OKC Gets Wobbled, Cleveland’s Done, and Knicks Nirvana Is Here (Maybe) With Zach Lowe and Sean Fennessey

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe react to Game 4 between the Thunder and Spurs before making a pressure ranking of the series and discussing role players (1:17). Then, Sean Fennessey comes on to discuss the ECF with the Knicks looking to close out the series against the Cavs (54:06). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Zach Lowe and Sean Fennessey Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 0:26Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals finally is here. We are down to four teams. Think you know it'll go down. Take your shot with FanDuel. Get closer to the action. And as you know, I've been telling you for years, FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a better payout. Or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Or just follow me and my picks. Cause every once in a while I'll put them on social. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21 plus select states or 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat.

• 1:37Bill Simmons?

  Bill Simmons Podcast live here on Netflix. Zach Lowe is here. You can hear his pie. He just put one up last night. Little post game reaction to Knicks Cavs. Your Tuesday mornings, Thursday mornings. I have rewatchables coming Monday. Last comedy movie that we, that we did for month of May. Animal House.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Wow. Classic.

• 1:57Bill Simmons?

  Really good. Lot of great lines, had a great time. So that's coming. You can watch all those movies on Netflix. All right, we're coming off Oklahoma City, San Antonio, game four. I love game fours. Game fours are always great. Game fours are always like, you bet three games of feeling each other out. And then game four is the awesome game. Not today. That did not happen.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  But there's a certain buzz for game fours because if it's a two, forget the 3-0 game fours like we're gonna see tomorrow, the 2-1 game fours, it's the fork in the road game. It's either this is gonna be an epic potential seven gamer or 3-1 and it's gonna have to be a crazy comeback to get it to seven now, or at least we're looking, I'm just, cancel your Saturday plans now because I, wouldn't you be surprised at this point if we go like, it doesn't feel like one of these teams is gonna take the next two games consecutively.

• 2:49Bill Simmons?

  Counter.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:53Bill Simmons?

  Are we getting Jalen Williams the rest of the way here? And if we don't get him and we don't get A.J. Mitchell, the thing that jumped out tonight was just all of a sudden, OKC had one creator and San Antonio, you knew they're gonna guard Shea differently tonight. I think that was the easiest prediction to make, basically like knock yourself out. We're gonna guard the hell out of you. If you get 35, great. We're not letting these other guys get, get good shots. We're not letting them get going, which is what they did. But you could really feel the lack of a second creator in this game. So you lose Jalen Mitchell, I mean, Jalen Williams, but then you also don't have A.J. Mitchell either. Now all that goes on McCain, who stunk tonight. And I, you know, in the fourth quarter, Aaron Wiggins was running offense for them. It was just weird. All of a sudden, they felt depleted.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Well, the whole fourth quarter was kind of a, a slow motion give up by the Thunder. I mean, I know Chet came back in the game, but SGA did it. But yeah, I mean, there, there are game fours where you feel like, uh-oh, did one team solve the other team, even if it's a 2-2 series with, did what, the poster series for that is the 2015 finals when the Warriors went small and played the death lineup and everyone was like, uh-oh, is this, is this just a rap even though it's 2-2 and we should feel tense about it? I, I'm not like, I agree with you that something happened tonight that gave me a glimmer of that sensation. And it was the combination of softening the double teams on Shea to the point that we're just not doubling you high on the floor. If you get to within 14

• 4:23Speaker 01

  feet, we'll start darting guys at you, stunting guys at you, maybe a hard double here and there, but. It's gonna come late and it's gonna come suddenly and it's not gonna come every time and it's gonna be a much more confusing defense. For you to pick apart because they were picking apart the traps and the combination of that plus to your point. The lack of your second and third best creators to play off of to throw the ball to. And it felt like huh? And I spent the second half of the game trying to think like if I now know this is coming. And I don't have Jalen Williams and A.J. Mitchell. What is what is adjusting to this look like like Shay can get by anybody off the dribble? And get into the 18 foot range.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  But what does life look like after that? How am I recreating the open threes and the good shots that we got? If they're not just throwing guys at me and I I don't I I don't know the I I'm I'm workshopping some answers, but I don't have any good ones yet.

• 5:18Bill Simmons?

  Well, and you didn't even mention they're also losing all the transition stuff. They're losing the fast break stuff because he's the only guy that really felt good hands. It was not a good. Not a good night for the Kason Wallace. I'm worth 30 million a year. Agent strategy. Listen, game three. I thought Shay in game two and I didn't get to do anything after game three. I just thought. Shay was just so good in those two games and uh. Just picking them apart and the way he was using his teammates. It was about as good as you can play the guard position, right? So they knew they couldn't do whatever they did defensively again.

• 5:54Bill Simmons?

  It was notable like his stats. Torrico mentioned that near the end of the game. His stats aren't that good in this series for how well it seemed like he played in those two games. Like I think he's under 40% for the series now. I mean, Wemby was the best player on the floor, which now makes two games where he was the best player on the floor and we're at 2-2. Which is kind of where we thought we were going to be anyway. So I look at it like game two. I didn't love the officiating. I thought it really affected the game. Game four was the other way. I thought the officiating affected the game for uh. In San Antonio's favor. Dort and Caruso. Dort had 4,009 minutes. Caruso had 4,012 minutes. And it's just like they weren't allowed to have the same physicality that they've had in some of these other games. There was big free throw advantages for San Antonio. That was one thing. Wemby had a superstar game.

• 6:40Bill Simmons?

  And then I thought Castle. The two way game he played and the stuff he was doing defensively. I just thought he was awesome tonight. Just flat out awesome.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  The loudest 13.6 assist game like possible, I think. It all none of the guards. Harper, seven points in 21 minutes. Fox, 12 points in 31 minutes. Castle, 13 in 30. It doesn't like jump off the page that any of them played great. I thought Fox looked pretty good with the ankle stuff and Harper had a couple of explosive plays that are pretty encouraging for how he's feeling. But just the presence of them, 12 turnovers for the Spurs.

• 7:22Bill Simmons?

  That's the thing.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  That's a winning recipe and just a calm to the offense. And on the other side, the Thunder finished with 33 threes attempted, but they only had 11 at halftime. And I thought that number would really stood out is like they're just not creating open shots against this defense right now. And Wemby, he wasn't just-

• 7:40Bill Simmons?

  1 for 11 for three for them, by the way.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, he wasn't just the best player in the game for the second time in the series. He was the best player by a mile in the, in a game for the second time in the series. And like, that's also kind of alarming for the Oklahoma City Thunder that he's the best player by that much in half the series now.

• 7:57Bill Simmons?

  Did you think the half court shot was going in? Cause I did. I was like, that's going in.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  So I, I knew it was going in.

• 8:05Bill Simmons?

  I sound like LeBron. I'm like, I knew when he took it, I knew it was going in, but it really was like, he's gonna make this.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  I knew it was going in, but I only knew because I was about two minutes behind in the game and our text thread blew up and y'all ruined it for me. Like my friend ruined Tyrone Taylor's three run tying homerun against the Yankees last week by texting me before I had seen it. So I knew, I knew, I, I knew it was just a bunch of wows. So I knew something was gonna happen and then obviously that was it.

• 8:32Bill Simmons?

  I want to talk about Wemby in one second. You mentioned something about the guards and none of the box scores were spectacular. But to me, the turnovers was the big thing because that's what killed them, you know, in, especially in game two. But Fox, even though Fox wasn't amazing, at least he can take care of the ball. That allows Castle to be more of a two-way like freelancer guy. And I just felt like their team seemed like their team tonight. It was the team that we watched all year. Now there's some weird stuff happening. We see this happen in a series where you just start losing guys you can trust as the series goes along. I no longer think champagne shots are going in.

• 9:12Bill Simmons?

  I no longer think Calvin Johnson shots are going in. So those are two, two pretty big guys for them during the season that now feel like they're in like a major, major funk. And I'm wondering like, we get to like a game six, game seven, like really like these seven minutes are going to determine our season. It feels like it's going to be the three guards with Bassell and Wemby will be the lineup that is kind of like, this is it. These are our best five. What is it for OKC? Like if we don't have Jalen Williams again, I assume Caruso's out there with SGA and probably Chet, but what like, is it just a feel for the game? Or do you even feel like they have a best five at this point?

• 9:51Speaker 01

  I think it's a feel for the game and it starts with, do we feel better with two bigs, one big? If it's two, is it Hartenstein, Hartenstein rather, and Chet, who were minus 28, I think, coming into this game. But you know, Hartenstein was carrying the offense early on with like one ridiculously high floor.

• 10:11Bill Simmons?

  That's unbelievable.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Just one of the great stretches of random shot making in recent playoff history.

• 10:16Bill Simmons?

  He led them in shots tonight, I think.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  No, Shay caught him at the end.

• 10:21Bill Simmons?

  Oh, did Shay catch him?

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was tied for second with Aaron Wiggins. Not a great, just not a great statistical indicator.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  So which two big guys do you want? Or is it just one big guy? And then if it's one big guy, you're really like, you're, you're scraping the end of your perimeter fill out guys that we really trust with, you know, Kason Wallace would probably be in there with Caruso. And then like Dort has done pretty much nothing this series, except foul and miss threes. And, and yeah, the other guys are injured, you know?

• 10:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. If he's just going to foul and miss threes, at least like get some cheap shots in and try to change the tenor of the series. Whatever he's doing has not worked. They played a.

• 11:03Bill Simmons?

  11 guys plus Topich at the end. So they put 11 guys for real during the flow of the game. But also didn't have JDub and also didn't have AJ Mitchell. This Thunder team is so bizarre to watch in the playoffs. There's been all these cool stats about all the lineups they use and it's almost like watching a hockey team. And then he's constantly mixing and matching, but sometimes I wonder like, at some point as a playoff series goes along, I need to figure out who my five are, who my six are, who my seven are. It's just like Wiggins, like Wiggins hasn't played really all playoffs and tonight it felt like they actually needed him. So I don't know, it's, this has been a weird one because I felt like after each game, I

• 11:46Bill Simmons?

  became convinced that the team that won was in great shape and then it just flips, which I guess is the point of a seven game series. But now I honestly think San Antonio has the advantage though.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  I have no idea. I'm going to wait. If those two guys are out the whole series, Mitchell and JDub, and the Spurs injured guards can play at this level, then I agree with you. San Antonio, despite having only one home game left, has probably an edge in the series because of what we saw tonight. And I think the Thunder's best five, the lineup I've been waiting to see, and I think they've been waiting to use, well, two of the five are not playing right now. And it would, the lineup would have been Shay, Mitchell, Caruso, JDub, Chet. And I think that's the best five that they can put out. It did not play much in the regular season. It got unleashed early in the series and it, just as soon as we saw it, it's gone.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  And certainly the lack of any clarity on timetables for either guy has me a little concerned right at this moment, late at night, on whatever night this is, but maybe we'll get an encouraging update tomorrow. I don't know.

• 12:48Bill Simmons?

  The Mitchell one seems more concerning because calf strain is just automatic. You're out for at least a week, right? We don't, if they, if they'd given it the, you know, when you're reading the injury stuff, like the mild calf strain, calf tweak. That kind of, this was like calf strain. So calf strain to me means seven to 10 days, which probably takes him out. And he didn't look right even before he got hurt. You could tell like there was something up. The, the J-Dub thing, I have no idea. This has been the longest hamstring injury, I think in league history. It feels like this is just, his body has not been healthy. What did they say? He's finished two, two playoff games or something out of the three rounds?

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Well, and it's weird because when he comes back, he looks good. Like it's not like he's

• 13:34Bill Simmons?

  He looked good in game one, yeah.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  He's an enduit. He looks 70%. He looks like pretty, pretty close to all NBA J-Dub, and it does change their team. You're reminded like, oh, having a giant wing who can do all of these different things on both ends of the floor is super valuable. And then it just, he just can't kick it. And it might be one of these things that just requires a little bit more sustained off time to, to just disappear or work itself out. And obviously they don't have the luxury of that right now.

