A Spurs Fumble, CarusoMania, Brunson’s Mega-Rise and a Knicks Appreciation With Tim Legler and Brian Koppelman

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Tim Legler LIVE on Netflix to react to the Thunder taking a 3-2 series lead against the Spurs before recapping the Knicks’ road to the NBA Finals (1:16). Then, Brian Koppelman hops on to discuss what it means for the Knicks to make the Finals for the first time since 1999 after sweeping the Cavs (01:09:22). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Tim Legler and Brian Koppelman Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers Uber Eats makes last-minute gifting easy. https://www.ubereats.com/ The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary.

• 0:28Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals, finally, is here. We are down to four teams. Think you know it'll go down. Take your shot with FanDuel, get closer to the action. And as you know, I've been telling you for years, FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same-game parlay for a shot at a better payout, or try live betting and jump into the action after tip-off, or just follow me and my picks, because every once in a while, I'll put them on social. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21-plus select states or 18-plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, or call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat. Connecticut.

• 1:39Bill Simmons?

  All right, the Bill Simmons Podcast, we are live after game five. Our friend Tim Legler is here. Kind of a ghostly massage here for him.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  It's like, yeah, definitely, man. It's my Queen album cover look.

• 1:54Bill Simmons?

  I like it. Well, matching the weirdness, weirdness we just had. I think it's kind of fitting, because it, it feels like, I don't know if the Spurs can beat OKC, too, or we have a lot to discuss. Wanted to mention, I have new rewatchables coming. That came out on Monday. We did Animal House. You must love Animal House. That must have been one of yours from way back when. But you can catch that, and you can hear Legs. What's the name of your podcast? The All Things Podcast?

• 2:18Speaker 01

  All City.

• 2:19Bill Simmons?

  All City Podcast, I'm blanking. Yeah, yeah. And of course, you can see Legs on the, on the finals, which are coming up. All right, game five. Here's my big takeaway, just a missed opportunity for the Spurs.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:33Bill Simmons?

  I felt like, you know, it's 2-2. A.J. Mitchell gets scrapped. Jalen Williams gets scratched pretty much like an hour before the game, although I feel like we're expecting a little bit. And then SGA comes out and was really bad for the first six minutes of the game. He said after the game, he said that was like the worst first quarter he's had in his career. He's probably exaggerating. And the Spurs, I just never really felt the urgency. They showed that, that, that one halftime speech when it was like 87-71, whatever it was, they're down 16. And Wemby's got the guys around and then they came out and played with some passion for, I don't know, four minutes. But I don't know, man, did they think this was a 19 game series? What's going on with them?

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Here's what I think, a couple of things. I think first of all, you're right about the opportunity. You know, listen, you, you've got to win another game there to win the series, right? And so you look at this situation, you don't have Jalen Williams, you don't have A.J. Mitchell. It's like their first, first game they're going to get, get them like, kind of like, wow, you know, this is a bit, lot of pressure on us here. Cause if we don't win this game, we're going to have to go to San Antonio with, with the prospect of being closed out. It's an awful lot of pressure on the home team in a 2-2 situation. And you're missing a couple of guys, so some guys are going to have to step up. So you would think like San Antonio's approach to be like, this is a game, not only that, you know, we can get, we have to get. That's kind of how I think their approach should have been going in. They probably felt that way.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  They just didn't play well enough in this situation to get it done. And I think one of the things that jumps out right away is you look at Victor Wembanyama. And a lot was being talked about like during the game that, you know, he's kind of quiet, passive, didn't get a lot of shots. He's got a lot of touches where he wants it. He had some free throws, so his numbers weren't like horrific early. But the thing that I'm thinking about while I'm watching that bill is this, when you look at the other. Top guys in this league, just go with like the all NBA team if you want to and even guys on the second team like those are guys because of the nature of their game like physically the you know their their dimensions they can get theirs when they want to get theirs a lot of

• 4:44Speaker 01

  times that's not always the case for Victor Wembanyama and it's not going to be he's seven foot you know four five whatever you want to call it he's slightly built

• 4:53Bill Simmons?

  Seven six seven

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Whatever you want to call it yeah they say I every time I hear a game with Victor Wembanyama on it they they say as they say his height differently so I I don't even know let's I I typically go with seven five because that's what it looks like to me um he can't just go get it when he wants to because of that sometimes it works against him if if he's not catching the ball in ideal spots if some of their actions aren't designed so he can get a quick roll to the rim from a decent um distance not 28 feet where he's got to take two three strides to where he can get chipped and bumped along the way if he can't find those actions those spaces or even some of the early stuff sometimes when he gets some threes going because it's early in

• 5:39Speaker 01

  transition he can't just go put it down use his live dribble cross guys up have a counter move off the dribble and get what he wants go to a fadeaway jumper or an up and under in the mid-range or whatever it's just harder for him so there's gonna be nights when that offense isn't just gonna be automatic and most of those guys in this league when you look at Jokic you look at Shay um you know you look at Luca you look at Cade the Cade Cunningham's of the world the Jalen Browns of the world when you look at those Anthony Edwards when you look at those guys like and look they're not always going to shoot great but they can operate in spaces where they can go get a shot for themselves most of the time if they're not blitzed and it's not that way for Victor Wembanyama so there's gonna be nights when that offense is gonna be a little

• 6:23Speaker 01

  inconsistent now he affects the game defensively he can rebound he can do all those things but there are nights man where you need your best player to go get you

• 6:33Speaker 01

  30 and and he is not going to be able to do that whenever he wants because of the way he's built and that's kind of one thing I noticed about this game early the way he was being defended how hard it was for him to get touches where he wants it he didn't really get involved in a game offensively in a game like this with what's at stake he kind of needed Victor Wembie to be a lot better than he was offensively.

• 6:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're talking about the concept of feeling somebody throughout a game, right? The best part is in the league, you just kind of feel them, even if they're not having the best game, they're still around, they're in it. What's weird is they did this in game three and they made a big deal after and game four, Pop came in and yelled at us after and we had to go back to being us and we had to and it's like, I thought you guys learned your lesson already that if you're just the the three-point shooting team and Wemby's 25 feet from the basket, that this isn't going to really work. Now, you could also argue they lost the game because they gave up almost 130 points, but I'm with you like OKC, because they were able to capitalize on some of the turnovers and some of the

• 7:38Bill Simmons?

  some of the weirdness of the game and were able to patch together some stretches even when SGA wasn't playing well. I just, when I watch it, because I obviously love watching Wemby as as do you, I just don't really understand how they use him sometimes. Like when you talk about like, how do you get him more involved? They were talking on the broadcast about get him in the paint, see, see what happens when he's in the paint. Is it really that hard to get him near the paint? Like, you could start him under the basket and have him like drift up, you could have him kind of near the block trying to back in, but they always seem like they fall in this habit of he's just at the top of the key. His three wasn't going tonight. I didn't feel like he had his legs tonight either. He was 0 for

• 8:19Bill Simmons?

  5 from 3. So for me, it's like, are you doing what OKC wants you to do? And the answer is yes. This is they're they're really hoping going into this game that you're going to play this way with him and that's that's how it played out.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  I think there are ways to get him the ball and look, they know this. Mitch Johnson's a great coach. There are ways to get him the ball. Sometimes it happens a little bit more organically for them. They mandate it, whatever, maybe his determination to get it. I love him personally. When he sets ball screens inside of, you know, 23 feet, 22 feet. He sets elbow ball screens. He sets ball screens. Where he starts at the elbow and sort of heads out toward the sideline. Sets it so that when he spins out of it, it's like one stride. It's easier to come off the screen and just quickly throw it to him as he's first starting to move toward the rim. And then it's very difficult for the rotating defender to do much with it because of where he's catching the ball. If you just think he's gonna run down the floor, go into the post area and just kind of put his hand up and get it where he wants.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  You can see time and time again, he gets into wrestling matches down there, even against smaller guys. It's not that easy to do and sometimes I think their guards don't give him enough time. When he gets a switch, he's got a smaller guy. He, you know, a lot of guys in this league, like if it's Jokic, let's just use as an example that obviously wants to touch the ball in the post as well. It's a guy like Jokic, he gets the switch. He goes somewhere, you know, near the lane and then he just stops, camps out and uses his weight. And strength and just holds the guy there, puts a hand up and you can just lead him and he catches everything. You know, Wemba Yama's got good hands too, but it's harder for him to, to just hold his position and keep.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Um, keep that defender at bay that's trying to back into him and they're trying to use their back into his thighs and like dislodge him. Now he can get there, you've got to give him an extra count and the problem is against OKC. That means the ball handler needs a little bit more time, the pass needs a little bit more time. The problem is they're being pressured like hell out there. So they can't just sit there and hold it and wait for Victor to get his position down there. They end up reversing it. And by the time he's now, it looks like he's ready to receive it. The ball's going to the other side of the floor. It's going to the top of the key, then to the other side. And now you're asking an awful lot. Now is he gonna flash from one side? Through traffic, get bumped three times and go catch it on the other side of the lane? That, that's just not his game.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  That's not his physical profile to play that way. So the quick hitters off the ball screens when he sets the screen closer to the rim. And he dives quicker, the ball hits him like right away as he's moving. He can catch it, he can do something really effective with it. And actually, that's where he draws most of his fouls. I didn't see him involved in a lot of actions like that in this game. He was catching it a lot. And then turning and facing and trying to figure out what he wanted to do against guys off the dribble. Um, and that's just not going to be there every night for him. The way that it is other elite scorers in this league who, who can get lower. They can set you up, get into a step back jumper from wherever they want.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  They can cross you up, counter, maybe even cross you up and then go back between their legs the same direction. And get like a little pull up and operate in a one on one space. That's just not going to be there all the time for, for Victor, and it wasn't really tonight. And they needed more from him and, and you know, at the same time, Oklahoma City was getting really good performances from some guys. That had to be big tonight, one of which you, you know, you had texted me earlier and said, McCade's got to have a great game. Seven for 19 is not a great night, but it was very.

• 11:51Bill Simmons?

  Second half, yeah, second half.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Very impactful.

• 11:54Bill Simmons?

  It's well, and that's your younger guys usually at home are going to be a little bit of a safer bet. I wrote down. Maybe playoff experience does matter, question mark. So here's the thing with playoff experience, because this was the thing. This was the thing we always talked about during this season with the Spurs. They're too young, they're not ready yet. Well, what does that mean? You think like, you're too young, that means, oh my God, there's so much pressure. I don't know what to do. I've never been here before. It's like, almost like how it would be like with a quarterback, like Drake May in the playoffs last year. Ooh, um. And then, well, we have Dave Jacoby here on the Zoom for some reason, trying to figure out.

• 12:35Bill Simmons?

  This is exciting.

• 12:38Bill Simmons?

  But, uh, but when I think about playoff experience. Sometimes it's just kind of knowing what to do in a game like this, right? He's 22 years old. It's like, hey, they don't have Jalen Williams. They don't have A.J. Bichel. Come out in the first half and have like the game of your life, have like your ESPN classic game. And that's the you thing. I feel like when he's 27, 28 years old.

• 13:03Bill Simmons?

  You just approach this game a little bit differently, but I don't listen.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Definitely. No, I was just gonna say, no, you're right. I, I look at the, like, the Dylan Harper component to this. He's such an X factor because he's so physically talented. He's a guy that can play through the pressure, the, you know, the grabbing, holding that you're gonna get against these OKC guards, particularly in the postseason. He can play through that stuff. He's just got strong shoulders, forearms. He can still get to his spots. He's got, you know, multiple speeds he plays with. I think he's a little bit like more affected when De'Aaron Fox is out there. De'Aaron Fox is running more of the show. It's almost like Dylan Harper is, is like in a different mindset. You know, in a game like this, he plays 25 minutes. He takes five shots from the field.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Dylan Harper's too good a player and he is physically too gifted against this type of defense for him to be some sort of afterthought for them offensively. He needed to be much more aggressive, had the opportunity to be aggressive. He could have made up for some of what Wemby wasn't giving you.

