The Wizards Win (Something!) and More Lottery Reactions, Plus the Juggernaut Knicks With Joe House, Tate Frazier, and Chris Vernon

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Tate Frazier and Joe House to recap the NBA draft lottery and to preview the possible lottery picks (0:31). Then, Chris Vernon joins to give his thoughts on Memphis’s no. 3 pick and to catch up on the NBA playoffs (53:05). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Joe House, Tate Frazier, and Chris Vernon Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo #ULTRACourtside could get you closer to the game! https://michelobultra.com/courtside MICHELOB ULTRA®️ COURTSIDE ’25 to ’26. No Purchase Necessary. Open to US residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026 Multiple entry periods. See Official Rules at https://michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

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• 1:10Bill Simmons?

  What a special day here on the Bill Simmons Podcast, live on Netflix. Tate Frazier is here. Employee number one at The Ringer back in 2015. Now a host for us on a Ringer tailgate, pops on a bunch of our shows. A college basketball expert, dare I would say. And more importantly, because Zach Low couldn't be here today because he was at the lottery watching Joe House's favorite team. Oh, yeah. We called it. We called it to being Joe House. You finally got the number one pick in an awesome draft. I've known you since 1988. September, we ate food and played pickup basketball together. That's how this all started. I have never seen your Wizards even make the conference finals.

• 1:54Bill Simmons?

  You've never had a truly awesome player in your team. You've had fun players. You've had good players. You haven't had an awesome player. How are you feeling?

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Well, let me say right up front that it is, of course, ridiculous, irrational for a grown ass man with a mortgage to derive such enormous pleasure, joy for something as dumb as where the ping pong balls land. But let me tell you right now, I apologize to absolutely fucking nobody. Chip is in the house. Number one is right here, baby. And we got it done with my guy, number two, John Wall in that chair. And look what we do. We do the doggy.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Did a John Wall?

• 2:50Bill Simmons?

  I'm just glad you have pants on.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Well, I wasn't encouraged to whip my dick out. Now, if you'll indulge me, I'd like to offer, I did prepare an acceptance speech for today. I did a little acceptance speech.

• 3:03Bill Simmons?

  Oh, let's hear it.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  So I have to start with my wife, because today is Mother's Day, and she agreed that we could end Mother's Day today at 3 o'clock PM Eastern, so I could get in locked in. That focus was crucially important.

• 3:20Bill Simmons?

  Good karma. Good karma. Plus, you probably had some drinks at brunch with her, so you're feeling great.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  We did that. The Bloody Marys, that was, put us in the right frame of mind. Huge thanks to Ernie Grunfeld, to Tommy Shepard, to Jan Vesely, to Johnny Davis, all the way up to this moment, finally, with incredible infrastructure, a brain trust who created the tank of all tanks, a tank so brilliant and beautiful in execution, that the league had to change the goddamn rankings. We'll never have a lottery like this again. I'd like to thank Coach Brian Keefe, Sharif Cooper, Juju Reese, Jameer Watkins, Alondra Williams, all the guys, they poured their heart out. All my old DC guys, John O'Redd, we'll go

• 4:06Speaker 01

  all the way back to Whiz Nuts. Shout out to Whiz Nuts, my guy, Dan Shanoff, Christian Dinesky, all of the old heads are so over the top with this one. We got our guy, we got the number one pick, and I'll humbly accept the number one selection today.

• 4:22Bill Simmons?

  Emotional stuff. Tate, they earned it. They went one for 24 in their last 25 with the net rating of minus 14.6. I think somewhere in there was the Bam Adebayo 83-point game.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:35Bill Simmons?

  Which was one of the most humiliating nights in the history of the NBA.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Thank you Bam.

• 4:39Bill Simmons?

  They traded for two expensive, uh, former superstars that just didn't play all year. Trey Young and Anthony Davis. Played it perfectly. Just, just a win from start to finish. 50 wins in the last three years, Tate, for the Wizards, and it's finally paid off.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:54Bill Simmons?

  Congratulations.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, worst record in the NBA. It kind of feels like they deserved it, right? Finally, we see the team with the worst record get the number one pick, so that was encouraging to see. And, uh, I just love Joe House. I mean, he's like out of breath right now as he gives us like his full breakdown.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Sweaty two hours today. Uh, can we talk about how the rig for this year was the anti-rig? The, the brilliance of Adam Silver? It was. The tremendous zag was that the teams with the worst records grabbed the, the top three picks. Now, the Brooklyn Nets were on the outside looking in, but when you did your karma rankings with, with Nick Wright, uh, magnificent as always, by the way.

• 5:32Bill Simmons?

  Thank you.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Uh, shout out Nick Wright. My buddy. We've never met, but we're friends. Um, you didn't have Brooklyn very high. You thought it was like, you know, did Brooklyn deserve the karma, right?

• 5:42Bill Simmons?

  I thought their first rounders were so stupid. Last year I had to deduct points. I just didn't understand anything they did. Yeah. When you think about it, and we'll talk about Indiana and the Clippers in a second, because that was the most momentous thing that happened, other than who got the number one pick. But for the most part, like Golden State didn't move up. Atlanta didn't get in the top four as a possible Giannis Suter. Um, nothing truly goofy happened. And you would think the league would want to take care of Indiana, a team that lost their best guy to a terrible Achilles injury in a game seven, and not give the fifth pick to the Clippers? But that's what happened. We have to talk about this. Why, I really want to dive in that Clipper thing. We have to talk about this Washington pick because it seems like AJ is the guy. I predicted this to you, Tate, two months ago.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:27Bill Simmons?

  I was just like, this is a rap. AJ is going to be the guy. And it seems like he's the guy.

• 6:32Bill Simmons?

  Couldn't help but mention, there was a look on his face after the lottery. There was a picture that got sent around about a half hour later where it looked like not just one of his dogs died, but like he had three dogs that he grew up with and they all died in the same explosion in the living room or something. Is, do you see a world where he doesn't go number one here? Whether either somebody trades into this spot or Washington says, screw it and takes Darren Peterson?

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it could be like a Chris Webber situation, right? Where like a team really loves him and they don't like the fit. So maybe they trade up to get him at number one. It does feel like Utah obviously has invested. I mean, I don't even know how many years, what, five years?

• 7:09Bill Simmons?

  Five years.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  Seven years. Yeah. You run the numbers about all the millions of dollars from the BYU NIL to when he went out there to play for high school. Like he's been in Utah for quite a long time. So I think in his mind, when he got to the final four, he's thinking, all right, Adam Silver, he cooked the books for me. I'm going to stay in Utah. I'm going to be a happy camper. This is going to be great. And then when number two popped up, you could just see it. He was like, oh, wow. This is real.

• 7:32Bill Simmons?

  He's like, where's Washington? Is that near Philly?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  I think it hit him in real time. I also saw a lot of people saying that he was like, you know, he's a very no nonsense, all business type of guy. So that was an all business response. I do think he had a little bit of like, oh, man, I'm not going to go to Utah. But it leads itself to a situation, we already texted about this. I mean, if you're Washington, maybe you call up, you know, and kind of see what they're willing to offer because obviously Utah is in love with him. There's also the other wrinkle where Carlos Boozer is a scout for Utah and obviously has his son in the top three.

• 8:04Bill Simmons?

  And played for the Jazz for a while.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  And played for the Jazz, right? So like there may be something where they're happy there at number two and they're going to get Cam Boozer, which means Peterson could even fall back to a three, four range, depending on what Memphis likes. So, I mean, I just think there's a lot of conversations to be had, which makes, you know, the one, two, three, four situation even more fun.

• 8:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, House and I, we've already kind of ruined the podcast with a bunch of texts about this already. And basically. As soon as it all settled down, it's like, all right, House, let's say Utah really wants that number one pick, you only have to drop down one spot and you could just take Darren Peterson and just make sure he doesn't put creatine in his creation drinks and creatine in his green juices and just stays away from creatine.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  It took him a long time to come up with that excuse, you know what I mean?

• 8:48Bill Simmons?

  It was a good one. I was like, you know what, I tried out the creatine a little bit and it really screwed me up.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's not for everybody.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  We've seen it happen in golf, Ben Griffin, he had too much creatine in one tournament, was losing his mind. So, I mean, it's happened before. We've seen it in sports.

• 9:04Bill Simmons?

  I recommended it to Kevin Wilds while I was, when I was trying it out and now I think he's still doing it. I think he's all in on it.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Well, maybe it works for him, but you know, the innovation for Peterson was to wait. He waited enough time for like the stink of how his season played out to deliver the excuse six, seven weeks. We're all done with March Madness. We're not thinking about Kansas basketball anymore. I have, here is what was going on. We knew that there was a true story. Somebody was going to give us the, so I admire the innovation.

• 9:36Bill Simmons?

  The revelation?

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. The one thing I will say, nobody with, the Wizards are not calling anybody, Tate. I mean, Tate said maybe the Wizards called. The Wizards are, the Wizards' phone is sitting here.

• 9:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they're taking AJ and you call them.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  If you want to call, the phone's right here. You can call. We'll listen. Why wouldn't we?

• 9:53Bill Simmons?

  You call Joe House or the front office?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  You can call.

• 9:56Bill Simmons?

  Just write to Joe House?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  I'll take the call. And you know, the funny thing is the threads, so from so many different sources, my phone's been buzzing relentlessly and it's been all these congratulations, but everybody is wondering out loud about Utah because, you know, they made that big investment in DeBansa and by they, I mean Ryan Smith and BYU made an economic investment in DeBansa being physically in at BYU, by BYU with the idea that he might, if the ping pong ball's bounced their way.

• 10:30Bill Simmons?

  Before then, House, they took him, they took him from Massachusetts.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:33Bill Simmons?

  And he went to prep school in Utah, ended up at BYU, and this has been a thing that's been going on.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:39Bill Simmons?

  I don't remember if it's four years or five years. And it was always like, wow, if they could ever get AJ, they're taking him. They're really familiar with him, the whole thing. It's weird. It's also weird. Somebody is this excited to go to Utah. We haven't had that a lot in the league in the last 50 years. Haven't been a lot of people, people panting to go to their house, but we, we were, I sent you all the picks Utah has. So Utah's been building all this stuff, hoping to do a 125 cents on the dollar type of trade. They have a swap with the Lakers next year. In 27, they have the best two of Minneapolis, Minnesota, Cleveland or Utah. They have a swap with Cleveland in 28. They can do the best two of Cleveland, Utah and Minnesota.

• 11:23Bill Simmons?

  And I'm saying two different, two of the best, two of the three, the top two. They have their own first, and then they have this really nice Phoenix first in 2031 house. Devin Booker will be like 34 years old, making 80 million dollars on top of some other guys they have. So my thing is like, if I, like, let's say they come to you and they give you two of those picks. They give you like Sensabaugh and they give you number two, just to move up one spot and you take Darren Peterson. Like, are you sweating that?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  No, no, two of those picks. I, I was wondering if the offer, if I was being too greedy. I'm looking for something like Ace Bailey, the number two and, and one of those.

• 12:01Bill Simmons?

  The other way it could go. One of those future firsts. Ace Bailey and number two to move up to one?

• 12:06Speaker 01

  No, no, I need one of those future firsts as well and one of those.

• 12:09Bill Simmons?

  Ace Bailey looked pretty good. Tate, didn't Ace Bailey want to go there last year?

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was what he was angling. That's what a lot of people thought that his agent was trying to get him to go there. So, yeah.

• 12:18Bill Simmons?

  I mean, honestly, Ace Bailey and two for one is a lot. Cause I thought Ace looked good last year. I don't know if I would do that if I was Utah. My thing is I would trade back just because we've been arguing about which of these four guys are going to be the best guy for four months. And I don't even know if we have an answer. Tate, where'd you land?

• 12:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I do think that AJ is number one. I feel comfortable with AJ, right? He wants to be the number one pick. That's the number one test. Do you want to be the number one pick? AJ obviously wants to be the number one pick. Peterson has worked his way through the media with these exclusive interviews to put out that he also obviously is willing to be the number one pick. I thought the interviews at the, what an awkward TV experience that is at the lottery, by the way, with like everyone.

• 12:56Bill Simmons?

  Can we talk about this?

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, please.

• 12:58Bill Simmons?

  So you have a half hour. You have a half hour. You're ESPN. You have a half hour for the lottery. And then the next game starts. You spend the first 15 minutes having awkward interviews with the people sitting there, showing all the representatives and then doing the same ping pong ball video they show every year. The lottery happens. Four massive things happen in the lottery and they just throw it right to the game. And it's like, what are you guys doing? Like, how could you have handled this worse? Like, I would have had the lottery at three and then 15 minutes of discourse. Anyway, go on. So we both had AJ. We both think AJ should be the first pick. But I wouldn't, it's not like a Wemby situation where you wouldn't bet your life he's going to be the best player in 10 years from this draft.

• 13:42Bill Simmons?

  It could be any of these four guys, right?

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think you can talk yourself. I mean, I've seen boards that have Boozer at number one, right? That seems like he's the safest of the four picks.

• 13:51Bill Simmons?