• 14:04Bill Simmons?

  They're minus 250 to win this series, Oklahoma City, which I just completely disagree with.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  That's, that's updated now?

• 14:12Bill Simmons?

  That's on Fanduel, yeah. Minus 250.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 14:15Bill Simmons?

  I do not agree with that. Cause I thought Harper, Harper looked back to me tonight. He had that one dunk in traffic where he exploded. Like he seems okay. Fox, you can tell is, you know, 75, 80% speed, but is still able to be a point guard and run the offense and all that stuff. I have an important question for you.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:35Bill Simmons?

  Who do you think the rest of the league is rooting for in this series?

• 14:40Bill Simmons?

  Like both competitively and like long-term big picture?

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Uh, I think, I think both of these teams are looked upon as, oh, boy.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  We got to deal with this for the next however many years. And there would almost be, the easy answer is the people are rooting for the Spurs, right? Because of all the officiating stuff and the thunder getaway, the fouls and the flopper. Like they're just straight up hitting Shay with the flopper chant in San Antonio, which very good performance by the Spurs fans all around. Like you gotta be, if you're gonna chant like that, you just gotta get right to the point and be as mean as possible. And it's a one word chant and it, and it does the job. But I will say there, there even, even though the OKC is the correct answer for like who teams are rooting against, I guess, the rest of the league is rooting against. There would also be like a, woo, Victor's already here. Like if they win, there's like a, they're already in the finals. Like that seems, that seems fast.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Oh my God, but I think, I think OKC is the answer.

• 15:43Bill Simmons?

  You know who's rooting for OKC to lose? The Milwaukee Bucks.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Oh boy, we're going, we're going right there. We're just veering right in there.

• 15:52Bill Simmons?

  Just becomes a quick, yes, penetrate team right away.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Do you think that that is something? I, I, I'm not ready, I'm not ready to contemplate it yet. I'm just, I'm just not. I mean, it's, it's totally against their playbook and we go through all of this. They won the championship last year. Here they are, 2-2 in the Western Conference Finals against another 60-plus win team. And it's already like, well, if they lose two out of the next three games, we gotta upend everything. I know the salary stuff, I know the consolidation, I got it. Like, we're already going there? I, maybe we are, I don't know, dude.

• 16:23Bill Simmons?

  Here's why we're going there.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 16:26Bill Simmons?

  Here's why.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  I'll go for a drive. Let's go for a drive.

• 16:29Bill Simmons?

  Now, here's why, this is it. If I'm, if I'm OKC and I lose this series to a Spurs team that's this young and isn't even close to being the team there yet, and Wemby is the difference, and I just have no answers for him. What do I do if I'm OKC the rest of the decade? Do I just like, ah, we had some bad luck? Or, or do I look at it differently and go, okay? Almost like how Minnesota, when Tim Conley went there, it was like, I have to build a team to beat the Joker. And I think the question for OKC would be, we thought we were gonna dominate the decade. That's not gonna happen.

• 17:02Bill Simmons?

  How do we construct the kind of team?

• 17:06Bill Simmons?

  That can beat a generational freak? And do we have the right team right now? Was that, was that just a weird two weeks? Or do we have the wrong roster to beat this guy? And that's where you have to think about Giannis, I think.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  You better know the answer to that question is we just don't have the right roster with a thousand percent certainty. If after all the success you've had, you are willing to throw the, throw, not throw it away, but mix it up to that extent, based on the result of a few games. And that extent is going to be

• 17:38Bill Simmons?

  But

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Minimum one of J-Dub and Chet and a bunch of picks and role players and everything you've got. It's the last big move you've got for a 31-year-old who has not gotten through a playoffs healthy in quite some time. You just, you just got to be sure. Like, yep, he broke us. We, like, we got to try something now because we'll never beat him again. You got to really be sure.

• 18:01Bill Simmons?

  I agree with that.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  They're going to be that sure.

• 18:04Bill Simmons?

  But, but here's the, here's the wrinkle. Harten, Hartenstein, I think it's a team option for next year, right? For a lot of money, combined with the, they're going to have three max guys. And they have the Dort team option. And they have the Kason Wallace, um, extension thing coming. This was their best, like roster, the way all the money worked, chance to compete against a Wemby team. And if they're going to lose already with, and the money is about to go up, when they have all these picks, when they have the 12th pick in place, I just feel like you have to look at it holistically and be like, okay, this is, it's reset time. Like, because the other thing they could do is just bring back Hartenstein at that, at that price.

• 18:45Bill Simmons?

  If they, they, if they don't pick it up, he's going to go to free agency and he'll get 20 plus million from, I think, a bunch of different teams. There's teams that have cap space and trade exceptions and all kinds of things. Like, I promise you, the Celtics would be in on that with the giant trade exception they have. So that, it's just, it's a weird one and it's a weird spot to be if you're OKC. You're like, wow, I thought we were going to dominate the last five years. Now it's 2-2. What do I do? Flip side, San Antonio's fine. Like, win or lose this series, they're like, whatever. Like, we're, we're happy to be here. Um, yeah, we could probably tweak around it. We'll figure out in February. They're not, there, there'd be no panic at all. OKC, I'd have to wonder if they panic a little.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  First of all.

• 19:25Bill Simmons?

  Presti does not panic.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Well, well done. Thank you for mentioning the last thing because I was good. I had two editorial comments for you and after that. Number one, really good job bringing up the Celtics, even though they haven't played in three weeks.

• 19:36Bill Simmons?

  Thank you. Contractually, I had to.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Do you want to do a deep dive on Vucevic and his market and whether any cap space teams want him?

• 19:43Bill Simmons?

  We know his market. It's called the, it's called the veteran minimum.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  And this, I was going to say before you, I was going to say, I have to, we have to strike a deal now.

• 19:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  I mean, I won't even be your guest on the next podcast because that's how this works. But the deal was going to be if the Thunder win game five and go up 3-2, you are not allowed to go through Spurs packages for Giannis. You're not allowed to do it. You're banned from, we can't react that way to one Spurs loss. Is that, can we make that deal? Or are you going to go off the, on that?

• 20:13Bill Simmons?

  What about, what about Trey Murphy?

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Fine. That's fine. That's reasonable. That, that's, that's allowed.

• 20:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, can we all agree, can we all agree Giannis and Wemby just is too weird and probably doesn't make any sense whatsoever?

• 20:25Speaker 01

  But weird is what you're going for, right? Like weird is what the Jazz are going for. Weird is what you have to go for if you think this is the insurmountable alien mountain that we just can't climb and, and like, we gotta try something different. That's different. Those two guys together on defense, even though Giannis isn't the same guy he has been defensively as a help defender around the rim, those two guys together, it's something. I don't know what it is on offense, but it's something.

• 20:50Bill Simmons?

  What do you think happened to Wemby on game three? In game three, now that we just saw game four? What, was he tired? Did they just have a bad strategy? I thought it was really weird watching in real time. I know you talked a little bit about it last night, but I didn't understand the, stand the strategy at all. I didn't understand why he was so far away from the basket. I didn't understand why they weren't playing with pace. He seemed a little sluggish to me and it was. Really making me wonder, did that double OT game, was that just a huge tax for both teams? But especially with him having played that many minutes. Then he looked fine tonight. So, you know, two, two days later, you throw it out the window. But what do you think happened to him in game three? Was it pressure? Was it too much adrenaline?

• 21:33Bill Simmons?

  Did OKC do something like what was your, what was your take on that?

• 21:36Speaker 01

  I mean, without being in his head, I assume there's a little bit of all the like unquantifiable stuff you're talking about, right? Fatigue, um, you know, this is a guy who's minutes have been pretty monitored throughout his career and now it's just balls to the wall. You gotta play 49 minutes in game one, whatever it was. Pressure, home playoff debut, thunder, Chet, the whole thing. But I also think it took them some time to adjust to after six, uh, what? Five regular season games and then the game one of the thunder pretty much exclusively guarding him one way. Then they go scrap everything, all of that and guard him another way with big guys with the single minded goal of we're not letting you get lobs at the rim and offensive rebounds. We're going to take your shot selection and shove it outside.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  And he, that A, they executed well. B, I think their initial reaction was the Spurs were a little back on their heels and Victor was a little bit back on his heels and he kind of like went along with that. And tonight it was going to be like both he and the guards. And I thought Castle set him up on a couple of early pick and rolls really well. There was just not going to be any denying that he's going to the basket. Even if it's not all the way there, I'm just going to take one little dribble and reach and it's going to be a hook shot or he tried to throw the ball off the backboard to himself two times. Like it was just, he was just not going to settle. Uh, but look, his first three shots were still jumpers. He took a fair amount of jumpers in the game, but there was just a different mentality and aggression level to his game.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  And I think that's just, I think that's just feeling out an elite defense who threw a monkey wrench into your plans halfway through, you know, the, the series or whatever.

• 23:11Bill Simmons?

  I agree with that. I think there's one other piece. It seemed like they were really trying to attack. And get to the basket and get in the paint, get to the rim. I don't, I haven't seen them. We tape right after these games end. But I would guess the stats for them in the paint were a little bit different in this game. And it felt like they were like, just let's attack, throw the ball near the rim for Wemby. Let's just like go downhill a little bit more because that game three was just weird to watch them. It always felt like they were either going backwards or sideways and never like going, uh, going toward the rim. The Chet piece though. He made all NBA today.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. What, what's, uh, what's our collective level of remorse for Jalen Durin over Scotty Barnes? At this, at this point after the playoffs.

• 23:58Bill Simmons?

  Zero. I'm not taking any shit for that. I'm voting centers every year for each team. And until as long as I have a vote, I'm not changing because we decided to make this like little league where everybody gets a participation trophy to be in an all NBA team. I'm not throwing away 75 years of history because they stupidly decided to change the rules. I want a center or somebody who can resemble a center. I want each of my teams to kind of look like a basketball team.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Okay. I don't want to detour down Jalen Durin.

• 24:24Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm just saying, but, but I, it's a regular season award. I have no regrets.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Now, let's talk about Chet.

• 24:33Bill Simmons?

  I thought he was a little better than this and I, maybe he's in a funk. But I really was more of a believer than what I'm seeing. And I don't, I don't mean to do the, you know, the morning TV show, Chet Holmgren's gotta step up. Like, I'm not doing that. I just honestly thought he would have more of an impact than I'm. From watching him this season, I really thought he had rounded into, you know, dead eye three point shooter. Um, just really, really severely impactful defender. Just elevates your team in all these different ways. And it feels like Wemby's in his head. Like I don't even like his body language. The only other time I remember his body language like this was in the Indiana series.

• 25:14Bill Simmons?

  I felt like you could feel him sliding a little bit a couple of times in that series where the pressure, you could just kind of see it. He was carrying it. But I thought he shed that and now it feels like Wemby's in his head. Now in his defense, Wemby's a seven foot, seven alien who came out of a UFO. Um, so I, I get it. I'm just saying, I, I honestly just thought he would play better than this.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I think we're going to do some sort of pressure list.

• 25:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we'll do that after the break. Yeah.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  But. I mean, not to spoil one of my potential picks depending on draft order. Chet Holmgren has 45 points in four games in this series. He took one three tonight despite the fact that the Spurs are playing a good chunk of each of these games in like a hybrid zone defense where someone is going to be open from three. Yeah, the guy closing out to you in the corner is going to be the alien and I get it. And we're going to hear a lot of like, well, this just isn't a Chet series. This just isn't a Chet series, the matchup stuff for him.

• 26:09Bill Simmons?