• 14:06Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Because not everybody on this team can play through that stuff. Harper can. He can still get where he wants to get on the floor, but he really was sort of quiet and, and passive. And he, look, he's a young player on the road in the biggest game of his life. Yeah, that probably factors into it. And some of these guys from the Thundermen have been here before. Their younger players are just a little bit older than some of San Antonio's young players.

• 14:31Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I felt, I felt like Castle in the first half was like that. Like, he was just super sloppy. And I thought was hurting them. And then in the second half, you could see he's like, you know, I'm gonna put, I'm gonna get my defense going. I'm gonna put my head. I'm gonna get to, get to the basket. And he actually had a really good second half. Harper did not, and Fox was bad. I don't, I think Fox is hurt. I don't feel like he had any lift.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 14:52Bill Simmons?

  He's four for 15. He just didn't have that snap.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  He's trying to play through it, man, and I respect that. I really do, man. You, you're not gonna sit there and, if you can go, you're not gonna sit there and watch other guys play. Like, you're, you know.

• 15:04Bill Simmons?

  Well, they need him. He's the only guy to take care of the ball.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Absolutely need him. He's, you know, had the one playoff series under his belt, you know, before. This season, this guy's like, I'm not missing this for anything, but I think you're right because he has, he has that next level quickness that gets to from point A to point B. And against a team like the Thunder, you really need that because of the way they close down driving lanes. They're so good at helping in the lane, closing out with speed to the three point line. Like he can match that speed and he doesn't quite seem like he's got all of that and it is what it is. He's gonna play through it, but you know, 33 minutes, four for 15 from the field. That that's not really typical for De'Aaron Fox. Um, for a guy that's such a natural scorer, I don't, I agree with you. I don't think he's right.

• 15:48Bill Simmons?

  Not a lot of coast to coast stuff with him.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:51Bill Simmons?

  Either. Um.

• 15:54Bill Simmons?

  With all that said, Wemby's, Wemby kinda sucked for him. Fox didn't have lift, Harper didn't really show up. And Champagne kinda kept them in the game in the first half. I kinda liked the shots San Antonio was getting at this game. They had, they missed a lot of corner threes in the second half. Um, I thought there were stretches where I didn't, I didn't love the whistle they were getting offensively. I thought they did a bunch of dumb stuff defensively and some, some of the fouls, but, um, but it was weird. They were hanging around, hanging around and it was at one point near the end of the third quarter, I think it was eight. And it was like, shit. This is, they, they're gonna steal this game. I, I've seen this before. Wemby's gonna put the superhero cape on in the fourth quarter, but OKC did a really good job.

• 16:38Bill Simmons?

  And Hartenstein, Hartenstein and, uh, Caruso and then McCain getting hot near the end. But I thought Hartenstein and Caruso, if you had to pick the number two MVP of OK, for OKC for this series. After SGA, obviously who's the MVP, who would your number two MVP choice for OKC be? Cause mine would be Caruso.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Man, it's tough. I honestly, yeah, you probably would be Caruso. The timeliness of his shooting, what he always gives you in other areas, but the timeliness of his shooting and scoring has been immense in this series. But again, you could hand pick some spots for Hartenstein too. You go, where would they be without the way he played? Um, Chet, you know, has not been anything like overwhelming offensively, pretty solid. I thought Hartenstein.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Was great in this game.

• 17:24Bill Simmons?

  He really was.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  With his, his rebounding, his, his touch, the way he makes you pay with that little push shot, which is, you know, I always refer to as releasing the doves. It's just the strangest looking shot that he has perfected and he just, he's letting, he lets the doves go like in Central Park somewhere. Like that's what it looks like. Uh, he shot one of those, by the way, over Wemba Yama on the right baseline. That, that ball must have traveled, uh, like eight, nine, 10 feet, um, above.

• 17:51Bill Simmons?

  It was like a moon shot.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  It was, and so you think about the actual distance, it was like a 12 foot shot that traveled a greater distance than most NBA three point shots.

• 18:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, the other thing I love with him, he.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  That's how, how high that ball traveled. Yeah.

• 18:07Bill Simmons?

  The other thing I love with him, well, two things. First of all, his fouls are just hard. You feel them fouls that aren't flagrants, but each one is like a foul and a half.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:18Bill Simmons?

  Um, the other thing, he gets offensive rebounds, but they always feel like they're these big, kind of quarter swinging offensive rebounds. Like he had two in a row that led to, uh, I think two threes. I'm going to say it was like an eight point game. All of a sudden it was a 13 point game just because he kept two possessions alive. Um, so there, I agree with you. I, I said this in a pot a couple of days ago, like, I thought in game one, I was like, man, they're going to play them off the floor. You're not going to be able to keep them. And now, now you watch and you go, how are they going to let this guy leave the summer? Cause he's got like the $29 million team option.

• 18:57Bill Simmons?

  Uh, J Dubs contract pumps up, Holmgren's contract pumps up. They got Lou Dort. They have to figure out, you know, they're going to be in some real tax issues. They haven't shown a huge appetite to pay it, but I don't see how you let Hartenstein, I don't see how you let him leave. I also think he'd have real value to, I don't know, eight, 10 other teams that have cap space or at least a mid level.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Definitely, because he, the one, the one thing he totally understands also is, he is the master at finding that late in the possession little pocket that he has to get to, to make himself available. When a guard penetrates, then, then maybe it's, they've already tried a couple of actions, wasn't going. Now a guy just gets downhill and it's like gonna be a bad shot that somebody's about to throw up at the rim. And then here comes Hartenstein from the baseline and he flashes right into that middle of the lane area. You know, 10, 12 feet, he catches it and he gets that soft shot out. So he bails out some of their possessions. He gives them extra possessions and he has six offensive rebounds. I don't think you can tangibly even quantify how many additional offensive rebound opportunities he creates,

• 20:02Speaker 01

  because they've got two guys trying to keep him off the glass.

• 20:05Bill Simmons?

  Right, right, right.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Other guys, guards then sneak in and run down a long one. That guard should have been there for the opponent. They're not, because they're helping chip on Hartenstein, because they're tired of watching him get two or three in a row. So that's a whole nother element to like what he brings to it, just because of his activity. And I love that your, your point about the fouls. You don't play through those for and ones against Hartenstein. He's gonna, he's gonna hit you in a way. And again, you said it's all, it's all legal stuff. He's chopping down on your arms, biceps, forearms, as guys are trying to get up. And then you're gonna feel it and you're not gonna, most importantly, you're not gonna play through it for an and one. You're gonna have to go earn them. And in a lot of cases, maybe, you know, your, your arm is like numb when you're like going up there to try to shoot.

• 20:51Bill Simmons?

  Big welt in your arm. So SGA had 32, 16 for 17 free throws, six turnovers. McCain, 18. Hartenstein was 12 and 15 and Caruso's 22 with six steals and four threes. I have two big picture questions for you.

• 21:09Bill Simmons?

  This is the basketball fan, just that after game one, which was an all time, all time, all timer. It was like, wow, buckle up. This is a series for the ages. Did we fly a little too close to the sun? Because we haven't had a good game since. The series has not been a classic. Game one had all of the everything you'd ever want. And then we've had four kinda eh, probably never watch any parts of any of these games again. Where are we with this series now? Because I'm watching, well, that'll lead to a big question number two, but I'm watching this one. Like, I really thought this was gonna be the finals, and it doesn't 100% feel that way. So why?

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Most anticipated game of the entire season without a doubt, with what's at stake in this game. Because what I said earlier, San Antonio, a lot of people, you know, believe can win the series, we're going to win the series. This is your chance. This is your chance. You know, they each split on each other's floors. Now you go, okay, this is what it sets up. This game five, you get it, you get that last home opportunity to close out the defending champions.

• 22:13Bill Simmons?

  This is what we grew up with, these awesome game fives. This is it. This is like the one that shows on NBA TV for 20 years.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  Game five is the one. And I agree with you. I mean, obviously, what all you really want as a fan, when you sit down to watch it as a broadcaster, if I'm calling the game, just give me some drama late. That's all you really ask for, man. So somebody that has to really rise up and show a lot of nerve to knock down a big shot, like some great defensive play. That's all you're asking for, man. That inside of a minute, game could go either way type of feel to it. And no, you haven't really had. You had that incredible first game. It was the greatest game any of us have ever seen in the playoffs. And you're thinking, as we all were, oh, man, we're gonna get like five or six more of

• 23:02Speaker 01

  those? Oh, it's gonna be incredible. And it's, I guess that was too hard to live up to, man. But look.

• 23:08Bill Simmons?

  It might have taken something out of both teams. Like, we've had a bunch of injuries since that game, and a bunch of guys that don't look like they're 100% anymore.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, hey, listen, at least it certainly beat what, you know, we were calling in the Eastern Conference Finals with what went on. We certainly got that same drama in game one of that series.

• 23:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you did.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  With what the Knicks had to do, 22-point deficit in less than eight minutes. And Brunson just put on an all-time show and then, you know, goes overtime, Knicks win. And then the rest is history. You know particularly how those last two ended in Cleveland. So at least, you know, these games, even though like Oklahoma City got up 10, 12, 15, 18, whatever it was. You're still sitting there going, there's enough time, Spurs are good enough and like the, the, the way the game was kind of going. You're like Spurs could make an 8-0 run here, 10-0 run. This could still get to a six-point game with five minutes to go. And they just, you know, in, in both, in both cases throughout the series, haven't been able to make that run. That really made the other team feel it outside of game one, really feel it.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  That they were going to chase you down and you're going to have to really earn this late in the game. So, yeah, I guess so. I mean, I guess from a fan's perspective. Hasn't lived up to it. I don't think anybody in Oklahoma City is bitching about that right now. They're up 3-2 and that's, that's, that's fine with them, man. They don't need to have the drama that we're describing if they can end up winning this in six or seven games.

• 24:29Bill Simmons?

  Well, that leads to question number two. We head into the series thinking this was the NBA Finals. The Knicks are just playing better than both of these teams.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:39Bill Simmons?

  It's just a fact. Now, you could say it's the, the schedule they played, but.

• 24:45Bill Simmons?

  It's really hard. I think you were there too, the 2014 Finals. Spurs Miami and the Spurs just hit that level where they just put, were playing so beautifully together. I remember being on TV back then, being like, I think the series, like in game four, like I think this is over. I think that the Spurs have kind of solved Miami and I think they've gone to another level. And, and it was just the selflessness and everything we were watching, which you just watched for four games. And if I'm them, I feel like I can beat either of these teams now. Now, we don't know if OKC, if, if JDub comes back and Mitchell and they have a full, healthy team and they're going to have all these dudes to throw Brunson.

• 25:22Bill Simmons?

  You know, and, and try to wear him down and guard him 94 feet. I get there's some matchup stuff, but just holistically, if I'm the Knicks, I'm like, we're in a heater. These teams are just gonna beat the crap out of each other and something magical is happening. We can actually win the finals, which I don't think anyone other than them would have thought two weeks ago, right?

