KHC 140 - Conner Mantz

Conner Mantz - an American long-distance runner, who specializes in the marathon. Conner ran collegiately for Brigham Young University and won the 2020 and 2021 NCAA Division I Cross Country Championships. He was also the winner of the 2024 U. S. Olympic Marathon Trials. Join us for a conversation about how Conner got into running, his training, the Olympic Trials and more! Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Conner: https://www.instagram.com/connermantz/ Thank you to our sponsors: Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off LMNT: Visit https://drinklmnt.com/cam for a free sample pack with any purchase MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Conner’s Backstory with Running 00:05:04 Embracing for Hard Times 00:10:29 Tickets to Conner’s Race 00:12:44 The Benefit of a Sports Psychologist 00:15:44 The Olympic Trials & Running Weather 00:18:08 Conner’s Favorite Event 00:19:01 Gratitude During Running 00:20:48 Trail Running, Sponsorships, & Prize Money 00:23:12 What Stood Out About Western States to Conner 00:25:06 Altitude & Climbing as a Stimulus for Running 00:26:11 Training & Thinking Less to do More 00:35:15 Ad Break (Grizzly Coolers & Black Rifle Coffee) 00:37:59 Western States: Adam Peterman 00:40:12 Failure in Running 00:42:31 American Record in the Half-Marathon 00:47:15 Conner’s Motivation as a Kid to Run 00:51:18 Truett’s Running Success Over the Years 00:53:11 Conner’s First Marathon & Coach Ed Eyestone 00:57:21 Testing Blood Lactate Level, Training, & Recovery 01:02:50 Conner’s Mission in Ghana - Only Training for 30 Minutes 01:05:25 Lessons from Ghana & Training Less01:13:17 Having a Plan for Podcasts 01:14:50 QA: Challenges in Switching from College Running to Professional Running? 01:19:08 QA: Do You Have a Routine or Ritual Before Big Races? 01:22:40 Lessons from Losing Races 01:26:22 QA: How Do You Balance the Comradery of Running While Running to Win? 01:31:44 Outro Badass Raptor Giveaway: https://cameronhanes.com/pages/hennesseyraptor⁠

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Cameron Hanes?

  This is the Keep Hammering Collective with Connor Mantz. How you doing?

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Good. How are you?

• 0:19Cameron Hanes?

  I'm good. I'm good. It's always a huge honor for me to have an Olympian sitting here in the studio. And just watched you today at a big track meet, Prefontaine Classic.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  It was a tough one today, but it was a fun one to be at. You gotta run with a lot of Olympians when you're at these things.

• 0:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Enjoyable for me.

• 0:39Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I mean, you're in the 27s today, right? 27 minutes?

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:44Cameron Hanes?

  27, what was it?

• 0:45Speaker 01

  27.35.

• 0:46Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. And to me, that seems like crazy fast. What was your goal, 26s?

• 0:53Speaker 01

  My goal was to get under 27 minutes. So yeah, 26, anything. If it was 26.59, if it was 26.40, you know,

• 1:00Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  I was gonna be the same amount of happy, but yeah, some days you have it. And my coach afterward was just like, you know, some days you need something to kick you in the pants and humble you a little bit.

• 1:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  And that's kind of what today was.

• 1:13Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Well, I know. Those aren't fun lessons to learn sometimes, but like he said, necessary.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20Cameron Hanes?

  Is that, who's your coach?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Ed Istone.

• 1:24Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, yeah, yeah. I looked up your, I looked up some Wikipedia stats on you.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 1:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so I could do a little homework while we were at the track meet. But the thing that stood out to me is, Truitt's got a lot of attention, my son, for he ran a half marathon, or no, a full marathon when he was 13. But then I showed him your half marathon time when you were 14. You were so fast, dude. 111, half marathon?

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. At least it might have been 111 when I was 15.

• 1:54Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, was it?

• 1:54Speaker 01

  I think it was 113 at 14. Well, I could be wrong about my own stats. I don't even know anymore.

• 1:59Cameron Hanes?

  Well, it's fast. And it had me thinking, so when did you know you're good at running?

• 2:05Speaker 01

  That's a complicated question, because it's like, you know, in fifth grade, you're like, one of the fastest ones in your elementary school class. You're like, all right, I'm gonna make the Olympics one day.

• 2:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  And then you're running against other kids at the middle school when they kind of start funneling in. And then you're like, oh, I'm not the best here, but I'm going to be. And then.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  It was just this gradual process of, oh, I'm pretty good.

• 2:28Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  But then I would find somebody who's better and then I would try and beat them and then, I don't know, I feel like that's the, that's the really, that's a pretty common thing is you just learn that there's somebody out there who's just better, working harder, or just more talented. And so you gotta take back what, learn something new and then improve.

• 2:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a, yeah, so you start, yeah, up in competition and it just gets harder and harder, but have you always loved running?

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I, I love the, the purity of the sport because it's one where, um, I don't know, it's not like a skill, it's not, well, it is a skill, but it's, I don't know, sometimes it is like just work harder, just, just push a little bit more. It's like you wanna run faster today, you can do it, you don't have to, I don't know, position your foot a certain way and you know, do other stuff like soccer or other sports.

• 3:20Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah, we were talking about that too, we're, cause we're thinking, like kinda what we're, we're not like at your level, but any success we have is like in suffering, like how, how bad can you suffer where, if you look at like the hundred meter runners, we're thinking, man, are they ever suffering? It's, it's over, right? And it's like, we're thinking, that feels more like just straight talent. Yes, you can work and you have to work hard, but it's more talent, uh, like heavy than suffer heavy.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 3:53Cameron Hanes?

  Would you think that?

• 3:54Speaker 01

  I do a little bit. I, I feel like, um, I feel like with sprinters, you just, there isn't as much, uh, of, there's a lot of disconnect, but think with like endurance runners and sprinters, I think, um, we actually as endurance runners, I feel like we relate more to like the throwers,

• 4:12Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Like the power people because they're at the track, you know, probably longer than anybody else doing, practicing form and practicing something for so long.

• 4:21Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  And, uh, makes it almost more relatable to those guys than the sprinters who are doing just what I'm doing, just way faster and shorter.

• 4:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, and, and the throwers too, they gotta lift, so they're probably lifting all the time.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:36Cameron Hanes?

  Um, when you're getting in miles, they're lifting, but yeah, it just seems, so it's, then it's a matter of, I, I mentioned this girl who I follow, Tara Dower, and she has a, a tattoo on her leg that says, suffer well. And it feels like that's. Endurance, it's like, how well can you suffer? Cause some people, they start to suffer, they're done.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 4:59Cameron Hanes?

  But if you can suffer well.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think you kind of got to embrace the pain a little bit. I had a, I worked with a sports psychologist in college and I found out before every NCAA championship, I would just feel, well, not even before, I just found in the NCAA championships, I would just feel way worse. And he's like, well, I had a really good season one year and I was like, what, what am, what am I supposed to do? Like, every race leading up to this point feels really easy and I win. And then I come to the NCAA championships and it feels 10 times harder. And he was like, well, just expect it to be really hard. Like, do you expect NCAA's to be easy like these other races? And I was like, yeah, of course, because these other ones feel great.

• 5:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  And then he's like, no, you gotta, you gotta expect it. You expect practice to be hard every day. You expect,

• 5:53Speaker 01

  you expect it's going to take a lot of work. So you gotta go into these races and expect they're going to be really difficult too.

• 5:59Cameron Hanes?

  And is that what you do now?

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I have to tell myself, you know, no matter what has happened in the past where I've felt really good at certain points, there's going to be a point in this race where it's going to get really tough and I just gotta embrace it. And just work on little things, whether it's just cues, whether it's just like working on being grateful and the gratitude I have toward my family and my coaches, my training partners, or something completely irrelevant that has nothing to do with running, but I just have to set out a plan beforehand.

• 6:34Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. And I mean, did you, did you think about that stuff today?

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Today, yeah, yeah. So today, I got, I got like a side ache. I've never had a side ache in a race before. It was kind of an odd experience for me. And I get to, I got about, you know, ten Ks, twenty five laps on a track.

• 6:54Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  I got to about ten laps. I'm on pace for what I want to run, but then I get this really bad side stitch.

• 6:59Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  And I'm like, oh, I, I'm not running well. Like I'm in last place. I'm pretty far back from even second to last. Well, I might've been right with second to last, but we're pretty far back from anybody up front. And um, I'm on pace to still run under twenty seven minutes, but I start running really slow. I start running. Um, I needed to run sixty four point eight seconds per lap and I was running like seventy seconds per lap for a couple laps.

• 7:23Cameron Hanes?

  Whoa.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  And that's just so far off.

• 7:26Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  And it's actually closer to my marathon pace than my half marathon pace or ten K pace. It was just, just completely different.

• 7:33Cameron Hanes?

  Not great, yeah.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  But then I just heard the crowd and it helps being the only American in the race and the only, um, yeah, the only one a lot of people are familiar with who don't follow this, who are like casual fans of the sport. And so I was just hearing my name, just come on Connor, like you can catch him, you can catch him. And uh, it, it helped me. So I, um, I decided, okay, I'm just gonna, you know, I'm gonna get a few more laps in. Cause I was thinking about just dropping out and just, you know, hanging my hat on this and going on to the next thing. But hearing people just cheer me on, I'm like, they came to watch me race.

• 8:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Whether they did or didn't, I'm telling myself they did.

• 8:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  And uh, I was like, I gotta make it a few laps and eventually that side stitch subsided.

• 8:17Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  And um, I, I pushed a little bit more, was able to pass a few people and still run a decent time.

• 8:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, I thought you picked it up towards

• 8:27Speaker 01

  I, I did.

• 8:28Cameron Hanes?

  Last mile.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, my, my last mile was probably, it was probably close to on pace for what I wanted needed to do, but.

• 8:34Cameron Hanes?

  Looked good then.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks. Yeah. It was, it was a lot of fun that last mile, but um, yeah, I was just hearing those, those cheers. I was like, okay. I can't give up now and so once the side stitch subsided, I was able to speed up a little bit. And I didn't speed up as much as I wanted to, but part of that was like, I can see my goal was so far out of sight. So it was like, all right, how much, how much today do I want to suffer? And I wasn't, wasn't willing to suffer as much as I probably should have been.

• 9:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's so hard.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  It, it is.

• 9:08Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like, when, then when you look back, like now, you're probably thinking, I could have suffered more.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 9:16Cameron Hanes?

  But how, but why in that moment do we question ourself or we consider dropping or is, is the mental part of it? Cause your body can do it.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:27Cameron Hanes?

  Your body's done it.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:29Cameron Hanes?

  It's convincing your body to do it.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 9:33Cameron Hanes?

  But uh.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  It's like, how, how hard do you want to hurt today? And, and I think today, it was just hard to see that I was so far off my goal.

• 9:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  That the discouragement, I mean, it's that, it's that mental strength you need. And it's easy to have it when uh, things are going right for you.

