Demetrious Johnson, Mighty Mouse, one of the greatest flyweights of all time on rough upbringing to MMA greatness, raised by a deaf mom, Dana White let down, UFC Turmoil, combat legacy, lessons of fatherhood, marriage, and life beyond the cage.

"I produced some badass fights for UFC...and they were waiting for me to lose."- Demetrious Johnson On this episode of The Pivot Podcast, the guys sit down with one of the most technically brilliant fighters in combat sports history, Demetrious “Mighty Mouse” Johnson. Widely considered one of the greatest flyweights of all time, Johnson opens up about the journey that shaped him — from a difficult childhood to becoming a global MMA icon to the disappointment of never having the fight platform he earned. Johnson reflects on growing up with a deaf mother and the responsibility and resilience that came with it. Not meeting his biological father until later in life, Demetrious' mom and sister were always at forefront of his choices, as he worked to turn his aggression and frustration into championship wrestling and competition skills. He shares how those early experiences forged the discipline and mindset that would later define his career. The conversation dives into the highs and lows of his time in the UFC, the challenges he faced during turbulent moments in the promotion, and the pivotal decision that led him to continue his legacy on the global stage of MMA. Beyond championships and highlight-reel finishes, Johnson talks about what the sport has meant to him and the mark he hopes to leave behind. He discusses the evolution of mixed martial arts, his role in elevating the flyweight division, and how he wants to be remembered by the next generation of fighters. A complicated and often misunderstood relationship with Dana White led to Demetrious being a part of history, as the first trade in MMA with Ben Askren going to the UFC while DJ landed in a different MMA platform. Ryan goes in-depth about the elite skill set that defined DJ's career, how he ranks amongst the top MMA fighters and how his legacy is remembered. Outside the cage, the conversation turns personal. Johnson opens up about fatherhood, marriage, and the balance between being a world-class athlete and a present husband and dad. It’s a candid and thoughtful look at the man behind “Mighty Mouse,” his values, and the legacy he’s building both inside and outside the cage as well as raising children with transparency and exposing them to the harsh realties of culture, race and social issues facing the world now. A powerful conversation about perseverance, humility, and greatness you don't want to miss... Pivot Family, comment, like, hit the subscribe button, we enjoy hearing and learning from you- the good and the bad, we want to know! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Ryan Clark?

  There is no MMA GOAT conversation without Demetrius Mighty Mouse Johnson, and there's no Mighty Mouse without adversity. He grew up in a household of abuse, and he didn't reconnect with his biological father until late in life. He was an excellent athlete growing up, but when he started college, it was in hopes of building a career once he earned his education. Enter Coach Matt Hume. He knew that Demetrius had something special, and with the way his career panned out, I mean, dude was absolutely correct. He became the UFC Flyweight Champion and eventually held the same belt in one championship fighting. I mean, you know you're a bad dude when two large organizations involve you in a trade. He talks about Dana White and never getting his due in the UFC,

• 1:13Ryan Clark?

  and actually why that was best for him, and he gives us his goats. I mean, and also the goat, his wife, the woman he says saved his life. Also, fellas, never let your girl have a work boyfriend. You'll see what I'm talking about a little bit later. Finally, he dives into forgiveness for his mother, for his father, and how that has helped him breathe life into his children. This is one I'm extremely excited about. It's all GOAT talk with one of the best to ever do it. Demetrious Mighty Mouse Johnson joins the Pivot Now for a convo with me, Freddie T., and Chan.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Careful now, you see, I go there.

• 2:09Channing Crowder?

  You see the hand?

• 2:11Speaker 02

  You see there? We not gonna have shit. You go there, I do this, you go like that. I'm gonna go here, throw it into the liver. You see?

• 2:18Speaker 02

  How's it going? Don't work. I'm gonna thank you. We was.

• 2:21Channing Crowder?

  I gotta say, I got your back. I got your back, but I was worried about you when I saw that hand go up.

• 2:29Ryan Clark?

  Demetrious Mighty Mouse Johnson on the Mount Rushmore top five of mixed martial artists of all time, in my opinion. This is Channing Crowder, this is Fred Taylor, I'm Ryan Clark. Pivot fam, thank y'all for pivoting with us. Man, I'm excited about this. I am a huge mixed martial arts fan, just a big fan of yours and what you were able to accomplish, but also the way you did it and the person you were during some of the things you went through. I want to ask this question, and we'll get into your story, but just to start it off, how have you found so much joy with what you went through as a young man? And then even some of the adversities you faced as an adult, especially in your career and what I felt, some of the mistreatment that you received?

• 3:13Speaker 02

  First off, thanks for having me. Big fan of the show. I think, you know, the journey as a child, like she can say, it's, I didn't know any different. You know, I was raised by a deaf mother, had my brother, and then I didn't find out we had a sister until I was maybe 12 years old. And then when I finally met my sister, we're just hanging out in the house, and my sister goes, "You know mom's deaf, right?" I was like, "What the hell you mean she's deaf?" She goes, "She's deaf." And I'm like, "Mom, you deaf?" And she goes, "Yeah, been deaf my whole life." I'm like, "That does not make any sense." She goes, "Well, think about it. Each time I tell you guys to, when you talk to somebody, you look them in the face, right? So I can read your lips. Or if I'm in the bathroom and I need toilet paper, it's, "Mom!" She'll feel the vibrations through the house.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  And so at that time, at that age, that's when I found out my mom was deaf, and I had a sister. Then a couple of years later, I found out I had another brother. And so I didn't know any different. And then when I met my wife, it was kind of like, this is, you know, this is what family does, right? Because, you know, I don't put blame on my mom or anything, but it's almost like, how was she raised, essentially? Going through school, I excelled in sports, played football, basketball, track, wrestled, cross country. And then after I got out of high school, I was kind of like, okay, well, what do I want to do? There's no professional wrestling, there's no, I can't play football, I'm 5'3", you know?

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Butt naked soaking wet, I'm probably like 130 pounds, right? So there was just no avenue. And then that's when I found mixed martial arts. I was going to college. I saw, you know, people fight on the TV and I was like, I think I can do that. Went to the gym, started training. Next thing you know, I had my first amateur fight. I was working full time at Red Lobster, worked at Taco Bell, worked pretty much every single job you could think of. And then eventually, you know, started fighting and winning and then went to Alaska. Just up from there.

• 5:00Channing Crowder?

  You dusted over. Like RC talked about your upbringing and you, you know, you could read it, you could see how it was. But it had to do something to you. It had to make you who you are.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%. So being raised by a deaf mother, not having a father figure, going to my stepdad's house every single weekend. Well, my mom went to the club. She was so focused on going to the club, you know, on in Fort Lewis, in Washington State was Fort Lewis. She'd go to the commissary and go to the PX and go to the club. And then we would go to my stepfather's house and he was very abusive. And, you know, he would just do, you know, stupid, stupid shit in my opinion where it's like, you know, don't wake up and watch Godzilla before I get up. And I'm like, okay, me and my brother, we, we want to watch Godzilla. We get up, watch Godzilla, he'll come over us. We'll feel like this big presence behind us. And I'm like, didn't I tell you guys have to get up before I not watch TV?

