quote, "I'm trying my best to dig you out," to which Conrad What? To which Conrad replied, "I don't want to be dug out. I want to die." So she's trying to dig him out of this hole, this dark hole he's in. Now, from there, Conrad continued sending Michelle different ways he could potentially die by suicide. So from this

• 25:49Payton Moreland?

  point, it's safe to say that Michelle and Conrad's relationship is very open. Like, they are confiding in each other, and Conrad is being very open with the darkness he is battling. From this point, Conrad continued sending Michelle different ways that he could potentially die by suicide. And over time, according to these messages, it seems like the energy starts to shift with Michelle. Instead of trying to talk him out of this, help him out, dig him out of this hole, she slowly starts to encourage him. And by the

• 26:33Payton Moreland?

  summer of 2014, it started with things like, quote, "If this is the only way that you think you're going to be happy, heaven will welcome you with open arms." But in the weeks leading up to Conrad's death, the two had exchanged more than a thousand texts. And it's no longer like, if you want to do this, it'll be okay. It's more like encouraging Conrad to go through with suicide.

• 27:01Garrett Moreland?

  Do you have an example?

• 27:03Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 27:03Garrett Moreland?

  Like, okay, okay.

• 27:04Payton Moreland?

  She's saying things like, there's a point that comes where there isn't anything anyone can do to save you, not even yourself, and you've hit that point. And then another one where she's angry with him, she's fighting with him over the fact that he hasn't done it yet. She sends him-

• 27:21Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh.

• 27:22Payton Moreland?

  In all caps, "You keep pushing it off. You just said you were gonna do it tonight, and now you're saying eventually."

• 27:30Garrett Moreland?

  There's no way.

• 27:30Payton Moreland?

  Yes. This next exchange is a little long-

• 27:34Garrett Moreland?

  Holy sh-

• 27:35Payton Moreland?

  But the text messages between these two is a major, major part of this case. And so I want to include a lot of them for context.

• 27:44Garrett Moreland?

  That's insane. So like I, the first one you had read, like the heaven will welcome you with open arms. Little weird? Yeah, yeah, weird. Would I have like convicted someone off of that? No.

• 27:55Payton Moreland?

  Right.

• 27:55Garrett Moreland?

  But now this is getting insane.

• 27:57Payton Moreland?

  Right. So one of the, um, exchanges, here we go. Michelle says, quote, "I think that your parents know you're in a really bad place, and I'm not saying they want you to do it, but I honestly feel like they can accept it. They know there is nothing they can do for you. They've tried helping, I mean, everyone's tried. But there is a point that comes where there isn't anything anyone can do to save you, not even yourself, and you've hit that point. And I think your parents know you've hit that point. You said, you said your mom saw a suicide thing on your computer and she didn't even say anything. I think she knows it's on your mind and she's preparing for it. Everyone will be sad for a while, but they'll get over it and move on.

• 28:42Garrett Moreland?

  That's-

• 28:43Payton Moreland?

  They won't be in depression. I won't let that happen. They know how sad you are and they know that you are doing this to be happy. And I think they will understand that and accept it. They will always carry you in their hearts."

• 28:55Garrett Moreland?

  That is- Utterly heartbreaking for Conrad.

• 28:59Payton Moreland?

  And I want to say.

• 29:01Garrett Moreland?

  Horrible, horrible, horrible.

• 29:02Payton Moreland?

  Mind as we are reading these, she is adding on to someone who was without Michelle in the picture, already struggling, battling demons.

• 29:13Garrett Moreland?

  He was already thinking, this was already on his mind?

• 29:16Payton Moreland?

  Yes.

• 29:17Garrett Moreland?

  This is wild.

• 29:18Payton Moreland?

  And I want to, his response to that huge, long message is so telling about how, just how often and like how normal this type of conversation had become between them because he respond, he responds, ah, thank you, Michelle.

• 29:36Payton Moreland?

  Like, oh, that's nice of you for easing my mind that no one will really care if I do this.

• 29:41Garrett Moreland?

  This makes me so sad.

• 29:43Payton Moreland?

  And when police dig further into the messages, they discover that Michelle eventually even helped him plan his suicide. They spoke in depth about methods. They eventually landed on carbon monoxide poisoning. Michelle even helped him with step-by-step instructions in the days before he died. And she helped him locate a generator.

