The Basement: Jeffrey Mishlove | Your Brain Doesn't Create Consciousness. It Filters It

Jeffrey Mishlove has spent 50 years at the intersection of science and the paranormal. He holds the only PhD in parapsychology ever awarded by an accredited American university, earned at UC Berkeley in 1980 — and successfully defended it in court when organized skeptics tried to have it revoked. He hosted the long-running television series Thinking Allowed, conducting over 1,500 interviews with the world's leading researchers in consciousness, mysticism, and the paranormal. He was embedded in the SRI research community during the Stargate era, working alongside Targ, Puthoff, and others operating under CIA funding. In 2021, he won first prize — unanimously — in Robert Bigelow's $500,000 competition for the best scientific case that consciousness survives death. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:00AJ Gentile?

  Today, we're sitting down with Jeffrey Mishlove. On Christmas Eve, 1985, Jeffrey got a phone call from a man named Ted Owens. Owens was a former assistant to J.B. Rhine at Duke University. He claimed to control the weather and summon UFOs on command.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, summon UFOs on command, eh? Must be nice. I'm still waiting for an Uber Eats I ordered last Tuesday.

• 1:23AJ Gentile?

  He told Jeffrey to call the US government and warn them not to send up the next space shuttle. His UFOs were gonna bring it down. And a month later, Challenger exploded. Now that's the kind of story you're gonna hear today. And Jeffrey spent 50 years as the most important interviewer in parapsychology. UC Berkeley gave him the only PhD in parapsychology ever awarded by an accredited American university. In 2021, he won first prize and $500,000 from the Bigelow Institute for the best scientific case that consciousness survives death.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a mill, eh? He's gonna find out the IRS also survives death. Taxes are death.

• 2:04AJ Gentile?

  This one got emotional. Let's go down to the basement.

• 2:14AJ Gentile?

  Jeffrey, welcome to the basement.

• 2:15Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:16AJ Gentile?

  I'm excited to have you here.

• 2:17Speaker 03

  It's a pleasure to be here.

• 2:19AJ Gentile?

  It's weird for me, because there's so much research goes into my episodes on my stupid show, and you constantly come up as a primary source. So, thank you for your contributions. This is like sitting in front of a cyclo- the encyclopedia. I don't even know where to start.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  Well, let me just say, it's very gratifying to me to know that I'm having that kind of an impact.

• 2:46AJ Gentile?

  Did you not realize that?

• 2:47Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:48AJ Gentile?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  I did not.

• 2:50AJ Gentile?

  When I told my audience you were coming in, they're blown away by it. No, you're- it's weird to be a living legend and not know it, I guess.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  Well, I know that there's a reputation, but I think you've built up a fabulous business here with a huge audience, and I had no idea that you even knew I existed.

• 3:11AJ Gentile?

  Oh, of course I did. My show is- I don't want to say silly and dismiss it, because the topics are important, but your work is actually important. You know, I'm trying to entertain people. Your work is really important in educating people. But I want to get to the bottom of some of that stuff. So, before we get too deep, I want to know your favorite, not the most famous, not the most well-reviewed, your favorite character that your mother ever played on stage.

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Blanche Dubois.

• 3:46AJ Gentile?

  Streetcar?

• 3:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:48AJ Gentile?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 3:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, it changed her life completely. She- my mother was an actress in local community theater, and good, I imagine she could have had a career on Broadway if she hadn't married my father and moved from the east coast to Wisconsin. So, she was very active in local community theater, and Blanche Dubois, the female character in Streetcar Named Desire, possessed her. It was as if-

• 4:19Speaker 03

  She was a different person a- after that. She became Blanche Dubois. I have always depended on kindness of strangers.

• 4:29AJ Gentile?

  That's right. Was she like that with all of her roles? Would she just inhabit that character?

• 4:33Speaker 03

  That particular character, it's as if the spirit of Blanche Dubois entered into my mother.

• 4:42AJ Gentile?

  What do you think that is? Cause that's, there's kind of a darkness to that, to that story a little bit.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  Well, you could say that, but it probably reveals a lot about the, the human psyche in general. There, we're so much larger than we think we are and we're so much more interconnected than, than we think we are. And I think our consciousness just bubbles up with possibilities. And Blanche Dubois was in my mother all along. It just sort of bubbled up.

• 5:11AJ Gentile?

  Right. I hadn't considered that, that we're all connected, that, that's, that could be a way that, that actors, good actors are channeling characters is our connection.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  I, I think there is an element of channeling that goes into theater. Yeah.

• 5:26AJ Gentile?

  So dad was in the army, mom was an actress. What was life like for little Jeffrey? Did you travel around?

• 5:32Speaker 03

  Well, no, my father was out of the army by the, I was born in 1946. The war was over. My dad had came home. I was part of the baby boom generation right after the war. And I grew up in the 1950s and it was sort of like Norman Rockwell's America. Everything seemed good and healthy and normal. And for example, in that era, you didn't ever see a man wearing a beard. All the men were clean shaven everywhere. If someone had a beard, you'd say, oh, that's from the last century. And, and all the boys, young

• 6:16Speaker 03

  boys had crew cuts. So.

• 6:20AJ Gentile?

  No beard, hats?

• 6:21Speaker 03

  No, none of, none of that. No, no drugs. I never heard of marijuana or cannabis until I was mutt in college. It was, it was a, a time of absolute innocence. And I grew up in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, which later became.

• 6:41Speaker 03

  Designated as the safest city in America.

• 6:44AJ Gentile?

  Really?

• 6:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:45AJ Gentile?

  What I, people who grew up during that time, like my parents, all say the same thing, Norman Rockwell. Do you think it was really like that everywhere?

• 6:54Speaker 03

  No.

• 6:55AJ Gentile?

  So what, what, because there, I feel like there was an undercurrent during the 50s that, that wasn't quite so public.

• 7:02Speaker 03

  Well, if, for example, in Fond du Lac, where I grew up, a town of 30,000 people, I think, um, there were no black families at all. It was all white, 100%. And, uh, maybe occasionally there, after I left, there might be one or two black families coming into town. Um, so I, I didn't even know black people existed.

• 7:28AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 7:28Speaker 03

  Uh, until, uh, I went to see, watch the Milwaukee Braves play.

• 7:34AJ Gentile?

  Well, I'm glad you said that because it really wasn't Norman Rockwell for everybody.

• 7:39Speaker 03

  No.

• 7:40AJ Gentile?

  But that's, but that's the history that I think we like to remember.

• 7:43Speaker 03

  It, it, what Fond du Lac was completely a Norman Rockwell kind of town.

• 7:50AJ Gentile?

  So going into sociology, I, everyone knows you as the parapsychology guy, but.

• 7:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:54AJ Gentile?

  So sociology and then criminology.

• 7:57Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 7:57AJ Gentile?

  What attracted you to criminology?

• 8:00Speaker 03

  Well, the truth is, I wanted to get admitted to Berkeley. I.

• 8:06AJ Gentile?

  Just Berkeley? It didn't matter why?

• 8:08Speaker 03

  I, as soon as I graduated from, uh, college in Madison, Wisconsin, with a BA in psychology, I got a job in Rockford, Illinois, at a mental health program, the Singer Mental Health Zone Center, which prided itself on being 10 years ahead of the times, which for me wasn't enough. I quit after six weeks and got in my car and made a beeline to San Francisco.

• 8:35AJ Gentile?

  Why did you, what was going on at the mental health facility that made you quit so quickly?

• 8:39Speaker 03

  Behaviorism.

• 8:41AJ Gentile?

  Behaviorism from the doctors.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  That was, that was the philosophy of the time. The behaviorist model of human behavior and psychology was dominated by B.F. Skinner and behaviorism and they had, for example, a big computer in the basement of this facility and every time I interacted with a patient, I had to fill out a computer form and they were going to keep track of it and I thought to myself, they're, they're missing everything here. For example, when I was with some of the patients, I did some simple experiments. I had read about the Esalen Institute and a guy named Bernie Gunther, who talked about

• 9:26Speaker 03

  awakening the senses and I had people, like I'd just say, tap your head, you know, use your fingers, experience the feeling of, of what it's like. And there was a woman who hadn't spoken in 20 years and started talking after that and I realized that the facility where I was had no concept of human depth.

• 9:53AJ Gentile?

  Did the other professionals there think you were straight? Cause you mentioned tapping, that's a real thing now.

• 9:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:59AJ Gentile?

  Did they think, like, why is this guy making them hit themselves on the head? What does he did, were they?

• 10:04Speaker 03

  I, I don't think I fit in there very well, for whatever reason. I, I was destined to do something different with my life.

• 10:13AJ Gentile?

  I think we're going to see that as a thread is when you land into an institution, it doesn't work for you. I think we're going to see that.

• 10:21Speaker 03

  You know, it, it's really true. In fact, every time I was at a university, University of Wisconsin or even Berkeley, which was much more attuned with my way of thinking, my favorite professors would get fired or would leave.

• 10:38AJ Gentile?

  Because they were just too outside the mainstream?

• 10:41Speaker 03

  And I'll give you another example.

• 10:44AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 10:45Speaker 03

  After years of struggle, as you mentioned, I achieved a doctoral degree, a unique, individual, interdisciplinary doctoral degree in parapsychology, the only one ever awarded to this day, 40 years later.

• 11:01AJ Gentile?

  And what's the quick definition of parapsychology?

• 11:03Speaker 03

  Parapsychology is the scientific study of extrasensory perception and psychokinesis and the possibility of human survival after death.

• 11:14AJ Gentile?

  Mainstream doesn't like this.

• 11:16Speaker 03

  No. And, but the point is that I want to make, just in the context of this conversation, I got the degree and I went to see my mentor at the time. I was so proud. My committee had just finalized everything. So I went to visit Arthur Young, who was a 70-year-old man at the time, or in his 70s.

• 11:42AJ Gentile?

  The Bell Helicopter Arthur?

• 11:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 11:44AJ Gentile?

  Was your mentor?

• 11:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 11:46AJ Gentile?

  Okay. This, this is going to get interesting.

• 11:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. Arthur was an amazing guy and, and I have talked about him forever. He pulled out an astrology ephemeris and started looking at my chart. And he said to me, "How long did you work on this degree?" And I said, "It's been about six years, little over six years since I entered the doctoral program that I created for myself in parapsychology." And he looked at me and he said, "Well, it's going to take you six years more to undo all the damage the university has done to you."

• 12:27AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 12:29AJ Gentile?

  So he saw that in you?

• 12:31Speaker 03

  Not just me.

• 12:32AJ Gentile?

  Well, how do you create a PhD?

• 12:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:36AJ Gentile?

  Because it's accredited and you had to fight for that, didn't you?

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Well, there was a program at Berkeley whereby if you're already a graduate student in good standing, you want to do a dissertation on a topic where you can't find three professors in your department who will sponsor you, but you can find three professors in a variety of different departments who will sponsor you, you can create your own program. And I took advantage of that very obscure rule. After I graduated from Berkeley, they canceled the whole thing.

• 13:14AJ Gentile?

  Oh, you can't do that anymore?

• 13:16Speaker 03

  They just reinstated it a few years ago.

• 13:19AJ Gentile?

  Okay. What was your dissertation about?

• 13:22Speaker 03

  Training ESP abilities.

• 13:25AJ Gentile?

  Wow, and so you got sponsors for that?

• 13:27Speaker 03

  Faculty.

• 13:28AJ Gentile?

  Faculty sponsored that?

• 13:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:30AJ Gentile?

  That's amazing. And I think it's interesting that there was, didn't they try to take that away from you and you fought?

• 13:39Speaker 03

  Well, there were organized skeptics, there still are.

• 13:43AJ Gentile?

  Oh, yes.

• 13:44Speaker 03

  Organized skeptics who were offended by the very idea that a major school, Berkeley's one of the best in the world, would grant a degree in parapsychology. This horrified them because they see it as the rising tide of superstition.

• 14:03AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 14:04Speaker 03

  And so they put pressure on the university to cancel the degree after it had already been awarded. And the pressure was quite significant. The university tried to do that. I had to...

• 14:22Speaker 03

  I had to pull some strings. Fortunately, I had, you know, some support from people who believed in what I was doing. And those people failed in their effort to get the university to undo my degree. But it put me through hell at the time.

• 14:40AJ Gentile?

  Of course, and your doctorate stands.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:44AJ Gentile?

  So, um, criminology.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:48AJ Gentile?

  Take us back, what attracts you to criminals? You go from mental health to now criminals. I mean, are we talking serious?

• 14:54Speaker 03

  Well, as I say, I moved to Berkeley, California.

• 14:57AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  To the Bay Area. And I wanted to enroll at Berkeley. And I had studied when I was at Wisconsin with Seymour Halleck, who was a psychiatrist and who specialized in criminology. So, and I knew frankly that I could get in to criminology. There were openings in the School of Criminology at Berkeley. Psychology, they accepted, I think, 20 students every year and they had like thousands of applicants. And even though I had a good grade point and so on, it was, I didn't know that I would get admitted, but I knew I could be admitted in criminology.

• 15:43Speaker 03

  So I went for that because they had a psychology track. I was interested in clinical work and I could do that in the School of Criminology. And so if you had known me in 1972, for example, you would have seen me doing volunteer work at San Quentin Prison in the psychiatric unit, conducting group therapy sessions with murderers and rapists.

• 16:10AJ Gentile?

  What were they like as people?

• 16:13Speaker 03

  You know, that's the interesting thing. I thought they were pretty much just like you and me.

• 16:19AJ Gentile?

  That's very interesting.

• 16:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:21AJ Gentile?

  That, that makes me think that everyone maybe has a certain trigger, or there's something in everybody.

• 16:27Speaker 03

  We, we all have a little larceny in our hearts.

• 16:30AJ Gentile?

  Yes, we do.

• 16:31Speaker 03

  You, you might say. It's part, I, I, cause I'm pretty convinced, you know, that the whole human population shares a, a collective consciousness.

• 16:41AJ Gentile?

  I agree, I agree.

• 16:42Speaker 03

  There's, there's nothing that any criminal has ever done that hasn't affected me and isn't in some way part of me.

• 16:50AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 16:50Speaker 03

  But I can tell you that the, uh, staff in the prison didn't see it that way.

• 16:56AJ Gentile?

  I bet not. Did you also have a, a, a unique approach to therapy when you were speaking with the?

• 17:02Speaker 03

  Well, I was a young kid at the time. I, I can't say I was experienced, although I will tell you that young and experienced college students are very good therapists.

• 17:13AJ Gentile?

  I bet they are.

• 17:14Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 17:14AJ Gentile?

  Because you're not, you're not so hardwired yet.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:17AJ Gentile?

  You're still kind of exploring new things.

• 17:18Speaker 03

  You're willing to listen.

• 17:20AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 17:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:21AJ Gentile?

  Did, did you make a difference in any of those people's lives, those criminals?

• 17:29Speaker 03

  I can't say for sure. I, I, none of them, I, I didn't do any follow-up with them. And, uh, so I don't know.

• 17:39AJ Gentile?

  Did you feel like, oh God?

• 17:41Speaker 03

  I think they made a difference in my life.

• 17:44AJ Gentile?

  That's interesting.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:45AJ Gentile?

  What did they contribute to that?

• 17:46Speaker 03

  They contributed a, a sense of, uh, humanity, of understanding what it meant to be human, what, uh, something about myself ultimately.

• 17:59AJ Gentile?

  Did that surprise you?

• 18:01Speaker 03

  It felt natural. It did. I can't say it surprised me.

• 18:06AJ Gentile?

  Cause a lot of people would be frightened to be in that situation with those people.

• 18:10Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:11AJ Gentile?

  But you feel like that experience enriched your life in a way?

• 18:15Speaker 03

  I, yeah, I, I would say the guards were more frightening than the inmates.

• 18:21AJ Gentile?

  Okay, fair enough. They probably weren't as empathetic as you were.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  And, and you would, you know, they were always hovering around to make sure I was safe.

• 18:31AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  But, but they, they kept a sort of a menacing demeanor on, on their, if you look at them, there would be, they'd be scowling and, uh, Perhaps things have changed since then, but the general attitude was that these inmates aren't quite human.

• 18:50AJ Gentile?

  So, those guards didn't feel like we shared a consciousness at all, or anything with these people?

• 18:56Speaker 03

  Not only the guards, but, you know, my supervisors in the psychiatric unit. You'd hear expressions like, "They're a different kind of cat." They're just not like us.

• 19:07AJ Gentile?

  That's, um, that's a casual way of dehumanizing somebody.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:13AJ Gentile?

  That really is.

• 19:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:15AJ Gentile?

  Is that what made you leave criminology?

• 19:17Speaker 03

  No. No, I would've stuck it out, but for the fact that I had the most powerful mystical, psychic, paranormal event of my life at that time.

• 19:33AJ Gentile?

  Did you, were you a believer in parapsychology?

• 19:35Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 19:36AJ Gentile?

  You were?

• 19:37Speaker 03

  From, as an undergraduate even, I was, I did a senior honors thesis, the University of Wisconsin, as an undergraduate on the psychology of religious mysticism. And I went into it, to be honest, as a skeptic. I thought, "These people who claim to be religious mystics, whatever that is, it's undoubtedly a form of psychopathology, and I'm going to, that's what I'll write about. That'll, I'll talk about the psychopathologies that make people believe they're having psychic and mystical experiences."

• 20:17Speaker 03

  And I started digging into the literature, and the more I dug into the literature, the more I became convinced that it was just the opposite, that these people were some of the most creative, successful people on the planet. And at that point, I would, and I became aware of the research of J.B. Rhine, and parapsychology, and the studies of life after death, going back to the 1880s, and so, and at the same time, in my senior year as an undergraduate, I was exposed to LSD and...

• 21:00Speaker 03

  The whole psychedelic scene that was burgeoning at that time on college campuses and it all fit together for me very naturally that LSD was a tool for exploring your own mind and that these mystical experiences were quite real and you could have a taste of it, you know, from drugs, but then in 1972 I had a full-blown experience.

• 21:37AJ Gentile?

  Before we get to that, academia seems very comfortable with religious studies but uncomfortable with parapsychology, but there seems to be a lot of overlap in those fields.

• 21:45Speaker 03

  There is an enormous overlap with, also with what is now called transpersonal psychology, which pretty much didn't exist back when I was studying as an undergraduate, but...

• 22:01Speaker 00

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet. Like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 22:31Speaker 03

  Most scholars in the field of religious studies, I'm told, are really atheists and skeptics.

• 22:39AJ Gentile?

  Really?

• 22:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. There are a handful who take it seriously and I got to know Huston Smith very well, the author of The World's Religions, who was deeply involved in the mystical core of all religions. But for the most part, the scholars of religion were, and I think even today, were under the influence of what was in those days called, you know, Marxist materialism. Later on, became known as deconstructionism and postmodernism. But they were, they saw religions basically as...

• 23:21Speaker 03

  Power trips as a way to manipulate people and to control society.

• 23:27AJ Gentile?

  That is an interesting take that I hadn't considered.