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Like, yeah, get your ass in the corner, get your arms up, look at that wall. Don't, don't do anything until I come out. And we'd just sit there for hours. It felt like hours, right? Just that was his form of punishment. Obviously abusive, like, you know, hitting, spanking, all that stuff. It was kind of crazy because, you know, I'm being adult now, never whipped my kids, not once, not once. I wish I did, just so I can have some respect, you know, but.

• 6:17Channing Crowder?

  We call it a pow pow. We call it a pow pow. Little pow pow.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but never, but never, never whipped them. We want to talk to them. We want to, you know, teach them how to have a conversation, right? Like, you know what you did was wrong. Like me and my wife on a trip right now and we, they're homeschool. We called my oldest, like, you're 12 years old, man. Like, why ain't you doing school? You spent four hours on Roblox. You spent two minutes on fucking school. Please make that make sense. It don't make sense. I'm gonna have a conversation with him that way he, when he gets older, he can have the conversation with his children and then so forth and have a conversation with his wife. So, but I felt that point in time in my life when my stepdad was being abusive, it made me mentally tough. Like, it truly did. So when I would wrestle, nobody was gonna beat me. When I would play football, I would, you know, do well in football. When I did cross-country, I was like,

• 7:04Speaker 02

  I'm the first motherfucker in that woods, I'm gonna be the first one out of it, right? Because I wasn't gonna get beat. And then it just transferred over in my life and, um, when I got into mixed martial arts, it was the same thing. Like, I was so mentally tough. And that's when my coach saw, he was like, "You're athletic, you're mentally tough, and you have a very high IQ when it comes to figuring out puzzles and, and, and situations."

• 7:26Fred Taylor?

  You didn't meet your, your, your biological father until in your 30s?

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:31Fred Taylor?

  What was that moment like and what did that do to reshape your, uh, your sense of self?

• 7:35Speaker 02

  It's kinda crazy because growing up, you think your dad was this criminal, this bad guy. Because, you know, my mom was painted it out that he was cheating on me, he did X, Y, and Z, and he just kinda just disappeared. And so we had our second child and he didn't look like me and my wife. We were like, "What's going on here? Okay, you, you, you are a mix, but what's, what's going on?" You know, not like, not like that, but he didn't look like, he didn't look like us. And so, um, and he had talassemia, and that's pretty much a blood disorder where it's almost like you're kinda just sluggish, you're not really uppity, like the first one, tiring. And so, my wife Destiny, she was like, "We need to figure out your dad's medical history." Like, "We need that information because it's, it's vital, right?

• 8:19Speaker 02

  If he does have talassemia, we didn't even know where it could've came from." And so I went to my mom, I was like, "Hey, I need to know, like, where's my dad? Like, what do you have of him?" She goes, "I got nothing, da-da-da-da." And I'm like... Whatever, whatever. So one day I was training at the gym, this guy got hurt, he injured his rib. And I'm over there, I say, "Hey, it's okay, just relax." And then this other guy came over and he's like, "It's okay, I deal with medical stuff, you're good." And then me and him just started talking while this guy's shit just busted open. And then, next thing you know, we started training together. And I was just talking about my dad, I was like, "Yeah, I don't know my dad, it'd be kinda cool to meet him." And then next thing we came to be training, he goes, "Hey, I lied." He goes, "I don't work in the medical field, I uh, I find people." And I was like, "Huh." And he goes, "And I also assess threats." So, let's say Ryan Clark's gonna come to the Super Bowl,

• 9:01Speaker 02

  you hire his company and they'll assess the threat level of who's gonna, is there a hit out on Ryan Clark in Super Bowl, right? And then they'll find, they'll be like, "Okay, we think it's not safe for you to come to San Francisco." So he was like, "Hey, give me a name, I'll find him." I gave him a name, he goes, "Now, let me ask you a question, do you want me to, if he's dead, do you want me to tell you?" And I was like, "Yeah, tell me." Like, I'm, you know, I'm 30 years old, if he's dead, it is what it is. He kept on searching, he kept on searching, he was like, "He doesn't wanna be found." Like, "I can't find him." Finally, what's my mom was like, "You got something." "Don't lie to me, you got something." She goes, "Here's your social security number." Right, so she had it this whole time. Gave it to the bloodhound, he finds him, gives me this whole report of him.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Like, "Okay, your dad was here in Fort Lewis, he was in Germany, he went to Korea, and then, here's his number." I was like, "Okay, alright." I think she was on a trip with the girls, and I, my memory, I think I had the boys with me. And I was like, "Alright, I'm gonna call him, I'm gonna call him." And I called him, and he goes, "Hello?" And I was like, "Hey, does uh, does the name Karen Crowe ring a bell at all?" And he goes, "Honestly, I can't say that it does." And I was like, "Well, this might sound weird, I'm your son." And uh, he goes, "Huh, huh, okay. I'm in the middle of a business meeting, you mind if I call you back?" And I was like, "Oh, business motherfucker, okay, alright, yeah, call me back."

• 10:25Speaker 02

  I didn't say that, but that's kind of what I was in the business. And I was like, okay, that's kind of over, right? You don't know what you're gonna get. You just never know what you're gonna get. So he ended up calling me back and, you know, we talked it out. And he goes, you want the, you know, the truth? Or you want the fake story? And I was like, Mitch, tell me the truth. I just wanted to know what happened. And he told me what happened. And everything he said kind of panned out. Because when you're in the military, it kind of tells you where you're stationed at, where you went there, what were your orders? And everything he said was legit. And he was like, hey, we'll take this however way you want to do it. Like, we go nice and slow, you know? I'll just steer the boat. And then, you know, fast forward, it's been the best relationship ever.

• 10:58Ryan Clark?

  Really?

• 10:58Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, it's amazing. He comes from a background, he's English, English and black. And he grew up in England from, I think he was one all the way to he was 18, joined the military. He was a performer over in England. He used to, you know, roller blade. I forgot what the damn group was called. But amazing. He just has this mindset. He was like, he's lost his wife and I have two twin brothers from his side. And he's just amazing.

• 11:22Ryan Clark?

  When you have such a hectic upbringing, like you had, the lack of structure, the lack of stability, it's difficult to trust people.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:31Ryan Clark?

  When you grow up that way, how were you able to trust that he would be a man of his word? When he's like, we could take this however you want to take it, to build a relationship that y'all have?

• 11:42Speaker 02

  That's good one. You know what? Just trust. Faith, honestly. Like, I felt there was nothing... I was so established. I had my two children, a successful career, mixed martial arts. I was happily married. So the only thing that could happen is that he's just gonna bring more wealth to my family. My kids, they don't have my side of the family ethnicity of, you know, a black grandpa, right? Like, he came and watched when we went on a trip. He was driving around and he goes, oh, we don't eat here. He goes, your black ass does today. Like, come on, let's go. Like, just that side of it. More of you get your black ass out? Like, just, that's kind of what I grew up with, right? And so it's good taste of my culture, what I was raised in. And he's just been cool.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Like, you just have to trust him, right? Like, I think when you have, like, you're on defense all the time, sometimes it's okay to let your guard down. And, you know, if he was to act out and he's like that, I was like, okay, just cut him off, right? And he's respecting me. And it's not like I was a child coming to him. It was like another, a successful adult who's raised children coming together. And now it's like, it was weird calling him dad. I was like, Mike, pops. Hey, dad. Now it's like, it's like, dad, like, what are you doing?