• 25:42Speaker 01

  I mean, I go back, two weeks ago, I probably, well, be thinking about, they haven't lost a game in a month in the playoffs. So I think, once they got into that Philly series and started hitting their stride, and this was looking this way every night offensively, somewhere in the Philly series, it started to look like, okay, damn, the Knicks, man, like, they've really, like, closed that gap with the West, because at one point, I don't know how long ago, you'd have to go back, let's say, for me, probably, you know, March, late March, early April, where you're going, it's a foregone conclusion, whoever wins the West is the NBA champion. And at that time, there was even a time when Denver was even still kind of included in that, right? But it was really, we were mainly talking about the top two teams.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  And here's what I'll tell you, that narrative is now completely changed because of the way the Knicks are playing. Now, I'm not, I'm not sitting here predicting the Knicks will win. What I'm saying is, now you've got a series with whoever they play. That's the kind of basketball that they're playing, because it was going to take something that was going to be almost mind-blowing offensively, to think that anybody coming out of the East was gonna be able to operate the way you need to, to actually win a series against those two defenses. And that's what the Knicks have reached. They, it's, it's, it's literally a level of offensive basketball that you sit there, it's so overwhelming for their opponents, you can't really even believe that you're deep into the NBA playoffs, and this is happening.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  And it was, the switch was flipped in the middle of the Atlanta series, they haven't lost a game since, 11 straight. Saw some really interesting stat, I kinda had some people dig up for me, because I was really curious. I'm looking at this team, and I'm going, when have you had five starters at the same time playing this well in rhythm? So I looked at their, I looked at their field goal percentage as a group, the five starters, 53% as a group, okay? So I went and I said, well, who else has done that? You know how far you have to go back? The only three group of starters that were this deep into the postseason, that had a higher field goal percentage collectively amongst starters, than the Knicks team this year, were the 84, 85, and 86 Lakers.

• 27:54Bill Simmons?

  Jesus, and they were layups and dunks half the time.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what I said. It's magic. It's Kareem. It's worthy. Like, this is the, this is the team. And they did it three years in a row, a little bit, a notch above that. And then the Knicks, 53% for your start as a group? And it's like, it's, I mean, what, Bridges finally cooled off? I mean, I was like, okay. You know, because the numbers were getting so ridiculous. At one point, he was 67 for his last 97 from the field. And a guy that shoots mostly jumpers, gets a little bit of slashing stuff, couple of layups in transition, but a lot of it is pull-up jumpers. Couple of threes a game, doesn't go to line ever to get rhythm. So, and he's shooting, he's like 67 for his last 90. At one point, he was 72% in an 11-game stretch.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  Landry Shamet comes off the bench, what does he do? Let's just go 11 for 12 from the three.

• 28:45Bill Simmons?

  He's been at 12 teams.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was funny. We had a funny back and forth. Richard Jefferson on the broadcast said, he's like, you know, man, one guy that's made himself some money is Landry Shamet. I said, is 92% for the three-point line considered good? In the conference finals? I don't know. So even that stuff. Um, but it's the starters. That's really what we're talking about here. The flow that they have, the way they're sharing the ball. You know what that does, Bill? For me, it means this. You can win on the road now because balance travels, defense travels. Their defense is playing almost as well as their offense, but their offense has a lot to do with that because it's been so good. You're taking the ball to the net all the time. Their defense is going to be better, but it's the balance. Balance travels. You don't need it from one guy on any given night. The guys are picking each other up.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  And it's just this machine-like performance offensively does now thrust them into the conversation of, yes, yes, it's possible. The Knicks could be the champions. When this is all said and done, certainly they're worthy of going toe-to-toe with whoever they face in the NBA Finals. And I don't think anybody thought that going into the postseason. There was a worthy challenger to those teams.

• 29:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, they have a couple of things you want, right? They have a star who can go toe to toe in the last five minutes of a game. They can come from behind. They don't necessarily, they're a little like OKC in the sense that they can kind of survive a bad game from anybody in their top six and somebody else will pick up the slack. They're getting all these fast break points that I'm not sure that's going to translate into, uh, into playing OKC or San Antonio, probably not the same as when like James Harden and some of the Cavs are out there. But, you know, I think about like, I thought the best two teams I saw this century, and it's not even close, were the, were the 17 Warriors and the 01 Lakers. I just thought levitated above everybody. Both of those teams legitimately could have gone undefeated.

• 30:42Bill Simmons?

  And then we've seen teams that went on heaters as the playoffs went along, right? The Nuggets hit a point in 23 where it was like, Jesus, oh, it's, it's happening for these guys. There's the Spurs 2014 is another great example. And then the 11 Mavs were these teams, seven, eight guys, and they just, you can kind of see them figuring it out in real time. The interesting piece with the Knicks is the math is on their side, too. Like, they're like, what are they, plus 20 now net rating for the playoffs? I, I remember doing this before the Dallas Celtics series. Like, at some point, the math is the math. If somebody's just killing everybody for a month, you have to take that seriously. And I don't think the East was that bad either.

• 31:25Bill Simmons?

  You know, that, that Cavs team, I thought was a pretty, pretty tough, well-rounded team. The Knicks were better than them, but they, by the end of that series, they were, they were tapping out like a UFC fighter, you know? And, uh, I don't know, I just, I think the Knicks can beat either of these teams. I really do. I, I would not have said that even 10 days ago, but I wouldn't have them favored, but to me, it's like 50/50.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, Bill, I think it would be honestly foolish for any person to say that they couldn't at this point. I mean, and I understand you could talk about the path and who they played. And I mean, I think also there were some things in the Western Conference that the path was a little bit easier than we thought it was going to be for these teams.

• 32:02Bill Simmons?

  True.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  But, but listen, you look at the Knicks, there's no doubt. I mean, you know, Atlanta gave them their, their biggest test. Philly was, you know, dealing with the Embiid stuff, banged up, and they, they were not right, not themselves. It still doesn't explain what the Knicks did to them. It doesn't explain in this series what the Knicks did to them. Now, look. I don't think Cavs, Cavs, the way the Knicks were playing, Cavs aren't winning that series regardless of what happened in game one. You're not recovering from that. You're not recovering from that against this team, the way they were playing because that, so this team comes into that game, they're already on like hyperdrive offensively. All right, and now, okay, man, this is a tough spot and you put them in. So what do they do? They go have a 44 to 11 run that actually kicked their overall hyperdrive into another level for the rest of the series.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  So because they had to find it like in that moment. I look, I don't have this all that's in front of me now. I had it before the game notes going into game four the other night when they swept. But it was like number one in the, in all the playoff teams in, in fast break points per game. Number one in three point shooting percentage overall. Number one in field goal percentage. They were one or two often, I think one, two offensive rating, one defensive rating. It was versus, I always kept, they kept flipping it back and forth every time they'd play a game. But top two either way on both ends of the floor. They were dominating points in the paint. They were number one in second chance points. Like every way you can get it offensively, they're getting it. And it's even more, even more than that, even more than the numbers, just sitting there

• 33:31Speaker 01

  watching them, the connection between each other. It's special. It's something special that they've got going on right now. They have lost two games in the postseason in which CJ McCollum hit a last second shot to beat them by one point.

• 33:45Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Or this team is very, very possibly could be 12 and 0. Instead, they're 12 and 2 because of CJ McCollum playing great at the beginning of the Atlanta series. But once they figured out how they wanted to play, they haven't looked back. And it's another long layoff for them, you know, going to be incredibly fresh when the final start. If this thing ends up going seven, these teams are going to get Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, three days off. Knicks are sitting there again for close to a week and a half. Exactly. They're sitting there waiting. Now, the difference is in this last series, they, they were waiting and then they, you had to come into the Garden. You're Philly coming off of their seven game series to Boston, had to come into the Garden right away. That'll not be the case this time. The Knicks are going on the road, one way or another.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  So it's going to be a little bit different environment for that game one where you set the tone. But regardless, I think it'd be foolish for any person to watch the Knicks right now and not say that they absolutely could envision them being NBA champions when this is all said and done.

• 34:45Bill Simmons?

  The two McCollum shots reminiscent of the 01 Lakers would have gone undefeated if not for the OT game that Iverson, the step over game, right?

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:53Bill Simmons?

  And then the 2017 Warriors won their first 15, had a chance to go 16-0. That was KD's first year and that, that team was incredible. And that game four in Cleveland was just atrocious, officiating game. And just a weird game where you just, everything felt wrong about it, but they really had a 16-0. You know, nobody's done that. And then I look at the Knicks and it's like, yeah, they're like two CJ McCollum shots away from being 12-0 right now, which is a whole other level of, of everything. So you, you mentioned this earlier, but I think it's important because I haven't gotten to see it in person and you're sitting there courtside watching it.

• 35:34Bill Simmons?

  Did they, they've passed all the eye tests, chemistry, they have the secret, unselfishness, guys pulling for each other. It seems like they check every one of those boxes. What did you see as you were sitting there?

• 35:47Speaker 01

  A hundred percent they do. The chemistry, the, what's being said to each other in, in whatever, you know, moments of adversity they've had within a game or if they're not playing as well as they want to, the leadership that's coming in the huddles, the way that guys are respecting each other if they've got a voice for what they want to do. But the, the most impressive thing about it is I've watched this team now, I don't know, we, so we did two of the Philly, New York games. We did obviously all four of the Cleveland games, so that's six. We did one of the Atlanta game. We did the game in Atlanta when they went up 61 points. So that was, yeah, pretty impressive, but, so we called that game. So I've seen them now seven times, I think in the postseason.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  And the, here's what I tell you, they are not ever missing the next pass that's supposed to be made.

• 36:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  It's made every time, like every, every time I call a game, I mean, it's like every third trip up the floor, I'm thinking to myself, just the way my mind works, ah, ball should have gone here. That, that should have been reversed. That guy's open, the ball needs to go there because it would have led to this. That roller needs to be hit on the short pocket. I don't say that at all with the Knicks. It, it's every single time it goes, we're supposed to know. A lot of that is they're, they're playing with this, this surge up the floor and you can see what it did to the Cavs. The Cavs literally just stopped running. They're just like, this is just, who wants to run with these guys? I mean, it really was, you know, you think about it, Bill, they had. What was it 25 fast break points at a half?

• 37:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  In a half? The record for a playoff game is 38. They had 30 at the end of the third quarter. They could have had 35 if they wanted to keep running. They could have 45 if they ran the entire game for whatever reason. But obviously you're not going to do that in a game like that. So they didn't get to the record, but like it and it's obviously that was a lot about the Cavs. It's just the lack of commitment, man, to to turn and sprint, run back, match up. And they just knew they were overwhelmed and it was, it is what it is. But it's not just them that they did it to. They did the same thing to the, at the end of the Atlanta series, they did the same thing to the Sixers.

• 37:51Bill Simmons?

  They broke, they broke three teams in a row.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  They really did. I mean, and yet that's the thing you're watching happen right before your eyes. You're seeing the competitive will be taken away with what they're doing now. The, the most shocking one for me by far was the Atlanta series because that is a 3-2 series. Very much up in the, and Atlanta's at home for a game six. You're like, okay, you know, we might get a seventh game out of this right away in the first round. Of course, there was a lot of tension still about the Knicks and they were down 2-1 at one point. And they were up 45 points in the first half. Forty in the first half. And so you're like, okay, this team has, they've got waves that they're hitting you with where every

• 38:37Speaker 01

  single read is perfect. Every cut is, is with intent. Everything they're doing right now is like literally like if you're any coach at any level, man, this is what you want your team to look like offensively because they're, they're just, they're just doing everything on point, on time for each other. And then at the end of it, which you never know if you're going to get, they're finishing it with shot making. Like that's the one thing you can play beautiful basketball and not shoot well. They're doing that too, every single game. So, and that's just what it looks like. And their defense has been just swarming because again, teams have, have let go of the rope because they're getting just smashed. And so now they get careless with the ball as well. And it looks like this, you know, piranha tank and they're just grabbing the ball and going.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  And, and it's amazing how fast these games are just turning into an inferno for the other team. Where it's like not winnable in a period of six minutes. That's what they've been doing game after game. And that's like been the most impressive thing of all.

