The Enslaved Chefs At Monticello Who Created American Cuisine (Reheat)

This week in honor of July 4th, we’re exploring an important part of American history – the contributions of enslaved Black chefs, whose work influences American cuisine to this day. In 1784, Thomas Jefferson brought the enslaved chef James Hemings, brother of Sally Hemings, with him to France to train under the French culinary masters of the day. Hemings created a cuisine that was half French, half Virginian, and brought it back to Jefferson's plantation, Monticello.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  If you're the kind of person who plans vacations around where you're gonna eat, Scottsdale belongs on your list. And look, whenever I go somewhere, my priority is on eating things that are the specialties of that region, eating things that I can't get at home. So when I'm in that area, I'm looking for the specialties of the region, like authentic southwestern and Native American flavors, modern Mexican cuisine, and as basic as it sounds, homemade, fresh flour tortillas. There's nothing like it, and you can't get them like that in the Northeast. And there is such a farm-to-table culture in Scottsdale, inspired by the Sonoran Desert. Everything is so fresh, the peppers, the spices, it is so vibrant. And Scottsdale's just got a great vibe. It's one of those places where breakfast becomes brunch, happy hour turns into dinner, and every patio has another amazing view.

• 0:45Dan Pashman?

  And explore Old Town Scottsdale between meals, or relax at a spa after brunch. From award-winning and James Beard-recognized chefs to neighborhood gems and nationally acclaimed restaurants, every meal in Scottsdale tells a story. So come hungry and leave with new favorite restaurants. Start planning your next culinary getaway at experiencescottsdale.com. I grew up on Lando Lake's cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lake's American cheese. And now, Lando Lake's cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lake's cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lake's has plenty of quick

• 1:26Dan Pashman?

  dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:46Dan Pashman?

  All right, it's Dan here. Happy 4th of July weekend, happy birthday, America. And we have a very special episode we're reheating for you. This is probably, for me personally, my experience of taping this show, one of the most powerful and moving episodes. I've ever worked on in 16 years. I mean, I had such an extraordinary opportunity to go to the kitchens at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello and tour the kitchens where enslaved black chefs really laid the foundation for a lot of what would become American cuisine. And not only did I get to see it, but my guides were historian Nia Bates, Michael Twitty, who's one of America's foremost writers on the transatlantic slave trade and its impact

• 2:28Dan Pashman?

  on American food, and Gail Jessup White, a descendant of Thomas Jefferson's. It was so powerful to see these kitchens through their eyes. And listen, from french fries to ice cream to mac and cheese, the enslaved chefs who worked in these kitchens really introduced an array of now classic dishes to America. So I think this is a very appropriate episode for the Fourth of July. Now, remember, if there's an episode you want us to pull out of the deep freezer, drop me a line at [email protected]. Thanks and enjoy. This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people, and we're coming

• 3:07Dan Pashman?

  to you live from the Heritage Harvest Festival at Monticello in Charlottesville, Virginia. This week, in honor of July 4th, we're exploring an important part of American history, the contributions of enslaved black chefs, whose work influences American cuisine to this day. And to do that, we're traveling to a real plantation. This live show you're gonna hear took place under a big tent on the lawn at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. The Heritage Harvest Festival has food vendors, farmers, artisans, a seed exchange, overall about 2,000 people. It's a joyous backdrop for what would be a day of conflicting emotions.

• 3:56Dan Pashman?

  Monticello is right behind you all. I can see it behind you. We're under a tent. It's beautiful. There's not a cloud in the sky. It's a glorious day to be here. Thomas Jefferson grew up on one of the largest tobacco plantations in Virginia. And when he was 21, he inherited thousands of acres of land, including this little hilltop that was always his favorite boyhood haunt called Monticello, Little Mountain. And that's where we are right now. The process of building and rebuilding Monticello, this home, was his obsession. He spent decades. He would go to Europe and come back. He'd be like, no, I need this different kind of roof. And no, I want pillars. And no, I need to design the kitchen this way. And, and he, he never stopped.

• 4:41Dan Pashman?

  And that obsession bankrupted his family and also produced one of America's most iconic architectural masterpieces, the home of the man who wrote that all men are created equal. Monticello was also a working plantation, home to about 130 enslaved African Americans at any given time. Over the course of his life, Thomas Jefferson owned 607 people and had six children with at least one of them. These are the contradictions of this place. Jefferson was also America's first foodie. When he lived in France, he brought the enslaved chef James Hemings, brother of Sally Hemings, with him.