• 12:52Ryan Clark?

  That's cool though, man, like that, that sort of progression, but to hear you say that he was with your children as you guys went away. It's like, yeah, you gained a father, but your kid's got a grandparent.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:03Ryan Clark?

  You know what I mean, and that's, and having both of my parents still alive in such huge parts of my children's lives, I know just watching them sometimes, I feel so grateful that they got that relationship and that experience, man, so I love that your children are benefiting from it as well.

• 13:19Channing Crowder?

  When was the Google me bitch moment, though?

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 13:23Channing Crowder?

  Because you, you meet him, like you meet him, you call him, he's just talking to the dude on the line, and then, but you gotta be like,

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I was like,

• 13:30Channing Crowder?

  Bro, I'm me, like, I'm him.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I told him, I told him, he was like, so what about you? It's very uncomfortable, I'm very humble, I'm very, I'm, I'm introvert, but I'm, I'm kinda shy a little bit, and so I, I told him, I was like, he goes, so, what's your story, I was like, just Google me. I was like, just Google me, call me back. I just told him that, I was like, just Google me, call me back, and he Googled me, he goes, okay, alright, so, how the fuck does somebody like you get to this point? I told him, I was like, well, I mean, not, because people, when you look at it, it's like, you know, and, and I feel like it mixed my thoughts, we always have a chip on our shoulder, we always have something to prove, that's what makes us, I think, that type of athlete. Not saying that NFL players or basketball players don't have that same thing, but it, it does take something different, it's like, okay, I gotta make, I gotta cut eight and

• 14:15Speaker 02

  a half pounds within 24 hours, jump on a scale, rehydrate, and fight somebody, yeah, I'm gonna do it, because you ain't gonna take it out of my money, I think it just does something crazy to you, so, when I told him that, he was just blown, mind blown, because he was like, I would have never thought somebody coming from your situation would be able to achieve what you have achieved. And so when I said that, yeah, and I didn't feel bad, and the thing about my dad is that, he watches all my content, right? So when he saw that, he goes, yo, black ass did tell me to Google you, right? Like, so it wasn't like I was like, throwing like fake shit out there, I was like, I told him, I was like, just Google me, right? And how do I sit there like, okay, so, my name is Demis Johnson, I'm one of the best fighters in the world, I just felt that was easier just to, to let him know.

• 14:56Ryan Clark?

  Honestly, too, though, if you tell, if you tell the truth about who you became, it sounds like bragging.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:03Ryan Clark?

  Right, it's like, it would, it would sound... Arrogant, you know, be like, hey, like, you know, I've been fighting, this is my record, I was a champion in UFC, I became a champion. If you tell somebody that, I'd be like, aight, bro, like, aight, I get it, like, godly.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  My buddy says you don't brag about your own stats, you don't tell your own stats, you let somebody else around you do it. So when I, when I travel, people are like, oh, man, like, I'll be shaking hands and they're like, oh, man, you famous? I'm like, nah, I work for NASA, you know, I just came back from the fucking moon, it's beautiful up there. They're like, oh, really? I'm like, yeah, I just like to lie and then, but I let my friends tell my stats and it's just become a habit.

• 15:36Ryan Clark?

  Okay, now I'm starting to call some BS on this. It's not like if you don't tell them your weight class, they can't think you lying. Like, if you tell, like, if you was just, if we just walking and I don't look at your ears and I don't watch all your fights, I'd be, you'd be like, yeah, I'm the champion of the world, I'd be like, at what? Like, champion gymnast?

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:56Ryan Clark?

  You know what I mean? So it's not, it wouldn't be far-fetched for someone to not believe you.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  I agree, and I'm okay with that.

• 16:02Ryan Clark?

  Are you still like 130 pounds?

• 16:04Speaker 02

  No, I'm like 148 right now.

• 16:05Ryan Clark?

  Oh, you swole.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  I'm trying to put that weight on, baby, I'm trying to put that weight on. Yeah, uh, no, not, not 125, when I was in my career, you know, everybody wants to be the bigger man in the division, right? So everybody's trying to cut down. For me, when I fought at 135 for the world title, I was coming home weighing 138 and then those guys were coming...

• 16:24Ryan Clark?

  Those dominant, right?

• 16:25Speaker 02

  Dominique Cruz, yes, Dominique Cruz, big boy, not very like stout, but he's tall, long arms, motherfucker had me down and I was like trying to kick his shit out and I was like, can't even, can't even get that motherfucker. So, so when they brought up the 125, I was starting to fight guys who were 5'3", 5'4", more my height, more my size. But now, 2026, these motherfuckers, 5'11", 125. And it's just crazy how much bigger they got, but yeah, it's not far-fetched.

• 16:53Ryan Clark?

  How old were you when you met your wife?

• 16:54Speaker 02

  I was 18, 18? 19, 19.

• 16:57Ryan Clark?

  How you shot your, how do you shoot your shot? Because at that point, at that point, yeah, at that point, at that point, you wasn't the future of this guy. You know, you were all community college, working jobs and stuff.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I don't think I had game, but I was a straight shooter, right? I worked at Red Lobster and when I was there, what's up? Why you laughing about Red Lobster?

• 17:15Ryan Clark?

  That's the start of it. I worked at Red Lobster. Little some biscuits, little some biscuits.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  I was working at a lobster. I was fighting at the time as an amateur. And she was working there as well. We're both dating somebody separate. And we would talk to each other about like, you know, our relationship, like, ah, you know, this is going on, this is going on for her. I was out of the corner, which means when you come to a lobster, you get, you know, all you can eat shrimp, right? You get your popcorn shrimp. You gotta have 20 popcorn shrimp on the goddamn plate. And you gotta have your butter. You gotta have your knife with the fork in it. I gotta make sure your plate looks presentable when it goes to you. And so she was a server. She would come and look at it. And I'm like, here you go. And she would take it out. And so I would, you know, say, you know, booty booty booty rocking everywhere. And then she would like, she would like, um, bah, um, bah, duh, bah, you know, I was like, ah. So we'd just shoot the shit the whole time. But eventually. I was about to leave the restaurant. I was gonna go to Journeys to pursue a different career.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  And I gave her my number. I was like, hey, like, you're awesome. I was already, I wasn't with my, my girlfriend at the time. So she was my ex. But I was like, hey, you're awesome. Love to hang out with you. Here's my number. Call me. She called me that night. And she never left. Um, so yeah, she called me that night and then we hung out. And it was a great time.

• 18:23Ryan Clark?

  Moral to the story, fellas. If your old lady got a work boyfriend watching.

• 18:30Ryan Clark?

  Cause that, cause that's basically what he said. I'm saying. He's all jokes in it. She was my one girlfriend. It's jokes, it wasn't jokes. I'm gonna throw the booty booty rocking everywhere. And now, based on how she reacts, I know when I leave here, I'm gonna slide up my number. Yeah, eh? Gotta watch your work boyfriend, dawg.