  Hollinger had him one.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, Hollinger had him one, which is, you know, I think it's a fair point because if you look at Boozer's record, right? He's won at every single level. Obviously, he was national player of the year this year. You like the way that he carries himself. He is going to be a really good player at the next level. I think Caleb Wilson, obviously, is tantalizing. I know you don't like the hairstyle that he had there at the.

• 14:11Bill Simmons?

  Ambitious, ambitious hair.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  I think he cleans it up and I think he's going to be all right. But I mean, just the high flyer. And Sean Kemp has been thrown out there. KG has been thrown out there. Obviously, McGrady a little bit. I also think I see a lot of people with Caleb at the four. I think he's going to end up being a wing. I think he's going to end up being a three. So I think he's one of those guys. Yeah, I just think he has the athleticism to be out there. Maybe they slot him down at the four, you know, at some level, but I think Caleb's obviously in that conversation. Then Peterson, I saw Peterson in person at the Kansas Carolina game in the fall. And I mean, he didn't even have a great night, but I mean, he puts up 24 points with ease. And you're just like, man, this guy is so smooth, so easy. And obviously, the McDonald's All American game, you saw a lot of people defer to him just because of he, you know, just the way he carries himself. He calls himself Michael Myers of basketball, right?

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Like, I kind of like that, even though he's a little bit of a weirdo. I think that might be a good thing. We told him, we said he was the Kawhi of guards. So again, you can kind of argue.

• 15:04Bill Simmons?

  The Kawhi of Guards house.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I could take the Kawhi of Guards. I'm not sure. He didn't show enough Michael Myers. He wasn't enough of a killer this season.

• 15:12Bill Simmons?

  I think AJ should be, I think AJ should be first. But I also feel like if you end up with Peterson and more stuff, that's a nice place to be. And we've talked about this before when Tate and Kyle Man were on, but the Peterson High School tape is out of control. It's out of control. I mean, he looks like he's going to be Kobe Bryant when you watch the stuff. And I thought seemed like he had a little too much weight this year and we were talking, it just felt like he could never get going this season, which of course makes you nervous to take him one. But it also feels like he could just be spectacular.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  It also feels like he didn't want to learn the college game. I mean, I know that's a little bit banal, but I just feel like it's such a different sport. It was just like, all right, I'll just skip this stage.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  I totally agree, Tate, that what he showed us body language wise, attitude wise is my single goal is to not get hurt. I will do this thing that is a required step. I will fulfill the requirement. Present? Present. He raises his hand. Are you here, Mr. Peterson is here? He's present. And that's it. Get me the F out of here. I want to go be a pro basketball player. And here we are.

• 16:20Bill Simmons?

  The VP of Common Sense would be a little nervous about the Wizards taking a guy who's already had major cramping issues and questions about his demeanor and his body.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  You're talking about the old Wizards.

• 16:30Bill Simmons?

  Gilbert Arenas.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Those are the old Wizards. That's not this Wizards. That's old stuff.

• 16:36Bill Simmons?

  I don't know how.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Bringing up the past. We're in the present, baby.

• 16:39Bill Simmons?

  One of the things I love about the Bantas, there's just no way, like, he's already built like a 28 year old man. And I don't even know what his body's going to look like, you know, five, six years from now. But he's just got, there's some, there's some interesting stuff with him. There's some defensive metrics that aren't great with them. Hollinger pointed to, like for how athletic he is. Why isn't more stuff happening on that end? But I just, to me, he feels like the perfect kind of, he could play the three, play the four. He's physical, he rebounds, he, you know, I think he's really competitive. He really wanted to be the number one pick. I think that matters, House. And if you drafted him and he actually could talk himself into going there.

• 17:20Bill Simmons?

  I just feel like it's a set thing. You know what it is? I don't know what the variance of it being bad. I don't really see.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  With the bands. No, no, no, no. That's why you're the ceiling with him feels like to me. The highest ceiling, just acknowledging that Caleb Wilson is a more of an unknown quantity because the injury limited how much we got to see him against the the highest comp. And especially in March Madness, where you really get a chance to see like, okay, these are stakes. The guys are ramped up. Let's see it. So we were deprived of that with with Wilson. But I feel like ceiling wise, the bands is that it's all the whole thing. And he will definitely be cool with being here in Washington.

• 18:03Bill Simmons?

  AJ Strong. There's we've had we've had some more luck lately with nickname acronym acronym first names.

• 18:12Bill Simmons?

  Dare I say, if he comes in right away, and I think Tate, he's a 30 minutes a game guy next year, right? In the NBA?

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%.

• 18:21Bill Simmons?

  I think he could be like a 15 and eight, like a 16 and eight, something like that. Is that conceivable?

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And if you look at the front court with Washington, that's a fun front court, like as far as size. You know what I mean? Like those three guys.

• 18:32Bill Simmons?

  You put him and him and Sar and Anthony Davis with Trey Young and George and how long Trey Johnson like that's kind of a team.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  The floor is VJ Edgecombe. I think what we got out of Edgecombe this year for a guy that showed up ready.

• 18:47Bill Simmons?

  Playing big minutes. Yeah.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, ready. And he took that team. He more than any other player on that team. Transformed what they were going to be capable of for this entire season. It will, you know, when we did the dumb October, what the hell is Philly going to be? We had no idea. We knew how excited they were about Edgecombe. But he showed up and within two weeks, it's like, oh, look at this backcourt. They have Maxi and Edgecombe and it it it resuscitated the fan base. And if we get anything, I think that's the floor for DeBansa. Now, maybe that maybe, you know, I'm I'm high on my supply right now, baby, but.

• 19:24Bill Simmons?

  We like Sar.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:25Bill Simmons?

  There's, you know, the some of the metrics of them were pretty bad, but I like them.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  I know his shop blocking stuff. That's what you want. Threes and shop blocking.

• 19:34Bill Simmons?

  All right, we'll get back to Washington because number two is Utah. Washington had a 52% chance to be in the top four and Utah was at 45. Won a crucial coin flip. I don't know if you guys know, they had a coin flip with Sacramento to decide who was four and who was five and who got which set of things and that ended up getting them the second pick. Danny Ainge, who I'm intimately familiar with as a guy that ran my team forever and just the way he thinks, he always goes for superstar ceiling. He's always, if, if he feels like somebody has a chance to be great, he's going to take that guy and he's not going to care where it is in the draft. Like he was the one guy that would have taken Durant over Oden.

• 20:18Bill Simmons?

  It's just that, that's just how he rolls. Tate, is it possible he'll look at the high school stuff from Peterson? He'll throw away the Kansas year and be like, this guy's Kobe Bryant? We gotta take him?

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's a high chance just because, I mean, I think a lot of times the college tape is just like additive. It's not the, the definitive case. And I think a lot of times for fans, it is the definitive case because that's what most people see. They don't see all the stuff beforehand. They've seen these kids since they were 16 years old. And obviously Danny Ainge was there the last time the number one pick was traded and Markel Fultz, and there was a lot of people that, you know, were a little upset in the moment that that happened. And then it turned out to be one of the best trades ever for Boston to be able to get Tatum there at number three. So he's been there, he's done that, he's seen that. And I think with Peterson, it just sort of depends on how he interviews maybe with Ainge and if Ainge likes the fit. But I just think it could be tantalizing with that.

• 21:06Bill Simmons?

  It's gonna be a boring interview. I'll tell you that much from what we see from Peterson.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  But maybe he likes that, you know?

• 21:12Bill Simmons?

  I don't think he'll be talking about his favorite podcasts and some books he's read lately.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  It's not gonna be like Tom Canip, you know what I mean?

• 21:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's another one. Look, he fits in with the team they have. Cause now they have Jaren Jackson, they have Markkinen. You know, they have Kessler who's coming back.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 21:31Bill Simmons?

  They got a great, great year from their young point guard. What they're actually missing is a two guard and a scorer and like a closer.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Which that's what he played at Kansas. He played, he played the two.

• 21:42Bill Simmons?

  Right. So House, maybe they're just happy, happy, maybe this all, cause there's a world where you just look at the board and you go, Washington, happy to take the Bansa. Utah, super excited to take Darren Peterson. Memphis, couldn't be happier to have Cam Boozer. Like the most Memphis pick ever. And then Chicago like, sure, we'll take Caleb Wilson. And that's just how it goes, right?

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Boozer's kind of a grown up, you know what I mean? Just feels like a guy that's not going to have any sort of issues. You can make him a franchise type guy. Cedric Coward fits in well with him.

• 22:11Bill Simmons?

  Green Grizzlies. Yeah, they're back.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  It works.

• 22:14Bill Simmons?

  I could see that. You agree with that, House?

• 22:15Speaker 01

  I sure do. And especially Peterson's athleticism at the pro level and him with, and Ace Bailey, like, there is something there in Utah that you could point to and say, you know, let's go ahead and see if we can win some games. Well, I think that team, because, uh, you know, that poor coach, um, that, that, you know.

• 22:36Bill Simmons?

  Will Hardy.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, Will Hardy. We haven't seen him really get to cook. He only gets to cook every once in a while. He cooks through three quarters and then, and then he has to turn the oven off, uh, for the last two years.

• 22:49Bill Simmons?

  He was going to be cooking meth if he had to push that team for three more years.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  Breaking bad, yeah.

• 22:53Bill Simmons?

  It really was. He was losing his mind probably. But I mean, they got lucky last year with Ace.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:59Bill Simmons?

  That they, Ace tried to do that stare down and get them to go to Washington. They just stared him down like you're coming here.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  Agent video, one of the classic draft videos. Yeah.

• 23:07Bill Simmons?

  Right. But they've never moved up in a lottery, I don't think in the history of the franchise until, until this draft. So Peterson, I would assume, but I'm telling you, man, if Danny watches enough Caleb Wilson is just like, this guy's, this guy's the next Giannis. We're taking him. Like they'll take him at two. He, he gives zero fucks. I know their process, like it's, there's never leaks with Danny because he'd always takes him a while to figure out who he likes. His also, his son's running the team and obviously the owner is going to have a say. There's a bunch of people involved, but Danny's going to be the Yoda of this situation. I think from a fun NBA standpoint, the Bansa one, and then Peterson go to Utah two is fun. Boozer at three. And then we don't think Memphis will trade that pick or anything. And then.

• 23:53Bill Simmons?

  You know, Chicago, just hilarious. They're gonna actually end up with a fun team to spite themselves and it will go nowhere near the luxury tax, but they'll play with pace. They have, uh, Taylor Jenkins went there and with Wilson, the only question I have, Tate, there's no chance he drops to five, right?

• 24:11Speaker 02

  I just think that anything is possible with the Bulls, you know? I could totally see the Bulls like having

• 24:17Bill Simmons?

  Cause Wagner's from Illinois.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 24:19Bill Simmons?

  That's like not, not, nothing.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  In their backyard, they talk themselves into Wagner, great passing vision, all that sort of stuff. And then somehow Caleb Wilson falls to the Los Angeles Clippers and gets to work under Kawhi Leonard, a guy who I think, you know, as far as the hand size, I think is a little bit similar. And I think it would be a perfect kind of tutelage situation where he could learn under and Ty Lou obviously doesn't really lean on the rookies too much, but it could be a good situation and a good spot for Caleb Wilson. But the Bulls, I mean, I know they just got a new, you know, kind of front office situation. So maybe, but at the end of the day, the ownership is the ownership and they've, you know, done some things in the past that are head scratching and that could happen yet again there at number four.

• 24:55Bill Simmons?

  Or not done some things.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Let me ask, ask you guys this and we'll have a chance to talk to Verno as this all plays out.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Oh yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Memphis strikes me as a team that might be more inclined to take a swing on Caleb Wilson rather than the, the tried and true steady Cam Boozer. Cause like, does Cam Boozer move the needle for, for Memphis? I mean, they have an interesting little nucleus. There is still yet whatever they resolve with Ja, whatever assets they get back, but they're still super in transition. They're not a team that's going to be looking to try and win, I don't think 45 games next year, right? They don't have the roster for that. Um, so if, if, if Caleb fits like that way where Cedric Coward is, like you're, you're just building a really athletic, uh, kind of front court situation.

• 25:40Bill Simmons?

  A little Memphis-y. Boozer dropping to four would be out of control.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Well, that's why I'm asking Tate, like,

• 25:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's like, he's just feels like, I don't know what his ceiling is, whether he's ever going to make a first team NBA or anything like that. And I probably like him a whiff less than others, but I still feel like it's like he's getting guaranteed. 22 and 10 guy, you know.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Total stud.

• 26:01Bill Simmons?

  And he'll be super competitive.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's always produced. I mean, I think that's the real thing with Cam Boozer, where you almost talk yourself out of it, even though it's right there in front of you. And you're like, he's gonna be an all star, you know, he's gonna be a guy that's in that conversation. So I really, I think VinFish just plays it safe there. But I like what you're saying, how it's like high IQ, transition type team, coward Caleb Wilson, that could be a fun combo.

• 26:23Bill Simmons?