  That's not acceptable. This is the team they have to beat for the next 10 years.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Exactly what I'm going to say. This is exactly what I was going to say. At some point you reach a stature where every series has to be your series. And Chet is at that defensively, he's infallible. The guy's amazing. He's going to bring that every game. He just has like, there was just one, there was one play tonight where they're guarding him with wings the whole game, right? That's just what they're doing for the most part. And he just sort of faced up and burrowed his way to like the dotted line against Devin Vassell, drew some help and kicked out to Kason Wallace for the only three that Kason Wallace made in the game. It's like, well, I mean, like what we can't get a little bit when you're, when Shay's game is off, when the whole offense is clogged up, you can't do like, we can't get a little more of that.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  I know he's, we do this with Mobley too, right? Like he's not going to put his head down and post up and get us 25 like any big man. But like 45 points in four games, it just is not enough. I mean,

• 27:08Bill Simmons?

  Especially when you're starting to lose scores on your team game by game. It was just, I just think it's been a weird series. All right, we're going to take a break and we're going to come back and we're going to do pressure rankings for what might end up being an awesome seven game series right after this. This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says the Daily Beast. John Tortore gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Tortore stars as an aging master pickpocket whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. It's also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times

• 27:51Bill Simmons?

  Instantly classic, the only living pickpocket in New York opens in theaters October 23rd in New York and Los Angeles nationwide October 30th. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. Let's do the pressure rankings then. Let's go.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  I'm coming, I'm coming back like Devin Vassell in a hit in a trail three on the delayed, delayed break.

• 28:30Bill Simmons?

  I like that I'm criticizing Chet and then I screwed up the break that I didn't have going into the thing. At least I didn't do something like pick my nose.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Well, go, yeah, that was dangerous times. Do you want to pick first? It's your show.

• 28:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, you pick first and you just took, I assume Chet's your first pick or you want somebody else?

• 28:46Speaker 01

  No, I would want somebody else, but I did just do a Chet thing. So we'll pretend that's my first pick.

• 28:50Bill Simmons?

  No, I'll pick first. Yeah, I'll take Chet first.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 28:54Bill Simmons?

  I think Chet has the most pressure and the biggest spotlight on him now as we head into the rest of this series of.

• 29:03Bill Simmons?

  Where is it? He just, especially on the heels of the all NBA thing. I need to feel you more in this series, Chet Holmgren. You know, we talked about this with Evan Mobley too, and I do feel that I know they're down three, nothing, but I do feel like Evan Mobley went up like a half level as the playoffs went along and I just felt like defensively. I put it this way, the position there and is not Evan Mobley's fault, I don't think. And I thought he rose to the occasion. I would like to see that from Chet. So what would be your first pick for the pressure rankings?

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Well, I'll just steal your thunder and go straight to the top. Shay has had an okay series.

• 29:40Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  He's shooting 39% through four games.

• 29:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  And less than 30% on threes. Uh, he's, his turnovers are up. He had four turnovers tonight and a bunch of them are the same kind of like, I'm just gonna kind of bulldoze my way into traffic and oh my God, all these guards are awesome defensively. I just fell over and I don't have the ball anymore. Turnovers. And I, look, I get it. It's Victor Wembanyama, right? They're, they're, the Spurs have the one guy who can fuck up all the shit you're trying to do, the, all the stuff that works against every other team. And you get into the lane, you get into all your sweet spots and all of a sudden it's, it's, it's, there's a guy right behind you messing with your airspace back there and this guy over here. Um, he's just gonna have to problem solve his way out of this and, and have, if they're gonna win this series, win two of

• 30:30Speaker 01

  the next three games and J-Dub's gonna be out and Mitchell's gonna be out and we don't know, but let's just say, I think he's gonna have to have two efficient games. They're not gonna be like the crazy 16 of 23. Oh my God, this is the best guard we've seen since Michael Jordan or whatever you want to say. Uh, but like 10 of 20, 11 of 22. I just think he's gonna have to dig his way out of this and problem solve it, especially if we'd, like we talked about before, if the Spurs aren't gonna kind of half give him the answers by trapping him at half court with his, where his decision tree becomes a little easier. Uh, you know, look, we were talking about a guy who's a, a two-time MVP, now back-to-back finals MVP last year. We've talked all season about all the historical

• 31:12Speaker 01

  stuff that he's on the precipice of. Well, this is the precipice. The precipice is digging out of this series and I'm not saying he's got pressure on him. Like I'm gonna think differently of him if they lose this series or he's been a flopping fraud the whole time or anything like that. But it's just like, this is it. This is the moment where if the all-time greats find a way to dig out of, of whatever Victor Wembanyama is doing to you.

• 31:36Bill Simmons?

  I like how you frame that. And if he has a chance to be an all-time great, it's moments like this when you don't have the same team that you started the playoffs with and you're playing a ferocious opponent. Like the best example ever of this is Jordan in the 98 playoffs.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  I was gonna make the same comment.

• 31:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Scotty's back goes out. Rodman's doing whatever. He's getting drunk every off day. He's going to Vegas and Jordan just is like, all right. And just, you know, but that's the greatest basketball pool we've ever had. There's been other good examples. Like my favorite Bird season was 87 when McHale had the foot, Parrish had an ankle, DJ had an ankle, Bill Walton couldn't play and Bird just kept kind of throwing people on his back. Feels like we're there with SGA. I think one thing, there's, one of the narratives from coming out of this game into game five will be the officiating and that OKC got hosed on calls and their fan base and I don't blame them. Their fan base is going to say, you guys complain about us, that we get all the calls, we get to foul, we flop. Well, we didn't get any calls in game four. And, and

• 32:38Bill Simmons?

  SGA got banged around by Castle and they didn't call it, but Wemby got banged around and they called it. And, and we want more fair treatment for MVP. So that'll be a whole narrative the next two days. With that said, I'm just not really that afraid of leaving some of the guys open that were out there. Right? Like, I'm okay with Wallace wide open. I'm okay with Lou Dort. Caruso is the Josh Hart of this team. It's like, you're gonna live with it until he makes a couple. You know, they had Williams was, Kendrick Williams was out there at one point hitting corner threes, but I just don't know who I trust on that team. Isaiah Joe seems like their instant three guy, but they don't seem to go in that often anymore. And then Wiggins would be the other one, but I just think

• 33:23Bill Simmons?

  they're gonna guard him the same way they did tonight and he's gonna have to be awesome. But if you're doing, if you're doing same game parlays, like the SGA points with the OKC win would be the reliable one, I think, for game five.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  I think those Kenrich Williams corner threes are really interesting plays to go back and re-watch because the Spurs found a bit of a roadmap tonight. And look, the roadmap is having Victor Wembanyama, but this roadmap was, Shay, you pick your matchup at the top of the arc, like 35 feet away. You want to run a screen and roll and get champagne on you or Vassell on you or someone you feel a little more comfortable with, Fox, than you do Harper, Castle. Fine, we'll give you the switch. You're gonna beat that guy off the dribble. Cool. Like beat him off the dribble.

• 34:05Bill Simmons?

  Two.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  We're not going to double you. We're not even take your two. Because if you beat a guy off the dribble one on one, it's not like that guy disappears. He's gonna be right on your hip at the Kaden Shay plays. And then you're going to get to 16 feet. And when you get to 16 feet, a couple of things are going to happen. Thing number one is the alien is going to be in your airspace a little bit. Thing number two is there might not be a double team, but you're going to see the guy on your right and the guy on your left. Kind of on their toes, half stunting, getting you in your field division.

• 34:33Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Messing with messing with your mind. And those reads, those moments, I don't know what the answer is when you're in that kind of sandwich of like four guys all around you and one of them Victor Wembanyama.

• 34:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  And you haven't been given a trap 30 feet from the rim, which just unleashes the past, past, past threes they've gotten. But that's where those Kenridge Williams threes in the right corner came out of is it is that moment just like that? And maybe the answer is the Thunder are just going to have to play all their shooters and hope that they make enough of those threes that they get San Antonio out of that. Cause I don't know what Shay's supposed to do in that airspace or how to get him in a different airspace against that defense. Like there was that one floater he took where you could see him thinking like, I'm shaking, I gotta get something in this space. And it was just this moon ball, one handed, right handed moon ball that had no shot at going in. And it was like,

• 35:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  You don't see a player of his skill set look that. Like unleash a shot that like is a no chancer from 13 feet away.

• 35:35Bill Simmons?

  Jalen Williams, not the injured one, the center, one for seven from three tonight. McCain was over five. Isaiah Joe was two for seven. Dort was over one.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Caruso took one shot, I think, right?

• 35:49Bill Simmons?

  Chet was over one. Yeah. Caruso, uh, little one too many greatest role players ever segments for him on podcasts and TV shows last two days. The gods had to like, had to like ding him with the with the hammer.

• 36:02Bill Simmons?

  But those shots I thought for the most part were pretty open. And they just didn't make them. When you they missed 31 of their first 35 threes, right?

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Dort Dort has 15 points in the whole series. And I know we're not going to him for, I think he has two threes and I know we're not going to him for points. Like that's not what he does, but the Thunder, when they're rolling and when they won the championship, there's just a lot of Lou Dort, two for five, three for seven kind of games where he just makes just enough to make it hurt and he has two in four games.

• 36:38Bill Simmons?

  That's somebody that I don't feel like will be in the Thunder next year.

• 36:42Bill Simmons?

  Team option, they've gotta put money somewhere. It's a different conversation. All right. My next pressure pick.

• 36:53Bill Simmons?

  You know, you just took the best guy in OKC.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I've left you with not much to do.

• 36:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's, it really has to be Wemby and the, and normally I would say, ah, he's 22 and he's playing with house money at this point. He's, this is, this playoffs have already been a massive win for him, but A, they have a chance to win the title. B, we saw him get a little spooked in game three, I felt like, or whatever was going on with him. So it's not like he's, we know he's human because if he wasn't human, he would just be rolling through the league every game. But I wonder as we get closer and closer to the end of this and the spotlight gets bigger, his tendency is the hotter the spotlight, the better he plays. So we'll see, but um, it just feels like if he has a game like he had in game one, or even a game like he had tonight, then

• 37:42Bill Simmons?

  I feel like they're going to win the series with the injuries on OKC's side. Kind of up to him. What's your next one?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. If he, if he's the best guy by a significant margin, obviously that's a, um, that's a big one. I, I was going to cheat and just go the collective of Fox, Harper, Castle and only because

• 37:58Bill Simmons?

  Guard crew.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  The guard crew, only because

• 38:03Speaker 01

  keeping the turnovers down is the single best way to get yourself into a game against the Thunder. And they did that tonight and it's been a little up and down throughout the series because two of those guys have not, have played limited minutes in a couple of games and Castle's been overtaxed, but. If it like, I mean, you would want to single out Fox because he's the vet, the experienced guy. But I just think the three of them together have to have a very clean game, two more very clean games.

• 38:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would have taken Castle with my next pick for just because of some of the stuff I talked about in my pod on Thursday, about the Westbrook 2008 to 2016. That side where he's just, you love everything he does, but there's, there's a couple of times he gets a little out of control, a little sloppy. Now that Fox is there, it feels like that goes away. My next guy would be McCain because if they don't have Mitchell and they don't have Jalen Williams, and I thought he, I, he just didn't have it tonight. He was terrible. And this was after a weekend of everybody shitting on Daryl and oh my God, and I can't believe they traded him. So where do you stand on that trade when it happened?

• 39:09Speaker 01

  I was surprised. I was certainly surprised that it was the way Philadelphia chose to save money.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  I was, I just, I, I wouldn't give up a player that had showed me what he showed in, albeit 20, whatever games as a rookie. I was kicking myself for not anticipating the Thunder being the team to overpay and get him. It was just such a perfect trade and such a perfect fit. He's sort of like their super duper version of Isaiah Joe, not, not the shooter that he is, but someone who, with a lot more ball handling juice and kind of moxie to his game. I understood, I understood why the Sixers did it.