• 39:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, and they have an incredible crowd. And then on the road, they're now traveling like Red Sox style with it felt like it was half the fans at that Cavs game. What was the crowd like in game one? Because it felt like ESPN almost had to lower the crowd mics just so we could hear the announcers. There were some fan videos that came from that game.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:59Bill Simmons?

  Where it was like 10 out of 10 deafening.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:02Bill Simmons?

  Cause I've been in situations like that with those cans on where the crowd is coming through the cans and you almost can't even hear anything. How loud was it?

• 40:11Speaker 01

  We're doing the open on the court, you know, myself, Mike Breen, Richard Jefferson, about to do the open and we're standing shoulder to shoulder and I was having a difficult time hearing Mike Breen. So, you know, fortunately I kind of knew the question. So I just watched his lips and when he stopped moving his lips, I started talking, you know, because I kind of knew what the question was. But yeah, it was, it was on that level. The, and then, and then it got real nervous in there.

• 40:38Bill Simmons?

  The Brunson, the game one, yeah.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Cavs took it to them and it was like nervous energy and it didn't, at one point it like didn't feel necessarily like the Garden in a playoff game. They were waiting for a run that never came until it happened in that stretch when they, you know, he just kept getting one on one against Harden over and over. And it took six incredibly difficult shots that he got. Well, I'd say four incredibly difficult, two like sort of tough, four really tough shots. And they were just determined, were staying home with three point shooters, let this guy go. After six in a row, the lead's been cut in half and there's enough time to win the game. Now they started making decisions. Oh, do we run a guy out of halfway out of him? What do we do? The rotations weren't good and it's Shamet hits threes, Bridges hit a couple of threes and the rest is history. But there was, there was a lot

• 41:25Speaker 01

  of nervousness in there. But I'll tell you this though, Bill, we'll say this. When Brunson started making those shots, you're still down 18, 16, 14. It felt to me like that crowd knew right then they were going to win that game.

• 41:41Bill Simmons?

  Right. Because of the, because of the history with the guy. They watched him do it 20 times.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  We just needed this. We would waiting, hanging on the edge of our seat. We were so loud early. And then, man, they jumped us in the third quarter. And it's like, wow, are we gonna lose this game? It was a little bit of that in the third quarter. They were just waiting. Give us one, like, 8-0 run. And we're gonna be fine. And that's what he did.

• 42:04Bill Simmons?

  You know what's funny about that?

• 42:08Bill Simmons?

  Brady was like that. He got to that point as a QB where he could be down the whole game. And, you know, they'd go for it on fourth and one, the other team, and screw it up. And like, you're giving us the ball back? Oh, my God, Brady's closing. You just kind of knew. And it feels like the Knicks are like, wow, you're letting us hang around? Brunson's gonna... Do you realize what's about to happen? Because he's at that point. What do we do with him? There's been very few little guards like this in the history of the league who have been able to be the guy on a team that took a team to the finals. He's never been considered a top five or six guy in the league. He made second team NBA this time around. I think we all thought incredible clutch player. Eh, could you win four straight playoff rounds with them? Probably not.

• 42:54Bill Simmons?

  And now he's kind of trying to knock it on the door of like that top four, top five in the league just because of what's happening. Is there... Can you think of another player in your career, playing in the league, announcing, talking about it? Is there another player that you can think of who's been like him?

• 43:14Speaker 01

  There's not a comparison for him for this reason. Other guys that have been smaller type guards that are your team's highest volume shot taker, leading scorer, that's a hard way to go about it. If you got a guy that's, you know, under 6'6" even, that's like your point guard-ish that takes most of the shots and like...

• 43:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Okay, there's hasn't... And here's why he's different than those other guys. Most of those other guys, lightning quick.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Right, and, and so they played a certain way that you're like, okay, that, that you can see how you can get escapability. He doesn't, he doesn't have that. Now, he's got a, he's got a shiftiness that he can shake you and get by you because he's got to set you up. But you think about it, and I think it's a great, great, um, lesson for young players. If you're not the most, necessarily the most athletic, because I would call his game a grounded game. He's got a grounded offensive game. If, if you're kind of one of those guys that's got that, so here's what you have to master. Footwork, balance, get strong, get in the weight room, footwork, balance, strength. And then the last component that you can't teach, that he has, is a certainty of, in himself,

• 44:26Speaker 01

  of what the result is going to be. I think Jalen Brunson is more certain in, in, especially in big spots, when he goes up to release the basketball than any player in this league. He is the most certain of where that ball's gonna end up. And, and that, um, is incredible because he's not gonna shake you entirely. He's not blowing by you and getting into the, the glass before anybody can react. He's not getting to an area on the floor and elevating 38, 40 inches for a mid-range pull-up or a lean-back. He, he's not doing that. He's a grounded offensive player that you still can't stop because he uses his strength, footwork, balance, IQ, and at the end of it, he's so sure of himself.

• 45:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  It's, it's, that's the, really to me, the final component sets him apart. He is one of those rare players that, like, the brighter the lights, that's, that's what he's kind of been built for his entire life. Um, this is what he knows. And so he was the perfect player that the Knicks acquired at the time. We weren't sure, is this the perfect player? That they just acquired because you didn't really know. It wasn't his team yet when he left Dallas. Now it was his team and like, okay, let's see what this looks like. And, man, this is what it looks like. And the guy, I, by the way, shoots 46% or up, I think, every single year. So he's a smaller guard that's way more efficient than most guys his size have ever been in this league.

• 45:45Bill Simmons?

  There's the sustainability with how he does it. Cause this has been four years now and it feels like he's just getting slightly better each year. Cause like the one great Isaiah Thomas season with the Celtics, the second Isaiah Thomas. When he had 29 a game, he was an MVP candidate. They made the, I think they made the conference finals. But you're watching it like, man, he's gonna get hurt. He's just flying to the basket, right? And he's like this little guy going against these big dudes and over and over again, felt like he was flying in the basket support. I always felt watching it like, ah, there's like a shelf life with this. I don't see how you can keep playing this way. Brunson's more, almost moves more like Jokic where it's like, I, I feel like he could do this for 10 years.

• 46:29Bill Simmons?

  This is all like footwork and confidence and know how. So when I think about the guys, like there's nobody to compare him to, but he's got pieces of different great guys from over the years, right? Like Isaiah was the toughest guy on that Pistons team, right? That was the bad boy Pistons. He was the toughest guy. But also like in the end of games, he knew he could take over and score. I, I don't remember seeing Oscar Robertson. I was too young. But they always talked about the way he controlled the pace of a game and just slowly, painstakingly got to his spots and that's what made him special. So there's guys, but I, to watch a six foot one guy who can, can control a game with his footwork, basically, who's the toughest guy on his team.

• 47:12Bill Simmons?

  And then you hear Mike Brown say this week that Duncan and Curry are the only two people he's ever seen as leaders like that. And those are the two best leaders of the past 35 years in the league that everybody talks about. Like if you have this guy, you have a culture the entire time you're there. So you have that too. It's just, it's an all time signing. It's one of the great free agent signings in the history of the league.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  No doubt about it. I mean, they're talking, listen, I mean, there's a lot of people now in New York and you see it all the time. Online or conversations or podcasts, whatever the topic comes up, greatest Knicks of all time. He's played himself in that conversation to the point where if he wins this, he's able to win this. And he puts up the kind of typical Jalen Brunson numbers in an NBA final. And this guy averages like 30 or something in an NBA finals and. And they they upset San Antonio or Oklahoma City, which I mean, it's be as big of an upset now as it would have been. But I'm saying, you know, these are both, you know, teams that won north of 60, right? And they's able to pull that off and and also doesn't have home court advantage of doing that. And he goes in and he, you know, shoots 50% from the field and averages 30 like, and they win a title. It's I can't even I don't even know, like, where does he

• 48:17Bill Simmons?

  With 53 years of baggage?

• 48:19Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. Where does you where do you shoot historically if that happens? It's been 53 years, you know, 27 since they just got to the finals, you know? So it's he's a special player, man. They got the right guys around him. Give they give Leon Rose and that group a lot of credit, man, for what they did and the pieces that they went out and got. Even a guy like Bridges, who he gave up a lot for, and he was getting beat up at times this year, and certainly in that Atlanta series, you know, the game before this whole streak started, remember, he had no points and four turnovers in in game five of that series. I'm sorry, game three of that series, they go down 2-1.

• 48:57Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  And and it's it's it's completely turned around for him. So even even he is now

• 49:02Bill Simmons?

  And he's figured out where to go on the court. That's the best for him, which it felt like that took two years.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  And here's why. That that's subtle change he made to their offense with Kat. And look, it's it's his assist number spiked in the Atlanta series. They're not having quite as high since. There's no doubt he's touching the ball more. His shots are down, his scoring is down. It's interesting, but he feels way more important because he's touching the ball 25, 30 more times a game. But and so what that has done from a Bridges standpoint is, he's really good at weak side, like getting a little brush screen and then curling and slashing through the lane and catching some of these passes from from towns or doing that continued run to the other side. And then he's that guy that will catch the ball and immediately catch it, put it down for one dribble for 18 foot pull up. His natural motion now within the spacing they

• 49:52Speaker 01

  have is so much more suited to him than standing around waiting and watching high ball screen 45 times a game and hoping it's going to come your way. That's not the kind of player he is. He's the kind of player who's now he's he's moving. The entire game and that's what their offense looks like now without a lot of play calls. By the way, it's just spacing and putting guys in the right spot at the start and then make reads. And it's it's really suited his game. So it's not a coincidence that all of a sudden he started shooting. Well, not well is understatement of the century that he's doing this. It's because it's offense now is much more suited to his skill set. And so he looks comfortable and confident. OG has been great for them. Obviously.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Cat, you know, Josh Hart is like the probably the heart and soul of what they do with what he gives up every night to try to win. It's been it's been awesome to watch him, man. They're just um they're just absolutely on fire. And that's the biggest question, whoever they get in the finals.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  What are you going to do to slow this machine down? Because that's what they've turned into offensively, their machine.

• 50:53Bill Simmons?

  I still don't completely understand the cat piece of it. Just because he's was in the 2015 draft. He's not like a 27 year old player at this point. He's been in the league for his 11th or 12th season. And it was like, this is just who he is. He's going to get dumb fouls. Um, there's going to be games when it's just gonna, he's gonna seem upset that he's not touching the ball enough. He's gonna get beaten on the glass every once in a while. He's gonna be defensive. He hasn't been any of those things. He's been like additive. He's, you know, he'll go six for nine. Get 13 rebounds, maybe two turnovers, so one dumb foul each half.

• 51:32Bill Simmons?

  But this is the most I've enjoyed watching him and it's like basically because he's been relegated into being this awesome supporting guy, which maybe should have been his destiny all along.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Well, I think what's he's what he's done is transformed himself by the way he's playing into now. You you look at him, you go, that's a winning player. That's a guy you can win with as your center. And and so you weren't, you didn't know exactly what he was. He had a lot of talent and he was kind of multi dimensional. A big dude that could play some power basketball, but really can shoot it. But you didn't know here's here's what I think the greatest testament to what I just said about how he's labeled now. This season, all year, man, like every time we saw the Knicks, saw Mike Brown, like we were asking before the game, because cat was the number one topic of conversation in New York, surrounding the Knicks, because it was like, up and down offensively, sometimes it didn't seem very included, sometimes it was less like, man, he doesn't really fit, he doesn't seem like, he's even happy like in this offense, like running this offense.

• 52:27Bill Simmons?