• 9:50Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  It's like you're, if you're hitting, um, you know, in running, if you're hitting perfect splits and you're on pace to do something amazing and

• 9:59Speaker 01

  things are clicking off, you can push. If you're at the front of the race, you can push, but it's the people that really inspire me are the people in the back that are able to kick it in a little bit more at the end. And if, especially when there's no one around them, they have no one to catch, but they're just pushing to the line. And I'm like, that's, that's a different level of, of uh, I don't know, either, either they didn't suffer enough in the beginning, or that's, that's a different level of being willing to suffer when there's nothing, nothing coming your way.

• 10:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I, well, we got there. So just to, to kind of validate your point, I heard a lot of people yelling, let's go Connor, you know, and you can do it. But we were like hustling to get over there. And so this is just fun of story. I'll also got to shout out Ben Blankenship, but we get over there and I, I had bought tickets and the tickets were expensive today, like for this meet, cause it's a one day meet. A bunch of elites, you know, a bunch of great events and day after 4th of July. And so I'm like, God dang these tickets, but we wanna, I love what going to the track meet. So I bought like three tickets or like 750 bucks or something like that for me, Tru and Alicia.

• 11:10Cameron Hanes?

  We get over there, I bought them through StubHub, get over there, tickets, no, no tickets, they're gone. They're unavailable. I'm like, what? So they do want a refund, but we're standing in front of Hayward. Do I want a refund? Your race is getting ready to start. So I go to the ticket counter and I'm watching you guys up on the screen there. We're outside and she says, oh yeah, we're, we go through Ticketmaster and you know, these resell whatever. I guess your ticket. So she looked it up and it's like they'd been resold a million times, these tickets. Anyway, we had no tickets. So I'm like, well, I guess we'll be like all the scrubs and be watching on TV today. And so like, but I'm like, oh Ben, I just saw Ben yesterday at the, at the Butch Butch 10K.

• 11:55Cameron Hanes?

  So I called him and I said, hey, I said, dude, listen, I had three tickets. Apparently they're gone. I don't know. I said, I hate to ask, but do you know where I can get any tickets? And he's like, I'll call you back in two minutes. So actually the president of Tracktown USA brought us tickets.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Oh, no way.

• 12:13Cameron Hanes?

  And we got in there to watch, cause we wanted to watch you, you started 1110. And uh, got in there and was able to see you race, but the point is, is like, yeah, people do come to watch you, you know? And, and I know, I know when I've been in position, I'm feeling, you know, I'm not having a good time or whatever. Then I have to, I think about, am I letting people down that believe in me? And so that's, that is a big part of it.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's a super powerful way to dig deep.

• 12:41Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm. Yeah. Um, do you still use a sports psychologist now or?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  I, I, I do, but I didn't, I haven't since the Boston Marathon. I probably should.

• 12:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Should be continuing to use him. Um, it was nice when I was at BYU, you know, the, the school's paying for it.

• 12:58Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  But because it's a sports psychology, you know, they don't do a, can't get your insurance to pay for it.

• 13:04Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, right. Yeah. Well.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  But I I know it's good for me. I know I'll get like, you know, kickbacks in the end because when you run fast, you make more money.

• 13:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  And it and it's worth it. It's just an investment.

• 13:16Cameron Hanes?

  It's an investment. It's, yeah, I was curious. I've I've had, you know, a lot of other athletes on and I've never, I've keep asking how. I keep thinking, once it's over, I'm like, God, why don't I ever ask what mental exercises these guys are doing from fighters to runners to whatever. But yeah, I was super curious about how useful that is. Because as we're talking about with that suffering and that, um, just getting through tough times, there's got to be tricks to do it.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. And and for me, I've used like a lot of different, different things in different races. Um, like for the Olympic Trials Marathon, um, I'd had some really, I'd had some nasty injuries heading into that race. Maybe not nasty injuries, one nasty injury and it just kind of was a huge setback and I was really frustrated. I was like, man, this like, of course, you know, 10 weeks or 12 weeks before the, before the Olympic Trials, I'm like, I'm injured, like, it was like any other time I'd be fine to be injured, but not this time.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  But then I was working with a sports psychologist and I was, um, I was able to be healthy by race day. I just knew I wasn't 100%. Um, I was training, like I was swimming a lot. I was biking a lot. And then the sports psychologists were heading into race, um, like race week and he's like, all right, I want you to focus on gratitude toward this race. And he's like, you got to write down, he's like, write down 26 names heading into the race. And then every mile, just think of one person when it gets hard and, um, I didn't, I didn't go through and do that with every mile. But there were five miles in the race where it got pretty tough. Um, and I was like, all right, this one's for my dad. He got me into running.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  He's just a huge inspiration for me. Next one was for my mom. She just sacrificed a lot. Um, she's a stay at home mom that really just focused on her kids. And then it was my brother who inspired me, my sister, my other brother. Um, and then I just kind of kept going and then throughout the race, I'd see some friends who'd flown out to watch me and I was like, all right, this mile is for those guys.

• 15:24Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Um, and then the last mile, I was like, I kept telling myself, last mile would be for my wife.

• 15:29Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  And during the last mile, I was just in so much pain. I wasn't even thinking about anything. But I did get to see her right at the finish line. So I was like, okay, this, the last mile was still for her, but.

• 15:39Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Not, not as intentional.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Not, not as intentional.

• 15:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And you, you won that, right?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  I did.

• 15:46Cameron Hanes?

  The Olympic trials. Yeah. You, where was that race?

• 15:49Speaker 01

  It was in Orlando, Florida.

• 15:50Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Was it warm that day?

• 15:52Speaker 01

  It, it was pretty toasty.

• 15:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  There, there was a little bit of controversy because they, they announced it in Orlando and then uh, they were like, we're going to put it at noon in Orlando. And we're like, wait, we're supposed to run fast and prep for Paris. Like,

• 16:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  They're not going to run us at noon in Paris while we're running at noon here. And then they were like, oh, we'll compromise and make it 10 a.m. And it's like, well, that's not much better, but it's better. We'll take it.

• 16:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know why they still wanted 10 a.m. I've, I've heard so many different people be like, well, it was because of TV. And then they're like, no. They could choose any time for TV. And it was like, well, it was sponsorships. And it was like, the sponsorships all said they were fine. And I, I don't know why they didn't do it at 7 a.m.

• 16:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, that makes it tough for sure. Because then it's like, you're wondering how, you know, you'd say, well, heat's affecting everybody, but people, you might've taken out your best runner that maybe doesn't perform well in heat.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:46Cameron Hanes?

  You know what I mean?

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:47Cameron Hanes?

  So it's a, yeah, I know when they, I think Eugene's a good spot for the, the marathon. They had,

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:53Cameron Hanes?

  They had it here one time and it's like early in the morning, like 7 a.m. start or 8 a.m. starts. Usually money.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the weather, I was actually kind of disappointed. They didn't run our 10K at 8 a.m.

• 17:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  I, I went out and did a little jog at about, it's like 5:45 this morning.

• 17:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Just to kind of like get the loot, get the legs all loosened up. And I couldn't believe like, I was like, this weather is perfect running weather. There was no wind. It's like 48, 49 degrees.

• 17:21Cameron Hanes?

  Would've been great.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  And it's quiet as can be. Like this is, this is a nice time to run.

• 17:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, they uh, they changed one time. I can't remember what event. Maybe it's a fifteen hundred, but it could have been for the world championships, but it was super hot and they had it and then they moved it.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:36Cameron Hanes?

  Earlier, right? Was that, was that the world championship?

• 17:39Speaker 01

  It was the, I think it was the Olympic trials in twenty twenty one.

• 17:41Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, yeah.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  It was like, I think it was a hu- it was record breaking. I think it was like one fifteen.

• 17:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, hot as heck.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was in the, the five K that day and they moved it. They moved the five K really early in the morning. I think they moved the fifteen in the evening.

• 17:55Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, that's what it was.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was just, oh, it was so toasty.

• 17:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, I remember. Well, we didn't have that this time. It was almost perfect, but you're right. The morning would have been ideal.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:07Cameron Hanes?

  Um, what's your favorite event? Is it the marathon? Cause you've done a lot of different events now.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I, I'm, I'm never really sure, you know, it's always like the next race and then every race is a challenge and I think that's what excites me. Um, the marathon's as far as like, uh, the US goes, probably my best event. Um, but the half marathon's really fun. Ten K on the road is fun. Honestly, ten K on the track, what I did today, might be my least favorite event and I think every other event I like about the same. But the ten K on the track, it's like twenty five laps. This is ridiculous. Why, why don't we do this on the road or on a cross country course or a trail?

• 18:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I was just curious cause you're, I mean, you're, you've had success at everything, but I was wondering what your favorite was.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just, I like racing. It's the, it's, it's competing.

• 18:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, the competition.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, e- even if it's an event I'm not that good at, I just wanna compete.

• 19:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you know, your story about gratitude and like thinking of family is, this is, I don't know if I've ever mentioned on here, but, um, my dad, he died today in twenty ten, July fifth. Yeah, so I, I mean, it's like, I got that right there, but like we, uh, on the Butte Butte, he lived right over on this, kinda on the course and every year, for both the Butte Butte ten K and the Eugene Marathon, he would go up to stand by Dairy Mart and I would come and the course comes right by and I'd see him there with his dogs and my stepmom and that was like, so I still, running by yesterday, I'm like,

• 19:41Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man. It's still hard.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:44Cameron Hanes?

  You know, cuz I get, I was so used to seeing my dad every time for years cuz I've run, you know, lived, I was born and raised here and it's still hard running by that 15 years later.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:56Cameron Hanes?

  That one spot, just thinking about, you know, that's where my dad always was and it's a, you know, it's like you go through and then what's nuts is I get past that part and then I'm like, really suffering later and you gotta think about something else.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:12Cameron Hanes?

  You know, so it's a, you can get, can get little surges and it's, man, it'd be nice if we could be gracious and be able to push pain to the, to the side and, and just focus on how much we have to be thankful for all the time when it gets hard.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:28Cameron Hanes?

  But it's tough.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  It is.

• 20:30Cameron Hanes?

  It's tough to do that.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's tough to do that in long spurts too. I mean, it's easy to be like, alright, this is for, you know, someone and then you go push for 20 seconds, but to go and push for, you know, miles.

• 20:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  That, that can be pretty tough.

• 20:46Cameron Hanes?

  That's, yeah, that is. Do you, um, do you run trails much?

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Not, not as much as I'd like to.

• 20:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Um, I tried, I'll do like, you know, they're, they're trails, but they're not real trails. You know, they're, they're more like, um, like dirt roads, fire service roads or stuff like that.

• 21:04Cameron Hanes?

  What was that 20K championship you won? Was that a trail?

• 21:07Speaker 01

  That wasn't a trail.

• 21:08Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was, that was on a bunch of streets in New Haven.

• 21:11Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Still pretty fun though.