  I could, I wonder if Wilson could just single hit the rejuvenate Ja Morant. Well, you look at Chicago, if Wilson falls to Chicago at four, and for the people listening who haven't really followed this draft, Boozer is like the steady 22 and 10, really knows how to play the game. He's just gonna elevate wherever he is. And Caleb Wilson is like the wild card who got hurt before March Madness. All time incredible college athlete, like just nuts. Like, he feels like he came out of like the five slam and jam era. And there's like pieces of Sean Kemp, Tate mentioned Tracy McGrady a little bit. He doesn't have the three point shot yet. There's feels like there could be a little, little chat, maybe

• 27:04Bill Simmons?

  defensively, if he could ever figure out that side of it as like a four. I know the defensive stats weren't awesome for him. But, but I'm looking at Chicago with Giddy and Kobe White and Aya Desunmu. Oh, no, they don't have two of those three guys.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  I got excited for a second. I'm like, wait a second, what is going on?

• 27:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, now they don't have those guys.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Think about that, though. Matas and Caleb.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, Booze Ellis and Caleb.

• 27:32Bill Simmons?

  Who's not getting just his minutes yanked around by Billy Donovan anymore. All right, we're gonna take a break. And we're gonna come back and talk about the number five pick, which became one of the most fascinating things that has happened in the recent history of the lottery after this. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. It's been a wild playoff run, not over yet. FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make all of that action come to life for you, the basketball fan. FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players, plays during NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout, or try live betting and jump into the action right after tip off, whatever you want. That's the whole point of live betting. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now.

• 28:17Bill Simmons?

  Play your game. 21 plus select states or 18 plus DC Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat. Connecticut. This episode is brought to by Michelob Ultra. You know what my favorite thing about the playoffs is? I like during and it's usually maybe a game four, might even be a game five, game seven. Everyone's nervous. There's a different level of energy, but game four, game five for one of the two teams. There's this realization with like five minutes left in the fourth quarter. What's like, oh, our fate is is suddenly in real flux right now. Who's stepping up? What are we going to do? Let's calm down.

• 29:00Bill Simmons?

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• 29:41Bill Simmons?

  See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines and prices and details. Clippers make this crazy trade for with Zubots to the Pacers.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 29:53Bill Simmons?

  And it's top five protected or top four protected. And at that point, it looks like the Pacers are going to be the worst team in the league. Cool. There's a second first round pick of that. Oh, one Joe House is back.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're back.

• 30:05Bill Simmons?

  Joe House. All right.

• 30:08Bill Simmons?

  Indy goes four and 21 in their last 25. The Wizards go one and 24. Indy lost 16 straight and somehow didn't end up with the first spot. Falls back three spots, gets jumped, loses the pick for Zubats. And this fifth pick is no joke, Tate, because we move with the fifth pick. There's a second tier of guys. Wogler, we mentioned. Acuff, who might be a next Kyrie for all we know. Burries is in there. People love Flemings. This is like a potential all NBA someday guard. And Indy just doesn't have the pick now because they traded for Zubats. Just a staggering kick in the balls. An all-timer.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's an all-timer. Can you put your conspiracy hat on here, Bill, and talk about this? Because obviously.

• 30:56Bill Simmons?

  I don't think by the hat, I don't, there's no conspiracy, right?

• 31:00Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm just saying ABA wise, right? The Pacers, do you think there's a little bit of like, they'll never let the Pacers get what they deserve? Because they're an ABA team? That's where I'm going here. I'm just like.

• 31:11Bill Simmons?

  Never even thought of that. They've never won the lottery.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:13Bill Simmons?

  I like that conspiracy.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Well, can we talk about the protection? That's the thing. The protection is the thing.

• 31:23Bill Simmons?

  They basically made it seem like, hey, there's four players we love in this draft. But that's not how you can think. Because if you end up with the fifth pick and you have to give it away, nobody in the planet would trade Zubats for the fifth pick in this draft. I don't think they would trade him for the sixth, seventh, or eighth picks, honestly. But yeah, they took this chance with the percentages, Tate. And what happens? They get screwed and now they have no pick. And for the Clippers, this is a miracle.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's amazing.

• 31:51Bill Simmons?

  Literally a miracle.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's amazing. And then obviously, there's a lot of like, you know, I think this is Pablo Torres nightmare. Shout out to Pablo. This is, he did not want to see this. The Clippers getting some sort of, you know, pat on the back. Yeah, they got something. It's basically their number one pick, right? I mean, they were able to, they knew what it was. Okay, House has got video again. That's good. So that happens. Also, you had, I think it was the president of basketball operations for the Pacers kind of put out a tweet to all the fans.

• 32:17Bill Simmons?

  Kevin Pritchard.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Kevin Pritchard was just like, I'm so sorry that this happened. We thought that we had good juju on our side. Turns out we didn't. That's never good when you see that as a fan of the Pacers and uh, you know, we talked about like that would be the perfect spot for like a Peterson or Caleb Wilson or a Boozer, one of these guys to kind of slot into this Pacers team that can make a real run as a title contender. And now we're talking about the Clippers and and then being able to get the fifth pick. And then, I mean, you could talk yourself into Acuff pretty easily there at number five. And I think that would be a big swing and a nice pickup for Ballmer and the Clippers.

• 32:48Bill Simmons?

  So it's funny. I think they would take Wagler because uh, because he's 6'6".

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:55Bill Simmons?

  Like Acuff's a-

• 32:56Speaker 02

  Big guard.

• 32:56Bill Simmons?

  House, I love Acuff, obviously. But you have, there is Garland already, and I think they really like Garland. Like, he had some real juice when he showed up. That if you loved Acuff, I think you'd have to trade Garland, which would get a little complicated. But don't you think Wagler could play with Garland? It's not ideal, but he can play on or off the ball and he's six foot six, has some size, like-

• 33:18Speaker 02

  Has the shooting.

• 33:19Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Yeah, I, I feel like he could do that, right?

• 33:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think it, it fits as far as like those two guys being able to play together. It's not redundant at any point. And um, you know, there's a team that's sitting there at number seven that I know that loves Acuff and probably would be willing to trade up potentially, uh, if you feel good about them wanting him so bad to get there at number five. And maybe you get some more, the Kings really want Acuff. I think that's pretty much a known entity at this point. So if they're willing to move up, um, that could be something there where you could get even more assets from a franchise that's a little bit desperate. So, but I, I really like Wagler. The only time that we saw Wagler struggle is when Yaxel Linderborg pretty much locked him up on defense. And he's five years older than him. So I mean, I think there's going to be some growing pains, but he'll get there eventually.

• 34:03Bill Simmons?

  House, I had this in my notes with Sacramento. If you're the Clippers, you could just move back two spots and take Burris seven.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 34:12Bill Simmons?

  And also you get to trade with Sacramento, which has been one of the most foolproof ways to get better over the last 40 years and pick up a future pick from them. I would think about that because Burris, I like, I, as you guys know, I love Burris, but um, but if you're staying at five, I think you, I think Wagler has to be the pick.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Both of those are tremendous options for, for the Clippers and it is proof positive that karma is on the Clippers side, even in the face, even in the face of all of the great circumvention, allegation, navigation, somehow or another, the karma landed in a certain way. I suspect that the league is going to land in the same place, which is we are gonna get on Clippers basketball.

• 35:04Bill Simmons?

  Cause the worst case scenario here is they decide horrible things happen and they just wipe the, wipe the, we lost house again, wipe the, they just wipe the Clippers pick away, the number five pick. And that's that. Um, I had a, I had a doozy for you guys. Well, first of all, the Clips turned Zubots, who I didn't even think was playing that well this year, and Harden, who didn't want to be there anymore, into Garland and the fifth pick in this draft. So that's just amazing.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  And Matherin.

• 35:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And Matherin, if they end up resigning him.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 35:39Bill Simmons?

  They have two paths now because they could potentially trade Kawhi and trade Garland and just blow it up and try to rebuild around young guys. They could also swing the other way and make a Giannis play here.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 35:52Bill Simmons?

  Because they're gonna have some cap space. They have the fifth pick, which I think is attractive and um, there might be a way to send that and make that the focal point of some sort of trade. Um, and take Giannis' thing on and try to keep Kawhi and Garland and build around those three. Does that excite you at all?

• 36:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, it excites me. I just want Giannis to be safe. I want Giannis to go somewhere. You were talking with Nick Wright about the Hawks and just, you know, if they get that top four pick and trying to package away where Jalen ended up going to Atlanta and maybe, you know, Giannis ends up going to Boston. I thought that was a tasty idea that I thought that, you know, I started putting that together in my brain. I'm like, that makes sense. It's kind of a win-win for everybody. This has obviously played out a little bit differently here, but if you're Milwaukee, I mean, I felt bad for, you know, shout out to Mallory Eden sitting there, you know, at the number 10 pick. It just looked like, you know, it was like Warriors, Bucks, like some of those teams on the back. Back in that maybe they slot in and were able to.

• 36:43Bill Simmons?

  I never, yeah, none of them hit this year.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  None of them hit. So I mean, this is a way for them to be able to get something for the future. That gives them a little bit of optimism and also saves Giannis because I'm tired of seeing Giannis be wasted. You know, after 2021, I thought we were going to have like, wow, Giannis could end up being the greatest power forward ever. And it has really derailed, you know, over the past three seasons. Obviously injuries are involved and then the coaching. Shout out to Doc Rivers. I think he tried his best to make things happen, but great BS podcast guy. Glad he's back on the pod. We need him here.

• 37:14Bill Simmons?

  It all worked out. He's back where he belongs on the, on the pod every once in a while.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  And if Giannis goes to Clippers, that's great for the league too.

• 37:21Bill Simmons?

  Giannis going to the Clippers and being in Los Angeles with Kawhi, who's on a similar window of, I think. You know, how many more years is he going to have with Garland and they could patch around. They've been really good at building veterans around there. You know, one of the outcomes of today was it feels like it really improved the Celtics chances to get Giannis. If that's what they want to do, because you saw Atlanta, who ended up in the eight spot. But that was a team that if they moved into the top four, I feel like they would have been in play for Giannis potentially. Golden State was another one. If Milwaukee had gotten up there with Atlanta and somehow both ended up in the top four. Maybe they keep Giannis at that point, but none of that stuff happened. So I would say the Celtics are probably.

• 38:06Bill Simmons?

  Probably the favorite at this point to get Giannis unless Dallas got aggressive, but I don't really know what the other team would be. Can you think of any? You're Charlotte. No, right?

• 38:16Speaker 02

  No, I just don't think Giannis is going to be happy there. And then the Heat is basically just like Milwaukee South. Yeah, you just trade spots with them at that point. I don't think that really works out. And as far as like the narrative of Giannis' career, you get Boston behind you. You kind of get the media, the cha, you know what I mean? Like you could really, you could really change the whole conversation about who you are as a player. Because like the numbers tell a great story about Giannis, you know what I mean? And like what he was able to do in 2021, you add in two more titles and you do it in Boston. And you're kind of like the, the one A and Jason Tatum, you know, coming off injury is kind of like, you know, I wouldn't say one B. But let's just say Giannis ends up being the guy there. I just think it's a great story for a narrative purpose.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  And I do think Giannis, I know he turned his nose up to being the face of the league and I think that was a bad move in general. But I think that can really salvage everything as far as like the Giannis story.

• 39:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's in that where the KG 2007 spot, only he has the title, but wants this next act and it's time to leave the team he's on. Still, maybe Golden State would be the other one. I mean, Golden State's at 11.

• 39:22Bill Simmons?

  And they have the Butler expiring, but I, unless they just gave the rest of their drafts in a way to get him. I don't know how that excites Milwaukee. Milwaukee's gonna want something back.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, Jimmy Marquette guy goes back to Milwaukee.

• 39:36Bill Simmons?

  I know, but he's hurt, you know?

• 39:37Speaker 02

  There's no, there's no real sell there.

• 39:39Bill Simmons?

  And if you get Jalen back, you're getting a, a guy who's gonna be second team all NBA, but you're putting him on a bad team. Maybe he'd like that. I don't even know. Or he's in a three teamer.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  I don't know what he likes after.

• 39:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, who knows? He's all over the place. He had his favorite year of his career, but there were different reasons for it. Can you walk us through five, six, seven with Wogler and Acuff and Flemings and Burris? And then it gets a little weird. And then somehow Filon has just gotten pushed back when I feel like maybe he, he could be the guy that jumps. Is there, in that whole order, is there anybody you think is in the wrong spot?

• 40:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a cluster of guards and Mikel Brown Jr. Was sort of the guy that I thought was the guy at number five going into the season. He had his own version of a Darren Peterson situation where he had the back spasms and Louisville fans and kind of the people around the team were a little upset about him not being able to play. And there was some kind of back channeling that was happening there, but I still think Mikel Brown Jr. Has a lot of upside. So I think he could be one of those guys that ends up being a steal if you get him at eight, nine, 10 range. Let's say the Hawks get him at eight. I think that's a really nice pickup for them. I like Wogler at five. I think Darius Acuff is the most explosive and like the guy that could really become a superstar. I mean, you even saw when they did the graphic on ESPN, the top four picks, they cut out Caleb Wilson and put Acuff.