  He didn't seem happy.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  They changed it, they changed it mid-season and then really changed it in the playoffs. Here's though, what I wanted to say about him, despite all of that, Bill, every night, the guy rebounded, it was like death taxes and 13 rebounds from Karl-Anthony Towns. And so that helped them continue to win, and it's how you end possessions by securing the defensive glass. So that was there every night. And this guy is not a guy that's like gobbling up soft rebounds, he's not getting, you know, six a game off missed free throw. He gets physical tough rebounds in traffic where he used his body, and he has been this physical presence for them in that starting lineup defensively, even on the nights when

• 53:12Speaker 01

  he only gets eight, nine shots. And that's, that's changed, I think, the way a lot of people maybe have viewed him. This guy is now like a great fit for what they're doing. And I just, I just love those kind of stories, because he's a, he's a, he's a great person, like he's way carries, he's raised well, like he's polite, he's just a good dude. And it was like, he had a lot of talent, you were kind of just wondering, what is his, what is his ultimate label in this league? And I think this is like now the perfect situation for him to be appreciated and admired for like what he is capable of doing. And he's been just a big a part of this. But the good thing is, they don't have to get it from any one of these dudes on any given night, because they're all doing it. So it could, one guy can have it off night, it's okay. Everybody else right now is in such rhythm,

• 53:57Speaker 01

  it doesn't matter.

• 53:59Bill Simmons?

  Well, the other thing about, when you talk about the appreciation. That's the other thing at stake for these guys and yeah, I haven't heard. I'd say everybody's been talking about the Knicks for the last couple of days, but you win the title. You can see it with the guys who didn't win the title, who didn't even like really make the playoffs. That are still invited to these games and are part of the past with the Knicks, guys like.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:21Bill Simmons?

  Stephon Marbury, I don't think he won a playoff series, you know, Ewing obviously made the finals, Starks did. But if these guys win, Towns could be strolling back in there. Thirty-five years from now, it could be 70 years old.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  There's no, there's no doubt about it.

• 54:35Bill Simmons?

  Like that's what's, that's some of the stuff that's at stake here.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  I mean, you kidding me? They're, they're at the place now where like Jose Alvarado would get that treatment if they win this. Because he's so popular there with like his energy and like what he does. So. And I, by the way, to your point, I don't, I don't, I've never seen that many former players showing up at games at the same time. Ever in this league. That's just not.

• 54:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, not even the Celtics have that many.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, how do you have 15 guys there the other night from like different eras and stuff? It's really cool, man. They're all kind of.

• 55:03Bill Simmons?

  It's pretty neat.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Vibing on this and the city is obviously just so electric right now. Um, I don't know what that city is going to look like if they actually pull this off and win it if it's as.

• 55:13Bill Simmons?

  I don't know how you're getting out of the arena.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  I don't know. We, Breen fortunately knows all the tunnels and stuff. So you can like, you know, get out of there if you have to. After the game, although he'll probably stay there and be, you know, back there, you know. With, because he's a, look, the guy's a Knicks fan, you know, he's the most unbiased broadcaster I've ever seen. When he calls Knicks games. He's every bit as enthusiastic for the other team and whatnot, but he calls Knicks games. He's a life, lifelong Knicks fan. Everybody knows that. Um, and you know, here he is with an opportunity. He's going to be calling his first finals as. The lead play-by-play guy with the Knicks in the finals. So it's kind of a interesting dynamic to it as well. Uh, but he's, you know, he's obviously the best in the business. I'm lucky to be sitting next to him.

• 55:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's been a Knicks fan since age seven. But I think, I think you geek out, the Knicks fan side of you geeks out before and after the games, right? You're doing the game, you're just doing your job. You're, it's almost like you're an airplane, you're an airplane pilot. You're just, you're moving all the levers, he's setting you guys up, you're just lost in the game. But I'm sure there's gotta be moments when he's just like, holy shit. It's the, it's the fucking finals, we made it, I'm here. We've, we actually have a chance to win, Jesus.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  What's crazy is for, for all Knicks fans, think this, like how quickly they just dispatched of the conference.

• 56:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Like, like that's the thing, like you're going into this, you're going into this, you're the three seed, so you're, you know, but you think you got a chance, you're like, okay, you know, Detroit, unproven, they got some offensive issues, the Boston's missing, got Tatum back late, but like, they're not quite the same, we're a three seed, but we have a real chance. And then what happens? The one and two get taken out for you. So you don't even deal with the one and the two. And now you find yourself with home court advantage.

• 56:54Bill Simmons?

  And you lose Indiana, who's your nemesis, they're not even in there to begin with, they're gone.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  They're dealing with stuff, so, so, so like, and now you go, okay, going into the playoffs, I'm sure Knicks fans were thinking like hopeful, but, but nervous, like you would be, like you don't know exactly how it's gonna go, to like completely dismantling the Eastern Conference, like just such clockwork, the first round knockouts, night after night, and, and here they are, sitting there with all this time off, waiting to play whoever's coming out of the West.

• 57:23Bill Simmons?

  You know, sometimes that's just how it goes. I even feel like the 2024 Celtics, two years ago, I don't know if they would have beaten Denver, but we never found out, because Denver never made it, and the way it just lined up was like perfect for them. Sometimes, that's what happens, you know, like Milwaukee in 2021, where the Nets just fall apart as that series happens, Phoenix somehow ends up in the finals, Davis gets hurt, and then just a couple of things, a couple of things go your way, and that's what happens when it's a year. The Knicks have been healthy, they gelled at the perfect time, and it feels like something magical's happening.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  That's really, that's the key to it, like it's so rare, it's so rare for a team to, to hit perfect rhythm. Their absolute peak and beyond probably any, any reasonable expectations for what their peak was, they actually smashed through what their ceiling was.

• 58:15Bill Simmons?

  No question.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  This time of year at exactly the right time that you have to have it and to do it now and then sustain it series after series with, you know, one more series to go. We'll see, we'll see how it goes, but they got some work to do left in the West.

• 58:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, you get to call the games. Hopefully you'll finally get a good series. Talk about getting boned over with, uh, with drama in a playoffs there. Did you, did you call one good game?

• 58:38Bill Simmons?

  So. You guys are like oh for seven. I think it's Richard's fault. I don't think you should take the blame. I think it's Richard's fault.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  We did the Nick comeback game against, against, uh, Cleveland.

• 58:47Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that was a good one. Okay. So you're one for seven.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause we called the whole conference final. So we did that.

• 58:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Yeah. I forgot. So you got a one good one.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  I'm trying to think. We, oh, we did, we did a game, a Philly, Boston game when Embiid came back and they beat Boston and Embiid was great in the second half. Was that game five?

• 59:06Bill Simmons?

  Game five. Yeah. I didn't really enjoy that game. That wasn't a huge fan of that one.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  That was a, that was a good game at least. Like it was, it was some drama to that. I'm trying to think, um, uh, maybe it was, maybe it was one more, but no, for the most part.

• 59:20Bill Simmons?

  Well, the Brunson game was awesome. So you, you at least had one good one. Do you?

• 59:24Speaker 01

  I mean, you just, you know, it was the greatest, greatest comeback under those circumstances in the history of the league. So yeah, that was, that was like, we, I was still, actually the next morning I was in the hotel room in New York and I was still, I was still kind of really processing what I just watched.

• 59:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Because of how, how big they were down with that amount of time to play. Um, and what Brunson did, you know, and the, the beginning of that run, take a look at the first two or three shots he hit. They're incredibly difficult shots.

• 59:54Bill Simmons?

  He hit one off the backboard that I have no idea how it didn't go flying off the backboard.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  You're talking about.

• 59:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I was like, how did he even have touch on that?

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  The ball hit the white stripe on the top.

• 1:00:04Bill Simmons?

  On the very top.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  From the right, right off the right lane.

• 1:00:08Bill Simmons?

  And he's shooting it this way.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:00:10Bill Simmons?

  I just don't know how that went in.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember I, I remember calling, then that happened live and then I got to do the replay on that particular shot. And now, as I'm talking, it's super slow mo, high def. And so you're watching this ball and I'm like, it just kept going up and up. Cause the first time you saw it live, I wasn't exactly sure where it hit. I know it was up there. And then you see the replay and it hit the white stripe on the top of the backboard from that angle and went straight through. And that's when you're like, are you kidding me? That's still, they're down like 18 when he hit that. And you're like, okay, that's what it took to get down 18? How are you going to finish this off? So it's been unreal.

• 1:00:46Bill Simmons?

  Quickly on Cleveland, they announced Atkinson and the front office is coming back today. They're set up now for a LeBron comeback that I don't think will happen, but at least on paper, it could be discussed. They have to get into a luxury tax. Whatever team we just watched is not a team that's going to win four straight playoff rounds. So they're going to have to figure out, how do we pay less money? How do we shift stuff? They're stuck with Harden now because they obviously made some wink, wink, come to us, we'll blow up the last year deal. We'll give you a shorter deal to save some money. What's the move? If you had to pick Mobley, Allen or Mitchell? As the move for them to reset the team?

• 1:01:29Bill Simmons?

  And maybe try to shed some money and, and move the roster in a different direction. Who, who is the guy you would look at?

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  The guy I'd look at to move or to keep?

• 1:01:39Bill Simmons?

  To move. If you, if you had to get rid of one, what, what makes, who makes the least sense for them? Or would you cut ties with Mitchell at this point? Like, what would you do?

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  I don't think I would cut ties with Mitchell. No, I still think, I still think when you have a guy like that, and even in this series, he, he, first of all, I don't think he was right. I think he had something going on with his groin. He was limping a little bit. Um, I think it was game two.

• 1:02:00Bill Simmons?

  You guys were talking about that a bunch, like it.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  He didn't have, I mean, think of that. I don't. I don't think, I'm trying to think. I don't, I don't think he had a dunk in the series.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Okay, you're talking about a guy that's like, he's known, he's gonna get one or two of those rim attacks a game where he takes off, right? And ties a tomahawk with somebody, he didn't really have any of that. He's still, it's weird because he still had a pretty good numbers for the series overall. Like the only guy that did.

• 1:02:25Bill Simmons?

  You know why he was, because he was worn out from this 14 games it took to beat the two teams they were better at. That's like their fault.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  I think that was a big factor, Bill, and I think, you know, it's, it's a big factor. He played every other day for like a month.

• 1:02:37Bill Simmons?

  When he didn't have to, you should have won those series in five.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  It was their own fault, yeah, their own fault, but it still is a factor. And you don't know how much of a factor till you run into a fresh team like they did. Then you're like, it was obvious.

• 1:02:50Bill Simmons?

  So you would look at Mobley or Allen trying to basically choose between those two?

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  Probably Mobley, and I think, I was a little disappointed in this series just because, like, he shoots decent percentage from the field. He'll have some games where he does decent rebounding numbers, but he just has stretches of games where he just, you don't notice them. Offensively, now we're what, he's four years in?

• 1:03:12Bill Simmons?

  He's 25 years old.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  And you're like, you just wanted that next progression. Now, he's a little bit better three-point shooter, probably much better than when he came in the league, but he's not like he's out there shooting 40%. He's in the mid 30s, he can make them, he made like one or two, I think, in probably every game in this series. That's great, he added that, but like, it's just the impact and the force that you wanted to play with for the entire game, because he has a lot of talent. And he hasn't really been able to, to kind of find that gear, so, um, maybe, maybe it would be him. I don't think it would be Mitchell.

• 1:03:45Bill Simmons?

  Would you trade him for Giannis?

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. For sure, because, because of the, where Mitchell is in the stage of his career.

• 1:03:55Bill Simmons?

  And being stuck with Harden too now for two years, so now it's like you're giving yourself a two-year window.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying, so I don't think that it would make sense for me in certain situations with Giannis.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Depending on where it was, it does in this case. Because like that window is like now, like every year is now going forward. So that would be the immediacy that you need in a guy that's built, that could get you through, you know, deep playoff run and he's going to play with force against any defense and all of those things. And he's won a championship. That would be probably, you know, a place that I would say, yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:04:30Bill Simmons?