• 21:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, well, you won.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:16Cameron Hanes?

  If you like to compete and win, there you go.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, I do wanna do, I do think I'll get into trails. I mean, watching Western States, Western States this year was pretty exciting. Um, I don't, I don't think I'll do it while I'm, while I'm like at the top of my career, but.

• 21:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Maybe in 12 years or 13 years when I'm. Kind of past the point of competing in marathons. I'd like to get into it.

• 21:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I bet. I bet you do good. It's a, yeah, because ultra is a little bit behind on the professionalism.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:46Cameron Hanes?

  Part, but man, Western, they do a good job. That live stream gets everybody in. There should be sponsorship money. I wish they, I think the next level is to pay the runners, you know, as far as for winning or, you know, top something.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've heard they, yeah, there's like no prize money for it.

• 22:03Cameron Hanes?

  There's no prize money. Yes. So it's, it's, there's one, you know, it's kind of, it seems like ultra is sort of in a transition from the dirt, dirtbag kind of people just love the mountains.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:16Cameron Hanes?

  Love to run. It's not really about like sponsors and things like that. And then I do like that. Because I think runners have to work so hard, you know, I mean, you got a hundred mile weeks.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:29Cameron Hanes?

  It's tough.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  It is, it is.

• 22:31Cameron Hanes?

  And, and so they should be compensated. If you want the competition to increase, you need to make it where people can make a living running. And there's not a ton of ultra runners that can make a living. The big stars, yes, of course. But, uh, yeah, it's kind of in a weird transition.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Right. And, and it's hard when it's just sponsorships because you know, if you have a breakout race, maybe the sponsors don't come calling because they're like, oh, it was just a one time thing.

• 22:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  But like, if there's good prize money, you have a breakout race and then you're still getting paid. So you can, you know, kind of live off that maybe for a few months and really try and dial in training and then keep it up.

• 23:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I know. It's a, what, what stood out for you about Western? Like what do you?

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I think, well, a few things. One, it's just, it was so hot and they were running like decently fast. And I, I mean, I just saw the pictures and videos and I watched the last. I watched Last Mile with a guy I I run with named Christian Allen. He's a trail runner.

• 23:31Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Um, he's he runs professionally for doing trails with Nike, but he does a lot of like.

• 23:36Cameron Hanes?

  Does he have the big bio level?

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Like the crazy hair, like the the chicken hairs, what my wife calls it. Yes, yes.

• 23:42Cameron Hanes?

  I just watched, uh, last night I watched him, cause he does the Golden Trail series too. Yeah, I watched it an episode and he was featured.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Oh, he's.

• 23:51Cameron Hanes?

  A good guy.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  He's awesome. He, uh, after USA is back in twenty twenty three, the US Championships on the track, I I was pretty disappointed and and I was talking it over with, um, my coach and he's like, look, just take a week. Just do miles, like, we're not gonna do any workouts. I want you to just, um, take a step back and kind of enjoy running again. And I re- I reached out to Christian and I was like, hey, like, I'll, I'll, I want to do a trail run with you. Like, let's just go, um, like, on your easy day, cause I know your hard days are hard.

• 24:23Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  And, uh, I did this trail run with him and I was sore for a week. Like, I wa- I was not sore at all after the US Championship, five and ten K. But we did like three thousand feet of climbing in like two or three miles.

• 24:36Cameron Hanes?

  Ooh.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  And my quads, my hamstrings, like, I I mean, a lot of that was from the way down, but.

• 24:41Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  Um, it it it was beautiful, but like, I could, I don't know, at at the time, I was also trying to sleep in an altitude tent.

• 24:49Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  And I could not get in and out of that tent. It was like we're, me and my wife were in a mattress on the floor in this tent and I'm like struggling to like crawl out of it.

• 24:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  For like five or six days and it was, it was terrible, but it was so much fun.

• 25:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Well, I wonder, so is that a a stimulus that you would add that your body would adapt to that would make you better even on the track?

• 25:13Speaker 01

  I I don't know. I I'm, I think, I don't, I don't, I think it would, um. But I but I would have to take something else out to like start really adding it in.

• 25:24Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  There's definitely some like benefits to it, cause like you're you strengthen your ankle mobility, strengthen your feet. Um, and your quads and hamstrings are gonna get some different stimulus. It's gonna be really good for. Um, I don't know, I was thinking like speed things, but. Um, I don't know if it'll it'll it'll help me in a marathon because. We we do, we work out pretty hard in our group. And so like our Monday, Wednesday, um, Fridays, we go pretty easy. And it's just easy miles on the road, so. Those are the times I would probably be able to go and do trail runs, but when I'm so tired, it's like, I just wanna find the flattest. Easiest place to run and get it over with.

• 26:08Cameron Hanes?

  I understand that, yeah. Um, I don't, do you ever talk about your training? I mean, I know you have you have video, but. Like, do you ever talk about like what's your weekly mileage and?

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I I post it all on Strava.

• 26:21Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, yeah, some people are like Strava dark or whatever. But like, how many miles a week are you getting?

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Um, so I I got up to, for the Boston Marathon, I got up to one twenty nine. Um, for this like ten K, I got up to one twenty six, I think.

• 26:37Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, and that's about the, where you try to get?

• 26:40Speaker 01

  That's about the max, yeah. I think I I'll have to talk it over with my coach. I'd like to get a little higher for, I'm running the Chicago Marathon in a few months. And I'd like to get it a little higher before then, but it's it's hard.

• 26:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Like you, you come home after twenty twenty mile day or more than twenty miles and you're like, I just, I'm not gonna do anything and. And then it's like, oh wait, like there's other responsibilities, like cooking and cleaning and you know, being just a good husband and.

• 27:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Like, okay, I can do those, but.

• 27:10Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Um, it's fun, I just need to.

• 27:14Cameron Hanes?

  Do you ever?

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Figure stuff out.

• 27:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, do you ever think about like?

• 27:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, cuz you do have other responsibilities and they're uh it's important being a human. It's like being a husband, being like what but you're thinking about what about the people is there people who just have just running? And this is like they don't care about anything else, the most selfish type, whatever. And what if they're training all the time?

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I think about that, but then I also think like, is that really a life I want to live?

• 27:43Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Like, am I gonna be happy there?

• 27:45Cameron Hanes?

  And also, would all that training would maybe a relationship help that in some help your performance in some other way? Because you said when it gets tough, you have to think about people you care about and love.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:56Cameron Hanes?

  If somebody was like all wrapped up in themselves, they wouldn't have that.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 28:01Cameron Hanes?

  Driver, you know?

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 28:03Cameron Hanes?

  I I over I mean, runners seems like we overthink or I don't know. I overthink a lot of things.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  I do as well. I I that's actually something. Um, I was reading a sports psychology book. That my sports psychologist had recommended like years ago and I I've been taking like a little I've I've I'm so early in the book.

• 28:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  But one of the things was just like, think less, like the more you use your front of love, the more likely you're going to choke in a competition. Or a it it was actually more focused on my people taking the LSAT, but it was the more you you use, you're like actively thinking on things you're going to. You might mess up.

• 28:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Because you're overthinking it, you're overdoing it. Um, and when you're just, I don't know, when I just run to run and I'm not thinking too hard, then I I seem to do better.

• 28:54Cameron Hanes?

  How do you not think too hard?

• 28:56Speaker 01

  I know it it's.

• 28:57Cameron Hanes?

  That I don't I don't know if I have the ability to control that.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Right, right. Well, and.

• 29:03Cameron Hanes?

  Because if you think, I'm not thinking about that.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:05Cameron Hanes?

  You're obviously thinking about it.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Right. I I think a better way to say it is not not worry.

• 29:11Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Because it, yeah, cuz I guess we're always thinking.

• 29:15Cameron Hanes?

  If it's not productive, maybe.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 29:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Or maybe worrying about like, um, what's gonna happen? Am I am I worried about, um? Like all the what ifs that I can't control, like what if the guy next to me just starts running way faster than I want to go and then I feel this need to go with him. Or what if my shoelace comes untied or what if, you know, I I drop water on my my shoe and I get blisters because there's water sloshing in my uh on my feet, you know?

• 29:44Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  You start wondering about all those, I think that's when you're going to slow down and not do as well.

• 29:49Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I don't know that we love polarizing figures, but you talked about Western states and like one of the runners there was David Roach and I listened to he he ended up dropping, but um I ended up. I listened to his podcast, he's talking about like, you talk about the mental stuff there.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:07Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, he was thinking he was, he thought he was like suffering so bad or hurting so bad, he might die.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 30:15Cameron Hanes?

  And then he's just like, I can't leave my kids without a dad.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 30:19Cameron Hanes?

  And I'm like, that's not going to help your performance.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  No, no, that that's like worry and anxiety to Max like.

• 30:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yes, yeah, so obviously it didn't, he didn't bode well in the race and dropped at Forest Hill, but uh after, you know, being way up there, but yeah, it's like. That's like the extreme example of how not to think during a race, it seems like.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:41Cameron Hanes?

  But it's a, yeah, that was kind of a lot of discussion on that too, because he had made a a big video series about, you know, shocking the world and going out there and winning and all that and. You know, didn't work out, it's.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  But but it's respectable to call your shot.

• 30:57Cameron Hanes?

  It is, it is, it's like, uh, yeah, I think. You know, it was weird because then he's he's complaint complaining about the haters or the criticism. But it's like, it's hard because you, when you call your shot, you make this big thing, you get people to pay attention.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:15Cameron Hanes?

  That's what you wanted, right? You want it, you you asked for this, so you can't complain if it it, but yeah, it's so hard. It's just hard.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 31:27Cameron Hanes?

  Because because even like today, you said you you thought about maybe stepping off the track.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:32Cameron Hanes?

  And it's just like, what the mind and body goes through pushing that hard? I know it's it's really easy to criticize from the sidelines.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  It is.

• 31:42Cameron Hanes?

  But when you're out there doing it.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Right, but but in a way like we always want to be the one that people are looking at like. Um, you want to be the favorite, you want like. Um, and and the favorite, I mean. And and this is, you know, a little bit different aspect, but the favorite is always going to be the one that gets the most criticism. Or will usually be.

• 32:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Um, and so, yeah, it is if that's something you want, like if you're gonna go out and call your shot. You have to be ready to accept all the consequences that come with that and good and bad and.

• 32:15Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know, but we all, we all want to be the best, you know?

• 32:20Cameron Hanes?

  And that's, yeah, I know it is hard because, yeah, just like your video series, did you have a road to somewhere?

• 32:29Speaker 01

  My training partner put one out, it was like a road to Paris.

• 32:32Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, yeah, and yeah, the the point is you're share, of course, you're sharing what you love. It's fun, it's content, probably helps with the sponsors. And we want people to watch it.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:44Cameron Hanes?

  We look at the views, right?

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:46Cameron Hanes?