• 5:26Dan Pashman?

  James learned to speak French. He studied under the French masters of the day. And he fused what he learned with Virginia's food traditions. French fries, ice cream, mac and cheese, meringue. All of these foods came to America through Monticello.

• 5:49Dan Pashman?

  On that beautiful day at Monticello, we had a great live show with Gail Jessup White, who you'll hear in a bit. She's a descendant of Thomas Jefferson and of enslaved chef Peter Hemings. But this podcast episode is going to focus on what Gail and I did before we took the stage, because that's the part of the day that stuck with me the most. We toured Monticello's kitchens along with two black historians.

• 6:13Dan Pashman?

  So, Nia, where are we right now?

• 6:16Speaker 01

  We are in the oldest building on the mountaintop. We're standing in the basement level of the South Pavilion. And the South Pavilion is the first building that's constructed here. We're standing in a space that was originally a kitchen and then was later a wash house. And it's probably about 18 by 18 in terms of dimensions. It's not a huge space. You can see around us the base of the original stucco, which we discovered during the archaeology of this space once we removed the floor.

• 6:46Dan Pashman?

  Oh, yeah, it looks almost like the base of a fireplace.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it looks kind of like the base of a fireplace.

• 6:51Dan Pashman?

  This is Nia Bates. She's a historian at Monticello. The room we're in is dark with exposed bricks. It feels almost like a square cave. And so who cooked here?

• 7:03Speaker 01

  So in this space, we think Ursula Granger and probably Suk Evans or Sukie were probably the first two cooks in this space. And then later in this space's use, James Hemings would have come on as head chef.

• 7:18Dan Pashman?

  And Ursula Granger was the first head chef at Monticello, was that right?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, we believe Ursula did most of their early cooking. Jupiter Evans' wife, Suk or Sukie, would have also been cooking in this space and they probably shared those responsibilities.

• 7:32Dan Pashman?

  In 1967, a bathroom for Monticello's tourists was built inside this kitchen. Nia can't say for sure why this decision was made, but she suspects it just wouldn't have occurred to the white people running Monticello at the time that visitors would care about seeing the place where the enslaved cooked. Three years ago, the room was excavated, the bathroom was removed, and what remains of the kitchen was open to the public. As I said, we were joined on the tour by Gail Jessup White, a descendant of Thomas Jefferson and of the enslaved chef Peter Hemings, brother of James and Sally Hemings. Today, Gail works at Monticello as a community engagement officer.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  When I'm here, I feel the weight of history in this space. My ancestors were here. When we excavated this space, it'd been covered up for 200 years. So when I walked on the ground that we're looking at now, it was with the knowledge that my great-great-great-grandfather, Peter Hemings, who also cooked here, would have walked on that same ground. So for me, this space is the most sacred ground on this plantation.

• 8:43Dan Pashman?

  It's amazing how even something as simple as just seeing a rectangle of bricks on the ground that were the base of a hearth or a chimney, you can really picture it. I can picture enslaved chefs working in here.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  And that's the point of spaces like this, because it gives the enslaved the humanity that they've been robbed of in American history.

• 9:08Dan Pashman?

  Gail, do you remember the first time you came into this space?

• 9:11Speaker 02

  I absolutely remember the first time. I can tell you exactly what I had on. I had on a yellow jacket. And in spite of having on that bright yellow jacket, I got on my hands and knees and I rubbed that red clay that we're looking at right now, all on my hands, pushed my jacket sleeves up, all on my arms.

• 9:29Dan Pashman?

  Why was rubbing the clay on your hands specifically the...

• 9:32Speaker 02

  My people touched that ground. I wanted to be as close to them as I possibly could. And that, for me, was the closest I've ever been to them physically.

• 9:47Dan Pashman?

  Michael, how do you feel when you come into a space like this?

• 9:49Speaker 03

  Like I need to get to work. My job is to bring spaces like this to life.

• 9:55Dan Pashman?

  This is my third guide on the tour, Michael Twitty. He's the author of "The Cooking Gene: A Journey Through African-American Culinary History in the Old South." Michael is also a historical interpreter, so he cooks at former plantations using the methods of enslaved chefs. He described what the cooking process in this kitchen was actually like over 200 years ago.