• 39:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  And that they got more return than they were going to get ever trading Jared McCain because he was not playing for their team, uh, which is also their fault. But, and that he was trapped behind those two guards who are going to be their franchise mainstays. But I don't know, it's, it seemed like a unnecessary gamble to me.

• 40:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so he wasn't playing for them and I think the the case was that his stock was only going to get worse. And you're cashing in on these picks that are easier for trade. We've heard the arguments. My, the question remains to me is why wasn't he playing more? It's not like he was on the 86 Celtics. And Maxey was playing 40 minutes a game and Edgecombe was playing like 39. So even if you say, well, he's behind those guys. It's like, well, so what? You still have 96 guard minutes per game. You still have an 82 game season plus playoffs with, you know, injuries and all the wear and tear of a season like, why wouldn't you want to have three good guards? And I, it's just, it felt like Nurse probably, probably quit on him a little bit and it was only going to get worse.

• 40:52Bill Simmons?

  And it's like, whoa, if we get to the offseason, we won't even be able to get a first for him. But I, I just, it was a weird one because he did so well last year as a rookie. You know, it's not, it's not like it's, oh, this, it wasn't like a Cam Reddish thing. It's like, oh, he's got so much potential. He was so good in high school. Like, Jeremy Kane was good last year before he got hurt. So, so we're traded and I get it that they wanted the assets, but wouldn't it be suspicious to you if OKC was like, we love Jared McCain?

• 41:20Bill Simmons?

  Here are a bunch of picks for him. That would be a fucking red flag. It's like, maybe we should keep this guy. Presti really wants him. Like, like should we be reevaluating this?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, you wonder if Sam Presti, again, I know he's probably not going to be in our rotation, but it's a nice flyer for us. And look, we have all these extra picks.

• 41:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, just take some of our picks. We'll take them off your hands.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  And here he is in the rotation, but to your point, three-point shooting has kind of cooled off even in his big game. And in game three, it was mostly twos. Uh, and he took a ton of shots, which is fine. They needed guys to take a ton of shots. It's a good pick. That's because if it's not those two guys, the J Dub and AJ, then it's gotta be, it's, someone among this group is going to have to give you 18 to 22 points. Like, it's just, it's cool. Okay. Well, Kason Wallace was five of eight from three. It's going to have to be one of those guys.

• 42:07Bill Simmons?

  What do you have for your next pick? Do you have anybody left?

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Well, look, I mean, I don't know.

• 42:12Bill Simmons?

  We haven't taken a coach.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, one coach just won the championship a year ago and the other coach is a, you know, was a former interim, now permanent fill-in for one of the greatest coaches of all time. And this team won 60 whatever games. I don't, you know, I don't think there's any, I don't think any seats are getting hot. I'll go, I'll go like, this is going to be near and dear to your heart. I don't know if the nuns can go to every game, but I just, I just, it's not his fault. It's not his fault. But Luke Cornet minus nine and 13 minutes. I will just put him in as the symbol of, even in this blowout game.

• 42:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  The non-Wemby minutes are just, are, it's, it's Jokic-y now where it's just like, I don't know what the best lineup combination is. Do we throw all the guards out there? But I'll put him in as the unfair standalone symbol of those minutes.

• 43:07Bill Simmons?

  I thought Cornet was okay today.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  He was good. This was the best game of the series, I think.

• 43:11Bill Simmons?

  I'm going with the, the two ladies who, their bodies from the neck down were just on camera behind Mitch Johnson. And there's, there was some commotion about them on the internets.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 43:23Bill Simmons?

  Heading into the game. Yeah, this wasn't the first time. And, and I think it's going to become a talking point. And I think people are going to be looking forward to game six. Certain types of people on the internets that enjoy these things. But it was certainly, it was certainly interesting every time they cut to Mitch Johnson, what was going on behind him.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  So you're saying they're, they're under pressure?

• 43:44Bill Simmons?

  They're under pressure. Yeah. Cause now people are expecting it for game six. Like if the Spurs are up 3-2. Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Did you see, I, I know you're a fan of watching, we can, we like, with the, with the way we watch games, we see the in-arena entertainment sometimes during the commercial breaks. Did you see Mark Henry's appearance tonight?

• 44:05Bill Simmons?

  I did not.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, if you want to talk about someone who's under pressure, I would nominate Rumble, Rumble the Bison. The Thunder mascot was at this game in San Antonio. And in one, unless I took acid and hallucinated it, in one of the, the commercial breaks, they had Mark Henry come out from the stands. And I was like, I don't know, like, what's Mark Henry doing here? What's gonna happen? And he chair shotted Rumble the Bison and, and then kicked him a little bit on the ground while the Spurs Coyote, like freaking Jimmy Hart with the megaphone, was like jumping around taunting Rumble the Bison. So my question for Rumble the Bison is, why'd you agree to this? Why are you at this game?

• 44:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're losing to Mark Henry.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  You didn't, you didn't think like, oh, the Spurs are being so nice, inviting me to the game. My mascot friend must really love me. You didn't think the setup was in play? And how are you gonna respond? Is the Coyote getting invited? Is the Coyote getting kidnapped? Like, how are you gonna respond to this? You can't just let this stand.

• 45:03Bill Simmons?

  Maybe they're doing a home and home.

• 45:06Bill Simmons?

  Is that possible? Maybe they, now he has to go to OKC.

• 45:12Bill Simmons?

  I had a couple, couple side note things. And then I want to ask you who you think's gonna win game five. So there's a lot of role player, Caruso, where he stands in the role, role player all time rankings, all that stuff. You see the best role player of the 2020s, best role player of the century. Reggie Miller in the pregame show was talking about how important role players are, and then proceeded to list multiple guys who weren't role players, who were actually just really good players, who were like borderline NBA guys.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  I didn't see this.

• 45:39Bill Simmons?

  He was going backwards. And he was like, 2024 Derrick White. And then, and I was like, ah, Derrick White's not a role player. I just, there's a specific type of role player Mount Rushmore that I think we have to discuss. And the first person who has to be mentioned anytime the conversation happens is Robert Horry. I just want to say that as a PSA to everybody who likes basketball. Everybody has a platform. Robert Horry has to be the first person you mention. It can't be Alex Caruso. It can't be Derek Fisher. It has to be Robert Horry, won seven titles. This was, I put him in my pyramid of my basketball book.

• 46:19Bill Simmons?

  He's the only role player that made it because he had so many big moments that I wrote this thing about. And I was like, if I told you the Robert Horry game is on ESPN classic, you wouldn't know what game I was talking about.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Is he on the Spurs?

• 46:32Bill Simmons?

  Seven games.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Is he on the Lakers?

• 46:33Bill Simmons?

  Give me the team and I'll try to guess what game it is. So Robert Horry has to be first and he's the perfect example of a role player where he doesn't matter if he's getting his stats. He always has a knack for getting better at it matters. He's always doing the dirty work and that's to me a definition. Derek White's like a star, like he's a really good player. Igudala is an interesting one. We're on Golden State. Golden State, Igudala became a role player, like an overqualified role player. Right? I think the four best are Horry, Igudala until Caruso. And I'm, and I want to add the Caruso combo really quickly. Horry, Warriors, Igudala, Derek Fisher and Michael Cooper.

• 47:16Bill Simmons?

  Now I'm not, this is my lifetime, so I'm not doing Casey Jones, Satch Sanders, people like that. But I think those are the four. And then apologies to Bobby Jones, who I think was better than a role player. I actually think he was like a notch above. Mario Elie is definitely there. Danny Ainge, I don't know where to put him.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Kiss of death Mario. Mario Elie is one of my all time favorite role players.

• 47:37Bill Simmons?

  He's in there and then, and then Caruso. But does Caruso crack the top four for you like post merger? Cause he's got the title on the Lakers. He's got the title of OKC, has a chance to win another one. If you get three, like you're really in a different conversation now.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  You know, who has three with three different teams is Danny Green. Also a very good role player of recent vintage.

• 48:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm going to add him. Add it to the list. That's a great one.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  I think we need parameters to your point about Derrick White and even Andre Iguodala. Derrick White received all NBA votes this today. The balloting came out. He received a few third team all NBA votes. I don't know if a role player can receive all NBA votes and Iguodala is an all star. Like I do. Are we allowing all stars? Like one time, two time all stars? Drew Holiday, is he a role player? We gotta throw them out.

• 48:28Bill Simmons?

  Well, so I guess the question is, if you're one of your best four players on your team, are you a role player?

• 48:33Speaker 01

  I think the fourth best player could be in a lot of cases, a quote unquote role player.

• 48:39Bill Simmons?

  I think it has to be five through nine.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Okay, that's fine. I'm fine with that. I'm just saying like Iguodala was a 20 point scorer in an all star. I believe he made an all star team in his early one, maybe in his Sixers era, maybe.

• 48:52Bill Simmons?

  Like J. Mon Green's another one, not a role player. Like, don't put him in this. It has to be like a Mara LA. The team could win with or without the person. They could probably survive, but the person is the cherry on the sundae, you know? Who's your favorite random role player ever?

• 49:10Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 49:10Bill Simmons?

  Who's your guy who just never, who never really landed on the right team? Josh Hart, by the way, is another role player. Mount Rushmore potentially, but he hasn't won a title, but he's.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  That's a, that's a good one. Um, he's, he's right at the point though. Is he too good for role player status? I don't know.

• 49:26Bill Simmons?

  He's not a top four guy on his team. But is there a guy that you were like, man, if he'd only just landed on the right team?

• 49:34Speaker 01

  I'm gonna just throw three names at you. Just that you, I have no preparation. You're just.

• 49:38Bill Simmons?

  I know. I didn't prep you at all.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Um, Trevor Ariza.

• 49:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, Trevor Ariza won one though. He gets one for 09. So he gets to at least be in this little club.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:48Bill Simmons?

  SNL five timers club. You get the jacket at least.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  He might, he had better years than this because of the teams he was on, but I just had the softest of soft spots for Lofunzo Ellis.

• 49:59Bill Simmons?

  Oh, interesting. I like that one.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  And same era, same team. I, I just like late 90s me was like, man, these teams should be trying to get Vashawn Leonard on their team. He's like, just, he's just a random, like a Mario Ellie kind of guy, tough. Like he, you know, the Heat got him at one point. I just, for some reason, I just loved Vashawn Leonard. This just, again, random names.

• 50:21Bill Simmons?

  I have a, one that never gets mentioned anymore and should is James Posey.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:28Bill Simmons?

  Two out of three years won the title doing awesome role player stuff. There's other versions of it, right? There's the Eddie House type. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that fits for this. Fisher was an amazing one. Fisher had just one of the most bizarre careers ever was just in a, I think he's like second or third most playoff games ever. Was on all of these different teams, even when OKC, who's basically a dead body on OKC and OKC is like, well, it's still Derek Fisher. Maybe he still has it and they were still wrong with him. Okay.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Well, can I, can I throw another name? We're in name some guys territory. Yeah. Did, did Nick Batum ascend beyond this at, at his Portland prime?

• 51:09Bill Simmons?

  Never won the, yeah, well, he's, he's a classic never, did he even make a finals?

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't think so.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  All right. Well, we named some guys. That was fun. Bishan Leonard, shout out Bishan Leonard. Oh, Tayshaun Prince is a fantastic.

• 51:24Bill Simmons?

  He counts, right?

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Oh my God, he counts. Yes.

• 51:26Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Great. Uh, who do you have winning game five?

• 51:32Speaker 01

  I picked Thunder in seven. I'll pick the Thunder win game five. I don't, I don't, you, you, someone asked me this. I was at the Knicks game the other day, game two. And people are like, oh, do you think he's gonna win? Do you think so? I'm like, let me just, let's just go through what's happened in the last two weeks. Cleveland with a chance to close out the Pistons at home in game six, gets their asses kicked by a million points. And so, oh, the Pistons have all the momentum. They're going home for game seven. They lose by 30 points, like the individual games. I don't know. I'm just going to say the Thunder, because I picked the Thunder, but I, I will say something in my, you know what? No, forget it. Spurs, Spurs figured something out tonight and the Thunder rattled. I'm going to go Spurs. I think with Thunder in seven, I'm sticking with Thunder in seven.