• 30:09Garrett Moreland?

  This is mind blowing, absolutely mind blowing. I mean, I knew it was coming to this. Like I knew this is where it was going. I just didn't realize it was this awful.

• 30:20Payton Moreland?

  Obvious and horrible.

• 30:21Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, obvious. I thought maybe it would be a little more cryptic or, no, she straight up is saying, yeah, you should go do it.

• 30:30Payton Moreland?

  And again.

• 30:31Garrett Moreland?

  Need to do it.

• 30:32Payton Moreland?

  Strangers tell people to do this and they do it because it's that hurtful. Words have that much impact. Now imagine someone that you have been texting that knows all of your secrets, that is your best friend, your confidant, telling you to do this and helping you plan it and urging you and getting mad at you that you're not doing it when you said you would.

• 30:54Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know, that's a horrible person.

• 30:56Payton Moreland?

  So.

• 30:57Garrett Moreland?

  Horrible.

• 30:58Payton Moreland?

  Uh, she helps him locate the generator and a text from her to him said, quote, yeah, it will work if you admit 3,200 ppm of it for five or 10 minutes. You will die within a half hour. You will lose consciousness with no pain. You just fall asleep and die.

• 31:17Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 31:18Payton Moreland?

  She's being his Google.

• 31:19Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 31:19Payton Moreland?

  Basically.

• 31:20Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Payton Moreland?

  They even spoke about a timeline in the hours before Conrad died. Around 3:45 on July 12th, Michelle told Conrad he had to do it when he got home from the beach that day. Remember, his sister saw him looking a little sad on the beach texting someone pretty intently. She texts him during this time, quote, "No more thinking. You need to just do it." Some of their final text messages to one another were before Conrad even left his house that night. Michelle told him to tell his mom that he was just gonna run out to the store. And he told her when he was leaving the house and when he was almost at the Kmart parking lot.

• 32:06Payton Moreland?

  This isn't the last time they speak. When Conrad gets to the parking lot where this is going to happen, he calls Michelle around 7:12 PM. The two are on the phone together as he starts to follow her plan and fill the car with lethal fumes. And you guys, like, this is heartbreaking.

• 32:29Garrett Moreland?

  It's horrible. Also, just a reminder again, I know Peyton mentioned it at the beginning, but for those who are struggling in any way, it's a reminder that it's a trigger warning and you don't need to finish this.

• 32:40Payton Moreland?

  There's no reason to keep listening to the case.

• 32:42Garrett Moreland?

  Just a reminder, because this one can be triggering for those who are struggling with depression.

• 32:49Payton Moreland?

  Obviously, we know that this case is going to turn into a trial, or else I wouldn't be covering it.

• 32:53Garrett Moreland?

  Correct.

• 32:54Payton Moreland?

  Which is why it's in the true crime category and it brought up the question of how far is too far? Can you hold someone responsible?

• 33:01Garrett Moreland?

  No, this is, this is-

• 33:02Payton Moreland?

  Which is why we're covering it, but yes, this is really intense stuff. This is heartbreaking. She's on the phone with him. He is actively dying. But at one point during this conversation, Conrad gets out of the car. So he's in the car.

• 33:20Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh, dude.

• 33:22Payton Moreland?

  And he has decided that he's changed his mind. He gets out of the car.

• 33:27Garrett Moreland?

  No way.

• 33:28Payton Moreland?

  He's like telling her this is a mistake. I don't want to do this. And Michelle says, "Get back in the car." This is a detail that was only discovered a long time later when Michelle actually texted other people saying, "Yeah, I was on the phone with him. He got out, but I told him to get back in because this is what he wanted." She explained to a friend that she heard him die.

• 33:54Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh. Life in like, life in prison. No and ifs or buts.

• 33:58Payton Moreland?

  She told another friend she could have stopped it because she was quote, "on the phone with him and he got out of the car because it was working and he got scared and I effing told him to just get back in." Is what she brags to another friend.

• 34:13Garrett Moreland?

  So confused, why?

• 34:15Payton Moreland?

  So, again, this is all the aftermath. No one knows any of this. Everyone knows he was struggling and if police hadn't looked into this, if they hadn't investigated, this probably would have gone unknown. So, Michelle's behavior gets even more disturbing from what police learn after he dies in the car. Their call together ended at 7:58 PM, but instead of hanging up dialing 911, she texted a friend at 8:02 PM. She hangs up with him at 7:58. At 8:02 PM, she texts one of her friends and says Conrad died by suicide.