  Hey, so if we sat in a log cabin and talked about this for two weeks straight, I think we would come to this conclusion. How are we going to win four straight rounds of our guards are Mitchell and Harden? How are we going to defend? There's too many good perimeter guys in the league. How are we going to be able to defend these guys when we need both those guys on the floor? And one of them at all times is going to be exposed. And Mitchell is slightly better than Harden.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  One of the things I did postmortem on them on a, on like a sports radio station in Cleveland. And it was, what do they need to do? Like what's, what's it look like? Assuming you're going forward with, you know, Mitchell and Harden. So they got to get much more athletic on the wings. They've got to get tougher guys. They've got to get, um, you know, you maybe have to sacrifice some of the guys that can shoot for you because they didn't even shoot that in this series at all. So you need to have some guys with a little bit better, um, switchability factor, a little bit better. Where you have options as a coach on what matchups you want to see. And guys that can run and get after the open floor and play with that aggressive force.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Because you're seeing the teams that are lasting in this league. They've got some guys like that. And they didn't really have a lot of that. They got the two bigs. If you play well together, both talented guys, the two guards. Bunch of shooters, role players for the most part beyond that. But there was an overall physical toughness that they were not bringing to the Knicks. That it was so obvious and, and I mean, you saw it other times with Cleveland, but it was really exposed in that series. And so, look, they've already made a decision to move forward with Kenny Atkinson. And, um, they're going to go from there. And now I think they got to retool the supporting cast. Um, and probably move one of those, one of those bigs.

• 1:06:12Bill Simmons?

  I mean, the flip side would be it's a 30 team league and they finished fourth. I don't know when, when you start talking yourself into that side of the narrative. I just don't think Mitchell and Harden, you could win four straight series with that. And I don't really love Allen and Mobley together either, so I would probably get a little more creative. All right. How are you feeling about the commanders? Decent?

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  This time of year, I always feel amazing.

• 1:06:34Bill Simmons?

  Favorite part, right? Favorite part of the year?

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  It's the greatest time of the year.

• 1:06:38Bill Simmons?

  Schedule comes out.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  Fan of a team that has struggled that long. Yes, man. Schedule release, although we had a tough schedule early. Schedule release and then I'm, every day I'm reading about, you know, the OTAs and I was reading about these guys in mini camp and who's, who's impressing and Styles looks amazing apparently. Um, and he's like already the leader of the defense. He's gonna be calling the plays as a rookie. I'm like, this is all the stuff I want to hear. So really excited, but it will always come down to the health of Jay Daniels. End of story.

• 1:07:08Bill Simmons?

  I'm just excited. There hasn't been a story about my Patriots in a week, so hopefully we can keep that going.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  I will. And I think the one thing we're gonna get, Bill, and I don't like making big predictions, but I do feel really good that I know we've had a lot of lopsided games, blowouts, maybe in the postseason, we wanted more on a given night. I think the finals are going to be incredible. Whoever comes out of the West, I don't see that being a five game series with like three lopsided games. I just, I don't see it. The Knicks don't go away. The teams coming out of the West, they don't go away. They fight. They're talented. They're deep. They defend. I, I, I don't know, man. I think we could be set up for this incredibly epic NBA finals.

• 1:07:52Bill Simmons?

  And all the rest of Knicks get, you know, last round, this round, like you can't sleep on that either. If this OKC San Antonio goes seventh, they play Thursday, they play Saturday, they have a couple of days, then all of a sudden they're going again and the Knicks are just, you know, getting healthy, running plays, having bonding pizza nights. All right, Tim Legler. Say hi to, say hi to the rev for me. Please give me, give him a congratulations. Good to see you. We're gonna be coming back, take a break, come back with Brian Koppelman right after this. Uber Eats makes last minute gifting easy. Whether it's Mother's Day, Father's Day, graduation, whatever. You blink, they're here. But just because it snuck up on you doesn't mean your gift has to feel like it. The Uber Eats Gift Hub has something for everyone.

• 1:08:36Bill Simmons?

  Flowers, perfume, champagne, even their favorite takeout order. Hmm. It can show up in as little as 25 minutes, even if you just remembered five minutes ago. The best part, you can add a video message and a personal note. So it actually feels like you planned it all along. Order on Uber Eats today. Must be 21 or older to purchase alcohol. Product availability varies per region. See app for details. All playoffs long, I've been looking through the slates, trying to come up with some good picks from FanDuel Sportsbook to throw on my Twitter feed. Usually my favorite parlay, some, some add-ons if you want to get a, get a little wacky with a longer shot. So I'm definitely going to be doing something for game six and probably zagging against whoever lost in game five.

• 1:09:21Bill Simmons?

  Zagging the other way for game six, because I think this series just, it just reeks of seven, but we'll see what happens. I will have that pick on Thursday morning for game six. When I bet, bet with FanDuel, it's a brand I trust. Easy to build my NBA bets on FanDuel. I know I'm getting great, eight great odds payouts on my parlays, boosts every day, and you get your winnings instantly on FanDuel. FanDuel, play your game. All right, my friend Brian Koppelman is here. I just want to mention, he didn't want to come on. And I reminded him, you've come on so many times, dating back to the ESPN days to talk about the Knicks. And it was always sad circumstances, unhappy, why did God do this to me? I don't understand.

• 1:10:05Bill Simmons?

  We talked about our friend Goldman, who passed away in the late 2010s. The last finals he saw was 1999, missed all this. And that was what I said to you, Koppelman. I was like, you know what? You're about to make the finals. This is the most fun Knicks team of this century by far. It's a really special team, even regardless of what happens in the finals. And you have to come on and talk about it. So you're here.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, we made, we made the finals. We're not about to, we made the finals. It's very exciting. I didn't want to come on because I don't want to, I don't want to jinx it. I really just want to be the, uh, uh, I'm here as just a, I'm such a fan. Look, my first- Memory, because this is like you and your dad, you know, and you and your kids. My very first memory is a human being is being with my father who died three years ago. But being with my dad at the Knicks, I was turning five years old. And that's literally the first memory I have is Madison Square Garden with my dad watching the Knicks. That's how important this team is to me. It's, it's, you know, in the fabric of my life.

• 1:11:11Speaker 02

  It's the best thing about sports is these connect and the worst thing is these connections we have to these teams. What they mean because of the memories we share with people. Like these times get you corny, get me corny and I can't help it because I'm literally thinking of a guy. This guy named Bob, Bobby Angler, who grew up across the street from me. And he would wear Walt Frazier's number and I'd wear Earl Monroe's number. And we'd play one on one all day and all night long as Earl and Clyde when we were little kids. And like we still, he's four years old and we still text each other when the Knicks are in the playoffs. Like from when we were seven and he was, you know, 10 and I was seven, he was turning 11.

• 1:11:54Speaker 02

  It's like, it matters to my college friends who I went to games with, some of whom I still am in touch with. Some of whom I don't talk to that much, they're texting me. Not because I'm a special Nick fan, but because we're all Nick fans and care so much. And so, yeah, I don't want to jinx anything. I'm just so happy to be in the finals. Every single person involved with the Knicks has just done an incredible job. And Jalen Brunson's the truth.

• 1:12:23Bill Simmons?

  So this segment is brought to you by new era, ironically, because this feels like a new era for Knicks fans. You think of the 2000s and the 2010s and all the crummy things that happened. And then Leon and Wes take over All-Star Weekend 2020, a month before COVID. And with, with really one goal, how do we, how do we basically recreate the 2004 Pistons? With Rashid and Billups and all these dudes? How do we think outside the box and try to put a contender together? If we're never going to have, if we're never going to luck out with the lottery? Nobody wanted to like just do the latter thing again because the Knicks had done that a million times. How do we think outside the box? When did you start believing in the vision?

• 1:13:08Bill Simmons?

  What year did you think this is actually something that was going to work?

• 1:13:15Speaker 02

  Well, in the beginning, I didn't know, right? And, and you know what happened is, um, I mean, you were involved in part of what made me be a believer was I ended up taking a walk with Wes and we called you. And, um, you were like, this guy, these guys, they mean it. And, um, and Wes, as you know, is, look, Leon's obviously a visionary with figuring out how to put this team together, but Wes is this incredible connector of people and built this belief system.

• 1:13:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  So I think Wes was going to find all these people who were like lifelong Knicks fans and trying to convert them into becoming believers. But it's about all about Jalen.

• 1:14:04Bill Simmons?

  Just like, just like, things are different now. Just trust us, like, we get it. We have, we have the right vision in place.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  He would convey that they really cared so much, like, about turning this around. And they kind of put their own net, like, they would say, like, like, uh, judge us based on how we do. You know, so many people in those roles want to run from responsibility. And I felt right from the beginning that, that those guys were saying, no, we know what we're saying we can do and we're gonna do it. But I, I, I can't, I don't, I, look, there's a lot of, um, anyone who's a sports fan of a team that has lost for a really long time or not lived up to the promises, knows that it starts to feel a little bit like post-traumatic stress.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  And you don't, you just are so accustomed to getting disappointed and, and hurt. And it is such a joy. So like, for instance, the Jalen Brunson move.

• 1:15:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:08Speaker 02

  So many people want to say, oh, I knew it. I'll be honest, I had no idea that that was, uh, a smart thing until I started watching him. And by the end of the first season, it was so clear that we had a guy who was one of the smartest people in the league, one of the true leaders in the league. I mean, a guy who is available to fans, like, communicates, but...

• 1:15:37Speaker 02

  His emotional range is that of like the greatest leaders in sports.

• 1:15:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, did you see what Mike Brown said today?

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, you told me. I mean, said, because you you saw it before I saw it. Yeah.

• 1:15:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they asked something about Jalen Brunson as a leader. And he compared him to Steph Curry and Tim Duncan, two other guys who've been around now. Anyone in basketball would say those have been the two best culture setter leaders that we've had basically in the last 35 years since Magic.

• 1:16:06Bill Simmons?

  And for him to have mentioned those two guys as a comparison, I was like, whoa, that's that's a that's not faint praise. That's like a real thing to say.

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  It's so great for something to be like a positive surprise when it comes to the Knicks. You know, you're right. When you talked about 1999 and then sort of the years of like the angry Knicks fan. And I know I personified that sometimes, you know, I wrote about, I mean, for you, I I I wrote a lot of articles about being angry about being happy when Spree came back and made the chokes, you know, that the that that signed to the the owner. But I'll tell you something. Like, this has turned me around completely. First of all, I never stopped going. I've had tickets since 1989. I had one ticket. My friend Alan Havy had the other.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  And Havy and I, then Havy moved to California 12 years in when I could afford both tickets. And I've had the two seats since, but I've had seats since 89. And so this is just an incredibly meaningful, great thing. And yeah, if this is as far as it goes, it's a win to get back to the finals. I started taking my son Sam right when he was the age I was when I started going four or five years old. He's had some, you know, we've had long walks back. I wrote about the long walk.

• 1:17:29Bill Simmons?

  Brutal run for him. Yeah, because it was basically the reverse situation of what I had with my dad. Yeah, I had my dad and we're winning titles the first year we went and we had Larry Bird and meanwhile, poor Sammy had nothing. He had that Carmelo again in round two once and then insanity for three weeks.

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, he just watched all of these disappointments and he's still, you know, wears a Knicks hat almost every day and uh, no matter, you know, he's just a diehard fan and um, I do think that these guys have put together an incredible squad. I mean, you think about that day that that Jalen, I love that this clip reservices all the time, but you rarely see an athlete in such an open moment, even in this era, Bill. Such an unguarded moment is when he found out.