• 52:13Bill Simmons?

  I think Spurs, I could, I would lean toward them game five because of the injuries. I don't think it'll mean they win the series.

• 52:21Bill Simmons?

  That's where I would land.

• 52:24Bill Simmons?

  Okay. I think it's, we're almost time to bring Sean fantasy in to talk about the Knicks. But before, as we, as we, as Sean warms up in the bullpen

• 52:37Bill Simmons?

  here.

• 52:40Bill Simmons?

  What are you, on a scale of one to 10?

• 52:45Bill Simmons?

  What are you prepared for with Cleveland in the offseason if they get swept?

• 52:50Speaker 01

  I mean, everything, anything. I mean, I don't.

• 52:53Bill Simmons?

  Do they have one person you'd be like, no way they're trading that dude?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Um, no. Do you?

• 53:02Bill Simmons?

  So if they brought me in as a conciliary?

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:06Bill Simmons?

  I would, Mobley would be my one keeper. I'd want another year with him. I liked how he played in the playoffs and I just feel like I hang nothing on him. And if I'm giving up Mobley, I have to get somebody else. I'm not trading Mobley for Giannis. That's an absurd trade. There's no way they should do that. It's crazy because last year I suggested that would be the trade. All the Bucks fans got mad at me. I just wouldn't do it. I don't think Giannis is changing the destiny of the Cavs winning the title. I don't think that was their issue. Their issue was that they have a backcourt of Donovan Mitchell and James Harden who can't guard any guards.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Well, I, I'm not, I was just playing devil's advocate because the argument for it, which you can find people who would make, I, I, I would be very hesitant to do it too and probably not. Cause then I've just made myself, in two deals, I've made myself so much older all of a sudden. Uh, but I do, I do now have an interesting two-year, three-year window with Donovan Mitchell and Giannis. That's interesting. But, um, I, I don't know that I've seen enough from this team to be like, well, we're, you know, we're so close.

• 54:09Bill Simmons?

  If Brooklyn called and said, we'll give you the sixth pick in our 2029 first for Mitchell. We'll just take him off your hands. I would do it.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  No way.

• 54:20Bill Simmons?

  No way for who?

• 54:21Speaker 01

  You're doing that as Cleveland?

• 54:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  I mean, look, you like.

• 54:26Bill Simmons?

  I'm not even blinking.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  You like all those guys at six, 2029 first, I'm assuming Brooklyn is, I mean, look, all the pick values are going to change.

• 54:33Bill Simmons?

  And I save 50 million and all the luxury tax stuff. And do I think Mitchell is going to be on my team two years from now? Is he going to stay? I'm doing that.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Well, okay. So you gave your, you gave your consigliere self-knowledge of Donovan Mitchell's plans that I personally don't have. And he said all the right things about Cleveland. I want to stay in Cleveland. He signed extensions there before.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  But, you know, there is an interesting conversation to be had of like, is, with all these guys, really? Like, is the next contract going to be worth it?

• 55:06Bill Simmons?

  I'm resetting. I made a run at it. It didn't happen. I have a chance to get an all NBA guy in this draft. I keep Mobley. I reset. I reset my tax. Um, I lick my wounds and I get ready to make another run at it with a younger team.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  I would.

• 55:20Bill Simmons?

  Is where I would land.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  I would love to still have Darius Garland in that scenario, but alas.

• 55:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:27Speaker 02

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• 56:12Bill Simmons?

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• 56:53Speaker 01

  Not.

• 56:54Bill Simmons?

  But alas, you know who we do have is Sean Fennessey.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Oh, boy. Yes.

• 56:59Speaker 03

  What's up?

• 57:00Bill Simmons?

  So I owed Sean fantasy this appearance because we've known each other for 14 years. I've made 100 million Knicks jokes. He's also come on my pod many times after sad Knicks events. Feel like almost exclusively, almost every time you've come on, something terrible has happened with the Knicks. They've had a bad loss. They've done a dumb trade.

• 57:24Bill Simmons?

  Now everything's flipped. So you have the floor. Just tell us how it feels.

• 57:28Speaker 03

  Not today, Bill. It's Memorial Day weekend. I've been drinking. I'm feeling really good right now, man.

• 57:34Bill Simmons?

  I feel like I want to go get a glass of wine, come back and just really sav- really savor this.

• 57:39Speaker 03

  Well, you know, it's funny, the last time I was on was the last bad moment I've had as a fan of this team. It's amazing. I came on after, what was it? Game three of that Hawks series and I, we could not have been more low. Two brutal one point losses. And look at us now, we're flying, Bill.

• 57:58Bill Simmons?

  10 in a row? Some interesting stats, Zach, with this 10 in a row and the point differential. And stuff about teams, like if they pull off the sweep tomorrow, teams that have only lost twice, heading into a finals. Some pretty interesting teams on the list. I, to me, I thought whoever won this West series is winning the title. And now you see the attrition on both sides in this West series. I don't even know who's going to be playing next week, whereas the Knicks are going to be nice and rested. And it's just feeling pretty magical. I don't know, Zach, where's your head at with this Knicks thing? You talked about it a little last night.

• 58:36Speaker 03

  I said it after the Philly series, they can win the championship. You know, I think the Spurs is a coin flip. I think full strength thunder is, I think I said like 25, 30% chance the Knicks could win.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Obviously, the Thunder aren't at full strength. I think this is a legitimately really good team that has found whatever they needed to find and are in this zone now that I don't think they're coming out of it. I don't think there's a crisis around the corner where all of a sudden they lose their rhythm, or you know, Towns all of a sudden wants more shots, or whatever it is that would disrupt their rhythm. I don't, I don't think that's coming. I think this is the team, and this is the level of play we're going to see going forward. And I think they're just a strange, they're a strange team. Like Brunson is a strange guy to game plan for. Towns at the five is, is a really interesting, tough look to deal with. And when they put Shamet in, it's really tough to deal with. They're just, they're an unusual team that plays at an unusual cadence. And I, I think they're going to

• 59:33Speaker 01

  sustain this level of play. And I said after the Phillies series, they can win. This is not, this is not, you know, I was at game one Knicks Cavs, and it was the day after game one Spurs Thunder. And there was like some snickering going around about from some of the people, you know, some of the league figures, agents, et cetera, in attendance, not people with the teams. So yeah, that was a nice win by the Knicks. You had a nice comeback, but like the real finals is happening over there. And I was like, I don't think that's true. I just don't think that's true anymore. I think they can win.

• 1:00:04Bill Simmons?

  Sean's head's gonna explode.

• 1:00:05Speaker 03

  I, I, I've been turning this over in my head, obviously, a lot. And I was just in Europe for 10 days and like watching games at 2 o'clock in the morning and trying to wrap my head around what was really going on here. And I was afraid to come back to the United States, to be totally honest. I was nervous that if I came back, things would go awry. And then I just watched yesterday's game in normal Pacific time and everything, again, just, they just seemed different. And I remember watching them in February, and Bill, we probably were texting about it back then, when they just seemed not together. It was unclear what Towns' role really was on the team. He was doing the same dumb defensive lapses and stupid fouling that he's been doing for the first decade of his career. And things came together near the end of the season. They started playing better in

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  the last 10 or 15 games of the year. They did win the NBA Cup. It's not like, they did win 50 games. And you know, it's not like they weren't consistently good this year. But um, you know, I think also some things broke right for them in the playoffs. I think it's nice that the Celtics had to play an incredibly inspired Sixers team who were desperate to beat the Celtics. The Pistons, I think, were a paper tiger all season, but they also did not particularly have answers for the two teams that they played. And I gotta give it up to Mike Brown, man. I don't know how much you guys have been talking about it, but he's done stuff with this team that Tibbs was not doing. And it was controversial, especially in New York, whether or not Tibbs should have been fired. And it's a huge freaking relief to me that he was, even though I think he's responsible for rebuilding

• 1:01:35Speaker 03

  this franchise in a lot of ways, because Mike Brown is flexible, man, and he plays the bench. And the bench has been a huge part of this run, the fact that they're so deep. I remember I was talking to CR before the Sixers series and he was like, well, you guys aren't deep. And I was like, that's wrong. Like this, this team routinely plays eight guys, sometimes nine guys in playoff games. And I don't know if you guys have been watching Landry Shamet for the last three weeks, but he looks like an elite bench player in the NBA. It's been amazing.

• 1:02:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Kyrie completely quit on him. And when he was on Brooklyn, I remember feeling like he was on his way out of the league. I was looking, so this has been a 10 game odyssey to get to the point they got to yesterday. I was so impressed by how they played yesterday. And you look at the box score. And it's like, if you were just drawing on a map, what the ultimate Knicks box score would look like. The Brunson had 30, OG Bridges had 23 and 21, and Bridges was 11 for 15. And you felt him the whole game. Right? He was just, he was either running the floor, or he was running in little open spaces in the half court. He was just, you felt him. Whereas like most of the season, it felt like he was just in the corner with his hand up or not doing anything. Towns was 13, 8 and 7 with zero turnovers.

• 1:02:46Bill Simmons?

  Hart was 12, 9 and 5 with four steals. And Shamet had 14 off the bench. They were 11 for 28 from threes. They shot 55%. And they had actual ball movement. He's looking, it's like this, these six guys make sense together. And then you throw in McBride and Mitch, now you have eight. But it was, watching this, I was like, it's felt a little 2004 range Pistons to me.

• 1:03:11Bill Simmons?

  Which is interesting because I think that was the model for how they built this team. Like it was Leon Rose and Worldwide Wes. Wes was a huge Pistons guy, like he was a Detroit guy and that model of like just bringing in competitive veterans, guys like hitting the right points of their careers, guys who are going to sacrifice. And you go through the moves they made, like the Pistons, they, they had Ben Wallace, they signed Billups and traded for Hamilton in the same summer. They drafted Taishan, but then the big move was they fired Rick Carlisle and hired Larry Brown. It's basically what the Knicks did with Tibbs, right? And then the Rasheed Wallace deadline trade was the other one. The Knicks, they had some luck with Dallas fucking up the Brunson thing, right?

• 1:03:55Bill Simmons?

  That was a four for 55 Zach for Brunson, Dallas could have locked them down.

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  There's a whole, I don't think we have time to dig into the whole Jalen Brunson, who said what, when, what was offered, when, why wasn't it offered when?

• 1:04:08Bill Simmons?

  It's just outrageous that Dallas lost him.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  Yes, there was a time where they could have locked him down for that. And if they had been a little more proactive, I think they probably could have.

• 1:04:17Bill Simmons?

  So they signed Hartenstein, who was like a stopgap. But the other big lucky break for them was the Mitchell Utah trade, which I forgot the details. Do you remember what the holdup was on that trade, Sean?

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  No, what was the holdup?

• 1:04:30Bill Simmons?

  The Jazz really wanted Grimes in the trade. And the Knicks wanted quickly in the trade. And it became like, well, it's either three unprotected firsts or two firsts and unprotected, depending on who was in it. And then they said, fuck you and went and took the Cleveland trade. Zach, if they had Mitchell and Brunson, does that team make sense to you? Plus you don't have all the extra picks to trade for Bridges.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  I was also going back and rereading the Donovan Mitchell trade stuff for different reasons. But I, I remember thinking at the time, and Ian Begley was, is and was the most plugged in Knicks guy at the time. And he had a lot of the details about, well, this offer was made here at this timeline. And was there a pick here? And it's just like, it just made me think.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Did the Knicks really want to do this? Like.

• 1:05:19Bill Simmons?