• 23:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:30AJ Gentile?

  But religion is a tool to do that.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  Yes, it is.

• 23:34AJ Gentile?

  It is. Not to dismiss any religious people, but it certainly has that.

• 23:38Speaker 03

  There's that side of it.

• 23:40AJ Gentile?

  There certainly is.

• 23:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:42AJ Gentile?

  So, your experience, your, it was your first paranormal experience was life-changing?

• 23:49Speaker 03

  I don't know if it was my first paranormal experience, but it was life-changing, there's no question.

• 23:56AJ Gentile?

  So, this is the dream?

• 23:57Speaker 03

  It's a dream.

• 23:58AJ Gentile?

  But you had an experience before the dream, possibly?

• 24:02Speaker 03

  Well, I was doing ESP experiments and things like.

• 24:08AJ Gentile?

  Where?

• 24:08Speaker 03

  As an undergraduate in Wisconsin in my, in my experimental psychology class. It's a matter of that.

• 24:17AJ Gentile?

  On what? On other, on like undergrads coming?

• 24:20Speaker 03

  Well, it was informal. You know, I'd take a deck of playing cards and hold it up and I'd have my girlfriend try to guess what the cards were and, you know, the results were interesting, but.

• 24:34AJ Gentile?

  Did they base Dr. Peter Venkman in Ghostbusters on you? When you saw that, you must have been like.

• 24:40Speaker 03

  Electrified.

• 24:41AJ Gentile?

  Right, right.

• 24:42Speaker 03

  Well, when I first saw Ghostbusters, I did think, my goodness, they've made the movie about me.

• 24:47AJ Gentile?

  Right. That's what it seems like with the cards. They all, they were all doctors.

• 24:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was a funny movie.

• 24:55AJ Gentile?

  It was.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Came out. It was hilarious.

• 24:58AJ Gentile?

  So, the dream, tell me about the day leading up to the dream. What was going on in your life that? Because people have these experiences, often they're primed for it and maybe don't realize until after the fact.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  Well, yes, I was primed for it. I, in fact, as an undergraduate, I, in what they called the Free University in Wisconsin, I offered a course on religious mysticism. I was teaching it as an undergraduate. But by the time I was a graduate student in criminology, I kind of put all that behind me. And, and I can't say that I was primed at all. At that moment, I didn't know. But 2,000 miles away, I'm in Berkeley, California, waking up from the most powerful dream of my life. It's 7:30 in the morning.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  In Wisconsin, at 9:30 in the morning, my great uncle Harry, who was about 85 years old, had died at that moment. And as best I can piece it together, he came to me, he visited me, and took me along partway for the ride.

• 26:10AJ Gentile?

  Well, what was the dream about? Take us through that.

• 26:13Speaker 03

  Well...

• 26:14AJ Gentile?

  Because this is not a unique story.

• 26:15Speaker 03

  I cannot put it into words very well. It's beyond description. It's what they say, it's ineffable.

• 26:24AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 26:25Speaker 03

  The classic mystical experiences. What I can tell you is that Uncle Harry came to me in the dream, and we had a deep conversation. He disagreed with some of the ways I was living my life.

• 26:43AJ Gentile?

  What was some of the dialogue in that dream with Harry?

• 26:45Speaker 03

  Well, the dialogue, in retrospect, is trivial. The dialogue was, he's telling me that you treat your girlfriends like they're your equal.

• 26:58AJ Gentile?

  Was Harry like that in real life?

• 27:01Speaker 03

  Well, all I can say is he had four wives.

• 27:04AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  And not at the same time.

• 27:07AJ Gentile?

  Right, right.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  He wasn't a Mormon. He, and I don't think he treated women as an equal. He was a very religious man, highly Orthodox Jew, the president of the local Orthodox Jewish congregation in Sheboygan, Wisconsin. And so that was part of it. And I'm saying, no, women are equal. And we discussed the yin yang symbol, which has become my logo, and...

• 27:39AJ Gentile?

  Comes out of that dream?

• 27:41Speaker 03

  Yes, in part.

• 27:42AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 27:43Speaker 03

  And, but the thing is, when I awoke from that dream, I was sobbing, tears of joy.

• 27:53AJ Gentile?

  Of joy?

• 27:54Speaker 03

  Of joy.

• 27:55AJ Gentile?

  Did you know he had died?

• 27:56Speaker 03

  No. I had no idea he had died.

• 27:58AJ Gentile?

  What was so joyous about that message?

• 28:00Speaker 03

  Not only was I... I can't put it into words. It's as if he took me into heaven.

• 28:08AJ Gentile?

  That's what it was.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  Also, I was singing.

• 28:15AJ Gentile?

  You woke up singing?

• 28:17Speaker 03

  I woke up singing and crying, and the song I was singing, for any of your viewers who were Jewish, was "Avinu Malkenu", which is a song that is only sung in the Jewish liturgy, in what we call the High Holy Holidays, and it's some of the most poignant spiritual moments of the religious service. And they sing "Avinu Malkenu", "Our Father, our King", it's a prayer to God to forgive us.

• 28:49AJ Gentile?

  I was gonna ask you about that, what that song is about and when it's sung.

• 28:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:54AJ Gentile?

  It's about forgiveness?

• 28:55Speaker 03

  It's about forgiveness. It's about asking God to forgive us for our sins.

• 29:00AJ Gentile?

  Why that song, do you think?

• 29:03Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 29:04AJ Gentile?

  When you woke up, you don't know why you were singing that song?

• 29:06Speaker 03

  No, I don't. But it was like coming out of my heart. And I'd been so deeply touched. And I didn't know that Uncle Harry had died. I didn't know where I had been. I didn't know why I woke up from a dream singing and crying like that. But I can never forget the experience. And even though I can't put it into words and make it intelligible, it was at that moment that I realized, or shortly thereafter as I'm digesting all of this, that I can no longer pursue a career

• 29:48Speaker 03

  studying the negative side of human deviance. That I had to move away from psychopathology and crime and start focusing on the positive side of human deviance.

• 30:03AJ Gentile?

  It's interesting that you were working with criminals and woke up singing about forgiveness.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:08AJ Gentile?

  That's very interesting to me. Who was your first phone call?

• 30:13Speaker 03

  Well, I wrote home immediately to my parents and said, "How's Uncle Harry? I had a dream about him." And my mother called as soon as she got the letter and said, "How did you know that Uncle Harry had just died?" And so I, I said, "Well, I didn't know." And could they arrange for me to have an object that Uncle Harry owned so I can keep it and to remember him by?" They sent me a book, a little book. And they told me, "This is Uncle Harry's favorite book."

• 30:54AJ Gentile?

  What was it?

• 30:54Speaker 03

  It was, it took me a while to figure it out because it was written in Hebrew.

• 30:59AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 31:00Speaker 03

  And I later learned, actually, it was in Yiddish, which is a German Jewish slang language.

• 31:08AJ Gentile?

  I'm from New York City. I know you. I know what it is.

• 31:11Speaker 03

  So Yiddish, I had to get it translated and, and it's the Tales of the Baal Shem Tov, who was a mystical teacher of the Jewish Hasidic sect going back to the 18th century.

• 31:26AJ Gentile?

  Did your mother know you were into mysticism, that she chose that book? These are a lot of synchronicities.

• 31:34Speaker 03

  No, no, I had no idea that my Uncle Harry was into mysticism or that anybody in, that I knew, any Jewish person, had anything to do with mysticism because in that era, Jewish people wanted to fit in. They wanted to be like considered normal Americans, not some kind of weird cult-like people. Now they don't mind so much, but...

• 32:00AJ Gentile?

  Again, that's very strange to hear because I'm from New York, so Jewish is very much part of our local culture, and my family, so it's very part of our culture. It's always strange to hear like friends talk about. I never met a Jewish person until I was 30 years old. It's strange to me.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:15AJ Gentile?

  It's a very different country.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:19AJ Gentile?

  You decided after the dream you had to make a change or after the book?

• 32:23Speaker 03

  After the dream. Well, around that time, it all happened, you know, within a few weeks. And it took me months to figure out how to make this shift because I assumed, well, I could shift into a graduate program on creativity or intuition or mysticism, but they didn't exist. So I agonized about it for many, many months.

• 32:50AJ Gentile?

  Still working at, in criminology?

• 32:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 32:54AJ Gentile?

  You had to be completely distracted by then, no?

• 32:57Speaker 03

  I suppose. I suppose I was, but I was, you know, still showing up at the psychiatric unit in San Quentin Prison and taking my courses and doing well. I got a master's degree in criminology and eventually what happened was kind of interesting. Agony and agony and agony. I was a stressed out, unhappy person after that beautiful mystical experience because I knew I had to change my life. And I think that happens a lot for people who have near-death experiences. And what I had today, we would call a shared death experience.

• 33:41AJ Gentile?

  Yes, we would. I just did an episode on that. It's a very real phenomenon.

• 33:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:45AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. And you had a remote shared death experience, which I believe is the most common kind. 60% of people who have those experiences are far, far away from that person.

• 33:56Speaker 03

  Because it was, you could also call it a visitation.

• 33:59AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 33:59Speaker 03

  Uncle Harry came to me. I didn't go to him. I didn't know he was dying.

• 34:04AJ Gentile?

  No, but he knew that you needed him. Did he visit anyone else? I'm touched by this story.

• 34:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:11AJ Gentile?

  Did he, did he visit anyone else?

• 34:14Speaker 03

  Uh, you know, I think so. I, I'm pretty sure there were, there were some cousins who had some experiences along those lines.

• 34:22AJ Gentile?

  I wonder if he was telling everyone to make some changes? Is that how Harry, Harry was opinionated?

• 34:28Speaker 03

  No, I don't remember him that way. I, here's what I remember about Uncle Harry is he, he ran a corner grocery store in Chauvin, Wisconsin. And I'd be a young kid, eight, nine, 10 years old, and my father was very fond of him and we'd often visit. And when we came to visit him, he'd, he lived in an apartment behind the grocery store. He'd go into the freezer where they had Eskimo pies, and he'd pull out Eskimo pies and hand them to all the kids. And I thought to myself, look, he's got a whole freezer full of Eskimo pies to, to a young child. That's wealth.

• 35:12AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  And so,

• 35:17Speaker 03

  I told this story once to a rabbi I was friendly with, Zalman Shaktar, a mystical rabbi. And he said to me, well, your Uncle Harry had one more Eskimo pie for you.

• 35:28AJ Gentile?

  Oh, that's lovely.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:30AJ Gentile?

  He did.

• 35:34AJ Gentile?

  That sounds like it must've been very difficult, those months.

• 35:38Speaker 03

  They were. They, they were very difficult. But one morning, I woke up and I knew, beyond a doubt, that I was going to have a dream that evening. And the answer to this whole search of how to reorient my life was going to come in a dream.

• 35:59AJ Gentile?

  So everything is chaotic then, and then,

• 36:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:02AJ Gentile?

  And you felt like, tonight is the night I-

• 36:03Speaker 03

  Tonight is the night, the dream is going to come, and the answer will be there.

• 36:08AJ Gentile?

  And-

• 36:08Speaker 03

  It was just a knowing.

• 36:10AJ Gentile?

  And it happened.

• 36:11Speaker 03

  And it happened.

• 36:12AJ Gentile?

  What was that dream about?

• 36:13Speaker 03

  In that dream-

• 36:16Speaker 03

  I was visiting-

• 36:17AJ Gentile?

  I didn't expect to cry this soon, Jeffrey, but that's, it's a good story.

• 36:21Speaker 03

  I had good friends in Berkeley who I used to live with, who were in married student housing at the time. And in the dream, I was visiting Peter and Marcy Hartman in married student housing. I knocked on the door of their apartment, and there was no answer. And in the dream, I found a key, let myself into their apartment, walked into the living room and found in the middle of the living room floor, a magazine called I E Y E. I picked up the magazine, began paging through it, and then I woke up with this feeling

• 37:03Speaker 03

  of exhilaration, like, I have the answer!

• 37:07AJ Gentile?

  What was in the magazine?

• 37:08Speaker 03

  Well, I didn't know.

• 37:10AJ Gentile?

  You didn't know?

• 37:12Speaker 03

  So I acted out the dream. I figured, I've got to find that magazine.

• 37:16AJ Gentile?

  Yeah!

• 37:17Speaker 03

  So I put on my tennis shoes, ran across town, five miles from where I lived, to his married student housing in Albany, California, and knocked on the door of the apartment.

• 37:32AJ Gentile?

  What are you thinking during that run? Is it elation? Is it relief?

• 37:35Speaker 03

  It was elation.

• 37:37AJ Gentile?

  It was. You knew?

• 37:39Speaker 03

  I just knew. I'm going to find the answer. I have to go to this apartment. And they weren't home, as I had dreamt. It turned out, I did know exactly where they hid a key. They were good friends. So I took it, and I let myself into their apartment, walked into the living room, and smack dab in the middle of the living room floor, exactly as I had dreamt, there was this magazine, sitting sprawled, you know, pages open.

• 38:11AJ Gentile?

  I magazine?

• 38:12Speaker 03

  It was called Focus.

• 38:15AJ Gentile?

  Oh!

• 38:17Speaker 03

  And Focus was the magazine of KQED, which was listener-sponsored radio and television in the San Francisco Bay Area. And as I'm paging through this magazine, it dawned on me, for the first time in my life, I could pursue my interests by getting involved in the nonprofit segment of the media.

• 38:41AJ Gentile?

  When you got into that apartment, did you know that magazine was gonna be there?

• 38:45Speaker 03

  No.

• 38:46AJ Gentile?

  You weren't confident, you weren't, because everything was lining up.

• 38:49Speaker 03

  Well, everything was lining up, but I hadn't, I had no way of knowing.

• 38:54AJ Gentile?

  Well, then, when you saw it, you had to go, "Oh, my goodness."

• 38:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:00AJ Gentile?

  So, you have to follow where this leads.

• 39:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:03AJ Gentile?

  Okay, so the magazine, focus is there.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 39:06AJ Gentile?

  It's...

• 39:06Speaker 03

  It brought focus into my life.

• 39:08AJ Gentile?

  Yes, it's all very clear.

• 39:10Speaker 03

  But because I lived in Berkeley, I didn't have a car in those days, I don't think.

• 39:19Speaker 03

  No, I did not have a car. I went to KPFA, which is a Pacifica radio station in Berkeley, actually, very well-known nonprofit radio, and at the time, I had my master's degree, and I said to them, "I'd like to volunteer." And they said, "Sure, sit at this desk, and when you hear the doorbell ring, push this button and let people in the front door."

• 39:47AJ Gentile?

  That's it?

• 39:48Speaker 03

  That's how it started, and I was glad to do it.

• 39:51AJ Gentile?

  Yes, because, I mean, you're, this is a mission now.

• 39:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:54AJ Gentile?

  You're on a mission.

• 39:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:55AJ Gentile?

  So...

• 39:56Speaker 03

  Within two, three weeks, I had learned how to produce a radio program, and I produced my first program, which was interviewing local friends of mine in Berkeley, who were psychic, and the theme was, "You don't have to be from out of town to be psychic."

• 40:17AJ Gentile?

  How did they, did they let you create your own show?

• 40:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, they let me, they showed me how, and they broadcast it, and after it was released, the program director came to me and said, "I was only at the station for three weeks," and he said, "We have an opening every Tuesday and Thursday at noon for a program, a regular program, we call it the Mind's Ear, and it's an interview program, and you'll sit, just as you and I are now, across the table from each other, with world-class experts in all the topics that interested me the most."

• 40:56AJ Gentile?

  How long from that dream of the magazine to that show, how much time passes?

• 41:02Speaker 03

  Maybe six weeks at the most.

• 41:04AJ Gentile?

  Six weeks?

• 41:05Speaker 03

  Well, let me think, the dream of the magazine...

• 41:10Speaker 04

  Hello, I'm Chris Richards, General Manager at Safran Volkswagen Richmond. I'm here to announce an exciting new program that I want you to listen to. Here's my friend Happy.

• 41:18Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Happy Harry Turner, Special Finance Manager at SafranCredit.com. If you're in an open Chapter 13 bankruptcy, recently filed a Chapter 7, or you've been turned down because of credit challenges, don't give up. For nearly 30 years, I've helped people get reliable transportation when others said no. Visit SafranCredit.com. Remember, I'm not happy unless you are.

• 41:37Speaker 03

  No, maybe even three weeks. Somewhere just a few weeks.

• 41:45AJ Gentile?

  You must be just coasting now on this feeling of this is meant to be because you're just, I come from radio. I didn't get my own show in three weeks. It took a little longer than that.

• 41:56Speaker 03

  Well, of course, KPFA was staffed by all volunteers. So there I was, a volunteer who seemed to know something about psychology. I was a kid, I was 25 years old at the time, and that gave me the confidence to go back to the university where they offered no courses or programs in the topics that I was interested in, but I did come to meet some professors who were supportive. And I said, I want to, you know, create this interdisciplinary program. Would you sponsor it and be on my academic committee?

• 42:36Speaker 03

  And I already had access to people like Robert Monroe, who was writing his first book on out-of-body experiences. And, you know, everyone on a book tour coming through the San Francisco Bay Area would want to stop at KPFA.

• 42:53AJ Gentile?

  What year is that?

• 42:55Speaker 03

  1972.

• 42:57AJ Gentile?

  So Robert Monroe, I mean, there's a lot of great characters coming through San Francisco Bay Area during that time.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  The 1970s in San Francisco Bay Area, I think of it as the psychic 70s. It was an amazing time.

• 43:11AJ Gentile?

  So Robert Monroe, I've covered him quite a bit, Hemisync and...

• 43:17AJ Gentile?

  Was he able to achieve out of body on command using Hemisync?

• 43:23Speaker 03

  I can't say that for sure. I did go through the program. I didn't have an out of body experience.

• 43:30AJ Gentile?

  Same, I didn't either. What about the Gateway Project at Monroe Institute? That was, I think, one of his last projects.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Yes, well, I certainly know Monroe trainers and people who have been through the program. And I think it's fair to say that a significant percentage of people found it worked very well for them.

• 43:52AJ Gentile?

  So Monroe trainers is an interesting segue because quite a few of those Monroe trainers come from SRI and Project Stargate. It was happening about the same time, yes.

• 44:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, after Stargate closed down.

• 44:09AJ Gentile?

  Right, I'm talking like Skip Atwater went over to Monroe. But SRI in 72, Targan, Puthoff? Jacques Vallée was there?

• 44:19Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 44:20AJ Gentile?

  Did you spend any time with them?

• 44:21Speaker 03

  Yes. Oh, sure.

• 44:24AJ Gentile?

  Well, what, no one's been on the inside, except we hear from Targan, Puthoff, all the time. But I haven't heard you talk much about what was going on at SRI. What was going on behind the?

• 44:38Speaker 03

  Let me step back a little bit. Even as a criminology student, there were graduate students that I knew, friends of mine, who were all interested in consciousness. And we would meet. And at the same time, people like Jacques Vallée and Stanton Friedman were occasionally coming on campus and lecturing on UFOs. And once I got started at KPFA, I was sponsoring big symposiums on these topics as well, taking advantage of...