• 40:54Bill Simmons?

  I couldn't believe that. Was that the Jay Billis list or that wasn't the ESPN list? That was just the Jay Billis only list.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  I think it was a Billis list and that's why they did that, but I, for me personally, like knowing Caleb a little bit, I do think that Caleb is almost better when he's disrespected. Like if Caleb were to go number one, I would actually be concerned, but Caleb going number four, number five, I feel like that's the best case scenario for his career. Cause he kinda, he's like at the. MJ thing where he like needs gripes with people to kind of fire himself up. So I think that Acuff going at five would be great. Burries is a little bit older, but it just kind of feels like a surefire guard that you can trust even off ball at times if you need him to be there. Phylon.

• 41:32Bill Simmons?

  And we know what he is. Burries is, we know he's a two.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, he, he's a two. And I think he's obviously showed a lot at Arizona last year and a really, really good scorer and player. Phylon's an electric scorer. But honestly, of that group, I feel like Mikel Brown Jr. Is the guy to me that gets me excited. You know what I mean? That could end up being a guard.

• 41:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because on some lists, he's in double figures.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:55Bill Simmons?

  In some of the mock drafts.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  I'm kind of shocked that, I mean, I know a mint fell for, for, you know, a myriad of reasons. I know Mikel Brown fell for some of the stuff I mentioned with the injuries. But if you've watched Mikel Brown when he's on, he is really, really good and he's got the size.

• 42:09Bill Simmons?

  Who would you compare him to?

• 42:11Speaker 02

  That's a good question. I'm, I'm trying to think, I mean, he's kind of, I mean, he's bigger. That's the other part. I think he's physically bigger. I mean, I mean, Drew Holiday, maybe a little bit potentially, you know, a Nim Hard.

• 42:24Bill Simmons?

  But you think he's that kind of defensive player?

• 42:26Speaker 02

  I think he could get there. I think he's offensively great. I just think that Mikel Brown Jr. Has a lot of upside. And I just think that I, the more I see him fall, the more I'm just like, if you're in the eight to 12 range, because I think 12 is the line. Like when, when things go bad is at 12. I think that's when you're like, you know, in OKC getting 12, I'm fascinated to see like, do they just take a swing on a Bennett Sturts? Do they take a acquaintance? Like who is that player that the Thunder go for? We're all like, oh, of course. They take Steinbach from Washington and he turns into Detlef Shrimp 2.0. You know what I mean? Like who, who is the play there at 12? But as far as that clutter of guards, I think they all have different kind of traits that you could fall in love with. But I, I'm like a Wogler Acuff first, and then from there, you know, you can kind of pick which one you fancy.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  But Mikel Brown, I, I'm, I'm excited to see what he looks like.

• 43:13Bill Simmons?

  So Acuff, if he goes to Brooklyn at six.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  The Kings will be sick.

• 43:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, they don't have their 27, uh, Phoenix, Phoenix or Houston. One of them can switch, Houston can switch with them.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 43:29Bill Simmons?

  So they kind of have to be good next year, right? A Cuff is an investment in somebody that you're hoping, you know, can be pretty special. Who knows if he's, it's pretty rare for a point guard to come into the league and be awesome right away. And I, you know, there's, there's some feeling and some feedback about the Nets. That they might want to say, fuck it. Let's, let's get, we're tired of the lottery just didn't work out for us two years in a row. Right? We tried to, tried to game this system twice. Each time we got screwed, let's just trade the pick for a star. I'm going to read you some names.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 44:04Bill Simmons?

  Uh, sadly, I, I think House might be dead.

• 44:08Speaker 02

  I'm honestly, a part of my.

• 44:09Bill Simmons?

  They're getting it fixed.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're getting it fixed. A part of my mind is concerned about House right now. I think he's on too much of a high.

• 44:14Bill Simmons?

  I think maybe, maybe the DA.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  Bloody Mary's hit.

• 44:19Bill Simmons?

  Maybe he put something in his Bloody Marys and the, the drug police came. Um, Paolo Bencaro for the six pick. That feels like a no for Orlando. I'm just giving you some guys.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Okay. I think it's a no, but I mean, Paolo would say yes.

• 44:35Bill Simmons?

  Right? Well, but I guess for Orlando, it's like, we're way over the tax. We get to reboot a little bit. I, that's a no, I'm just, I'm just listing names. Don't get mad at me.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 44:44Bill Simmons?

  People watching. Jalen Williams on OKC.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 44:49Bill Simmons?

  Um, which would allow OKC to get out of all this money stuff that they have coming. They could grab, you know, somebody awesome at six. I don't think they would trade Jalen Williams for six. If we're, if we're moving the top three, that becomes a different story. But six now crossing him off. Mobley gets a little more interesting. Especially if Cleveland gets bounced in five. And we've seen Mobley kind of level off and just be an 18, nine guy. And Cleveland's way over the tax and could they just reset this? You let Harden go, maybe you trade Mitchell and this is just a complete reset.

• 45:28Bill Simmons?

  Jamal Murray at 15 was the most fun one. Where you just put a cuff on Denver and you put Jamal Murray on Brooklyn, you have a vet. Giannis has to be mentioned. I don't know why he would go to Brooklyn if nobody was there. And then the only other one that's like Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brown, I don't see how that makes sense for Brooklyn.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, the, the Palo one is the one that got my attention the most.

• 45:51Bill Simmons?

  Oh, interesting.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, just because, I mean, the Palo thing just is fascinating. I know they got to figure out the coach. I mean, you got the Wagner situation. I know Orlando would be sick to hear that, but I, I, I'm just fascinated by him because he can turn it on. And when he does turn it on, you're like, oh yeah, there he is. There's the franchise, you know, top 10 potential player. And then there's times where he's a little bit off and I don't know, he's, he's a fascinating situation. I also feel like all the Giannis examples outside of Boston or the Clippers, as we've mentioned, it just feels like, well, you know, Will Smith and Fresh Prince. When he's in the room by himself, you know, it's like, how many, how many of those situations can we send Giannis into? I would feel bad for him if that were to happen again.

• 46:29Bill Simmons?

  And how many years does he have left?

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 46:32Bill Simmons?

  Like if you're trading for him, what are you actually getting back? Sacramento at seven, I think they just take whatever point guards left. They don't have a point guard.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Hmm, I think they're gonna try to trade up. I think they're gonna try to get the five and get a cuff. I really do.

• 46:46Bill Simmons?

  Wow. I mean, that would be a godsend for the Clippers.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 46:49Bill Simmons?

  You end up with this weird trade you made. Somehow you get the fifth pick. You move backwards to get seven and for Burris, who you probably would have wanted anyway. And then you get more assets and you traded with Sacramento. There's no way that doesn't work. Atlanta is another one that I think could trade up if they got excited about a point guard. They're also a team, Jalen's from Atlanta and that, that has to be mentioned.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:12Bill Simmons?

  If this was a straight up Jalen Dyson Daniels and a contract and the eighth pick, like whatever that is.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  How much do you think that's possible to happen at this point with, with Jalen Brown? I mean, cause we, you know, you guys were talking about, I mean, he is so smart and cerebral. And I do feel like some of this stuff is targeted and pointed on purpose, you know?

• 47:31Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Is he kind of sent the message himself that he's like, I would be interested in something like that? Cause otherwise.

• 47:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, you've, you've been following sports long enough now. He's doing the thing where there's just mixed signals anywhere and it's hard to tell whether he just wants everybody to be talking about him. Or whether he actually wants to leave, or whether he actually wants to stay. And there's, there's kind of, I, there's no way you're just trying to grab it all over the map, trying to see what's happening and you have no idea.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:01Bill Simmons?

  And I honestly don't know, like, somebody asked me for percentages of if I thought Jalen was gonna be in the Celtics next year and I was like, I don't know, 50/50?

• 48:08Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 48:09Bill Simmons?

  It feels like, it feels like a coin flip.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  He also won a finals, like, it'd be one thing if he, you know, when they won the championship, he did not win conference finals MVP and finals MVP. I mean, he got those. I thought that would be the end of the whole thing. I'm, I'm very confused by it. Also, I'm so sad that we didn't get, you know, the Knicks Celtics series after watching what the Sixers showed out.

• 48:28Bill Simmons?

  I know.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  I mean, my god, yeah.

• 48:30Bill Simmons?

  Jesus Christ.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  We hadn't even talked about that.

• 48:33Bill Simmons?

  No. Well, quickly in the ladder, Atlanta's eight. Dallas is nine. And they have Kyrie coming back and Burris would be the dream Dallas guy here, right?

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Yep. Pair him next to him.

• 48:44Bill Simmons?

  Not positive he's gonna get all the way to nine, but that's like, oh my god, what a homerun, putting him next to Flag. There's a really fun version of how this ladder, the only problem is I can't figure out what Atlanta would take. I assume at eight, they would take a point guard. Milwaukee's just taking whoever the highest ceiling guy is left because they're gonna be in a rebuild at 10. And then, can you walk me through Yaxel at Golden State at number 11? Because that just seems like everyone's just gonna pencil him in there. Can he go higher than that? He's gonna be 24.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know Kyle Man had him, I think, eight or seven or eight on his big board. And Yaxel is one of those guys where he is older, which makes sense for Golden State, right? It's a team that is obviously a very old team. And I know Draymond just had that moment with Barkley talking about, Barkley's like, old teams don't win anymore. So I, you know, it's a young man's game. But I think Yaxel, my only issue with him going to Golden State is yes, he is older, but like, the maturity is not older, like, his maturation does not match the age. And I do feel like, you know, you bring in another Michigan guy with Draymond, Michigan State guy, Kerr just resigned the extension and sort of running it back. Like, you don't want to recreate a whole situation and a whole problem again where Steve Kerr's Like, am I like, where am I? I'm in the Twilight Zone. Like, why is this happening again?

• 49:55Bill Simmons?

  Um, yeah.

• 49:55Speaker 02

  But it does like make sense on paper. Defender, kind of nice insurance on the wing, you know, as Jimmy is rehabbing and getting back and he could be a nice piece for them that could be, you know, I mean, doesn't have to be a scorer by any means, but I think defensively, he's a nice cog in the machine, but I still would be a little concerned about the maturation. That would, that would be the thing where the age seems like it matches, but I'm not sure that the, uh, the, the way that he acts.

• 50:17Bill Simmons?

  Interesting. Well, the one that I think so Mara, the center is anywhere from like eight to 15.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  That could be an OKC move too.

• 50:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's what, so I had him written down tentatively for OKC at 12. But I also think there's a world where they try to trade up in the top three, which I talked about Thursday. And some people are saying, cause I had A.J. Mitchell and 12 for the three. And, and some of the feedback I was getting was A.J. Mitchell's contract is so good. Why would they trade him? Why wouldn't they look at, at Jalen Williams instead? And, cause he's going to be at like 45, 40, 48, 50, and they've proven that they're, they can be running at all cylinders, whether he's there or not. And I was wondering like, could they trade Jalen Williams to Memphis for KCP in the three? It feels like a Presti kind of move, right?

• 51:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:11Bill Simmons?

  If you're Memphis, they're like, holy shit, we have Jalen Williams and Cedric Coward now. And if you're OKC, you're basically resetting the clock and you're getting some sort of, you're getting Boozer or Caleb Wilson, you're getting one of those guys, maybe even Peterson.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, they know they have to break it up at some point. And also it looks like it works without J-Dub, um, which is crazy. And A.J. has been great so far. And it's also people saying he looked like a top 50 player. So, um, yeah, I mean, I think Presti will be working the line. So I think that's a good call. I mean, but I, I think at 12 to me is where the line is to see, cause like Dalen Swain's in that range, a Di Mar is in that range. We also didn't mention Kingston Flemings, who I do, I forgot to kind of mention in the cluster of guards. I do think Kingston Flemings is pretty fascinating too.

• 51:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't know what to make of him. And from what the rankings are, it seems like a lot of people, because we've seen a little like Fears, I know he's better than Fears last year, but same kind of thing, like just a young, athletic, fast guard, what is he, where was, we had, it felt like a big, a little more of a sampler size with Wogler and Acuff.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:11Bill Simmons?

  But I know Flemings, at one point Flemings was the, you know, number five and everything.

• 52:17Speaker 03

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of, major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 52:43Speaker 04

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 52:47Speaker 05

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 53:15Speaker 04

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 53:41Speaker 05

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at Caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 53:47Speaker 03

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of, major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 54:13Speaker 04

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 54:24Speaker 05

  I needed more from my antidepressant. So my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 54:45Speaker 04

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 55:11Speaker 05

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Carhartt. We spend a lot of time talking about football, the players, the coaches, the big plays, but there's a whole other team we rarely think about, the people who make the game possible, the workers building stadiums, paving parking lots, growing the grass, welding the goalposts, even making the footballs. They're committed to their craft and they're doing the work long before kickoff. Carhartt is proud to outfit those crews. So next time you're watching a game, take a second to appreciate the people behind it. Learn more at carhartt.com/jointhetraids. Yeah. Last thing I want to mention on the lottery. Miami's at 13. And if you factor in two teams usually do something weird, right?