• 1:18:14Bill Simmons?

  Oh, the Josh Hart trade? Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  And, and almost the opposite of the way people, when the Luca thing happened and people were getting it. When he found out that, that uh, Josh Hart was traded to the Knicks, it's almost like he knew all of this. Like, he started jumping up and down because he knew, oh, you put like my best friend. This guy who I know exactly how to make him better. I know I can count on him. He makes me better. He's gonna throw his, because you know, Josh Hart is such still underrated and he's just so perfect on this team, you know, and the whole team, I mean, even what Mitchell said the other day, right? You've got a team of guys who somehow are just hearts on their sleeves. You know, Jalen's the only one who's kind of guarded, even on his own podcast. He's still guarded. He's the leader.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  But everyone else on the team, they're the opposite of guarded. They just let you know what they're thinking and what they're feeling and um, they're in it. I mean, even Rick, Rick Brunson, who will like argue with somebody and yet it's um, it's really been an incredible thing to watch and, and be a part of.

• 1:19:20Bill Simmons?

  It's so hard to put together a possible championship team without one of the best five guys in the league. Because that, really the last time that was, the last team that was able to do this was that 04 Pistons team. The Knicks have nobody, I don't think anybody who's been first team all NBA. So like, let's say if they win four more, they win a title.

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  I think Jalen got no votes for first team this year.

• 1:19:44Bill Simmons?

  He was never, he was never gonna, I, I had a vote. He was never, it was Cade or Jalen for the last spot. Once Luca became eligible, Jalen was second team, but the Knicks were. It wasn't a disappointing season, but it wasn't like the greatest regular season either, right? It was, I think there was as many questions as answers heading into the playoffs. They were like 7-1 just to even win the East. I don't think a ton of people were picking them and people really weren't sure. I think what was so shocking was the, how this became this like selfless, old school, Bill Bradley era Knicks team over the last 11 games. Like even

• 1:20:25Bill Simmons?

  watching somebody like Towns just not care about his field goal attempts anymore and just, I'm just here to rebound, make some good passes and not have dumb fouls.

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  And then makes all these incredible shots, but I think that, yeah, I think this is great. So you say the thing about the top five players, you know.

• 1:20:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, you could argue, if he wins the title, he then becomes a top five player.

• 1:20:46Speaker 02

  I think he is.

• 1:20:47Bill Simmons?

  But nobody thinks that way now.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Player in the league, but I also think what you said about leadership, maybe it's you gotta be a top, because if he is the best leader currently, because Steph, but they're out of the, if he is currently like the best leader in a way, the team has taken on his characteristics, meaning the team, his character really, because he is a guy who will sacrifice, he'll sacrifice his body, he'll keep getting up, he'll keep trying too, right? How many fourth quarters has he had after games when he hasn't necessarily shot the ball well?

• 1:21:19Bill Simmons?

  And that's, that's the big thing is that I never feel like the Knicks are out of a game when they're down 15 because of him. You're always like, here we go. Okay.

• 1:21:27Speaker 02

  And he just, he is a guy, I was, I mean, I asked you this earlier, because it is a great thing, the texting, right? You and I have been texting about the Knicks since as long as we've had text, the ability to text and known each other over 20 years now. And even I texted you in the first game of the Hawks series to be like when Jalen had that opening quarter that was so incredible, you know, and, and it's like, this guy, to me, you know, sometimes even Knicks fans will get on him and I don't understand it and they'll say, share the ball. And I, on the one hand, it's part of that thing of feeling like all these years of being disappointed, but when I watch this kid, I don't see a guy.

• 1:22:09Speaker 02

  Who is selfish. I see somebody who knows his job is to take charge of the game and whether that means take charge of it by scoring, take charge of it by making a great pass, take charge of it by taking a charge. He's just willing to do whatever it takes. And I think the other guys see that.

• 1:22:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  And they get fired up.

• 1:22:28Bill Simmons?

  The charges are a big piece of that too. Yeah, he does. You know, he's not the best defender, but he is in the right places all the time and he fights, which is really, you know, all you can ask for. The Brunson centric thing, I do feel like something shifted the last three, four weeks where once whatever that little wrinkle is of moving towns away from the basket and running stuff through him, it just made them less predictable because I felt like they had the same issues that you'll sometimes see with Luca teams. You always see with the great Harden teams that never made it. The Celtics would get like this. You could kind of predict what they're going to do every play. And I think in a series that becomes hard because you're just doing the same thing seven games in a row

• 1:23:10Bill Simmons?

  and teams get used to it. I felt like what was going on with the Knicks with now I don't really know what you're going to do. And now you're, you're running as much as possible. You're getting these fast break points that, you know, you would kind of come and go. And all of a sudden it felt like this complete team overnight.

• 1:23:27Speaker 02

  Well, whatever happened when we were down 2-1, you know, that's the only time in this playoffs

• 1:23:32Bill Simmons?

  Got dark.

• 1:23:33Speaker 02

  You know, I thought we were going to lose game one when we were down in this series, but I didn't think we were going to lose the series, not even for a second. But when we were down 2-1, I really did feel like I so supported the Mike Brown move, bringing him in. It made total sense to me, but I doubted it when we were down 2-1. I was like, I don't understand how we got here. And then seeing what they did, because 2-1 felt bad, right? It felt like the past in a way. And that was the one moment that I wavered. And In the whole thing, like in the last four years, that's like the one moment because

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  once they brought Jalen in, I thought Wes and Leon have just proven it. They put this squad together. They know I'm in their hands. But down to one, I became just like all the commentators who take shots at them. And I, you know, I, I should have, I, I wish I would have had more faith in that moment. But that was the moment when I was like, what is this, you know? And then though, seeing what happened in the next game and the next game, I was like, right, don't ever fucking doubt this guy and this squad. We may not win, Wemby, you know, you got the two, I mean, a lot of people would say the two best players in the NBA. A lot of people already saying

• 1:24:52Speaker 02

  Wemby's going to go down as the best player in the history of the NBA. And it does seem hard, but I have the faith, man. I just totally, I'm full tug McGraw. You gotta believe.

• 1:25:06Bill Simmons?

  And now it's time for Air Comp, brought to you by New Era, the official cap of the NBA. We know today's players are incredible. We know they shaped a lot of the styles of the players watching today. They shaped the game we were watching today. The New Era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection celebrates those iconic moments and the players who made them unforgettable. So we'll put era side by side, 2000s and now. I was thinking two, two good ones for this. One is Stephon Castle, who I feel like you could have just easily thrown into the Pacers Pistons 2003, 2004 bloodbath series that they had. And he could have played for either team and given you

• 1:25:48Bill Simmons?

  like some of what Stephen Jackson was giving you in that series or a little Tayshaun Prince, but just, I felt like he just would have been happy in that series. But the big comp, let's go Wemby and Yao. I feel like Yao has just been completely forgotten. Only played eight seasons, his body broke down as it went along, but there was a moment with Yao when we started to wonder, you know, could this guy take over the league someday? I think he got. I think he got up to probably 25 and 10 at one point, but he was seven foot six. He didn't move like Wemby does. He was a pure center, but had that same kind of overpowering, holy crap, how is anybody gonna defend this guy when he's close to the basket?

• 1:26:32Bill Simmons?

  And unlike Wemby, was just carrying so much more weight. It was harder for him to move up and down when you saw him in person. It was just, it was like, man, I don't know how long this one's gonna last. And that's the difference with Wemby. When you watch Wemby in person, even though he's an alien and he's seven foot seven, the way he moves is just different. Like it doesn't, it just seems, there's an athleticism to him. There's a grace to him. He carries his weight the right way. Doesn't seem like he's carrying too much weight. But I thought, yeah, there was a moment there when it really seemed like it would have been shocking if Yao didn't win a title. Anyway, relive vintage logos and timeless icons with the new era NBA hardwood classics

• 1:27:13Bill Simmons?

  collection. Available in a wide range of silhouettes, including the iconic fitted 5950 or adjustables like the 940 A-frame and 970 and some great hardwood classics apparel too. Here's what you have to do. Visit newera cap.com/ringer to shop now and you can use one-time code RINGER for 20% off your first order. This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says The Daily Beast. John Tortore gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Tortore stars as an aging master pickpocket

• 1:27:56Bill Simmons?

  whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. It's also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls instantly classic. The Only Living Pickpocket in New York opens in theaters October 23rd in New York and Los Angeles, nationwide October 30th. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. I want to pour some settle down juice on everyone who says Brunson, if they win the

• 1:28:41Bill Simmons?

  title is the best Nick ever, because that's a classic recency bias thing and really does a disservice to just go, go read up on Will Frazier for like five minutes. But with that said, I do think he has a chance to be the most beloved Nick ever, right? Which is an interesting conversation.

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  Right there with Clyde. Clyde is still so beloved.

• 1:29:08Bill Simmons?

  I gotta be honest, that mid 80s Bernard, even though it was a blip was.

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  That's my favorite, as you know, that's my favorite Nick of all time.

• 1:29:17Bill Simmons?

  But I think he's in the conversation. I just don't think it lasted long enough. But to me, it's like Clyde, Bernard, and then Willis because of coming out and dragging his leg around in a game seven. But I think Brunson making the finals, he's, people are at least allowed to have the conversation now.

• 1:29:34Speaker 02

  Bernard King, April 27th, 1984, my 18th birthday, Bernard against the Pistons, when Isaiah had one of the great games ever.

• 1:29:45Bill Simmons?

  One of the best playoff games ever.

• 1:29:47Speaker 02

  But Bernard had a better game and we won in five. And it was one of the greatest, if you go, like, like, that game's available, go watch that game and you'll understand what Bernard King was able to do. That said, you're right. Right now, the most beloved Knicks are those guys. Jeremy Lin is one of the most beloved Knicks. He really is. But for me, but, but, and I mean, I'm 60 years old now. I turned 60 this year. And I love Jeremy Lin for what he gave us for those three weeks. But yeah, Jalen Brunson, that's the, that's, that's the top guy.

• 1:30:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, he hit, he hit the final stage in the game one Cleveland game, where they're down 22 and there's seven and a half minutes left, and it's a wrap. You shouldn't be watching. And normally, sometimes when we'll do the pod, when we have to go live, I'll text whoever the guest is and our producers, I'll be like, hey, let's go with three minutes. Like, this game's going to be done. Did not, as I mentioned that night, did not send the text because it's like, gotta at least see what happens here with the Knicks. What was interesting about it is how the crowd.

• 1:30:54Bill Simmons?

  Everyone was locked in, kind of waiting to see if it would unfold over the next couple of minutes, like it did with Brunson.

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  My son, Sammy never lost the faith.

• 1:31:02Bill Simmons?

  They were down 18 and they were recognizing what was happening. And that's like the final level of being really, really great in those situations.

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  Sammy never lost, lost the faith. I did. I didn't think we were coming back.

• 1:31:12Bill Simmons?

  Really?

• 1:31:12Speaker 02

  But it was really an incre- I didn't think so.

• 1:31:14Bill Simmons?

  Against James Harden?

• 1:31:16Speaker 02

  Well, that's a good point. Oh, can you explain this to me? But Sam never lost faith, though, for one second. Um, which I was very proud of him, that he didn't lose faith. What do you make of Harden just saying, I still think we're the better team?

• 1:31:30Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what to say. When, when people say, after a sweep, when you say that, that, uh, almost feels like an IQ test. You can't, you can say it if it's a 4-3, and even if it's a 4-2 and you completely blew three of the four, but if you get swept and you roll over in a game four to the point that the announcers at halftime, Bark, it was just clowning them at halftime. Like, you can't say you were a better team.