  Did we do a good job on this? Do people like it? Do they like me? Am I being, you know, whatever? But yeah, then when it doesn't go well, it's rough.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  It is rough. And, um, yeah, my training partner was putting that out and I feel bad he's done it for his last three marathons. And the start of his builds, he just looks terrible and.

• 33:07Cameron Hanes?

  Is that Clayton?

• 33:08Speaker 01

  It's Clayton, yeah. And so we'll be working out together and he'll have his, you know, his film guy Andrew Storres there and.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  And it's like, I'll be having, you know, some of the best workouts of my life and Clayton will be having some of the worst. And you can just tell he's just frustrated by it, but it's also like, dude, this is. You want to be looked at and every time he's raced really well at the marathon, which. I I don't always understand, I'm always like, wait, man, like how was, how was three months ago you couldn't run a five minute pace? Now you're running a four fifty pace for twenty six miles, but. You know, everybody has a different way of getting to it.

• 33:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, he's got, he found something that works, right?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:46Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah, it's, uh, yeah, I remember when Tru was doing his pull up thing. It was getting really hard and I'm like.

• 33:56Cameron Hanes?

  Did you think it's gonna be easy? This is what you wanted.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:59Cameron Hanes?

  This is what you wanted. This is, this is when it matters. And it's like, I think you mentioned earlier too is sometimes, or maybe your psychologist mentioned, but it's gonna hurt. You have to be okay and be ready for, think about that part too. Cause I think we always, we kinda, even when I think about like that big long race I just did, I'm not thinking about when I was miserable. I'm thinking about the good things, the finish, the cool photos, the video and you know, all the whatever, I don't, I'm not thinking about when I didn't feel like I could take a step.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:33Cameron Hanes?

  So we kinda, we kinda forget that stuff. And then when the race happens, we're like, what? Oh, I forgot about this part.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:42Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  That, that was kinda how I felt today. It was like, all, all like I, I've only had good races this year so far.

• 34:49Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Um, and so today it was like, oh, this race isn't going too hot. Wait a sec, I've, I forgot what to do when this happens. It's been, it's been close to a year since I've had like a race that I would consider a bad race. So, or just over a year. So it was like, oh man, like I gotta go through these mental gymnastics to get to the finish now. And I'm, I'm happy I did because you know, when, once you drop out in a race, it can be really hard, the next one.

• 35:15Cameron Hanes?

  Uh, we skipped over, how did Christian do?

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Uh, he didn't do Western States.

• 35:19Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  I, I just watched it with him.

• 35:21Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I see. Okay, okay. Yeah, I did, I didn't remember seeing his name. Um, but yeah, when you mentioned that, I was like, God, did I? Yeah, anyway. Okay, so you guys were watching it?

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were watching it together.

• 35:31Cameron Hanes?

  And he's got a running store, right?

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:32Cameron Hanes?

  Does, he owns one or something?

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like his in-laws started it and I think he like is slowly buying it from them.

• 35:39Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, okay, that's cool. What town's that in?

• 35:41Speaker 01

  It's in Orem, Utah.

• 35:43Cameron Hanes?

  What's it called?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Runner's Corner.

• 35:45Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, sweet. Yeah, um, I, yeah, I love runners. But uh, yeah, so I was thinking about that too. Cause as we mentioned, there's some high profile drops at Western States, but one that stood out that didn't was, um, God, he want, he, he won it. Um, Adam Peterman.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and he basically ended up walking it in 23 hours.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  I didn't realize he was that far back.

• 36:11Cameron Hanes?

  23 something, dude. And he was, I think he was sorta competing at, at the beginning, a past champion.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:18Cameron Hanes?

  Right? So he's proven himself, so.

• 36:22Cameron Hanes?

  If anybody was gonna drop, it seemed like could be him, he's just having a bad day. He's like, hey, he's won this thing before. And he ended up, his, I think his fiance, or girlfriend, or wife, I can't remember which one, she beat him.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 36:34Cameron Hanes?

  She was in the race. And he still finished.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 36:39Cameron Hanes?

  To me, that is like, that's incredible because think of the lessons he learned that, that day.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:46Cameron Hanes?

  Just like what you learned today about, hey, some days it's gonna be terrible, but I'm, I'm gonna finish this off. And I think about that and it's like, it's hard not to respect that effort.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:59Cameron Hanes?

  It's easy to be, when things are going good, it's easy to be like, hey, look at me.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 37:04Cameron Hanes?

  Aren't I awesome? But what happens when they're not going good?

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Right. And those are the days you have to be the most proud of.

• 37:10Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah, just showing your heart.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:13Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, that's, that's what it is. It's like, yeah, so I, I liked, I liked that story for sure. Um, but yeah.

• 37:23Cameron Hanes?

  It's hard to, I don't know, man, those races are tough.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Those races are tough. You know, it, it is, um, it, it would be really tough. Like, I, I can ima, I know what it feels like when a marathon goes south, but those trail races, like ultra trail races, I can't even imagine.

• 37:40Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. I mean, you're, everything, like, if you have a failure on a track in front of the stadium.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 37:48Cameron Hanes?

  It's different. I mean, we're out there by ourselves, like walking.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 37:53Cameron Hanes?

  And yeah, we feel sorry for ourselves and it really sucks, but I don't know, being on a track, it's just so like, it's, you know where to hide.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you kind of feel naked in a way when you're running, running bad.

• 38:05Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, I always, yeah, cause I watched, there's some other, you know, events today where people were way back.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:13Cameron Hanes?

  And I was like, man, that would be tough.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was, um, I don't want to really give his name too much of a shout out because I don't want to be like, oh, look at this guy, but he did terrible. But there was one of the guys in the International Mile who I'm, you know, a big fan of and a friend with. And it just was like, I, I don't know if he fell or something at the start, but he was, he, he's probably the most consistent miler in the U S and he was nowhere. Um, maybe most consistent, that's not Jared Nagus or Cole Hocker, but um, he always seems to like have a really good race and like today it was like, he was just off the back with a lap in and it was just really tough to see, but he finished it. He didn't, he didn't step off. He didn't just say, you know what, I'm done with this.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  And that was cool. And he, he went to the University of Oregon as well.

• 39:01Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  So those who know the sport will know who he is, but yeah, it was, it was cool to see him, you know, gut it out and finish.

• 39:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I always, I had Shelby Houlihan on here too. And it's like, this was a tough event, last event of the day, the 1500. You got Faith out there who Faith is on another level right now. And Shelby was way back, but still ran 402, which isn't a terrible time.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  No, that's, that's, it's crazy.

• 39:28Cameron Hanes?

  It didn't look great with Faith running a 348, you know, but yeah, some days that's just the way it goes, I guess.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And on the track, you definitely feel more embarrassed. I guess in the marathon, it's nice because you see, everybody only sees you like once or twice, but on the track, everybody sees you.

• 39:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Oh, and that, okay, that, that reminds me. So the 59 minute half marathon, right?

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:52Cameron Hanes?

  American record. How's that?

• 39:55Speaker 01

  That was, uh, that was great. It was like, it was, it was such a like confidence boost. Cause I felt like, um, and we talked about this earlier, how I got into running was running these half marathons.

• 40:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  And I ran some pretty fast ones as a kid.

• 40:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  And so it was like, that was always the American record I really wanted to target.

• 40:16Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay, was it?

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so to be, that one to be my first national record. Um, and hopefully there'll be many more.

• 40:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  That one to be my first.

• 40:24Cameron Hanes?

  First of many, yeah.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Um, it was pretty special. Now, at the end, I did get a little, somebody did outlean me right at the line and kind of.

• 40:33Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Put his arm out, but.

• 40:36Cameron Hanes?

  I saw that, that was tight.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  It was tight, I was.

• 40:39Cameron Hanes?

  There was some controversy with that.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  There was a lot of controversy with that. I, I wasn't too mad at the time, um, because I was like, I got the record and that was what I was going for today. And then somebody, uh, some news article texted me or, um, some magazine texted me and they're like, "Hey, how does it feel to miss $22,000 by .01 seconds?" And I was like, "Oh, I, I didn't realize it was anywhere close to that." Like.

• 41:04Cameron Hanes?

  That's what's the difference between first and second?

• 41:06Speaker 01

  That was the difference, oh, well, because they had a, I think there was like a $15,000 dollar bonus if you broke the course record.

• 41:13Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  And I, I didn't know about that, and so I just get this text, um, as I'm like celebrating with some.

• 41:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Some friends and I was like, I was like, oh, like my heart just like sank, because I'm like.

• 41:26Cameron Hanes?

  Cause didn't he kind of like?

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:28Cameron Hanes?

  Kind of leaned in.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  He, he kind of leaned, well, we were running down the stretch toward the finish line and they had a really, like the tape that the people were holding was pretty short.

• 41:36Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  And so he kind of like ran to the side to just kind of cut me off a little bit. And then I was gonna run into the, the person holding the tape.

• 41:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  And he just kind of cut me off just a little bit, like.

• 41:48Cameron Hanes?

  Right. But a thousandth, you said a thousandth of a second?

• 41:51Speaker 01

  A thou- or a hundredth, a hundredth, sorry.

• 41:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, well, maybe I misheard, but doesn't take much, much of a lean or to block you to, to make that time, yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Right, right, but in the end, I was just more upset with myself because I was like, I finished that race having more in the tank.

• 42:07Cameron Hanes?

  Did you?

• 42:08Speaker 01

  I did, and.

• 42:08Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 42:09Speaker 01

  And it was, it was a little frustrating because I, I was like, I'm gonna get this record. And then I was like, I, I see the finish line, I see the clock ticking, like, I know I'm gonna get this record. Instead of being like, I just need to beat these people, I need to compete, I need to push to the line.

• 42:22Cameron Hanes?

  To win.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, I've learned that lesson probably 50 times in my life.

• 42:28Cameron Hanes?

  Well, wait, so after that, though. Did you win a race coming around the corner and passing somebody at the end?

• 42:34Speaker 01

  I did. Just, uh, it was on Memorial Day, actually.

• 42:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So you closed out good there, right?

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Right. And, and I was thinking about it during that race. It was like, I need to finish to the line.

• 42:46Cameron Hanes?

  And you did, yeah. Who'd you pass there?

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Uh, his name is Daniel Abenio.

• 42:50Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  And, um, he's, he's a, he was a silver medalist at the world championships in 2023. Um, he's one of the better, one of the better Kenyans in the, at the 10K distance. He, he's now kind of moving to the marathon, so he wasn't there today.

• 43:05Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Um, unfortunately, because I think if he was in the race, I would have had more confidence.

• 43:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he, uh, it was, it's funny. The guy who beat me at the Houston half was also in that race.

• 43:16Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. Today or now, that race on Memorial Day?

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, in that race in Memorial Day. And so when I was kind of struggling in that race, I'd look back and I'd see him like three seconds behind me. And I was like, no, I have to go. I have to beat this guy today.

• 43:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, whatever it takes.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Whatever it takes, yeah.

• 43:33Cameron Hanes?