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Odds are they're going to get like Fylon or somebody good. And it just, it always happens. They got Khris Butler that year. They got Tyler Hero that year. They got Bam that year. They're always like kind of lingering from in this early teens range. Couple people screw up and all of a sudden somebody awesome. And as you know, I don't like Miami. Sal and worse.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  What about like Nate Ament there?

• 56:22Bill Simmons?

  It seems like he's dropping.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  He is dropping, but I just don't think there is the tools that are there. Like I'm not completely out on native men. I know that every time I see a new board, it's like native bins down to like 18, 20 range. But there were talks last year going into the season where native men was going to be in the top four. He was going to be, you know, instead of Caleb Wilson, it was native men, you know? So I still think there's maybe a team that talks themselves into taking him in that 14, you know, 13 to 15 range.

• 56:48Bill Simmons?

  All right. So I'm putting you on the spot. The best player from this draft will be 10 years from now. People are throwing this clip back in your face.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  I don't want to say it because I don't want it to get thrown back in his face, but I'm going to say it because why not? Caleb Wilson.

• 57:04Bill Simmons?

  That's not just a North Carolina thing.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I honestly, I could take the blinders off and I could just say to myself, my God, this guy is incredible. So, I mean, AJ, Caleb, oh, Verneau.

• 57:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 57:22Bill Simmons?

  Tate just said Tate just said he thought Caleb Wilson was going to be the best guy from this lottery in 10 years. Chris Vernon is here, by the way, host of the mismatch.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Future Memphis Grizzlies.

• 57:32Bill Simmons?

  Located in Memphis, winner of the third pick in the NBA draft, and I can't wait to hear who you want them to take.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  Oh, listen, this Boozer Wilson debate is going to feed families. My, my family for the next month and a half. This is going to be great because I think the expectation is it right to Van Soelgo one Peterson will go to because they don't need a four in Utah. And so the Grizzlies, they're sitting at three. That's going to be the debate. Everybody is going to try to decide whether or not they prefer Cam Boozer or they prefer Caleb Wilson. The sure thing or like what Tate says, the guy.

• 58:14Bill Simmons?

  The ceiling guy.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. The ceiling guy.

• 58:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, so who, let's dive into the psyche of Memphis and the great grind Grizzlies. That was the most beloved Memphis team of all time. Who is more Memphis?

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Those two guys.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  I mean, I will say that Wilson is, Wilson is, there's two, there's two ways to go look at it, right? Because I don't think people would necessarily think Marc Gasol, but Marc Gasol is like totally embodied Memphis. Now, he did go to high school there. He had an awareness of the city prior to, but he is a serious, doesn't take any crap, gets his job done, right? Like, he doesn't go about it in some kind of flashy way. So I think that could be viewed as blue collar. Certainly, Wilson has got the whole like,

• 59:05Speaker 02

  I have this crazy motor, that kind of. So I think, honestly, I think both of them can fit in terms of, like, the city. Um, Wilson's the kind of guy that, like, well, it'll be every kid's favorite player. He'll be the one smiling. Like, he's got, he's got like a personality, whereas a boozer is obviously much more businesslike. But what, what fans respect is guys that, you know, especially in a blue collar town like Memphis, they just respect guys that give it honest effort every single night. And I think that both

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Both of them, you're getting both of that, yeah.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  Both, both of them do that, right? They go about it in different ways. Certainly Wilson's flashier, but you could be playing against anybody and Boozer is still, like, Boozer doesn't half-ass it against anybody. And so it's just the idea that you, like, bring your lunch pail to work and you give an honest effort every night.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  All right, Tate, give us your last thoughts because Double House is gonna come back into the Zoom. It feels like we've filled special, uh, we've fixed the special effects. House doubled during the, during the podcast. All of a sudden, he was in two feeds.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, he had two Zooms open, yeah.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  It was a disaster. Um, so give us your Memphis take before we go.

• 1:00:22Bill Simmons?

  Do you want them to take Tate?

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  I think they should take Caleb Wilson because I think Cedric Coward and Caleb Wilson is a fun combination. Also like Ja Morant, the high-flying Ja Morant.

• 1:00:30Bill Simmons?

  That's a League Pass team, yeah.

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, like this is, you get a perfect, you get dunk highlights galore. You got two high IQ guys with Cedric Coward. I think that's great. It would be fun.

• 1:00:40Bill Simmons?

  Didn't Boozer play on Chicago, the dad?

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:00:44Bill Simmons?

  I have a vague memory of him ending up there and it wasn't, wasn't great. Yeah.

• 1:00:48Speaker 06

  Well, and, and let's, let's pause on the whole Ja Morant flying around dunking.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  I'm saying back in the day, I'm saying, I'm saying, we can restart the clock on a different guy. You know what I mean? Like, let's have some fun.

• 1:01:01Speaker 06

  I gotta tell you, Bill, in absolute stunned disbelief that Tate prefers the Carolina guy to the Duke guy. This is crazy.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  I have no disrespect towards, I like both guys. I like both guys. I think it's a win-win, Verno.

• 1:01:15Bill Simmons?

  Tate, Tate will call it like it is, but if it's a UNC guy that he loves, he's gonna ride for that UNC guy.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  If you play in Georgia, I would say the same thing. I'll say that.

• 1:01:24Bill Simmons?

  Tate, we'll see you on Ringer Tailgate this week. We're letting you go. Thanks for, thanks for hanging on, especially with the traumatic House disappearance. I'm glad we were able to go through that together.

• 1:01:31Speaker 02

  I'm worried about him. I hope he gets in. Thanks, guys. Good to see you, Verno.

• 1:01:34Bill Simmons?

  Bye, Tate.

• 1:01:35Speaker 06

  Good to see you, Tate.

• 1:01:36Bill Simmons?

  Verno.

• 1:01:37Speaker 06

  How drunk is he? How drunk is House?

• 1:01:39Bill Simmons?

  House was fairly coherent.

• 1:01:42Speaker 06

  What?

• 1:01:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's popping back on right now.

• 1:01:44Speaker 06

  There is no chance if Memphis would have popped up one, I'm on this thing.

• 1:01:48Bill Simmons?

  Did you, did you feel like you just wanted to get in the four? Or did you, were you like?

• 1:01:52Speaker 06

  Yes, yes.

• 1:01:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because that's how, I think with this draft, you just want to be in the four.

• 1:01:57Speaker 06

  It was just, you know, whenever you go through miserable, punted seasons, you just want the end to justify the means. And so being in the top four meant that it was worth it. And, you know, like, I'll, I'll give you, for instance, the very end of the season, and this is the worst thing to go through, is when you're playing, when you're playing games where it's like, who wants to lose more? But you guys even talked about it, I recall, there was a game that was coming up with Memphis versus Dallas. And people were like, this thing should be on League Pass.

• 1:02:32Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:02:33Speaker 06

  And Memphis was better at the end of the season at losing on purpose.

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  Well, now you look up at the end, Dallas is picking nine and Memphis is picking three. They had the same record. They had the exact same record at that game.

• 1:02:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  And now, I mean, that is how, that's how, that's how sometimes this can fall. And so if you're, if you're a Dallas fan, I think you're looking at it and go, whoa, whoa, whoa, what was the point of that? We're picking nine, right?

• 1:02:58Bill Simmons?

  We, we had that, uh, we had that, the Durant year.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:01Bill Simmons?

  The worst team, terrible, and then we fell to five. We fell to the Jeff, Jeff Green pick. It was, it was devastating.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  Oh, Bill, I hosted a bar filled with Memphis Grizzlies fans on ESPN.

• 1:03:16Bill Simmons?

  That's right. You had the, the Mike Conley, that you had Mike Conley.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  On ESPN, we had one huge blow up doll of Greg Oden in a Memphis uniform and one huge blow up doll of Durant. And oh my God, the amount of alcohol that was consumed that night after it popped up four. And the radio broadcaster for the Grizzlies like got on the stage and he's like, Chris Bosch was drafted number four. And everybody was like, fuck you.

• 1:03:47Speaker 02

  House, congratulations.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Bruno, congratulations, baby.

• 1:03:52Bill Simmons?

  We fell to five that year and it was like, are they going to take Jeff Green or Yi Xin Lan? And I was like, shoot me. Where's the bar?

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  The chairman, the chairman. Bruno, who are you going to take? You're going to take a three.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  Oh, I just, all right, before you came on, when Tate was on, I was saying, like, I got six weeks of Cam Boozer, Caleb Wilson debate. This is going to be great. This is going to be great because they're, look, I love both of them. I don't think there, there's not like a wrong choice. And that's why, that's why everybody is euphoric because if you were able to get in the top four, you're not making a wrong choice. That's how it feels at least today.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  I felt that way because the lottery happened this afternoon. I was like, as long as we get in top four, I'm cool. I'll take any of them.

• 1:04:39Bill Simmons?

  I asked Tate before you guys came on, if OKC offered Jalen Williams to Memphis for the third pick and took back the Caldwell Pope expiring, would you consider it?

• 1:04:53Speaker 06

  I don't think they would because I think what's happening now.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Wow, he was, what was he, second or third team NBA last year?

• 1:05:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, he was.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Like 23?

• 1:05:02Speaker 06

  Here's, here's, I'll tell you, but he's already signed his contract bill. And one of the things we are learning is that I think this is all evolving where you're going to have to have major contributors on rookie contracts and probably multiple major contributors on rookie contracts.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Well, that was like the Celtics with Joe Mazzola in the, in the playoffs when guys like Hugo and, oh no, they, he didn't play them. But tactically, I agree with you.

• 1:05:29Speaker 06

  No, I mean, that.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 1:05:31Speaker 06

  That is what's gonna happen because what ends up happening is because you can have second tier stars, right? So Desmond Bain signs to Max and Franz Wagner gets his 180 million. And so then you've got, when, because that's how, the only way you're gonna keep these guys is by paying them. But there's only so many that actually probably move the needle enough. And then if you accumulate a couple of them, now that's gotta be good enough, right? Like, and you're, and you're up against it. And so I do think that the value of, the value now more than ever is getting these guys that are, can contribute immediately.

• 1:06:12Speaker 06

  Because now you get them for four years and you've got a good enough, you're able to build out. You think about even what I just went through with the Grizzlies?

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:21Speaker 06

  The best team was when those guys were on the rookie deals. That was, that, that's when you were able to have Tyus Jones and De'Anthony Melton and Kyle Anderson and Brandon Clark. And like, your bench was really good too. But I think kind of the only way you can have, like, you're either gonna overpay a bunch of starters, right? And, or you're gonna have these guys on rookie deals. I think the best teams are gonna be young. I do.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Well, that's why the, the Celtics are in such an interesting spot with.

• 1:06:50Bill Simmons?

  Jalen here, if they can try to trade. You know, that that would be one of the largest, especially with the way that Tate and I talked about how the draft broke. Where you have like Brooklyn at six is like, well, we don't want to suck again. Can we get a star for this pick? Or Atlanta at eight? And could the Celtics end up? If that's what if Jalen does want to leave or they decide maybe it's time, is that the kind of trade that if if Yanis isn't sitting there? Trying to get a young guy back. On a cheaper, on a cheaper thing and then try to spend the money elsewhere. Is the way you agree with that? Well, how or would you rather keep Jalen and make a run at it?

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Well, I I think you're not that far away if you have both Tatum and Brown. And we kind of have a good, good, good track record of that based on the success that they've had.

• 1:07:33Bill Simmons?

  Jalen wants his own team. That's where the problem would.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  You, you, you at some point, somebody needs to sit down with him and get to the bottom of this so that we're not dealing with this nonsense. You know, 15 year old drama silliness, the twitch and whatever.

• 1:07:47Bill Simmons?

  Can that person not be Tracy McGrady?

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  Oh, I that's that was.

• 1:07:53Bill Simmons?

  Did you see that last night?

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  I was so happy.

• 1:07:55Bill Simmons?

  What the fuck was that?

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  I watched it afterwards.

• 1:07:56Bill Simmons?

  I didn't actually talk to Jalen. I just saw, I noticed the body language and I was also down 3-1 and blew it. And I know how frustrating that, what are you saying? Also, Jalen just said this was the best year of his career. What? So his body language was bad? That was a mess, man. They should have rehearsed that one better. We know you talked to Jalen Brown. It's fine. Just fucking admit it.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  I want to say though, to Verno's point. That here in Washington, the defense that the decision makers offer up for why they traded Denny Avdia. Was because of wanting a core group of guys all between ages 19 and 22. That are basically on the same contract trajectory and let them all come together at the same time. That's why this number one pick is especially valuable for the Washington situation. Cause now you have four or five guys that are all in that same class, that same category. And it will say if any of them actually. You know, if it plays out, but promising Sar, promising Keyshawn George, promising Will Riley,

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  promising this number one overall pick and you put a veteran or two into it and it's interesting.

• 1:09:11Speaker 06

  Well, and you really just need two of them to hit, right? Because look, Oklahoma City's was able to move off of Giddy. Giddy was a hit, right? Like that's a hit pick. And then by the time it was time to pay him, they're able to swing that into Caruso because they had other ones that were gonna hit.