• 45:15Speaker 03

  The access that was available to me as a graduate student, I could, for example, reserve Zellerbach Auditorium that held 2,000 people and we brought Ernie Geller onto campus and, and the like. And one of the visiting speakers was Arthur Young, the inventor of the bell helicopter.

• 45:38AJ Gentile?

  Is that how you met him, through the air?

• 45:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, we'd have a small seminar and, you know, there would be 30 graduate students and Arthur Young would come and talk about his cosmologies and his theories and he was actually funding some of the research at SRI at, at the time. And he decided to set up a branch of his Institute for the Study of Consciousness in Berkeley. He bought a house, 2924 Benvenu Avenue in Berkeley and he, he had an apartment in the back of this large house and he invited me to move in.

• 46:14AJ Gentile?

  Could you give everyone just a back of the baseball card biography of Arthur Young? Because it's very interesting.

• 46:21Speaker 03

  He invented the bell helicopter, which was the first commercially licensed helicopter in the United States. We, we would think of it as the whirlybird, the little helicopter with the glass bubble dome and the skids and it was used, for example, in Korea. What was that movie, MASH?

• 46:41AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 46:42Speaker 03

  To do all the evacuations. It was, I remember as a young child, four years old, seeing a helicopter and people would point, "Look at that." No, nobody had ever seen such a thing before. It was 1947, it was invented.

• 46:58AJ Gentile?

  That's right. And I, you have to correct me, but he did, he wasn't like an aviation nut, right? He just saw a problem to solve.

• 47:09Speaker 03

  It was, here, here's the story. He went to Princeton. He studied general relativity in the 1920s at Princeton University as an undergraduate.

• 47:19AJ Gentile?

  That's an interesting time to be there.

• 47:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and he-

• 47:22AJ Gentile?

  So Einstein's around at that time, right?

• 47:25Speaker 03

  At the Institute for Advanced Studies, yeah. He, he became familiar with Einstein's work as an undergraduate in the 1920s at, at a time when very few people understood Einstein at all.

• 47:40AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 47:41Speaker 03

  And he decided, he was influenced, I think, by Alfred North Whitehead amongst others, who had what he called process philosophy. He believed, he saw that what was going on wasn't about things, it was about process. And he wanted to develop his own process philosophy. But he said to himself, "Look what's going on in the world. It's all about technology." And philosophers seem to have missed the boat. They don't understand technology, they don't talk about technology. He said to himself, "In order to be worthy of doing real philosophy, of being a real

• 48:25Speaker 03

  process philosopher, I have to prove to myself that I can master a technological problem." So he went to the Patent Office in Washington DC in 1926 to find an unsolved technical problem that he could solve.

• 48:42AJ Gentile?

  What do you got? Just what do you got?

• 48:45Speaker 03

  And, and he learned that there had been, I don't know, something like thirty attempts, unsuccessful, to develop a vehicle that could hover in midair.

• 48:56AJ Gentile?

  They were trying to do it since Da Vinci made that sketch. And they couldn't figure it out.

• 49:00Speaker 03

  Right. And, and so he set himself to solve that problem in 1926. His father was a landscape painter, pretty well-known, and he owned a farm in Pennsylvania with a big barn, and he used the barn as his laboratory, and he began building toy models. And it took him decades. He worked for years and years on problems, on solutions that didn't work, like propellers at the ends of the rotor blades. Things like that. But by the 1940s...

• 49:38Speaker 03

  He had, he had a toy model, something you could maybe two feet wide and, and it would hover in midair. He, he had solved the problem and he took it to the Bell Aircraft Company and he said, "Look what I got. We could make big ones."

• 49:55AJ Gentile?

  We could make big ones.

• 49:56Speaker 03

  And, and they said, "Okay, let's, let's do it." And, and the 19 Model 47 was the very first helicopter that the government licensed for commercial purposes.

• 50:09AJ Gentile?

  That's right. I think Operation High Jump Down in Antarctica was the first time they were deployed on that famous mission in 47. Um, so he made a bag of money.

• 50:18Speaker 03

  He did.

• 50:19AJ Gentile?

  And then no more in that industry, right?

• 50:21Speaker 03

  Then, I said, "Now it's time to get serious."

• 50:23AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  About philosophy.

• 50:25AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 50:26Speaker 03

  The whole point of the helicopter was just to show that I was worthy to do philosophy.

• 50:30AJ Gentile?

  What an amazing man.

• 50:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:32AJ Gentile?

  Um, he's someone, everyone should know his name. He was so incredible.

• 50:36Speaker 03

  He, he was... A gift. A gift to me.

• 50:46AJ Gentile?

  You've had many gifts, Jeffrey. I mean, I really, you really have. Talk about him.

• 50:52Speaker 03

  Well...

• 50:53AJ Gentile?

  Well, I mean, what was he really like?

• 50:55Speaker 03

  He, he was the sweetest person and he loved young people. He, this was of course during the Vietnam War era and he would tell all of his older friends, "Listen to the young people." And of course, the young people such as myself at the time were, you know, anti-war and into things like mysticism and, and also drugs.

• 51:25AJ Gentile?

  How did he feel about his invention being used so heavily in that war?

• 51:28Speaker 03

  It made him unhappy.

• 51:30AJ Gentile?

  I bet it did.

• 51:31Speaker 03

  He, he didn't like it and he also felt personal pain every time a pilot crashed.

• 51:40Speaker 03

  Because sometimes, I think at least on one occasion, they lost a test pilot.

• 51:45AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 51:45Speaker 03

  And it affected him deeply. His wife, Ruth Forbes Young, who came from a famous Forbes family, very wealthy New England family, created what was called the International Peace Academy. And they were training diplomats. They offered seminars to young diplomats from all countries how to negotiate for peace instead of for personal or advantage only for your country.

• 52:23AJ Gentile?

  Have we learned nothing? Did Arthur ever talk to you about that famous séance in 1952 with Forbes and the Astors and Allen Dulles and the Council of Nine and Puharich?

• 52:39Speaker 03

  Puharich, yes. Well, not specifically that séance. I had many conversations with him. I lived at the institute with him for about six, maybe nine months until...

• 52:55AJ Gentile?

  You lived with Arthur Young?

• 52:56Speaker 03

  He invited me to move into the house where he and his wife were living, along with my best friend at the time, Saul Paul Serag.

• 53:06AJ Gentile?

  Wow, I can't... You were too young to realize how important that was.

• 53:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. I had no real appreciation for many of the people I knew at that time in terms of their depth and who they were. I was young and naive. But, you know, I was a good learner and he had obviously noticed in the various seminars that Saul Paul and I were the ones who asked the most questions and got really engaged in his work. So he wanted us to be part of his institute and we were more than happy to do it.

• 53:47AJ Gentile?

  What did he tell you about that séance and Puharich?

• 53:52Speaker 03

  Really very little.

• 53:53AJ Gentile?

  Because it's become, it's mythology at this point.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  It has been. I don't, as I look back on what I now know about it all, I'm not sure what to make of it. Arthur, he did a lot of things. He was one of the early Dianetics clears. He and his wife.

• 54:11AJ Gentile?

  That's right.

• 54:12Speaker 03

  Both were. He.

• 54:14AJ Gentile?

  There was a lot of that at SRI.

• 54:15Speaker 03

  He, well, there was, yeah.

• 54:19AJ Gentile?

  What is it about Dianetics and Scientology that speaks to?

• 54:22Speaker 03

  Well, they, in Dianetics and Scientology, they're very open to the paranormal.

• 54:28AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 54:29Speaker 03

  And I don't think that I can say much else of a positive nature about it.

• 54:37AJ Gentile?

  Um, there's a dark side to every religion.

• 54:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:42AJ Gentile?

  But there's certainly something, maybe more so in Dianetics, that's appealing. I mean, one of the most famous psychics, who's my personal favorite is Pat Price.

• 54:51Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:51AJ Gentile?

  I believe he was a Scientologist, Hal Puthoff.

• 54:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:54AJ Gentile?

  Ingo Swan.

• 54:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:56AJ Gentile?

  Scientologist.

• 54:56Speaker 03

  That's all true. But Russell Targ, who was right in the middle of all of it, was not.

• 55:01AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 55:01Speaker 03

  And so, it, hard to say what influence Scientology actually had. I think Ed May, who took over the program after Hal Puthoff left, was also.

• 55:15AJ Gentile?

  That's right.

• 55:15Speaker 03

  So, there is that, but I don't think any of those people maintained, except for Pat Price.

• 55:22AJ Gentile?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:23Speaker 03

  Maintained their connection with Scientology. It's something they went through, they got what they could out of it, and they moved on.

• 55:30AJ Gentile?

  Right. They got clear, and that was enough.

• 55:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:32AJ Gentile?

  Um, we'll take a quick break, but this is a good time to transition to SRI, and then maybe we can talk a little bit about Ted Owens.

• 55:40Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 55:40AJ Gentile?

  Okay, we'll be right back. So, how I heard it was, you're a researcher, you're around SRI, you're in the scene.

• 55:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:49AJ Gentile?

  Russell and Hal hand you a file and say, "We can't do anything. What can you do with this?"

• 55:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 55:54AJ Gentile?

  Was that the Ted Owens file?

• 55:55Speaker 03

  That was the Ted Owens file.

• 55:57AJ Gentile?

  Why couldn't they do anything with that?

• 56:01Speaker 03

  Well, they were receiving funding from the CIA.

• 56:05AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 56:06Speaker 03

  They had already gone public with their research on Uri Geller. It was published in Nature magazine, one of the world's premier scientific magazines.

• 56:19AJ Gentile?

  When is that, around seventy-five?

• 56:20Speaker 03

  Seventy-four, as I recall.

• 56:25Speaker 03

  And they didn't want to have a flamboyant psychic. They didn't want to be in the news. Uri Geller, at the time, was incredibly controversial.

• 56:36AJ Gentile?

  Why, uh, why?

• 56:37Speaker 03

  Well, because he was being attacked by the skeptics, because he was a public performer, a stage magician, and you had people like the amazing Randy writing books about what a fraud he was, and going, in fact, going to scientific conferences and claiming that in public, the people I knew who were in no way Confederates with Uri Geller were helping him cheat. And, and so, you know, what people at SRI wanted, who were, you know, was largely a military-industrial think tank, they wanted to be low-key. They didn't want to have any kind of public prominence of that sort.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  And Ted Owens was doing everything he could to attract publicity to himself.

• 57:29AJ Gentile?

  More so than Ingo Swann?

• 57:31Speaker 03

  Oh, I think so, although Ingo was probably much smarter.

• 57:34AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 57:35Speaker 03

  About it, but Ted Owens was...

• 57:38AJ Gentile?

  Much kinder, too, I would guess.

• 57:40Speaker 03

  Um, well, Owens had his kind side.

• 57:43AJ Gentile?

  He did?

• 57:44Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 57:44AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 57:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, he was kind to me. I had a good relationship with him for many years, but if you, if you crossed him, that was another matter. I was, I had learned by that point to, because of my experience in San Quentin, to treat everybody with respect, regardless of what they may have done, or what other people think of them, and so on. I, I believe every human being deserves respect, just for being human.

• 58:16AJ Gentile?

  Sure, you were the perfect person for that, because he has this sort of infamous reputation for being a little bit cagey.

• 58:24Speaker 03

  Feisty.

• 58:24AJ Gentile?

  Feisty.

• 58:25Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 58:26AJ Gentile?

  Feisty.

• 58:26Speaker 03

  He was feisty. He, he was, um... You know Sailor, he had been a sailor in the Second World War and then he went to Duke University while he was in the Navy. He was doing psychic stuff right and left and he wrote a letter to J V Rhine at Duke University and said, you know, here's what I'm doing. I want to do experiments. And Rhine was writing back and giving him pointers. And after he got out of the Navy, Rhine said, come to Duke and I'll, we'll get you enrolled at Duke University. And he did. He became J V Rhine's assistant.

• 59:06AJ Gentile?

  Wow, I didn't know that.

• 59:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:08AJ Gentile?

  So what was special about Ted? What could he do?

• 59:10Speaker 03

  Well, he claimed he could do psychokinesis.

• 59:14AJ Gentile?

  Okay, so moving things.

• 59:16Speaker 03

  Moving things. He told, many stories he had about things disappearing in his presence. And he, he said he did seances for the Rhines and things of this sort. And apparently, when he was around girls, their earrings would disappear. And J V Rhine actually tried to investigate this, according to Ted. And, but it, he, he got, he eloped with another woman from Duke and left and tried to set himself up as a healer. He knew hypnosis.

• 59:54Speaker 03

  And he was quite successful as a healer until, I think in 1954, the AMA shut him down. Because they thought at the time hypnosis was not acceptable. And they thought he, you know, he's practicing medicine, he's a quack and so on. And he became very bitter.

• 1:00:17AJ Gentile?

  AMA has been like that since its founding, very against herbalists and natural remedies. I'm not surprised.

• 1:00:24Speaker 03

  I think it's changing.

• 1:00:26AJ Gentile?

  I hope so.

• 1:00:26Speaker 03

  Slowly. But in any case. He began to think that he was working with nature and then working with a poltergeist. He thought it was a poltergeist he called Big Lorna. And finally, it dawned on him that it could be extraterrestrials. And he remembered having had some weird experiences that appeared to be of an extraterrestrial nature. And finally, he felt, wait, I'm in telepathic contact. They're talking to me and they're giving me instructions how to interact with them and teaching me their language. And he, he held many different jobs.

• 1:01:07Speaker 03

  He was a bullwhip artist, did circus, and he had a knife-throwing routine. And he was a jazz musician and a high-speed typist. And, and, and, and he worked at one time as what he called an idea man for a railroad company. And he said that the aliens, he called them the space intelligences, had guided him since his childhood to have many different careers so that his mind would be flexible enough to understand their very complicated symbolic system. And also, he claimed that they had been searching since the days of Moses for somebody with

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  a nervous system, strong enough to handle all the energy that they were gonna run through him. And he thought of himself as, you know, the first person since Moses to be able to do these kinds of things.

• 1:02:06AJ Gentile?

  Messianic figure.

• 1:02:07Speaker 03

  He was.

• 1:02:08AJ Gentile?

  I think he's the first person to bring the insectoid aliens to...

• 1:02:12Speaker 00

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• 1:02:43AJ Gentile?

  To the public, that was his context, right?

• 1:02:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, that was it. He said the tweeter and Twitter.

• 1:02:49AJ Gentile?

  That's right, that's right.

• 1:02:51Speaker 03

  Who, he called them that because they had high-squeaky voices.

• 1:02:56AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:02:56Speaker 03

  They communicate with him telepathically and he learned how to send them telepathic images of what he wished them to accomplish. But, and then they would sit at their invisible UFO, high above the planet, in front of a big screen and push buttons and whatever and make these things happen.

• 1:03:17AJ Gentile?

  What was your research like with him?

• 1:03:20Speaker 03

  It was mostly about collecting information because he was a force of nature. He spent, he wasn't a wealthy man, but he spent almost all of his time and energy making these, doing these demonstrations. He would send, he had a list of scientists, he would mail to each of these people a statement, "I'm about to do this or that." And it were unusual things, you would not expect to happen. For example, right before I visited Puthoff and Targ at SRI International in Menlo Park,

• 1:04:01Speaker 03

  California, he had written to them, he had been pestering them for a couple of years, saying, you know, "Stop wasting your time with Uri Geller, I'm the world's greatest psychic." And finally, he wrote to them, he said, "I'm gonna prove it to you for good." He said, "I'm gonna give you weather like you have never seen before in Palo Alto." I'm gonna make, it was a drought at the time, and in the San Francisco Bay area, it almost never snows. There's no snow.

• 1:04:35AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 1:04:36Speaker 03

  There. And... He said that you're gonna have every kind of weather, there will be sleet and hail and snow, and there will be power blackouts and UFO sightings, and it's all gonna happen in a couple of days, and your local newspaper is gonna write a story saying that the drought is over because of all of this. At the time, the papers were saying no end in sight-

• 1:04:59AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:05:00Speaker 03

  -to the drought, and all of this happened in a few days.

• 1:05:04AJ Gentile?

  It happened.

• 1:05:04Speaker 03

  It did happen.

• 1:05:05AJ Gentile?

  Were you working with him during this-

• 1:05:07Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:05:07AJ Gentile?

  Not yet.

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

  This was right before I show up at SRI. So not only do they have the files, and do they wanna get rid of the files, but they are now convinced this guy is for real.

• 1:05:19AJ Gentile?

  The CIA probably didn't know about him, because they would've liked to have that guy handy.

• 1:05:24Speaker 03

  He tried everything he could to interest the CIA.

• 1:05:27AJ Gentile?

  He did?

• 1:05:27Speaker 03

  Yes, he did.

• 1:05:28AJ Gentile?

  I don't know why they didn't take him on. He can create snow in California?

• 1:05:33Speaker 03

  Well, they had nothing, no, they never, to my knowledge, expressed an interest. He claimed that he was in contact with some agent from the CIA, he called George Clark, and, uh, but at one time, he thought I was a CIA agent, so...

• 1:05:53AJ Gentile?

  Do you think he did that? Do you think he made that happen?

• 1:05:58Speaker 03

  Well, it's always a question of whether he predicted it, or whether he caused it. Now, Russell Targ sent him a letter after that event, and saying that was a great prediction, and he wrote back and said, basically, "Hell no, it was no prediction, I caused it." And he was always a little ambiguous as to whether he caused it through his own powerful mind, or whether it was the space intelligences who did it, and it had nothing to do with him.

• 1:06:31AJ Gentile?

  And I think Ed May was of the same school of thought, that that's just precognition. You didn't do that, you just saw something.

• 1:06:38Speaker 03

  Ed May doesn't believe in psychokinesis.

• 1:06:41AJ Gentile?

  He just believes it's precognition.

• 1:06:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:06:43AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. It's very interesting, the arguments that happen within parapsychology. You forget the skeptics-

• 1:06:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:06:49AJ Gentile?

  -within, there's all these different opinions.

• 1:06:51Speaker 03

  That's true, yeah.

• 1:06:53AJ Gentile?

  So- You take Ted's file, what type of work did you do with him?

• 1:07:00Speaker 03

  Well, the first thing I wanted to do after reading it over carefully and seeing, you know, by that time, I first met Ted in 1976, in the summer of 76, and I was in England at the time, we met in London, and he had ended yet another drought.

• 1:07:21AJ Gentile?

  He ended another drought?

• 1:07:23Speaker 03

  Well, what happened was at SRI, they leaked a little story about the drought in, ending the drought in Menlo Park in California, it was a big drought, and there was a drought going on in London, a very serious drought in all of England in that summer, and when I arrived for a parapsychology conference, my friends there said, "If you want to have your picture taken on the front page of the London Times, all you have to do is show up in Piccadilly Circus with an umbrella, and people will think you're crazy."