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  No, what a, I mean, I watched every second of that game last night and watching them just not even, I don't want to say not care, because they're professional athletes. I'm sure they did care, but just they kept getting beat down court over and over again on those rebounds. That felt like one of those games when you play in high school, when the other team was so much better coached than you.

• 1:32:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  And you would just be looking behind, like, how did that guy get down there again?

• 1:32:19Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:32:20Speaker 02

  You know, I mean, I remember those, I can remember playing in those kind of games and just feeling like, totally, they were completely out, outmanned and outclassed.

• 1:32:28Bill Simmons?

  It was a rap. Yeah, it was a weird one.

• 1:32:31Speaker 02

  This feels like Jalen Brunson. I'm trying to find the, the sports analog for, for this guy. He has just the greatest characteristics of so many, he's almost like, uh, he's almost like, the way Brad Gilbert would constantly win, and he was four in the world, and no one could believe he was four in the world in tennis, but he just would like get to, I mean, there was a time Brad Gilbert was the fourth, number four player in the world, and that may be where, where this guy, this guy finds himself.

• 1:32:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I remember when you pitched us a 30-episode Brad Gilbert narrative podcast. We had to turn it down.

• 1:33:02Speaker 02

  I still think we should.

• 1:33:03Bill Simmons?

  I knew you were so fascinated by Brad Gilbert.

• 1:33:04Speaker 02

  Well, I just wanted you to co-host, and I remember you said, you could only do every other episode. And then I said, well, Mallory do the other ones. And you were like, I don't know if I can lend her for that. And then that blew up the whole thing, which was a drag.

• 1:33:16Bill Simmons?

  Here's the thing with Brunson, and I think you need this when you have the amount of baggage that a team like the Knicks have. Right. You almost need some sort of supernatural human being event to make people who are prone just not to believe anymore to switch, flip their minds, right? For the Red Sox, it was Ortiz. It was Ortiz in 04. Just the slow realization over the course of those four Yankee comeback games that we had Ortiz and like that there was something magical about this guy. Brunson, now whether he can keep this going for the finals, we'll see, but Brunson at least has done that for the Knicks fans where they're not thinking about what's the worst case scenario? Because the thing we didn't talk about was that Halliburton game a year ago where it's like

• 1:34:00Bill Simmons?

  all the skeletons come out of the Poltergeist pool in that game. It's like, wait, I thought we were past this. Oh, yeah. We haven't won since 73.

• 1:34:09Speaker 02

  I was there. I mean, yeah, yeah, that was just brutal.

• 1:34:18Speaker 02

  That series almost crushed me, but the, but the truth is, and that's obviously why Tibbs is gone and that, but that didn't, um, that didn't actually dim my enthusiasm for this team. Every move these guys were like, I was upset when they traded Dante because I thought the three guys together was so important, like to have the core from Villanova. And, but they were right. Like they're just right. Leon and Wes are just right a lot. And that is such an odd thing to think about the people running this team.

• 1:34:52Bill Simmons?

  It's not that odd. And I wonder, like, if I'm an owner, if I was an owner for a losing team, I would have meetings trying to figure out, okay, here are the four teams, the three teams, the two teams that succeeded this year. Why? What are the reasons? And if I'm looking at the Knicks and I'm thinking like, well, how did they put this team together? Because they hired guys who were like relationships guys. They were guys that in the other business they had, which were, you know, they're basically player agents, representatives, and they're targeting people from age 15, 16, 17, 18. They're making bets on people. They're trying to, they're not just looking at talent, they're looking at how somebody behaves, what their background was, you know, how, what their work ethic is, how competitive they are.

• 1:35:36Bill Simmons?

  Because ultimately, they're betting on those guys as representatives because they're getting a 10% cut of everything they make, right?

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 1:35:43Bill Simmons?

  So you're betting on, you want to bet on like the safest competitive talents. And that, it's not really much different than putting together a team. So if I was an owner, I would be like, who are the other agents we can get? Who, who else sees the world like this? And could potentially put together a group of people like this?

• 1:36:04Speaker 02

  Well, they really had skin in the game. And one other thing about Wes, because you said the thing about, look, Leon's not going to talk to the press, don't worry about it. But one of the other things, right, but one of the things Wes does do is he walks around the Garden. Wes is a visible presence and not in a, not in the, I'm shadowing, I'm lingering over the bench to put pressure. No, the other thing where he walks around like, yeah, we have it all on the line. Like he shows himself, you know, so many people hide in the front office and in the back and they, the second halftime comes, they duck into the, Wes is like out there and not just down in the front row. Like he walks around, the ring in between and talks to people and people shout at him and he engages with people.

• 1:36:48Speaker 02

  And I do think, and that may be from being an agent too, right? Being in with people, being comfortable with people, knowing how to make deals. But it does instill a sense of, oh, these guys have something on the line here. Like, they're saying something about what they're doing. So they put the pieces together, but it's almost like.

• 1:37:08Bill Simmons?

  But they, but they also have advantages of, they've known Brunson forever because of the relationship with his dad. Dave knew him talent since he was 15 years old. Ananobi was the CAA guy, like they have real opinions on these guys because they have a whole background. Whereas like if you're just a typical GM and you're looking at it more like the way you and I would look at it. Like Zach Levine, what's he about? And we're just like on his basketball reference.

• 1:37:31Speaker 02

  Things broke the right way, like, okay, Ananobi, as you know, his injury, like what, but Ananobi, from the moment he came here, he was so great anytime he was playing in the Garden. I don't know how much you felt in the Garden, like the Garden loves, they love him. Like we love that guy as a, as a fan, you know, as fans in, in, in the Garden. But other things like, like Bridges showing up with that. Completely changed jumper last year and everyone being kind of freaked out. But almost like when Tiger changed his swing, it's like, don't worry, at the right time, it's going to peak. And then like, oh, because it was the jumper was ugly and he missed so much, but he knew what he was doing because like, think about how it's paying off now.

• 1:38:14Speaker 02

  So it's almost like everything that's happened, these guys really just all know what they're doing. And it's very humbling. You know, it's the thing you wish some of the commentators would understand, like, sometimes these experts, sometimes they do know something like the people in the game. And, you know, I don't want to call out a certain self identified big New York Knicks fan who's on ESPN, always saying a lot of bullshit about the Knicks, but it seems like these people do know what they're doing. And Jalen Brunson is the real thing. And we're in the championship.

• 1:38:47Bill Simmons?

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• 1:39:16Speaker 03

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• 1:40:02Bill Simmons?

  Can't believe it. I'm happy for you and Sammy and the whole Copman family. I'm also excited that I'm one of the 15 pods you've been on this month. Thanks for fitting me in the rotation.

• 1:40:12Speaker 02

  I hadn't done a pod in like two years and then Cody Rhodes asked me to do a podcast.

• 1:40:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:19Speaker 02

  And as you know, his dad, second favorite wrestler of all time, and I love Cody.

• 1:40:24Bill Simmons?

  Gotta do that.

• 1:40:25Speaker 02

  Gotta do the pod. And then once I did it, another friend asked, but listen to me. Bill Simmons, it's always, who put me in the podcast game to start?

• 1:40:32Bill Simmons?

  Wait, I have one last thing before.

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  Much to the chagrin.

• 1:40:35Bill Simmons?

  I'm not saying goodbye yet. You have a new Vegas show.

• 1:40:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:40:39Bill Simmons?

  Guys, there was all this stuff written about it last week.

• 1:40:43Speaker 02

  We start shooting in seven weeks.

• 1:40:44Bill Simmons?

  You and Levine are back in Vegas.

• 1:40:46Speaker 02

  We are back in Vegas.

• 1:40:47Bill Simmons?

  Everyone in America wants to know what part I'm playing. It's been everywhere I go, people are asking me. I heard about the boys have a new show in Vegas. So you're just gonna have a cameo? Is it gonna be like, you're playing a blackjack dealer? Are you gonna play yourself? Like, I don't know. I'm in your hands.

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  I mean, let's figure it out. What do you think? Do you wanna, you wanna put on a pork pie hat and be your gambler down on his luck? You wanna be a dealer who's taking satisfaction in someone losing?

• 1:41:16Bill Simmons?

  Can I be like a struggling actor who used to be famous but got a gambling problem? And now I'm just kinda, I don't know, I'm open for anything.

• 1:41:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know what we'll do? We'll put that version on the Ocho.

• 1:41:29Speaker 02

  And then, right? We'll put it on the Ocho and then, yeah, you can totally, you can totally do that.

• 1:41:35Bill Simmons?

  So you did Rounders, Tilt, the ill-fated tilt, Ocean's 13. This is the fourth one now in the whole gambling universe. Although there was some dabbling in Billions.

• 1:41:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was some poker in Billions. But the cast, the cast in this thing, we haven't announced all the cast, but Oscar Isaac, Alec Baldwin, David Costable, Betty Gilpin, and there's some people I-

• 1:41:58Bill Simmons?

  David Costable, your old guy.

• 1:42:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Gotta have, we're never going to battle without Costy. But the cast's incredible. Oscar is gonna crush it in this, in this part and-

• 1:42:09Bill Simmons?

  Damon Cameo, can you get him?

• 1:42:12Speaker 02

  I mean, listen.

• 1:42:13Bill Simmons?

  Just like, just a slip by? I feel like this kills renders too, but I'm fine with it. Everybody says it's never happening.

• 1:42:18Speaker 02

  You know what? I'll call you, you conference in, Matt, and we'll take it from there.

• 1:42:22Bill Simmons?

  All right. Well, I'm happy for everything that's going on with you. Uh, say hi to all your Nick fan friends. I know this has been a long journey. I'm just happy you're happy.

• 1:42:31Speaker 02

  In honor of, well, like you said, I wasn't going to do it because I didn't want to jinx anything. I didn't want it, but here's the thing. You were right. You said two things. You said, one, I should celebrate being in the championships series and.

• 1:42:42Bill Simmons?

  And having a lovable Knicks team.

• 1:42:45Speaker 02

  But also in honor of William Goldman, who you loved and I love too. And when you said that, that he had 99 and that's the last time he saw him in the championship series. And so I just shout out maybe the greatest screenwriter who ever lived, the great William Goldman and a wonderful man and, uh, one of the great Nick fans of all time.

• 1:43:04Bill Simmons?

  He's watching over us.

• 1:43:06Speaker 02

  Right up there with Spike Lee.

• 1:43:07Bill Simmons?

  He's watching over this. Thanks, Koppelman.

• 1:43:09Speaker 02

  Thanks, man. Talk to you soon. Bye.

• 1:43:12Bill Simmons?

  All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Tim Legler. Thanks to my friend, Brian Koppelman. Congrats to all the Knicks fans out there. Here's the schedule for me. I'm coming back live on Thursday night after game six. You can watch it on Netflix or you can listen to it slash watch it whenever you want on Spotify. Um, and if there's a game seven, we will be going live on Saturday night for game seven, OKC, San Antonio. So that is the schedule. Don't forget new rewatchables went up Animal House and we have 2001, A Space Odyssey coming, uh, next week, either Sunday or Monday, depending on what happens with game seven. I will see you later in the week.

• 1:43:53Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESSET. Call 888-797777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 8778HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York for Louisiana, call 877-770-7867. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys.

• 1:44:35Bill Simmons?

  Star in the Sharp Ridded Comedy Thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh.

• 1:44:41Bill Simmons?

  Writer-director of The Banshees of Minnehoshan and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters November 6. Get tickets now.

• 1:45:14Speaker 04

  Now at Kroger, your points add up to more ways to save every trip. Use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout or save at the pump. You can even save up to $35 on your next fill-up. Same points, more choices. And with low prices on fresh, quality food, plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop, your dollar goes further. Redeem your points online or in the app. Kroger, fresh for everyone. Restrictions apply. See site or store for details.