• 34:58Payton Moreland?

  And after that, she doesn't call Conrad's mom or sisters. She plays dumb. She texts Conrad's sister saying, "Hey, have you heard from him? I haven't heard from him." She calls Conrad's phone dozens of times, like, "Oh, I'm trying to figure out where he is. He's not responding to me." This is, to me, an obvious admission of guilt because she's immediately trying to cover up what had happened.

• 35:22Garrett Moreland?

  She knows. She 100% knows.

• 35:24Payton Moreland?

  Again, the following day, she's texting his family, being like, "Have you heard from him? Have you found him?" She also sends Conrad a bunch of desperate sounding texts the next day to make it seem like she's clueless, like either she'd had him delete their history of texts, not thinking police could pull it up. And so the only ones on his phone would be these ones.

• 35:47Garrett Moreland?

  That's exactly what happened. She probably didn't realize that.

• 35:50Payton Moreland?

  They could get the deleted.

• 35:52Garrett Moreland?

  They can look at history. She probably had no idea.

• 35:54Payton Moreland?

  So she texts him the next day, like, saying things like, quote, "Did you do something? Conrad, I love you so much. Please tell me this is a joke." Meanwhile, she knows exactly where Conrad is and she knows this is not a joke. She's the one that told him to get back into the car. Then in February of 2015, after police have learned all of this, the courts made a pretty unprecedented move that turned this case into a true crime case. They indicted and had Michelle arrested on charges of involuntary manslaughter.

• 36:33Garrett Moreland?

  Now, which is interesting because I feel like, and I know we're gonna get to it. It's almost more under first degree murder because she helped him plan it.

• 36:44Payton Moreland?

  I think.

• 36:46Garrett Moreland?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 36:46Payton Moreland?

  Yes.

• 36:47Garrett Moreland?

  Right between, yeah.

• 36:49Payton Moreland?

  It seems more responsible, but I think what they're thinking is it's very similar to driving under the influence and taking someone's life. Like you made a reckless, wrong choice, but you didn't have, like you didn't pull the trigger.

• 37:05Garrett Moreland?

  Hard because she was like, yeah, if you do cover, like she was planning a murder. I mean, she was planning someone's death.

• 37:12Payton Moreland?

  Thinking like a hitman case?

• 37:14Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 37:14Payton Moreland?

  Even the person who hired them serves hefty.

• 37:19Garrett Moreland?

  Yes.

• 37:19Payton Moreland?

  Hefty charges.

• 37:20Garrett Moreland?

  Correct. Yeah. They usually don't get involuntary manslaughter.

• 37:23Payton Moreland?

  Right.

• 37:24Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 37:24Payton Moreland?

  So again, though, this is the first of its kind. Like when this hit the news, people were like, can you even do that?

• 37:32Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah. Is that possible?

• 37:32Payton Moreland?

  Like, is this even a thing? Like, is someone else responsible for someone else's suicide? Like, is that, can you charge that? This is a case unlike any other. There's no fingerprints. There's no DNA. The accused person was not even at the crime. The only evidence and murder weapon was the words that she had used against Conrad Roy. Like that was it. It was her words. Which means the path to prosecuting Michelle Carter was going to be an uncharted one and was going to draw a lot of public opinion. Primarily because the state of Massachusetts, where this crime took place, had no laws against

• 38:17Payton Moreland?

  encouraged or assisted suicide. Like, they weren't written. There was nothing in the rulebook.

• 38:22Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, I was gonna ask about assisted suicide, so, okay, that's good to know. Interesting.

• 38:26Payton Moreland?

  But even though there's no paperwork for this, the Supreme Court of Massachusetts obviously learns about the case and feels like they have a case worth pursuing. I used to think a camera or video doorbell was home security, and then I realized those can only record a break-in. They literally can't stop one. And that is the difference with SimpliSafe. When an intruder steps onto your property, SimpliSafe's AI-powered cameras detect the threat and alert a live US-based agent who can then intervene to stop them before they even get into your door. Because it's not my house or valuables that I'm even worried about. It's a stranger getting anywhere close to the people I love.