  I remember that. That video is pretty sick where you're coming around that, that turn and it's like you just turned it on.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Oh, well, thank you.

• 43:40Cameron Hanes?

  Man, it was, I, competition is so fun to watch. Well, it's, it's fun to win as, as a runner. But to watch people just give all they got.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:49Cameron Hanes?

  Something beautiful about it.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. And it, there's something different when you're, when you're neck and neck for first place.

• 43:56Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  You're able to just dig so much more because no matter what the, what the prize is, it's like, this is for first place.

• 44:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  If it's, if there's nothing, just bragging rights, like, I mean, we've all done it, whether it's, you know, fantasy football or,

• 44:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  or whatnot, like you're compet, everyone's competitive for that first place spot.

• 44:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I mean, people, yeah, people ask about the race and you say your time or whatever, then it's just like, did you win?

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 44:23Cameron Hanes?

  That's always, that's the part, that's the big part of it.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  It is, it is.

• 44:27Cameron Hanes?

  Did you win? Yeah, I, um.

• 44:31Cameron Hanes?

  When you did those half marathons as a kid, was that, did you want to or were your parents encouraging you or was that just all you?

• 44:38Speaker 01

  I wanted to and the reason being is, um, you know, like you, you bluff to bluff with, you do bluff to bluff with your kids growing up.

• 44:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  And, um, when I was, I think I was like nine years old, my dad and my older brother ran a half marathon together and as, um, you know, the son of a, a great man, you know, every kid who has a great father wants to spend time with their father.

• 45:00Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  And it was like, I thought that was the coolest thing. Because that was what my dad did and that was what my brother did. I really looked up to him.

• 45:08Cameron Hanes?

  You want to be like them?

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Right, right. And I was just like, man, I wanna, I wanna run a half marathon and my brother was 11 when he did it with my dad and my dad was like, well, you know, there's rumors it'll stunt your growth if you start too young. So let's, let's wait until you're 12. Um, and the race like that I was going to do also had like a, the next year they had like an age stipulation. So you had to be over 12. So I was like, okay. And then when I was 12, my parents signed me up for one and it was just about like, I wanted to run it fast, but it was really just making like, I wanted to finish it for the own, for my own pride. And then, um, I finished it and then the next, like not long after I was like, now I have to do a marathon because my dad by that point had gotten into marathons.

• 45:52Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  And my parents are like, no, uh, like everyone says it's not good for a young kid to do marathons. So you can just keep running some halves and like, all right, but I'm gonna get faster.

• 46:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and you did.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  And I did and it, it's worked out very well. Um.

• 46:08Cameron Hanes?

  You have to be the fastest in the country.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Um, and but yeah, it was just all started with just wanting to be like my dad and, um, the only time he really pushed me was just saying, if I pay this, you know, eighty, eighty dollar entry fee, you have to tell me you're gonna train.

• 46:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  And that training was, you know, four runs a week and, you know, three to five, three to five miles each time.

• 46:32Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  So it wasn't like real training. It was kinda like, you gotta go out and run.

• 46:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, show, show you care.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 46:39Cameron Hanes?

  If you can spend this money on it, yeah. Well, see, we have, instead of like, was it both your parents worried about it because it's trying to stunt your growth?

• 46:47Speaker 01

  I, I think, I think they both were, but they really, they just didn't have the information.

• 46:52Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, right. Yeah. Cause we, we blame my wife on Truitt.

• 46:57Cameron Hanes?

  Not running an ultra when he was 13 because I wanted him to and she said, no, it's not good for him. It's going to stunt his growth or it's bad for his bones or whatever. So he, he didn't run it. And now we still go back because he ran the Eugene half or not full at 13 and he did pretty good. Like not your level good, but he did three 30 for the full. And the next weekend was this ultra that I run up by Corvallis is called McDonald Forest. I'm like, oh, you should go do this. I can get you in 13 years old to do an ultra to be sick. And then mom screwed it up, being too worried about stuff.

• 47:36Cameron Hanes?

  But uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't think that's true. I don't think it does.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  I don't think there's any science to it.

• 47:41Cameron Hanes?

  Cause they said that about lifting weights too for kids.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's what I heard after was like, oh, it, um, I eventually heard, yeah. It running won't stunt your growth, but lifting will. So is it not true with lifting either?

• 47:54Cameron Hanes?

  I don't think so.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:55Cameron Hanes?

  I don't think so. I mean, I, I did, I started my boys 14 and they stuck with it now, but uh, yeah, I don't know. You always hear stuff like that and you don't know, but yeah. The difference is Truitt didn't want to do any of that running, but I made him.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Oh, really? Okay.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  You saw your wife was on his side.

• 48:14Cameron Hanes?

  Pretty much. It's like dad was making the kids do stuff they don't want to do is basically the, that's pretty much their entire childhood.

• 48:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  If they don't learn discomfort at a young age, when are they going to learn it?

• 48:27Cameron Hanes?

  It's discipline. You just get, you, sometimes you had in life, you do what you don't want to do sometimes. That's how it works, right? But uh, yeah, but now like you're a huge inspiration to Truitt. Like he has big running goals and it's like, you know, we talk about you and your training and your success. And then watching you today, it's like, yeah, you, you inspire a lot of people in my family included.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. I mean, it's fun to see Truitt, you know, jumping this sport and have so much success. Especially going from, you know, I mean, there's really not much crossover when it comes to pull ups and running a marathon.

• 49:02Cameron Hanes?

  No, no. And we were talking about it, we were going to the race yesterday and like we drove by Lane Community College over there. He was, he's all conference as a freshman and then he, then he wanted to get big because he didn't like being a skinny runner. And that was like, well, his sophomore year was the best. He was running. And then I'm like, well, did you, because he made state as the first, first two years in high school. I said, what, what about your junior, senior year? I couldn't even remember. I was probably so mad at him, but I blocked it out. But he's like, he didn't even make varsity.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 49:38Cameron Hanes?

  Junior and senior, because he just didn't care. And that's the difference in running. It's like, you can't make somebody love it.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  No, no, you can't.

• 49:48Cameron Hanes?

  If, if you don't love it, it's not going to happen.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:52Cameron Hanes?

  And if you don't, and now, now he loves it. But I saw he had talent back then. And I was, it's like, drove me crazy that he didn't want to pursue it. And I, I remember telling him, I'm like, hey, if you get your act together, you could run in college. And he's like, I don't want to run for four more years. So I had no, how do you talk to somebody?

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like, you're like free school. And he's like, oh, I'll figure that out.

• 50:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. But now it's the other way. Now he loves it. And you're like, his Michael Jordan.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Oh, that's nice. It's nice to say. It's fun.

• 50:27Cameron Hanes?

  So what was your first marathon?

• 50:29Speaker 01

  So my first marathon, it was, I was already professional by that point. So it was 13 years.

• 50:34Cameron Hanes?

  Wow, really?

• 50:35Speaker 01

  So from the point of being born to running a half was more, was less time than the half, my first half to my first ball.

• 50:42Cameron Hanes?

  How come? What, what, big gap because of college and?

• 50:45Speaker 01

  College. So I served a mission for my church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And so that was two years. And then I went to college and it took me four and a half years to finish running in college. And then I had one more semester. So I was still doing track stuff then. And so I was like, I was. Yeah, I was twenty five by the time I ran my first marathon.

• 51:07Cameron Hanes?

  Wow, okay. Yeah, so just, yeah, just college and those aren't the events college runners do.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 51:14Cameron Hanes?

  Or high school for sure.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And and that was something like I had I'd been told was, you know, if you're gonna run, if you're gonna run in high school, like, don't do a marathon then. And so I was like, okay, well, I'll do it in college. And then I go to run in college and it's like, oh, yeah, you're not you're not running a marathon. But when I was looking at schools to go to, um, I would talk to the coaches and I would always bring up, hey, would you ever coach me after college when I go on or run marathons?

• 51:42Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  And some of the coaches were pretty honest and they were like, well, um, I I think there's better pro coaches than me. So go like, I'd recommend you to go to different pro coaches. And I thought that was, it's great to look back on now, but I don't think that convinced me to go to school.

• 52:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Um, and other coaches were like, yeah, and Coach I Stone had been a two time Olympian in the marathon.

• 52:05Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  And he'd almost made two teams in the ten K. Um, or one early in his career and one after uh his two teams in the marathon. And so I saw that as like, this guy's done what I wanted to do. And he's coached other Olympians. And so I was like, this is, um, the reason I went to BOU was because I'd seen he'd done. Yeah, he'd done what I wanted to do and he coached people to do what I wanted to do.

• 52:30Cameron Hanes?

  Perfect.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  So I was like, this is the guy that I want to coach me. He knows what he's doing.

• 52:34Cameron Hanes?

  And then you went out faster than he said today.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then I went out faster than he said today. I I'm not I'm not a great, I'm not a great follower, but.

• 52:42Cameron Hanes?

  No, I'm just kidding. It's hey, races, you sometimes you make decisions you should make.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 52:49Cameron Hanes?

  Went out a little too hot, but yeah, no. And how how old is he now? He's been doing it a long time, right?

• 52:55Speaker 01

  I think he, I think he's early sixties, probably sixty three.

• 52:58Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, oh, yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  If I if I had to guess, I feel like when he turns sixty, we ain't a big deal out of it.

• 53:03Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, he's been coaching for, I think this is twenty fifth year coaching.

• 53:10Cameron Hanes?

  I know I've seen his name or read his name many times.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:14Cameron Hanes?

  He's kind of a legend in the sport, isn't he?

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 53:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  And and what's fun is he just keeps having more and more success.

• 53:20Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Like twenty twenty four, he he had coached. Uh, there were four of us. He was currently coaching that made the Olympics.

• 53:27Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  And there was one other of his former athletes who made the Olympics in the marathon. Um. And then we had the BYU cross country team win the NCAA championships. So he just had like the most storied year of his career.

• 53:42Cameron Hanes?

  On a run.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  And it's his like 24th year coaching.

• 53:45Cameron Hanes?

  Stuck with it.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's just, you know, having more and more success every year.

• 53:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  What's so nice about him though, as a coach, is he's always willing to learn.

• 53:53Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  He's not like set in his ways. He's not like, this is the only way to do it. Um, he'll bring up things like, I think, let's try this out, or hey, another coach is trying this out. Let's see if we like it. And if athletes come to him and are like, hey, I wanna, I wanna change something here or there. He's very open to it. And I think that's what makes him such a great coach.

• 54:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, cuz a lot of coaches aren't like that.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:16Cameron Hanes?

  They're pretty set in their ways. Aren't they know what works? Here's the formula, my formula, here's what works, and this is what we're doing.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Especially older coaches.

• 54:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Like, they'll be like, no, this worked for, you know, so and so back in 98 or something like that.

• 54:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  And, uh, no, he's very good about being like, he's very humble and he's like, oh, this didn't work when I was an athlete.