• 1:09:28Bill Simmons?

  Right. Well, OKC, we gotta talk about them really quick. They're seven and O in the playoffs. We haven't talked basketball at all. We've been talking about the lottery for a full hour. They're seven O in the playoffs. They've, I talked about Thursday night, this A.J. Mitchell situation. Where, you know, he's gonna make $3 million a year next year. And this is a guy who feels like he could almost run his own team at this point. There, they have the big Jalen Williams contract and big SGA and Chet. And they're gonna have to do some gymnastics pretty soon. They have this 12th pick, which to Vernos' point, this is what you want to do. You want to keep replenishing with these guys in the first four years. And it's just, it just feels like they're gonna be in this situation over and over again the rest of the decade.

• 1:10:11Bill Simmons?

  It's really starting to feel like they could be in the finals or the Western Finals, 60-plus wins here. For, I don't know, the next seven, eight years. And this 12th pick is gonna be a good player.

• 1:10:22Speaker 06

  And you didn't even mention, right? They got the Sorber kid. He doesn't touch the floor and, and Topich. He doesn't touch, I mean, they got two.

• 1:10:30Bill Simmons?

  Wiggins doesn't play anymore. That guy, that guy would have played minutes for real teams this year.

• 1:10:35Speaker 06

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:10:36Bill Simmons?

  He's just on the side. Yeah, we, well, no, we don't, we didn't play subs house.

• 1:10:42Bill Simmons?

  So before the lottery, I was on a FaceTime with my dad for 15 to 20 solid minutes. He's still really upset about the Sixer series and the Knicks series made it worse. Watching the Knicks, which that game happened tonight, it was a sweep. It was embarrassing. It was really the most humiliating weekend you could possibly have in Philly where you not only get waxed by the Knicks, but you have 70 to 75% like for real of Knicks fans in there just completely taking over the building. And then by the end of it, you go from a week ago where you had the highs of this game seven. Oh my God, Paul George is in a disaster. Hey, Embiid's back. Maxey edge come. And it's so exciting to a week later being like, is Daryl going

• 1:11:27Bill Simmons?

  to get fired? What's going to happen? How's this going to play out? Um, I just, my dad was just like, why didn't we do that against Philly? Why didn't we put Embiid in pick and pop stuff? Why didn't we just hound Maxey? Like what the fuck were we doing?

• 1:11:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, especially with the way that obviously they've got a ball dominant guard and Brunson is a drop coverage demolisher, right? It was like Embiid, I don't care what his stats were. He was unplayable against them because there's no, there's no good choice to make. You cannot hide him. And to Mike Brown's credit, he was not going to let him be hidden. He was going to be put in every single action until you either pulled him off the court or you just lived with us bombing you out. And they just lived with getting bombed out.

• 1:12:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, they did that with the Celtics too. And we didn't make any of the threes, but I also didn't feel like we attacked Embiid like that house.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  Well, I want to be as respectful as possible, but like this version of Celtics fandom, you guys are fucking delusional. You weren't good enough. You, you didn't have the talent. OG Anunoby, whose name I'll never get right, and Karl-Anthony Towns are better than what the Celtics put out in terms of a front court. Like you had no answer for, for Embiid or any of the, the size. Uh, they had no answer for Paul George playing, playing defense. The Knicks are better. The Knicks are better than the Celtics. And the Knicks ran the sixes right off the court.

• 1:12:58Bill Simmons?

  I told my dad, we might have been saved by actually getting our ass kicked in a real way by the Knicks, especially if Tatum was 100%. So.

• 1:13:06Speaker 06

  Well, because then it convinces you that like, hey, that we got this many wins because we gave an honest effort every night. We were tryhards, right?

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:13:14Speaker 06

  And tryhards, when the playoffs come around, get exposed because you can't just win.

• 1:13:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:21Speaker 06

  By, by, with depth and playing hard, right?

• 1:13:24Bill Simmons?

  You had a team like that. What was your Memphis team like that recently? Like four or five years ago?

• 1:13:27Speaker 06

  Oh, sure.

• 1:13:28Bill Simmons?

  Or three, three years ago.

• 1:13:29Speaker 06

  It's why, it's why people didn't believe in them, right? It's like, because when it comes, when it comes playoff time, like, there might be the one Luke Kennard game, or there might be the Tyus Jones game, but then, but as you, as you go up levels in the playoffs, they are just gonna hone in on that. And then you're gonna find out, like, okay, I've actually got really five that can play in this. I don't really have 10 that can play in this. I mean, hell, even, even in the Minnesota series, during one of the Grizzlies' best seasons, they made, they, the Grizzlies benched Steven Adams and played Xavier Tillman at center because Towns

• 1:14:11Speaker 06

  just played him off the floor completely. They were like, and that was in the first round of the playoffs. It's like, once, you can, if you give an honest effort and you play hard every single night, you can win a lot of regular season games. And I'll give Missoula and the Celtics credit for doing that. But I think House is right. When it came down to talent, in the end, it's still, you know, Namias Kada, and it's still Sam House, or it's still, yeah.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Right. Isn't it? And it's not your fault. It's not the Celtics' fault that Embiid came back and was capable of being effective. You couldn't really game plan for Embiid being part of the playoff series.

• 1:14:46Speaker 06

  Also, how, who could have predicted Derrick White being awful? Like, not like,

• 1:14:50Bill Simmons?

  I know. Well, they put a lot of miles on him.

• 1:14:52Speaker 06

  He was awful.

• 1:14:53Bill Simmons?

  One of the things we were talking about was Paul George comes back from the suspension. By the way, Skip Bayless, who I can't say I'm a fan of, um, the playoff P P E E was legitimately funny. House, I'm furious we didn't come up with that joke.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  All the years we've been together, we never.

• 1:15:09Bill Simmons?

  How do we not come up with playoff P E E? It was so good. Uh, but he comes back and he's got his legs. Embiid comes back from, I, God only knows where he was, and he has his legs for a week. And then by the, by the time they got to these last two Knicks games, both of them looked like the guys that we picked at our worst contracts draft. So they, they got this little thing. I still feel like the Celtics were a little better than a tryhard team when Tatum came back. I just think the whole thing of bringing him back mid-season combined with them bailing on the bench was pretty weird.

• 1:15:41Speaker 06

  You also started three guys that never play in game seven.

• 1:15:46Bill Simmons?

  That was, that was desperate. That was desperate. The Ron Harper start will live in infamy. Nobody, nobody still knows what happened with that. Um, can we talk about the Knicks quick? They've won three, seven straight games. Some of it can be attributed to using Towns and, and running more stuff through him and some of the passing, which has been really impressive and becoming less Brunson centric. They had a shitload of threes today. I think they were, they were making, they were nine for 10 at one point from three in the first quarter. But, uh, but what they've done for Towns, which I always kind of wondered why they didn't do it. Maybe I didn't, I didn't know if he had it in him, but what

• 1:16:27Bill Simmons?

  they did, it just feels like they're more interesting now, House.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  It, it, it's incredible. And I give Mike Brown a ton of credit. The streak of assists that he's, he's gotten at least six assists in however many straight games. And tonight, you know, I think he had seven assists in the first quarter.

• 1:16:45Bill Simmons?

  And they're real assists. They're not like, I passed you a shot and you dribbled and took a three. They're like backdoor layups and hitting guys, cutting and stuff.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  The thing to me with this Knicks team is they have shown us now twice, both in, in two different closeout situations, that they have another level. And that's what's scary for this run that they're on. Cause they did the exact same thing to Atlanta. Like, how can they make all of these buckets and get rolling so quickly in a first quarter and basically put the game out of reach in a first quarter? They did it twice. That validates what they did to Atlanta. And the Sixers, you know, I think comparing them to Atlanta, that was a more formidable foe, a more formidable situation, even though they had them down 3-0.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  But for for sure, they are they they flew today. They were at a different kind of place altogether in terms of the speed and the force that they played that first quarter and the game was over.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's that's twice, right? That's twice that they that they've done a team with theoretically, their backs against the wall should have a grand slam of effort and they just humiliated them.

• 1:17:55Bill Simmons?

  I mean, you look at the seven game winning streak. They won by sixteen. They won by twenty nine. They won that last game in Atlanta by fifty one. And then you go in this series and they were they had a thirty nine point win, a fourteen point win in game three. That was actually not even as close. And then the blowout in this game. I like when I'm seeing blowouts in the playoffs with the team like that. That's a different level. That tells you like not only that's I always the teams that fall behind always makes me nervous. And what's weird is the Knicks were one of those teams that they always felt like they were down eight, ten with, you know, eight minutes left. Now, now they're blowing everybody out. They look really good. I mean, this is probably the best time to be a Knicks fan, I would say, since nineteen ninety four,

• 1:18:41Bill Simmons?

  where you feel like, holy shit, we have a real chance now to win. Even last year, you know, they obviously were the favorites in the Indiana series. They'd just beaten the Celtics, but they weren't supposed to beat the Celtics. That was a weird series. Like, they're kicking asses now. And I I don't know, I like I actually, do you think they go toe to toe with one of these West teams, Berna? From what you've seen?

• 1:19:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do. I also think that like Detroit was mega physical against them and really bodied them this year. So like if they can get through that, if they can get through, because I think it will eventually be New York and Detroit. And go look at those games this year. Detroit pumped them out. And so we'll see. I do think they would need like full on OGN and OB to be able to to deal with that, right? Because again, you're going up a level. But if they get past that, because they'll be battered and bruised by the time they get through there. But for sure, I mean, I it's very plausible that we could see, you know, we saw them in the in season tournament for what it's worth, right? At the very end and you know.

• 1:19:45Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's so nice of you to bring that up. But it's a real thing. Yeah, no, I like it.

• 1:19:50Speaker 06

  Everybody cares.

• 1:19:51Bill Simmons?

  He wants some Adam Silver brownie points.

• 1:19:53Speaker 06

  No, they did care. Well, look, Adam Silver's on my good list. We popped up three, House popped up one.

• 1:19:58Bill Simmons?

  Like, that's true.

• 1:19:59Speaker 06

  He's, I'm cool today.

• 1:20:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, you know what happened? Nick Wright and I talked about on Tuesday, the, all the mean stuff LeBron said about the city, they had to atone.

• 1:20:10Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 1:20:11Bill Simmons?

  That was vicious, vicious comments.

• 1:20:14Speaker 06

  It wasn't, it wasn't just him. We got dog piled all year, all year. Draymond, Anthony Edwards.

• 1:20:20Bill Simmons?

  Memphis, can we build a four, a four floor Mandarin Oriental or a montage?

• 1:20:24Speaker 06

  I mean.

• 1:20:25Bill Simmons?

  Do that, Verno?

• 1:20:25Speaker 06

  I don't know. You're, you're the richest guy I know. Help us out.

• 1:20:29Bill Simmons?

  He all invested it.

• 1:20:32Bill Simmons?

  It's 41 nights a year plus playoffs. I think we, at least I was gonna be booked some nights.

• 1:20:37Speaker 06

  I agree.

• 1:20:39Bill Simmons?

  I've never heard a hotel, what is the hotel that gets the most hatred? We had influencers going down there and doing, doing videos. Like, this is amazing.

• 1:20:48Speaker 06

  The Hyatt. I think, I don't mean like, and, and the, and the Westin, I suppose, the one across the street. I mean, it's, I guess it's not up to their, their.

• 1:20:56Bill Simmons?

  House NBA people, NBA people and Joe House, love, love a good hotel.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  I stayed at that Hyatt and actually I was there at the same time, um, cause I went, visited Verno, did the show with Verno.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  And it was during the season and both the Dallas Mavericks were in for a couple nights and, and then, uh, Houston was in. I was in an elevator with Sangoon. And it's a very nice Hyatt, but it is not like what they encounter in other cities. And it's a super easy walk, straight down, uh, the street to, to the, uh.

• 1:21:28Bill Simmons?

  But they want big ass suites.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:30Bill Simmons?

  They want good room service.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  They, they want all that.

• 1:21:33Speaker 06

  And hoes.

• 1:21:35Bill Simmons?

  Um, we're.

• 1:21:38Speaker 06

  That's what the big conspiracy is. We ain't got enough.

• 1:21:43Bill Simmons?

  Import some.

• 1:21:44Speaker 06

  I mean, we, I guess, we don't have enough flight, I guess we don't have enough flights either.

• 1:21:49Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says the Daily Beast. John Tortore gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Tortore stars as an aging master pickpocket,

• 1:22:33Bill Simmons?

  whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. It's also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls instantly classic. The Only Living Pickpocket in New York opens in theaters October 23rd in New York and Los Angeles, nationwide October 30th. We're taping this before game four of Timberwolves Spurs. What Wemby did on Friday night was terrifying. This, who knows what's gonna happen in game four? But that was, I thought, such a fascinating game.

• 1:23:10Bill Simmons?

  Just for the future of the league, that somebody aged 22 could do that. I got this email that I thought was, kind of, kind of broke my brain about, about the Wemby situation we're in.

• 1:23:25Bill Simmons?