• 1:07:59AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:08:00Speaker 03

  And they'll take your picture and it'll be in the newspaper." It was that serious, they were bringing water by truck.

• 1:08:07AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 1:08:08Speaker 03

  To cities outside of London where the water had already run dry, but when Ted Owens arrived, all of a sudden, it rained and poured and...

• 1:08:20AJ Gentile?

  And he predicted that?

• 1:08:22Speaker 03

  He claimed he caused it.

• 1:08:23AJ Gentile?

  Claimed he caused that.

• 1:08:24Speaker 03

  So that's the circumstance of my meeting him, and it was a parapsychology conference, and he was a speaker, but you have to imagine this guy, sort of, I think of him like Paul Bunyan, larger than life, a big folk hero, and he had a big booming voice, and he was a large man at the time with a big beard, and he smoked a cigar, and he walked on to...

• 1:08:54Speaker 03

  The stage of this parapsychology conference where he had been invited because the people in London brought him there for the purpose of ending the drought because they learned about what had happened in California.

• 1:09:06AJ Gentile?

  Unbelievable. It worked?

• 1:09:08Speaker 03

  It worked. And he's on stage and he's about, he carried a little red toy wagon behind him onto the stage with piled high with papers. And, and he said, "These papers are all the documentation of the many demonstrations I've done because I'm the world's greatest psychic and I can control the weather and I can make UFOs appear." Well, the British people are not accustomed to or fond of that kind of American braggadocio behavior.

• 1:09:45AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:09:46Speaker 03

  And the strangest thing happened at that time, which was one of the speakers at the conference didn't show up. So Ted Owens was scheduled to follow him. And so they said, "You go on." So he's halfway through his presentation and the guy shows up.

• 1:10:06AJ Gentile?

  Oh.

• 1:10:07Speaker 03

  And so they tell him, "Okay, Ted, you've got to leave the stage."

• 1:10:10AJ Gentile?

  Uh-oh.

• 1:10:11Speaker 03

  And so before he left the stage, people, the, the audience was already practically booing him.

• 1:10:20AJ Gentile?

  Really?

• 1:10:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:10:22AJ Gentile?

  What, just because of his attitude?

• 1:10:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:10:24AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:10:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. He, he didn't sit well with the British public.

• 1:10:26AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:27Speaker 03

  And I got up and said, "Well, I happen to know about what happened in California firsthand." And, and I just mentioned that, you know, as a way to kind of ameliorate things.

• 1:10:39AJ Gentile?

  Sure. A calming presence.

• 1:10:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:42AJ Gentile?

  Which you are.

• 1:10:43Speaker 03

  So, so we bonded over that. And I began looking at the files and the thing that appealed to me... Was that he claimed he could produce UFOs on demand. And there were examples in the files where he'd go to police officers and he'd say, "I'll make you a UFO and you will see it. And it'll be in the newspapers and you can tell them that I said it would happen and then there would be."

• 1:11:12AJ Gentile?

  So those files were real?

• 1:11:13Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:14AJ Gentile?

  Did you see him produce UFOs or anything like this?

• 1:11:17Speaker 03

  I set up an experiment. I said, "Let's do it again."

• 1:11:20AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:21Speaker 03

  And before I had any opportunity to really set up the experiment, he was on it. He said, "I'm gonna do this. So there won't be one, there're gonna be three."

• 1:11:33AJ Gentile?

  He called the number, okay.

• 1:11:35Speaker 03

  He said, "There'll be three big UFO sightings within a hundred miles of the San Francisco Bay Area."

• 1:11:43AJ Gentile?

  How skeptical are you?

• 1:11:44Speaker 03

  Well, skeptical enough to realize that this wasn't the way you should be done.

• 1:11:49AJ Gentile?

  Right, right.

• 1:11:50Speaker 03

  So I scrambled. I said, "We need a control group." I have friends in San Diego, California, West Coast City, about the same population as San Francisco. I wrote to them and said, "We'll use San Diego as a control group." I sent letters out to every law enforcement agency within a hundred miles of both cities. Said, "Let me know if you get any UFO sightings in your area." And waited to see what would happen. And sure enough, there was a fellow near San Francisco, a little town called Concord, California, was out walking at four in the morning and claimed that he'd been abducted

• 1:12:35Speaker 03

  by aliens at four in the morning. Perfectly sober person at the time with no background in UFOs. We interviewed him and it actually, from all accounts, seemed like he had reported it to the police, was in the newspapers and seemed like, yeah, this appeared to be the first legitimate sighting.

• 1:12:56AJ Gentile?

  And were there three of them?

• 1:12:58Speaker 03

  Well, after that...

• 1:13:01Speaker 03

  Owens called me up on the phone. He, he at the time, as I recall, was living in Oregon. He moved around a lot. And he said to me, "I can tell the next one is gonna be really big." He said, "I feel it coming." He said, "There is gonna be a UFO. It's gonna be one of the best sightings ever." He said, "It's gonna be seen by hundreds of people. It's gonna be photographed, and the photograph will be published on the front page of one of your local newspapers," which is what happened four days later.

• 1:13:39AJ Gentile?

  Four days later it happened?

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:13:42AJ Gentile?

  At some point, are you starting to really believe this guy?

• 1:13:45Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:13:46AJ Gentile?

  Yes. And I'd be hoping, don't predict anything bad.

• 1:13:52Speaker 03

  Well, there were.

• 1:13:53AJ Gentile?

  I know. Before we get to that, I know, we both know Chris Bledsoe.

• 1:13:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:13:59AJ Gentile?

  I think we both agree, he's a lovely man.

• 1:14:01Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:14:02AJ Gentile?

  He, he can summon something.

• 1:14:04Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:14:05AJ Gentile?

  I don't think that's a debate. He's, he's studied by the government, CIA. He believes that he's summoning spiritual entities.

• 1:14:16Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:14:17AJ Gentile?

  What do you think?

• 1:14:18Speaker 03

  Yes, you could call them orbs.

• 1:14:21AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:14:22Speaker 03

  And he believes, and people, I think other people would agree that these orbs, they are either conscious themselves, or they are inhabited by conscious beings, he calls the lady.

• 1:14:35AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:14:36Speaker 03

  It does indeed appear to be something not so different from angelic apparitions that occur in the Bible.

• 1:14:46AJ Gentile?

  He made predictions on this very show a few months ago that are coming true.

• 1:14:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51AJ Gentile?

  Was Ted summoning those same type of entities?

• 1:14:55Speaker 03

  I don't think so.

• 1:14:58AJ Gentile?

  It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like craft.

• 1:15:01Speaker 03

  Yes, it does seem like craft. The one that occurred that I just mentioned was seen both from the air and the ground. The California University, what's now called Sonoma State University, at the time it was, had a different name, Sonoma State College or something, and near San Francisco, in Ronert Park, California.

• 1:15:27Speaker 03

  The art department was sponsoring a, an artist named Steven Polaski who had a airplane, was a pilot, and he had smoke trailing out the back of his airplane, colored smoke. He make designs in the sky.

• 1:15:43AJ Gentile?

  That was his art?

• 1:15:44Speaker 03

  That was his art.

• 1:15:44AJ Gentile?

  What a cool, what a cool art project.

• 1:15:46Speaker 03

  He was an artist. And so the art department sponsored him and he's flying over the campus, 3,000 feet altitude. There are hundreds of students are outside with their cameras, watching the whole thing, including video. And a UFO shows up right in his airspace. And so it's seen from the air and by hundreds of people on the ground simultaneously photographed and videotaped. It got a lot of PR. The Berkeley Gazette ran a photo on the front page as Ted Owens had said would happen.

• 1:16:21AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:16:22Speaker 03

  And the video was shown on the Channel 9 KQED Evening News.

• 1:16:26AJ Gentile?

  Did your phone ring with an "I told you so"?

• 1:16:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:29AJ Gentile?

  Of course.

• 1:16:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I made a big mistake.

• 1:16:33AJ Gentile?

  What was that?

• 1:16:34Speaker 03

  I said, "Ted, that's only two sightings."

• 1:16:37AJ Gentile?

  Oh, no.

• 1:16:39Speaker 03

  "You promised me three."

• 1:16:40AJ Gentile?

  So what did he do?

• 1:16:44Speaker 03

  He slammed the phone down.

• 1:16:45AJ Gentile?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:16:46Speaker 03

  He slammed the phone down and I began to feel sick. You know how you get a little scratchy feeling in your throat and you think, "Uh-oh, this is gonna be a bad sore throat."

• 1:17:02AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:17:02Speaker 03

  And you can tell it's starting?

• 1:17:04AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:17:04Speaker 03

  That's what was happening.

• 1:17:06AJ Gentile?

  As soon as you?

• 1:17:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, right away. It happened. And then 45 minutes later, he called me back and without saying anything about what had happened, he simply said, "Jeffrey, I will never do that to you again."

• 1:17:23AJ Gentile?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:17:24Speaker 03

  Yeah. And the sore throat went away.

• 1:17:30AJ Gentile?

  You're well-known for being very balanced.

• 1:17:34AJ Gentile?

  I've never seen you really, fully commit without hearing all sides.

• 1:17:39AJ Gentile?

  You've gotta be a full believer at that point. He can hurt people.

• 1:17:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would say by then I was definitely convinced, but it got worse after that.

• 1:17:52AJ Gentile?

  Your relationship with him?

• 1:17:54Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, because he was, as I say, trying to get the attention of the CIA and the US government. He was living on the edge of poverty. He was spending all of his money on Xeroxing all of the magazine articles and newspaper articles validating the different demonstrations that he was doing and mailing it off to scientists who were trying. Some of them were, you know, seriously following his work, but none of them had the resources. And he wanted the US government to set him up as an institution and he would use his powers for the benefit of humanity and for the United States.

• 1:18:36Speaker 03

  And of course, they wanted to have nothing to do with him.

• 1:18:41AJ Gentile?

  I wonder why that is. Did they ever approach you? I mean, just to ask about him?

• 1:18:46Speaker 03

  No, no, I was never approached, but I was, you know, at the time, I was pretty well-known, I suppose, as a long-haired hippie psychedelic drug user. And the CIA would have no interest in a person like me.

• 1:19:01AJ Gentile?

  Right, the CIA doesn't want anything to do with drugs or psychedelics.

• 1:19:04Speaker 03

  Except if it's Puharich researching. But they weren't particularly interested in the type of person I was at the time.

• 1:19:18Speaker 03

  But Owens was desperate for their help and attention. And he finally said, "I'm gonna declare war against the US government until they give me what I want."

• 1:19:28AJ Gentile?

  He told you that?

• 1:19:28Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 1:19:29AJ Gentile?

  And this is after the sore throat?

• 1:19:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:19:31AJ Gentile?

  So you know?

• 1:19:32Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:19:33AJ Gentile?

  He can do this?

• 1:19:34Speaker 03

  Well, he declared war. He said, "There're gonna be poltergeist attacks on US naval ships." And then he'd show me newspaper articles about mysterious fires and things that happened aboard naval vessels. And then he said, "I'm gonna attack power plants." And they would send me newspaper clippings about uncanny accidents at nuclear power sites.

• 1:19:57AJ Gentile?

  Why would the CIA not bring this guy in? He sounds like exactly what they wanted. He's just unstable?

• 1:20:04Speaker 03

  Well, I, first of all, I think it was too unbelievable.

• 1:20:09AJ Gentile?

  It's unbelievable.

• 1:20:10Speaker 03

  Unbelievable.

• 1:20:11AJ Gentile?

  But, but you've, you've confirmed, what, about two thirds of his?

• 1:20:15Speaker 03

  I have, but tha- that was me.

• 1:20:17AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:20:18Speaker 03

  I've heard, I convened a meeting of scientists. My wife, Janelle, went, J. Allen Hynek was in town in San Francisco. And she went and fetched him from his hotel room and brought him to the meeting. And we had about a dozen scientists there. I said, "Look, we've got to research this man."

• 1:20:37AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:20:39Speaker 03

  And J. Allen Hynek said, "I wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole because the phenomena that he produces come from the unconscious and I don't want to have anything to do with that."

• 1:20:51AJ Gentile?

  I think he had a point. I think, I think Hynek had a point about Ted. There's something that scares me about him.

• 1:20:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:58AJ Gentile?

  After that sore throat and you hang up the phone, you've got to be thinking, "I can't cross this guy again."

• 1:21:06Speaker 03

  I, no, I wasn't. I was naive.

• 1:21:08AJ Gentile?

  Really?

• 1:21:09Speaker 03

  Well, and I also trusted him. I, he said he wouldn't do it again and...

• 1:21:13AJ Gentile?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:21:14Speaker 03

  And, and I had no intention to cross. I didn't cross him just to say, "You know, you promised me three and we only got two."

• 1:21:21AJ Gentile?

  Why did you say that? Were you teasing him?

• 1:21:24Speaker 03

  I wanted the third one.

• 1:21:28AJ Gentile?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  I, and it never came. There were only two. And I can tell you, in San Diego, there were zero.

• 1:21:36AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:21:37Speaker 03

  But, uh, so he didn't fulfill his promise exactly as he said he would. And it never works out exactly quite the same way. There's always some differences and these are large-scale phenomenon. They're hard to assess statistically in any way. And people figure, "Well, he's just fooling you somehow. You don't know how."

• 1:22:03Speaker 03

  But maybe, you know, knows, or he's predicting, or he's in cahoots with the newspapers. Who knows?

• 1:22:12AJ Gentile?

  There's always gonna be that.

• 1:22:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:15AJ Gentile?

  So you continued to work with him for a number of years?

• 1:22:18Speaker 03

  But it began, I began to lose interest.

• 1:22:21AJ Gentile?

  Why?

• 1:22:22Speaker 03

  Because his war against the US government wasn't going too well. And at some point, he, he made a big prediction, you know, they weren't paying attention to the poltergeist attacks and the nuclear power plant problems. And, and he said, okay, this is gonna be a massive earthquake. I'm gonna really show them. And it didn't happen.

• 1:22:45AJ Gentile?

  It didn't happen?

• 1:22:46Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:22:46AJ Gentile?

  Thank goodness.

• 1:22:47Speaker 03

  It didn't happen. And at that point, I was moving on in my life. I wasn't thinking about Ted Owens until...

• 1:22:57Speaker 03

  It would have been Christmas Eve, 1985, and he called me up. A big booming voice. I had, hadn't had much, I was keeping the files. I still have all the files.

• 1:23:12AJ Gentile?

  You still have those research files?

• 1:23:14Speaker 03

  We are putting them online. They will eventually become searchable.

• 1:23:19AJ Gentile?

  Oh, that's...

• 1:23:20Speaker 03

  Online. We're making them all machine readable and even the handwritten ones.

• 1:23:28Speaker 03

  And he said, Jeffrey, this is the most important phone call you will ever receive. He obviously wanted to get my attention.

• 1:23:39AJ Gentile?

  You've got mine.

• 1:23:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. He said, it's up to you. You've got to contact the US government and tell them not to send up the next space shuttle.

• 1:23:50AJ Gentile?

  Oh, no.

• 1:23:51Speaker 03

  Because if they do, my UFOs are gonna knock it out of the sky.

• 1:23:56AJ Gentile?

  Oh, no.

• 1:23:57Speaker 03

  That's what he said. And I, first of all, had no leverage whatsoever with the US government. I wasn't about to, I didn't know who to call and I wouldn't have known what to say and they wouldn't have believed me in any case. And so I did nothing. And then it was about a month later when the Challenger exploded.

• 1:24:22AJ Gentile?

  That's one of those moments that, uh, I don't know if it is for you, where everyone says where they were when JFK, they found out JFK was killed. For me, it's Challenger. I remember what the weather was. I know what I was wearing. I remember watching it on TV. I was home from school. Do you remember that day?

• 1:24:39Speaker 03

  Not particularly. I remember reading and learning about it, of course, but, uh, I don't remember the moment the way I do remember the assassination of Kennedy.

• 1:24:49AJ Gentile?

  Right. Did you make the connection when Challenger exploded?

• 1:24:54Speaker 03

  Oh, it shook me to my bones.

• 1:24:56AJ Gentile?

  I would think so.

• 1:24:57Speaker 03

  I felt like horrified.

• 1:25:00AJ Gentile?

  What about guilt? Like, you should have done something?

• 1:25:02Speaker 03

  Uh, no, I don't think there was anything I could have done.

• 1:25:05AJ Gentile?

  I don't think there was, but guilt is an easy emotion to feel.

• 1:25:09Speaker 03

  But I felt I should stop ignoring him.

• 1:25:12AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:25:12Speaker 03

  And what I arranged to do at that point was to take his training program.

• 1:25:20AJ Gentile?

  To try to learn to do what he does?

• 1:25:22Speaker 03

  He had a training program and I felt I better learn about it.

• 1:25:27AJ Gentile?

  This sounds like, what, you're training to defend yourself? What would you?

• 1:25:31Speaker 03

  Well, you could do whatever you want with it. That's the thing.

• 1:25:37Speaker 03

  And

• 1:25:38AJ Gentile?

  This is scary.

• 1:25:39Speaker 03

  He said to me, "What do you want to do with these powers?" We, I arranged for him to come to San Francisco. I had some friends who had some money so we could afford to bring him out.

• 1:25:52AJ Gentile?

  So you called them, "Please stop crashing shuttles. Come on down."

• 1:25:56Speaker 03

  Well, he claimed it wasn't he who crashed the shuttle.

• 1:25:59AJ Gentile?

  It was the

• 1:25:59Speaker 03

  It was the UFOs in his behalf.

• 1:26:04AJ Gentile?

  But he asked them to do it?

• 1:26:08Speaker 03

  No, he didn't say that.

• 1:26:10AJ Gentile?

  Okay, because that would be evil to me.

• 1:26:12Speaker 03

  He didn't say, he never told me he asked them to do it, but he said that they did it.

• 1:26:18AJ Gentile?

  He did ask you to warn them, so maybe-

• 1:26:20Speaker 03

  He asked me to warn them.

• 1:26:21AJ Gentile?

  Maybe he was trying to save them. I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. But it's, but I, there's such a darkness to this character.

• 1:26:27Speaker 03

  There is a darkness to it, and, and, and of course, there's the other story. It was the O-ring.

• 1:26:32AJ Gentile?

  It was the O-ring.

• 1:26:33Speaker 03

  There were, there were warnings. NASA should have known better. There was all of that.

• 1:26:37AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:26:38Speaker 03

  And not only that, there were other people making predictions.

• 1:26:41AJ Gentile?

  Yes, there were.

• 1:26:43Speaker 03

  So, I, all I could say for myself was, I'd better pay more attention-

• 1:26:48AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:26:49Speaker 03

  -to Ted Owens. So I arranged to take his training program, which was three days, and it was mostly hypnoti- hypnosis. We, we got a hotel room for him in San Francisco, and I had a couple of friends with me, and for three days, he hypnotized us.

• 1:27:11AJ Gentile?

  What kind of, what kind of hypnosis is this? Is he, I mean, it's not the, he's not waggling a watch in front of your eyes, right?