• 39:09Payton Moreland?

  And I'm obviously taking this way more seriously now, which I already did, but now more than ever with a baby on the way. Like I said, unlike traditional security cameras that only alert you after a break-in, SimpliSafe is built to stop it before it starts. And they have so many different options. If you haven't got on and checked it out, just do it, guys. If you've been waiting for a sign to get some security, this is it. Join the more than 6 million people who entrust SimpliSafe with their home security. Right now, save 60% off with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/husband. That is an amazing code, guys. 60% off. That is simplisafe.com/husband.

• 39:52Payton Moreland?

  And when you order, again, just please let them know Murder With My Husband sent you. Write it in at the checkout survey. It just lets them know we sent you and it helps support the show. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime and in real time.

• 40:06Garrett Moreland?

  All right, guys, we're jumping into an ad and it is the one and only Skims.

• 40:11Payton Moreland?

  We love Skims and I'm so excited. I get to talk to you about their loungewear and pajamas. If you follow me on Instagram, I just posted, but I did get one of their sleep sets. That's like a deep burgundy color, so cute, so rich, so soft. And then I also got a fleece set that's like this chocolate brown, so freaking cute. I love a good matching set and I love Skims. Again, the sleeps that I got is the soft lounge sleep set. I always get asked like what exactly it is.

• 40:52Payton Moreland?

  So yes, the soft lounge sleep set, it has the perfect weight, the perfect stretch. The fabric will not irritate your skin. Honestly, I recommend Skims to everyone due to just the quality and the comfort that it brings. So go check out their cotton fleece sets or their sleep sets right now.

• 41:12Garrett Moreland?

  Shop Peyton's favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the drop down menu that follows.

• 41:25Payton Moreland?

  So in the summer of 2016, they stood by the charges and said that Michelle had a quote, "virtual presence" that night in the pickup truck, which is how they can charge her. Meaning her case for involuntary manslaughter was going to move forward. And Michelle's attorneys were worried about how they would come off to a jury full of people. So instead they opted for a bench trial, which means only a judge would be hearing the case and then deciding her fate.

• 41:59Garrett Moreland?

  Which is interesting because I do agree with her attorneys. I think if, I don't know, I mean, what the, what she got yet. But if that did go to a trial, I am pretty certain that every single juror would be like, no. Like you're a horrible person.

• 42:18Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, and I think it's like easier to think level headed as we're just like sitting here dissecting this case. But I mean, I've heard of plenty of stories where people have been bullied or, you know.

• 42:32Payton Moreland?

  There's been horrible behavior against them and then they take their life and I'm angry for them. Yeah. I'm angry. Like, there's a part of me that wants justice. Like, you, you had a hand in this almost, even though they didn't, if that makes sense. And so I think, like Garrett's saying, if you left it up to a jury, there is a high probability that they would also feel this way in this case. So Michelle's trial began on June 5th, 2017, and the prosecution painted the then 20-year-old Michelle as someone who was desperate for sympathy and attention. And this becomes a big,

• 43:14Payton Moreland?

  like, a main focus point at the trial is that Michelle did this for attention. Like, it was almost like Munchausen's. She was like, if he dies, I benefit. People are gonna feel bad for me. I'm gonna, like, people are gonna, like, I'm gonna be able to be the star of this, in a way. They claim she was motivated to push her boyfriend to suicide because she wanted to look like the grieving girlfriend who, try as she might, just couldn't stop her boyfriend from dying by suicide, and everyone should feel bad for her. So, again, the theory from the prosecution was like a case of Munchausen's by proxy, that in order for Michelle to gain sympathy and attention, she created a situation worthy of sympathy and attention.

• 43:58Payton Moreland?

  And they pointed to one big detail as evidence. And again, Michelle's life is, like, completely put on display at this trial. Every text she's ever sent, any journal she's ever, like, anything, because they have to really get inside her head. Michelle had kind of done a sort of, quote, "dry run" a few days before Conrad died. So what I mean by this is, two days before Conrad actually died by suicide on July 10th, Michelle sent texts to two of her hometown friends saying Conrad was missing.

• 44:35Payton Moreland?

  Nothing had happened yet.

• 44:36Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh.

• 44:37Payton Moreland?