• 18:47Fred Taylor?

  Now, that's true. But no, you, you've also said that she was the best thing that, to ever happen. So within that statement, what, what part of it confirms that?

• 18:57Speaker 02

  It's like, almost like sometimes like when I'm with her, I'm like, I'm like fucking 6'7". Like, I just feel unstoppable. When we first got together, we're, we're babies, right? So we kinda grew up together. But I think it was her positivity. It was her attitude towards life. She was a hustler. Like, there was a time when I was training and I didn't have a job. She had three jobs. And there was time when, you know, she wasn't, you know, she didn't have jobs. I had jobs. We were just so. Great team. Um, a great team. And we were like, we're gonna be cycle breakers, you know? Cause she comes from a family where, you know, multiple divorces, different brothers. And sisters from different, um, uh, mother, same dad. And then same thing for me, you know, I had four, from my mom's side, I had four different brothers,

• 19:41Speaker 02

  siblings, all different dads. And then on my dad's side, I had two, so a lot of divorce rate in that time era. And me and her, I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get married once and only fucking once. Like, I'm not gonna be going see my kids, you know, fucking, I'm not doing that shit. And so, we dated for like five years. I was like, I, could we've got married and had kids right off the jump? Absolutely. But we're like, we're gonna do this right. So we dated for five years. And, you know, obviously, every, uh, relationship has its ups and downs, but we were able to work through them and, and have a conversation. But just being my best friend, being the best fucking team. And I always tell her, like, I hate, like, now I'm removing my sport, I hate that it's always about me, right? Like, I don't like that. I want her, she's a person too.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Without, I'm not successful unless she is with me. I'm, I'm nothing without her, essentially, right? Like, I have all these amazing businesses going on, but if she's not at home to take care of, you know, the children, the house, when I come home to get ready for my fights, you know, when I was traveling, and she goes, "Hey, what do you need?" Right, I'm 126, I'm like, "I need X, Y, Z, I got it." No questions asked, right? So, that's why, then, the life side of it, like, being brought into her family. You know, when I showed up to her house, her dad, you know, he, he's an amazing man, he just turned 70, fucking amazing, like, absolutely amazing. I remember the first time I showed up, I came in my Honda Civic, I was like, "Mmmmm", I was like, "Ha ha", only black guy at the house, right? It was like a barbecue. And so, he looks at my rims, he's like,

• 21:11Speaker 02

  "Your tread's off your rim, boy." And I was like, "Oh, okay, that's why now..." I didn't know if I was accepted, but, like, just being brought into her family and the way she sees life, it just really opened my mind to everything. And even to this day, like, I, I talked to her, like, you know, we're on this trip together, and I'm sitting here and I'm working on projects, and I was like, "But what do you think about this?" She goes, "Well, I think you should do this." There'll be times on a business call, I was like, "I don't know why the fuck he's saying that", da-da-da-da-da-da, and this thing goes, "Baby, you gotta look at it at a different perspective." And I'm like, "Oh, okay, babe, okay." I got on the business call again, I was like, "Okay." Tell me your side of it. And she goes, "Relax, relax." And I'm like, "Okay, good." So she's my whole world.

• 21:52Ryan Clark?

  Five minutes with y'all the other night. When I got to meet you, I was obviously extremely excited. Five minutes, I could see the relationship. I could see how she's a foundational piece of not only what you think and what you feel, but what those actions mean for you and the perceptions that it could create. And I just thought it was really dope to have that conversation with y'all really quick about what we talked about and to hear her say, "Yeah, I wouldn't do that." Or, "Yeah, we've learned this." And everything was, "We learned this and we now know this." So you could definitely see the synergy between you two, man. And when you have a teammate like that, Shannon talks about it all the time. When you have a teammate like that, it does bring the best out of you.

• 22:34Ryan Clark?

  And you do want them to be recognized for the parts of your success that are also theirs, man. So I really appreciate you saying that.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  And sometimes when we go and we travel, and I'm like, "You are the logistic coordinator." Like, this shit does not like, when, you know, we're out here, she booked a hotel. She booked the podcast spot where we do our stuff. She booked all of that shit. Like, when I was in charge of that, let me tell you a funny story. I was like, "We're going to the UK. I'm about to do a seminar. I'm gonna make some good money." And she goes, "You got it all set?" I was like, "I got this shit set." We land in the UK. We land in southern UK. And I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna go..." Before we get there, she was like, "Babe, where's your seminar?" I was like, "Oh, here's the address." She goes, "You know that's like six hours north, right?" And I'm like, "You fucking lying." She goes, "Look at this." Where we were, we're staying in the middle of the UK. I was going all the way up to Keithley. And I had all my luggage. I had a 70-pound case.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  And then I had my training bag. Then I had my backpack. And then she goes, "From now on, I'm taking over the logistics." So now it's been smooth sailing. You know, I got a trip going to Montreal. She goes, "Here's your stuff." It's like, you need to hold your head high. Like, you're running a successful... You're running my business successfully, right? Not a lot of women can do it. Not just that, but also the kids, the homeschool. She handles that shit. When it's Christmas, I just show up, right?

• 23:53Ryan Clark?

  You'd be just as surprised as your kids. Damn, that school!

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, right? That takes a lot. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. Like, if, you know, if I had to decorate the house, it would just be like, "All right, guys, there's a fucking couch there, and a couch there." There's TV, enjoy like, and I think, I tell her all the time, I was like, this wouldn't happen if it was for you, so.

• 24:14Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, and, and she, I'm the same way, my wife does so much that you gotta appreciate that, you know, it's not monetized.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:21Channing Crowder?

  But you have to appreciate.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 24:23Channing Crowder?

  What's going on. She can't, she can't like them, them ears.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  I think she does.

• 24:30Channing Crowder?

  No.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Baby, you like my ears? She, yeah.

• 24:33Channing Crowder?

  But she can't like them, bruh, them ears.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  She loves my ears, but she don't like my feet, okay? She don't like my feet. Because when you're on the mat the whole time, you get all this, this, not fungus, it is a fungus, but my feet are ashy as hell, just my left one, but not my right one, looks great. My left one, she goes, I love you head to, she goes, I love you head to ankle, baby. I do not like your feet. So I think my ears are good, the feet, not so much. I'm working on them though, I'm trying to keep them all, you know, oiled up and everything.

• 25:00Ryan Clark?

  You were part of one of the worst trades of all time.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  That was the greatest trade of all time.

• 25:03Ryan Clark?

  You was part of, this was like, what the Minnesota Vikings got when they got Herschel Walker and they gave Dallas Olympics, right? And, and God bless him, you know, for Ben Askren, man, I hope you're healing up.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely, yeah, we're great.

• 25:15Ryan Clark?

  Hope, I hope you're healthy, but, and this is me, outside perception, looking in. There weren't a lot of African American, and haven't been a lot of African American UFC champions.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 25:27Ryan Clark?

  You know, we had DC, you know, we had John, but, you know, even Izzy, Kamaru, Francis, like, all of those guys aren't, they aren't from America.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:35Ryan Clark?