• 1:27:17Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 1:27:18AJ Gentile?

  He's speaking-

• 1:27:18Speaker 03

  He does a normal hypnotic induction, and then he give you suggestions, and it, I wrote a book called The PK Man, in which I, because I recorded the entire thing. I ha- I still have the audio tapes-

• 1:27:31AJ Gentile?

  You have those?

• 1:27:32Speaker 03

  -of the entire training.

• 1:27:34AJ Gentile?

  I mean, I've, I've read the transcripts in PK Man. I didn't know you used to have the tapes.

• 1:27:37Speaker 03

  I have the tapes.

• 1:27:38AJ Gentile?

  You need to make those available.

• 1:27:40Speaker 03

  Well, maybe. Yeah. I, I could, uh, he warned me, he said, "You shouldn't really share this with people without getting the permission of the space intelligences."

• 1:27:52AJ Gentile?

  Oh, boy. So, the whole training is around these, the space intelligences?

• 1:27:56Speaker 03

  He, he said that, I asked him, "Is this just hypnosis? Is that what you're doing?" He said, "No. The hypnosis is only part of it." He said, "It's psychokinesis, and we're working on you, on your brain. The space intelligences will work on your brain." He said, "What do you want to do with this power?" And I said to him- I don't want to do what you're doing.

• 1:28:22AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 1:28:23Speaker 03

  I have no interest in controlling the weather and calling down UFOs. So what I really want to do is become a spokesperson to the world at large, to mainstream public, about the realities of the psychic world. And that was my goal. And it was six months, I think, I took the training in, it must have been February, and by June, I had set up the original Thinking Allowed TV series.

• 1:29:02Speaker 03

  We started out on cable, local cable, public access TV in Marin County, and within a year or two, we were out on the satellite to public TV stations all over North America.

• 1:29:16AJ Gentile?

  That show, I think, ran 16 years.

• 1:29:18Speaker 03

  From 1986 to 2002.

• 1:29:22AJ Gentile?

  Yeah. Do you credit that training and the intelligences, or?

• 1:29:27Speaker 03

  I don't know how I could have done it myself.

• 1:29:30AJ Gentile?

  What did they do that you couldn't? You were already in media, no?

• 1:29:34Speaker 03

  Well, I kind of gave up my radio show.

• 1:29:39AJ Gentile?

  Why?

• 1:29:40Speaker 03

  Because I wanted to complete my dissertation and get a doctoral degree.

• 1:29:44AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:29:45Speaker 03

  So, you know, I became a full-time graduate student and wrote a dissertation and wrote a couple of books, and it was only 1986, six years, and then I was fighting this lawsuit.

• 1:30:01AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:30:02Speaker 03

  Because the skeptics were trying to take my degree away from me, and I was being libeled by them, and so I fought a libel suit for six years, which I won.

• 1:30:13AJ Gentile?

  Which you won.

• 1:30:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then I set up this program, and before we knew, you know, we started on a public access cable, and not even in any of the mainstream San Francisco stations, but in a suburban station, and, you know, two years later, we're out on the satellite, covered by 120 TV stations. It just happened.

• 1:30:42AJ Gentile?

  And you think that it was that training and this?

• 1:30:45Speaker 03

  I

• 1:30:46AJ Gentile?

  Why couldn't you have done it?

• 1:30:48Speaker 03

  Well, maybe I could have. Who knows?

• 1:30:50AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:30:50Speaker 03

  I can't say for sure, but I can say that it seemed to happen without any effort.

• 1:30:56AJ Gentile?

  Because it seems like you forgot that you went from intern as a receptionist at a radio station to a hit radio show in three weeks. So clearly you know how to reach the public.

• 1:31:07Speaker 03

  I was a good interviewer. I understood that.

• 1:31:10AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:31:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. But, you know, this material hadn't gone mainstream and PBS stations were very hesitant. And even in the early days, we didn't cover a lot of parapsychology, the way I'm more inclined to do now on YouTube, where I don't have, you know, in PBS, they're very conservative, actually.

• 1:31:33AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:34Speaker 03

  And for example, when our program went out on the satellite, we had some sponsors, the Institute of Neuropsychology sponsored us. Well, and I think it was Nashville, Tennessee, the local PBS station went to a local psychologist and asked him, what's your opinion? Should we carry this program? And he said to them, the people of Tennessee are not ready for this.

• 1:32:04AJ Gentile?

  They really were. They were ready for it. Ted Owens died in 1987. How did that relationship wrap up for the two of you?

• 1:32:13Speaker 03

  Well, at that point, obviously, we were in touch. This was like a year after I had done the training with him and our TV show was launched. I was getting what I had asked for. And I heard from him. He wrote to me from a farmhouse in Fort Ann, New York, where he had moved. And his letter was quite strange. He said, "The UFOs told me to come here. They're going to come for me." And then he sent me clippings of newspaper articles about UFO sightings

• 1:32:53Speaker 03

  in the area. And he said, "Actually, they're hovering right over this farmhouse where I'm living." And he died there.

• 1:33:03AJ Gentile?

  Did you keep those clippings?

• 1:33:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I have them all.

• 1:33:07AJ Gentile?

  I had heard you say at one point that you almost warned him or told him that, not that he was evil, but he was dangerous, to be careful.

• 1:33:19Speaker 03

  I did. I was very unhappy with the threats that he was making, and I asked him to stop doing it. I've always felt that he's his own worst enemy.

• 1:33:29AJ Gentile?

  It's what it sounds like.

• 1:33:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. I tried as much as I could to interest the scientific community. We're still trying to do that. But it's like for most people, it's a step too far, although things are changing.

• 1:33:46AJ Gentile?

  Yes, they are.

• 1:33:47Speaker 03

  Chris Bledsoe, as you mentioned.

• 1:33:49AJ Gentile?

  And I asked Chris, I said, "Do you think people should learn how to do this?" He said, "No." He said, "This is a gift and a curse," and he said, "I wouldn't mess with it." I think he's probably right. Could Ted Owens' consciousness have existed past his death and contacted you?

• 1:34:08Speaker 03

  Well, in fact, it was, I think, 2023, if I recall, 2022. I heard from a viewer of my YouTube show, some fellow in Germany, wrote to me, and he said, "I was meditating. I'm a deep meditator, and while I was in meditation, I experienced a presence, and the presence became more solid to me in my meditation, and I recognized it as Ted Owens, because I'm a fan of your program, and I've seen some pictures of Ted Owens that you've shown, and it was him."

• 1:34:51Speaker 03

  And he said to me, "Reach out to Jeffrey and tell him that if he wants to contact me, I'm available."

• 1:35:01AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 1:35:02Speaker 03

  And, um, you know, this is thirty five years after his death. Something like that. I guess that would have been twenty twenty two. And so I endeavored.

• 1:35:14AJ Gentile?

  You did, because at this point, you're well known. You've won the Bigelow Prize.

• 1:35:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:18AJ Gentile?

  So you're working in, in death, afterlife experiences, all consciousness.

• 1:35:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and it was quite clear to me at that point that there's a relationship between

• 1:35:29AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:35:29Speaker 03

  the afterlife and UFOs.

• 1:35:31AJ Gentile?

  Oh, yes. So how did you try to contact Ted?

• 1:35:34Speaker 03

  Well, what happened was I, I would try to meditate.

• 1:35:39AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:35:39Speaker 03

  Nothing happened. But one night, I was asleep. And you know, you're kind of half awake, half asleep, in a hypnagogic state. And I felt his presence.

• 1:35:52AJ Gentile?

  Hmm.

• 1:35:53Speaker 03

  And I said to him, with a conversation, I, I said to him, uh, this is the early phases of the Ukraine war at the time. It would have been, I think, around December of twenty twenty two. And I, at the time, the Soviets, not the Soviets, the Russians, were bombing the power plants in Ukraine, trying to freeze them in the winter. I felt for the people of Ukraine. I said, and I thought Ted would be sympathetic to that. And I said to him,

• 1:36:34Speaker 03

  and this just popped into my head in this altered state of consciousness, can we make it warm for the winter in Ukraine? So the people don't suffer. That, that was my concern. And he, and I knew, of course, that he had done this sort of thing while he was alive, exactly this sort of thing. Heat waves in the middle of winter with, there were examples of. So he said to me, if the space intelligences agree, then we can do it. And so I, um, I created, I think, a, um, a monologue. I put it out on the video. This is, this is what he says is gonna happen.

• 1:37:19Speaker 03

  Again, it was just a few days later, I think in January 1st, if I recall correctly, 2023, there were a thousand temperature records broken all across Europe.

• 1:37:36AJ Gentile?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:37:37Speaker 03

  It was, and it was totally characteristic of the kinds of things he had done in the past. And, and I recall, because I was now, the internet was very active. Uh, and, and there were meteorologists who specialize in rare weather patterns, absurd things, and they were posting on, they had blogs and things and saying, this is insane. We've never seen anything like this before. It came out of nowhere. It was unanticipated.

• 1:38:10Speaker 03

  And I endeavored to set up an experiment to see, you know, could we measure statistically? And I failed.

• 1:38:21AJ Gentile?

  Failed.

• 1:38:22Speaker 03

  Well, the reason is simply that a thousand records are all correlated with each other. So in effect, it's one record.

• 1:38:29AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:38:29Speaker 03

  And you can't get good statistics out of a, a single example. And yes, it was a warm summer in Ukraine and they survived the Russian onslaught. In fact, they were exporting electricity at the time and, um, uh, but it wasn't something I could say here, statistical proof. I couldn't do that, but in every other regard, it would have been a success.

• 1:38:55AJ Gentile?

  Did you go back and talk to Ted again? Thank him?

• 1:38:59Speaker 03

  Cause. Uh, no, I never entered into that state again. And, and I've been reluctant since then too. Excuse me. I felt some, maybe some of the same trepidation you spoke to, like, I shouldn't be playing around with this. It works too well. And somebody wrote to me, a viewer wrote to me and said, "Do you realize that because of that heat wave, some people died from the heat?"

• 1:39:30AJ Gentile?

  I didn't consider that.

• 1:39:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I thought, well, maybe there are unintended consequences and I don't know entirely what I'm doing. And, but it wasn't as if I had ongoing communication

• 1:39:45AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:39:45Speaker 03

  with him. And I haven't felt that kind of contact and I haven't tried to cultivate it either.

• 1:39:53AJ Gentile?

  And you initiated that, so it's not like he invaded your consciousness.

• 1:39:57Speaker 03

  Right. I was, you know, at that time, hoping to have it. And when it happened and when it worked, I I began to think, well, maybe it's me. Maybe I'm the one doing it. And I don't know, but I just felt like it's it's better left

• 1:40:17Speaker 03

  to other people, or that my role is still as an educator and a communicator and I don't need to try to win the war.

• 1:40:28AJ Gentile?

  I totally agree. Even if it was you, you probably don't want that responsibility.

• 1:40:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:40:36AJ Gentile?

  You've been in this space for a long time. And how do you handle, I know you handle criticism very well now, because you've been doing it a long time. Were you ever angry?

• 1:40:46Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:40:47AJ Gentile?

  You were. I'm surprised to hear you say that so quickly.

• 1:40:51Speaker 03

  Well, I don't get angry easily.

• 1:40:53AJ Gentile?

  No, you don't. I mean, nowadays, critics attack you and it just rolls off.

• 1:40:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:40:59AJ Gentile?

  But there was a time where you were frustrated with academia or mainstream?

• 1:41:02Speaker 03

  Well, it made me sick. Literally, they were trying to, I had spent 10 years at Berkeley. I was a graduate student from 1970 to 1980, when I got my doctoral degree. And they were trying to take it away from me. I was very angry and it affected my health, of course, as well. It never occurred to me to try to punish those people. I was just struggling to

• 1:41:33Speaker 03

  Protect my reputation because even parapsychologists in the parapsychology community, they wanted to, I was being attacked so heavily, they didn't want to have anything to do with me at the time. My, my application for membership in the parapsychological association was rejected initially.

• 1:41:54AJ Gentile?

  For, on what grounds?

• 1:41:56Speaker 03

  Because of the controversy that I got a doctoral degree at Berkeley and, and people were saying, "He's incompetent, he shouldn't have gotten the degree," the whole thing. You know, it was, became a major point of focus. I filed a libel suit.

• 1:42:12AJ Gentile?

  So you have no, do you have any allies at that point?

• 1:42:15Speaker 03

  Yes, of course I had some allies, like my professors.

• 1:42:20AJ Gentile?

  Oh, right. What about personal, were there personal costs or their personal support?

• 1:42:26Speaker 03

  Well, I, you know, it affects you inwardly when that happens. I, I felt mortified and I felt a little bit embarrassed to show myself in public. And, you know, Arthur Young had predicted it will take you six years to undo all the damage.

• 1:42:45AJ Gentile?

  And he was right.

• 1:42:47Speaker 03

  It, it was six years later when I launched the Thinking Allowed Television series.

• 1:42:52AJ Gentile?

  Arthur was right again.

• 1:42:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:42:56AJ Gentile?

  It's interesting that your mom was an actress.

• 1:43:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:01AJ Gentile?

  Very outward, then becomes a yoga instructor.

• 1:43:03Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:43:04AJ Gentile?

  And very inward.

• 1:43:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:06AJ Gentile?

  And you kind of had a similar path where the criminology and sociology is very outward.

• 1:43:09Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:43:10AJ Gentile?

  And then parapsychology is very inward.

• 1:43:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:12AJ Gentile?

  Did you get that from her?

• 1:43:14Speaker 03

  Well, now that you mention it, I, I think that balance was very important. My mother always used to say to me, "Moderation in all things, including moderation."

• 1:43:30AJ Gentile?

  I just thought it was very interesting.

• 1:43:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:36AJ Gentile?

  So you wrote a 95-page essay. Can you tell us what the Bigelow Prize is? I mean, in Vegas, everybody knows the name Bigelow.

• 1:43:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:46AJ Gentile?

  Can you tell us about that? And why did you enter that contest?

• 1:43:49Speaker 03

  It was very strange.

• 1:43:52AJ Gentile?

  Okay, I'm ready. I love strange.

• 1:43:54Speaker 03

  Well, I got the news. Robert Bigelow is sponsoring a contest, Life After Death. And I thought to myself, well, there are a lot of smart people who will enter that competition, people in the universities who are studying, like University of Virginia, where they do a lot of work in that area. Surely, one of those people is bound to win. And I knew Leslie Kane.

• 1:44:23AJ Gentile?

  You did?

• 1:44:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'd interviewed.

• 1:44:25AJ Gentile?

  Oh, I guess you would have, yeah, because this is 2021.

• 1:44:28Speaker 03

  Well, this would have been 2020.

• 1:44:30AJ Gentile?

  2020, okay.

• 1:44:30Speaker 03

  But I launched the YouTube channel in 2015, and Leslie had been on as a guest. And so I reached out to her. I said, Leslie, it's perfect for you. You should enter this contest. And she wrote back and said, well, I happen to be one of the judges.

• 1:44:47AJ Gentile?

  Oh.

• 1:44:48Speaker 03

  And she said, furthermore, you should listen to this interview that Robert Bigelow did, I think it was with George Knapp, on radio or TV. She gave me a link, and I listened to it. And she said, he's already predicting that you should enter the contest. And I listened, and George Knapp, I think it was George Knapp, was saying, who should enter your contest? And he said, well, people like Jeffrey Mishlove should enter, people who've been studying this their whole lives. And I thought to myself, gosh, you know, that's...

• 1:45:31Speaker 03

  How can I enter because there's so many people who would be much better at it than me?

• 1:45:38AJ Gentile?

  Not true.

• 1:45:39Speaker 03

  But, um, how can I not?

• 1:45:43AJ Gentile?

  How can you not?

• 1:45:45Speaker 03

  So, so I, I did and, and I struggled with it. It wasn't an easy essay to, to write. I had help.

• 1:45:54AJ Gentile?

  Why was Bigelow so interested in after death?

• 1:45:57Speaker 03

  His wife had, had died and he'd been through a lot. Uh, his, you know, he had set up this aerospace business and then in AIDS, not AIDS, COVID. COVID came along and the governor of Nevada had basically ruled that he had a non-essential business. He had to let all of his employees go and the, the business, the aerospace company, to my knowledge, has never recovered.

• 1:46:26AJ Gentile?

  I used to drive by every day on the way to work and there was the ghost town.

• 1:46:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:46:31AJ Gentile?

  It was just a big yellow building. No one's there.

• 1:46:33Speaker 03

  He still maintains a skeleton staff, but, uh,

• 1:46:37AJ Gentile?

  But he had personal tragedy.

• 1:46:38Speaker 03

  And then he had, you know, personal tragedies. I think a grandchild had committed suicide and

• 1:46:45AJ Gentile?

  And his son.

• 1:46:46Speaker 03

  His wife had died and he had, earlier in his career, had launched the National Institute of Discovery Science and they were big into UFOs and extraterrestrial intelligence, but, and then at this point, he said he wanted to shift. He wanted to, he couldn't do both UFOs and life after death. So he wanted to study life after death and launching the competition would be his entry in, into that arena.

• 1:47:17AJ Gentile?

  And he, he asked for your help?

• 1:47:21Speaker 03

  Well, he, indirectly, I didn't know him at that point.

• 1:47:25AJ Gentile?

  But he knew you, so now

• 1:47:27Speaker 03

  He knew of me, yeah.

• 1:47:29AJ Gentile?

  You were the name, though.

• 1:47:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:47:31AJ Gentile?

  So you got to work.

• 1:47:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think maybe we had spoken once or twice by that time and

• 1:47:39AJ Gentile?

  Well, when, when, when, when did you make the decision to say, okay, I have to enter this?

• 1:47:44Speaker 03

  Well, I talked it over with my wife. And she has said, "Of course you have to."

• 1:47:49AJ Gentile?

  Of course you have to.

• 1:47:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was reluctant at first.

• 1:47:53AJ Gentile?

  Why?

• 1:47:54Speaker 03

  Uh, because I felt there were other people who were far more qualified.

• 1:47:59AJ Gentile?

  You don't give yourself enough credit. You've, you've, you've been, you've talked to every legend in this field.

• 1:48:05Speaker 03

  It's true. I, I have, in that regard.

• 1:48:08AJ Gentile?

  Who has interviewed more people than you?

• 1:48:10Speaker 03

  Well, maybe you have, for all I know.

• 1:48:12AJ Gentile?

  This is episode 11. You've done 1,500.

• 1:48:16Speaker 03

  Well, there are people who have done more, but, uh, in any case, doing interviews isn't the same as researching, doing, uh, experiments, publishing in scientific journals. I, I was more of a popularizer than an original researcher. It's not as if I have hundreds of scientific publications to my name. I don't.

• 1:48:42AJ Gentile?

  So you have, you have a few peer-reviewed papers out there?

• 1:48:44Speaker 03

  I, I have a few. And, and there are people who have hundreds and who, who know this field back and forth and, uh, some of them entered the competition and some of the people I thought were sure to win didn't even enter. I guess they felt maybe they were too old or something.