• 10:15Speaker 03

  Right now, it's about between going in 9 o'clock.

• 10:19Dan Pashman?

  In the morning.

• 10:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, family would have already eaten breakfast by then. So your job between nine and two is the biggest hustle of the day. That's a time period when you have to pull together the main meal. Because remember, there's no, there's no, it's not like Disney movies where there are all these candles, right? People eat and socialize with natural light and firelight. By the time the true supper comes on, it's going to be dark. And those are generally leftovers. So you have to think about people going to a garden. Um, the keys to the pantry being opened by, um, the lady of the house.

• 11:04Dan Pashman?

  I would love to get a little bit technical here about the type of cooking that was happening in this space. So am I right to kind of divide the timeline into sort of like before and after James came back from France?

• 11:16Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 11:22Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, when James Hemings goes to France, food in America is changed forever. And so is James.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Slavery is illegal in, in France, and James was free while he was there. Uh, the only thing he would have had to do to claim that freedom is to petition a French court.

• 11:38Dan Pashman?

  Stick around.

• 11:48Speaker 04

  Ooh, advertisements, yummy.

• 11:53Dan Pashman?

  If you're the kind of person who plans vacations around where you're going to eat, Scottsdale belongs on your list. And look, whenever I go somewhere, my priority is on eating things that are the specialties of that region, eating things that I can't get at home. So when I'm in that area, I'm looking for the specialties of the region, like authentic Southwestern and Native American flavors, modern Mexican cuisine, and as basic as it sounds, homemade, fresh flour tortillas. There's nothing like it, and you can't get them like that in the Northeast. And there is such a farm-to-table culture in Scottsdale, inspired by the Sonoran Desert. Everything is so fresh, the peppers, the spices, it is so vibrant. And Scottsdale's just got a great vibe. It's one of those places where. Breakfast becomes brunch, happy hour turns into dinner, and every patio has another amazing view.

• 12:38Dan Pashman?

  And explore Old Town Scottsdale between meals, or relax at a spa after brunch. From award-winning and James Beard-recognized chefs to neighborhood gems and nationally acclaimed restaurants, every meal in Scottsdale tells a story. So come hungry and leave with new favorite restaurants. Start planning your next culinary getaway at experiencescottsdale.com. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now, Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking.

• 13:21Dan Pashman?

  Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners. Last year, right around this time, I got a new jacket from Quince, a lightweight fall jacket. And it has turned into my favorite jacket. And this is why you need a lightweight jacket, and probably a new one because it's time to freshen up your look. You need a lightweight jacket from Quince because the beauty of a lightweight jacket is you can wear it in the early fall, you can wear it in the early spring, but also it goes over a sweater, over a sweatshirt. And then suddenly, your lightweight jacket is a great accessory for pretty much the whole winter. Bottom line, when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on those everyday staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. They make elevated everyday essentials

• 14:05Dan Pashman?

  using premium materials and designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. So find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was this pork full. It's the best way to support the show.

• 14:39Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to A Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. Hey, if you're not already following The Sporkful in your podcasting app, what are you waiting for? In Apple Podcasts and Spotify, go to our show page and click Follow. In other apps, it might be like a plus sign, or a subscribe button, or a heart. Whatever it is in your podcasting app, please do that thing. It's the best way to ensure you'll never miss an episode, and it's good for our show. So please, go ahead and do it right now while you're listening. Thank you. Now, back to my tour of Monticello. I was joined by Monticello historian Nia Bates, historian and writer Michael Twitty, and Gail Jessup White, a direct descendant of Thomas Jefferson and of enslaved chef Peter Hemings, brother of James and Sally Hemings.

• 15:20Dan Pashman?

  In 1784, James Hemings had already spent time working in the kitchen of Monticello. Then President George Washington appointed Thomas Jefferson as Commerce Minister to France. Jefferson brought Hemings with him for the specific purpose of training in the art of French cuisine. James was 19 years old. As our tour moved from the first kitchen of Monticello to the second, I asked Nia about that time.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  James trains in France. He's training under a French chef. He's put into a world that he's never seen. You know, they're on the other side of the world. And while plantation culture is something to learn, like, French elitism is an entirely different world to step into.

• 16:00Dan Pashman?