  Basically, so it's this guy Bradley from LA, Laker fan. And he said, if you look at all the guys who became Hall of Famers, who won titles, who were under the age of like 24, which is basically Magic Johnson, Kobe, Kareem, Duncan, Wade, Kawhi, and Bill Russell, that's the list.

• 1:23:46Bill Simmons?

  All of them had an older, awesome teammate that helped them win. So Magic had Kareem, Kobe had Shaq, Kareem had Oscar Robertson, Duncan had Robinson, Wade had Shaq, Kawhi had Duncan, and Parker and Janobie, and Russell had Cousy and Charmin. So the question is, does this mean the Spurs are gonna lose? Or does this mean Wemby is great enough to break history? And become the first guy who's like, I actually don't need a Hall of Fame older teammate. I'm gonna do this myself. How good is he to you, House? Like, what's the ceiling for you as we head into the next five weeks here?

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  I hate to confess this, I'm still stuck on my old guy mindset. I mean, the evidence keeps piling up that he is a one of one capable of sort of vanquishing the entire, you know, 20, 30 year longer than that history that we've built up that you there needs to be their steps to this. So they need to go in and take a loss. I thought that game one against Minnesota was like, welcome to the playoffs. That that's, that's our, you know, they ran through Portland without too much trouble. The first game where they had a team come out with playoff intensity, the playoff physicality, you know, they were

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  constantly in into Wemby's chest at his legs the entire game was that game one. And yet the ability for San Antonio and Wemby, they just very coolly recalibrate, reset, and that game three, it really challenges the old artifice.

• 1:25:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, maybe this is a new era, Verno.

• 1:25:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, you know, there's part of me that thinks it might be, and it goes back to what I was saying about teams being young. I remember years ago on the mismatch, I did this whole bit where I think the Celtics had lost at some point, and maybe they were like when the Jays were like around 25. And I was like, look, you go back and look through the history of the NBA, and everybody's like 27 before they do it for the first time. And that is Michael Jordan, and that is LeBron James, and that is Steph Curry, and that is Shaq, and name the great players. They're generally 20, 27 or older. And so we have this expectation, but the history of the NBA tells us that. And then Giannis did it at 26. And then

• 1:26:08Speaker 06

  Gildas Alexander did it last year, I think at 26. And so that number may just keep getting lower. It might, like, you know what I mean? Like, because I've already had to lower it from 27. It's like, yeah, we gotta kind of gotta wait until they're 27. You know, they've become men, they've probably settled down, you know, they figured out, you know, they figured out the game, they've got a lot of reps and whatever. But it's interesting, if there is anybody that would be different, it certainly stands to reason that it would be him, because he is, I think we throw around that he is unlike anything we've ever seen, but he's truly unlike anything in the history of the world. So, why not him?

• 1:26:48Bill Simmons?

  I was texting, don't ask, but I was texting about Katelyn Clark with a couple of people yesterday about.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Why don't ask?

• 1:26:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, it was, it was.

• 1:26:55Speaker 06

  Cause it was David Letterman house.

• 1:26:58Bill Simmons?

  David Letterman and Jon Stewart.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  Amazing. Of course it was. Of course it was.

• 1:27:03Bill Simmons?

  No, but she, she had a, like, not a great first game, right? And, and I was, I was thinking in my head about comparing her to Wemby. Where same kind of spotlight, same kind of being tested by everyone in the league over and over again. And in Katelyn's case, it doesn't seem like she's handled it a hundred percent well. Like last year, it felt like the entire league was, was coming at her, right? And really trying to test her and be physical with her and really seemed like, almost like the other people on the other teams like genuinely disliked her. And she was in all these non-sports conversations and, um, you know, kept bringing, getting brought in as a political tool. And it didn't seem like she was enjoying that part. It felt like to me, like, I know nothing, but it felt like a little bit of her joy was gone.

• 1:27:49Bill Simmons?

  And some people, it's a lot when it's all getting thrown at you, right? And I look at Wemby and he's the opposite. Wemby's like, fucking bring it on. I've been training for this my whole life. You're going to be physical with me. I'm going to make you pay. And I think that's been the most impressive thing to me that at age 22, he's wired the way he's wired, where he's got so much fuck you in him already.

• 1:28:10Speaker 06

  But nobody resents him. Nobody resents him though. That, that, that league resented Katelyn Clark. They resented the fact that that's all anybody wanted to talk about, but they're also, right? Like they've kind of been there. They've done that. They, they're, they're great players in their own right. You know, the Asia Wilsons of the world have been winning MVPs and championships. And yet it's like, all anybody wanted to talk about was Katelyn Clark. And so it had this resentment.

• 1:28:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there was enough you could chip away at it. Cause the difference with Wemby.

• 1:28:42Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:28:42Bill Simmons?

  Is if you play against him or you even go see him in person, and I know we've all had the same experience. You're just like, holy shit. Like this is like even three, you saw him in person, right? It has to like three times crazier than I was expecting.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  I haven't seen him in person yet, but I just would say it's a luxury for Wemby. He's arrived in a very well established league with a well established collective bargaining agreement and pay, you know, pay structures. I mean, they brought him along how they could. The situation with the WNBA was radically different and Katelyn Clark arrives with a giant fan base. She dragged people over to that product because they were so enamored of her college performance. She was a one of one in college in terms of that shooting. And she reminded us of Steph Curry, like, wow, we haven't seen anybody shoot like this before. And now I'm a fan of Steph. And she came over and all of a sudden there's eyeballs, lots of eyeballs on the WNBA for the first time.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  And, and they're in the middle of about a collective bargaining agreement that's about to expire. And the entire pay scale needs to be reset and the TV deals need to be all reset. And she did bear the brunt of a lot of that because she was the one that generated the interest that propelled the whole thing upwards. The prices they're getting for expansion teams. She singularly, to my way of thinking, is responsible for the entirety of that. And she missed most of last season by being hurt. And so all she had to.

• 1:30:09Bill Simmons?

  And the team did well without her, which is another thing. Yeah. So there's, there's ways to pick at it. It's interesting though. Yeah. So we'll see with Wemby tonight.

• 1:30:16Speaker 06

  She's way more famous too, way more famous. Do you think your wives know who Victor Wembanyama is?

• 1:30:23Bill Simmons?

  I think this, the last couple of months, I think it's been happening.

• 1:30:26Speaker 06

  Do you think your wife knows who Victor Wembanyama is?

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  No way. She definitely does because.

• 1:30:31Speaker 06

  She does?

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  The TV is on basketball on my house, you know, it's not fair for me.

• 1:30:36Speaker 06

  That's fair.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  I have a 15 year old too. He.

• 1:30:39Speaker 06

  I just don't, I just don't think she, he's not famous like she is. She was.

• 1:30:43Bill Simmons?

  Bruno, was there, was there any PCU that thought OKC was going to lose a game to the Lakers?

• 1:30:49Speaker 06

  No, not a. And not after watching that stupid Houston series. I mean, that was so abominable that you watched that and it was like,

• 1:30:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:57Speaker 06

  I mean, that's, it felt like two non-playoff teams that we were forced to watch playing each other in the playoffs.

• 1:31:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I know how that ended up being the worst matchup, but it was a four, five.

• 1:31:07Speaker 06

  I know.

• 1:31:08Bill Simmons?

  It felt like they were the two worst teams.

• 1:31:09Speaker 06

  Well, because they didn't have Luca and they didn't have Durant.

• 1:31:11Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:31:12Speaker 06

  I mean, I mean, it was, it was, it was pretty rough to watch. And so, and again, another team that can expose you like Oklahoma City. And, and you know that like you have no chance unless your turnovers are low. That's your only chance against Oklahoma City is playing with low turnovers. And they're going to go out with a backcourt of Marcus Smart and Luke Kennard?

• 1:31:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:35Speaker 06

  I mean, that's, that, that's a tough pill.

• 1:31:37Bill Simmons?

  It's sad. I, it's going to be really interesting to see who's at that game tomorrow because it's clearly going to be a sweep. It's a Monday night. It's not like OKC fans are taking it over. I, I think it's going to have, it's going to be definitely a weird energy game. Plus, how's the Laker fans lost their celebrity road title? The Knicks fans are just murdering them.

• 1:31:57Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 1:31:58Bill Simmons?

  This is a rout. I think Boston might have better celebrity fans than the Lakers at this point.

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  I love what you're doing, but it's, it's not comparable. I mean, this Knicks team has legit ambition to get to the Eastern Conference Finals. It was always Eastern Conference Finals or bust for the Knicks team. That's what they did last season. The energy entering the season was high. The Lakers were always a work in progress and, and you know, Los Angeles as well as anybody now that you've been there for 25 years. It's a see to be seen kind of place. Do you want to be seen in a place where?

• 1:32:31Bill Simmons?

  They're real fans too, though. I, I gotta, as much as I can't stand the Lakers, I gotta give them.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Talking about the court size. We're talking about the real fans. We're talking about the court size.

• 1:32:39Bill Simmons?

  They've never replaced the aura of Jack. And I remember writing about this like 15 years ago. They'd never, Leo never really wanted it, honestly. He kind of let down the fanbase.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  Nameless person.

• 1:32:50Bill Simmons?

  Shalameh's embraced it.

• 1:32:53Speaker 06

  Shalameh at road games. Shalameh at road games, Spike, Spike Lee and Shalameh at road games. That's a, that's a different level, right? Like we, to travel to the ga- I know it's close travel, but still to have your, to have your, you know, your celebrity fans in the opposing arena, that's something.

• 1:33:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:13Speaker 01

  With an it guy in Los Angeles right now, or, or gal, that you could put courtside that would capture the moment and that would feel like, oh, this, this is taking it up a notch. I mean.

• 1:33:23Bill Simmons?

  I think you have to go music.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  So it was like Kendrick Lamar?

• 1:33:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think they'd have to grab Kendrick. Ironically, the guy that handles his career, Anthony, huge Laker fan, obviously doesn't care about the Lakers, he won't put Kendrick at a game.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  Well, Anthony told me to, yeah, Anthony told me to whip my dick out on this show today. He, he knew how excited I was.

• 1:33:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, thank God you didn't.

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, not Anthony.

• 1:33:44Bill Simmons?

  No, but maybe you have to do more musicians and not do the, not do the actors as much.

• 1:33:49Speaker 06

  Well, they still got Flea, right?

• 1:33:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's the thing. They haven't replenished. It's like a, it's like an aging contender that hasn't replenished their thing.

• 1:33:57Speaker 06

  You know what I just thought of?

• 1:33:59Bill Simmons?

  Who?

• 1:33:59Speaker 06

  Where's my man Jimmy Goldstein?

• 1:34:01Bill Simmons?

  He's still, he's going all these games.

• 1:34:03Speaker 06

  I haven't seen, they don't put him on camera anymore.

• 1:34:06Bill Simmons?

  I, yeah.

• 1:34:07Speaker 01

  I don't know. There's, there's a, there's a story there.

• 1:34:10Speaker 06

  Oh, there is?

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:11Bill Simmons?

  No, wow.

• 1:34:13Speaker 06

  He used to, he used to be it. I, I used to show him at every game.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  It doesn't help what we're talking about. We want somebody that, that's 30 years old or, or, you know, under the age of 40.

• 1:34:23Bill Simmons?

  Last topic before we go, Detroit, Cleveland. I had Cleveland yesterday. I wagered on them.

• 1:34:31Bill Simmons?

  And they barely pulled it out and they wouldn't have pulled it out of, if, uh, James Harden didn't turn back into James Harden for like three minutes. He sucked the whole game. And then for three minutes became James Harden again. Cleveland, I don't think has lost a home game, right? In the playoffs and.

• 1:34:47Speaker 06

  Hold on, time. Twenty second.

• 1:34:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:49Speaker 06

  Would you have rather lost the bet and Harden missed all those shots? Or have?

• 1:34:56Bill Simmons?

  Cleveland.

• 1:34:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:34:58Bill Simmons?

  Just for the Harden story? No, I wanted to win the bet.

• 1:35:00Speaker 06

  You wanted to win the bet?

• 1:35:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I needed one after I.

• 1:35:04Speaker 06

  It's way, it's way fun.

• 1:35:06Bill Simmons?

  The Knicks have been profitable as well, House. We, how have I been? We've been grabbing the Knicks lately.

• 1:35:12Speaker 06

  Well, hell, you could have a minus thirty.

• 1:35:15Bill Simmons?

  The best. The Knicks were minus like one and a half today. Like, who, who thought Philly was winning today? That, I thought that was crazy.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 1:35:23Bill Simmons?

  But anyway, what do we think happens? What do we think happens in Cavs Pistons here? Do you believe, did the Cavs do anything to make you believe in them or no?

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:35:33Speaker 06

  I, I do not, I do not believe the Cavaliers are gonna beat the Pistons. I, I just.

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  I, I have Detroit in, uh, five. I think they win game four and game five.

• 1:35:44Speaker 06

  I do as well.

• 1:35:45Bill Simmons?