• 54:34Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  So, let's see if this works instead.

• 54:37Cameron Hanes?

  Like, what, what's something that, that he's changed that you can recall? Like, is something like, are you thinking like double threshold? Isn't that like a thing people are doing nowadays?

• 54:46Speaker 01

  It's a new thing.

• 54:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  He's tried it out. He started doing it with our cross country team about two years ago.

• 54:51Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  And they've, they've had a lot of success with that.

• 54:55Cameron Hanes?

  Tell me what that is exactly, the definition.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  So, I mean, the act, well, the actual definition, we probably, we probably go a little bit harder than we should, but it's, you wanna stay at like your threshold on a blood lactate levels. They'll like prick their finger and get it tested. And they'll do repeats of, you know, either six minutes or two miles or a mile. And then, you know, some short rest, like 60 seconds or 90 seconds.

• 55:23Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  They'll test their lactate levels. They have to be under a certain number. We don't do it like that. We're more on effort based. So it's like, we'll go do a five mile run at a threshold effort that's, you know, somewhere between half marathon and marathon pace.

• 55:37Cameron Hanes?

  So pretty fast.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  So pretty fast, but not like, we're not, you know.

• 55:41Cameron Hanes?

  Not redlining.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Not redlining.

• 55:42Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  And, um, you know, when you're doing mile repeats at your marathon pace, it feels pretty good.

• 55:47Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  And so. Um, what he'll have us do is it'll be like these effort things on the, on the grass. Just like run, you know, a thousand meters on the grass and then we do 60 seconds grass. We'll do that eight to 12 times.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  And then we'll do something else, like some mile repeats on the grass, you know, four times at about the same effort. And so you're never, you're not pushing that much. You're never redlining, but it's, you're just getting a lot of work in at close to like a faster pace.

• 56:18Cameron Hanes?

  So what is the double is like, are those two different things like the first?

• 56:23Speaker 01

  You do one in the morning and one in the evening.

• 56:25Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, gotcha.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  It's essentially like doing double workouts.

• 56:28Cameron Hanes?

  It's like football, daily doubles.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 56:30Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, gotcha. Yeah. Cause I've heard that mentioned a lot and a lot of, I'd listened to a lot of running podcasts and I knew that was like a new kind of strategy or approach. So, yeah.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  I think with, um, Jakob Engeritz and started doing it, I think that led to a lot of people to trying it out.

• 56:46Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  And I think it was a thing like with Norwegian athletes for a while. But it wasn't until Jakob got all this success that, that anybody really thought to do it.

• 56:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Cause you'd think that, let me think. I mean, if you had a hard workout and you had a night's sleep, then the next morning you're recovered. So it's, it's sort of like, you got a whole day to recover to fuel. Do you guys nap or do you guys just get off your feet?

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just kind of get off my feet.

• 57:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And then recover and then you can, so you're getting, yeah. Oh, I was talking, that's who I was talking, I was talking to somebody about this. Maybe it was Cole and I was saying, what, cause I was like, yeah, I was like peeling back. We didn't talk about this in detail, like the double threshold and what that meant or your coaching strategies. But I was thinking, what if like, um, what if you didn't care about what time of day it was? And you just got eight hours in between every workout. So like you might work out in the middle of the night, but you had that eight hours break and then you sleep. Then like maybe you could get instead of say two workouts a day, seven days a week, that would be 14 workouts. What if that led, what if you could get 20 workouts?

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Right. That's a good point.

• 57:59Cameron Hanes?

  But in your recovering and your fueling and your sleeping in between each one.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. Cause like for us, we'll do like, you know, a hard day, easy day, hard day, easy day. But I wonder if you know, you break up your days to be 16 hours, you know?

• 58:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Sixteen hour cycles.

• 58:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Would you have enough recovery if you're fueling right and eating right?

• 58:19Cameron Hanes?

  Exactly.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  And sleeping enough?

• 58:21Cameron Hanes?

  Cause remember that when Kobe Bryant, he would say that example about if he gets up at three in the morning, works out at four in the morning, goes home, he can get more work at like another workout or hours of workout more per day than everybody else. And then over years, they'll never catch up.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:40Cameron Hanes?

  Remember that?

• 58:40Speaker 01

  I I've heard that, yeah.

• 58:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So I was thinking about that with running.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's just so hard to do like so many miles.

• 58:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  But I do think there's other things you can do that'll supplement like, I mean, like Cole, I don't know if how open he is with his training, but his group does a lot of like, they'll cross train, they'll like go on the bike for like hours or they'll go swim for half an hour to an hour. And then, um, they'll do like anti-gravity treadmills so they can run harder, but it's not as much pounding on your bones and stuff.

• 59:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  And so if you did that type of approach.

• 59:19Cameron Hanes?

  For one of those workouts.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, like one of those workouts, like you're adding in something else and then you're just recovering extra hard.

• 59:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Anyway, I was just like with this thought, it's always like, what else could we do?

• 59:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:31Cameron Hanes?

  You know, be more creative. But yeah, I don't know. Um, yeah, that's interesting.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  And and I think that's something that's probably going to come from like, I bet it's going to be somebody who's coached by some coach that didn't do running that like did a different sport.

• 59:47Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  Is going to bring something like that into the sport and you know, somebody's going to have success with that. And then that's going to, you know, change the sport. I don't know if it'll happen from anybody who's more traditional sense of running.

• 1:00:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Cause you you go to back, you go back to what's always worked.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:00:04Cameron Hanes?

  That's, I mean, that's human nature. Um, I was curious, you know, you mentioned this well ago, but on your mission, you, I think I read you went to Ghana, right?

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:00:13Cameron Hanes?

  And I don't know, maybe these guys said it. They do some research for me and usually come up with stupid questions at the end, which I'll probably skip because they're inappropriate and not good normally. You just gotta know these guys, but they said something like it said, or maybe true it said, but it said like you could only work out a half hour a day.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:31Cameron Hanes?

  For a couple of years.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:32Cameron Hanes?

  How hard was that?

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  That was tough.

• 1:00:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  That was tough. Like when you're so used to just, you know, exercising so much and it becomes so much of your own character.

• 1:00:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  It's hard to be like, all right, I have a half an hour to do as much as I can. And now they're a little more lenient on that. But when I was, when I was on the mission, it was, uh, for the first eighteen months, they, they changed the rule when I was like six months to go home, but then by that point I was so dialed in on the same schedule. Um, and you, you have to also be with a mission companion.

• 1:01:04Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  And so like, yeah, I could get a good workout running thirty minutes a day, but if they didn't want to run with me, I'm not running.

• 1:01:12Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  And so, um, I tried various things and a lot of my, the mission companions I was with were from Africa and different parts of Africa. And I think they were a few, a couple of them. Um, there were two of them that were like, they hated running with me. Like they would run with me one time. I'd say, hey, I'd love to run for our exercise in the morning. And they would like try and race me and then like they couldn't keep up with me and then they would just start walking and, um, like, oh man, like I can't have this white guy like faster than me. We're so upset at that.

• 1:01:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  And they, they were like very fit guys. Like we were running hard.

• 1:01:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  But then at the moment.

• 1:01:52Cameron Hanes?

  Best in the world.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Right, right. Or at least, yeah, for my age group, I was, you know, one of the best in the, at least in the U S. And so I was just like, yeah, my, my poor companion. But I, I would usually get the guys that were like really overweight, like Americans that are like, yeah, I'm going to lose weight and they'd go run with me. Someone would run with me for twenty minutes, some thirty and then near the end I had a nice routine where I'd like. Um, I, I was like a 21 minute routine and then I'd go run with the guy for nine minutes.

• 1:02:22Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  And so I do as many push, pushups still failure.

• 1:02:25Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  And I'd get, I'd get about 70 at the end of the mission.

• 1:02:29Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, that's good.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was pretty proud of it.

• 1:02:31Cameron Hanes?

  That's why you look so jacked today.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  That, that's probably why I like a little bit bigger than all the other, uh, runners.

• 1:02:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, you did. Okay, I was, I was, do you think that, uh, this, maybe this is the part of the point, but limiting how much you can put into yourself is kind of the point of what you're doing or, you know, cause it's, our life isn't all about us.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:02:56Cameron Hanes?

  Do you think that you learned and, and grew from, you, you were so dialed in on training or is such an important part of you said of your life? That that was good for you?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Oh, a hundred percent.

• 1:03:06Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  I, I think the mentality of going from, you know, sports, um, they're pretty selfish. Like you're focused on like, how can I be the best?

• 1:03:17Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  And so like I went from be, being pretty selfish, you know, like my parents were sacrificing for me to, to compete, to go to meets all over the country. To all of a sudden, like, no one, no one cares about running that's around me, like.

• 1:03:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  All of a sudden.

• 1:03:33Cameron Hanes?

  It means nothing.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  It means nothing. Like no, no kid in Ghana cares what my mile time is in high school.

• 1:03:39Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  They're, they care about, you know, the tough things for them. They care about, um, it's a very religious country, so they care about Jesus.

• 1:03:47Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:03:48Cameron Hanes?

  Are they Christians?

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Most of them. I think it's like 80, 80 something percent of Christians and then most of the rest are Muslim.

• 1:03:54Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Um, so it's a very, uh, very religious nation. So they care about religion. They care about, uh, doing what's right in front of God, but they also care about, you know, food and housing and electricity and if they can get that because it's, it's, it's a third world country and, um, they're, they're one of the, they're one of the quicker growing countries in Africa.

• 1:04:19Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  They're doing very well, um, compared to most countries in Africa, but they still are, you know, it's taken a while for them to rise and, um. I don't know, it's it's cool to see uh all the development and all the improvements, but it's like a lot of people are just coming from coming from nothing and or very little compared to what we have here in the States. And so um it was it was very humbling to be like, you know what? Like, running is just a sport. It's that's that's all it is. And I'm happy now that I can make it my living, but I don't think if I had learned, if I hadn't learned that there, I don't know if I would have been able to get as good as I am now. Just because I think I would have over obsessed and

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  overthought about the sport. And then it was good to take a step back and be like, no, like, there are so many things everybody else worries about that are even in my life, are priority over running. And they should be. So.

• 1:05:17Cameron Hanes?

  Is that? Yeah, I mean, it's probably hard, but like, even on days like today, that's good to think about. You know? Yeah, cuz we we are so privileged. I I remember I've been over there a few times hunting. I was in Tanzania for a few weeks. And I remember, you know, them saying, so, life is good in America, huh? And I'm like, yeah, I mean, but to them, America is like, I mean, everybody has jobs and money. And it's like, it's like the promised land for them. They're just like, can't even imagine what America would be like. And we're like, I mean, we're just born here. We're just we got won the lottery of being born in America. We didn't do anything.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Right. Oh, absolutely.

• 1:06:04Cameron Hanes?