  But she is already wanting this attention. And this is what the prosecution is saying. Like if this wasn't the motive, why? Like, what is this? So she sends these, these friends a text saying Conrad's missing. And she's like, we, she makes it this huge deal. We haven't heard from him. His family's looking for him. Even though she, while doing this to her friends, is also actively communicating and texting with Conrad. So she knows he's not missing. She's, she's just blatantly lying, like crazy behavior.

• 45:05Garrett Moreland?

  This is what I'm trying to say, though. This was planned and thought through so thoroughly that, I mean, I'm sure she's still gonna get a lot of time in prison. But like, it's kind of crazy to me that it's not first degree murder. You know what I'm saying?

• 45:20Payton Moreland?

  So when Conrad was still alive two days later, having a good day with his family, as his mom spoke to on the stand, Michelle begins to panic because the prosecution believes that she had thought at this point that he would have already done it because they were talking about it. And she thought that he would have already gone through with his plan. So now that two days have gone by and he still hasn't, she's starting to be like, I already told my friends he did this. So now I'm gonna be like, they're gonna think I'm a liar. So she doesn't want to come off as a liar. She wants to make sure Conrad follows through with his plan so that our friends don't know she's lying.

• 46:05Payton Moreland?

  Okay. So after that, she began putting together this virtual alibi by texting Conrad, as well as his family, to ask if they'd seen or heard from him. At least this is the story the prosecution tells the judge, but the defense approaches all of this very differently. For starters, they say that the prosecution cherry picked the texts that they wanted to present in court and that they failed to include the ones that showed Michelle being a supportive friend, that she was encouraging him to get help. They said that eventually, though, Michelle began to get worn down by Conrad, that there is a perfectly psychological explanation to her behavior. That she felt after years of hearing him talk like this,

• 46:50Payton Moreland?

  there was nothing more she could do to help him or stop him from following through with it. They said Michelle felt like she was on a never-ending hamster wheel, and that if she stopped him one day, he would just try it again the next, which was why it just eventually didn't matter to Michelle. They claimed her words were not what pushed Conrad over the edge, because he'd been wanting to do this for years and it was his own decision. The defense also said there was nothing to substantiate what Michelle said on the phone to Conrad that night. They're like, yeah, so she told her friends he got out of the car and she told him to get back in, but there's no proof of that. And that even if she told her friends in text messages this,

• 47:35Payton Moreland?

  she could have encouraged Conrad to get out of the car.

• 47:40Garrett Moreland?

  That's funny. I mean, I get where the defense is coming from, but it's just kind of a bunch of BS. I mean, I don't think it matters if you cherry pick the texts. Like, you said what you said. Like, how much?

• 47:51Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 47:52Garrett Moreland?

  Like, come on, who cares?

• 47:53Payton Moreland?

  And-

• 47:54Garrett Moreland?

  Also, sorry, there's a perfect psychological reason why, I don't know, in all the cases we cover, someone kills one because they are having an affair. Like, there's reasons for everything we do, it doesn't mean you kill people.

• 48:07Payton Moreland?

  It's not an excuse.

• 48:08Garrett Moreland?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 48:08Payton Moreland?

  There's honestly reasons for most murders.

• 48:11Garrett Moreland?

  Hundred percent.

• 48:12Payton Moreland?

  Whether that's a motive or just someone psychologically being unwell.

• 48:16Garrett Moreland?

  You're still a murderer.

• 48:17Payton Moreland?

  You're still a murderer and you-

• 48:18Garrett Moreland?

  You're gonna go to prison.

• 48:19Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, you have to, you know?

• 48:20Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 48:22Payton Moreland?

  This is what the defense also brings up. And as you guys know, I don't normally go into a trial, but this is all this case has, because there was, like, no whodunit. I mean, this trial was unprecedented. They also argued that Conrad had spent a lot of time on his own, away from Michelle, researching suicide methods. And I think this is what's most devastating for me about this case, is that not only did Conrad's entire family have to learn that someone was heavily encouraging him to take his own life and getting angry at him that he hadn't done it yet. They also then have to sit through a trial where his own demons are being used against him.

• 49:05Payton Moreland?

  Like the fact that he was struggling in, you know, with his mental health outside of Michelle is now exploited. Like, well, you can't hold her responsible because he struggled with his mental health. It's like, well, who doesn't? Like, this happens all of the time. It doesn't mean that you can talk to someone like that.