• 1:49:04AJ Gentile?

  So, um, so Janelle says, "You gotta do it."

• 1:49:07Speaker 03

  I gotta do it.

• 1:49:08AJ Gentile?

  And you, what's your approach to the essay?

• 1:49:12Speaker 03

  Well, I decided if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it to win.

• 1:49:16AJ Gentile?

  Attaboy.

• 1:49:18Speaker 03

  And so I, I cut back on my other projects, uh, uh, including the YouTube channel.

• 1:49:25AJ Gentile?

  We noticed.

• 1:49:26Speaker 03

  And, and I focused myself nearly full-time, uh, for six months to work on it. And I had some good friends who would read over my drafts. My first draft was terrible. And I, I completely had to discard it and, and start over. Uh, but I finally, you know, got into the groove and, uh, I realized also that I wrote to the Bigelow Institute and said, "Can I include, uh, video segments in the interview?" Because I had a big video library about it. And they said, "Yes, you can." So I think I was the only person who did that.

• 1:50:08Speaker 03

  And, and of course, the, the ground rules for the competition fit me very well because they said, what they wanted was an essay that would be as if you're taking a case to a jury in a courtroom. So I had my criminology background.

• 1:50:25AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 1:50:26Speaker 03

  And I could approach it that way as a criminologist. And they said, you know, firsthand testimony, and I had a big library of firsthand testimony. And in particular, I realized I had done an interview long ago, but I had the video with one of the world's great scientists, Francis Crick, the man who invented or discovered the Helix property of DNA.

• 1:50:56AJ Gentile?

  Yes, we know who it is.

• 1:50:57Speaker 03

  He sort of opened up.

• 1:50:58AJ Gentile?

  You interviewed him?

• 1:50:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:00AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 1:51:01Speaker 03

  And I, and he had written a book called The Astonishing Hypothesis, in which he said, "I'm going to set out to prove that consciousness is generated by the neurons of the brain." He said, "It hasn't yet been proven." And I have him on tape saying, "You know, the religious people might be correct. Consciousness might exist outside the brain completely, and we might actually survive the death of the physical body." So I was able to include that video clip in, in the essay. I thought that was one of the strong points. Plus, all the testimony that I had from many, many people who had had personal

• 1:51:45Speaker 03

  experiences, plus my own story.

• 1:51:48AJ Gentile?

  That's why those scientists didn't go in the contest. They saw you were going to be there with Francis Crick, and they said, "Oh shit, we got, we got nothing. We can't compete with that."

• 1:51:56Speaker 03

  They didn't know.

• 1:51:57AJ Gentile?

  Come on. So, it's 95 pages, which I, which I read. It's brilliant. Can you break down the thesis, the nine categories?

• 1:52:06Speaker 03

  Well, the basic idea is that there are many independent lines of evidence, all pointing in the same direction. It could be out of body experiences. It could be near-death experiences. It could be the reincarnation research. It could be mental mediumship or physical mediumship, which is really extraordinary. Trumpets flying around the room.

• 1:52:31AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 1:52:33Speaker 03

  It could be what is called instrumental transcommunication, or sometimes called electronic voice phenomena. People who communicate with their deceased relatives using a computer or a radio, or they have these devices, what are they called now? Voice?

• 1:52:53AJ Gentile?

  Spirit boxes.

• 1:52:54Speaker 03

  Spirit boxes, and the like. Of course, there are lots of TV programs that feature these

• 1:53:01AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:53:02Speaker 03

  Things, and some of it's legitimate.

• 1:53:04AJ Gentile?

  Some of, most is bunk, but some is legitimate. Edison and Tesla are both trying to build one of those.

• 1:53:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right. Some, but not all.

• 1:53:11AJ Gentile?

  Some, but not all.

• 1:53:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, and so

• 1:53:13AJ Gentile?

  But, but there's the white crow theory. I think for, wasn't it William James?

• 1:53:18Speaker 03

  William James.

• 1:53:19AJ Gentile?

  With the white, white crow?

• 1:53:20Speaker 03

  Who was my intellectual hero.

• 1:53:22AJ Gentile?

  Is he?

• 1:53:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:24AJ Gentile?

  So, do you remember his saying about the white crow?

• 1:53:25Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 1:53:26AJ Gentile?

  Please.

• 1:53:27Speaker 03

  Well, William James put it this way, he said, "If you want to disprove the claim that all crows are black, you only need to find one white crow."

• 1:53:38AJ Gentile?

  That's right.

• 1:53:39Speaker 03

  And then he said, "Mrs. Piper, the medium he was working with is my white crow." And he took a lot of heat for that, too, because the scientific establishment was in no way interested in, and here he is, a Harvard professor

• 1:53:55AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 1:53:56Speaker 03

  Saying this medium can really do it, she's talking to the dead, and, and coming up with information that she couldn't possibly have known, and people were attacking him viciously for that.

• 1:54:11AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:12Speaker 03

  But he stuck to his guns.

• 1:54:13AJ Gentile?

  He did. I think I remember reading about him saying, you know, "What about these other mediums?" And he said, "There's no stick big enough to not, you know, to knock them around." But, he, he didn't like them in this space, but he liked his particular, his white crow.

• 1:54:27Speaker 03

  Well, you know, I think, if I remember the quote about no stick big enough?

• 1:54:32AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:54:33Speaker 03

  It wa, it was this, that he, he was, this is in the pages of Science, the main American scientific publication, where he's arguing about mediumship, and the people are calling him a crank.

• 1:54:46AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:54:47Speaker 03

  And, and, and all sorts of insults, and he wrote, responded by saying, "The quality of the criticism is so poor."

• 1:54:57Speaker 03

  Their arguments are so beneath the dignity of a scientist to argue the way they're arguing that any stick will do. You can, this dog is such a vile creature that any stick you can find is, you can beat the dog with. It doesn't matter. You, you hold mediumship in such contempt.

• 1:55:23AJ Gentile?

  I wouldn't want to debate William James on anything. He's one of the great thinkers of our time.

• 1:55:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would agree.

• 1:55:30AJ Gentile?

  So in your paper, we've got all these things pointing in the same direction. I'd like to know what happened when you found out you won?

• 1:55:39Speaker 03

  Well, I got a phone call from the Bigelow Institute and they said, Robert Bigelow would like to speak with you. He will call you tomorrow morning at 9:30. So I'm sitting by the phone.

• 1:55:58AJ Gentile?

  Sitting by the phone. Twenty-eight.

• 1:56:03Speaker 03

  And, and it was 10 o'clock. Finally, I hadn't heard from him.

• 1:56:08AJ Gentile?

  That was a long half hour.

• 1:56:09Speaker 03

  So, so I called them.

• 1:56:12AJ Gentile?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:56:13Speaker 03

  I called them back. I said, Robert Bigelow was gonna call me at 9:30. What happened? And they said, oh, he hasn't come into the office yet. He'll call you when he gets in.

• 1:56:22AJ Gentile?

  This is killing you.

• 1:56:24Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:56:26AJ Gentile?

  Is, is, you're right, is Janelle home?

• 1:56:28Speaker 03

  Janelle was at home.

• 1:56:30AJ Gentile?

  She's just telling you to calm down. He's gonna, it's gonna be calm down.

• 1:56:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and so I'm, finally he calls and I'm, we're talking and he says, well, you won first prize. And Janelle is peeking her head in the door. She's, and so I hold my finger up like this. One finger. I held it up. And, and she goes to tell my stepson Louis, who lives with us. She says, Jeff won first prize. And Louis says, well, how do you know? And she said, well, he held up one finger. And Louis says, well, maybe that doesn't mean.

• 1:57:07AJ Gentile?

  I know, but.

• 1:57:08Speaker 03

  But it was.

• 1:57:09AJ Gentile?

  Wives know.

• 1:57:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. She knew.

• 1:57:12AJ Gentile?

  So how did you feel though? I mean, talk about validation.

• 1:57:15Speaker 03

  It was validating, but I can tell you this.

• 1:57:20Speaker 03

  I knew.

• 1:57:21AJ Gentile?

  You did?

• 1:57:22Speaker 03

  I knew.

• 1:57:23AJ Gentile?

  You were so humble going in and so-

• 1:57:25Speaker 03

  But by that time, I- it was the way I knew I was gonna have a dream that night. When I had the dream of the magazine, that changed my life. I had absolute certainty at that point, that I was gonna win.

• 1:57:41AJ Gentile?

  I went and looked up, um, how many judges voted for your paper. Do you remember how many?

• 1:57:46Speaker 03

  All of them.

• 1:57:47AJ Gentile?

  Unanimous.

• 1:57:47Speaker 03

  All six, yeah.

• 1:57:48AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 1:57:51AJ Gentile?

  What did you do when you hung up the phone?

• 1:57:54Speaker 03

  Um, well, I was elated, obviously. It was, I, I think the first thing I did was write to the people who had helped me, and, and even to my professors back in-

• 1:58:08AJ Gentile?

  Of course.

• 1:58:09Speaker 03

  And thanking them.

• 1:58:11AJ Gentile?

  This is five decades of work.

• 1:58:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:58:15Speaker 03

  It was a, uh, a validation for me for taking a huge risk.

• 1:58:22AJ Gentile?

  Yes, it was. And a lot of personal cost.

• 1:58:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:58:25AJ Gentile?

  Health, to your health, litigation.

• 1:58:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:58:29AJ Gentile?

  Is this one of those proudest moments? Is this a victory? Is this triumphant moment for you? When you win?

• 1:58:36Speaker 03

  Sure. Yeah. And, and of course, the financial benefit was appreciated.

• 1:58:43AJ Gentile?

  How much did you win?

• 1:58:44Speaker 03

  It was half a million dollars.

• 1:58:45AJ Gentile?

  That's real. That's, that's green money.

• 1:58:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. It was, uh-

• 1:58:50AJ Gentile?

  I think if there was no money, it would have felt just as good.

• 1:58:55Speaker 03

  Probably. It probably would. Many people get awards with no money attached-

• 1:59:01AJ Gentile?

  Yes, they do.

• 1:59:02Speaker 03

  And they feel good.

• 1:59:05AJ Gentile?

  You were further attacked by mainstream when you won that prize.

• 1:59:10Speaker 03

  Um, a little bit.

• 1:59:13AJ Gentile?

  It, I, I guess it didn't matter at that point? I mean, cause I followed it.

• 1:59:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. I'm not aware of really any serious attacks. The, the Bigelow competition was seriously attacked.

• 1:59:26AJ Gentile?

  That's really what it was.

• 1:59:27Speaker 03

  It was about, but I noticed that the, the critics, for the most part, focused not on my essay, but on some of the others, because there were 29 different prizes awarded. The judges said that there were so many good essays that were contributed.

• 1:59:46Speaker 03

  That they urged him to award more prizes than he had originally agreed, and he did.

• 1:59:53AJ Gentile?

  Are those available to the public to read?

• 1:59:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:59:56AJ Gentile?

  Oh, that's, that's gonna be...

• 1:59:58Speaker 03

  They are all online.

• 2:00:02AJ Gentile?

  How comfortable were you with life after death going into that? Were you convinced it's a real phenomenon?

• 2:00:11Speaker 03

  It gave me a chance to look back and remember how this all started for me. I had kind of almost forgotten about my dream of Uncle Harry, but as I looked back on it, I could see from the benefit of decades that my whole life turned around after that dream. And I thought, that's the power of the afterlife. You can find it in examples of people who have been deeply touched by these experiences. They changed their life permanently. And there were many other examples. Bishop Pike in California, who was the Episcopalian Bishop of California, resigned.

• 2:00:56AJ Gentile?

  That's right.

• 2:00:57Speaker 03

  As a result of his communications with his son, who had died. Elizabeth Kubler Ross became one of the most influential people in America as a result of communications that she had had with a former patient of hers who had deceased at that point. That these things are life-changing, and that to me was more proof than you would ever find in a scientific experiment if you look at how it's touched the lives of people.

• 2:01:36AJ Gentile?

  You think Uncle Harry would have been proud of you for winning that prize?

• 2:01:40Speaker 03

  Well, he sure had a lot to do with it.

• 2:01:42AJ Gentile?

  He certainly did.

• 2:01:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. I can't say that I've felt much contact with Uncle Harry since that dream. I think the important lesson for me is you don't have to have psychic experiences all the time. They come when they come. They're really not under our conscious control very much. A little bit, a little bit. But you only need one or two good ones in your life, and it can put you on a path where you can appreciate, you know, they're all around us. It's happening all the time to millions of people every day, but it's not that important for a human being.

• 2:02:27Speaker 03

  It's important to know that they're real, but, you know, we have other responsibilities in our life than to be psychic.

• 2:02:35AJ Gentile?

  Well, when those messages come, it's important to listen, I think.

• 2:02:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:02:40AJ Gentile?

  Let's take a quick break, and when we come back, talk about synchronicity and what's on the other side.

• 2:02:47Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:02:48AJ Gentile?

  All right, we'll be right back. Well, let's lighten the mood and talk about death. You spend a lot of time documenting and talking about other people's paranormal experiences, and then you had one of your own that fascinates me, and I think it's the archetypal synchronistic resonance, which sounds like a mouthful, but those words are meaningful.

• 2:03:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:03:17AJ Gentile?

  What is that, and what happened?

• 2:03:18Speaker 03

  Well, it wasn't a single event. It was a whole series of events. And it all started for me, as I recall, I was traveling. I was visiting Europe.

• 2:03:35Speaker 03

  And I was on my way to the city of Cordoba, Spain, which happened to be the city, a very unusual city, because it was at one time Muslim.

• 2:03:49AJ Gentile?

  Uh huh.

• 2:03:50Speaker 03

  And there still is a huge 14th century mosque.

• 2:03:55AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:03:56Speaker 03

  Still, still there, in which after the Christians took over and expelled the Muslims and the Jews from Spain, they built a huge cathedral in the middle of the mosque.

• 2:04:08AJ Gentile?

  They did that.

• 2:04:09Speaker 03

  And, but it's this, also, it was an ancient Roman city. There still exists a bridge from Roman times.

• 2:04:17AJ Gentile?

  Oh, yeah?

• 2:04:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:04:19AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:04:20Speaker 03

  And there is a statue in, in the city of the Roman philosopher, playwright Seneca and scholar, Seneca, and I wanted to visit for that reason.

• 2:04:36AJ Gentile?

  Why? What is it about Seneca? I don't know if, if he's that well-known. I mean, he is to me, because I love that part of history. Is this, is the statue you're talking about of one man or two?

• 2:04:47Speaker 03

  One.

• 2:04:48AJ Gentile?

  Just Seneca?

• 2:04:49Speaker 03

  One, one man. And it doesn't look, there are other statues of Seneca that look very different.

• 2:04:53AJ Gentile?

  They do. And sometimes there's two men in those.

• 2:04:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. There, well, there was the Seneca the Elder and Seneca the Younger.

• 2:05:01AJ Gentile?

  And some are Seneca and Nero.

• 2:05:02Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 2:05:03AJ Gentile?

  Some are Seneca and Nero.

• 2:05:05Speaker 03

  And Nero.

• 2:05:06AJ Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:07Speaker 03

  Uh huh. Well, he was Nero's tutor and Nero's advisor, and I knew nothing about Seneca back in my early days of the TV program, when I did an interview with Dr. Marty Rossman.

• 2:05:25AJ Gentile?

  Wow.

• 2:05:26Speaker 03

  Who was a hypnotherapist, medical doctor hypnotherapist. And he was going to demonstrate the hypnotic technique. At that point, we did a half hour interview for broadcast and then we did another hour for the DVD, or not even DVD, videotape, VHS market in those days. And so in that session, he hypnotized me. And he told me, "You are going to experience your inner healing advisor."

• 2:06:03AJ Gentile?

  Inner healing advisor?

• 2:06:05Speaker 03

  That's what he said. He said, "It could be anything. It might be a chipmunk."

• 2:06:09AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:06:09Speaker 03

  "It might be some figure will come to you. Just let it come, whatever." And I'm, I'm already at that point, I've been inducted, I'm in a light hypnotic trance. And I experienced this, a person walking toward me, wearing a toga. And I thought to myself, "Oh, good. I want to improve my public speaking abilities. So I want you to be the famous orator, the Greek orator. It's not Democritus, but..."

• 2:06:44AJ Gentile?

  Demosthenes?

• 2:06:45Speaker 03

  Demosthenes, that's right. "You, you be Demosthenes and, and help me with my public speaking." And he said to me, "I'm not Demosthenes. I'm Seneca." And that took me...

• 2:07:03AJ Gentile?

  Did you say who?

• 2:07:04Speaker 03

  Well, I remembered when I was an undergraduate at the University of Wisconsin, in the library building, they had emblazoned in the, um, actual, in the concrete of the building, the names of famous people from ancient times. And Seneca's name was up there. So I knew there was a famous person from the ancient world named Seneca. I was that much, I know. Very little else. I think I probably knew that, um, a few other minor details. And...

• 2:07:42Speaker 03

  At that point, in my hypnotic state, silently, I said, "Well, since you're Seneca and since you're here, what do you want me to do?" And he said, "Study my life."

• 2:07:54AJ Gentile?

  Oh, beautiful.

• 2:07:57Speaker 03

  And then I came out of the hypnotic state, I had this silly grin on my face, it's all captured on video.

• 2:08:05AJ Gentile?

  And this is captured on video?

• 2:08:07Speaker 03

  The whole thing.

• 2:08:08AJ Gentile?

  Roman historians, right now, are very excited about what you just said.

• 2:08:12Speaker 03

  Well, you know, I reported to him my experience was, and then I began studying the life of Seneca and realized what an amazing historical figure he was. He was not only a playwright and a philosopher, and had scientific writings as well, but he literally ran the Roman Empire for five years.

• 2:08:42AJ Gentile?

  Yes, he did.

• 2:08:43Speaker 03

  And it was considered, I think they called it the Silver Age of Rome. He was considered a very good administrator.

• 2:08:52AJ Gentile?

  Yes, when he was tutoring Nero.

• 2:08:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, so here I am, traveling to Seneca's birthplace, and I get an email from a fellow named Engen. Now, his first name is, he became the co-author with me.

• 2:09:13AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:09:14Speaker 03

  And I'm stumbling over his first name, but it'll come.

• 2:09:18AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:09:19Speaker 03

  Brendan Engen.

• 2:09:20AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 2:09:21Speaker 03

  Brendan Engen wrote to me, out of the blue, I had no idea who he was, and he said, "I'm writing to you because my girlfriend bought me a psychic reading for my birthday."

• 2:09:34Speaker 03

  And it happened to be with Kevin Ryerson, who was a good friend of mine, a trance channeler, featured by Shirley MacLaine in her book Out on a Limb.

• 2:09:44AJ Gentile?

  Yep.

• 2:09:45Speaker 03

  Kevin and I were good buddies. And this psychic reader told me that in a past lifetime, I was a good friend of Seneca's, I think Lucretius. Seneca wrote his epistles to Lucretius. And he said that you were Seneca in a past life. And so I'm reaching out to you because maybe we were together in a past life. And I thought, how interesting. Here I am about to visit the birthplace of Seneca and...