  And he learned the French language, too.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, he learned to speak French. He learned to write, you know? You know, he's dealing with a lot of different things. As much as Jefferson stepped into a world that he was out of place in, imagine James, having grown up here in Virginia on this plantation. He traveled. I mean, he'd been to Richmond, to Williamsburg, to Philly, right? But Paris is a world-class city. And James would have had probably a network of people that he got to know while he was there. He's working not only in elite kitchen spaces, but also negotiating a world where there are free blacks. Where there's a movement even because slavery is illegal in France. And James was free while he was there.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  The only thing he would have had to do to claim that freedom is to petition a French court for it. Right? And Jefferson was aware of that. So he's navigating a space where it's like, I can be free, but I don't have any family here. Or I could go home and be a slave where all my family is, you know? Like, he's just in a very tough position.

• 17:00Dan Pashman?

  So it's like, he could have been free, but then it's like, where do you?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, where does a man like James Hemings go right ahead of the French Revolution?

• 17:08Dan Pashman?

  So Hemings continues his culinary training. After three years working under the most famous chefs in France, he becomes the chef de cuisine at Jefferson's private residence in Paris, which is America's first embassy. Hemings is cooking for aristocrats, diplomats, the most discerning palates in Europe. And it's here that he develops his signature style of cuisine, half French, half Virginian. In 1789, five years after going to Paris, Hemings and Jefferson return to the US.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  James is gaining all these skills and he brings them back here. And he negotiates his freedom with Jefferson in that moment. You know, when they arrive back in Philadelphia, James says, I want to be free. And Jefferson, of course, is like, well, I just spent all this money having you trained to be a chef and to make the food I want at my house in Monticello. And if I let you go, who's going to do that? So the agreement with James is that James has to train someone else if he wants his own freedom.

• 18:02Dan Pashman?

  So James Hemings comes with Jefferson back to Monticello, and he revolutionizes the kitchen there. He has a new stove built. You know how these days, rich people have these like, super fancy 20,000 BTU, six burner Viking ranges that cost who knows how much? James's new stove at Monticello is the 1790s equivalent of that. As our tour continued, we entered that second kitchen and saw the stove.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  The stew stoves is very French. The raised hearth is very German. And the open hearth is very English. So each of these cultures had its own unique way of preparing, cooking the food. That is because, because they have certain kinds of dishes they want.

• 18:45Dan Pashman?

  Before James Hemings goes to France, cooking at Monticello and most other plantations in the area was done in the English style, in a big pot over a wood fire. Once that fire's going, you don't have a lot of control over the heat. But as Michael explains, the French stove works with charcoal and it has metal grates on top. It almost looks like an old fashioned grill. So you can make those more delicate French sauces by banking the coals to one side. That way you get different parts of the stove at different temperatures. Those cooking grates can be raised or lowered, closer to or farther from the fire. You can set different pots in different areas, move things around.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  You can get really, really, really precise. Now, this is the more exciting story to me, is the description. Jefferson's table is half Virginian and half French in style with everything served in good taste and abundance. It's a very famous quote about the Hemings table. And what's spectacular about it is.

• 19:44Dan Pashman?

  That was, sorry, that was, it was some other sort of, some other, was it? Daniel Webster. Was it Daniel Webster?

• 19:49Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 19:50Dan Pashman?

  Daniel Webster, like in his diary or his journal or letter, said that of coming here to eat.

• 19:54Speaker 03

  Right. And so when we hear the words half Virginian, we know what the heck they mean by half Virginian. We know that they're talking about corn and siblings and, and green beans and squash and tomatoes and fresh field peas and peanuts and okra and watermelon and all the things that have come from black and brown people. But you take that and you give it this delicacy of French sauces and preparation and the light handed at pastry. And it becomes something totally different. You see, that's the thing about, that's why the black cook was so important.

• 20:29Dan Pashman?

  Is there a one specific dish that you can tell me about that's sort of like, this was sort of the, the way it was done before James went to France? And then how was it adapted when it became this sort of half Virginian, half French thing?