  Right, they wanted to do it on their terms almost versus actually wanting to do it.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Because they they knew the question you just asked me about like these two guards, small score firsts. Like, is this actually going to work? And if we use all these assets here, what do we have left for stuff down the line? I I look, I'm sure there was part of their front office that really wanted to do it. And there was debate internally about this pick, that pick. But the bottom line is they did not go as all in as they needed to go all in. And I think it unquestionably.

• 1:05:48Bill Simmons?

  Saved them.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  It unquestionably, the roads not taken for them are are that are Embiid. And obviously, Giannis is the one that have to Sean's point halfway through the season. All the discourse was while they blew with McIlbridge, they don't have picks for Giannis. They're hopeless and you know, they're just kind of stuck. You know what? I was re-listening to the live show I did in Brooklyn because I felt at the time it was mid March. And I felt like the whole show was me giving Knicks fans a pep talk like, no, you guys are. That you guys are third in offense, six in defense.

• 1:06:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  I know it's been a little rocky, but like who who's beating you in the East? And because it felt like Knicks fans needed a pep talk as like, I don't.

• 1:06:30Bill Simmons?

  Sean needed one, I could tell you that much.

• 1:06:33Speaker 03

  I I didn't have huge expectations for the playoffs. I thought they should definitely beat the Hawks. And then after that, I thought it was a crap shoot because I thought any any of those top five teams. A lot of things also like the Magic, not having to deal with the Magic and then the Magic kind of falling apart. Was another thing that went their way. There were a million things that went their way. The to the the point about Donovan Mitchell. If they had acquired him and they tried to pair them together, I think it might have been a somewhat similar situation that Brunson had to contend with through the first. Four seasons of his professional career, essentially playing behind Luca. And so you could say like the Mavs mismanaged that scenario, or maybe there was nothing they really could have done by just having. A superstar backup point guard behind the single best backcourt player in the sport. But I you just can't under like overstate.

• 1:07:19Speaker 03

  Who and what Brunson is, I, there's just, there has never been a New York Knick like him. There are very few players in the NBA like him. I think like maybe now finally NBA fans who like, even if they deep down hate the Knicks, like you can't watch him for nine consecutive fourth quarters and consistently watch him just take over games and be unguardable. I mean, his shot making, he's been doing this since he came to the Knicks. This is not new. It's like, it's the supporting cast that you just described, Bill. It's those guys, those pivotal moves that they've made, acquiring OG, acquiring Mikail, you know, building up Robinson so that he could play 65 games in a season, acquiring Kat. All of that stuff has changed. Brunson's been basically

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  the same guy who scores 27 points a game, who is fearless down the stretch, who always puts the team on his shoulders. And when the team isn't going well, we can point to him and say, oh, well, you know, it's, it's ISO ball and it's all Brunson and he's taking nine of 13 shots in the fourth quarter. But when they're going good and when the supporting cast looks good, that works. And it's gonna, it has been working throughout this playoffs. And I genuinely, you know, you can talk about like Walt Clyde Frazier, you know, there's Earl Monroe, because it's a very short list of guys that he is now getting into the conversation with after just five seasons. And I don't know, it's making my head spin. It's, I just, when we picked him up, I was, I was not

• 1:08:42Speaker 03

  against the move at all. It was obviously a very savvy contract, but never in my wildest dreams that I ever think he would become this person to the franchise.

• 1:08:50Bill Simmons?

  We all like Brunson. I think the Knicks felt like he could be this guy. I do think Lionel West did feel that way. I thought that was crazy. I clearly thought he, I might've even said it in the pods, like this guy could be one of the best three guys on a final four team. Like, there's no question. I didn't think he could be what he became. You're talking about, like, for an entire generation of Knicks fans, well, multiple generations, but if you're talking about like 30 and under Knicks fans, like there, this is like their David Ortiz, basically. If they win the title, he becomes David Ortiz. One of the things about how they put the team together, they were cutthroat a couple of times. The Towns trade was cutthroat like that like Randall was like their guy like they brought him in.

• 1:09:35Bill Simmons?

  They gave him a big extension. They went and signed DiVincenzo. They traded, I think what they trade Toppin to have the DiVincenzo money. Villanova guy, this is our crew now. And then they had a chance to get Towns and they just like slit their throats basically went got Towns. That was cutthroat. And then the, uh, the tips trade, the tips firing.

• 1:09:56Bill Simmons?

  Kind of have to do that sometimes, you know, there's a difference between being desperate and cutthroat. Those were two moves that were probably the right moves.

• 1:10:04Bill Simmons?

  But it's still like, I don't know if all teams make those moves, Zach.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:10:09Bill Simmons?

  It's like what we were talking earlier where if OKC is like, check can't defend Wemby. We're trading him and it's just like, we're cutting his throat. Some teams won't do it.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  No, the Towns one was, uh, was a risk and it's one that has, has gone up and down. Uh, over like halfway through the season, it looked like, did Minnesota like kind of win this trade? Cats all over the place and, and like Randall's playing really well and DiVincenzo is essential. And now it's like swung totally the other way, but it was a bet on, it was a ceiling bet. It was a, we need to take some risk of absorbing this contract because it, if it works. Our ceiling goes up a level that Randall and DiVincenzo just can't.

• 1:10:49Bill Simmons?

  They need a center.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Can't take, you needed a center and you need a five who can shoot.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  And yeah, I mean, they've been, and Anadobe was the guy they clearly just targeted and Brunson. I remember I was with you guys. I mean, I remember vividly doing on my old podcasts, like that deal was slammed, like really unpopular contract in a lot of corners. And I remember saying, I don't, I don't love it, but it's like a BB plus like Jalen Brunson's a really good player. And like, it's a lot at that time, but like, it's a BB plus contract. Obviously in retrospect, it was an A plus, plus, plus.

• 1:11:21Speaker 03

  What was it? Was it four for a hundred? What was it?

• 1:11:23Bill Simmons?

  A little more than that. Six.

• 1:11:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. One oh six.

• 1:11:26Bill Simmons?

  I was on the bullish side for it, but I asked, I was like, yeah, it's, guys, career average is 11 points a game. You know, it's definitely on the higher end.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  I do think we're all overlooking just a huge story here and a huge fly in the ointment.

• 1:11:43Bill Simmons?

  Chalamet?

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  No, even even more dire than the celebrity fandom of the Knicks.

• 1:11:49Bill Simmons?

  The return of Chalamet to to to being being on TV and stuff?

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Which my dad, by the way, hates. He's like, I don't understand. Do they pay for their tickets? Why do all these rich people get free stuff? I don't like it. Even more dire, and Sean, I think you need to be worried. I think you need to be on higher alert.

• 1:12:04Bill Simmons?

  Oh, no.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  I don't know if you know this, but the Cavs have won the shot quality battle through three games in this series.

• 1:12:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they won.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  I think I think you guys are actually on the ropes here. I think if you look at the track, if you look at the tracking data, it's neck and neck, but the Cavs have a slight edge in shot quality. And let me tell you, I I I think the league is going to retroactively go back and look at the shot quality and flip the results of these games. And you might be down 2-1 tomorrow morning. He's like, I wouldn't get too excited about the finals just yet, or the Cavs get rolling 4-4 straight.

• 1:12:34Bill Simmons?

  Deceiving 3-0, Sean. Don't don't get comfy.

• 1:12:37Speaker 03

  I did see that interview with Kenny Atkinson today, which was very amusing. Let's just say it's been passed around amongst Knicks Knicks fans.

• 1:12:46Speaker 03

  Listen, I.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Are you scared, Sean? Are you scared of what the Knicks four games portend because of this?

• 1:12:51Speaker 03

  I don't. What I don't want is to say something stupid and then all of a sudden this series is 3-3 and I'm getting clipped by like Cavs busting genius, you know, on X.com. I I I'm very excited about how well they've played. And you know what? As a as a dork who looks at exit velo and hard hit rate in baseball, like I do. I do like trick myself into thinking that that shit matters. But like, look, the Cavs just haven't been able to hit threes in this series, but also the Knicks play great defense. So both things can be true.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Look, if you played those games 150,000 times, it might be a different result. Unfortunately, Sean, this is the result that actually matters and it's 3-0.

• 1:13:31Speaker 03

  And the the fact is, is that Timothy Chalamet was courtside for two of those games. So maybe he's in Donovan Mitchell's head. Have we considered that? Maybe he's in James Harden's head.

• 1:13:40Bill Simmons?

  Very possible. Here's the other thing. Um, game four is already over because there was a play at the end of game three that made me convinced the Knicks are gonna sweep them. That Jalen Brunson hesitation layup when all five Cavs just decided they weren't gonna move anywhere. That's the kind of thing that happens when you're going home in two days. I don't think you can come back from that.

• 1:14:00Speaker 03

  They kind of quit. In the fourth quarter, they kind of quit.

• 1:14:02Bill Simmons?

  It was a quitting is what was going on.

• 1:14:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:05Bill Simmons?

  And I think the Knicks can smell it and the Knicks, and Sean, this is the prologue of my book, The Secret. The Knicks, part of the problem with them during the season is everybody was having to sacrifice stuff and there were all these different times when people didn't seem that happy about the sacrificing. Those guys are all locked in now. I don't, I don't know how it happened over these last 10 games, but it happened. And that's the great thing about sports when you watch it happen in real time.

• 1:14:29Speaker 03

  I think obviously OG was unstoppable until he got injured, but the secret is what you already talked about, which is that Bridges shooting 75% from the field and being back to that mid-range guy and also being really comfortable as basically the second option offensively.

• 1:14:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:45Speaker 03

  Has just totally transformed the offense for them. The, the early story was Cat being point cat, but that has kind of moved out recently and Bridges just having much more usage in the offense makes them way more dynamic and scary. I mean, they're going to match up totally differently though, with either of the two teams in the West, assuming they go forward. Like it's, it's going to be a different looking offense and it's going to be harder, I think, for Brunson to get some of those baskets that he's been getting in the last two series. But I have to enjoy this. I mean, it's 53 years since the Knicks have won a title. It's 27 years since they've been in the NBA finals. It's 40 years since a team that I root for of the three major sports has won a title. 40 years. Like this is very rare and it's extremely

• 1:15:27Speaker 03

  rare to watch a team that I care about, just motherfucked teams. I mean, it's just amazing how they're just dominating for the last three weeks. And so I'm, I'm such an embittered and cynical sports fan. Like I really just gotta look myself in the mirror and be like, have some gratitude, you asshole, because this is super.

• 1:15:45Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three, Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh.

• 1:16:26Bill Simmons?

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• 1:16:59Speaker 03

  Special.

• 1:17:01Bill Simmons?

  I got this email from Yuval in Israel. I'm gonna read it to you. "I remember the Mavs were 2-2 in the first round against the Brandon Roy Blazers, and people were saying Dirk is choking again." That was before the 2011 Mavs had one of the most beloved championship runs ever. Something clicked. They went on this crazy one, went 10-1 the rest of the way in the West. Almost every Mavs player at the moment, Barea, Chandler, Peja, even DeShawn Stevenson, they beat the villains of the league, the Heat, without home court. The Knicks have a chance to do something similar if they take out OKC. If they actually win it, will this championship be as universally beloved as the 2011 Mavs run?

• 1:17:43Bill Simmons?

  This is an interesting one because it's a New York team, right? Dallas, everybody loved Dirk, including Zach Lowe. Everybody had kind of given up on him having a moment like that. And then he just fucking went Clint Eastwood on the 2011 playoffs and series by series just took people out. And then they took out this Heat team that everybody was annoyed by. Zach, do you see the parallels? If it was OKC, they're in this whole flop thing at this moment they're having the back to back. And then this Knicks team that comes out of nowhere. Do you think it would be as beloved as that Mavs title?

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting you ask that because I saw Ethan Strauss write this column this week about like, basically, why is this not a bigger story that this team in the biggest city and the biggest market is doing this? And I'm like, maybe I just live in the wrong place because it's like the defining story of my life.