• 49:23Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 49:24Payton Moreland?

  They also are like, listen, he hadn't even seen her in person for almost a year at this point. Conrad had free will and that when he stepped out of the truck, he could have hung up with Michelle. He could have dialed 911, he could have just drove home. The defense says he made the decision to get back in the truck. And this was a decision that was ultimately his and his alone. And the thing that's hard to wrap my head around is that at any point, Michelle could have walked away. She could have stopped speaking to Conrad if she was really exhausted from supporting him. Or she could have told his family like, hey, this has been going on for a long time. I don't have any more support to give him, but I didn't want to like leave him hanging.

• 50:09Payton Moreland?

  But instead she plays into it, she feeds into it. She becomes his number one suicide advocate. And that's what's so disturbing about this case. Of course, when you have behavior like that, it is worth calling in a psychiatrist, which is what the defense did, hoping to justify some of her actions. What the psychiatrist says is Michelle had been on an antidepressant called Celexa and that it had made her, quote, psychotic, delusional and involuntarily intoxicated. But then another doctor named Dr. Harold, Dr. Harold.

• 50:45Garrett Moreland?

  This happens so much in cases.

• 50:47Payton Moreland?

  I know. Koplowitz says, no, that's absurd. This drug is a category of drugs called SSRIs. They're safe. They don't cause any of the symptoms that Michelle's psychiatrist was claiming they did in court. Again, Garrett has a really big, he, he.

• 51:03Garrett Moreland?

  I just have an issue with this.

• 51:05Payton Moreland?

  He doesn't like experts testifying.

• 51:07Garrett Moreland?

  No, because they all just, the defense expert thinks for the defense team. The other side thinks for the other side. And he just like, they're two experts are just colliding. And I think that's just so ironic.

• 51:19Payton Moreland?

  And then it's up to the jury to trust what, what.

• 51:21Garrett Moreland?

  Like, wait, which?

• 51:22Payton Moreland?

  Which one do we believe?

• 51:23Garrett Moreland?

  Which doctor do we believe? Like, come on, guys.

• 51:26Payton Moreland?

  Yeah. This part of the defense didn't really compute, especially because as the prosecution argued, she was thinking clearly enough to then lie, manipulate and try to cover her tracks when she knew Conrad had actually done it and was dead in the car for the next 20 hours. She begins trying to build an alibi. So she knows what she did was wrong. Here's what the defense does have a leg to stand on though, and this is obviously what makes this trial so complicated. We have the right to freedom of speech. We have the First Amendment. They say that while Michelle's words may have been vile, they may have been hurtful.

• 52:07Payton Moreland?

  The defense argues at court that her words are protected under the Constitution of the United States.

• 52:14Garrett Moreland?

  Interesting. Okay.

• 52:16Payton Moreland?

  So on June 16th, 11 days after her trial began, the judge had a verdict ready for Michelle. They decided that she was guilty of involuntary manslaughter primarily due to her failure to act. So basically they said, it's not really what Michelle said. It wasn't really the text encouraging him to do it.

• 52:41Garrett Moreland?

  It's what she didn't do.

• 52:42Payton Moreland?

  It's what she didn't say that is getting her in trouble. That she had a duty to alleviate risk. Like she should have told someone, she should have texted his family. And then even when he was in the car, she could have called 911. The judge says this is what caused the death of Conrad Roy was you not stepping in to help. Michelle was sentenced to two and a half years at the Women's Center at the Bristol County House of Corrections.

• 53:10Garrett Moreland?

  Wait, what's up?

• 53:11Payton Moreland?

  Though her sentence was later reduced to 15 months.

• 53:14Garrett Moreland?

  What is, she's out, she's out, she's free?

• 53:17Payton Moreland?

  Yeah. But a lot of people in the criminal justice world found this verdict to be harsh.

• 53:24Garrett Moreland?

  You're

• 53:25Payton Moreland?

  So as and this is what is so

• 53:27Garrett Moreland?

  What is happening right now?

• 53:28Payton Moreland?

  This is what is so controversial about this case is Garrett is sitting here going, no, she should be put away for like, you can't speak to someone that way. Like you, you just can't like you had a hand in this. Whereas other people that work in the justice system are like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Freedom of speech, First Amendment, like you have essentially paved the way for future cases saying words are a weapon.