  Right? And so when we see people like, you was like, oh, we could connect to that. And so you immediately start to cheer.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:41Ryan Clark?

  Right? And I was like, damn, like, why wouldn't Dana talk about him? He talks about him in this way. You would think somebody that's that damn good at this job would be treated in a different way. And then, it felt, this is me, you don't have to say this, it felt like they were waiting for somebody to beat you.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:57Ryan Clark?

  Because it was like, if he's still the champion, it's hard to do this, we can't vacate the bell, do this. But soon as. I love you, Henry. Soon as Henry Cejudo beat you,

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:06Ryan Clark?

  Right? You were gone.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 26:08Ryan Clark?

  Was it, was it difficult, your stint as champion of the UFC? You're feeling like you were not respected?

• 26:14Speaker 02

  Oh, 1,000%. Like, there's, obviously, it's no secret. I've always been outspoken about, but I think the biggest thing with that, it just drives me crazy where, when you look at the best running back in the NFL, he's gonna get paid, right? You look at the best basketball player in the NBA, he's gonna get paid, right? Obviously, there's more structure of a union where it's, okay, that's who you're gonna get, but in mixed martial arts, you know, that's not necessarily the case, right? And that's why I always had a big chip on my shoulder where like, make it make sense. I'm like, I want my eighth consecutive title defense, and this guy comes in and he gets a $500,000 paycheck? Like, make that make sense. And then it's almost like, well, you don't, you don't generate business for us, you don't generate money for us. I'm like, okay, well, what can we do? Like, you know, I'll never forget when I was about to fight Henry Cejudo, I think it was the first time,

• 26:59Speaker 02

  we did a sick commercial, I, I shot for three hours, three hours. Never saw the footage to this day, and I was like, why don't you guys put that footage? Oh, this guy got hurt. I don't give a fuck. I'm still fighting, we still fighting, play that fucking footage. Like, what's the problem? And that just drove me insane. I think also, me being 5'3", 125, I think it doesn't appeal to the masses, but now it does because I have done competition against people who are 248 pounds, and I've beaten them, where it's like, just because you're bigger than me doesn't mean you can beat me. Now, if you're bigger than me and you're also skilled as me, then yes, I'm gonna, I'm gonna struggle and I might lose, and I still might lose to someone who's bigger than me, but if you are not skilled,

• 27:42Speaker 02

  I'm pretty much gonna have my way with you when it comes to like, the fighting and grappling and, you know, obviously, I take a big blow, I'm gonna have to recover, but I've shown that I can do that. So now, that's why I think my popularity has gotten bigger. But when that trade came about, It was the best thing that ever happened to my career.

• 27:58Ryan Clark?

  How did the trade? How does a trade from one organization to another organization happen? You're like Jon Gruden when he went to the damn Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  I think you said it, they were waiting for me to lose. Because obviously I was there for so long that they wanted a new face in the division, right? And so when I lost, I was like, man, like, I wonder if I can get out of my contract. And I presented it to my management and I'm like, yeah, we'll try to make it happen. And you know, back and forth between UFC and you know, my management. Eventually, I got my walking papers and they also wanted Ben Askren. At the time, Ben Askren was undefeated. He was retired. He talks a lot on Twitter, like, oh, this guy sucks, dah dah dah dah. So it was like, okay, well, we could trade Demish Johnson to one championship for one of the retired fighters. Now, let's do it.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Like, obviously, this workhorse hasn't produced anything for us. Now, don't get me wrong, I produced some badass fights in the UFC, knockouts, Mighty Wiz Bar, all that stuff. But for them, they didn't, they don't care about having the best fighters in the world. It's the fucking truth. Like, could you imagine, it's like, okay, well, you know what? You know, Jackson Smith and Nigga Ma, let's say he wins the Super Bowl, they're like, you know what? You know what? We just go ahead and cut you, don't worry about, fuck, get out. They just cut him, right? Everyone was like, why are you cutting the best fucking wide receiver in the league right now? Ah, we don't care about that. That's what the UFC does. Like, they'll cut people who are way better on the roster. Like, for example, there was a fight over in Abu Dhabi somewhere.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  One of the guys, Marcus Buchecha, great, 15-time Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu World Champion, all these accolades. He fights another guy, I don't even know the other guy's name. Marcus loses to that guy, they cut the guy who fucking won. I was like, that doesn't make sense. So, get back in the context. So they were willing to trade me for Ben Askren because Ben Askren was gonna bring way more noise. And then, once they did that, I went to, I won chip-a-chip. He came to UFC, I think he won one or two fights and...

• 29:58Ryan Clark?

  Fought Jorge Masvidal.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Fought Jorge Masvidal. And you see, people are like, oh, they lost in our trade. I was like, I don't think they did because when they got Ben, that's the rise of Jorge Masvidal. Ah, boom, knocks him out, oh, stiff, right? Then after that, you have Kamar Usman. Kamar Usman was great, amazing champion, right?

• 30:17Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, he did the show, yes.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Then, next thing you know... Kamaru Usman versus Jorge Masodol knocks him out, right? Because they're going back and forth and da-da-da-da. Then the rise of Kamaru Usman, then you have Koby Covington. Then Koby Covington's running his mouth. Kamaru Usman fucks him up, right? And so then it goes, then you go. Mixed martial arts is a very vicious sport. You're gonna get yours. It's just a matter of time. And then for me, I won a championship. I went over there, did amazing things, won a world grand prix, got knocked out. Then I won, I beat Rock Tank. Then I had that beautiful knockout and I hit that flying knee. But then when people look at it as a aspect of like, who's the better fighter? Yeah, 1,000% I'm a way better fighter because my skill set's way. My skill set's way better, right?

• 31:01Fred Taylor?

  That laugh scared me a little bit.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. What's that? It's the laugh of a demented human. You know, like to do what this dude do, like you gotta be sick in the head.

• 31:10Fred Taylor?

  That's the grab me, that's the grab me laugh.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  A little bit, a little bit. So, but yeah, it was a, it was a trade and I'm so grateful what happened because it changed my life.

• 31:17Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, I'm sitting here trying to draw parallels to our sport. And the closest thing I can come to is Barry Sanders, right? Stature and, and what the Lions organization, how they devalued Barry. They didn't do enough to put pieces around him. So he eventually retired and for a while it was a mystery, right? And looking at you, I would say the UFC did the same thing.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:40Fred Taylor?

  What was that, that moment you knew it was time to shut it down?

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Oh, to retire fighting?