  It's a weird one, cuz I don't feel like Cleveland's playing the right lineups. Now, granted, I'm a guy on my couch in LA, you know, and I'm not, not spending every minute with the team, but like, unless Sam Merrill's hurt, I don't understand why they're not playing him more. I don't understand why they only play one big instead of two. I don't understand why they play Wade when every time Wade's in, it feels like it's a disaster. I would have pulled Harden. I know Harden came through down the stretch. I wouldn't have played him in the last six minutes cuz he's such a defensive liability, but, I don't know, do you think, it just seems like Atkinson's gonna go down with the ship with this, this two bigs, Harden, Mitchell, and a shooter. And he's like, I guess, I guess this is win or lose. I don't know if I agree.

• 1:36:25Speaker 06

  I also think that, you know, I know JB Bickerstaff from his time in Memphis, and I know he feels, he got, he feels like he got screwed there, like that he got blamed there. And he and he coached Donovan Mitchell and he coached Evan Mobley and he coached Jared Allen and he coached James Harden when he was in Houston. He knows all those guys. So if there's anybody that knows how to make those guys look like a semblance of, you know, or a shell of themselves, it would be him. A guy that has really, he's been, he knows what, you know, the way to defend those guys. He watched it every night. He coached all of those guys.

• 1:37:08Speaker 06

  And so I am unsurprised that he's got a good game plan against those guys to make them super uncomfortable. Also, they just don't have, I don't think they have the requisite toughness. I just don't like they just, they

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  Verno, Verno knows because he's an OG.

• 1:37:24Bill Simmons?

  They don't get stops.

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  Where's that Mobley at? Where's that Mobley at?

• 1:37:28Bill Simmons?

  Also, like, what, they give up wide open threes at the worst possible time. So a team that's not even that good at shooting threes other than Robinson. Cade's the best guy in this series. Cleveland's going to be the most interesting offseason team, I think. If they, if Verno's right and they lose the next two. Did you say that or how's they say?

• 1:37:46Speaker 06

  No, no, I think I agree with him. I agree with

• 1:37:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So if that happens, I'm prepared for anything with Cleveland. And also like, you know, Mitchell at this point, there, there's a small piece missing with him in these playoff games that Brunson seems to have, which is ironic because Mitchell was the guy the Knicks wanted all the time. And maybe this will be the Mitchell moment because this Detroit team is a bitch to play against, right? They have all of these dudes they could throw at him and throw at Harden and but I don't know. It's, it's like, I keep waiting for his moment and maybe it's just going to be one of those careers where it never happens, you know?

• 1:38:26Speaker 06

  Or to be on the next team.

• 1:38:29Bill Simmons?

  Or the next team. Maybe it'll be in Memphis. So we all think, we all think this ends in five?

• 1:38:34Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  I mean, I know I do.

• 1:38:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:38:37Bill Simmons?

  All right. So that would be.

• 1:38:40Bill Simmons?

  That's plus 240 on Fandel.

• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:38:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, if you're interested.

• 1:38:45Speaker 06

  Well, then they must be, then they're obviously the underdog tomorrow night. So that's a, I mean, because they're gonna be favored in five. Well, no matter, no matter what happens tomorrow night.

• 1:38:53Bill Simmons?

  They are the underdog, plus three and a half tomorrow.

• 1:38:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, no matter, no.

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  Let me have it.

• 1:38:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, no matter what happens tomorrow night, they're gonna be favored in game five.

• 1:39:02Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're gonna go because San Antonio, uh, Oklahoma, uh, can't, San Antonio, Minnesota.

• 1:39:08Speaker 06

  Who, who do you guys think the, who do you, who would you take? I want to get you both on the record right now. I'll let you change in the next month and a half. But if you had the third pick and it was the Bantsta, I'll give you the Bantsta house, the Bantsta Peterson. And then the debate that I'm gonna be having with everybody for the next six weeks is gonna be Wilson or Boozer.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  Before you came on, I told Simmons and Tate that I think that, that Caleb is more of a Memphis kind of, of player. The dynamic, uh, uh, ability, the, um, he could be a three or a four. I think he fits. What I've come to understand is what your decision makers like, they like that flexibility. And if that kid can, can play defense, the way that, um, Cedric Coward plays defense, that's pretty formidable.

• 1:39:58Speaker 06

  I know, I heard you last week, Bill, you love Wilson.

• 1:40:00Bill Simmons?

  I do.

• 1:40:01Speaker 06

  There's no way you can watch these playoffs and not think, boy, he fits in these.

• 1:40:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's funny because when, the way the, the way the draft fell, Memphis got three. And Boozer just seemed like such a clear Memphis guy, just because, you know, competitive, I liked how he handled himself even when they fell apart and that, when his brother screwed up the NCAA game. And he was just like, like, he, he didn't, he was the only one that didn't seem rattled by it. But I think the Wilson upside is, I just can't believe the tape with him.

• 1:40:34Speaker 06

  I don't want to say dull, but he.

• 1:40:35Bill Simmons?

  He really seems special, like potentially.

• 1:40:37Speaker 06

  I do, I do think, number one, the Memphis front office loves analytics. And they also, in this new era, I do think are going to try to, uh, atone for the mistakes made with Morant, right? They want to make it all about the team, not elevate a star above everybody else that then gets bigger than the operation. And all, and I think that that led to a lot of the things that ended up, you know, the, the, the, the car went off the cliff. Um. And Boozer is like, that he is as safe as safe come. There is zero percent chance he's gonna suck. There's a pretty good chance he's gonna be awesome.

• 1:41:21Speaker 06

  And there's a hundred percent chance, well, I don't want to say a hundred, but a eighty percent chance, you never hear, I don't even know if he's on social media or anything. He's not, he's not. Character. Not contro, yeah, no, nothing controversial, nothing, he's like, it's like the anti, it's like.

• 1:41:41Bill Simmons?

  No, he's like, in a rom com, he's like, they're heading toward the wedding and the, in the beginning of the rom com. And he's like the perfect guy. On paper, he's got everything and yet, yeah, Caleb Wilson's over there. It's like the bartender like, whoa, look at that guy. And all of a sudden we have a love triangle. Caleb Wilson, if you, there's YouTube clips of him, you just watch 10 minutes of him and you're like, is this guy Shawn Kemp crossed with the others?

• 1:42:07Speaker 06

  I know.

• 1:42:08Bill Simmons?

  And he's so electric and I keep thinking of him and Caleb together. So you have that, but then you have Memphis grit and grind analytics. This guy is just like a guaranteed, so it's a really tough one. But it might be Memphis's one chance to get like a super duper star. I don't think Caleb, I don't think Cam Boozer is gonna be a super duper star. I think he'll, I think he'll be a star and like a couple all NBA second or third teams kind of guy. But Caleb Wilson could be like, I don't know what he's gonna be house. I'm literally prepared for anything.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  I agree, too, too good to say choices though, Verno. I don't think it's a.

• 1:42:43Speaker 06

  Well, if you, if you threw him like, him and Bazellus would have some crazy ass dunks in Chicago. They, they would make the Bulls fun for the first time in forever.

• 1:42:53Bill Simmons?

  Well, Tate made the key point, like Caleb is a chip on the shoulder guy. And if you, if he's fourth in a class of four.

• 1:43:00Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:43:01Bill Simmons?

  That's it. It's like boom, going on there. Um, I, the great thing is you can't lose.

• 1:43:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:43:09Bill Simmons?

  Like, and it's a position you needed.

• 1:43:11Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:43:11Bill Simmons?

  You traded Jaren Jackson, which I, as you know, I supported that trade. We argued about Jaren Jackson a million times. I was never a giant fan. I'm pretty sure your current place is 5.7 rebounds a game. I don't know if you've figured out how to, how to put those together yet.

• 1:43:27Speaker 06

  One of the guys we argued about was Mobley, by the way.

• 1:43:31Bill Simmons?

  True. Maybe everybody, maybe everybody was a loser.

• 1:43:35Speaker 06

  We're all, we're all, and, and the other thing is this, we also got lucky because Sacramento ain't up there and Brooklyn ain't up there. And those are Morant homes. Those are possible, right? That if you don't hit the lot, if you just crapped on your fans again, and you missed out and you're not going to get a new shiny toy to sell those sweets and season tickets, right?

• 1:43:57Bill Simmons?

  So you think Morant's gone, whatever happens. That's your take?

• 1:44:01Speaker 06

  But I mean, and, and maybe you push Morant in 16 in and now you're moving up again. You know what I mean? Like, I do think that, I do think that because it could have gone different if like Sacramento or Brooklyn ends up with Debansta, or like say they went one, two in this, or one, three in this, maybe it's a little different world. But I do think that those are possible landing spots when the trade stuff comes around just because they're going to need something to sell and he is fun as hell. He is fun. As long as he plays, he is fun.

• 1:44:33Bill Simmons?

  Brooklyn could be your outcome there. Last thing before we go. OKC right now is minus 170 to win the title on FanDuel. San Antonio is plus 320. The Knicks are plus 750.

• 1:44:47Bill Simmons?

  What's your favorite bet out of those three, Vern?

• 1:44:53Speaker 06

  So.

• 1:44:56Speaker 06

  I think I would say just odds wise Knicks.

• 1:44:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:00Speaker 06

  I think I'd say, yeah.

• 1:45:01Bill Simmons?

  Plus 750 is like good odds.

• 1:45:04Speaker 06

  Yeah. Are, is Ananobe going to be able to be a hundred percent by the time we get to the NBA finals? And it almost feels like if he's not, then I don't like it. And honestly, like, look, Oklahoma City's obviously the, that's last on that. How about this? What is Detroit? Plus a billion? Like, I mean, because they're not.

• 1:45:23Bill Simmons?

  Eighteen to one.

• 1:45:24Speaker 06

  Oh, wow. I mean, again.

• 1:45:27Bill Simmons?

  Minnesota 150 to 1, although that game is starting right now.

• 1:45:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think that, uh, yeah, I think, I think probably.

• 1:45:33Bill Simmons?

  Minnesota missed their game three was they, if they could have beaten San Antonio in game three, with Wemby having a game like that, they just couldn't hit a shot. Michael McDaniel's was like five for 22, like nothing was going in. Randall was bad. All right, Burna, we can listen to you on the mismatch.

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:45:50Bill Simmons?

  I'm excited to hear where you finally, where, so you've landed on.

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  I have.

• 1:45:54Bill Simmons?

  Caleb, it's out.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I'm not la, I'm not.

• 1:45:56Bill Simmons?

  So you made us pick and then you didn't even do a lean.

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  He needs to milk it. He's got six weeks.

• 1:46:03Speaker 06

  If you put, if you put my head on a guarantee today, I'd tell you they'd take Boozer. But I want to watch this whole thing play out.

• 1:46:09Bill Simmons?

  I'm a lean toward, uh, I'm a lean toward Caleb Wilson.

• 1:46:13Speaker 06

  But I may prefer Wilson by the time it all comes around.

• 1:46:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I'm ready to change my mind.

• 1:46:18Speaker 06

  It's gonna be a fun six weeks.

• 1:46:19Bill Simmons?

  And would you rather have House take the Bance or would you rather have him move back a spot and flip picks with Utah and grab some stuff?

• 1:46:25Speaker 06

  Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, do not do this. No, you get AJ DeBance.

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:46:32Speaker 06

  The first time I heard about AJ DeBance, that he was 13. And the guy told, called me and said, I just saw the next one. And I've had that, I'm telling you.

• 1:46:42Bill Simmons?

  Wow, house.

• 1:46:43Speaker 01

  There's people with the legend of Peterson. The legend of Peterson also is out there.

• 1:46:48Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  I mean, they know that, Burna.

• 1:46:49Speaker 06

  The Bance, the, the Bance is gonna be a major, major star. A ma, you cannot pass on it, bro.

• 1:46:56Bill Simmons?

  Star in 22 games of Anthony Davis before he gets hurt. It's gonna be amazing, house.

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  He's on the trade block. We're gonna be.

• 1:47:03Speaker 06

  You guys see that thing going around about how the way to get the number one pick is to trade for Anthony Davis?

• 1:47:10Bill Simmons?

  It's the last two.

• 1:47:11Speaker 06

  Three times.

• 1:47:13Bill Simmons?

  What was the third time? It was Dallas did it?

• 1:47:16Speaker 06

  Pelicans, right? Or no, no, no, no.

• 1:47:18Bill Simmons?

  They, they traded him though.

• 1:47:21Speaker 06

  Wait, wait, wait, wait.

• 1:47:22Bill Simmons?

  Or they, they hadn't traded him yet.

• 1:47:24Speaker 06

  You do trade him.

• 1:47:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you have to trade him, I think. It's like, it follows like the horror movie. All right. Thanks to Burna. Thanks to Joe House. Technical difficulties.

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  We made it though. We made it work.

• 1:47:35Bill Simmons?

  Thanks to our guy, Tate Frazier. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. New rewatch must come tomorrow. Tropic Thunder. Exciting stuff. Congrats to these two guys. The first, the third picks in the NBA lottery. And we'll see you next Sunday night on Netflix.

• 1:47:55Bill Simmons?

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• 1:48:38Bill Simmons?

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• 1:49:23Bill Simmons?

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