• 53:54Garrett Moreland?

  Huge. I'm a huge advocate for freedom of speech. I totally understand that, but we didn't have Twitch back then. We didn't have Instagram back then, right? So things are just a little more personal. And

• 54:06Payton Moreland?

  Well, also

• 54:06Garrett Moreland?

  I think your words can just carry different. Okay. I don't even actually, it's not even that because

• 54:12Payton Moreland?

  It's what the judge said.

• 54:13Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I think I agree with that because right being on, I mean, do I think it's right? I mean, everyone can have their own opinion, right? With when you're playing video games or you're on social media, people are telling other people to kill themselves. People are saying horrible things about other people. Does, do I think those people should go to prison? No. Do I think those people are losers and horrible people? Yeah. But should they go to prison? Should there be like any repercussions from it? No. So I agree with that. I agree with the amendment. I agree with what the judge said. But I just, I just, I guess I think it's different. I think if

• 54:48Payton Moreland?

  You're on the phone with someone as they're actively doing this.

• 54:51Garrett Moreland?

  And I guess it's because maybe they couldn't prove it, but I even think that if her message that like, why aren't you doing this yet? You said you did it yesterday.

• 55:00Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 55:02Garrett Moreland?

  I just think that's when lines are crossed and maybe

• 55:05Payton Moreland?

  There's a, there's a line there.

• 55:07Garrett Moreland?

  And maybe that's still just protected under the First Amendment. And so I guess I understand that part, but I don't know. I don't know. Put her on it. I don't know. That's hard. That's extremely difficult.

• 55:16Payton Moreland?

  Yeah. So other lawyers are like, whoa, don't do this to us.

• 55:19Garrett Moreland?

  Exactly why though, they didn't want it to go to trial because I promise you every single person would have been more like me and they would have said,

• 55:28Payton Moreland?

  It would have been angry.

• 55:29Garrett Moreland?

  Sorry. Have fun in prison.

• 55:31Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 55:31Garrett Moreland?

  Don't speak like that to people and we'll see you in 20 years.

• 55:34Payton Moreland?

  It's hard not to be angry at people who do that.

• 55:37Garrett Moreland?

  This case pissed me off. That's crazy.

• 55:40Payton Moreland?

  So there are people that are like, you paved the way for us to essentially now use words as a weapon. Mary Ann Franks, a professor at the University of Miami School of Law, agrees with this. She believed that Michelle should have been charged with domestic abuse or harassment and not manslaughter.

• 56:03Garrett Moreland?

  And I see, I really do see both sides, I think. Like trying to understand the law and where things are coming from. I see both sides, but I still, it's not fair to Conrad's family. It's not fair to Conrad. It's not okay. Not okay.

• 56:20Payton Moreland?

  Did he get out of the car?

• 56:22Garrett Moreland?

  Don't know.

• 56:23Payton Moreland?

  Did he say, I don't want to do this?

• 56:26Garrett Moreland?

  I think so. Why would she lie about that?

• 56:27Payton Moreland?

  And then did she pick up the gun and hand it back to him?

• 56:31Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 56:32Payton Moreland?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 56:33Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 56:33Payton Moreland?

  And I also don't want people who are, you know, are like, no, no, no, but the justice system. I don't want you to attack Garrett or the people's beliefs in this that are like, this is horrible, this is awful, because that is empathy. That is human emotion. When you hear about someone who treats someone this way and then the repercussions are as heavy as a life, it's frustrating.

• 56:59Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 56:59Payton Moreland?

  It's like be a decent human being. Like, do we not have a responsibility to care about other people, to be good to other people?

• 57:10Garrett Moreland?

  Hard. It's a very, it's a very difficult case.

• 57:14Payton Moreland?

  Yeah. So obviously, Michelle's attorneys agree with this. In February 2019, they tried to appeal her sentence. They told the Massachusetts Supreme Court that by rejecting it, quote, "Massachusetts would be the only state to uphold an involuntary manslaughter conviction where an absent defendant with words alone encouraged another person to commit suicide."

• 57:39Payton Moreland?

  Now, it didn't seem like the Supreme Court really cared. They denied Michelle's appeal. They were like, nope, we think she had a hand in it. She's going to serve her sentence. She, though, did not serve all those 15 months behind bars. On January 23rd, 2020, she was released early for good behavior.