• 31:45Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, yeah, retired.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Oh, retired fighting, okay, gotcha, gotcha. Well, the UFC, to answer that question, after I lost the fight, I was like, get the fuck out of here. Because if I was to come back and sign another contract with UFC, when you're a champion, you're making, and this is pennies to your guys', you know, world. But when you become champion at that time, even at this time, it's still maybe the same, but they just had a new deal. You're making 350 flat, so 350,000 dollars flat. You, if you win, you go up every 10,000, uh, 10,000 dollars. So 360, 370, 380. And then when I lost at that time at 380, your pay gets cut significantly in half. Just like, oh, fuck yeah. Like you might make 380, next time you show up, do the exact same fucking job, you gonna make maybe. 125 and 50. It just changed. So when I got the opportunity to go to 1, I was like, hey,

• 32:30Speaker 02

  we gonna take care of you. I was like, bet. So I went over there. But when it came point in time when I was ready to retire, after I won my Triple G match against Adrian Riano. Yeah, I was like, fuck, man. I was like, is this all my life is? It's just fight, go home, show the kids. I love that part. That part's amazing. But come, another interview, same thing over and over and over again. I was like, there's gotta be more to life than just this. And so I was like, you know what? I'm gonna try to put some weight on. I'm gonna give myself a year to focus on what I want to do after that. And yeah, that was it. It was like, there's time to get out. And I think a lot of people in our sport of mixed martial arts, they never get out on top.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Right? Like, GSP did, Habib did. You know, John Jones is still in it, you know, but with him still being in it, everybody's like, oh, he's ducking Tom Aspinall. There's all these things going on. For me, it's like, I have other things in my life that fulfill my cup.

• 33:23Ryan Clark?

  You mentioned those names. It was this weekend, actually, Volk put you in his top four. I think it was three or four fighters this weekend. They were asking who the top four favorite fighters were, best fighters of all time. And it was always, it was John, it was GSP, it was Mighty Mouse, it was Khabib. Like, all of those guys. And that was the UFC. They weren't asking mixed martial arts of all time. Do you truly consider yourself as part of the top four or five fighters that's ever fought in the UFC? And if not, or even if, who would also be included in that conversation?

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Well, you remember, we don't talk about our own stats now, right? So I'll remove myself. But for flyweights, 1,000%.

• 34:03Ryan Clark?

  Greatest of all time.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I haven't seen another flyweight do what I've been able to do and not, and have the IQ that I have. Yes, I've gotten knocked out, but the longer you're in this sport, it's gonna happen, right? But I will say, inside of MMA, in UFC, or just all around, for me, I like to see IQ. I just like, I can see guys go back and forth. You having a fucking slugfest, you get dropped, you drop him. Oh, you, I, no. Obviously, Izzy's, I'm a big fan of him. The way he's able to move, his swagger, the way he carries himself out. Outside of the octagon, John Jones, even though I have my, you know, little ticks about him, you cannot take away what he's been able to achieve inside Mexican martial arts. Daniel Cormier, and that's the thing people don't realize, Daniel Cormier came late in the game.

• 34:48Ryan Clark?

  He was in his 30s.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  He was not fucking like 29 years old fighting John Jones. Could you imagine a 29 year old, Daniel Cormier fighting a 29 year old John Jones? That would be a great fight. You know, Habib, obviously, you have Izal Makhachev, you have Ili Deportier, where I'm very high on him right now.

• 35:03Ryan Clark?

  Oh, he's a monster.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  He's a monster. He's very strategic how he goes about it. He knows where he needs to be in a fight. He crosses the void when he needs to, and he throws in combination, he goes bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. And it's, I wasn't this good, like, when I was active. I got better when I stopped fighting, because you look at the sport totally, I'm sure you guys, you guys watch football. Oh, um, he could have did this, X, Y, Z. So people don't realize, like, when you're on your feet, it's bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. It's, it's, it's the rhythm change and the cadence, he's very good about doing that. So there's a lot of great athletes, Charles Olivera, I mean, and if you go back in old days.

• 35:38Ryan Clark?

  Max, man, I love Max.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, Max Holloway, he's great, you know, Max, and I always tell people, I just want a little grappling. Grappling motherfucker. It's, it's almost like going, it's almost like if you're, if you're a wide receiver, you're gonna run your mouth like this. Not go, ah, ah, ah, and like, not use your, it's like, that's how I look at someone.

• 35:55Ryan Clark?

  How much, how much of that thought process though, right? Because you mentioned Max, and you talked about, even, like, Ilya, there's so much strategy that goes on, but he also has one punch knockout power.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:05Ryan Clark?

  Right? And watching your fights, it was so highly skilled, right? And you could, in my opinion, greatest submission of all time, right? But you could submit, right? You could fight, it was combinations, but it wasn't always the most violent fight. You didn't take punishment. People like that.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:24Ryan Clark?

  How much, how much of you not being willing to brawl kept you from being one of the favorites of the UFC higher up?

• 36:32Speaker 02

  It kept me very high, because I would always use my IQ when I fight. It's, it is a violent sport, but, you know, the name of the game is hit not to be hit, right? Like Floyd Mayweather, when he would fight, people criticized him. How his defense was so masterful, how he would move, how his fights are born. But it's like, he's not in there to have a competition where, let's beat each other up. Like, when I watch fighting and two guys are beating each other up, I'm like, this is fucking stupid. Like, even when there's, the first time I fought at 125, me and E Macaulay had a war going back and forth. And I got done, I was like, oh man, that was dope. My coach goes, "That was the stupidest fucking thing I ever saw in my life." He goes, "That was stupid as shit." I was like, "What you talking about? We're going back and forth, throwing a high kick, man, we got $50,000 bonus, what you talking about?" He goes, "Do you realize, do you want to have a long career, or do you want to have a short career?

• 37:17Speaker 02

  Do you want to have a career after you're done fighting?" And I was like, "Yeah." And he goes, "You have the skillset and the ability to flow through martial arts with ease." They can't. You can pop, pop, pop, and move, pop, pop, pop, and hit, and wrestle, and clinch, and all, you can do that. They fucking can't. So when I sit there, and my coaches always put that in me, and so when I sit there and I watch people fight and they don't do that, I feel like they're not, they're not expressing the best version of martial arts. That's just, and they might say, "Oh, you talking shit, you think you good, blah, blah, blah." When you're being raised, when you're 18, all the way you're 37 years old, from one man who's like probably the biggest father figure of my life, Matt,

• 38:03Speaker 02

  what product you think is gonna happen, right? It's like, that's just how I see it.

• 38:07Channing Crowder?

  And bro, you bring up like, you bring up Floyd, who was a, who was, like you're saying, top three boxer, four, whatever you want to say.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 38:15Channing Crowder?

  My favorite, to ever do it. And you talk about the showmanship of it, where you have to sell yourself.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:21Channing Crowder?

  Do you look back, did you sell yourself enough? Did you get in enough fights? Did you mush people in the face at weigh-ins?

• 38:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:28Channing Crowder?

  The stuff that would actually sell you, because you can get in the ring and whoop somebody's ass, but you have to sell tickets to do that.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  1,000%, so, did I sell myself enough? No, because I felt my fighting would do that, right? You know, where I come from, you don't talk shit, because you get your ass beat. Right, that's, you just didn't do it, so I didn't grow up doing that. And so when I got to that point in my career, I was so focused on breaking Anderson Silva's record, which was 10 consecutive I don't have time to be trying to sell myself. I'm in the gym focused on my craft. You even hear Conor McGregor say it. It took a lot out of him. Like, "Oh, you got, you in the fucking jungle with balloons in the hand throwing up gang signs with his hands." That takes energy. Even Ronda Rousey says it. It takes energy. While they were focused on that, you know, and I'm not saying they weren't focused on their craft,

• 39:16Speaker 02

  but for me, I was so focused on winning my fights and always evolving as a professional athlete. And so, when I look back on my career, should I have talked more? No, I think I should have been more open about my personality, who I am now. But once again, I just think that I wasn't in a position to show like, "Okay, I'm gonna grapple someone who's 248 pounds, right? I beat them." If I would have did that in the beginning of my career, people like, even though he's small, he's gonna fuck you up, right? But I don't regret anything different in my career because it made me more popular now. Because they're like, "Dude, you mistreated this guy when he was literally..." It wasn't like, I can understand if I showed up and I had some boring ass fights. I can understand that, right?