• 20:42Speaker 03

  I think the, I think the coolest example is always gonna be macaroni and cheese. You know, so the form is Italian and French, right? He made it very British, it's very custardy and very puddingly, right? But then there comes us, the spices, the little pop, the little whatever, the color, and also the fact that it's for us. The purpose is to serve food that's communally engaging. You know, our food is designed, it's not individualistic. It's so everybody can like dig in as a family, as a community, and eat well and celebrate each other. That's the heart of the West African aesthetic with food. So you add all those things together.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  And you think about it, we didn't have no macaroni and cheese in Africa. But it doesn't matter because we blackified that macaroni and cheese and made it taste 10 times better. And that's what we do.

• 21:38Dan Pashman?

  Gail, when I think about what a staple mac and cheese is across this entire country, I mean, like, mac and cheese is a bedrock food that children all over America grow up eating. You go to the supermarket and you see rows and rows of mac and cheese. What do you think James would make of that?

• 22:03Speaker 02

  I don't know what James would make of that. So I'm not going to say how James would feel about it. I'll say how I would feel about it. If it were to happen to me. And my mind would be blown. I would think it was wonderful. I would think I was a badass. Because guess what? James was a badass. So, yeah, I would be blown away by it.

• 22:35Dan Pashman?

  At the same time that James Hemings is doing all this incredible work with food at Monticello, he's also preparing to leave. As you heard, Jefferson said he wouldn't free Hemings until a replacement had been trained. So James trains his brother, Peter.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  So imagine this scenario, if you would. Two brothers, and the Hemings were close. And how do we know they were close? Because they named, their siblings named their children after each other. So there was a closeness with that family. So you think of these two brothers, they're probably close. One brother is to walk away in a couple of years, a free man. While the other brother is to remain enslaved until he's in his mid 50s, which then would have been an old man. Think of the exchange between them. Think of the sacrifice it must have felt like for one to be making for the other. Think of what James might have said to Peter.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  You know, this will put you in better stead with the master. So between the two of them, there must have been this swirl of emotions, maybe even some resentment, because one man was going to walk away and another man was going to stay. But ultimately, it was love. So I see those two men working together, knowing that this might be toward the end the last time they get to spend any extensive time together. And supporting each other for what might lie ahead. James, you're going to be okay. Peter, you're going to be okay.

• 24:19Dan Pashman?

  And so eventually Peter was trained and Jefferson freed James Hemings.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh, Jefferson, we have the, there's a manumission page. We know what was written in it. We know that, yes, he was freed. James was freed. Jefferson kept his word. Jefferson kept his word to Sally Hemings, James's, James Hemings's sister, that in fact, their children would be freed upon the age of 21.

• 24:48Dan Pashman?

  And what happened to James Hemings after he was freed?

• 24:51Speaker 02

  This would have been, what happened to James Hemings was a true tragedy. Apparently, he died from drinking. It's said in documents, he was working in Baltimore at a tavern, and it said that he committed suicide. He was only 36 years old. Well, think about this man. He couldn't live in a white world and feel safe. He couldn't be in a black world. He could have been re-enslaved, for that matter. Somebody might have captured him. You know, you lived in a perilous world when you were a black person. And we're assuming that he could have passed. We don't actually know that. That's an assumption we're making.

• 25:25Dan Pashman?

  Whether he could pass for white?

• 25:27Speaker 02

  We don't actually know that. He couldn't be with his family, really. He came back here to visit for a couple of months at one point. He traveled around the world, but he never really found his place. And in addition to that, he was free, but the people he loved most in the world were not. And these emotions, the strain, the stress of what James Hemings felt, really wasn't unusual for black people. They all felt, if they were free, they felt those constraints. They felt those dilemmas. They felt those losses.

• 26:11Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, we talk about what happened to Peter Hemings once he took over as head chef. Plus, how plantation tours have changed in recent years. That's after the break. Stick around.

• 26:22Speaker 04

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• 28:37Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back. Let's return now to Monticello.

• 28:44Dan Pashman?

  As for Peter Hemmings, after years as the head chef at Monticello, he became the plantation's master brewer. He was so good that Jefferson told his buddy James Madison, who lived down the road, "Hey, send your brewer to train here, my guy's really good." Actually, Jefferson wrote, quote, "Our malter and brewer is uncommonly intelligent and capable of giving instruction." When Jefferson died, most of his slaves were auctioned off on Monticello's lawn to pay off the family's debts. Peter Hemings was purchased by a relative and given his freedom. By then, he was in his late 50s. He lived into his mid-60s, working as a tailor in Charlottesville. Even after James and Peter Hemings stopped cooking at Monticello, the legacy continued

• 29:29Dan Pashman?

  for years through the enslaved chefs Edith Hearn Fawcett and Frances Gillette Hearn. And the food that all these chefs made over the years was known far and wide at the time as one of the highlights of a visit to Jefferson's Monticello.