• 57:56Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, give me a, okay.

• 57:58Payton Moreland?

  Since then, Michelle has kept a low profile after returning back to Plainfield.

• 58:03Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I would keep a low profile too, Michelle.

• 58:05Payton Moreland?

  She has no social media presence.

• 58:07Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, how ironic, right? Like, how ironic you bully someone into...

• 58:13Payton Moreland?

  She doesn't want people telling her to kill herself.

• 58:14Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, you don't want people telling, exactly. How ironic is that? Yo, I'm pissed. This is ridiculous.

• 58:20Payton Moreland?

  This case is hard for me.

• 58:21Garrett Moreland?

  Why?

• 58:22Payton Moreland?

  Because I think Michelle was struggling psychologically. She had...

• 58:27Garrett Moreland?

  Zero empathy level for me right here for her.

• 58:29Payton Moreland?

  I'm not saying...

• 58:30Garrett Moreland?

  Negative zero.

• 58:31Payton Moreland?

  I'm not saying this is an excuse.

• 58:33Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 58:34Payton Moreland?

  I'm saying I can see the pipeline of where she got to that point. Like, like, it almost...

• 58:42Garrett Moreland?

  I could see the pipeline of any of our cases.

• 58:45Payton Moreland?

  True.

• 58:45Garrett Moreland?

  But do I think they're murdered? Do they still deserve time in prison? Yeah, sorry.

• 58:50Payton Moreland?

  Like, if she has, you know, these, these issues with being loved, or chosen, or attention, or spotlight, and then after years of talking to him realizes she could achieve it, I don't know, though. Like, okay, anyways, I don't want to keep talking about it because I'm confused.

• 59:05Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, it's confusing. I feel you.

• 59:07Payton Moreland?

  Now 29 years old, Michelle is no longer on probation, which means the conditions that she couldn't profit off of her story have now been lifted. And while she hasn't spoken out publicly as of this recording, there have been documentaries and a Hulu series about her case, which she did not participate in. But I personally think it will only be a matter of time before we hear her side of the story, because wasn't her entire motive behind this attention?

• 59:36Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, well, I mean, that's what they say.

• 59:37Payton Moreland?

  Unless that is like somehow something she's worked through and healed. At some point, is she going to come forward and be the victim? I don't know. I don't know. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Now, in the meantime, Conrad's mother has begun working with Massachusetts lawmakers to make suicide coercion an illegal crime. So she's like, no, we're gonna name this, we're gonna make it a law. Like, suicide coercion is illegal. If you do this, it's illegal, even though it's just words.

• 1:00:06Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, I agree with that, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:08Payton Moreland?

  And it would be a crime that would be punishable up to five years in prison.

• 1:00:12Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, I like that. I think it's a great idea.

• 1:00:14Payton Moreland?

  Uh, they are calling it Conrad's Law, and Massachusetts won't be the first state to implement something like this. In fact, at this point in time, it would now be the forty-third state to have some sort of protection of suicide, bullying, coercion in place. Which personally, for me, I agree with Garrett, this is what we need. Suicide is an epidemic that needs as many sources as it can get, especially because the suicidal age is dropping lower and lower. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, every year around 5,000 people between the ages of 14 and 24 die by suicide.

• 1:01:00Payton Moreland?

  And around 600,000 people end up in the emergency room each year from attempts. Obviously, that is an extremely scary number, but if you are listening to this, I just want you to know that you matter and you deserve to stay here. And Conrad deserves to stay here. And if you are struggling at all, you guys, please, please contact the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by dialing 988 or text STRENGTH to the crisis text line at 741741,

• 1:01:38Payton Moreland?

  or go to 988lifeline.org. I know that it can be exhausting and tiring, but you deserve the help and there are resources out there to help you. Please, please do it and choose to stay because you matter so, so much. And that was the unprecedented, somewhat controversial true crime case about Conrad Roy. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. Please let us know your thoughts because like I said, this was definitely an eye opener for many people around this time. And if you haven't heard of it or you have, I'm sure it was for you as well. Let us know your thoughts and we will see you next time for another episode. I love it.

• 1:02:23Garrett Moreland?

  And I hate it.

• 1:02:24Payton Moreland?

  Goodbye.