• 39:59Speaker 02

  But, I mean, submission tonight, knockout tonight, fight in tonight, mighty whiz bar, knocked out. I mean, I was put on banger fights. Hammer C. Hudo, knocked him out in the first round, right? Joseph Navidis, knocked him out in the first round. I mean, I can understand that. There's people who've done way fucking worse performances in their career in mixed martial arts and made more money than me. That does not make fucking sense at all, so.

• 40:24Fred Taylor?

  DJ, you're a tough dude, man, but I do wanna know because I'm gonna bring it back around. What did fatherhood teach you about yourself? And what would you want your kids to learn most about your journey?

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think fatherhood's interesting, you know? It's almost like I get my own playbook because I have a father figure. It's an interesting journey. Like my dad says, they don't come in handbooks. Like, how do you raise a child in today's society with social media, with all the distractions?

• 40:56Speaker 02

  It's very hard and I'm still navigating it, but it makes me feel that I just want them to be successful at whatever they do, right? I think society puts a lot of pressure on like, "You gotta get your homework done." I think, I don't know who it was, I feel like it could have been one of you guys, I'm not sure, but someone's like, "Don't wake your kids up, let them sleep." "You ain't gotta wake them up, you gotta, 'Get up, get up, get up.'" And there's a part of me where our society's so fixated on putting our kids in that rat race, right? Like, "You gotta get up, you gotta da-da-da, sit at a desk like this for, you know, six hours, da-da-da." It's like, learn about the 1900s. It's like, they don't need to know about that. I don't know anything about the fucking 1900s, right? Do you?

• 41:34Ryan Clark?

  No.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Right? Like, I don't know how to do fractions, right?

• 41:37Ryan Clark?

  I know how to do fractions.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  I don't, I ain't gonna fucking lie.

• 41:39Ryan Clark?

  I'm not gonna let you put me in that boat. I'm not gonna let you do me that. I know the common denominator. I'm not gonna let you do me that.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  I know pen dogs, right? You know, please excuse, my dear Aunt Sally, I know that, right? But how powerful do they need to know that, right? Like, yeah, he's 12 years old, so I do think he needs to know about, you know, interest rates. I think the more he is empowered with true knowledge, that's gonna, you know, I was on a business trip one time, this guy, he was like 25 years old, and he goes, "Dude, I don't even have fucking health insurance." I'm like, "How the fuck you don't have health insurance?" That blew my mind, right? And he's a successful streamer. And he's like, "I don't have health insurance." I'm like, "Wow, that's amazing that you don't know about health insurance." So, I sit here and I think like, "How can I prepare my children for when they become young adults?" And that's been like a struggle. Like, me and my buddy all the time, we'll hang out,

• 42:30Speaker 02

  and I'm like, "Damn, sometimes you ever think your kids aren't gonna be successful? Like, could you imagine, like, are they gonna have a successful marriage? Are they gonna have a successful job? Are they gonna understand the rat race? Because everybody has to go through it, right? But they don't wanna get trapped in it. That's probably the biggest struggle I have as a father, right now, with my children.

• 42:49Ryan Clark?

  You talk a little bit about your upbringing, and we haven't, we didn't dive into it in that manner. How have you been able to try to... Get your kids to connect to your culture. Because especially, because when you don't have a family.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:05Ryan Clark?

  Like you didn't.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 43:06Ryan Clark?

  And now, you've ingratiated yourself into your wife's family. Like you said, I was the only black dude at the cookout.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 43:12Ryan Clark?

  Right? You actually called it a barbecue. That's how I know you was the only black dude there.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:16Ryan Clark?

  Right? You know what I'm saying?

• 43:18Ryan Clark?

  So I said- Burgers and dolls. Yeah, yeah. That's how I already know.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  No pork and beans, no collard greens, no chitlins.

• 43:26Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, yeah. You already know, well, you know what they had on the grill. But how has that, how difficult has it been, I guess, to indoctrinate them into your culture as well? And where you come from, when you are separated from it in the way that you are?

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Football. Football helped. Because I did grow up, like, from, I would say, from, you know, when I was a kid, all the way till, you know, 18. Even a little after 18, I'll still hang out. I still hang out with the same people. Not all of them, but my culture, I still see them all the time. And so, but when they do go to play football, when they first start to play football, because my kids started jiu-jitsu, right? Jiu-jitsu is more of a respectful sport, right? You bow, shake hands, we grapple, I armbar you, you tap, oh, hey, good, good match, right? When you go to the other side of sports, like football, okay, you ready? You can't fucking catch. You got greasy ass hands.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  And then, you know, one day, one of the kids, another kid at school called my middle son, then where did he go? What's up there? And he goes, what did he just call me? And then my oldest son, Tyrone, goes, oh man, he just, he's recognized you as one of his own. And so, he's more into understanding the, the, the culture that he comes from. But then, when we go to my dad's house, and then when we go to Uncle E, Uncle E's house, we go to a Blacklist's house, or a Bebe's house. They're immersed in that culture. But it's something that, you know, they have to see. And it's, culture is always different. Meaning that I am black, but when I go to New York, I am not black. They're like, you're not black. Like, look the way you dance. You, look the way you fucking dress.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  It's like, there's different cultures inside the culture, I feel like.

• 45:08Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  And they, they point him out. I, I want to- I went to a men's warehouse to get a suit. And there was this tall, young, black gentleman. He goes, "You are not black." And I was like, "What the fuck you mean I'm not black?" He goes, "Look at your nose. Look at your cheekbones. You don't have black features." And I was like, "Well, guess what? I'm black." He goes, "Huh. Thought you were Portuguese or Brazilian or Mexican." I'm like, "All right." You know, so when I grew up, you know, I would wake up, mom be cooking chitlins, smell like shit. And then she'll be bumping music, 808, you know, just a big, like, fucking speaker this big. It'd have the wood grain dash on the back with the fucking thing. And then she'll have the windows open, busting, you know, Q93 California. Like, I would come home from school. I can, when I come down the road, I can smell the chitlins.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  I'm like, oh, it's just, like, I grew up in that. And so I try to sprinkle a little bit of that in my kids. But it's not, it's not that culture. They go to, uh, when I go to Maryland and Virginia, it's a totally different culture that I am not used to because it's just in a different part of the world.

• 46:10Ryan Clark?

  What was the, the N-word conversation?

• 46:12Speaker 02

  Oh, it was, "What's up, nigga?" That was it.

• 46:14Ryan Clark?