• 29:44Dan Pashman?

  I have this perception of Jefferson as sort of the original, America's original fancy foodie.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:51Dan Pashman?

  Is that a fair characterization?

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say it's fair.

• 29:55Dan Pashman?

  What are some examples of that?

• 29:57Speaker 01

  I mean, so Jefferson is all about cultivation of taste, not just food, but also architecture and fashion. We've got historians here who study those things, but I think what's important about him is Jefferson considers himself a model for what other Americans should be, and that includes food, especially food. People came to visit Monticello all the time, and part of that experience was getting food that you would not get in Virginia. You know, like this half-Virginian, half-French cuisine is so important to people that at first they don't know how to handle it. When they come here to eat, they're like, what is this on this plate?

• 30:34Dan Pashman?

  You're saying it's so important to people?

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I'm saying it's so important, like food is so critical to the conversations that are happening at the table. I mean, the early American republic is almost entirely fueled by conversations that happened over dining tables. I think Jefferson is cognizant and aware that the things that he's putting on the table, and I also want to qualify that and say that the women in this house really determined the menu for the day. So it would have been Jefferson's daughter setting the meals for the guests. But, you know, the food that goes on the table here is important to the conversation as well. Jefferson would have been aware that this is not typical, that this is not what people are used to eating. We have lots of letters and evidence of people coming to Monticello, sitting down for dinner,

• 31:21Speaker 01

  and then being confused by what's on their plates and not knowing what to do with that. Jefferson, of course, is like, give it a chance. You'll really like this food. So that in some ways makes him a foodie, but also he's, Jefferson's got a scientific mind, and he's thinking of how to diversify crops here in the US. So throughout his travels in Europe, he's sending back seeds here that are later cultivated in the garden by Wormly Hughes. And that garden, that we call the retirement garden, is really an experimental place. Jefferson is trying to figure out what will survive. On the grounds here, you know, it's got like 56 different types of beans, over 300 trees in the orchard. I mean, just different varieties of different plants to see what is hardy, what can withstand winter, you know?

• 32:05Dan Pashman?

  So he was really committed to like nation building in a very practical way.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  In a very practical way that intersects with food.

• 32:17Dan Pashman?

  Despite the importance of food at Monticello, until a few years ago, this kitchen wasn't a standard part of the tour. In fact, you could easily have spent a day at the plantation without hearing much about slavery at all. Today, the lives of enslaved people are part of every tour. These kinds of changes are happening at a lot of former plantations. Whitney Plantation in Louisiana now focuses exclusively on the lives of enslaved people. Meanwhile, at George Washington's Mount Vernon, more information about the enslaved people there has been added to their tours in the last seven years or so. They've even created a database with biographies of each person. Matt Bryny, the VP of Media and Communications at Mount Vernon, wrote in an email that the new information about enslaved people, quote, "has generally been well received.

• 32:59Dan Pashman?

  I believe mostly because it's additive and hasn't distracted us from our main focus to talk about the life and achievements of George Washington."

• 33:08Dan Pashman?

  Online reviews of Monticello are overwhelmingly positive. And while they don't have hard data, Naya says anecdotally, more Black Americans than other people of color are visiting Monticello because of these efforts to tell a more complete story. But some white Americans are pushing back against these changes happening around the country. One visitor to a plantation in South Carolina complained in 2019 that she, quote, "didn't come to hear a lecture on how the white people treated slaves." Michael Twitty saw that comment and responded on his blog, quote, "I take my job seriously because frankly, you're not the one I'm centering. I'm performing an act of devotion to my ancestors." I asked Naya, the historian of Monticello, what she makes of the pushback.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  I find it kind of funny in a way that anyone believes that they can learn about the founding of our country and not learn about slavery, and further that they could learn about slavery but not learn about enslaved people, or that they can learn about any of those things and not see how it connects to our present. What I hope for our visitors is that they come here and they're able to connect with the experiences of the enslaved community, whether that's motherhood, whether that's work in the kitchen. I hope they see something that they're able to connect and identify with.