  You know, we haven't. But yeah, it's so I think we forget that. You know, we forget how lucky we are to to have these opportunities.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent. And even when I was out there, like, there was one time, it was like my last two weeks out there. And I I had like gotten so used to what Ghana was like that I was like, that made sense to me. Like, the US, like, it was tough coming home, just because of the culture shock.

• 1:06:33Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm. You know, there's something so simple, and I talk about, I'm not trying to compare anything to that. But like, when you're hunting, or when you're over there, when you're when life is simple, when it's just a matter of, I need to get water and food, find a place to sleep tonight. There's something.

• 1:06:52Cameron Hanes?

  Beautiful about just, just that's life. Life is so simple. That's all that matters.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:59Cameron Hanes?

  And then we get here distracted with all these other things about what people think of us. What are we gonna post? What are we gonna this or that? And it's just like, is this really what life is about?

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:13Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like, you have to go to places like that or experience things like that. And then it sounds like we're, I don't even know how to explain it, but it,

• 1:07:23Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. It's just, we have to experience that to, to get kind of woke up and just kind of, and just like, to me, it was a wake up call. It was like, what have I been complaining about?

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  That was one, the one big thing I did learn there is I thought, oh, you know, coming over from America, I have a high school education and I can read. So I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm really smart. And then I go there and I'm just, I feel like an idiot every single day. Like I mess up every, like not just the cultural things, but it's like, I have no idea how to hand wash clothes.

• 1:07:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Like I, I just get there and I'm like, oh crap. Like I have to learn from somebody and I was terrible at it. And it would take me like two hours and then it's like, you look over and this woman hand washed all her clothes in like 20 minutes. And you're like, oh, that's a, that's something I just don't know how to do. And

• 1:08:11Cameron Hanes?

  Well, yeah. And it's like, you can, you can do calculus and it doesn't mean anything.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:16Cameron Hanes?

  It means absolutely nothing there.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly.

• 1:08:20Cameron Hanes?

  So, yeah, I don't know. I think that's important for us is, I don't know. I, I, I don't know. I, I just think that we're very lucky that, and we didn't, we don't deserve, we don't deserve, we just got born here.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Right. Right.

• 1:08:34Cameron Hanes?

  And, uh, yeah, I don't know.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  So we can, I don't know. There's, it, the so what to that is always hard for me. Like, what am I supposed to do to help people there?

• 1:08:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah. Cause you can't help everybody in the world.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  You definitely can't.

• 1:08:50Cameron Hanes?

  And you want to, you don't want anybody suffering.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:54Cameron Hanes?

  And you know, they're suffering.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:56Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah, it's, you could drive yourself crazy thinking about that.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Oh, I, I feel like I do.

• 1:09:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And, yeah, it's just so, so, hmm.

• 1:09:07Cameron Hanes?

  I know I've been impacted by traveling the world and seeing these different cultures and different people and just trying to learn from them because we get in our life here and we get pretty dialed in on whatever we need to do and we can have success because you know for whatever reason but going and experiencing those different things and befriending people and caring about other cultures and people man it's I know not everybody can do that and some people never leave their hometown and their whole life and they're they're just as happy but man I'm grateful to be able to you know just just see that and grow and hopefully gives us perspective I think is the biggest thing give us perspectives

• 1:09:50Cameron Hanes?

  that helps helps us back in our where we influence people directly.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely yeah and I mean and sometimes it's just you know your neighbor down the road or the guy next door so it yeah it can be too hard to find out how to help you know your friends in Ghana or maybe the people you don't know in Ghana but you're like I know there's somebody that needs this help.

• 1:10:13Cameron Hanes?

  You can have compassion and grace and offer grace to people and yeah so if we learn that from I guess the travels and that's good but yeah that's that's interesting.

• 1:10:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah dang well you know what.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  That was a lot deeper than I thought we were gonna go with that.

• 1:10:31Cameron Hanes?

  I don't ever you know I never know where this conversation is gonna go I thought you know like I don't know if you ever listened to Rogan but I've been on his and he never has notes right some people have these all these notes and they're like oh I want to do this I want to ask this and that and I so I'm like oh I'm just gonna be like Joe I didn't realize how hard that is it is really hard to not have a plan and to like because when you're doing a podcast yes you want to listen to I want to listen to you but I also got to think about we got to keep this going there can't be like long pauses and I'm like wow Joe is just really a lot better at that than I am so I never know what what I'm gonna say.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  And his podcasts are long.

• 1:11:14Cameron Hanes?

  They're long and he's so he never gets tired dude we'll go out to dinner like after the fights. He'll, he just loves to talk.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:11:23Cameron Hanes?

  He loves to have conversations. That's why it's, it's not even, he's just so good at it.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:29Cameron Hanes?

  And anyway, so maybe I need notes, I think is the moral to the story. No, so I never know what we're gonna talk about, but I'm like, well, we'll just talk about running and then who knows what else, but.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:11:40Cameron Hanes?

  I'm, I'm super thankful that you were, you know, willing to come over and, you know, we're big fans of you and I'm even a bigger fan now, just getting to know you a little bit and um, we're gonna go run Piska, right?

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:55Cameron Hanes?

  Are you down?

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  I'm down.

• 1:11:57Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, well, I'd, I'd love to. Do you guys have any like appropriate questions? Uh, yeah. Oh, wow. Okay.

• 1:12:07Cameron Hanes?

  Let's hear it. This is Gi, this is Gideon. His nickname's Gi, no, it's your middle name, right?

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, middle name's Gideon.

• 1:12:13Cameron Hanes?

  And then?

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  You can just call us the Peanut Gallery.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:12:16Cameron Hanes?

  And then Connor is? Larry.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:12:22Speaker 02

  Okay, um, you talked about like when you were younger, you know, being at a middle school and then some new kids come in and you realize you're not the fastest there even, but you still had that um, unwavering belief that you were gonna be faster. How was that like coming from college, moving into professional running?

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a great question. I feel like, you know, finishing college, you're not as ignorant. Um, especially because in the NCAA, you have so many good Africans that come in, like the East African running is the best in the world.

• 1:12:52Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  And a lot of those guys will come over here and they realize, oh, I can't get a pro contract. I'll go run it in the NCAA system. I'll get an education. And then they'll get good enough to either get a pro contract or all of a sudden they have a bachelor's or a master's degree and they're able to move on. Um, so it, it was definitely tough. I mean, today's race was pretty eye-opening again. Uh, seeing, you know, I'm, I'm almost a full minute back from some of the best in the world, but uh, it's that, that ignorance, I feel like that keeps us going.

• 1:13:23Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  It's like, yeah, I'm a minute back, but next time I'm gonna be 48 seconds back, the next time I'm gonna be 30 seconds back and eventually

• 1:13:29Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  um, I'm gonna catch these guys. So it's, it's a tough thing, but uh,

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  I think for me, it was a little easier because we had, there was some of the, one of the 2016 Olympic marathoners for the US was, was a BYU guy who kind of was training with us in college, when I was in college. His name's Jared Ward. And seeing him have success, kind of like paved a trail for Clayton and myself. And then we had Kenneth Rooks win a silver medal this past year. And even though he was doing the steeplechase, it was cool to like, see all of us just kind of follow this plan that Jared had kind of, not even made a plan with coach, but it's like the path he

• 1:14:10Cameron Hanes?

  To success.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  Path to success he made.

• 1:14:13Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. That gives you a little bit of good hope that, hey, we got, you know, that was one thing, Truitt, he one time, when he went for the world record, it was 8,000 first time, and he got 4,000 and just couldn't go any further. One thing about him is like, it's never like, I just don't have what it takes. It's like, no, I just need to work harder.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:33Cameron Hanes?

  And it sounds like that's your same attitude. It's like, you can have a bad day. It's just like, okay, well, this is where I'm at now. Just get to work.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  I think in running, that's, that's how a lot of athletes are. Like, I'm, I'm finding it's really hard for me to ever say like, um, like, yeah, I'm just, like, that was it. It's always like, okay, what could I improve on today? And what can I improve on for the next five years?

• 1:14:58Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Or four years or whatever I need to do to get to the next Olympics. Like, how am I going to win a gold medal in, in LA? What do I need to do?

• 1:15:06Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  And it's like, I'm, I don't know, I was, I was 71 seconds off a bronze medal at the last Olympics.

• 1:15:12Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  I have that memorized. Um, but now it's like, okay, what, I've, I've added little things here and there. I've ran a little bit more miles every week. Um, and it's those little things that you just have to add up to be like, how am I, it is like, how do I work harder? Or I'm just going to work harder, but it is, you know, almost calculated.

• 1:15:33Cameron Hanes?

  Intentional.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So 71, what place did you get?

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  I was eighth.

• 1:15:38Cameron Hanes?

  Eighth, but 71 seconds from third?

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:42Cameron Hanes?

  Pretty tight. I mean, that's that. I mean, just over a minute.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:15:46Cameron Hanes?

  Doesn't seem like, I mean, regular life, that's nothing.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:15:50Cameron Hanes?

  A little different, but yeah, you were there.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:53Cameron Hanes?

  You're right there.

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  I mean, it didn't, it didn't feel like right there, because I can't, my, my eyesight's not great, so I couldn't see him anymore. But I was like, I was like, oh, I, I was just hoping people were gonna start, um, you know, over, overheating and blowing up the last few miles. And there were only like two guys over the last six that did it. So I was kind of disappointed when I like, I was like, way to say, I thought everybody was gonna like blow up because this course is supposed to be so hard, but.

• 1:16:17Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  It was fine.

• 1:16:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that was Parrish, right?

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Well, okay, what else you got?

• 1:16:24Speaker 02

  Uh, you guys talked about like sports psychology and I find it interesting, different athletes kind of have different rituals, or maybe they're superstitious. Do you have a routine or ritual you do before big races?

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  I, I definitely have a routine. It's not super like, um, cut and set in stone, though. I think in a way it's nice to just go with the flow. Um, I have like, you know, about four hours out of a race, three hours out, I'll eat a meal.

• 1:16:49Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  And I'll have like the certain things I'll take, like, um, I'll do like a Morton, they have their solid one sixty bars. I'll take some of that, I'll take one of those few hours out and then I'll take, um, their three twenty drink mix and be drinking that through the day, but it's, um, nothing like super specific because some people, when their rituals get thrown off, they really struggle and I could see myself being like that. I think in high school, it was like I had to have the same pair of socks.

• 1:17:16Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  And then my senior year at the state meet, I didn't have those socks.

• 1:17:20Cameron Hanes?

  Ooh.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  And I, and I didn't run very well and it was like, was it the socks or was I being superstitious? Or was it some, was it, I just wasn't fit, you know?

• 1:17:31Cameron Hanes?

  I, I did see that because you, you won as a junior.

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:35Cameron Hanes?

  And then, did you get second as a senior?

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  I was second as a senior.

• 1:17:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  So I, I actually, this is, I actually had a little bone injury in my femur, maybe not a little injury, I probably shouldn't have ran.

• 1:17:46Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:17:47Cameron Hanes?

  Who beat you?