• 1:18:35Bill Simmons?

  I feel like it's a massive story.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  24 hours a day. So I think it could be, I mean, they're like, the Knicks don't have a Dirk who's like been just beaten down and been close to the mountaintop and shoved off and is like entering the back nine of his career. And this might be his last chance. And that was also a collection of vets.

• 1:18:55Bill Simmons?

  But Brunson is as like the small guy underdog and small guys aren't supposed to win titles. Kind of fills a weird part of that voice.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  I'm giving you the counters before I hammer. And the other counter is like, there are just some, some people who don't like New York City and don't like New York. And it's too big and all the famous people. I think it would be, if not as universally beloved, almost so. And like such a rapturous moment around the league because it is New York, because it is the Knicks. And it may depend a little bit on who they play in the finals because the Thunder have a whiff of a different kind of villainousness to them, at least in the way they're perceived around the league. Not the same as that Miami team, but like there are just some parts of the country, parts, fans in parts of the country hate, hate New York and be like, oh, boy, the big bad Knicks.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  And we have to listen to everyone talk about New York and the Yankees will probably win the World Series and we'll do it all again.

• 1:19:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, that would be terrible.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  But I, but I think, I think the Knicks are their own unique thing in New York City because of the sport. It's the city's game. They're the city's team and it's been so goddamn long that I think it would be as rapturous as the Mavs one.

• 1:20:04Speaker 03

  I think there's one other component to this too, which is if this had happened last season, it might have felt a little bit different because it would have felt like they were vanquishing teams that they had not beaten before. So obviously that Boston series, sorry Bill, was like euphoric for Knicks fans because we were underdogs in that series for real. And that was a really triumphant series win. And then they got their, their hearts ripped out in game one of the Pacers series. And that series was effectively over. And obviously the Pacers have given the Knicks fits over the years in the playoffs. And so if they had gone to the finals after that run, it would have felt different than this, where they're basically dispatching a bunch of teams that they've already beaten before. You know, the Knicks have three years ago beat the Cavs in the playoffs. The Knicks two years ago beat the Sixers in the playoffs. Both of those teams were seeded lower than

• 1:20:49Speaker 03

  the Knicks are. It doesn't feel like as triumphant and stunning a run to the finals. And so maybe that's part of the reason why it's not getting these incredible national headlines. Also, at the very beginning of this season, I think most pundits felt like the Knicks were the most talented team in the conference and probably should be, at least in the Eastern Conference Finals. In fact, the Knicks owner basically set a mandate for Mike Brown and the team that they had to make the finals, that the expectation was the NBA Finals. So it's not preordained per se, but this has just been talked about for 16 months as a possibility. So it doesn't feel as stunningly special. And also, I think Zach's right that New York teams are just hated. Like, the Knicks are kind of a fumbling franchise over

• 1:21:34Speaker 03

  the last half century, but they're just not beloved. And whatever success they have had, especially in the 90s, was for a kind of like brute force, unlikable style of play. And so I think for older fans, that's also burned into their brains. It's like, this isn't a team that I love watching.

• 1:21:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, true.

• 1:21:51Speaker 03

  This team though, this season, I mean, this playoffs, they've been a lot of fun to watch, I think. Offensively, they're, they're pretty exciting.

• 1:21:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So Dolan, in the 2000s, a 10 out of 10 train wreck. And then the 2010s, a 10 out of 10 train wreck. That's 20 years, one fifth of a century, a complete train wreck as an owner. Right before COVID, All-Star Weekend, Chicago, I think Zach Lowe was there. No, I skipped it. They, he skipped it. I skipped it.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Because I didn't want to get COVID.

• 1:22:23Bill Simmons?

  Somehow I went, I went to Sundance and All-Star Weekend and the Oscars.

• 1:22:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:27Bill Simmons?

  0 for 3 in COVID. Sean, Sean went 1 for 1.

• 1:22:30Speaker 03

  I went to Sundance and, and have never been more sick in my life. So pleased to have been a patient zero.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I got it at the Sloan conference 2 weeks later. So it's not like, it's not like my discipline sustained.

• 1:22:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So they hire Leon and Wes. Basically 3 weeks before COVID. And then post-COVID, they've just turned into a completely different franchise. And Dolan's been a good owner. Like he's, he's let those guys do their thing. Supposedly, he was the one that's like, we have to fire Tibbs. You guys are being too loyal to him. He's not good enough. Get rid of this guy. He's paid for a lot of money. Like, it's been impressive. And you'd think with that, with the sphere, which has been like one of the most successful entertainment things that has, has launched probably this century. Dolan's back, man. You gotta hand it to him. I made a lot of jokes about him. I made a lot of jokes with my column and on the pod, but you gotta hand it to the dude, man. He's done a good job.

• 1:23:25Speaker 03

  What, like, when was he, when did, when was he originally good at some point?

• 1:23:28Bill Simmons?

  Dolan's here.

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  I thought, I really thought for a second that you were gonna draw some connection from COVID to Dolan arriving.

• 1:23:39Bill Simmons?

  It's just a before and after.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  I, I thought there was gonna be some sort of scientific commentary that was gonna frighten me. My screen was just gonna go black. Like, the connection was gonna get lost.

• 1:23:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, as Sean knows, I don't really remember anything from 2020 or 2021. And there's a chance all of us are dead right now and this isn't actually happening with the Knicks. It's possible.

• 1:23:59Speaker 03

  I love the idea of this being your projection in your post-COVID dream state. Yeah, that's really exciting.

• 1:24:05Bill Simmons?

  James Dolan became a good owner. But you gotta hand it to him, man. He's doing a good job. The New York thing's interesting because this is such a beloved team. Like if you just like basketball, I just really respect how they play. I think Brunson is just one of the most admirable guys we have in the league, but it is a New York team and there are a ton of New York fans. And, you know, I don't need to tell you, Sean, when it's going well for New York fans, they have a way of letting everybody know about that. So I'll be interested to see how everybody handles this over the next four weeks.

• 1:24:38Speaker 03

  I'll, I'll just say, this is the first public comments I'm making since this win streak started. I have been trying to keep my mouth shut throughout this.

• 1:24:45Bill Simmons?

  It's great. It's a great way to do it.

• 1:24:47Speaker 03

  I don't want to jinx it and I'm also super grateful. However, like give it, like we deserve this. Come on. 53 years?

• 1:24:55Bill Simmons?

  You deserve it just for the last 20.

• 1:24:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was, the 2000s were fucking tough, man. That was a really hard time because in addition to being inept on the court, they were entrenched in controversy and scandal nonstop. I mean, it was, it was a very ugly time to be a fan of that team. So this just feels different and I said, I said this to you the last year or so, Bill, but they're just normal now. They just win like 52 games every year. They have one or two players who are in the conversation for all NBA. They're just like a legitimately good NBA franchise. The other thing I'll, I'll note is that Leon Rose does not speak to the press.

• 1:25:33Bill Simmons?

  Ever.

• 1:25:34Speaker 03

  Ever. And that is also so strange. And so we don't even really know very much about the architects of this team through this six year period. We just know that they're making the right moves. And I would say six of the eight big moves that they've made since this new administration came in, when they happened, I was like, that's not a good idea. It was like my old, you know, Knicks reflexes kicked in where I was like, trading Randall and DiVincenzo, I don't get that. Oh, I hope OG is a good deal, but like he's really injury prone. We're getting older in that deal. That doesn't make sense. Oh, we missed out on Katie and Kyrie and we backfilled with Julius Randall as a free agent. Oh, four years for Brunson and that this is at the expense of getting Donovan Mitchell.

• 1:26:19Speaker 03

  Like all of those times, because Knicks fans are so beat up, you could have been like, well, we're going to get the Short end of the stick on this one and every single one worked out even bridges, which that trade was was was pilloried as recently as April.

• 1:26:33Bill Simmons?

  How about a month ago?

• 1:26:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, like it was like way too many picks. And now all of a sudden, two playoffs in a row. We're like, nope. He's essential. He might even be the second best player on the team. And that's astonishing. That's like the fact that all those moves that those guys made worked out. And they never once got in front of the public and we're like, well, we did this, so trust us. They don't say anything. It's crazy.

• 1:26:53Bill Simmons?

  Well, one of the reasons you know they're good is besides Brunson, the next best three guys on the team have all had moments when they've seen like they're clearly the second best guy on the team. And that's when you know you have a good team, but they're Zach. I remember doing this in the 2024 finals with Celtics Dallas when

• 1:27:13Bill Simmons?

  was Celtics were favored, but maybe not as much as they should have been favored. Considering the disparity, the disparity with the records and stuff. And at some point it just became math. It's like the Celtics have been this team for eight months. This is kind of who they are. You look at the advanced stats for the playoffs. And the Knicks have their plus 18.5 for 13 playoff games. That's like, like a small sample size. It's three different series. And it includes them being down 2-1 in the first one. But they have the second best defensive rating. They have the best offensive rating and they have the point differential. They have all this mass stuff in their place.

• 1:27:54Bill Simmons?

  We've always learned that's that's should be a bigger factor when you're trying to figure out what's going to happen than we give it credit for. So I assume if they blow out the Cavs tomorrow or even just win, those numbers will still be pretty good. Do you pay attention to that though Zach? Those those postseason advanced metric shit?

• 1:28:11Speaker 03

  Sure. I mean, again, it's a small sample and it's so opponent specific that, you know, it can be a little, you have to be careful. But I mean, when you are, I mean, I don't even care what the numbers are when you're like, I haven't even looked. When you're this dominant and you're winning by this many points every single game. Like I've seen some people who have they played, they played the Hawks who fattened up against all these lottery teams.

• 1:28:32Bill Simmons?

  Pretty good.

• 1:28:32Speaker 03

  But didn't didn't hear a lot about that when it was 2-1 Hawks.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  They played the Sixers who you know they're injury prone and Joel couldn't sustain. By the way, I do have to give you this as a Celtics person. You got the like, the week that the Sixers became the full-fledged Sixers was against you. Similarly, five seasons ago, you got like the week that the hardened Kyrie Durant nets became the full-fledged Durant. That was also against you guys.

• 1:28:59Bill Simmons?

  It's true.

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  Uh, but like, I don't want to hear about any of this because if you beat three playoff teams by this much, this many times, it says something about the group that you're in. And oh, by the way, they were third in offense and seventh in defense in the regular season. And seventh in defense with this roster is quite an accomplishment. Like it was sitting there. They were, they were, now what they've done in the playoffs is a completely different thing, but they're just a really good team.

• 1:29:24Bill Simmons?

  They caught a couple, couple of small breaks, but every team gets breaks every year. Tatum and Halliburton getting hurt. Giannis and B breaking down. But I, and that's happened. That's, that's where Inter was scheduled year after year. The, the one real break I thought they caught was Detroit kind of choking at the trade deadline, not doing anything. Cause Detroit was the one team that felt like they like going toe to toe with the Knicks.

• 1:29:47Speaker 03

  They really had their number during the regular season.

• 1:29:48Bill Simmons?

  And, and you know what? Why didn't they get the extra guy? And if I'm a Detroit fan, I'm going crazy right now that we're not in the Eastern finals.

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  See, I, I get it. 3-0 Detroit in the regular season. I was, I would have picked the Knicks in six maximum.

• 1:30:06Bill Simmons?

  I would have picked the Knicks too.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Without even thinking that hard about it. And I would not have thrown away the regular season stuff, but I just would not have read too much into it. And I think the Knicks were just qualitatively a better team than Detroit. Cause I've seen a lot of.

• 1:30:19Bill Simmons?

  What if Kawhi Leonard was on the Pistons?

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  Well, okay. I mean, I've seen a lot of like, oh, Detroit with.

• 1:30:24Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I don't know that they would have gotten.

• 1:30:25Speaker 01

  Regular season and boy, they blew it against Cleveland. I just like, I didn't like the way they were playing in the playoffs. I like the way the Knicks are playing in the playoffs. I don't read too much into those games.