  No, no, no, say, what was the conversation? No, say, what was the conversation with your son? Because it is a conversation.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:20Ryan Clark?

  But like, because it was obviously a black kid.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:23Ryan Clark?

  That, that said it.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 46:24Ryan Clark?

  But you're taught that that's not a word you use.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 46:27Ryan Clark?

  Right? And so, you know, I know he was probably like, "Wait, you can't call me that or that can't..." What was the conversation of your oldest son? When you said, "Tee was like, "Ay, look, it's cool. He ain't really saying it like that."

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. We're always transparent with our children. Always transparent, right? We don't hide anything. We, we tell them how the world is. And I'll elaborate more on that, too. But Tyrone told me, "Shit, I was like, dude, he just sees you as your own." And Maverick, and then when you're playing football, when you're in this sport, right? When I grew up, you were talking shit the whole time. When my wife grew up, they didn't talk shit like that, right? So when they're playing sports, about respect. But when you're playing football and somebody says, "You got butter hands, you, you can't catch, man, you slow, you can't lift that?" My kids, they had to get conditioned to like, "Dude, that's just how you talk in the hood. That's just what you do." So they're getting immersed in that with football right now because you're playing against kids who are coming from the hood where we lived, and we live in a very privileged area, right? And so they don't...

• 47:21Speaker 02

  don't have to go through that adversity that I have to go through or my wife had to go through. But back on the context of being transparent, when my son, he was very, very intelligent as a young kid. And Alexa would move the screen like that, right? You have Alexa. And it'll always say the news. And one day, my son was, we're in the kitchen chilling. And it says, "U.S. Navy or U.S. Military Stops Ship Sex Trafficking Children." And my son goes, "Yo, Dad." He's like maybe 10. He goes, "What's sex trafficking?" I was like, "Oh."

• 47:51Fred Taylor?

  I explained it.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  Well, let me tell you. And I told him straight up. I was like, "There's people out there who exploit young children and women on, you know, sex trafficking and exploiting them through sexual pleasure, whatever they want to do." And he goes, "Why would they do that?" And I was like, "'Cause we live in a fucking sick world. There's people out there who are sick."

• 48:08Fred Taylor?

  Absolutely evil.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I just, I think that's the best way you can, you know, be honest with the kid. Cause once you start lying to them, then when they uncover the truth, then it's like, "Why would you lie to me?" Right? It's like, same thing with my mom. It's like, "Why, why keep all these things from me, from my dad, from my dad, when she could've just told me like, "Hey, like, this is what happened with me and your dad." Right? Like, "I was cheating. I was doing X, Y, and Z. And, you know, he had to go to orders to Germany and he was gonna take me with him and..." So, but yeah, I'm always transparent with my kids and, yeah, it's been good.

• 48:43Fred Taylor?

  The biggest pivot in life. That's that one moment you can look back on and say, "Because this happened to me and for me, I am who I am today."

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Aw, man. The girlfriend I was with when I first met my wife, Destiny, I was like, "Okay." I broke with her. I started dating her, right? And then this [BLEEP] didn't call me back. And I was like, "Oh, God. There's still something there. Let me go find out." Alright? So I told her, I was like, "Hey, like, like, I fuck with you. I like you a lot, but I feel if I'm gonna have to pursue this, I gotta close this door. Cause if I keep on, you know, dating you, and I have second thoughts on her, that I don't think I can fully commit to you." So I went back to her, right? It was, honestly, you can look at it as the best decision of my life. The reason why is because I knew she wasn't the one. I knew she was not the one.

• 49:35Fred Taylor?

  That's fair.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:36Fred Taylor?

  What'd you say when you went back?

• 49:38Speaker 02

  To her? I said, "I fucked up." I said, "I fucked up. I'll take as much time. You take as much time. You let me know when you're ready." And she goes, and she told me too, we're in high, we're in college. She turned around, she goes, "You made the biggest mistake in your fucking life." And I was like, and I looked down, I was like, "You know what? You might be right, but for me, to figure out if this is real, I gotta go close that fucking door." And I closed that door, and I went to her and I said, "Hey, I fucked up. You let me know when you're ready." And then that was the biggest pivot.

• 50:07Ryan Clark?

  How long it took till she was ready?

• 50:09Speaker 02

  Before I closed that? I mean, it was probably a week, maybe?

• 50:13Ryan Clark?

  For Destiny to be like, "Okay, we good. We just dating, dating."

• 50:16Speaker 02

  Oh, how long it take, baby? Like, two months. Two months, yeah. I, no, I thought he meant like when I was with her. Tighten his ass up, Destiny.

• 50:24Ryan Clark?

  And I do, I have, I have a question about forgiveness.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:28Ryan Clark?

  Right? When you explain your upbringing with your mother,

• 50:33Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 50:34Ryan Clark?

  whether it was the lies or not being present for certain things, there is a level of abuse, I would have to, and I'm only guessing, I would have to assume you feel like you had to endure because she wasn't there, because I'm with my stepdad, because you're clubbing and doing these things. How were you able to forgive the things of your past so you can be in this place now to give so much of yourself to your family?

• 51:00Speaker 02

  It was a lot. You know, my wife helped me through that. And I think the biggest thing with that is, it's hard because I look at like, what was her upbringing, right? I can't pass judgment on her because how, what was she going through? What was she battling? And losing my sister, I saw how that affected my mom, and then my brother getting schizophrenic, bipolar, she still take care of him. Like, you just have to take a step back and just feel like, you know, you just have to forgive. Like, it's, it was a hard thing for me to do, but when I would be like, "Man, how come she doesn't want to be, these are the only grandchildren she's ever gonna get. There are no other children." My older brother, he got a vasectomy, he don't, he's not around.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  My sister passed away. My brother, he ain't having no kids. These are the only fucking grandbabies she's ever gonna get. This is a part of life that she would never be able to partake in because she chooses not to. And that was very hard for me to, I would always hang on, she's gonna come around, she's gonna come around, she's gonna come around. And my wife was amazing, like, you know what? Herself internally knew she wasn't gonna come around, but she would always give me hope and support me that with the rule she might come around. But eventually, she was like, "You have to see on your own that she's never gonna change." And I had to forgive her for that. She made those choices. And, you know, once I was able to do that, it's, my life is so much better. I don't have so much anger, resentment, or like, you know, but the one thing I will resent,

• 52:31Speaker 02

  I will always question myself is like, "Could I have been a better son and reached out more?" Even though I have, but could I, you're always gonna say, "Could I have done more? Could I have done more?" And when that, when that happens, I'll see how I navigate that road.

• 52:46Ryan Clark?

  Well, man, you've done so much for so many mixed martial arts fans, whether it's UFC, One Championship, bro, who you have been as a fighter, but also, man, getting an opportunity to talk to you as a man, but I really enjoyed it. We appreciate your time.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Thanks, man. I appreciate you guys. Hey, you see how fast his hands were moving though?

• 53:06Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, every time he was, hey, every time he was talking about fighting, he was like, "Yeah, you know, so I was..."

• 53:35Speaker 05

  Every game day, you show up for your team. Now, it's your time.

• 53:46Speaker 06

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