• 2:10:21AJ Gentile?

  How could he know this? Could he know this?

• 2:10:24Speaker 03

  No. No, he just knew my email. He found my email.

• 2:10:28AJ Gentile?

  So you weren't public, you hadn't gone public about the Seneca vision yet?

• 2:10:32Speaker 03

  Well, now, let me think. No, I hadn't gone public, but Kevin Ryerson was the trance channel who gave him the psychic reading, had also done readings with me.

• 2:10:47AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:10:47Speaker 03

  And that, I think that's the connection.

• 2:10:50AJ Gentile?

  That's it.

• 2:10:50Speaker 03

  But I've had many readings from Kevin because he was a friend. And that was his thing.

• 2:10:57AJ Gentile?

  Nice to have access to that.

• 2:10:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, as a parapsychologist, I've had a lot of psychic friends along the way. And they helped me from time to time. They've been very instrumental in crucial moments. But I didn't have any reason to think I had been Seneca in a past lifetime. And I wrote back to Brendan and said, well, it's quite an interesting synchronicity. You would write to me about Seneca right when I am about to visit the city where he was born. And it's an example. I said, this is all synchronistic. And...

• 2:11:33AJ Gentile?

  And are you talking about like Jungian synchronicity?

• 2:11:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:11:36AJ Gentile?

  Just things that just...

• 2:11:39AJ Gentile?

  How would you describe it? He had the scarab story.

• 2:11:41Speaker 03

  Well, and there are some Jungians who have taken real issue with me over my use of the term synchronicity, because I was using it in a kind of vague, generic sense, like, "I'm on my way to see Seneca and I get the email from you." And I had a Jungian who wrote back and said, "No, it must be at the very precise second."

• 2:12:03AJ Gentile?

  Ah, I don't know. I think that's debatable.

• 2:12:05Speaker 03

  I think so too. But in any case, I suggested that there's something Jungian, something synchronistic. That Seneca is a, obviously, a psychic influence on me. It doesn't mean I was him. But I thought it was interesting. And Brendan and I stayed in touch. And eventually, other synchronicities began to occur between Brendan and myself. For example, when I was doing radio interviews on KPFA long ago, I interviewed a fellow who had written a book called "The Looking Glass God," all about Taoism, the yin yang

• 2:12:50Speaker 03

  symbol.

• 2:12:51AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 2:12:52Speaker 03

  And he had this book, "The Looking Glass God," and I owned it. And I must have sold it at one point or another, because Brendan told me, he was in a bookstore in Walnut Creek, California, and this book, as he's walking along the aisles of the bookstore, fell on his head. And he opened it up, and it's "The Looking Glass God," and he saw my signature in it, that I had once owned that book.

• 2:13:21AJ Gentile?

  Your book?

• 2:13:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:13:23AJ Gentile?

  And you were already in touch?

• 2:13:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:13:26AJ Gentile?

  Does he see this as a sign, or...

• 2:13:28Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. He said, "This is significant." He said, "We need to write an article." Or "you need." He said, "You need to write an article about what you just told me, about the synchronistic connections that occur and are related to possible past-life influences."

• 2:13:48Speaker 03

  Of this sort, and I said, well, we could write it together. And, and we did in, I think, two thousand seven or so. We published a jointly written article in the Journal of Humanistic Psychology called Archetypal Synchronistic Resonance, in which we talked about the idea that people who lived in, in the ancient past can influence us, and we can have a whole series of synchronities that support that influence. It doesn't necessarily mean it was a past life. It was an alternative to thinking about reincarnation, actually.

• 2:14:28AJ Gentile?

  I thought it was very, a very interesting take, is that it's not necessarily reincarnation, it's just influence.

• 2:14:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:14:35AJ Gentile?

  Something about vibration in the universe, conscious, something, something deeper.

• 2:14:41Speaker 03

  And I've subsequently met other people who have felt the same way about different historical figures. Jean Houston, who was another mentor of mine, a person I greatly admired, who said, for her, it was Proclus.

• 2:14:56AJ Gentile?

  For Pro, oh, that's amazing.

• 2:14:58Speaker 03

  Proclus, who was another Neoplatonic philosopher, the last of the Neoplatonic philosophers. And she said, I, I would be, as a child, just, this phrase would come into my head, hocus pocus, I am Proclus.

• 2:15:15AJ Gentile?

  I think if, I have a few of those myself. I have, I don't have really spoken about them, but I think we all do. We find ourselves sketching a name, writing a word, saying a phrase. I think it's coming from somewhere.

• 2:15:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think I have a similar relationship with William James.

• 2:15:33AJ Gentile?

  Do you?

• 2:15:34Speaker 03

  Well, Kevin Ryerson would maintain that I was William James in a past life, and I've even had regressions to try and explore that. So far, nothing has convinced me that I was William James, but Walter Semcue, who got a lot of his information from Kevin Ryerson and wrote the book Return of the Revolutionaries about people's past lives that he had identified as a chapter in which he describes why he believes I was William James. And I gave him permission to do that, provided he state that I don't accept it.

• 2:16:14AJ Gentile?

  Why don't you accept it?

• 2:16:15Speaker 03

  Because I don't have any concrete memories of having been William James.

• 2:16:22AJ Gentile?

  Okay, but that doesn't mean you weren't.

• 2:16:24Speaker 03

  No, it doesn't mean I wasn't, and it just doesn't mean I was, that's all.

• 2:16:29AJ Gentile?

  What's his argument? What's his chapter about?

• 2:16:31Speaker 03

  Well, he talks about, you know, how my career follows William James.

• 2:16:37AJ Gentile?

  From, from science to mysticism and so forth?

• 2:16:40Speaker 03

  That, you know, and I can see, there's a kind of logic there. I can see why I might have been. I'll go that far, and I'm curious, you know, because he's my hero, and that's why I think I couldn't have possibly been him, because he's my hero.

• 2:16:56AJ Gentile?

  I don't know. He, the establishment attacked him, he fought back and won?

• 2:17:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:00AJ Gentile?

  There's a lot of similarities.

• 2:17:02Speaker 03

  There are similarities.

• 2:17:04AJ Gentile?

  How do you think William James would think about you today?

• 2:17:09Speaker 03

  Well, I, if I asked myself about that, I would say, he'd probably say that he's definitely doing things that I would like to do, but he's, he's a more shallow person.

• 2:17:25AJ Gentile?

  That you're a more shallow person?

• 2:17:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. William James was a deep thinker. I don't purport to be.

• 2:17:33AJ Gentile?

  I don't think you give yourself enough credit. Um, William James famously... Said there's a problem with the scientific method where a personal experience is just as valid as any type of science.

• 2:17:46Speaker 03

  Yes, he did.

• 2:17:47AJ Gentile?

  Any objective reality

• 2:17:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:49AJ Gentile?

  Is fact, is part of science.

• 2:17:52Speaker 03

  Right. I subscribe to that wholeheartedly.

• 2:17:55AJ Gentile?

  You're continuing his project.

• 2:17:57Speaker 03

  I, I, yes, I would, I would say that I am. And I would say that he was a sickly man his, his whole life. He was always visiting health spas because he had stomach problems and the like. And the one thing that I did experience under hypnotic regression, I began to have stomach pains and, and so I would come out, I didn't want to go any further with the regressions. And one other little piece of information that came to me, I've never had it validated. If you can find anything that validates it, then I would regard that as evidential, is

• 2:18:38Speaker 03

  that when he was younger, people called him Billium instead of William.

• 2:18:43AJ Gentile?

  I didn't know that.

• 2:18:44Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know if it's true, it's just something that came to me.

• 2:18:48AJ Gentile?

  That would be interesting

• 2:18:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:18:50AJ Gentile?

  To find that out.

• 2:18:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:18:52AJ Gentile?

  Someone would know that.

• 2:18:53Speaker 03

  If, if there's any evidence that he was ever called Billium instead of William, I, I would say that, that would count in favor of that I might have been William James or at least had access to that piece of information somehow.

• 2:19:06AJ Gentile?

  Have you had any regressions that convince you you were someone?

• 2:19:10Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:19:11AJ Gentile?

  None?

• 2:19:12Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:19:13AJ Gentile?

  You had an interesting theory about soul energy, which I kind of agree with, is that maybe William James, maybe you are a little bit William James and he's, he's spread out across a few people.

• 2:19:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, there, there are many people who have said, and including people today, who say, he speaks to them from the afterlife even now. So I, I'm inclined to think that we all have access to what William James called the cosmic reservoir of consciousness, or the Akashic records. We all have access to all knowledge.

• 2:19:50AJ Gentile?

  So are we all one consciousness and these bodies are just a small expression of the same field?

• 2:19:59Speaker 03

  I'm in favor of that

• 2:20:00AJ Gentile?

  I am too.

• 2:20:01Speaker 03

  Perspective.

• 2:20:02AJ Gentile?

  So.

• 2:20:05AJ Gentile?

  What happens when we die? And I don't, I don't mean the tunnel and the, all of that just yet. I mean, at that moment, when the lights go out, what's going on inside?

• 2:20:15Speaker 03

  Well, consciousness persists, but I've experienced the total loss of consciousness in deep sleep. It could be like that. You might go into a, a deep unconscious state until at some point you're awakened and maybe you're in another body or in another plane of existence. Or maybe you're conscious all the way through. George Harrison made a point of saying he wanted to be conscious through the death process and there's, you know, that he really worked toward that. So there's, and his wife, Olivia, at the time, said, "If you had been in the room at the moment he died, there was such light, you could have photographed it."

• 2:21:01AJ Gentile?

  That's, I mean, that's another shared death experience.

• 2:21:03Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:21:04AJ Gentile?

  That, um, that there's a, there's a lot of documentation for that, specifically the light, the room changing.

• 2:21:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:21:11AJ Gentile?

  Seeing figures.

• 2:21:12Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:21:15AJ Gentile?

  I'm specifically thinking about Raymond Moody's work.

• 2:21:18Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:21:19AJ Gentile?

  Who studied shared death experience for a while and then had one with his siblings when his mother passed away.

• 2:21:25Speaker 03

  I didn't know that.

• 2:21:26AJ Gentile?

  His father arrived and they all saw him. They said, "Dad's here." They all saw it. They said the room changed shape.

• 2:21:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:21:32AJ Gentile?

  So I think there's something to that.

• 2:21:33Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:21:36AJ Gentile?

  You're not afraid?

• 2:21:38Speaker 03

  No, absolutely not. I'm totally comfortable with the idea that I'll die and I'm gonna be 80 this year, so it could happen soon, for all I know. And I'm, uh, I'm sure as I get closer, there will be trepidations. I was in the hospital earlier this year and was told I might have to undergo a very dangerous procedure and I, I was nervous about it. It turned out that they didn't need to do it at the end of the day, but, uh, you know, I'm sure I'll approach actual death with a certain amount of trepidation, but at the moment, I can say I look forward to it.

• 2:22:18AJ Gentile?

  I don't know if Janelle would be as optimistic, but when did you, when did that switch happen for you? We're all afraid of it.

• 2:22:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's sort of biological.

• 2:22:29AJ Gentile?

  It is, and...

• 2:22:30Speaker 03

  Survival instinct.

• 2:22:32AJ Gentile?

  You know, I just, I just wrote an episode where I called it, "A Curse That We Know That We're Going To Die, But It Can Also Be A Gift Because You Can Seize The Moment."

• 2:22:43AJ Gentile?

  When did you stop being afraid?

• 2:22:45Speaker 03

  At some point, um, as I began thinking about, probably while I was writing my first book, The Roots Of Consciousness, I began to appreciate the idea, it's called, um, how does it go? "Ontogeny Recapitulates Philogeny."

• 2:23:07AJ Gentile?

  I'm stunned.

• 2:23:08Speaker 03

  Well, it means the development of the embryo recapitulates the entire evolutionary history of the species.

• 2:23:16AJ Gentile?

  It kind of does.

• 2:23:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, we start out as a single-celled organism, an embryo, and, and then we gradually evolve, the early stages of the embryo, we begin to look a little bit like a fish or a reptile, and, until we become fully human. And it dawned on me, if I just think of my whole body, the entire history of evolution exists. In effect, even this body, even this physical form, is the product of a billion years of evolution.

• 2:23:49AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 2:23:50Speaker 03

  And I began to perceive of myself as, as actually a being who has been around at least a billion years.

• 2:23:58AJ Gentile?

  You can feel that?

• 2:23:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:24:03AJ Gentile?

  There's all these stories about famous people dying and seeing something, saying, "Oh, my God," or, "I can't believe it." My brother was with my father when he passed a few years ago, and he said, "Dad got up and saw something."

• 2:24:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:24:19AJ Gentile?

  There are stories, another episode I'm working on, of people who are near death, or close to brain death, or dementia, that suddenly sit up.

• 2:24:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:24:31AJ Gentile?

  And are perfectly, terminal lucid.

• 2:24:33Speaker 03

  Terminal lucidity. It happened to my mother.

• 2:24:35AJ Gentile?

  It happened to your mother?

• 2:24:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:24:38AJ Gentile?

  Well, I don't want to get, I don't want to pry, but how did...

• 2:24:42Speaker 03

  Well, I wasn't there at the time. My wife, Janelle, was with her in the hospital, very close to her death, maybe two weeks before. And my mother had Alzheimer's. She was out of it completely. You couldn't have an intelligible conversation. She was always very sweet. I will say that. And a pleasure to be around. But she sat up with Janelle. She was bright. She was lucid. She had a lengthy conversation with Janelle, talking about the family and many, many other detailed things.

• 2:25:21AJ Gentile?

  How long was the conversation?

• 2:25:22Speaker 03

  Maybe an hour or two.

• 2:25:24AJ Gentile?

  That's a long one.

• 2:25:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:25:26AJ Gentile?

  Did she call you?

• 2:25:28Speaker 03

  Well, she told me afterwards. I don't know where I was at the time, but you know, I got a complete rundown of it. And two weeks later, she was dead.

• 2:25:40AJ Gentile?

  What do you think is happening there? What are we seeing? Why are we lucid?

• 2:25:44Speaker 03

  Well, it seems to be a way of, or reinforcing, it's evidence that I would say reinforces William James' theory of consciousness, which is that the brain doesn't generate consciousness. The brain functions more like a radio or television receiver. The signal is coming from elsewhere. Consciousness, I would say, is actually everywhere.

• 2:26:13AJ Gentile?

  It's like a filter.

• 2:26:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:26:16AJ Gentile?

  That were filtered into these individual consciousnesses.

• 2:26:19Speaker 03

  Right. And at some point, when the brain starts breaking down just enough, the larger consciousness can kind of come through. The brain is no longer keeping it out because if we were in a state of cosmic consciousness where you have 360 degree vision and you know everything, everywhere, all the time, you couldn't survive.

• 2:26:44AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 2:26:44Speaker 03

  You couldn't pay the rent.

• 2:26:46AJ Gentile?

  No.

• 2:26:46Speaker 03

  Pay the mortgage or feed the family. We have to filter it out.

• 2:26:52AJ Gentile?

  This answers the hard consciousness question. This makes sense.

• 2:26:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:26:57AJ Gentile?

  Terminal lucidities happens to people where their brains are damaged beyond repair.

• 2:27:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:27:01AJ Gentile?

  There's tumors, there's no way it could work. Someone who's never spoken their whole life could get up and start singing.

• 2:27:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:27:10AJ Gentile?

  It's, I don't think there's an explanation for that just yet. It's, William James is as close as I think we can come.

• 2:27:17Speaker 03

  It's as close as we can come, to my knowledge.

• 2:27:20AJ Gentile?

  How do you, what is your take on soul groups, life between lives?

• 2:27:28AJ Gentile?

  I don't know if you've ever read Michael Newton's work. His...

• 2:27:31Speaker 03

  Michael Newton's work is quite interesting. I haven't really studied it in depth. I ought to. But what I can say is FWH Myers, Frederick William Henry Myers, who wrote the classic book on life after death in 19, it was published in 1903, posthumously, called Human Personality and Its Survival of Bodily Death. It's a classic. Massive book incorporating all the findings developed by the Society for Psychical Research since it was founded in 1882.

• 2:28:14Speaker 03

  So 20 years worth of scientific investigation and brilliantly put together.

• 2:28:22Speaker 03

  He maintained that...

• 2:28:27Speaker 03

  Where did we start? What was your initial?

• 2:28:30AJ Gentile?

  Soul groups.

• 2:28:31Speaker 03

  Soul groups. Well, okay. Thank you for getting me back on track. After he died, as I say, the book was published posthumously. Some thirty years after he died, he communicated entire books from the other side through a medium named Geraldine Cummins, who did automatic writing.

• 2:28:55AJ Gentile?

  Oh, I've got to look into this.

• 2:28:56Speaker 03

  And he wrote a book called, he wrote two books through her. And now the title is on the tip of my tongue. It'll come again. But in those books, he's describing what the afterlife is like.

• 2:29:13AJ Gentile?

  He is? That's his?

• 2:29:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:29:16AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:29:17Speaker 03

  He's describing, and I think of it as one of our best descriptions because he's the guy who spent his adult life pioneering the study of the afterlife. And even before he died, he wrote that, you know, things are going on on the other side. They are doing their experiments. And then he came back and there was something called the cross correspondences that the Society for Psychical Research studied for decades, in which Myers and others, other deceased members of the Society for Psychical Research were coming back and proving that

• 2:29:58Speaker 03

  it was them because what they would do is create very unique messages that were poetic. Myers was a poet and a Greek scholar, among other things. And so they create these complex messages, but they would deliver part of it through a medium, let's say in North America, part of it through a different medium in Europe, and part of it through another medium in India. And all of the mediums were instructed, "Send your peculiar messages that make no sense whatsoever to the Society for Psychical Research," and they would put the messages together and see that they interlock with each other, and it's the same communicator

• 2:30:42Speaker 03

  coming through. So that was Myers was doing this, and then some after thirty years in the afterlife dictating entire books.

• 2:30:52AJ Gentile?

  Well, how did he, what did he see over there? How did he describe it?

• 2:30:55Speaker 03

  Well, group souls. That's where we were going.

• 2:30:57AJ Gentile?

  Yes.

• 2:30:58Speaker 03

  He said, "Yes, there are group souls, and you get to different levels." He said, "We all are part of larger soul groups." Some of them, he said, "might have twenty members, some of them might have a thousand or several thousand that we are, we share soul groups with."

• 2:31:17AJ Gentile?

  And soul communities that soul clicks?

• 2:31:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:21AJ Gentile?

  Because...

• 2:31:22Speaker 03

  And Walter Semcuk, who wrote Return of the Revolutionaries, maintained, and I think most parapsychologists reject his work out of hand because they don't like past-life regressions, and they don't like mediums. They like working with young children. But...

• 2:31:42AJ Gentile?

  Why young children? Because of the reincarnation stories?

• 2:31:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, the reincarnation story is not going to be contaminated.