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  A guy named Josh Collins.

• 1:17:49Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  He's.

• 1:17:51Cameron Hanes?

  What's he doing now?

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  I, I don't even know. Last, last I talked to him, he seemed to be doing pretty well, but.

• 1:17:56Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  Um, he went, he graduated from SUU and I don't know, I, I bet he's living in, uh,

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  The mountains of like midway Utah or something like that, like somewhere really, really fun.

• 1:18:09Cameron Hanes?

  But you were hurting in that race?

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  But I was hurting in that race and it was actually the track me I I I forgot the socks, but in that race I was hurting and I I tripped, um, I had gapped him and then I began to worry so much that he was gonna pass me. And I just slowed down the last like we cut, you came out into a track and I slowed down the last few meters. Just like, I think the worry just like was crushing me. And then he like, the moment he came by, my form just like went and I just ate it on the track.

• 1:18:41Cameron Hanes?

  Oh no.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  And so it was like, not only did I, uh, um, like get beat, but like I also fell probably thirty meters from the finish line.

• 1:18:51Cameron Hanes?

  Oh no.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  And I just got up and just jogged it in and then collapsed right after and it it was, you know, talk about embarrassing because they have like stands at the finish line.

• 1:19:03Cameron Hanes?

  Oh man.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  But it was a good learning experience and like, um, it was good for him because like he had, he was one of the better guys in the country at the time, but it was like I had just been, I was just so, so much better at the time. So it was like, nobody ever like thought of him as a good guy nationally.

• 1:19:23Cameron Hanes?

  Won the year before.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  I had won the year before, yeah. And I'd won by quite a lot, like almost a half a minute.

• 1:19:29Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Yeah. Do you think that? Yeah, I mean, I, I know, uh, there's another ultra runner, um, man, wow, he, yeah, God, Jeff Browning and he has this great, he got beat at, uh, Cocal Donna last year and he said, it's not what he wanted, but it's what he needed.

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:50Cameron Hanes?

  And he's kind of tearing up saying that is in this documentary and, uh, do you think that obviously you didn't want to lose that race, but did it help you in some way?

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. I, I can look at every race and be like, I did something here that, or there was something I learned from it. Um, and sometimes it takes me a minute, like,

• 1:20:10Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, of course.

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  Like today, I'm still trying to digest it, but I mean, every race this year, like, um, there was something I took from it, like for example, in the, the half marathon that I talked about earlier where I broke the American record. It was like, okay, I want to finish through the line.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  And then at the the New York half marathon, it was um I ran that in March, I came in second there. And it was like, okay, I wanna um run tangents a little bit better and also just I work, I I was better at finishing through the line. I was kind of alone, but it was like I I really did that well. So I went to the Boston Marathon, I'm pretty confident. And at the Boston Marathon, I there were certain parts I got so con um I got so caught up in trying to push uh or in trying to beat the guys around me.

• 1:21:05Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  That from mile like twenty one to twenty five, I was just trying to like throw in surges and and little sprints to try and make the guys around me slow down.

• 1:21:15Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  And they didn't slow down at all. And I afterward, I I missed like the American, the like Boston doesn't count as a world or as a record eligible course, but I missed the best time at Boston by an American by ten seconds.

• 1:21:29Cameron Hanes?

  Ooh.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  But I thought I was being smart because I was trying to beat the two guys next to me.

• 1:21:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  And in the end, I was like, I I had enough that if I just kept a consistent effort.

• 1:21:37Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  I would have I would have beaten that time and those guys would have probably beaten me still.

• 1:21:42Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  Um, but I was like, I want to work on that. And so my next race um was this Boulder Boulder one.

• 1:21:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  And with a mile to go there, I was about fifteen seconds back.

• 1:21:54Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  And I was like, I I don't care how far this guy's ahead of me. I'm gonna push to the line was because of what I learned in um in Houston. And then based off what I did in Boston, I was like, and I don't I don't care if he's not even coming back to me at all. I'm just gonna keep running and keep pushing the pace so I can get my fastest time on this course.

• 1:22:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  Um, that I can get today. And then in the end, he faded with about I passed him at I don't know, thirty forty meters left. I didn't catch him and I wasn't even close to him for till probably uh two hundred meters.

• 1:22:25Cameron Hanes?

  Wow. Yeah, you but you stayed disciplined.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  But I stayed disciplined.

• 1:22:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's the key. It seems like to all this.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:32Cameron Hanes?

  Is just staying disciplined on what's the goal.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Hmm. I did hear you say one thing that like you were happy or it was good for him, the guy who beat you in your senior year to win. That, that is healthy.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:49Cameron Hanes?

  Cause you knew that was important to him. Maybe more important for him to win that than for you to win it. I don't know.

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  It definitely was. I mean, um, and I think that was something that was, it was healthy for me to lose because then it realized, it helped me learn, oh, nothing's, nothing's given. It doesn't matter, you know, what you've done beforehand. If you don't show up on the day, if you get a little, like if you let up, you're, you're not going to lose. You're not going to be able to win.

• 1:23:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  Um, and so I think it was, it was good for me to lose, good for him to win. It probably meant a lot more to him at the time.

• 1:23:24Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  And I don't know, that's a, that's a cool thought.

• 1:23:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  That really got me thinking about that.

• 1:23:32Cameron Hanes?

  Well, yeah, I mean, we're always learning if we're doing it right.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  Okay, last one. Uh, how do you balance the camaraderie of running with fellow Americans, running for a team, running for the USA, but also knowing that when you step on that track, you're going for gold?

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's a great question. I think, um, one thing I really had to work on because I mean, my training partner Clayton Young and I, we're, we've been the top Americans and the last, the last four marathons we've run together, we've been the top two Americans.

• 1:24:08Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  And it's tough because we train together. Um, I mean, he joked once that we probably spent more time together than we spent with our wives.

• 1:24:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  And I was, I, I, I got a good after for that. I was like, no, we don't. But then it was like, we do spend a lot of time together. You're, you're not wrong.

• 1:24:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  But it's, I don't know, I I have to look back and be like, it's not me versus Clayton. It's me versus myself and me versus everyone.

• 1:24:36Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  And um, so it's like if Clayton runs really well, yeah, he might beat me. But if I run really well, I'm in a place, if I focus on everybody else, I might run five. I might be five places up.

• 1:24:49Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  What I normally am or and he might be six places up. He might be the one ahead of me.

• 1:24:54Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  Um, but I I can't, I can't compare too much with the other Americans because, you know, you can get complacent about being, oh, I'm top American, but I'm a hundredth in the world. Or I'm top American, but I'm eighth at the Olympics. You know, it's like, I wanna be, it's it's not.

• 1:25:10Cameron Hanes?

  Best in the world.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not best in the world.

• 1:25:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  And so I just try and focus on improvement every day, but it does make it tough at the Olympic trials.

• 1:25:19Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  Because it's like only three people are gonna make that team.

• 1:25:22Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  And so I gotta I gotta focus on what I can do to get there and not focus on I need to be um, I need to be Clayton Young or I need to be Leonard Carrier or I need to be, you know, whoever the other great Americans are in the marathon.

• 1:25:36Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I get that. But yeah, I um, that was a good question because I was curious about like sometimes you you wonder if sometimes, I don't know if these other countries work together sometimes, like in Boston, it seems like there was some fellow countrymen and I don't know if they were helping each other.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, there were a few, um, there were some Ethiopians helping each other.

• 1:26:01Cameron Hanes?

  That's what it was.

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, the the the returning champion, um, Sisalama. I hope I said his name right. I I'm I'm I'm terrible at pronouncing some of these East African names, especially the Ethiopian ones.

• 1:26:14Cameron Hanes?

  You've done good as far as I know, because I don't know how to say it either.

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  Um, but Sisalama, he he was the returning champion and he was running pretty well and like everybody's like looking to him, but he'd kind of been open in the press conference. He's like, I'm injured, like.

• 1:26:30Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  Don't expect me to do too well. And it was like, wow, that's that's interesting. You'll say that. And then there was a guy who was a former world champion in the five K or two time world champion in the five K. He was in it from. Uh, also from Ethiopia. I don't, I don't even think they trained together. Hmm. But he went up to him and they started talking mid race. Oh. And then he like dropped back and Sisah was leading and like going the pace that I think Mukhtar told him to go. Mm hmm. And um, and then Mukhtar ended up taking fifth place, but it was like they were, Mukhtar was the top Ethiopian that day. Hmm. And I wonder if what he was saying to him was, was helping him out and like, let's uh, yeah, like, here's what I want you to do, cause everybody's, everybody's keying off you, cause you're the, you won it last year. Mm hmm.

• 1:27:16Speaker 01

  And uh, it was, it was pretty cool, like seeing how they work together. I, I think like Clayton and I have done that, like, he, he's helped me probably more during races than I've helped him. Hmm. Um, because I keep, in, in races, you know, we'll have our race specific water bottle with our drink mixes in them. Right. And it's been like, there was at, both at the Olympics and at the Olympic trials. Um, at the Olympic trials, I, I missed it, like I, I grabbed like the lid instead of the like bottle itself and it just flipped. Oh no. And just flew across the course. And then Clayton was like, here, you can have half mine. Hmm. And then at the Olympics, I grabbed the wrong one. And they had people out on that course like handing it to us, like these ice hats and things.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  And I, I grabbed the wrong one and the guy like knew it was Clayton, so he like tried to like not let me have it. Yeah. And so it just like, but I was running so fast that he just knocked it out of his hand and I was like, I was like, ah dang it, like, and then Clayton grabbed mine and he comes to me, he's like, I got your bottle. And I was like, I was like, thanks. I drank like half of it, gave it to him and he drank the other half. Yeah. And he, he was like, oh, he was expecting me to have his. Right. Cause he puts um, he puts some different stuff in his. I do just straight Morton three twenty and he'll, he'll mix his up with like, he actually I think uses ketone IQ. Okay. Um, and then he'll like mix that in with it. So they're a little different. Yeah. But I, I felt really bad to like, um.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Both the Olympic trials and the Olympics have to rely on him.

• 1:28:46Cameron Hanes?

  Well, that's where being a teammate pays off.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:28:50Cameron Hanes?

  Probably more friends than teammates.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:53Cameron Hanes?

  You guys are just friends. But yeah, interesting stories. I'd love hearing all that, all the behind the scenes stuff. Have you done a lot of podcasts?

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  I've done, I've done a few. They're always running, running like, like Sidious Mag.

• 1:29:07Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Like Chris Chavez.

• 1:29:08Cameron Hanes?

  They do a good job.

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  He does a great job. He's a lot of fun to be on.

• 1:29:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah. I listen to, I listen to all the, I listen to a lot of running ones. It's fun. I love hearing all the strategy stuff like what you've shared. So thank you.

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you for having me.

• 1:29:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, of course. Well, let's go hit the mountain.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  All right, let's do it.

• 1:29:25Cameron Hanes?

  All right. Keep hammering, guys.