• 1:30:34Bill Simmons?

  I guess you can't get too comfortable because analytically you're losing two to one.

• 1:30:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's going to be, feel really bad when, when they, when they sweep and they've lost. They've, they've lost three games to one analytically. That's going to really hurt.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  I don't know. I gotta sleep tonight, man. This like, uh.

• 1:30:49Bill Simmons?

  You don't understand the month Sean's had. He, he goes to can for the first time ever. He's there for like a week and a half. As that's happening, the Knicks go on the fucking all time heater. It's like Worm at the Chesterfield, just whipping the Russians for 24 straight hours.

• 1:31:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, but they're not cheating. That's the thing to remember. No mechanic work, no dealing from the bottom of the deck.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  I wish the Mets would cheat, by the way, Sean. As long as you're here, I'm in for anything.

• 1:31:16Speaker 03

  Don't get me started. Don't get me started.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  Get the garbage cans out in the back, whatever you gotta do, cuz I, you know.

• 1:31:21Speaker 03

  I will burn the franchise to the ground. Whatever the Knicks are doing, the Mets need to drink some of that juice, cuz what the fuck, dude? Like, absolute nightmare.

• 1:31:29Bill Simmons?

  I'm not listening to you guys complain about baseball. My owner has just thrown away baseball in Boston.

• 1:31:34Speaker 01

  All right, fair.

• 1:31:35Bill Simmons?

  We traded a possible Cy Young guy this year for a guy who's hitting 161.

• 1:31:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, but he got you like three titles.

• 1:31:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and then he's like, he's four. First of all, four. And then he's like, you guys should be more appreciative. I should be able to do what I want now.

• 1:31:49Speaker 03

  I mean, he's right.

• 1:31:51Bill Simmons?

  None of us feel that way. Just sell the team. Thank you for the titles.

• 1:31:54Speaker 03

  The Mets are way more embarrassing. First of all, they haven't won in 40 years. Second of all, they spend $400 million on their payroll and they have the worst offense in the sport. I wanna jump off a building thinking about them. It's insane. Thank God for the Knicks. Thank God.

• 1:32:08Bill Simmons?

  Like, if you spent money like that in basketball, your team would be good. You would just, that would just mean you have really good players. In baseball, you can spend money on Bichette and then he could just immediately turn into the worst shortstop in the National League.

• 1:32:20Speaker 03

  He makes $42 million a year.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  I'm so sorry. I did the, I'm sorry.

• 1:32:24Speaker 03

  He's hitting 205.

• 1:32:25Bill Simmons?

  Why did you bring this up, Zach?

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  It's my fault. You know why I brought it up? You know why I brought it up? Because I spent part of the day with my daughter, who's now a big Mets fan. We went shopping together and she said, "The Mets playing this afternoon. Let's check the score." And it was the seventh inning. This is, we're at the freaking mall. We're at the Stanford Mall on a Sunday. This is my life.

• 1:32:45Bill Simmons?

  Stanford Mall. They used to be my heyday place.

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  Checking the Mets score, seventh inning, and I said to her, "You'll never guess how many runs the Mets have in the seventh inning. It's 0-0." And we drove home. We drove home, listened to the game on the radio, bottom of the ninth, Marlins are up. We pull into the driveway, guys are on base. We turn on the TV and Airbender gives up a fucking walk-off grand slam right in our face. That's why, that's why I've brought it up, cuz I had a day with it.

• 1:33:14Speaker 03

  I want to hear a little bit more about Bill's heyday place, the Stamford Mall. What went down there?

• 1:33:19Bill Simmons?

  Here was the highlight. First of all, Stamford Mall was unbelievable. But one summer, Woody Allen was filming Scenes From a Mall there.

• 1:33:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:28Bill Simmons?

  With Bette Midler and they were just there.

• 1:33:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, directed by Paul Mazurski.

• 1:33:32Bill Simmons?

  Sometimes they're on the top floor and it was just such a big deal for the mall.

• 1:33:37Speaker 03

  Did you approach Woody and say, I love your work. Thanks for everything?

• 1:33:39Bill Simmons?

  I didn't approach Woody. They had a great A and W. They had a good music.

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  The curly fries at the A and W.

• 1:33:45Speaker 03

  A and W.

• 1:33:47Speaker 01

  You could do, you could do a Sam Goody and A and W are right next to each other on the seventh floor. You could get some CDs and go get some curly fries.

• 1:33:54Bill Simmons?

  We had a Walden Books. It was just good times. Yeah.

• 1:33:57Speaker 03

  You guys are getting into trouble. Couple of scams hanging on Stamford Mall.

• 1:34:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, let's have two root beer floats.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  One of my great cinematic memories, Sean Fennessey of The Big Picture, is waiting in line for two and a half hours for the opening night of 1989's Batman at the Stamford Mall. That's how big, that is how big that movie was. A bunch of 11 to 12 year old guys were like, we're camping out basically to get into this movie.

• 1:34:22Speaker 03

  That's beautiful.

• 1:34:23Bill Simmons?

  I saw a lot of great ones. I don't even know if they have a movie theater there anymore. Is the mall still nice?

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  It, it still looks the same. A lot of the stores are closed. A lot of them have become arcades, basically. And one of the anchor stores, I don't know where, it might be Saks, has become the, allegedly the nation's largest pickleball facility.

• 1:34:46Bill Simmons?

  My God, that's the worst thing I've ever heard.

• 1:34:50Bill Simmons?

  That's like this guy who bought the Trailblazers is like the biggest investor in pickleball.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Can I tell you a pickleball story?

• 1:34:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  Game two Knicks, a team official who should not be named says hi to me. Introduces me to a guy who knows Joe House. So, hey, I know Joe House.

• 1:35:07Bill Simmons?

  Always a good starter.

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  I think his name is Sam Porter. And he is the owner or founder or something of the biggest professional pickleball league. And he looked me straight in the eye and he said, I really, I really like what you guys do on the NBA podcasts. You know, you and Bill have great chemistry. He said, I can't listen as much anymore. And I said, why? He's like, I can't take Bill's slander on pickleball. It's just too much. I can't do it. So you've lost, you've lost the listener because of your anti-pickleball takes.

• 1:35:36Bill Simmons?

  I'll be on the right side of history.

• 1:35:39Bill Simmons?

  If we lose a couple listeners around the way, it's fine. Pickleball sucks. What was the best movie you saw at Cancha?

• 1:35:48Speaker 03

  Well, Club Kid stars Jordan Firstman, who is Rachel Senet's friend from the TV show, I Love LA. It's his directorial debut. He plays a guy who's a club promoter in New York City who wakes up one day and he's in his 30s and he has no money and no insurance and nothing to show for it. And 10 year old kid shows up on his front door and is like, you're my dad. And he's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Cause Jordan Firstman's character is gay in the film. And it was funny and heartwarming and like old fashioned and beautiful. And I was like, this is like a Barry Levinson movie or like, it was kind of like Big Daddy, the Adam Sandler movie. And honestly, stole my heart. I had a great time watching it. Didn't expect it. It was great.

• 1:36:27Bill Simmons?

  So it's like gay Kramer versus Kramer crossed with Big Daddy?

• 1:36:30Speaker 03

  Exactly. That's exactly what it is.

• 1:36:32Bill Simmons?

  Good idea.

• 1:36:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's funny and sweet and, and excellent.

• 1:36:37Bill Simmons?

  Zach did Sean's projections newsletter about movies that he launched a couple of weeks ago. Get your, uh, get your juices watered to maybe start your own version of an NBA type thing.

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  I'm a subscriber. It's a, it's, it's been an idea I've been kicking around. I'm a little scared. I forgot how to do it.

• 1:36:54Speaker 03

  I will say I was doing a chat on, on the, on the Substack and literally someone asked me, I, I signed up for, for your thing. I'm really glad you're here, but I really need you to get both Zach and Bill writing again. It's really important to me. And I said, I'm doing my best. So Bill can't just pass the buck to Zach. It goes to you too.

• 1:37:14Bill Simmons?

  I sent like a 180 word text today. That's got me going. Just.

• 1:37:21Speaker 03

  What was it about?

• 1:37:22Bill Simmons?

  Hammering the two fingers, getting going.

• 1:37:25Speaker 03

  What was, what was it about?

• 1:37:26Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Something, it was about graduation plans.

• 1:37:30Speaker 03

  Oh, okay. Well, that's not exactly like writing about the NBA, but it's a start.

• 1:37:34Bill Simmons?

  My, I mean, my daughter's been home for the last two weeks and you guys have younger daughters than my daughter. And she's 21 now and we go out and she can't wait to get carded and order a drink and just let you know what's coming for you guys down the road.

• 1:37:49Speaker 03

  Feel very far away from that.

• 1:37:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah, they get, they just, the happiness in their eyes as they're handing their real driver's license to a bartender or waiter. Kind of like the look in your eyes right now, Sean, about the Knicks.

• 1:38:02Speaker 03

  My version of getting carded with my daughter is when she's like, Dad, take out your credit cards. You can buy me this.

• 1:38:08Bill Simmons?

  There it is.

• 1:38:08Speaker 03

  Which is something I'm becoming more and more familiar with.

• 1:38:11Bill Simmons?

  All right. You can listen to Sean on the big picture. You can listen to Zach on the Zach Lowe Show, which will be going, you'll potentially be a game five, right? If, if Cleveland somehow comes back and wins one.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  Honestly, I just forgot that there could be a game five, to be honest with you. But yes, I would be there if it exists.

• 1:38:26Bill Simmons?

  I honestly think it's a wrap and I think there's going to be 30 to 40% Knicks fans there tomorrow would be my other prediction.

• 1:38:33Speaker 03

  Can't believe this is happening. This is unbelievable.

• 1:38:36Bill Simmons?

  Heard there can't get courtsides if you're a Knicks fan, like it'll, it'll get on the ticket sites. It'll just reject you if you're not from Cleveland.

• 1:38:45Speaker 03

  What is that like? They'll forcibly remove you from the arena?

• 1:38:48Bill Simmons?

  They'll just reset your order.

• 1:38:50Speaker 01

  But they make room for celebrities like Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey.

• 1:38:54Bill Simmons?

  We're, well, we're going to have some celebs at the game tomorrow, but I don't think they'll be courtside. Sean, good luck. Congratulations. I'm glad things have turned around for you.

• 1:39:02Speaker 03

  Thanks for inviting me on.

• 1:39:03Bill Simmons?

  Became at the expense of my team. That's fine. We've been friends for a long time.

• 1:39:06Speaker 03

  Well, I deserve at least one goddamn thing in this life. So thank you.

• 1:39:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. After the six Tom Brady Super Bowl, you deserve something.

• 1:39:13Speaker 03

  All right. Settle down.

• 1:39:14Bill Simmons?

  Tom Brady's, that's another thing that's happening for you. Tom Brady's getting super weird. This is like almost like another win for you.

• 1:39:20Speaker 03

  With respect, he's been an absolute weirdo for 20 years.

• 1:39:25Bill Simmons?

  Zach Lowe, thanks as always. Good to see you. I will see you next Sunday. Thanks to Gahow and Eduardo and Jack Wilson and Chris as well. That's it for us on Netflix. I'll be back on Tuesday. Don't forget tomorrow, Animal House on the Rewatchables. Thanks, everybody.

• 1:39:42Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MYRESSET. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 8778HOPENY, or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.

• 1:40:21Speaker 04

  The Mosquito Bowl is the incredible true story of four college football stars who walked away from NFL careers after Pearl Harbor to enlist in the Marines. From Friday Night Lights director Peter Berg and starring Nicholas Galatine, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis comes a story of brotherhood and sacrifice. Four men who traded the gridiron for the battlefield. The Mosquito Bowl in theaters October 30.

• 1:40:50Speaker 05

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