• 2:31:50AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:31:51Speaker 03

  If it's a young child who hasn't learned about these things because, you know, they don't know how to read yet or something of that sort. But an adult who comes up and remembers a past life in psychotherapy, and I once was a past-life therapist, I know it's a very powerful form of therapy, but I think sometimes it's evidential of a real past life, but often it is not. In any case...

• 2:32:23Speaker 03

  Once again, you can remind me where we're

• 2:32:24AJ Gentile?

  Soul groups.

• 2:32:25Speaker 03

  Soul groups.

• 2:32:27AJ Gentile?

  I think about it because sometimes you meet somebody and you just have a connection to them.

• 2:32:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, and Walter Semcue maintained that there are soul groups and that the people who were the founding fathers of the United States of America, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson and the like, were members of a soul group and they come back and they meet each other in the next lifetime. And he felt he was John Adams.

• 2:32:54AJ Gentile?

  He did?

• 2:32:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:32:56AJ Gentile?

  Does he have a feud with whoever Jefferson is?

• 2:32:59Speaker 03

  Well, he, yes, as a matter of fact.

• 2:33:01AJ Gentile?

  Does he really?

• 2:33:02Speaker 03

  Well, there was another person he identified as Thomas Jefferson and they knew each other and had some debates and arguments about it all, yes.

• 2:33:14AJ Gentile?

  It's interesting because those two men died on the same day.

• 2:33:16Speaker 03

  Yes. And as I recall, John Adams' last words when he died were, "Jefferson still lives."

• 2:33:26AJ Gentile?

  That's true. That's what he said. Bitter to the end.

• 2:33:29Speaker 03

  Well, but it's unclear whether he was bitter about that he was dying because he didn't know Jefferson was dying on the same day, or if he actually saw Jefferson in the afterlife, still living.

• 2:33:45AJ Gentile?

  That's right. I hadn't considered that.

• 2:33:48Speaker 03

  That could be the other interpretation. It's not clear.

• 2:33:52AJ Gentile?

  Do you believe that our souls, when we go back, that we make a choice in that consciousness? Like, when we come back, we choose our body, we choose what we're going to try to learn, to bring back?

• 2:34:05Speaker 03

  I think we have many options. Whether we're going to come back, maybe which planet we're going to come back to, or which realm of existence. I think there are other levels of reality apart from physical reality, and even within physical reality, surely there are many other planets and life forms that we could inhabit.

• 2:34:29AJ Gentile?

  So that means there's a lot of souls. If you're talking about, you're talking about the universe?

• 2:34:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:34:36AJ Gentile?

  Okay.

• 2:34:37Speaker 03

  And I think there, you know, what we call the universe, meaning the three dimensional or four dimensional spacetime that we inhabit is one possible level. I think there are many other levels of reality, but even within this level, many, many options. So I, I think there are lots of choices. Some people may never come back. They'll just move on to higher levels or different levels.

• 2:35:03AJ Gentile?

  So you can choose to not come back?

• 2:35:05Speaker 03

  I think what happens is that you, the way people phrase it, you are going to be with your guides. Now, what that means could be just other parts of yourself or your larger self. And you're going to make a, you're going to have a conversation about it and you'll make certain determinations. Like, it occurred to me, if I had been William James and I was going to come back, I might have said, I'd like to be a bit healthier this time around.

• 2:35:39AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:35:40Speaker 03

  And, and I might like to look better.

• 2:35:45AJ Gentile?

  Are you saying you're more handsome than, than William James?

• 2:35:48Speaker 03

  Well, maybe.

• 2:35:50AJ Gentile?

  You are.

• 2:35:51Speaker 03

  I, I kind of, you know, I have my vanity and I suppose, I think that I was probably. And I think he felt, I don't think he felt good about how he looked. I could be wrong about that, but that's my impression. Because his father selected his wife for him.

• 2:36:11AJ Gentile?

  Oh.

• 2:36:15Speaker 03

  Like he needed his father to do it.

• 2:36:17AJ Gentile?

  Right.

• 2:36:18Speaker 03

  That I wasn't going to have that happen.

• 2:36:20AJ Gentile?

  No. No, I'm just thinking that.

• 2:36:22Speaker 03

  But I think possibly Janelle was Alice James. There's, there's some, some reason to think so. Walter Semcue and Kevin Ryerson thought so.

• 2:36:34AJ Gentile?

  What reason?

• 2:36:35Speaker 03

  What they, one of the things. That Semcuk felt is that very often, people maintain the same basic facial structure from lifetime to lifetime. And you see that, for example, in his work with birthmarks, you know, that people have birthmarks that might be the death wound of a previous lifetime. So, some physical things carry from lifetime to lifetime. And I actually think, especially if you see photos of me in my early days when I had a beard, I kind of resembled William James, but better looking. And I kind of imagine, if I were to fantasize

• 2:37:20Speaker 03

  about it, that William James would have liked that. He might say, "This time around, I'll be a more shallow person, but healthier and better looking, and still very interested in the things that interest me." Intelligent enough to make some progress.

• 2:37:35AJ Gentile?

  And a lot of those personality traits can carry over as well.

• 2:37:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:37:40AJ Gentile?

  So, you do have that same, I mean, you're carrying, continuing his project.

• 2:37:45Speaker 03

  I think intellectually, I feel very compatible with William James, but really, he's far deeper thinker than I am.

• 2:37:53AJ Gentile?

  Well, what do you think, why do you think you chose this path? Why did you make this decision? Because you're very impactful. You've impacted millions of lives.

• 2:38:03Speaker 03

  I wonder about it myself. And because, you know, my father ran a furniture store in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, and I imagined I'd probably grow up and run a furniture store.

• 2:38:17AJ Gentile?

  Sure.

• 2:38:18Speaker 03

  And then somehow, you know, what can I say? LSD must have had something to do with it. Because I was, you do have a kind of mystical experience under LSD. You begin to experience other realities.

• 2:38:38AJ Gentile?

  Can confirm.

• 2:38:39Speaker 03

  You see colors swirling around you, and you can look at another person, and you begin to see their face change, as if you're looking at their past lives. And all of these things made me very curious, what's going on here? And after having had...

• 2:38:58Speaker 03

  In 1968, my first LSD experience, I was incredibly curious about all of this and began exploring mysticism. And my best friend, as I got into Berkeley, was a guy who thought he could explain how LSD worked in the brain and how it imitated the serotonin molecule and took the place of serotonin in the nerve synapses of the brain, but didn't do what serotonin did, did other things.

• 2:39:30AJ Gentile?

  That's right. I guess a lot of psychedelics or serotonin just kind of flipped.

• 2:39:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:39:35AJ Gentile?

  So psychedelics could be allowing us to tap into the universal consciousness?

• 2:39:41Speaker 03

  I think in a way, yes.

• 2:39:45AJ Gentile?

  What did Terrence McKenna think about that?

• 2:39:48Speaker 03

  Well, I hate to speak for Terrence.

• 2:39:51AJ Gentile?

  I understand.

• 2:39:52Speaker 03

  Because he was so eloquent and he could put things into such beautiful phrases that I can't do.

• 2:40:00AJ Gentile?

  But how do you feel?

• 2:40:02Speaker 03

  I think he would be in agreement.

• 2:40:04AJ Gentile?

  Is that when I hear DMT stories, even across cultures, they're all seeing the same entities, wood elves, all this stuff. It sounds kind of silly until you line up all the cases together and it's all pointing to one thing, that there's a field around us that we can tap into.

• 2:40:24Speaker 03

  And you know, David J. Brown wrote the book on DMT entities. I interviewed him and he had an experience reminiscent to Ted Owens. The mantis being appeared to him when he was under DMT and he says operated on his brain, which is the same claim Ted Owens made. And he's told me, I have it on video, he said, "There isn't a day in his life when he doesn't think about that experience."

• 2:41:00AJ Gentile?

  You haven't been interested in a DMT experience?

• 2:41:03Speaker 03

  I haven't had one. I have had ayahuasca, so I suppose.

• 2:41:08AJ Gentile?

  Oh, you have?

• 2:41:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have had ayahuasca, but not these days. People inject DMT.

• 2:41:13AJ Gentile?

  Right, right.

• 2:41:14Speaker 03

  Pure DMT. I haven't done that.

• 2:41:16AJ Gentile?

  What did you see during your ayahuasca journey?

• 2:41:19Speaker 03

  Well, now that you mention it, I had quite unusual experience. It was as if I was in ancient Egypt and I was singing praises to the god Horus, that Horus is the most beautiful of gods. And it was a very profound connection to Horus, who was an amazing deity.

• 2:41:45AJ Gentile?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:41:46Speaker 03

  If you look at the history of all deities, Horus is in many ways, you could say, the predecessor of Jesus Christ.

• 2:41:53AJ Gentile?

  You certainly could.

• 2:41:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:41:55AJ Gentile?

  So... Didn't you have a sort of a flashing image of ancient Rome?

• 2:42:01Speaker 03

  I have had that. I don't know if it was on that occasion of ayahuasca. I think it might have been just, I think, maybe even in a normal state of consciousness for a split second, for just a split second, I felt like I was in Nero's palace.

• 2:42:22AJ Gentile?

  Did you see it or did you feel it?

• 2:42:25Speaker 03

  It was more of a feeling and it was so fast that it's hard to capture it all, but it felt real. It felt like I was there.

• 2:42:34AJ Gentile?

  What was the emotional feeling? There's a reason I'm asking.

• 2:42:38Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 2:42:39AJ Gentile?

  Is because at the end of Seneca's life, he was bickering with Nero.

• 2:42:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:42:45AJ Gentile?

  Because Nero was building the big palace then, when Seneca had to kill himself. So I'm just wondering if you appeared there and you were annoyed, like, look at all this opulence.

• 2:42:56Speaker 03

  No, it was so quick. It was only simply that I was there, I was really there, and then it ended.

• 2:43:02AJ Gentile?

  So lucky. So ancient Egypt, were there entities or guides there during that journey?

• 2:43:08Speaker 03

  I can't say that there was. It was just a deep sense of connection with how magnificent Horus was as a deity. And subsequently, I have...

• 2:43:27Speaker 03

  Felt that connection with Horus. In fact, I happened to own a sarcophagus, a tiny little sarcophagus, about two, three feet, and it was used, it's from ancient Egypt, it goes back to the time of Moses, and it was a sarcophagus for a falcon.

• 2:43:49AJ Gentile?

  Wow, where did you get that?

• 2:43:51Speaker 03

  In Israel, on my first trip to Israel, in a little Arab shop, they, you know, was interested in the antiquities, and they pulled it out of the back room and said, "Look at this." It was very expensive, but I

• 2:44:06AJ Gentile?

  I bet.

• 2:44:07Speaker 03

  I had to have it, and I subsequently had it looked at by archaeologists who have told me this is the real thing.

• 2:44:15AJ Gentile?

  Did you feel any energy, any motion from that object?

• 2:44:19Speaker 03

  Well, something must have gotten me to pay many thousands of dollars for it.

• 2:44:26AJ Gentile?

  Because I think there's something to that, to a residual energy with objects or locations. Did you visit Seneca's villa, his death place, outside Rome?

• 2:44:35Speaker 03

  No, I have not. Is it still in existence?

• 2:44:39AJ Gentile?

  It is, it's about three, it's mile marker three on the Appian Way outside Rome.

• 2:44:43Speaker 03

  Oh my.

• 2:44:44AJ Gentile?

  It's pretty remarkable.

• 2:44:45Speaker 03

  Have you been there?

• 2:44:46AJ Gentile?

  I have.

• 2:44:47Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:44:47AJ Gentile?

  Yeah, that's where he was, he was killed and dead.

• 2:44:50Speaker 03

  Oh my.

• 2:44:51AJ Gentile?

  There's so many, he's a great story.

• 2:44:53Speaker 03

  It never occurred to me to go there or to visit William James' grave either.

• 2:44:59AJ Gentile?

  Oh, I would, I, I bet you'd feel something at those places.

• 2:45:02Speaker 03

  I imagine, I might, yeah. But I would always doubt myself. I think I would say, you know, "You're making this up because of the history that you have and things that people have said."

• 2:45:16AJ Gentile?

  That's okay. Even if you are, that's okay.

• 2:45:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:45:20AJ Gentile?

  To make it up.

• 2:45:20Speaker 03

  It would be. But on the other hand, I've thought, you know, "I'm here, I'm living this life, I don't have to revisit those lives."

• 2:45:28AJ Gentile?

  So what was your mission? When you came back, your soul sent you here to achieve something. Have you, have you done it?

• 2:45:35Speaker 03

  I think so. I think, you know, when I expressed to Ted Owens, when he said, "What do you want to do with this power?" And I said, "I want to be a communicator to the public at large, the mainstream culture, about the realities of esoteric, paranormal, mystical world." And that's been, certainly for the last 10, 12 years since I launched the YouTube channel, I've been doing it, and even long before that, in the radio and television work I did, that's been my career as an adult with some detours along the way.

• 2:46:14AJ Gentile?

  Some fun detours.

• 2:46:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:46:16AJ Gentile?

  We normally end with plugs, but we'll link to those, but this is too important. For people listening who are having experiences, or fear of death, or things like that, do you have any message for them? What should they do? How should they think about it?

• 2:46:31Speaker 03

  Well, normally, when I tell people about my life, I think if there's a lesson in it that I can share with people, it's that if you decide that you want to become the best version of yourself, which would be, you know, being in touch with your purpose, your intellect, that the idea being that we are born each with a deep purpose, and it's going to be different for everybody, but if you want to get in touch with that part of yourself and live it, the universe wants you to do that, and the universe will

• 2:47:12Speaker 03

  help. The universe will open doors for you, so that you can do that.

• 2:47:18AJ Gentile?

  So just be open to the messages and follow

• 2:47:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:47:22AJ Gentile?

  the signs?

• 2:47:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. That seems to be what happened for me, and I think, I think it's largely true, some but not all will be able to do that.

• 2:47:34AJ Gentile?

  Anything else that you want to say or impart before we go?

• 2:47:39Speaker 03

  Well, I would like to say that if, among your viewers, if there are people who think they'd like to dedicate their lives to the study of the paranormal, that we've created a new program at the California Institute for Human Science, where you can get, for the first time since the program at John F. Kennedy University shut down in the 1980s, for the first time in the United States, you can get a doctoral degree or a master's degree with a concentration or specialization in parapsychology. And I'm one of the directors of that program, and I'm currently actually teaching.

• 2:48:22AJ Gentile?

  You are?

• 2:48:23Speaker 03

  I'm teaching a course right now on the practical applications of PSY, which is the word parapsychologists use for ESP and psychokinesis.

• 2:48:35AJ Gentile?

  Well, we'll link to all of that. We'll put it all on screen so people can find you. Jeffrey Mishlove, thank you so much for coming in. This has been a joy.

• 2:48:41Speaker 03

  Thank you. It's been a joy for me, too.

• 2:48:43AJ Gentile?

  Bye, everybody. That was the great Jeffrey Mishlove. Fifty years of research and 1,500 interviews in parapsychology. He's a legend. And here's what we know. Jeffrey's PhD in parapsychology from UC Berkeley is real. He earned it in 1980, the first and only parapsychology degree ever awarded by an American university. Skeptics try to revoke it. Jeffrey filed a lawsuit and won, twice. The Bigelow Institute Prize is also real. Robert Bigelow funded a $500,000 award for the best scientific essay arguing consciousness survives death. Jeffrey's six judges voted unanimously. Now for the bold stuff. Jeffrey told us he reached

• 2:49:27AJ Gentile?

  out, in a hypnagogic state, in late 2022, to the consciousness of Ted Owens, who died in 1987. He asked Ted to keep Ukraine warm so civilians could survive Russia's attacks on the power grid. He says 1,000 temperature records broke across Europe in early January 2023. That is documented. Now whether Ted Owens caused it from wherever Ted is now, that's a different question. The Challenger warning claim, Jeffrey's 2000 book, The PK Man, documents the Christmas Eve call in detail. The o-ring failure that actually, or allegedly, caused the Challenger to crash is well documented. The call is something only Jeffrey knows. But if that call happened, and I believe it did, I think Jeffrey's still carrying some

• 2:50:11AJ Gentile?

  guilt about it, which is only natural. And here's what I keep coming back to: terminal lucidity. People with completely destroyed brains from late-stage Alzheimer's sit up hours before death and have a final, clear, fully-present conversation. Jeffrey's mother didn't, as sharp as she'd ever been. She talked to his wife two weeks before she died for about two hours. This is a real phenomenon, and nobody has a good explanation for it. William James argued in 1898 that the brain doesn't generate consciousness. It filters it, like a radio receives a signal it didn't produce. Terminal lucidity looks a lot like the filter breaking down just before it goes dark.

• 2:50:52AJ Gentile?

  Jeffrey Mishlove is the most credible living archivist of 50 years of paranormal research, full stop. He knew the players: Targ, Puthoff, Valet, Owens, McKenna, Monroe, everyone. Whatever you make of his claims, he's a primary source for a part of science that the mainstream would like to ignore. And when the mainstream pushes back on something, it's worth taking seriously. Jeffrey's full archive is at NewThinkingLoud on YouTube. His book on Ted Owens is The PK Man on Amazon, and the Bigelow Essay is free. Search Bigelow Institute Consciousness Studies and you'll find it. Now, on the channel, I've covered SRI and Project Stargate in a bunch of episodes, as well as the afterlife and the episode about the skull experiments. Links will be down below.

• 2:51:34AJ Gentile?

  Until next time, be safe, be kind, and know that you are appreciated.

• 2:51:56Speaker 06

  I played for Libya in Area 51. A secret code inside the Bible said I was. I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as well as music. Songs singing like I should. But then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth, my friends. And it never ends, no it never ends.

• 2:52:33Speaker 06

  I fear the crackhead and got stuck inside Mel's home with MKUltra. I'm being only too aware. Did Stanley Kubrick fake the moon landing alone on a film set? Were the shadows people there? The Rockwell aliens just fought the smiling man, I'm told. And his name was Cold. And I can't believe I'm dancing with the fish. Head to fish on Thursday nights with AJ. And where my zombie feet are through the night?

• 2:53:14Speaker 06

  All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth. So the one-bird zombie feet are through the night.

• 2:53:39Speaker 06

  The Mothman sightings and the solar storms still come. To have got the secret city underground. Mysterious number stations, planet circle to Project Stargate. And what the dark watchers found.

• 2:53:58Speaker 06

  In a simulation, don't you worry though. The black nights had a lot of toll on me so. I can't believe I'm dancing with a fish. Head to fish on Thursday nights with AJ too. And one more time for me all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth. So one more time for me all through the night. Head to fish on Thursday nights with AJ too. And one more time for me all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth.

• 2:54:42Speaker 06

  So one more time for me all through the night.

• 2:54:59Speaker 06

  Girlie loves to dance. Girlie loves to dance on the dance floor. Because she is a camel. And camels love to dance when the feeling is right on wasting time. Girlie loves to dance.

• 2:55:34Speaker 00

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