• 34:22Dan Pashman?

  For Gail Jessup White, coming to Monticello, where she works now, is much more personal. As I said to her, on one hand, her ancestors made incredible contributions to American history in these kitchens, contributions that you can see today in every supermarket in the country. But those accomplishments are inextricably tied to a pain that I can't begin to imagine. I asked Gail, "How do you process that?"

• 34:50Speaker 02

  How do I process the pain?

• 34:53Dan Pashman?

  And/or the contradiction?

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Well...

• 34:56Dan Pashman?

  Because there's the pain and the pride that you can't separate from each other.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Well, but here's what I remind myself when I think of these things, that the people who were enslaved here didn't think, wake up every day and go, "Oh, I'm a slave." They saw themselves as people who had lives and had families. It was hard, but do you think those people would have been able to keep going if they hadn't found some joy in their lives? Of course not. So, when I come to work every day, I think of them as fully-developed humans. I think of their pain, too, because there would have been a lot of pain. I think of their crying, I think of their laughing, I think of their playing games. Children here played games, we have artifacts.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  There were toys, there was a mouth harp. They were entertaining themselves. One should never think there was never laughter and there was never joy on a plantation. They had lives.

• 36:12Dan Pashman?

  If Thomas Jefferson saw the four of us here in this kitchen having this conversation, and in particular, me speaking with the three of you, what do you think he would think?

• 36:23Speaker 01

  You mean, you, a white guy, speaking with three black people in a plantation?

• 36:26Dan Pashman?

  Yes.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  I think, first of all, he'd probably think-

• 36:29Dan Pashman?

  And the three of you being the spokespeople for the Monticello-

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, he'd probably be like, "Who invited these people to come challenge me in my own place like this?" He'd probably also be wondering why there's no food in this kitchen currently. And I can't cook, so he wouldn't want that. But I think he really would be kind of appalled, honestly. I don't know that he ever envisioned a world where the three of us talking with you was a possibility. You know, that we've been educated in public and private schools, that we've gone to his uni- I went to his university, and I know he didn't envision that happening. You know, I think this is just not a space that he's even able to process, if I'm able to even imagine what Jefferson would think in this space, you know? I think, you know, he might actually be impressed that people are still here.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  That might be the only enduring legacy of his home that he actually considered, you know? In some ways, the entrance hall at Monticello was a museum, and he intended it to be as such. But it might surprise him to see, you know, I don't know how many people we're expecting today, probably somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 people coming to his house to talk about food. I don't know that he ever imagined that.

• 37:42Dan Pashman?

  French fries, ice cream, mac and cheese, meringue. All of these foods came to America through Monticello, which makes the enslaved chefs who lived and worked here our country's culinary founding fathers and mothers.

• 38:17Dan Pashman?

  That was Gail Jessup White, Community Engagement Officer at Monticello. When we recorded this episode, Nia Bates was the Public Historian of Slavery and African American Life at the Thomas Jefferson Foundation in Monticello. She's now a PhD candidate in History and African American Studies at Princeton. And Michael Twitty remains one of our nation's foremost food writers, culinary historians, and historical interpreters. His books are The Cooking Gene, Rice, and Kosher Soul: The Faith and Food Journey of an African American Jew. My thanks to Leslie Bradley and everyone at Monticello. The Heritage Harvest Festival was a really great event. I want to go back there and bring my whole family. I got so much from touring the grounds there and learning more about the enslaved people who lived there and about Thomas Jefferson. I highly recommend a visit to Monticello.

• 39:02Dan Pashman?

  This episode was originally produced by me, along with And Sandy. And

• 39:05Speaker 06

  Ngofen Putubwale.

• 39:07Dan Pashman?

  It was edited by Peter Clowney. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 39:10Speaker 07

  And this is Carrie Duggan. And Sarah Jamison. From Alexandria, Virginia. Reminding you to eat more. Eat better. And eat more better.

• 39:22Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me, along with managing producer

• 39:28Speaker 07

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 39:29Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app, all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful.

• 40:07Dan Pashman?

  Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman. Hey, it's Dan here. Thank you so much, first of all, for tuning into The Sporkful every week. We really appreciate it. And I want to let you know, if you want to hear new episodes ad-free, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts Plus on Apple Podcasts, or visit siriusxm.com/podcastsplus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. Thanks.